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everyone back to the Pekanana Show. Thomas is back and
I think this is the I'm going to conclude Gladio today, Right,
it's long time coming.
Speaker 2: You're muted. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm just call up my outline.
He real quick, No problem, Yeah no, I think oh yeah,
here we go. I already got it up. Yeah, Like
I said, man, I'm just to advise the viewers and
subs like I don't. I don't feel great, so like,
forgive me if I repeat myself, for like lose my place.
But I think we're I think we're good something I
want to get into today, and like I will as
we get into the topic. Gladio created an interesting ideological
culture that is relevant to like what we do today.
It's not it's not just a strange footnote of history.
It's not just something that gives rise to conspiratorial narratives.
It's not just you know, this kind of artifact of
Cold War grand strategy and military planning and and you know,
related specifically to the nuances of political warfare and and
all of that. You know. And like I said, I
don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but you know,
ground zero for Gladio is really Italy, okay, and Italy
Italy absolutely lost the war, like like all of Europe.
Did you know the Vatican was hitting incredibly hard, like
figurely and literally you know, like Vatigan two was basically
like like the the the Catholic leadership hierarchy re uh
reinventing itself to to be agreeable to you know, to
American hegem and like and like that in the Nurmer
World War, okay, and the rest of Italy, Italy was
was a key. I mean Italy was like the fifth
largest economy I think the into the seventies on this planet.
And Italy, uh, Italy and the Benelux countries they were
they were they were like NATO's literal flanks, okay, I
mean obviously like the the Budis Republic, you know, the U.
S Army, you know, especifically the armored kV and field artillery,
the British Army on the North German plane, they they
were they were the share punk uh of like the
main line of resistance in the German border. But the
Italian Army you know, in the south and the Benelux
uh military elements on then in the north they were
just as essential. So there was this weird situation with
the Italy because it wasn't occupied like the Buddhist Republic was.
It was part of NATO. But there was also this
like overtly fascist culture that was still active there, like
they were sending people to parliament, you know, they and
it just kind of had to be tolerated because it's like,
what are you gonna do. It's like they had they
had a pro they had a Cold War. Your government,
they had like a permanent incumbency, you know, they were
they hated the Communists. They were like one hundred and
ten percent bying the Cold War. It was kind of
like something that it was kind of something like Washington
had to tolerate. So but of course they decided to
kind of like try and purpose that towards Cold War
ends on the political side, not just the military side.
And that was like the Cora of Gladio. You know,
there's there's obviously Gladio elements in in the Benelux countries,
like in France as well, even though France wasn't you know,
part of the formal natal structure, there was a there
were there were Gladial elements of a sort like in
in the Buddhist Republic. Oh, that was like a tricky thing,
you know, and it was it was weirdly handled. But Italy,
like the core of these guys was Italy. And also
you know, like the Italians, the Italian Seven, they contribute
like an outsized in an outsized way to European cultural things.
And like we've talked about, you know, like I mean
going back to the to the inner warriors, you know,
like Mussolanie's March on Rome. That was a huge development,
you know. Uh, it was this right wing revolutionary tendency
that was basically like returning the serve like inever the
bullster of revolution and weird when scene to Americans like
art and like artistic endeavors and esthetical things, that has
this that has like an outsized cachet in Europe like
to this day, like you wouldn't think of America of
some painter or even like a novelist or a filmmaker,
like you wouldn't think of You wouldn't think of him
like putting something in the stream a cultural commerce and
it like a movement developing around it or coming to
like symbolize some kind of movement. But in Italy that's
very much the case. It wasn't it is, you know,
and the Cold War was no exception. So you had
these guys in Italy running around Hukastane kind of like
a Cora Gladio and like some of them are very compromised.
They were basically like NATO agents and that's like just
what they were, and they didn't really give a fuck
like about what your knowing ideology was beyond you know,
Cold war imperatives. But you also had these guys who
were you know, who are basically like attes At Julius
eve Law or who in the early days had you know,
fought in the Italian army like with the Axis, or
you know, they were guys who came to Gladio because
they were agitating against communists, you know, or they were
or immigrants or you know, whatever their kind of core
issues were, and they got swept up you know by
like uh Italian carbonaria or or political police. And I'm like, okay,
look like why do you make your so useful, like
this is what you're wanting to do? You know? So
that that's that's kind of like the that that that's
kind of that was kind of like the situation on
the Italian street, you know, particularly in Rome, but kind
of like all over the country. And I can't remember
I got into this or not I refreshed my recollection,
but I if I'm repeating myself, call me on it.
But what kind of brought Gladio to people's awareness? I'm
talking in terms of like the general public was uh
was the Patiano massacre I can't remember we got into
this last time or not, but basically on May thirty, first,
seventy two, there was was characterized as a neo fascist
terror attack. There's an anonymous call uh place to this Carbonary
barracks in a suburb of uh Cigadadel and the caller said,
you know, hey, check this car, Check this abandoned car.
You know it's it's an ied And when they did,
and like it exploded as like they were trying to
investigate it, and it killed these three cops. The perpetrators
or the guys who got brought up who got stuck
with the charges on grounds of it. They were, uh,
this guy named Vincenzo and Seguera, Carlo Stini and this
guy Ivano Bucket Chino and all these guys remembers of
this of this group called New Order, the the the
official name is the New Order of Scholarship Center. It
was basically like a think tank and it wasn't a
political party. It was kind of like ling that ben
LA was like uh Greece g R E c E
or Grace, you know it was. It basically was what
it appeared to be. It was like a research group,
you know, and when when you know what where they
who was funding them and where they were getting money
from wasn't exactly clear, but there was a lot of that.
There's a lot of there's a lot of like money
going into it. And the Italian Social Movement, which was
a mainstream political party despite they could they considered and
consider themselves to to be the direct descendance of the
National Fanscist Party and they kind of are like, it's
not cap but the New Order Scholarship Center they came
about based on like a schizm in the Italian Social Movement,
which is interesting, like as as the Italian Social Movement
kind of approached mainstream respectability and like the Eisenhower era,
which happened to like a lot of like right wing
parties in Europe and during that era too, I mean
that was one like Francis Yaqui was like writing speeches
for Joseph McCarthy, Like very unusual stuff was going on
due to you know what amounts so like an enduring emergency.
You know, this is the era like the Berlin crises
and things. You know, people are convinced that coldor is
gonna be hi hot become hot. This was also in
a bunch of guys with real trigger time, you know,
like basically the entire first SS, like leap stand Art,
they were rotting in prison. Septietrich had a life sentence,
Yak and Piper at the death kind of lead. A
bunch of these guys got released during this era, like
not because NATO wanted to be nice, and not not
because Washington decided they wanted to roll back the present
they've established at Narberg. But they're like, you know, we're
we're we're almost certainly going to fight World War three imminently,
and we need we you know, we need officers and
n c o s have actually fought the Ivans, and
we can't be going around arresting people for being right
wing and that's not gonna work. So kind of the
mainstream of the Italian social movement are Turo Mischellini, who
was like their hancho, Like he was basically a moderate
for the time. He was like a right wing moderate.
He uh, he wanted to click up with the Christian Democrats,
with the monarchists, you know, basically he wanted to join
kind of like the mainstream coalition of like center right parties,
and these guys, uh like Buggatcino and like Vincigatta and
like Sicutini. They were like like that's not happening, like
they're for bears. I don't think they were involved at
that time, but you know these there was these schismatic
guys you know who were who were uh, who are
very much like Evold and Ancolytes, and they're like that's bullshit,
like you're not You're not gonna turn us into some
like some like regime approved like like part of the
parliamentary apparatus. You know. So these guys found a new order, okay,
and there was a U and this guy this is
kind of formalize the nineteen fifty six there was this
big meeting in Melan that was the Italian social moment
in Congress and this guy, Pino Rowdy, who was the
he was he was like kind of the representative what
became like new order. He basically stood up and said,
like you know that you're you're disgracing the honor like
the man who died like fighting the Americans and the Communists.
You know, how dare you? You know you're trying to
hijack us. You know this this is this is Jewish
you know. Fuck you basically, so like that was that
So these New Order guys were kind of like and
everybody shit list anyway, Like I'm not saying they didn't
plant as Bob. Maybe they did or maybe they didn't,
but it served multiple purposes to claim these guys did
it even if they did not. And I love Italians
and Italy. I'm not saying bad things about those a people,
but Italian justice is not exactly rigorous or going to
do process, you know, especially.
Speaker 1: During that If you don't like the Italian government, wait
five years, they'll get a new one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that too, But that's that's kind of the context
and other other right wing movements in Europe, and this
is a very different circumstance. It wasn't like now there
you know, like I'm always talking about these these literally
mentally retarded people who like show for Zelensky and stuff
because they're like too stupid to be alive. But some
of the are they're like they're like brainy, being a
meba or something. But but in those you know, like
that nowadays, there there's there's literally like the regime, there's globalism,
and then there's people resisting it. You know, whether there's
Salathis who are not good guys or our friends, whether they're
in Iran, whether they're in Russia, who are our friends,
whether they're you know. But but I mean in the
Cold War, there's all these bizarre intrigues and everything was
characterized by Cold War dynamics and phenomenon. So like even
if you didn't want to take a side, you had
to insinuate sinsinuate yourself somehow into that paradigm, like otherwise
you were just pissing into the wind, you know. So
and plus two you could play people off against each other,
you know, like if you know, in in the fifties
and sixties and then post it's hot, you know, in
the nineteen eighties. I mean basically, if you were approached,
if you were if you were a partisan, and whether
you're in Italy or the or the Benelux countries or
the UK, and you've got actual bodies on in the street,
you could approach by some intelligence guy or some NATO type. Yeah,
I mean you can basically take turns to him. You know,
you want to start behaving myself. You want me to
commit to doing something when you need to fight the communists,
you would have give me a lot of money or
a lot of small arms and ammo or like a
lot of drugs I can sell or something, you know,
And there was a limits to this obviously, but you know,
it was a rarefied circumstance, you know, a new order.
Also there's stuff with disseminated throughout Europe and in those
good days, you know, fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, you know,
print media was the only thing, was the only game
in town, you know, so and what you could find,
especially especially based on the censorship censorship regime, not just
in the Buddhist Republic, but in the UK and other places,
you know, you had to take like you had to
get what could be smuggled in. You know, sometimes it
be in English, sometimes it wouldn't. Sometimes it'd be like
an English translation that was imprecise. But a whole lot
of this material relevant to the Right, relative to the
old resistance in Europe, what's coming out of Italy. And
you know nor Ord's publications they very much valorized the
Third Right and the Kingdom of Italy. And there were
dead you know, in the independent State of Croatia, and
like all the excess powers, they also they had links
with the boor of Republic in Rhodesia also, like they
had strong support there. You know. It was very anti modernist.
It was very strassor right, you know. And despite what
people think Strasser had, uh, he had he had a
he had a very nuanced view of things. I don't
agree with this perspective. But it wasn't just oh he
was a socialist, but he also didn't like Zionism. It's
there was nothing like that, and he was not was Soviet.
He said that, you know, Europe has to fight some
kind of concord with Moscow no matter what the government
is there, and that's the way forward. But he basically
the reason why the standard of the Black Front it
was the hammer and sword. It wasn't just because it
looks cool. You know, he's the stress or, the stress or.
His whole point was we've got to return to like
medieval origins. That's you know, not not in some ridiculous
way or or not in some luodite way. But he's like,
you know, this, this devolved, localized governmental structure is what's
natural to Europe. You know, yes, we need a national government,
but it's got to be totally federated and not just
the name only, you know, like they like down to
down like the township level, like they basically wanted like
local sovereignty and for matters that you know impact you know,
like the folk community or like war in peace questioned
the base of security, like that's that's what the national
community ossifies as one. But otherwise, you know, it's it exists,
and it's totally like organic, kind of like spontaneous in
the weald capacity. And that's basically what the third position
was up on during the entire Cold War. And the
third position as we think of it, it does not
exist anymore. You know. John Bowden made that point two.
So if you're like, oh, I'm a third positionist, well
that doesn't make any sense in America anyway, because there
is no American third position. Okay, there was like a
there there was there was a there was a taffy
and right wing position that was America first, we shouldn't
be fighting the Cold War. But that's something totally different.
And in the twentyth century, there's just not a third
a third position anywhere because there's not there's not the
binary paradigm. There's globalism and everybody opposing it. That's it.
And those people opposing it, they have different motives for
opposing it, some of which are some of which you know,
are like rhyme with one another, some which don't at all.
But there's but but there's not two positions. There's one
position and there's the resistance. This is actually important. It's
not just something that academic types and people like me
are into or relate to pot you know, contemplate and pontificate.
Speaker 1: That well people, but people may I think sometimes people
think that you say stuff like that just to just
to upset them, because it upsets them. They you know,
they think they're a third positionist and they under yeah,
in what way?
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like talking about being right wing or
left wing and you're talking about the early you know,
twentieth century. In Europe. It's not the same thing as
in Europe as it is in the United States. There's
a lot more nuance there.
Speaker 2: Well, there's also the same guys who think that they like,
they think that they think that they're right wing if
they agree on foreign policy with Chuck Schumer, Ben Nettniya,
who Joe Biden in Nancy Pelosi, it's like, I don't
care if you don't like the Russians. If you're ethnically
cleansing Slavic people on orders of a Zionists for the
purpose of dismantling Ukraine and Russia as discreete ethnocultural entities,
you're not right wing. You're some kind of fuck head
who's killing people for the globalist regime. Like the fact
you wear like a little swastigardless and a black metal
or because you're like some like Brony Satanists doesn't make
you right wing. It just makes you a fucking idiot.
You know. Like if I if I like rob a
liquor store when I'm high on crack and say, you know,
God Save the King, that doesn't make me a monarchist.
It makes me a crackhead who robs liquor stores and
says weird things. You know. It's kind of the same thing. Man,
Like if Nambula started like wearing swastigus nimblesics to fucking beast,
They'm gonna go like, fucking kid because it's like beast
like they literally would be like that, you know. But
that's a different I don't want to ran about that
and get my blood pressure up. But the uh, but
you know, yeah I did. I mean, but that that
was basically like the situation in Italy and again like
uh the DA massacre, these these Carbonariti like that that
these guys probably I don't think I wanted to kill
the police, but I think they definitely like were like
guilty of the crying charge despite whatever propaganda might have
been milked out of it by by the Italian government.
Because these guys are these guys are serious. Like the
New Order guys, they jumped the gun a little bit.
A lot of them didn't have practical experience as partisans
like the like the Growth Army fraction did you know,
they weren't properly trained in that stuff, but you know
they were series. They were like willing to engage in
direct action. But as time went on, they kind of
they became something of an elite uh organization. You know,
they very they gave, they gate kept very hard. They
always helped themselves out as a vanguard as tendency. You know,
as time went on there there kind of cause paramilitary
aspect became more uh like a high speed and and incredible.
You know, at peak they had about ten thousand members
and these guys, uh, this is only campaign for nuclear
disarmament was a big thing in Europe, which it selves
like a cover not just for like you know, uh
like like Soviet and wasn't like money was coming into
fund this stuff, but it's also a cover for like
real radicals you know, and and and communists and anarchists
of varied stripes like no order. They they go out
and like kick the ship out of these guys when
they'd have like protests and these like mass demonstrations, you know.
So that that caused the Garment in Rome to kind
of like raise a cyber and be like, okay, like
let's not just like smash these guys. And then I
think that had a lot to do with them kind
of being the core of Gladio beyond like what I
already suggested, what was just owing to the peculiar conditions
of Italy and and and nuances they're in. But it's like, Okay,
these guys, these guys will get dirty, Okay, you know
that they're not afraid to do that. And they they
seem to be thirsty for action, you know, so they're
not We can be advised, especially if we if we
send some special operations for USS types to kind of
bring them up the speed. These guys will probably be
like looking forward to some kind of Soviet assault where
they can go out and and and play cowboys and Indians.
It's kind of like a perfect storm of stuff. But uh,
later on that substantial uh just stancil percentage of these
guys like rejoined uh the Italian social movement, but that
there remained kind of like I think some of that too.
It was them like hemorrhaging off people who like weren't
really up to the task of doing extra legal stuff.
It's complicated, but there's a lot of historians, and not
just mainstream historians, but like you know, uh, like vanguardist
types like us, we like read this as like, oh,
there was a second schism. I don't think that's true.
But that's kind of complicated. I in the time we
got left, I don't want to I don't want to
go on that tanded deeply. But the uh and not coincidentally,
the New Order's motto was our honor is called loyalty.
I'm not gonna try and pronounce the Italian very to that,
but obviously that's you know, yeah, has Troy. My loyalty
is my honor, which is the SS model. The symbol
of the organization was a double headed axe, you know,
like meaning like we look both right and left, but
you know, the ross the folk community is the center,
and like we represent that as a vanguard, you know,
and we fight both elements from within when they threaten us,
but we will act as like the shpare punk of
either if it advances, you know, the interests of the
folk community. An important side note to this is what
became of the British National Front, which today and I
I can't say for sure what the state of the
London Street is or anything. I read the Nation and
so if our English and Ulster friends and Scottish friends,
if I'm wrong about this, please weigh in and don't
be offended. But I don't think I'm wrong. I think
the National Front the British National Fraud, not to be
confused with the French organization, which is a lot more
mainstream and regime approved. The I think the National Front
these days is basically a website, okay, or like a
social media It's got some social media presence, but like
even they're like nobody not even there's probably like a
couple hundred people who fuck with it and don't care
about it, but it was a big deal in the
seventies and eighties. They're the fourth largest party. They're they're
the largest party after the Live Dems in the UK
for a minute, Okay. They were founded by A. K.
Chesterton who had been who've been affiliated with Mosley. He
came from AH. He came from the League of Empire
Loyalists and the first British National Party and he was
related to uh. He was related to G. K. Chesterton.
He'd been born in South Africa. During the Second Bold War,
his family fled back to the UK. But it uh,
this was uh. This was during the time when Enna
Powell was really kind of carving out like a dissident
tendancy in the UK too. But the National Front it
really got cloud when John Tindall kind of came to
the helm And Tindall was an interesting guy. I highly
recommend his autobiography. It's really it's good stuff. But you
know Tindall, Uh, Kendall's big thing was, you know, stop
non white immigration, and he campaigned on a plant from
a repatriot these people now, which absolutely would have been
possible at that time. That wasn't he wasn't just like
talking shit like we're gonna build a wool and it's
gonna stop all these Mexicans because it's a wall. It
was like nothing like that. It was like you could
do this because the political will was there, you know.
And uh, this is when things were totally going to
hell in Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland is relevant to
this gladier with third position thing two. I'm not just
on a crazy tangent, but Tindall was basically like a
main He was a pretty mainstream, like white nationalist, empire
loyalist type guy. He's like, why we push the footing
with the IRA, Fuck these people smash them? Why are
we getting flooded with these Third world immigrants? Like why,
you know, why how come? You know? Why? Why why
are the Tories like talking a lot of shit? But
we're basically getting state socialism and and and we're not
you know, we're we're not even a competitive economy anymore.
But something started happening within the National Front and the
NF two. They'd have these mass rallies in London and
you know, in uh, in Liverpool and in Belfast, although
it hit Belfast a bit later. And I'm getting ahead
of myself. But the guys who came to constitute the
West Belfast Brigade, like Sea Company of the West Belfast
Brigade of the UDA. Johnny Adare who was who was
an infamous guy and not an admirable guy, very much
a gangster. He was a National Front skinhead and he
was in the Rock against Communism scene, and soare all
his friends. And these guys became c company, okay, and
like they were all about the National Front. So on
the one hand, like Comedy eighteen and these guys other
than other than the mid Elster UVF, which became the
LVF under Billy Ri's rain. You know, people say like,
well that was an outlier or like the far right
and loyalists don't have the common ground. That's not really true, okay, Like,
but we'll get into that in a minute. And this
totally real as to the third position of schismatic schismatics
in Italy, which in turn impacted the National Front, which
in turn found an audience in Ulster specifically belf Bass.
But what happened in the National Front was the schism
happened between what was called the Political Soldier faction and
what was the Flag Group because the National Front zine
or newsletter was the Flag. Okay, But essentially Tendall leaves
a National Front and identity too and he forms the
British National Party, which in turn became the BNP of
the nineties, where Nick Griffin was at the helm, which
is understand because Griffin was part of the political soldier faction.
But the uh, the National Front split during the during
this time appropising when Tindall left, okay, and the Official
National Front, which was the political soldier faction, they started
they started associating with this guy, Roberto Fiori, but I
believe Griffin actually lived with for a time, not in
some weird way, but like they live into like the
same rooming house or a bunch of like right wing guys.
It was more like their hques basically. But the Official
National Front or the Political Soldier faction, they basically are like,
why why are we worried about preserving the monarchy? Like
why are we worried about trying to bring the UK
back to you know as it existed between you know,
like the reign of you know, the minute of the
Prime minsership at Disraeli and you know through like Edwardian
days to you know basically probably like when Ramsey McDonald
the game PM, It's like, why is that like our model?
You know, He's like, we got to start looking at
ourselves as as uh as politable soldiers. You know, Uh,
we got to start viewing uh, you know, America and
his client regime in London as our enemy just as
much as the Communists are. They started uh making overtures
to Kadafi because Kadafi would would uh, he'd support elements
that he thought would advance the goals that you know,
Kadafi was very much Warsaw packed adjacent, like ten percent,
but he was an unusual guy and like my friend
Big D, like in you know, the first time I
cut con it whatever, mean it was no Rouken and
he was talking. You know, he got swept up in
the indictments when when Jeff Fort you know, was and
the Rukens were taking min from Kadafi was fourth then
talk and spent on dope to put on the street,
and Kadafi's like, fuck, this guy put a hit on them.
But you know, like Big D said, he's like the
a lot of the rooken leadership was all about that.
But so we're like these third position as guys in Europe, okay.
And and of course the uh like the Flag group,
you know, they they were like, this is bullshit. You know,
you don't you don't you don't associate with non whites.
We're not radicals, you know, all of that. Okay. But
as the National Front was doing that, the uh you know,
and and this kind of stress to right stuff was
was being like widely disseminated at least within like right
wing circles, you know. At this time, like in nineteen
eighty six, when the two wings that party formally split,
it was probably about they probably about like five thousand
like like hardcore members like paid dues and they're like
like on record and all of that stuff, and about uh,
probably about three thousand of them like like stay with
like the mainstream National Front, but two thousand like clicked
up with you know, like the political Soldier like official
National Front political Soldier wing. But they had you know
in the UK only here, like if you got a
form of player, if your record is a political party,
like you pay dues, you know, it's like a membership
organization and you've got supporters who aren't at all involved
in like the membership side of things. So despite like
what seems like paltry numbers for like a protest party,
that's actually pretty good for the time. And like I said,
these guys could, these guys could get a crowd in
the streets in London, particularly if they were you know,
if they were if they were clashing you know with
the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament types or or or like
radical left types, because like people didn't like those type,
you know, they just didn't, you know, I mean, end
of this day, I think of the man in this
I realized London has changed dramatically since then and since
I was there in the late nineties. But I'm sure
it's kind of like Shytown. There's there is kind of
like above the silent majority type element that gets mad
when they see that stuff. And a lot of these
non white people, whether they should be there or not,
it's a different question, but a lot of them don't
like that shit either. But you know, so plus do
like the National Front, even it's early iteration. You know,
under Tyndall, it did stand, it did contest, it did
contest elections, but it viewed itself as a vanguardist tendancy
when it did. Uh that change really after Tyndall left,
they decided they wanted to become almost like a mainstream
party in some ways, you know, and like a mass
membership organization. This is one of the reasons for the
skis of my belief because for something like for an
organization like that, like that's fatal to it. You know,
it's not. It's not just that you've got to adopt
a vanguard is posture. If you're in the United States
or the UK or or the EU these days, like
in those days, even when there's kind of more room
to participate in formal processes, you you couldn't you couldn't
just try and like reinvent yourself as kind of like
the dissident Tories or something like or it. It wouldn't
like just just by like sheer value, you would be
diluted and the into becoming an effectual like regardless of
the fact that you know, there's not there's not real
social capital between an organization putting people in an organization
like a million members or something. But any event, and
that that was a big thing the political soldier faction
they refuse to stay in for contest elections, but bringing
it to him, bringing it to bring it to the
to the Northern Ireland situation and kind of how Gladio,
which in turn kind of creave rise the third position,
which in turn impact like an active conflict on the
ground and weighs unforeseen. This guy named Andy Tierry, he
was born in Belfast. You know, it's a poor family.
He sounded like an x x ex British Army soldier.
He grew up in the loyalist heartland on Shango Road,
and his family and many others he had like uh
moved to bally Murphy and then New Barnsley, like when
his dad needed work, like you know, because among other
things in the late sixties it was like a huge
recession you know across the UK, but I mean Belfast
was especially hit hard. And when the troubles kept off
in sixty nine, the family, uh, they got ethnically cleansed,
like they're they got attacked, so they go back to
the share go. Tierry is an ancient Scottish name, so
I'm sure like the Tierries are on the shit list
of the of the provos anybody else like when it
first jumped off yet is his roots could be traced
to the early days of the ulcer plantations. I mean
this this guy had like loyalism in his DNA. Okay,
I'm not saying that's good or bad. That's a fact,
Like it's just a fact. But so Tierry clicks up
with the He first clicks up with the UVF, and
they liked him because he was serious and tough and
he was literally from the Shango Road and his family
had been attacked by out of the provos or adjacent vigilantes.
But Tierry looks at the UVF and he's like, you know,
these guys are like the UVF sole notion first of all.
I mean, you know, it was this the second iteration,
which came about in sixty five and in which Tiri joined.
They were very, very selective. They looked at themselves this
direct action element whose job it was to kill the IRA. Like, yes,
they dropped a lot of civilian bodies too, just to
terrorize people. But their idea was, we're not a mass
membership organization. We're not a vigilante grouping. You know, we're
an elite element. We're a counter terrorist element. You know,
we attacked the provos and we killed them. You know,
Tiri's old thing is like, look like my family, but
my family got murked and like kicked out of our home.
You know, we we need somebody to protect Protestant areas
from this kind of thing. Yes, you say, you know what,
that's not what we do. So Tiri joins the UDA. Well,
first he joined the Shankhilt Defense Association, And there was
a bunch of quote defense associations that got set up
in and Protestant hoods, especially in interface areas. And basically
they'd organized on like quasi military lines, you know, and
like vigilantism, whether it's here in the American South and
whether it's an Ulster, that's just like what we do,
you know, that's just what that's what Ulster Scott to do. Okay.
As the as these defense organizations like started street fighting
with their Catholic neighbors and and with the provos and
and with other elements, they start getting coalesced into a
single U element which became the Ulster Defense Association, which
at peak I think had about fifty thousand members. And
UDA's notion they weren't outlawed until nineteen ninety two because
they incorporated above board and they said we're a defense
organization and like an event Dublin intervenes. We're gonna go
to the rifle and we're gonna attack or an event,
you know, we get sold out by London, we're gonna fight.
You know. That was their whole deal. And UFF was
the current name for the direct action element, which was
Ulster Freedom Fighters. Okay, those are their shooters, that's what
they called themselves. And they claimed that they weren't the
same organization. And a lot of people on the provo
side as well as just kind of observers, are critical
of how this whole thing was handled by the Crown.
They say like, well, you know, UFF was very much
like in part of Crown proxy and that's why they've
just let it do whach thing. That's not the old
it's it's more murky than that. Okay. But Tierry, he
he developed a reputation for two things. He was a
guy who kind of raised hell within the organization for
like strongly heterodox ideas, and he was he was very,
very tough, so like the men respected him, even though
he thought that he was kind of spinning off into
crazy territory. I said, with all respect, that's just a fact.
He Erry's kind of the zenith of this tendency in
May nineteen seventy four there was the Ulster Workers Council
strike and Tierry knew a bunch of these guys and
like the in the Belfast and Ulster wide labor movement
because he'd been like a shop steward like back in
his days, as like a factory laborer, you know, so
he was he was somewhat close to this guy Glenn Barr,
who was the strike leaders like the UDA in those
days they had like a very socialist bank you know,
and like the and like the the worst council strike
like basically like shut down Belfast. This was still when
you know, like the UK was an economy relying on
national industry. There's like really really food barred things. So
Tierry got this reputation is like this kind of like
labor leader and like hero of the working man like
which he was. I wasn't cap he was those things,
but he also was like this like rabid loyalist. So
they like raised the UD's profile because like people theretofore,
it been like these guys are just like a much
of like yaku vigilantes and killers and like sectarian wacos.
They're like, huh, maybe these guys are like actually like
serious people or and whether we like them or not,
they're gonna have like a serious impact on how the
crisis resolves in Northern Ireland. But Tierry he was a
big strass arrist. He was like reading the kind of
content that like the New Order was putting out. He
was like reading like political soldier stuff that the National
Front was putting out. He took out. He started putting
out essays and like the UDA uh magazine about all
we got to push for an independent Ulster like Ian
Paisley's a bastard, Like fuck these politicians who are trying
to like piggyback on the fact we're fighting the war.
You know. Tierry famously banned like Ian Paisley from like
this one UDA meeting, Like he physically is like you
like pushed him bags, like get the fuck out of here.
And that made a bunch of people really upset. They're like,
you can't do that. He's not gonna do what the
fucking want. You know, what are you gonna do about it?
You know? So maybe he had more balls and good
sense in some ways. But point being, this is like
when the third position like came to Ulster, which at
that point was like a peak conflict cycle. Okay, so
that's kind of when and people started like connecting the dots.
I don't like mean like you know, like the man
in the street. I mean it's like academic types and
these military sociologists and these guys were very much kind
of on the public affairs and psychological warfare side of
special operations. They're like, what's happening here, Like maybe this
isn't like a great thing that this third physition stuff
is like spinning off from what was a very manageable
and constructive you know, mission profile and Gladio. And I
believe that was the earliest stuff that's super critical of Gladio.
It kind of got it kind of went into circulation
again during during uh the uh the premiership of of
h who's the Italian guy who who likes the ladies
and died his there and Sconi, Yeah yeah, he bro
Leasconi was part of this weird like quasi Mason lodge
that people added like a bunch of these guys and
like they're like two thousand, like oh, that's that's part
of Gladio. So these kind of info wars type guys
and like other kind of people like that they started
strikling Aubot like Gladiol Like it's just like this big
conspiracy like not, and like a lot of the content
they were dropping had come about in like the later
seventies as people were kind of like saying, like Gladio
is a is a terrorist tendency and here's why I
like what's happening in Belfast. You know, look at these
cops who got blown up in Italy, Like look at
all these bad guys who are you know, they're fascists.
They they they got crazy ideas. They're sitting around reading
reading stressorus propaganda. That's kind of like what brought it
into and kind of into the into the conscious mind
of some of these people. And this is this is
actually important. You know, it's not I realized I got
like a strong research interest and things and like not
in Ireland. But that that that uh, that may that
it's significant what we're talking about. And you know, like
I said too like as it later on, Yeah, after
Thierry was killed, you know this kind of third force
in loyalist paramilitarism or third way rather third position in
paramilitarism that kind of endured man. And like I said,
like I put Billy right in the camp even though
conditions were different by the time he became powerful on
the on the street. And uh, but this guy, uh
Tierre's buddy was this guy named Sammy Duddy. And uh
one of the there's a there's an there's a there's
a conflict resolution outreach center in Belfast like name from Duddy,
which is interesting. But he was a guy. He's a
guy with reputation, is like a thinker in the U
d A. And a lot of these U d A
guys are very committed to their politics, but a lot
of them are kind of like brawlers and like roughnecks
and and and like action oriented guys. They were the
kinds of guys were prone to, like like discussing political
theory with you, you know, but you know, uh Tiri
and uh Duddy absolutely worth those kinds of guys as
well as being you know, very very very hard dudes.
But that the uh Tiry. Uh he was one of
the guys who found to quote the new Ulster political
Research group. They they they became famous or within conflict
stuff the circles because they published this paper called uh
Beyond the Beyond the Religious Divide and it reiterated the
call for an independent Ulster or at least like it
devolved a truly devolved, uh colitical structure to be implemented,
and finding some way to make peace with the provos
and some sort of like organic capacity which was really
which was really which was really interesting, I think, but
that uh you know, he this is this this really
if you look at people want to know about, like
what the real world impact was of Gladio and whatnot.
Like that's I mean, beyond the fact there's a series
of insane murders in Belgium that people think was Gladio adjacent.
I don't think that's the case. We get talk about
that in another I've i think playing with the idea
of doing some content unlike the big like conspiracy theories,
like the things that always the ones that always think
are worth addressing, you know, and and aren't just like stupid.
But that would be the time to take up something
like that. But that's that's basically what I have on Gladio, man.
And then like it's just like as an addendum or
an epilogue, you know this people gotta understand too, you know,
the original mandate of special operations forces. It wasn't to
train Navy seals to be like direct action super commandos
you know who who deployed the landlocked countries and get
on target of individual guys who are thought to be
you know, teleban operatives and like penetrate our targets and
then kill them. That's like not what they were for,
like special operations forces. As Kennedy envisioned it as a
William Odom who was very much big army, but as
he you know, he had he was he was instrumental
in native war planning. The way he envisioned in their
role in the force structure, it was when Warsaw Pact
overruns us, we're gonna we're gonna parachute or glide in.
You guys who look like the people in theater and
talk their language are gonna click up with these gladiol
guys on the ground and you're gonna train them on
how to do things operationally, and you're gonna lead them,
and you're basically gonna play Red Dawn in occupied West
Germany or in Italy. Like that was the idea. You know,
it took time for this is gonna develop into a
mainstream idea and like by the late eighties, like yeah,
that everybody took it for granted. But this was viewed
as weird and crazy and dangerous and shady pretty much
by everybody. And that's one of the reason it's greens
like nowadays, like the spare punked of the of the
Army of Special Operations Forces until the nineties, people like
the green berets as you're a weirdo, you like killing people,
you're probably a fascist, and you're creepy, and you will
never get promoted above like colonel probably. That's that's not
just like something in Rambo movies. That was like the
way it was okay, and it wasn't clear like how
in a general war this would actually develop, because it
never you never know when you have a novel concept,
don't get me wrong, Like this, this idea respecial offers
forces was absolutely correct. That was a very forward looking
idea and it was a very ballsy idea, and it
was absolutely the way uh, you know, Army Command Europe
should have been looking at things. But uh, it was
not something that people felt comfortable with. And of course
there was a concern too, like what if these guys
like go native, which was entirely possible, okay, But that's
that's where a lot of this kind of strange uh
stuff came from in terms of cap about Gladio of
being this conspiracy. I mean, part of was this typical,
typical lefty stuff about oh, the government is actually fascist
and doing all these bad things, like the government is
terrible things. But it's not because they're like secret fascists
or something, obviously, but the a lot of the concern
about this kind of stuff, that's where it came from.
But it did despite the fact that you know, World
War three and never came there was a direct impact
on the politics of Europe and even in conflict zones
like Northern Ireland, and and those guys who constituted that
the core of these tendencies that came up with Gladio,
we they are part of what we are. I mean,
if you if you're somebody who you know is finds
common cause with me. I mean I'm not I'm not
speaking for anybody else, you know when I say we,
But you know, so that's you've got to know. You've
got to know your own heritage, not just you know, uh,
in terms of ethnos and and and your familiar lore
and your your your race and nationality, like you've got
to know, like where are these ideas that you commit
to or come from? And that's part of it. I
hope that wasn't to scattershot, like I said, I don't know.
I think we can wrap up now because I don't
frankly have much else and I'm not feeling good, so
forgive me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not a problem. I have two questions. Yeah, One,
were you thinking of Mark du Treu when you talked
about the serial killer?
Speaker 2: He's he's another one who's also affiliated with that. No,
it's these guys in Belgium. They pulled these high incident
robberies where they'd store them like a grocery store or
something like, not even like a tournament made set. They'd say,
this is a robbery. Empty your pockets. Then they take
like the manager and make them open the safe and
they take like like like you quote him, like three
hundred dollars or something. Then they'd kill everybody and witnesses
that'd see them like loading into this van. And it
was guys with like glocks and h and k's and
stare like like military weapons, like wearing gloves, who were
like in shape, and it's like these guys are killing
like five, they're catching murder liability for five bodies to
steal like a few hundred dollars. And they did this
like six or seven times, like they were never identified.
But guys doing that kind of stuff like god like
like three to six guys and show up in like
military gear with like balaklavas or ski masks. This is
a robbery. No one's gonna get hurt. But then they
kill everybody and a lot of people like these guys
were gladiooperatives, you know, trying to scare people. But it's
like why would they be doing that. It's not like
subsequently the government of Belgium's like this is martial law.
It was just like they were doing this and nobody
knew why the government was being weird about it. Definitely
said people are like, oh no, they were just training
for you know, like on Target direct the action mission.
It's like, that's not any train people. And if they're
gonna do that, you know what you do or what
you would do. You'd say, this is a trap house.
See if you guys can get in there kill everybody
and not die, like that's how you do it. You
would say there's some pensioners and like women and kids
shopping for groceries like shoot them. Oh, and nobody has
any weapons like that. That doesn't make any sense. But
I'm not feeling well, so I'm having some brain fog.
But I'll do chose another one though, and that that
case also makes like no sense.
Speaker 1: But all right, well then I'll let you. I'll let
you get going here. Yeah, just do quick plugs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, thank you, Pete. I've got a lot of
content in the can from my pod and people like
my homie Jefferson Lee and my friend Anthony Ramondo. They've
been like helping me with all this stuff, which is awesome.
So there's a lot of fresh stuff on my substack
where the that's where the podcast is and other good stuff.
It's real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com.
I'm on social media at real capital r E A
L underscore number seven lowercase h O M A S
seven seven seven. I'm on t gram and Instagram. My
dear friend here at Kraig. He puts out like random
merge that we make because just like stuff that I
think it's cool because I'm kind of like a T
shirt guy and like a close guy, if you'd include that,
like in the descriptions. I can never remember like what
the what the website is, but yeah, that's so where
I'm at, and I promise I'll be better in a
few days. And again, forgive me if this wasn't up
to snuff.
Speaker 1: Man, No, this is all good. This was uh, this
was good. There was a lot there. I'll include everything
that you you asked.
Speaker 2: All right, that's a great thing. If all right, talks in.
Thanks