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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the trib

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Cast for December sixteenth. My name is Eleanor Klibanoff, as

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always law and politics reporter at the Texas Tribune. We

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are not joined today by Matthew Watkins, who had to

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go out of town, but we are joined by two

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very special guests from the Tribunes Education team. We are

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joined by Jaden Edison Jayden welcome.

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Speaker 2: Back, thank you, glad to be here.

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Speaker 1: And Snaejda Welcome. I think for the first time to

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the trip gust second. Second, Oh, did you.

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Speaker 3: Do the episode on Star Test?

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Speaker 1: I did, which, As we were just discussing before this,

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Matthew was always pushing to an episode on Star Test.

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And I've said this on this podcast before. I think

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every reporter, every person in this world should be allowed

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to choose a couple of topics that they don't care about.

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Otherwise there's too much to care about. And I decided

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a while ago for me that was gonna be Star Tests.

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I don't have children. I was like, I care about schools,

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I care about school takeovers, I care about all of

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this Star Test. I'm just gonna check out on And

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so Matthew did that episode while I was out of

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the country, and.

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Speaker 2: Then thoughts pro yeah, you know, it is what it is.

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Speaker 4: Schedule to get away, but apparently not for long enough.

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Speaker 1: I come back and this is what I get, you know,

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four months later, penalized by having to talk about school

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ratings and is.

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Speaker 2: A big part of the.

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Speaker 3: Yeah you know, spoiler alert.

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Speaker 1: We are here today to talk about school takeovers and

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sort of state intervention on school districts, which we had

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talked about as an episode of the Trip cast to

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do before the end of the year, and then we thought, well,

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there's so much news happening, we'll like put it off

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and do it early next year.

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Speaker 3: And then the Text Education Agency said, not so fast.

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Speaker 4: We're gonnd never mind, marry Christmas.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna take over a couple more districts. We're going

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to put it back in the news. And so really

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glad you guys are able to join us to help

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us understand you know what this all means.

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Speaker 2: Sure, glad to be here.

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Speaker 1: So it's been a bumpy year for Texas school districts.

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You know, We've had a number of districts, particularly the

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last couple of weeks, facing state takeovers. We've got others

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that are, you know, dealing with sort of riple effects

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of still being under state scrutiny or being sort of

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on the precipice of it. The whole system of how

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we measure schools and how they're doing and how students

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are doing and testing and all of that has been

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under a lot of uncertainty. You know, most recently.

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Speaker 3: People have read about this.

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Speaker 1: It's probably because last week the text Education Agency announced

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they were taking over the Beaumont, Connolly and Lakeworth school districts.

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We throw this term around a lot, right, like state

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takeover of a school district, Jayden. What does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in simple terms, I would think of it as

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shifting control of a school district from local control, which

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we know a lot of people in Texas and nationally

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really care about, to state control. And so under the

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Texas context, a state takeover otherwise referred to by the

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Texas Education Agency as an intervention. Right, they'll actually pushed

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back on the term takeover, but it's a national term

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using education, so it's not exclusive to Texas. But nonetheless,

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you know, state law allows the Education Commissioner if there's

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a case where a school district has at least one

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campus that receives excuse me, five consecutive failing grades in

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the state's academic accountability system. It basically triggers, you know,

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a decision by the commissioner either close the campus or

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replace the local school district with what's known as a

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board of managers, which are basically state appointed, So those

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are going to be appointed by the commissioner, and many

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of these cases too, it's a new superintendent as well,

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and also what's as a conservator, which basically, you know,

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that role you know, has a lot of authority to

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really make sure that during the transition. Beyond that, you know,

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elected school board members and others are doing what they

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need to do to to basically comply with whatever the

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academic turn around plan is. So again, it's it's it's

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more nuanced than just quote unquote takeover. But I think,

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you know, in simple terms, the shift from local control

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to state control, you know, of the governance of the district.

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Speaker 4: I think what Jayden is saying is really key here

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because education for has so long been really decisions that

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have been made at a local level. It's primarily been

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driven by local decisions created by a local made by

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a local school board and that is elected by the

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community that they are meant to serve. And so what

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we're having is increasingly so the Texas Education Agency Commissioner

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come in and out that entire democratically elected school board

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and appoint his peace ball who are making then decisions

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about communities across the state. So we're seeing more of

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an influence of like this, the state coming in and

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making decisions about how classrooms are run and how how

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students are being taught.

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Speaker 1: And I think if people feel like, well, this is

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like feels like this is happening a lot more recently,

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Like this certainly was like not something I knew about

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like growing up. I mean, this is some a relatively

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new phenomenon, right. The legislature empowered the Text Education Agency

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to take over districts or to sort of step in

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when a school is continually failing in twenty fifteen. Soon

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after that, Mike Marath became the Text Education Agency Commissioner.

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Speaker 3: You know who is Marath?

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Speaker 1: And like, what sort of role has he played in

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this these recent takeovers that we've seen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so a couple things too. I would note that

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you're right that in twenty fifteen, you know, a new

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state law kind of created the scenario that we're talking

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about now with you know, either closing the campus or

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you know, initiate a full you know scale takeover or

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I should know before that though, you know, the Education

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Agency actually you know, they provided data dating back as

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far as two thousand, right that that kind of tracks

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that you know, formerly a lot of these kind of

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interventions and takeovers, which is also the case nationally as well.

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So they've more so been related to like financial challenges,

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physical challenges, and so what we've seen, you know, since

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the twenty fifteen law is a shift to more of

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those takeovers being about academic academic poor academic performance, right,

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you know, by the district. And so we've seen that

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in places like Houston more recently obviously in Fort Worthing

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then obviously the three that we're talking about here. But yeah,

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I mean talk about Education Commissioner Mike Marath. You know,

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he's a really interesting guy. He's very you know, I

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always think he's very data centered, and he's a systems guy. Right,

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he's an entrepreneur, you know. Background, right, he was a

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member of the Dallas Sized d school Board before he

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became the Education Commissioner and so you have to almost

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look at it from his perspective. He looks at things

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through the lens of systems, right, and you know, when

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you're in the business world, you're thinking about, well, if

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something isn't happening, you know, what's the reason for that?

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And a lot of times, you know, the Commission's going

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to point the governments. Right, He's going to look at,

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you know, what are the trends that we're seeing in

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the district. You know, you know, maybe it is one

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campus that triggers the intervention. But if you actually if

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you read his letters, he kind of talks about some

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of the you know, longer term trends, like, for example,

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if you have a district that has multiple years of

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failing campuses or you know has seen you know, various

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struggles and whatnot. You know, he's been very clear in

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his letters and his messaging to the districts that he

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sees that as a failure of the school boards and

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leadership and so interesting dynamic there. And again there's a

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lot a lot of people don't necessarily see it the

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same way. There is new wants to that, but that

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is kind of who he is and how he how

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he's looking at it and how he's articulated his reasoning

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for feeling like these interventions are necessary.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I think folks in Marat's camps, we think of

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them as like pro accountability. They'll say, you know, at

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a certain point, there needs to be a threshold for

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if a school is not if students are not performing

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well enough on tests, it means that they do not

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have the skills that they need to succeed later on

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in life, and so the school is not serving those

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students at least in that way. And so there needs

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to be a certain threshold where we decide, you know,

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a school is not doing a school district is not

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doing enough, or they need help, and the state is

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positioned with its resources to come in and provide that

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like extra support. But that threshold you mentioned the twenty

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fifteen law that really changed, and so now we've decided

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five five failing ratings at one campus is enough for

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a whole district to be taken over. I think some

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of the controversy is, you know, it is one it

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is one campus, and so when you have these giant

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school districts, we're seeing some of our biggest school districts

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in Texas being taken over Houston and Fort Worth. There's

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there's questions coming up about like should one school alone

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be enough for an entire district to lose all its

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local control?

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Speaker 1: Right, I mean, you guys heard about this in as

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just like one example of like the Beaumont district which

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was recently now is facing takeover.

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Speaker 3: I guess they have a chance to appeal. There's like

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a lot of steps yeah.

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Speaker 1: There, yeah, you know, they have two school districts. I mean,

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Beaumont a decent sized city, They've got two schools. I

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should say that I had five years of failing grades.

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You know, the elementary school that they're looking at has

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never earned an acceptable rating. The middle school has gone

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eleven years without one. The president of the school board said,

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you know, they were working on it. They're trying to

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like improve this. It's a process they you know. He

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says sort of like, well, why are we taking over

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the whole school district instead of shutting down those two campuses.

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It does sound like, I mean, generally speaking, the board

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would have the authority to shut down that those campuses.

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They're sort of saying, well, we're working on it. We're

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trying to like fix these I mean, I think it

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is like under parents are like, I don't want my

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kid to go to a failing school. I don't want

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my kid to like you know, how how do people

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sort of talk about balancing this need for like like

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you said, we do need school to be performing with

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like the whole district needs to be taken over just

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sort of ameliorate maybe problems at a couple of schools.

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Speaker 2: You know, I wouldn't know one thing, you know, I

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think this whole conversation, you know, I mentioned earlier that

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there is nuance to it because I think on the

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flip side of where the commissioner is coming from is

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you look at the reality of education and educating children.

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It's really hard, right. It's not like a business per se, right,

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where you know, kids are not a commodity, right, It's like,

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you know, you need time and investment in things of

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those nature, things of that nature. And if you look

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at the characteristics actually of the three schools that were

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taken over, and we've also seen this, you know, trend

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wise and also in Fort Worth and in Houston, these

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are districts with significantly high numbers of students who come

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from lower income households right free or reduced lunch, which

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is an indicator of poverty in the state. And you

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know at the federal level as well, these are districts

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that have a majority Black and Hispanic student populations as well.

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And so what that makes me think automatically as a reporter,

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I come in, I start thinking about, Okay, we know that,

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you know, poverty has an impact on how students perform. Right.

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You look at the remarks from the from the Beaumont

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you know school board member. He mentioned, for example, you

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know we need more family engagement, right, that could help

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us kind of fix this issue. Okay, you look at

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family engagement. Let's let's unpack that a little bit, right, Like,

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you know, if you have a family, for example, and

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we know these existing Texas families who work multiple jobs,

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right and may not have the ability to sit at

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home after school and read to their child or you know,

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to do the things that also have proven to boost

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academic performance. Then is that necessarily a failure of the

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school district or is it is it a collective kind

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of effort, you know, collaboration between family, the school, you know,

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community resources, things of that nature. And so that's why

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I say it's a little bit more nuanced I think

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when we talk about this, and this is why these

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are controversial nationally, right, I mean, look at I was

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actually before our conversation just refreshing myself on some of

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the national date on this, and it was really interesting

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because you know, there was a study I think it

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was looking at like thirty five takeovers between like sometime

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in the twenty tens, and it was shown on average

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to not really boost you know, academic achievement in math

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and reading, but also it had shown kind of harmful effects,

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particularly on majority black school districts. And it's not in

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the same thing when it comes to fiscal challenges for

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majority black school districts, not necessarily the same for other groups, right,

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And so it's just so much more nuance when we

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talk about education and say, how I let you chime in,

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but it's just interesting to me, like when we talk

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about these oftentimes it's about you hear people talk about

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governance and you know they try to compare districts of

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similar kind of demographic makeups. But again, education is just

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so nuanced, and every why a kid is not achieving,

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it's not always necessarily because of the district or a teacher.

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Maybe it is, but it's just more nuanced than that.

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Speaker 4: And just for context, we talked a little bit about Beaumont.

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So all of the four school districts that have been

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taken over this year, at the school, the one campus

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that triggered that takeover, the campuses that triggered those takeovers,

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we're all serving predominantly black and brown students, and we're

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in predominantly low income areas, and so it's you know,

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we if is it's a question of like is a

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takeover a one size fits all solution? Like can we

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really use that as a measure to go into communities,

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especially when we now have this pattern of these are

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communities that tend to have less resources, or maybe these

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are communities that are just are struggling to serve their

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students for different reasons. That all contribute that show up

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in the academic results, but there are bigger root.

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Speaker 1: Causes, which I think goes to this broader question right

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that the state has been grappling with. I think nationally

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we've been grappling with this right for a long time,

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which is like, how do you measure how a school

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is performing? And often that comes to how do you

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measure how like a student is learning. But as we

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were choking aout before, like a big part of this

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is the Star test, right, Like how do we measure

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I don't know. I send my kid to first grade

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and I want them to be ready to go to

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second grade.

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Speaker 3: How do I know if they're doing that?

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Speaker 1: And then more importantly, I want to move to a

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school district where if my kid goes into first grade,

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they'll be leaving, you know, ready to do second grade.

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Like how do I assess if a district is good

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or performing? Which seems to your point, like on the

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system's front, like so straightforward, right, just like we'll test

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them all, tell us if they're if they're doing well

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or not. It is so much more complicated than that, snayha.

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Can you tell us a little bit about like this

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battle over accountability ratings?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think when we talk about school accountability and

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the accountability system, it's really a question of how do

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we measure like whether schools are successful and serving as

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students and what does it mean to truly serve serve students?

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And I think to your point, alan Or like testing

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is kind of the easiest metric. You have a standardized test,

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you can apply it to all students, and I think

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there is legitimacy to that, and you want students to

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have those like math and reading skills that they need

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to go on to be ready for college, to get

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the jobs that they want to get that are high

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paying and will help them create the life that they

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want after they leave the school systems. But there's other

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metrics too, right, like things like social emotional well being,

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like how students are are like showing up to class mentally,

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like their mental health, how that's doing, and all that

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is way harder to measure, right there's no standardized metric

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for that, and so then it becomes this complicated thing.

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And so I think there's really been a push in

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Texas to think about other measures that go beyond testing

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in our accountability system, and the state is kind of

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right now. The legislature has directed them to sort of

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explore some of that, but we haven't seen that really

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fully implement implemented in the accountability system like as it

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stands right now, even with the legislation that passed this

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past legislative session, standardized testing is still the major major metric,

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and that was the standardized test, even though it is

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being overhauled.

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Speaker 3: We have to see.

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Speaker 4: It still remains to be seen in the effects that

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will have. But that is a widely unpopular test because

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of the pressure it puts on students, because some people

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don't feel like it's a good metric of how students

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are doing.

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Speaker 2: And just to and also to add to that over

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the story earlier this year, looking at the fort Worth

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takeover specifically, and you know how the Star Test, you know,

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plays an outsize role and really determining you know, the

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academic accountabilit system plays it. It's a huge factor in it, right,

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and it was a testing I went back and looked

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at some of the statements from lawmakers, right, and there

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seem to be consensus, right, that belief that the Star

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test had set students up to fail. Right, not my words, right,

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the words of actual lawmakers who who voted to phase

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out this test by twenty twenty seven. And so I

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think a lot of that belief too. You mentioned the

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unpopularity of the test. It's not just so much the

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Start test as it is like the culture of you know,

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kind of high stakes testing right where it's like, you know,

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what is to your point, what is the goal of education? Right?

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Is it to teach students critical thinking skills or is

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it to you know, get them to achieve on tests, right,

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And some people may argue where those things are kind

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of you know, tied together, but there are other people

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who see it differently, and so it's just a but

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it goes back to talk about conversations between local and

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state control, right. It's going to vary about community. There

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are some communities who may think that, you know, standardized

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testing is the way they want student performance to be measured.

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And then you have other communities elsewhere who think it's

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more nuanced, right, like who they want to make sure

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that their kids are you know, well rounded people who

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are not just exceptional students, but exceptional people in the world.

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We hear that a lot too, And I remember that

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from a story I did some months ago, and so

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just more once. And I think locally, community by community

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is going to vary in terms of what values people

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hold about education.

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Speaker 4: I spent some time in a neighborhood in Austin that

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was really like, it's a predominantly refugee immigrant community and

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they aren't Austin isn't facing it takeover yet. But this

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one school, this one middle school, along with a couple

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others in the Austin school district is close to that

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back threshold. They're at about FLOORA now, and the parents

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were devastated that, you know, the district was considering shutting

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them down. They were fighting to stay open. They knew

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that their kids weren't performing well on the standardized test,

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but they said they were telling me, hey, this is

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not a fair metric. Our kids. English is their first language.

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They can't even really like understand this test that they're taking.

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And also like we show up every day, we are

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really engaged in the teachers are serving our students in

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a way that is different than just a test. They

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feel well, the students feel welcome, they feel safe, they're

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older that graduated from that middle school went on to

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do be successful. And so it was this this disconnect

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where you know, they were feeling this this school district

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in the state, they were feeling this pressure coming down

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on them saying the school is not doing good enough.

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But it was the community that was saying, actually, we

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think they are doing a great job. We don't want

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leadership to change. So you do see these these tensions

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come into play.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it makes sense, right, Like if you

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have a district or a specific school that's serving you know,

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children who you know, maybe are English language learners or

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their parents or English language learners. Like, you know, you're

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just dealing with a different set of challenges or you know,

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like you said, a district that is you know, children

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are showing up hungry, they're showing up, you know, like

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they're having housing instability, they're dealing with like all of

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these challenges to say, like, well, how do they perform

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on this test versus you know, these kids who are

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maybe like their parents are reading to them from a

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very young age, they you know, maybe are able to

399
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have you know, more robust sort of before they come

400
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to school, more robust education, Like they're shown up with

401
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,279
all the best tools and everything, Like how do we

402
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put those next to each other and say, well, that's

403
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enough for us to take over. But then you know,

404
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it's like this is the sort of inherent tension the

405
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state certainly is grappling with. And to your point, like legislators,

406
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it seems like really are grappling with this, right Like

407
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there's I think we sometimes you know, give our legislators

408
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a hard time for like some times just like throwing

409
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up their hands at these complicated issues or not like

410
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digging in on them to find like a reasonable solution.

411
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It does sound like where we are now is everyone

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sort of agreeing at least with the testing, we need

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a better solution.

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Speaker 3: We don't know what that is.

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Speaker 1: I mean, are there any examples that either guys have

416
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encountered like nationally or things you're hearing from lawmakers and

417
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experts on like how should we be measuring schools?

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Speaker 3: Is there any good model for this?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting the first thing that comes to

420
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mind when you ask the question, aside from there's been

421
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really good reporting from places like Text Monthly and others

422
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that have kind of gone locally and looked at how

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you know, there's like coalitions of districts in the state

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that are kind of wrestling with this very issue and

425
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topic and really trying to find ways to be more innovative,

426
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innovative with their kind of local accountability you know, indicators

427
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and things of that nature. But you know, I would

428
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actually go to the state school voucher program because it's

429
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,039
it's an interesting place to start. And the reason I

430
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say that is because nationally, right and we've seen this

431
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more as these programs have grown in side obviously Texas

432
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is you know, huge in this in this conversation now

433
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is we've seen more and more of a shift over

434
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the years from hey, we shouldn't be measuring the success

435
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of these programs by standardized testing. We should be looking

436
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at measures like parents satisfaction. You know, we should be

437
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looking at you know, at trip that's actually more recently.

438
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You know, one of the ed choice representatives, you know,

439
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huge you know, uh, you know, school valuer, school choice

440
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kind of supporter, you know, he he cited like high

441
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school graduation rates and things of that nature. Right, metrics

442
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that really go beyond kind of testing infrastructure and puts

443
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it more in the hands of like parents and families

444
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and what they feel is most important. You compare and

445
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contrast that, though, to the most recent legislative session, where

446
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you've had people to say, hey, when it comes to accountability,

447
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,640
you've you've agreed through policy that we should be taking

448
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,759
a more holistic view of this. Right, we should be

449
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considering more things like what do local communities feel about

450
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feel about their schools, because that's the way we're going

451
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to measure the success of this program in particular, right

452
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that we're investing at the start of one billion dollars

453
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and probably more to come after that, But we're not

454
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seeing the same with public schools. And the interesting part is, too,

455
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if you actually talk to vout your advocates ESA advocates,

456
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they'll actually tell you that they agree that public schools

457
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are held to a standard that they feel is unfair.

458
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Speaker 3: Right.

459
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Speaker 2: I've had that conversation with folks you know, in that

460
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camp before who said they agree with that, and so

461
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it's to me it's just really interesting because it just

462
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shows there may be a little bit of a contradiction there,

463
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at least in the odds of people who who think

464
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that again, the local control and accountability component is important,

465
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But then you look at you know, programs, you know elsewhere,

466
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almost like.

467
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Speaker 1: If you're if we were to design a school accountability

468
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system from scratch, which in some ways we're doing with

469
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,960
the voucher system, wouldn't look anything like how we hold

470
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public schools accountable. It sounds like you're sort of saying

471
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so far at least, yeah.

472
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Speaker 2: And what lawmakers are saying is, hey, let parents decide.

473
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Speaker 1: Yeah, which works better for private education than public right, But.

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Speaker 2: When you have I think the difference here is that

475
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now you know, the state is putting its own funding

476
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behind it, right, So there is a I think there's

477
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expectation of accountability from you know, advocates when you think about,

478
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you know, how do we know our return on investment?

479
00:23:43,319 --> 00:23:43,519
Speaker 3: Yeah?

480
00:23:43,599 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 2: You know, so I don't know if you had anything too.

481
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 4: I think, I mean what we saw this legislative session

482
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,359
is that tension came up, right, like why are we

483
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,240
holding private schools to different standards than than our public schools?

484
00:23:56,039 --> 00:23:59,119
And but but there was discussion. But when it came

485
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,640
to actually the legislation, lawmakers weren't in the end willing

486
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,880
to really do an entire revision of the accountability system.

487
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,119
They said, hey, Tea, you should look into different metrics.

488
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,640
Some for example, we're like workforce training, like our students

489
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,680
complaining CTE classes, that kind of thing, but like pre

490
00:24:19,839 --> 00:24:23,559
K participation, so they're exploring it, but it's not quite

491
00:24:23,599 --> 00:24:26,119
the same. We're not seeing those things really being weaved

492
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:27,559
into the accountability system.

493
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:29,039
Speaker 3: That's interesting.

494
00:24:29,079 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I know, say, how you do a lot

495
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,400
of reporting on sort of and like pathways to employment

496
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,799
that maybe are not like did you get a four

497
00:24:36,839 --> 00:24:39,240
point zero GPA, get a twenty four hundred on your

498
00:24:39,319 --> 00:24:41,960
SAT and get rolled at Harvard, right, It's like, we

499
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,720
don't need that for every student. We need students to

500
00:24:43,799 --> 00:24:47,400
learn to become airplane mechanics, We need them to learn

501
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,440
to become you know, all kinds of things like does

502
00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:54,440
the current accountability system take into account schools that are

503
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,400
doing good job preparing students for the workforce that maybe

504
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,119
doesn't need like the same metric that show up on testing.

505
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 4: In short, no, because it is so depends on this

506
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,000
standardized testing system. And I think you could argue that

507
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,279
those like stem jobs that don't require a college degree,

508
00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:15,680
they still need you to be have those like critical

509
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,720
math skills or science skills to really succeed in those roles.

510
00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:25,480
But we're not really thinking deeply about beyond the standardized test,

511
00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:28,000
and so we're for as long as we're not doing that,

512
00:25:28,039 --> 00:25:29,960
we're not really thinking about the student in a in

513
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,799
a real holistic way and education issue.

514
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 2: And then they'll probably they'll probably say, well, you know,

515
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,400
if you look at ourccountability system, we also look at

516
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,079
things like colleging, career, you know, military rats, things that

517
00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:42,920
don't nature. But again back to sney House point, you

518
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,279
know star test is king, right, the standardized test is King.

519
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,240
When you look at the system, right and kind of

520
00:25:48,279 --> 00:25:51,640
what's what's the what's the measure the most heavily? If

521
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:52,839
that makes sense, and.

522
00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 1: It does make sense, just like human nature wise it

523
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,480
until we have something better. You know, everyone can say

524
00:25:58,519 --> 00:26:00,160
all the livelong day that they don't think this our

525
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,519
test is a good metric, but those results come out,

526
00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:05,720
you know, it's business as usual, right, Well, if we

527
00:26:05,759 --> 00:26:07,319
do have this, and what are we gonna not look

528
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:08,839
at it? You know, like and so I think as

529
00:26:08,839 --> 00:26:10,960
long as that is there, it's like becomes the metric,

530
00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:14,039
even if everyone is saying, what we don't think it's

531
00:26:14,039 --> 00:26:15,759
a great metric, but it's a metric that we have.

532
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 4: I also Jenden mentioned there is a metric in the

533
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,400
accountability system that is smaller. The call it what we

534
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,880
call the college and career readiness benchmark. But when I

535
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,759
talk to school leaders, they're saying it's become sort of

536
00:26:28,799 --> 00:26:30,960
cared and sticks. So in order to meet that benchmark,

537
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,839
maybe you need students, a certain number of students or

538
00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:36,640
a percentage of your students to be enrolled in like

539
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,240
career readiness classes. But that's sort of like once you

540
00:26:40,319 --> 00:26:43,000
have that incentive, you can just funnel students into like

541
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:46,519
a word document class where you master word documents. But

542
00:26:46,559 --> 00:26:49,119
it's not actually the same thing as making sure that

543
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,960
they're successful or have options for them for our career.

544
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,240
That's not college, right.

545
00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:58,799
Speaker 1: I mean it almost seems again human nature that if

546
00:26:58,799 --> 00:27:01,359
you create a metric, people will go to great lengths

547
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,119
to meet that metric, even if it's sort of you know,

548
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,759
like and also we'll teach them what they need to know,

549
00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:09,000
but also like we need this many.

550
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 3: Kids to apply for college, like we uh.

551
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,519
Speaker 1: When I was in high school, my high school had

552
00:27:14,559 --> 00:27:17,039
a one hundred percent college acceptance rate that they were

553
00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:20,319
like very dedicated to keeping, which meant every student had to,

554
00:27:20,599 --> 00:27:22,119
in addition to applying to all the colleges that they

555
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,319
wanted to apply to, had to apply to like a

556
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,279
safety school they absolutely could get into, so that like

557
00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:29,240
nobody was going to sort of slip through the cracks

558
00:27:29,279 --> 00:27:32,039
of like, oh I just didn't end up getting in anywhere.

559
00:27:32,079 --> 00:27:33,839
And it's like I remember a kid wanted to go

560
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,079
to culinary school and they were like, all good, you

561
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,160
also have to be accepted to a four year college

562
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,000
because we need to maintain this one hundred percent four

563
00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:46,119
year college acceptance rate and it's like, you know, inevitable

564
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,400
that if you create a metric, people will schools will

565
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,920
go to great odds, great lengths to meet that.

566
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it reminds me to we were talking

567
00:27:54,559 --> 00:27:56,319
about this, and I kind of hinted at earlier, right

568
00:27:56,319 --> 00:27:58,440
when we were talking about some of the demographic makeups

569
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,000
of like the schools and things of that nature. Right,

570
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,119
these are this whole conversation keeps me up at night.

571
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,000
But you know, I've thought about this a lot recently.

572
00:28:06,039 --> 00:28:09,039
It's like, you know, the commissioner, you know, commission of

573
00:28:09,039 --> 00:28:11,480
Marath has often talked about, yeah, like he sees these

574
00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:17,279
systemic failures that are obviously disapportionately affecting you know, black

575
00:28:17,319 --> 00:28:20,039
and brown students, right. And to me, you know, the

576
00:28:20,319 --> 00:28:23,319
interesting kind of nuance to that is like if you look,

577
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,079
you know, obviously we know that academic achievement like nationally

578
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,519
and gap and academic achievement gaps, things of that nature, Right,

579
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,559
we understand kind of what that looks like and how

580
00:28:31,599 --> 00:28:34,480
it again disproportionately you know, harms or you know, more

581
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:37,720
negative results for our black and brown students. But where

582
00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:39,759
the commissioner maybe does have a point when you talk

583
00:28:39,799 --> 00:28:42,440
about systemic you know issues. Right, If you look at

584
00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:45,319
discipline data, right, which I've done more recently, like dating

585
00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:48,279
back to maybe maybe like seven, eight, eight or nine,

586
00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:51,839
something like that, every single year you have black and

587
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,720
brown students, who are particularly black students, right, are overrepresented

588
00:28:55,759 --> 00:28:59,279
and out of school suspensions and in school suspensions any

589
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,720
discipline category of metric you can think of, they're overrepresented

590
00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:03,240
in those things.

591
00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 3: Right.

592
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,799
Speaker 2: You read anecdotally stories like in barbaracill I ISD. You

593
00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:09,160
know there was a student the huge kind of court

594
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,359
battle where you know, basically you know he had his

595
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,920
hair a certain way and you know the district wasn't

596
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,319
favorable for that violated their dress code, and you know

597
00:29:17,359 --> 00:29:19,640
he wasn't able to go to school. Right, The question

598
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,839
I often have, Right, those things have legitimate effects on

599
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,519
you know, how students see themselves in school, right, which

600
00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:30,119
also has a trickle down effect to academic achievement and

601
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,200
like how students perform. And so certainly there's a conversation

602
00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:35,960
that we had, right. It's like, certainly, you know, you

603
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,799
can talk all day and debate, you know, should we

604
00:29:38,839 --> 00:29:41,119
be looking at academic achievement and things of those nature?

605
00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:43,839
You know, excuse me not not looking at academic achievement,

606
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,920
but looking at like standardized testing and things that nature

607
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,519
to measure student performance. But to be fair, there are

608
00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:52,960
things that school districts systemically when it comes to educating

609
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,279
the most vulnerable kids, right, obstacles that, to be honest

610
00:29:56,319 --> 00:29:58,160
with you, when you look at the data, they certainly

611
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,000
have to overcome because I don't know if you can come,

612
00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:02,920
you know, to any you know, to the commissioner, to

613
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,240
the reporter and say inherently that if you look at discipline,

614
00:30:06,319 --> 00:30:08,880
you know, individually, these sets of students are just more

615
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,519
problem that. It's just not that's just not how it works.

616
00:30:11,519 --> 00:30:14,319
And so certainly there are systemic issues when it comes

617
00:30:14,319 --> 00:30:16,880
to creating an educational environment where these kids can thrive,

618
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,240
and that's something that between the state, local communities, and

619
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,880
at the district level are going to have to figure out.

620
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 4: And I think it's also a question of resources. And

621
00:30:27,519 --> 00:30:30,920
the way our educational system is set up is schools

622
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,240
that are in poor communities are working with fewer resources,

623
00:30:35,319 --> 00:30:37,920
and so that is a challenge when you're trying to

624
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,880
get students who are like high need, maybe aren't getting

625
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,000
don't have food at home, and are coming to school

626
00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:47,319
with more needs that they need the school to then meet,

627
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,880
but the school is working with fewer resources. And then

628
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,240
you want them to go and show up to the

629
00:30:51,279 --> 00:30:55,519
test and passed with fine colors. That's complicated. And I

630
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,079
someone like Commissioner Marath will say, you know, there are

631
00:30:58,119 --> 00:31:01,279
bright spots. He'll point to specific places in south districts

632
00:31:01,279 --> 00:31:05,480
in South Texas that have maybe limited resources or it

633
00:31:05,559 --> 00:31:08,920
is like a high percentage of students who are economically

634
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,279
disadvantaged and they're still able to perform well. And so

635
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,319
I mean we need to look into why exactly that is.

636
00:31:16,359 --> 00:31:19,640
But on a whole, those are those are bright spots,

637
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,039
those are outliers. On a whole, we are seeing still

638
00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:25,000
seeing this trend of you know, when you have fewer resources,

639
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,400
when you are in poor communities, it's students are performing

640
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,640
performing worse on these tests. And you can imagine for

641
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,759
all the all the reasons that we've talked about.

642
00:31:34,119 --> 00:31:35,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it definitely seems like it's all like

643
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,039
so intertwined that it's you know, I don't envy the

644
00:31:39,079 --> 00:31:40,960
people who do have to create policy around this, because

645
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,400
it's like very hard to fix one piece without sort

646
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,400
of fixing the whole thing. For these districts that are

647
00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:51,039
sort of staring down either potentially a takeover they've been

648
00:31:51,039 --> 00:31:52,720
sort of informed about this, or the ones, like you

649
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,319
said Austin, some others that are really on the precipice here.

650
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,920
I want to sort of look back at Houston ID,

651
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,559
which has been under over for a couple of years,

652
00:32:01,599 --> 00:32:03,559
and what has been.

653
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 3: The impact of that. I mean, how have we seen

654
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:05,559
that play out?

655
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,319
Speaker 1: Like what do these districts sort of have to look

656
00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:09,799
forward to in terms of how that might go.

657
00:32:10,599 --> 00:32:14,559
Speaker 4: Houston ICY is fascinating. I mean it is such a

658
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,400
The way the takeover has played out is has been

659
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,440
incredibly controversial. On one hand, I mean, you have a

660
00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:24,559
whole coalition of community members that have come in just

661
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,200
kind of formulated and organized just around fighting back against

662
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,480
Mike Marath, which is Mike Miles. Excuse me, which.

663
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 3: Is the why do they have such a.

664
00:32:34,119 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: Miles is the state appointed superintendent, like Marath the commissioner.

665
00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 4: But Mike Miles the commissioner that Marath appointed.

666
00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:44,359
Speaker 3: I mean, it's.

667
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,119
Speaker 4: Just a word tongue tis straight there.

668
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: But if we're facing we're going to get other state

669
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,200
appointed superintendents, Let's try to use some different one request.

670
00:32:59,079 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 4: But yes, let me try it. But Mike Miles is

671
00:33:04,519 --> 00:33:08,000
the superintendent that the commissioner appointed, and so he's just

672
00:33:08,039 --> 00:33:10,920
had a really controversial approach. On one hand, you have

673
00:33:11,039 --> 00:33:14,400
this coalition of community members that have really fought against this,

674
00:33:14,559 --> 00:33:16,720
but then you also have these state lawmakers that have

675
00:33:16,799 --> 00:33:20,000
really lauded him and applauded him and said, you know,

676
00:33:20,359 --> 00:33:24,680
what Superintendent Miles is doing should be emulated across the state.

677
00:33:24,799 --> 00:33:27,839
So I really think because of that those tensions, we

678
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,519
really need to be paying attention to what is happening

679
00:33:30,519 --> 00:33:33,359
in Houston as really a possible forecast for what could

680
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,400
be happening what we could see having a ripple effect

681
00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:40,839
across Texas. And so you know there has been to

682
00:33:40,839 --> 00:33:43,960
answer your question, Elner, there has been a big jump

683
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,599
in improvement in test course right, Like we had no

684
00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:52,799
f ratings this fifty host in Houston, ID I mean

685
00:33:52,839 --> 00:33:56,559
to go from fifty six underperforming to zero that is

686
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,680
no one can argue with what a jump an improvement

687
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,480
that is on the metrics, right, And so we're seeing

688
00:34:03,519 --> 00:34:08,119
test scores improve across every subject. But I think the

689
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,280
question community members are asking is that what costs?

690
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,119
Speaker 3: Right, Like we've.

691
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 4: Seen teachers leave and droves. We've seen students pull enroll

692
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,239
in droves. There's been a question of like how much

693
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,239
can we really gain from or gather from these improvements

694
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,480
and test scores when we know some students are being

695
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:31,880
held backgrades in math and science. So it's really this

696
00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:34,880
tension that's happening right now. It's like, Okay, we are

697
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:39,159
seeing test test gains, but is testing to come back

698
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:41,519
to really is it the end all be all?

699
00:34:42,039 --> 00:34:44,679
Speaker 2: Yeah? And what what state of point is? Superintendent Mike

700
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,480
Miles has implemented the I'm glad I got there, right, Sure,

701
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,599
Mike Miles, as you know, so basically, you know the

702
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:55,800
basis of what he's doing there is through this reform

703
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,440
system on the new new education system, right, they refer

704
00:34:58,519 --> 00:35:00,519
to it as as locally right and so so some

705
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:02,800
of the features of that which people maybe have read about, right,

706
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,760
like you know, daily quizzes, you know, kind of scripted

707
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,519
you know, curriculum where teachers are you know, are held

708
00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:13,599
to that and make sure that everybody's kind of aligned

709
00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:16,000
across the board, you know, creating kind of team centers

710
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,079
in part for discipline, but also for you know, if

711
00:35:19,079 --> 00:35:20,719
you need to pull you know, kids out of class

712
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,960
because they're not caught up on a certain lesson. You know,

713
00:35:23,079 --> 00:35:25,159
the class moves on, will pull the kid out and

714
00:35:25,559 --> 00:35:27,519
try to get them caught up right, some of those features.

715
00:35:27,559 --> 00:35:29,280
And I think the way people have described it locally

716
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,360
is more of kind of a what I've seen, right

717
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,760
is more of like a people say, like a militaristic

718
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,840
approach to education, right, and so some of the trade off,

719
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,199
and we talk to people locally, it's like, Okay, we're

720
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,320
seeing these gains, but to same house point, you know,

721
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,360
at what costs? And some researchers too, you know, more recently,

722
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,079
I was speaking with a researcher in North Texas. You know,

723
00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:49,920
they're also thinking about to what extent, you know, and

724
00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:53,559
just for background in the enrollment losses that we're seeing,

725
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:57,800
So enrollments technically up across the state, but every community

726
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,239
is like different, and so Houston, you know, it's seeing,

727
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,079
you know, dramatic drops in enrollment. But what's kind of

728
00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:07,960
raised the alarm of local reporters and researchers is that

729
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,639
the enrollment drops are more profound in the schools where

730
00:36:10,639 --> 00:36:16,480
those reforms are most targeted. And so the question becomes

731
00:36:16,559 --> 00:36:18,000
to what extent. You know, we're seeing a lot of

732
00:36:18,039 --> 00:36:22,239
teacher and student turnover. From a student turnover standpoint, you

733
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,960
know how much of that factors into some of the changes,

734
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,679
significant gains and the outcomes that we're seeing, right, you know,

735
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,519
historically if you look at some of these, you know,

736
00:36:29,599 --> 00:36:31,920
some of these, you know, similar scenarios. I remember reading

737
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,599
a book a while back and the author was talking

738
00:36:33,639 --> 00:36:36,440
about how maybe it was in New York, California, one

739
00:36:36,559 --> 00:36:38,800
major school is nonethelesson. They were talking about how the

740
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,079
local community was concerned that demography right change, the significant

741
00:36:42,119 --> 00:36:45,800
changes in enrollment, changes in student populations to what are

742
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,000
you testing the same children who maybe before have been

743
00:36:49,039 --> 00:36:53,360
struggling and therefore were you know, you know, maybe part

744
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,119
of why test scores have been lower. Again, I'm not

745
00:36:56,119 --> 00:36:58,119
saying that that's the case, but I'm just saying that

746
00:36:58,199 --> 00:37:00,440
Houston is a very fascinating case that because there's just

747
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,440
so much nuance, and there's a lot of information and

748
00:37:02,519 --> 00:37:06,320
things that we honestly probably won't even know until years

749
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:07,880
from now, when when it's all said and done and

750
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,800
we can look back and say, Okay, what actually happened,

751
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:10,920
what worked and what didn't?

752
00:37:11,199 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: What do we know about where those I mean, the

753
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,320
kids were disenrolling, where are they going?

754
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question, you know locally, and I

755
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,239
want to give a hug shout out to the local

756
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,159
reporters that the Houston Chronicles, they've done some really good

757
00:37:21,159 --> 00:37:25,480
stuff on this, you know, anecdotally speaking, we know through

758
00:37:25,679 --> 00:37:28,039
local reporting, right that there have been families that have

759
00:37:28,119 --> 00:37:29,880
just pulled their kids out of those schools because they

760
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,400
didn't like the takeover and enrolled them in other places.

761
00:37:33,199 --> 00:37:35,239
But that's also a big question more right, Like you

762
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,079
know saying and I've talked about this before too, it's

763
00:37:37,079 --> 00:37:39,840
like where are you have to assume, right if you're

764
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,719
seeing se have some of those kids dropped out of

765
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,079
school all together? Like where? So there is a lot

766
00:37:44,079 --> 00:37:47,079
of nuances that the commissioner has been asked about that

767
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,599
I know by none other than Evan Smith, right. I

768
00:37:49,639 --> 00:37:52,960
was at a recent a recent deal there, and he

769
00:37:53,039 --> 00:37:55,400
was asked about the teacher turnover and you know, drops

770
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,280
and enrollment, and it really didn't seem to be kind

771
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,679
of a clear cohesive understanding to like what actually is

772
00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:04,880
happening there as it pertains to those particular changes in

773
00:38:05,519 --> 00:38:08,079
you know, change at the district level, But certainly things

774
00:38:08,079 --> 00:38:10,800
that I think the local reporters, you know, everybody's kind

775
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,480
of thinking about, and as we kind of move forward

776
00:38:12,519 --> 00:38:14,679
and continue to kind of measure, you know, what the

777
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,960
success or lack there of, or wherever people look at it,

778
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:18,079
what that looks like.

779
00:38:18,559 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 4: I especially wonder about that, given that the cuts that

780
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,559
have been made is too services like wrap around services

781
00:38:25,639 --> 00:38:29,559
like supporting students experiencing homelessness. So then all these things

782
00:38:29,639 --> 00:38:32,039
you can imagine are sort of coming together. So it's

783
00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:34,000
just a it's a good question, I think all the

784
00:38:34,199 --> 00:38:35,639
reporters folks are asking right now.

785
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, certainly, it doesn't tell like these are

786
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,920
families that are like necessarily in a position to say like, oh,

787
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,159
let's move to a wealthier district to get our kid

788
00:38:44,159 --> 00:38:45,719
into a better school, or let's you know, get our

789
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,000
kiden rolled in a private school.

790
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,519
Speaker 3: Maybe. I mean it sounds like maybe some of them are.

791
00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:50,639
Speaker 2: But that's a privilege too, right, to be able to

792
00:38:50,679 --> 00:38:52,679
just say say like, oh, yeah, so.

793
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: That's really really interesting. And I mean I think, like

794
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,079
you said, it'll be years of sort of unpacking you

795
00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:01,320
know what worked, And doesn't it sound like we'll ever

796
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,000
get a definitive like that was right or wrong.

797
00:39:04,159 --> 00:39:06,679
Speaker 3: It's just sort of like there were probably some gains

798
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,119
and probably at some costs.

799
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,679
Speaker 2: And it'll depend yeah, it'll depend on kind of local values, right,

800
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,760
because you have a lot of parents there locally who

801
00:39:14,039 --> 00:39:16,760
for like, takeover isn't what's best for them. But if

802
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,360
you look at a place like Fort Worth, you have

803
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,039
families who are kind of welcome and get a little

804
00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:22,519
bit not saying that's the consensus or anything, but you've seen,

805
00:39:22,559 --> 00:39:24,199
you know, families who say, hey, maybe this is what's

806
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,639
best for the district. And so, you know, really fascinating there.

807
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,519
But again let's go back to that local kind of

808
00:39:30,519 --> 00:39:31,440
community component.

809
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,639
Speaker 1: And it is interesting, I mean that Houston is the

810
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,840
sort of best example we have so far because like

811
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,360
what a behemoth like. It's like, you know, if we

812
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,000
had like a small rural district where you could say,

813
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,800
like this is our laboratory for seeing it like Houston

814
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,480
just a larger school district I assume than many states

815
00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:52,800
have in terms of enrollment in uh just one of

816
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,079
the biggest in the countries. Just what what a place

817
00:39:56,119 --> 00:39:57,800
to start this, you know, this effort.

818
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,079
Speaker 2: And one last thought too, I wonder if you I

819
00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:02,159
don't know if you have thoughts on this, but like, if

820
00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:05,360
the goal list systemic reform, but ultimately what's going to

821
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,760
happen wants to take over, it ultimately ends because they

822
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,280
will end at some point you shift back to local control,

823
00:40:11,559 --> 00:40:14,840
you know, elected school board members and the superintendent. You know,

824
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,760
is it that they're going to just continue what Mike

825
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,159
Miles or these other stated pointed superintendents are doing or

826
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,519
there are there going to implement their own vision? And like,

827
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,119
if the goal systemic reform long term, how do you

828
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:31,039
ensure if there are changes made by this administration, that

829
00:40:31,079 --> 00:40:32,599
it's going to carry on to the next There's no

830
00:40:32,639 --> 00:40:34,000
way you can guarantee.

831
00:40:33,519 --> 00:40:36,639
Speaker 4: That, especially if the community is sort of throwing their

832
00:40:36,639 --> 00:40:39,920
hands in saying I don't we don't agree with this. Yeah,

833
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,920
So it is really fascinating. And I also think about,

834
00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:47,679
you know, the process of the state takeover. The TEA

835
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,920
will say, you know, the school districts have a chance

836
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,760
to fight it, to preempt it. But when you reach

837
00:40:54,880 --> 00:41:00,559
this like four failing grades, five failing grades, threshore, I really,

838
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,679
I really wonder do schools really have a fighting chance

839
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,480
to stave off control? They have an option where they

840
00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:09,639
can enter a partnership with their charter school and that

841
00:41:09,639 --> 00:41:13,159
buys them a little bit more time. But Beaumat did

842
00:41:13,199 --> 00:41:15,599
do that, and a number of the schools did do that.

843
00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:18,679
But then and then you also have this option to

844
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,679
maybe you shut down the school before before the tea

845
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,159
comes in. But then in a lot of these instances,

846
00:41:25,519 --> 00:41:28,400
Fort Worth and a bunch of these school districts that

847
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,400
are being taken over, they did shut down to school

848
00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:34,079
and TA came and said, hey, that actually still wasn't enough.

849
00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:35,840
You hit the threshold. So it doesn't matter if the

850
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,719
school is shut down, We're still going to come over

851
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,199
and take over the entire district. So you really wonder,

852
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,519
like how much like how much of the local say

853
00:41:44,679 --> 00:41:46,199
is really coming to play here?

854
00:41:47,119 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 1: I mean junior connentsort brings me to my final question,

855
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:51,679
which is like, how does a district get out of

856
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:52,519
state takeover.

857
00:41:52,639 --> 00:41:57,119
Speaker 2: We've seen that happen, yeah, so it's super interesting. So

858
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,760
basically what we know is is we can look at

859
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,440
the case of Houston. Right, the commissioners set wasn't maybe

860
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,360
a handful of say three maybe I'm missing a couple,

861
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,280
but generally speaking, a handful of kind of parameters that

862
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,400
the district needs to meet to begin a transition, but ultimately,

863
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,559
like there is kind of a you know, a cutoff

864
00:42:13,559 --> 00:42:15,400
so far in the Houston's case, for example, we know

865
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,920
that it will extend at least through twenty twenty seven,

866
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,199
and at that point, and it started in twenty twenty three,

867
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,400
so twenty twenty seven, and at that point the commission

868
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,920
actually has to begin the transition back to local control,

869
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,320
which is also a very incremental process. Right, It's like,

870
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,800
you know, only a certain you know, maybe a certain

871
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,039
number of school board members come back at first, and

872
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:34,840
like it's very so it's not like it's going to

873
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,000
end in twenty twenty seven, So it's going to be

874
00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:41,119
gradually kind of phased out back into the hands of

875
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,840
kind of the local school board. And obviously they could

876
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,320
choose one thing that's interesting. I don't again, we don't

877
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:47,840
know if this is going to happen. A local school

878
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,360
board could decide to say, hey, we like the stateing

879
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,519
point of superintendent, we can keep them around. That's also

880
00:42:53,559 --> 00:42:55,320
a possibility. I don't know how likely that is, but

881
00:42:55,599 --> 00:42:57,159
certainly something that could happen as well.

882
00:42:59,519 --> 00:43:02,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just an interesting sort of I mean, and Obviously,

883
00:43:02,559 --> 00:43:04,559
as we alluded to at the beginning, there's so much

884
00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:06,880
like tension between state and local control that has nothing

885
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,920
to do with school performance and has a lot to

886
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,599
do with you know, cities and particularly like these more

887
00:43:12,639 --> 00:43:16,960
politically blue leaning cities feeling you know, the sort of

888
00:43:17,519 --> 00:43:21,000
pressure of the red leaning state government that like underpins

889
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,719
a lot of this, and also like this is a

890
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,159
thing that people really really care about, right, Like it

891
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,039
We've we talked about this a lot of the Tribune.

892
00:43:29,119 --> 00:43:32,559
We have like a school Explorer's page on our website

893
00:43:32,679 --> 00:43:35,519
that is like consistently our most clicked.

894
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 3: Page and probably refresh.

895
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's like people is probably the thing people

896
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,920
care about the most, right is like where what schools

897
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,639
are performing, is how they make decisions about where they live,

898
00:43:48,679 --> 00:43:50,719
It's how they make decisions about how they want to

899
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,639
spend their money, what they want to invest in, you know,

900
00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:54,000
all those kind of things.

901
00:43:54,039 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, the.

902
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 1: State obviously feels that pressure, these local communities feel that press. Sure,

903
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,119
and it sounds like this is just like the tool

904
00:44:04,119 --> 00:44:07,800
they've settled on for now to sort of execute on

905
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,159
the state's vision at least of how to improve that.

906
00:44:10,159 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 2: And to be clear. Right. This is also one of

907
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,039
those issues that really doesn't isn't divided neatly along like

908
00:44:15,119 --> 00:44:18,079
partisan lines, like when you talk about like takeovers like nationally,

909
00:44:18,159 --> 00:44:19,920
and if you look at twenty fifteen law, it was

910
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,880
Harold Dunnen who's the one who who basically was responsible

911
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,199
for the trigger. You know that that came into it,

912
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,119
and you know, a lot of his frustration have been

913
00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:31,440
with you know, looking at he's predominantly black and brown

914
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,639
schools in his community in Houston. He's like, you know,

915
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,800
even if you give districts, you know, resources, from his standpoint,

916
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,519
he's like, we're still not seeing what we need to see. Right,

917
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:42,679
you look at you can look at discipline, right, you can,

918
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,159
you know, we know what impact for example, something that's

919
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,159
simple term wise, like as teacher diversity is and how

920
00:44:49,199 --> 00:44:51,840
that how students who have teachers who look like them

921
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,360
and reflect their experiences like that actually has shown to

922
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:59,519
also have positive effects on academic outcomes. Right. His question

923
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,920
was is like, what are districts doing with the controllables? Right, Like,

924
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:06,599
no circumstance is going to be perfect, but when you

925
00:45:06,639 --> 00:45:09,320
do have certain resources in the power to do things,

926
00:45:09,559 --> 00:45:11,480
what are you changing? And so I'm only bringing that

927
00:45:11,559 --> 00:45:13,199
up as an example of the show. It's not just

928
00:45:13,199 --> 00:45:15,280
a Republican thing, right, And just to.

929
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 4: Add, like a conservative value along conservative value has been

930
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:24,000
less governance, right and central and local control and so shift.

931
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 1: A little bit in recent years with the in Texas specificity, yes,

932
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:32,880
but certainly like local control and less government. And yeah,

933
00:45:33,039 --> 00:45:35,239
just I think a lot of people are concerned about,

934
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,159
you know, are we doing enough for black and brown students?

935
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,920
And like you said, that doesn't necessarily cut across it

936
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,199
cuts across party lines in interesting ways.

937
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 2: And the commissioners acknowledged to these debates as well. During

938
00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:47,239
his discussion with Evan, you know, he he kind of

939
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,840
acknowledged that, you know, some of the opposition maybe the

940
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,760
fort work and things of the nature. He talked about how,

941
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:53,639
you know, hey, those are valid points and those are

942
00:45:53,639 --> 00:45:55,880
things that I have to consider ultimately. You know, he

943
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,679
articulates that he feels like he's doing what was best

944
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,800
for students, and that's going to depend on the person

945
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,239
their background, with their values are how they look at education.

946
00:46:03,559 --> 00:46:05,559
Speaker 4: Right, It's a little bit like who is best possession

947
00:46:05,639 --> 00:46:08,639
to really do what's best and meet these needs of

948
00:46:08,639 --> 00:46:11,480
the students and you're seeing that in local folks saying, hey,

949
00:46:11,679 --> 00:46:14,039
this is our community, we know these students, we know

950
00:46:14,079 --> 00:46:16,960
these families. And then the state saying, while we have

951
00:46:17,079 --> 00:46:20,480
the resources, we have the tools and the academic knowledge

952
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that we can come in and really a point who

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we need to to really meet these like very specific needs.

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Speaker 1: So well, I mean it's a very complicated thing, but

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I appreciate you guys sort of breaking that down and

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your ongoing coverage on you know what does seem to

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at least be a recent uptick in you know takeovers.

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That was Snaeja Day and Jaden Edison. You can find

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their work at the Texas Tribune or at Texastribune dot org.

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Speaker 3: Drop the Cleaner. That is this?

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Speaker 1: That is it for this week's episode of The Trip

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Cast for December sixteenth. You can find our podcast anywhere

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you get your podcasts, or you can watch us on YouTube.

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Speaker 3: Our producers are Rob and Chris.

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Speaker 1: Our theme music is composed by Rob and we will

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see you next week.