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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the show on Martin willishure Hopes

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and that intro, I just have to explain a couple

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of times that that was basically an AI video of

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myself in the hot tub in Carmel Valley back in

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two thousand and six when I had my UFO sighting,

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and not too far away from where our guest is from.

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I'm going to be bringing him in just a minute.

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And his name is Lenn Philipooh, and he had a

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documentary made about his sighting. We're going to be talking

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about that and we're going to be showing it at

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the end of the show. But it's a very short

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it's a short clip, but it's really interesting. Just a

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couple of things. So last Thursday, as I mentioned, and

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that I was giving away some T shirts for Christmas.

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And by the way, to all those who celebrate Christmas,

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it's coming up in a couple of days. There is

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no Christmas show Thursday lands on the twenty fifth, and

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there will be no Christmas show and no New Year's

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Day show. But anyway, I want to thank all of

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the listeners that have been watching me and all these

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people that have been you know, like dedicated fans and

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listeners for years. Thank you so much for being here

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all this time. And the people that text me last week. Now,

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I had checked just before the show. Everything was working fine.

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I had other people text me, not just myself, and

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I had Google Voice and the text were coming in fine.

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Then as soon as the show started and I tried

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to give away T shirts, I looked in the chat

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room and people were saying, hey, you know, nothing's happening,

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and I did not get a single text. I did

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catch one person. I have emailed that person. So if

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you know who you are, if you were in last

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week and you were trying to text when I was

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asking you to text, I will send those people that

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send me an email. I will do it in order

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until I run out of T shirts. And that's Martin

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at podcastufo dot com. So please send me an email

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and I will get you a T shirt in the mail.

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Really prefer people in the United States if possible, because

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I have sent things overseas before and it gets a

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little tricky. So anyway, a couple of other things here.

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We have a great blog. I'm really excited. I haven't

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read it yet. It's on its way in and it's

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by Charles Lear as always and the name of it

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is twentieth and twenty first century Cube in Sphere Reports.

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So that makes me wonder how many reports that Charles

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has dug up, because we're just thinking of what Ryan

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Graves has talked about, and it sounds like there's some

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going back a ways. So I'm excited to hear about that.

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And just another thing. I have a good friend for

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a long time, since we were little kids, and I

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was up the lake here he is right here, Steve,

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my friend Steve. I was up at the lake this summer,

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and you know, I had told him that I do

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a show on UFOs, and he was telling me a

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story of Now his dad was such a nice guy.

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I really thought the world of him. His father was

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a teacher and in the high school. Great guy, as

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I say, and they had five kids and they would

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all pack up the cars in the seventies, in the

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late sixties, early seventies, and they'd all jump in the

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car and they'd go looking for UFOs. I thought that

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was great. I never knew that about him and his family.

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So he brought that up this summer when I was

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at the lake with him, And so this morning he

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sent me this text right here. He lives in Maryland

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and or Baltimore, i should say, and he was walking

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along this morning and he thought of me and sent

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me this. I guess it's a flying saucer. I don't

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see any Reindeers or anything like that, but anyway, there

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it is. But anyway, I got to kick out of that,

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and I just thought i'd share it. So again, I

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wish you all Merry Christmas to all those people that celebrate.

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And I'm bringing in my guests right now. Len, welcome

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to the show. Hi, good to have you, very happy

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to be here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Martin, thank you.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, so I was saying, Carmel Valley's not as

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far as the crow flies. You know what is that?

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Fifty sixty miles from where you live right now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in Palo Alto right now, and we're kind

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of in between San Francisco and Carmel. Yeah you get it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, so you have this documentary made of your sighting.

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How did all that come about?

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Speaker 2: I was at Comcast, one of the comcasts, and I

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was I went to an experior group experiencer group meeting

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where a number of people sit around and talk about

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their sightings, and I shared some of my original sighting

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in nineteen sixty seven in Brockport, New York. And then afterwards,

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the next day, Matthew Salton, the director of the documentary,

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approached me and said he was interested in that particular

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sighting and what I had to say, and would would

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I be would would I mind if he taped me?

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So we began an ongoing conversation that lasted over several

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months as he followed up and gathered more information, and

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then he produced the very interesting short video It's it's

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in It's about eleven minutes or so, and it's animated,

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and he has a very unique and interesting style that

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I think people would find real interesting.

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Speaker 1: And so I thought we'd take the time to, you know,

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talk about your sighting and what that was like for

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you and what a changed in your life all that,

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but first of all, a little bit about yourself, if

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you would.

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Speaker 2: Oh. Well, I'm not retired, but I've had a career

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of I did some I have a degree in journalism.

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I had I was working in presidential politics on a

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successful candidate, this peanut farmer from Georgia who wanted to.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah I heard of him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, also he also saw a UFO and reported it

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back when he was governor of Georgia.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but can I have to stop you? Can I

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stop you right there? I do believe that that that

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was explained. Have you heard about that the missile launch

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build missile launch?

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Speaker 2: No, I have not heard. I haven't heard that it

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was identified.

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Speaker 1: Go ahead, Well, now I know that his grandson was

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contacted by some people that figured out they figured out

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the date in the time, and it was some type

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of failed missile launch. I do believe now people can

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look into that. And what I will do is I'm

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going to make a note right now and I will

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try to find that information and get that straightened out,

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and I'll put that in the show notes. I always

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have interesting, you know, show things that happened during the

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show in the show notes for any of those who

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are listening to this and in the audio, and sometimes

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I actually remember to put the show note link in

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the YouTube video as well. But anyway, yeah, I'll look

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into that more. But I do believe that Jimmy Carter's

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UFO was explained. But still it's great that you know,

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at least he he treated it like it was something

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special and you know, it really got some attention. I'm

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glad he still talked about it, you know, because you know,

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anything that happens like that kind of reduces the stigma.

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I mean, if someone that actually made it to the

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presidency and talks about having UFO, they're going to take

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a lot more serious than the average show. So I

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was glad he talked about it.

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Speaker 2: My hat's off to Jimmy Carter for that. Not only

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was it, what did he report it at a time

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where most people reporting sightings were labeled lunatics and ridiculed,

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and there was a massive stigma against it. But he

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was a politician, so they're even especially more careful about

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any kind of controversy that they might bring up. And

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yet he saw something and he was true to himself

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enough to go ahead and report it. And I think

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he was already governor and running for a second term.

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I'm not sure, but it was right in the height,

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right in the heat of his political life. So I

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admire him for that honesty.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm trying to think. I think it was Jim

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Kucinich that who was running for president at the time,

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and he talked about having a UFO experience. Did you

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ever see that he basically was ridiculed by you mean

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Dennis Dennis is that? Who is it?

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Speaker 2: Dennis Mayor of Cleveland.

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Speaker 1: I believe he talked about it, and I think it

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was Chris Christy that ridiculed him live during a debate,

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and so he basically that was the end of him,

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you know, which is really sad.

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Speaker 2: That did hurt him. I remember that period of time,

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and I remember how how it was it reflected negatively

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on him, the way he came forward and presented it.

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I mean it is. I really appreciate your show over

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the years because you bring more fresh air and light

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into this subject, and I think we need more and

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more of it. Since I've been retired, I have begun

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to explore these incidents in my life that are that

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I would call UFO and anomalous experiences. But I had

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no time while I was working and raising a family,

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and and and climbing the corporate ladder and meeting the

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the mortgage payment and running round you can't talk about

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this stuff. So now that I have time to explore it,

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that's what I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: And I do think that you know, these days, I

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would consider the ridicule factor softened quite a bit, Like

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I believe right now, if someone was well, I would

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hope so. But we I mean, we have such a divisive,

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you know, political environment. But you know, I'm just thinking,

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like if someone's running for president twenty twenty eight and

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they it was brought up the data UFO citing, I

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would like to think that it wouldn't be so detrimental.

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But it's awful hard to say, you know, you know,

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because of the climate of people attacking each other constantly.

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So but I would hope that it would be a

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little easier because of what we've gone through in the

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last several years of it being more acceptable in so

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many ways. Ever since you know, the twenty seventeen article

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came out in the New York Times and you know,

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scientists taking it serious, taking a look at it. I

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think there are all these things that I'm not afraid

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as a professional out there as I don't bring it

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up unless it's a great comfortable conversation with the client.

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But if I feel comfortable enough, I'll bring up that

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I do this show. And I actually have a couple

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of people that have told me they've been listening, so

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that I would have never dared to do that years ago.

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Speaker 2: As a quick illustration of the change in how this

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information is received. Back in nineteen sixty seven, after my

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sight and this sighting was seen by four different uniform

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police officers who reported.

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Speaker 3: It, and.

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Speaker 2: Maybe fifty people along a fifty mile stretch of land

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in western New York. When I would talk to friends,

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good friends of mine, they laugh, they'd ridic you all

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it was a joke. And so over the years I

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just would only talk to people, and you know, people

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who were special, people who I knew would listen to me,

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and people who were somewhat open to this, because the

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ridicule was just so great, and you just get tired

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of trying to fight over fight over it. Then maybe

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about five years ago, I attended my first UFO conference.

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I always wanted to, was always afraid to attended. One

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didn't know what to expect, tinfoil hats, And you know

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what I found were researchers and scientists and journalists and

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experiencers and very serious people who are trying to make

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heads or tails out of this phenomenon. And I was

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standing in the lobby. There was a main speech going

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on inside this room, and I was just standing in

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the lobby and somehow I mentioned to someone out there

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in a quiet voice that yeah, well I did I

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saw UFO. And the funny thing was, I went looking

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for the UFO that night. As soon as I said that,

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people appeared out of nowhere, people I didn't even know

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where around. A camera came on, my figure light came on,

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and people surrounded me. The guy stuck a microphone and

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he was asking me questions, and I just backed out

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of it. My point is that what a difference between,

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you know, in the sixties being ridiculed and then in

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the two thousands people actually wanting to hear the story.

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And it's been dramatic for me to see this change.

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And you're part of it, Martin, you and your colleagues.

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Speaker 1: Well, well, thank you, thank you. Now it's I have

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been I'll give a plug because I think it's someone

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to plug his eyes on Cinema on YouTube. That's a

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channel on YouTube, and there they have just uncovered so

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many vintage, wonderful conversations and about this topic, people being interviewed.

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So I've been watching a bit of that lately, and

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I'm listening to a lot of people talk about well,

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I sure wish I never saw that because of all

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the trouble I've had, and one person was saying about

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how much he was getting badgered. I do believe one

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person talked about that he had his life threatened and

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that he'd just better not talk about it. You know.

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It was the air Force that showed up at his door,

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and not only you think of maybe one or two,

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but they came and they were guarding the area where

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he claims that it landed. There was some trace evidence

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as well, and they there was there on each corner.

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This is at a farm, and there they were guarding

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it in each corner and they wouldn't look at him.

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This is his own property, and I don't know what

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they were doing, but anyway, he was totally threatened by it.

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And you know, so I don't know what would happen

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today if that same situation would happen today. It's awful,

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you know. I mean, you do hear about them somehow

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knowing an event happens and showing up all over the world.

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I have James Fox coming on on Tuesday to twenty ninth,

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and we're going to be talking about the situation in Brazil.

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He has a second release of that with a lot

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more information and so. But in that particular case in Vargina,

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when that UFO incident happened with the beings and it

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was like two days later, the Americans are there. I mean,

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it's just baffling. It's almost like we just don't understand

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what part of whatever it is has all this information,

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how they get it, and how they show up.

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Speaker 2: You know it. It is a labyrinth, isn't it. It

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is hard to figure out, especially when you get into

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the government and disclosure and the misinformation, the disinformation, the

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counter intelligence, I mean, and all of that, all of that. Frankly,

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I'll say, I'm glad that people are looking into it.

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I'm glad that people are researching that stuff that is

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providing headlines and news and commentary on an almost daily,

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if not weekly basis. I'm glad the congressional hearings have

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gone down. I'm glad that the New York Times front page.

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I'm glad that they've printed it and opened it up

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a little bit. For myself, I have found that the

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UFO incident I had when I was sixteen years old

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seemed to begin a series of other anomalous experiences in

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my life that were not related to UFOs, but that

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were of a profound consciousness raising nature, so that ultimately

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I've been able to utilize the change in my attitude

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toward living a better life and having a better life.

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And it's while while I don't know if this is

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everyone's experience, and I know it isn't everyone's experience, and

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I can't positively say that my UFO experience was the

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initiator of all these other things, but I do know

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that there are some researchers such as Diana Pasalka, who

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has included much of my story in her book Encounters,

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Jeffrey Kripel, who does a lot of this work at

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Rice University, and that they have seen academic evidence of

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some of these initial incidents is opening one up to

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other experiences, other sci or paranormal experiences down the road,

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so that in fact, there's I'm part of a survey

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right now Sean Osbiorn Hargins. He's with the California Institute

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of Human Science, and he is doing a survey that

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basically he calls super Experiencer survey, and he's looking at

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and four people who have experienced several anomalous experiences that

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are not the same in other words like I had

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a UFO, then I had a Poultergeist experience, and I

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know you've had a poulter I heard you talk about

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your Poultergeist experience, and.

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Speaker 1: Yeah I had that. I had that first, I had

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that in the nineteen nineties.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And apparently the order doesn't really matter on

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these things. So anyway people are at looking at maybe

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for me it's been spiritual. I will just frankly admit

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for me it's been a matter of consciousness and spirituality

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over the long term. This did not come fast or easy,

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but that's where my path has gone. So I'll let

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other people try to figure out how much the Pentagon

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is hiding and where the information lies with men in Black.

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Speaker 1: All right, so I want to hear what happened in

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nineteen sixty seven. Let's go right into it as much

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detail as you'd like.

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Speaker 2: Well, in kind of a nutshell, because some of this

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is in the movie. And I do recommend people watch

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the movie because.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're playing that at the end. Unless we

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hear from your producer friend, I know you actually text them.

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Speaker 2: I have. I haven't heard back from him yet. I

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don't think he will mind if we do play it,

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he'd probably be honored, but that the sighting itself was

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in Brockport, New York. And it's more, what I'd like

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to try to explain to your viewers is it's not

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so much the sighting, but the circumstances surrounding the sighting

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which have influenced me, stayed with me, and have led

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me to further and deeply explore this. When I first

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read about UFOs, when I was probably thirteen or fourteen

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years old, I'd had like an epiphany that I knew, Yeah,

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this has absolutely got to be true. I listened to

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the I read the way the witnesses described their citing.

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It just made so much sense to me. My understanding

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of the universe was such that it was so vast,

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Why wouldn't there be other kinds of life out there?

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So I became a UFO nut. I started to read

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all the books about it in the early sixties, and

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the magazine articles i'd cut out, newspaper articles i'd talked

341
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to the subject about my friends, and America was UFO crazy.

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Back then? Project Bluebook was going on, there was swamp gas,

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many kinds of different activities were happening. So it was

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in the air, not to mention all the science fiction

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movies of the fifties and sixties about UFOs and aliens

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and Robbie robots and all of that kind of stuff.

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But I didn't know if there was anything to it.

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I kind of enjoyed some of the notoriety of being

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the UFO guy, you know, in my group, the UFO expert,

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and so all my friends knew me, as you know,

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that was part of my interest. I also played sports,

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and I did well in school, and so it wasn't

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It was just a sideline kind of thing, but I

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joked around about it a lot. One day, my buddy

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Tim called and said, there's strange activity in the sky

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over my house. Will you come up and take a look.

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So I went up, and he explained that he had

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seen some things in the sky, like green flashes, and

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he felt something was looking at him. And we went

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outside and we looked around. We couldn't find anything. There

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was some kind of pink orange reddish glow in some

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of the cumulus clouds in the western New York, but

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it was it wasn't remarkable enough to make any kind

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of a report or anything. So we called it quits

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for the night. The next night he said let's sleep out.

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And it was in the summertime, and he said, let's

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sleep out. Come on up. So I was leaving my

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house with a sleeping bag and my dad asked where

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are you going, and I said, I'm going to look

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for flying saucers and he gave me a wave. He

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he taught economics at the local college and that probably

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didn't quite fit into one of his equations, so he

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waved me off and I went up there. I never

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said that before either. I'd never gone looking for flying saucers.

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I never voiced that before. So when we were up

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at Thames, his brother in law Whitey, his brother Joe,

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and I were getting into our sleeping bags. It was

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it was late at night, and someone said, oh, there's

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a there's a flash. Did you see that? And you know,

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I caught out of the corner of my eyes saw

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this like flash and people were going, there's a bean there.

382
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They're being in us, you know, And there was this

383
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frenzy like kittens chasing laser points or something. And and

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finally I caught Whitey, who was the older one. He

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had a flashlight and they were playing a joke on me.

386
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They were shining the flashlight and they were all in

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on it, acting as though, oh there, you know, there's

388
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you know, there's a there's an alien beam coming. We

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all laughed. I laughed, it was a funny joke. No problem.

390
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They went to sleep. I stayed awake. I was staring

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at the universe, pondering it. Just couldn't sleep. At about

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two am, a very large about the size of a

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full moon. Take the full moon and bring it down

394
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to about two hundred two hundred and fifty feet height,

395
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orange red ball of flame was just gliding, taking its merry, slow,

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silent way across the horizon, parallel to the horizon, almost right.

397
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It was probably no more than thirty yards horizontally from me,

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and probably at around two hundred feet is the best

399
00:24:58,559 --> 00:25:05,359
that I can recollec But the thing that I'm hoping

400
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,359
to connect with you about, Martin, is that it was

401
00:25:09,799 --> 00:25:13,160
it almost it just when it appeared. It wasn't a me.

402
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,039
I've seen meteorites, I've looked through telescopes, I've done all

403
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this stuff before in science class, in science fairs and

404
00:25:21,079 --> 00:25:26,319
come scout boy scouts, and this thing seemed to announce

405
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itself when it came into my sight, like here we are,

406
00:25:31,599 --> 00:25:35,519
take a look. I really felt, and I still feel

407
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to this day. Although I didn't talk about this a

408
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lot during the Stigma days, it felt as though something

409
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:51,960
was flying by and waving hello, you've been a good supporter,

410
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,000
You're on the right track. How are you take a look? Enjoy?

411
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And that's how it felt. I woke the other guys up.

412
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They saw it. I thought I would go in and

413
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report it, like a good boy scout to the to

414
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the police or something. And I stopped. I opened the

415
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door to his front front house, front door to his house.

416
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I stopped. I turned back around and said, why am

417
00:26:13,759 --> 00:26:17,279
I doing this? Go look at it, Go behold this,

418
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this this torch that's just slowly going through the sky.

419
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Which I did. And there's another very important detail. There

420
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was a little white star, a little white orb about

421
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the size of a star, following in its trail. Now,

422
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when I looked closely, it looked as though there was

423
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a there was something solid underneath the orange plasma glow

424
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of this and the flames that were coming off the

425
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side and and veering toward the tail. So there was

426
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something something solid. And then there was this little white

427
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,920
orb and it kept, you know, zigzagging, jerking in it's

428
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,640
and I thought, oh my god, this vehicle, this thing

429
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:09,400
is in trouble, it's going to crash. This orb was

430
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,680
a small satellite type craft that's trying to get back

431
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,640
in or trying to help, or was left behind or

432
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something like that. That's what I thought immediately. So everyone

433
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,880
saw it and fell asleep. And then in the next

434
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,240
few days it started to come out in the newspapers,

435
00:27:29,279 --> 00:27:34,000
and there were some reports that were identical to mine.

436
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,519
As I said, there were four cops in the Brockport area,

437
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,240
two Brockport police officers and two Monroe County sheriffs who

438
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,599
not only saw it but reported it. There were a

439
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,759
bunch of people out at State University of New York

440
00:27:46,759 --> 00:27:51,200
at Brockport campus that were rehearsing for a play. One

441
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,319
of the police officers was Dave Martin's who was my

442
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,039
basketball coach. He would work summers as a police officer.

443
00:27:58,519 --> 00:28:05,359
Now one other important aspect of this. Martin and I've

444
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,519
been researching more and more about this Brockport UFO, and

445
00:28:08,559 --> 00:28:11,000
the more I talk about it, the more I presented

446
00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:16,000
in Facebook and other social media, the more information I'm

447
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,839
able to extract from some of the old timers like

448
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,720
myself who lived in that era. There was another person,

449
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,160
a guy named Sidney Zipken, who worked in a town

450
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five miles away, Churchville, New York. He worked as a

451
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night watchman in a park, and he claimed that four

452
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:44,200
hours before we saw the Brockport ufo, he saw was

453
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his headlights flashed onto two small beings who were dressed

454
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:55,279
in black, and when they saw his headlights, they ran

455
00:28:55,559 --> 00:29:01,000
into a spaceship, a flying saucer, and they took off.

456
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:08,519
That's what he claimed. What happened was as the newspaper

457
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,920
reporters tried to put this together, the Sydney Zipken sighting

458
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,759
of aliens took all that took, all the print took,

459
00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:22,440
all the attention, took, all the ridicule. It just about

460
00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:27,480
obscured what we had seen, uh, legitimately.

461
00:29:28,279 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: And so do you think that do you think Sydney's

462
00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:34,119
was not legitimate?

463
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 2: That's a that is the perfect question, Martin. And I'll

464
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,880
tell you why. When I read that he what he said,

465
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I thought, there's no way that he's trying to get

466
00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:51,200
in on our act. He's trying to he's trying to

467
00:29:51,559 --> 00:29:54,680
embellish this thing. That happened. No, I did not believe

468
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,319
him at the time. We didn't. The only thing we

469
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,640
had was Betty and Barney Hill. We didn't We didn't

470
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,319
have a lot of alien abductions. We didn't have the grays.

471
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,400
The grays were not part of the lexicon. It wasn't

472
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,200
part of the world yet then. So no, it was

473
00:30:09,319 --> 00:30:14,160
too far abridge to accept for me, who had just

474
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,119
had what has turned out to be a life transforming

475
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,200
experience with this thing, and so I didn't believe him.

476
00:30:21,359 --> 00:30:24,000
Others didn't. He got fired, He had a life of

477
00:30:24,079 --> 00:30:28,119
crime afterwards. I think he might have died in jail.

478
00:30:29,319 --> 00:30:35,599
So his history trails off a little bit. So. But

479
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:41,640
now as I have been able to see more and

480
00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:45,680
more of the reports, the legitimate reports and stories of

481
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:53,160
grays and aliens and that kind of stuff. When I

482
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,119
look back at what he's quoted in the newspaper articles,

483
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:03,079
sounds exactly normal in these kinds of cases. It sounds

484
00:31:03,079 --> 00:31:05,519
like he was telling the truth all a lot. But

485
00:31:05,599 --> 00:31:07,599
he was too far ahead of his time.

486
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: Especially the coveralls, the overalls, the black suit. They yes,

487
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,960
sometimes they're saying they're wearing gray, black or white, but

488
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,720
they all say they're coveralls, they're you know, like one piece.

489
00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:25,200
They all talk about the same thing, yes, what they

490
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,920
see and he oh, yeah, that was early on for sure,

491
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,079
and he mentioned that, Yes, well the Sacoro case in

492
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:36,559
nineteen sixty six actually did talk about coveralls also, you know,

493
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,039
you'd hear about it, so that's just a year prior.

494
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:44,319
But yeah, very very interesting. And it's too bad if

495
00:31:44,359 --> 00:31:47,319
he actually did see that and received all the ridicule,

496
00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:49,799
and you know, I mean, that was a hard thing

497
00:31:49,839 --> 00:31:52,559
to live with, and you know, it's sad.

498
00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:56,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think absolutely it was sad, and I think

499
00:31:56,599 --> 00:31:59,039
it helped to keep our mouths shut. It helped to

500
00:31:59,079 --> 00:32:02,000
keep me quiet about the whole thing because if I

501
00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:04,519
talk to other people, they thought it was the Sydney

502
00:32:04,599 --> 00:32:07,279
Zipken thing because that had got the you know, the

503
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,240
more the coverage than anything else. So I was part

504
00:32:11,279 --> 00:32:15,759
of that lunatic crowd even, you know, so we we

505
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,039
just it wasn't as open as things are now.

506
00:32:20,319 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: So I'm going to try to do you are there's

507
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:29,880
still information out there about his what his story was. Absolutely,

508
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,400
yeah we should we should put that also in the

509
00:32:32,559 --> 00:32:34,799
uh the show notes for everybody to read about that

510
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,759
as well. I think that would be a good idea.

511
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 2: Now, Diana. Diana mentioned some of it in the book Encounters.

512
00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:44,720
There are if people want to take a look Sidney

513
00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:49,160
Zipken z I P K I N. Rochester, New York.

514
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,799
If you check the archives of the Rochester Democrat and

515
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:57,720
Chronicle newspaper, you will you will find stuff about him,

516
00:32:57,799 --> 00:33:00,680
quite a quite a history because he did have a

517
00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:06,000
number of crimes after this sighting. You know, cause and effect,

518
00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:07,200
I don't know, but.

519
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've found things all July thirty first, nineteen sixty seven.

520
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,200
I have the whole I'll put that in the show

521
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,440
notes for everybody to read as well. In Churchville, New York.

522
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:16,960
I got it.

523
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,319
Speaker 2: Yes, you are thorough.

524
00:33:20,279 --> 00:33:23,359
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's interesting. So this that was the

525
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,440
same night though, right, you.

526
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,079
Speaker 2: Saw what was four hours earlier, So he saw it

527
00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:31,599
very late. He saw at ten pm on July thirty first,

528
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,359
and then our ufol was seen four hours later on

529
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,599
August first, at two am.

530
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: Wow.

531
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,519
Speaker 2: So the other one last thing about a little white

532
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,319
orb in the in the in the tail, Now, none

533
00:33:48,359 --> 00:33:51,920
of the I didn't see any of the reports that

534
00:33:52,119 --> 00:33:54,799
mentioned that, And I showed the reports to my dad

535
00:33:54,839 --> 00:33:57,680
and he looked at me and listened and said, oh, okay.

536
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:03,160
And then I found another report because I was doing

537
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,200
some research on something where people and workers in Genesee

538
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,280
on New York working at a factory trick work were

539
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,559
mentioned to the reporter of the little white orb following

540
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:16,880
in this trail, and I cut that out. I showed

541
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,800
my dad and he read it and he looked up

542
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,000
at me. He says, now I believe you.

543
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: Huh. Well, that's good vindication.

544
00:34:24,519 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 2: It was vidication, but it was also damning because I

545
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:30,199
didn't know he didn't.

546
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: Believe exactly exactly. So you know that also when you

547
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,840
talk about the little orb following, you hear that a

548
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,880
number of times, and you know, even heard about in

549
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,320
the Ariel school incident that there were these little round

550
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,440
orbs spinning around the outside of the crafts that were landing,

551
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:47,920
you know.

552
00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:52,519
Speaker 2: So it's fascinating. And Spielberg included that in close Encounters

553
00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:56,880
of the third kind, when the crafts really come, you'll

554
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:02,159
see little orbs that come flashing through behind it. Whatnot? Now,

555
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:03,719
how are your next movie?

556
00:35:04,079 --> 00:35:08,119
Speaker 1: How are your friends talking about the situation afterward?

557
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,679
Speaker 2: I have a good friend who called me after the

558
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,840
New York Times put had the article by Leslie Kane

559
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,000
on the front page of the New York Times and

560
00:35:22,199 --> 00:35:25,639
talked about the Pentagon, UFOs, the tic TACs and the others,

561
00:35:26,079 --> 00:35:31,400
and he said, Wow, then you know, I'm really starting

562
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,880
to pay attention to this now. So I think that

563
00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:39,159
people are starting to take this more seriously. They have to,

564
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,880
the rest of the world is taking it seriously.

565
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,599
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm met in particular about your friends that were

566
00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:48,000
with you that night. Did you talk about it a

567
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,119
lot after that or did they not want to really

568
00:35:50,119 --> 00:35:50,840
talk about it?

569
00:35:51,039 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 2: Not a great deal. I did talk a lot with Tim,

570
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,159
who was in my class and we played basketball and

571
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:03,960
football together. We lost touch after a while, but when

572
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,559
I started to do some when Diana wanted me to

573
00:36:08,599 --> 00:36:12,840
provide some input on this story and others for encounters,

574
00:36:14,119 --> 00:36:16,800
I wanted to get in touch with Tim. So I

575
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,920
gave him a call and asked what he remembered and

576
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,239
if I could use his name, and he said, absolutely,

577
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:28,719
use my name, Tim Hurley, and so I did, and

578
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:34,239
then I went. I went down to Rice University for

579
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:41,920
the first Jeffrey Kreipel Archives of the Impossible conference and

580
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:47,519
found out that Tim lives probably two blocks away from

581
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,280
that Rice conference hall. So when I walked from my

582
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,760
hotel over to the conference hall, I'd stop and say

583
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,960
hello to Tim. So we reminisced and we caught up

584
00:36:59,039 --> 00:37:02,719
on it. So, yes, he still talks about it. The

585
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,320
two other guys don't have quite the memory of it

586
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,639
that we do. But I think they were groggy. I

587
00:37:09,639 --> 00:37:14,480
think they were sleeping. And I think also you may

588
00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:18,679
find I have this with my poltergeist experience at sometimes

589
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:23,000
something right in front of you that is dramatic, other

590
00:37:23,079 --> 00:37:27,480
people just aren't recognizing, they don't see it, and it's

591
00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:29,880
a part of a phenomenon within this.

592
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. I had a conversation the other day with someone

593
00:37:36,519 --> 00:37:39,000
that had an amazing sighting. He's been on the show before.

594
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:44,280
He really didn't want me to talk about it because

595
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,320
he was traumatized by his situation. But what I thought

596
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,960
he said was very interesting. He said he felt as

597
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:59,039
though that the whole situation was orchestrated ahead of time. Somehow.

598
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:03,519
He has that feeling, and this was a major sighting

599
00:38:03,639 --> 00:38:08,000
that he had with lots of people that witnessed it

600
00:38:08,079 --> 00:38:11,360
with him, and he has just like this feeling that

601
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,800
it was all orchestrated and meant to happen. Did you

602
00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:19,159
I've never really heard anyone mention anything like that. Is

603
00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:22,000
there any point that makes you ever think of something

604
00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:23,480
like that about this encounter?

605
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,159
Speaker 2: Well, we're getting into it, Martin, and I appreciate the

606
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,760
surgical skill with which you're asking these questions, because yes,

607
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,679
in a way I do. Now please understand that I

608
00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:46,280
I you know, I can't swear that I know for

609
00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:52,679
certain that there was something planned about the whole thing,

610
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:59,400
but because of me being a UFO, not me going

611
00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:02,599
up the only night ever I've said that I'm going

612
00:39:02,639 --> 00:39:08,119
to look for flying saucers, the kids playing a prank

613
00:39:08,199 --> 00:39:11,239
on me with the light and making fun of the UFO,

614
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,840
them asleep, and then this thing appearing and getting the

615
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:22,079
feeling it wasn't you know, It wasn't words or language

616
00:39:22,159 --> 00:39:26,280
or anything like that, but it was this warm kind

617
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:37,599
of feeling of increasing consciousness that that we we know

618
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,320
what you've been going through, and here we are. Keep

619
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,519
up the effort, now, Martin, I have to say I

620
00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:46,960
was a kid. I was seventh what was I sixteen?

621
00:39:47,639 --> 00:39:51,679
And I knew even then that if I thought that way,

622
00:39:52,079 --> 00:39:56,559
that is so egotistical, that so typical of adolescent behavior.

623
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,239
That I'm not going to let that stay in my head.

624
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,719
I just rejected that. I didn't talk to anyone about it.

625
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:07,159
I couldn't bring myself to believe. Then later, as other

626
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,639
things have gone on, and I've had that same feeling

627
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:17,400
almost of a you know, of a consciousness reconstruction effort

628
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:22,880
going on that I just wonder if maybe maybe there

629
00:40:23,039 --> 00:40:31,360
was something planned or or some symbiotic synchronicity going on.

630
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,719
I just don't know. That's partly why I'm I'm doing

631
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,440
these things. That's partly why I'm researching it, because I

632
00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:41,639
think ultimately it's dealing with the very nature of reality

633
00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:49,039
and how human beings, what's real and true and authentic

634
00:40:49,119 --> 00:40:57,559
with human beings that our our materialistic, Western scientific focus

635
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,280
does not allow into the conversation. So I'm not as

636
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,679
articulate as I'd like to be on this subject.

637
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,119
Speaker 1: But no, you're doing You're actually really great.

638
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: So.

639
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,079
Speaker 1: Ted Rowe is a longtime UFO researcher lives in Hawaii.

640
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,199
He talks about a situation where he was in Oakland

641
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,440
and he saw like this thing coming down and somehow

642
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,639
he knew it was there. He was just riding in

643
00:41:23,679 --> 00:41:26,880
the back of a car, and he looked up and

644
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,079
saw this thing and somehow he felt as though it

645
00:41:31,159 --> 00:41:34,559
was there for him. I know it sounds egotistical, but

646
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,239
it's not really, because there's so many people that just

647
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,400
have this feeling for some reason the thing shows up,

648
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,679
they know it's going to show up before it even

649
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,760
shows up, and then they somehow there's somehow, some type

650
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,400
of weird connection. And I've said on the show before,

651
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,039
you know, I questioned reality all the time when it

652
00:41:55,079 --> 00:41:59,159
comes to these things, and you know, so many different things,

653
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,519
especially if you go down to the quantum level. But

654
00:42:01,639 --> 00:42:04,159
that's a whole nother discussion, you know, but.

655
00:42:04,519 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 2: That as part of it. I think that's part of it.

656
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,920
And I've talked to I've talked to Ted Rowe about this,

657
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,000
and yes, and he's told me many story that's not

658
00:42:14,119 --> 00:42:17,440
the only story that he that he had, and he's

659
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:22,760
he's fascinating with with the things that these that he's undergone.

660
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:30,360
So uh, it's it's all very interesting. Then as you

661
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,920
peel the onion back a little bit more, I'm just

662
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,119
gonna go ahead and and and throw this out there.

663
00:42:37,519 --> 00:42:41,599
As I've as I've researched this more, it came to

664
00:42:41,679 --> 00:42:47,239
my attention in the newspaper articles that one of the

665
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:56,840
Brockport police officers who who reported this Brockport UFO, reported

666
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:02,719
it from his location at Maine and Monroe Avenue. Now

667
00:43:03,119 --> 00:43:06,800
I know that intersection very well. Brockport's a small village.

668
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,360
I know that it's right right across from the Catholic Church.

669
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,199
It's right down the street from a bar that would

670
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,039
stay open very late and police would sit there and

671
00:43:19,159 --> 00:43:24,559
looking for impaired drivers leaving. So I know exactly how

672
00:43:24,599 --> 00:43:26,760
he was parked because you can't park on the other side.

673
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,719
He's facing Main Street. Right across Main Street, just right

674
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,719
across is South Street where my parents lived. So if

675
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:40,800
he's sitting in his car looking out his windshield and

676
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,280
he sees it, I don't know if he was standing

677
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,480
or sitting. He's probably sitting. If he's sitting in his

678
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,719
car looking at his windshield, it would would have been

679
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,679
it would have had to have been somewhere over the

680
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,400
house on South Street where I grew up, where my

681
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,760
parents lived, But I wasn't there. I was up at Hurley's.

682
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,559
And when the when the and if if if if

683
00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:07,719
it had been coming from fans Or New York and

684
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,880
going past South Street and up Rockport to go in

685
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,280
the direction that it did over me, it would have

686
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,079
had to have taken a left hand turn or or

687
00:44:19,559 --> 00:44:23,079
a turn to the east and and taken a turn

688
00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:26,599
to come, you know, and be just so full uh,

689
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:32,840
you know, full square in my view now, I I

690
00:44:33,039 --> 00:44:36,719
just add that, if there's any I have no idea

691
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,400
what that means. I don't believe that they were like

692
00:44:39,639 --> 00:44:45,519
looking for Len, but it does add a It seems

693
00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:50,719
to help a little bit explain this almost familiarity I

694
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,840
had with with citing this. It was this, It was this,

695
00:44:56,039 --> 00:44:59,360
though I was answered in a way, it's very strange.

696
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,960
I've still trying to figure it out, Martin. I'm writing

697
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,599
a book about it. I haven't processed all this stuff

698
00:45:05,679 --> 00:45:07,920
right now. I'm throwing out information.

699
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:14,199
Speaker 1: Now, when you had this happen, do you believe that

700
00:45:14,199 --> 00:45:16,280
that nothing ever happened before?

701
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 2: You know?

702
00:45:17,039 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: I mean, or how about afterwards this other? Have you

703
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,639
had other UFO sightings after this?

704
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 2: I never had another UFO sighting after this. I had

705
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:34,000
a Poulter a very dramatic poltergeist sighting. I then had

706
00:45:34,159 --> 00:45:44,800
a this this Kundalini kind of this this eruptive Kundalini experience,

707
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,039
and I didn't even have language for at the time.

708
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,960
It's only in retrospect that that it sounds like a

709
00:45:51,079 --> 00:45:57,000
Kundalini experience. And then I had another experience that Diana

710
00:45:57,079 --> 00:46:01,480
talks about where I had a vision of Archbishop Fulton

711
00:46:01,559 --> 00:46:03,559
Jay Sheen on the night he died when we were

712
00:46:03,599 --> 00:46:09,199
both in New York City, that Diana talks about in encounters.

713
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:15,840
So for me, there's been this progression of opening my

714
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:21,440
consciousness more and more in kind of a spiritual path

715
00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:25,920
so that when I needed to make a leap, I

716
00:46:26,079 --> 00:46:31,360
was able to more realistically make a leap. That has

717
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:38,519
made all the difference in my life. It's I have

718
00:46:38,639 --> 00:46:42,119
had a very positive experience with all of this, but no,

719
00:46:42,559 --> 00:46:44,880
only that one UFO experience.

720
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,119
Speaker 1: Okay, well, you know I'm not going to let you

721
00:46:47,159 --> 00:46:51,440
get away without telling your Poltigeist story. I want to

722
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:51,719
hear you.

723
00:46:52,119 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 2: I I heard yours. I enjoyed it a great deal. Yeah,

724
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,599
we were. I was kind of a hitchhiking hippie and

725
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,639
wound up in a in a sort of a commune

726
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,639
farm working situation in Tulsa, Oklahoma. It was in the

727
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,920
early probably nineteen seventy one, and I was with a

728
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,280
bunch of friends and the guy who rented the farmhouse

729
00:47:16,559 --> 00:47:21,199
also ran a construction company called Empire Construction in Tulsa,

730
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,639
and we all were construction for him. He gave us

731
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,559
jobs and we worked. One day, he invited all of

732
00:47:26,639 --> 00:47:30,639
us out to his house to enjoy a Sunday brunch

733
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:35,679
that was packed with pancakes and eggs and bacon and

734
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:40,800
you name it. We had a feast and after we ate,

735
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,119
we retired to the living room and we were talking.

736
00:47:45,519 --> 00:47:47,840
You know, back in those days, in the in the

737
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,920
late sixties early seventies, there was a lot of talk

738
00:47:50,960 --> 00:48:01,280
about astrology, gurge, consciousness. There were drugs around, all kinds

739
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,079
of things. There were no drugs involved in this poltergeist

740
00:48:04,159 --> 00:48:09,119
experience at all, but we were talking things metaphysical, and

741
00:48:11,599 --> 00:48:16,199
al said, the owner of the house and the construction company,

742
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,239
he said, well, we have a poultergeist here in the house.

743
00:48:20,159 --> 00:48:22,719
And we all were kind of looking and I think

744
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,519
it was me. I think it was me who asked,

745
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,199
did you name it? I was kind of joking but

746
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:34,480
wanted him to keep talking about it, you know, have

747
00:48:34,599 --> 00:48:39,199
you named it? And he said, as a matter of fact,

748
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,719
we're all in the living room. There's probably about eight

749
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,519
or eight, could have been ten of us, he says,

750
00:48:44,559 --> 00:48:47,440
as a matter of fact, we have And then he said,

751
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,400
we've named it blank. And I don't remember what the

752
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,159
name is. I do not remember what the name is.

753
00:48:54,679 --> 00:48:59,639
And as soon as he said the name, there were

754
00:48:59,639 --> 00:49:04,239
two French doors leading to another room, not to the outside,

755
00:49:05,159 --> 00:49:08,199
that were right in the in the living room that

756
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:14,039
flew flew open so much so that the the the

757
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:20,760
curtains on it, you know, extended horizontally like a like

758
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,920
like a Wyath painting. Uh, you know, it was, it was.

759
00:49:25,039 --> 00:49:29,960
It was remarkable, and I felt this this thing just

760
00:49:30,119 --> 00:49:33,719
sort of whoosh into the room. And I've tried and

761
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,119
the way I've described it is that it felt like

762
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:41,320
if say, you're reading at home and you you all

763
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,960
of a sudden look up and your wife's looking at you.

764
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,360
You kind of sensed her looking at you before you

765
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,840
looked up to find out she's in fact there a person.

766
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:57,599
It felt like that kind of a uh, human presence

767
00:49:57,639 --> 00:50:03,159
of some kind was being forced rapidly through the room.

768
00:50:03,559 --> 00:50:07,360
Now I looked around, you know, in a split second,

769
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,639
I looked around, and many others were still just looking

770
00:50:09,679 --> 00:50:12,519
at Al. They weren't looking at the Poultergeist. And I

771
00:50:12,519 --> 00:50:16,599
couldn't understand that. It was as though some of them

772
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,760
were in like a form of I can only describe

773
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:24,840
it as suspended animation. It was. It was bizarre. And

774
00:50:25,199 --> 00:50:27,719
I looked around and then Al said something like, you know,

775
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,480
the grass is getting long outside. I've got a mow

776
00:50:30,599 --> 00:50:34,239
it soon. And the snell broke and everyone got back

777
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,159
to normal, and no one talked about this UFO and

778
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,320
didn't talk about a phase. There's one person, what.

779
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: Did I say, you said, UFO? Nobody talking about I

780
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:46,519
met polger guys.

781
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 2: So I did some research on this because it was

782
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,239
one of my anomalous experiences. And I and I talked

783
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,639
to Al. I talked to his former wife, I talked

784
00:50:55,639 --> 00:50:58,679
to his daughter. I talked to a number of people there.

785
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,239
They all verified there was Poltergeis activity. There were cookies

786
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,400
crumbled in the middle of the floor, dishes that were

787
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,480
broken in the middle of the floor, banging cupboards and

788
00:51:07,559 --> 00:51:12,079
steps and all that stuff. And they figured that there

789
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:17,239
had been a young boy who drowned in a park

790
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,559
across the street who lived in that house, and they

791
00:51:20,639 --> 00:51:24,559
thought that he was the Poultergeist. What Al and his

792
00:51:24,599 --> 00:51:30,400
wife did was after many years or after a while,

793
00:51:30,679 --> 00:51:35,039
they had some kind of a cleansing ceremony with you know,

794
00:51:35,159 --> 00:51:39,920
with the burning incense and smudgeling the smudger thank you,

795
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:44,440
and they invited the poultergeist to leave. They say, okay,

796
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:46,599
you don't have to stay here anymore. We invite you

797
00:51:46,679 --> 00:51:49,000
to leave. It's okay to leave. And he said that

798
00:51:49,159 --> 00:51:51,639
was the end of it. So I interviewed him before

799
00:51:51,679 --> 00:51:53,760
he died. But I wanted to get some of the

800
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,800
other hippies who were with me to verify. And I

801
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,000
called several of them. Some are dead and some were

802
00:52:01,039 --> 00:52:03,280
still alive, and they don't remember it. And I'm going,

803
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,000
I'm allawing my hair outgoing that's the reason for my

804
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,599
lack of hair. I'm trying to figure out what in

805
00:52:10,639 --> 00:52:15,039
the world, How could they not remember this right? And

806
00:52:15,079 --> 00:52:18,079
so I really gave up. I was writing it for Diana.

807
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,599
I was putting diligently, trying to be as factual as

808
00:52:21,639 --> 00:52:24,840
I possibly could, and I just gave up because I couldn't.

809
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,360
I on the Martin, I swear to you, on the

810
00:52:28,519 --> 00:52:32,320
very day that I said I'm not going to get anyone.

811
00:52:32,519 --> 00:52:35,840
My friend Mike de Groat from Brockport gave me a call.

812
00:52:36,079 --> 00:52:38,880
Hardly ever calls. He called me. I said, did you

813
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,800
hear Al Frampton died? He goes, oh, I'm sorry to

814
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:45,440
hear that. I remember Tulsa. I remember the farm, I

815
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:49,480
remember construction. I remember the ghost. I remember I said,

816
00:52:49,599 --> 00:52:55,480
what stop, rewind? You remember the ghost? He was there.

817
00:52:56,079 --> 00:52:58,280
I forgot that he was there because he left the

818
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,920
commune early. He left and he wasn't part of and

819
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,559
so my memory did not include him. I didn't even

820
00:53:04,639 --> 00:53:07,719
check with him. So I have him on tape. I've

821
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,079
taped him, I've interview him. He saw exactly what I

822
00:53:10,119 --> 00:53:14,559
saw exactly, except he felt cold. That wind was cold

823
00:53:14,679 --> 00:53:17,280
and chilling. He said it was the scariest thing that

824
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:21,800
he's ever experienced in his life. So there's the thing, Martin,

825
00:53:22,599 --> 00:53:26,199
where you can have eight people, two of them experience

826
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,840
it and the others don't. And I don't know why,

827
00:53:29,159 --> 00:53:33,039
but something is about the nature of reality, and.

828
00:53:34,599 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's Yeah. I have a situation where

829
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,199
I have talked about it on this show before, and

830
00:53:42,199 --> 00:53:46,079
that is I had a fireball sighting around nineteen eighty

831
00:53:46,119 --> 00:53:50,280
five that was just absolutely incredible, and I explained it

832
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:56,039
to someone like Mark dey Antonio as astronomer because it's

833
00:53:56,079 --> 00:53:59,199
such a weird situation. Look like a like a ball,

834
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,480
perfectly shaped round. It was turning as it was going

835
00:54:03,519 --> 00:54:07,719
over It was huge, and it had cracks like orange

836
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,559
cracks in it like lava looked like, and sparks were

837
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,199
popping off of it. No noise. This thing's turning going overhead.

838
00:54:15,559 --> 00:54:19,400
And I'm in a hot tub again, two times hot

839
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,159
tub for that UFO hot tub for this. So I'm

840
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:24,760
yelling at my son's mother. She was in the hot tub,

841
00:54:25,159 --> 00:54:27,599
and I'm saying, look, look, And on the third time

842
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:30,599
she looked and she goes, oh wow. You know, as

843
00:54:30,599 --> 00:54:34,039
we were seeing it go over towards the Atlantic, and

844
00:54:34,599 --> 00:54:36,760
I was had a house three miles from the Atlantic

845
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:37,679
at the time.

846
00:54:37,679 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 2: So.

847
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: I think it was about two months ago. I saw

848
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:44,039
my son's mother and I was talking to her and

849
00:54:44,039 --> 00:54:47,320
I said, hey, you remember when that that fireball that

850
00:54:47,559 --> 00:54:49,679
went right overhead, And I'm telling you to look. And

851
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,920
by the time I said the third time, you finally

852
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,840
turn and saw it, she goes, no, I don't remember that.

853
00:54:56,079 --> 00:54:59,199
It is like what I mean, it was so dramatic.

854
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,360
How could you not remember that? You know it's it's

855
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:04,920
it is baffling.

856
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:07,519
Speaker 2: And your fireball flying Martin.

857
00:55:07,679 --> 00:55:09,519
Speaker 1: I could I couldn't tell you for sure. I mean

858
00:55:09,559 --> 00:55:11,920
it looked like I could throw a rock at it.

859
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,639
I mean it really did. But I but I didn't

860
00:55:14,639 --> 00:55:16,960
hear any sound either, so it had to be up

861
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:20,039
really high. It was just massive, yeah, And but you

862
00:55:20,079 --> 00:55:22,159
would think it would have like a streak behind it,

863
00:55:22,199 --> 00:55:24,960
like a tail, but no, there was sparks popping off

864
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,000
of it. And when I talked, like I said, I

865
00:55:27,039 --> 00:55:29,679
talked to Mark ti Antonio, I said, has anyone ever

866
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:31,320
and he goes, oh, yeah, that's you know, like it

867
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,360
was no big deal to me. It was like much

868
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:38,639
more dramatic than my UFO citing. I mean, but did

869
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:39,199
he have a.

870
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:43,519
Speaker 2: Did he have an astronomical reason for it?

871
00:55:44,599 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 1: No, he just said, no, it's not He acted like

872
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,320
it was not all that unusual. I'll have to revisit

873
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,239
him and talk about that. But I think, you know,

874
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,119
we are at the end of the show, so I'd

875
00:55:55,119 --> 00:55:59,000
like to play the the documentary and if you could

876
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:04,679
just kind of go guess you basically already explained it,

877
00:56:04,679 --> 00:56:07,159
But can you introduce this thing and then I'll bring

878
00:56:07,159 --> 00:56:08,199
it in play it.

879
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is by a very creative filmmaker, Matthew Salton.

880
00:56:16,199 --> 00:56:21,599
It's called Psychedelic in the Sky and I believe in

881
00:56:21,639 --> 00:56:23,960
one of my conversations with him, he said, what was

882
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,199
it like? I said, well, this UFO I saw it

883
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:28,800
was like a psychedelic in the sky because it was

884
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,920
a mind altering experience for me. And he used that

885
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,119
as the title. And what he does, he's explored. It's

886
00:56:36,159 --> 00:56:39,039
not really all about Len and the UFO and the

887
00:56:39,039 --> 00:56:44,039
Brockport UFO. What he's doing is exploring his own fascination

888
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,400
with this subject from an early age and he still

889
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:51,599
remains fascinated, doesn't know, doesn't have any answers like I

890
00:56:51,679 --> 00:56:57,039
have no answers. I am exploring it and he's exploring

891
00:56:57,159 --> 00:56:59,559
his exploration.

892
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 1: Okay, all right with that, you know we're going to

893
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:04,880
close all it after the show. So I want to

894
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,960
thank you so much. It's been a very enjoyable conversation

895
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,280
and just to let the listener, we'll be back on

896
00:57:11,559 --> 00:57:15,360
next a week from tonight, Tuesday, the twenty ninth, with

897
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:20,440
the James Fox crossing my fingers because James is always tricky,

898
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,400
I'll put it that way. But anyway, I am going

899
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,280
to share the video now. Thank you so much. Len.

900
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:28,280
It's been a real pleasure.

901
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,199
Speaker 2: Thank you, mar I really enjoyed it tremendously.

902
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 1: Okay, and here we go. Bear with me, everyone, because

903
00:57:34,719 --> 00:57:36,960
it's always tricky to share these things, and we'll just

904
00:57:37,239 --> 00:57:38,760
try to do what I can to get it going

905
00:57:39,199 --> 00:57:40,079
right now, Here we go.

906
00:57:43,239 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 4: The child, I had a reoccurring dream. We're small alien

907
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,280
heads would float into my room, bobbing around my bed.

908
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:06,559
When is a UFO story no longer to UFO story?

909
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:16,079
When I was a child, I had a reoccurring dream

910
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,920
where small alien heads would float into my room, bobbing

911
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:27,280
around my bed. Looking back, it makes sense. I watched

912
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,800
a lot of sci fi in the X Files. And

913
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:34,119
then there were my parents. Their faith told them that

914
00:58:34,159 --> 00:58:36,360
God had created more life than was just on earth,

915
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:39,360
so they almost take it as like a matter of fact, like, yeah,

916
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:43,639
of course there's aliens out there, so what else was

917
00:58:43,639 --> 00:58:49,440
I supposed to believe? Fast forward to today, and I

918
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:53,599
still can't put it down. I'm obsessed with this idea

919
00:58:53,639 --> 00:58:55,719
that the world is far bigger and stranger than we

920
00:58:55,719 --> 00:59:00,960
could ever imagine. I've dabbled in making films about strange

921
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:05,239
and mysterious things before, but UFO films always seemed like

922
00:59:05,239 --> 00:59:08,599
a bridge too far. I just couldn't take them seriously.

923
00:59:10,599 --> 00:59:12,760
But I kept coming back to that conversation I had

924
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:16,840
with my parents, how confident they'd been, so even though

925
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:20,039
I lacked that kind of faith, or maybe because of it,

926
00:59:20,639 --> 00:59:23,320
I decided to risk ridicule and make a UFO film.

927
00:59:24,639 --> 00:59:27,960
But to take it seriously, I needed a serious subject.

928
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:31,320
That's what drew me to Lenn.

929
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:37,079
Speaker 2: Now. I didn't take any of it seriously until maybe

930
00:59:37,119 --> 00:59:38,159
thirteen years old.

931
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 4: He was speaking at an event for experiencers.

932
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,039
Speaker 2: I didn't know, but I was struck by the UFO

933
00:59:44,159 --> 00:59:45,159
bug at that point.

934
00:59:45,599 --> 00:59:49,679
Speaker 4: His story started out like mine. But in the nineteen sixties.

935
00:59:49,679 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 2: There was a magazine called Reader's Digest. Reading these witnesses.

936
00:59:54,079 --> 00:59:57,679
It seemed that they were telling the truth. It was

937
00:59:57,719 --> 01:00:02,000
the first time I really thought, is there life elsewhere

938
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,920
in the universe? And it made complete sense to me

939
01:00:06,039 --> 01:00:06,840
that there would be.

940
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: There's so much.

941
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 4: One thing I discovered while talking to Len and others

942
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:14,280
like him, was that stories of close encounters rarely fit

943
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,920
the mold of what I expected it's just.

944
01:00:17,519 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 2: Once you see something, it's just it's a transformational, transcendental

945
01:00:25,079 --> 01:00:31,119
kind of experience. This was in the summer of nineteen

946
01:00:31,159 --> 01:00:34,400
sixty seven. My dad was in the living room on

947
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:39,400
a chair. I put an old World War two sleeping

948
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:42,920
bag over my shoulder and he said, where are you going?

949
01:00:43,679 --> 01:00:46,760
I said, I'm going up to Tims to look for

950
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:47,760
flying saucers.

951
01:00:49,119 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 4: Len and some friends had heard about some strange lights

952
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:55,280
in the sky outside their town. They kempt out one

953
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:56,119
night and waited.

954
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 2: At about two am, it came bursting like through a

955
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:17,760
different dimension, a very large orange sphere with flames coming

956
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:19,920
off the front of it and the side of it,

957
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:24,519
with a little white star orb following in its trail.

958
01:01:27,599 --> 01:01:33,519
It's very being, it's very fact that it's there. Was screaming,

959
01:01:33,639 --> 01:01:38,880
We're from somewhere else. This is not a normal Earth experience.

960
01:01:43,599 --> 01:01:47,079
Speaker 4: More than thirty residents from nearby towns and villages reported

961
01:01:47,119 --> 01:01:47,960
sightings that night.

962
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:52,559
Speaker 2: Several workers taking a brain at a factory sawsketjesawst a

963
01:01:52,679 --> 01:01:53,400
troopers son.

964
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,039
Speaker 4: Like I said, I consume a lot of UFO content,

965
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,360
So when I encounter stories like this, I inevitably think

966
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:02,679
of the work of Jacques Vala.

967
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 3: What we know today about the uful phenomenon is considerably

968
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:09,960
more than twenty years ago or ten years.

969
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 4: Ago, and he's one of the few scientists who believes

970
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:14,639
there's much more we can learn from these settings other

971
01:02:14,679 --> 01:02:16,599
than just stories of strange lights in the sky.

972
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,559
Speaker 3: And we have to understand it at three different levels.

973
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:24,840
The first level is the physical level.

974
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:30,239
Speaker 2: That thing came right over, right as close as can be,

975
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:31,360
over our head.

976
01:02:31,639 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 4: Almost all described it like lendd.

977
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:38,000
Speaker 2: Seeing the little white orb following in the trail. The

978
01:02:38,159 --> 01:02:45,559
articles appeared and they quickly faded away. I don't I

979
01:02:45,599 --> 01:02:48,199
don't think I told very many people that it might

980
01:02:48,239 --> 01:02:53,800
have been somehow personal. It was like a beacon in

981
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:56,800
the night. It was like a torch, if you will.

982
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:02,679
This feeling came over me, this this thought they were

983
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:08,360
giving me a hello. That's exactly how I felt. You've

984
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:10,679
supported us, keep the faith.

985
01:03:12,519 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 4: When it's a UFO story, no longer just a UFO story.

986
01:03:21,239 --> 01:03:24,039
Speaker 2: I have no idea what I saw, but it scared

987
01:03:24,079 --> 01:03:27,519
me to death. It was bigger than my house. It

988
01:03:27,599 --> 01:03:29,679
was just an enormous growing on it.

989
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:34,679
Speaker 4: Not everyone reports a craft, but luminous lights and orbs

990
01:03:34,679 --> 01:03:35,719
that appear and disappear.

991
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 1: It was doing figures of eight.

992
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:41,199
Speaker 4: It was doing loops for a while, it was changing color.

993
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:44,719
Sometimes there are strange creatures.

994
01:03:45,239 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 2: He was but seven feet tall.

995
01:03:47,519 --> 01:03:48,719
Speaker 1: I'm a silver suited man.

996
01:03:49,119 --> 01:03:50,679
Speaker 3: He was there for about two hours.

997
01:03:51,159 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 4: People encountered psychic phenomena.

998
01:03:53,159 --> 01:03:59,599
Speaker 2: I got seemingly a telepathic message while I was meditating.

999
01:04:00,119 --> 01:04:02,599
Speaker 1: Voice switched over to Latin.

1000
01:04:04,039 --> 01:04:05,519
Speaker 4: Dreams and visions would follow.

1001
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 2: Oftentimes they would say we are you and you or us.

1002
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:12,519
Speaker 4: There are even cases of people being healed from physical ailments.

1003
01:04:13,599 --> 01:04:18,039
A lot of experiencers even interpreted their encounter as religiously significant.

1004
01:04:18,039 --> 01:04:21,239
Speaker 3: Whether they are a cop driving on the lonely road,

1005
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:25,159
or PhD or bank president, whether they are religious or

1006
01:04:25,159 --> 01:04:29,320
not religious, their view of themselves, their view of the

1007
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:30,400
world around them, the.

1008
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:35,440
Speaker 2: View of the universe has been shattered. You see a UFO,

1009
01:04:36,119 --> 01:04:40,880
and that is consciousness expanding. It's like a psychedelic flying

1010
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:47,679
in the sky.

1011
01:04:56,599 --> 01:05:01,199
Speaker 3: The second level is what happens to witnesses. What could

1012
01:05:01,239 --> 01:05:03,639
happen to you and me if we were close to

1013
01:05:03,679 --> 01:05:07,920
that source of English with physiological and the psychological correlations

1014
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:09,239
of the close and.

1015
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:15,519
Speaker 4: Calor len siding awakened him to a life filled with

1016
01:05:15,599 --> 01:05:18,920
deep meaning, and what he describes were a series of

1017
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:26,360
mind boggling experiences spanning several decades. Visions, physical sensations, premonitions,

1018
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:31,159
even a potential poltergeist that started with his first UFO setting.

1019
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 2: It's not a belief these things happened to me. It

1020
01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:38,480
would be a lot easier for me if I saw

1021
01:05:38,719 --> 01:05:42,679
UFO and the next thing was another UFO and it

1022
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,039
was all UFO. They don't. It doesn't fit a one

1023
01:05:46,119 --> 01:05:47,880
particular mold.

1024
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:51,400
Speaker 4: I mean, it's a little bit too much for me. Yeah,

1025
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:54,000
seeing a light or a craft is one thing, but

1026
01:05:54,039 --> 01:06:02,039
once you involve any sort of spirituality, consciousness, I don't know,

1027
01:06:02,559 --> 01:06:05,960
people run away thinking about it.

1028
01:06:06,159 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 2: It's too much for me. Back in sixty seven.

1029
01:06:10,719 --> 01:06:14,079
Speaker 4: The same night Len saw his UFO, ten miles away,

1030
01:06:14,159 --> 01:06:15,880
there was a report of another siding.

1031
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:19,679
Speaker 2: There was a watchman at a nearby town of Churchville,

1032
01:06:19,719 --> 01:06:26,280
New York named Sydney Zipkin, who claimed that he pulled

1033
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:30,960
into the park with his headlights on and he saw

1034
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:36,360
a landed craft and two, as he called it, midgets

1035
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:41,440
in shiny black uniforms, and when they saw him, they

1036
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:43,320
got into their craft and they took.

1037
01:06:43,119 --> 01:06:46,159
Speaker 4: Off, And how close was this to your.

1038
01:06:46,119 --> 01:06:50,440
Speaker 2: Four hours earlier? Even I didn't believe him. I thought

1039
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:54,800
this guy was whacked. But as you as you moved

1040
01:06:54,840 --> 01:07:02,199
through the years, maybe it was telling plain the truth.

1041
01:07:04,559 --> 01:07:05,159
I don't know.

1042
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,639
Speaker 3: There is a third level, which is a social level,

1043
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:19,719
the impact on our belief system. At that level, it

1044
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:23,199
really doesn't matter whether UFOs are real or not. If

1045
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,639
enough people believe that something is real, then it is

1046
01:07:26,679 --> 01:07:28,199
real in its in its effect.

1047
01:07:30,559 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 4: Instead of delivering messages about far away worlds, could UFOs

1048
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:37,079
have more to tell us about ourselves?

1049
01:07:44,159 --> 01:07:47,519
Speaker 3: Could the UFO phenomenon be manipulating us? It'd be a

1050
01:07:47,559 --> 01:07:50,079
teaching system of some CD there is a collective and

1051
01:07:50,159 --> 01:07:52,360
gets a challenge to our concept of a series of

1052
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,559
images and technology. We are projecting the visions we need

1053
01:07:55,599 --> 01:08:01,719
to survive our folklore.

1054
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 4: Just as my parents' acceptance of each life was grounded

1055
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:09,719
in their religious beliefs, I realized that my own fascination

1056
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:13,360
might be rooted in a similar impulse for some deep

1057
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:16,359
need for wonder or ah in a world increasingly stripped

1058
01:08:16,359 --> 01:08:16,600
of it.

1059
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:21,640
Speaker 2: I was an adamant atheism.

1060
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:27,199
Speaker 5: One of these experiences over the years were like something

1061
01:08:27,279 --> 01:08:32,039
knocking at my door and I finally opened the door

1062
01:08:32,079 --> 01:08:32,680
a little bit.

1063
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 2: What did that transformation look like? Have you seen anything?

1064
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:42,199
I haven't.

1065
01:08:42,239 --> 01:08:43,560
Speaker 1: No, I loved to, but I haven't.

1066
01:08:45,439 --> 01:09:16,560
Speaker 2: Are you you still may handing