1 00:00:04,839 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 2: S What Up? What Up? Everybody? 2 00:00:33,079 --> 00:00:36,039 Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast 3 00:00:36,079 --> 00:00:38,880 where you get to ask me Paul Abernathy anything you 4 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:43,359 want about the National Electrical Code and all things electrically related. 5 00:00:43,439 --> 00:00:45,759 Thanks for joining me today on the podcast. If you've 6 00:00:45,759 --> 00:00:49,280 been listening, we also have another podcast called Master the 7 00:00:49,439 --> 00:00:52,240 NEC Podcast, so make sure you look for that on 8 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,399 all your popular podcast listening platforms. Just search for Master 9 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:58,520 the n EAC Podcast and. 10 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: So get it. 11 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: And we have over a thousand episodes of all different 12 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:04,760 types of topics. 13 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:06,599 Speaker 2: You just kind of go through there and listen. 14 00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:09,359 Speaker 1: It's great to listen in a shower, Believe it or not, 15 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,719 Bluetooth devices and the showers I do maybe too much information, 16 00:01:13,879 --> 00:01:16,239 but you can also listen on your phone, stream it 17 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,200 to your car player, you can do it on the 18 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,480 job site, your earbuds, whatever. And we have all kinds 19 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,000 of episodes for all different things. 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You can also 29 00:01:48,719 --> 00:01:51,319 listen to both podcasts on our mobile app. You can 30 00:01:51,319 --> 00:01:54,680 get both the Let's Ask Paul and Master the NEC podcast. 31 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:56,120 I don't know if you knew that or not, but 32 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,200 get our free mobile app. It's available over on our 33 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:03,400 website fastracksystem dot com. Doesn't cost you a dime. You 34 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,079 can also get it at any ced chat. That's any 35 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,319 c c chat dot com as well, if you want 36 00:02:09,319 --> 00:02:12,319 to pick it up that way, that's fine. That's sponsored 37 00:02:12,319 --> 00:02:16,039 by Wicks anyway. So today I thought we'd answer some 38 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,319 questions that were submitted to the Let's Ask Paul podcast 39 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:21,879 and kind of clear up some questions if people have 40 00:02:21,879 --> 00:02:24,080 been asking. Again, I have a backload of these, but 41 00:02:24,159 --> 00:02:27,159 we do have some that Darlene has pushed forward to 42 00:02:27,199 --> 00:02:29,280 me that we want to make sure that we do cover, 43 00:02:30,439 --> 00:02:31,879 and so we're gonna do that today. 44 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 2: We'll do our best to try to cover those, all right. 45 00:02:34,439 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: The first thing that was sent to me was basically 46 00:02:37,439 --> 00:02:39,960 it said, in a cross space or under a trailer, 47 00:02:40,439 --> 00:02:43,120 would you need to install a weather proof junction box 48 00:02:43,319 --> 00:02:47,360 or could a metal junction with a non metallic junction 49 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,240 box be fine. I'm guess I'm assuming a metal or 50 00:02:50,319 --> 00:02:54,400 non metallic would be fine. I referenced three fourteen fifteen, 51 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,879 but not sure. Also, I'm assuming any wire coming down 52 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:04,520 would need to be UF rated for weatherproof. Okay, So 53 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,599 any cable coming down, it's probably what you're talking about. Uh. 54 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,000 If it was a wiring method coming down, then again, 55 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,159 depending on whether or not we consider that a wet 56 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,360 location or a damp location or not, I'll give you 57 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,039 my thoughts on that. But if it is a wetter 58 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:19,919 damp location, and obviously we have to use a wiring 59 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,960 method it's rated for such, Okay, non metallic sheath cable 60 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,759 for example, poking it down. If it is a wetter 61 00:03:25,879 --> 00:03:28,479 damp location, then you obviously know that you can't use 62 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,080 non metallic sheath cable, and you also could not leave 63 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,560 it in a raceway in a wet and damp location 64 00:03:33,719 --> 00:03:37,199 outside and think that your can use non metallic sheath 65 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,840 cable because you can't, but you could with UF cable. 66 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,560 And I think that's what he's alluding to. So at 67 00:03:43,599 --> 00:03:46,520 the end of the day. What we want to remember 68 00:03:46,639 --> 00:03:49,479 is that in that cross base or actually under that trailer, 69 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,080 the type of junction box or the wiring methods that 70 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,639 are used really depends on the environmental condition that it 71 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,759 is exposed to. And a lot of this is going 72 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,080 to have to be something that the AHJ will look at. 73 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,199 I mean, three fourteen fifteen makes it very clear. Enclosures 74 00:04:05,199 --> 00:04:07,400 in boxes installed in wet and damp locations got to 75 00:04:07,439 --> 00:04:09,960 be weather proof. I have to be rated for the 76 00:04:10,039 --> 00:04:12,039 environment that they're being located in. And of course that 77 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:13,800 would go hand in hand with any of the wiring 78 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,319 methods as well, which you could look under. Use is 79 00:04:16,319 --> 00:04:18,720 permitted and use is not permitted, of the various wiring 80 00:04:18,759 --> 00:04:23,319 methods that you're interested in. And at the end of 81 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,839 the day, is this something that it's going to have 82 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:31,120 to be an h j's call, because really, if you 83 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:32,800 think about it, and I'm going to speak from an 84 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,160 HJ perspective on this one, if you have a trailer, 85 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,279 these are standardized and anytime you come out of the 86 00:04:39,399 --> 00:04:42,120 envelope of the trailer, whether it's underneath it and you 87 00:04:42,199 --> 00:04:45,079 have some skirting around it or whatnot, you're considered outside 88 00:04:45,079 --> 00:04:49,040 of the trailer, so I would consider it outside. Now, 89 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,480 whether it's a wet location or damplication, that's going to 90 00:04:51,519 --> 00:04:55,519 be jurisdictional. I personally think if it's underneath the trailer, 91 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,079 it's more damp than it would be wet. Right, And 92 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,600 we have definition an article one hundred that gives us 93 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,920 some clarity on damp, wet, and dry. But since a 94 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:10,040 trailer like that, like a mobile home or job site trailer, 95 00:05:10,519 --> 00:05:12,879 since we're coming out of that envelope of the trailer 96 00:05:12,959 --> 00:05:15,120 coming outside, whether it's on the bottom or on the 97 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,079 sides or wherever, then it is outside of that. And 98 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,279 so just because I may put some skirting around it 99 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,160 at the end of the day, it's outside, it's just underneath, 100 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,279 and it may kick it from being a wet location 101 00:05:27,439 --> 00:05:30,560 into a damp location. But this is going to definitely 102 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:35,439 be something that the AHJ is going to have to 103 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,680 be worked with because, you know what, they could look 104 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:43,120 at it differently. They might know geographically something different in 105 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,079 the area. There may be evidence of flooding, there may 106 00:05:46,079 --> 00:05:49,439 be evidence of moisture underneath or whatever. So they're going 107 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:50,439 to be the ones to make the call. 108 00:05:50,959 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: For me. 109 00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: I'm telling electricians, Look, let's not try to make it complicated. 110 00:05:56,639 --> 00:05:59,959 If you're coming outside of the envelope of the structure, 111 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,600 then it's going to be either a wet or damp location. 112 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 2: Okay. 113 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: If you use a product that's raaded for wet location, 114 00:06:07,399 --> 00:06:09,360 then you're going to buy default be okay in a 115 00:06:09,439 --> 00:06:12,800 damp location. Something that's ready for a damplication may not 116 00:06:13,079 --> 00:06:14,959 be adequate for a wet location. 117 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: So those are the type of things. Use your best 118 00:06:17,879 --> 00:06:18,639 judgment in that. 119 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,439 Speaker 1: But not knowing more details on the situation or what 120 00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:23,720 it looks like, I use the golden rule. If you're 121 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,800 going outside of the actual structure, then you're going. 122 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 2: To be outside that type of thing. You get me, 123 00:06:30,639 --> 00:06:31,000 all right. 124 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:32,519 Speaker 1: So that's where we're at on that and hopefully that 125 00:06:32,519 --> 00:06:34,240 it helps you out at least give you my opinion 126 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,519 on that. So again, thanks for submitting that question over 127 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,000 at Paulabernathy dot com and you know you can do 128 00:06:41,079 --> 00:06:43,920 it also. Just go to Paul Abernathy dot com in 129 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,680 simple little form, send it to me, let me know 130 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,879 the code cycle you're in, and give me as much 131 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,680 detail as you can, and I'll be more than happy 132 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,959 to try to give you my opinion on it. Again, 133 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,199 my opinion is no different than NFPA's opinion because they 134 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,279 typically give a non formal okay, or we call it 135 00:07:01,319 --> 00:07:04,920 an informal opinion. Basically, it's just an opinion, no different 136 00:07:04,959 --> 00:07:07,839 than everybody else's opinion. I base mine based on experience 137 00:07:09,079 --> 00:07:12,319 because I've been doing this for nearly forty years. But 138 00:07:12,399 --> 00:07:14,480 at the end of the day, you're gonna have to 139 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,600 use good sound judgment as well, based on the condition 140 00:07:18,639 --> 00:07:20,720 of use, and so that's important for you to really 141 00:07:20,759 --> 00:07:23,079 think about that as well. Okay, So hopefully that helps 142 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,720 you with that one. All right, the next question, let's 143 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,399 see what have we got here on the schedule here? 144 00:07:29,439 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: What did you share with me? Okay? 145 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,519 Speaker 1: The next question it was asked, is it says, is 146 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:39,199 there a code that prohibits an electrical panel under a 147 00:07:39,399 --> 00:07:45,399 stairwell area? Okay, all right, so I guess I guess 148 00:07:45,439 --> 00:07:50,199 we're talking about underneath the stairway stairwell. Is there anything 149 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,120 that would prohibit the application? Well, as far as the 150 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,199 National Electrical Code is concerned, there is nothing. 151 00:07:59,199 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: Specifically that would prohibit it. 152 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: But you do have clearance issues you got to be 153 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:07,680 aware of, so you got to make sure you meet 154 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:08,319 all the requirements. 155 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: At one ten dot twenty six. Okay, you have your 156 00:08:11,279 --> 00:08:11,879 your your. 157 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: Clearance thirty inches in any direction left and right, you're 158 00:08:15,279 --> 00:08:17,160 typically probably going to be three feet out. 159 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:18,399 Speaker 2: You can have your height. 160 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,959 Speaker 1: So you have to meet all of the requirements at 161 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,480 one ten dot twenty six. Now that may or may 162 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,720 not be something that you can meet underneath that that's stairwell. 163 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,159 But you know what, if it was a room you 164 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,399 stand up and you had the working clearances and you 165 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,559 had everything that you needed to have, there's nothing in 166 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,960 the nec that says that you that you can't put 167 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:42,279 it there. 168 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 2: I mean, it's also have to be readily accessible. 169 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,399 Speaker 1: So again we'll assume that all of this is in 170 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:51,240 place and you've got the working clearances and you're in 171 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,399 it's readily accessible to the overcurrent devices and everything like that, 172 00:08:55,519 --> 00:08:58,600 and it's not a closet that's being used with combustible 173 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:00,799 material in it. Then at the end of the day, 174 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,080 I don't see a problem with it at all. So 175 00:09:04,799 --> 00:09:07,120 that's the things that you're going to have to be 176 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,159 aware of. Okay, so you got to meet all those 177 00:09:09,159 --> 00:09:11,720 clearance issues. You have to make sure and really know 178 00:09:11,759 --> 00:09:14,159 the location you're put above them that there's nothing in 179 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,240 the code. Now, the code has prohibited statements, for example, 180 00:09:18,279 --> 00:09:22,320 putting panels over stairs things like that, but you can 181 00:09:22,399 --> 00:09:25,000 actually and even in a stairwell, you could have a 182 00:09:25,039 --> 00:09:27,320 panel in there if it's over the landing and you 183 00:09:27,399 --> 00:09:30,919 still have the clearances right left and right in front of. 184 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 2: It, up height above it. 185 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,879 Speaker 1: If you have all of that space, then that would 186 00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:38,279 be acceptable as well. There's nothing that prepped now. It's 187 00:09:38,279 --> 00:09:42,399 prohibited over stairs but not on a landing. So again 188 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,799 that's just some extra information. But at the end of 189 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:46,240 the day, it doesn't seem like that would be the 190 00:09:46,279 --> 00:09:49,799 most prudent place to do something like that anyway. But 191 00:09:49,879 --> 00:09:52,559 you know, hey, far bit from me to tell you 192 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,519 how to do your install I'm saying. But as far 193 00:09:54,519 --> 00:09:56,720 as answering your question, though, there's nothing that prohibits it 194 00:09:57,039 --> 00:10:01,399 in a stairwell area except for again working clearances and 195 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,320 heights and everything that you need to access it, and 196 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,480 they readily accessible and all that stuff. If that all 197 00:10:06,519 --> 00:10:13,559 is good, then hey, no problem at all putting it there. Okay, Okay, 198 00:10:13,639 --> 00:10:16,519 we have another question that was submitted and I've actually 199 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,559 answered this question in an email to the Gentleman. 200 00:10:20,639 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 2: I had to do a follow up to this. 201 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: The reason I had to a follow up is that, 202 00:10:24,639 --> 00:10:26,480 you know, I got to thinking about this one and 203 00:10:28,279 --> 00:10:30,759 realize that this is one of those questions where you 204 00:10:30,759 --> 00:10:34,600 could dig a little deeper, and digging deeper means that 205 00:10:34,919 --> 00:10:36,799 we can get way more meaning out of the question. 206 00:10:36,919 --> 00:10:40,720 This has to do with ev SSE. Okay, So here's 207 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,879 a question. It says, hey, Paul, thanks for your input 208 00:10:42,919 --> 00:10:45,240 the other day, and as always, thank you for what 209 00:10:45,279 --> 00:10:47,320 you do to the industry or do for the industry. 210 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,120 I do what I do to the industry. It says, 211 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,080 I would like your opinion on to on the twenty 212 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,360 twenty three NEC article to twenty fifty seven evsc load. 213 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,039 My question involves around the term name plate rating. Is 214 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,919 a name plate rating going to be the maximum rating 215 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,080 of the ev SSE or does a name plate rating 216 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,639 of the unit adjust to the setting of the unit 217 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,279 for purposes of the service and feeder calculation. Does the 218 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,320 EVSE E with the maximum load let's say of forty 219 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,960 eight amps nameplate get charged? Get charged to the thirty 220 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,120 two amps of the unit? Is adjustable to thirty two amps? Thanks, 221 00:11:29,399 --> 00:11:32,320 thank you and the individual. Okay, so this is a 222 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:33,919 weird question. So I got to think it about it. 223 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:38,080 So it's pretty clear that the name plate rating of 224 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:44,039 the EVSSE, especially when it comes to that code reference. Okay, 225 00:11:44,159 --> 00:11:48,519 so fifty seven, So for those that are familiar with that, 226 00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:51,559 that is something that's that has been added into into 227 00:11:51,639 --> 00:11:54,559 the twenty twenty three NEC. Now, prior to this, you 228 00:11:54,639 --> 00:11:56,240 had to take it for account. You had to take 229 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,200 it into account anyway. When you're doing a low calculation, 230 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:03,559 it's typically all under your two twenty dot fourteen other loads, 231 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,360 and you're just gonna put it into your calculation because 232 00:12:06,399 --> 00:12:09,799 you obviously have to account for it. You just can't say, oh, 233 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,679 I don't nowhere in the code to account for it, 234 00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:14,960 so I don't have to do anything. But no, that's 235 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,200 that's not what it says. So I did answer the 236 00:12:17,279 --> 00:12:19,039 question for the gentleman. But then I got to think 237 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:20,720 in and I got to think, and you know what, 238 00:12:20,799 --> 00:12:23,080 I need to give you more detail how you may 239 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,399 use this in the real world. 240 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 2: And so what it says in two twenty. 241 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: Dot fifty seven for those out there, it's all it 242 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:36,399 did was introduce a set wattage value or VA WATS 243 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,759 or VA however you want to like it. And it's 244 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,279 what you use in a calculation, especially if you don't 245 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,840 know what type of EVS, which is electric vehicle supply equipment. 246 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,759 If you don't know what it is, it's giving you 247 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,120 a default amount if you know one's going in. If 248 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:53,519 you're drawing show in EVSSE and nobody gives you the 249 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,879 name you know the name plate, nobody gives you the information, right, 250 00:12:58,639 --> 00:13:03,320 then you're sitting there going, Okay, I don't have anything 251 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,720 to work with. So here's what the code says. Now, 252 00:13:05,759 --> 00:13:08,519 So to twenty fifty seven, which is says electric vehicle 253 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,039 supply Equipment load. It says the EVS loads shall be 254 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,000 calculated at either seventy two hundred watts or VA or 255 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,200 the nameplate rating of the equipment, whichever is larger. So 256 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,000 the question really was asking me. Originally the question was 257 00:13:24,039 --> 00:13:26,799 asking me, is how what is the nameplate? Is the 258 00:13:27,039 --> 00:13:29,919 name plate the maximum? And my answer is, and it 259 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,639 still will be that I think that you use the 260 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,879 maximum because we cannot control what. 261 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 2: A end user does. 262 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: Okay, So if we don't know it's seventy two hundred watts. 263 00:13:40,759 --> 00:13:43,519 If we do know and it's greater than that, then 264 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,240 that would be the basis of the nameplate. Okay, now 265 00:13:47,799 --> 00:13:50,399 that is what we would get into twenty to fifty seven, 266 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,279 and that's pretty much kind of what we always had 267 00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:56,240 to do, right, it's an appliant to use the when 268 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,159 we're looking at it, we're going to use the nameplate 269 00:13:58,519 --> 00:14:01,919 because that's all we have. And again in our load calculations, 270 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,200 like for the optional method, which is probably what you're 271 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,720 gonna use ninety nine point nine nine nine nine nine 272 00:14:07,759 --> 00:14:10,960 percent of the time in that scenario, it wants name 273 00:14:11,039 --> 00:14:14,039 plate values. Okay, so you're just gonna pull that and 274 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:15,720 you're gonna get a pretty good. 275 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:18,919 Speaker 2: Uh de rating allowance as well. 276 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,399 Speaker 1: Anyway, Okay, when you're doing that with the optional method, 277 00:14:22,399 --> 00:14:25,440 which is what you know part four of two twenty 278 00:14:25,559 --> 00:14:28,000 so you're just gonna have to treat the EVS as 279 00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:31,320 another appliance. Well, that's what we would do in the 280 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,000 real world up to this point. But then the twenty 281 00:14:34,039 --> 00:14:36,919 twenty three gave us this two twenty fifty seven and said, hey, 282 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,440 you know what, I know that an EVS is an appliance. 283 00:14:39,559 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: I get it, but we're gonna give. 284 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: You a base value to work with, seventy two hundred 285 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,360 watts or the name plate name plate being the value 286 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,759 that's posted on the name plate. Now, the question that 287 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:56,080 I got to thinking about is what about this allowance 288 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,399 in six twenty five that allows me to say, you 289 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,360 know what if I have energy management system or have 290 00:15:02,399 --> 00:15:06,679 the ability to adjust it, and it's only accessible to 291 00:15:06,799 --> 00:15:10,480 authorize people, and I can tune this back a little bit. 292 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 2: Do I have some allowance? 293 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,759 Speaker 1: Well, let's remember a couple things that when we think 294 00:15:15,759 --> 00:15:19,120 about the structure of the National Electrical Code, right, you 295 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,159 have to remember that at first. So we start thinking 296 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,159 about the structure of the code, and we're in chapter 297 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,639 two right now when we're looking at to twenty dot 298 00:15:26,679 --> 00:15:31,120 fifty seven. But we also remember that the evses OKA 299 00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:34,720 is in six twenty five, so that's chapter six, right. 300 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:36,600 So when we go look at the code and we 301 00:15:36,639 --> 00:15:39,279 think about the code Arrangement ninety dot three, what does 302 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,559 it say to us? It says the code is divided 303 00:15:42,879 --> 00:15:46,919 into the introduction and nine chapters. Has shown in figure 304 00:15:47,039 --> 00:15:52,039 ninety oh three, Chapters one, two, three, and four applied generally. 305 00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:57,759 Chapters five, six and seven apply to special occupancy, special 306 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:04,399 equipment OKAY, or other special conditions, and may supplement or 307 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,440 modify the requirements in chapters one through seven. So I 308 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,519 got to thinking about this and I'm like, this is 309 00:16:11,559 --> 00:16:14,759 a perfect example. And I emailed him back because I 310 00:16:14,799 --> 00:16:16,879 know that wasn't his question, but you know, in six 311 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,639 twenty five it's it's one of those things that you're like, Okay, well, 312 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,320 how does this play out? I mean, how would we 313 00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:27,159 work this in to our scenario of what we're dealing with. 314 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:28,879 Speaker 2: And that's when I got to thinking. 315 00:16:28,639 --> 00:16:31,279 Speaker 1: About it, and I'm like, you know what, there are 316 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,960 some situations where you'd be able to do that and 317 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,799 work that in and be able to realize that. 318 00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: You know, wait a minute, maybe I do. 319 00:16:40,679 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: Get to do something that I normally wouldn't do, right, 320 00:16:44,279 --> 00:16:45,679 And you're like, okay, well. 321 00:16:45,559 --> 00:16:46,159 Speaker 2: What does that mean? 322 00:16:46,279 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: So if you actually go to six twenty five dot 323 00:16:48,679 --> 00:16:51,919 forty two, for example, and it gives. 324 00:16:51,759 --> 00:16:52,559 Speaker 2: You some information. 325 00:16:52,639 --> 00:16:56,919 Speaker 1: It says the EVSESE shall have sufficient rating to supply 326 00:16:57,039 --> 00:17:02,000 the load served. Electric vehicle charging loads shall be considered 327 00:17:02,039 --> 00:17:05,920 to be continuous loads for the purpose of this article. Okay, 328 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:08,440 we got it. For the purpose of what article article 329 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,240 six twenty five. It goes on to say service and 330 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:18,400 feeders shall be sized in accordance with the product's rating. Okay, 331 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,359 so that would in line with the you don't know 332 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,839 you're using seventy two hundred twenty nine to fifty seven. 333 00:17:25,279 --> 00:17:27,759 If you do know, then you're going to use the 334 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:30,640 name plate that would align it that the product rating. 335 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,000 But it goes on, and this is a significant change 336 00:17:34,519 --> 00:17:38,559 in the twenty twenty three where it says, unless the 337 00:17:38,759 --> 00:17:44,640 overall rating of the installation can be limited through controls 338 00:17:44,799 --> 00:17:47,640 as permitted in six twenty five, forty two A or B, 339 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,960 A is dealing with energy management systems EMS. Now for 340 00:17:52,039 --> 00:17:54,680 a residence, you're not going to have that. Okay, that's 341 00:17:54,799 --> 00:17:56,839 probably not going to be a condition you're going to 342 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:58,880 be working on, because then it's going to send you 343 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,079 to seven fifty for you know. And at that point 344 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,920 you're like, no, I don't think that I'm going to 345 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,359 be dealing with anything that's going to be remotely dealing 346 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,440 with energy management systems in a residential application. Okay, I 347 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,799 mean I could stand corrected, and I've seen some big 348 00:18:15,839 --> 00:18:19,880 twelve thirteen, fourteen thousand square foot homes that probably do 349 00:18:20,039 --> 00:18:25,079 have an extensive energy management system, but in reality you 350 00:18:25,279 --> 00:18:27,759 might be dealing more with B. Now B is an 351 00:18:27,759 --> 00:18:31,839 EVSC with an adjustable setting. Now what it says is 352 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:37,359 the EVSC with restricted access. Okay, restricted access. This is 353 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,119 access to people that will have pass codes or not 354 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,200 just the the Tom, Dick and Harry, not just the homeowner. 355 00:18:44,279 --> 00:18:46,759 So if you can restrict this access to the ampier 356 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,400 adjusting means complying with seven fifty A shall be permitted. 357 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,480 So again I shudder to even mention it, because I 358 00:18:57,519 --> 00:18:59,880 think most people are just going to use the seventies 359 00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:01,599 hundred of the name plate and be done with it, 360 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,519 because you really don't have these options. 361 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,079 Speaker 2: But let's assume you do. Let's assume you. 362 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,559 Speaker 1: Can meet the requirements of seven fifty thirty C, which 363 00:19:10,599 --> 00:19:12,880 is basically capacity of the branch or the feed of 364 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,039 the service. So this has some things that you have 365 00:19:16,079 --> 00:19:18,000 to meet and if you get and if you can 366 00:19:18,079 --> 00:19:20,839 meet these and one of them, for example, is a 367 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,359 software that has a password protection that limits the access 368 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,480 to only qualified persons only. And let's assume you can 369 00:19:28,519 --> 00:19:32,759 meet all this, right, and maybe that's integral. You have 370 00:19:32,759 --> 00:19:36,640 one of these fancy EVSs it has this all integral 371 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,119 to it, uh like Tesla's and things like that. Let's 372 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,680 assume that you can meet that, then it shall be permitted. 373 00:19:43,799 --> 00:19:47,039 So if this adjustments have an impact on the rated label, 374 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,720 those changes shall be in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, 375 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,599 and the adjusted ratings shall appear on the rating label 376 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:01,480 with sufficient durability to withstand their environment involved as a 377 00:20:01,519 --> 00:20:04,559 reference shall be permitted to have opacity ratings that are 378 00:20:04,599 --> 00:20:10,319 equal to the adjusted current setting. All right, So again 379 00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:14,599 you may be able to do this with proper labeling 380 00:20:14,839 --> 00:20:17,559 meeting all the requirements to the under seven to fifty 381 00:20:17,839 --> 00:20:18,279 thirty C. 382 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 2: Even if it's just for this specific EVS. 383 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,079 Speaker 1: With adjustable settings, then you may be able to dial 384 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:25,640 it back. 385 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:27,759 Speaker 2: And we've talked about this. 386 00:20:27,759 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: This allows existing services to be able to have EVSs 387 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,799 on it that normally wouldn't be able to be added 388 00:20:33,839 --> 00:20:37,160 to it. Obviously, the more that you have, the quicker 389 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,920 it will charge. Right, more current it's gonna draw quicker 390 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,160 you're going to charge this vehicle. But yeah, I might 391 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,119 be able to dial it back simply because I don't 392 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,319 have the capacity and it would be able to go 393 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,359 on this service. And again, as long as the label 394 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:50,640 and electrician that installs it understands all the. 395 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,799 Speaker 2: Nuances, I don't see any problem with it at all. 396 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,319 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're gonna limit the load and you 397 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,480 can keep people from mucking it up, then I don't 398 00:20:57,519 --> 00:20:57,759 have a. 399 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:58,759 Speaker 2: Problem with it at all. 400 00:20:58,799 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: But to answer the general quick question, we're talking seventy 401 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,079 two hundred as a baseline or the nameplate, whichever is greater. 402 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,400 The name plate is going to be the direct full 403 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,839 amount from the actual EVSSE. Okay, you only get to 404 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:17,240 worry about this and again this modifies and supplements, Okay, 405 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,720 anything in chapter two provided you can meet all these caveats. 406 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,480 If you can't meet these caveats, then you can't use it. 407 00:21:26,559 --> 00:21:28,240 You're just going to go with the name plate or 408 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,920 seventy two hundred, whichever is greater in your overall load calculation. Now, 409 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,960 the beautiful thing about this is that this one in 410 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,359 six twenty five does permit me some leeway, a leeway 411 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:41,519 on existing services. 412 00:21:41,559 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 2: So it's great to see it. 413 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: If you have this kind of feature built into your EVSSE, 414 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,000 or if you do have an e MS system, probably 415 00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:55,279 commercial buildings will have you EMS systems, Energy management systems. 416 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,319 Probably industrial facilities may have some of that in it 417 00:22:00,039 --> 00:22:03,160 out any residential will, but you very well could have 418 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,799 an EVS with adjustable settings and meet all the requirements 419 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:08,000 of seven fifty dot thirty C. 420 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 2: In order to be able to utilize it. 421 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: And it may be through a simple app and maybe 422 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,839 through an interlock system, whatever, you get some options. So 423 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,680 I wanted to make sure I followed up that question 424 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,839 with that gentleman, because again I answered the base question. 425 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,440 But the more I got to thinking about his question, 426 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,039 with the reference to feeder and the reference to service, 427 00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:30,319 that it was more than just asking about a name 428 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,119 plate right now. One of the things that I well mention, 429 00:22:34,599 --> 00:22:38,920 by the way, is that in this example, when it 430 00:22:39,079 --> 00:22:41,920 talks about it, notice that it says service and feeder 431 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,160 in six twenty five forty two. That is totally different 432 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,440 than you running a branch circuit, the brand circuit to 433 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,720 an EVSC for example, there's no overcurrent protection at the unit, 434 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:53,640 so it is just a brand circuit. It's on the 435 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,200 load side of your overcurrent protected device. You don't get 436 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,279 the allowance in six twenty five forty two for that 437 00:22:59,319 --> 00:23:01,359 because that only PLASTA feeders and service. 438 00:23:01,839 --> 00:23:03,279 Speaker 2: So for brand circuit. 439 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,519 Speaker 1: Sizing, it takes us back to nameplate or seventy two 440 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,440 hundred to size that brand circuit. It reminds us to 441 00:23:10,519 --> 00:23:13,119 treat it as a continuous load and do all those 442 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,839 things typically probably already figured into the name plate that's 443 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,240 on the EVSC anyway. Uh. And you're gonna have instructions 444 00:23:20,279 --> 00:23:23,240 from the manufacturer, just make sure you correlate them to 445 00:23:23,319 --> 00:23:28,119 the NEC versus the manufacturer's instructions, because the manufacturers cannot 446 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,440 circumvent the minimum safety standard. They can go above it, 447 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,680 but they can't go below it, despite what people want 448 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,880 to say. So follow the NEC is a minimum safety standard. 449 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,599 If the manufacturer goes above it, then you can go 450 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,759 above it, okay, because if you don't, you might avoid 451 00:23:42,799 --> 00:23:43,839 some warranty with them. 452 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 2: But you're at least meeting the code, but you cannot 453 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:47,480 go below it. 454 00:23:47,559 --> 00:23:50,079 Speaker 1: If a manufacturer says you can, then you need to 455 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,720 reach out to them because you're only increasing your liability 456 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,559 if you do that. I'm just saying, all right, okay, folks, 457 00:23:56,759 --> 00:24:00,000 that's some great episodes today. I want to thank every 458 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,559 everybody for joining me on this episode of Let's Ask Paul, 459 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:03,359 and again. 460 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 2: You know how you can get involved. All you've got 461 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:05,759 to do. 462 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: Is send me in a communication by going to Paul 463 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,960 Abernathy dot com and I get it. 464 00:24:13,039 --> 00:24:14,079 Speaker 2: I talk really fast. 465 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: So play this thing back and you'll get more out 466 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,440 of it the second time, all right, And if you 467 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,519 play it backwards, you go to hell. Take care of 468 00:24:20,519 --> 00:24:50,680 God blessed, sing you on the next episode.