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everyone back to the Pekanana Show. Thomas is back and

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I think this is the I'm going to conclude Gladio today, Right,

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it's long time coming.

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Speaker 2: You're muted. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm just call up my outline.

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He real quick, No problem, Yeah no, I think oh yeah,

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here we go. I already got it up. Yeah, Like

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I said, man, I'm just to advise the viewers and

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subs like I don't. I don't feel great, so like,

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forgive me if I repeat myself, for like lose my place.

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But I think we're I think we're good something I

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want to get into today, and like I will as

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we get into the topic. Gladio created an interesting ideological

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culture that is relevant to like what we do today.

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It's not it's not just a strange footnote of history.

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It's not just something that gives rise to conspiratorial narratives.

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It's not just you know, this kind of artifact of

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Cold War grand strategy and military planning and and you know,

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related specifically to the nuances of political warfare and and

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all of that. You know. And like I said, I

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don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but you know,

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ground zero for Gladio is really Italy, okay, and Italy

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Italy absolutely lost the war, like like all of Europe.

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Did you know the Vatican was hitting incredibly hard, like

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figurely and literally you know, like Vatigan two was basically

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like like the the the Catholic leadership hierarchy re uh

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reinventing itself to to be agreeable to you know, to

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American hegem and like and like that in the Nurmer

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World War, okay, and the rest of Italy, Italy was

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was a key. I mean Italy was like the fifth

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largest economy I think the into the seventies on this planet.

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And Italy, uh, Italy and the Benelux countries they were

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they were they were like NATO's literal flanks, okay, I

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mean obviously like the the Budis Republic, you know, the U.

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S Army, you know, especifically the armored kV and field artillery,

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the British Army on the North German plane, they they

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were they were the share punk uh of like the

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main line of resistance in the German border. But the

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Italian Army you know, in the south and the Benelux

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uh military elements on then in the north they were

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just as essential. So there was this weird situation with

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the Italy because it wasn't occupied like the Buddhist Republic was.

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It was part of NATO. But there was also this

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like overtly fascist culture that was still active there, like

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they were sending people to parliament, you know, they and

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it just kind of had to be tolerated because it's like,

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what are you gonna do. It's like they had they

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had a pro they had a Cold War. Your government,

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they had like a permanent incumbency, you know, they were

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they hated the Communists. They were like one hundred and

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ten percent bying the Cold War. It was kind of

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like something that it was kind of something like Washington

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had to tolerate. So but of course they decided to

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kind of like try and purpose that towards Cold War

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ends on the political side, not just the military side.

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And that was like the Cora of Gladio. You know,

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there's there's obviously Gladio elements in in the Benelux countries,

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like in France as well, even though France wasn't you know,

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part of the formal natal structure, there was a there

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were there were Gladial elements of a sort like in

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in the Buddhist Republic. Oh, that was like a tricky thing,

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you know, and it was it was weirdly handled. But Italy,

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like the core of these guys was Italy. And also

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you know, like the Italians, the Italian Seven, they contribute

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like an outsized in an outsized way to European cultural things.

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And like we've talked about, you know, like I mean

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going back to the to the inner warriors, you know,

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like Mussolanie's March on Rome. That was a huge development,

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you know. Uh, it was this right wing revolutionary tendency

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that was basically like returning the serve like inever the

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bullster of revolution and weird when scene to Americans like

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art and like artistic endeavors and esthetical things, that has

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this that has like an outsized cachet in Europe like

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to this day, like you wouldn't think of America of

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some painter or even like a novelist or a filmmaker,

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like you wouldn't think of You wouldn't think of him

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like putting something in the stream a cultural commerce and

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it like a movement developing around it or coming to

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like symbolize some kind of movement. But in Italy that's

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very much the case. It wasn't it is, you know,

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and the Cold War was no exception. So you had

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these guys in Italy running around Hukastane kind of like

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a Cora Gladio and like some of them are very compromised.

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They were basically like NATO agents and that's like just

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what they were, and they didn't really give a fuck

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like about what your knowing ideology was beyond you know,

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Cold war imperatives. But you also had these guys who

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were you know, who are basically like attes At Julius

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eve Law or who in the early days had you know,

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fought in the Italian army like with the Axis, or

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you know, they were guys who came to Gladio because

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they were agitating against communists, you know, or they were

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or immigrants or you know, whatever their kind of core

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issues were, and they got swept up you know by

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like uh Italian carbonaria or or political police. And I'm like, okay,

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look like why do you make your so useful, like

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this is what you're wanting to do? You know? So

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that that's that's kind of like the that that that's

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kind of that was kind of like the situation on

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the Italian street, you know, particularly in Rome, but kind

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of like all over the country. And I can't remember

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I got into this or not I refreshed my recollection,

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but I if I'm repeating myself, call me on it.

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But what kind of brought Gladio to people's awareness? I'm

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talking in terms of like the general public was uh

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was the Patiano massacre I can't remember we got into

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this last time or not, but basically on May thirty, first,

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seventy two, there was was characterized as a neo fascist

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terror attack. There's an anonymous call uh place to this Carbonary

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barracks in a suburb of uh Cigadadel and the caller said,

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you know, hey, check this car, Check this abandoned car.

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You know it's it's an ied And when they did,

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and like it exploded as like they were trying to

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investigate it, and it killed these three cops. The perpetrators

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or the guys who got brought up who got stuck

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with the charges on grounds of it. They were, uh,

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this guy named Vincenzo and Seguera, Carlo Stini and this

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guy Ivano Bucket Chino and all these guys remembers of

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this of this group called New Order, the the the

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official name is the New Order of Scholarship Center. It

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was basically like a think tank and it wasn't a

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political party. It was kind of like ling that ben

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LA was like uh Greece g R E c E

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or Grace, you know it was. It basically was what

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it appeared to be. It was like a research group,

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you know, and when when you know what where they

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who was funding them and where they were getting money

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from wasn't exactly clear, but there was a lot of that.

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There's a lot of there's a lot of like money

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going into it. And the Italian Social Movement, which was

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a mainstream political party despite they could they considered and

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consider themselves to to be the direct descendance of the

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National Fanscist Party and they kind of are like, it's

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not cap but the New Order Scholarship Center they came

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about based on like a schizm in the Italian Social Movement,

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which is interesting, like as as the Italian Social Movement

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kind of approached mainstream respectability and like the Eisenhower era,

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which happened to like a lot of like right wing

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parties in Europe and during that era too, I mean

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that was one like Francis Yaqui was like writing speeches

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for Joseph McCarthy, Like very unusual stuff was going on

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due to you know what amounts so like an enduring emergency.

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You know, this is the era like the Berlin crises

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and things. You know, people are convinced that coldor is

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gonna be hi hot become hot. This was also in

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a bunch of guys with real trigger time, you know,

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like basically the entire first SS, like leap stand Art,

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they were rotting in prison. Septietrich had a life sentence,

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Yak and Piper at the death kind of lead. A

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bunch of these guys got released during this era, like

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not because NATO wanted to be nice, and not not

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because Washington decided they wanted to roll back the present

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they've established at Narberg. But they're like, you know, we're

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we're we're almost certainly going to fight World War three imminently,

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and we need we you know, we need officers and

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n c o s have actually fought the Ivans, and

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we can't be going around arresting people for being right

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wing and that's not gonna work. So kind of the

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mainstream of the Italian social movement are Turo Mischellini, who

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was like their hancho, Like he was basically a moderate

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for the time. He was like a right wing moderate.

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He uh, he wanted to click up with the Christian Democrats,

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with the monarchists, you know, basically he wanted to join

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kind of like the mainstream coalition of like center right parties,

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and these guys, uh like Buggatcino and like Vincigatta and

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like Sicutini. They were like like that's not happening, like

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they're for bears. I don't think they were involved at

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that time, but you know these there was these schismatic

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guys you know who were who were uh, who are

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very much like Evold and Ancolytes, and they're like that's bullshit,

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like you're not You're not gonna turn us into some

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like some like regime approved like like part of the

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parliamentary apparatus. You know. So these guys found a new order, okay,

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and there was a U and this guy this is

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kind of formalize the nineteen fifty six there was this

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big meeting in Melan that was the Italian social moment

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in Congress and this guy, Pino Rowdy, who was the

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he was he was like kind of the representative what

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became like new order. He basically stood up and said,

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like you know that you're you're disgracing the honor like

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the man who died like fighting the Americans and the Communists.

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You know, how dare you? You know you're trying to

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hijack us. You know this this is this is Jewish

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you know. Fuck you basically, so like that was that

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So these New Order guys were kind of like and

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everybody shit list anyway, Like I'm not saying they didn't

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plant as Bob. Maybe they did or maybe they didn't,

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but it served multiple purposes to claim these guys did

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it even if they did not. And I love Italians

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and Italy. I'm not saying bad things about those a people,

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but Italian justice is not exactly rigorous or going to

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do process, you know, especially.

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Speaker 1: During that If you don't like the Italian government, wait

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five years, they'll get a new one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that too, But that's that's kind of the context

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and other other right wing movements in Europe, and this

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is a very different circumstance. It wasn't like now there

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you know, like I'm always talking about these these literally

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mentally retarded people who like show for Zelensky and stuff

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because they're like too stupid to be alive. But some

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of the are they're like they're like brainy, being a

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meba or something. But but in those you know, like

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that nowadays, there there's there's literally like the regime, there's globalism,

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and then there's people resisting it. You know, whether there's

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Salathis who are not good guys or our friends, whether they're

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in Iran, whether they're in Russia, who are our friends,

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whether they're you know. But but I mean in the

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Cold War, there's all these bizarre intrigues and everything was

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characterized by Cold War dynamics and phenomenon. So like even

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if you didn't want to take a side, you had

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to insinuate sinsinuate yourself somehow into that paradigm, like otherwise

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you were just pissing into the wind, you know. So

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and plus two you could play people off against each other,

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you know, like if you know, in in the fifties

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and sixties and then post it's hot, you know, in

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the nineteen eighties. I mean basically, if you were approached,

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if you were if you were a partisan, and whether

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you're in Italy or the or the Benelux countries or

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the UK, and you've got actual bodies on in the street,

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you could approach by some intelligence guy or some NATO type. Yeah,

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I mean you can basically take turns to him. You know,

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you want to start behaving myself. You want me to

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commit to doing something when you need to fight the communists,

237
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you would have give me a lot of money or

238
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a lot of small arms and ammo or like a

239
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lot of drugs I can sell or something, you know,

240
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And there was a limits to this obviously, but you know,

241
00:15:29,759 --> 00:15:35,080
it was a rarefied circumstance, you know, a new order.

242
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Also there's stuff with disseminated throughout Europe and in those

243
00:15:38,639 --> 00:15:42,320
good days, you know, fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, you know,

244
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print media was the only thing, was the only game

245
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in town, you know, so and what you could find,

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especially especially based on the censorship censorship regime, not just

247
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in the Buddhist Republic, but in the UK and other places,

248
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you know, you had to take like you had to

249
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get what could be smuggled in. You know, sometimes it

250
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,519
be in English, sometimes it wouldn't. Sometimes it'd be like

251
00:16:03,559 --> 00:16:08,600
an English translation that was imprecise. But a whole lot

252
00:16:08,639 --> 00:16:13,559
of this material relevant to the Right, relative to the

253
00:16:13,559 --> 00:16:17,559
old resistance in Europe, what's coming out of Italy. And

254
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,080
you know nor Ord's publications they very much valorized the

255
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:27,440
Third Right and the Kingdom of Italy. And there were

256
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,879
dead you know, in the independent State of Croatia, and

257
00:16:29,919 --> 00:16:35,480
like all the excess powers, they also they had links

258
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,519
with the boor of Republic in Rhodesia also, like they

259
00:16:38,519 --> 00:16:43,519
had strong support there. You know. It was very anti modernist.

260
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It was very strassor right, you know. And despite what

261
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,080
people think Strasser had, uh, he had he had a

262
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,399
he had a very nuanced view of things. I don't

263
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,600
agree with this perspective. But it wasn't just oh he

264
00:16:54,679 --> 00:16:57,840
was a socialist, but he also didn't like Zionism. It's

265
00:16:57,919 --> 00:17:00,679
there was nothing like that, and he was not was Soviet.

266
00:17:01,679 --> 00:17:03,759
He said that, you know, Europe has to fight some

267
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kind of concord with Moscow no matter what the government

268
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,759
is there, and that's the way forward. But he basically

269
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,200
the reason why the standard of the Black Front it

270
00:17:14,279 --> 00:17:16,160
was the hammer and sword. It wasn't just because it

271
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,160
looks cool. You know, he's the stress or, the stress or.

272
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,799
His whole point was we've got to return to like

273
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,200
medieval origins. That's you know, not not in some ridiculous

274
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way or or not in some luodite way. But he's like,

275
00:17:29,759 --> 00:17:34,720
you know, this, this devolved, localized governmental structure is what's

276
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natural to Europe. You know, yes, we need a national government,

277
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but it's got to be totally federated and not just

278
00:17:40,279 --> 00:17:43,559
the name only, you know, like they like down to

279
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,359
down like the township level, like they basically wanted like

280
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local sovereignty and for matters that you know impact you know,

281
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,720
like the folk community or like war in peace questioned

282
00:17:56,759 --> 00:18:00,359
the base of security, like that's that's what the national

283
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,519
community ossifies as one. But otherwise, you know, it's it exists,

284
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and it's totally like organic, kind of like spontaneous in

285
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the weald capacity. And that's basically what the third position

286
00:18:12,279 --> 00:18:15,440
was up on during the entire Cold War. And the

287
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,359
third position as we think of it, it does not

288
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:22,039
exist anymore. You know. John Bowden made that point two.

289
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,000
So if you're like, oh, I'm a third positionist, well

290
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,359
that doesn't make any sense in America anyway, because there

291
00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:31,359
is no American third position. Okay, there was like a

292
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,039
there there was there was a there was a taffy

293
00:18:35,079 --> 00:18:38,000
and right wing position that was America first, we shouldn't

294
00:18:38,039 --> 00:18:40,559
be fighting the Cold War. But that's something totally different.

295
00:18:41,319 --> 00:18:43,240
And in the twentyth century, there's just not a third

296
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a third position anywhere because there's not there's not the

297
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,160
binary paradigm. There's globalism and everybody opposing it. That's it.

298
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And those people opposing it, they have different motives for

299
00:18:56,079 --> 00:19:01,759
opposing it, some of which are some of which you know,

300
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,720
are like rhyme with one another, some which don't at all.

301
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,200
But there's but but there's not two positions. There's one

302
00:19:09,279 --> 00:19:12,799
position and there's the resistance. This is actually important. It's

303
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,519
not just something that academic types and people like me

304
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:23,279
are into or relate to pot you know, contemplate and pontificate.

305
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:30,839
Speaker 1: That well people, but people may I think sometimes people

306
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,319
think that you say stuff like that just to just

307
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,240
to upset them, because it upsets them. They you know,

308
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,279
they think they're a third positionist and they under yeah,

309
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:42,559
in what way?

310
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Speaker 2: You know.

311
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,480
Speaker 1: It's like it's like talking about being right wing or

312
00:19:45,599 --> 00:19:48,039
left wing and you're talking about the early you know,

313
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,759
twentieth century. In Europe. It's not the same thing as

314
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,200
in Europe as it is in the United States. There's

315
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:54,319
a lot more nuance there.

316
00:19:55,519 --> 00:20:00,799
Speaker 2: Well, there's also the same guys who think that they like,

317
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,759
they think that they think that they're right wing if

318
00:20:04,799 --> 00:20:09,039
they agree on foreign policy with Chuck Schumer, Ben Nettniya,

319
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,240
who Joe Biden in Nancy Pelosi, it's like, I don't

320
00:20:13,279 --> 00:20:16,440
care if you don't like the Russians. If you're ethnically

321
00:20:16,519 --> 00:20:19,920
cleansing Slavic people on orders of a Zionists for the

322
00:20:20,039 --> 00:20:25,200
purpose of dismantling Ukraine and Russia as discreete ethnocultural entities,

323
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,079
you're not right wing. You're some kind of fuck head

324
00:20:28,079 --> 00:20:31,279
who's killing people for the globalist regime. Like the fact

325
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,799
you wear like a little swastigardless and a black metal

326
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,079
or because you're like some like Brony Satanists doesn't make

327
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,039
you right wing. It just makes you a fucking idiot.

328
00:20:39,759 --> 00:20:41,680
You know. Like if I if I like rob a

329
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,240
liquor store when I'm high on crack and say, you know,

330
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,319
God Save the King, that doesn't make me a monarchist.

331
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,519
It makes me a crackhead who robs liquor stores and

332
00:20:50,599 --> 00:20:53,640
says weird things. You know. It's kind of the same thing. Man,

333
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,160
Like if Nambula started like wearing swastigus nimblesics to fucking beast,

334
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,359
They'm gonna go like, fucking kid because it's like beast

335
00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:03,640
like they literally would be like that, you know. But

336
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,160
that's a different I don't want to ran about that

337
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:13,240
and get my blood pressure up. But the uh, but

338
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,599
you know, yeah I did. I mean, but that that

339
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,200
was basically like the situation in Italy and again like

340
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:24,839
uh the DA massacre, these these Carbonariti like that that

341
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,440
these guys probably I don't think I wanted to kill

342
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:33,640
the police, but I think they definitely like were like

343
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,160
guilty of the crying charge despite whatever propaganda might have

344
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,960
been milked out of it by by the Italian government.

345
00:21:42,519 --> 00:21:45,000
Because these guys are these guys are serious. Like the

346
00:21:45,079 --> 00:21:48,119
New Order guys, they jumped the gun a little bit.

347
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,480
A lot of them didn't have practical experience as partisans

348
00:21:52,839 --> 00:21:55,960
like the like the Growth Army fraction did you know,

349
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,480
they weren't properly trained in that stuff, but you know

350
00:21:59,519 --> 00:22:02,279
they were series. They were like willing to engage in

351
00:22:02,319 --> 00:22:07,880
direct action. But as time went on, they kind of

352
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:14,720
they became something of an elite uh organization. You know,

353
00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:17,799
they very they gave, they gate kept very hard. They

354
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,680
always helped themselves out as a vanguard as tendency. You know,

355
00:22:23,079 --> 00:22:26,759
as time went on there there kind of cause paramilitary

356
00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:32,119
aspect became more uh like a high speed and and incredible.

357
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,119
You know, at peak they had about ten thousand members

358
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,039
and these guys, uh, this is only campaign for nuclear

359
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,759
disarmament was a big thing in Europe, which it selves

360
00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:46,759
like a cover not just for like you know, uh

361
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,319
like like Soviet and wasn't like money was coming into

362
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,680
fund this stuff, but it's also a cover for like

363
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,720
real radicals you know, and and and communists and anarchists

364
00:22:55,759 --> 00:22:58,559
of varied stripes like no order. They they go out

365
00:22:58,599 --> 00:23:00,920
and like kick the ship out of these guys when

366
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,559
they'd have like protests and these like mass demonstrations, you know.

367
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,599
So that that caused the Garment in Rome to kind

368
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,279
of like raise a cyber and be like, okay, like

369
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,880
let's not just like smash these guys. And then I

370
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,599
think that had a lot to do with them kind

371
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,200
of being the core of Gladio beyond like what I

372
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,960
already suggested, what was just owing to the peculiar conditions

373
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,000
of Italy and and and nuances they're in. But it's like, Okay,

374
00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:30,000
these guys, these guys will get dirty, Okay, you know

375
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,799
that they're not afraid to do that. And they they

376
00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:35,640
seem to be thirsty for action, you know, so they're

377
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,799
not We can be advised, especially if we if we

378
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,160
send some special operations for USS types to kind of

379
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,039
bring them up the speed. These guys will probably be

380
00:23:45,559 --> 00:23:48,119
like looking forward to some kind of Soviet assault where

381
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,079
they can go out and and and play cowboys and Indians.

382
00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:56,559
It's kind of like a perfect storm of stuff. But uh,

383
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:05,160
later on that substantial uh just stancil percentage of these

384
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:13,240
guys like rejoined uh the Italian social movement, but that

385
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,920
there remained kind of like I think some of that too.

386
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,440
It was them like hemorrhaging off people who like weren't

387
00:24:20,319 --> 00:24:23,960
really up to the task of doing extra legal stuff.

388
00:24:24,039 --> 00:24:28,200
It's complicated, but there's a lot of historians, and not

389
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:33,519
just mainstream historians, but like you know, uh, like vanguardist

390
00:24:33,559 --> 00:24:35,599
types like us, we like read this as like, oh,

391
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,720
there was a second schism. I don't think that's true.

392
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,279
But that's kind of complicated. I in the time we

393
00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:43,680
got left, I don't want to I don't want to

394
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:51,440
go on that tanded deeply. But the uh and not coincidentally,

395
00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:54,480
the New Order's motto was our honor is called loyalty.

396
00:24:54,680 --> 00:25:00,359
I'm not gonna try and pronounce the Italian very to that,

397
00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:07,119
but obviously that's you know, yeah, has Troy. My loyalty

398
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,359
is my honor, which is the SS model. The symbol

399
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,160
of the organization was a double headed axe, you know,

400
00:25:14,319 --> 00:25:16,359
like meaning like we look both right and left, but

401
00:25:16,799 --> 00:25:19,279
you know, the ross the folk community is the center,

402
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,599
and like we represent that as a vanguard, you know,

403
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:27,200
and we fight both elements from within when they threaten us,

404
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,519
but we will act as like the shpare punk of

405
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,000
either if it advances, you know, the interests of the

406
00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:42,759
folk community. An important side note to this is what

407
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:48,400
became of the British National Front, which today and I

408
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,720
I can't say for sure what the state of the

409
00:25:50,799 --> 00:25:53,640
London Street is or anything. I read the Nation and

410
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,240
so if our English and Ulster friends and Scottish friends,

411
00:25:59,079 --> 00:26:01,920
if I'm wrong about this, please weigh in and don't

412
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,400
be offended. But I don't think I'm wrong. I think

413
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,759
the National Front the British National Fraud, not to be

414
00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:11,119
confused with the French organization, which is a lot more

415
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:17,960
mainstream and regime approved. The I think the National Front

416
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,039
these days is basically a website, okay, or like a

417
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,559
social media It's got some social media presence, but like

418
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,039
even they're like nobody not even there's probably like a

419
00:26:27,039 --> 00:26:28,839
couple hundred people who fuck with it and don't care

420
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,000
about it, but it was a big deal in the

421
00:26:32,079 --> 00:26:36,599
seventies and eighties. They're the fourth largest party. They're they're

422
00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:38,519
the largest party after the Live Dems in the UK

423
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,079
for a minute, Okay. They were founded by A. K.

424
00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:49,640
Chesterton who had been who've been affiliated with Mosley. He

425
00:26:49,799 --> 00:26:52,839
came from AH. He came from the League of Empire

426
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:59,920
Loyalists and the first British National Party and he was

427
00:27:00,039 --> 00:27:03,839
related to uh. He was related to G. K. Chesterton.

428
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,000
He'd been born in South Africa. During the Second Bold War,

429
00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:13,839
his family fled back to the UK. But it uh,

430
00:27:16,079 --> 00:27:18,960
this was uh. This was during the time when Enna

431
00:27:19,079 --> 00:27:21,400
Powell was really kind of carving out like a dissident

432
00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:28,359
tendancy in the UK too. But the National Front it

433
00:27:28,559 --> 00:27:32,440
really got cloud when John Tindall kind of came to

434
00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:36,440
the helm And Tindall was an interesting guy. I highly

435
00:27:36,519 --> 00:27:41,720
recommend his autobiography. It's really it's good stuff. But you

436
00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:45,319
know Tindall, Uh, Kendall's big thing was, you know, stop

437
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,839
non white immigration, and he campaigned on a plant from

438
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,000
a repatriot these people now, which absolutely would have been

439
00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:55,400
possible at that time. That wasn't he wasn't just like

440
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,799
talking shit like we're gonna build a wool and it's

441
00:27:57,799 --> 00:28:00,079
gonna stop all these Mexicans because it's a wall. It

442
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:01,880
was like nothing like that. It was like you could

443
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,880
do this because the political will was there, you know.

444
00:28:05,039 --> 00:28:06,799
And uh, this is when things were totally going to

445
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,359
hell in Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland is relevant to

446
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,440
this gladier with third position thing two. I'm not just

447
00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:16,880
on a crazy tangent, but Tindall was basically like a

448
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,720
main He was a pretty mainstream, like white nationalist, empire

449
00:28:19,799 --> 00:28:22,960
loyalist type guy. He's like, why we push the footing

450
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,799
with the IRA, Fuck these people smash them? Why are

451
00:28:25,839 --> 00:28:28,400
we getting flooded with these Third world immigrants? Like why,

452
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,359
you know, why how come? You know? Why? Why why

453
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,559
are the Tories like talking a lot of shit? But

454
00:28:34,839 --> 00:28:39,160
we're basically getting state socialism and and and we're not

455
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,200
you know, we're we're not even a competitive economy anymore.

456
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,039
But something started happening within the National Front and the

457
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,160
NF two. They'd have these mass rallies in London and

458
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:59,000
you know, in uh, in Liverpool and in Belfast, although

459
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,880
it hit Belfast a bit later. And I'm getting ahead

460
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:08,000
of myself. But the guys who came to constitute the

461
00:29:08,119 --> 00:29:11,200
West Belfast Brigade, like Sea Company of the West Belfast

462
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,680
Brigade of the UDA. Johnny Adare who was who was

463
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,119
an infamous guy and not an admirable guy, very much

464
00:29:19,119 --> 00:29:22,519
a gangster. He was a National Front skinhead and he

465
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,799
was in the Rock against Communism scene, and soare all

466
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,720
his friends. And these guys became c company, okay, and

467
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,880
like they were all about the National Front. So on

468
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,039
the one hand, like Comedy eighteen and these guys other

469
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,440
than other than the mid Elster UVF, which became the

470
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:50,039
LVF under Billy Ri's rain. You know, people say like,

471
00:29:50,079 --> 00:29:52,119
well that was an outlier or like the far right

472
00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:57,240
and loyalists don't have the common ground. That's not really true, okay, Like,

473
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,279
but we'll get into that in a minute. And this

474
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:04,160
totally real as to the third position of schismatic schismatics

475
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,480
in Italy, which in turn impacted the National Front, which

476
00:30:07,519 --> 00:30:12,200
in turn found an audience in Ulster specifically belf Bass.

477
00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:17,359
But what happened in the National Front was the schism

478
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:23,720
happened between what was called the Political Soldier faction and

479
00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:27,319
what was the Flag Group because the National Front zine

480
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:33,920
or newsletter was the Flag. Okay, But essentially Tendall leaves

481
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,200
a National Front and identity too and he forms the

482
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,720
British National Party, which in turn became the BNP of

483
00:30:39,799 --> 00:30:42,319
the nineties, where Nick Griffin was at the helm, which

484
00:30:42,319 --> 00:30:45,039
is understand because Griffin was part of the political soldier faction.

485
00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:55,359
But the uh, the National Front split during the during

486
00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:01,440
this time appropising when Tindall left, okay, and the Official

487
00:31:01,559 --> 00:31:05,480
National Front, which was the political soldier faction, they started

488
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,000
they started associating with this guy, Roberto Fiori, but I

489
00:31:09,119 --> 00:31:11,519
believe Griffin actually lived with for a time, not in

490
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,920
some weird way, but like they live into like the

491
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,079
same rooming house or a bunch of like right wing guys.

492
00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:24,039
It was more like their hques basically. But the Official

493
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:29,640
National Front or the Political Soldier faction, they basically are like,

494
00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:32,319
why why are we worried about preserving the monarchy? Like

495
00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:34,559
why are we worried about trying to bring the UK

496
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:40,480
back to you know as it existed between you know,

497
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,680
like the reign of you know, the minute of the

498
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,920
Prime minsership at Disraeli and you know through like Edwardian

499
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:52,279
days to you know basically probably like when Ramsey McDonald

500
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,079
the game PM, It's like, why is that like our model?

501
00:31:55,839 --> 00:31:57,319
You know, He's like, we got to start looking at

502
00:31:57,359 --> 00:32:03,799
ourselves as as uh as politable soldiers. You know, Uh,

503
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,400
we got to start viewing uh, you know, America and

504
00:32:08,559 --> 00:32:12,200
his client regime in London as our enemy just as

505
00:32:12,279 --> 00:32:17,160
much as the Communists are. They started uh making overtures

506
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:23,839
to Kadafi because Kadafi would would uh, he'd support elements

507
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,319
that he thought would advance the goals that you know,

508
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,359
Kadafi was very much Warsaw packed adjacent, like ten percent,

509
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,640
but he was an unusual guy and like my friend

510
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,240
Big D, like in you know, the first time I

511
00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:40,599
cut con it whatever, mean it was no Rouken and

512
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,640
he was talking. You know, he got swept up in

513
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,359
the indictments when when Jeff Fort you know, was and

514
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,359
the Rukens were taking min from Kadafi was fourth then

515
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,359
talk and spent on dope to put on the street,

516
00:32:51,839 --> 00:32:54,400
and Kadafi's like, fuck, this guy put a hit on them.

517
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,319
But you know, like Big D said, he's like the

518
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,759
a lot of the rooken leadership was all about that.

519
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,519
But so we're like these third position as guys in Europe, okay.

520
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,279
And and of course the uh like the Flag group,

521
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,000
you know, they they were like, this is bullshit. You know,

522
00:33:12,079 --> 00:33:15,279
you don't you don't you don't associate with non whites.

523
00:33:15,319 --> 00:33:20,240
We're not radicals, you know, all of that. Okay. But

524
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:28,160
as the National Front was doing that, the uh you know,

525
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,200
and and this kind of stress to right stuff was

526
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,680
was being like widely disseminated at least within like right

527
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:40,400
wing circles, you know. At this time, like in nineteen

528
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,720
eighty six, when the two wings that party formally split,

529
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,319
it was probably about they probably about like five thousand

530
00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:52,400
like like hardcore members like paid dues and they're like

531
00:33:52,759 --> 00:33:58,319
like on record and all of that stuff, and about uh,

532
00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:05,160
probably about three thousand of them like like stay with

533
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,679
like the mainstream National Front, but two thousand like clicked

534
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,679
up with you know, like the political Soldier like official

535
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:19,800
National Front political Soldier wing. But they had you know

536
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,239
in the UK only here, like if you got a

537
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,079
form of player, if your record is a political party,

538
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,840
like you pay dues, you know, it's like a membership

539
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,199
organization and you've got supporters who aren't at all involved

540
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,000
in like the membership side of things. So despite like

541
00:34:35,039 --> 00:34:39,719
what seems like paltry numbers for like a protest party,

542
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,159
that's actually pretty good for the time. And like I said,

543
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,920
these guys could, these guys could get a crowd in

544
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,039
the streets in London, particularly if they were you know,

545
00:34:49,039 --> 00:34:51,639
if they were if they were clashing you know with

546
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:57,000
the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament types or or or like

547
00:34:57,119 --> 00:35:00,000
radical left types, because like people didn't like those type,

548
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,480
you know, they just didn't, you know, I mean, end

549
00:35:03,519 --> 00:35:04,840
of this day, I think of the man in this

550
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,039
I realized London has changed dramatically since then and since

551
00:35:09,079 --> 00:35:13,599
I was there in the late nineties. But I'm sure

552
00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:16,760
it's kind of like Shytown. There's there is kind of

553
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,480
like above the silent majority type element that gets mad

554
00:35:20,519 --> 00:35:23,000
when they see that stuff. And a lot of these

555
00:35:23,039 --> 00:35:25,159
non white people, whether they should be there or not,

556
00:35:25,199 --> 00:35:26,880
it's a different question, but a lot of them don't

557
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,960
like that shit either. But you know, so plus do

558
00:35:32,119 --> 00:35:37,039
like the National Front, even it's early iteration. You know,

559
00:35:37,159 --> 00:35:40,920
under Tyndall, it did stand, it did contest, it did

560
00:35:41,079 --> 00:35:44,440
contest elections, but it viewed itself as a vanguardist tendancy

561
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:54,800
when it did. Uh that change really after Tyndall left,

562
00:35:56,039 --> 00:35:59,039
they decided they wanted to become almost like a mainstream

563
00:35:59,159 --> 00:36:02,840
party in some ways, you know, and like a mass

564
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,280
membership organization. This is one of the reasons for the

565
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,639
skis of my belief because for something like for an

566
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,239
organization like that, like that's fatal to it. You know,

567
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,559
it's not. It's not just that you've got to adopt

568
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:17,280
a vanguard is posture. If you're in the United States

569
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,679
or the UK or or the EU these days, like

570
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,199
in those days, even when there's kind of more room

571
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:32,559
to participate in formal processes, you you couldn't you couldn't

572
00:36:32,679 --> 00:36:34,599
just try and like reinvent yourself as kind of like

573
00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:37,920
the dissident Tories or something like or it. It wouldn't

574
00:36:38,519 --> 00:36:40,679
like just just by like sheer value, you would be

575
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,760
diluted and the into becoming an effectual like regardless of

576
00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:47,639
the fact that you know, there's not there's not real

577
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,679
social capital between an organization putting people in an organization

578
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,320
like a million members or something. But any event, and

579
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,760
that that was a big thing the political soldier faction

580
00:36:58,519 --> 00:37:03,360
they refuse to stay in for contest elections, but bringing

581
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:10,679
it to him, bringing it to bring it to the

582
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,800
to the Northern Ireland situation and kind of how Gladio,

583
00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:17,039
which in turn kind of creave rise the third position,

584
00:37:17,079 --> 00:37:19,400
which in turn impact like an active conflict on the

585
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:25,519
ground and weighs unforeseen. This guy named Andy Tierry, he

586
00:37:25,679 --> 00:37:28,880
was born in Belfast. You know, it's a poor family.

587
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,760
He sounded like an x x ex British Army soldier.

588
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,280
He grew up in the loyalist heartland on Shango Road,

589
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,960
and his family and many others he had like uh

590
00:37:44,599 --> 00:37:49,639
moved to bally Murphy and then New Barnsley, like when

591
00:37:49,679 --> 00:37:51,880
his dad needed work, like you know, because among other

592
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,079
things in the late sixties it was like a huge

593
00:37:54,119 --> 00:37:58,559
recession you know across the UK, but I mean Belfast

594
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,800
was especially hit hard. And when the troubles kept off

595
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,000
in sixty nine, the family, uh, they got ethnically cleansed,

596
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,880
like they're they got attacked, so they go back to

597
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,559
the share go. Tierry is an ancient Scottish name, so

598
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,400
I'm sure like the Tierries are on the shit list

599
00:38:17,119 --> 00:38:19,719
of the of the provos anybody else like when it

600
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:25,239
first jumped off yet is his roots could be traced

601
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,400
to the early days of the ulcer plantations. I mean

602
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,119
this this guy had like loyalism in his DNA. Okay,

603
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,840
I'm not saying that's good or bad. That's a fact,

604
00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:39,000
Like it's just a fact. But so Tierry clicks up

605
00:38:39,039 --> 00:38:42,719
with the He first clicks up with the UVF, and

606
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,840
they liked him because he was serious and tough and

607
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,440
he was literally from the Shango Road and his family

608
00:38:48,519 --> 00:38:53,320
had been attacked by out of the provos or adjacent vigilantes.

609
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,079
But Tierry looks at the UVF and he's like, you know,

610
00:38:56,199 --> 00:38:59,440
these guys are like the UVF sole notion first of all.

611
00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:03,800
I mean, you know, it was this the second iteration,

612
00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:07,320
which came about in sixty five and in which Tiri joined.

613
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,159
They were very, very selective. They looked at themselves this

614
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,360
direct action element whose job it was to kill the IRA. Like, yes,

615
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,639
they dropped a lot of civilian bodies too, just to

616
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,159
terrorize people. But their idea was, we're not a mass

617
00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:25,719
membership organization. We're not a vigilante grouping. You know, we're

618
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,840
an elite element. We're a counter terrorist element. You know,

619
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,599
we attacked the provos and we killed them. You know,

620
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,480
Tiri's old thing is like, look like my family, but

621
00:39:36,639 --> 00:39:39,719
my family got murked and like kicked out of our home.

622
00:39:40,519 --> 00:39:43,440
You know, we we need somebody to protect Protestant areas

623
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,920
from this kind of thing. Yes, you say, you know what,

624
00:39:47,039 --> 00:39:50,599
that's not what we do. So Tiri joins the UDA. Well,

625
00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:56,679
first he joined the Shankhilt Defense Association, And there was

626
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,760
a bunch of quote defense associations that got set up

627
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:05,679
in and Protestant hoods, especially in interface areas. And basically

628
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,360
they'd organized on like quasi military lines, you know, and

629
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,400
like vigilantism, whether it's here in the American South and

630
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,079
whether it's an Ulster, that's just like what we do,

631
00:40:17,639 --> 00:40:22,079
you know, that's just what that's what Ulster Scott to do. Okay.

632
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,519
As the as these defense organizations like started street fighting

633
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,280
with their Catholic neighbors and and with the provos and

634
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:39,000
and with other elements, they start getting coalesced into a

635
00:40:39,119 --> 00:40:45,039
single U element which became the Ulster Defense Association, which

636
00:40:45,119 --> 00:40:48,039
at peak I think had about fifty thousand members. And

637
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:54,320
UDA's notion they weren't outlawed until nineteen ninety two because

638
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,800
they incorporated above board and they said we're a defense

639
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:02,800
organization and like an event Dublin intervenes. We're gonna go

640
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,639
to the rifle and we're gonna attack or an event,

641
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,159
you know, we get sold out by London, we're gonna fight.

642
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,920
You know. That was their whole deal. And UFF was

643
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,280
the current name for the direct action element, which was

644
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,039
Ulster Freedom Fighters. Okay, those are their shooters, that's what

645
00:41:21,079 --> 00:41:23,519
they called themselves. And they claimed that they weren't the

646
00:41:23,519 --> 00:41:27,880
same organization. And a lot of people on the provo

647
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,239
side as well as just kind of observers, are critical

648
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,400
of how this whole thing was handled by the Crown.

649
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,760
They say like, well, you know, UFF was very much

650
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,840
like in part of Crown proxy and that's why they've

651
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,719
just let it do whach thing. That's not the old

652
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:50,760
it's it's more murky than that. Okay. But Tierry, he

653
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:56,039
he developed a reputation for two things. He was a

654
00:41:56,119 --> 00:41:59,440
guy who kind of raised hell within the organization for

655
00:41:59,639 --> 00:42:03,880
like strongly heterodox ideas, and he was he was very,

656
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,119
very tough, so like the men respected him, even though

657
00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:10,639
he thought that he was kind of spinning off into

658
00:42:11,039 --> 00:42:14,679
crazy territory. I said, with all respect, that's just a fact.

659
00:42:19,159 --> 00:42:27,039
He Erry's kind of the zenith of this tendency in

660
00:42:27,159 --> 00:42:29,960
May nineteen seventy four there was the Ulster Workers Council

661
00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:38,360
strike and Tierry knew a bunch of these guys and

662
00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:42,599
like the in the Belfast and Ulster wide labor movement

663
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,960
because he'd been like a shop steward like back in

664
00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:50,719
his days, as like a factory laborer, you know, so

665
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,599
he was he was somewhat close to this guy Glenn Barr,

666
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,880
who was the strike leaders like the UDA in those

667
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,639
days they had like a very socialist bank you know,

668
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,400
and like the and like the the worst council strike

669
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,960
like basically like shut down Belfast. This was still when

670
00:43:10,159 --> 00:43:13,480
you know, like the UK was an economy relying on

671
00:43:13,679 --> 00:43:17,440
national industry. There's like really really food barred things. So

672
00:43:18,679 --> 00:43:20,760
Tierry got this reputation is like this kind of like

673
00:43:21,159 --> 00:43:23,599
labor leader and like hero of the working man like

674
00:43:23,679 --> 00:43:26,039
which he was. I wasn't cap he was those things,

675
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,079
but he also was like this like rabid loyalist. So

676
00:43:31,119 --> 00:43:34,679
they like raised the UD's profile because like people theretofore,

677
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:36,920
it been like these guys are just like a much

678
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:41,159
of like yaku vigilantes and killers and like sectarian wacos.

679
00:43:41,559 --> 00:43:43,559
They're like, huh, maybe these guys are like actually like

680
00:43:43,679 --> 00:43:46,320
serious people or and whether we like them or not,

681
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,079
they're gonna have like a serious impact on how the

682
00:43:50,159 --> 00:43:54,320
crisis resolves in Northern Ireland. But Tierry he was a

683
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,199
big strass arrist. He was like reading the kind of

684
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,679
content that like the New Order was putting out. He

685
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,519
was like reading like political soldier stuff that the National

686
00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:08,159
Front was putting out. He took out. He started putting

687
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:13,719
out essays and like the UDA uh magazine about all

688
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,440
we got to push for an independent Ulster like Ian

689
00:44:16,519 --> 00:44:20,320
Paisley's a bastard, Like fuck these politicians who are trying

690
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,599
to like piggyback on the fact we're fighting the war.

691
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,800
You know. Tierry famously banned like Ian Paisley from like

692
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,199
this one UDA meeting, Like he physically is like you

693
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,000
like pushed him bags, like get the fuck out of here.

694
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,199
And that made a bunch of people really upset. They're like,

695
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,039
you can't do that. He's not gonna do what the

696
00:44:35,079 --> 00:44:38,280
fucking want. You know, what are you gonna do about it?

697
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,679
You know? So maybe he had more balls and good

698
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,800
sense in some ways. But point being, this is like

699
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,920
when the third position like came to Ulster, which at

700
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:58,039
that point was like a peak conflict cycle. Okay, so

701
00:44:58,199 --> 00:45:00,920
that's kind of when and people started like connecting the dots.

702
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,079
I don't like mean like you know, like the man

703
00:45:03,159 --> 00:45:05,800
in the street. I mean it's like academic types and

704
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,960
these military sociologists and these guys were very much kind

705
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,000
of on the public affairs and psychological warfare side of

706
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:18,360
special operations. They're like, what's happening here, Like maybe this

707
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,159
isn't like a great thing that this third physition stuff

708
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,360
is like spinning off from what was a very manageable

709
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:31,360
and constructive you know, mission profile and Gladio. And I

710
00:45:31,519 --> 00:45:35,800
believe that was the earliest stuff that's super critical of Gladio.

711
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,559
It kind of got it kind of went into circulation

712
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:48,320
again during during uh the uh the premiership of of

713
00:45:48,639 --> 00:45:52,559
h who's the Italian guy who who likes the ladies

714
00:45:52,639 --> 00:45:57,920
and died his there and Sconi, Yeah yeah, he bro

715
00:45:58,039 --> 00:46:01,519
Leasconi was part of this weird like quasi Mason lodge

716
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,159
that people added like a bunch of these guys and

717
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,199
like they're like two thousand, like oh, that's that's part

718
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,320
of Gladio. So these kind of info wars type guys

719
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:14,280
and like other kind of people like that they started

720
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,920
strikling Aubot like Gladiol Like it's just like this big

721
00:46:17,039 --> 00:46:20,280
conspiracy like not, and like a lot of the content

722
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,880
they were dropping had come about in like the later

723
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:28,800
seventies as people were kind of like saying, like Gladio

724
00:46:29,039 --> 00:46:31,840
is a is a terrorist tendency and here's why I

725
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,639
like what's happening in Belfast. You know, look at these

726
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,320
cops who got blown up in Italy, Like look at

727
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,760
all these bad guys who are you know, they're fascists.

728
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,760
They they they got crazy ideas. They're sitting around reading

729
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:48,360
reading stressorus propaganda. That's kind of like what brought it

730
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:53,280
into and kind of into the into the conscious mind

731
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,760
of some of these people. And this is this is

732
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,920
actually important. You know, it's not I realized I got

733
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,880
like a strong research interest and things and like not

734
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:10,320
in Ireland. But that that that uh, that may that

735
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,519
it's significant what we're talking about. And you know, like

736
00:47:15,639 --> 00:47:19,559
I said too like as it later on, Yeah, after

737
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:25,800
Thierry was killed, you know this kind of third force

738
00:47:26,639 --> 00:47:34,199
in loyalist paramilitarism or third way rather third position in

739
00:47:34,599 --> 00:47:37,719
paramilitarism that kind of endured man. And like I said,

740
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,719
like I put Billy right in the camp even though

741
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,280
conditions were different by the time he became powerful on

742
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:52,199
the on the street. And uh, but this guy, uh

743
00:47:54,559 --> 00:47:58,559
Tierre's buddy was this guy named Sammy Duddy. And uh

744
00:47:59,199 --> 00:48:03,000
one of the there's a there's an there's a there's

745
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,440
a conflict resolution outreach center in Belfast like name from Duddy,

746
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,880
which is interesting. But he was a guy. He's a

747
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,519
guy with reputation, is like a thinker in the U

748
00:48:11,599 --> 00:48:14,119
d A. And a lot of these U d A

749
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,639
guys are very committed to their politics, but a lot

750
00:48:16,639 --> 00:48:18,880
of them are kind of like brawlers and like roughnecks

751
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:22,079
and and and like action oriented guys. They were the

752
00:48:22,159 --> 00:48:25,920
kinds of guys were prone to, like like discussing political

753
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:32,519
theory with you, you know, but you know, uh Tiri

754
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,239
and uh Duddy absolutely worth those kinds of guys as

755
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,320
well as being you know, very very very hard dudes.

756
00:48:41,119 --> 00:48:46,280
But that the uh Tiry. Uh he was one of

757
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,920
the guys who found to quote the new Ulster political

758
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:58,760
Research group. They they they became famous or within conflict

759
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:04,519
stuff the circles because they published this paper called uh

760
00:49:05,599 --> 00:49:10,199
Beyond the Beyond the Religious Divide and it reiterated the

761
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,519
call for an independent Ulster or at least like it

762
00:49:12,639 --> 00:49:16,719
devolved a truly devolved, uh colitical structure to be implemented,

763
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,840
and finding some way to make peace with the provos

764
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,599
and some sort of like organic capacity which was really

765
00:49:28,199 --> 00:49:34,400
which was really which was really interesting, I think, but

766
00:49:34,559 --> 00:49:42,639
that uh you know, he this is this this really

767
00:49:44,199 --> 00:49:45,559
if you look at people want to know about, like

768
00:49:45,639 --> 00:49:49,280
what the real world impact was of Gladio and whatnot.

769
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,679
Like that's I mean, beyond the fact there's a series

770
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,559
of insane murders in Belgium that people think was Gladio adjacent.

771
00:49:57,679 --> 00:50:00,519
I don't think that's the case. We get talk about

772
00:50:00,559 --> 00:50:04,039
that in another I've i think playing with the idea

773
00:50:04,079 --> 00:50:07,079
of doing some content unlike the big like conspiracy theories,

774
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:09,880
like the things that always the ones that always think

775
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,000
are worth addressing, you know, and and aren't just like stupid.

776
00:50:13,559 --> 00:50:15,840
But that would be the time to take up something

777
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:20,519
like that. But that's that's basically what I have on Gladio, man.

778
00:50:20,559 --> 00:50:23,440
And then like it's just like as an addendum or

779
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:30,519
an epilogue, you know this people gotta understand too, you know,

780
00:50:30,599 --> 00:50:35,159
the original mandate of special operations forces. It wasn't to

781
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,199
train Navy seals to be like direct action super commandos

782
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:45,320
you know who who deployed the landlocked countries and get

783
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,239
on target of individual guys who are thought to be

784
00:50:49,519 --> 00:50:53,119
you know, teleban operatives and like penetrate our targets and

785
00:50:53,159 --> 00:50:55,239
then kill them. That's like not what they were for,

786
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:01,199
like special operations forces. As Kennedy envisioned it as a

787
00:51:01,519 --> 00:51:04,920
William Odom who was very much big army, but as

788
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,880
he you know, he had he was he was instrumental

789
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,480
in native war planning. The way he envisioned in their

790
00:51:10,559 --> 00:51:15,079
role in the force structure, it was when Warsaw Pact

791
00:51:15,119 --> 00:51:19,599
overruns us, we're gonna we're gonna parachute or glide in.

792
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,719
You guys who look like the people in theater and

793
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:28,400
talk their language are gonna click up with these gladiol

794
00:51:28,519 --> 00:51:31,480
guys on the ground and you're gonna train them on

795
00:51:31,559 --> 00:51:34,599
how to do things operationally, and you're gonna lead them,

796
00:51:34,679 --> 00:51:37,840
and you're basically gonna play Red Dawn in occupied West

797
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:42,159
Germany or in Italy. Like that was the idea. You know,

798
00:51:43,159 --> 00:51:45,320
it took time for this is gonna develop into a

799
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,079
mainstream idea and like by the late eighties, like yeah,

800
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,119
that everybody took it for granted. But this was viewed

801
00:51:52,159 --> 00:51:57,719
as weird and crazy and dangerous and shady pretty much

802
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,440
by everybody. And that's one of the reason it's greens

803
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,679
like nowadays, like the spare punked of the of the

804
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:10,280
Army of Special Operations Forces until the nineties, people like

805
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,639
the green berets as you're a weirdo, you like killing people,

806
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,000
you're probably a fascist, and you're creepy, and you will

807
00:52:17,079 --> 00:52:20,679
never get promoted above like colonel probably. That's that's not

808
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:22,800
just like something in Rambo movies. That was like the

809
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:28,760
way it was okay, and it wasn't clear like how

810
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,440
in a general war this would actually develop, because it

811
00:52:32,559 --> 00:52:36,320
never you never know when you have a novel concept,

812
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,000
don't get me wrong, Like this, this idea respecial offers

813
00:52:39,039 --> 00:52:42,639
forces was absolutely correct. That was a very forward looking

814
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:46,679
idea and it was a very ballsy idea, and it

815
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:52,920
was absolutely the way uh, you know, Army Command Europe

816
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:57,679
should have been looking at things. But uh, it was

817
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:03,679
not something that people felt comfortable with. And of course

818
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:05,800
there was a concern too, like what if these guys

819
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:11,840
like go native, which was entirely possible, okay, But that's

820
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,760
that's where a lot of this kind of strange uh

821
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,920
stuff came from in terms of cap about Gladio of

822
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,000
being this conspiracy. I mean, part of was this typical,

823
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:29,159
typical lefty stuff about oh, the government is actually fascist

824
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:31,360
and doing all these bad things, like the government is

825
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,400
terrible things. But it's not because they're like secret fascists

826
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:38,360
or something, obviously, but the a lot of the concern

827
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:40,760
about this kind of stuff, that's where it came from.

828
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:46,679
But it did despite the fact that you know, World

829
00:53:46,679 --> 00:53:51,360
War three and never came there was a direct impact

830
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:59,159
on the politics of Europe and even in conflict zones

831
00:53:59,199 --> 00:54:05,199
like Northern Ireland, and and those guys who constituted that

832
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,719
the core of these tendencies that came up with Gladio,

833
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,039
we they are part of what we are. I mean,

834
00:54:13,079 --> 00:54:16,760
if you if you're somebody who you know is finds

835
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,039
common cause with me. I mean I'm not I'm not

836
00:54:19,039 --> 00:54:21,480
speaking for anybody else, you know when I say we,

837
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,559
But you know, so that's you've got to know. You've

838
00:54:25,559 --> 00:54:30,119
got to know your own heritage, not just you know, uh,

839
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,519
in terms of ethnos and and and your familiar lore

840
00:54:33,639 --> 00:54:37,360
and your your your race and nationality, like you've got

841
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:41,119
to know, like where are these ideas that you commit

842
00:54:41,159 --> 00:54:43,719
to or come from? And that's part of it. I

843
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,800
hope that wasn't to scattershot, like I said, I don't know.

844
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:47,800
I think we can wrap up now because I don't

845
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,719
frankly have much else and I'm not feeling good, so

846
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:51,239
forgive me.

847
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, not a problem. I have two questions. Yeah, One,

848
00:54:56,079 --> 00:54:58,960
were you thinking of Mark du Treu when you talked

849
00:54:58,960 --> 00:54:59,840
about the serial killer?

850
00:55:00,599 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 2: He's he's another one who's also affiliated with that. No,

851
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,920
it's these guys in Belgium. They pulled these high incident

852
00:55:07,079 --> 00:55:10,239
robberies where they'd store them like a grocery store or

853
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,519
something like, not even like a tournament made set. They'd say,

854
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,280
this is a robbery. Empty your pockets. Then they take

855
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:19,800
like the manager and make them open the safe and

856
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,440
they take like like like you quote him, like three

857
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:28,000
hundred dollars or something. Then they'd kill everybody and witnesses

858
00:55:28,079 --> 00:55:30,800
that'd see them like loading into this van. And it

859
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:35,559
was guys with like glocks and h and k's and

860
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:41,960
stare like like military weapons, like wearing gloves, who were

861
00:55:42,039 --> 00:55:45,239
like in shape, and it's like these guys are killing

862
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:50,199
like five, they're catching murder liability for five bodies to

863
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,039
steal like a few hundred dollars. And they did this

864
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,840
like six or seven times, like they were never identified.

865
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,639
But guys doing that kind of stuff like god like

866
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,840
like three to six guys and show up in like

867
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:06,480
military gear with like balaklavas or ski masks. This is

868
00:56:06,519 --> 00:56:09,719
a robbery. No one's gonna get hurt. But then they

869
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:14,119
kill everybody and a lot of people like these guys

870
00:56:14,159 --> 00:56:17,239
were gladiooperatives, you know, trying to scare people. But it's

871
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:18,840
like why would they be doing that. It's not like

872
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,639
subsequently the government of Belgium's like this is martial law.

873
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,559
It was just like they were doing this and nobody

874
00:56:25,639 --> 00:56:28,320
knew why the government was being weird about it. Definitely

875
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:31,079
said people are like, oh no, they were just training

876
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,599
for you know, like on Target direct the action mission.

877
00:56:33,639 --> 00:56:35,840
It's like, that's not any train people. And if they're

878
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:37,960
gonna do that, you know what you do or what

879
00:56:38,079 --> 00:56:40,719
you would do. You'd say, this is a trap house.

880
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,320
See if you guys can get in there kill everybody

881
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:46,239
and not die, like that's how you do it. You

882
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,639
would say there's some pensioners and like women and kids

883
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,719
shopping for groceries like shoot them. Oh, and nobody has

884
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,079
any weapons like that. That doesn't make any sense. But

885
00:56:57,840 --> 00:56:59,719
I'm not feeling well, so I'm having some brain fog.

886
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,960
But I'll do chose another one though, and that that

887
00:57:03,079 --> 00:57:04,480
case also makes like no sense.

888
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,079
Speaker 1: But all right, well then I'll let you. I'll let

889
00:57:08,119 --> 00:57:11,519
you get going here. Yeah, just do quick plugs.

890
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:16,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, thank you, Pete. I've got a lot of

891
00:57:16,079 --> 00:57:19,239
content in the can from my pod and people like

892
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:24,159
my homie Jefferson Lee and my friend Anthony Ramondo. They've

893
00:57:24,199 --> 00:57:27,559
been like helping me with all this stuff, which is awesome.

894
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,320
So there's a lot of fresh stuff on my substack

895
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:33,880
where the that's where the podcast is and other good stuff.

896
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,320
It's real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com.

897
00:57:38,079 --> 00:57:43,960
I'm on social media at real capital r E A

898
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:50,960
L underscore number seven lowercase h O M A S

899
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:57,400
seven seven seven. I'm on t gram and Instagram. My

900
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,360
dear friend here at Kraig. He puts out like random

901
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,320
merge that we make because just like stuff that I

902
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:04,880
think it's cool because I'm kind of like a T

903
00:58:05,039 --> 00:58:09,079
shirt guy and like a close guy, if you'd include that,

904
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,039
like in the descriptions. I can never remember like what

905
00:58:12,239 --> 00:58:17,000
the what the website is, but yeah, that's so where

906
00:58:17,039 --> 00:58:20,360
I'm at, and I promise I'll be better in a

907
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,079
few days. And again, forgive me if this wasn't up

908
00:58:23,119 --> 00:58:23,599
to snuff.

909
00:58:23,679 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: Man, No, this is all good. This was uh, this

910
00:58:27,159 --> 00:58:31,519
was good. There was a lot there. I'll include everything

911
00:58:31,599 --> 00:58:32,639
that you you asked.

912
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,679
Speaker 2: All right, that's a great thing. If all right, talks in.

913
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:36,119
Thanks