Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
Speaker 2: What a.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Occult Rejects.
Speaker 3: In this episode, we got a bunch of guests here
Speaker 3: and a very exciting book and stuff to talk about.
Speaker 3: Should be really interesting and maybe out there, and that's
Speaker 3: what exactly what this show's about. So but before we
Speaker 3: introduced these guests, let me introduce the other rejects.
Speaker 1: Judith, what is going on?
Speaker 2: How are you hi? Thank you for having me again.
Speaker 2: I'm Balloon Judas Swanson. Welcome to our guests today. I'm
Speaker 2: looking forward to the topic and you could find me
Speaker 2: on YouTube and on x as the Loon on I'm
Speaker 2: at the Loon fifty and I deal with more of
Speaker 2: meditation and self development. And that's it.
Speaker 4: And thank you again.
Speaker 1: Also, no, thank you. I appreciate you making it again.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: And Robbie March, sir, please let everyone out where they
Speaker 3: can find all your amazing work.
Speaker 1: Please.
Speaker 4: Yes, thanks for having me on. Nick.
Speaker 5: It's always a great time to come hang out. And
Speaker 5: this is a topic that I'm extremely interested in, just
Speaker 5: in regard to consciousness and you know, the medicine for
Speaker 5: the mind, body and soul. I am an artist and illustrator.
Speaker 5: I do art for bands and festivals, different stuff like that.
Speaker 5: I've been in the industry about thirty five years and
Speaker 5: I come on to do this to have fun and
Speaker 5: talk about these different topics, you know, from philosophy to esoterica.
Speaker 5: So yeah, thanks for having me on. And if anybody
Speaker 5: wants to check out my other stuff, you can check
Speaker 5: out my link tree which is link tree r m
Speaker 5: r X and that'll pull up all my miscellaneous links
Speaker 5: and ways that you can get a hold of me.
Speaker 5: So thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1: Nick. Oh, of course, thank you for making it.
Speaker 3: And uh yeah, our guests are the co authors of
Speaker 3: the eight second Ascension. That is a guide to metaprogramming
Speaker 3: the multi dimensional self, and that is written by Douglas
Speaker 3: s Wingate and doctor Rachel Tretsky. And we do have
Speaker 3: doctor J. Brown, David sorry, David J. Brown, who wrote
Speaker 3: the forward. He is joining us and he's wrote twenty
Speaker 3: other books and he has done tons of interesting research,
Speaker 3: and together they've taken the classic Leary and Wilson lineage
Speaker 3: idea and reframed it for a modern reader who's trying
Speaker 3: to do the real work understanding conditioning, navigating altered states,
Speaker 3: integrating big experiences, and if we're being honest, figuring out
Speaker 3: who's actually holding the keyboard inside of our head. So yeah,
Speaker 3: we got the three of them and I will off.
Speaker 3: We'll start off with you, Doug. Please let everybody know
Speaker 3: what's up with you.
Speaker 6: Sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: My name is Doctors are Wingates.
Speaker 6: I mostly work as integrative neuro rehabilitation specialists, so I've
Speaker 6: been working in neurorehabilitation.
Speaker 4: And a number of different realms for the last fifteen
Speaker 4: years or so.
Speaker 6: I'm also a licensed pilocybin facilitator in the state of Oregon,
Speaker 6: so I've had the opportunity to legally facilitate hundreds of
Speaker 6: psilocybin journeys at this point. A lot of those have
Speaker 6: been working with people who have history of neurotrauma. So
Speaker 6: I focus and do research and psychedelicasists in neuro rehabilitation
Speaker 6: in addition to being one of the co founders of
Speaker 6: eight Circuit Ascension alongside doctor Rachel and doctor David ha
Speaker 6: longtime interests in consciousness and self developments and psychonautics.
Speaker 3: So pleasure to be here, No, thank you, this is
Speaker 3: this is awesome. I really appreciate you all coming and
Speaker 3: we got doctor Rachel.
Speaker 1: What is going on?
Speaker 7: Yeah, thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 8: Yes, So, i have a PhD in clinical psychology with
Speaker 8: an emphasis in depth psychology and further training in psychdelicacist
Speaker 8: of therapy and particularly which is currently legal to work
Speaker 8: with KEDMIE assisted therapy. And I've just been really focusing
Speaker 8: the past couple of years as I worked towards licensure,
Speaker 8: just working on these projects, really focusing on the eighth
Speaker 8: Circuit Model and co authoring the book and other projects
Speaker 8: with doctor Doug and David especially excited about. So we're
Speaker 8: working on the workbook currently for the main text, the
Speaker 8: eighth Circuit Ascension Workbook, and then also an oracle deck
Speaker 8: based on the d MT entities and the eight Circuit model.
Speaker 1: Awesome, thank you so much, Doctor J. Brown sah please.
Speaker 9: I'm David J. Brown. I am a writer, author, researcher.
Speaker 9: My background is in behavioral neuroscience. I was a researcher
Speaker 9: at New York University and the University of Southern California
Speaker 9: for a number of years. I did research into neophobia,
Speaker 9: which is the fear of novelty and electrical brain stimulation.
Speaker 9: And I'm also the author of twenty books about the
Speaker 9: evolution of consciousness. I've written books on lucid dreaming. I've
Speaker 9: written books on the d MT entity phenomena. I've written
Speaker 9: books on the interface between science and spirituality. Most recently,
Speaker 9: my book is The Illustrated Field Guide to the d
Speaker 9: MT Entities, which was a springboard for the project that
Speaker 9: I'm working on with Rachel for the past year, which
Speaker 9: is an oracle deck that utilizes the different entities the
Speaker 9: people encounter on their d MT journeys. And I worked
Speaker 9: with maps for a number of years the Multidisciplinary Association
Speaker 9: for Psychedelic Studies and UH And also I worked for
Speaker 9: five years with a British biologist, Rupert Sheldrake, about his
Speaker 9: research into the U the unexplained powers of animals, or
Speaker 9: the psychic power of animals.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Nice.
Speaker 3: I've tried to get that guy on the show so
Speaker 3: many times. He's told me no, and I keep trying.
Speaker 3: Every six months. He's gonna get tired of here.
Speaker 9: Yeah, he's he's very busy.
Speaker 3: No, that's what he tells me. I honestly believe that's
Speaker 3: the truth. All think he's just blowing me off. I
Speaker 3: think he's honestly busy. That is awesome, man, I mean
Speaker 3: some things I think I would like to have you
Speaker 3: back on the show for some other topics you already mentioned.
Speaker 3: Great stuff, all right, So I guess I don't know,
Speaker 3: like I get maybe we'll go one at a time
Speaker 3: or something. But like I guess, the Doug like, what
Speaker 3: was it that?
Speaker 1: What did you like? How did you find yourself getting
Speaker 1: into this?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I originally got into my consciousness studies early early on,
Speaker 6: so interested uh introduced to Taoism and the Dada ching
Speaker 6: in like thirteen fourteen, and then around age seventeen or so,
Speaker 6: ran across Robert Anton Wilson in Palell's books here in Portland.
Speaker 6: Just happened to run across looking through the metax metaphysics section,
Speaker 6: and Prometheus Rising was.
Speaker 4: In there and just pulled me in.
Speaker 6: I thumbed through it and got sucked in ever since
Speaker 6: and read through that a number of times. And then
Speaker 6: I was very fortunate before Bob's passing to be involved
Speaker 6: in his Maybe Logic Academy when he started teaching online,
Speaker 6: so had the opportunity to go through and work through
Speaker 6: the eighth circuit model with Robert Anton Wilson which was
Speaker 6: a huge blessing and growth for me for sure, And
Speaker 6: then a couple of years later similar offering from Mansaro
Speaker 6: Ali based on the eighth circuit model as well through
Speaker 6: the Maybe Logic Academy, and then ultimately outside of that,
Speaker 6: I've done that training with him a few times before
Speaker 6: his passing. So it's been a long journey working with
Speaker 6: this kind of material and always foundationally just super interested
Speaker 6: in kind of the range of human experience or you know,
Speaker 6: how broad that experience can be and how we can
Speaker 6: continue to broaden it and better ourselves.
Speaker 1: Thank you and doctor Rachel.
Speaker 8: Yeah, so around the early two thousands, i'd say it
Speaker 8: was the first time I came across the eighth circuit model.
Speaker 7: But also similar to.
Speaker 8: Doug, early teening years, was really interested in consciousness studies
Speaker 8: and fell down the verbial rabbit hole, started experimenting with
Speaker 8: psychedelics and reading all kinds of spiritual literature, practicing all
Speaker 8: kinds of stuff. Eight circuit model is such a great
Speaker 8: tool for really organizing and understanding those experiences and different ideas. Also,
Speaker 8: so similar to Doug, I was able to take a
Speaker 8: course with Antro Ali when he had his eighth circuit
Speaker 8: brain course, so just working in the field of psychedelics, though,
Speaker 8: I felt like this was just such an important tool
Speaker 8: that kind of because of Mary's reputation just to kind
Speaker 8: of fell into the fringes and really wanted to bring
Speaker 8: it out to the mainstream because I found it so
Speaker 8: personally helpful and.
Speaker 7: This is great framework to be could be used and
Speaker 7: help so many people.
Speaker 1: Thank you appreciate that. And David, please.
Speaker 9: Let's see how did I get involved in this. I
Speaker 9: guess I've been interested in dreams and altered states of
Speaker 9: consciousness ever since I was a child, really, and I
Speaker 9: had my first LSD trip when I was sixteen years old,
Speaker 9: and a few days later had my first my first
Speaker 9: lucid dream spontaneously. And it was like right around that
Speaker 9: time when I was sixteen and tripping and first exploring
Speaker 9: these psychedelic states of consciousness that I came across Robert
Speaker 9: Anton Wilson's book Trigger and Uh. And that book really
Speaker 9: was a cosmic trigger for me. I mean, it's pretty
Speaker 9: much my my It mapped out my whole life. You
Speaker 9: know that that book. Almost all the people that I've
Speaker 9: interviewed over the years and people I've worked with or
Speaker 9: people that I discovered through through reading that book, and
Speaker 9: it sort of started me on this quest. That's how
Speaker 9: I got involved in UH neuroscience research. And and I
Speaker 9: was very fortunate when I was when I was in
Speaker 9: my mid twenties, I wrote a science fiction novel called
Speaker 9: called Brainchild. And when I when I when I was
Speaker 9: still in the process of writing the book and I
Speaker 9: had just found a publisher, I went to a lecture
Speaker 9: that Robert Anton Wilson was giving in Santa Cruz and
Speaker 9: waited for him. After the lectures, I wanted to ask
Speaker 9: him if he could possibly consider writing a blurb for
Speaker 9: the back cover of the book. And and I, you know,
Speaker 9: I got to work out my courage. I was all starstruck.
Speaker 9: And I went up to meet him and I said,
Speaker 9: you know, I just finished this science fiction novel and
Speaker 9: I was wondering if maybe you could possibly write a
Speaker 9: you know, a little blurb for the back cover. And
Speaker 9: he did not seem very enthusiastic. He kind of because
Speaker 9: if I was like one hundredth person that day who
Speaker 9: asked him for a back cover blurb, and I was
Speaker 9: feeling kind of embarrassed. But he said, you know, just
Speaker 9: just mail it to me. And he gave me an
Speaker 9: address to mail it to, and I so I had
Speaker 9: my publisher. It was called New Falcon at the time.
Speaker 9: What are they called now, Original Falcon. They keep changing
Speaker 9: their name, but they were called New Falcon at the time,
Speaker 9: and they and they mailed my manuscript to Bob, and
Speaker 9: I was thrilled to discover that he wrote an eleven
Speaker 9: page introduction to the book, not just a back over blur.
Speaker 9: But you know, he was my he was my hero,
Speaker 9: and having him do this was just, you know, it
Speaker 9: was just absolutely one of the most magnificent things that's
Speaker 9: happened in my life. And and as a result of that,
Speaker 9: I went to go visit him when he was living
Speaker 9: in Los Angeles, and he invited me to come to
Speaker 9: his weekly gatherings he did, you know, sort of book
Speaker 9: readings and discussion groups every week about his books, about
Speaker 9: other people's books like James Joyce, and we would sometimes
Speaker 9: watch movies and talk about them. And I went to
Speaker 9: Bob's meetings once a week for about twenty years. So
Speaker 9: he became a very close friend of mine, and I
Speaker 9: was really fortunate to be able to spend a lot
Speaker 9: of time talking to Bob about philosophical ideas and creativity
Speaker 9: and politics and consciousness expansion and all those wonderful things.
Speaker 9: And I think he's truly one of the greatest geniuses
Speaker 9: that our speeches has produced. So it was through him
Speaker 9: that I discovered the eighth circuit model of the brain,
Speaker 9: of course, and the eighth circuit model, I think is just,
Speaker 9: you know, it's just the best psychologist psychological model to
Speaker 9: explain not only you know, the mundane states of consciousness
Speaker 9: that everybody the experiences, but you know, also the higher
Speaker 9: states of consciousness. And it's based upon uh, the law
Speaker 9: of octaves, you know, the uh, the uh you know,
Speaker 9: which we see represented and the colors of the rainbow
Speaker 9: and the notes of the musical scale and uh and
Speaker 9: and it was really Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson's
Speaker 9: stroke of genius to apply this to the the evolution
Speaker 9: of consciousness and to UH and to the and to
Speaker 9: human development. So so I was thrilled. You know, Rachel
Speaker 9: and I were experimenting with some altered states of consciousness
Speaker 9: a few years ago, and it was during that experience
Speaker 9: that we thought we really should you know, update this
Speaker 9: you know, this model and uh you know, and and
Speaker 9: bring it up to date with with modern neuroscience and
Speaker 9: with all the the new breakthroughs and all the different
Speaker 9: fields of science that it that it has relevance to.
Speaker 9: And uh and that was the that was the original
Speaker 9: inspiration for for how this how this book originally came together.
Speaker 1: Oh, Robbie or Judith, there was anything you wanted to ask?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to ask if you could explain because
Speaker 2: not all of us are familiar with the eighth circuit
Speaker 2: model that you're speaking of. If you could just expand
Speaker 2: on that for us.
Speaker 9: You want me or Doug or who original who do anyway?
Speaker 6: One?
Speaker 9: Well, Well, the eighth circuit model, like I said, it's
Speaker 9: it's based on the law of octaves, you know, which
Speaker 9: is which was originally developed from chemistry. That there's basically
Speaker 9: eight different chemical groups that that repeat or that break
Speaker 9: into different types of chemical formations. And we we've people
Speaker 9: have been able to see that that that same pattern
Speaker 9: is represented in the colors of the rainbow, red, orange, green, yellow, indigo, violet,
Speaker 9: and the musical scale door and the fossil lati doo,
Speaker 9: and it's represented in virtually every every aspect of nature.
Speaker 9: And when you apply it to to psychological development, there's
Speaker 9: you know, there's basically eight different stages and uh, and
Speaker 9: those are the you know, the you know, the survival stage,
Speaker 9: the emotional stage, the intellectual stage, the social sexual stage,
Speaker 9: the neurosomatic or or esthetic stage, neuroelectrical, neuro neurogenetic, and
Speaker 9: then neuroatomic. And they as you escalate up the scale,
Speaker 9: you there are you know, greater degrees of freedom and
Speaker 9: uh and greater degrees of of of of century exchange.
Speaker 9: So so it's it's it's it's really just an incredibly
Speaker 9: brilliant model for being able to help understand psycho psychedelic experiences.
Speaker 9: In particular for me at least, that was why I
Speaker 9: was so drawn to it, because because the the stages
Speaker 9: are just so you know, they're so carefully they're just
Speaker 9: so carefully expressed, and they sort of fit into this
Speaker 9: wonderful sequence model. But maybe Doug or Rachel can add
Speaker 9: to that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, thank you so much, David. That's I guess
Speaker 4: just an.
Speaker 6: Absolutely true and another way that we've come to kind
Speaker 6: of discuss this as well is sort of different types
Speaker 6: of intelligence that each human has the capacity to tap
Speaker 6: into or navigate. And so, as David mentioned, we have
Speaker 6: kind of the bodily intelligence or somatic intelligence. We have
Speaker 6: emotional intelligence, we have rational intelligence, we have social intelligence,
Speaker 6: sensory intelligence where we've become consciously able to work with
Speaker 6: and alter our sensory experiences and expand that meta intelligence
Speaker 6: where we become more self aware and self conscious around
Speaker 6: how our thinking patterns and our belief systems, and once
Speaker 6: we become more aware of that, we have the opportunity
Speaker 6: to again take conscious control and alter those in a
Speaker 6: way that might be more efficient for us. And then
Speaker 6: there's a sort of a collective intelligence where we have
Speaker 6: a lot of young and archetype type material and epigenetic
Speaker 6: material that kind of bonds us all as a species.
Speaker 6: And then there's unitive intelligence, which is a lot of
Speaker 6: the transpersonal, mystical, non dual ego transcendent states that can
Speaker 6: come out of the psychedelic states or other practices that
Speaker 6: lend themselves to these altered states of consciousness or these
Speaker 6: types of intelligence. So the model works is a great
Speaker 6: framework to be able to have an informed discussion around
Speaker 6: that and an understanding of kind of where people are
Speaker 6: operating or where people may maybe want to do personal
Speaker 6: work or might be tapping into with their altered states and.
Speaker 8: Also to just how we work with the model as
Speaker 8: quote unquote metaprogrammers.
Speaker 7: So that would be circuit six.
Speaker 8: So that's the intentional you know, exploring what are your
Speaker 8: belief systems, how have you been conditioned throughout your life,
Speaker 8: and then being able to question and potentially alter those
Speaker 8: intent by choice with intention and trying to like what
Speaker 8: is your authentic self and or so this also fits
Speaker 8: in with like this audience as the cultist, where you're
Speaker 8: trying to decondition your pre programs, so that also can
Speaker 8: lends itself to healing, but also the development of these
Speaker 8: higher senses, so like in terms of you know, astral
Speaker 8: projection or psychic phenomena and nusis the experience of the
Speaker 8: Holy Guardian angel and so on. So that like circuits
Speaker 8: sists is sort of stepping into the role of a
Speaker 8: magician and you know, again working with both then the
Speaker 8: lower circuits and also kind.
Speaker 7: Of the access point between the lower and the upper circuits.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 6: So a lot of our conversations when it comes to
Speaker 6: the use of ritual or ceremonial practices or.
Speaker 4: Cult practices.
Speaker 6: Kind of falls into and can be looked at from
Speaker 6: that perspective of meta cognition or meta intelligence as ways
Speaker 6: to sort of step out of or introduce states where
Speaker 6: we can become more self aware and more self empowered.
Speaker 4: And so that's kind of how all of those fit
Speaker 4: into this.
Speaker 6: And Rachel Myo's work is really focused on that meta
Speaker 6: programming or that meta intelligence, and so it's really interesting
Speaker 6: to have a conversation with people around how that's been
Speaker 6: not overtly you used, but has been used within these practices,
Speaker 6: you know, across culturally for centuries millennia.
Speaker 4: So I've got a question.
Speaker 5: I've got a copy of a monograph of Timothy Leary's
Speaker 5: Exopsychology where he talks about is this the same type
Speaker 5: of system?
Speaker 4: It is the same system, it is the same model.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So Timothy Leary's work exo Psychology was his his
Speaker 6: I guess, main book that really focused in on this model,
Speaker 6: and it took the perspective of bio evolution, so it
Speaker 6: was taking a look at the evolution of consciousness on
Speaker 6: a species type level.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, that's exactly.
Speaker 6: And then Robert Anton Wilson's work with Prometheus Rising brought
Speaker 6: that more into an individual development in the individual psychology
Speaker 6: and then Antaro Ali's work brought that into sort of
Speaker 6: a more personal ritual type dynamic.
Speaker 1: All right, anybody else got anything before I go off?
Speaker 2: I do have a question, and I hope I'm not
Speaker 2: going off the topic. I did mention I was going
Speaker 2: to ask this, But in your studies while you were
Speaker 2: conducting your research for this, did you also deal with
Speaker 2: the veterans dealing with PTSD and how does and if
Speaker 2: you did, how did it affect them and how did
Speaker 2: what kind of results did you get from that?
Speaker 6: So, as we mentioned, I work with veterans a fair
Speaker 6: amount with PTSD and UH and Regil might be able
Speaker 6: to speak to her work with MAPS in that. I'm
Speaker 6: not sure how much you how much detail you want
Speaker 6: to get into that, but Rachel, do you want to
Speaker 6: speak a little bit to that?
Speaker 8: So well with respect to the eighth circuit model is
Speaker 8: we haven't done any work personally with the circuit model
Speaker 8: and veterans, but yeah, so I do have been working with.
Speaker 7: MAPS for the past.
Speaker 8: Thirteen years or so working on their MDMA PTSD studies
Speaker 8: and to qualify for those studies.
Speaker 7: It was like people who had.
Speaker 8: Like such severe PTSD that basically they tried so many
Speaker 8: different modalities and really nothing was working. And so the
Speaker 8: MDMA trials were amazing because what they found was that
Speaker 8: like about I can't I forget which phases was which,
Speaker 8: but like one of the Phase one I think was
Speaker 8: about seventy six or so percent of the participants running
Speaker 8: to diagnose with PTSD anymore, and somewhere in that range,
Speaker 8: you know, for Phase two, it was really unfortunate. There's
Speaker 8: like been a bump in the road to getting MDMA
Speaker 8: officially legalized retleased for psychedelica SISTE therapy at this point,
Speaker 8: but there's just so much amazing research that Max had
Speaker 8: done that just shows how it's been life changing for
Speaker 8: so many people. So hopefully moving forward, you know, they
Speaker 8: could figure out all these these little things that the
Speaker 8: FDA wants changed, and but.
Speaker 7: You know, because there's so many more people that it
Speaker 7: could be helping, But we'll see.
Speaker 5: I think it's interesting when you go back and you
Speaker 5: look in history in regard to Roman history and the
Speaker 5: Khaki and how everyone participated in the mysteries. It was
Speaker 5: the idea of knowing thyself and coming into the you know,
Speaker 5: and having these certain societal like understanding with the self
Speaker 5: and the society and then you move that up into
Speaker 5: like Timothy Leary doing the alcoholics and the various addictions
Speaker 5: with LSD treatment in the prisons, and he had what
Speaker 5: like an eighty three eighty five percent success rate, you know,
Speaker 5: when you step back and look at the program as
Speaker 5: a whole. So I think there's a lot of fundamental
Speaker 5: sound value in the use of these substances for the
Speaker 5: purpose of helping to help people step back from themselves
Speaker 5: and be able to see things in a larger perspective
Speaker 5: so that they're not so directly tied in with the
Speaker 5: experience of the self in certain ways, if you know
Speaker 5: what I mean.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Rachel's very familiar with it. So you remember
Speaker 4: what the percentage was.
Speaker 7: I want to say it was about two thirds.
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, I thought it was eighty percent.
Speaker 4: It was high. Yeah, it was very impressive.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Mention, I'm sorry you mentioned FDA.
Speaker 2: Is there uh restraints with your progress to make adjustments?
Speaker 8: So it's it's maps they've been doing these studies for.
Speaker 8: When did they start, David.
Speaker 9: Do you know in this maybe around in two thousand
Speaker 9: and five or two thousand and seven, somewhere around there,
Speaker 9: I think was the beginning of the m d M
Speaker 9: A PTSD studies. Yeah, but they.
Speaker 8: Got you know, and at one point, it was in
Speaker 8: twenty seventeen, they got fast tracked because they it was
Speaker 8: just such compelling evidence that you know, this was going
Speaker 8: to be this breakthrough treatment, and so phase three was
Speaker 8: put on this fast track for approval.
Speaker 7: And then it's just I guess there's just these you know, the.
Speaker 8: Way that they went about the study design where it
Speaker 8: was considered it wasn't as like scientifically repeatable because it's
Speaker 8: like a very non directive approach. So just things that
Speaker 8: they have to take in terms of the therapy itself,
Speaker 8: because the FDA tends to deal with food and drug administration, right,
Speaker 8: but now you're bringing in therapy and so and then
Speaker 8: there were some ethical things that they had concerns about.
Speaker 8: So there's all these like little things that it's not
Speaker 8: about the efficacy of the treatment itself, but just complying
Speaker 8: with certain regulatory standards that they want to see. Unfortunately
Speaker 8: that impedes other people outside of these studies from getting
Speaker 8: this treatment, but it is extremely promising and hopefully we
Speaker 8: can move forward with that.
Speaker 6: And we're sitting at a pretty similar place with psilocybin
Speaker 6: right now. That's it's it's going through a couple different
Speaker 6: Phase three trials and there's expectation and talk about that
Speaker 6: going before the FDA for consideration for rescheduling within as
Speaker 6: soon as the next six months or a year or
Speaker 6: something like that. That's mostly focused on depression, and then
Speaker 6: you know, if that goes forward, and it's similar to
Speaker 6: with the MDMA, it's been fast tracked, it's been considered
Speaker 6: a breakthrough therapy in both of the phase three trials
Speaker 6: that are looking at getting finished up pretty quickly. Then
Speaker 6: that would certainly open it up to more research, more access,
Speaker 6: and being able to focus on PTSD as well, which
Speaker 6: there's ample preliminary research showing that, and then hopefully getting
Speaker 6: more funding toward specific populations like working with veterans. But
Speaker 6: it's kind of one of those one step at a
Speaker 6: time type things, especially when it comes to the federal level,
Speaker 6: the FDA.
Speaker 8: Well, and like you said, the federal level, but also
Speaker 8: there's state different states. Obviously in Oregon, so solicide he
Speaker 8: legally facilitates psilocybin journeys for folks, and then New Jersey,
Speaker 8: I believe wants to legalize psilocybin for therapeutic purposes. I
Speaker 8: think Texas was it that who's legalized BOGA.
Speaker 9: I think that New Jersey just did. Actually, I think
Speaker 9: they just did.
Speaker 5: Yeah, in Colorado and Michigan as well.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 6: New Mexico is also best legislation, So you know, it's
Speaker 6: kind of like state by state.
Speaker 4: I've been really fortunate here in Oregon.
Speaker 6: We've been able to do legal facilitation for about three
Speaker 6: years and it's been incredible. We've had people fly in
Speaker 6: from all over the country or all over the world
Speaker 6: internationally to come in and do journeys because it's one
Speaker 6: of the few places that you can legally access it
Speaker 6: in a.
Speaker 4: You know, in a true framework of structure of support.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I call reject field trip.
Speaker 1: Right then come on over, Oh man, that'd be fucking
Speaker 1: whild want to ask since.
Speaker 3: What is a You might have mentioned it maybe within
Speaker 3: explaining certain things, but I would just like to ask
Speaker 3: us a question.
Speaker 1: What is a circuit? In practical terms?
Speaker 4: A circuit is so originally.
Speaker 6: It was referred to as the eighth circuit model, and
Speaker 6: then over the years as authors and people who have
Speaker 6: been working with the material, it's kind of used different
Speaker 6: terminology as well. So it's been called the eight circuit model,
Speaker 6: has been called eight dimensions of mind. We've called it
Speaker 6: the eight dimensions of self or eight dimensions of intelligence,
Speaker 6: and so circuit Originally, I think, well, David might be
Speaker 6: able to correct me here, but that was more of
Speaker 6: Timothy Leary's original verbision in terms of brain circuitry. So,
Speaker 6: you know, a lot of the conversation around the time
Speaker 6: that this was originally coming out was there's a big
Speaker 6: boom in understanding of the human brain and preliminary neuroscience,
Speaker 6: and so there were a lot of metaphors flying around
Speaker 6: correlating or talking about the brain as.
Speaker 4: Sort of a biocomputer.
Speaker 6: You know John Lily's work Metaprogramming the bio the human biocomputer,
Speaker 6: So I think he was born out of that, and
Speaker 6: I find it really interesting working in neuroscience myself, is
Speaker 6: that we've kind of almost come around full circle where
Speaker 6: you know, we have an understanding that it's not exactly
Speaker 6: operating the way that it used to be looked at
Speaker 6: like a like a computer, but there are circuits, or
Speaker 6: there are large scale brain networks that are operating, and
Speaker 6: many of these have to do with different neurotransmitter tracks
Speaker 6: and things like that. And so it's it's kind of
Speaker 6: like come back into the conversation in terms of neural circuitry.
Speaker 6: But David, would you say that's correct.
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's that sounds right. I mean in a circuit,
Speaker 9: I mean he's basically on an electric circuit, you know,
Speaker 9: like in an electrical system. It's like you know, a
Speaker 9: looping you know, a looping electrical flow of current. And
Speaker 9: he was trying basically to Tim was trying to use
Speaker 9: the latest technology, which you know basically was the computer
Speaker 9: as a metaphor. John the Lee was doing the same
Speaker 9: thing with the programming and metaprogramming the human biocomputer. There's
Speaker 9: just there's been kind of throughout the you know, the
Speaker 9: evolution of psychology is you know, the latest technology is
Speaker 9: sort of always what they based the brain or the
Speaker 9: mind on. You know, Originally if you look in old
Speaker 9: psychology textbooks, you know when I was when I was
Speaker 9: a kid, I remember there was like, you know, they
Speaker 9: use the telephone model, like you know, telephone operating system,
Speaker 9: and you know before that they use the kind of
Speaker 9: like Freud used like the steam engine as as as
Speaker 9: the metaphor for the how the brain and the mind work.
Speaker 9: So you know, that was the latest was the was
Speaker 9: the computer, and then kind of virtual reality, but but
Speaker 9: it was it was sort of an you know, sort
Speaker 9: of an attempt to use the latest technology technology as
Speaker 9: a as a metaphor for understanding the most the most
Speaker 9: complex system that we know, the brain, which is really
Speaker 9: be you know, it's way more complex than a computer
Speaker 9: and whatever. Our next technology that we develop will probably
Speaker 9: use that as a metaphor, because the brain is not
Speaker 9: not a computer, but it functions in many ways like
Speaker 9: a computer, if you if you want to use that metaphor.
Speaker 8: I've actually already seen an article recently referencing AI as
Speaker 8: being a new model, like, oh, this is refinding this
Speaker 8: is how the brain works.
Speaker 10: So yeah, what do you think is the biggest like
Speaker 10: the biggest misconception people have about psychedelic therapy first versus
Speaker 10: psychedelic coaching integration.
Speaker 9: I think the biggest misconception is that psychedelics are fun
Speaker 9: when it's it's really a lot of work, you know,
Speaker 9: and it's not always fun, and it's it's soft and
Speaker 9: scary and you have to I mean, it certainly can
Speaker 9: be fun, you know, but but I think that's a
Speaker 9: misconception that's sort of in the public mind is that
Speaker 9: people use these things just for fun and recreation. When
Speaker 9: you when you use it for therapy, it's really you know,
Speaker 9: it's confronting your the darkest parts of yourself and a
Speaker 9: lot of the things that you didn't know were there.
Speaker 9: So it's, uh, it's you know, it's it's definitely not
Speaker 9: necessarily always fun.
Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely echo that I've found that to be a
Speaker 6: semi common comment after people come in and do sessions
Speaker 6: with us, is that they were expecting lots of you know,
Speaker 6: giggle fests and rainbows, and.
Speaker 4: It's not always that.
Speaker 6: I've definitely some people do have those experiences and that's
Speaker 6: wonderful and you know, it's full, full bliss the entire time.
Speaker 6: And then often it's a lot of deep, hard work
Speaker 6: to be that they're working through, you know, bits of
Speaker 6: their psyche, parts of themselves that they they don't or
Speaker 6: haven't given attention to for a variety of different reasons.
Speaker 6: And so that's it's definitely a fairly common comment that
Speaker 6: we'll get that it's a lot of work.
Speaker 5: This kind of gets into the idea of the chapel
Speaker 5: perilous mm hmm in regard to you know, going through
Speaker 5: that that phase of you know, the distinction between knowing
Speaker 5: and insanity. Yeah, yeah, And if you're not familiar with
Speaker 5: the idea of chapel perilous, Chapel perilous is a descriptor
Speaker 5: that's used in the circuit model language. I think Bob
Speaker 5: used it first, and David, I know that you can
Speaker 5: probably speak to the story of why he's used that,
Speaker 5: but I mean it's something that's had different terms in
Speaker 5: different practices.
Speaker 6: Over and over again as people are going through this
Speaker 6: sort of path of self awareness or self growth, and
Speaker 6: so you know, the dark Knight of the soul crossing,
Speaker 6: the abyss, the Negredo stage, all of these things. Chapel
Speaker 6: perailyss is kind of another term that's used to speak
Speaker 6: to this period of time where there can be significant
Speaker 6: destabilization or de identification with self. And so it can
Speaker 6: be a really difficult phase to navigate when you start
Speaker 6: breaking out of some of the rigid thought patterns that
Speaker 6: we've become so used to in navigating the world and
Speaker 6: opening our perspective to much larger concepts beyond just our
Speaker 6: individual self or beyond the personal ego. And so yeah,
Speaker 6: that's that can be a big part of the journey
Speaker 6: for sure.
Speaker 9: I could just say add that the chapel peralyst it's
Speaker 9: a term that comes from King Arthur and the Knights
Speaker 9: at the Roundtable, and the chapel perilliss was what you
Speaker 9: enter when you're sort of going through an initiation into
Speaker 9: a into a into a higher order, and it was
Speaker 9: you know, it was Robert Anston Wilson's I mean strokempunions
Speaker 9: to use that term to describe, you know, the dark
Speaker 9: night of the soul or these periods of chaos between
Speaker 9: you know, one level of understanding and a higher level,
Speaker 9: and it's sort of I think it's a very noble
Speaker 9: and romantic way of saying, you know that you're fucking
Speaker 9: going crazy and you don't know what the hell is
Speaker 9: going on, but you would calling a chapel perils gives
Speaker 9: it this kind of, you know, noble kind of kind
Speaker 9: of air to it.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: And also Stetisov growth and a lot of his research
Speaker 6: with psychedelics, he talked about spiritual emergencies and he has
Speaker 6: a whole book on spiritual emergencies and that would also
Speaker 6: very well fit into a lot of what's going on there.
Speaker 11: Dave, I have any other questions kind of a question
Speaker 11: because it sounds like the book itself is guiding you
Speaker 11: through this, but do you recommend having a certified therapist
Speaker 11: go through this with you or can you do it
Speaker 11: on your own as a solo thing.
Speaker 6: So we've written the material with different audiences in mind,
Speaker 6: and it's material that a lot of individuals have navigated.
Speaker 4: On their own as they're so motivated.
Speaker 6: Some of the earlier works, Prometheus Rising has a number
Speaker 6: of exercises that you work with throughout the book geared
Speaker 6: toward working.
Speaker 4: With that as an individual.
Speaker 6: So if you're a self motivated psychoonod and really interested
Speaker 6: in your own personal journey, it's.
Speaker 4: Accessible in that way.
Speaker 6: And the workbook that we're finishing up is intended to
Speaker 6: be much more geared toward that, but also a compliment
Speaker 6: where you may be working with certified practitioners professional therapists
Speaker 6: who are familiar with the model and can be helpful
Speaker 6: guide posts or be in a position to kind of
Speaker 6: figure out where might be the best starting point or
Speaker 6: where to focus. And so that can be an incredible
Speaker 6: resource to have a professional who's first in that. But
Speaker 6: we know that there are a lot of psychondaduts out
Speaker 6: there that do their own self exploration, and we also
Speaker 6: wanted to allow that material to be accessible to that
Speaker 6: audience too.
Speaker 1: Thank you all right.
Speaker 3: Questions when people come out of like of a big
Speaker 3: session with like cosmic downloads or.
Speaker 1: Whatever, they cool, what's uh, what's your process.
Speaker 3: For grounding it without dismissing it without dismissing it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so at least I can I can speak to
Speaker 6: the way that I work with When people have these
Speaker 6: those type of situations where they have the big cosmic
Speaker 6: downloads or large epiphanies, they can sometimes be destabilized and
Speaker 6: or just really hard to.
Speaker 4: To process. They're there in the moments, And so.
Speaker 6: Something that I emphasize for a lot of people is
Speaker 6: that you don't need to make meaning of it right away.
Speaker 6: It's okay to sit with that material and see what
Speaker 6: grows out of it. You can consider that experience a
Speaker 6: catalyst or planting of a seed that then, if you
Speaker 6: give it the right environment, has the opportunity to continue
Speaker 6: to grow and expand. And so when I'm working with somebody,
Speaker 6: we wanted to kind of figure out how much of
Speaker 6: that we want to leave open and how much grounding
Speaker 6: might be really helpful if they are feeling very stabilized,
Speaker 6: if they're having a trouble sort of finding themselves again
Speaker 6: or finding a grounding. So we take into account how
Speaker 6: much we want to keep open and keep kind of
Speaker 6: soft boundaries around, so there are ways to work with that.
Speaker 6: You know, if somebody has a big cosmic download, familial
Speaker 6: or transgenerational trauma, or entity encounters or something like that,
Speaker 6: that's where we would bring in exercises or integration practices
Speaker 6: that are much more open in terms of the way
Speaker 6: that they work. So it would be something like art
Speaker 6: based or archetypal type integration. We do collage making or
Speaker 6: music making and things like that as a way to
Speaker 6: sort of explore that territory without locking it into defined meaning.
Speaker 6: At the same time, if somebody is feeling really destabilized
Speaker 6: and like disattached from their body, they're having a hard
Speaker 6: time bringing themselves back in the body, then we would
Speaker 6: take into consideration other parts of the eighth circuit model
Speaker 6: where we would focus on, like circuit one, the somatic experience,
Speaker 6: the somatic intelligence, and do exercises they really focus on
Speaker 6: increasing introceptions, so an awareness around your body and what's
Speaker 6: going on, so breathing, paying attention to your heart, rate
Speaker 6: doing things that literally ground you, so going out and
Speaker 6: doing horticulture therapy or gardening, or just touching the ground,
Speaker 6: working with water.
Speaker 4: If somebody has a difficult.
Speaker 6: Time in putting their experience into words, then you can
Speaker 6: focus more on journaling and what would be considered circuit
Speaker 6: three material. Whereas if there's more of an emotional dysregulation
Speaker 6: or a hard time knowing how you feel about the
Speaker 6: experience or attaching or processing emotions through that, then you
Speaker 6: can focus more on what would be considered circuit to
Speaker 6: material focused on the emotional intelligence.
Speaker 4: So it's one of.
Speaker 6: Those things that really can be different for everybody depending
Speaker 6: on where they where they're at, and what's going to
Speaker 6: be most supportive for them to work through that process in.
Speaker 4: A meaningful way without.
Speaker 6: Meaning making too quickly and pulling somebody out of the
Speaker 6: potency of that experience.
Speaker 3: Is that something that you've come across, well, is that
Speaker 3: something you come across where sometimes people after these experiences
Speaker 3: might feel like they're kind of stuck in between both,
Speaker 3: you know, or like feel like they're not like I
Speaker 3: think you kind of say to yourself, like they're almost
Speaker 3: like kind of not fully back.
Speaker 8: Yet, like you know, we so in general with psychedelic work,
Speaker 8: there's like preparation the experience and then integration.
Speaker 7: And in that kind of.
Speaker 8: Post session prior to integration, we really emphasize on the
Speaker 8: book we face and there's just it's that sort of
Speaker 8: like you're coming back out of this experience. You potentially
Speaker 8: have these downloads and maybe some realizations things you want
Speaker 8: to work on, an integration to apply. But if you
Speaker 8: jump back out in the world, it's going to kind
Speaker 8: of be jarring potentially and jostle you, and you're going
Speaker 8: to lose that focus. Like a like when you have
Speaker 8: a dream, if you write it down, sometimes it's like
Speaker 8: five minutes later even you're just like, oh, what was
Speaker 8: that and you forget it.
Speaker 7: So it's so important.
Speaker 8: To take that time and that space to kind of
Speaker 8: stay with the experience to kind of you know, even
Speaker 8: if it was a negative experience, you know it felt
Speaker 8: like a very adverse or challenging experience, you know, it
Speaker 8: could be a really fertile ground for healing and exploration,
Speaker 8: and so it's so important to have that you know,
Speaker 8: that that that space to really explore those insights. And
Speaker 8: as Doug said, there's different activities that one can do
Speaker 8: to to further that exploration as you're bringing that into
Speaker 8: your your real life, grounding that into your your quote
Speaker 8: unquote like concess is reality experience. So I'm sorry, do
Speaker 8: you want to continue with that?
Speaker 6: Well, I'll just say that that some of that work
Speaker 6: is also self driven when I'm working with people in
Speaker 6: their integration of those experiences. So we have an integration
Speaker 6: packet then we send out afterwhere that has a variety
Speaker 6: of different approaches and and some of it is journaling
Speaker 6: exercises as some of it is art based, some of
Speaker 6: it is movement based, and then you know one's own intelligence,
Speaker 6: you are sometimes intuitively drawn to a particular exercise and
Speaker 6: that could be really helpful. So we do leave it
Speaker 6: open as well, and you know, a lot of the
Speaker 6: time we're kind of drawn to the different practices that
Speaker 6: are going to be most supportive to us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, anybody have any anything else you want to use?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: I was I was wondering in regard to these different
Speaker 5: separated substrates of the experience that you go through, are
Speaker 5: these in these be correlated with brain weighs, states that
Speaker 5: are specific like transcendental meditation or kind of things that
Speaker 5: we can see, like you were talking about how it
Speaker 5: overlays with frequency and color and you know, sound and
Speaker 5: even getting into the seven chakras and the Earth itself
Speaker 5: and the seven continent. I mean, you just look at
Speaker 5: this reality is made up of sevens. So I'm just wondering,
Speaker 5: is there a direct correlation between brain wave states and
Speaker 5: and these experienced psychological states.
Speaker 4: That you that you go through. It's definitely something that
Speaker 4: we explore in the book.
Speaker 6: In every section, as we're discussing a circuit, we discuss
Speaker 6: neurobiological correlates and and where some of the research is
Speaker 6: around that, where there's some of the brain research is,
Speaker 6: so it becomes particularly interesting. You know, it's pretty well
Speaker 6: established with the first four circuits. The first four ciccret
Speaker 6: circuits are we considered the terrestrial circuits or or the
Speaker 6: mundane circuits of developmental psychology. They overlap very well with
Speaker 6: standard models of developmental psychology, and so they pretty much
Speaker 6: pinned down a lot of the neurobiology as we grow
Speaker 6: and evolve into adulthood over time. And that's that's definitely
Speaker 6: in the book. We talk about that for sure, how
Speaker 6: different hormone systems come into play during different stages of developments.
Speaker 4: Or critical windows of development.
Speaker 6: But it gets really interesting when we start talking about
Speaker 6: the upper four circuits, which are more of the trans
Speaker 6: personal states, and so like circuit five that has a
Speaker 6: lot more to do with that conscious development of our
Speaker 6: sensory experiences and is associated with blissful, rapturous states. They've found,
Speaker 6: you know, there's there's dopamine correlates, but really strong correlates
Speaker 6: to the endocannabinoid system. And you know what, I saw
Speaker 6: a paper fairly recently. I was talking about runners high
Speaker 6: and circuit five is all about getting high in different ways,
Speaker 6: whether or not it's psychedelically.
Speaker 4: Induced or just different ways of living life where you.
Speaker 6: Feel the static state, the six static sensory state, And
Speaker 6: for a long time, runners high has.
Speaker 4: Been talked about as you're endorphins.
Speaker 6: You get a lot of endorphins going and you feel
Speaker 6: high off of that and it feels great.
Speaker 4: But recent research has.
Speaker 6: Shown that it actually activates more of the endocannabinoid system,
Speaker 6: so our own bodies cannabinoids that are activated during that
Speaker 6: sort of state. And with circuit six, the metaprogramming, there's
Speaker 6: strong correlation to relationships to serotonin. So a lot of
Speaker 6: your classical psychedelics for instance, that activate that work on
Speaker 6: the serotonin receptors. At the same time, there's a lot
Speaker 6: of neuroscience taking a look at the dynamic between different
Speaker 6: brain regions and networks, specifically the default mode network, and
Speaker 6: so there's a lot of research taking a look at
Speaker 6: that and how that changes during those type of experiences. Again,
Speaker 6: whether psychedelically induced or induced through ritual ceremonial practices, meditation practices,
Speaker 6: and things like that. There's a lot better understanding of
Speaker 6: the sort of neural correlates of meditation and what that
Speaker 6: actually does and allows to happen in our brain. And
Speaker 6: with circuit aid, the most I guess expansive state that's
Speaker 6: associated with the non dual states or those mystical experiences.
Speaker 6: You know, they've been able to take a look at
Speaker 6: will There's less people that tend to experience that, so
Speaker 6: there's less research on it.
Speaker 4: There is.
Speaker 6: They are finding relationships to like waking dream states, So
Speaker 6: there's a lot of similarities between what our brain is
Speaker 6: doing during the rem cycle of sleep, the rapid eye
Speaker 6: movement phase of sleep, and then these unitive or trans
Speaker 6: personal states, and so there is more and more hard
Speaker 6: line neuroscience that we're able to take a look at
Speaker 6: we definitely do in the book.
Speaker 4: That's great, you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 9: I just wanted to add it might be good to
Speaker 9: point out at this point so people kind of understand
Speaker 9: the different brain circuits better, is that one of the
Speaker 9: things that Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson didn't developing
Speaker 9: their model of the eight circuit brain is is they
Speaker 9: correlated each circuit with a different drug and by thinking
Speaker 9: about how how the different drugs affect us and give
Speaker 9: you some insight into the different brain models. So, for example,
Speaker 9: the first circuit, which is all about survival and and
Speaker 9: safety is is activated by by by opiates or opioid
Speaker 9: type drugs. The second circuit, the emotional circuit, is largely
Speaker 9: activated by by alcohol, and the third circuit is largely
Speaker 9: you know, which is the the intellectual or rational mind
Speaker 9: circuit is activated by caffeine, amphetamines or cognitive enhancers or
Speaker 9: what people call smart drugs. The fourth brain circuit is
Speaker 9: activated by md M A or some people say valium.
Speaker 9: And those are those first four circuits are basically the
Speaker 9: circuits that they say are for terrestrial organization, for living
Speaker 9: life on Earth, and for surviving on Earth, and then
Speaker 9: the four higher circuits are they postulated for living beyond
Speaker 9: the Earth, for living in zero gravity, for living in
Speaker 9: a post larval or post human stage of existence that
Speaker 9: we're evolving to in the future. And they think that,
Speaker 9: you know, just being in zero gravity helps to activate
Speaker 9: these circuits. For example, Edgar Mitchell I think he was
Speaker 9: the third or fourth man to walk on the Moon.
Speaker 9: I interviewed him for one of my books, and he
Speaker 9: described how when he was in an outer space he
Speaker 9: had these very profound mystical and psychic experiences that almost
Speaker 9: sound like a profound LSD trip. And then so there's
Speaker 9: the four higher circuits. The fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth
Speaker 9: circuit are are activated by by cannabis, by by l
Speaker 9: s D, by you know, by magic mushrooms, ayahuasca. And
Speaker 9: then the highest circuit, the eighth circuit is is activated
Speaker 9: by by ketamine or or d M T. So. So
Speaker 9: these that's why I discussed at the beginning how it
Speaker 9: was such an interesting map for being able to to
Speaker 9: being able to fight a framework for these for these
Speaker 9: different states of consciousness that different drugs produce. But but
Speaker 9: with all these all these different states are of course
Speaker 9: they're they're there because there there's a circuit or there's
Speaker 9: a there's a uh you know, a portion of the
Speaker 9: brain that that you know, the corresponds to these and
Speaker 9: they wouldn't you know, it's not like the drug is
Speaker 9: producing it. They're already lying there late. And there's course,
Speaker 9: you know, they can be accessed to many other different
Speaker 9: ways besides drugs, but drugs are a clear, easy way
Speaker 9: of understanding them. So anyway, I hope that provides some
Speaker 9: additional insight into this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great, thank you, That was great.
Speaker 7: Mhm.
Speaker 3: How do you guys deal with I think before were
Speaker 3: you saying like you kind of classify like entities or deities.
Speaker 3: I wanted to ask, like, how do you treat entities
Speaker 3: and visions as literal psychological or both? Or how do
Speaker 3: you decide in session of the classify things.
Speaker 6: I think David might have the expertise here.
Speaker 9: Well, I mean, I don't. I don't. I don't work
Speaker 9: with people like like like Doug and Rachel do. I mean,
Speaker 9: I'm not a therapist, but but I mean I I
Speaker 9: I've just read a book on you know, and cataloging
Speaker 9: the different entities that that people report during their mostly
Speaker 9: during their their d m T or DI mental trip
Speaker 9: to mean experiences and uh and how how do how
Speaker 9: do I treat them? I mean, I treat them like
Speaker 9: a mystery or a profound mystery. I know, I don't
Speaker 9: think we we we we know what they are. I
Speaker 9: mean I explore different models for understanding them in the
Speaker 9: book and in my own research with it that they
Speaker 9: you know, that they could be just you know, hallucinations,
Speaker 9: They could be projections of the mind. They could be
Speaker 9: archetyped from the collective unconscious, you know, and or they
Speaker 9: could be independently existing dimension you know, entities that exist
Speaker 9: in alternative dimensions that we're really contacting. I mean, we
Speaker 9: we don't really know, and we we never may really
Speaker 9: know for sure, because I mean, I mean, how do
Speaker 9: I know you guys are conscious? I mean, how do
Speaker 9: I know anybody else is conscious? Really, there's there's no
Speaker 9: scientific measure of consciousness. You know. All we can do
Speaker 9: is base it on, you know, our experience and how
Speaker 9: it seems to us. And and I can tell you this.
Speaker 9: You know, almost everybody who has a you know, a
Speaker 9: powerful experience with d MT, they come back and they
Speaker 9: say that was absolutely real, that was you know, that was,
Speaker 9: you know, more real than this. You know this, this
Speaker 9: is the world that seems like a dream. So you know,
Speaker 9: so so so based on person experience, they certainly, you know,
Speaker 9: they seem intelligent and conscious. They seem more intelligent than us,
Speaker 9: you know. But as to whether that's a projection of
Speaker 9: our minds or you know, a simulation, or who knows.
Speaker 9: I mean, it's a profound mystery.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2: With the popularity of d MT and everything, I'm only
Speaker 2: going by what I hear. And yes, it's basically through
Speaker 2: Joe Rogan, because that's what he's one of the biggest
Speaker 2: advocates for it. It sounds like when he discussed it, everybody,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter who they are, always speak of the
Speaker 2: same type of entities.
Speaker 9: Then yeah, it's not necessarily always the same entities, but
Speaker 9: we I mean we catalog in our book twenty five
Speaker 9: different of the most common entities because there's a lot
Speaker 9: of them that people doing, you know, very commonly encountered.
Speaker 9: But I mean, really there's hundreds of different entities that
Speaker 9: people describe. It's not like they always but you know,
Speaker 9: the some of the most common entities are like what
Speaker 9: they term the self transforming machine elves, the gray aliens
Speaker 9: that people report. Also in the alien abduction reports, fairies
Speaker 9: like the fairy sightings are reported. Reptilian type beings, octopus
Speaker 9: type beings, clowns, and gestures are commonly reported. Yeah, so
Speaker 9: it's you know, why these types of beings are so
Speaker 9: commonly encountered, is like again, it's a it's a profound mystery.
Speaker 9: You know, we really don't know. Is it are the
Speaker 9: archetypes and you know what you know young would have
Speaker 9: called the collective unconscious or is or are they you know,
Speaker 9: corresponding to some type of genuine, you know, interdimensional species
Speaker 9: that we're you know, we're on the verge of being
Speaker 9: able to catalog in a in a more biological way.
Speaker 4: Yeah so, I guess to your your question as far
Speaker 4: as working.
Speaker 6: With that with people when people have those type of experiences,
Speaker 6: the approach is very similar to what David was talking about.
Speaker 6: It's one of the those situations where you know, it's
Speaker 6: it's a recurring experience that many people have. There are
Speaker 6: many overlaps or very many similarities either in the entities
Speaker 6: that are experienced or what that experience.
Speaker 4: May look like.
Speaker 6: But it also goes back to what I mentioned earlier
Speaker 6: in terms of not trying to make too much meaning
Speaker 6: right away out of the experience and approaching it with
Speaker 6: a bit of an openness, a receptivity to the experience
Speaker 6: and what might develop out of that, so you know,
Speaker 6: you don't necessarily have to adhere to a perspective that
Speaker 6: it is, you know, an external entity that is on
Speaker 6: another dimension that we're getting access to, or you don't
Speaker 6: necessarily have to immediately subscribe to this as a part
Speaker 6: of my psyche that is being brought up and presenting
Speaker 6: itself as this particular archetype.
Speaker 4: But we tend to.
Speaker 6: Focus more on what may what insight might be brought
Speaker 6: out of that experience more so than what these entities
Speaker 6: actually are, at least until we can do more research
Speaker 6: and get more information about it, and maybe you have
Speaker 6: a better idea.
Speaker 9: And right now and right now going on is the
Speaker 9: extended state d MT trial. I was just going to
Speaker 9: bring that up, yeah, the Imperial College. And because normally
Speaker 9: a d m T, I mean d m T is
Speaker 9: naturally found in the human body. It's not actually a drug,
Speaker 9: it's it's hodogynist and the human human system. It's probably
Speaker 9: a neurotransmitter of some kind, whether we don't know what
Speaker 9: function it serves, We have no idea. Again, that's another mystery.
Speaker 9: You know, d m T is found in every animal,
Speaker 9: is found in it's in every mammal, it's found in
Speaker 9: you know, many plants, and no biochemist has any idea,
Speaker 9: you know what what function it serves in any of
Speaker 9: these places. So it's really a profound mystery.
Speaker 6: We're learning not exactly the same, but similar questions that
Speaker 6: are that are not coming up around ssalicida as well,
Speaker 6: and it's strong association to the serotonin receptor as the
Speaker 6: two A receptor. In particular, some of the more recent
Speaker 6: paper system the last few years are are taking a
Speaker 6: look at how molecularly almost identical silicen, the metabolite of psilocybin,
Speaker 6: is to serotonin, and their speculation that the serotonin system
Speaker 6: that our brain has developed, serotonin, the neurotransmitter as we
Speaker 6: understand it now, might not actually be the original ligand
Speaker 6: that the system was built out of, but it may
Speaker 6: have been an adaptation of a relationship with psilocybin mushrooms.
Speaker 9: Right, Yeah, And let me just also, I was going
Speaker 9: to say about the d mt X trials that are
Speaker 9: going on. You know, d MT is because it's naturally
Speaker 9: found in the body, the body is able to metabolize
Speaker 9: it extremely quickly, so the experience only lasts you know,
Speaker 9: five or ten minutes, which is why you know, when
Speaker 9: people do it with in a n Ayahuascar grew, they
Speaker 9: do it with an MAO or a monoimmune oxidated you know,
Speaker 9: inhibitor which prevents the breakdown so quickly. But when when
Speaker 9: you smoke, when you smoke DMT or vaporize it, or
Speaker 9: do it in the kind of concentrations that allow people
Speaker 9: to sort of enter into what people call hyperspace where
Speaker 9: they kind of leave this world and enter into another
Speaker 9: another dimension. That experience only lasts five or ten minutes.
Speaker 9: And what they're what they're doing and at the Imperial
Speaker 9: College in London and around five other places around the
Speaker 9: world is there is they're using a kind of a
Speaker 9: kind of intravenous system where they're where they're where they're
Speaker 9: sort of keep peeping the levels constant in their blood,
Speaker 9: so they can stay in this state for extended periods
Speaker 9: of time, for you know, for a half an hour,
Speaker 9: an hour, or potentially much longer. So this will give us,
Speaker 9: you know, greater opportunity to be able to dialogue with
Speaker 9: these entities and be able to see if there's really
Speaker 9: some kind of some kind of reality to this. I
Speaker 9: don't know what the proof would be, but you know,
Speaker 9: but if we can come back with some kind of
Speaker 9: new scientific knowledge or or you know, tech logical brute
Speaker 9: plants to create starships or time machines or matter transporters
Speaker 9: or new forms of energy or I don't know what
Speaker 9: kind of science fiction technologies could come out of it,
Speaker 9: but that would not constitute some type of genuine evidence
Speaker 9: that these that these entities really have an independent existence.
Speaker 4: Right right, It's very interesting for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Doug, how how do you administer it? I guess.
Speaker 4: How do we administer it?
Speaker 6: Yeah, so we work exclusively with psilocybin over here in Oregon.
Speaker 6: That's what's that's what's legalized, and that's what we're able
Speaker 6: to get people access to. Uh. So it's it's either
Speaker 6: dried dried mushrooms, dried fruit and body. Some of it
Speaker 6: comes as a homogenized powder form. Uh And we're usually
Speaker 6: at this point most people are pairing that with orange
Speaker 6: juice or lemon juice because it helps metabolize the mushrooms faster,
Speaker 6: so it's less demand on the system. But now we've
Speaker 6: got a couple of companies that are making gummies and chocolates.
Speaker 1: Wow, God, how long is that? How long does that
Speaker 1: normally last? One?
Speaker 6: It's usually depending on the dose, four or five hours
Speaker 6: or so, but I mean individvidual metabolism definitely varies. I've
Speaker 6: had some people who metabolize it particularly quickly. I mean,
Speaker 6: psilocybin as a whole is metabolized pretty quickly. Most of
Speaker 6: it's out of your system by the time your trip
Speaker 6: is done. But the actual trip itself, some people will
Speaker 6: come out of it, you know, two three hours.
Speaker 4: It's relatively short.
Speaker 6: And we've had some people that are slow metabolizers and
Speaker 6: they've had ten eleven hour journeys. So it's one of
Speaker 6: those things when I'm working with people, we set aside
Speaker 6: the whole day just in case.
Speaker 2: Awesome, anybody have any questions, I do, and it's for everyone.
Speaker 2: If you guys do your own spiritual practices, have you
Speaker 2: found that you have been able to hit that those
Speaker 2: points through your own practices without the assistance of these.
Speaker 7: Uh with these drugs.
Speaker 4: Yes, if so, if you can share, you.
Speaker 5: Can, Yeah, you can there's certain breathing techniques through the
Speaker 5: nostrils that you can do to enter certain states of SOMEBODI.
Speaker 5: There's there's different ways to enter into these different mind states,
Speaker 5: and you know, a lot of I think, uh, when
Speaker 5: you look at the drug angle of it, it's the
Speaker 5: quick way.
Speaker 4: To open the door.
Speaker 5: And a lot of times, once you open the door,
Speaker 5: you know, like al of the Suxley says, you know,
Speaker 5: those are the doors of perception. And once those doors
Speaker 5: are open, then they remain open. So it's a matter
Speaker 5: of training your brain through some of these extemporaneous you know,
Speaker 5: processes to be able to recreate those without.
Speaker 4: The use of substances.
Speaker 5: So it can be yes, it can be done, for sure.
Speaker 9: The most the most powerful technique that I know for
Speaker 9: being able to access these other states of consciousness is
Speaker 9: what's called lucid dreaming or or or the practice of
Speaker 9: becoming conscious and aware in your dreams so that you
Speaker 9: wake up in the dream and you realize that you're
Speaker 9: dreaming while it's actually happening, and then you can actually
Speaker 9: act within the dream. And one of the amazing things
Speaker 9: is that when you're inside of a dream, you can
Speaker 9: do a drug you can do what you can. You
Speaker 9: can do cannabis or in the dream and they have
Speaker 9: the real effects in the dream. So that's that's certainly
Speaker 9: a way of actually experiencing this without actually doing any
Speaker 9: physical drugs. But it really works. I've done it many,
Speaker 9: many times, and it's a it's a very very powerful
Speaker 9: technique and it's something anybody can learn. There's you know,
Speaker 9: to go online and look at the basic techniques. I
Speaker 9: don't have time to go into them right now, but
Speaker 9: in another future podcast if you're if you're interested, I'll
Speaker 9: be happy to explain the different techniques for dreaming. But
Speaker 9: they're a very very powerful way of accessing these different
Speaker 9: states of consciousness without drugs.
Speaker 5: And do you think when you enter into those lucid
Speaker 5: dream states that your body is taking advantage of the
Speaker 5: androgynists substances your own system produces, because I know.
Speaker 9: That's a great question. I mean, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm
Speaker 9: sorry going Oh.
Speaker 5: I've just noticed when I have become lucid in my
Speaker 5: dreams that everything becomes brighter and I get a feeling
Speaker 5: that starts in the head and moves down that's almost electric.
Speaker 5: So I think that there, you know, I think that
Speaker 5: in combination with the mental processes, I think there's also
Speaker 5: some sort of a physical switch that your body may
Speaker 5: be participating with as well.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean it's very likely. I mean there hasn't
Speaker 9: been any research done in this at all, but yeah,
Speaker 9: I think that's a fascinating question and it would be
Speaker 9: wonderful and if you tune to really explore that greater depth.
Speaker 6: Right, absolutely, Yeah, And in the book we talk about
Speaker 6: that as well. Psychedelics can work as it's a fairly easily,
Speaker 6: reliably reproducible catalyst for these these altered states of consciousness,
Speaker 6: But there have been practices across culturally around the world
Speaker 6: for a very very long time that allow somebody to
Speaker 6: develop or reach these non orinary states of consciousness.
Speaker 4: So meditation, for sure.
Speaker 6: They've found that the neural correl it's what's going on
Speaker 6: in the brain in meditative states, has a lot of
Speaker 6: similarity with some of the drug in these states, so
Speaker 6: that the psychedelics happen to be a realm that Rachel
Speaker 6: and I work within. But my own journey working with
Speaker 6: these and my exploration, while psychedelics were an early influence you,
Speaker 6: it's rarely, really really rarely personally work with psychedelics anymore
Speaker 6: because I've found the other ways to be able to
Speaker 6: access this. So working with meditation, the alternating nostril breathing
Speaker 6: or pranayama breathing practices, holotropic breathwork developed by Stanislav Growth
Speaker 6: is an incredibly potent way to just alter your breathing
Speaker 6: and reach these states with.
Speaker 4: Something that you don't have to ingest, you don't have
Speaker 4: to take anything in. It's completely free.
Speaker 6: It's an awareness and a development of your own body
Speaker 6: to be able to reach these states.
Speaker 4: And again, ritual and ceremonial practices and.
Speaker 6: Those sorts of things are all also geared toward immersing
Speaker 6: yourself or developing states of gnosis to be able to
Speaker 6: tap into these. And again the neurological neurobiological correlates of
Speaker 6: what's going on in those states, the same sort of
Speaker 6: things are happening. So the deep meditative states holotropic breathwork
Speaker 6: has been shown to do many of the same things
Speaker 6: that like your classical Sarah schnurdic LSD psilocybin is doing,
Speaker 6: or there's technological ways to do it now. So there's
Speaker 6: things like the God Machine that stimulates different areas of
Speaker 6: your brain and can bring on these mystical non dual states.
Speaker 1: Not one of those.
Speaker 5: Well, I saw an interview with the Buddhist monk and
Speaker 5: they actually, you know, use the God machine, the helmet,
Speaker 5: and he said, he said, that brings you instantly to
Speaker 5: what I've been working like fifteen sixteen years to be
Speaker 5: able to do with my own brain.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is very.
Speaker 5: Interesting when you start getting into these mechanical electrical phenomena
Speaker 5: incorporated with the you know, and that's where you get
Speaker 5: into Timothy Larry there towards the end, I saw one
Speaker 5: of his lectures where he was talking about the digital
Speaker 5: mindscape in regard to the merger of the digital and
Speaker 5: the human phenomena per se to take you even to
Speaker 5: higher potential levels, you know, the virtual reality work.
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, there there's also there's there's research at the
Speaker 9: Max Planks Institute in Germany uh lucid dreaming research where
Speaker 9: they used that trans cranial brain stimulation this little band
Speaker 9: are on people's heads and when people are dreaming, the
Speaker 9: transcrannial brain stimulation activates the prefrontal cortex and that basically
Speaker 9: triggers lucid dream activity in people who are just dreaming.
Speaker 9: So that that's a technology that is being miniaturized and
Speaker 9: mass produced, and it won't be long before we have
Speaker 9: little just little headbands you can wear when you go
Speaker 9: to sleep that allow you to locid dream at the
Speaker 9: come on command.
Speaker 8: Right right, Yeah, TEG, were you going to say something
Speaker 8: about like neurogender acupuncture.
Speaker 4: I certainly can if you I made sure.
Speaker 6: Those are other tools that I utilize in a couple
Speaker 6: of different realms within my clinical practice, I've done some
Speaker 6: exploration of acupuncture as a means of non invasive brain stimulation,
Speaker 6: So acupuncture over the scalp or use of photobiomodulation cold
Speaker 6: lasers stimulate different areas of the brain, so you can
Speaker 6: geared that in a very similar way, though it's more
Speaker 6: subtle to stimulating those areas of the brain that can
Speaker 6: induce those states, so inducing altered states of consciousness through that.
Speaker 6: People who may have familiarity with acupuncture knows that you
Speaker 6: can get kind of acu drunk as it were, or
Speaker 6: you get into this very relaxed, endorphin rich state where
Speaker 6: you can feel in an altered state, and the neurogen
Speaker 6: brain balancing is a form of non invasive brain stimulation
Speaker 6: or neurobiomodulation that takes a real time EEG reading through
Speaker 6: different nodes that are put over the scalp. It reads
Speaker 6: what your brain is doing and creates an adaptive frequency
Speaker 6: in real time that sends a signal back to bring
Speaker 6: your brain back into coherence.
Speaker 4: And again you can create protocols based.
Speaker 6: On understandings of neuroscience and different brain networks in order
Speaker 6: to modulate those or create change your alterations and those
Speaker 6: brain networks too. And that's a really interesting one because
Speaker 6: it's real time adaptive. So it's taking a reading of
Speaker 6: exactly what your brain is doing and then sending a
Speaker 6: frequency back, a signal back, and your brain's response to
Speaker 6: that frequency in that signal is then read by the
Speaker 6: EG and it's just this feedback loop that's bringing your
Speaker 6: brain into a particular state of coherence. Just other tools
Speaker 6: that can be brought into this exploration of consciousness.
Speaker 5: Well, and also learning to control those loops, Yeah, as
Speaker 5: far as leveling them up or leveling them down through
Speaker 5: the conscious effort of noticing.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. Yeah, So that's what you know. Conventional neurofeedback is
Speaker 6: typically doing. You've got an EEG reading and you've got
Speaker 6: a screen or an audio tone that you're you're working
Speaker 6: with and with the neurogen even though it's completely passive,
Speaker 6: so you don't have to do that. You know, the
Speaker 6: system is doing everything for you. You are able to
Speaker 6: see on the screen what your brain is doing, how
Speaker 6: it's responding, and you can play with that. You can
Speaker 6: toy with that, and you can enhance your ability to
Speaker 6: you know, change your own brain.
Speaker 5: Right right, And I mean this just watchs you right
Speaker 5: down the road of frequency and reiki and all the
Speaker 5: different waveform vibrations that affect the body on subtle you know,
Speaker 5: subtle forms.
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, anybody else got anything that's good?
Speaker 1: Okay? Uh? Yes, what.
Speaker 3: I guess, like if you wanted to probably wrap it
Speaker 3: up a little bit soon, but I wanted to ask
Speaker 3: each one of these if you could, like, I guess, like,
Speaker 3: what would you like to say about this program that
Speaker 3: you think like it can What would you like to
Speaker 3: leave people with this, you know what, with the idea
Speaker 3: of this and what it can.
Speaker 1: Do for people?
Speaker 6: Sure I can start in that, you know, this is
Speaker 6: something The model itself is something that I've utilized, you know,
Speaker 6: throughout my professional career in different ways and understanding of
Speaker 6: where people are coming from a big component of that
Speaker 6: is sort of neurological imprints that happen early in life.
Speaker 6: So if we have a significant life event early in life,
Speaker 6: you know, early life trauma or something like that, that
Speaker 6: can be very tied into a particular developmental phase, and
Speaker 6: we can say that they have a very strong imprint
Speaker 6: in circuit one and that relationship with their body and
Speaker 6: or attachment and so being able to work.
Speaker 4: With somebody with where they're at.
Speaker 6: But also with the psychedelic realm, with the non ordinary
Speaker 6: states of consciousness, being able to have a framework, to
Speaker 6: be able to have an understanding because a lot of
Speaker 6: people will have spontaneous experiences that they don't have any
Speaker 6: sort of framework to talk about that, and that's one
Speaker 6: of the big places that this comes into play. This
Speaker 6: model that can be really helpful is being able to
Speaker 6: have the language and the understanding that these experiences that
Speaker 6: don't often get talked about, often get shoved to the
Speaker 6: side or dismissed that it's something that's many many people
Speaker 6: have had access to some people have greater access than others,
Speaker 6: And a lot of our goal with this is to
Speaker 6: both inform people who may have these experiences and then
Speaker 6: professionals that are working with people that may have had
Speaker 6: these experiences but also don't have the framework with that.
Speaker 4: So, like my.
Speaker 6: Psilocybin facilitation training, there was a recognition that people are
Speaker 6: having these experiences, the entity encounters, transgenerational experiences, unitive experiences.
Speaker 4: But then you recognize that it happens, but what do
Speaker 4: you do with it?
Speaker 6: How do you navigate that, how do you discuss it,
Speaker 6: and how do you help people work.
Speaker 4: Through that experience?
Speaker 6: And that's really been much of the goal of this
Speaker 6: work and what we're steering toward and developing training programs
Speaker 6: and everything like that, is so that people are more
Speaker 6: informed about these types of intelligence that everybody has access to,
Speaker 6: but not everybody has accessed them, and what to do
Speaker 6: with that.
Speaker 8: So bring it back to Tim Leary, the thing for yourself,
Speaker 8: question authority, And I just feel like we're in such
Speaker 8: a strange time in history, especially social media and scy
Speaker 8: ops and propaganda and just you know, just this constant
Speaker 8: bombardment of different messages and different agendas, and so to
Speaker 8: really be able to question, as David we call it
Speaker 8: your b asked your belief systems, and you know, as
Speaker 8: a therapist, something that comes up like almost with every
Speaker 8: client is this lack of a sense of self, you know,
Speaker 8: constant need for external validation, constantly comparing yourself to other people,
Speaker 8: feeling they need to conform. So it's being able to
Speaker 8: have a tool that really encourages you to strip away
Speaker 8: all the bs and really find your true self and
Speaker 8: to live an authentic life and bring your gifts into
Speaker 8: the world and fully. So I think like, this is
Speaker 8: such an amazing tool, you know, using psychedelics potentially as
Speaker 8: a means to catalyze that, but in and of itself
Speaker 8: for just deeper self exploration. And if imagine, like if
Speaker 8: everybody in the world was to really go into this
Speaker 8: kind of a process, how much of a better world
Speaker 8: this potentially could be. And my real vision for idealistic
Speaker 8: vision for the use of it.
Speaker 1: Did see.
Speaker 9: I'm not really sure what I could add, but just
Speaker 9: that if people are more interested and people are interested
Speaker 9: in learning more about the the eighth Circuit model. Besides
Speaker 9: Rachel and Doug's wonderful book, the Timothy Leary's Excess Psychology,
Speaker 9: Robert Anton Wilson's Prometheus Rising in Ontario, Wally's Angel Tech
Speaker 9: or probably three of the three of the best books
Speaker 9: that you can that you can get a foundation for
Speaker 9: understanding this on and yeah, and I think that this
Speaker 9: can be really helpful as we're you know, as as
Speaker 9: an artificial intelligence is increasing and we're moving into what
Speaker 9: you know, Ray Kurtzweild called the singularity, where where you know,
Speaker 9: computer intelligence is rapidly becoming a more intelligent than than
Speaker 9: human beings. And and I think that having a psychedelic
Speaker 9: perspective is is very important at this time in history,
Speaker 9: primarily because it raises ecological awareness. And I don't think
Speaker 9: there's there's anything more important right now than the raising
Speaker 9: ecological awareness during our climate crisis. I just wanted to
Speaker 9: mention one other thing here, As my friend Sarah like
Speaker 9: to say, I'm going to be real with you this morning,
Speaker 9: early this morning, I did some magic mushrooms and totally
Speaker 9: forgot about this podcast. It wasn't It wasn't until Rachel
Speaker 9: reminded me half an hour afore I did, and I
Speaker 9: was like, oh my god, I forgot we got to
Speaker 9: do a podcast today. So I don't know that I
Speaker 9: was the most articulate today, and I apologize.
Speaker 4: And I wasn't.
Speaker 9: But but I but you guys have the honor. But
Speaker 9: this is the only podcast I've ever done tripping on
Speaker 9: magic mushrooms.
Speaker 1: So so there you go. I had no clue.
Speaker 4: You were very articulate. Yes, very articulate.
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1: That's wow.
Speaker 3: That's wasn't uh. You know one thing I did want
Speaker 3: to ask too. I think I kind of got out
Speaker 3: of it. You know, this is something I think it
Speaker 3: even folds into the occult and magic depending on how
Speaker 3: you're practicing it. Do you think with this you kind
Speaker 3: of actually kind of reprogram yourself? Do you think that's possible?
Speaker 4: Well, and it's not.
Speaker 5: It's deprogramming as far as, uh, letting go of the artificiality.
Speaker 5: Like you're like doctor Rachel, like you were talking about
Speaker 5: coming to know your true self and letting the things
Speaker 5: within your true loves and interest shine, you know, for
Speaker 5: the world to see. And and I think that is
Speaker 5: uh that, you know, the great stepping away. You know,
Speaker 5: it's like Tavis McKinnon talks about, you know, culture is
Speaker 5: it's like a Petri dish and it's like growing and
Speaker 5: it's doing its own you know, and you want to
Speaker 5: step away from the culture and be the true essence
Speaker 5: of the self, and that that, you know, requires going
Speaker 5: through these phases of understanding and these levels of knowing yourself,
Speaker 5: and it's it's lifelong process. You know, it's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, And sort of in the subtitle of the
Speaker 6: Big metaprogramming the multi dimensional Self, you know, the idea is, uh,
Speaker 6: different steps of sort of deconditioning or increasing your awareness
Speaker 6: so that you have the ability to look at those
Speaker 6: those portions of self that that have you know, dictated
Speaker 6: how you perceive reality or navigate the world and being
Speaker 6: able to sort of deconstruct those and recreate or if
Speaker 6: you want to look at his reprogram uh, the way
Speaker 6: that you're able to look at things and navigate things.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 9: I can add something about imprint vulnerability to that, you know,
Speaker 9: the famous ethologist Conrad Lorenz did a study many years
Speaker 9: ago where he showed that when when when baby ducklings
Speaker 9: first hatch, that the very first thing they see they
Speaker 9: imprint as their mother. Usually it's you, the acual mother duck.
Speaker 9: But they he noticed that if they saw him instead
Speaker 9: of the mother duck, they would follow him around, and
Speaker 9: they would follow whoever around that they you know, first
Speaker 9: saw when they when they first hatched, and and with
Speaker 9: what Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson did was apply
Speaker 9: this to human development, that that as each circus sort
Speaker 9: of const into being developmentally, there's a period of what
Speaker 9: we call imprint vulnerability, where the circumstances that you're in
Speaker 9: at that time, the environment that you're in, you know,
Speaker 9: in a positive or negative way, affect your you know,
Speaker 9: your orientation with that particular circuit and and then that
Speaker 9: kind of sticks for life unless you make new imprints,
Speaker 9: and for most people they they never make new imprints.
Speaker 9: But what psychedelics do is they allow people to suspend
Speaker 9: their previous imprints and then make make new ones and
Speaker 9: hopefully hopefully better ones.
Speaker 1: Better.
Speaker 8: Yes, that's by the Catherine MacLean, the neuroscientists. She did
Speaker 8: and studies on psilocybin and found that because it used
Speaker 8: to be believed that around each thirty ish the personality
Speaker 8: was crystallized and so you were kind of like this
Speaker 8: is who you are for forever more. And so with
Speaker 8: psilocybin it sort of loosened those the rigidity of those
Speaker 8: crystallized structures and that you were able to then kind
Speaker 8: of reimprint and you know kind of this you know,
Speaker 8: other versions of yourself as you whatever insight, you might
Speaker 8: have had experience of awe, beauty God, you know, and
Speaker 8: so helped to really loosen those boundaries.
Speaker 6: And that brings it back to kind of the theme
Speaker 6: of the podcast as a whole. That's where the ritual
Speaker 6: of the ceremonial work, the occult practices have also come
Speaker 6: into play. Different approaches to being able to do that.
Speaker 1: What would be like, what are some of the ones
Speaker 1: that you know when it comes to a cult practices.
Speaker 3: That you you know, like I was thinking of sigils
Speaker 3: possibly as being used imprint.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, We really briefly talk about sigil work in relationship
Speaker 6: to circuits six and metal awareness and an ability to
Speaker 6: externally projected intention and then root that or see that
Speaker 6: in the subconscious so that you're subconsciously manifesting that. And
Speaker 6: that's absolutely that feedback loop of increasing that awareness but
Speaker 6: working on such a subtle level that it's not right
Speaker 6: there in your conscious awareness. So sigil work certainly comes
Speaker 6: into play.
Speaker 3: A yeah, I assume, I don't know, just yeah makes
Speaker 3: sense to me. Anybody have any questions before we wrap
Speaker 3: it up, I'm kind of out for now. Unfortunately, I
Speaker 3: have no problem, but I have no more questions.
Speaker 4: That's a pretty good good coverage of the topic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll tell you one thing I would
Speaker 3: like to I mean, even if I get you all
Speaker 3: on separately on something else, I think I would love
Speaker 3: to get you all back on the show at some point.
Speaker 3: You know, I think it absolutely really interesting stuff to
Speaker 3: talk about and experience.
Speaker 1: Is you know, research definitely got my got me interested.
Speaker 9: Yeah, it'd be great to come back on the show
Speaker 9: and me and right Rachel has completed a an oracle
Speaker 9: deck for inner traditions. That's that's based on the eighth
Speaker 9: Circuit model and based on the d N t entities.
Speaker 9: So yeah, when when that comes out, we'd love to
Speaker 9: love to do a show with you about that.
Speaker 1: Nice. Nice.
Speaker 3: They actually normally send me people, so I'll let them
Speaker 3: know they'll take you guys.
Speaker 1: On nice cool. Yeah, hell yeah, that.
Speaker 3: Would be awesome definitely, And I definitely keep you off
Speaker 3: with the Lucid dreaming in the future, so cool. Yeah,
Speaker 3: we'll all definitely be keeping in touch if that's okay.
Speaker 3: Please everybody, uh Doug, please let everybody know where they
Speaker 3: can find you stuff, what you would like to promote whatever.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, most of our mature around the eight circuit
Speaker 6: model could be found at eight circuit ascension dot com.
Speaker 4: So all of our books, we've got some related books.
Speaker 6: To tie in some of the the I guess we'll
Speaker 6: considered mythopoetic or or archetypal systems that are out there,
Speaker 6: so throw the ruins system the each sing. So we've
Speaker 6: got some additional materials beyond our Facebook. Like I mentioned,
Speaker 6: the workbook's going to be coming out pretty soon here,
Speaker 6: not exactly, we don't have an exact publication date yet,
Speaker 6: but very very quickly we just sent off the last
Speaker 6: edits there, so that's where you go for most of
Speaker 6: our material is at eight circuit ascension dot com. We're
Speaker 6: developing out training programs and continuing education courses and also
Speaker 6: for the psychologically inclined solo practitioners being able to work
Speaker 6: through that material and have access to working through that
Speaker 6: as well with a little bit of guidance.
Speaker 1: Awesome, Thank you so much in Rachel, Thank you very much,
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Yes, is there anything or anything that you would like
Speaker 3: to promote or tell people about your own stuff or anything?
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean I think John summed it up and
Speaker 8: David already summed it up. Those are like the primary
Speaker 8: things that you know have been the focus of my
Speaker 8: life have been like this, this workbook and the courses
Speaker 8: and the Oracle Deck with David, so super exciting things coming.
Speaker 7: Down a pike.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Thank you and David, do you want to
Speaker 1: promote any of your other books or anything?
Speaker 9: Yeah, well, first of all, this is my latest book,
Speaker 9: The Illustrated Field Guide to the d MT Entities, which
Speaker 9: was illustrated by by our friend Sarah Fan Huntley and
Speaker 9: around twenty five other artists including Alex Gray and Luke
Speaker 9: Brown and others. And that's sort of based on a
Speaker 9: like a field guide idea of the entities like we
Speaker 9: did discussed. To find out more about my work, my
Speaker 9: website is David J. Brown Jay Brown dot com and
Speaker 9: that there's a collection of many of my interviews I've
Speaker 9: done many I've done over a couple hundred interviews with
Speaker 9: different leading edge thinkers. Ever you want, from Timothy Lear
Speaker 9: and Robert Onsen Wilson to Rupert Sheldrake and Albert Hoffman
Speaker 9: and Jerry Garcia and Noam Chomsky and just many, many
Speaker 9: dozens of brilliant minds and ask them questions if they
Speaker 9: normally don't get asked about God and consciousness and life
Speaker 9: after death and things like that. You can find many
Speaker 9: of those I'm on. You can find me on Facebook easily.
Speaker 9: You can find me on Instagram. And if you go
Speaker 9: on Amazon and put my name in you'll see my
Speaker 9: sales page with the twenty books that I've written about
Speaker 9: the evolution of consciousness. And anybody has questions who wants
Speaker 9: to contact me can easily do through Facebook or Instagram.
Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, Wow, that's great. All those interviews, this is
Speaker 1: the only one he'd de driven.
Speaker 9: Yes, the only one that's awesome than you and when
Speaker 9: I wasn't planning on it either but.
Speaker 1: Got you no. Thank you all very very much.
Speaker 3: Again, this is a really interesting episode, a lot of
Speaker 3: a lot of interesting stuff.
Speaker 1: Judith, real quick, let everybody know where they can find
Speaker 1: you as well.
Speaker 12: Oh sure.
Speaker 2: First to the three guests, thank you very much. I
Speaker 2: thank you very much for the work you're doing. It's actually,
Speaker 2: it's actually going it's gonna be How can I say this,
Speaker 2: It's going to rock the world once everybody starts accepting this,
Speaker 2: I honestly do believe it's going to make a difference,
Speaker 2: a huge difference, a most needed difference.
Speaker 4: So thank you for your work, and thank you.
Speaker 9: For coming on. Nick.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 2: And you can find me on YouTube at on as
Speaker 2: the Loon, and you can find me on X where
Speaker 2: I post all the time and I share all the
Speaker 2: Cult Rejects shows I go on live on.
Speaker 4: X and I am the Loon at the Loon fifty
Speaker 4: And thank you again, No.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Robbie Marx Pleisa.
Speaker 5: Yes, thank you for having me on. It was great
Speaker 5: talking to you, doctor Doug, doctor Rachel David, some great stories.
Speaker 5: I'm very interested in picking up the DMT book. But
Speaker 5: I would like to say that I am Robbie Marx,
Speaker 5: artist illustrator. And go check out my link tree which
Speaker 5: is link tree r M A r X and that'll
Speaker 5: pull up my podcast, the Metamind Cast, as well as
Speaker 5: all my social media et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 5: And uh, yeah, this was a great talk, good hanging out.
Speaker 3: Thank you for Robbie. I really appreciate you making it sure. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that was a great show. And like I said again,
Speaker 3: hopefully I get you all back on at some other point.
Speaker 1: There's some really interesting stuff.
Speaker 3: And that's the end of another recall rejects, and until
Speaker 3: the next one, everybody be well.
Speaker 1: Later