WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:10.599 You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen? 2 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:17.120 What a. 3 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:26.760 Welcome to the Occult Rejects. 4 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:29.079 In this episode, we got a bunch of guests here 5 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:31.719 and a very exciting book and stuff to talk about. 6 00:00:32.359 --> 00:00:34.960 Should be really interesting and maybe out there, and that's 7 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:37.399 what exactly what this show's about. So but before we 8 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:40.359 introduced these guests, let me introduce the other rejects. 9 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:42.320 Judith, what is going on? 10 00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:45.840 How are you hi? Thank you for having me again. 11 00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:52.600 I'm Balloon Judas Swanson. Welcome to our guests today. I'm 12 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:55.759 looking forward to the topic and you could find me 13 00:00:55.840 --> 00:01:00.560 on YouTube and on x as the Loon on I'm 14 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:04.920 at the Loon fifty and I deal with more of 15 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:10.439 meditation and self development. And that's it. 16 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:11.280 And thank you again. 17 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:14.400 Also, no, thank you. I appreciate you making it again. 18 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:14.959 I appreciate it. 19 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:19.040 And Robbie March, sir, please let everyone out where they 20 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:20.400 can find all your amazing work. 21 00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:20.840 Please. 22 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:23.280 Yes, thanks for having me on. Nick. 23 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:25.719 It's always a great time to come hang out. And 24 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:29.959 this is a topic that I'm extremely interested in, just 25 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:33.640 in regard to consciousness and you know, the medicine for 26 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:38.760 the mind, body and soul. I am an artist and illustrator. 27 00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:42.599 I do art for bands and festivals, different stuff like that. 28 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:45.920 I've been in the industry about thirty five years and 29 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:49.480 I come on to do this to have fun and 30 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:54.799 talk about these different topics, you know, from philosophy to esoterica. 31 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:58.280 So yeah, thanks for having me on. And if anybody 32 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:00.439 wants to check out my other stuff, you can check 33 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:03.319 out my link tree which is link tree r m 34 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:07.120 r X and that'll pull up all my miscellaneous links 35 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:09.319 and ways that you can get a hold of me. 36 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:10.800 So thanks for having me on. 37 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:13.199 Nick. Oh, of course, thank you for making it. 38 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:17.199 And uh yeah, our guests are the co authors of 39 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:21.120 the eight second Ascension. That is a guide to metaprogramming 40 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:24.560 the multi dimensional self, and that is written by Douglas 41 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:28.319 s Wingate and doctor Rachel Tretsky. And we do have 42 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:32.080 doctor J. Brown, David sorry, David J. Brown, who wrote 43 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:34.400 the forward. He is joining us and he's wrote twenty 44 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:37.000 other books and he has done tons of interesting research, 45 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:41.000 and together they've taken the classic Leary and Wilson lineage 46 00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:43.199 idea and reframed it for a modern reader who's trying 47 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:47.199 to do the real work understanding conditioning, navigating altered states, 48 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:50.919 integrating big experiences, and if we're being honest, figuring out 49 00:02:50.919 --> 00:02:54.800 who's actually holding the keyboard inside of our head. So yeah, 50 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:56.879 we got the three of them and I will off. 51 00:02:57.199 --> 00:03:01.000 We'll start off with you, Doug. Please let everybody know 52 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:01.840 what's up with you. 53 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:02.879 Sure. 54 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:03.120 Yeah. 55 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:04.599 My name is Doctors are Wingates. 56 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:10.439 I mostly work as integrative neuro rehabilitation specialists, so I've 57 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:15.120 been working in neurorehabilitation. 58 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:16.439 And a number of different realms for the last fifteen 59 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:17.080 years or so. 60 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:20.719 I'm also a licensed pilocybin facilitator in the state of Oregon, 61 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:26.639 so I've had the opportunity to legally facilitate hundreds of 62 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:29.319 psilocybin journeys at this point. A lot of those have 63 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:32.400 been working with people who have history of neurotrauma. So 64 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:36.680 I focus and do research and psychedelicasists in neuro rehabilitation 65 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:39.759 in addition to being one of the co founders of 66 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:43.400 eight Circuit Ascension alongside doctor Rachel and doctor David ha 67 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:49.759 longtime interests in consciousness and self developments and psychonautics. 68 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.000 So pleasure to be here, No, thank you, this is 69 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:55.560 this is awesome. I really appreciate you all coming and 70 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:56.560 we got doctor Rachel. 71 00:03:56.719 --> 00:03:57.479 What is going on? 72 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:00.000 Yeah, thank you so much for having us. 73 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:03.560 Yes, So, i have a PhD in clinical psychology with 74 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:09.840 an emphasis in depth psychology and further training in psychdelicacist 75 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:13.639 of therapy and particularly which is currently legal to work 76 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:18.120 with KEDMIE assisted therapy. And I've just been really focusing 77 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:21.040 the past couple of years as I worked towards licensure, 78 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:24.959 just working on these projects, really focusing on the eighth 79 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:28.240 Circuit Model and co authoring the book and other projects 80 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:34.639 with doctor Doug and David especially excited about. So we're 81 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:38.360 working on the workbook currently for the main text, the 82 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:44.920 eighth Circuit Ascension Workbook, and then also an oracle deck 83 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:47.639 based on the d MT entities and the eight Circuit model. 84 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:52.639 Awesome, thank you so much, Doctor J. Brown sah please. 85 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:57.759 I'm David J. Brown. I am a writer, author, researcher. 86 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:03.519 My background is in behavioral neuroscience. I was a researcher 87 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:06.720 at New York University and the University of Southern California 88 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:10.639 for a number of years. I did research into neophobia, 89 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:15.879 which is the fear of novelty and electrical brain stimulation. 90 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:21.879 And I'm also the author of twenty books about the 91 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:25.639 evolution of consciousness. I've written books on lucid dreaming. I've 92 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:29.360 written books on the d MT entity phenomena. I've written 93 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:36.720 books on the interface between science and spirituality. Most recently, 94 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:39.800 my book is The Illustrated Field Guide to the d 95 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:43.160 MT Entities, which was a springboard for the project that 96 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:45.879 I'm working on with Rachel for the past year, which 97 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:51.279 is an oracle deck that utilizes the different entities the 98 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:55.720 people encounter on their d MT journeys. And I worked 99 00:05:55.759 --> 00:06:00.000 with maps for a number of years the Multidisciplinary Association 100 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:03.120 for Psychedelic Studies and UH And also I worked for 101 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:08.439 five years with a British biologist, Rupert Sheldrake, about his 102 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:12.560 research into the U the unexplained powers of animals, or 103 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:14.000 the psychic power of animals. 104 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:16.439 That's awesome. Nice. 105 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:17.920 I've tried to get that guy on the show so 106 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:19.519 many times. He's told me no, and I keep trying. 107 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:21.560 Every six months. He's gonna get tired of here. 108 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:24.720 Yeah, he's he's very busy. 109 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:27.079 No, that's what he tells me. I honestly believe that's 110 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:28.959 the truth. All think he's just blowing me off. I 111 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:32.480 think he's honestly busy. That is awesome, man, I mean 112 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:34.600 some things I think I would like to have you 113 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:36.680 back on the show for some other topics you already mentioned. 114 00:06:37.079 --> 00:06:40.759 Great stuff, all right, So I guess I don't know, 115 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:42.680 like I get maybe we'll go one at a time 116 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:45.040 or something. But like I guess, the Doug like, what 117 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:45.560 was it that? 118 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:48.040 What did you like? How did you find yourself getting 119 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:48.399 into this? 120 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:49.959 Yeah? 121 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:53.399 I originally got into my consciousness studies early early on, 122 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:58.639 so interested uh introduced to Taoism and the Dada ching 123 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:03.319 in like thirteen fourteen, and then around age seventeen or so, 124 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:08.480 ran across Robert Anton Wilson in Palell's books here in Portland. 125 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:12.560 Just happened to run across looking through the metax metaphysics section, 126 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:14.519 and Prometheus Rising was. 127 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:16.959 In there and just pulled me in. 128 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:19.959 I thumbed through it and got sucked in ever since 129 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:24.319 and read through that a number of times. And then 130 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:28.759 I was very fortunate before Bob's passing to be involved 131 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:31.480 in his Maybe Logic Academy when he started teaching online, 132 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:33.920 so had the opportunity to go through and work through 133 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:37.319 the eighth circuit model with Robert Anton Wilson which was 134 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:41.600 a huge blessing and growth for me for sure, And 135 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:45.680 then a couple of years later similar offering from Mansaro 136 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:47.959 Ali based on the eighth circuit model as well through 137 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:51.079 the Maybe Logic Academy, and then ultimately outside of that, 138 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:55.120 I've done that training with him a few times before 139 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:58.920 his passing. So it's been a long journey working with 140 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:03.360 this kind of material and always foundationally just super interested 141 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:08.120 in kind of the range of human experience or you know, 142 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:10.279 how broad that experience can be and how we can 143 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:14.160 continue to broaden it and better ourselves. 144 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:16.680 Thank you and doctor Rachel. 145 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:21.240 Yeah, so around the early two thousands, i'd say it 146 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:23.439 was the first time I came across the eighth circuit model. 147 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:25.759 But also similar to. 148 00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:30.920 Doug, early teening years, was really interested in consciousness studies 149 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:35.519 and fell down the verbial rabbit hole, started experimenting with 150 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:40.759 psychedelics and reading all kinds of spiritual literature, practicing all 151 00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:44.519 kinds of stuff. Eight circuit model is such a great 152 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:51.639 tool for really organizing and understanding those experiences and different ideas. Also, 153 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:54.600 so similar to Doug, I was able to take a 154 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:57.360 course with Antro Ali when he had his eighth circuit 155 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:02.360 brain course, so just working in the field of psychedelics, though, 156 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:06.440 I felt like this was just such an important tool 157 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:11.399 that kind of because of Mary's reputation just to kind 158 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:14.440 of fell into the fringes and really wanted to bring 159 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.360 it out to the mainstream because I found it so 160 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:18.759 personally helpful and. 161 00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:22.080 This is great framework to be could be used and 162 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:23.200 help so many people. 163 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:28.840 Thank you appreciate that. And David, please. 164 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:32.440 Let's see how did I get involved in this. I 165 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:35.519 guess I've been interested in dreams and altered states of 166 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:40.279 consciousness ever since I was a child, really, and I 167 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:43.960 had my first LSD trip when I was sixteen years old, 168 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:47.799 and a few days later had my first my first 169 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:51.279 lucid dream spontaneously. And it was like right around that 170 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:54.559 time when I was sixteen and tripping and first exploring 171 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:58.399 these psychedelic states of consciousness that I came across Robert 172 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:02.960 Anton Wilson's book Trigger and Uh. And that book really 173 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:05.919 was a cosmic trigger for me. I mean, it's pretty 174 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:08.440 much my my It mapped out my whole life. You 175 00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:10.799 know that that book. Almost all the people that I've 176 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:13.159 interviewed over the years and people I've worked with or 177 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:17.000 people that I discovered through through reading that book, and 178 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:19.360 it sort of started me on this quest. That's how 179 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:23.639 I got involved in UH neuroscience research. And and I 180 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:26.240 was very fortunate when I was when I was in 181 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:29.320 my mid twenties, I wrote a science fiction novel called 182 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:34.120 called Brainchild. And when I when I when I was 183 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:35.960 still in the process of writing the book and I 184 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:39.279 had just found a publisher, I went to a lecture 185 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:42.960 that Robert Anton Wilson was giving in Santa Cruz and 186 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:45.679 waited for him. After the lectures, I wanted to ask 187 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:48.639 him if he could possibly consider writing a blurb for 188 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:52.080 the back cover of the book. And and I, you know, 189 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:55.559 I got to work out my courage. I was all starstruck. 190 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:57.960 And I went up to meet him and I said, 191 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:00.200 you know, I just finished this science fiction novel and 192 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:02.799 I was wondering if maybe you could possibly write a 193 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:05.600 you know, a little blurb for the back cover. And 194 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:09.080 he did not seem very enthusiastic. He kind of because 195 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:11.399 if I was like one hundredth person that day who 196 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:13.519 asked him for a back cover blurb, and I was 197 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:16.120 feeling kind of embarrassed. But he said, you know, just 198 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:17.440 just mail it to me. And he gave me an 199 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:19.799 address to mail it to, and I so I had 200 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:23.480 my publisher. It was called New Falcon at the time. 201 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:25.759 What are they called now, Original Falcon. They keep changing 202 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:28.399 their name, but they were called New Falcon at the time, 203 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:34.159 and they and they mailed my manuscript to Bob, and 204 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:37.440 I was thrilled to discover that he wrote an eleven 205 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:41.759 page introduction to the book, not just a back over blur. 206 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:43.879 But you know, he was my he was my hero, 207 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:46.759 and having him do this was just, you know, it 208 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:50.320 was just absolutely one of the most magnificent things that's 209 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:52.759 happened in my life. And and as a result of that, 210 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.440 I went to go visit him when he was living 211 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:59.639 in Los Angeles, and he invited me to come to 212 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:03.440 his weekly gatherings he did, you know, sort of book 213 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:07.360 readings and discussion groups every week about his books, about 214 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:12.360 other people's books like James Joyce, and we would sometimes 215 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:14.960 watch movies and talk about them. And I went to 216 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:19.759 Bob's meetings once a week for about twenty years. So 217 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:22.799 he became a very close friend of mine, and I 218 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:25.840 was really fortunate to be able to spend a lot 219 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:31.679 of time talking to Bob about philosophical ideas and creativity 220 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:36.159 and politics and consciousness expansion and all those wonderful things. 221 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:39.519 And I think he's truly one of the greatest geniuses 222 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:44.240 that our speeches has produced. So it was through him 223 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:46.720 that I discovered the eighth circuit model of the brain, 224 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:50.559 of course, and the eighth circuit model, I think is just, 225 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:55.240 you know, it's just the best psychologist psychological model to 226 00:12:55.399 --> 00:12:59.440 explain not only you know, the mundane states of consciousness 227 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:02.679 that everybody the experiences, but you know, also the higher 228 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:05.559 states of consciousness. And it's based upon uh, the law 229 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:08.480 of octaves, you know, the uh, the uh you know, 230 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:11.399 which we see represented and the colors of the rainbow 231 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:15.000 and the notes of the musical scale and uh and 232 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:17.759 and it was really Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson's 233 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:21.519 stroke of genius to apply this to the the evolution 234 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:24.320 of consciousness and to UH and to the and to 235 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:29.799 human development. So so I was thrilled. You know, Rachel 236 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:33.600 and I were experimenting with some altered states of consciousness 237 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:36.440 a few years ago, and it was during that experience 238 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:39.000 that we thought we really should you know, update this 239 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:41.240 you know, this model and uh you know, and and 240 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:44.200 bring it up to date with with modern neuroscience and 241 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:46.799 with all the the new breakthroughs and all the different 242 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:49.799 fields of science that it that it has relevance to. 243 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:52.639 And uh and that was the that was the original 244 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:56.399 inspiration for for how this how this book originally came together. 245 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:02.960 Oh, Robbie or Judith, there was anything you wanted to ask? 246 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:06.639 Yeah, I wanted to ask if you could explain because 247 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:09.720 not all of us are familiar with the eighth circuit 248 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:12.240 model that you're speaking of. If you could just expand 249 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:13.159 on that for us. 250 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:20.759 You want me or Doug or who original who do anyway? 251 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:20.879 One? 252 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:25.879 Well, Well, the eighth circuit model, like I said, it's 253 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.559 it's based on the law of octaves, you know, which 254 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:32.679 is which was originally developed from chemistry. That there's basically 255 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:37.279 eight different chemical groups that that repeat or that break 256 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:42.360 into different types of chemical formations. And we we've people 257 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:44.759 have been able to see that that that same pattern 258 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:49.279 is represented in the colors of the rainbow, red, orange, green, yellow, indigo, violet, 259 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:52.080 and the musical scale door and the fossil lati doo, 260 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:55.559 and it's represented in virtually every every aspect of nature. 261 00:14:55.960 --> 00:14:59.480 And when you apply it to to psychological development, there's 262 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:03.120 you know, there's basically eight different stages and uh, and 263 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:07.039 those are the you know, the you know, the survival stage, 264 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:11.919 the emotional stage, the intellectual stage, the social sexual stage, 265 00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:20.840 the neurosomatic or or esthetic stage, neuroelectrical, neuro neurogenetic, and 266 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.799 then neuroatomic. And they as you escalate up the scale, 267 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:28.480 you there are you know, greater degrees of freedom and 268 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:35.159 uh and greater degrees of of of of century exchange. 269 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:40.879 So so it's it's it's it's really just an incredibly 270 00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:44.960 brilliant model for being able to help understand psycho psychedelic experiences. 271 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:47.399 In particular for me at least, that was why I 272 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:53.759 was so drawn to it, because because the the stages 273 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:55.960 are just so you know, they're so carefully they're just 274 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:58.559 so carefully expressed, and they sort of fit into this 275 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:04.159 wonderful sequence model. But maybe Doug or Rachel can add 276 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:04.440 to that. 277 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:08.840 Yeah, sure, thank you so much, David. That's I guess 278 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:09.399 just an. 279 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:13.679 Absolutely true and another way that we've come to kind 280 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:17.159 of discuss this as well is sort of different types 281 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:20.679 of intelligence that each human has the capacity to tap 282 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:24.240 into or navigate. And so, as David mentioned, we have 283 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:28.000 kind of the bodily intelligence or somatic intelligence. We have 284 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:31.840 emotional intelligence, we have rational intelligence, we have social intelligence, 285 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:36.120 sensory intelligence where we've become consciously able to work with 286 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:40.200 and alter our sensory experiences and expand that meta intelligence 287 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:43.519 where we become more self aware and self conscious around 288 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:47.000 how our thinking patterns and our belief systems, and once 289 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:49.200 we become more aware of that, we have the opportunity 290 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:52.279 to again take conscious control and alter those in a 291 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:55.120 way that might be more efficient for us. And then 292 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:57.799 there's a sort of a collective intelligence where we have 293 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:01.879 a lot of young and archetype type material and epigenetic 294 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:05.440 material that kind of bonds us all as a species. 295 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:07.599 And then there's unitive intelligence, which is a lot of 296 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:13.440 the transpersonal, mystical, non dual ego transcendent states that can 297 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:19.319 come out of the psychedelic states or other practices that 298 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:23.079 lend themselves to these altered states of consciousness or these 299 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:26.160 types of intelligence. So the model works is a great 300 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:29.920 framework to be able to have an informed discussion around 301 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:32.519 that and an understanding of kind of where people are 302 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:37.119 operating or where people may maybe want to do personal 303 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:41.920 work or might be tapping into with their altered states and. 304 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.200 Also to just how we work with the model as 305 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:46.720 quote unquote metaprogrammers. 306 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:47.880 So that would be circuit six. 307 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:52.000 So that's the intentional you know, exploring what are your 308 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:54.799 belief systems, how have you been conditioned throughout your life, 309 00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:59.920 and then being able to question and potentially alter those 310 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.440 intent by choice with intention and trying to like what 311 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:06.359 is your authentic self and or so this also fits 312 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:09.200 in with like this audience as the cultist, where you're 313 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:14.440 trying to decondition your pre programs, so that also can 314 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.640 lends itself to healing, but also the development of these 315 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:22.160 higher senses, so like in terms of you know, astral 316 00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:29.200 projection or psychic phenomena and nusis the experience of the 317 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:32.039 Holy Guardian angel and so on. So that like circuits 318 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:34.599 sists is sort of stepping into the role of a 319 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:38.480 magician and you know, again working with both then the 320 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.799 lower circuits and also kind. 321 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:44.200 Of the access point between the lower and the upper circuits. 322 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:46.400 Yeah, for sure. 323 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:48.599 So a lot of our conversations when it comes to 324 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.799 the use of ritual or ceremonial practices or. 325 00:18:54.279 --> 00:18:55.720 Cult practices. 326 00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:00.279 Kind of falls into and can be looked at from 327 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:04.319 that perspective of meta cognition or meta intelligence as ways 328 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:08.599 to sort of step out of or introduce states where 329 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:11.680 we can become more self aware and more self empowered. 330 00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:15.000 And so that's kind of how all of those fit 331 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:15.559 into this. 332 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:20.200 And Rachel Myo's work is really focused on that meta 333 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:23.559 programming or that meta intelligence, and so it's really interesting 334 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:27.599 to have a conversation with people around how that's been 335 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:33.599 not overtly you used, but has been used within these practices, 336 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:39.680 you know, across culturally for centuries millennia. 337 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:43.680 So I've got a question. 338 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:47.119 I've got a copy of a monograph of Timothy Leary's 339 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:51.519 Exopsychology where he talks about is this the same type 340 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:52.079 of system? 341 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:54.400 It is the same system, it is the same model. 342 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:54.680 Yeah. 343 00:19:55.000 --> 00:20:02.039 Yeah, So Timothy Leary's work exo Psychology was his his 344 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:06.200 I guess, main book that really focused in on this model, 345 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:10.559 and it took the perspective of bio evolution, so it 346 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:12.880 was taking a look at the evolution of consciousness on 347 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:15.079 a species type level. 348 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:17.279 And so yeah, that's exactly. 349 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:20.759 And then Robert Anton Wilson's work with Prometheus Rising brought 350 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:24.720 that more into an individual development in the individual psychology 351 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:28.119 and then Antaro Ali's work brought that into sort of 352 00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:30.880 a more personal ritual type dynamic. 353 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:40.200 All right, anybody else got anything before I go off? 354 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:43.759 I do have a question, and I hope I'm not 355 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:45.480 going off the topic. I did mention I was going 356 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:48.799 to ask this, But in your studies while you were 357 00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:56.960 conducting your research for this, did you also deal with 358 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:01.279 the veterans dealing with PTSD and how does and if 359 00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:03.240 you did, how did it affect them and how did 360 00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:04.960 what kind of results did you get from that? 361 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.599 So, as we mentioned, I work with veterans a fair 362 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:13.319 amount with PTSD and UH and Regil might be able 363 00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:17.480 to speak to her work with MAPS in that. I'm 364 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:21.839 not sure how much you how much detail you want 365 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:23.960 to get into that, but Rachel, do you want to 366 00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:24.920 speak a little bit to that? 367 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:29.759 So well with respect to the eighth circuit model is 368 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:33.920 we haven't done any work personally with the circuit model 369 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:38.640 and veterans, but yeah, so I do have been working with. 370 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:43.119 MAPS for the past. 371 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:46.200 Thirteen years or so working on their MDMA PTSD studies 372 00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:48.880 and to qualify for those studies. 373 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.039 It was like people who had. 374 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:54.640 Like such severe PTSD that basically they tried so many 375 00:21:54.640 --> 00:22:00.400 different modalities and really nothing was working. And so the 376 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:04.720 MDMA trials were amazing because what they found was that 377 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:08.799 like about I can't I forget which phases was which, 378 00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:10.799 but like one of the Phase one I think was 379 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:16.519 about seventy six or so percent of the participants running 380 00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:20.039 to diagnose with PTSD anymore, and somewhere in that range, 381 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:22.799 you know, for Phase two, it was really unfortunate. There's 382 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:25.839 like been a bump in the road to getting MDMA 383 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:30.720 officially legalized retleased for psychedelica SISTE therapy at this point, 384 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:35.559 but there's just so much amazing research that Max had 385 00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:39.680 done that just shows how it's been life changing for 386 00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:43.480 so many people. So hopefully moving forward, you know, they 387 00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:45.599 could figure out all these these little things that the 388 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.480 FDA wants changed, and but. 389 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:50.359 You know, because there's so many more people that it 390 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:52.920 could be helping, But we'll see. 391 00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:56.880 I think it's interesting when you go back and you 392 00:22:56.920 --> 00:22:59.519 look in history in regard to Roman history and the 393 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:02.920 Khaki and how everyone participated in the mysteries. It was 394 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:06.079 the idea of knowing thyself and coming into the you know, 395 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:10.279 and having these certain societal like understanding with the self 396 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.400 and the society and then you move that up into 397 00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:18.799 like Timothy Leary doing the alcoholics and the various addictions 398 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:21.799 with LSD treatment in the prisons, and he had what 399 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:25.240 like an eighty three eighty five percent success rate, you know, 400 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:27.160 when you step back and look at the program as 401 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.160