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<v Speaker 1>Get value you can't argue with at Tesco with their

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<v Speaker 1>amazing club card prices. Have the perfect night in with

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<v Speaker 1>delicious spicy Salami, hot honey and do Ya or Margarito

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<v Speaker 1>wood fired pizzas, served up with their crispy chunkie chips

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<v Speaker 1>and ice cream like sea salted caramel or pistachio for dessert.

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<v Speaker 1>Can't argue with that shop in store or online. Tesco

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<v Speaker 1>Every Little helps available at most stores. Prices very in express.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh hello, it's all dad word and I am sick

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<v Speaker 2>as hell. It is Monday, the Monday after Thanksgiving twenty nineteen,

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<v Speaker 2>and I had a new episode for y'all, And then

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<v Speaker 2>I got a little sidetracked by sweating and shivering and

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<v Speaker 2>holding my head and asking my pillow.

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<v Speaker 3>Why why? Why me? Why why?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a human being? So I told myself I would

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<v Speaker 2>take it easy this week and give you all an

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<v Speaker 2>Encore presentation. There's so much people who have not heard

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<v Speaker 2>this episode, So if you happen to sleep on it

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<v Speaker 2>last summer when it first went up, get into it.

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<v Speaker 2>Now this ology doesn't roll off the tongue easily, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's all about tongues and dialects and the way that

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<v Speaker 2>we hear language. It is so good. So enjoy this

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<v Speaker 2>week's episode. I'll be back next week with a brand

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<v Speaker 2>new one and a diminished viral load hopefully. Okay, here

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<v Speaker 2>we go.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh hi, Hi, it's your weird coworker, the one who

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<v Speaker 4>brings in lemons from their tree but also sometimes microwaves

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<v Speaker 4>fish alley board for another episode of oologies.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so guess I'm dare right now. I'm using a

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<v Speaker 2>big glob of fat in nerves that I keep in

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<v Speaker 2>a bone bowl behind my eyes to make noises to

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<v Speaker 2>represent my thoughts, and then I beam those grunts to

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<v Speaker 2>a satellite using invisible data transmission, and then your nervy

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<v Speaker 2>fat glob is like, hmm, totally yeah, I get it.

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<v Speaker 2>So my brain to your brain. It's magic, people. So

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<v Speaker 2>today we're gonna be speaking about speaking. I'm pumped as

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<v Speaker 2>heck about it, but first let's grunt about you. Thank

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<v Speaker 2>you to everyone who's out there in the world strutting

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<v Speaker 2>about in wars. From ologiesmerch dot Com, where you can

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<v Speaker 2>go if you want a twenty dollars science t shirt.

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<v Speaker 2>A tip of the cap to all of the patrons

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<v Speaker 2>who submit questions for the podcast and support the podcast

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<v Speaker 2>for as little as twenty five cents an episode. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>my Heart is that cheap. Twenty five cents an episode

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<v Speaker 2>gets you into that club. And thanks to everyone who

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<v Speaker 2>tosses some free love my way just by tweeting or

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<v Speaker 2>gramming about the podcast and getting the word out, and

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<v Speaker 2>for subscribing and rating on iTunes and Stitcher, which is

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<v Speaker 2>super important and helps so much in getting the show seen.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you guys ready for this? So this week ologies

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<v Speaker 2>number six on the iTunes Science charts, like up there

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<v Speaker 2>with like Invisibilia and Radio Lab and Hidden Brain, all

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<v Speaker 2>like respectable podcasts, ones that don't use the F word

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<v Speaker 2>about neuroscience or talk about duc dicks as much. So

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<v Speaker 2>thank you so much for the reviews. I creep them all.

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<v Speaker 2>I read every single one, and to prove it each

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<v Speaker 2>week I read one aloud. So this week I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to say thanks Brooke Bissone for saying Ali, thanks so

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<v Speaker 2>much for making a podcast that makes scientists seem like

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<v Speaker 2>rock stars. Your interviews are fun and interesting and go

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<v Speaker 2>into the science while still managing to remain a little goofy.

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<v Speaker 2>I think she's being generous with that. But okay, let's

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<v Speaker 2>get into this topic. So intenational phonology, what do those

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<v Speaker 2>sounds together even mean? So it has nothing to do

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<v Speaker 2>with international telecommunications. So phonology is a branch of linguistics

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<v Speaker 2>that deals with sounds. So what our emotional word grunts

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<v Speaker 2>sound like? And intenational means the pitches we use to

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<v Speaker 2>convey different things like ask a question or be sarcastic.

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<v Speaker 2>So this week we are taking something that you do

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<v Speaker 2>every day, which is talk with all the hidden cues

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<v Speaker 2>and meanings and signifiers, and we're breaking it down a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit. So how do things like gender identity and

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<v Speaker 2>racial background play a role in how we signal and

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<v Speaker 2>bond and communicate with other people? It turns out it's

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<v Speaker 2>fascinating and so complex. So this ologist has both a

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<v Speaker 2>bachelor's and a master's in linguistics and has studied the

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<v Speaker 2>nuances of speech in everyone from pop stars to professors

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<v Speaker 2>and people in both politics and prisons. Which I feel

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<v Speaker 2>like there's a Venn diagram. Those things are just getting

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<v Speaker 2>closer and closer together. She got a PhD from NYU

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<v Speaker 2>with a dissertation entitled Intonational Variation, Linguistic Style and the

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<v Speaker 2>Black Biracial Experience. She's now an assistant professor of linguistics

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<v Speaker 2>at Pomona College and we set a date for me

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<v Speaker 2>to come out to her office on campus. It's about

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<v Speaker 2>thirty five minutes away from where I live, and because

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<v Speaker 2>I am very smart and also responsible, I gave myself

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<v Speaker 2>an hour and a half to get there. I started

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<v Speaker 2>out driving, all was well, and then my GPS just

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<v Speaker 2>kept tacking on more minutes. It was horrifying. Suddenly, you're

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<v Speaker 2>going to be four minutes late. I was like shit.

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<v Speaker 2>I sent her a message. I was like I'm so sorry.

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<v Speaker 2>A few miles down the road, my GPS is like, nah,

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<v Speaker 2>you're gonna be fifteen minutes late. I was like what,

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<v Speaker 2>And then twenty minutes late. And I just kept sending

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<v Speaker 2>her emails from stop and go traffic, being like, dude,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't like maybe there's like a dinosaur in the

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<v Speaker 2>road or a tanker truck exploded. Anyway. I hadn't realized

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<v Speaker 2>that the Friday evening Los Angeles traffic on Memorial Day

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<v Speaker 2>weekend would start before noon. So I was in the

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<v Speaker 2>car for over two hours to go thirty miles, and

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<v Speaker 2>I was just sweating in so many places. So by

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<v Speaker 2>the time I arrived, I was one hour late. I

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<v Speaker 2>was the most mortified ever, and I just I was

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<v Speaker 2>wishing I had been fitted with a catheter for the drive.

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<v Speaker 2>So I started rolling tape in the car and just

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<v Speaker 2>ran into her office. I'm proud to report I went

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<v Speaker 2>the whole interview without having a potty accident. But this

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<v Speaker 2>ologist was as gracious as a human being could have been,

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<v Speaker 2>and in the forty five minutes we had to talk,

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<v Speaker 2>she gave me one of the most frank and enthralling

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<v Speaker 2>interviews I could ever hope for. I had about ten

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<v Speaker 2>hours worth of questions to ask her. But I've included

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<v Speaker 2>more info on her work at the end of this

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<v Speaker 2>because we had limited time, and it's also up on

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<v Speaker 2>my website, So feel free to tenderly stalk her to

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<v Speaker 2>continue learning about this field. Also, if there's anything language

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<v Speaker 2>wise I can improve on, feel free to reach out

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<v Speaker 2>to me. I really wanted to learn more about this

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<v Speaker 2>work because I knew nothing about it, and I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of open up the discussion and just get

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<v Speaker 2>people thinking about these experiences. Both their own and others.

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<v Speaker 2>So in this episode, we cover the origins of our

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<v Speaker 2>own voices through socialization, code switching, Obama's voice, Twitter grammar,

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<v Speaker 2>questions that linguistics hate getting, and how difficult it is

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<v Speaker 2>to change your identity to fit in. Also what not

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<v Speaker 2>to wear in Paris, and how I'm a shape shifting

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<v Speaker 2>lizard member of the Illuminati. So tell your brain glob

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<v Speaker 2>to please listen up to the significant and brilliant word

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<v Speaker 2>machinations of international phonologist doctor Nicole Holiday. Oh god, this

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<v Speaker 2>is the nightmare. All right, I've arrived at the college.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm an hour late. This is my nightmare. Oh god,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so every everything is a red zone.

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<v Speaker 3>All right.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm parking in some parking lot. It doesn't say I can't,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm doing it Friday afternoon and holiday weekends. I

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<v Speaker 2>have to pee so fucking bad. Two hours in the car.

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<v Speaker 2>I am over an hour late to this interview. This

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<v Speaker 2>doctor is like, hmm, it's waiting in her office for

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<v Speaker 2>me on a holiday weekends.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, heavy breathing.

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<v Speaker 2>S. Building is empty, Doctor Holiday. I'm already rolling. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>like ready to go.

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<v Speaker 3>Why how are you good? How are you? I'm so sorry?

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<v Speaker 3>That you had such a traffic.

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<v Speaker 2>O. My god, this is so embarrassing.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm just so.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, I started running it in the car.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, I'm going to roll in there. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>so excited to talk. I'm glad you made it.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm sorry the traffic.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it's me. I should have left yesterday. I should

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<v Speaker 2>have left in camp. We should have.

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<v Speaker 3>Thought about the fact that it was Friday.

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<v Speaker 2>We really didn't even think about that or the holiday weekend.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was like, oh, my gosh. So, first off,

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<v Speaker 2>so now you are a linguistics professor here now, right, Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>I am. Now you've been a linguistics professor here pretty recently, right.

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<v Speaker 5>This is I Actually I was a post doc for

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<v Speaker 5>one year here and then I just finished my first

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<v Speaker 5>year as faculty, so like a baby professor.

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<v Speaker 2>That's so exciting.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, I understand that you started studying Spanish in high school, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you tell me a little bit about when you

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<v Speaker 2>started becoming so interested in language.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>So I was always a kid that was like super

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<v Speaker 5>interested in maps and geography, and then I think when

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<v Speaker 5>I was in fifth grade, we had like three weeks.

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<v Speaker 3>Of French or something, and I was like this is

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<v Speaker 3>so cool.

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<v Speaker 5>But like you know, in the US, kids don't really

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<v Speaker 5>learn second languages. So it wasn't until you know, I

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<v Speaker 5>get to high school, basically eighth grade when I started

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<v Speaker 5>taking Spanish, and I had was a kid that was

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<v Speaker 5>good at school, but I wasn't like super good at

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<v Speaker 5>anything in particular until we started doing Spanish, and it

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<v Speaker 5>was like, oh, this is the easiest thing for me,

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<v Speaker 5>Like this must be the thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Side note, I'm learning Spanish on dual Lingo in case

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<v Speaker 2>anyone wants to be my friend on it. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>very good at it, which.

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<v Speaker 3>Means I cheated and made the computer say this.

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<v Speaker 5>So when I went to college, I was like, I'm

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<v Speaker 5>just gonna study a bunch of languages. I'm gonna study

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<v Speaker 5>Spanish and Arabic and whatever. So I got into it

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<v Speaker 5>and I was studying Arabic and it was harder than Spanish.

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<v Speaker 3>Obviously for an English speaker.

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<v Speaker 2>Quick question, how much harder is Arabic than English? I

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<v Speaker 2>was curious from everything I just read about it. It

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<v Speaker 2>is hella fucking hard. So though there are twenty eight

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<v Speaker 2>characters in the Arabic alphabet, the vowels are totally left

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<v Speaker 2>out or represented as these wee little dots and swishes

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<v Speaker 2>around the consonants. So in one study, neuropsychologists found that

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<v Speaker 2>the left hemisphere of the brain, which handles like linear

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<v Speaker 2>reasoning like grammar, tends to analyze these intricate little letter

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<v Speaker 2>freckles and swoops of Arabic writing. So learning other languages

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<v Speaker 2>with simpler alphabets, like English or Hebrew, the left and

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<v Speaker 2>the right brain both helped you decipher the meaning and

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<v Speaker 2>the emphasis. But in Arabic, even native speakers, the left

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<v Speaker 2>brain kind of rolls up its sleeves and is like,

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<v Speaker 2>oh man, this shit is complex, I gotta analyze this. Also,

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<v Speaker 2>arab has a bunch of pronunciations that are unfamiliar to

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<v Speaker 2>English speakers. It's got some next level grammar, not to

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<v Speaker 2>mention tons of regional dialects. So if you can read

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<v Speaker 2>or speak Arabic, please accept my robust, cosmic high fives.

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<v Speaker 2>That is life in the fast lane linguistically. So Nicole

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<v Speaker 2>was studying that, and then and then.

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<v Speaker 5>Somebody suggested my friend's dad suggested I should take Introduction

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<v Speaker 5>to linguistics, thought I would like it, and I took it,

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<v Speaker 5>and I got to day one and I was like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>this is the thing. Like, it was never the languages.

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<v Speaker 5>It was like the theory beneath.

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<v Speaker 3>The languages that I was interested in.

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<v Speaker 5>But I didn't really have a way to talk about that,

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<v Speaker 5>because who learns about linguistics in high school, right, Like

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<v Speaker 5>almost no one, zero people.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's never It's not something that's thought of, even

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<v Speaker 2>though it's something that we do all day every day.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>And the way that we teach this kind of anything allied,

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<v Speaker 5>right is like we teach grammar, which everyone hates because

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<v Speaker 5>we teach it so poorly and it's so prescriptive. There's

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<v Speaker 5>so many rules and so many limitations, and so people

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<v Speaker 5>are just like, oh, sentence structure. I want to run

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<v Speaker 5>away from that. So even when people do hear about linguistics,

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<v Speaker 5>they're like, oh, you're just diagramming sentences. It must be horrible.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm like, no, I don't do that at all. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>actually horrible at that.

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<v Speaker 2>Now tell me what about it did you love so much?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it because you love communication? Is it because you

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<v Speaker 2>love how thought is shaped by language?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>So I like the structure.

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<v Speaker 5>So some one of my students last semester describe linguistics

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<v Speaker 5>as like language plus math.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's a lot of there's a lot.

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<v Speaker 5>Of like procedure and theory and like ways that you

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<v Speaker 5>go We do problem sets right when we're teaching students,

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<v Speaker 5>so there's like a very orderly way about going about

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<v Speaker 5>analyzing this thing that doesn't necessarily seem really like rule

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<v Speaker 5>governed to us. Just as people who are walking around

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<v Speaker 5>speaking you don't think about like all of the things

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<v Speaker 5>that you have to know in your mind sort of

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<v Speaker 5>cognitively to be able to use your first or second language,

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<v Speaker 5>I know, but also socially. Right, So we teach it's

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<v Speaker 5>a subfield of linguistics called pragmatics that I teach about,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, when I teach introductory level classes, and I

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<v Speaker 5>will just say things that strike the students as absurd.

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<v Speaker 5>So I told that, Like one of the examples is,

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<v Speaker 5>like what happens if I walk in here and I'm like,

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<v Speaker 5>Drake is the greatest rapper of all time. It's like

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<v Speaker 5>the first thing I say in class today, like what?

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<v Speaker 3>And they laugh?

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<v Speaker 5>Right, And I said, why is it funny? They're like, oh,

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<v Speaker 5>it's like not appropriate. I'm like, but why do you know?

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<v Speaker 5>Like why, like you know all these social things that

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<v Speaker 5>make you know that this is not like a thing

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<v Speaker 5>that you can do right, right, but nobody ever taught

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<v Speaker 5>you that.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you ask them why? Do you ask them their

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<v Speaker 2>opinions on why was that not appropriate? Like what are

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<v Speaker 2>what are some of the responses that they.

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<v Speaker 5>Get, right, So they get well, it's not the theme

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<v Speaker 5>of the class, right, Okay, so they know what class

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<v Speaker 5>they're in. It's not what they would expect from me

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<v Speaker 5>as a professor to like come in and talk about

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<v Speaker 5>hip hop. I guess right, So all of these and

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<v Speaker 5>also like it's a formal setting, right, We're in a classroom,

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<v Speaker 5>so it's like not the type of thing that you

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<v Speaker 5>expect here from a professor in a classroom. So that's

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<v Speaker 5>why it's comical, right, because all of these things are unexpected.

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<v Speaker 3>They expect me to come in and say today, class,

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<v Speaker 3>we're can I do you know? Whatever they need?

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<v Speaker 5>And also it's weird because it's the first thing like

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<v Speaker 5>we don't make statements apropos of nothing usually, and when

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<v Speaker 5>we do, we apologize like, oh, sorry, I was just

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<v Speaker 5>thinking about right, we have to kind of couch.

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<v Speaker 2>It, right, And then it does a discussion follow of

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<v Speaker 2>who the greatest rapper of all time really is? And

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<v Speaker 2>do you ever settle on that.

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<v Speaker 5>No, No, they have a lot of opinions. People used

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<v Speaker 5>to say Nas, but he's like on the Blacklist now.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's really okay, it's not good. Okay, so perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>not Nas. Yeah, okay, I had to look this up.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, huh. So Nas was married to Kalise,

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<v Speaker 2>a hip hop artist and a chef, two talents which

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<v Speaker 2>blended beautifully in one of her hits that we've all

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<v Speaker 2>sang despite our personal lactose intolerances.

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<v Speaker 3>Shake brings all the voice they got.

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<v Speaker 2>So Nas and Caalise divorced in two thousand and nine,

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<v Speaker 2>but just a few months ago she divulged that they

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<v Speaker 2>had a terrible physically and mentally abusive relationship. So Na's

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<v Speaker 2>not good. So who is the greatest rapper? I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>I gotta know what is the consensus? So I did

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<v Speaker 2>some digging and I got lost down to very deep

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<v Speaker 2>tunnel of opinion, an abyss of thoughts, and a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people say Kendrick Lamar. And then I found a

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<v Speaker 2>list on MSN of the top twenty rappers of all times.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, I wonder what they say, just so

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<v Speaker 2>you know how much I love you all. It was

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<v Speaker 2>a click through article twenty slides to get to number

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<v Speaker 2>one with ads in between, but I still clicked all

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<v Speaker 2>the way through and it named NAS's number three, Biggie

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<v Speaker 2>Small's runner up and at the top. Tupac now, Rickim

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<v Speaker 2>and jay Z were also in the top five. But

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<v Speaker 2>according to MTV's Top MC's in the Game, Nicki Minaj

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<v Speaker 2>by the way, only female rapper to ever appear on it,

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<v Speaker 2>Kanye and Drake frequently hover in first and second place

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<v Speaker 2>on that list, although some people, especially Push a Tea

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<v Speaker 2>Right Now, may dispute Drake's ranking. Also one more thing,

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<v Speaker 2>if you love beautiful pastries and frosting calligraphy of hip

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<v Speaker 2>hop lyrics, I highly suggest following the Instagram account Drake

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<v Speaker 2>on a Cake by the Wonderful joy the Baker. I

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<v Speaker 2>love it so much. But any husles bestrapper, big debate

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<v Speaker 2>not something you would expect your professor to profess straight

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<v Speaker 2>out of the gate before laying down the syllabus. Is

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<v Speaker 2>the point here when you really started to go down

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<v Speaker 2>the line and get your PhD in this, By the way,

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<v Speaker 2>I congratulation, thank you, Like, how did you choose what

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<v Speaker 2>your dissertation subject was?

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<v Speaker 5>Like?

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<v Speaker 2>Essentially, steer your boat.

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<v Speaker 5>I think I have an unusual story because I remember

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<v Speaker 5>the moment when I figured out my dissertation topic, and

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<v Speaker 5>it was when I was in college. I wasn't even

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<v Speaker 5>I think I had just decided on my linguistics major,

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<v Speaker 5>and I was.

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<v Speaker 3>I grew up in Ohio.

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<v Speaker 5>I was undergrad at Ohio State, and I had been

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<v Speaker 5>in Peru studying abroad. I was initially kind of interested

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<v Speaker 5>in the language rights of indigenous people in India and

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<v Speaker 5>South America, and I do some research on that too,

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<v Speaker 5>like Peru and Bolivia.

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<v Speaker 3>So i'd come back.

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<v Speaker 5>But I started to have all these thoughts about like

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<v Speaker 5>language rights in the United States, right, like who gets

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<v Speaker 5>discriminated against right, and particularly like being black, thinking about

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<v Speaker 5>the ways in which that kind of contributes to racism.

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<v Speaker 5>So I came back and I wanted to This was

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<v Speaker 5>two thousand and eight, and I wanted to volunteer in

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<v Speaker 5>the Obama campaign. So I walked to the Obama field

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<v Speaker 5>office and they told me to like sit down, and

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<v Speaker 5>some guy was going to come talk to me. So

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<v Speaker 5>I'm watching this guy who reads to me is by Rachel,

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<v Speaker 5>which he was right like me too, and he's on

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<v Speaker 5>the phone presumably with some you know, wealthy donor, presumably

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<v Speaker 5>like a white guy. He's like, excuse me, sir, like

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<v Speaker 5>we really need you. Obama really could use your support,

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<v Speaker 5>and the Senator is counting on folks like you to

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<v Speaker 5>contribute rate this very formal kind of register. And I

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<v Speaker 5>guess the guy gave him money so he hung up.

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<v Speaker 5>Five seconds later, like a young black guy teenager comes

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<v Speaker 5>in and he's like, what up, dog Like, yeah, yeah, Obama,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, he could really use your support. We're looking for.

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<v Speaker 3>Volunteers to go knock out some doors.

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<v Speaker 5>And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. And

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<v Speaker 5>I said, somebody has to like know about this, like

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<v Speaker 5>there has to I need to read about it, like,

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<v Speaker 5>because it just was so clear to.

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<v Speaker 2>Me, right, what a moment. And also in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>the Obama campaign, I think a lot of people observe

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<v Speaker 2>that Obama is really dead with that as well, Right,

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<v Speaker 2>does that click for you as well?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 5>And I have maybe not exactly at that point, but

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<v Speaker 5>I have a few papers about Obama because Obama is

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<v Speaker 5>also one of my research interests.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm just casually in a hotel room perusing doctor

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<v Speaker 2>Nicole Holidays one hundred and eighty five page PhD dissertation

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<v Speaker 2>I found online. I was super tickled to see the

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<v Speaker 2>forty fourth president mentioned right in the opening paragraph. She

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<v Speaker 2>notes up top that Barack Obama is a masterful code

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<v Speaker 2>switcher between mainstream US English and African American language. Aar

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<v Speaker 2>So some of doctor Holliday's other papers who they're great

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<v Speaker 2>influence of supra sigmental features on perceived ethnicity of American politicians.

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<v Speaker 2>Super a segmental features, by the way, are things like loudness, pitch,

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<v Speaker 2>length of vowels, et cetera. So she also wrote a

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<v Speaker 2>paper examining Barack and Michelle Obama's rates of CSD and CSD.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course I look that up. No, I did not

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<v Speaker 2>know what it meant at first. It stands for coronal

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<v Speaker 2>stop deletion or leaving off the hard D or T

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<v Speaker 2>at the end of words like didn't or hard. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>if I were to attempt to give a rundown of

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<v Speaker 2>phonological features of African American language, which some scholars on

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<v Speaker 2>the subject have also called African American Vernacular English, this

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<v Speaker 2>episode would stretch like into next week. So Nicole's work

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<v Speaker 2>involves changing the perceptions and fostering appreciation for a dialect

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<v Speaker 2>of American English that has a super complex and very

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<v Speaker 2>specific set of grammatical rules as well as a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of social and socio linguistic functions. There are so many

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<v Speaker 2>nuances to it that the seminal reference book on the

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<v Speaker 2>matter is called the Oxford Handbook of African American Language,

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<v Speaker 2>was published in twenty fifteen. It weighs in at a

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<v Speaker 2>hefty nine hundred and forty four pages. So the study

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<v Speaker 2>of the dialect isn't just about coronal stop deletion or

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<v Speaker 2>dropping a G at the end of a word. She

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<v Speaker 2>does a lot of research on code switching. And this

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<v Speaker 2>is a term that originated almost seventy years ago from

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<v Speaker 2>a study of Norwegian villages, and it means to switch

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<v Speaker 2>into different conversational tones depending on who you're speaking to

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<v Speaker 2>or to whom you're speaking, and it applies to so

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<v Speaker 2>many different cultures and languages. I hadn't heard of the

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<v Speaker 2>term until recently when my bilingual Latina friend Dalen told

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<v Speaker 2>me about it, and she was like, yeah, dude, of

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<v Speaker 2>course this happens all the time. And while I'm in Detroit,

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<v Speaker 2>I met up with some ologies listeners and I told him.

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<v Speaker 2>I was working on this episode and one listener Paul

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<v Speaker 2>was raised in England but came to America during grade school,

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<v Speaker 2>and he says he switches back and forth between a

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<v Speaker 2>British accent when he talks to his parents versus his

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<v Speaker 2>American friends just boo bob boop. And another ologite, Ron

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<v Speaker 2>grew up in Detroit and said, of course he switches

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<v Speaker 2>tones if he's talking to his friends he grew up with,

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<v Speaker 2>or people in business settings. So it happens all the time,

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<v Speaker 2>but the pressure within ethnically diverse communities is particularly heavy.

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<v Speaker 2>So either you've never considered this before or you're like,

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<v Speaker 2>duh jir, Yeah, this is daily life for me.

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<v Speaker 5>I am, you know, sort of very interested in this

421
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:06.880
<v Speaker 5>idea of what it means to sound black, sort of

422
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.559
<v Speaker 5>from the perspective of something that you can perform as

423
00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:12.720
<v Speaker 5>part of your identity, but also when people make that judgment,

424
00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:14.759
<v Speaker 5>like what are they hearing? And so a lot of

425
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:16.599
<v Speaker 5>the work that I do, sort of the quantitative work

426
00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:19.359
<v Speaker 5>that I do, looks at what people are attuned to

427
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:22.200
<v Speaker 5>when they're making those kind of social judgments about race.

428
00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:24.359
<v Speaker 2>And what did you what conclusions did you come to?

429
00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:27.200
<v Speaker 2>If someone asks you in a nutshell, Explain your work,

430
00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:28.200
<v Speaker 2>Explain your findings.

431
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:28.960
<v Speaker 3>Where do you start?

432
00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:32.119
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so I study intonation. So it's not exactly anology.

433
00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:34.559
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, international phonology.

434
00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:39.759
<v Speaker 5>Total international phonology is anology. We'll use that one. And

435
00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:41.680
<v Speaker 5>so a lot of times when I talk to just

436
00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:44.359
<v Speaker 5>people that don't know as much about linguistics, when I

437
00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:46.599
<v Speaker 5>ask them like, oh, what do you think makes somebody

438
00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:49.119
<v Speaker 5>your ability to judge somebody black? If they if you

439
00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:51.319
<v Speaker 5>can't see them, like, why would you make that judgment?

440
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:54.119
<v Speaker 5>And they usually say they think about the grammar, and

441
00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:56.799
<v Speaker 5>you know, there's a stereotype like vill say that it's

442
00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.240
<v Speaker 5>bad grammar or like bad English or something. Even black

443
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.759
<v Speaker 5>people will say that, really yeah, there's the racism runs

444
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:06.960
<v Speaker 5>deep and it's really entwined with language in complex ways.

445
00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:08.759
<v Speaker 5>But so they'll say that, and I said, yeah, but

446
00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:12.519
<v Speaker 5>you know what about somebody like Obama? What about somebody

447
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:15.200
<v Speaker 5>like even L. Sharpton, right, like they're not they're people

448
00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.079
<v Speaker 5>that are known as using actually a very standard kind

449
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:23.119
<v Speaker 5>of grammar, but still like UNRECOGNI like unmistakably black. Right

450
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:25.119
<v Speaker 5>if you hear L. Sharpton's voice, you've never seen them

451
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:26.519
<v Speaker 5>in your life, you know, You're like, that is a

452
00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:29.440
<v Speaker 5>black eye, so it must be something else. But when

453
00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:31.440
<v Speaker 5>I started to look into the literature about this, we

454
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:32.480
<v Speaker 5>don't actually know.

455
00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:34.160
<v Speaker 3>Much about the voice.

456
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:36.279
<v Speaker 5>What it is about the voice and the tone and

457
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:38.559
<v Speaker 5>the way that the pitch of the voice goes up

458
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:41.000
<v Speaker 5>and down, this kind of movement that causes this kind

459
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:44.160
<v Speaker 5>of judgment. So that is primarily what my research focus

460
00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:44.480
<v Speaker 5>is on.

461
00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:47.680
<v Speaker 2>Really, So is it so there? I imagine there's two

462
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:51.559
<v Speaker 2>different ways of looking at it. It's the actual physiology

463
00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:55.680
<v Speaker 2>of why people's voices sound a certain way, the actual

464
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:59.640
<v Speaker 2>voice box, and then it's also how how much it's used, right,

465
00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:02.519
<v Speaker 2>So how do you separate that when you are studying?

466
00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:06.079
<v Speaker 5>So the social things are kind of more what we're

467
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:08.319
<v Speaker 5>interested in, right, So there's always going to be individual

468
00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:10.519
<v Speaker 5>level variation, and our minds are really good at that.

469
00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:13.519
<v Speaker 5>Like when we hear a child and an adult say

470
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:17.160
<v Speaker 5>the same thing, we can process the same information even

471
00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:20.440
<v Speaker 5>though they're vastly different sizes. Right, Their vocal tract is

472
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:23.440
<v Speaker 5>actually similar shape, but the scale is really different.

473
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:25.240
<v Speaker 3>So what I'm.

474
00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:27.960
<v Speaker 5>Interested in is the ways in which these patterns are socialized.

475
00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:30.400
<v Speaker 5>So one thing, for example, like if we look at

476
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:34.279
<v Speaker 5>pitch just the numbers don't matter. But like, the average

477
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:36.000
<v Speaker 5>man in the United States has a pitch that's like

478
00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:38.599
<v Speaker 5>around between one hundred and one hundred and fifty hertz,

479
00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.039
<v Speaker 5>and the average woman has one that's between like two

480
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.839
<v Speaker 5>hundred and two hundred and fifty herts. But only half

481
00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:46.200
<v Speaker 5>of that variation can be explained by physiology.

482
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:48.400
<v Speaker 3>Really, and what's really.

483
00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:50.039
<v Speaker 5>Shocking is like, if you look at kids like four

484
00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:51.640
<v Speaker 5>year olds, right, four year old boys and four year

485
00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:55.039
<v Speaker 5>old girls, their vocal tract is physiologically the same, right

486
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:55.799
<v Speaker 5>before puberty.

487
00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:57.240
<v Speaker 3>They have the same sort.

488
00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:00.920
<v Speaker 5>Of voice, and they're the same size too, Right, the

489
00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.440
<v Speaker 5>girls have already learned been socialized into raising their voice

490
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:06.880
<v Speaker 5>and the boys have already been socialized into lowering it.

491
00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:10.039
<v Speaker 5>Even though there's no physiological differences, you can tell the

492
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:12.480
<v Speaker 5>difference between a four year old boy and a four

493
00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:15.119
<v Speaker 5>year old girl because they've already been socialized into it.

494
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:19.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh. So intonations are picked up socially. Of course,

495
00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:23.079
<v Speaker 2>the very purpose of language is to communicate within a

496
00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:27.839
<v Speaker 2>social system, and evidently younger folks and women tend to

497
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:33.400
<v Speaker 2>be the drivers of linguistic trends. So like uptalk started

498
00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:37.720
<v Speaker 2>in California, but it's now spread geographically and to men,

499
00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:40.680
<v Speaker 2>although they don't like to admit it, And the purpose

500
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:43.279
<v Speaker 2>it may serve conversationally is to convey empathy, just to

501
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:45.839
<v Speaker 2>make sure you're being understood. So, as Nicole said in

502
00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:48.440
<v Speaker 2>a previous interview, I found just said, you can go

503
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:50.960
<v Speaker 2>anywhere in the world and ask who speaks the quote

504
00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:54.440
<v Speaker 2>bad version of the language, and invariably it's the people

505
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:58.440
<v Speaker 2>who are marginalized, who are rural poor, or belong to

506
00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:04.119
<v Speaker 2>religious minorities. And now maybe more marginalized groups use nuanced

507
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:07.519
<v Speaker 2>language to bond and communicate for social survival, and then

508
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.440
<v Speaker 2>later it spreads to less marginalized parts of the population

509
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:14.359
<v Speaker 2>of just theorizing. Now, if you're like me, you may

510
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.440
<v Speaker 2>be thinking, wait ooh, what is the big diff between

511
00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:20.920
<v Speaker 2>a dialect and an accent? Well, I looked it up,

512
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:26.559
<v Speaker 2>as I do, and a dialect has its own unique vocabulary,

513
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:30.240
<v Speaker 2>words and grammatical rules as well as pronunciations, but an

514
00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:35.000
<v Speaker 2>accent is just the variation in pronunciation. Now, if you're

515
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:37.240
<v Speaker 2>also like me, you just ate a huge bag of

516
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:41.640
<v Speaker 2>halapeno cheese potato chips for dinner and hotel room. No, okay,

517
00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:46.559
<v Speaker 2>that's fine too. Whatever, Now, is that a little bit

518
00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:49.559
<v Speaker 2>where creaky voice is coming from. I understand that, like

519
00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:54.039
<v Speaker 2>the modern like kind of Kardashian like creaky voice in

520
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:57.160
<v Speaker 2>vocal fry is a way of getting our voices lower.

521
00:25:57.319 --> 00:25:59.240
<v Speaker 3>You did a really good vocal fry.

522
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:02.839
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, happens when we have creaky voice or vocal fry

523
00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:04.400
<v Speaker 5>is our vocal folds.

524
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:04.839
<v Speaker 3>We don't call it.

525
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:07.680
<v Speaker 5>They're not actually chords or yeah, they're folds. So they

526
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:12.200
<v Speaker 5>kind of vibrate together, and they vibrate together periodically, sort

527
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:15.559
<v Speaker 5>of like a wave. Right, But when we do creaky voice,

528
00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:18.319
<v Speaker 5>they vibrate a periodically, and so what happens is the

529
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:21.039
<v Speaker 5>pitch actually drops out, so we get to the bottom

530
00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:24.559
<v Speaker 5>of our range when we do that. And lots of languages.

531
00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:27.640
<v Speaker 5>Some languages use creaky voice to do actual like grammatical

532
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:32.960
<v Speaker 5>encoding information, but in English it's stylistic variable. And so

533
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:36.920
<v Speaker 5>recently it has been sort of associated with young women,

534
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:40.559
<v Speaker 5>like modern young women. But people have had creaky voice

535
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:42.559
<v Speaker 5>on and off, and actually men do it. Most of

536
00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:45.119
<v Speaker 5>the studies show that men do it as much as women.

537
00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:47.920
<v Speaker 5>It's just stereotyped is being associated with women, and so

538
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:51.079
<v Speaker 5>when women are really creaky, they get this sort of

539
00:26:51.319 --> 00:26:53.960
<v Speaker 5>social association that it's a particular style.

540
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:55.599
<v Speaker 2>So we get kind of a bad rap for it.

541
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:57.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, true, and we shouldn't anyway.

542
00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:00.000
<v Speaker 5>It's just like a way of moving your vocal folds

543
00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:02.680
<v Speaker 5>like that doesn't mean that you're more or less intelligent,

544
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:03.920
<v Speaker 5>all right?

545
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:07.279
<v Speaker 2>Quick aside to address what might be driving the increased

546
00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:10.160
<v Speaker 2>prevalence for vocal fry the last few decades, So it

547
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:12.920
<v Speaker 2>may be a way for women to lower the register

548
00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:16.640
<v Speaker 2>of their voice, as lower voices are perceived to be

549
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:19.920
<v Speaker 2>more authoritative. So given that women weren't allowed to wear

550
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:23.359
<v Speaker 2>pants on the Senate floor into like the nineteen nineties,

551
00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:25.759
<v Speaker 2>we're just we're doing what we can. We're pulling out

552
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:27.519
<v Speaker 2>all the stops. It's like, what do we need to

553
00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:32.000
<v Speaker 2>do for you to treat people equally? Now? A study

554
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:35.160
<v Speaker 2>by Caitlin Lee at the University of Kentucky found that

555
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:40.039
<v Speaker 2>participants also rated male and female speakers totally differently. So

556
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:43.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm just going to casually repeat Nicole's statement quote, you

557
00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:46.599
<v Speaker 2>can go anywhere in the world and ask who speaks

558
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:50.480
<v Speaker 2>the bad version of the language, and invariably it's the

559
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:54.519
<v Speaker 2>people who are marginalized, who are rural, poor, or belong

560
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:59.200
<v Speaker 2>to religious minorities. I mean, until of course it spreads

561
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:02.200
<v Speaker 2>and then it's do you think that the way people

562
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:04.839
<v Speaker 2>have changed as it goes through trends like that?

563
00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:06.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for sure.

564
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:11.119
<v Speaker 5>So there's it's very complicated, but basically we language is

565
00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:14.359
<v Speaker 5>like social contagion, So we always talk like the people

566
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:15.079
<v Speaker 5>that we talk to.

567
00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:17.480
<v Speaker 3>You might have noticed this, like people will.

568
00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:19.240
<v Speaker 5>Say this to me, like, oh, I went to the South,

569
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:21.119
<v Speaker 5>and like, now I sound like the people in this

570
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:22.519
<v Speaker 5>when I'm in the South, I sound like the people

571
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:25.200
<v Speaker 5>in the South. Yes, yes, right, because we do. Actually,

572
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:27.440
<v Speaker 5>this is a thing called speech accommodation theory. We do

573
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:30.640
<v Speaker 5>actually accommodate to the people around us. We converge towards

574
00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:33.240
<v Speaker 5>them if we like them. If we don't like them,

575
00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:34.640
<v Speaker 5>we diverge away from them.

576
00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:35.519
<v Speaker 2>No way.

577
00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:37.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

578
00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

579
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:41.279
<v Speaker 5>So like it's contagious, right, So as you see communities

580
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:43.640
<v Speaker 5>in contact with each other that maybe weren't before, like,

581
00:28:43.720 --> 00:28:46.079
<v Speaker 5>they're going to start to converge and diverge based on

582
00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:48.640
<v Speaker 5>the way that people those communities interact with each other.

583
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:52.680
<v Speaker 5>So one example of this is thinking about like the

584
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:55.519
<v Speaker 5>California like the creaky voice thing that you're saying. People

585
00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:58.559
<v Speaker 5>will talk about like the Valley Girl thing as aspirational,

586
00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:00.279
<v Speaker 5>particularly in the eighties.

587
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:07.079
<v Speaker 2>Like oh my God, like totally ps. I just went

588
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:09.680
<v Speaker 2>into the wayback machine and I listened to portions of

589
00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:12.079
<v Speaker 2>this song, which is supposed to be comedic, but it's

590
00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:16.480
<v Speaker 2>incredibly viciously homophobic, and it made me very, very sad.

591
00:29:16.519 --> 00:29:19.119
<v Speaker 2>And it also made me reflect on how important social

592
00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:21.799
<v Speaker 2>progress and empathy and tolerance are and that it's a

593
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:24.720
<v Speaker 2>battle worth fighting to have a more loving society. Anyway,

594
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:25.400
<v Speaker 2>so you.

595
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:27.559
<v Speaker 5>Had these girls in the Midwest that were like trying

596
00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:30.000
<v Speaker 5>to approximate a California identity because they like it.

597
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:30.759
<v Speaker 3>So they started to.

598
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:35.319
<v Speaker 5>Sound like California because they were It was a style

599
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:37.359
<v Speaker 5>that was now available to them, right, because they could

600
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:39.559
<v Speaker 5>see it, they could hear it. People were traveling more,

601
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:41.960
<v Speaker 5>they were interacting more, and so they started to change

602
00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:42.359
<v Speaker 5>the style.

603
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:46.119
<v Speaker 2>I imagine that must be true too, for like transcontinental

604
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:49.519
<v Speaker 2>like the old movie boys, like that was an aspirational

605
00:29:50.119 --> 00:29:52.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of dialect as well. Right, yeah, it was.

606
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:54.960
<v Speaker 3>I mean it's really funny because no one ever really.

607
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:57.599
<v Speaker 5>Talked that way, right, it was nobody's like first dialect.

608
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:02.640
<v Speaker 5>But it is definitely like a st It's funny when

609
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:05.799
<v Speaker 5>they were talking about Kevin Spacey's character on House of Cards.

610
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:09.319
<v Speaker 5>He has this kind of like weird, aspirational Old South

611
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:13.319
<v Speaker 5>thing that nobody really sounds like, but it's an idea

612
00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:15.599
<v Speaker 5>of what somebody like that is supposed to sound like.

613
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.880
<v Speaker 2>And so when you're looking at this, because I know

614
00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:21.440
<v Speaker 2>that you've you've obviously studied a lot of people doing this,

615
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:24.440
<v Speaker 2>do you find that there might be kind of aspirational

616
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:26.799
<v Speaker 2>tones depending on who they're talking to. I started telling

617
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:28.480
<v Speaker 2>Nicole a story I had heard the day before from

618
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:32.000
<v Speaker 2>Michael Yo, a comedian who's biracial. He's Korean and African American,

619
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:34.680
<v Speaker 2>and he was about to interview a very famous rapper

620
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:37.720
<v Speaker 2>on the radio, and apparently the musician right before he

621
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:39.200
<v Speaker 2>was like, hey, nice to meet you, dada, and then

622
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:40.480
<v Speaker 2>as soon as he got on the air for a

623
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:43.480
<v Speaker 2>radio station, he had a completely different voice. Is that

624
00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:46.599
<v Speaker 2>aspirational as well? Depending on kind of who you want

625
00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:47.160
<v Speaker 2>to connect with?

626
00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:50.480
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so we all have you know, everybody has styles, right,

627
00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:52.720
<v Speaker 5>So you're not going to talk to your doctor and

628
00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:54.640
<v Speaker 5>your priest and your mom and your best friend the

629
00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:55.680
<v Speaker 5>same way, right, right?

630
00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:58.519
<v Speaker 2>Hey Mom, Hey Dad? Sorry I say that F word

631
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:00.880
<v Speaker 2>on this podcast Sometimes I know it's uncomfortable for you.

632
00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:04.480
<v Speaker 5>But for some people that have to negotiate moving in

633
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:07.759
<v Speaker 5>between this, like mainstream and not mainstream, or like these

634
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:11.880
<v Speaker 5>different racialized groups, communities, whatever, the difference can be sort

635
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:16.759
<v Speaker 5>of more contrastive. So I'm presently working on a project

636
00:31:16.759 --> 00:31:20.880
<v Speaker 5>with Laurence Squire's who she teaches English at Ohio State,

637
00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:24.119
<v Speaker 5>and we've been interviewing black students there about their experiences

638
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:28.119
<v Speaker 5>on campus with linguistic discrimination and linguistic insecurity there. So

639
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:30.640
<v Speaker 5>like maybe they don't feel comfortable speaking up in class, right,

640
00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.960
<v Speaker 5>this was where we started, and the students will sort

641
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:36.480
<v Speaker 5>of overwhelmingly talk about like the way that they talk

642
00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:38.359
<v Speaker 5>in class, which is this kind of way that they

643
00:31:38.359 --> 00:31:40.759
<v Speaker 5>deem acceptable to white people, and the way that they

644
00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:42.759
<v Speaker 5>actually talk, or the way they talk with their friends

645
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:44.759
<v Speaker 5>or they talk at home. So in this way, this

646
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.960
<v Speaker 5>kind of commanding of different styles is a social survival

647
00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:50.920
<v Speaker 5>strategy for people that have to move between worlds that

648
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:53.200
<v Speaker 5>they see as very different and sometimes incompatible.

649
00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:57.960
<v Speaker 2>It's interesting how many layers of adaptability you have to

650
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:00.519
<v Speaker 2>have in your speech every day. Was on the phone

651
00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:04.319
<v Speaker 2>with someone at a bank today and my friend was

652
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:06.119
<v Speaker 2>in the room, and I was so self conscious because

653
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.240
<v Speaker 2>the way I was speaking to this banker was like, yeah, fantastic,

654
00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:12.400
<v Speaker 2>I'll go ahead and compile the profit and law statement

655
00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:14.799
<v Speaker 2>for my es corp. And then I'll circle back and

656
00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:20.319
<v Speaker 2>ping you with the figures for the underwriting team. Oh so,

657
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:25.000
<v Speaker 2>speaking in the font of mortgage lender conference call and

658
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:28.279
<v Speaker 2>walking on linguistic eggshells just to be in this like

659
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:33.839
<v Speaker 2>constant high stakes shape shifting mode is so unpleasant. I

660
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:35.160
<v Speaker 2>got off the phone. I was like, I'm sorry, I'm

661
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:36.880
<v Speaker 2>a lizard person. That was weird, And I was like,

662
00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:39.680
<v Speaker 2>who am I? But if you find in like in

663
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:44.880
<v Speaker 2>biracial and black communities, how it must be difficult? I

664
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.440
<v Speaker 2>imagine because it's part of your identity. There must be

665
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:49.640
<v Speaker 2>a huge struggle between wanting to hang on to that

666
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:54.200
<v Speaker 2>identity in community but also having to adapt socially. How

667
00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:56.200
<v Speaker 2>do you propose navigating that?

668
00:32:56.440 --> 00:32:57.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's really hard.

669
00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:01.440
<v Speaker 5>So one of the things that I teach a lot

670
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:05.200
<v Speaker 5>is about African American English and linguistic discrimination. So you know,

671
00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:07.880
<v Speaker 5>Black children are much more likely to be labeled as

672
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:10.759
<v Speaker 5>learning disabled and reading and one of the reasons for

673
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:13.000
<v Speaker 5>that that is not that they're learning disabled, but the

674
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:14.400
<v Speaker 5>materials are not designed for them.

675
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:15.480
<v Speaker 3>They're designed for.

676
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:18.559
<v Speaker 5>Middle class white kids who speak standard some kind of

677
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:22.319
<v Speaker 5>approximation of a standard English. So it's not that black

678
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:25.799
<v Speaker 5>children can't read, it's that when they are evaluated by

679
00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:28.359
<v Speaker 5>white teachers in a system designed for middle class white kids,

680
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:30.000
<v Speaker 5>of course they're not going to perform as well.

681
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:30.880
<v Speaker 3>It's not made for them.

682
00:33:31.079 --> 00:33:35.319
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, So a lot of the movements from teachers sort

683
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:37.240
<v Speaker 5>of especially back in the day, where okay, well we

684
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:39.519
<v Speaker 5>need to transition them away from this, we need to

685
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:42.559
<v Speaker 5>teach them standard English. And it's still a controversy because

686
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.440
<v Speaker 5>everybody knows, like, if you want to get more economic success,

687
00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:49.000
<v Speaker 5>like you do need to command standard English. But you're

688
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:51.480
<v Speaker 5>asking a lot of those kids, right, So the white

689
00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:52.920
<v Speaker 5>kids get to speak the same way at home and

690
00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:54.640
<v Speaker 5>at school, and now all the black kids have to

691
00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:56.440
<v Speaker 5>command two varieties.

692
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:57.400
<v Speaker 3>One for home and one for school.

693
00:33:57.559 --> 00:33:59.079
<v Speaker 5>And by the way, the one that they speak at

694
00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:02.519
<v Speaker 5>home is constantly devalued every other place in their life.

695
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:02.720
<v Speaker 5>You know.

696
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:03.720
<v Speaker 3>So I have students ask me this.

697
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:06.920
<v Speaker 5>Sometimes they're like, well, if African American English is so stigmatized,

698
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:09.440
<v Speaker 5>why does the community hold on to it, Like, why

699
00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:11.920
<v Speaker 5>hasn't the language just died and I'm like, because it

700
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:16.559
<v Speaker 5>means something, right, because it establishes solidarity, because it establishes

701
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:21.119
<v Speaker 5>in group, because it tells a historical narrative of the

702
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.400
<v Speaker 5>history of black people in the United States. Like, it's

703
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:25.639
<v Speaker 5>not something that people really want to get rid of,

704
00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:27.599
<v Speaker 5>as much as they know that it's stigmatized.

705
00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:30.719
<v Speaker 2>Do you find historically that it has roots or it

706
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:35.880
<v Speaker 2>has connections from a tonal level closer to Southern American English?

707
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:38.480
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, So African American English started in the South. So

708
00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:41.119
<v Speaker 5>there's actually a lot of similarities between Southern white and

709
00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:42.239
<v Speaker 5>Southern black varieties.

710
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:46.960
<v Speaker 3>It is harder for listeners. People have done studies on this.

711
00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:50.000
<v Speaker 5>It's harder for listeners to tell the difference between rural

712
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:51.679
<v Speaker 5>black people and rural white people.

713
00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:54.440
<v Speaker 3>In the South. Really yeah, so, and it's.

714
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:56.360
<v Speaker 5>Because they're kind of more similar, but also because people

715
00:34:56.400 --> 00:34:59.320
<v Speaker 5>have these stereotyped expectations going in, like the if you

716
00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:01.960
<v Speaker 5>sound roal, it's white, yeah, right, even though there's lots

717
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:03.000
<v Speaker 5>of real black people.

718
00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:06.119
<v Speaker 2>Rightt you picture a farmer and overalls who's like an

719
00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:07.880
<v Speaker 2>old white guy with a straw hat or something.

720
00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:10.320
<v Speaker 5>Yes, exactly, like the ideas that people have going in

721
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:12.840
<v Speaker 5>and so yeah, like all of the black people in

722
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:15.119
<v Speaker 5>the United States were originally brought to this out because

723
00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:16.039
<v Speaker 5>we were enslaved, right.

724
00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:19.760
<v Speaker 2>So side note, if you're like I could become better

725
00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:22.800
<v Speaker 2>educated on the history of American slavery, which I'll wager

726
00:35:23.239 --> 00:35:27.199
<v Speaker 2>many Americans fit this category. There are so many good

727
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:31.280
<v Speaker 2>books and resources. There's one HBO documentary, Readings from the

728
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:35.920
<v Speaker 2>Slave Narratives, which features transcripts of first person accounts and

729
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:38.760
<v Speaker 2>they're read by actors like Samuel Jackson and Angela Bassett

730
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:41.679
<v Speaker 2>and Don Cheedle and Oprah Winfrey. It's on YouTube, just

731
00:35:41.719 --> 00:35:43.559
<v Speaker 2>there for you, waiting to be watched.

732
00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:46.400
<v Speaker 5>We only really got out of the South in big

733
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:49.360
<v Speaker 5>numbers in the last hundred years, right, with great migration,

734
00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:53.239
<v Speaker 5>and even then only got out of sort of very

735
00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:57.039
<v Speaker 5>dramatic segregated ethnic enclaves even more recently than that. And

736
00:35:57.039 --> 00:35:58.760
<v Speaker 5>you could argue that we're not even out of them,

737
00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:01.519
<v Speaker 5>right because like, look at whatghborhoods look like, not diverse,

738
00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:05.599
<v Speaker 5>and so for that reason, it actually has the effect

739
00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:09.000
<v Speaker 5>of keeping the language more insulated, right, because you talk

740
00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:11.480
<v Speaker 5>like the people you talk to. Well, if you live

741
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:13.960
<v Speaker 5>in a segregated community, you're gonna sound like the people

742
00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:15.360
<v Speaker 5>in your community.

743
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:16.159
<v Speaker 3>Right right exactly.

744
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:18.760
<v Speaker 5>So it's it's kind of an interesting like you can

745
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:22.360
<v Speaker 5>look at the language evolution as like the rings of a.

746
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:26.559
<v Speaker 2>Tree see the Dendrology episode on trees that.

747
00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:28.000
<v Speaker 5>Tell the like you cut the tree open and you

748
00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:30.280
<v Speaker 5>can see like every layer of the history. Like you

749
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:31.679
<v Speaker 5>can see that in the language too.

750
00:36:32.039 --> 00:36:32.480
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

751
00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:36.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm so curious what you think of how, especially with

752
00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:42.360
<v Speaker 2>social media, how social media has changed, uh maybe spread

753
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:46.719
<v Speaker 2>or appropriated African American English, because I feel like with

754
00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:50.440
<v Speaker 2>There's I hear that there's Black Twitter is a different thing.

755
00:36:50.920 --> 00:36:53.079
<v Speaker 2>If you have not heard of black Twitter, by the way,

756
00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:56.119
<v Speaker 2>it has its own Wikipedia page, and to paraphrase that,

757
00:36:56.519 --> 00:36:59.760
<v Speaker 2>it's a cultural identity focused on issues and experience of

758
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:02.800
<v Speaker 2>intro to the African American community. So issues of social

759
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:06.880
<v Speaker 2>justice are brought to light and amplified with these powerful

760
00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:11.280
<v Speaker 2>hashtags like hashtag if they've gunned me down, black Lives Matter,

761
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:15.440
<v Speaker 2>Oscar's so white you may remember. And the community also

762
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:18.719
<v Speaker 2>generates some really great jokes and memes. And I feel

763
00:37:18.760 --> 00:37:22.599
<v Speaker 2>like I see white people maybe try to borrow this

764
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:26.519
<v Speaker 2>style and it's and I feel like it's it's almost

765
00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:32.760
<v Speaker 2>appropriated by comedians or for comedic casual effect and how

766
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:33.679
<v Speaker 2>do you feel about that?

767
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:39.079
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's really interesting. So there is this thing that's

768
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:43.360
<v Speaker 5>like online imagined Black English. So there is a way

769
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:45.880
<v Speaker 5>that black people, like on Black Twitter for example, communicate

770
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:46.719
<v Speaker 5>their norms of.

771
00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:48.639
<v Speaker 3>The community, like just with any community.

772
00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:51.719
<v Speaker 5>But also there is a way in which like that

773
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:53.679
<v Speaker 5>is appropriated by the white gaze.

774
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:56.880
<v Speaker 3>So like what people think, people think is going on.

775
00:37:57.239 --> 00:37:59.960
<v Speaker 5>And it's really funny because whenever someone makes the arguing

776
00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:04.400
<v Speaker 5>like go, African American English is just poor grammar, I

777
00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:06.599
<v Speaker 5>try to explain to them that they don't understand the grammar.

778
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:08.360
<v Speaker 5>Those people if you ask them like okay, well what

779
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:10.039
<v Speaker 5>does it sound like, like make a sentence for me,

780
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:11.320
<v Speaker 5>they will always be wrong.

781
00:38:11.480 --> 00:38:13.760
<v Speaker 3>Because they don't understand the ramadical rule.

782
00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:16.880
<v Speaker 5>And so like you know, people that are on black Twitter,

783
00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:19.039
<v Speaker 5>like in the community or whatever can tell when when

784
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:22.000
<v Speaker 5>it's a parody, because people will break rules that they

785
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:22.880
<v Speaker 5>don't know about.

786
00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:24.119
<v Speaker 2>Oh tell me everything.

787
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:27.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So like it's even hard for me to do.

788
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:30.679
<v Speaker 5>But there's there's a thing in African American English it's

789
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:34.320
<v Speaker 5>optional called zero copula. So if you think about like

790
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:38.199
<v Speaker 5>Kanye whatever like that that ishkra right, you don't need

791
00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:38.559
<v Speaker 5>an is.

792
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:42.559
<v Speaker 3>There, and that's fine, but you can't just do that

793
00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:43.559
<v Speaker 3>with every subject.

794
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:45.519
<v Speaker 5>Like you can do it with a third singular like that,

795
00:38:46.039 --> 00:38:48.119
<v Speaker 5>but you can't really do it with a first person.

796
00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:51.639
<v Speaker 5>So you can't say like ikray. When you get white

797
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:54.519
<v Speaker 5>people like mocking this, they'll say things like ikra, and

798
00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:56.559
<v Speaker 5>you're like, no, no one, no speaker of African American

799
00:38:56.559 --> 00:38:57.639
<v Speaker 5>English would ever say that.

800
00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:01.719
<v Speaker 2>I was curious about people imitating African American language grammar,

801
00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:06.119
<v Speaker 2>and sure enough I found a tweet posted seven hours

802
00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:11.119
<v Speaker 2>ago about someone homesteading chickens with the words I cray. Now.

803
00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:15.679
<v Speaker 2>The user, according to her bio, is a blonde, holistic

804
00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:19.599
<v Speaker 2>doula from Michigan who gardens. So yeah, Nicole kind of

805
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:22.559
<v Speaker 2>nailed it. I'll see it appropriated and I'll cringe a bit.

806
00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:25.079
<v Speaker 2>I guess, what are the differences between written and spoken

807
00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:26.519
<v Speaker 2>African American English?

808
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:29.960
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's hard, right, So, actually, white people have been

809
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:32.880
<v Speaker 5>appropriating African American English since forever, right, So, like the

810
00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:35.840
<v Speaker 5>word cool comes from African American English, like over one

811
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:36.840
<v Speaker 5>hundred years ago, right.

812
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:38.639
<v Speaker 2>So I started reading up on this topic and I

813
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:42.920
<v Speaker 2>came across an Oxford Dictionaries blog titled quote when is

814
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:48.119
<v Speaker 2>lexical innovation cultural appropriation? It was a fascinating read and

815
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:51.079
<v Speaker 2>it was addressing the use of words like shade and

816
00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:53.960
<v Speaker 2>yes and woke. And I scrolled down to see, like

817
00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:56.519
<v Speaker 2>who wrote this amazing piece, and the guest blogger was

818
00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:02.480
<v Speaker 2>doctor Nicole Holiday. Of course she is the coolest.

819
00:40:02.679 --> 00:40:04.400
<v Speaker 3>I mean, we're cooler, so they take things her mess

820
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:04.920
<v Speaker 3>is fine.

821
00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:08.679
<v Speaker 5>I meaned in a certain way, right, but I mean

822
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:10.639
<v Speaker 5>it's also a lot of pressure to always be cool

823
00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:15.119
<v Speaker 5>by so you know, this is a well established, like

824
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:19.639
<v Speaker 5>long term trend. It's interesting with the Internet because you

825
00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:22.440
<v Speaker 5>can't see people or hear them in the same way,

826
00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:25.440
<v Speaker 5>so you can't you don't actually know if the speaker

827
00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:28.639
<v Speaker 5>is black. Sometimes, especially on Twitter, right, you read a

828
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:29.880
<v Speaker 5>tweet and you're like, who.

829
00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:30.519
<v Speaker 3>Is that from?

830
00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:32.880
<v Speaker 5>And you have to do like a deep investigation into

831
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:35.000
<v Speaker 5>like are they black? I don't know, because is it

832
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:36.480
<v Speaker 5>appropriate for them to like I have.

833
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:37.320
<v Speaker 3>This problem on Twitter?

834
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:37.519
<v Speaker 5>Right?

835
00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:38.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

836
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:40.519
<v Speaker 5>So that's one way in which social media is like

837
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:43.079
<v Speaker 5>really throwing people for a loop because you can't you

838
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:44.880
<v Speaker 5>can't contextualize.

839
00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:46.159
<v Speaker 3>People online the way that you can in real life.

840
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:48.400
<v Speaker 5>Or at least make educated guesses about them the way

841
00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:51.679
<v Speaker 5>that you can when you see them in person. But

842
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:55.480
<v Speaker 5>I also think, like, yeah, there is some kind of

843
00:40:55.719 --> 00:40:59.840
<v Speaker 5>cool cachet, like teenagers are cool, right, But teenagers are

844
00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:03.119
<v Speaker 5>all in a certain way, like more free to violate

845
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:06.719
<v Speaker 5>like mainstream language norms because we expect it from them,

846
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:08.760
<v Speaker 5>because they don't have to use their language as a

847
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:11.440
<v Speaker 5>commodity to make money in the same way, so they

848
00:41:11.480 --> 00:41:14.440
<v Speaker 5>have to use in school for that kind of economic advancement,

849
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:16.400
<v Speaker 5>but they're a little bit more free to actually sound

850
00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:20.039
<v Speaker 5>how they sound. Adults, right, who are once in a

851
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:22.800
<v Speaker 5>working world, particularly black folks who have to work in

852
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:25.679
<v Speaker 5>majority white communities all day, right and then raise kids

853
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:30.480
<v Speaker 5>who they want to have like a kind of standard style,

854
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:34.039
<v Speaker 5>are always under this pressure to sound respectable.

855
00:41:34.760 --> 00:41:37.840
<v Speaker 3>But teenagers don't have that. And all of this stuff.

856
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:40.320
<v Speaker 5>On the internet is jaw is driven by young people, right,

857
00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:42.920
<v Speaker 5>So there is this kind of freshness, this coolness that

858
00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:46.000
<v Speaker 5>gets adapted. But I do think that, you know, just

859
00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:48.199
<v Speaker 5>like with every other kind of appropriation, people in the

860
00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:53.000
<v Speaker 5>community get frustrated, particularly with people using things wrong. So

861
00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:55.320
<v Speaker 5>I was talking to a reporter from NPR a couple

862
00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:57.159
<v Speaker 5>weeks ago. I don't know she ever ended up writing

863
00:41:57.159 --> 00:42:00.639
<v Speaker 5>this but she was talking about thirst trap okay, and

864
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:03.320
<v Speaker 5>like the meaning of thirst chop okay. So originally what

865
00:42:03.400 --> 00:42:05.480
<v Speaker 5>it meant is like a picture that you would put

866
00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:08.280
<v Speaker 5>up to like kind of get comments like that you

867
00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:10.920
<v Speaker 5>were sexy or seductive or whatever. Right, So that's it's

868
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:12.719
<v Speaker 5>a particular type of photo that you put up like

869
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:13.280
<v Speaker 5>for that reason.

870
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:13.519
<v Speaker 1>Right.

871
00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:16.199
<v Speaker 2>Also just see Instagram in general.

872
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:19.320
<v Speaker 5>You could have a whole Instagram account that's a thirst job,

873
00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:22.159
<v Speaker 5>I guess. But what she was saying is like somebody

874
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.239
<v Speaker 5>had written a thing about James Comy in the interview

875
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:27.519
<v Speaker 5>that he was giving and was like, James Comy is

876
00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:29.360
<v Speaker 5>a thirst chap right now, because he was like seeking

877
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:33.199
<v Speaker 5>attention for in these interviews. Ooh, it's really transformed meaning.

878
00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:35.400
<v Speaker 5>And as a linguist, it's funny because I'm like, well,

879
00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:37.840
<v Speaker 5>words are allowed to change meaning, like especially online they

880
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:38.920
<v Speaker 5>change meeting really quickly.

881
00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:39.320
<v Speaker 2>Right.

882
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:42.559
<v Speaker 5>But also like that very clearly came like from African

883
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:45.760
<v Speaker 5>American English, like from you know, black Twitter, black communities online,

884
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:47.320
<v Speaker 5>and now you've just ruined.

885
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:50.599
<v Speaker 2>It, right, I think is do you think urban dictionary

886
00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:54.239
<v Speaker 2>ruins all of the good, like all of the good

887
00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:58.639
<v Speaker 2>kind of like insular terminology, I.

888
00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:00.800
<v Speaker 5>Mean by the time it gets to urban dictionary, people

889
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:03.559
<v Speaker 5>aren't using it though, Like that's the thing. So we're

890
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:06.199
<v Speaker 5>thinking about this as sort of as adults, like if

891
00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:07.880
<v Speaker 5>you have to look it up in urban dictionary, like

892
00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:08.800
<v Speaker 5>it's already over.

893
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:11.599
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah right yeah. If you're ever on urban dictionary,

894
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:14.480
<v Speaker 2>which I have been, it's like you, there's nothing more

895
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:17.599
<v Speaker 2>embarrassing being like than taking your your for me, like

896
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:21.280
<v Speaker 2>my old white ass to urban dictionary, be like what

897
00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:24.280
<v Speaker 2>does this mean? Bye the bye? I looked up Urban

898
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:27.760
<v Speaker 2>Dictionaries history and it was created by some white guys

899
00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:31.559
<v Speaker 2>and they don't moderate super racist and sexist stuff on there,

900
00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:34.599
<v Speaker 2>so that's awful and fuck them very much. I feel

901
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:38.320
<v Speaker 2>like when you get older, you look to cues from

902
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:41.519
<v Speaker 2>the younger people to be like what is everyone talking about?

903
00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:43.880
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, And it's like it's hard for me because like,

904
00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:46.480
<v Speaker 5>first of all, I'm a linguistics professor, but I'm also

905
00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:48.920
<v Speaker 5>pretty young and black, so I'm like I'm cool, like

906
00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:51.639
<v Speaker 5>I should know, right, and the students here say stuff

907
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:52.840
<v Speaker 5>to me that I'm like, oh my god, I have

908
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:54.800
<v Speaker 5>no idea, like like I have to look it up

909
00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:58.039
<v Speaker 5>in Urban Dictionary and like, yeah, thirty years old in

910
00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:00.760
<v Speaker 5>the world of slag is ancient. Yeah, like I haven't

911
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:02.840
<v Speaker 5>been qualified to speak on it in like seven or

912
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:04.360
<v Speaker 5>eight years probably.

913
00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:07.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god. And how has it changed since you

914
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:12.000
<v Speaker 2>started studying linguistics, because you at thirty, which is super

915
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:14.039
<v Speaker 2>young to have a PhD and be a professor, but

916
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.639
<v Speaker 2>you've been studying it for a number of years. Have

917
00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:20.719
<v Speaker 2>you seen terminology change even in how we talk about it?

918
00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:23.360
<v Speaker 2>I feel like ebonics was a word people used for

919
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:25.239
<v Speaker 2>a while, and I feel like that is not an

920
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:26.760
<v Speaker 2>okay word these days.

921
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:28.920
<v Speaker 3>People will still use it, but it does seem like

922
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:29.920
<v Speaker 3>antiquated to me.

923
00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:34.159
<v Speaker 2>How is the conversation changing and how shouldn't we talk

924
00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:36.840
<v Speaker 2>about it? Or how or what or what things are

925
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:38.119
<v Speaker 2>already ancient?

926
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:41.199
<v Speaker 5>And yeah're sing Ebonics actually was a word invented in

927
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:42.639
<v Speaker 5>like sixties seventies, and.

928
00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:43.719
<v Speaker 3>It's actually a cool word.

929
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:47.679
<v Speaker 5>It's ebony plus phonics, but linguists don't use it. We

930
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:50.079
<v Speaker 5>stopped using it like in the nineties because it had

931
00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:54.039
<v Speaker 5>such a bad connotation. So now we say all African

932
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:56.800
<v Speaker 5>American English, right, which is not as much fun to

933
00:44:56.800 --> 00:44:58.519
<v Speaker 5>say as a bonyx. It does give it sort of

934
00:44:58.519 --> 00:45:02.000
<v Speaker 5>a more like ray. We have a scientific I think

935
00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:05.519
<v Speaker 5>this idea of code switching is much more wide. People

936
00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:07.559
<v Speaker 5>know about it more than they did even you know

937
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:10.960
<v Speaker 5>when I started studying like ten years ago, maybe when

938
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:13.840
<v Speaker 5>I was in college, when I started studying linguistics, people

939
00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:15.880
<v Speaker 5>that I talk to out in the world that are

940
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:18.559
<v Speaker 5>not linguists will talk about code switching in a way

941
00:45:18.599 --> 00:45:21.000
<v Speaker 5>that's like very informed, And I don't think that people

942
00:45:21.079 --> 00:45:23.960
<v Speaker 5>had to kind of meta awareness of it before. So

943
00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:26.760
<v Speaker 5>that is good, right, people having this awareness that they

944
00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:29.880
<v Speaker 5>command different styles and that they have to do the

945
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:32.440
<v Speaker 5>work of it right, and also just being able to

946
00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:34.320
<v Speaker 5>talk about kind of what I was explaining to you,

947
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:36.119
<v Speaker 5>like we're asking so much of these kids to command

948
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:36.760
<v Speaker 5>two styles.

949
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:38.559
<v Speaker 3>We ask that of some kids but not others.

950
00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:42.400
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, right, I think definitely in the realm of education,

951
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.159
<v Speaker 5>teacher training, I've had met so many teachers that now

952
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:48.519
<v Speaker 5>have had some linguistic training, like in their master's degree

953
00:45:48.599 --> 00:45:51.920
<v Speaker 5>or something like that, which obviously makes it more equitable

954
00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:53.800
<v Speaker 5>for their black students in the classroom, and I mean

955
00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:57.480
<v Speaker 5>other students too. But that's definitely a positive thing. The

956
00:45:57.599 --> 00:45:59.840
<v Speaker 5>Internet is really interesting because you do get all of

957
00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:03.079
<v Speaker 5>this like moral panic about like the kids are ruining English,

958
00:46:03.320 --> 00:46:06.679
<v Speaker 5>but they were saying that in the sixteen hundreds, people

959
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:09.079
<v Speaker 5>have been saying the kids are ruining English since the

960
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:14.000
<v Speaker 5>you know, invention of English. So no, like there's no

961
00:46:14.599 --> 00:46:17.280
<v Speaker 5>you know for linguists, Like there is no ruining. Like

962
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:20.559
<v Speaker 5>language is alive and it moves and changes. It's like

963
00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:24.000
<v Speaker 5>saying like you're ruining the galaxy, Like you're not. Like,

964
00:46:24.039 --> 00:46:26.880
<v Speaker 5>it's just a thing that exists and we describe it right,

965
00:46:27.159 --> 00:46:28.960
<v Speaker 5>and it's going to change, and that's a natural part

966
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:31.239
<v Speaker 5>of it. And it changes in response to social stimula.

967
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:34.280
<v Speaker 5>I know, like when it changes because of oppression, Like

968
00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:35.960
<v Speaker 5>we have a problem with that, but it's not because

969
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:39.079
<v Speaker 5>of the language change, it's because of the oppression. So

970
00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:41.840
<v Speaker 5>my sort of hope going forward is that people will

971
00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:44.440
<v Speaker 5>learn to be like more linguistically tolerant in the way

972
00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:48.440
<v Speaker 5>that they are allegedly learning to be more like tolerant

973
00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:50.480
<v Speaker 5>of variation and race and gender.

974
00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:53.400
<v Speaker 3>But those things are connected, right.

975
00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:55.079
<v Speaker 2>How does it? How should curriculum change?

976
00:46:55.239 --> 00:46:57.599
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, well it's hard at this sort of you know,

977
00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:00.480
<v Speaker 5>fifth grade level. When we're talking about teaching kids to read.

978
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:02.440
<v Speaker 3>I'm not qualified on that exactly.

979
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:05.840
<v Speaker 5>But I think when we teach grammar quote unquote as

980
00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:08.599
<v Speaker 5>such like in you know, middle school or whenever, fourth grade.

981
00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:11.480
<v Speaker 5>Whenever people have that they should learn it as linguistics,

982
00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:13.920
<v Speaker 5>like kids in other countries, like the when I studied

983
00:47:13.960 --> 00:47:16.519
<v Speaker 5>abroad in Peru, like the Peruvian kids that I was

984
00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:19.199
<v Speaker 5>studying with had learned some basic linguistic stuff when they

985
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:22.719
<v Speaker 5>were in elementary school. So one of the very first

986
00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:24.559
<v Speaker 5>things that my students learn in day one is like,

987
00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:29.119
<v Speaker 5>language has variation, Variation is conditioned by social factors. It

988
00:47:29.239 --> 00:47:31.559
<v Speaker 5>is not a problem. Like variation is not a problem.

989
00:47:31.639 --> 00:47:32.679
<v Speaker 5>Variation is a feature.

990
00:47:33.079 --> 00:47:36.440
<v Speaker 2>Just to emphasize that again, variation is not a problem.

991
00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:40.199
<v Speaker 2>Variation is a feature, and language, of course is elastic.

992
00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:42.920
<v Speaker 5>But we teach kids in school right now like this

993
00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:45.800
<v Speaker 5>is proper English, everything else is bad. And by the way,

994
00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:48.920
<v Speaker 5>not only is everything else bad, it's a sign of

995
00:47:48.920 --> 00:47:52.280
<v Speaker 5>like a moral failing if somebody uses aint like Heaven forbid,

996
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:55.599
<v Speaker 5>right right, But then we're so hypocritical because then we

997
00:47:55.639 --> 00:47:59.280
<v Speaker 5>go on Twitter and we say ain't for stylistic reasons

998
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:02.039
<v Speaker 5>and whatever. So I think we could be less dogmatic.

999
00:48:02.119 --> 00:48:04.159
<v Speaker 5>But I also think we could teach kids the science

1000
00:48:04.199 --> 00:48:06.840
<v Speaker 5>of how language works, as opposed to just a set

1001
00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:10.719
<v Speaker 5>of rules that scare them into conforming linguistically.

1002
00:48:11.079 --> 00:48:12.840
<v Speaker 2>And if you had to break down the difference between

1003
00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:16.840
<v Speaker 2>grammar and linguistics in a nutshell for someone who is

1004
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:18.920
<v Speaker 2>not not schooled in it, what is the difference.

1005
00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:23.039
<v Speaker 5>So we talk about linguistics as descriptive rather than prescriptive.

1006
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:25.639
<v Speaker 5>So sometimes like I'll go to a party or something

1007
00:48:25.719 --> 00:48:27.400
<v Speaker 5>and I'll tell people that I'm a linguist and they're like,

1008
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:29.440
<v Speaker 5>oh my god, I have to watch my grammar around you.

1009
00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:32.039
<v Speaker 5>I'm like, actually, I am the person that you least

1010
00:48:32.119 --> 00:48:33.840
<v Speaker 5>need to watch your grammar around.

1011
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:36.000
<v Speaker 3>Because I'm not here to judge, Like I understand rach.

1012
00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:40.920
<v Speaker 5>I aim you know, I've been socialized here just like

1013
00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:43.599
<v Speaker 5>everybody else. But I aim to be like more understanding

1014
00:48:43.719 --> 00:48:46.760
<v Speaker 5>of the variation that I encounter, rather than jumping to

1015
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.440
<v Speaker 5>the conclusion like oh, somebody said, ain't like they must

1016
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:49.760
<v Speaker 5>not be.

1017
00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:50.559
<v Speaker 3>Educated, right.

1018
00:48:50.599 --> 00:48:52.840
<v Speaker 5>That's the prescriptive thing, and that's the thing that we

1019
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:55.599
<v Speaker 5>teach people, like, you know, you must follow this set

1020
00:48:55.599 --> 00:48:58.039
<v Speaker 5>of rules. Don't end a sentence with a preposition, which

1021
00:48:58.079 --> 00:48:59.840
<v Speaker 5>is like everyone does anyway, like one does.

1022
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:01.599
<v Speaker 2>We all do, and it's.

1023
00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:03.760
<v Speaker 3>Weird when you don't it. Sometimes, I know that is

1024
00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:05.840
<v Speaker 3>a thing up with which I will not put like.

1025
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:10.199
<v Speaker 2>No, not and we're gonna look back and be like

1026
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:13.480
<v Speaker 2>people spoke like that, like no one. I think we

1027
00:49:13.519 --> 00:49:17.079
<v Speaker 2>look back on on on ancient texts or and we

1028
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:19.239
<v Speaker 2>look at it we're like this is so awkward. And

1029
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:21.320
<v Speaker 2>so I mean, yeah, a language is elastic, so it's

1030
00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:23.679
<v Speaker 2>going to change and it changes as we use it.

1031
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:25.400
<v Speaker 3>But like, why can't that be okay?

1032
00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:28.519
<v Speaker 5>Like why do we have these crusades about like, no,

1033
00:49:28.599 --> 00:49:30.719
<v Speaker 5>we have to preserve this, you know, like we're still

1034
00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:32.760
<v Speaker 5>spelling through th h R o U g H.

1035
00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:33.960
<v Speaker 3>There is no reason for that.

1036
00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:35.840
<v Speaker 2>No reason for it. It's true.

1037
00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:37.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, don't even get me started.

1038
00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:39.400
<v Speaker 5>So linguists are really interested in speech, but like, don't

1039
00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:41.159
<v Speaker 5>even get me started on writing, because like the writing

1040
00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:43.000
<v Speaker 5>system of English is at nightmare.

1041
00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:45.880
<v Speaker 2>It's I imagine it makes it a harder, harder language

1042
00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:47.039
<v Speaker 2>to master as well.

1043
00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:49.679
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, in terms of writing, right, So actually people think,

1044
00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:52.639
<v Speaker 5>oh English is so hard to learn. It depends on

1045
00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:55.239
<v Speaker 5>the language you're coming from. So your first language determines

1046
00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:57.800
<v Speaker 5>the difficulty of the second language, the relationship between the

1047
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:00.039
<v Speaker 5>first and second, So sort of the farther away, the

1048
00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:03.320
<v Speaker 5>harder it might be for you. But also the writing

1049
00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:05.880
<v Speaker 5>system is really bad, right, So French is also very

1050
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:07.960
<v Speaker 5>hard to learn to write in, like for the same

1051
00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:10.440
<v Speaker 5>reason Spanish is so easy to learn to write in,

1052
00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:14.639
<v Speaker 5>because like there's a sound and letter correspondence, so like

1053
00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:16.920
<v Speaker 5>you don't get this thing in Spanish where like oh,

1054
00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:18.280
<v Speaker 5>could be eight hundred vowels.

1055
00:50:18.320 --> 00:50:20.679
<v Speaker 2>Like that's a good point. Yeah, you see an e

1056
00:50:21.079 --> 00:50:22.719
<v Speaker 2>and an i in the same word. You don't know

1057
00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:27.119
<v Speaker 2>what's going on? Yeah? Yeah, And so are there any

1058
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:29.000
<v Speaker 2>I always ask this of all the ologists, are there

1059
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:32.199
<v Speaker 2>any anything in media that addresses what you do that

1060
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:34.280
<v Speaker 2>you really like or you really think? Missus the mark,

1061
00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:36.119
<v Speaker 2>I always think about that Key and Peel sketch, one

1062
00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:37.960
<v Speaker 2>of the first Key and Pel sketches I ever saw.

1063
00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:40.519
<v Speaker 2>I was like, oh my god.

1064
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:42.159
<v Speaker 3>Is it when they're on the phone and past each other?

1065
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:44.920
<v Speaker 5>Yeah? Okay, So for everybody listening out there, yeah, I

1066
00:50:44.920 --> 00:50:47.159
<v Speaker 5>teach with Key and Peel a lot because I'm interested

1067
00:50:47.159 --> 00:50:48.519
<v Speaker 5>in biracial people and they're.

1068
00:50:48.360 --> 00:50:49.119
<v Speaker 3>Just so on the market.

1069
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:52.800
<v Speaker 5>Right, So this is this is a skit in which

1070
00:50:53.159 --> 00:50:55.199
<v Speaker 5>Key is like on one side of a street and

1071
00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:57.320
<v Speaker 5>Peels on the other, and they're like walking towards each

1072
00:50:57.320 --> 00:50:58.679
<v Speaker 5>other about to pass each other, and each of them

1073
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:00.039
<v Speaker 5>is on the phone and they don't know each other.

1074
00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:03.639
<v Speaker 3>Because you're my wife and you love the theater and

1075
00:51:04.119 --> 00:51:05.400
<v Speaker 3>it's your birthday.

1076
00:51:06.400 --> 00:51:08.719
<v Speaker 5>Great, and they're talking in a very sort of standard

1077
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:11.360
<v Speaker 5>way like yes, okay, I'm gonna go to Whole Foods later.

1078
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:13.360
<v Speaker 5>Like each of them is talking like this, and as

1079
00:51:13.360 --> 00:51:15.960
<v Speaker 5>they get closer, they speak more African American English.

1080
00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:17.239
<v Speaker 3>So then he's like.

1081
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:19.679
<v Speaker 2>The orchestra is already filled up, but they do have

1082
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:21.960
<v Speaker 2>seats that are still left in the dress circle.

1083
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:23.760
<v Speaker 1>So if you want to me to get them theater

1084
00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:25.960
<v Speaker 1>tickets right now, we'll do a right stuff dog about

1085
00:51:25.960 --> 00:51:27.880
<v Speaker 1>five minutes a work. Yeah, okay, yeah cool.

1086
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:30.239
<v Speaker 3>No, they all go singers, they all go singer song.

1087
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:33.119
<v Speaker 1>No, man, I'm about I'm telling you man, I'm about

1088
00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:33.760
<v Speaker 1>to cross the study.

1089
00:51:33.800 --> 00:51:35.159
<v Speaker 3>I think Peele gets to the other side, he's like,

1090
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:37.679
<v Speaker 3>oh my gosh, Christian, I almost totally just got mugged

1091
00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:38.159
<v Speaker 3>right now.

1092
00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:40.920
<v Speaker 5>Oh so they were so standard and then they felt

1093
00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:43.280
<v Speaker 5>this need to like perform African American English when they

1094
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:45.519
<v Speaker 5>passed each other. But then he bought into like all

1095
00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:48.039
<v Speaker 5>of these white ideologies, like at the it's crazy.

1096
00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Are there any questions that you cringe when you get

1097
00:51:52.039 --> 00:51:53.559
<v Speaker 2>asked in what you do, like.

1098
00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:57.159
<v Speaker 3>How many languages do you speak? Never ask a linguist

1099
00:51:57.199 --> 00:51:58.639
<v Speaker 3>how many languages do you speak?

1100
00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:02.599
<v Speaker 2>Really you're like a few though, to be fair.

1101
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:05.480
<v Speaker 5>I know, but it's like not important, like I could,

1102
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:11.840
<v Speaker 5>you know, sometimes I joke with people like zero, Like, clearly,

1103
00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:14.639
<v Speaker 5>English is my first language, and I studied Spanish.

1104
00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:14.840
<v Speaker 3>For a long time.

1105
00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:17.599
<v Speaker 5>I have to agree in Spanish, and I studied Bolivian

1106
00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:20.000
<v Speaker 5>Quechua for a while, in Arabic for a while, but

1107
00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:21.280
<v Speaker 5>I don't speak super well.

1108
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:24.679
<v Speaker 2>Right, So in asking Nicole her least favorite question, I

1109
00:52:24.760 --> 00:52:29.039
<v Speaker 2>asked Nicole her least favorite question. I am the worst.

1110
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:31.599
<v Speaker 5>I know a lot of things about a lot of languages,

1111
00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:34.360
<v Speaker 5>but that's not what linguists do. Like sometimes people think

1112
00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:37.519
<v Speaker 5>we just go around collecting languages like their stamps or something. Yeah,

1113
00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:39.840
<v Speaker 5>and like we don't, Like we care a lot about

1114
00:52:39.960 --> 00:52:43.280
<v Speaker 5>the structure of the thing. And I'm associate linguist by training,

1115
00:52:43.320 --> 00:52:45.840
<v Speaker 5>and so like I care a lot about the people, right,

1116
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:47.719
<v Speaker 5>I care about the language and as much as I

1117
00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:49.920
<v Speaker 5>need to understand it to be able to understand what's

1118
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:51.760
<v Speaker 5>going on with the people there. So all of this

1119
00:52:51.800 --> 00:52:54.920
<v Speaker 5>stuff about inequality that I mentioned earlier, like when I

1120
00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:57.519
<v Speaker 5>went to Peru, Well, I needed to know some Quechua

1121
00:52:57.840 --> 00:52:59.519
<v Speaker 5>to be able to see the ways in which this

1122
00:52:59.559 --> 00:53:02.679
<v Speaker 5>prejudice like operates. Right, I need to know something about

1123
00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:04.280
<v Speaker 5>African American English because I need to be able to

1124
00:53:04.280 --> 00:53:06.039
<v Speaker 5>see the ways in which this operates. And of course,

1125
00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:07.880
<v Speaker 5>like these are my first this is my first language,

1126
00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:10.400
<v Speaker 5>so it's fine. But like when we talk about studying

1127
00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:13.440
<v Speaker 5>other languages, we are often using them to answer our

1128
00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:16.800
<v Speaker 5>scientific questions, not to be like especially communicative. Right, So

1129
00:53:16.840 --> 00:53:18.840
<v Speaker 5>if you're hanging out with a linguist that you know

1130
00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:20.880
<v Speaker 5>has studied French, like, that doesn't mean that they're going

1131
00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:23.920
<v Speaker 5>to help you in Paris. They'll tell you all about

1132
00:53:23.960 --> 00:53:25.960
<v Speaker 5>like the structure of old French, but they will not

1133
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.559
<v Speaker 5>be able to help you order a coffee.

1134
00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:31.199
<v Speaker 2>You're like, don't don't get subway directions from them?

1135
00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:32.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, don't do it.

1136
00:53:33.320 --> 00:53:35.360
<v Speaker 2>So I note if you ever go to Paris, two things,

1137
00:53:35.840 --> 00:53:39.159
<v Speaker 2>let old uncle Ali help you out. Don't wear athletic

1138
00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:44.000
<v Speaker 2>sneakers unless you are actively participating in a triathlon. Also,

1139
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:47.840
<v Speaker 2>just learn how to apologize in French. It's literally the

1140
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:52.440
<v Speaker 2>most useful linguistic tool. To have in your pocket, just groveling,

1141
00:53:53.159 --> 00:53:55.960
<v Speaker 2>ashamed to be American ness, and then everyone's so nice

1142
00:53:55.960 --> 00:53:57.920
<v Speaker 2>to you. They're like, oh, you're cute. You are like

1143
00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:00.760
<v Speaker 2>a sad dog. And do you find yourself from on

1144
00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:03.360
<v Speaker 2>a personal level, do you find yourself code switching? Do

1145
00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:05.679
<v Speaker 2>you do you? Are you more aware of that in

1146
00:54:05.719 --> 00:54:07.480
<v Speaker 2>your own life and in your friend's life.

1147
00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:10.880
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I can't even like control it. It's hard to

1148
00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:13.239
<v Speaker 5>It takes a lot of cognitive load to be able

1149
00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:15.440
<v Speaker 5>to understand what you're doing at the same time as

1150
00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:17.960
<v Speaker 5>you're doing it. So when I interview people, they're like, yeah,

1151
00:54:17.960 --> 00:54:19.760
<v Speaker 5>I code switch, And I'm like, what do you change?

1152
00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:21.639
<v Speaker 5>And they're like, I don't know. And I feel the

1153
00:54:21.639 --> 00:54:23.960
<v Speaker 5>same way, Like I know the things that people change,

1154
00:54:23.960 --> 00:54:26.360
<v Speaker 5>like because I'm a scientist. But if it's like I

1155
00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:29.599
<v Speaker 5>have my voice right that I use with my grandma,

1156
00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:33.559
<v Speaker 5>or like I'm gonna historically black sorority skiwa storms and

1157
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:36.920
<v Speaker 5>when I'm there, like I have a style right, and

1158
00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:39.360
<v Speaker 5>it's different than the style that I have like with

1159
00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:42.199
<v Speaker 5>you know, my white students, or like with my white

1160
00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:44.000
<v Speaker 5>mother or you know, things like that.

1161
00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:45.920
<v Speaker 3>But to say exactly what.

1162
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:48.519
<v Speaker 5>It is, like, yes, it's in the intonation probably, but

1163
00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:49.639
<v Speaker 5>I can't even really tell.

1164
00:54:49.480 --> 00:54:49.920
<v Speaker 3>You what is.

1165
00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:54.559
<v Speaker 2>And I normally I run through listener questions, but because traffic,

1166
00:54:54.559 --> 00:54:56.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to run through the most popular one I got.

1167
00:54:57.119 --> 00:54:58.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we have ten minutes.

1168
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:01.480
<v Speaker 2>Good, But before we you get to your Patreon questions,

1169
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:03.519
<v Speaker 2>we're going to hear a little bit about sponsors who

1170
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:06.039
<v Speaker 2>make it possible for us to donate to a different

1171
00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:08.880
<v Speaker 2>organization or charity each week. We didn't get to do

1172
00:55:08.920 --> 00:55:11.000
<v Speaker 2>this the first time around with Nicole Holidays. So I

1173
00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:12.679
<v Speaker 2>texted her this morning and I said, Hey, we get

1174
00:55:12.679 --> 00:55:14.800
<v Speaker 2>to donate to a charity. What do you choose? And

1175
00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:18.599
<v Speaker 2>she said awesome, and she chose Initiate Justice. Initiate Justice

1176
00:55:18.639 --> 00:55:21.880
<v Speaker 2>dot org is an organization that partners community members and

1177
00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:25.719
<v Speaker 2>the formerly incarcerated to address mass incarceration in California. Their

1178
00:55:25.760 --> 00:55:28.920
<v Speaker 2>mission is to end mass incarceration by activating the power

1179
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:32.119
<v Speaker 2>of the people directly impacts. So they organize members both

1180
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:34.840
<v Speaker 2>inside and outside of prisons to advocate for their well

1181
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:37.920
<v Speaker 2>being and change criminal justice policy in California.

1182
00:55:38.079 --> 00:55:40.239
<v Speaker 3>And that is Initiate Justice dot org.

1183
00:55:40.400 --> 00:55:43.000
<v Speaker 2>So a donation went to them this week thanks to

1184
00:55:43.079 --> 00:55:46.239
<v Speaker 2>sponsors that you might hear about right now get value.

1185
00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:48.760
<v Speaker 1>You can't argue with at Tesco with their amazing club

1186
00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:51.480
<v Speaker 1>card prices. Have the perfect night in with our finest

1187
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:54.519
<v Speaker 1>frozen pizza meal deal. Get a finest frozen pizza, chips

1188
00:55:54.519 --> 00:55:56.960
<v Speaker 1>and ice cream all for six to zero, like our

1189
00:55:57.000 --> 00:55:59.760
<v Speaker 1>delicious spicy Salami, hot honey and do yet or Marc

1190
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:03.599
<v Speaker 1>Woodfard pizzas served up with our crispy junkie chips and

1191
00:56:03.719 --> 00:56:06.559
<v Speaker 1>ice cream like sea salta caramel or pistachio for dessert.

1192
00:56:06.960 --> 00:56:10.400
<v Speaker 1>Can't argue with that shop in store or online. Tesco.

1193
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:14.239
<v Speaker 1>Every Little helps available in most stores, Prices varying express.

1194
00:56:17.079 --> 00:56:19.880
<v Speaker 2>Okay, back to your questions. I think the most popular

1195
00:56:19.960 --> 00:56:21.679
<v Speaker 2>question I got because we had a lot of questions,

1196
00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:26.639
<v Speaker 2>but is what happens to me when my accent comes

1197
00:56:26.679 --> 00:56:29.480
<v Speaker 2>out when I'm drunk? What is going on there?

1198
00:56:29.559 --> 00:56:32.440
<v Speaker 5>I love that as a question. That's the most popular question. Yeah,

1199
00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:36.920
<v Speaker 5>what happens when you're drunk? A couple things. There's some lowered.

1200
00:56:36.559 --> 00:56:40.199
<v Speaker 3>Inhibitions that happen with alcohol. Right, So say that.

1201
00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:42.719
<v Speaker 5>You are a speaker of a stigmatized variety, like you

1202
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:44.519
<v Speaker 5>are from the South and you sound southern, and you

1203
00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:48.639
<v Speaker 5>are in California. You probably do some work in your mind,

1204
00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:52.400
<v Speaker 5>maybe not even consciously, to sound less Southern, because you

1205
00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:54.760
<v Speaker 5>get tired of people either making fun of you or

1206
00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:57.079
<v Speaker 5>just commenting on it. Even you're like, no, I'm just

1207
00:56:57.079 --> 00:56:58.639
<v Speaker 5>gonna sound like a California and so I can like

1208
00:56:58.760 --> 00:57:00.360
<v Speaker 5>order my stupid coffee and I have to like have

1209
00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:02.679
<v Speaker 5>a conversation about where I'm from, right, people do that,

1210
00:57:03.239 --> 00:57:09.119
<v Speaker 5>But when you drink, your cognitive abilities decline so that

1211
00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:13.039
<v Speaker 5>you actually can't necessarily manage that at the same level

1212
00:57:13.079 --> 00:57:14.880
<v Speaker 5>that you would if you were sober. Like your brain

1213
00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:17.760
<v Speaker 5>is slower, right, so you can't do it as well.

1214
00:57:18.199 --> 00:57:20.920
<v Speaker 5>The other thing is your brain is slower, but also

1215
00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:23.440
<v Speaker 5>like you might just not care anymore, right.

1216
00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:27.480
<v Speaker 3>Whatever, I'm from the South, and I'm just gonna do.

1217
00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:31.000
<v Speaker 2>It, right, I am this way with chancing and karaoke.

1218
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:32.599
<v Speaker 2>But it's not all mental.

1219
00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:37.199
<v Speaker 5>There's another thing, sort of physiologically, right, So alcohol can

1220
00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:40.119
<v Speaker 5>cause sort of a loosening of some of the pieces

1221
00:57:40.119 --> 00:57:44.599
<v Speaker 5>of your vocal check. So that's why you get sword speech, right,

1222
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:47.320
<v Speaker 5>You lose some control. So if your speech is kind

1223
00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:50.000
<v Speaker 5>of slurring or something like that because you're really drunk,

1224
00:57:50.360 --> 00:57:51.719
<v Speaker 5>then you'll sound different.

1225
00:57:52.239 --> 00:57:53.760
<v Speaker 2>I tried to find a good movie clip with a

1226
00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:56.239
<v Speaker 2>drunk Southerner here. But I just started going down rabbit

1227
00:57:56.239 --> 00:58:00.480
<v Speaker 2>holes of drunk people like barfing on YouTube and started

1228
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:02.800
<v Speaker 2>making me sad. Anyway, I wanted to ask her so

1229
00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:05.559
<v Speaker 2>many more questions, but she had a heart out and

1230
00:58:05.800 --> 00:58:09.480
<v Speaker 2>la Memorial Day traffic is the Devil's evening board game.

1231
00:58:09.519 --> 00:58:12.280
<v Speaker 2>And I'm so sorry. What do you think? My last

1232
00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:15.679
<v Speaker 2>two questions are always the thing that you hate the

1233
00:58:15.719 --> 00:58:18.079
<v Speaker 2>most about your job? What do you hate about it?

1234
00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:22.079
<v Speaker 2>Is it? Is it commute or ours or certain prejudices

1235
00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:25.239
<v Speaker 2>you face? Like what irks you the most about what

1236
00:58:25.280 --> 00:58:25.599
<v Speaker 2>you do?

1237
00:58:26.119 --> 00:58:31.239
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's really hard to be an expert on language

1238
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:35.519
<v Speaker 5>because language is a thing that everybody has, right, So

1239
00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:38.360
<v Speaker 5>if I was like a geologist, I always dream of

1240
00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:40.840
<v Speaker 5>like my alternate world in which I'm a geologist and

1241
00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:42.440
<v Speaker 5>I study rocks and people leave me alone.

1242
00:58:42.440 --> 00:58:44.360
<v Speaker 3>They don't ask me how many rocks I have from

1243
00:58:44.559 --> 00:58:46.320
<v Speaker 3>how many language speaking?

1244
00:58:46.400 --> 00:58:49.079
<v Speaker 5>But people assume that you're an expert, right, They're like, oh,

1245
00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:51.039
<v Speaker 5>you know way more about rocks than me. So like

1246
00:58:51.199 --> 00:58:54.000
<v Speaker 5>when you come across rocks in the wild, they're like, hey, geologists,

1247
00:58:54.039 --> 00:58:55.760
<v Speaker 5>tell me about this rock, and you're like, cool, I

1248
00:58:55.760 --> 00:58:58.880
<v Speaker 5>will because I'm an expert. When you're a linguist, everyone

1249
00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:02.480
<v Speaker 5>wants to tell you about the thing that you're wrong about.

1250
00:59:02.480 --> 00:59:04.519
<v Speaker 3>And I'm like, I am actually an expert in this thing.

1251
00:59:04.719 --> 00:59:08.079
<v Speaker 5>And what's maddening is every native speaker is an expert

1252
00:59:08.079 --> 00:59:10.599
<v Speaker 5>about their language. Like, people know things about language that

1253
00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:13.760
<v Speaker 5>I don't know. But I do have some scientrific training that,

1254
00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:16.239
<v Speaker 5>you know. I wish people would like give me credit for.

1255
00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:18.400
<v Speaker 5>So I have had people like straight fight me when

1256
00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:20.719
<v Speaker 5>I say, like, African American English is rule governed.

1257
00:59:20.800 --> 00:59:22.719
<v Speaker 3>They're like, no, it's just bad grammar. I'm like, I

1258
00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:26.079
<v Speaker 3>have a PhD. O my god, and so that is

1259
00:59:26.119 --> 00:59:26.440
<v Speaker 3>the thing.

1260
00:59:27.079 --> 00:59:29.800
<v Speaker 2>And you to get that PhD that must have required

1261
00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:32.719
<v Speaker 2>so much data collection? And did you have to do

1262
00:59:33.159 --> 00:59:35.440
<v Speaker 2>sentence structuring? I mean did you did you have to

1263
00:59:35.440 --> 00:59:36.519
<v Speaker 2>come out with formulas?

1264
00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:37.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

1265
00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:39.800
<v Speaker 5>So I spent five years in grad school, which is

1266
00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:42.079
<v Speaker 5>not even that many comparatively.

1267
00:59:42.199 --> 00:59:42.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1268
00:59:43.360 --> 00:59:45.599
<v Speaker 2>Side note, average time to get a PhD. Looked it

1269
00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:49.360
<v Speaker 2>up eight point two years. Now, the average length of

1270
00:59:49.400 --> 00:59:53.559
<v Speaker 2>an American marriage eight point two years. So someone please

1271
00:59:53.960 --> 00:59:57.400
<v Speaker 2>write a dissertation on how long a person can withstand

1272
00:59:57.440 --> 01:00:00.599
<v Speaker 2>something difficult yet illuminating.

1273
01:00:00.360 --> 01:00:03.519
<v Speaker 5>And I had to study every aspect of linguistic analysis,

1274
01:00:03.559 --> 01:00:05.880
<v Speaker 5>So like I study tone and social factors, but like

1275
01:00:06.199 --> 01:00:09.519
<v Speaker 5>I had to study the way that sounds are put together,

1276
01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:11.159
<v Speaker 5>the way that words are put together, the way that

1277
01:00:11.199 --> 01:00:15.480
<v Speaker 5>sentences are put together, like meaning in a logic theory.

1278
01:00:15.239 --> 01:00:15.880
<v Speaker 3>Kind of context.

1279
01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:18.000
<v Speaker 5>Like, I just study so many things about the nature

1280
01:00:18.039 --> 01:00:21.199
<v Speaker 5>of language that I don't necessarily use every day now

1281
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:26.480
<v Speaker 5>except for what I'm teaching, but also just thinking really

1282
01:00:26.559 --> 01:00:29.039
<v Speaker 5>deeply about the nature of sound, which is the thing

1283
01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:31.599
<v Speaker 5>that I do, and the nature of like how language

1284
01:00:31.599 --> 01:00:34.239
<v Speaker 5>works to do social things, like we use it to

1285
01:00:34.239 --> 01:00:35.400
<v Speaker 5>accomplish social things.

1286
01:00:35.480 --> 01:00:36.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. True.

1287
01:00:36.199 --> 01:00:37.320
<v Speaker 3>So even if you.

1288
01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:40.880
<v Speaker 5>Know it's not necessarily that, like having the PhD is

1289
01:00:40.920 --> 01:00:42.880
<v Speaker 5>the big thing. The thing is that I've spent like

1290
01:00:43.039 --> 01:00:46.599
<v Speaker 5>years and years reading and thinking and talking and writing

1291
01:00:46.599 --> 01:00:49.079
<v Speaker 5>about these things, so I feel, you know, somewhat qualified

1292
01:00:49.079 --> 01:00:50.199
<v Speaker 5>to speak on them.

1293
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:52.280
<v Speaker 2>It's great that you're talking about talking talking.

1294
01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:54.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, talking about how we do is talk about talking.

1295
01:00:55.320 --> 01:00:57.039
<v Speaker 2>And then what's your favorite thing about it? What just

1296
01:00:57.119 --> 01:00:58.119
<v Speaker 2>like gives you butterflies?

1297
01:00:59.159 --> 01:01:01.679
<v Speaker 5>I really like teaching students. So you know, I teach

1298
01:01:01.679 --> 01:01:04.320
<v Speaker 5>in a liberal arts college and it's undergrads, and people

1299
01:01:04.320 --> 01:01:05.920
<v Speaker 5>are like oh, you don't want grad students and like,

1300
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:07.480
<v Speaker 5>crad students are a pain. Have you ever met a

1301
01:01:07.480 --> 01:01:09.920
<v Speaker 5>grad student? I was the worst grad student. I don't

1302
01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:12.599
<v Speaker 5>want people like me. I love teaching undergrads because I

1303
01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:15.079
<v Speaker 5>will walk in to like day one of intro to

1304
01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:17.960
<v Speaker 5>linguistics and be like, I am about to blow your

1305
01:01:18.039 --> 01:01:22.199
<v Speaker 5>mind just with even some of the things that have

1306
01:01:22.280 --> 01:01:24.239
<v Speaker 5>come up here about like you know what happens in

1307
01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:27.480
<v Speaker 5>the educational system, like the ways in which language is prejudice,

1308
01:01:27.519 --> 01:01:29.480
<v Speaker 5>the ways in which people that are trying to mock

1309
01:01:29.519 --> 01:01:34.280
<v Speaker 5>African American English get it's so wrong, right, the physiology stuff,

1310
01:01:34.280 --> 01:01:38.199
<v Speaker 5>the things about like kids exaggerating gender differences, like the

1311
01:01:38.239 --> 01:01:40.360
<v Speaker 5>way that the vocal tract works. Like I am a

1312
01:01:40.360 --> 01:01:42.719
<v Speaker 5>big nerd, but all of this stuff is super cool

1313
01:01:42.760 --> 01:01:44.920
<v Speaker 5>to me, and it tells us a lot about the

1314
01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:48.199
<v Speaker 5>social world that we inhabit. So my favorite thing is

1315
01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:49.920
<v Speaker 5>just like watching the eyes light up and be like,

1316
01:01:50.360 --> 01:01:53.760
<v Speaker 5>no way, whoa, You're.

1317
01:01:53.639 --> 01:01:56.920
<v Speaker 2>Just seeing like light bulbs go off, like illuminating, right,

1318
01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:01.639
<v Speaker 2>so exciting because that's you've had so many light bulb

1319
01:02:01.639 --> 01:02:03.960
<v Speaker 2>moments like that coming to do what you do, Yeah,

1320
01:02:04.079 --> 01:02:06.199
<v Speaker 2>oh my gosh. And then is there anything you think

1321
01:02:06.880 --> 01:02:09.800
<v Speaker 2>people who are more curious about this, like anywhere to

1322
01:02:10.039 --> 01:02:12.800
<v Speaker 2>see your writing or any any resources you think people

1323
01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:15.239
<v Speaker 2>should look down, anything people should do or be more

1324
01:02:15.280 --> 01:02:17.199
<v Speaker 2>aware of, because I could sit here and ask you

1325
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:21.159
<v Speaker 2>questions for ten hours, like I'm so pissed at traffic

1326
01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:24.559
<v Speaker 2>right now because this is so fascinating. But anything anything

1327
01:02:24.559 --> 01:02:26.239
<v Speaker 2>you can point to any doser don't.

1328
01:02:27.280 --> 01:02:30.800
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, So I will say if you like podcasts, which

1329
01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:33.880
<v Speaker 5>you might, there's one that's called Enthusiasm.

1330
01:02:34.320 --> 01:02:34.920
<v Speaker 3>It's really good.

1331
01:02:34.960 --> 01:02:38.719
<v Speaker 5>It's got a lot of sort of introductory topics on linguistics.

1332
01:02:38.440 --> 01:02:40.039
<v Speaker 3>There's a few language podcasts.

1333
01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:43.000
<v Speaker 5>There's also one Lexicon Valley, which is hosted by John

1334
01:02:43.039 --> 01:02:46.039
<v Speaker 5>mccorder at Columbia Universities linguistics professor.

1335
01:02:46.280 --> 01:02:48.519
<v Speaker 2>So I'll put links to those on my website ali

1336
01:02:48.519 --> 01:02:51.119
<v Speaker 2>war dot com slash ologies, as well as links to

1337
01:02:51.480 --> 01:02:55.159
<v Speaker 2>some books Nicole recommends about linguistics and discrimination.

1338
01:02:55.400 --> 01:02:58.119
<v Speaker 5>I recommend a book called English with an Accent by

1339
01:02:58.199 --> 01:03:01.480
<v Speaker 5>Rosina Lippy Green a lot about sort of language and

1340
01:03:01.519 --> 01:03:04.320
<v Speaker 5>social social issues and social justice.

1341
01:03:04.079 --> 01:03:06.840
<v Speaker 3>I teach with it in my linguistic discrimination class.

1342
01:03:06.920 --> 01:03:08.960
<v Speaker 5>Cool. But there's a lot of good stuff out there.

1343
01:03:08.960 --> 01:03:11.440
<v Speaker 5>So those are some beginning recommendations and.

1344
01:03:11.400 --> 01:03:12.320
<v Speaker 2>Where can people find you.

1345
01:03:12.880 --> 01:03:17.119
<v Speaker 5>I'm on Twitter, regular Twitter and black Twitter, both twitters.

1346
01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:21.599
<v Speaker 5>I'm mixed linguist on social media, and i like to

1347
01:03:21.800 --> 01:03:25.480
<v Speaker 5>respond to inquiries from you know people, so get at

1348
01:03:25.480 --> 01:03:26.519
<v Speaker 5>me on the interwebs.

1349
01:03:26.519 --> 01:03:29.679
<v Speaker 2>I guess cool and well awesome, We'll get you out

1350
01:03:29.719 --> 01:03:31.920
<v Speaker 2>of here. Thank you so much, welcome.

1351
01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:32.559
<v Speaker 3>It is really fun.

1352
01:03:32.639 --> 01:03:35.719
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god. So to continue learning about and exploring

1353
01:03:35.960 --> 01:03:40.119
<v Speaker 2>intonational phonology, you can look into doctor Nicole Holiday's work.

1354
01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:42.239
<v Speaker 2>She's just brilliant and I want her to give like

1355
01:03:42.360 --> 01:03:45.840
<v Speaker 2>fifty ted talks. And for links to books and documentaries

1356
01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:47.960
<v Speaker 2>that we talked about, you can go to aliward dot

1357
01:03:48.039 --> 01:03:49.920
<v Speaker 2>com slash ologies. I'll put a bunch of links there.

1358
01:03:50.280 --> 01:03:53.400
<v Speaker 2>You can also join up in the Ologies podcast Facebook group.

1359
01:03:53.639 --> 01:03:57.239
<v Speaker 2>And thank you to my dear sisters Hannah Liippo and

1360
01:03:57.239 --> 01:04:00.679
<v Speaker 2>Aaron Talbert for being admins of that. Ology is on

1361
01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:05.320
<v Speaker 2>Twitter and Instagram as Ologies, and I'm on Instagram and

1362
01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:08.719
<v Speaker 2>average white Lady Twitter as Ali Ward with one L.

1363
01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:11.440
<v Speaker 2>And thank you as always to the patrons who support

1364
01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:14.440
<v Speaker 2>the show. You allow me to pay my wonderful editor,

1365
01:04:14.480 --> 01:04:17.559
<v Speaker 2>Stephen Ray Morris to chop this all together. Hi, Stephen

1366
01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:20.880
<v Speaker 2>and thank you if you'd like an Ology shirt or

1367
01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:23.840
<v Speaker 2>a pin or a tope bag. Ologiesmerch dot Com has

1368
01:04:23.880 --> 01:04:26.280
<v Speaker 2>you so covered. Thank you Shannon Feltus and Bonnie Dutch

1369
01:04:26.280 --> 01:04:29.559
<v Speaker 2>for managing that. The Ologies theme song was written and

1370
01:04:29.639 --> 01:04:32.719
<v Speaker 2>performed by Nick Thorburn of the band Islands. And if

1371
01:04:32.760 --> 01:04:34.800
<v Speaker 2>you listen to the end of the episode, have you

1372
01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:37.119
<v Speaker 2>guys been doing that? Do you know that? You know?

1373
01:04:37.199 --> 01:04:39.960
<v Speaker 2>I tell a secret at the end, and this week

1374
01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:43.159
<v Speaker 2>the secret is that my face was like, Hey, I

1375
01:04:43.199 --> 01:04:46.159
<v Speaker 2>know you have some shoots this week. What if do

1376
01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:48.880
<v Speaker 2>you want a big blemish on your face? On your chin?

1377
01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:52.599
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, that sounds great. I read somewhere

1378
01:04:52.639 --> 01:04:56.519
<v Speaker 2>that you can use hemorrhoid cream to decrease the size

1379
01:04:56.559 --> 01:04:59.679
<v Speaker 2>of under eyebags or a blemish. And I didn't research

1380
01:04:59.719 --> 01:05:02.440
<v Speaker 2>it ahead of time. I just happened to be at

1381
01:05:02.440 --> 01:05:04.719
<v Speaker 2>the drug store and I purchased some and then I

1382
01:05:04.760 --> 01:05:07.239
<v Speaker 2>put it on my face. And now I'll research whether

1383
01:05:07.320 --> 01:05:08.639
<v Speaker 2>or not that was a bad idea. But I want

1384
01:05:08.679 --> 01:05:12.159
<v Speaker 2>you to know, as I recorded all these asides in

1385
01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:15.880
<v Speaker 2>this hotel room in Michigan, I have butt cream on

1386
01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:19.440
<v Speaker 2>my face. I'll let you know how it goes. Okay,

1387
01:05:19.519 --> 01:05:33.719
<v Speaker 2>Bryebye pacadermatology, homeology, ordo, zoology, lithology, Yeah, ninology, meteorology, paratology, ethology, ceriology, selinology.

1388
01:05:40.239 --> 01:05:41.639
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, I just saw a squirrel. It doesn't

1389
01:05:41.639 --> 01:05:44.480
<v Speaker 2>have a tail. Well that was worth the drey.

1390
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:49.519
<v Speaker 1>Get value. You can't argue with at Tesco with their

1391
01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:52.639
<v Speaker 1>amazing club card prices. Serve up something special with our

1392
01:05:52.679 --> 01:05:55.360
<v Speaker 1>finest Meil deal for two starring one main, two sides

1393
01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:58.320
<v Speaker 1>and dessert for only sixteen year row like succulent board

1394
01:05:58.320 --> 01:06:00.599
<v Speaker 1>be approved. Ira shined a striploind sty eggs with pepper

1395
01:06:00.679 --> 01:06:04.320
<v Speaker 1>corn butter or delicious Irish Chicken Parmeshana served with creamy

1396
01:06:04.320 --> 01:06:07.400
<v Speaker 1>potato grottam and her mix of rainbow root vegetables and

1397
01:06:07.559 --> 01:06:11.239
<v Speaker 1>enjoy Goozillionaire or Soldier Caramel cheesecake. Can't argue with that

1398
01:06:11.639 --> 01:06:15.400
<v Speaker 1>shop in store or online. Tesco. Every little helps available

1399
01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:16.920
<v Speaker 1>the most stores, prices varying Express