WEBVTT 1 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:19.600 Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the trib 2 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:25.440 Cast for December sixteenth. My name is Eleanor Klibanoff, as 3 00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:28.640 always law and politics reporter at the Texas Tribune. We 4 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:31.000 are not joined today by Matthew Watkins, who had to 5 00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:33.600 go out of town, but we are joined by two 6 00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:38.000 very special guests from the Tribunes Education team. We are 7 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:40.320 joined by Jaden Edison Jayden welcome. 8 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:42.119 Back, thank you, glad to be here. 9 00:00:42.679 --> 00:00:45.520 And Snaejda Welcome. I think for the first time to 10 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:47.880 the trip gust second. Second, Oh, did you. 11 00:00:47.799 --> 00:00:49.039 Do the episode on Star Test? 12 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:51.600 I did, which, As we were just discussing before this, 13 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:54.719 Matthew was always pushing to an episode on Star Test. 14 00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:58.159 And I've said this on this podcast before. I think 15 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:00.960 every reporter, every person in this world should be allowed 16 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:04.079 to choose a couple of topics that they don't care about. 17 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:07.280 Otherwise there's too much to care about. And I decided 18 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:09.280 a while ago for me that was gonna be Star Tests. 19 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:12.439 I don't have children. I was like, I care about schools, 20 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:14.079 I care about school takeovers, I care about all of 21 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:16.519 this Star Test. I'm just gonna check out on And 22 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:18.640 so Matthew did that episode while I was out of 23 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:20.680 the country, and. 24 00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:25.519 Then thoughts pro yeah, you know, it is what it is. 25 00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:29.439 Schedule to get away, but apparently not for long enough. 26 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:32.159 I come back and this is what I get, you know, 27 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:37.000 four months later, penalized by having to talk about school 28 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:38.760 ratings and is. 29 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:39.599 A big part of the. 30 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:45.239 Yeah you know, spoiler alert. 31 00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:49.120 We are here today to talk about school takeovers and 32 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:52.599 sort of state intervention on school districts, which we had 33 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:54.400 talked about as an episode of the Trip cast to 34 00:01:54.439 --> 00:01:56.239 do before the end of the year, and then we thought, well, 35 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:59.159 there's so much news happening, we'll like put it off 36 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:00.840 and do it early next year. 37 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:04.799 And then the Text Education Agency said, not so fast. 38 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:07.599 We're gonnd never mind, marry Christmas. 39 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:09.120 We're gonna take over a couple more districts. We're going 40 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:11.080 to put it back in the news. And so really 41 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:13.280 glad you guys are able to join us to help 42 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:15.879 us understand you know what this all means. 43 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:17.400 Sure, glad to be here. 44 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:21.520 So it's been a bumpy year for Texas school districts. 45 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.319 You know, We've had a number of districts, particularly the 46 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:28.840 last couple of weeks, facing state takeovers. We've got others 47 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:31.439 that are, you know, dealing with sort of riple effects 48 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:34.120 of still being under state scrutiny or being sort of 49 00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:36.360 on the precipice of it. The whole system of how 50 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:39.759 we measure schools and how they're doing and how students 51 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:41.639 are doing and testing and all of that has been 52 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:47.319 under a lot of uncertainty. You know, most recently. 53 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:47.879 People have read about this. 54 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:50.840 It's probably because last week the text Education Agency announced 55 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:55.360 they were taking over the Beaumont, Connolly and Lakeworth school districts. 56 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:57.800 We throw this term around a lot, right, like state 57 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:01.919 takeover of a school district, Jayden. What does that mean? 58 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:04.560 Yeah, in simple terms, I would think of it as 59 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:08.039 shifting control of a school district from local control, which 60 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:09.919 we know a lot of people in Texas and nationally 61 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:12.840 really care about, to state control. And so under the 62 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:16.759 Texas context, a state takeover otherwise referred to by the 63 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:19.719 Texas Education Agency as an intervention. Right, they'll actually pushed 64 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:22.280 back on the term takeover, but it's a national term 65 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:25.039 using education, so it's not exclusive to Texas. But nonetheless, 66 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.639 you know, state law allows the Education Commissioner if there's 67 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:32.599 a case where a school district has at least one 68 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:37.120 campus that receives excuse me, five consecutive failing grades in 69 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:42.000 the state's academic accountability system. It basically triggers, you know, 70 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:45.759 a decision by the commissioner either close the campus or 71 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:49.599 replace the local school district with what's known as a 72 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:52.039 board of managers, which are basically state appointed, So those 73 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:55.919 are going to be appointed by the commissioner, and many 74 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.360 of these cases too, it's a new superintendent as well, 75 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:02.879 and also what's as a conservator, which basically, you know, 76 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:04.879 that role you know, has a lot of authority to 77 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:08.680 really make sure that during the transition. Beyond that, you know, 78 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:10.719 elected school board members and others are doing what they 79 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:13.960 need to do to to basically comply with whatever the 80 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:17.519 academic turn around plan is. So again, it's it's it's 81 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:19.959 more nuanced than just quote unquote takeover. But I think, 82 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:23.560 you know, in simple terms, the shift from local control 83 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:26.680 to state control, you know, of the governance of the district. 84 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:30.839 I think what Jayden is saying is really key here 85 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:35.319 because education for has so long been really decisions that 86 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:37.959 have been made at a local level. It's primarily been 87 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:41.720 driven by local decisions created by a local made by 88 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:44.600 a local school board and that is elected by the 89 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:47.040 community that they are meant to serve. And so what 90 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:53.399 we're having is increasingly so the Texas Education Agency Commissioner 91 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:57.639 come in and out that entire democratically elected school board 92 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:01.920 and appoint his peace ball who are making then decisions 93 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:04.920 about communities across the state. So we're seeing more of 94 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:07.600 an influence of like this, the state coming in and 95 00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:11.759 making decisions about how classrooms are run and how how 96 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:12.800 students are being taught. 97 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:15.279 And I think if people feel like, well, this is 98 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:17.560 like feels like this is happening a lot more recently, 99 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:20.120 Like this certainly was like not something I knew about 100 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:23.079 like growing up. I mean, this is some a relatively 101 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:26.759 new phenomenon, right. The legislature empowered the Text Education Agency 102 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:29.600 to take over districts or to sort of step in 103 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:35.160 when a school is continually failing in twenty fifteen. Soon 104 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:38.800 after that, Mike Marath became the Text Education Agency Commissioner. 105 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:40.839 You know who is Marath? 106 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:43.079 And like, what sort of role has he played in 107 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:45.519 this these recent takeovers that we've seen. 108 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:47.759 Yeah, so a couple things too. I would note that 109 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:51.279 you're right that in twenty fifteen, you know, a new 110 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:54.360 state law kind of created the scenario that we're talking 111 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:57.199 about now with you know, either closing the campus or 112 00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:00.079 you know, initiate a full you know scale takeover or 113 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:02.639 I should know before that though, you know, the Education 114 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:05.600 Agency actually you know, they provided data dating back as 115 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:07.639 far as two thousand, right that that kind of tracks 116 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:09.639 that you know, formerly a lot of these kind of 117 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:13.279 interventions and takeovers, which is also the case nationally as well. 118 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:16.920 So they've more so been related to like financial challenges, 119 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:19.839 physical challenges, and so what we've seen, you know, since 120 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:22.079 the twenty fifteen law is a shift to more of 121 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:27.519 those takeovers being about academic academic poor academic performance, right, 122 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:29.120 you know, by the district. And so we've seen that 123 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:31.959 in places like Houston more recently obviously in Fort Worthing 124 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:34.279 then obviously the three that we're talking about here. But yeah, 125 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:36.759 I mean talk about Education Commissioner Mike Marath. You know, 126 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:39.879 he's a really interesting guy. He's very you know, I 127 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:43.040 always think he's very data centered, and he's a systems guy. Right, 128 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:46.480 he's an entrepreneur, you know. Background, right, he was a 129 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:48.800 member of the Dallas Sized d school Board before he 130 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:51.360 became the Education Commissioner and so you have to almost 131 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:53.399 look at it from his perspective. He looks at things 132 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:55.879 through the lens of systems, right, and you know, when 133 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:57.560 you're in the business world, you're thinking about, well, if 134 00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:00.600 something isn't happening, you know, what's the reason for that? 135 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:02.279 And a lot of times, you know, the Commission's going 136 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:04.439 to point the governments. Right, He's going to look at, 137 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:06.360 you know, what are the trends that we're seeing in 138 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:09.000 the district. You know, you know, maybe it is one 139 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:11.079 campus that triggers the intervention. But if you actually if 140 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:13.319 you read his letters, he kind of talks about some 141 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:15.600 of the you know, longer term trends, like, for example, 142 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:17.759 if you have a district that has multiple years of 143 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:21.000 failing campuses or you know has seen you know, various 144 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:23.639 struggles and whatnot. You know, he's been very clear in 145 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:25.759 his letters and his messaging to the districts that he 146 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:28.839 sees that as a failure of the school boards and 147 00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:32.720 leadership and so interesting dynamic there. And again there's a 148 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:34.279 lot a lot of people don't necessarily see it the 149 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:36.240 same way. There is new wants to that, but that 150 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:38.360 is kind of who he is and how he how 151 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:40.480 he's looking at it and how he's articulated his reasoning 152 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:43.199 for feeling like these interventions are necessary. 153 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:47.160 Yeah. I think folks in Marat's camps, we think of 154 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:49.639 them as like pro accountability. They'll say, you know, at 155 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:52.439 a certain point, there needs to be a threshold for 156 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:55.720 if a school is not if students are not performing 157 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:57.800 well enough on tests, it means that they do not 158 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:00.920 have the skills that they need to succeed later on 159 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:03.160 in life, and so the school is not serving those 160 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:05.399 students at least in that way. And so there needs 161 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:08.560 to be a certain threshold where we decide, you know, 162 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:10.759 a school is not doing a school district is not 163 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:14.079 doing enough, or they need help, and the state is 164 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:17.360 positioned with its resources to come in and provide that 165 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:21.160 like extra support. But that threshold you mentioned the twenty 166 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:24.639 fifteen law that really changed, and so now we've decided 167 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:28.199 five five failing ratings at one campus is enough for 168 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:32.480 a whole district to be taken over. I think some 169 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:35.399 of the controversy is, you know, it is one it 170 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:37.759 is one campus, and so when you have these giant 171 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:40.759 school districts, we're seeing some of our biggest school districts 172 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:44.600 in Texas being taken over Houston and Fort Worth. There's 173 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:48.320 there's questions coming up about like should one school alone 174 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:53.600 be enough for an entire district to lose all its 175 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:54.399 local control? 176 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:58.039 Right, I mean, you guys heard about this in as 177 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:00.320 just like one example of like the Beaumont district which 178 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:02.120 was recently now is facing takeover. 179 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:03.720 I guess they have a chance to appeal. There's like 180 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:04.919 a lot of steps yeah. 181 00:09:04.759 --> 00:09:08.799 There, yeah, you know, they have two school districts. I mean, 182 00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:11.679 Beaumont a decent sized city, They've got two schools. I 183 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:14.399 should say that I had five years of failing grades. 184 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:17.559 You know, the elementary school that they're looking at has 185 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:20.360 never earned an acceptable rating. The middle school has gone 186 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:25.320 eleven years without one. The president of the school board said, 187 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:28.200 you know, they were working on it. They're trying to 188 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:32.440 like improve this. It's a process they you know. He 189 00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:33.919 says sort of like, well, why are we taking over 190 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:36.759 the whole school district instead of shutting down those two campuses. 191 00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:38.639 It does sound like, I mean, generally speaking, the board 192 00:09:38.679 --> 00:09:41.039 would have the authority to shut down that those campuses. 193 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:43.480 They're sort of saying, well, we're working on it. We're 194 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:47.279 trying to like fix these I mean, I think it 195 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:49.360 is like under parents are like, I don't want my 196 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:50.840 kid to go to a failing school. I don't want 197 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.080 my kid to like you know, how how do people 198 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:56.960 sort of talk about balancing this need for like like 199 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:01.360 you said, we do need school to be performing with 200 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:05.519 like the whole district needs to be taken over just 201 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:10.240 sort of ameliorate maybe problems at a couple of schools. 202 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:13.000 You know, I wouldn't know one thing, you know, I 203 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:15.440 think this whole conversation, you know, I mentioned earlier that 204 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:17.360 there is nuance to it because I think on the 205 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:19.840 flip side of where the commissioner is coming from is 206 00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:23.039 you look at the reality of education and educating children. 207 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:25.919 It's really hard, right. It's not like a business per se, right, 208 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:29.120 where you know, kids are not a commodity, right, It's like, 209 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:31.919 you know, you need time and investment in things of 210 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:33.919 those nature, things of that nature. And if you look 211 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.120 at the characteristics actually of the three schools that were 212 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:39.480 taken over, and we've also seen this, you know, trend 213 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:42.639 wise and also in Fort Worth and in Houston, these 214 00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:46.600 are districts with significantly high numbers of students who come 215 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:49.240 from lower income households right free or reduced lunch, which 216 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:51.000 is an indicator of poverty in the state. And you 217 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:53.799 know at the federal level as well, these are districts 218 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:58.879 that have a majority Black and Hispanic student populations as well. 219 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:02.559 And so what that makes me think automatically as a reporter, 220 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:05.679 I come in, I start thinking about, Okay, we know that, 221 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:10.639 you know, poverty has an impact on how students perform. Right. 222 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:14.240 You look at the remarks from the from the Beaumont 223 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:18.120 you know school board member. He mentioned, for example, you 224 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:20.840 know we need more family engagement, right, that could help 225 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:24.320 us kind of fix this issue. Okay, you look at 226 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:26.600 family engagement. Let's let's unpack that a little bit, right, Like, 227 00:11:27.080 --> 00:11:28.960 you know, if you have a family, for example, and 228 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:31.840 we know these existing Texas families who work multiple jobs, 229 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:33.919 right and may not have the ability to sit at 230 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.519 home after school and read to their child or you know, 231 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.480 to do the things that also have proven to boost 232 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:46.360 academic performance. Then is that necessarily a failure of the 233 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:48.679 school district or is it is it a collective kind 234 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.240 of effort, you know, collaboration between family, the school, you know, 235 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:54.559 community resources, things of that nature. And so that's why 236 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:56.080 I say it's a little bit more nuanced I think 237 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:58.360 when we talk about this, and this is why these 238 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:01.159 are controversial nationally, right, I mean, look at I was 239 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:03.919 actually before our conversation just refreshing myself on some of 240 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:06.679 the national date on this, and it was really interesting 241 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:09.080 because you know, there was a study I think it 242 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:12.240 was looking at like thirty five takeovers between like sometime 243 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:16.399 in the twenty tens, and it was shown on average 244 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.519 to not really boost you know, academic achievement in math 245 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:24.519 and reading, but also it had shown kind of harmful effects, 246 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:29.000 particularly on majority black school districts. And it's not in 247 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:30.960 the same thing when it comes to fiscal challenges for 248 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:34.000 majority black school districts, not necessarily the same for other groups, right, 249 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:36.600 And so it's just so much more nuance when we 250 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:39.480 talk about education and say, how I let you chime in, 251 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:41.519 but it's just interesting to me, like when we talk 252 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:44.360 about these oftentimes it's about you hear people talk about 253 00:12:44.360 --> 00:12:47.159 governance and you know they try to compare districts of 254 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:50.240 similar kind of demographic makeups. But again, education is just 255 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:53.600 so nuanced, and every why a kid is not achieving, 256 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:56.240 it's not always necessarily because of the district or a teacher. 257 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.399 Maybe it is, but it's just more nuanced than that. 258 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:02.559 And just for context, we talked a little bit about Beaumont. 259 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:05.679 So all of the four school districts that have been 260 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:08.360 taken over this year, at the school, the one campus 261 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:12.639 that triggered that takeover, the campuses that triggered those takeovers, 262 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:16.960 we're all serving predominantly black and brown students, and we're 263 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:20.879 in predominantly low income areas, and so it's you know, 264 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:23.639 we if is it's a question of like is a 265 00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:27.080 takeover a one size fits all solution? Like can we 266 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:30.639 really use that as a measure to go into communities, 267 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:33.639 especially when we now have this pattern of these are 268 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:37.639 communities that tend to have less resources, or maybe these 269 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:40.279 are communities that are just are struggling to serve their 270 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:45.559 students for different reasons. That all contribute that show up 271 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.039 in the academic results, but there are bigger root. 272 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:51.399 Causes, which I think goes to this broader question right 273 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:54.320 that the state has been grappling with. I think nationally 274 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:56.840 we've been grappling with this right for a long time, 275 00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:59.320 which is like, how do you measure how a school 276 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.120 is performing? And often that comes to how do you 277 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:05.200 measure how like a student is learning. But as we 278 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:06.759 were choking aout before, like a big part of this 279 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.279 is the Star test, right, Like how do we measure 280 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:12.720 I don't know. I send my kid to first grade 281 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:14.919 and I want them to be ready to go to 282 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:15.559 second grade. 283 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:16.960 How do I know if they're doing that? 284 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:19.960 And then more importantly, I want to move to a 285 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.879 school district where if my kid goes into first grade, 286 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:25.360 they'll be leaving, you know, ready to do second grade. 287 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:28.879 Like how do I assess if a district is good 288 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:31.840 or performing? Which seems to your point, like on the 289 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:34.600 system's front, like so straightforward, right, just like we'll test 290 00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:37.240 them all, tell us if they're if they're doing well 291 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:41.360 or not. It is so much more complicated than that, snayha. 292 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:42.840 Can you tell us a little bit about like this 293 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:45.159 battle over accountability ratings? 294 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:48.440 Yeah, I think when we talk about school accountability and 295 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:51.360 the accountability system, it's really a question of how do 296 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:54.799 we measure like whether schools are successful and serving as 297 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.360 students and what does it mean to truly serve serve students? 298 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:00.799 And I think to your point, alan Or like testing 299 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:04.240 is kind of the easiest metric. You have a standardized test, 300 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:06.639 you can apply it to all students, and I think 301 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:10.600 there is legitimacy to that, and you want students to 302 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:14.120 have those like math and reading skills that they need 303 00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:17.600 to go on to be ready for college, to get 304 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:20.080 the jobs that they want to get that are high 305 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.519 paying and will help them create the life that they 306 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:26.200 want after they leave the school systems. But there's other 307 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:30.879 metrics too, right, like things like social emotional well being, 308 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:34.720 like how students are are like showing up to class mentally, 309 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:37.240 like their mental health, how that's doing, and all that 310 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:42.039 is way harder to measure, right there's no standardized metric 311 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:46.639 for that, and so then it becomes this complicated thing. 312 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:49.240 And so I think there's really been a push in 313 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:53.519 Texas to think about other measures that go beyond testing 314 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.519 in our accountability system, and the state is kind of 315 00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:00.000 right now. The legislature has directed them to sort of 316 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:02.720 explore some of that, but we haven't seen that really 317 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:07.200 fully implement implemented in the accountability system like as it 318 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:11.159 stands right now, even with the legislation that passed this 319 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.919 past legislative session, standardized testing is still the major major metric, 320 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:19.240 and that was the standardized test, even though it is 321 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:20.039 being overhauled. 322 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:20.799 We have to see. 323 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:22.720 It still remains to be seen in the effects that 324 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:26.600 will have. But that is a widely unpopular test because 325 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:29.200 of the pressure it puts on students, because some people 326 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.000 don't feel like it's a good metric of how students 327 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:32.559 are doing. 328 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:35.639 And just to and also to add to that over 329 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:38.080 the story earlier this year, looking at the fort Worth 330 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:41.879 takeover specifically, and you know how the Star Test, you know, 331 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:45.320 plays an outsize role and really determining you know, the 332 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.039 academic accountabilit system plays it. It's a huge factor in it, right, 333 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:50.679 and it was a testing I went back and looked 334 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:52.840 at some of the statements from lawmakers, right, and there 335 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:56.519 seem to be consensus, right, that belief that the Star 336 00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:59.600 test had set students up to fail. Right, not my words, right, 337 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:03.720 the words of actual lawmakers who who voted to phase 338 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:07.880 out this test by twenty twenty seven. And so I 339 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:10.240 think a lot of that belief too. You mentioned the 340 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:13.400 unpopularity of the test. It's not just so much the 341 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:15.720 Start test as it is like the culture of you know, 342 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:18.200 kind of high stakes testing right where it's like, you know, 343 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:21.039 what is to your point, what is the goal of education? Right? 344 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:24.960 Is it to teach students critical thinking skills or is 345 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:28.039 it to you know, get them to achieve on tests, right, 346 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:30.039 And some people may argue where those things are kind 347 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:31.839 of you know, tied together, but there are other people 348 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:33.960 who see it differently, and so it's just a but 349 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:36.720 it goes back to talk about conversations between local and 350 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:39.039 state control, right. It's going to vary about community. There 351 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:42.039 are some communities who may think that, you know, standardized 352 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.079 testing is the way they want student performance to be measured. 353 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:47.480 And then you have other communities elsewhere who think it's 354 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:50.559 more nuanced, right, like who they want to make sure 355 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:52.559 that their kids are you know, well rounded people who 356 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.640 are not just exceptional students, but exceptional people in the world. 357 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:57.200 We hear that a lot too, And I remember that 358 00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:59.160 from a story I did some months ago, and so 359 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:02.559 just more once. And I think locally, community by community 360 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:04.880 is going to vary in terms of what values people 361 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:05.759 hold about education. 362 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:08.960 I spent some time in a neighborhood in Austin that 363 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.559 was really like, it's a predominantly refugee immigrant community and 364 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.480 they aren't Austin isn't facing it takeover yet. But this 365 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:18.920 one school, this one middle school, along with a couple 366 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.400 others in the Austin school district is close to that 367 00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:25.880 back threshold. They're at about FLOORA now, and the parents 368 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:31.079 were devastated that, you know, the district was considering shutting 369 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:33.880 them down. They were fighting to stay open. They knew 370 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.720 that their kids weren't performing well on the standardized test, 371 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:39.839 but they said they were telling me, hey, this is 372 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:44.160 not a fair metric. Our kids. English is their first language. 373 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:47.079 They can't even really like understand this test that they're taking. 374 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:49.720 And also like we show up every day, we are 375 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:53.119 really engaged in the teachers are serving our students in 376 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:55.720 a way that is different than just a test. They 377 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:59.319 feel well, the students feel welcome, they feel safe, they're 378 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:02.279 older that graduated from that middle school went on to 379 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:06.359 do be successful. And so it was this this disconnect 380 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:09.480 where you know, they were feeling this this school district 381 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:11.920 in the state, they were feeling this pressure coming down 382 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:14.319 on them saying the school is not doing good enough. 383 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:16.720 But it was the community that was saying, actually, we 384 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:19.079 think they are doing a great job. We don't want 385 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:22.279 leadership to change. So you do see these these tensions 386 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:23.160 come into play. 387 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:24.920 Yeah, I mean it makes sense, right, Like if you 388 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:28.799 have a district or a specific school that's serving you know, 389 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:32.039 children who you know, maybe are English language learners or 390 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:34.480 their parents or English language learners. Like, you know, you're 391 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:36.480 just dealing with a different set of challenges or you know, 392 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:39.079 like you said, a district that is you know, children 393 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:41.359 are showing up hungry, they're showing up, you know, like 394 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.480 they're having housing instability, they're dealing with like all of 395 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.759 these challenges to say, like, well, how do they perform 396 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:50.079 on this test versus you know, these kids who are 397 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:51.599 maybe like their parents are reading to them from a 398 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:54.519 very young age, they you know, maybe are able to 399 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:59.400 have you know, more robust sort of before they come 400 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.880 to school, more robust education, Like they're shown up with 401 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:06.279