Speaker 2: S What Up? What Up? Everybody?
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast
where you get to ask me Paul Abernathy anything you
want about the National Electrical Code and all things electrically related.
Thanks for joining me today on the podcast. If you've
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by Wicks anyway. So today I thought we'd answer some
questions that were submitted to the Let's Ask Paul podcast
and kind of clear up some questions if people have
been asking. Again, I have a backload of these, but
we do have some that Darlene has pushed forward to
me that we want to make sure that we do cover,
and so we're gonna do that today.
Speaker 2: We'll do our best to try to cover those, all right.
Speaker 1: The first thing that was sent to me was basically
it said, in a cross space or under a trailer,
would you need to install a weather proof junction box
or could a metal junction with a non metallic junction
box be fine. I'm guess I'm assuming a metal or
non metallic would be fine. I referenced three fourteen fifteen,
but not sure. Also, I'm assuming any wire coming down
would need to be UF rated for weatherproof. Okay, So
any cable coming down, it's probably what you're talking about. Uh.
If it was a wiring method coming down, then again,
depending on whether or not we consider that a wet
location or a damp location or not, I'll give you
my thoughts on that. But if it is a wetter
damp location, and obviously we have to use a wiring
method it's rated for such, Okay, non metallic sheath cable
for example, poking it down. If it is a wetter
damp location, then you obviously know that you can't use
non metallic sheath cable, and you also could not leave
it in a raceway in a wet and damp location
outside and think that your can use non metallic sheath
cable because you can't, but you could with UF cable.
And I think that's what he's alluding to. So at
the end of the day. What we want to remember
is that in that cross base or actually under that trailer,
the type of junction box or the wiring methods that
are used really depends on the environmental condition that it
is exposed to. And a lot of this is going
to have to be something that the AHJ will look at.
I mean, three fourteen fifteen makes it very clear. Enclosures
in boxes installed in wet and damp locations got to
be weather proof. I have to be rated for the
environment that they're being located in. And of course that
would go hand in hand with any of the wiring
methods as well, which you could look under. Use is
permitted and use is not permitted, of the various wiring
methods that you're interested in. And at the end of
the day, is this something that it's going to have
to be an h j's call, because really, if you
think about it, and I'm going to speak from an
HJ perspective on this one, if you have a trailer,
these are standardized and anytime you come out of the
envelope of the trailer, whether it's underneath it and you
have some skirting around it or whatnot, you're considered outside
of the trailer, so I would consider it outside. Now,
whether it's a wet location or damplication, that's going to
be jurisdictional. I personally think if it's underneath the trailer,
it's more damp than it would be wet. Right, And
we have definition an article one hundred that gives us
some clarity on damp, wet, and dry. But since a
trailer like that, like a mobile home or job site trailer,
since we're coming out of that envelope of the trailer
coming outside, whether it's on the bottom or on the
sides or wherever, then it is outside of that. And
so just because I may put some skirting around it
at the end of the day, it's outside, it's just underneath,
and it may kick it from being a wet location
into a damp location. But this is going to definitely
be something that the AHJ is going to have to
be worked with because, you know what, they could look
at it differently. They might know geographically something different in
the area. There may be evidence of flooding, there may
be evidence of moisture underneath or whatever. So they're going
to be the ones to make the call.
Speaker 2: For me.
Speaker 1: I'm telling electricians, Look, let's not try to make it complicated.
If you're coming outside of the envelope of the structure,
then it's going to be either a wet or damp location.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: If you use a product that's raaded for wet location,
then you're going to buy default be okay in a
damp location. Something that's ready for a damplication may not
be adequate for a wet location.
Speaker 2: So those are the type of things. Use your best
judgment in that.
Speaker 1: But not knowing more details on the situation or what
it looks like, I use the golden rule. If you're
going outside of the actual structure, then you're going.
Speaker 2: To be outside that type of thing. You get me,
all right.
Speaker 1: So that's where we're at on that and hopefully that
it helps you out at least give you my opinion
on that. So again, thanks for submitting that question over
at Paulabernathy dot com and you know you can do
it also. Just go to Paul Abernathy dot com in
simple little form, send it to me, let me know
the code cycle you're in, and give me as much
detail as you can, and I'll be more than happy
to try to give you my opinion on it. Again,
my opinion is no different than NFPA's opinion because they
typically give a non formal okay, or we call it
an informal opinion. Basically, it's just an opinion, no different
than everybody else's opinion. I base mine based on experience
because I've been doing this for nearly forty years. But
at the end of the day, you're gonna have to
use good sound judgment as well, based on the condition
of use, and so that's important for you to really
think about that as well. Okay, So hopefully that helps
you with that one. All right, the next question, let's
see what have we got here on the schedule here?
Speaker 2: What did you share with me? Okay?
Speaker 1: The next question it was asked, is it says, is
there a code that prohibits an electrical panel under a
stairwell area? Okay, all right, so I guess I guess
we're talking about underneath the stairway stairwell. Is there anything
that would prohibit the application? Well, as far as the
National Electrical Code is concerned, there is nothing.
Speaker 2: Specifically that would prohibit it.
Speaker 1: But you do have clearance issues you got to be
aware of, so you got to make sure you meet
all the requirements.
Speaker 2: At one ten dot twenty six. Okay, you have your
your your.
Speaker 1: Clearance thirty inches in any direction left and right, you're
typically probably going to be three feet out.
Speaker 2: You can have your height.
Speaker 1: So you have to meet all of the requirements at
one ten dot twenty six. Now that may or may
not be something that you can meet underneath that that's stairwell.
But you know what, if it was a room you
stand up and you had the working clearances and you
had everything that you needed to have, there's nothing in
the nec that says that you that you can't put
it there.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's also have to be readily accessible.
Speaker 1: So again we'll assume that all of this is in
place and you've got the working clearances and you're in
it's readily accessible to the overcurrent devices and everything like that,
and it's not a closet that's being used with combustible
material in it. Then at the end of the day,
I don't see a problem with it at all. So
that's the things that you're going to have to be
aware of. Okay, so you got to meet all those
clearance issues. You have to make sure and really know
the location you're put above them that there's nothing in
the code. Now, the code has prohibited statements, for example,
putting panels over stairs things like that, but you can
actually and even in a stairwell, you could have a
panel in there if it's over the landing and you
still have the clearances right left and right in front of.
Speaker 2: It, up height above it.
Speaker 1: If you have all of that space, then that would
be acceptable as well. There's nothing that prepped now. It's
prohibited over stairs but not on a landing. So again
that's just some extra information. But at the end of
the day, it doesn't seem like that would be the
most prudent place to do something like that anyway. But
you know, hey, far bit from me to tell you
how to do your install I'm saying. But as far
as answering your question, though, there's nothing that prohibits it
in a stairwell area except for again working clearances and
heights and everything that you need to access it, and
they readily accessible and all that stuff. If that all
is good, then hey, no problem at all putting it there. Okay, Okay,
we have another question that was submitted and I've actually
answered this question in an email to the Gentleman.
Speaker 2: I had to do a follow up to this.
Speaker 1: The reason I had to a follow up is that,
you know, I got to thinking about this one and
realize that this is one of those questions where you
could dig a little deeper, and digging deeper means that
we can get way more meaning out of the question.
This has to do with ev SSE. Okay, So here's
a question. It says, hey, Paul, thanks for your input
the other day, and as always, thank you for what
you do to the industry or do for the industry.
I do what I do to the industry. It says,
I would like your opinion on to on the twenty
twenty three NEC article to twenty fifty seven evsc load.
My question involves around the term name plate rating. Is
a name plate rating going to be the maximum rating
of the ev SSE or does a name plate rating
of the unit adjust to the setting of the unit
for purposes of the service and feeder calculation. Does the
EVSE E with the maximum load let's say of forty
eight amps nameplate get charged? Get charged to the thirty
two amps of the unit? Is adjustable to thirty two amps? Thanks,
thank you and the individual. Okay, so this is a
weird question. So I got to think it about it.
So it's pretty clear that the name plate rating of
the EVSSE, especially when it comes to that code reference. Okay,
so fifty seven, So for those that are familiar with that,
that is something that's that has been added into into
the twenty twenty three NEC. Now, prior to this, you
had to take it for account. You had to take
it into account anyway. When you're doing a low calculation,
it's typically all under your two twenty dot fourteen other loads,
and you're just gonna put it into your calculation because
you obviously have to account for it. You just can't say, oh,
I don't nowhere in the code to account for it,
so I don't have to do anything. But no, that's
that's not what it says. So I did answer the
question for the gentleman. But then I got to think
in and I got to think, and you know what,
I need to give you more detail how you may
use this in the real world.
Speaker 2: And so what it says in two twenty.
Speaker 1: Dot fifty seven for those out there, it's all it
did was introduce a set wattage value or VA WATS
or VA however you want to like it. And it's
what you use in a calculation, especially if you don't
know what type of EVS, which is electric vehicle supply equipment.
If you don't know what it is, it's giving you
a default amount if you know one's going in. If
you're drawing show in EVSSE and nobody gives you the
name you know the name plate, nobody gives you the information, right,
then you're sitting there going, Okay, I don't have anything
to work with. So here's what the code says. Now,
So to twenty fifty seven, which is says electric vehicle
supply Equipment load. It says the EVS loads shall be
calculated at either seventy two hundred watts or VA or
the nameplate rating of the equipment, whichever is larger. So
the question really was asking me. Originally the question was
asking me, is how what is the nameplate? Is the
name plate the maximum? And my answer is, and it
still will be that I think that you use the
maximum because we cannot control what.
Speaker 2: A end user does.
Speaker 1: Okay, So if we don't know it's seventy two hundred watts.
If we do know and it's greater than that, then
that would be the basis of the nameplate. Okay, now
that is what we would get into twenty to fifty seven,
and that's pretty much kind of what we always had
to do, right, it's an appliant to use the when
we're looking at it, we're going to use the nameplate
because that's all we have. And again in our load calculations,
like for the optional method, which is probably what you're
gonna use ninety nine point nine nine nine nine nine
percent of the time in that scenario, it wants name
plate values. Okay, so you're just gonna pull that and
you're gonna get a pretty good.
Speaker 2: Uh de rating allowance as well.
Speaker 1: Anyway, Okay, when you're doing that with the optional method,
which is what you know part four of two twenty
so you're just gonna have to treat the EVS as
another appliance. Well, that's what we would do in the
real world up to this point. But then the twenty
twenty three gave us this two twenty fifty seven and said, hey,
you know what, I know that an EVS is an appliance.
Speaker 2: I get it, but we're gonna give.
Speaker 1: You a base value to work with, seventy two hundred
watts or the name plate name plate being the value
that's posted on the name plate. Now, the question that
I got to thinking about is what about this allowance
in six twenty five that allows me to say, you
know what if I have energy management system or have
the ability to adjust it, and it's only accessible to
authorize people, and I can tune this back a little bit.
Speaker 2: Do I have some allowance?
Speaker 1: Well, let's remember a couple things that when we think
about the structure of the National Electrical Code, right, you
have to remember that at first. So we start thinking
about the structure of the code, and we're in chapter
two right now when we're looking at to twenty dot
fifty seven. But we also remember that the evses OKA
is in six twenty five, so that's chapter six, right.
So when we go look at the code and we
think about the code Arrangement ninety dot three, what does
it say to us? It says the code is divided
into the introduction and nine chapters. Has shown in figure
ninety oh three, Chapters one, two, three, and four applied generally.
Chapters five, six and seven apply to special occupancy, special
equipment OKAY, or other special conditions, and may supplement or
modify the requirements in chapters one through seven. So I
got to thinking about this and I'm like, this is
a perfect example. And I emailed him back because I
know that wasn't his question, but you know, in six
twenty five it's it's one of those things that you're like, Okay, well,
how does this play out? I mean, how would we
work this in to our scenario of what we're dealing with.
Speaker 2: And that's when I got to thinking.
Speaker 1: About it, and I'm like, you know what, there are
some situations where you'd be able to do that and
work that in and be able to realize that.
Speaker 2: You know, wait a minute, maybe I do.
Speaker 1: Get to do something that I normally wouldn't do, right,
And you're like, okay, well.
Speaker 2: What does that mean?
Speaker 1: So if you actually go to six twenty five dot
forty two, for example, and it gives.
Speaker 2: You some information.
Speaker 1: It says the EVSESE shall have sufficient rating to supply
the load served. Electric vehicle charging loads shall be considered
to be continuous loads for the purpose of this article. Okay,
we got it. For the purpose of what article article
six twenty five. It goes on to say service and
feeders shall be sized in accordance with the product's rating. Okay,
so that would in line with the you don't know
you're using seventy two hundred twenty nine to fifty seven.
If you do know, then you're going to use the
name plate that would align it that the product rating.
But it goes on, and this is a significant change
in the twenty twenty three where it says, unless the
overall rating of the installation can be limited through controls
as permitted in six twenty five, forty two A or B,
A is dealing with energy management systems EMS. Now for
a residence, you're not going to have that. Okay, that's
probably not going to be a condition you're going to
be working on, because then it's going to send you
to seven fifty for you know. And at that point
you're like, no, I don't think that I'm going to
be dealing with anything that's going to be remotely dealing
with energy management systems in a residential application. Okay, I
mean I could stand corrected, and I've seen some big
twelve thirteen, fourteen thousand square foot homes that probably do
have an extensive energy management system, but in reality you
might be dealing more with B. Now B is an
EVSC with an adjustable setting. Now what it says is
the EVSC with restricted access. Okay, restricted access. This is
access to people that will have pass codes or not
just the the Tom, Dick and Harry, not just the homeowner.
So if you can restrict this access to the ampier
adjusting means complying with seven fifty A shall be permitted.
So again I shudder to even mention it, because I
think most people are just going to use the seventies
hundred of the name plate and be done with it,
because you really don't have these options.
Speaker 2: But let's assume you do. Let's assume you.
Speaker 1: Can meet the requirements of seven fifty thirty C, which
is basically capacity of the branch or the feed of
the service. So this has some things that you have
to meet and if you get and if you can
meet these and one of them, for example, is a
software that has a password protection that limits the access
to only qualified persons only. And let's assume you can
meet all this, right, and maybe that's integral. You have
one of these fancy EVSs it has this all integral
to it, uh like Tesla's and things like that. Let's
assume that you can meet that, then it shall be permitted.
So if this adjustments have an impact on the rated label,
those changes shall be in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions,
and the adjusted ratings shall appear on the rating label
with sufficient durability to withstand their environment involved as a
reference shall be permitted to have opacity ratings that are
equal to the adjusted current setting. All right, So again
you may be able to do this with proper labeling
meeting all the requirements to the under seven to fifty
thirty C.
Speaker 2: Even if it's just for this specific EVS.
Speaker 1: With adjustable settings, then you may be able to dial
it back.
Speaker 2: And we've talked about this.
Speaker 1: This allows existing services to be able to have EVSs
on it that normally wouldn't be able to be added
to it. Obviously, the more that you have, the quicker
it will charge. Right, more current it's gonna draw quicker
you're going to charge this vehicle. But yeah, I might
be able to dial it back simply because I don't
have the capacity and it would be able to go
on this service. And again, as long as the label
and electrician that installs it understands all the.
Speaker 2: Nuances, I don't see any problem with it at all.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're gonna limit the load and you
can keep people from mucking it up, then I don't
have a.
Speaker 2: Problem with it at all.
Speaker 1: But to answer the general quick question, we're talking seventy
two hundred as a baseline or the nameplate, whichever is greater.
The name plate is going to be the direct full
amount from the actual EVSSE. Okay, you only get to
worry about this and again this modifies and supplements, Okay,
anything in chapter two provided you can meet all these caveats.
If you can't meet these caveats, then you can't use it.
You're just going to go with the name plate or
seventy two hundred, whichever is greater in your overall load calculation. Now,
the beautiful thing about this is that this one in
six twenty five does permit me some leeway, a leeway
on existing services.
Speaker 2: So it's great to see it.
Speaker 1: If you have this kind of feature built into your EVSSE,
or if you do have an e MS system, probably
commercial buildings will have you EMS systems, Energy management systems.
Probably industrial facilities may have some of that in it
out any residential will, but you very well could have
an EVS with adjustable settings and meet all the requirements
of seven fifty dot thirty C.
Speaker 2: In order to be able to utilize it.
Speaker 1: And it may be through a simple app and maybe
through an interlock system, whatever, you get some options. So
I wanted to make sure I followed up that question
with that gentleman, because again I answered the base question.
But the more I got to thinking about his question,
with the reference to feeder and the reference to service,
that it was more than just asking about a name
plate right now. One of the things that I well mention,
by the way, is that in this example, when it
talks about it, notice that it says service and feeder
in six twenty five forty two. That is totally different
than you running a branch circuit, the brand circuit to
an EVSC for example, there's no overcurrent protection at the unit,
so it is just a brand circuit. It's on the
load side of your overcurrent protected device. You don't get
the allowance in six twenty five forty two for that
because that only PLASTA feeders and service.
Speaker 2: So for brand circuit.
Speaker 1: Sizing, it takes us back to nameplate or seventy two
hundred to size that brand circuit. It reminds us to
treat it as a continuous load and do all those
things typically probably already figured into the name plate that's
on the EVSC anyway. Uh. And you're gonna have instructions
from the manufacturer, just make sure you correlate them to
the NEC versus the manufacturer's instructions, because the manufacturers cannot
circumvent the minimum safety standard. They can go above it,
but they can't go below it, despite what people want
to say. So follow the NEC is a minimum safety standard.
If the manufacturer goes above it, then you can go
above it, okay, because if you don't, you might avoid
some warranty with them.
Speaker 2: But you're at least meeting the code, but you cannot
go below it.
Speaker 1: If a manufacturer says you can, then you need to
reach out to them because you're only increasing your liability
if you do that. I'm just saying, all right, okay, folks,
that's some great episodes today. I want to thank every
everybody for joining me on this episode of Let's Ask Paul,
and again.
Speaker 2: You know how you can get involved. All you've got
to do.
Speaker 1: Is send me in a communication by going to Paul
Abernathy dot com and I get it.
Speaker 2: I talk really fast.
Speaker 1: So play this thing back and you'll get more out
of it the second time, all right, And if you
play it backwards, you go to hell. Take care of
God blessed, sing you on the next episode.