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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday,

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April thirteenth, twenty twenty six, and I'm the host of

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the show, Doctor Kara Santa Maria, And as always, before

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we dive into this week's episode, I want to thank

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those of you who make Talk Nerdy possible. We're still

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going strong using Patreon as our model, and we're still

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able to pledge our support on an episodic basis. That

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may change in the future to a monthly model, but

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as of now, we're sticking with the old model, the

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old the traditional model. So if you're interested in pledging

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your support, all you've got to do is visit patreon

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dot com slash talk Nerdy to learn more. This week's

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Talk patrons include Chuck Blell, David J. E. Smith, Daniel Lang,

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Mary Neva, Will Defrain, David Compton, Brian Holden, Gabbo l

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Rika Hagman, Pasqually Gilatti and Joe Wilkinson, and there's so

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many more of you. I wish I could name all

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of you at the top of the show, but that

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is one of the perks for our top patrons.

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Speaker 2: So thank you all.

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Speaker 1: So so very much. You keep the show going right.

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The show is not a money maker otherwise because I

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don't charge for it. I'm not in any subscription services,

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so other than Patreon, which is you know, it's your

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choice if you want to subscribe. Basically are offsetting that

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price so that folks who can't afford to pay for

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their content because everything is so expensive right now, you know,

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they can still learn something new every week. And that's

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really why I keep making the show. I like learning

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something new every week, and I'm hoping that my curiosity

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in the areas of interest that I have are translating

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at least for some of you. So this week, we've

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got another really interesting episode. So I had the opportunity

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to speak with doctor Aschante m Reese. She's a writer,

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an anthropologist, and an associate professor of African and African

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Diaspora Studies at the University of Texas at Austin, and

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she has a new book out. It's called Gather, Black Food,

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Nourishment and the Art of Togetherness. So, without any further ado,

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here she is doctor Ashante m Reese. A Chante, thank

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you so much for being here today.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for inviting me.

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Speaker 1: I am excited to talk about your newest book. Gather

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black food, nourishment, and the art of togetherness, and even

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before we dive into your super interesting academic history and

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the work that you're doing now, and of course you

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know why you chose to write this book and get

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into it. I have to start at the very top

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saying welcome to the show, fellow Texan. I'm very excited

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to talk to another Texan. You're, of course still there.

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I left Texas a while ago.

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Speaker 3: What part of Texas were you?

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Speaker 4: So?

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Speaker 1: I was I was born and raised in Plano, so

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up in North Texas by Dallas, and you were born

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in Cooper Settlement. I honestly, is that near Austin? Where

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in Texas?

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Speaker 3: You're not? Yeah, you're not going to see it on

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a map, but it's right outide. The town you will

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see on the map is Crockett, Texas. It's about population

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six thousand, nine hundred and that's in East Texas, about

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about two hours north of Houston.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha.

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Speaker 1: So that's a that's a big change, going from a

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real small town like Cooper Settlement all the way to Austin.

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Did you live anywhere in between or was it straight

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from like you know, elementary, middle high school to college.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I lived there until I was eighteen, straight through,

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and then I moved to my first city in college,

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which was Trinity University in San Antonio. So you know,

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I moved to San Antonio where neighborhoods are in terms

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of census tracts are larger than the town I grew

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up in.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that's incredible, And so I am curious then,

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just from a demographic perspective, you know, where you grew up,

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was it a predominantly like first of all, what was

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the population?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's when I was growing up, the population

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held steady around seventy four hundred. There's definitely been some Yeah,

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it's small. When I say small town, it wasn't until

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I was maybe I was in high school when we

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had more than one signal light in the town supplight.

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So now it's a little bit less. Like I said,

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around sixty eight hundred. And actually, for most people think

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about small rural towns as not being that diverse, but

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our town was actually pretty diverse in the sense of

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we were pretty equally split amongst white folks, Black folks,

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Mexican Mexican American. So you know, I ended up going

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to school with a pretty yeah, pretty diverse group of people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of people, especially like.

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Speaker 1: I live in La now, right, so I live in

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a very large metropolitan area. And for comparison, growing up

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in Plano, you know, for folks who haven't heard of Plano,

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it's a suburb of Dallas, and so you know, it's

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not even in the big, big city, but it's a

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suburb with two hundred and fifty thousand people.

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Speaker 2: Like, it's not a small town.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: We had like three five A high schools and it

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was it was big.

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Speaker 1: But I think a lot of people don't realize that

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even in a place like Plano, which was a wealthier

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I was not on that side of town.

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Speaker 2: I was on the east side of town.

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Speaker 1: But a wealthier city, the South is significantly more diverse.

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Now that doesn't mean that it is more integrated. It

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just means that there are a lot more people from

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a lot of different backgrounds. Like I had more kind

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of exposure and experience with people from various backgrounds growing

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up in Texas than I probably well that I probably

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do hear in La at least from a demographic perspective,

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although it doesn't feel like it because La is much

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more I think, you know, community like integrated, community oriented

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in that way. So what was your experience like growing

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up in a small town. Was it pretty segregated or

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was it pretty integrated?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. It's it sounds like a cop out

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for me to say both, but I'll explain. And I

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lived in a town with one elementary, one middle school,

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one high school, so literally we were all going to

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the same schools unless parents chose to put their kids

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in private schools. We did have one private like elementary,

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middle school, or they chose to put them in a

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different nearby town or district. So in that way, I

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was always exposed to my peers and their families and

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what they were doing. One thing that I noticed very

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early and my growing up though, where I did start

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to notice the sort of less integration, was how we

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were tracked. So people in education talk about students being

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tracked early on, and in a small town it's so

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much easier, right because you graduate fifth, sixth grade. Guess what,

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the teachers in middle school, seventh grade, they all know you,

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they're expecting you to come and so if you were

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tracked as like a high achieving student, you were pretty

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set but if you were tracked as lower achieving, et cetera,

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it was hard to get off that track. And that's

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where I noticed some you know, there were racial differences,

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there were class differences. I was always tracked through the

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honors classes and sometimes certainly one of few black students

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in those classes is And then the town itself again

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very small, but the neighborhoods pattern in similar ways as

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large urban areas. Right, They're very racially segregated. So one

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gated community, for example, called Enchanted Estates when I was

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growing up, there was only one black family that lived there,

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and it was you know, upper middle and upper middle

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class and overwhelmingly white, and everyone kind of understood that

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to be, you know, that was what it was, right.

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But again, school, I played sports. That's where I experienced

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a lot of the diversity of my classmates and did

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a lot of extracur curriculars in that way. So there

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were always opportunities. I think what felt really important to

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me looking back and how I grew up, there were

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always opportunities to be with people who were not like

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me mmmmm, And I think we didn't always choose that,

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but yeah, yeah, that's an interesting point.

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Speaker 1: There is that, you know, I felt the same way

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living in a town that was you know, however many

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times over like orders of magnitude larger that I. You know,

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I had a very classic Friday night lights upbringing, even

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though I was a little bit of like an alt

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kind of punk rock kid, but like you know, I

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was a high school cheerleader. I sang and the choir,

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I did all this stuff. And my one of my

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best friends all through elementary middle and into high school

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was a black girl who was also on the cheerleading

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squad with me, and I had an opportunity to spend

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a lot of time with her family and her extended family.

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But I did notice a big change that happened. And

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I'm curious if this is an experience that you had

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it well, or an experience that you've ever kind of

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investigated or studied. Where early on, in elementary, middle school

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and early high school, the uh, there was a lot

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of sort of mixing of classrooms and mixing of like

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social events. And then as we got older, even me

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and my best friend, I remember towards the end of

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high school, we weren't hanging out as much, and she

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was hanging out with you know, mostly her black friends,

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and I was probably in choir and stuff, hanging out

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with mostly a lot of my white friends, and I

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saw that in some ways, almost like this segregation got

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worse as we got older, not the other way around.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's pretty that feels pretty spot on

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in a lot of ways. I will say when I

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was I have this core memory of being in first

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or second grade and my best friend at the time

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was a white student and she was having a party

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and I remember her telling me that I was not

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invited to her birthday party because, yeah, because she was

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not allowed to have black kids in their house.

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Speaker 2: I knew a girl like that too. Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: I had a friend who never had black kids over

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at her house and she was like, my mom's just real,

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you know, in school and I was like, wow, it

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is the nineties, you know.

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Speaker 2: At that point, I was, yeah, it was happening.

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Speaker 3: It was it was It was mind blowing. And you know,

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there was one country club in my town, and I

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had this really interesting experience with some former classmates several

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years after we graduate. I mean we were finished with college,

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et cetera, and I'd been reading something about a segregated prom.

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I think it may have been in Alabama, and I

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was like, you know, these kinds of things happened in

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the town that I grew up in too. You know,

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sometimes the white students would have parties at the country

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club and somehow none of their black or Mexican friends

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ended up on the guest list, those sorts of things.

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But my best friend, I mean my oldest friend, my

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best friend, we've been friends for thirty five plus years now.

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We grew up together. She's a white woman and one

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of the things that I like to and our friendship

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has gone through, as you say, many different phases, but

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we really clung to each other in high school. And

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I think it wasn't until I was we were both

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much older, that I realized that, you know, she was

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sort of getting flack from some people sometimes for not

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just having a black best friend, but really standing up

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in some ways for some of the things that she

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thought were right. And then you know, again, these aren't

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things that she was mentioning to me at the time,

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but talking about them later, it really grew my respect

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for her. She's one of the few friends that I

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had that every every birthday, every gathering I ever went

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to was really an integrated experience. I was at her

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house quite a lot. Her parents, you know, treated me well,

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treated me fairly, still have a good relationship with their parents,

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And so for me, I guess that friendship actually became

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one of the models for how I wanted my friendships

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to look, regardless of you know, what the sort of

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racial makeup of the friend was. But just like, what

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does honesty look like? And friendships across lines of difference?

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How do you talk about difference with each other? So

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we just got a lot of practice. We've had a

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lot of practice over the last plus years doing that,

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and I think.

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Speaker 1: It goes to show I mean, there's so much here

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and obviously we haven't even gotten into you know, food

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and and and that component of togetherness. But I think

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back to you know, I think of myself now as

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somebody who is very oriented to intersectionality, very oriented to

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social justice. You know, I got my PhD in clinical

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psych with a with a concentration in social justice and diversity. I,

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you know, practice therapy from an intersectional and feminist perspective.

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At my mom's poor to reak in and I think

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I learned a lot of amazing lessons growing up in

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a kind of mixed household. And at the same time,

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I look back and I didn't come into my own early.

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Speaker 2: I don't think.

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Speaker 1: I think I was starting to kind of separate from

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from my father and from my Mormon upbringing, and from

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some of the more like you know, regressive and right

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wing policies and politics that I was taught when I

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was very young. I pulled away from that pretty early,

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like as a preteen teenager, but I probably wasn't standing

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up the way I think I would have now, you know,

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I think thinking about your oldest friend, the fact that

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she had that kind of courage and bravery and insight

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and even just like moral stance at a time when

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I mean, that was not the norm, and it's not

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what our parents were always teaching us or our communities

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were always teaching us. I think that that's a real

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testament to her just her character for sure.

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent like she is. You know, I always

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tell her, and I've said this publicly too, that she

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was kind of my first model of someone who is

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an age peer who was willing to stand up for

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things that she believed in, even if it cost her something.

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And she's pretty much been that person since i've known her,

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She's continued to be that person. I'm super inspired by her.

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And one thing I will say that I now recognize

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that she recognized early and still continues one of the

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things that I really cherish about our friendship. We know

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each other in and out, through and through. And she

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also understands that there are some things that I might

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not talk to her about that I might only talk

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to my black friends about. And I used to worry

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about how she felt about it, and I don't know

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how I stopped worrying about it, but there is a

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moment where I realized, Oh, she understands this. She understands

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that there are some experiences that I don't want to

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translate or don't want to have to try to like, yeah,

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give deeper explanation for not that she was asking. But

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I think that, like that's just kind of a natural

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thing sometimes, right, Like you really want someone to understand

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and so you go to great lengths to explain something.

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And she's never made me feel bad for that, and

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that has felt like a gift of our friendship.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's it's an interesting insight to

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have so young. The emotional toll and the cognitive labor

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that it would take, and also just the expectation that's

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often put on individuals to like, you know, almost justify

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their experience to the majority kind of class, which is

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so I mean, I don't know how exhausting it is

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for you, you know, but I like when I say,

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I can only imagine how exhausting and kind of frustrating

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and almost infantilizing it might feel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think, you know, again, growing up with

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the kind of friends that I had, and particularly this friend.

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Then I went to Trinity University that had when I

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stepped on campus there were fifty black students out of

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twenty five hundred, so I was like, whoa geez. Yes,

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So there was this way of always needing to actually

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figure out what my center and what my base is

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and then move from there. And I think one of

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the benefits of that has been I have a dexterity

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around recognizing when and where I want to translate and

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when I don't want to, And particularly the don't when

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I don't want to is when I can recognize someone

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is not engaging in good faith, in which case I

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feel that is not my work, it's not my lane,

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and that's not my work. But by and large, if

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I feel like someone is truly engaging in good faith,

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I don't actually mind doing some of the translation work, right.

311
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But I think, especially in this moment, this current political moment,

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it's hard not to look over your shoulder to wonder,

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like you know what someone's motive is. And I actually

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don't want to be I don't want to live that way, right.

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I want to be in people's lives because I want to.

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I want to be in the lives of people who

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want that without second guessing or really doubting someone's intention.

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And I mean, I don't know, I don't know. I'd

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be curious to see how you feel. But I've just

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noticed how much more, how much more paranoid I can

321
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be sometimes, oh for around engaging people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for good reason. I'm imprudent paranoia, we call it.

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And I think for the listeners of the show, who

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are obviously coming from all different walks of life, one

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of the things that I like to talk about, especially

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to female or gender minority listeners, is that even if

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you are somebody who is in the majority sort of

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racial or ethnic class or like for me, I'm Puerto Rican, sure,

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but I'm white, like, so it doesn't matter because my

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presentation gives me that privilege.

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Speaker 2: But I feel the exact same way when I'm engaging

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with men.

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Speaker 1: About the patriarchy, Like if I do feel like it's

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coming in good faith, like there's a humility and an

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interest in learning, and you know, I just have never

336
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been exposed to the things. I was amazed when I

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found out what it's like to live as a woman.

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And you know, that's when I'm like, sure, yes, I want.

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I want to scream it from the rooftops because I

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want more and more allies. But if it feels like

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you're sea lioning me and my you're really just engaging

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me to try and you know, prove me wrong, or

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to try and like undermine my lived experience, as if

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it's some sort of practice in rhetoric, Like I'm not

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interested in that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's so I don't know. The older I get,

347
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the easier it is to see that more or see

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that someone is I don't want to use the word threatened,

349
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but kind of sees it as their personal mission to

350
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challenge me on what I know, right, yeah, right, or

351
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to challenge whatever expertise I bring to the table. And

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you know and that that way. I'm like, you know,

353
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you can, you can actually have all of that. I don't.

354
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I don't want to. I don't. That's not how I

355
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want to spend my time, and much rather spend my time,

356
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like creating with other people than sparring with someone who's

357
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gonna walk away and have no interest in this anymore

358
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beyond just the conversation.

359
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and if somebody's whole, like I guess goal is

361
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to minimize or undermine or try to I don't even

362
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know what the right word is, but like, uh, delegitimize

363
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not just one's lived experience, but also like you mentioned

364
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your area of expertise, like what that's a that's a

365
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losing proposition from the beginning, and so I'm curious about

366
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that area of expertise. So you're an anthropologist. You're also

367
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Associate Professor of African and African Diaspora Studies at UT

368
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So did you go through an African studies route? Did

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you go through like an anthro department? Was it interdisciplinary

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kind of? How did you follow that academic path?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I went through a PhD program in anthropology at

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American University in VC. I chose that department because they

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had it was two things. One they had an emphasis

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on public anthropology, which was basically for anyone who wanted

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to think about how anthropology could serve the world outside

376
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of academia. And then there was also an an emphasis

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on race, gender, and social justice, which was an actual

378
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track in the PhD program that I chose. And I

379
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did I know anything really about anthropology until I started

380
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researching graduate programs. I wasn't an anthropology major in undergrad

381
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I was history and African American studies. But what I

382
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knew about anthropology was that it had this method you

383
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know that we talk about as ethnography and field work,

384
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where you really learn about people and their customs and

385
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their cultures by being with them. And I was very

386
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intrigued by that. So there's some interviewing, there's other things,

387
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but the hallmark of cultural anthropology has for a long

388
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time been doing at least a year of field work

389
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in a community, and that's how you learn the community.

390
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And so that's what drew me to anthropology in general.

391
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And then yeah, the public focus and the race gender,

392
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social justice focus made American the perfect place for me.

393
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Speaker 2: Oh I love that.

394
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Speaker 1: I love that both of our PhD programs offered us

395
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an opportunity to Like at my school was called a concentration.

396
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At your school, it was maybe a track, but like

397
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to have specialized training and experience in ours was called

398
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social justice and diversity.

399
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Speaker 2: Yours was what race, gender and.

400
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Speaker 3: Social justice justice.

401
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Speaker 2: Ye I love that, I mean, how I mean?

402
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Speaker 1: That's also one of the great things about being involved

403
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in these sort of like human studies like psychology and sociology,

404
00:23:24,559 --> 00:23:28,440
is that there are huge swaths of the of academia

405
00:23:28,519 --> 00:23:30,799
that are focused on that, which is good because there's

406
00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:34,119
also a lot of really disgusting history in our fields

407
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that is the exact opposite, that's super.

408
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Speaker 2: Colonial and awful.

409
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Speaker 1: But it does remind me a little bit coming back

410
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to sort of the topic of your book itself, and

411
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what we sort of started talking about was our experiences

412
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in Texas high schools.

413
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Speaker 2: Beverly Tatum and her book.

414
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Speaker 1: Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?

415
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Which I'm always quoting this book because I think it

416
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was really informative and instrumental for me, especially her her

417
00:24:01,599 --> 00:24:04,640
metaphor for the moving sidewalk and like what it takes

418
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,000
to work in anti racist spaces. But I noticed that,

419
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you know, and I don't want to speak for you.

420
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,880
I'm actually curious about your experience. But my assumption, my guess,

421
00:24:14,519 --> 00:24:17,480
is that you have plenty of opportunities throughout your life

422
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to exist in predominantly white spaces, whereas white folks have opportunities,

423
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but I don't think they often seize them, or you know,

424
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go out of their way to try to experience and

425
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exist black spaces.

426
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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's fun on and I love that

427
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,240
you brought up doctor Beverly Tatum shout out to film

428
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,799
in college, which is where I taught before I came to.

429
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Speaker 2: Ut Oh, no way cool.

430
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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, for those who are listening, historically black college

431
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:57,680
for women, really incredible experience there. Yeah, I've had plenty

432
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of opportunities to exist in predomin white spaces. You know.

433
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,960
I go back to that moment that I realized when

434
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:13,319
I got to Trinity in our our opening sort of convocation,

435
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I'm looking around the auditorium. There's six hundred and ninety

436
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one students and I could count how many of them

437
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were black, and there were eight of us. And it

438
00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:25,880
was a moment where I was like, what did I

439
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,839
get myself into? What is happening here? How am I

440
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,279
gonna be here? And I had We were all assigned

441
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to small groups, and my small group was led by

442
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,000
a white woman and her name was Lindy, and I

443
00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:43,200
really really liked her. A small group of eight people,

444
00:25:43,599 --> 00:25:45,599
we sat in a circle. One day, she asked us

445
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,039
what everyone's fears were, and I voiced I was afraid

446
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that people were not going to want to get to

447
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,400
know me, that they had already made assumptions about who

448
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,480
I was and how I got there. And someone in

449
00:25:59,519 --> 00:26:01,720
the group was so offended that I had said that,

450
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and I was having this moment where I was like,

451
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oh my god, I really chose the wrong place. And

452
00:26:07,799 --> 00:26:12,119
after Lyndy was like, you know, I actually I really

453
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,759
do want to get to know you. And she said

454
00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:19,640
something like it kind of like maybe in a very

455
00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:23,160
kind of sitcoming way, but she said something like, actually,

456
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:24,920
I don't have that many black friends, and so I

457
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,200
probably do have stereotypes, but I would like to get

458
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,039
to know you. And you know, when Lindy and I

459
00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:32,480
started doing we started running together every morning. That is

460
00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:35,440
how we got to know each other at that time.

461
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And so all of that to say that, like, yeah,

462
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,000
there are these moments. And then there are also these

463
00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:43,799
decision points too, not just for me, but for other

464
00:26:43,839 --> 00:26:46,359
people who were in the room with me, around how

465
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:53,440
we're going to engage with each other and the converse, like, yeah,

466
00:26:53,559 --> 00:26:55,960
it's what I like to do when I put my

467
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,240
anthropological hat on. One of the things that I often

468
00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:03,680
say to people is white folks, many white folks really

469
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,160
don't it's I don't know if it's not the opportunity

470
00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:11,319
or a choice, but really don't have that many experiences

471
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,559
with black communities writ large, not just individuals, where they're

472
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,640
not already assessing lack or something being wrong.

473
00:27:20,519 --> 00:27:25,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, that is the massive bias going in

474
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,519
or if they even go in, that is the bible,

475
00:27:28,559 --> 00:27:31,039
and often that is why they don't go in is

476
00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:32,680
because that bias exists.

477
00:27:33,559 --> 00:27:37,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so that already shapes the whole experience, right,

478
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,240
That already puts one person or set of experiences over

479
00:27:42,319 --> 00:27:45,039
the other. And then I think that there are other

480
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:50,640
moments where I have a really diverse group of friends

481
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,400
in general and specifically in Austin, which is something that

482
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,559
I really love. And going back to again that example

483
00:27:59,599 --> 00:28:03,000
that Live is my best friend carved out for me,

484
00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:05,880
I think even within these groups, we really have tried

485
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,839
to understand like how and when we can show up

486
00:28:09,839 --> 00:28:13,279
for each other and when we can't, and why that's okay,

487
00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:17,000
because sometimes we are carving out space for certain experiences.

488
00:28:17,039 --> 00:28:19,519
Like I'm a queer black woman who lives in Austin.

489
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,599
I very rarely run across other queer black women in Austin,

490
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,680
And when I do, I'm like, can we just create

491
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,920
a little COVID so we can protect some of our

492
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,880
experience with each other? Right? And and so sometimes we

493
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,319
do that. There is there are moments where I'm just

494
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,960
gathering with other other queer women here, which is just

495
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,839
a way of saying that I know sometimes white folks

496
00:28:41,839 --> 00:28:45,440
may be experience it as gatekeeping or being kept out,

497
00:28:46,079 --> 00:28:48,160
and sure that's a part of it. But like I

498
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,319
think I like to think about it, is sometimes people

499
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,799
are creating their affinity groups or whatever based on what

500
00:28:54,799 --> 00:28:57,319
they need in the moment. And that's not even about

501
00:28:57,359 --> 00:29:00,680
the other people who are not included. It's really about like,

502
00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:03,160
what do we need in this moment? And sometimes what

503
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,680
we need is, yeah, to gather in a space where

504
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:10,680
it's just you know, a deep eggshel you know, we're

505
00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:14,599
lamenting right, Like, yes, I tell people all the time,

506
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,880
moving to Austin is the most heterosexual group of friends

507
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,680
I've had in a very long time.

508
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: And you're from a real small town, so that's saying something.

509
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 3: It's been a long time. It's been a long time.

510
00:29:29,759 --> 00:29:35,039
And I and sometimes I look, I'm looking around, I'm like, wow, Okay,

511
00:29:35,119 --> 00:29:37,440
I love this people. I love this group of friends.

512
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: And yeah, but also come visit us out here in

513
00:29:41,559 --> 00:29:41,759
l A.

514
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, exactly exactly and so and no one gets

515
00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:48,079
I don't think so. I mean, maybe people do, but

516
00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:50,720
I don't think so. No one really gets offended by that.

517
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:56,400
You know, they understand analyzes of power, they understand.

518
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: Well that's the point, right saying yeah, yeah, like and

519
00:29:59,279 --> 00:30:01,200
that right there, I think is such an important thing

520
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,880
that bears like, you know, highlighting, especially for any listeners

521
00:30:05,079 --> 00:30:07,559
who might still be holding on to any of I mean,

522
00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:09,319
dare I say, I don't you know, I don't want

523
00:30:09,319 --> 00:30:12,200
to whatever, but like bigoted notions that like, you know,

524
00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:16,519
people stay segregated because they want because like likes like

525
00:30:16,599 --> 00:30:19,240
and because you know, it's just and it's the same

526
00:30:19,279 --> 00:30:21,400
reason that white people don't want to enter black spaces.

527
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:22,799
Speaker 2: Is the reason that black people don't want to enter

528
00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:24,359
white spaces. No, it is not.

529
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,519
Speaker 1: It is not the same reason. The reason that you know,

530
00:30:28,079 --> 00:30:30,680
black folks sometimes need to stay together and not enter

531
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,680
those white spaces is is the same reason that women

532
00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:38,359
sometimes don't want to enter male spaces. It's a safety issue.

533
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,880
It's a you know, my experience, and I don't want

534
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,279
to have to explain myself to you. And also I

535
00:30:43,319 --> 00:30:45,799
don't want to be on guard this whole time. I

536
00:30:45,839 --> 00:30:48,680
need to just relax. And when men don't want to

537
00:30:48,799 --> 00:30:51,200
enter female spaces or white people don't want to enter

538
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,400
black spaces, it's a completely different reasoning. It's a it's

539
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,960
a because the power differential is there, and I think

540
00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:00,839
we didn't ignore that.

541
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 3: No, I mean a really good example of this small example.

542
00:31:05,279 --> 00:31:10,359
I'm a huge women's basketball fan and Austin has a

543
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,279
women's sports bar, and there was this whole dialogue and

544
00:31:14,279 --> 00:31:17,480
I think it was a really useful dialogue around Okay,

545
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,480
when we say women's sports bar, is this are we

546
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,519
trying to create a space that is for women to

547
00:31:23,599 --> 00:31:28,240
come watch sports or is it about we're projecting all

548
00:31:28,279 --> 00:31:32,559
of the women's sports games, right, and they're related, But

549
00:31:32,599 --> 00:31:36,759
they're slightly different. And I was at the sports I

550
00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:39,839
love going there, and I was there maybe I guess

551
00:31:39,839 --> 00:31:41,480
just maybe a couple months ago, I was watching some

552
00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:45,599
college basketball and a group of men came in and

553
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,680
they wanted to watch I don't know. It may have

554
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,880
been like a ut longhorned football game or something. It

555
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,839
was point being it was some kind of sport that

556
00:31:55,039 --> 00:31:58,799
was not women's sports. And they came in and they

557
00:31:58,839 --> 00:32:04,119
were having such a hard time with the idea that

558
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,559
the game wasn't already on and that they wouldn't just

559
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,839
switch the TV to this game. And I heard I

560
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,559
overheard someone say to them, you know, there are thousands

561
00:32:16,559 --> 00:32:19,519
of bars you can go to in this city, and

562
00:32:20,319 --> 00:32:23,200
probably overwhelmingly most of them are going to have this

563
00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:25,839
game on that you want to watch. And we've got

564
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,839
one spot that has openly expressed a commitment to women's sports,

565
00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:33,319
and you want to come here. Why is that? Like,

566
00:32:33,359 --> 00:32:35,759
I actually want you to interrogate why. And I just

567
00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:38,039
want to stand on top of the table and collap

568
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,279
for that person because she was so so calm in

569
00:32:42,319 --> 00:32:46,359
the explanation, very calm, and I think generous and maybe

570
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,599
too generous in some way. But you know eventually they left,

571
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,720
but I think that's just like you know what I'm saying,

572
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,480
like you're welcome to stay here and watch some basketball

573
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:03,759
with us. But it was just moment of realization that sometimes,

574
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,759
you know, people are not interested in just having what

575
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,720
they want. Sometimes people are interested in you not having

576
00:33:10,759 --> 00:33:11,880
what it is that you want.

577
00:33:12,599 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: Yes, completely because and I don't know if it comes

578
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,200
from a place of like, if you have what you want, your.

579
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,519
Speaker 2: Way of life might start to take.

580
00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:24,279
Speaker 1: Over and threaten my power. I mean, I have to

581
00:33:24,319 --> 00:33:26,880
assume that that's a part of it. But it's you know,

582
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,799
and again, like it's similar to why queer folks like

583
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,359
to hang out in queer spaces sometimes. And it's not

584
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,319
that they're avoiding hetero you know, cis had normative spaces

585
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,039
because they're always in those two. It's that there's a

586
00:33:40,359 --> 00:33:42,599
there's a letting down of the guard that you can

587
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,440
have and a a camaraderie with folks where yeah, again,

588
00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:49,480
like the cognitive labor isn't there.

589
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, under And I think for for for me, using

590
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,079
the queer example, if I'm out and about, most people

591
00:33:58,119 --> 00:34:02,160
will read me as heterosexual, except other lesbians, because I

592
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,480
think they're like no, you're one of us. But I think,

593
00:34:04,599 --> 00:34:09,559
like you know, I am been presenting people kind of

594
00:34:09,599 --> 00:34:11,519
just don't think about it. And I think there's also

595
00:34:11,599 --> 00:34:16,599
a safety issue, not just the comfort issue, because often,

596
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,679
not always, but often men really struggle with rejection. And

597
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:27,159
I can be as kind as I am, and there

598
00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:32,239
are many moments where people men are very persistent and

599
00:34:32,519 --> 00:34:34,679
no matter what I say, I can say, you know,

600
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,320
I'm not interested in men. I'm a lesbian. I can

601
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,559
say all these things and it doesn't matter. And so

602
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,599
then it also becomes an issue of like harassment and

603
00:34:42,599 --> 00:34:46,119
safety and just wanting to exist in public without being

604
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:52,280
the object of someone's desire, right, Yeah, and yeah, so.

605
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: I think even straight women can kind of attest to

606
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,360
wanting that. But that's why straight women love hanging out

607
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,400
at lesbian very often. I see that a lot, and

608
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,320
like myself, as you know, I also identify as queer,

609
00:35:05,559 --> 00:35:10,360
and my flavor is confusing to a lot of people

610
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,280
because I'm a queer woman who is with a queer man.

611
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,000
But we are both very open and we you know,

612
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:25,760
explore different kind of relationship structures like ethical non monogamy,

613
00:35:26,159 --> 00:35:28,480
and so one thing that I like about existing in

614
00:35:28,559 --> 00:35:31,280
queer spaces too, is that there's like almost an implicit

615
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,199
understanding of non traditional relationship structures. And I don't have

616
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:40,480
to constantly convince people, or explain to people or argue

617
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,719
a position when it's like what do you care how

618
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,159
I live my life? I don't have to justify my

619
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,239
lifestyle to you. But when I exist in queer spaces,

620
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,480
I feel like there's just a like, yeah, cool, whatever

621
00:35:52,599 --> 00:35:55,719
works for you, all are welcome mentality that you don't

622
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,519
always have in these like more cis heat spaces.

623
00:35:59,119 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 3: I think that's I think that's spot on. I think

624
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,199
that's right. And again that level of translating, like we

625
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:10,159
all you know, power works such that some people never

626
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,599
have to translate their lives of or it is assumed

627
00:36:14,599 --> 00:36:17,920
to be the standard. And I think I would like

628
00:36:18,039 --> 00:36:21,440
to live in a world where I mean, I think

629
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,800
curiosity is one of the one of the sort of

630
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,920
magic tricks that we have in this life, Like curiosity

631
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,800
can be a lever that changes a number of things

632
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,440
versus you know, the assumptions that we make about people.

633
00:36:36,079 --> 00:36:38,239
And I would like to live in a world where

634
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:43,920
we are more curious about other people's experiences as being

635
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,159
equally valid as our own.

636
00:36:48,119 --> 00:36:49,039
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

637
00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 1: I think it's also why, and of course it's it's

638
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,519
interesting I bring this up because it's also a very

639
00:36:53,519 --> 00:36:56,400
privileged position to be in. But it's why I love

640
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:58,599
international travel.

641
00:36:58,679 --> 00:36:59,199
Speaker 2: And I'm not.

642
00:36:59,119 --> 00:37:02,679
Speaker 1: Talking going to, you know, a resort that's owned by

643
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,159
an American company on international soil. I'm talking about going

644
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,039
into a city, experiencing that city, eating the food, trying

645
00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:13,119
to navigate on foot in you know, an Asian country

646
00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:16,480
or an African country. I've had a lot of really

647
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:22,239
life changing experiences where I was thrust into a place where,

648
00:37:22,559 --> 00:37:25,679
you know, nobody looked like me, nobody sounded like me,

649
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,920
and they were not going to bend to me. I

650
00:37:29,039 --> 00:37:32,960
had to adapt to that you know structure, and I

651
00:37:33,079 --> 00:37:36,519
learned so much and I have such an not just

652
00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:39,239
an appreciation. Now I feel like my world is bigger.

653
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,079
Like I'm like, oh, you've never eaten this food.

654
00:37:41,079 --> 00:37:42,119
Speaker 2: Oh my god. You have to try.

655
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: Yes, there's all these things that come along with that,

656
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:47,760
but you often can't have it if you stay in

657
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:48,320
your bubble.

658
00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 3: I think that's right. I think that's absolutely right. I

659
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:58,880
am equally grateful and uncomfortable when I go to places

660
00:37:59,199 --> 00:38:03,239
that are not us centric, right, Like, I'm grateful because

661
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,960
for you exactly what you said, you expand so many things,

662
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,679
your your palette, your experiences, your understanding of the world.

663
00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:16,199
And then I'm uncomfortable because that is when I mostly remember,

664
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,960
like as much as I might experience certain certain forms

665
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,960
of discrimination in the US, like the power of this

666
00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:28,400
US passport still gives me an incredible amount of privilege

667
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:29,039
around the world.

668
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 2: Right, maybe not for long, but yeah, maybe not for long.

669
00:38:34,559 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 3: It's so true, so true. Who we kind of deserve it,

670
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:45,039
but it just it reminds me to like in the

671
00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:49,760
ways that I want, you know, people who are highly

672
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,840
privileged in one way or another to de center themselves

673
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,320
at home. I have to practice that too, you know,

674
00:38:57,599 --> 00:38:59,840
I practiced. I practiced it in the US in certain

675
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,880
I have certain economic privilege, education privilege. I have certain

676
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,719
privileges here and I have to be mindful of them.

677
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:11,519
But when I'm traveling abroad, I'm definitely aware of like

678
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,159
certain kinds of privileges and assumptions that I am carrying with.

679
00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:19,079
Speaker 1: Me absolutely, And I mean I think in a lot

680
00:39:19,119 --> 00:39:21,320
of ways too. That is what kind of maintaining an

681
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,599
intersectional perspective is about. Is recognizing the areas where we

682
00:39:25,679 --> 00:39:28,800
have this kind of privilege, the areas where we really

683
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,920
really don't, and the areas where it depends. In some

684
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,239
it depends sometimes on the context whether even those privileges

685
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,480
are recognized or not. Like, probably you have this experience

686
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,119
as well, But I work in a large hospital system

687
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,760
now as a clinical psychologist, and it is not uncommon

688
00:39:50,039 --> 00:39:52,199
that I will be referred to by my first name

689
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,880
and not my title doctor Santa Maria, whereas you know,

690
00:39:57,039 --> 00:40:00,199
men may not have that same experience. And yeah, I

691
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,440
have the privilege of having a PhD and of being

692
00:40:02,519 --> 00:40:05,440
a doctor, and when that authority is there, people do

693
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,920
look at me differently and talk to me differently. But

694
00:40:08,119 --> 00:40:13,360
even amongst those circles, that respect isn't always seen. And

695
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,159
as a professor, I can only imagine that you are

696
00:40:16,199 --> 00:40:19,119
called miss a lot more often than you are called doctor,

697
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,960
which is infuriating to me when that happened.

698
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,039
Speaker 3: It is it is that, And what I experience more

699
00:40:27,119 --> 00:40:33,760
often is the mixed bag of colleagues who allow students

700
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:39,320
to call them by their first names, and then how

701
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,960
students might internalize that as like, Okay, this is kind

702
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,039
of a blanket for everyone, So all of my classes.

703
00:40:46,079 --> 00:40:50,840
Every semester I start, I do an explicit little thing

704
00:40:51,039 --> 00:40:53,639
around this is how you can address me. You had

705
00:40:53,679 --> 00:40:57,039
these options, Professor Reese or doctor Reese. Those are the

706
00:40:57,079 --> 00:41:01,840
only two options that you have, and that came from, Yeah,

707
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,960
from the exact kinds of experiences that you that you mentioned.

708
00:41:07,159 --> 00:41:11,559
And it feels especially important. It feels important. It's always

709
00:41:11,559 --> 00:41:14,119
felt important to me. It feels especially important in this

710
00:41:14,159 --> 00:41:19,360
moment though, of just rising anti intellectualism, this moment where

711
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,000
black women in particular, like so much of the backlash

712
00:41:23,039 --> 00:41:27,400
that is happening in politics. I heard Trusty mc millan

713
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,719
say this earlier, like maybe a couple of weeks ago,

714
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:32,599
and I think she's so true that a lot of

715
00:41:32,599 --> 00:41:37,199
the backlash that is experienced people we're experiencing politically is

716
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:43,440
connected to people wanting to punish successful black women who

717
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,039
have had had the audacity to go and get the

718
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:52,000
multiple degrees to be in positions of power or authority.

719
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 5: Right Like, it doesn't matter what people think you know

720
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:01,199
DEI is or was and what it actually is, No,

721
00:42:01,199 --> 00:42:02,280
none of that matters.

722
00:42:02,639 --> 00:42:06,199
Speaker 3: All that matters is there's been this response of you

723
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,800
got something you did not deserve it doesn't matter that

724
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,679
you did all of this, you can, doesn't matter that

725
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,760
you Yeah, it does not matter at all. And so

726
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:20,079
I've become even more boundaried around not only how I

727
00:42:20,119 --> 00:42:26,119
am addressed, but how to engage in conversations right like,

728
00:42:26,119 --> 00:42:28,960
because of course you you probably know this from graduate school,

729
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:33,159
where especially with graduate students, sometimes there can be a

730
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,719
tendency to just be a lot more casual because you

731
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,800
are training these you're training students, but they're going to

732
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,840
be your colleagues one day. And I have always taken

733
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,280
the position, but you're my student. Now when you become

734
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,840
my colleague, we can have a different kind of relationship

735
00:42:49,199 --> 00:42:51,239
because it's a slippery slope.

736
00:42:51,559 --> 00:42:56,119
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, And I have to just like highlight once

737
00:42:56,199 --> 00:43:00,280
again and reiterate the point that you made about so

738
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:05,679
many people seeing, you know, a black woman in a

739
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,599
position of you know, authority or of power and feeling

740
00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:12,119
threatened by that. And I think a lot of times

741
00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:14,639
when people say, yeah, but why would that be threatening?

742
00:43:14,679 --> 00:43:17,800
Like what's underneath that? How do we go even deeper?

743
00:43:18,199 --> 00:43:21,440
And I have a very dear friend who very eloquently

744
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,360
put at one time when we were, you know, talking

745
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,119
about race relations in this country, and she was saying, like,

746
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,320
it's threatening to somebody who had a built in privilege

747
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,480
that they never had to be exceptional because by virtue

748
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,599
of who they were, they were treated as exceptional. Now

749
00:43:37,679 --> 00:43:42,559
all of a sudden, they're experiencing, you know, a middle

750
00:43:42,559 --> 00:43:45,519
class white man is experiencing the fact that he has

751
00:43:45,599 --> 00:43:53,880
to work hard to have the whatever it is, the feedback,

752
00:43:54,079 --> 00:43:58,000
the promotion, the whatever, in order to like he is

753
00:43:58,079 --> 00:44:01,519
finally experiencing even just a shread of what it has

754
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:03,920
felt like to be a person of color, or a

755
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,079
woman or an you know, gender minority throughout all of

756
00:44:07,159 --> 00:44:11,159
human history. Because before you could just show up to

757
00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:13,719
your factory job and you would automatically have your pension,

758
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,199
and you could be a mediocre worker, and you could

759
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,000
be you know, just showing up was enough. And now

760
00:44:20,039 --> 00:44:24,039
it's like, no, because all of these people who let's

761
00:44:24,039 --> 00:44:27,440
be honest here, not only do you deserve your job

762
00:44:27,559 --> 00:44:30,679
entitle you deserve it almost more because it was that

763
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,559
much harder for you to get where you are. Like

764
00:44:33,639 --> 00:44:35,920
that's the part that I think a lot of people forget.

765
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,480
There were a million things in the way that would

766
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,280
have made it much easier for you to quit and

767
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:42,880
walk away.

768
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I also think that there's this kind

769
00:44:46,559 --> 00:44:55,000
of idea in some people's imagination that the others, however

770
00:44:55,039 --> 00:44:58,119
you define others, are out to get them.

771
00:44:58,679 --> 00:45:04,519
Speaker 1: I mean, reinforced by their political ideology for sure.

772
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,079
Speaker 3: And it's funny to be because I you know, my

773
00:45:09,199 --> 00:45:13,960
response to that is I wasn't thinking about you, and

774
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:18,960
I'm actually very rarely thinking about you. I am to

775
00:45:19,159 --> 00:45:22,719
do my best work in the world, and I want

776
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,360
other people to be doing their best work in the world,

777
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,400
whatever that means to them. But like there's no, there's

778
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,320
no competition here, like I am actually not. This is

779
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,800
I'm not trying to replace you.

780
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 2: No, and your role do my work?

781
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, your role as a professor of African and African

782
00:45:40,559 --> 00:45:43,639
diaspora studies at UT I don't think.

783
00:45:43,559 --> 00:45:46,679
Speaker 2: You stole that job from a mediocre white man.

784
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,599
Speaker 3: Sure, but you know, I live in a state that

785
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,760
is really contesting the kind of department I work in

786
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,760
and the work that I do, because you know, beyond

787
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,840
the idea that yeah, I didn't see a job from someone,

788
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,639
But then this thing around, but is this real research?

789
00:46:09,039 --> 00:46:12,599
Is this real field of study? Like this kind of questioning,

790
00:46:12,639 --> 00:46:15,360
which is alm I was gonna say almost insulting, but

791
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:20,559
it actually just is insulting. You know that that happens too,

792
00:46:21,039 --> 00:46:26,199
And I just, you know, I think one of the

793
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,519
things that is something I believe, it's something that comes

794
00:46:29,559 --> 00:46:35,280
out and gather, which is there is no way we

795
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:40,639
as a human species make it without interdependence. And we've

796
00:46:40,679 --> 00:46:43,639
got to look for models of where that's happening and

797
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:48,199
put and specifically look for how people are working across

798
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:53,320
lines of difference, even intercommunally, right, Like, I'm part of

799
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,159
so many different groups of black folks, and we still

800
00:46:56,159 --> 00:46:58,960
got work through our differences with each other, and you know,

801
00:46:59,079 --> 00:47:03,559
even within group. And so I think that's the thing

802
00:47:03,559 --> 00:47:07,920
that gets me sometimes around the backlash where I'm like,

803
00:47:09,039 --> 00:47:11,039
I know you hate this and you don't want to

804
00:47:11,079 --> 00:47:15,840
hear it, but like, my existence and your existence are

805
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,920
bound up together, buddy, So we've got to, yeah, make

806
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:19,519
this work.

807
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,679
Speaker 1: And also even just identity, you know, I would go

808
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,639
even beyond that. I remember having a professor named Brian

809
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,679
Lowry on the show who is a psychologist who studies

810
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,159
like identity and intersubjectivity and the fact that you know,

811
00:47:35,159 --> 00:47:41,159
our concept of self is interdependent, like we aren't even

812
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:47,880
beings without a sort of comparison and an interaction with

813
00:47:48,119 --> 00:47:52,079
other beings around us. There's no such thing as the

814
00:47:52,159 --> 00:47:55,360
self if not for other And we develop that as

815
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,719
we grow up in society. And of course, how do

816
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,679
we do that in a way that is as sort

817
00:48:01,679 --> 00:48:08,559
of uh contributory to civic engagement, that is, as uh

818
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:15,519
contributory to kindness and empathy and caretaking and community. Then

819
00:48:15,599 --> 00:48:19,280
to just exist with other people. And that's that's what

820
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,840
maybe we should get into now, is this transition to

821
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:29,960
gather to this idea of togetherness, especially togetherness around food,

822
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,400
around uh community, communal care. I guess we could say,

823
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,519
talk to me about how these topics started to come

824
00:48:39,679 --> 00:48:44,360
up for you as a researcher and how they you know,

825
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,559
have become central to your academic studies.

826
00:48:49,079 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, you know, research wise, my focus from the

827
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:58,760
beginning has been on race and racism in the food system,

828
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,880
particularly urban foods systems, and so I spent years doing

829
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:08,679
research in Washington, DC examining how food access was patterned

830
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,280
along the same lines as racial segregation in DC, which

831
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,360
is actually true for most cities, LA included. Most major

832
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,199
cities have similar problems, and so I spent a lot

833
00:49:21,199 --> 00:49:24,719
of time understanding those problems, but also trying to understand

834
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:30,239
how DC residents were navigating the unequal food system. And

835
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,039
so where that research left off is kind of where

836
00:49:34,159 --> 00:49:39,400
Gather begins, which is, I feel like we've done a

837
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,480
lot of diagnosing of the problems in our current food system,

838
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,880
and I wanted to think about, but how are people

839
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,719
gathering around food and using food as a point of

840
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,280
connection and is there something we can learn from that

841
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,199
that we might scale up in terms of how we

842
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:05,480
create justice around food. So that's really where it came from.

843
00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:09,320
I have been working in and around the food justice

844
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,559
movement for probably about fifteen years now. Movement I would

845
00:50:12,599 --> 00:50:14,960
say movements plural, because I do think that there are

846
00:50:15,159 --> 00:50:20,159
certainly different philosophies around food justice. But one of the

847
00:50:20,199 --> 00:50:23,440
things that I was always curious about and remain curious about,

848
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,960
is okay, but how do we sort of bring more

849
00:50:27,079 --> 00:50:31,320
people into the fold who aren't connected to social movements,

850
00:50:31,599 --> 00:50:35,239
who maybe aren't the ones who want to, you know,

851
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,079
show up at the meetings, et cetera, but may have

852
00:50:38,159 --> 00:50:41,920
something valuable to offer. And so Gather is also a

853
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,039
testament to that for looking at what everyday regular people

854
00:50:46,119 --> 00:50:50,559
are doing, how they're enacting certain values that I think

855
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,719
are important for us who are still trying to tackle

856
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,760
this question of creating a more equitable food world.

857
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,320
Speaker 1: And so I'm curious, like, obviously we all got to eat, right,

858
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,159
Like it's one of those fundamental requirements to exist. Is

859
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,519
we think about food, water, and shelter, And obviously there

860
00:51:09,599 --> 00:51:13,599
are whole movements and whole areas of research concerning with

861
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,400
how do we have equitable access to housing, how do

862
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,639
we have equitable access to water?

863
00:51:19,559 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 3: Food?

864
00:51:20,159 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: Though is I think in some ways it's interesting because

865
00:51:25,039 --> 00:51:29,400
it does have this like massive social component tied to it,

866
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:33,079
and like a cultural component, like you know, we eat

867
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,599
different foods based on where we come from. And then

868
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:37,719
there's like ways that we eat food, Like I love

869
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,840
going out for Chinese hot pot, which is like a

870
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,239
very millial way to eat, and I go to this

871
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,079
one well hawk in restaurant that I love that's all

872
00:51:46,119 --> 00:51:48,679
family style, and then there's other I don't know, there's

873
00:51:48,679 --> 00:51:52,079
like buffets, and there's a million different ways to barbecue. Obviously,

874
00:51:52,159 --> 00:51:53,920
group and Texas.

875
00:51:53,679 --> 00:51:54,280
Speaker 2: Tex mex.

876
00:51:54,679 --> 00:51:57,159
Speaker 1: There's a million different ways that we eat food that

877
00:51:57,199 --> 00:52:03,880
goes beyond the ingredients or the processing of the food.

878
00:52:04,039 --> 00:52:07,480
But it does kind of start with maybe start is

879
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,760
a wrong component, but part of your research when it

880
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,480
comes to food equity and food justice does come down

881
00:52:13,519 --> 00:52:17,840
to like farming practices and just access to food, right.

882
00:52:18,679 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's been a huge part of it. Farming practices,

883
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,599
access to food, distribution of food. You know, sometimes we

884
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:31,119
forget that supermarkets have not always been a part of

885
00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:35,400
our food systems. Actually, but there's sort of a more

886
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:41,000
modern addition to how and where we acquire food, food waste.

887
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:46,199
We waste a ton of food in this country, and

888
00:52:46,679 --> 00:52:49,559
that not just on the individual level, but on the

889
00:52:49,599 --> 00:52:53,400
corporate on corporate levels as well. So all of those

890
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:58,079
things are I won't say all of those things are

891
00:52:58,119 --> 00:53:02,639
things beyond the individual consumer, right. A lot of this

892
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,880
has to do with what are our land use policies.

893
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,800
You know, for example, farmers, there are many farmers who

894
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:19,639
themselves are food insecure because farming as a profession isn't

895
00:53:19,679 --> 00:53:24,079
something that is highly valued in this country unless it

896
00:53:24,159 --> 00:53:30,679
is tied to subsidies for things like soy and corn

897
00:53:32,159 --> 00:53:34,800
and but but those are things that we're producing to

898
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:39,280
feed people on a regular basis, right, So I think

899
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,039
there's there's that part of it. So that and all

900
00:53:43,039 --> 00:53:46,519
of that is political, but I think there's a reason why,

901
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,360
by and large, many people, I would venture to say

902
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:55,199
most people aren't thinking about that when they go to

903
00:53:55,239 --> 00:54:00,840
the grocery store. They're not thinking about who picked this produce,

904
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,599
how much are they being paid, what is their housing?

905
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,519
Like are they safe? When you know we don't many

906
00:54:07,519 --> 00:54:10,400
of us don't think about those those things, right, There's

907
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:12,639
like and there's good reasons for that, I think, in

908
00:54:12,679 --> 00:54:16,960
the sense of the system isn't designed for us to

909
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:21,920
think that way, yep, right, And so then that also

910
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:28,320
creates a hierarchy of like who not just what is valuable,

911
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:32,119
but who is valuable and who we should be thinking

912
00:54:32,119 --> 00:54:35,159
about and taking care of. The closest we got to

913
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,039
this was during the pandemic. I'm sure you remember, like

914
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:40,920
there are people were freaking out about what wasn't in

915
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:45,159
the grocery stores. And then there's this huge interest interest

916
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:49,159
in gardening and farming spiked so much because of people's

917
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,239
anxieties and worries about what our food system was going

918
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,880
to look like. And I'm just kind of watching this

919
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:59,679
and I never I had never well, I hadn't up

920
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:03,880
into that point seeing anything in my career where people

921
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:07,639
were really starting to connect the dots between supply chained

922
00:55:07,639 --> 00:55:12,440
failures and how the food system is built itself. And

923
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,920
it was just so fascinating to me to watch that.

924
00:55:16,039 --> 00:55:18,800
And on the other side of that were people who

925
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,199
were doing things like yes, I will share my seeds

926
00:55:22,199 --> 00:55:25,639
with you, or I have these other starter plants that

927
00:55:25,679 --> 00:55:28,000
I can share with you. There are also these ways

928
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:34,559
that people were leaning into communal practices that were really

929
00:55:34,559 --> 00:55:35,480
intriguing to me.

930
00:55:36,679 --> 00:55:40,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting to think about. Like you know, you

931
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:45,360
mentioned earlier that people are sometimes surprised. But here in

932
00:55:45,519 --> 00:55:47,559
La or at least I should say, in California, more

933
00:55:47,599 --> 00:55:51,320
like in the Central Valley. I think it's maybe it's

934
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,039
a well established fact, maybe it's not well known that

935
00:55:54,079 --> 00:55:56,719
You're right, some of the most food insecure people in

936
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:00,239
our state are the people who are actually produced using

937
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,639
our food, picking our food, our food.

938
00:56:04,599 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

939
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a huge I mean it's a huge issue

940
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:11,800
here and so and at the same time, I think

941
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,239
that we are constantly bombarded because we live in this

942
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:19,599
like deeply capitalist society we are that's like full of

943
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:23,920
messaging and not just social media, but like advertising and

944
00:56:24,119 --> 00:56:28,719
so much like persuasion science, that we're constantly bombarded with

945
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,800
like too many options, and then very often it feels

946
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,440
like we have zero options because well, I can only

947
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:38,840
afford to buy the cheapest thing, and the cheapest thing

948
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,119
might be like the least ethical thing in order to

949
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,760
you know, and so, and there's all this personal responsibility

950
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,559
placed on people to make decisions and to vote with

951
00:56:49,599 --> 00:56:53,039
their dollar, when a lot of times it's like that's

952
00:56:53,159 --> 00:57:00,440
not even a choice that most people have. Most people

953
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:03,079
just need to figure out how to get food on

954
00:57:03,079 --> 00:57:05,519
the table for their families and do it in a

955
00:57:05,559 --> 00:57:09,719
way that doesn't break the bank. And unfortunately we don't

956
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,519
always see, because of our global food system, that the

957
00:57:13,559 --> 00:57:16,679
most affordable choice is also the most ethical choice.

958
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's so complicated, right, because I

959
00:57:22,519 --> 00:57:29,199
think also how people think about what is ethical is

960
00:57:29,239 --> 00:57:30,559
already so interesting.

961
00:57:30,719 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 3: Like, for example, I think I think a lot about

962
00:57:37,039 --> 00:57:42,360
charity and mutual aid and what's the line that separates

963
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:45,199
the two of them. And I think for a lot

964
00:57:45,239 --> 00:57:49,000
of people, you know, many of us grew up thinking

965
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:53,639
charity is what you that's what you do, It's a

966
00:57:53,679 --> 00:57:56,159
mark of you being a good person. For people who

967
00:57:56,199 --> 00:57:58,760
grow up. Christian charity is one of the things that

968
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:04,199
marks your faith, you know, giving to people in that way,

969
00:58:03,599 --> 00:58:06,559
and so you know that might be an ethical sort

970
00:58:06,599 --> 00:58:10,480
of no brainer for some people. But it's also true

971
00:58:10,559 --> 00:58:15,000
that like charity in terms of food and the food

972
00:58:15,079 --> 00:58:19,199
system is a bit of a quagmire in terms of

973
00:58:20,679 --> 00:58:25,559
there's a lot of distance between the giving part, which

974
00:58:25,599 --> 00:58:28,039
is sort of an affirmation of the person who's doing

975
00:58:28,039 --> 00:58:32,760
the giving, and the receiving part, which has often by

976
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:39,159
and large required people on the receiving end to bow

977
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:44,599
down or lower themselves in a particular way. So charity

978
00:58:44,679 --> 00:58:47,239
has been a part of charity is a part of

979
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:49,840
this hierarchy that continues to operate in the way that

980
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:52,800
it does. And I've been intrigued by mutual aid because

981
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,519
i think mutual aid on some level is an attempt

982
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:02,559
to upend that actually, to really tie our faiths together,

983
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:07,920
to treat someone as whole and human, and when we

984
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:11,000
have the opportunity to do so, to use our giving

985
00:59:11,239 --> 00:59:15,199
as a as a as a space to do some

986
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:20,440
political education around different topics. Right, But it's not about

987
00:59:21,679 --> 00:59:24,039
this is just you needing to pull yourself up by

988
00:59:24,079 --> 00:59:28,079
your bootstraps. To me, mutual aid is recognizing that the

989
00:59:28,119 --> 00:59:33,599
system itself is producing crisis. Yes, and we we have

990
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:36,920
moments where we can intervene. And so even just I

991
00:59:37,039 --> 00:59:40,039
just use that as an example of like, those are

992
00:59:40,079 --> 00:59:46,639
two very different ethical stances that produce different relationships to ourselves,

993
00:59:46,719 --> 00:59:52,920
to our neighbors, to the idea of interdependency itself, and

994
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:57,840
it's you and it's a useful frame for thinking about Okay,

995
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:02,320
so what does this mean for how we understand what

996
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,000
needs to change about the food system? Right? I mean,

997
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:09,119
first and foremost, the US food system is so there's

998
01:00:09,159 --> 01:00:12,840
so many monopolies in our food system it is nearly

999
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:18,400
impossible to so far because of different policies, etc. It's

1000
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,039
been really hard to break up those monopolies. But that

1001
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:26,760
is in my mind, a central kind of systemic problem

1002
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:31,679
related to our food system. Right, And so maybe as

1003
01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:35,920
an individual consumer, that's not necessarily something like well, man,

1004
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:40,639
I'm going to go take on nesle today, maybe, But

1005
01:00:41,159 --> 01:00:44,559
I think where we can be intervening is really on

1006
01:00:44,679 --> 01:00:48,119
the day to day level. In addition to of course, vote,

1007
01:00:48,239 --> 01:00:51,280
get involved in any kind of activism that you want.

1008
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,360
But I also think anything that we do on a

1009
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,360
small scale, we do on a larger scale. And so

1010
01:00:55,559 --> 01:00:57,159
for me, a large part of writing the book was

1011
01:00:57,199 --> 01:00:59,320
thinking about what are we doing on a day to

1012
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,239
day scale and how can we grow that? Because most

1013
01:01:02,239 --> 01:01:07,960
people don't go from not caring to like a lobbying overnight,

1014
01:01:08,159 --> 01:01:11,360
right right, You know, like you've practiced something on a

1015
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,760
small level that you didn't grow, And so I'm very

1016
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:19,039
invested in that. Maybe some people would call that meeting

1017
01:01:19,079 --> 01:01:21,760
people where they are maybe, but I think I think

1018
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:29,719
it's more so directing one's attention to a space where

1019
01:01:29,719 --> 01:01:34,039
you can practice your values, really practice it, practice them

1020
01:01:34,159 --> 01:01:36,880
before you're trying to scale up, scale them up and

1021
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:38,760
apply them to somewhere else.

1022
01:01:40,159 --> 01:01:43,039
Speaker 1: And so, what are some examples that you have, you

1023
01:01:43,079 --> 01:01:47,119
know in the book that you've been focusing on about

1024
01:01:47,159 --> 01:01:50,440
how to engage in that way, those small kind of

1025
01:01:50,599 --> 01:01:53,599
steps that you know that those who are starting to

1026
01:01:53,639 --> 01:01:59,320
open their eyes to these issues can can engage with.

1027
01:02:02,119 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 3: I opened gathered with talking about Reverend Hebert Brown, who

1028
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,440
was a pastor in Baltimore at the time that Freddie

1029
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:14,079
Garrett Gray was murdered in twenty fifteen. And for anyone

1030
01:02:14,119 --> 01:02:19,800
who's listening, when Freddie Gray was murdered in Baltimore, everything

1031
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:24,880
shut down because of protests, because of fear protests, and

1032
01:02:25,079 --> 01:02:28,599
included in those shutdowns were schools, and something like eighty

1033
01:02:28,679 --> 01:02:32,719
something percent of students in Baltimore received free and reduced lunch,

1034
01:02:33,159 --> 01:02:37,840
So no school meant no meals for some of these kids.

1035
01:02:38,199 --> 01:02:41,079
And also many grocery stores had boarded up to kind

1036
01:02:41,079 --> 01:02:44,840
of protect their property. And so Reverend Brown was getting

1037
01:02:45,199 --> 01:02:48,679
calls at his church from people asking for food, and

1038
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:52,320
so he started making calls to other churches, created a

1039
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:55,559
distribution center at a church to be able to meet

1040
01:02:55,559 --> 01:03:00,960
people's needs, and from that he also sparked a larger

1041
01:03:01,119 --> 01:03:04,320
idea of like, you know, people call churches potentially because

1042
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,760
of the charity reasons that I mentioned, but for Black

1043
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:11,119
churches in particular, they are some of the most stable

1044
01:03:11,239 --> 01:03:15,880
land holders and owners in any given community. And Reverend

1045
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,400
Brown knew that, and so he started a garden in

1046
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:25,039
his church's front lawn and grew things and started a market.

1047
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:29,159
But long story short, that eventually led to him creating

1048
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,920
the Black Church Food Security Network, which now has over

1049
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:36,480
two hundred and fifty churches who are dedicated to doing

1050
01:03:36,519 --> 01:03:39,800
the same thing. Wow, I just thought again. It started

1051
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:41,960
with a garden in the front lawn of a church,

1052
01:03:42,639 --> 01:03:45,679
and then it's built into something else. It's a literal

1053
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,480
example of starting where you are and then seeing where

1054
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:54,920
it goes, and then you know. Another example is I

1055
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:58,280
grew up, maybe many, maybe probably many of us who

1056
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:02,960
are listening, grew up with rituals around feeding people who

1057
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:08,280
have just lost the loved one, right, and funeral repasts

1058
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:14,039
are such a huge tradition in my own life and

1059
01:04:14,119 --> 01:04:17,760
my own communities, and I wanted to think about that

1060
01:04:18,119 --> 01:04:21,639
as a practice of being with people suffering, which I

1061
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:28,039
don't think us Americans do very well. And what I

1062
01:04:28,159 --> 01:04:30,800
mean by like, I really mean being with people suffering

1063
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:33,079
in it. And it's probably in a very Buddhist or

1064
01:04:33,119 --> 01:04:37,440
Buddhist adjacent way, which is we're not I'm not I'm

1065
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:39,079
not trying to fix or change you.

1066
01:04:39,519 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 1: Right, I'm not trying to run from it, not trying

1067
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:43,920
to yes, exactly.

1068
01:04:44,039 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 3: I am practicing building my tolerance for being with you

1069
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:53,639
and your suffering, having empathy for you, and I think

1070
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:57,360
also recognizing that this is a this is a part

1071
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:01,199
of a shared human experience, and so repasts are such

1072
01:05:01,199 --> 01:05:05,480
a great example of that. And I write about Chef

1073
01:05:05,559 --> 01:05:09,400
Tam who was a chef in Memphis at the time

1074
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:14,880
that Tyree Nichols was murdered, and she decided that she

1075
01:05:15,159 --> 01:05:19,719
was going to host a repass for the family and

1076
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:22,039
for the city and anyone who was coming to town

1077
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,519
for his funeral. And it ended up she was going

1078
01:05:25,599 --> 01:05:27,719
to do this all on her own at her restaurant,

1079
01:05:28,119 --> 01:05:32,119
but it ended up being thirteen chefs who committed to this,

1080
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:35,360
and they created this whole. And I had never seen

1081
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:38,400
anything like that before. I mean, I was so moved

1082
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:44,079
by it that these folks created a community, essentially, a

1083
01:05:44,119 --> 01:05:48,239
community repassed to hold the grief of the city. It

1084
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,559
was so so amazing. So another example of someone sort

1085
01:05:51,599 --> 01:05:56,440
of operating from a value and a tradition that they

1086
01:05:56,519 --> 01:05:59,639
knew very well and was able to scale it up

1087
01:05:59,679 --> 01:06:03,760
to some thing something larger. And I you know, I

1088
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:05,719
could go on and describe more examples from the book,

1089
01:06:05,719 --> 01:06:09,280
but the point being that these people weren't starting from scratch.

1090
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:12,119
They were starting from something that they already had an

1091
01:06:12,199 --> 01:06:17,440
investment in, but that that small seed metaphorically and literally

1092
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:19,800
in the case of the garden, grew to be so

1093
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:20,480
much more.

1094
01:06:21,679 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 1: I love that so much, and and I can imagine

1095
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:28,280
that the wheels are maybe turning for the listeners right now,

1096
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:31,280
because you know, obviously we're not all, uh, we don't

1097
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,079
all have sort of a status in a community or

1098
01:06:34,119 --> 01:06:39,039
a space or a sort of position of community organizing

1099
01:06:39,039 --> 01:06:42,480
our power. But we do have, you know, our own home,

1100
01:06:42,599 --> 01:06:44,679
and we do have our place in our family and

1101
01:06:44,719 --> 01:06:48,960
in our chosen family, and there there are always place

1102
01:06:49,159 --> 01:06:51,840
places to start thinking about.

1103
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 2: You know, we got to eat. Yeah, we got to eat,

1104
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:57,880
and we've got people that we.

1105
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 1: Love, and how how can we not just I guess

1106
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:06,199
in some ways give back to community or affect this

1107
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:09,239
sort of like you know, socio political change, but how

1108
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:12,239
can we also just get what we can out of

1109
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:15,440
this life by bringing people together?

1110
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,480
Speaker 3: Yeah? And also, I mean I would be remiss if

1111
01:07:19,519 --> 01:07:23,639
I didn't say this, which is this idea that our

1112
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:30,000
food practices are completely insular to just the homes that

1113
01:07:30,039 --> 01:07:34,079
we live in is also relatively new phenomena and also

1114
01:07:34,199 --> 01:07:38,360
kind of a minority when we think about global food practices. So,

1115
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:42,639
you know, there's a long history of people being communal

1116
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:46,119
around food, and communal meaning not just sitting down to

1117
01:07:46,159 --> 01:07:51,079
eat together, but sharing in the labor of beating oneself

1118
01:07:51,119 --> 01:07:55,960
in community and you know, I think there are ways

1119
01:07:56,000 --> 01:08:01,679
for us to practice that. And sometimes, you know, I imagine

1120
01:08:01,639 --> 01:08:05,800
several listeners probably love to cook, so do I, and

1121
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:07,800
sometimes we just kind of think like, oh, I'm just

1122
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,000
going to do this, it's not a big deal. But

1123
01:08:10,679 --> 01:08:13,519
when winter Storm Ury happened in twenty twenty one here

1124
01:08:13,559 --> 01:08:17,239
in Texas that took out our power grid, it was

1125
01:08:17,359 --> 01:08:20,720
those folks who were cooking these large pots of soup

1126
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:24,520
and beans, et cetera, that were literally making the difference

1127
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:26,680
between folks who were eating and not eating.

1128
01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:31,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh wow, yeah, oh yeah.

1129
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 1: And the thing is, sometimes this kind of organizing or

1130
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:39,920
this kind of experience, it doesn't come because somebody has

1131
01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:41,640
a great idea and they.

1132
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 2: Want to get back. It comes out of necessity.

1133
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And it's powerful and it comes out of necessity.

1134
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:53,840
And I think I've been really reflecting on these moments

1135
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:57,920
of how and why people choose to step up, and

1136
01:08:58,319 --> 01:09:04,039
I've landed at this realization that for some people, it's

1137
01:09:04,079 --> 01:09:07,920
not that they don't want to do something, they're waiting

1138
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:11,199
for someone to lead the charge. And I don't even

1139
01:09:11,239 --> 01:09:13,760
mean that in a judgmental way. I think sometimes we're

1140
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:17,159
just like with winter storm ury and the organizing that

1141
01:09:17,199 --> 01:09:20,800
I and others did here. That started because I put

1142
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:24,119
something on social media saying I would like to help

1143
01:09:24,199 --> 01:09:26,600
people who do not have power or do not have

1144
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:31,119
money to get to a hotel who needs help. And

1145
01:09:31,159 --> 01:09:34,000
then not only did that generate responses from people who

1146
01:09:34,039 --> 01:09:37,800
needed help, it was like an invitation to other people

1147
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:40,680
who wanted to help, because then I was getting these

1148
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:43,439
dms from people who were like, I can help too,

1149
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:46,159
I can help too, and so it just snowballed from there.

1150
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:51,039
And I think that that is for me, that is

1151
01:09:51,119 --> 01:09:55,520
a lesson in let me do what I feel nudged

1152
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:59,159
or called to do, and that might be an invitation

1153
01:09:59,279 --> 01:10:02,239
for someone else to do the same. I'm not responsible

1154
01:10:02,279 --> 01:10:05,239
for someone else making that decision, but if I am

1155
01:10:05,319 --> 01:10:09,239
operating in good faith in my own lane, maybe that

1156
01:10:09,319 --> 01:10:11,680
activates someone else to do that as well.

1157
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:13,279
Speaker 2: I love that.

1158
01:10:13,399 --> 01:10:16,479
Speaker 1: Gosh, I honestly could talk to you for hours. I

1159
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:18,479
know I've already kept you so much.

1160
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 2: Later and then I said I was going to.

1161
01:10:21,079 --> 01:10:24,119
Speaker 1: Do but I'm curious before we start to kind of

1162
01:10:24,159 --> 01:10:27,359
close up the conversation, because obviously we talked about so

1163
01:10:27,399 --> 01:10:29,319
many different things. We didn't just focus on the book.

1164
01:10:29,359 --> 01:10:31,600
We didn't even really get into the book until like

1165
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:35,880
halfway through. Is there anything that you know we did

1166
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:40,199
discuss mutual aid and repass in these and kind of gardening,

1167
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:43,600
And I'm curious if is there anything that we didn't

1168
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:46,039
touch on? Obviously there's a million things we didn't touch on,

1169
01:10:46,239 --> 01:10:48,840
but that you would be remiss for us to leave out.

1170
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:51,239
Is there anything you you want to make sure is

1171
01:10:51,359 --> 01:10:55,439
said before before folks, you know, go out and get

1172
01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:56,399
the book for themselves.

1173
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. I think I would just

1174
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:03,840
like to say, never underestimate a power, the power of

1175
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:08,119
a gathering, no matter how big or how small. That

1176
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:11,880
is the message of the book to me. Like I

1177
01:11:12,039 --> 01:11:13,840
end the book with I will I won't give the

1178
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:16,199
endingway for people who will read it. But you know,

1179
01:11:16,279 --> 01:11:20,039
my impulse after the twenty to twenty four election was

1180
01:11:20,079 --> 01:11:23,159
to feed people I cared about, and that is what

1181
01:11:23,199 --> 01:11:26,319
I did. And it became a space for us to

1182
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:33,479
really think together, grieve together, but also strategize around like

1183
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,119
what does our safety look like? What do we want

1184
01:11:36,159 --> 01:11:38,079
our community to look like? What are the commitments we

1185
01:11:38,159 --> 01:11:41,079
want to make to each other? And that wasn't the intention.

1186
01:11:41,279 --> 01:11:44,439
I just wanted to feed people. We ended up having

1187
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:49,880
these other conversations. So I think don't underestimate what is possible,

1188
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:52,399
because if you are a gatherer, that's what I call myself.

1189
01:11:52,399 --> 01:11:55,359
I love gathering people. If you are a gatherer like me,

1190
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:59,039
you can get so obsessed with all the details, like

1191
01:11:59,159 --> 01:12:03,840
trying to make every thing right, but you're that's not

1192
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:07,439
your job. You might you're bringing people together and you

1193
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:10,000
don't get to manage how they're going to show up,

1194
01:12:10,319 --> 01:12:13,399
what ideas they might have, what things they're bringing to

1195
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:15,800
the table. I think the best that we can do

1196
01:12:16,039 --> 01:12:19,199
is that it is to assume that an invitation that

1197
01:12:19,279 --> 01:12:21,840
someone accepts means that they are ready to come and

1198
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:25,359
be fully engaged. We don't have to do anything else.

1199
01:12:26,119 --> 01:12:27,800
Speaker 1: And I feel like you and I I mean as

1200
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:32,279
best we can being you know, miles apart and being

1201
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:36,119
connected through the internet, like we are gathering right now,

1202
01:12:36,119 --> 01:12:39,039
the post listening are gathering with us. But I'm also

1203
01:12:39,399 --> 01:12:41,960
very inspired. I have to be honest, because I am

1204
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:44,640
a bit of a homebody. I do have a tendency

1205
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:47,199
to be very boundary oriented and to say no to

1206
01:12:47,279 --> 01:12:50,560
things before I actually even think about saying yes. But

1207
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:54,399
I am inspired to tap into some of my pre

1208
01:12:54,520 --> 01:13:00,720
pandemic tendencies right now and experience what this life could

1209
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:05,880
be if I didn't just stay home, if I did

1210
01:13:06,039 --> 01:13:08,439
choose to say yes to show up to the gathering

1211
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:10,880
doesn't mean I gotta stay for hours and hours. You

1212
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:13,560
do not, you know, like just to get that face,

1213
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:15,600
because I'll tell you what, every time I do it,

1214
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:18,399
I'm like, I'm so glad I did that. I feel,

1215
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:22,079
you know, refreshed, and I feel reconnected. So what an

1216
01:13:22,119 --> 01:13:25,880
inspiring chat. I can't thank you enough. This was absolutely

1217
01:13:26,159 --> 01:13:30,279
wonderful everybody. The book is Gather Black Food, Nourishment and

1218
01:13:30,319 --> 01:13:34,159
the Art of Togethernist by doctor Ashante M.

1219
01:13:34,319 --> 01:13:36,880
Speaker 2: Reese a chante. Thank you so much for being here.

1220
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:39,960
Speaker 3: Thank you for inviting me. This conversation made my day.

1221
01:13:40,079 --> 01:13:40,439
Thank you.

1222
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:42,840
Speaker 1: Oh I'm so glad to hear it mine as well,

1223
01:13:43,039 --> 01:13:46,359
and everybody listening. Thank you for coming back week after week.

1224
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:48,359
I'm looking forward to the next time we all get

1225
01:13:48,359 --> 01:13:50,520
together to talk. Nerdy