Speaker 1: Hello, lazy and gentlemen, Welcome back to another episode of
geek Verse podcast. I am a one year host. Is
that a monkey? Taylor Field? And I'm joined by.
Speaker 2: Hey, I'm anna Mark Caster Dilmas.
Speaker 1: Yes, unfortunately we lost our one of our own in
the arena in the coliseum.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, we wouldn't have it any other way than a
duel here between. Well, we'll see if me and you
are allies or adversaries on this podcast. My thoughts, I guess.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, because we're talking gladiator to spoilers
of you. But before we get to that, a couple
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Be sure to check this out on Patreon, where we
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legendary folks that are on our Patreon Producer Tier, You
guys are fantastic, April of Darkness, Aaron Braiden, Jack Grant, Mud, Sam,
Super Bad, Mic God Loves Me sixty nine, Jeremy Reyner
Detall you folks are fantastic. Love you all, help keep
the lights on. So what else do we got going
on here? We did a side quest, inn't we? Dylan,
me and you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look at us to two man casts in a week.
I feel like it's been a bit since that's happened,
but it's been a bit.
Speaker 1: It's been a bit. Yes, what else do we got
going on right now? Being Kirkly going to be dropping
ed Daredevil sees one retrospective that'll be dropping. I'm excited
to chat about. That's gonna be dropping early on the
Patreon and then it should be dropping. I think probably
we're slating it for just very early December on the
public feeds, so stay tuned for that. What do we
got We're going in December? So we've got a lot
of other stuff that we're going to be reviewing. We've
got like Sonic three and other movies that are coming
our way, and I think we got Skeleton Crew, Star Wars,
and we got Creature Commandos as well, DC's show. So
lots of stuff that's going to be populating on our feed.
It's gonna be a great time. No Wicked review unless
you're doing that, Dylan, absolutely not. Yeah, So there's that uh,
comic things in the chat. I don't know where Travis
went to. You know what, he's He's in the arena somewhere.
He's in one of those coliseums. I'm not sure. But
you answered him. Oh, you answered him perfect. I didn't
even can't.
Speaker 2: I don't know if maybe I just spilled the beans.
We'll see.
Speaker 1: No, I think you're safe.
Speaker 2: He'll be back, he'll be back. He's on the Yeah,
Kirkland's just sick tonight. He got poisoned. So hopefully he
didn't actually get poisoned. I'm making a glady of reference.
He should be back in a few days.
Speaker 1: He should be hopefully. Yeah, he's probably sounding like I
sounded a few days ago, just not you transferred.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you gave him the sickness.
Speaker 1: Gave him the sickness. Yeah. Oh, but I mean speaking
of uh yeah, sicknesses and poisonings and all that. What
Dylan was your non spoilers thoughts going into this movie.
Speaker 2: Uh, well, going into this movie, I had no nonspoilersots.
But when I was out of the movie, Taylor oh Man,
much like Banana, I am split on this one. I
have so many thoughts and I feel like I'm gonna
be all over the place, so bear with me here.
And I think this is also a tricky one for
me to talk about non spoilers, why so I'll give
some more maybe hopefully coherent thoughts when we get to
that section of the podcast. But this is a really
interesting time, you know, especially compared to Beetlejuice two, which
we watched earlier this year, which to me was like
exactly what I want from a legacy sequel, even though
I didn't watch that movie until earlier. This see as well,
which is the same thing here for Gladiator, and so
I feel like going into this I kind of was
expecting to really build off the events of the first
one in a big way and it was really throwing
me off that I feel like the first out of
this half of this movie is not doing that whatsoever.
And for most of this movie, even down to the end,
I feel like this this feels almost like a soft
reboot or a remake to some extent. And obviously we
are building off the characters and the time has passed,
we're like sixteen years later or whatever it is, but
just in terms of the that the story beats the
pacing even down to like the pacing of the battles.
It feels so onto one to that original movie. So
even though it's not a retelling of the story in
the exact same way, just the characters that are new
and introduced here feel like they're just trying to fit
into that exact same mold as that first film. Or
maybe they'll take one character and kind of split their
traits into two characters, so we can break down all
the details of that. But it was kind of throwing
me off, and it was disappointing, Like I kind of
wanted more of an evolution or something new and fresh
and different, and I didn't really feel like I was
getting that for most of this. And then I like,
when we get towards the end of the movie, it's
like nostalgia bait headquarters, like just hucking, like shooting arrows
at my face of nostalgia and I'm just taking too
many at the same time. So it was a very
it was a very just huge rush between the two
and huge change, and I think overall like the movie
feels like that too in terms of just my general
thoughts of it. Once I kind of got over what
the movie was, now it is kind of meeting it
where it was. I feel like it's it's quite mixed
as well. It's split in that same way where there
are some characters that are really, really, really well written.
I think my favorite character across these two movies is
in here. I'm really excited to talk about that character,
and then other ones feel much more flat than I
was expecting or hoping, especially using once again that comparison
of their counterpart from the first one. I think that
the battles are better shot this time around. I think
some of the stakes or the flow of them isn't
as good as the first one, but overall, I think
the battles are are pretty good. The visuals look great.
There's no like janky Well there's a couple of yanky
CGI moments, but nothing to nothing too egregious. Uh and
and yeah, I think that's maybe all i want to
say in the non spoilers way. I'm I'm very mixed
on this one. I don't even know where I'm gonna
be for a number of reviewer rating or a feeling
at the end until we really break it down some
more through the process of this review. And I'm really
really excited to see just in the discord and elsewhere
a letter box I guess just see other people in
our community to see their thoughts on this, because I
do feel like this is gonna be a mixed reaction
to this movie. Overall. I think there's gonna be people
who absolutely love it because as a popcorn flick turn
your brain off, I think it succeeds really well. Then
I think when you maybe pick it apart, it crumbles
a little bit. We'll see if I'm alone in that thought.
So I'm excited to see those other people's thoughts. But Taylor,
what are your thoughts? I gotta hear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel a little split as well with this
because on one side of the room you have a
ton of action and a ton of really awesome choographed
battles and sequences that I was definitely engaging with and
I was really enjoying. And then on the other side
you have this the story and the characters where I
feel like the characters, even our main character, where I
feel like he is at the start he's one person
and at the end he's kind of become this person,
which I wasn't expecting him, Like he just they set
him up to become something different, and at the end
it's just like, oh, no, he's just this is what
this is what they're doing with the care that's it,
and it's like, well, that just kind of defeats what
he was standing for on what his idea ideologies were
at the beginning of the film. It just kind of
conflicted with his development a little bit. So that pulls
me out of it. But I like how you said
it kind of feels like a soft reboot and at
the same time because they're trying to redo a few
things I guess and kind of backtrack a little bit
on how they did things with the story of the
first one. And the downside is I feel like this
movie was a bit predictable because it's just the way
it starts, and then as things progress, it's like, well,
this is almost like seen like seen by scene of
what the first one was doing. And not that that's
necessarily a bad thing, because like you said, there's gonna
be people that are just eating this stuff. They're gonna
be enjoying it, and I can see I can take
it in for what it is, and I'm not saying
it's like, oh, this is a terrible movie. It's just
something that I think I need to sit on a
little bit more and talk about because yeah, it's just
it has very similar story beats to that first one,
and maybe that's just them trying to play it safe
and try to stick with what they know and what
they're doing. I was hoping that'd be a little bit
more bolder and a little more bigger, because I really
did like what we saw in the trailers with again
the action scenes and everything in the coliseum, which that
stuff is just great. It's fantastic, and they up the
ante from what they did in the first one in
this one. There's some things I want to bring up
again the spoilers, like I don't know how like if
this is I'm not a historian, so I don't know
how historically accurate some of these things are. But what
they just did of trying to wrap my head around,
like is that even like is that possible? Do they
really do that back then? That's just crazy. But we'll
see when we get into spoilers. Yeah, So I think
I'll just shout out Pedro always fantastic. Oh my goodness,
he was great in this and unexpected to. I didn't
actually know or anticipate what was going to be going
down with his character, and so I really did enjoy
him his development and just yeah, his character in general.
Really really liked that. It was actually a big surprise
in how he was introduced and where he kind of
like headed off in his development.
Speaker 2: I got a non spoilers question for you about his character.
What's his accent in this movie? Because I feel like
half the time he's like American. Half the time he's
doing like pronouncing things in like a British way, or
he's Mandalorian.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm telling My sof was.
Speaker 2: All over the place. I love patro but I was like,
I don't know, I don't know what his choice was
here for an accent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's hard, too hard to pinpoint because I
feel like there was a few people they had very
very different accents. I guess, yeah.
Speaker 2: I feel like there's not really a consistency to it,
Like you know, in the casting too, just getting people
from all over the world, you know you're gonna kind
of have some mixing there unless everyone's like a total
expert at this stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is there anything else you have? Non spoilers so
you want to showcase.
Speaker 2: You know, maybe just one quick mention here is I
feel like the music I didn't notice in this movie. Yeah,
which is funny because as we talked about in that retro,
like going back to that and being like, wow, Pirates
just totally ripped off the same well, it was the
same composer, but just totally ripped off the exact same theme.
It was funny going into this, and I feel like
this movie was trying to distance itself from that, which,
as we talked about in the retro, is like it'd
be hard if they just use the same theme, but
now people just know it as the Pirates theme. But instead,
I don't feel like I noticed any track or any
theme or any music across this whole thing. I don't
know how you felt about that, but it just it
just felt a little more generic this time around, even
if it did feel maybe a bit generic because it
felt like it was copying something that came out later, But.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree. I can't see this really being
in the running for any score awards or anything like
that because there isn't really anything. There was just the
odd beat that was pulled from the original movie, like
like on a Marcus Aurelius kind of theme or something
like that that I felt like, but they're very short bits.
It was like it'd be like a thirty second audio clips,
like oh yeah, I think that beat was from like
the first movie, but nothing that was really making this
kind of stand up on its own and giving it
its own originality. And yeah, it's just something unfortunately, very
forgettable because I can't recall any like fantastic musical sequences
in this movie at all, just a lot of like
clashing and clanging and screaming.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I mean I think it was a
rock and a hard place in terms of reusing that
theme from the first one, So they kind of just
had to go a different direction. And I don't know,
maybe on a rewatch, if I'm listening on Spotify, I
will stand out more. But something I didn't when I
got out, I was like, oh, yeah, I don't feel
like I noticed any music at all. I know it
was there, but I can't say I noticed it. Yeah,
I think it's all I have for non spoiler thoughts here.
Speaker 1: That's all I got, I guess in closing. For me,
when I went into the theater, it was pretty light.
There wasn't a lot of people. Now I knew that
there were the role I wanted. I knew that there
were two seats taken dead center, and I, you know,
I was going to go there, but I couldn't get
it because other people had them. So I did two
seats over uh from that spot the center of my row.
And so when I sat there, I thought, Okay, well
those people never showed up, but I'm just gonna sit
in my seat. And then the movie starts for like
five minutes, and then a whole group of people come
in and they sit down and it's like they got
the whole row, but I'm pulling a Travis here. They
sit like right next to me, which you know, in retrospect,
it's kind of okay because I was going to see
this by myself. But I felt like, you know what,
I got some like make not make believe friends, but
I got some like temporary friends here to enjoy this
movie with.
Speaker 2: It's like the audience in the coliseum, that's right.
Speaker 1: That's right. There were two little little kids, little boys
in the very front row with their dad and they
had the one kid had to have been under ten
years old, and I thought, man, that's a that's a
bold choice to bring.
Speaker 2: Yours getting chopped. Yeah, crazy stuff.
Speaker 1: There's some definite crazy stuff, some close up shots of things,
but uh yeah, I'm not planning to do that with
my kid anytime soon. But you know, to each his
zone if you want to, you know, show them this
taesostrone of a feature, then be my guest.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not gonna stop them.
Speaker 1: They really want that's right. Yeah, Okay, we are going
to get into some spoilers after this quick ad break,
so we'll be right back. And we are back. So
where do we want to start?
Speaker 2: Well, I I feel like I've been doing this. I've
been pulling kirklingly. I just want to start at the beginning.
But I did want to ask about that because they
start this movie opens up with, well, I forget what
happens first, whether it's kind of like the ai n
h mon dollars thing that's going on of like the
first movie, or if it's the crawl. I think it's yeah,
I think it goes in that order, not really crawl,
but it's just like you know three, you know, a
couple a little paragraph worth of information of like here's
what's happened between the events of the first movie and this,
and that honestly immediately put like a very bad taste
in my mouth. I was like, Okay, sixteen years have
passed and you know what, the events of the first movie,
it don't really matter because some bad guys came in
and now they're running Rome and here you go, welcome
to the movie. So I didn't like that at all
because I feel like it really takes away from like
Maximus's journey in the first movie. You know, I get
that this is Rome. There's people constantly going for the throne,
going for the assassinations. But I feel like, as an audience,
we need to see some of that or feel like
what our hero did in the first movie is is leading,
is like gonna have some positive consequences and it and
it doesn't. And then I feel like by the end
of the movie, we're kind of bringing some of the
Maximus stuff back and it's like, Okay, I guess it's
maybe a full circle moment.
Speaker 1: But I was.
Speaker 2: I was immediately thrown off, and it took me like
a half an hour before I was like, Okay, I've cooled.
I'm no longer enraged that they did this, and then
I could like see the movie where I was at. So,
how did you feel about just like those opening lines
of dialogue or just written lines.
Speaker 1: Even so, I think the intro getting the kind of
like painted flashbacks the first movie, I thought that was
very cool. That was gonna be hyped up. But yeah,
once we got the brief little opening crawl there where
it was just talking about, yeah, six sixteen years has passed,
I believe, and twin emperors have taken over, and Maximus's
dream has kind of just been forgotten. It's like sixteen
years and his dream has been forgotten. Fuck, that's not good.
Sixteen years. I guess he's sixty years, but sixteen Jesus.
So that was definitely a little bit of a a
little bit of a set back, and it in retrospect
to what really bothers me, is they This is kind
of jumping ahead. It shows when Lucius is being sent
away right after Maximus dies in the arena, and then
Lucilla takes I think her Lucilla, right, Yeah, it takes
Lucius is like, Okay, we need to get you out
of here because people are gonna be coming to assassinate.
You see a little bit of insight there. But it's
funny because the scene right before that is Maximus saying
Lucius is safe and then Lucia is like, people are
gonna be coming to kill you. We couldn't get you
out of a year. It's like, well, that's kind of
a little bit like counterpartive, and the way they're telling
this story, it's a little weird. So Maximus is really
just like he died thinking everything was peachy and no, no,
it's just it was worse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he died. He died for nothing, seemingly. Uh, And
it's kind of a it's kind of weird because as
we as we just mentioned, like, yeah, I kind of
near the end of the movie, like the Dream of
Maximus is kind of back where Lucius is like, I'm
I am the son of Maximus, and that seems to
inspire people. But I kind of feel like what inspired
them more was the death of Acacious, of Pedro Pascal's
character and then him being like, is this what you want?
Your heroes are shot down?
Speaker 1: Whatever?
Speaker 2: Whatever he says that like monologue there that seems to
fire up the people because right after that, I mean, one,
people are fighting in the stands, throwing throwing fists with
the guards and the and their bow and arrows there, uh,
but then also in the streets after that there's there's
the whole uh, there's riots going on, and then it
seems like it just kind of cools unknowing, I don't
really know why it cool that. I don't know if
we were just cutting to use scenes where people were
in quiet places.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: And then and then we kind of get into the
finale of the movie, so we don't really get resolution
on like the people of Rome, because we don't really
know much about Rome as a people in this you know,
we just we just get like the one percent pretty
much in this movie, just get like the higher ups.
So yeah, it was kind of a weird choice. And
as you mentioned too, and once again, as I talked
about I'm gonna go be going everywhere on this review,
is that's how I feel with this movie. That that
Lucilla think really bothered me as well, because I feel
like she she's putting her son presumably somewhere safe to
keep him safe, but like also has no idea where
she's sending him, and then has no way to contact
him or retrieve him as she's like still in the
know with everyone going and she knows that like Rome
is just actively going around killing societies, presumably killing a
society of a place that she knowingly sent her son, Like,
there's a lot of questions that I have in terms
of why she would do that, and it's like, well,
he could have just died there at any second, in
any one of these places. So it feels like, well,
wouldn't you have been safer in Rome near you? Or
you actually like no people instead of just sending them
off to me in the middle of nowhere. So I
didn't honestly, the use of Lucill in this movie. I
think it was very weak and not a great evolution
of what her character was in the first one, considering
that she's one of the very few people that actually
comes back, like Lucius comes back, but it's a different actor,
but we get her and Gracus I think, or like
the two actors that come back that I can think
of off the top of my head. So yeah, I
was not a big fan of her decision making there,
and it's not a really fleshed out decision, Like that's
the thing. I wonder if there's maybe a like deleted
scene or two that explore her decision to do that more.
But as you mentioned, like the first movie, that's it
kind of feels like a legacy sequel where they expect
the audience to have not watched the movie in twenty years,
and so they're not paying close attention to like the
choices or words or things that were done or said
in that first movie. More just having that foggy twenty
year old memory of it right and go to the movie,
which is a weird problem. It's a hard problem to solve,
I think as a filmmaker when you're trying to appease
both audiences like hardware fans, people are rewatching it, or
just nostalgic people. So yeah, it's hard to make those decisions.
But I didn't love what they did with her character overall.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I would agree with that for sure. It's yeah,
she's just uh, everything that they were doing with that
kind of narrative. It really does undo just a lot
of the established narrative in the first one, And I
just don't buy it because I feel like in the
end of that first one, like if they had they
had things secure, Commonists was out and they basically had
Maximus's army. I'm pretty sure was like storming in there eventually,
so the Senate was in control. They had Maximus's army,
they had. The Preatorians were also on their side too,
so everyone was on her side, but no, she still
felt threatened that basically she had to get Lucius out
of there. And again, it's just very weird because Lucius
has this first encounter with her and is basically like,
I don't remember, I don't know who you are, I
don't remember anything, and you know I'm paraphrasing, but he's like,
fuck Rome, and all of a sudden he cares about
Roman turning Rome into what it can be, and he
wants to be the emperor and all this stuff, and
it's like, well, that's just very weird writing at this point.
Why is he kind of betraying his his his ideals
as I mentioned before the non spoilers too, and again
I understand that he had his wife, he loved his wife.
And then you have Pedro's character come in and Patrio's
character reluctantly is taking over the city execute gets the
wife executor killed, and the heat of combat, I feel
like they're kind of, oh, like kiss and make up
kind of session, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
It was not. It was way too rushed, and then
it just cuts to Pedro just being bor mirrored like crazy.
Speaker 2: So my god, Bormere times seven he absolutely devoured. Yeah,
I'm totally with you. I think some of that stuff
was really messy, and as you mentioned, like I feel like, uh,
we'll make a lot of these comparisons of like, oh,
here's this character from Gladator one and here's what they
do with Gladator two. And I feel like the character
of Maximus, they kind of split into Acacius and Lucius
and kind of had all the elements of what Maximus is,
you know, in terms of like, oh, the wife dying,
turning into this vengeful story to go back against Rome,
being put you know, back through the gladiator thing, and
having to go through on that whole journey. A lot
of that stuff is like very similar in One to one,
and even though it's kind of split into those two characters.
But I feel like one of the things with Maximus
and the Physician, some of the tough decisions he has
early on in that movie in the first one, is
that the king really trusts him and wants him to
be the next successor because not just because he's a
good fighter, but because he's been around he has a
lot of knowledge on like the political side, and he
would be a good leader and he's a good person.
The king feels he's a good person. But Lucius like, like,
as this movie's going along and getting to the end,
I feel like it gets pretty messy, and I'm like,
who are we supposed to be rooting for as a viewer,
because like, I kind of hate everyone in Rome. They
all suck everyone in these other societies. They're all like
slave owners and shitty as well. And then like, okay,
so I'm supposed to believe that Lucius is gonna come
in and he's gonna change Rome, but he doesn't like anything.
I guess he was a kid there and he like
when he when he was a kid, he was there
with communists and Lucilla and he was maybe learning some stuff,
but he was like eight or something at the time,
right or would they say eight or ten or twelve
when he twelve twelve? Yeah, yeah, twelve when he got
kicked away. So it's not like he was, you know,
gaining a ton of political knowledge at that time. I
feel like he was more just being babied and coddled
so much so that Lucy will sent him away. But
when he potentially was in danger. But it's like, I
don't I don't believe, especially after watching the first movie
and Maximus was this great leader that people loved, and
even though he died, it was still like, Okay, everyone
was wanting to make a better room for him, and
that didn't happen clearly as we saw with that crawl,
just kind of overwriting that information. But I'm I supposed
to believe that Lucius is going to come in and
with no like political knowledge, he doesn't know how any
of that stuff works. He's just a raw fighter and
he has no allies at this point, Like people are
gonna work for him, but he doesn't really have any
friends anymore. Like he's gonna lead a better room, yeah, right,
Like he's gonna be the He's gonna be usurped in
like a five second and then it's gonna be the
same fate. So I just feel like by the end
of the movie, I was like, I don't really know
what to root for it. I don't think it really
matters root for because the first movie, the people were
reading for one and I mean someone you know, some
of them died in the process. They won, and none
of it really seemed to matter anyway. So I feel
like Gladiator three, it's gonna be like, within two months,
Rome was overthrown by a new evil government. It's gonna
last much, much less than sixteen years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my goodness, I think you nailed that comparison
between Lucius and I keep forgetting Pedro's name. Araxus.
Speaker 2: Is that a kakius? I don't know if it's cacacious
or acacious, Like it's a C A.
Speaker 1: C I U s. Yeah, sounds like an acacious called Pedro.
That works. Pedro. Yeah, Pedro So Pedro and Lucius characters.
They are definitely like a combination of what Maximus was
in that first one. It's this is where I thought, okay,
things are really paralleling that first film, because you get
again the opening sequence being this big battle, just like
we had the first one, and you got your commander,
your general I guess, uh, Pedro. And this is where
it expedites because all of a sudden, Pedro goes back home.
He's in Rome and he, you know, has a bit
of engaging with the Emperor's like I want to retire,
and they're like no, no, no, we got Persia, Africa, India,
all to conquer these places. He's like okay, and then
he goes home and he's like, I can't take it anymore.
My army is going to be here in ten days
and we're taken over. Like holy shit, this is the
ending that of glad. You're one with a Maximus hat
as a plan, and I'm thinking, okay, well, we already
know what's going to happen here. The plan is going
to go sideways. There's no way it's going to work out.
Even in his death. I guess the plan still happens
because the army is still showing up. But you're I mean,
I feel like you're right, because you were saying that
he had definitely had more implications on things that we're
going on than Lucius did. Lucius just happened to be
there to kill Denzel and was like, just he just
gave a speech, and I don't know, there are like
there's eleven thousand people on this battlefield, and only that
the like the front line of fifty are going to
hear what he's saying and the other ones aren't gonna
know and just be kind of confused.
Speaker 2: Right, So I know I wonder that too, when they're
like making speeches in the Colosseum, and like it seems
like it's designed to have really good acoustics, so even
if they're not speaking into some like trombone thing that's
gonna or a microphone that's gonna shoot it out, Like
I guess people can still hear when Pedro's like very
quietly giving a speech. I don't know I'm supposed to
believe that, but yeah, to your point, like in the
middle of a battlefield when it looks really windy too,
Like I don't think any of them can hear, So
it's like gonna be the people in the front who
hear it, and then they kind of whisper it to
the people in the back, and it's like a game
of telephone with the people in the back just hear
like a very distorted version of what it actually is.
But yeah, it's odd that, like, Okay, the power of
Rome at this point is they say there's six thousand
soldiers in Rome ready to go. It's the Roman army,
but then like Acacius's army is five thousand, so it's
like a very close amount, and they're just like out
chilling at like some camp, you know, like a dayly
I don't know what they do. I guess they just
sit around until Acasius comes back and orders them to
go kill like some new society. But if not, they're
just kind of sitting around. It's it's kind of odd.
Maybe that's the way it was historically. I don't know,
but it is a bit odd pacing wise, when you're
kind of getting set up for this huge, big battle.
I didn't expect there would be a big battle at
the end. I thought it would kind of end amicably,
and it did. But I guess that's a slight difference
because in glad Eater one, we do get that army
kind of arriving to Rome, right, and then then the
coup kind of gets overthrown. So it works a little
bit differently than it does in the first movie, at
least a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I have to say, like that sequence was
freaking awesome just to see visually, just to see the
Preatorian army, like six thousand troops just coming out of
Rome and over the hill side you see like five
thousands like Roman legionaires coming. It's like, holy shit, Like
I know they're not gonna fight, and I don't need
them to fight, but just to see this setup. I
got big like rts, like total lashbacks, like oh yeah,
it's like total war like strong crusaders just setting up
like the armies and just seeing them, and I was like, oh,
this is just like so cool just to see this
right now, which again like another positive, like just a
testament to the the intro battle like Gladiator Won. That
is such an iconic opening sequence with that fight scene,
but the one that we got here with the naval
combat was just that was something else. And I'm just
I'm watching this this engagement unfold and I'm just thinking
in my head, like again I'm not a historian, but
to see the organization and to see I don't know
how accurate, but I'm I'm I could probably confidently say
that this is probably pretty accurate to the way that
they detailed the ships and the siege equipment, to just
how the Romans were just coming in and just their
their power and their practicalness, and oh my god, it
was just to It's just something that I feel like
it's a shame that we kind of forget about this,
like we look at this and this is a part
of our history, like how it's horrible and it's brutal.
It's war and chaos and bloody and everything bad. But
the the it's gonna sound weird, the brilliance of it,
and just how organized they were and just how they
had this equipment, like they got boats with siege towers
on them with the rams dropping down, and like just
how they.
Speaker 2: Were, Like how big like a pirate ship type boat
can be. Yeah, Like so you play skull and Bones
and then.
Speaker 1: You yeah, it's just it's so it's so cool to
just like behold and just a witness. I think that's
where a movie like this is just this is great
on the big screen because you can really just like
take it in for legs, like the sheer like chaos
and the awesomeness that is portrayed. That was that some
of the SIEGEI that was kind of like a con
for you at the start there.
Speaker 2: No, honestly, that first battle, the siege of the city, No, no,
it's it's perfect. I think it was so much fun.
It was a Lord of the Rings scale battle for me.
It even had like I always talk about with the
Lord of the Rings. But I just love the phases
of it. And so you have the boats coming in
and then like the trebuchets, the catapults all firing off,
and then yeah, like the siege, like they assemble the tower,
kind of live there, break the bridge down. The bridge
isn't working. Pedro runs around. He's the only one apparently
strong enough to slash a rope, so he does that,
and then they fly into the city and then there's
archers up on the wall and they all start firing it. Oh,
get them up on the wall, and then we turned
the battle out that way, like it was so much fun.
I love that sequence. I think my CGI issues are
just like mostly the monkeys and the monkeys and the
in that one arena looked a little CGI monkey.
Speaker 1: I don't know what.
Speaker 2: I don't even know what they again, they called the monkeys,
but I've never seen a monkey like that before. That's
like an ancient Roman monkey, for sure. It's like a
closer to a hyena than a monkey.
Speaker 1: But it was.
Speaker 2: It was terrifying, but it was also like very very CGI.
That that was kind of my main beef with some
of these animals. But yeah, I think that battle looked fantastic.
The lighting of it as well. I think it was great.
Just the look of the city, the look of the boats,
and even just the really sad end of it where
you have all the prisoners captives just kind of all
sitting out on the side, and then they just have
like a sea of bodies like they it looks like
a pond or like a small lake or something like that,
and then they just throw the torches in and just
burn all the bodies at once. As you said, really
really terrifying and a scary thought. That's like, man, that
those kind of things happened on this earth, you know,
one hundred thousands of years ago. But yeah, it's it
was a super duper well done Battlely, I think I
think that one was awesome and it's funny. How once
again that as you mentioned, like the Germania battle is
kind of the biggest scale battle in the first movie,
and so that they followed that. I feel like in general,
the battles follow very much the same rubric or template
as that first movie of starting with the big Germania battle,
you get the smaller arena outside Rome, you get that
battle there, a smaller scale one, and then you get
the Roman battle that's like a replication of a battle
that happened elsewhere, and then you have the battle between
just two guys and then you have some chaos at
the end. So it very much follows that that same
battle and like intensity structure as that as the first
movie did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, I'm gonna take a shot in the
dark here and say that they were baboons. Okay, interesting,
maybe like very malnourished.
Speaker 2: They definitely looked like they definitely starved them so that
they would just go buck wild on these gladiators when
they when they got the chance. Yeah, what'd you think
of that battle.
Speaker 1: With the bass? That's just yeah, it's kind of it's
terrifying because I feel like you're in the situation, and
I think he was very lucky. Lucius is very lucky
to be dealing with only one baboon because I feel like, okay,
you could have one come from the side, like a
third one could gang up on you like who knows.
But no, he went full animal kingdom there craving the
hunter and managed to like fight this one baboon off
pretty well. I mean he's eating it as he's fighting
and stuff, which I kind of got to chuckle out
of that. I was like the running joke when the
guys like, I know you you eat monkeys and then
he sits down with all the other gladiators. They're making
monkey noises at him. So I thought that was kind of.
Speaker 2: I like that. Yeah, I like that that didn't turn
into classic high school movie thing of like they're always
picking on him and he's like the little nerdy guy
in the corner, Like he was laughing during that dinner
scene as well, kind of you know, sell a self
owned way, just like laughing about a little bit and
then like no one ever really mentions it again, like
they're not holding it over his head of like, oh,
this guy's a freak. You're a freak, Peter Parker. It's
more just that like it was just a funny thing
that happened, but he still obviously became the leader that
didn't stop that from happening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. One one.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I want to call it a
minor bee for otherwise, but I think, you know, they're
really setting up our character here. Lucy is to be
as we mentioned, like kind of the replication of Maximus,
and I think it's good that they take some deviations,
but one deviation I didn't like, But then again, maybe
i'd be coming the opposite of criticism if they just
copied it from the first one. I think Maximus and
all these battles, even back to that very first one,
was so much about the team of it. And obviously
we had seen him leading an army in the start
of the movie, so it made sense that he had
that background. But I feel like Lucius as a character,
they were trying to build him up in that same
way and that he was a great leader, and it
got to that point where he was leading, especially in
that boat battle, But I feel like to that point
we never really saw him working as a team. Like
during the rhino battle, he's telling everyone like a general strategy,
but I kind of feel like it was just a
one on one battle that whole time. And like, especially
weirdly when after he bits the rhine oto the wall,
the wine rhino knocks itself out, the guy jumped, the
rhino rider jumps off and they fight. Why aren't the
other gladiators jumping to help Lucius at that point.
Speaker 1: And just killed throw the shield?
Speaker 2: That's it, Like they should have, like, as you said,
like a baboon, and they should have been swarming that
guy and just take him out. So that was weird
and maybe that just shows how they don't want to
work together, or they only care about themselves. I don't know,
but even in that baboon battle, I was kind of
hoping for a bit more teamwork between them, and then
I guess I also found it a bit odd that
in that fight, based on what we saw him do,
which was like, I feel like he barely beat that babboon,
to be fair, and he only fought one. Because of that,
Macrinus was like, Oh, that is my boy, that is
my avatar, that is my gladiator. So all this is
like based off of this one thing. But I feel
like everyone else except for the guy who sacrificed himself,
wins that battle as well and succeeded against their babboon.
So I I don't know what he did that was
so special, And obviously he was correct because Lucius wasn't
a great battler, great fighter, but it just seemed a
bit odd that there was really no teamwork there. It's
not like Lucius was leading the charge. But as I said,
like everyone else kind of survived that, so it didn't
seem to be a very difficult battle actually at all.
But still it was the one that Macrinus was like,
oh damn, that's my boy. So some odd pace in
there in terms of Lucius being the kind of fact
a leader, and maybe it's good that he's not just
such an obvious chosen one type character, but like, I
don't know, he still is, it's just shown a bit
differently in the battles.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I felt bad for his friend. You know,
they were obviously good buddies in the Kingdom there before
they got taken over by the Roman legionnaires and then
they were thrown into the arena and his friend, like
Lucius is just like, okay, stay close to me, and
then his friend just kneels down and just gets fucking
mauled by pam Boons. Baboon's just like right away, God, damn,
that's that's not how I want to go. I don't
want to be just have my vocally.
Speaker 2: After Lucius was like, please fight and stay alive. I
need you dude. You're my friend. I look up to you,
You're my leader. And he just gives up instantly. He's like,
I don't I don't want nothing to do with this lifestyle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was dead and now it's not good, not good.
But I like what you said though about him and
the leadership qualities in comparison to Maximus, because yeah, he's
really not portrayed as that leader at the start. It
develops for sure with the naval battle on that at
the very end when he's boosting up his gladiators and
they're going to go attack and save Licilla. But I
at the start, in that arena with I mean with
the bamboons, baboons, there's there's nothing of that, no leadership
at all. But when we get to that first arena
in the Colisseum or the first battle in the Colosseum,
and he's actually giving them just the advice, you still
have that one guy that's like, of course, fucking cowards,
and like what does he do. He's running with his
back to the rhino and the guy's got the little
like ball and chains and the bulls cooks them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is exactly like the first movie, right, and
the exact same sequence when you have all the people
shielding with the chariots coming in and there's the one
guy who like doesn't want to work with him, doesn't
want to follow the plan, wants to do his own
thing and dies for it. So that that was a
funny similarity to in terms of the pacing of the movies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and getting to that second arena battle, that was no,
I don't know again historically accurate. If they actually got
big ass sharks great whites in an arena like that,
that's and like not just one or two, but they
had like at least over ten in there. That was crazy.
I don't know how they did it. That's some state
of the art architecture and like development in that little arena.
To do something like that, I thought it was cool.
It was freaking awesome to see it, But just the
concept behind it, if it's accurate, that's what I want
to know, And I got to look into that. If
they actually were putting sharks in the Roman Colisseum, I.
Speaker 2: Would wager that it is not real. That would be
my presumption. Yeah, a little bit of suspension of disbelief
is needed there. And that's another situation where like these
sharks cruising around is very uh CGI. I did think
that they had an odd strategy, well, both good and
an odd strategy where Lucius and the squad their goal is, Okay,
let's let's fuck up the ores of our opponents here
and then they can't maneuver around and then we can
have our way with them. They do that, and then
they like duck at the right time to dodge the arrows.
They reposition the boat and then they ram into it
to break it in half. And I feel like, at
that point, isn't the idea to like break the boat
in half and then just like scoot out of there
and let them just die to the sharks. But like
as soon as they crash into their boat, which is
like it's sinking in seconds, they all jump off the boat,
or at least Lucius does, jumps off their boat onto
the worst boat, like the strategically worst spot to be
to like fight down there. So I don't know, maybe
it's nitpicky, but I felt like odd odd strategy, And yeah,
I feel like the team rom there had no they
had no plan, they had no leader, they had no Lucius,
they had no Maximus, because no one had any clue
what they were gonna do, even though like going into
that fight they would know what the fight was gonna be.
Presumably I assume that the people on Roman side are
given like the stats of like you're gonna fight this
many people in this many places. These are the traps.
These are that kind of thing, And yeah, I feel
like they had no plan going in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, you know, going in taking out the
oars and the shards splintered up and like killed some
of those those guys. That was good. That was good.
And then yeah, ramming it after the fact too and
disabling their ship permanently, that was pretty good. But in
the just sequence of them doing these things just didn't
really make sense to me. And I'm not like a
master strategist, and I wasn't there in that situation, so
I was just watching it unfold. But for me, I think, Okay,
they the Gladiators don't have a long range weaponry, so
maybe that's why they had to ram that boat right
away and then bored it because they had to take
him out because maybe it wasn't deep enough where the
ship would fully sink below.
Speaker 2: The water, and it did look pretty shallow.
Speaker 1: It was pretty shallow. So if you disable it by
ramming it then back off a little bit, well they
can still pick you off. And they did lose a
fair bit of guys at doing the ore destruction and
then like circling around.
Speaker 2: The risky strategy for sure, very risky can easily go wrong.
I mean even maximuses or Maximus. You see, this is
rhino strategy also high risk, high risk, y reward, clearly,
but yeah, sketchy.
Speaker 1: Move, yeah, very sketchy. I did like when that was
the first time Lucius like grabs the dirt and like
it's picking it up, and Lucilla's just like like chills,
you know, like oh my gosh, and she.
Speaker 2: Kept sniffing seeing someone pick up dirt before, yes, and
stab their sword into the ground.
Speaker 1: And that's right, it's exactly. I can't remember though, with
the lavender if that was a reoccurring thing from the
first one, if she was doing that in that movie,
or I was trying to think, like why is she
in all our scenes sniffing lavenders? Like what is the
significance of that?
Speaker 2: God, I'm trying to remember what he says, like Maximus,
what his favorite because isn't doesn't he meant isn't lavender thing?
In the first one as well, he's talking about herbs
and stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take a look here, see.
Speaker 2: But you're a good, good point. I kind of forgot
about that. But being right, I feel like there's a
lot of imagery of her rocking some herbs there. Hmmm, yeah,
no obvious connection.
Speaker 1: No obvious connections. No, but there's gotta be something something,
I'm sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean he wanted to be a farmer and
you wanted to farm things like that, so maybe maybe
lavender was in the equation.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Should we bring in this question from Tyler? I
think this is a great question that I'm really excited
to get into. Is did I forget something from the
first movie or is it never mentioned in the first
movie that Lucius is Maximus's son as far as I
can remember, they just changed it for this movie. So
this is fun because in the retro for the first one,
we talked about this and all three of us, me
and you and Kirkland said, yeah, it's possible based on
the movie. Here like, they never answer it. It's odd
that they don't answer it, giving it such a big
plot point. It's plausible that he could be the sun,
but probably not, and none of us wanted it. That
was I think the biggest takeaway in that discussion was
none the three of us wanted us wanted that to
be the writing in this movie, for that to be
the connection point. So how do you feel know that
you've seen the movie and that is confirmed that Lucia's
is in fact Maximus's son.
Speaker 1: I'm still not a big fan of it. I feel
like they backtracked because the way I took it in
that first movie was Maximus and Luscilla had a relationship
and then they went their separate ways, and then they
they found partners after the fact and then had kids.
Speaker 2: But now, which also makes sense, because their sons in
that movie are around the same age. It looks like, right, yeah,
you would think that they had their kids around the
same time. So Maximus was exactly really close with when
he had his kidd he hook up with Lucilla clearly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so we get this whole sequence here where
they're just talking about how the rumors were, like, oh,
the rumor was it was commonest, right, that was with her?
And then oh no, the rumor was, Okay, well she
was with I guess the father's name was Lucius as well,
So she was with him, and he did fancy her.
He fancied men, and so that's where okay, well, really
like that's why she had you know, lovers and whatnot.
Like Maximus, who obviously was the father of the son
which is kind of like the go to here. So yeah,
I mean there again, it's just them soft rebooting and
or recconning kind of the pre established narrative that they
already whipped up right, which is just it's a little
bit weird. Maybe they just thought, like, you know, this
is actually a good kind of story plot, let's stick
with this, let's just run with it. I would have
liked it if they just kept it kind of ambiguous
and not actually give us that confirmation like he is
Maximus's son. I think he could have someone have him
be this character that again he looked up to Maximus
in that first movie, and so have it set up
where he's still looking up to him and wants to
represent everything that Maximus believed in. That would have been
good enough for me. I didn't necessarily need it to
be like, oh, yeah, he's the son.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I don't. I don't love it, but
I think I dislike it less than I thought it
would based on that retrospective. I'm not going to go
as as far as to say that it's a retcon,
because I do feel like the first movie did leave
it ambiguous whether or not that was the case, and
I think, as we just talked about with the Ages
of the Suns, it is a bit it's like, oh, Maximus,
you were really really close to when you got with
your wife, clearly like when this happened. It seems based
on just like judging how old those actors look, which
maybe we're digging too much into the weeds there, but yeah,
I don't I guess even in this movie, like technically
she says that to him, she could just be saying
it as a way to motivate him because she knew
that he did look up to him. But then she
also does tell it to Acacius, which feels like, Okay,
I don't know why she would necessarily do that, or
maybe she just said it to him so that Acacias
would have this way to bond with him in the
arena when they're thrown against each other. So I guess
you could make the case that she was just saying
that and it's not confirmed, but I feel like that's
a bit of a that's a bit of copium, I think,
to go about it that way, and I feel like
it is kind of just confirmed at this point, but
you know, we really don't know. It's not like we
get a flashback scene of them going at it. You know,
it's not like they bring back Russell Crowe, and like,
I filmed this scene, So I don't know. It technically
could still be ambiguous, but I feel like it's pretty
hard to believe that train of thought. I and I think,
you know, it doesn't make sense from that perspective. Lucius
did really look up to him and these things of
replicating his movements, stabbing sword on the ground, picking up
the sand. Obviously, like near the start of the movie
when he's in the fields, he's like playing with the
rice or the grain whatever, and he's doing like a
very similar thing. So even before he knows about that,
he's doing some of these things that are very similar
to Maximus. And yeah, okay, it could be like a
DNA thing. He is his father's son, but also like
that kid just really looked up to Maximus and washed
a lot of his battles and was stoked to be
able to talk to him, So he could just be
like looking up to him and trying to, you know,
conscious or unconsciously, just like kind of replicating the movements
of his hero in a way. So I don't know,
I feel like there is some elements of it that
I think are fine. I think where I don't really
like it is I felt like the part with Acacious
thrown into the ring with Lucius at the end and
being like, wait, stop, don't kill me, Let's have this conversation,
and he's like, I looked up at Maximus and I
love your mother. Like I did not like that at all.
I felt like that was very, very cheesy. I feel
like also Lucius, like, I don't know at what point
did his hate or like his revenge tail turn from
I want to kill Acacius. So I guess it turned
out I want to kill the emperors and like overthrow
them and like start a new Rome. But I kind
of feel like even if that was his goal, he
would probably still want to kill Acacius because Acaciaus did
directly have his his wife killed. So to me, it
felt like, given that that was the first scene that
really turned Lucius on and his perspective Acacius, I didn't
really buy into him having that turn of wanting to
not kill him and get revenge for his wife, because
even like we talked about Maximus, it's like, okay, he's
kissing Lucilla by the end of the first movie, like
is he doing this for his wife? Does he forget
about his wife already? Now we know there's potentially more
baggage if like he has a another he has a
kid with his lady, Obviously that changes a lot of
that conversation that we had. But like at the end
of this movie, I guess Lucius is thinking more about
Maximus than his wife, but he is still like very
much rate to the end of the movie, having these
those visions which are similar but different than the visions
Maximus was having of picturing his wife in kind of
the afterlife or entering Valhalla or whatever the Roman equivalent
would be.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, no, I agree. There's a point I
wanted to bring up, and I will do so after
this quick ad break and we are back. I still
can't remember what my point was.
Speaker 2: But Acacius was someone Acacius. I am curious how you
feel about Lucius's turn there and not wanting to kill him, Like,
do you feel like that was justified based on their
scene together there or am I missing maybe another scene
of context that you can think of was not justified.
Speaker 1: I needed more more time between them because the last
time they confront each other, just is flying a crossbow
up at the stands to try and execute him on
the spot, right, Like, it's just we need more connection
between the two. So it's very unfortunate we didn't get that,
because yeah, him just kind of like down his knees,
waving his hands like apologizing and whatnot. That's not necessarily
good enough. It would have been nice to get a
little bit more build up, even if he's like he
visits Lucius in the gladiator pits and like he's like
chained up and can't fight back, and you have him
kind of like confront him a bit, tell him the
truth and stuff like that, and then like even Lucius said,
like you killed my wife. Everything, Like there's so much
that could have just been kind of explored a little
bit more, but they didn't dive into that. So it's
a shame. But again, like Pedro's fantastic. I think he
did a great job as a character. Yeah, and he
just I think everything with him, like we got more
between Acacius and the emperors, and I did like all
that stuff. I thought that was very fitting. But in
the end of all things here, which they he just
kind of became like a martyr, because when Acasius was
just shot down and then everyone's just freaking out, and
I like, we already brought this up, but just that
the speech that Luca said, like this, see how they
treat their heroes. Do you think he'll treat you any better?
Kind of stuff like that, So I thought that was
that was pretty good.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think I think I'm a bit of on the
opposite side of the Golden Roman coin from you on.
Like I love Pedro, but I was pretty disappointed with
him in this movie. I mean, that ending scene does
not help and then I'd explain why I don't like that,
but I to me, I felt like, out of most
of the characters here, he was the one that felt
the most derivative of a character from the first movie,
just being Okay, he's the he's the leader of these armies.
He's a great fighter. The people look up to him.
He's a symbol for Rome, and you know, the people
want to see him win and want to want to
give him mercy and things like that. But then I
feel like it never really and like he's also a
lover of Lucilla in that same way, but I never
feel like it really went past that, and I don't
when I think back on it, I don't know if
I have of like, oh damn, Pedro like acted his
ass off in that scene. I think he really delivered,
Like I don't think he has a moment, and I
don't think it's his fall. I think it's more on
the script side and what the purpose of that character was.
And then I feel like this movie just has more
characters overall than that first movie did, so naturally, everyone's
gonna have a little bit less time other than like
your main protagonist of Lucius, who gets a ton of content.
So yeah, I just I don't feel like I really
had a standout moment or two of his and I
liked a couple of his stuff, but overall felt a
little too derivative, So I wasn't a big fan of him.
I think we should. I guess we should talk about
these emperors a little bit. We haven't even talked about
them at all yet. Yes, But to me, I think
this was maybe one of the most disappointing part parts
of the movie in that you can go back to
our retro and like Colmedist, I thought was such a
well written, well acted character, a character who you could
like see as motivations, but he was like he was
deeply flawed in his He was creepy when he needed
to be. He was a bit intimidating when he needed
to be. He was such a weasel. I thought he
was such a fun character and such a great villain
and like a through line for the movie. I think
in this movie, it it had a lot more sub
villains and there's a lot more like things going on there.
But I think in terms of like the two emperors,
I just don't feel like I ever knew why were
they so bad as emperors? I actually cannot answer that question.
Can you answer that question for me? Like other than
like they they're they're they they're kind of cocky, Like
I don't actually know why they're a bad leader of Rome.
Like I couldn't give you that answer because I feel
like we just didn't really get any information on about
like what they want to do. Like columnists, they set
up so much of like here's the systems. He's dismantling.
He's dismantling the Senate. He doesn't care about the sick people.
All he cares about is the games, And like these emperors,
they care about the games too, but like what else,
I feel like we need a bit more. They're a
bit too flat for me, I suppose so.
Speaker 1: But there was a brief little bit of dialogue where
they it was during the riot and it was at night,
and they were basically saying, all the preatorians will handle
this again like they did before. So it tells me, Okay,
the people have rided over these emperors multiple times, so
I think, okay, they have a lack of compassion for
the people, and they, like with commonests. You have him
as an emperor who actually listened to the people in
the arena reluctantly, like he would not. He would show
mercy or he would kill, base on what the people
were asking for. And I think that's what makes him
very unique and different compared to these emperors where the
people were like chanting for one thing or another and
these emperors were just dismissing it, disregarding it and doing
their own things. So I think at the end, the
differences between these guys and the commonists is that they
don't care what the people want. They're just doing their
decisions no matter what. And they're also on this like
war hungry campaign, right whereas commonists. I think he was
more or less like done with the war. His father
had done his like German Germania, Germanic campaign, and so
Commerce is like, oh, we're gonna do the games, We're
gonna take it easy. But these guys are like, Okay, no,
we're going to war. We got other places to call it.
Speaker 2: Don't But don't people love And even in this movie
like Hidden it like they're hitting it over and over again,
like people love Marcus Rellies. He was an amazing leader,
But wasn't he that same way of just like endlessly
killing societies and going on war rampages and even Maximus
wanted to end them, but Marcus was like, no, next battle,
next battle, let's go take up more people.
Speaker 1: He was, And I feel like there's there's still not
enough that we could really kind of like in retrospect
look back and kind of understand that because like, yeah,
he was off fighting his campaigns. He wasn't back home
leading right like this. The people that were to charge
of Rome was I guess like more of like a
CRRP senate and some other CRUP politicians and whatnot, So
we didn't really get to see that he was just
he was just kind of like away from it, almost
like he just didn't like it because Rome was sick
and he was trying to get away from that and
wanted to come back and make Rome what it could be,
almost like after going through all these military care paigns.
And this is my own perspective, so take out a
grain of salt. Going through all the military campaigns with
Maximus is kind of what changed him and put him
in the position like, Okay, we need to go back
to Rome after this campaign and make it better. Whereas
I mean, yeah, the fighting was done when Communists was
there and these guys were just corrupt and the twin
emperors just want to take over and conquer, which, by
the way, Joseph Quinn was fantastic. I think he didn't
one emperor like he was just I thought he was
super like cuckoo and crazy and all that, but also.
Speaker 2: Terrifying at points when he needed to be. Even though
he wasn't never shown to be a competent fighter, I
still found like when he you know, he always had
the makeup around the eyes and when like he stared
you down like you were you were scared, whereas the
other guy, I was never really scared. Of him, and
he was supposed to be more like the silly one,
so you know, I don't think that was ever like
his purpose. But yeah, Joseph Quinn, I think he did
a great job given that it's a very flat character
with like you know, communists, very well rounded character, even
if he's like very evil and bad. I don't feel
like this character really had that. But he still just
did a great job with the performance. So yeah, I
did everything he could give him the material.
Speaker 1: Kind of kind of a side note. Do you you
know the hound in Game of Thrones? Right?
Speaker 2: Is he in season one?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Oh, then I have seen season one. Who's the act.
Speaker 1: He's got like the burnt face, long black hair. His
brother was like the big guy the mountain.
Speaker 2: Oh man, I'm not a game, not a big Game
of Thrones guy.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I'm gonna show you.
Speaker 2: Someone reminiscent of this character for you.
Speaker 1: Oh well, character, he this guy, he was actually in
this movie. He was there was the main Preatorian guard
who was he was leading the army basically, And when
Denzel's Washington character, Denzel Washington's character is like, okay, we'll
meet them at the gates and the command general is
like okay, and then they go out there and so
then you see this guy Rory mcnahnon. He's leading the
whole army against the Legionnaires. So I just thought that
was crazy because I haven't seen them in much anything
else aside from Knuckles and Game of Thrones, so it's
nice to see him ring too.
Speaker 2: These brothers, how do you think they came into power?
Speaker 1: Fuck? I have no idea. Jesus Christ again, sixteen years,
sixteen short freaking years, and these guys just crept in there,
Like what was the Senate doing? They were doing something wrong?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I find that something that I'm not gonna call
it a plot hole because like it happens in between
the movies, so it's like any reason could exist. But
at no point did I feel like they were cunning
or intelligent or good fighters or smart politically, like did
they climb up through the ranks politically? Doesn't seem like it.
So that's an issue I have, is like, don't I
don't know how these guys gone to where they are.
That's kind of a problem for me, given that I'm
supposed to fear them as like the leaders of Rome,
like the most powerful civilization in at least this part
of the world at this point in time. It's I
don't know, it's unbelievable. I feel like I needed a
little bit more explained there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, And this is where I have to
look into it to see if this is historically accurate too,
if there was a point in time where these two
twin emperors just actually took over Rome or whatnot. But
I'm not I'm not sure and how that remains to
be seen. But anyways, if the sake of the movie, yeah,
I don't know their ancestry, I don't know their their lineage.
I don't know how they got in if it, like
you said, if it was through political power, through it
was financial power, just how they did it, I just
don't get it. Now, obviously we have a void because
when Lucius was sent away as a boy at the
age of twelve, we have no one leading room, no emperor,
so right, and I doubt that we had one in
between Lucius running away, Commonist dying and then the twins
taking over. It just doesn't make sense because it was
sixteen years so I imagine that, Hey, you have the Senate
that is supposed to take control and it's supposed to
be running things and put the power back into the people.
Now that dream is slowly starting to fade away, and
then you have these two twins show up. But it
doesn't make sense. The Senate would be in control here,
they would have Maximus' arby as well, so things should
be okay. But the only thing that we have to
go off of is that this dream was just forgotten
and these two fucking lunatics took over the like the throne,
and it's just like, I don't understand that. It doesn't
make sense to me, but maybe it's just well, I
don't know. It just makes the people to be just
really really dumb, and maybe are they trying to make
them done?
Speaker 2: You know, it's once again hard for root for the
people of Rome. Like I want the civilian people to
be safe and free and not actively at war all
these things, but I don't know, like what am I
supposed to do? Like they've given me no reason to
want to root for them, so I'm like, I don't
really care whatever happens happens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's a real tough one for me
to to figure out.
Speaker 2: My goodness, Uh, how about how about we pivot then
to Macronus, who Denzel Washington is rocking this role here
because I feel like I've been very negative on this
review before, which you know, is maybe how it goes.
But I absolutely loved this character. I, as I mentioned
in my non spoilers, is the character I was talking about.
I think this is my favorite maybe well written character
across the two movies. Columnists maybe up there. I think
he's very very well done as well, but I think
Macronus was was so interesting and compelling and it's funny
how once again he is a character that is kind
of mirroring Proximo from the first one. Now, Proximo is
a much much more minor role in the first one,
and he's not as big of a deal in like
the third act of that movie. But in terms of
like being the guy who runs this this smaller outside
of Rome finds the protagonist gladiator character, putting them in
the ring, kind of always whispering the sweet nothing's into
the emperors or like Caesar's ear, and like kind of
climbing up the political ladder from there. I think it's
kind of it starts out that way with as it
does with Proximal, but I think Macronus is a character
that has given so much more to do, and I
think the path that he snakes his way through in
this movie is so fun and engaging to me, so
as I as I mentioned, they're kind of getting getting
grabbing this gladiator who clearly he has the right read
that this guy, this is the guy, this is the
guy with who's gonna have plot armor and is never
gonna die. And and the way he leverages that to
just gain power slowly or quickly even I guess through
through Rome is really really good.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: And the way he kind of just slowly drives a
wedge between the brothers, and like obviously we see Cara
Kala is the one brother who eventually turns on his brother,
and the way that he just like pushes him into
doing that by like kind of bringing up these insecurities
that he has and then like confirming his suspicions that
his brother doesn't trust him, wants to go against him,
and then literally to the point where he is holding
the knife with him as he cuts his brother's throat.
Like all of that I think is very very well
done and to me, very believable for what this emperor
was showing once again, I don't know how that guy
came to power in Rome. That makes no sense to me,
but at least for the character we were shown, I
think it makes total sense how he's able to do
that and then coming up with this brilliant plan to
throw Lucilla out there in the battle and have her sacrificed,
which is gonna cause it Like, one, it's gonna take
a huge player that's against him, and then two it's
gonna make people hate Caracala, and then he's immediately gonna
take him out and take the throne. I think, like
that is a brilliant plan and I like it. You know,
he almost got away with it too, for those Medaling kids.
I think he is just such a well done character.
I just love seeing him weasel him his way through
all these all these different ranks and uh as you
filled me in with too, like being the one that
kind of gains the information through his various uh I
don't know, through his various people that he trusts and
trusts him, gains the information that the coup is happening,
and then feeding that back to the Brothers so that
he can continue to make this plan happen that will
put him in power rather than these other people where
he'd maybe still be the second, third, fourth in command.
Just all of it is like really really cool, really
well done, and just such a fun pathway for a character.
So big shouts to Macronus.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really appreciate how he was the like opposite
Proximo in this movie, and you're Proximo Funwards. Yeah, Like he,
like Proximo, was just this former gladiator, former slave who
got his freedom and just loved the arena and loved
uh like Marcus Aurelius, and really did believe in Maximus
for the right reasons, to the point where he was
willing to help with this whole coup said free everything
like that. Whereas in this case you have Macrinus who
is just goes along this he's introduced in the same way,
goes along the same trajectory. But for him, he sees
Lucius only as a means to benefit what he wants,
and he is not turning to the good side, not
helping with this rebellion. He is instead turning all turning
the evidence into the emperors and that's that. And yeah,
just how how evil and conniving he gets when yeah,
he's helping hold the hand of the emperor as he's
slashing in his brother and and he executes him, and
he's just then taking control. It's just amazing how fast
he moves up, and it shows how corrupt the system
is because he I mean, he used to serve in
the army, as we learn under Marcus Aurelius. Yeah, that's right.
He ended up becoming a slave, getting his freedom, and
then all of a sudden you have him working his
way up to almost taking control of Rome. It's just
absolutely crazy to think about that, and I'm I would
have been curious to see what the fallout would have been.
Let's say Lucius did die and you have Macronus just
charging out ahead of his the Preatorian army to face
the Legionnaires. What narrative was he going to spin, like, oh,
the gladiators like killed Lucilla or something like that. I
don't know, Like it's just there's some I wonder what
he was going to say, because he's so good at
being manipulative in this movie, and so I really do
like his character. H Yeah, he's just he's got this
weird commanding presence when he's on on screen. Something like that.
I like how he was able to figure out that
Lucilla's son was Lucius and kind of like to do
so all that and I think that was that was
pretty cool. But yeah, he was. He was a really
good character. And yeah, he loses a hand. Not not great,
but a very cool scene like when they were fighting
and he's like they're in the water and he's just
fucking jabbing his sword in there and all you see
is like the sword just like ding ding ding hitting
the Yeah, he was so close.
Speaker 2: So Lucius, who has not worn a helmet once in
this whole movie always, even in that opening battle, I'm like,
I know, this is like a hot actor and you watched,
but like gome On put a helmet on dude.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they did with Maximus.
Speaker 2: So yes, for for a short while. Yeah, I think
you know a couple of other points with him is
I love because because as I mentioned, like okay, in
that Baboon fight, a lot of people did well, but
I guess it was a really good read on him.
That what was different about Lucius, it was the rage.
It wasn't that he was the most entertaining or even
the most intelligent or strongest or biggest. It was it
was that rage, which is one that's like great for
a villain, right because like that rage comes from like
this grief, which is the loss of his wife. So
he's like taking this really distorted motivation and just like
using it to his advantage. And I think that's like
that was ultimately his downfall is he just never never
truly respected Lucius. He always just saw him as a tool,
and that's where he you know, he was trying to
make him the best fighter he could be, but only
for a means to an en andy. He never really
saw him as a person. He never saw him as
like someone who could claim his freedom or go against him,
which is interesting because it seems like, okay, based on
his backstory, it seems like he was maybe in a
similar position as as Lucius once was, and he overcame that.
But he obviously felt so highly about himself, had such
a big ego that he didn't feel like anyone else
could do that, only he was capable of such a thing.
And obviously, yeah, Lucius breaks out of the cage at
the end because of his friendship there with Rove, and
that's what leads to kind of the overthrowing of that
whole battle going on, So that was really cool, And
I had one question for you on the character's motivation
for Macronus. Obviously, he wants a great gain power of Rome.
And one thing he says, and I'm you know, paraphrasing here,
I don't have the quote in front of me, he
says he wants the wrong He wants or the world
to be one where anyone is able to claim there's destiny.
That's one thing he wants to flight for. Like I
don't know if he really means that or if he's
just like saying that, because that sounds like something a
king would say, but like I guess he's saying that,
but like I don't really know like what that's opposed to,
like what what is it currently at Rome, because it
kind of seems like anyone can kind of just claim
their destiny if they just killed the right people. So anyway,
I don't know what he felt like would have changed
under his rule in his new ideology, and maybe we
just need to see more of that, or if he
actually did become the emperor, we have got more of that.
But I didn't I didn't really know what he actually
wanted to change about Rome. That was one question mark
I had.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what he wanted to change either.
I mean, sixteen years, it's all it takes, and then
it's change as someone else's changed, and it's just it's
not great. So I don't know what he was thinking
he was going to be instilling. I guess just more
control for the people. And I'm just assuming because we
me not knowing what his change was. All I can
take with that is Okay, they're implying that his change
is what Maximus wanted to do, and they're just reviving
what Maximus and Marcus Aurelius's original plan was, right, Like, Okay,
a senate that's speaking for the people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I guess I just mentioned character. Robbie there
very minor character in this movie, but I loved him.
That's like one of my favorite characters. Do you for
what he was? It's just someone I want to root for.
I loved his look right because he was at like
the makeup he had, like the scars on his face
that he had stitched over in a really cool way.
He was just a nice guy. He just you know,
he was trying to save lives. He's like, more people
die because of the wounds than than like in the
in the arena themselves, and I just I thought he
was someone that was really easy to root for and
cheer for. And that was another character well that I
was kind of chuckling about, just the comparison to the
first movie, where I forget when that guy in the
first movie comes along, but the guy who's kind of
the mess singer who can like pass the message along
to Maximus's army, and he like, remember, he like sneaks
in when when the Lucilla's like on that she's I
don't know, on that thrown thing walking through the town,
and he sneaks in and like has a quick conversation
with her and she gives him some coins. Whoever, that
guy was like the guy in the ear kind of
spitting these messages along. I love that Robbie kind of
gets that same role where he gets thrown on a
horse and has to deliver this like very important message
and he has that trust obviously he gives him that ring,
which is a very very important ring. So yeah, I
liked I liked Robbie as a character who's one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I liked him too. I liked how he just
kept popping in. He was the on site medic he
gave me. This is a weird kind of comparison, but
he gave me. I can't remember what his name was,
except for that he was the Megi and the Mummy.
It's a very deep pole, but he he just reminds
me of that character and the way he's just yeah,
just like how he's just like he's the underdog hero
and I really really like that he kind of like
saves the day and yeah, so he was. He was
a cool character. I like him in this movie.
Speaker 2: Another question for you is near the so once once
uh Lucy's is captured after the war, we go, you know,
the boats arrive on I forget the name that it's
like Port Patio or Port Portia, Porta, something like that,
the town that's on the on the coast. Obviously they
arrived there, and then there's that's where that first battle happens,
with that arena. But I was also I was a
little confused with the order of events because we have
like it seemed like they arrived in Rome and then
went to this town. But I guess they just arrived
in this town. What I'm curious about is like they
have this sequence early on in the movie where Lucius
after he does that first battle and Macronus picks him out,
he has that battle against like the guy who never
loses once again, very similar character to like Titus or Titan,
whatever that guy's name was in the first movie. Then
they do that battle like inside in front of the
two emperors, but like that wasn't in the city of Rome.
That was still like in that coastal city. Because then
like after that, we have the scene of them all
arriving to Rome and they're all like commenting on like, oh,
they don't tell you about the smells, and like the
people are just starving and dying out in the fields
and they're arriving to Rome. But I'm like, would the emperors,
why would they go to this town just to like
watch this tiny little battle between two people in a hall.
I just didn't get why those characters were there. The
pacing of that scene seemed a little off to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the emperors being there confuses me. Now, the port
city that was the port city of Rome, so it
was close, but the order of events is a little convoluted,
and I still don't I don't understand why the emperors
would have been there. It looked like it was just
a big party that the the guy that one senator
was throwing.
Speaker 2: You would have think they would have gone to the
arena that day and like watch the battle because they
love that stuff. But maybe that again is small for them,
you know, but I.
Speaker 1: Don't know if well, yeah, because I guess the bamboo sorry,
the baboon battle that I think already happened. Yes, that
already happened because Macronus bought him. And so then they
arrived at the port city of Rome, and then this
was again it was supposed to be just like knuckles, right,
like just fists and fists kind of a fight, and
it wasn't supposed to be like full gladiatorial swords. Yeah,
and for is just going fucking berserk for swords. So
that unfolded and then yeah, then after that then you
get the actual like arena battles, the rhino and stuff
like that. So it is a little bit murky and convoluted,
but I for me, it does kind of there's a pathway.
There's a pathway through.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 2: One thing I forgot about Macronus is, uh, he has
that scene where he's in like Lucilla where Lucilla is
locked up at this point and he's in the chamber
having a conversation with her, and I thought it was
really purposeful that he, like, at that point, he's really
confident and he eats a couple of grapes and like
we commpeded in like the first moybe like commedy like
eating the grapes, Like that's a very like emperor thing
to do, just be fed the grapes, right, And so
I thought it was I thought it was very purposeful
that he's like eating a couple of grapes in that
scene before he pops out. So I just quick mention there.
I think my only last thoughts are like just things
with like the very very endiing. Do you have anything else,
like other than Indian stuff that we haven't talked about
or character I think we've talked about most of the
characters at this point.
Speaker 1: No, I don't have anything, but I will highlight Tyler's
comment in the chat. I think lavender was because Maximus
had fields of lavender, which jogs a memory. I'm pretty
sure he did grow lavender, and he talked about how
the smell of it reminded him of home. I think Tyler,
I think You're spot on with that, so that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Always spot on.
Speaker 1: So there you go, lead us into your your last
note here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a couple, I mean one like kind of
really leaning into the material of the first movie going
down to that. I don't know you'd call it a
tomb I guess getting Maximus's arm or getting his sword,
all of that was a little on the nose, but like, okay,
it's his son at this point, that's kind of confirmed,
so I think it makes sense, and like that that
armor is very symbolic clearly, Like obviously even the first
movie is like this is what this means, is what
that means? And he explains that too Lucius in that moment,
so to where that armor I'm sure is a big
moment for him. So all that cool. I was fine
with it. To two things. So Lucilla, did she die
for anything? You know, did any did anything come of
her death? Did that change anything? I kind of feel
like she just went out with a bit of a
fizzle because that there was so much chaos happening at
that point that I don't think anyone even really noticed
that she died other than Lucius. And I'm sure when
they're picking up the pieces later, But it's also hard
to tell, like what the people of Rome feel about her.
I don't know if they love her at that point
just from Marcus Aurelius, and if they still have admiration
for her. But I kind of feel like she didn't
die any for anything in the way that Maximus, well,
Maximus in the first movie he died for something, and
then obviously in the crawl it's kind of overwritten. But
I don't know, do you feel like she died for anything?
Speaker 1: Uh, not necessarily. I feel like, again, the people, the
people of this room are very easily persuaded because they're
they're shown up there to watch people get killed, and
in this case it's Lucilla who's there like strolled out
there to get killed, and the people are being told,
okay that she was going to overthrow the crown, like
that she was a bad chick, she's a trader, she's
a rebel along with all these other senators. So yeah,
I don't know. And again we're supposed to root for
Rome and it's people, but it's hard to know exactly
what like the Rome and the people here are thinking
because they retaliate after one of the archers shoots one
of their own, they didn't retaliate before, and well they
were definitely obviously being disagreeable with how things were going. Yeah,
it's still very convoluted on on them and just kind
of like how they fit into it. So I don't
I don't know. Maybe she's a martyr, Maybe that's the
only takeaway I can see with this, But again, that
happened after the fact, and I think at its course,
she probably only serves as a chest piece for Lucius
and Lucius's journey because it puts the target on Macronus
and Macrianus shoots her and basically like Locke's eyes with Lucius,
and Lucius just like charges after him on horseback and
then executes him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another thing I wondered, is like, I don't
really know if anyone other than Lucius and Lucilla know
that Macronus took that shot, because there was that was
like the riots had already erupted that point, and I
feel like what Macronus was going to do, He's like, ah, shit,
this is not only the way I wanted to but
I'm just gonna take this shot. I can blame the
emperor for it, and I can say that's why I
killed the emperor because he took that shot, right. I
guess I don't know if maybe that maybe that would
have been his reasoning, So yeah, I don't I kind
of feel like Macronis was expecting that no one was
gonna know that he was the one that fired that
arrow at the end. Yeah, and then yeah, how did
you feel about like the just the very last shot
of him saying, talk to me father, and then like
that's when we faded black? What do you think about
that line of dialogue in that choice?
Speaker 1: I first split second thought, are we gonna see Russell
Crowe just walking here like for I mean we did.
We saw Russell Crows like walking with his hand, yes,
in the in the in the grass the wheat field.
But I thought we were actually gonna see him like
appear in the coliseum like my son, you must lead
Rome now or some crazy shit like that, Like anything
could happen at this point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad that they didn't do that cheesy fully cheat.
I think it was a little cheesy, but it could
have been way cheesier if he actually did say something.
I think he was more asking for a symbolic talk
to me, you know, a little ruffle in the wind
something like that. Yeah, I think that's all of my notes.
Speaker 1: Taylor Field perfect. Uh, well what do you What do
you got for your closing thoughts here and rating? If
you got one?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I I think I'm less mixed on this movie
after the review, more just like kind of negative on
it a little bit. I'm still feel like I'm still
gonna give it a decent number just because it was
a fun time at the movies. It was still a
fun watch, I suppose. But I feel like the more
I break down some of these things, the more issues
I tend to have a little bit. So I think
I'm gonna give this a six and six point five,
maybe six point we'll get a six point four. That'll
be my number at the end of the day. Uh,
this is this is a very fun review tailer. I
feel like we covered a lot of ground here. It
was very heated. Uh this is a fun one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I agree, it was. This is juicy. Oh
I you know, when I got home, Madison was like,
how was it? Did you enjoy it? I was like, yeah,
I enjoyed it. This that that, But I told her
my number rating right away. And I think I'm gonna
stick with that. I wasn't sure if it would change
after kind of getting through this conversation and this review,
but I think it's still pretty pretty solid at a
seven out of ten. I am positive on it because
I think the action was great. There are lots of
cool sequences, and a lot of the actors delivered greatly.
I think it was fantastic, But I think at its core,
some of the writing and some of the some of
the trajectories of their character's developments was a little bit off,
and some things in retrospect damaging the first films narrative.
It really just kind of like sets me back a
little bit, and it's unfortunate. I don't like that. I
wish that this was kind of more more like homage
to that first one and like building off that first
one instead of kind of like retroactively destroying it in
slight regards, But again that's just my into each the zone.
I'm sure if you love this movie, then I'm happy
for you, because you know, there's lots to love with
this movie. There really really is, and it's it's it's
it's an awesome film. I definitely do want to rewatch
it because I think there's a yeah, there's lots of
good things to pull from this, so yeah, that that
is it. So we did it, We came, we conquered
the coliseum, and we'll be back for Glad eight or
three if they ever do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. I will definitely be back. I I
think these are very fun movies that, yeah, have a
lot more depth than I thought they would before. Ever
haven't seen them.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. All right, Well, ladies and gentlemen, thank you
for tuning into this episode of Keeper's Podcast. We will
be back next time and we will see you in
the search bar. Have a good one, see you