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Everything's there. I want to welcome everyone back to the
Peking Yona's show. Kurt from Anelope Pills here. How you doing, Kurt?
Speaker 2: Hey, I'm doing well. Thanks for having me having me back.
I think I believe I was here a couple of
months ago, although I can't recall precisely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've I've had three or four guys now from
analopeil On. We always have good discussions because we're talking about, uh,
you know one of my favorite topics, which is broadly
speaking books, and uh, it's no different this time. So
what's it is? It been a year now that you
put you put out this book, Geibel's Battle for Brulin.
Speaker 2: Battle for Ruin. It's been out for a while. It's
it's been long enough that I've lost track of exactly
where it is in the in the releases list, So uh,
six months a year, I'm not sure exactly, but yeah,
we've headed out for quite a bit.
Speaker 1: Cool. Well, I'm glad to finally get to talking about
it because the guys sent me a copy when it dropped,
and yeah, immediately jumped into it because I think you
guys are the ones who put it into English, right,
I think the there was French version, there was obviously
a Jarman version. How many other is that it is
that the ones you're aware of.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure off the top of my head, but
this is definitely the first English version, or at least
the first professionally done English version. That's the case with
most of our translations. If there is an English version,
oftentimes there will be one that's available online that's, you know,
machine translated, something like that. Generally, if something's already in English,
we won't bother with it unless it's something we think
is really important to have republished for some reason.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this does tell a great story from the
pen of the man himself. So why don't you give
us a give us an introduction into you know, well,
first of all, why did Antelope Hill think that this
was so important to publish? And then you guys start
getting into it.
Speaker 2: Sure, well, we've had a few books on this sort
of topic within sort of Third Reich studies or Third
Reich literature. The time period of well, in between the
beer Hall Putsch and the actual rise of power, it
tends to get glossed over in popular history. What most
people know about it is that there was the first
attempt in twenty three with the beer Hall Putsch and
Hitler gets arrested, and then he gets out, and then
he comes to power. Sort of as simple as that,
as far as most people are concerned. What they don't
know as much about is the mechanics of exactly how
that transpired, how they were able to come back from
their leader being arrested for treason, the party being banned,
large parts of it breaking off into splinter groups or
local organization, or people just getting disheartened and going home,
and then managing to whip it back into shape and
actually rise to be the largest party in Germany. Of course,
this was no easy task, and even before the beer
hall push, It's worth keeping in mind that the NSDAP
was basically a regional party. Its real strength was in
Bavaria and almost nowhere else. They had some local party
chapters in other places, but they were insignificant. The Bavarian
party was really the core of it. Goebbels, of course,
he actually he doesn't start off in Berlin or in Bavaria.
His real claim to fame before he moves to the
Berlin party is organizing in the Rhineland. The Rhineland, of course,
was very heavily proletarian. It's the most industrial part of
Germany was actually the scene of quite a few left
wing uprisings in the twenties, and so that was its
own whole battle, one that I'd like to do a
book about sometime in the future, but sadly I haven't
found anything good yet. So when he moves to Berlin,
the party has already made sort of a comeback, It's
exploded in popularity, right. But Berlin itself is sort of
the crown jewel missing from the NSDAP's crown breaking into
Berlin of course, just being the political capital, the forces
of the state, of the security apparatus of the other parties,
they're very strong in Berlin, and Berlin's also heavily proletarian
as well. The left wing movements, they are very strong.
Berlin is really seen as a red stronghold, and so
coming in and cracking that. Uh, Obviously, they sort of
select Goebbels because he's got a proven track record from
his work in the Rhineland, and Berlin really becomes the
toughest fight of all of them. And I think that's
why we like to focus on the Berlin aspect of
the Rise to Power. And uh, this is I think
our our third or fourth book that's pretty heavily focused
on Berlin as the scene of the heaviest political fighting
in this time period.
Speaker 1: Well, the you know, Berlin is normally described as like
the political, economic, and cultural center of Germany. And yeah,
at that time, the book points out that it wasn't
a it wasn't a homogeneous city, but that is you know,
when we talk about cities not being homogeneous, now we're
talking about something much different. Berlin was mostly people except
for people who had come in from the outside. Most
of the people in Berlin were Germans, just from different
parts of the country. Just like any any large country
that has big cities, people from people from all over
are going to flocks at them. That's correct, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Berlin is the political capital, of course, since
eighteen seventy one seventy two, the capital of the United Germany.
It transformed very rapidly, and it brought in people from
all across Germany, like you noted, a lot of or
an expanding proletariat, as well as of course political leads
from all over, financial elites from all over also, the
it was really the hub of national media, and Goebels
points this out that the pace of the media environment
in Berlin moves much faster than anywhere else, probably compare
New York City somewhat in this respect, and that causes
certain problems for them and also certain opportunities. But they
really have to change their tactics to keep up with
how fast paced Berlin as a city, and how the
people there aren't really as rooted as in other places,
even the Rhineland. Gogel's notes, well, the Ryeland was rapidly industrializing,
rapidly growing, challenging in that way. Most of the working
class in the Rhineland were sort of first or second generation,
coming out of the peasant classes, whereas Berlin is being
much more cosmopolitan, much more or bourgeois in certain ways.
It's sort of a whole new world that he has
to adjust to.
Speaker 1: Well, when he gets there, he has to mobilize for support,
and he describes like three groups supporters, bystanders, and opponents.
He says, basically, supporters you're there for to offer them inspiration,
Provocation is ord used for bystanders, and threats to opponents.
Considering how revolutionary it was at the time, the Communist
Party Deutschland was, probably how much bigger would you say
it was at this point? Than the NSCAP was.
Speaker 2: You know, I think they might have already eclipsed them
in total numbers nationwide. But Communist support was heavily localized
in the industrial areas, and Lynn was and was an
industrial center itself, in addition to just being the political center.
And in Berlin they were very powerful. When when Goebels
shows up, at least by by his account and by
some of the accounts and other books we published, the
local n SDAP is like twelve guys in a basement.
It's it's tiny, it's ineffective, and they're already in fighting
with each other, really accomplishing nothing. It's by his account,
barely anyone even knows that there's a Berlin chapter of
the n SDAP. They still kind of regard them as
a provincial party.
Speaker 1: So basically what their their goal was is or his
goal was polarized rhetoric that's polarizing, that mobilizes support through
basically dividing. I mean, you have to basically become a
partisan because, uh, the threat of communism taking over is
is so strong at this point, especially since they have
international support, that you're you have to seek to drive
a wedge through people, and I guess nobody. Nobody did
it better when it came to uh to writing and
you know, using using language than Golibeles at that point.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. He talks a lot about how the first
battle is sort of just to be noticed at all,
and that they have to cross that bridge before they
can even start convincing anyone or or driving support to
the party. He's quite satisfied when the left wing press
starts uh writing all kinds of of defamatory stories about
them and accusing them of all sorts of criminal acts
and all of that, and he just kind of laughs
and says, well, at least they're talking about us, which
is a sentiment I think it'll be pretty commonly understood
by people on the right in the United States today.
The most effective tactic that the media has used here
is simply ignoring us. And it seems to have been
the same for Gobles all these years ago.
Speaker 1: On top of you know, for lack of a better phrase,
propaganda and basically drawing attentions to themselves street violence was
talk a little bit about the street violence that was
happening at that time. I don't think, you know, those
of us who come to with libertarianism all you really
hear about when it comes to Wymar is inflation. It's
all economic policy, and people just most people don't have
an understand ending of just exactly how much revolutionary action
was going on there, and even way before this, but
you know this would be with him coming and becoming
guy lighter, there was no way that it wasn't going
to amp up by necessity.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely. He does talk quite a bit about well,
there's sort of two different variants of street violence that
take place in his narrative. There's the big clashes that
they're usually at least somewhat prepared for, sometimes they even
provoke it a bit, and then there's the sort of
everyday street violence, so big ones. For example, there's a
pretty action packed account of a meeting that they hold
in I forget the exact name of it, but it
was one of the venues that the communists themselves liked
to use, and so when they rented it out, when
the NSCAP rented it out, this, of course, the communists
are incensed. They're you know, determined to go in there
and throw them out and show them that they won't
get their way in the red part of town. And
this is where you get the big archetypal beer hall brawl,
people throwing glasses and breaking chairs over each other's heads
and that sort of thing, and it spills out into
the street and the police get involved and all that
kind of stuff. But sort of the more concerning thing
as far as they were concerned was the sort of
everyday attacks on their supporters, situations where communists or whoever
else was determined to use violence again would simply attack
a party member on his way home from work out
in public, or ambush small groups of them when they
were doing propaganda actions, that sort of thing, And it
really he notes that this really wasn't something that was
taking place early on, right when he got there. At first,
their enemies were sort of content to laugh at them
and belittle them and ignore them when they could, and
this gave them enough of a chance to build up
a solid core of wellve, dedicated men before the real
violence started kicking off. And then sort of as soon
as they as soon as their enemies belatedly realized that
they weren't going away that easily, that's when the violence
all started kicking off. That's when people started getting attacked
in the streets ganged up on coming home from the
bar at the end of the day, all that sort
of thing. And they had guys in the hospitals constantly,
even notes at times there would be Communist supporters in
the hospitals who would then further attack. There are guys
that were sent there and they were actually, out of necessity,
had to either treat their own supporters at private homes
with whatever resources they could scrape together, or post guards
essentially in the hospitals to keep them from getting further abused.
I mean, it really it escalated very quickly and all
at once and turned into a very dire situation.
Speaker 1: What was the legal reactions of this at the time.
I mean, you basically have revolutionary violence in the street,
and I guess I guess the big question that comes
up is when you really start getting down to this
is how you know, we know in the early twenties,
people will get thrown into jail. Fear was drown and
was drown in jail. But how are people staying out
of jail? How are you able to have basically, you know,
what is essentially militias in the street, And you know,
I think people would just want to know about law
and order at that time. How do you get away
with this? If? How do you get past law and order?
Speaker 2: Sure, well, you know. I think the primary reason is
that law enforcement and investigative tactics and technology just really
weren't there at this time period. They didn't have a
mass surveillance state, didn't have security cameras, they didn't have
anything really, and unless you had witnesses who could point
out a suspect, or if the police managed to tain
someone to find a weapon on them, that kind of thing,
then largely nothing really happened. It's worth keeping in mind
I think that this type of partisans street violence is
really not something that any law enforcement group is really
prepared to combat. When things get this radicalized, the point
where enough people are committing enough violence in the streets,
they're going to be overwhelmed. The investigative resources simply aren't there.
The other thing I think is the German legal system
at this time period, at least from what I can
gather from these sort of accounts, you're not going to
see the sort of what they would consider draconian punishments
that you see mated out in the United States for
this type of violence. Assaults don't land you in prison
for five ten years. It's more like a fine and
maybe a couple of months and they're out on the
street again. The authorities in Germany at the time seemed
very reluctant to sort of bring the boot down on
this kind of stuff, even if they had had the ability.
At most times, it's well a combination of selective enforcement,
for example, sort of warrantless searches and raids on party
headquarters and that sort of thing, and they have to
be very careful. Firearms are something that will get someone
in a lot of trouble in this time period, so
most of them forget firearms and use other kinds of weapons.
It's a a lot more fists and improvised weapons. Again,
with like the beer hall brawl situations, no one is
bringing guns to those. They're smashing each other upside the
head with beer steins and that sort of thing that
keeps a lot of heat off of them. But more broadly,
the method that the police and the state tend to
use is just going after the organizations themselves. Right. They
sort of know who's organizing the violence, and when it
gets out of hand, they crack down on the party itself,
either by banning it outright or going after the leadership
that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when you start looking at exactly how
they were able to pull this off. You know, I
think one of the reasons that you publish a book
like this is because a lot of people see that
we're in much the same situation that they were. I
have a tendency to combine it a little more with
like the Spanish Civil War, what led up to the
Spanish Civil War. But you know, I can definitely see
parallels here, and I guess what a lot of people
who would read this book is. And I've actually heard
people say this is, you know, in the United States,
the centers of power are the cities. And with this,
with this guy who's been in the country for less
than ten years getting the nomination to the Democrat nomination
for the mayoral candidacy in New York City, people are like, well,
we just can't give up on cities and everything. And
I've actually heard people invoke this book. So, you know,
one of the reasons we want to read history is
we want to learn and see what can be done
to solve situations that people have been in the past
that are similar to ours. I mean, Honestly, when you
when you look at this and you try to apply
it to our situation, how would you even begin.
Speaker 2: I guess that's the million dollar question, right.
Speaker 1: With I fed posting, Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course it's.
Speaker 2: Well, the main difference between our situation and their situation
is that a city like Berlin had been largely taken
over by you know, what you could term alien elements.
They were hostile to German national feeling, hostile to the
aspirations of the German people as a whole, but they
weren't quite as alien as the forces that have taken
over most American cities. That's sort of a whole other
problem because the well, the issue in a place like
New York is persuasion isn't really a tool that can
bring about a serious change there, not in terms of
something like local politics. I mean, is it is essentially
an alien city at this point. Just to keep running
with New York as an example, I think it's probably
the most fitting. So the actual means of sort of
political attack are necessarily different. Be very hard to sort
of plant yourself in New York the same way that
they that the NSDAP planted themselves in Berlin. And sort
of staked out of claim could be done. It's possible
even just to have a presence in the cities would
be better better than having none. So, you know, I'm
not sure how much relevance this would have to the
actual to political activities in the cities today, but obviously
at some point that has to happen. At some point
the cities have to be reclaimed in some sense, and
that's not going to happen without at least some local presence,
without sort of showing the flag. But it is, it's
a very difficult situation that we're in, and I'm not
sure it's it's I'm not sure there's much that we
could do in that respect. Now, I do think that
the same tactics and the same understanding is still applicable
to places of maybe secondary significance. Maybe not your your
New York cities, maybe not your Washington d c's, but
there's one hundred cities scattered all across the United States
that are in dire need of some local action.
Speaker 1: We know that they've been getting a lot of action
from the revolutionary left, because that's usually the way. It's
always the way it starts. It It never seems like
revolutionary right. Revolutionary action from the right is always just
responts things. Revolutionary action from the left sometimes it's sometimes
the people who become the revolutionary right actually come out
of the revolutionary left because they know exactly what's happening,
and then they're like, Okay, well this isn't going to work.
But yeah, just from my reading some older some books
I've read about of a diary from an Austrian woman
throughout World War One and then throughout the hunger the
starvation Blockade, it just seems that once the city, once
the city has taken over, the only way you're going
to take it back is block by block. But also
you have to take it has to be taken into
consideration that the people who are doing that. Also, you
know a lot of them are related to each other,
seventh and eighth cousins, they're a you, they're a specific
there are specific ethnicity, they share something in common. And
I think that's probably, you know, the main reason that
that the nsd AP could do what they did, And
especially in a town like Berlin, you're you can only
use fists and force and violence so much if you're
not going to have cohesiveness when it comes to who
you are and who who you're standing next to you,
You're in a heap of trouble when you know you
have you have diasporas that have come into your country
and now overwhelmed certain areas. I mean Canada is like
I've heard the like the province that Ontario, Ontario, the
province at Toronto's and or the sexuals just been taken
over by Indians. So you know, there was a There's
a lots to take into consideration when you know, when
you can look at Berlin and think, okay, well there's
a whole lot of Bolshevik Jews who just poured over
the border from Russia and other places. As pretty easy to.
Speaker 2: Spot them, and they didn't have nearly the numbers if
we're comparing to today, right between them and I guess
the sizeable group of like white Russian emigres and other
smaller groups. I mean, I don't have the numbers handy,
but it can't have been more than ten percent, right,
I would be shocked if it was even that many.
Berlin was still a German city. It might not have
had the same feeling as the rest of Germany, but
it was still a German city, and that counted for
a lot to them, to a political party whose core
belief is the unity of all Germans as a national whole. Today,
even our smaller cities are as bad as Berlin ever was,
and that's sort of where I think any right wing
revolutionary movement in this country is going to have to start.
And of course, again pointing back to sort of the
backstory of the book and the way they introduced it,
the NSCAP didn't start in Berlin either. They started where
they had more popularity among the masses, down in Bavaria
and expanded from there into the Rhineland and other parts
of Germany. They were smart about it, They had a
good strategy. They adapted their message slightly for different areas.
Of course, everyone's familiar with the the sort of northern
branch of the party that had Gregor Strausser before his
fall from glory as a major ideological voice up there,
adapting to the local conditions in that region. And yeah,
of course Berlin was sort of the last place that
they went. They had at that point experienced leaders, they
had resources that could sustain the party on a national level.
They they didn't just jump right in there and think
it was all going to work out, and of course
it doesn't. Throughout the whole throughout the story of this book, basically,
everything that can go wrong does go wrong, and the
major story arcs that take place are them managing to
figure it out and come back from it every time
until eventually it sticks right. That's sort of the story,
the part of it that is mostly missing in the
common perception of what happens in Germany and this time period.
There are a lot of ups and downs. There are
minor crises that pop up that shake up the political
scene a bit, and it's not really over until that
last minute. There's even the sort of abortive communist uprising
when they realize that the National Socialists are are going
to win unless they do something about it that has
to be put down, sort of a last ditch orgy
of violence to try to stop them. It's really not
over until that last moment where they finally sees power.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you do you guys have or do you
know of a books that like?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Because the book starts out with Goebbel's talking about how
he's in, He's in, We're in Elberfeld, and that that's
basically at that time as a spiritual center of national
socialism in Western Germany. That how you'd build that up,
because that's that's pretty much I think where where we're at.
There's much to be learned from this book, especially just
inspiration and determination. But they, I mean, are we talking
about would the second half of the Austrian Painter's book
be be instructive to that? Or what?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: What's your opinion?
Speaker 2: You know, I've really been looking for something that goes
into this. Of course there's less written about it because
it's sort of the first chapter of their comeback Berlin.
Is this glorious triumph right the end of the story
feeds directly into the seizure of power and the beginning
of the Third Reich. It's been very difficult for me
to locate something that goes into the or at least
it provides a narrative account of the building up of
the party in the Rhineland, in the East, in other
areas outside of Bavaria when they first make that jump
into trying to be a truly national party. So any
listeners out there who have a lead on this, please
let us know.
Speaker 1: There's plenty. There's plenty out there on organization. Like I said,
the Fearers the Fearer's Book, the second half is or
the last part of it is pretty pretty good on organization.
But the yeah, just basically what they what they went
through in the smaller towns where that's where, Yeah, that's
that's where people are going to be more open to
the idea. I mean, these are these are people who
suffered more with the blockades there. A lot of them
suffered violence from hordes, from hordes that poured over the border.
So it's you know, and you would think Berlin, especially
what they went through, that it would be they would
be more open to that kind of message there. But
you also have the competing message of of Bolshevism at
the time, which is also very you know, it can
be very enticing to people who feel like they've been defeated.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Although I do think goggles Gives Well reserves
quite a bit of his disdain for the liberal parties
as well. You know, the communists he sees as of
course dangerous, but they're basically dangerous the way that like
a wild animal is dangerous, right, you know, it's going
to hurt you if you step into its den. He
sort of in those scenarios. He kind of takes the
position of, well, we're prepared to fight them, and we're
going to go and fight them, and we're fairly confident
that we can beat them because their only tool really
is violence, and we know how to deal with violence.
It's the the liberal parties and the sort of the
media machine in Germany. Like I was already talking about
Berlin as sort of the media capital, and these sort
of I don't know how to characterize exactly the bourgeois
type that's really prevailing in Berlin at this time period,
just sort of very caught up in the ever changing
day to day life of the capitol and don't really
don't really care about these sorts of things, the sort
of ones that see themselves as being above it all.
These are the people who sort of give free reign
for the basically liberal dictatorship that exists at this period.
Two just sort of abuse the members of the party
and let the police run wild on them. Of course,
the one character that he really disdains above all others
is the police commissioner, or I believe when it starts
off he's deputy police commissioner, but he's basically in charge
of the sort of political police or the interior police
guy named Bernard Weiss was Jewish and obviously had a serious,
serious grudge against the NSDAP and would basically just harass
them with the with the interior police at every conceivable opportunity.
At this whole feud with him relating to cartoons that
they had made of him, like what's what's the word
satirical cartoons about about Weiss? Uh. He ended up suing
Goebbels for defamation a couple of times and losing. There's
like two whole chapters that revolved just around this feud
with the Jewish police chief. Whereas, Yeah, I think the
communists don't get as much of a of a personal
treatment in this account. It really is there. They are
sort of the NPC goons that are just constantly coming
after them.
Speaker 1: Well, I think one of the more important things that
he does in the book, and I think this is
something that at uh anyone who's looking starting an organization
or doing anything, is he really goes after the struggle,
talking about the struggle, struggle and the sacrifice. So far,
you have to talk about the early struggles and what
you went what you went through. The heroes that came
before you. And also you know, talk about the old
Guard and how you know you're continuing their work, and
you know you use that to seek and inspire, seek
to inspire an honor and give people a sense of
exactly what's you know, what's at stake here.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, it really is the sort of common heroism
of the average party member or essay man that that
kind of shines through here. I do think it really
emphasizes how much of it would have been impossible without
those people. Even at the beginning when he talks about
having to really call these local groups of people who
sort of either want to just be an idle talk
shop or want to do in fighting, or want to
constantly question orders or party directives. That sort of getting
rid of those guys and keeping only the toughest men
who were dedicated, who wanted to fight, who wanted to
sacrifice themselves, how instrumental that was for their eventual victory.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also just the values that you've always shared,
the values of the country, the values well not the country,
but the people, the values the nation. And yeah, I
guess what what the regime that's been in charge since
World War Two is figured out is that the best
way to make sure that that's not an issue is
to either when you start talking about the past, what
your you know, what your your ancestors did you know,
you're not allowed to celebrate that or even brag about
it because you didn't do it. It was them and
they did it. And they're evil anyway because they either
own slaves or they were okay with slavery, they were
alive during slavery, they invented slavery. Whatever the hell these
people want to talk about.
Speaker 2: But right, right, it all has to be made a
subject of deconstruction or critical analysis. Right, it's sort of
heroism can't be allowed to to be a part of
that narrative.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the the Frankfurt school and the authoritarian personality, they
laid that out perfectly. They said, if we allow, if
we allow Americans to rely too much upon their past
and look to their past too much, or brag about
their past, or think that there's anything good in their past,
well that's just going to lead them to fascism. So
we need to make sure that they're looking forward to
whatever progressive kind of worldview that that we're selling. And
I think that a lot of people don't even realize
that they're doing that. You know, whether you're whether you're
a conservative, libertarian, or you know, whatever you want to
call yourself. I think even some people you know, on
the on the right side of the great divide, as
the man would have, you know, talked about it, would
they almost reflexively or they reflectively fall into that, and
then they have to catch themselves and go back to
it and go, no, No, our history, our history is rich.
We did things that no one was ever able to do.
And the reason we did that is because we share
an identity.
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah, you'll see oftentimes, I guess, like conservative types,
even when they think they're taking a stand, they'll say
things like, well, sure they own slaves, and you know,
they genocided the Native Americans, and they did this and
that and all that was bad. But and then they'll
try to sort of rescue that by saying, you know,
they made democracy, or it was better than what everyone
else was doing at the time and they were all worse,
or things of that nature. Stuff that automatically puts you
on the defensive and puts you in the position of
sort of deprecating your own history, your own culture where
you came from and it really is. It's so ingrained
in most people that I think sometimes they do, like
you said, they sort of have to catch themselves when
they start doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the easiest one is that anybody, anybody can
be an American, anybody can be a member of the nation.
And while I you know, my obviously my ancestors came
here later than the founders and everything, but you're always
going to have some that are grafted in. But you know,
really you can look at to a certain point, and
I would say for the overwhelming majority, that point is
probably the fifties going into the sixties and then heart Seller.
Of course, we had an invasion in the eighteen eighties
that you know, we're still trying to get over. But yeah,
just saying that anyone can come here, and especially the
way everything is set up now where there is no
national where the national identity has been trying been written
out of the out of education, out of conversation, out
of the culture, then you're you're searching to get something back.
And that's exactly you know, Greebel's talks about it in
the book, that you when you're looking at the cultural
and moral declay, decay of Berlin. You know, national socialism
was was being pushed as a redemption to what what
once was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it is sort of noteworthy, how uh, how
sort of fectless. The conservatives in Germany at that time
were sort of same kind of position as they take
to us today. Actually, that's That's one of the things
that I've said repeatedly about this book is that the
most relevant part is the sort of diagnosis of conservatism
that's sort of implicit in the actions that they take,
always obsessed with social standing and prestige, which, of course
Goebel's notes that that basically means approval by Jews because
they controlled all the media channels that would make one
prestigious or not, that would determine whether you were socially
acceptable or whether you were a deplorable radical. And this
basically let them lead the Conservatives around by the nose,
and that the Conservatives were at times completely useless in
preventing the sorts of abuses, the abuse of tactics that
were used against the national socialists, and at times the
Conservatives willingly joined in. Of course, especially relevant with the
sort of last effort of staving off a national socialist
government was the was a coalition between the Conservatives, the
Center Party back then currently the CDU and and the Socialists.
They actually teamed up to prevent the National Socialists from
entering government, which, of course, if you look around today,
is nothing new. This is going on in Germany right now.
This has been going on in France for decades, and
if the United States had a multi party system, you
can bet it would be happening here. Yeah. The uh.
Speaker 1: What you said about them just conservatives always one saying
the basically they want to be patted on the head
by whose ever in power, and yeah, we know that's
been for a long time here. Yeah, it just makes them.
It's the the old thing about how they they're always
reaching out to the left and punching to their right
where they they think that they've been so conditioned that
anything that anything from the past where if it looks
like it's to the right of you know, Ronald Reagan,
then it's just then you have people on the right
wing screaming Nazi and Nancy Semi and it's, uh, you know,
it's just one of those things where you just want
to break out the gifts of like Triggly, I just
break out the gifts of triggly Puff and like purple
hair at Sgaw's and say here, here you are, this
is what you are just throwing, just throwing that out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's it's amazing because, of course, in
Germany during this time, it was or should have been
even more apparent or even more absurd to be a
conservative who wasn't a radical, right they had watched the
Social Democratic Party basically tear down the entire foundation of
the German state over the past ten to fifteen years,
depending on exactly what time period you're talking about, you know,
overthrow the Kaiser completely take over the state essentially. I mean,
it was a kudeta, and the Conservatives fifteen years later
are basically defending that system, saying that the National Socialists
are a threat to the realm. They are radical, they
are you know, this and that and the other thing.
They're dangerous basically for sort of belatedly responding to this
totally illegitimate kudreta. And it's really just amazing because if
you look at the United States in the same vein,
of course, we didn't have an event quite as singular
or traumatic as Germany's loss in the Great War and
the subsequent revolution. But when you look at the speed
at which things have changed, right like Donald Trump being
the first, the first president to run on a pro
gay platform, the absolute demographic catastrophe that's been building up,
how rapidly everything is changing. And still you have conservatives
who believe that it is too radical to oppose it
even to a condition, to restore it to a condition
of ten or fifteen or twenty years ago. Right, not
much there's not much daylight in between the German conservatives
of this time period and the American conservatives of today.
Speaker 1: Back then, you could still look at the politician in
Germany and say that they were for Germany. They they want,
even if they were misguided, they want they wanted what
was best for Germany. You can't even say that anymore.
Here You're you're looking at you know what, what just
came over two hours ago? Robert F. Kennedy Junior. I mean,
this is a guy who is supposed to be like
solving health problems. He's taking pictures with people holding up
signs of hostages in Gaza. Where this isn't to call
this a country. To call this well, you can call
it a country, you can't call it a nation. It's
just not a nation. A nation is a people, and
people a nation has leaders who care about the care
about the country. People can say whatever they want about
about like John F. Kennedy and John F. Kennedy you know,
looks like a you know, like a hardcore right winger.
Now because he actually loved America. I mean, the guy
loved women too, don't get me wrong, but the guy,
the guy loved America and that right. Yeah, I mean
I'm not head, but but the you know, we don't
even have It's very easy to get black pilled if
you're if you think that in any way, shape or form,
like national politics is going to fix this. And it,
like like we were talking about, this has to start
in This has to start in one location, and it
needs to spread, and it needs to spread like wildfire.
You know, you need your you need your alber Elberfelds
to pop up all over the place, and then you
can start thinking about, Okay, where do we you know,
where do we go from here?
Speaker 2: M yeah, yeah, of course, just purely. The difference in
like the way that the electoral system works does mean
that there has to be tactical differences, but the core
proposition of you sort of need to control space, right,
you need to control territory, you need loyalty, you need people.
That's what's necessary to accomplish anything. You know, the talk
shop doesn't accomplish this stuff by itself.
Speaker 1: A lot of things, a lot of narratives can be
spun up, some things I think we can actually look
at and agree can be done on like social media.
But when it comes down to it, it's it's that's
not where it's going to happen. You're just going to
have to get off social media and you're gonna have
to make things happen in real life. As dangerous as
that is, you know, you're just you know, I mean,
you're just going to basically have to decide you're a
partisan and this is this is who you are now.
And you know, if you really want to see real
change in your life, it's probably going to cost you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's certainly true. Even just to do what
we've done at at anal Uphill has involved, you know,
personal costs, sacrifices that have had to be made, negative
consequences that have that have happened from that, and and
all we do is publish books to really to really
accomplish anything even even bordering on what the National Socialists
were able to do, and in Germany in the twenties,
that's a whole other can of worms. It is going
to take it extremely dedicated, smart, brave people too to
even begin to arrive at any kind of political solution
until that point. Look what we're stuck with, right We
have guys like Trump and and JD. Vance and these
these other types that are sure. I mean, you can
you can rightly say that they're an improvement over previous
iterations in several respects, but they're not even close to
to what would be necessary to bring a political revolution
to the United States. And that's what's required, is a
political revolution. Obviously, I don't mean by that a a
violent revolution of the kind that some people salivate over,
but it's it is worth noting that even a peaceful
revolution like the one that the National Socialist led, that
is one that is primarily obtained through peaceful political means,
there was a lot of violence that was necessary even
to just defend themselves as they were trying to carry
out that that political revolution.
Speaker 1: Yeah, strategy is really important, knowing exactly what you can
get away with and you know. And also yeah, and
I've said this for for a long time, you just
have to do it legitimately. You know. The one good
thing about about America and about a lot of the local,
uh local polities, is it's easy to get elected and
you can you run the right guy. You can get
sheriffs elected, you can get mayors elected, you can get
school boards elected. There's a lot you can do. And
we that's the way it needs to be done in
the United States. That's the way people want to see
it done. You know, I was saying all throughout COVID
was you know when people are like, well, you know,
if they have mass vaccinations or something like that the
government was going to do. Now thankfully they didn't try that.
Then you know, your your local sheriff, you know, deputizing
everyone in the town and lining up on the you know,
on the county line and saying, you know, telling them
you can't come here. You know, that is that is
something that people will see, even even when the propaganda
machine goes into spin, that is something that that regular
people will see as legitimate over you know, putting together
a posse to stop them. And it's possible to do
in the United States.
Speaker 2: So absolutely, and it's you know, that kind of thing
might fall under the general banner of like civil disobedience,
but that's the type that actually works, whereas the useless
type of civil disobedience is just going out as some
guy and you know, doing what liberals do, which is
wave signs on the side of the road and that
sort of thing that affects nothing. When it's like you said,
like a local sheriff or something like that, or a
local elected official of some type who's refusing to comply,
then suddenly it's news. It's a crisis, it's something for
people to get stirred up over and take sides. And
as Goebel's kind of kind of talks about, that's really
the prerequisite. You have to be noticed first before anything
can happen. You have to get people activated or what
was the word he used, provocation. Provocation has to take place,
and it's a lot easier to do that when you're
not a nobody and all. Echo what you said about
just the importance of that, and also that it's not
really as hard as people tend to make it out
to be. And I know several examples off the top
of my head of times when people on our side
of things have actually taken this to heart and have
taken local political action that has been effective, that it
has resulted in people either winning elections or defeating local initiatives,
getting on school boards, that sort of thing. It does happen.
And if people can get organized enough around that sort
of concept and dedicate enough of their time and money
and intelligence and bravery, more of that can happen and
needs happen.
Speaker 1: Saying it, been saying it for you know a number
of years. Now, That's that's the way things needs to
be done. So all right, let's uh, let's cut it
right there. Tell people about Analope Hill. Uh about you know,
some of the latest releases and everything, and uh, I'll
give my my discount codes so people can go there
and check it out.
Speaker 2: All right. Well, yeah, for those of you out there
who may not deferd of us before, Analop Hill publishes
historical literature, uh oftentimes new translations into English that have
never been done before, or reprints of particularly significant works.
We also publish original fiction, which has been a growing
part of our catalog by current right wing authors, so
you might find interesting. Our website is Analop Hill publishing
dot com and if you head over there, you can
check out our catalog. We put out a lot of books,
typically two books every month, so there's something for just
about everyone in that catalog. And I highly encourage you
if you enjoy Pete's show, you'll definitely enjoy some of
the things you can find there.
Speaker 1: And use code Pete que get five percent off your orders.
And usually you're going to order a large amount at once,
so that the five percent will definitely definitely help. So Kurt,
I appreciate it. Thank you very much, thanks for the talk.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me. This has been great.
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