WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:07.120 With a round segle end from London and Gerard read 2 00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:07.799 from Berlin. 3 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:11.119 This is redefining energy today. 4 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:16.359 On Redefending Energy job, we're gonna talk about the growing 5 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:19.640 complexity of battery fleet management. 6 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:22.839 Oh yeah, not easily wrong, not easy topic. 7 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:24.600 But first of the world from my partner. 8 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:28.160 A b Loco Energy is Europe's premier leaser of ten 9 00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:32.560 foot container mobile batteries built in Europe with COTL best 10 00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:38.520 LFP cells. A Bloco Energy serves fourteen European countries, including France, 11 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:42.679 Germany and the UK. A Bloco's batteries can be leased 12 00:00:42.679 --> 00:00:45.840 for any duration between six weeks and six years and 13 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:49.200 they are monitored by the Dutch award winning platform school 14 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:52.920 a block O Energy. Make your life easier, make your 15 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:54.000 business more flexible. 16 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:54.960 Back to the show. 17 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:58.200 Batteries can be anything from a battery in your home 18 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:00.600 is nine kilo what hours and then you can have 19 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.079 a gig one hours on the other side, and there's 20 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:05.519 a sports not just in one country, but a copy 21 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:08.439 across the world. Yeah, so that's a big topic. 22 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:12.480 Now. The thing is, with the development of batteries, you 23 00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:17.400 would think that battery management would become easier, but in 24 00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:21.439 fact it's becoming more complex because you have data risk. 25 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:24.799 You have a growing number of suppliers. The supply chain 26 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:28.560 which is to be integrated now are in disintegration mode. 27 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:32.920 The software stack are evolving all the time, the regulation changes. 28 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:36.359 It's so easy to lose control of your battery fleet. 29 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:40.719 Absolutely, as we believe that storage is really one of 30 00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:44.079 the revolutionary technologies of the twenty first century, we need 31 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:46.760 to think it's important a cage need to become a 32 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.560 little bit peakish, dig into the weeds and stuff. 33 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:53.359 So we have a great guest, Stefan rou the CEO 34 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:59.239 of Twice, one of germany leading battery analytics company. 35 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:02.640 Yeah and back around. Twice has become a major global 36 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:05.959 player in recent years with over one hundred and fifty 37 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:10.560 employees basically made up a battery scientists chemist, software engineers, 38 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:14.319 data scientists and the copy is raised about irking sixty 39 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:17.000 million in equity at this point in time and twenty 40 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:21.560 five million adapt finance EIB with a big growth opportunity 41 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:21.879 in front. 42 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:25.759 Before we bring Stefan on the show, we have something new, 43 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:31.520 the Geek Alert. It is a very geeky episode. I 44 00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:31.919 love it. 45 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:43.240 Stefan. Great to have you on the show. 46 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:44.639 Thank you for having me. 47 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:49.639 He Stefan, what you're doing looks extremely technical, so please 48 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:52.000 get you explain a bit what twice is doing in 49 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:53.240 terms of services. 50 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:59.840 Twice as an independent data analytics platform for proactive best operations. 51 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:04.560 That sounds long, but basically what it is. When IPPs 52 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:09.560 or utility companies build up portfolios and operating energy storage 53 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:13.800 I talk about larger scale utility scale energy storage, they 54 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:16.639 really need to understand what is the performance of the 55 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:20.680 system or the system safe, how long do the system run, 56 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:23.520 do I still operate the systems in the warranty or not? 57 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:26.639 And all of those kinds of things can be very 58 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:30.039 much like data power data informed. So due to that 59 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:32.240 we are you know, like pulling out the data from 60 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:36.800 the storages in operations and give our customers, the IPPs 61 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:40.639 and the utilities, the asset management teams, the performance engineers, 62 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:45.240 the maintenance teams one few of their single storages, but 63 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:48.080 also of the whole portfolio and help them to level 64 00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:50.520 up performance to really make sure that they have like 65 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:52.879 the right risk assessment of their storage is when they 66 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:57.400 operate them, and also helping them do that all more efficiently. 67 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:02.280 Because everyone started developing batteries but really last year a 68 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:05.240 lot of the assets get reoperational, and now like the 69 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:09.759 operational challenges are getting more severe and the companies also 70 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:13.039 get serious about it, and Twice really focusing on this 71 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:16.680 proactive BASS operation. So that's at the core of our company. 72 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:20.839 So basically, you're plugging on the BMS or the EMS, 73 00:04:21.160 --> 00:04:25.240 you'll tell me which one, and you're capturing voltage, temperature. 74 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:28.480 What kind of data are you managing exactly? 75 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:31.480 You can imagine like Twice is really sitting above the 76 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:35.959 EMS system, So we're pulling data from the skater system 77 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:39.439 or the EMS system, and it's AC level data and 78 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:43.920 DC level data pH back from their PCs, from the inverters, 79 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:47.759 but also from the REX so from the DC plocks 80 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:50.480 down to at a certain extent to the cell level, 81 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:53.079 but in most cases it's right like a bit higher level. 82 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:57.319 We're putting all this voltage and temperature and current data 83 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:00.839 out and then we push it into our platform and 84 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:04.040 then then like we unify the data and then we 85 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:08.319 calculate a lot of different insights or generate a lot 86 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:10.639 of different insights. For example, what is the usable energy 87 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:13.720 of the system. Everyone thinks, you know, it's a straightforward 88 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:16.120 KPI how much energy you can use from the system. 89 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:19.240 But it's just not true because a certain extent year 90 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:24.240 of your system is parts of offline. Some systems are imbalanced. 91 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:26.879 You have some weak components in this system, and that 92 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:29.399 all takes it into consideration, sums it up to a 93 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:32.759 usable energy and then our customers can really assess, Okay, 94 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:35.319 I have four and ot mega about hours installed, but 95 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:38.079 I can only use three hundred and sixty megabout ours? Actually, 96 00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:41.240 where do we lose those forty mega about ours? And 97 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:43.120 what do I need to do? What do I need 98 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:45.920 to change? How do I need to run my maintenance? 99 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:49.519 And may recur to really unlock those forty mega about ours? 100 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:52.399 Steppen, maybe just jump in there and just I'd like 101 00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:55.240 to talk a little bit about the best market in general, 102 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:57.360 right because I mean, I think what's happening around what 103 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:00.560 one hundred percent go along with the view thaties are 104 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:03.800 a revolution, But the one thing that I see is 105 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:06.600 a lot of the operators actually don't know how to 106 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:09.720 run these batteries properly, and they're probably not set up. 107 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:12.319 They've been used to sort of solar feed and tire 108 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:15.040 some wind freedom towers for many many years and now 109 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:19.680 suddenly they've got this dynamic asset, which is yeah, it's 110 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:21.879 very different than what they've been used to beforehand. 111 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:26.040 Yes, so you're absolutely right. There are two thoughts here. 112 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:30.519 So first, what changes with batteries is that they are 113 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:34.120 really getting like a fundamental part of future power system, 114 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:36.519 So they're getting part of the grid. Therefore they need 115 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:39.959 to be fully reliable. Are we there right now to 116 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:43.399 operate them fully reliable? Not in our opinion, not yet. 117 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:46.040 Which just made a survey beginning of this year and 118 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:51.879 interviewed around hundred operators IPPs utility companies and how often 119 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:56.439 do they experience incidents and it's around eighty percent of 120 00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:01.000 them experience more or less monthly. Some unexpects that incidents 121 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:04.079 in their storages and around forty percent of them have 122 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:07.680 like some revenue impact. So there you can already see 123 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:11.519 that as operational excellence of those The storage market is 124 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:15.439 not thea yet to really be a fundamental part to 125 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:18.839 the grid. What you're referring to is why does that happen? 126 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:23.279 And you're up to right. Most of the companies, especially 127 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:27.959 in Europe, which move into storage r have developed and 128 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:32.360 operating solar plants before or wind plants before, but it's 129 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:35.560 a completely different game when you now add storage, and 130 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:39.560 storage is very different to solar. Why is that a 131 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:43.839 different beast? Solo and wind not power generating assets. Storages 132 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:47.600 are some like a dispatchable capacity. You can charge and 133 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:52.120 discharge them. It also has a lot of different elements 134 00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:55.279 to it. When you think about solar, then it's basically 135 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:57.879 you can measure more or less all like the performance 136 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:00.319 of the system. You can really measure it. When you 137 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.079 can't measure, you somehow like model it. So you do 138 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:06.959 some performance forecasts and then you review it annually. And 139 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:10.120 then there are companies who have this kind of mindset 140 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:13.000 move it to storage and then they learn. For example, 141 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:16.240 one of the most important KPIs on storage is like 142 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:19.199 the level of charge, so the state of charge, and 143 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:22.720 it's actually not measured, so you have to estimate it 144 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:27.879 basically like the fundamental most crucial KPI on storage. It's 145 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:31.040 even not measurable, but it's just estimated, and things can 146 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:33.399 go wrong along the way because you do that for 147 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:35.879 all the components and you aggregate it up that we 148 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:39.960 get one sec for the whole storage. Then second, those 149 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:44.639 storages generate per megabat around ten to hundred x more data, 150 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:47.799 so it's a completely different call it the data shock. 151 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:51.240 It's just like the number of data which you pull 152 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:54.399 out of the storages is in the completely different more 153 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:59.000 order of magnitude compared to solar. Then third one is 154 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:03.240 in the story side. You build up your ltus as 155 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:07.799 your contractors with like integrators, then you think you're prepared, 156 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:11.679 but at the end, all this operational burden is still 157 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:15.120 with the operator and we all know that storage is 158 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:18.320 you have a completely different form of complexity, so you 159 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:22.360 have a lot of different cells in there inverters HVAC system. 160 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:26.120 It's also degrading how you operate the system like a 161 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:28.399 solar plan is there. It's just that you have a 162 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:31.519 performance with PVCYST, you have a performance forecast and then 163 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:34.600 you can trust it and you just check infrequently if 164 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:37.399 that is really right or wrong. And on the best side, 165 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:39.840 it's it can change from one month to the next. 166 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:45.279 So there's like a lot of technology nuances, a data complexity, 167 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:50.000 but also like the contractual elements are quite different on 168 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:52.120 the best side compared to the solar side. 169 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:54.519 Can I follow up and just asked us a question 170 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:58.279 from a different side, which is quid operator. What I 171 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:01.639 certainly say is that what you've got is a lot 172 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:05.679 of grid operators that are scared, say batteries, and they're 173 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:08.399 even blocking them. And particularly in your own home country, Germany. 174 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:10.960 What's your view with that and what would you say 175 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:13.159 to a grid operator if they were from TNL. 176 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:17.440 What grid operators are really like a scared of is 177 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:20.320 that when they need the capacity, the capacity or the 178 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:23.120 power needs to be there from the storage because they 179 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:26.600 need to be fully reliable for operating the grid that 180 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:32.120 a certain frequency and a certain reliability, and I think 181 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:34.440 they are not used to it or have don't have 182 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:37.519 the experience yet if that's really happening, and due to 183 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:39.960 that they're building up some worst case scenarios. So when 184 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:42.200 in Germany you want to place a storage somewhere in 185 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:46.000 the grid, they always make some calculation and say, okay, 186 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:48.960 when for example, in a certain moment in time, the 187 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:53.080 storage does something wrong in charges instead of discharging, what 188 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:55.720 does it do the grid? And then of course they 189 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:59.159 calculate a lot with the worst case scenarios and somehow 190 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:02.200 disappear what time that's this may hope, when like the 191 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:05.519 industry is really making sure that the storage is all 192 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:08.120 behaving how they should behave and that is also like 193 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:11.200 the point where where we are plucking in the more 194 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:14.679 model storages get part of this critical infrastructure. You really 195 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:17.679 need to make sure that when the grid requests a 196 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.919 certain power level or a certain energy level, that the 197 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:25.039 storage really performs how the grid is demanding it. And 198 00:11:25.639 --> 00:11:29.960 that's not in all cases really true. Right now, if I. 199 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:33.720 Look at the markets that are developed the most recently, 200 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:38.840 so California, AIRCOT, GB, Australia, and I guess you've got 201 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:42.919 clients in all those places. Other data and condition the 202 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.799 same all over the place. Or it's more like supplier dependent, 203 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:48.720 like if I put the Tesla, it's going to behavey 204 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:51.159 like this, and if I put the fluence or BYD 205 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:55.559 is going to so is it geography or a supplier. 206 00:11:55.279 --> 00:12:01.039 Linked Right now, twice we have experienced Australian market, the 207 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:04.120 European market, and the America, so North America but also 208 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:08.879 South America, and there is like one overarching theme there. 209 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:14.799 Batteries get part of the critical infrastructure. And like most 210 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:18.519 of the suppliers right now are coming from Free or 211 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:23.519 China especially, and there's a lot of regulatory happening. It 212 00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:27.480 will get even sharper and strengthened the last couple of years. 213 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:33.759 How like this critical infrastructure gets analyzed, monitored, observed, what 214 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:36.559 kind of data gets out of the storages? How do 215 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:40.559 you control it? And in Australia, in Europe, in the 216 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:45.600 US market, everyone thinks from their geopolitical perspective, batteries is 217 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:50.399 part of the grid infrastructure and are very mindful of 218 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:52.799 what kind of suppliers they're pulling in. Due to that, 219 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:56.480 when you're like, for example, a Chinese bettery integrator, you 220 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:59.559 have hard time to also do the monitoring or analytics 221 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:03.720 in Europe, the US or Australia, that's of course not 222 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:06.720 true like in countries like China. That is one big 223 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:09.799 element and that gets sharpest. For example, on our end, 224 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:12.399 we have a local cloud in the US market, we 225 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:14.799 have a local cloud in Australia market, with a local 226 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:18.960 cloud in a European market. Because every country tries to 227 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:22.320 regulate and really wants to make sure that no foreign 228 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:27.360 party gets access or control of this critical infrastructure. There's 229 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:31.120 one element, and the second one is because you're asked 230 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:34.879 about the suppliers, that definitely has changed. I'm in the 231 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:39.200 industry now over whatever like eleven twelve years, and there 232 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:44.360 is overall the trend. When the industry is younger, companies 233 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.080 start vertical, try to do it all. And when the 234 00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:52.879 industry is more maturing, you have like more specialized solutions 235 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:55.799 which more or less pile up. And that happens there 236 00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:58.559 as well. Right like you have integrators who wanted to 237 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:02.679 do everything, like you know, like DCAC block the EMS, 238 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:06.480 the monitoring and everything. But now when you go and 239 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:09.919 step back, you're an ipp you buy and storage from 240 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:13.919 for example, Fluence, then you have one storage from Fluence. 241 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:16.559 So when you buy the monitoring or like the emas 242 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:19.600 from Fluence, that works. But as soon as you add 243 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:22.240 a second or third or fourth at a certain moment 244 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:25.600 in time, all of our customers are start diversifying. So 245 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:27.639 you can't put all your eggs in one basket. When 246 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:31.080 like there's an insolvency, bankruptcy from an integrator or some 247 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.279 risk to it, so they have to hatch and that 248 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.919 basic leads that they have usually portfolios they're building up 249 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:42.559 with different integrators at a certain extent, different emas providers. 250 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:45.960 And then you need like one single pane of glass 251 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:49.080 or like one single place of truth for your data. 252 00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:55.679 But this trend also shapes for example, data availability because before, 253 00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:59.960 when like it's very verticalized and vertical integrated, there will 254 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:03.879 more data scarcity. And now actually it opens a way 255 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:08.120 more up because the portfolios are differentiated and the IPPs 256 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:11.480 get more professionalized, and then really also choosing the right 257 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:13.120 supplier for the right topic. 258 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:16.480 For instance, in Europe we've seen recently there's a bit 259 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:19.200 of a clash around the Chinese invertors, and I guess 260 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:22.159 they are not a load in the US, but probably 261 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:24.200 there are a load in Australia. I don't know. So 262 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:29.240 how do you navigate all that, especially data protection and 263 00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:33.960 certainly cyber the government ask you anything when they start 264 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:37.600 putting those regulations, or you just find out reading the newspaper. 265 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:44.399 On our end, we definitely are like cyber security and 266 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:47.440 data security is a very important topic for us. That's 267 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:49.519 like core of our business as we're dealing with a 268 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:52.720 lot of the data. There are so many dynamics right 269 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:55.559 now in those countries and every country is handling it 270 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:58.519 a bit differently. But the overarching trend when you think 271 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:03.039 about the invertor side, the European Investment Bank and European 272 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:07.039 Investment Fund they are investing in renewable projects in Europe, 273 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:11.360 and what basically like this ban is about says that 274 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.919 those two entities European Investment Bank and European Investment Fund, 275 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:20.519 they are not allowed anymore after November to invest into 276 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:23.759 battery projects but also solar and wind project which has 277 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:27.720 inverters which are owned from you know, like risky countries 278 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:31.679 like for example China. At the end, for US, it 279 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:36.360 does not change a lot. I think it's the trend 280 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:41.120 is that it just adds more complexity in the supply 281 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:44.759 chain because you get more different vendors because you still 282 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:48.120 source like the DC blocks from China. Now what it 283 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.399 does change before it was integrated your DC and like 284 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:55.000 the pcsory, like everything bundled together. Now what it does 285 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:58.440 basically rip this component out again, so now it gets 286 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.440 again more diversified. You buy the DISC block from this 287 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:04.559 company and thenvert it from the other company and MS 288 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:06.920 from the next company. At the end, you have like 289 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:10.599 one hundred million of dollar asset or eurosset out there, 290 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:14.960 and you need to make sure to independently analyze and 291 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.640 monitor it. And really also when things go sideways or wrong, 292 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:21.400 who has to solve it? When you have an LTZA 293 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:24.480 in place, actually you know who breached it, and to 294 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:28.119 get like this perspective strengthens what we are doing. But 295 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:31.480 independently from that, on the other hand, the downside of 296 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:34.839 its complexity, and you know, like you always pull the 297 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:37.920 industry a bit back and slow it because it just 298 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.960 gets either more expensive when you source the PCs inverters 299 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:43.720 in Europe or DS market, you have less suppliers and 300 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:44.839 all of those kinds of things. 301 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:47.799 So I think, can I just follow up on that? 302 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:49.519 You know, for me, and a verter is a piece 303 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:52.839 of hardware, right, the key thing is the control system. 304 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:56.440 So surely what you have to do is you put 305 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.839 a control there on top of and I'm not even 306 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:03.039 just talking about future but I'm even talking about existing 307 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:06.079 inverters that around there. Surely that's what we have to 308 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:08.279 do going forward. Or am I thinking about it wrong? 309 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.559 No, you're right. So at the end, like every integrator 310 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:15.240 would say, no, batteries are not just a piece of hardware, 311 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:19.759 But you're right, like the hardware gets more commoditized. And 312 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:22.559 there is for example, this survey we all did together 313 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:25.480 with EPRI in the US, whether they build up this 314 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:32.000 failure database and they looked into where do actually like 315 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:37.400 safety interdets come from, and forty percent are actually from 316 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:42.079 the control part, forty percent are from balance of material 317 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:45.319 like h VX systems and all other components inverts ands on, 318 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:48.839 and twenty percent comes from the cell. Of course, the 319 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:51.519 cell and the batteries are still like the major part 320 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:55.599 of the storage is there are certain parts get more commoditized, 321 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:59.720 but you're right, the control part plays a big grow 322 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:03.519 in the future projects. But there are two elements to it. 323 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:07.519 The control layer is not one layer because you usually 324 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:09.440 you have like your storage, then you have an energy 325 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:13.880 management system which is really there to operate the storage 326 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:17.079 based on how this battery should be charged or discharged. 327 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:20.079 But then they're also like additional layers on top of it, 328 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:23.440 for example a monitoring analytics layer to understand across the 329 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:27.160 fleet the performance capabilities and those kind of things. So 330 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:29.759 there are different layers which are stacked up to really 331 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:32.960 like make a not the single storage, but really your 332 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:34.680 whole portfolio for a customer work. 333 00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:37.559 Yeah, I was just want coming from an energy security 334 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.640 point of view, if you're talking about making the system 335 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:44.440 resilient against cyber attack, if I'm managing an asset and 336 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:47.079 I've got a fluent energy management system, and then i 337 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.200 might have a Siemens one. This is all too complicated, 338 00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:52.079 So what I want to be able to do is 339 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:54.839 to have one system, which sort of tells me that 340 00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:57.079 you're going to end up with the control system being 341 00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:02.519 independent of the manufacturer, because from a portfolio management perspective, 342 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:06.200 I want that, and secondly, just from a national security perspective, 343 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.200 you want that as well. Exactly the way you see 344 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.480 that going forward, you're right. 345 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.559 The control but also like the monitoring analytics layer or 346 00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:20.000 two elements which will most of the time not come 347 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:24.039 from the hardware manufacturer. But having said so, the energy 348 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:27.200 management system is such an integral part of an energy 349 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:30.839 storage and everyone there author party solutions out there in 350 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:32.839 the market, and we have a lot of customers who 351 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:35.680 use them as well, but it's very hard to integrate 352 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:37.799 them because it's also like a lot of their hardware 353 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:42.000 integration into the storage assets, which make it way tougher 354 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:44.880 to functioning. So maybe it's better from a level perspective, 355 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:47.759 and maybe it's better from a cybersecurity perspective, but you know, 356 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.400 you still need to be able to operate your storages 357 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:55.839 in general, you're right, several layers control, monitoring, the reporting layer. 358 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:59.599 When the portfolios are growing, you will try to unify 359 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:02.640 that and it also makes it a way easier for 360 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:06.319 you to protect it. And the first level you're doing 361 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:10.440 is you really separated. You read or read and write. 362 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:13.400 For example, our system, we are only read. We take 363 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:17.000 the data, generate informations, give it to our customers, but 364 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:20.119 we don't have direct control access to the assets. That 365 00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.799 is for example, one part of it. But there are 366 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.400 like certain things like EMS, which is always like very 367 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:30.359 controlled because you're really writing and steering their assets. And 368 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:32.480 due to that you also need to certify and with 369 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:35.319 the grid operators your EMS and so on, and that 370 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:37.400 is out but also challenge because when you go and 371 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:41.759 step back as an ipp or utility company, you grow 372 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.680 your portfolio and you need to always de risk it. 373 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.720 So you build up your portfolio with different integrators, but 374 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:52.480 you will also need to build up with different revenue models. 375 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:55.240 But you also need to build up with different markets. 376 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:58.440 So when you're based in the UK market and build 377 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:02.640 up your portfolio, try to also put some storages in 378 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.079 the Italian market, or you put also some storages in 379 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:09.240 the Australian market because you just also like hatch the 380 00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:12.599 market risk. But then the challenge is that often the 381 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:16.240 control piece it's maybe not certified in Australia or not 382 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:18.880 certified in Italian and so due to that, it's very 383 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:23.599 challenging for IPS and utility companies to really get this 384 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:26.880 one layer for all, especially on the control side. 385 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:29.640 Surely the big opportunity for you going forward is to 386 00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:32.480 move from being a read player to a read and 387 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:36.319 write player. In other words, you really do offer the controls. 388 00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:39.079 On our end, there are like too many opportunities. That's 389 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.480 usually hard things for companies when there are too many 390 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:45.720 opportunities and you need to make sure that you still 391 00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:50.279 keep focused. Our core goal is to really help our 392 00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:54.920 companies to turn to proactive best operations. That basically means 393 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:57.880 that they across their fleet. When you have an asset manager, 394 00:22:58.039 --> 00:23:01.119 you can overseee a lot more than you have done 395 00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:04.319 before that you really make sure you always understand what 396 00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:08.799 are actually cause performance problems and how to fix them. 397 00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:12.680 When there would be a warranty lane am I prepared 398 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:16.200 for it? So really making sure that everything which comes 399 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:21.000 from properly operating and managing those assets that it's going 400 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:25.400 deep and across the portfolio and it's really like more 401 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:28.160