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Speaker 1: All right, So imagine this. You walk into your house

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and there's a message on your computer. Okay, but it

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was left while you were out, and the person claims

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to live in the same house. Uh huh but centuries ago.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like a ghost story, right yeah, bef, but

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this actually happened, really yeah. This is the story of

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Ken Webster over in Doddleston, England, and it's just the

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beginning of a truly wild series of events.

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Speaker 2: I'm intrigued.

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Speaker 1: So for today's deep dive, we are going to try

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to get to the bottom of the Doddleston messages.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 1: This is a really strange case of alleged communication with

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the past.

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Speaker 2: Like how far in the past.

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Speaker 1: We're talking fifteen forty one?

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Speaker 2: Wow?

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Speaker 1: And get this also the future?

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Speaker 2: No way, what year twenty one to oh nine? Okay,

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now I'm really interested.

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Speaker 1: All this through a home computer in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 2: That's crazy, I know, right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So to guide us through this, we're going to be

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primarily relying on Ken Webster's book The Vertical Plane, which

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lays out the whole story in detail.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha.

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Speaker 1: We'll also be drawing on a fascinating YouTube docum Memory

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from the Wi Files.

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Speaker 2: Cool, I've seen some of their stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they do good work. So this documentary it features

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excerpts from the book and some really interesting interviews.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like a good starting point.

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Speaker 1: It is. So to set the scene, picture this December

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nineteen eighty four, okay, Ken Webster, a teacher moves into

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this place called Meadow Cottage and Duddleston with his friend

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Nick right and his girlfriend Debbie. Okay, And almost immediately

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strange things start happening, like what, well, first they start

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finding these weird footprints on the walls footprints, Yeah, and

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get this on the ceilings too. That's odd, it's super weird.

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So they would paint over them, thinking it was just

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you know, some mark or something, but then they would

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reappear the next day, like right on top of the

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fresh paint.

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Speaker 2: That is so strange, I know.

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Speaker 1: And the footprints had six toes.

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Speaker 2: Six toes.

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Speaker 1: That's even weirder, Yeah, like why six toes? It's like

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a calling card or something.

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Speaker 2: Does make you wonder if someone's messing with.

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Speaker 1: Them, right, like who has six toes? And that's not

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all what else? They would also find these huge towers

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of stuff just randomly stacked up towers of what you know,

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everyday things, bottles, cans, boxes, like, all stacked up precariously,

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sometimes like four feet high.

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Speaker 2: Whack.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy. At first they thought it was their

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friends playing pranks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd think that too.

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Speaker 1: But nobody ever fessed up to it.

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Speaker 2: Mmm. That's creepy.

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Speaker 1: It is. It's like living in a haunted house, right, definitely.

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So all this weird stuff is going on. And then

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one night, after a trip to the pub, they see

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this green light. A green light, yeah, coming from their

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cottage windows.

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Speaker 2: That's eerie it was.

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Speaker 1: When they went inside they realized the light was coming

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from their computer. Their computer, Yeah, a BBC computer okay.

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And remember this is before the Internet and all.

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Speaker 2: That, right, like way before Wi.

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Speaker 1: Fi and stuff exactly, So they're like, what's going on.

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Speaker 2: I'd be freaked out.

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Speaker 1: They go to the computer and there's a new file saved,

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a new file. Yeah, it was named r eate.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's weird, I know, right.

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Speaker 1: So they open it and the message inside is just bizarre.

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It said, what strange words thou speak?

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Speaker 2: WHOA hold on? That's not normal English.

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Speaker 1: Right, It's like old English or something.

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Speaker 2: It does sound kind of shakesperience.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So the message goes on to talk about devil lights,

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which they think means the computer itself.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it mentions costly things, and there's even this

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line that says I will have these costly things within

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mine house by and by.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of threatening.

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Speaker 1: It is a little bit right, and it was signed

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just LW l W.

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Speaker 2: Huh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So Ken shows this message to Peter Trinder, a

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literature teacher at his school, and Peter immediately recognized the

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old English phrasing.

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Speaker 2: He must have been pretty knowledgeable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he was really into languages and history. So he

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asked Ken to let him know if any more message.

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Speaker 2: Is popped up. Smart.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he wanted to try and figure out what time

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period and where it was coming from.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense.

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Speaker 1: So for a few days nothing happens, no new messages.

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But then Ken starts thinking, you know what if this

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is a two.

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Speaker 2: Way thing, Oh, like, maybe he could reply exactly.

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Speaker 1: So, even though he still thinks it's probably a prank,

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he decides to try and communicate back.

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Speaker 2: What did he do?

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Speaker 1: Well, he sits down at the computer and starts typing

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a message.

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Speaker 2: What did he ask?

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Speaker 1: He asked a bunch of questions like, did you live

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on this land around sixteen twenty? Who is Edmund Gray?

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Do you have a family? Is the king James or Charles?

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What was this village called in your time?

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Speaker 2: So he's trying to get some concrete information exactly.

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Speaker 1: He's trying to see if this LW person is for real. Mark.

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So they save the message, leave the computer on and

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head back to the pub. And when they come back

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a few hours later, what do you know, there's a reply,

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a new message is waiting for them the way. Yeah.

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So this reply mentions an honest farm of oak and stone,

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and it says that Edmund Gray, brother of John Gray,

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lives at Kington.

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Speaker 2: Hall, Kington Hall.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then it gets really interesting. It says the

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king is Henry the eighth, Henry eighth, okay, who it

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claims is six and forty years old, six and forty

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so forty six, Yeah, And it says the year is

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fifteen twenty one.

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Speaker 2: Fifteen twenty one.

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Speaker 1: Mmmm, that doesn't sound quite right.

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Speaker 2: You're catching on. It's not fifteen twenty one. Henry the

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eighth was only thirty years old, not forty six.

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Speaker 1: Ah, So right off the bat, there's a problem exactly. Plus,

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Canton Hall the way it's described didn't exist back then, So.

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Speaker 2: This LW person doesn't seem to have their facts straight.

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Speaker 1: Right, it's starting to look like a hoax.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe someone's messing.

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Speaker 1: With them, that's what they're thinking. Or someone's breaking into

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their house and using their computer, which is kind of creepy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not good either way.

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Speaker 1: So Peter Trinder, the literature teacher, points out some other

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weird things about the message. The grammar and punctuation are

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too modern for the sixteenth century. Oh like what like

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using question mark?

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Speaker 2: Right? Those weren't really a thing back.

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Speaker 1: Then, exactly. So Ken decides to take the computer home

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for the weekend, okay, just to see if any more

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messages show up in a different location.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, guess what more messages?

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Speaker 1: Yep, they keep coming. This time they start getting more

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detailed descriptions of the house, the village, and the time period.

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And now the messages are signed with a full name.

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Speaker 2: What name, Lucas Wayneman, Lucas Wayneman.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so these messages from Lucas start to paint

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a picture of his life. What kind of picture?

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Speaker 2: Well, he talks about losing his wife and son to

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the plague. Oh, that's awful, It is really sad. He

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also describes his everyday life, you know, farming, barley for ale,

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making cheese, okay, And he talks about his house, which

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he says is made of red stone.

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Speaker 1: Red stone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then it's on this nice piece of land.

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Speaker 1: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: Now Meadow cottage itself wasn't made of red stone, but

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later on, when they were doing some renovations, they found

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the remains of an older structure under the cottage. Really yeah,

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and it was made of red sandstone.

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Speaker 1: WHOA, that's a pretty big coincidence, it is.

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Speaker 2: Right, It's like maybe Lucas was describing the original house

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on that spot.

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Speaker 1: That would be pretty wild, it would.

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Speaker 2: So the tone of the messages also starts to change.

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How so, Lucas starts to express confusion and even worry.

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Speaker 1: He's not sure what's going on exactly.

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Speaker 2: He sees Ken and his friends as intruders.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense he's from a different.

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Speaker 2: Time, right. Meanwhile, Peter Trinder is still analyzing the language.

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Speaker 1: What's he thinking. He's convinced that it points to the

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mid sixteenth century, specifically the Cheshire.

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Speaker 2: Region, which is where Duddleston is exactly.

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Speaker 1: And as the messages go on, the historical details get

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more accurate. Really Yeah. For example, Lucas mentions Henry the

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Eighth being married to Catherine Parr, which puts him squarely

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in the fifteen forties.

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Speaker 2: So he's getting closer to the right time period he is.

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Speaker 1: But there are still some inconsistencies, like what well he

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mentioned some names that can't be verified historically, like who

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a guy named Richard Wischel, for example. But when you

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think about it, a farmer in the sixteenth century wouldn't

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necessarily know about every historical figure that's true. His world

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would be much smaller exactly. So at this point Ken

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decides to tell Lucas the truth, the truth about what

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that he's communicating from the year nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 2: Wow, I wonder what Lucas thought of that.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll get to that, But first things take an

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even stranger turn. What happens a new presence enters the chat.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean?

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Speaker 1: Messages start appearing from someone claiming to be from the

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year twenty.

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Speaker 2: One nine, twenty one nine? Are you serious?

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Speaker 1: Dead serious? This new entity just calls themselves twenty one

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oh nine.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's just mind blowing.

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Speaker 1: It is so twenty one oh nine tells Ken and

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his friends that they have an important role to play

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in history.

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Speaker 2: An important role.

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Speaker 1: How they don't really say. It's all very cryptic, like

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vague warnings about not interfering with the past.

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Speaker 2: That's creepy, it is.

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Speaker 1: And at the same time, all the weird stuff in

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the house starts happening more often, like what kind of stuff, footsteps,

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cold spots, things being stacked up, tapping noises, words written

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in chalk on the walls. Even Lucas's name shows up

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written in chalk.

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Speaker 2: WHOA, that's intense, it was.

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Speaker 1: It really starts to feel like a classic haunted house.

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Speaker 2: So you've got communication from the past and the future

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and poltergeist activity all happening at the same time.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. It's like Meadow Cottage is some kind of time vortex.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the one way to put it.

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Speaker 1: Debbie is understandably freaked out by all this, I can imagine.

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So she starts doing some research and she discovers that

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Meadow Cottage sits on a lee line.

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Speaker 2: A lee line.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, some people believe there are these alignments of places

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with special energy. Okay, interesting, And after this Debbie starts

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having visions and dreams about Lucas.

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Speaker 2: Like he's trying to reach out to her directly.

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Speaker 1: That's what it seems like. So at this point Ken

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and Debbie decide they need some outside help.

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Speaker 2: They need someone to tell them that they're going crazy

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pretty much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So they contact the Society for Psychical Research the SPR.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I've heard of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're a group that investigates paranormal stuff.

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Speaker 2: Makes sense.

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Speaker 1: So the SPR sends two investigators, David Welch and John.

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Speaker 2: Bucknell to Meadow Cottage.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Their goal is to figure out what's going on.

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They come up with a test for twenty one oh nine.

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Speaker 2: What kind of test?

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Speaker 1: They have ten questions that they type into the computer

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and then delete right away.

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Speaker 2: So kenon Debbie don't know what the questions are exactly.

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Speaker 1: Then they wait to see if twenty one oh nine answers.

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Speaker 2: Okay, what happens?

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Speaker 1: A few days later, a new message appears from twenty

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one or nine. It doesn't answer the questions directly, but

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it does acknowledge that an experiment took place. Interesting, and

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get this, it mentions one of the investigators by name. Yeah,

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like twenty one oh nine knew they were there. That's creepy,

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it is, right, So the SPR investigators try to explain

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this away. They say, maybe they were hidden microphones in

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the house, even.

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Speaker 2: Though they claim they spoke quietly, right.

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Speaker 1: Or they speculate that a sensitive microphone could have picked

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up the sounds of the keys being pressed.

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Speaker 2: But that seems like a stretch.

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Speaker 1: It does. They're reaching for an explanation.

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Speaker 2: They don't want to believe it.

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Speaker 1: I think that's part. So the SPR investigation ends with

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no real answers. Okay, But then another weird thing happens.

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Speaker 2: What's that?

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Speaker 1: Frank Davis, a teacher friend of Ken's, visits Meadow Cottage, Okay,

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and when he walks into the study where the computer is,

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he says, the temperature.

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Speaker 2: Suddenly drops like a cold spot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it lasts a few minutes and then goes back

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to normal.

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Speaker 2: That's weird, it is.

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Speaker 1: And shortly after this, a new message.

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Speaker 2: Appears on the computer from Lucas.

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Speaker 1: Nope, this one's different. It's from someone named John who

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says he's a friend of Lucas. John okay, and John

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says that Lucas has been imprisoned by the local sheriff.

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Speaker 2: Imprisoned why for witchcraft? Witchcraft seriously?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, apparently because he was talking to spirits.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, so they really took that stuff seriously.

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Speaker 1: Back then, they did. And this explains why there haven't

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been any messages from Lucas lately.

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Speaker 2: Right, he's locked up exactly.

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Speaker 1: So Canon Debbie are worried about Lucas.

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Speaker 2: Of course.

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Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Peter Trender is still working on the messages.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what's he up to? Well?

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Speaker 1: Remember how Lucas mentioned attending Bracenow's College and Ox and

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he gave Ken a list of books that he said

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were from his time, like as a proof or something. Okay,

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So Peter gets in touch with a librarian at Bryce

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Nose okay, and he asks about the books on Lucas's list. Right,

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the librarian confirms that every single book is in their collection.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

296
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Speaker 1: And get this, they were all published in the fifteen twenties.

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Speaker 2: No way, that's too specific to be a coincidence.

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Speaker 1: Right, It's like Lucas really was telling the truth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is getting hard to explain away it is.

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Speaker 1: So Ken and Debbie decide they have to do something

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to help Lucas.

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Speaker 2: What do they do?

303
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Speaker 1: They send a message to the sheriff demanding his release

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bold movie. It was the even hint that they have

305
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some kind of power they can use like a threat kinda,

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and it works.

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Speaker 2: Lucas is released.

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Speaker 1: Yep, he started communicating again.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing it is.

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Speaker 1: So Ken asks him about all the weird stuff happening

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in the house.

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Speaker 2: The poltergeist activity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and Lucas says it's not him. But then he

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says he's been experiencing similar things in his own time.

315
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Speaker 2: So both of them are getting haunted.

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Speaker 1: Pretty much, and they both start to think that twenty

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one oh nine is behind it.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting. So that future entity is messing with

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both of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not sure why, but they don't trust twenty

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one on nine.

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Speaker 2: I don't blame them.

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Speaker 1: So Lucas asks Ken to move the computer to the kitchen.

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Speaker 2: Why.

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Speaker 1: He thinks it'll give him more privacy.

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Speaker 2: Privacy from twenty one oh nine exactly.

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Speaker 1: Apparently twenty one oh nine had warned them both about

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sharing too much personal information.

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Speaker 2: But they're not listening.

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Speaker 1: They're starting to rebel a little bit.

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Speaker 2: I can understand why.

332
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Speaker 1: Then Lucas makes this really strange request.

333
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Speaker 2: What is it?

334
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Speaker 1: He asks Ken to leave a piece of paper and

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a pen next to the computer.

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Speaker 2: Paper and pen what four?

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Speaker 1: Nobody knows. Ken's confused, but he does it anyway, okay.

338
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And then what the next morning he finds a handwritten note. Whoa, yeah,

339
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it's written in this old fashion style, and it's signed Thomas.

340
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Speaker 2: Early, Thomas Early.

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Speaker 1: And this note contains clues that lead to Lucas's real identity.

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Speaker 2: His real identity. So Lucas Waynman wasn't his real name.

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Speaker 1: He had been using a fake name, remember, because he

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was afraid of being accused of witchcraft, right, which he

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actually happened exactly. So the note says, you have my

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name in your book. It is also the name of

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Peter's house.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's cryptic it is.

349
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Speaker 1: But Peter, the literature teacher, lived in a town called

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Harwooden Arwood, and that was also where they both taught. Okay,

351
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So using this clue, they figured out that Thomas Early

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was actually.

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Speaker 2: Thomas Harwarden, Thomas Hargarden. And guess what, he was a

354
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fellow at Braise Nose.

355
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Speaker 1: You got it. He was there in the fifteen thirties.

356
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Speaker 2: So Lucas Wayneman was really Thomas Harwarden all along.

357
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Speaker 1: That's what it seems like wow, And this discovery seems

358
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to set off twenty one oh nine What do you mean?

359
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A few days later, Ken finds the computer in the bathroom.

360
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Speaker 2: It moved itself, that's what it looks like.

361
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Speaker 1: Then he finds a message written in chalk on the floor.

362
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Speaker 2: What does it say?

363
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Speaker 1: It says, one more chance measure frequency by plus two energy?

364
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,200
What else other than sound in life?

365
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Speaker 2: That's a mouthful, it is.

366
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Speaker 1: It's very cryptic. Then another chalk message appears, and this

367
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one expresses concern that Lucas's real name has been revealed.

368
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Speaker 2: So twenty one oh nine is not happy.

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Speaker 1: Apparently not. And it turns out that twenty one oh

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nine had been messing with the earlier messages really yeah,

371
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like changing them to hide Thomas's true identity.

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Speaker 2: That would explain some of the inconsistencies exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's like twenty one oh nine is trying to control

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the information flow.

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Speaker 2: That's unsettling, it is.

376
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Speaker 1: And around this time, the spr disappears from the picture completely.

377
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Speaker 2: What do you mean?

378
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,600
Speaker 1: They go public with their skepticism, basically saying that Ken

379
00:15:36,639 --> 00:15:39,440
and Debbie are probably faking it. Oh wow, Yeah, And

380
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,399
when Ken tries to get the records of their investigation.

381
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They tell him there's no record of any such case.

382
00:15:45,559 --> 00:15:49,519
What and that the investigator, John Bucknell has vanished. Yeah,

383
00:15:49,559 --> 00:15:51,879
and they say there's never been anyone named David Welch

384
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associated with the spr.

385
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Speaker 2: So it's like they're trying to erase the whole thing exactly.

386
00:15:56,799 --> 00:15:58,080
Speaker 1: It's very strange, like they.

387
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Speaker 2: Saw something they couldn't explain and just shed it all.

388
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,440
Speaker 1: Maybe. But then two on nine gets in touch with

389
00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:06,720
Ken again really yeah, and they give him the name

390
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,360
a number of a UFO researcher. Okay, a guy named

391
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,960
Gary Rowe, Gary Row, And two to one on nine

392
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,720
says Gary might be able to help them.

393
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:14,960
Speaker 2: Okay, So what happens?

394
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,080
Speaker 1: Gary skeptical at first, but he agrees to visit Meadow Cottage.

395
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He brings some equipment with him and starts communicating directly

396
00:16:23,159 --> 00:16:26,360
with twenty one on nine, directly how he'll write questions

397
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,039
on pieces of paper, seal them in envelopes and leave

398
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,440
them by the computer. Okay, and then twenty one on

399
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,960
nine responds with printed messages, also sealed in on Blois.

400
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,840
That's wild, it is, and Ken and Debbie aren't allowed

401
00:16:37,879 --> 00:16:38,480
to see any of it.

402
00:16:38,679 --> 00:16:40,679
Speaker 2: Wow. So this is all very hush hush, yeah.

403
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,200
Speaker 1: But after a while Gary starts getting really secretive.

404
00:16:43,559 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 2: What do you mean?

405
00:16:44,159 --> 00:16:46,879
Speaker 1: He stops telling Ken and Debbie what's going on. He

406
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,759
even apologizes to them, saying that something twenty one oh

407
00:16:49,919 --> 00:16:53,279
nine told him has made him realize how important all

408
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:53,679
this is.

409
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:55,960
Speaker 2: Oh so it's serious business apparently.

410
00:16:56,559 --> 00:16:59,240
Speaker 1: And then Gary just leaves and never contacts them again.

411
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,399
What why he doesn't say, but it seems like twenty

412
00:17:02,399 --> 00:17:04,240
one on nine told him to go away, like.

413
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:05,720
Speaker 2: They were getting too close to something.

414
00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:10,400
Speaker 1: Maybe so. Meanwhile, Ken is still talking to Thomas, you know,

415
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,079
the guy formerly known as Lucas, Right, and Thomas tells

416
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:15,440
his side of the story about how the communication started

417
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:15,839
for him.

418
00:17:16,039 --> 00:17:16,599
Speaker 2: Was he saying?

419
00:17:16,759 --> 00:17:19,160
Speaker 1: Well? He says he saw these glowing lights coming from

420
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,240
his fireplace, okay, and then a man stepped out of

421
00:17:22,279 --> 00:17:26,119
the flames. What Yeah, I know it sounds crazy, but

422
00:17:26,279 --> 00:17:29,079
Thomas says the man told him not to be afraid, okay,

423
00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:29,920
and then the man.

424
00:17:29,759 --> 00:17:31,880
Speaker 2: Disappeared, and then the computer appeared.

425
00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,680
Speaker 1: Not exactly, Thomas says he found a light box in

426
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,400
his kitchen, a light box, yeah, And when he talked

427
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,720
to this box, his words would show up on a

428
00:17:39,759 --> 00:17:41,720
screen in glowing green letters.

429
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:43,680
Speaker 2: He's describing a computer exactly.

430
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty amazing when you think about it.

431
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:47,400
Speaker 2: It is, So what happens next?

432
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,839
Speaker 1: On March twenty third, nineteen eighty five, Thomas sends his

433
00:17:50,839 --> 00:17:53,920
final message. Oh no, why. He says he has to

434
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,319
leave Doddleston because the villagers are getting suspicious of him, right,

435
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,400
they probably think he's a witch exactly. But in his

436
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,119
final message he expresses hope for the future. It's nice,

437
00:18:04,319 --> 00:18:06,519
it is. He even says he wants to meet Ken

438
00:18:06,519 --> 00:18:07,960
and Peter in Oxford one day.

439
00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:08,480
Speaker 2: Wow.

440
00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:10,319
Speaker 1: And he mentions that he's going to write a book

441
00:18:10,319 --> 00:18:10,880
in Latin.

442
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:12,119
Speaker 2: A book in Latin.

443
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,559
Speaker 1: Mm. Yeah, it's a really touching farewell.

444
00:18:14,599 --> 00:18:17,039
Speaker 2: What about twenty one oh nine, there's.

445
00:18:16,839 --> 00:18:18,680
Speaker 1: One last message from them?

446
00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:19,519
Speaker 2: What do they say?

447
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,839
Speaker 1: They confirm that Thomas did write his book okay, and

448
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,200
that he hid it somewhere interesting and they say it

449
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:26,799
will be found eventually.

450
00:18:26,519 --> 00:18:28,559
Speaker 2: So they know the future apparently.

451
00:18:28,519 --> 00:18:30,400
Speaker 1: And that's it. The communication just stops.

452
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,079
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a lot to process.

453
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:37,039
Speaker 1: It is. Over three hundred messages were exchanged between Lucas

454
00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:38,640
twenty one oh nine and Ken.

455
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:40,799
Speaker 2: Three hundred messages. That's the credible.

456
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,799
Speaker 1: It is, And a few years later, Ken writes his

457
00:18:42,839 --> 00:18:45,599
book The Vertical Plane, laying out the whole story. Okay,

458
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,000
and then in nineteen ninety six there's a BBC documentary

459
00:18:49,039 --> 00:18:49,720
about the case.

460
00:18:50,319 --> 00:18:50,880
Speaker 2: Interesting.

461
00:18:51,279 --> 00:18:54,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kennan Debby appear in it anonymously, but they insist

462
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that everything they've said is true.

463
00:18:55,799 --> 00:18:57,039
Speaker 2: So they're sticking to their story.

464
00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 1: They are, and Debbie has even continued to talk about

465
00:18:59,759 --> 00:19:01,160
it on line in recent years.

466
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,000
Speaker 2: Wow, she's still convinced.

467
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,839
Speaker 1: She is. But of course a lot of people are skeptical.

468
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can imagine. It's a wild story.

469
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,160
Speaker 1: It is. So let's look at some of the evidence,

470
00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:15,640
both for and against the authenticity of the messages.

471
00:19:16,039 --> 00:19:16,880
Speaker 2: Okay, good idea.

472
00:19:17,039 --> 00:19:19,279
Speaker 1: So on the side of it being real, you have

473
00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,279
Peter Trinder, the literature teacher. He was adamant that the

474
00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,240
old English in Lucas's messages was genuine.

475
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 2: Like it would be really hard to fake.

476
00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,599
Speaker 1: Exactly, he said, it would take a real expert to

477
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,839
write like that consistently over so many messages.

478
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:35,880
Speaker 2: That's a good point.

479
00:19:36,079 --> 00:19:38,920
Speaker 1: And then there are the historical details that Lucas got right,

480
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,839
like what well like I said, he correctly mentioned Henry

481
00:19:43,839 --> 00:19:45,880
the eighth being married to Catherine Parr.

482
00:19:46,039 --> 00:19:46,200
Speaker 2: Right.

483
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,720
Speaker 1: And then there's the confirmation from the librarian at Brazens.

484
00:19:49,279 --> 00:19:49,960
Speaker 2: About the books.

485
00:19:50,079 --> 00:19:52,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a big one. It's hard to imagine someone

486
00:19:52,319 --> 00:19:54,200
making that up. It would take a lot of research,

487
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:55,880
a lot of very specific research.

488
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 2: What about the arguments against it being real.

489
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,359
Speaker 1: Well, there's a linguistic analysis by doctor Laura Wright. Yeah,

490
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,319
and she found some inconsistencies in the verb conjugations in

491
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,680
Lucas's messages, like grammatical errors basically, and she says that

492
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,160
wouldn't be typical of a sixteenth century writer.

493
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 2: Hmmm. So maybe Lucas wasn't as fluent in Old English

494
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:15,880
as he claimed.

495
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,880
Speaker 1: That's one possibility. Then there's the software analysis that.

496
00:20:19,839 --> 00:20:21,200
Speaker 2: Was done on the writing style.

497
00:20:21,319 --> 00:20:25,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it showed similarities between Ken's writing and Lucas's.

498
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,640
Speaker 2: Oh so maybe Ken wrote the messages himself.

499
00:20:27,799 --> 00:20:30,839
Speaker 1: That's what some people think. But Ken disputed that analysis.

500
00:20:31,599 --> 00:20:33,400
He said the sample size was too small and that

501
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,279
there were cherry picking examples. Okay, and then you have

502
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,559
Ken and Debbie's roommate who claims they never saw any

503
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,519
of the weird stuff happening in the house.

504
00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:42,920
Speaker 2: That's a bit suspicious.

505
00:20:43,319 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 1: It is, And there was also a rumor that someone

506
00:20:45,759 --> 00:20:48,599
else was researching the same rare books at Oxford around the.

507
00:20:48,599 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 2: Same time, So maybe the librarian's confirmation wasn't as unique.

508
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 1: As it seemed, right, It could be a coincidence.

509
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,200
Speaker 2: So there are definitely valid points on both sides.

510
00:20:57,279 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: There are, So we're left with this really intriguing mystery.

511
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,119
Speaker 2: The Dondalston messages are either a genuine case of communication

512
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,319
across time or a very elaborate hoax, and we may

513
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:09,039
never know for.

514
00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 1: Sure, that's the thing. So what do you think?

515
00:21:12,519 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 2: Honestly, I'm not sure. I'm leaning towards hoax, but there

516
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,559
are some things that are hard to explain.

517
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,039
Speaker 1: I agree, there are definitely some loose ends.

518
00:21:21,319 --> 00:21:23,519
Speaker 2: What about those predictions from twenty one oh nine.

519
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,119
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention those.

520
00:21:25,279 --> 00:21:28,759
Speaker 2: You said, twenty one oh nine predicted Fermat's last theorem

521
00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:29,400
being solved.

522
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they gave the coordinates for an undiscovered.

523
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,599
Speaker 2: Quasar and those turned out to be accurate.

524
00:21:34,759 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 1: Yep. Pretty crazy, right it is?

525
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,599
Speaker 2: And what about Gary Rowe, the UFO researcher, Well.

526
00:21:40,319 --> 00:21:44,680
Speaker 1: He reportedly continued to believe in the messages until his death. Really, yeah,

527
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,440
he said his experience at Metal Cottage changed his whole worldview.

528
00:21:49,039 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 2: Hmm, that's interesting.

529
00:21:50,599 --> 00:21:52,839
Speaker 1: And you also have to consider that Ken and Debbie

530
00:21:52,839 --> 00:21:54,720
never tried to profit from their story, right.

531
00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 2: They stayed anonymous and didn't do a big media.

532
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,279
Speaker 1: Tour exactly, so it's not like they were in it

533
00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:01,000
for the money or Okay.

534
00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 2: So maybe they were telling the truth.

535
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:02,880
Speaker 1: It's possible.

536
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,279
Speaker 2: But then how do you explain all the inconsistencies.

537
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe there's a rational explanation for everything, maybe,

538
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,279
or maybe we just don't understand the nature of time

539
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,079
and reality as well as we think we do. That's

540
00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:16,279
a scary thought, it is, but it is also kind

541
00:22:16,279 --> 00:22:17,400
of exciting, I guess.

542
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 2: So.

543
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,279
Speaker 1: So there you have it, the Doddleston Messages, a story

544
00:22:21,319 --> 00:22:26,720
of impossible communication, historical mysteries, and questions that may never

545
00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:27,480
be answered.

546
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 2: It definitely makes you think, it does.

547
00:22:30,599 --> 00:22:32,519
Speaker 1: What do you think our listeners should take away from

548
00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:32,799
all this?

549
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 2: Hmmm? I think it's important to keep an open mind. Okay,

550
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,839
there may be things in this universe that we just

551
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,559
don't understand yet, right.

552
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,279
Speaker 1: And maybe someday we'll have the answers maybe, but for now,

553
00:22:45,319 --> 00:22:47,839
the mystery remains it does, and we want to hear

554
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,160
from you. What do you think about the Doddleston messages?

555
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, head over to our website and let us know.

556
00:22:53,079 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: Do you believe in the possibility of communication across time?

557
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,359
Speaker 2: Is it a hoax or something more.

558
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,759
Speaker 1: Were eager to hear your thoughts and theories, and.

559
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,559
Speaker 2: Who knows, maybe one of you will be the one

560
00:23:04,599 --> 00:23:06,359
to finally crack this case wide open.

561
00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:10,759
Speaker 1: Until then, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep an open mind.

562
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 2: And we'll see you on our next deep dive.

563
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:13,759
Speaker 1: Bye for now,