Speaker 1: With a round segle end from London and Gerard read
Speaker 1: from Berlin.
Speaker 2: This is redefining energy today.
Speaker 3: On Redefending Energy job, we're gonna talk about the growing
Speaker 3: complexity of battery fleet management.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, not easily wrong, not easy topic.
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Speaker 3: Back to the show.
Speaker 2: Batteries can be anything from a battery in your home
Speaker 2: is nine kilo what hours and then you can have
Speaker 2: a gig one hours on the other side, and there's
Speaker 2: a sports not just in one country, but a copy
Speaker 2: across the world. Yeah, so that's a big topic.
Speaker 3: Now. The thing is, with the development of batteries, you
Speaker 3: would think that battery management would become easier, but in
Speaker 3: fact it's becoming more complex because you have data risk.
Speaker 3: You have a growing number of suppliers. The supply chain
Speaker 3: which is to be integrated now are in disintegration mode.
Speaker 3: The software stack are evolving all the time, the regulation changes.
Speaker 3: It's so easy to lose control of your battery fleet.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, as we believe that storage is really one of
Speaker 2: the revolutionary technologies of the twenty first century, we need
Speaker 2: to think it's important a cage need to become a
Speaker 2: little bit peakish, dig into the weeds and stuff.
Speaker 3: So we have a great guest, Stefan rou the CEO
Speaker 3: of Twice, one of germany leading battery analytics company.
Speaker 2: Yeah and back around. Twice has become a major global
Speaker 2: player in recent years with over one hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: employees basically made up a battery scientists chemist, software engineers,
Speaker 2: data scientists and the copy is raised about irking sixty
Speaker 2: million in equity at this point in time and twenty
Speaker 2: five million adapt finance EIB with a big growth opportunity
Speaker 2: in front.
Speaker 3: Before we bring Stefan on the show, we have something new,
Speaker 3: the Geek Alert. It is a very geeky episode. I
Speaker 3: love it.
Speaker 2: Stefan. Great to have you on the show.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3: He Stefan, what you're doing looks extremely technical, so please
Speaker 3: get you explain a bit what twice is doing in
Speaker 3: terms of services.
Speaker 4: Twice as an independent data analytics platform for proactive best operations.
Speaker 4: That sounds long, but basically what it is. When IPPs
Speaker 4: or utility companies build up portfolios and operating energy storage
Speaker 4: I talk about larger scale utility scale energy storage, they
Speaker 4: really need to understand what is the performance of the
Speaker 4: system or the system safe, how long do the system run,
Speaker 4: do I still operate the systems in the warranty or not?
Speaker 4: And all of those kinds of things can be very
Speaker 4: much like data power data informed. So due to that
Speaker 4: we are you know, like pulling out the data from
Speaker 4: the storages in operations and give our customers, the IPPs
Speaker 4: and the utilities, the asset management teams, the performance engineers,
Speaker 4: the maintenance teams one few of their single storages, but
Speaker 4: also of the whole portfolio and help them to level
Speaker 4: up performance to really make sure that they have like
Speaker 4: the right risk assessment of their storage is when they
Speaker 4: operate them, and also helping them do that all more efficiently.
Speaker 4: Because everyone started developing batteries but really last year a
Speaker 4: lot of the assets get reoperational, and now like the
Speaker 4: operational challenges are getting more severe and the companies also
Speaker 4: get serious about it, and Twice really focusing on this
Speaker 4: proactive BASS operation. So that's at the core of our company.
Speaker 3: So basically, you're plugging on the BMS or the EMS,
Speaker 3: you'll tell me which one, and you're capturing voltage, temperature.
Speaker 3: What kind of data are you managing exactly?
Speaker 4: You can imagine like Twice is really sitting above the
Speaker 4: EMS system, So we're pulling data from the skater system
Speaker 4: or the EMS system, and it's AC level data and
Speaker 4: DC level data pH back from their PCs, from the inverters,
Speaker 4: but also from the REX so from the DC plocks
Speaker 4: down to at a certain extent to the cell level,
Speaker 4: but in most cases it's right like a bit higher level.
Speaker 4: We're putting all this voltage and temperature and current data
Speaker 4: out and then we push it into our platform and
Speaker 4: then then like we unify the data and then we
Speaker 4: calculate a lot of different insights or generate a lot
Speaker 4: of different insights. For example, what is the usable energy
Speaker 4: of the system. Everyone thinks, you know, it's a straightforward
Speaker 4: KPI how much energy you can use from the system.
Speaker 4: But it's just not true because a certain extent year
Speaker 4: of your system is parts of offline. Some systems are imbalanced.
Speaker 4: You have some weak components in this system, and that
Speaker 4: all takes it into consideration, sums it up to a
Speaker 4: usable energy and then our customers can really assess, Okay,
Speaker 4: I have four and ot mega about hours installed, but
Speaker 4: I can only use three hundred and sixty megabout ours? Actually,
Speaker 4: where do we lose those forty mega about ours? And
Speaker 4: what do I need to do? What do I need
Speaker 4: to change? How do I need to run my maintenance?
Speaker 4: And may recur to really unlock those forty mega about ours?
Speaker 2: Steppen, maybe just jump in there and just I'd like
Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about the best market in general,
Speaker 2: right because I mean, I think what's happening around what
Speaker 2: one hundred percent go along with the view thaties are
Speaker 2: a revolution, But the one thing that I see is
Speaker 2: a lot of the operators actually don't know how to
Speaker 2: run these batteries properly, and they're probably not set up.
Speaker 2: They've been used to sort of solar feed and tire
Speaker 2: some wind freedom towers for many many years and now
Speaker 2: suddenly they've got this dynamic asset, which is yeah, it's
Speaker 2: very different than what they've been used to beforehand.
Speaker 4: Yes, so you're absolutely right. There are two thoughts here.
Speaker 4: So first, what changes with batteries is that they are
Speaker 4: really getting like a fundamental part of future power system,
Speaker 4: So they're getting part of the grid. Therefore they need
Speaker 4: to be fully reliable. Are we there right now to
Speaker 4: operate them fully reliable? Not in our opinion, not yet.
Speaker 4: Which just made a survey beginning of this year and
Speaker 4: interviewed around hundred operators IPPs utility companies and how often
Speaker 4: do they experience incidents and it's around eighty percent of
Speaker 4: them experience more or less monthly. Some unexpects that incidents
Speaker 4: in their storages and around forty percent of them have
Speaker 4: like some revenue impact. So there you can already see
Speaker 4: that as operational excellence of those The storage market is
Speaker 4: not thea yet to really be a fundamental part to
Speaker 4: the grid. What you're referring to is why does that happen?
Speaker 4: And you're up to right. Most of the companies, especially
Speaker 4: in Europe, which move into storage r have developed and
Speaker 4: operating solar plants before or wind plants before, but it's
Speaker 4: a completely different game when you now add storage, and
Speaker 4: storage is very different to solar. Why is that a
Speaker 4: different beast? Solo and wind not power generating assets. Storages
Speaker 4: are some like a dispatchable capacity. You can charge and
Speaker 4: discharge them. It also has a lot of different elements
Speaker 4: to it. When you think about solar, then it's basically
Speaker 4: you can measure more or less all like the performance
Speaker 4: of the system. You can really measure it. When you
Speaker 4: can't measure, you somehow like model it. So you do
Speaker 4: some performance forecasts and then you review it annually. And
Speaker 4: then there are companies who have this kind of mindset
Speaker 4: move it to storage and then they learn. For example,
Speaker 4: one of the most important KPIs on storage is like
Speaker 4: the level of charge, so the state of charge, and
Speaker 4: it's actually not measured, so you have to estimate it
Speaker 4: basically like the fundamental most crucial KPI on storage. It's
Speaker 4: even not measurable, but it's just estimated, and things can
Speaker 4: go wrong along the way because you do that for
Speaker 4: all the components and you aggregate it up that we
Speaker 4: get one sec for the whole storage. Then second, those
Speaker 4: storages generate per megabat around ten to hundred x more data,
Speaker 4: so it's a completely different call it the data shock.
Speaker 4: It's just like the number of data which you pull
Speaker 4: out of the storages is in the completely different more
Speaker 4: order of magnitude compared to solar. Then third one is
Speaker 4: in the story side. You build up your ltus as
Speaker 4: your contractors with like integrators, then you think you're prepared,
Speaker 4: but at the end, all this operational burden is still
Speaker 4: with the operator and we all know that storage is
Speaker 4: you have a completely different form of complexity, so you
Speaker 4: have a lot of different cells in there inverters HVAC system.
Speaker 4: It's also degrading how you operate the system like a
Speaker 4: solar plan is there. It's just that you have a
Speaker 4: performance with PVCYST, you have a performance forecast and then
Speaker 4: you can trust it and you just check infrequently if
Speaker 4: that is really right or wrong. And on the best side,
Speaker 4: it's it can change from one month to the next.
Speaker 4: So there's like a lot of technology nuances, a data complexity,
Speaker 4: but also like the contractual elements are quite different on
Speaker 4: the best side compared to the solar side.
Speaker 2: Can I follow up and just asked us a question
Speaker 2: from a different side, which is quid operator. What I
Speaker 2: certainly say is that what you've got is a lot
Speaker 2: of grid operators that are scared, say batteries, and they're
Speaker 2: even blocking them. And particularly in your own home country, Germany.
Speaker 2: What's your view with that and what would you say
Speaker 2: to a grid operator if they were from TNL.
Speaker 4: What grid operators are really like a scared of is
Speaker 4: that when they need the capacity, the capacity or the
Speaker 4: power needs to be there from the storage because they
Speaker 4: need to be fully reliable for operating the grid that
Speaker 4: a certain frequency and a certain reliability, and I think
Speaker 4: they are not used to it or have don't have
Speaker 4: the experience yet if that's really happening, and due to
Speaker 4: that they're building up some worst case scenarios. So when
Speaker 4: in Germany you want to place a storage somewhere in
Speaker 4: the grid, they always make some calculation and say, okay,
Speaker 4: when for example, in a certain moment in time, the
Speaker 4: storage does something wrong in charges instead of discharging, what
Speaker 4: does it do the grid? And then of course they
Speaker 4: calculate a lot with the worst case scenarios and somehow
Speaker 4: disappear what time that's this may hope, when like the
Speaker 4: industry is really making sure that the storage is all
Speaker 4: behaving how they should behave and that is also like
Speaker 4: the point where where we are plucking in the more
Speaker 4: model storages get part of this critical infrastructure. You really
Speaker 4: need to make sure that when the grid requests a
Speaker 4: certain power level or a certain energy level, that the
Speaker 4: storage really performs how the grid is demanding it. And
Speaker 4: that's not in all cases really true. Right now, if I.
Speaker 3: Look at the markets that are developed the most recently,
Speaker 3: so California, AIRCOT, GB, Australia, and I guess you've got
Speaker 3: clients in all those places. Other data and condition the
Speaker 3: same all over the place. Or it's more like supplier dependent,
Speaker 3: like if I put the Tesla, it's going to behavey
Speaker 3: like this, and if I put the fluence or BYD
Speaker 3: is going to so is it geography or a supplier.
Speaker 4: Linked Right now, twice we have experienced Australian market, the
Speaker 4: European market, and the America, so North America but also
Speaker 4: South America, and there is like one overarching theme there.
Speaker 4: Batteries get part of the critical infrastructure. And like most
Speaker 4: of the suppliers right now are coming from Free or
Speaker 4: China especially, and there's a lot of regulatory happening. It
Speaker 4: will get even sharper and strengthened the last couple of years.
Speaker 4: How like this critical infrastructure gets analyzed, monitored, observed, what
Speaker 4: kind of data gets out of the storages? How do
Speaker 4: you control it? And in Australia, in Europe, in the
Speaker 4: US market, everyone thinks from their geopolitical perspective, batteries is
Speaker 4: part of the grid infrastructure and are very mindful of
Speaker 4: what kind of suppliers they're pulling in. Due to that,
Speaker 4: when you're like, for example, a Chinese bettery integrator, you
Speaker 4: have hard time to also do the monitoring or analytics
Speaker 4: in Europe, the US or Australia, that's of course not
Speaker 4: true like in countries like China. That is one big
Speaker 4: element and that gets sharpest. For example, on our end,
Speaker 4: we have a local cloud in the US market, we
Speaker 4: have a local cloud in Australia market, with a local
Speaker 4: cloud in a European market. Because every country tries to
Speaker 4: regulate and really wants to make sure that no foreign
Speaker 4: party gets access or control of this critical infrastructure. There's
Speaker 4: one element, and the second one is because you're asked
Speaker 4: about the suppliers, that definitely has changed. I'm in the
Speaker 4: industry now over whatever like eleven twelve years, and there
Speaker 4: is overall the trend. When the industry is younger, companies
Speaker 4: start vertical, try to do it all. And when the
Speaker 4: industry is more maturing, you have like more specialized solutions
Speaker 4: which more or less pile up. And that happens there
Speaker 4: as well. Right like you have integrators who wanted to
Speaker 4: do everything, like you know, like DCAC block the EMS,
Speaker 4: the monitoring and everything. But now when you go and
Speaker 4: step back, you're an ipp you buy and storage from
Speaker 4: for example, Fluence, then you have one storage from Fluence.
Speaker 4: So when you buy the monitoring or like the emas
Speaker 4: from Fluence, that works. But as soon as you add
Speaker 4: a second or third or fourth at a certain moment
Speaker 4: in time, all of our customers are start diversifying. So
Speaker 4: you can't put all your eggs in one basket. When
Speaker 4: like there's an insolvency, bankruptcy from an integrator or some
Speaker 4: risk to it, so they have to hatch and that
Speaker 4: basic leads that they have usually portfolios they're building up
Speaker 4: with different integrators at a certain extent, different emas providers.
Speaker 4: And then you need like one single pane of glass
Speaker 4: or like one single place of truth for your data.
Speaker 4: But this trend also shapes for example, data availability because before,
Speaker 4: when like it's very verticalized and vertical integrated, there will
Speaker 4: more data scarcity. And now actually it opens a way
Speaker 4: more up because the portfolios are differentiated and the IPPs
Speaker 4: get more professionalized, and then really also choosing the right
Speaker 4: supplier for the right topic.
Speaker 3: For instance, in Europe we've seen recently there's a bit
Speaker 3: of a clash around the Chinese invertors, and I guess
Speaker 3: they are not a load in the US, but probably
Speaker 3: there are a load in Australia. I don't know. So
Speaker 3: how do you navigate all that, especially data protection and
Speaker 3: certainly cyber the government ask you anything when they start
Speaker 3: putting those regulations, or you just find out reading the newspaper.
Speaker 4: On our end, we definitely are like cyber security and
Speaker 4: data security is a very important topic for us. That's
Speaker 4: like core of our business as we're dealing with a
Speaker 4: lot of the data. There are so many dynamics right
Speaker 4: now in those countries and every country is handling it
Speaker 4: a bit differently. But the overarching trend when you think
Speaker 4: about the invertor side, the European Investment Bank and European
Speaker 4: Investment Fund they are investing in renewable projects in Europe,
Speaker 4: and what basically like this ban is about says that
Speaker 4: those two entities European Investment Bank and European Investment Fund,
Speaker 4: they are not allowed anymore after November to invest into
Speaker 4: battery projects but also solar and wind project which has
Speaker 4: inverters which are owned from you know, like risky countries
Speaker 4: like for example China. At the end, for US, it
Speaker 4: does not change a lot. I think it's the trend
Speaker 4: is that it just adds more complexity in the supply
Speaker 4: chain because you get more different vendors because you still
Speaker 4: source like the DC blocks from China. Now what it
Speaker 4: does change before it was integrated your DC and like
Speaker 4: the pcsory, like everything bundled together. Now what it does
Speaker 4: basically rip this component out again, so now it gets
Speaker 4: again more diversified. You buy the DISC block from this
Speaker 4: company and thenvert it from the other company and MS
Speaker 4: from the next company. At the end, you have like
Speaker 4: one hundred million of dollar asset or eurosset out there,
Speaker 4: and you need to make sure to independently analyze and
Speaker 4: monitor it. And really also when things go sideways or wrong,
Speaker 4: who has to solve it? When you have an LTZA
Speaker 4: in place, actually you know who breached it, and to
Speaker 4: get like this perspective strengthens what we are doing. But
Speaker 4: independently from that, on the other hand, the downside of
Speaker 4: its complexity, and you know, like you always pull the
Speaker 4: industry a bit back and slow it because it just
Speaker 4: gets either more expensive when you source the PCs inverters
Speaker 4: in Europe or DS market, you have less suppliers and
Speaker 4: all of those kinds of things.
Speaker 2: So I think, can I just follow up on that?
Speaker 2: You know, for me, and a verter is a piece
Speaker 2: of hardware, right, the key thing is the control system.
Speaker 2: So surely what you have to do is you put
Speaker 2: a control there on top of and I'm not even
Speaker 2: just talking about future but I'm even talking about existing
Speaker 2: inverters that around there. Surely that's what we have to
Speaker 2: do going forward. Or am I thinking about it wrong?
Speaker 4: No, you're right. So at the end, like every integrator
Speaker 4: would say, no, batteries are not just a piece of hardware,
Speaker 4: But you're right, like the hardware gets more commoditized. And
Speaker 4: there is for example, this survey we all did together
Speaker 4: with EPRI in the US, whether they build up this
Speaker 4: failure database and they looked into where do actually like
Speaker 4: safety interdets come from, and forty percent are actually from
Speaker 4: the control part, forty percent are from balance of material
Speaker 4: like h VX systems and all other components inverts ands on,
Speaker 4: and twenty percent comes from the cell. Of course, the
Speaker 4: cell and the batteries are still like the major part
Speaker 4: of the storage is there are certain parts get more commoditized,
Speaker 4: but you're right, the control part plays a big grow
Speaker 4: in the future projects. But there are two elements to it.
Speaker 4: The control layer is not one layer because you usually
Speaker 4: you have like your storage, then you have an energy
Speaker 4: management system which is really there to operate the storage
Speaker 4: based on how this battery should be charged or discharged.
Speaker 4: But then they're also like additional layers on top of it,
Speaker 4: for example a monitoring analytics layer to understand across the
Speaker 4: fleet the performance capabilities and those kind of things. So
Speaker 4: there are different layers which are stacked up to really
Speaker 4: like make a not the single storage, but really your
Speaker 4: whole portfolio for a customer work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just want coming from an energy security
Speaker 2: point of view, if you're talking about making the system
Speaker 2: resilient against cyber attack, if I'm managing an asset and
Speaker 2: I've got a fluent energy management system, and then i
Speaker 2: might have a Siemens one. This is all too complicated,
Speaker 2: So what I want to be able to do is
Speaker 2: to have one system, which sort of tells me that
Speaker 2: you're going to end up with the control system being
Speaker 2: independent of the manufacturer, because from a portfolio management perspective,
Speaker 2: I want that, and secondly, just from a national security perspective,
Speaker 2: you want that as well. Exactly the way you see
Speaker 2: that going forward, you're right.
Speaker 4: The control but also like the monitoring analytics layer or
Speaker 4: two elements which will most of the time not come
Speaker 4: from the hardware manufacturer. But having said so, the energy
Speaker 4: management system is such an integral part of an energy
Speaker 4: storage and everyone there author party solutions out there in
Speaker 4: the market, and we have a lot of customers who
Speaker 4: use them as well, but it's very hard to integrate
Speaker 4: them because it's also like a lot of their hardware
Speaker 4: integration into the storage assets, which make it way tougher
Speaker 4: to functioning. So maybe it's better from a level perspective,
Speaker 4: and maybe it's better from a cybersecurity perspective, but you know,
Speaker 4: you still need to be able to operate your storages
Speaker 4: in general, you're right, several layers control, monitoring, the reporting layer.
Speaker 4: When the portfolios are growing, you will try to unify
Speaker 4: that and it also makes it a way easier for
Speaker 4: you to protect it. And the first level you're doing
Speaker 4: is you really separated. You read or read and write.
Speaker 4: For example, our system, we are only read. We take
Speaker 4: the data, generate informations, give it to our customers, but
Speaker 4: we don't have direct control access to the assets. That
Speaker 4: is for example, one part of it. But there are
Speaker 4: like certain things like EMS, which is always like very
Speaker 4: controlled because you're really writing and steering their assets. And
Speaker 4: due to that you also need to certify and with
Speaker 4: the grid operators your EMS and so on, and that
Speaker 4: is out but also challenge because when you go and
Speaker 4: step back as an ipp or utility company, you grow
Speaker 4: your portfolio and you need to always de risk it.
Speaker 4: So you build up your portfolio with different integrators, but
Speaker 4: you will also need to build up with different revenue models.
Speaker 4: But you also need to build up with different markets.
Speaker 4: So when you're based in the UK market and build
Speaker 4: up your portfolio, try to also put some storages in
Speaker 4: the Italian market, or you put also some storages in
Speaker 4: the Australian market because you just also like hatch the
Speaker 4: market risk. But then the challenge is that often the
Speaker 4: control piece it's maybe not certified in Australia or not
Speaker 4: certified in Italian and so due to that, it's very
Speaker 4: challenging for IPS and utility companies to really get this
Speaker 4: one layer for all, especially on the control side.
Speaker 2: Surely the big opportunity for you going forward is to
Speaker 2: move from being a read player to a read and
Speaker 2: write player. In other words, you really do offer the controls.
Speaker 4: On our end, there are like too many opportunities. That's
Speaker 4: usually hard things for companies when there are too many
Speaker 4: opportunities and you need to make sure that you still
Speaker 4: keep focused. Our core goal is to really help our
Speaker 4: companies to turn to proactive best operations. That basically means
Speaker 4: that they across their fleet. When you have an asset manager,
Speaker 4: you can overseee a lot more than you have done
Speaker 4: before that you really make sure you always understand what
Speaker 4: are actually cause performance problems and how to fix them.
Speaker 4: When there would be a warranty lane am I prepared
Speaker 4: for it? So really making sure that everything which comes
Speaker 4: from properly operating and managing those assets that it's going
Speaker 4: deep and across the portfolio and it's really like more
Speaker 4: and more optimized. That is our core intention to do.
Speaker 4: And when you move into the control part, you're really
Speaker 4: integrating with the asset, which makes it for our customer
Speaker 4: harder when you really also especially are scaling globally.
Speaker 3: Those batteries are supposed to last ten, fifteen, twenty years.
Speaker 3: That long duration has been properly managed by solar and wind,
Speaker 3: but we've seen recently that some system dating from even
Speaker 3: like eight nine years ago, and of course they were
Speaker 3: made by power an MC Korean. I don't want a
Speaker 3: necktive supplier than to ignite. So how do you see
Speaker 3: your role in relation to those asset degrading over time?
Speaker 4: To structure the question? First of all, you're right. So
Speaker 4: the first asset there was for example HEAH in the UK,
Speaker 4: mar Get the fire in May and rofered from twenty
Speaker 4: seventeen and it was like an MC battery from like
Speaker 4: a Korean supplier pouch cell. All of our current systems
Speaker 4: which are deployed or LFP cell chemistry, so in general
Speaker 4: they are safer and that is like the current technology.
Speaker 4: But in the past, the industry deployed mc batteries. And
Speaker 4: at the second one is the storages. We were installed
Speaker 4: in twenty seventeen. They were completely differently tested and different sheams,
Speaker 4: and it's also a way less professionalized how it's run today.
Speaker 4: Having said so, it was caused from a cell problem.
Speaker 4: We also have seen this problem already before in some
Speaker 4: other data sets, and those things can be detected. It's
Speaker 4: just an event everyone wants to avoid or should avoid.
Speaker 4: When you look into the data, it can be very helpful.
Speaker 4: Can you detect all of the problems. Likely not, but
Speaker 4: you can find a lot of things months in advance
Speaker 4: before those things are happening. When you think about like
Speaker 4: the twenty years or fifteen twenty years of lifetime, what
Speaker 4: we are experiencing is actually the storages get deployed, and
Speaker 4: very important of the first couple of years. It's the
Speaker 4: commissioning phase of the storage, the first one two years,
Speaker 4: because there's actually where you have more or less than
Speaker 4: most problems, because you really need to make sure that
Speaker 4: the storage is really cables of banded the right way
Speaker 4: and the fans are all working and just like a mature,
Speaker 4: proper project, and you need to fix some things in
Speaker 4: this early phase but then when you have done your
Speaker 4: job well, it's running for a couple of years quite well,
Speaker 4: and then you're right, things are degrading from the batteries,
Speaker 4: from the worked, the fans, all of those those kind
Speaker 4: of things. The industry still not really focuses on that
Speaker 4: right now because everyone is really focused on making money,
Speaker 4: which is also a fair thing to do, and you
Speaker 4: want to squeeze out of your storages. In markets like
Speaker 4: Germany where you have like a lot of return per
Speaker 4: megabt right now, you squeeze the most out of your
Speaker 4: assets as you can with the certain limitations of performance
Speaker 4: guarantees in ltsa's and so on, and then hopefully you're
Speaker 4: more or less write it off the asset. But from
Speaker 4: a societal perspective, these assets will be in the grid
Speaker 4: for next fifteen to twenty years, so there will be
Speaker 4: a lot of operational challenges needs to be solved also
Speaker 4: for the LFP run newer systems in five, six, seven,
Speaker 4: eight years from now.
Speaker 2: Maybe the last question you could just talk a little
Speaker 2: bit about how you see the future twice and this
Speaker 2: exponentially growing battery mark.
Speaker 4: Our role gets more important when companies start really taking
Speaker 4: best operations series basically have a larger portfolios with different
Speaker 4: integrators and want to get the most out of their assets,
Speaker 4: want to avoid warranty claims, want to get better insurance
Speaker 4: premiums because they are real proactive in their best operations.
Speaker 4: And going forward for US is most of our existing
Speaker 4: customer bide based globally. They will double or triple they
Speaker 4: install capacity in twenty thirty so next three to five years,
Speaker 4: and we're really focusing on building their operational layer between
Speaker 4: like the EMS and their ASSEM management and performance engineering team.
Speaker 4: And it's a very crucial piece because as mentioned before,
Speaker 4: we remit to make sure that those assets are reliable
Speaker 4: and operating well in the system, and we will do
Speaker 4: that globally, so we already like have customers and assets
Speaker 4: in Chile and Australia and Europe. In the US market,
Speaker 4: that also is a quite interesting development because the batteries
Speaker 4: are all the same at a certain extent, but the
Speaker 4: operating models different regulatory setups are all quite different, and
Speaker 4: there will be a lot for us to explore the
Speaker 4: next couple of years to really help our as management
Speaker 4: perform the engineering teams to scale the best operations.
Speaker 3: The future is bright and you're a busy man. Stefan,
Speaker 3: thank you very much for coming on the show.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much. Thanks Sarah and.
Speaker 2: Lauren, Yeah, thank you great having you wellther wrong thoughts.
Speaker 3: Oh mg, it's great to have a guests like Stefan
Speaker 3: because you realize a certain number of things. Number One,
Speaker 3: best is a totally different beast from solar totally just
Speaker 3: the amount of data you receive. The second is, the
Speaker 3: competitive edge in batteries is not about buying proper hardware
Speaker 3: or software, is the excellence in operation. The third point
Speaker 3: is the issues of sovereign TEA are putting a lot
Speaker 3: of stress on the hardware and the software. And then
Speaker 3: what we concluded on is the twenty year question. Those
Speaker 3: are sets will remain on the grid for decades and
Speaker 3: you really need to track them down every second from
Speaker 3: system level to the same level, so it is super complex. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I want to make a point though as well, is
Speaker 2: the industry is really maturing. So if I go back
Speaker 2: to the first battery project I was involved with a
Speaker 2: decade ago, and even just the battery system that put
Speaker 2: in my house right by the way it had to
Speaker 2: be replaced, it gives you an idea there was a
Speaker 2: lot of mistakes made in the early adoption, but at
Speaker 2: this point in time, we are really managing these batteries
Speaker 2: in a safer way and a more economic way, and
Speaker 2: that's good for everybody.
Speaker 3: It is, but at the end of the day, we
Speaker 3: need guys like Stefan to harness that soon ami of
Speaker 3: data flows. That's how you perform and manage a battery fleet.
Speaker 3: You just can't use Excel sheets. Agreed. Total, Well, we
Speaker 3: like to thank Steph Fun It was a very illuminating
Speaker 3: conversation and Joe I took to you next week. Good order.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Redefining Energy. Don't forget to
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