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<v Speaker 1>Oh is it show die?

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<v Speaker 2>People say good money to see this movie.

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<v Speaker 3>When they go out to a theater, they want cold sodas,

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<v Speaker 3>hot popcorn, and no monsters in the protection booth.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring.

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<v Speaker 1>Got it off.

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<v Speaker 4>I think if I had told my ten year old

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<v Speaker 4>self that thirty years later I'd been making a movie

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<v Speaker 4>about Pat, I wouldn't have believed it. That's really good,

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<v Speaker 4>but well, here I am surrounded by Pats. My obsession

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<v Speaker 4>with Pat began in the early nineties on SNL. Pat

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<v Speaker 4>was nerdy, chunky, wore a Western shirt, and was indecipherable

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<v Speaker 4>as a man or a woman.

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<v Speaker 3>Pat.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you hear about our Halloween party?

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<v Speaker 4>Oh?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the guys are bringing liquor and the women will

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<v Speaker 3>be bringing or durs, So you'll be bringing pep don'ts mall?

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<v Speaker 4>And everyone was always trying to find out Pat's gender.

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<v Speaker 4>That was the sketch, the whole sketch, and it lasted

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<v Speaker 4>for over four years on Saturday Night Live and through

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<v Speaker 4>one major motion picture, a draft of which was even

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<v Speaker 4>written by Quentin Tarantino. My middle school friend and I

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<v Speaker 4>used to watch It's Pat the movie over and over

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<v Speaker 4>and over again. It was hilarious.

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<v Speaker 1>I love to stroke your pussy cat.

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<v Speaker 4>I know Maty likes it too. I'm flopped. Pat was

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<v Speaker 4>left to rot in the annals of history, but not

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<v Speaker 4>for me. Pat lingered somewhere in the back of my mind,

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<v Speaker 4>dormant until twenty years an agender journey later, when I

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<v Speaker 4>was out one night with friends, I went home and

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<v Speaker 4>rewatched It's Pat in the movie. I still left my

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<v Speaker 4>ass off, but this time I saw something totally different.

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<v Speaker 4>I saw me.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, folks, welcome to a special episode of the Projection Booth.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm your host, Mike White. On this episode, I'm talking

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<v Speaker 2>with Rowan Haber. They are the director of the twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty five documentary We Are Pat. Do you remember Pat?

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<v Speaker 2>Remember that character from SNL kind of Questionable? Remember the

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<v Speaker 2>movie with a screenplay pass by Quentin Tarantino. Yeah, we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about that, and we're talking about Roe's amazing documentary.

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<v Speaker 2>And yeah, I had a great time with this film.

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<v Speaker 2>I had a great time talking with Roe, and I

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<v Speaker 2>hope you enjoyed this interview. Can you tell me kind

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<v Speaker 2>of how you got your start.

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<v Speaker 4>I went to NYU for film school quite some time ago,

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<v Speaker 4>and immediately after film school I just started making documentaries

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<v Speaker 4>because it was sort of like an easy way, like

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<v Speaker 4>barrier of entry. Kind of it's not easy, but it was,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, you can just get started, you can grab

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<v Speaker 4>a camera, you can go make a film. So I

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<v Speaker 4>met a very good friend of mine, Lauren Chaffey, who

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<v Speaker 4>is now a big doc producer, and we made our

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<v Speaker 4>first series called New Deep South, which is about queer

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<v Speaker 4>life in Mississippi, and that was kind of like, really

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<v Speaker 4>how I got started in the doc space, So pretty

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<v Speaker 4>traditional beginning, but then have continued to do documentary and

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<v Speaker 4>narrative work and commercial work since then.

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<v Speaker 2>When it comes to documentaries, how do you choose your subjects?

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<v Speaker 2>Or do your subjects choose you?

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<v Speaker 4>They definitely choose me. I definitely. Pat was not something

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<v Speaker 4>that I had on my mind to make a film about.

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<v Speaker 4>But in order to make a good doc you kind

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<v Speaker 4>of have to have a It's you know, it's like

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<v Speaker 4>having like a thesis statement in an essay. You just

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<v Speaker 4>have to have sort of like a sticky question that

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<v Speaker 4>you feel like you can actually unpack and explore, like

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<v Speaker 4>in a meaningful way. And I felt like Pat was

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<v Speaker 4>a really good entry point in to like a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of larger questions, like sort of philosophical questions about art,

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<v Speaker 4>about how our ages, about gender, about like historical contexts.

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<v Speaker 4>So it felt like be a lot there.

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<v Speaker 2>You remember that moment when you said to yourself, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I do need to make this documentary, There was enough

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of tip those scales for you.

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<v Speaker 4>I was at a dinner, I think in the film,

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<v Speaker 4>I don't say it quite as specifically, but I was

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<v Speaker 4>at a sundance dinner. I was at this like funny

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<v Speaker 4>steakhouse in Burbank, and we're all joking about nineties movies

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<v Speaker 4>that should never be remade, and suddenly like Pat popped

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<v Speaker 4>into my mind and I was like, I want to

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<v Speaker 4>remake its Pat. So then I went home and rewatched

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<v Speaker 4>It's Pat the movie with like my middle school best

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<v Speaker 4>friend who I had originally watched Pat with. And I

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<v Speaker 4>honestly think it was in the rewatching of It's Pat

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<v Speaker 4>in the movie that I felt, yeah, like that a

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<v Speaker 4>documentary has to be made on this, because It's Pat

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<v Speaker 4>in the movie is so it's kind of like so

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<v Speaker 4>screwball and so wild and so good in certain ways

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<v Speaker 4>that I just felt like Julia was so prescient about

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<v Speaker 4>these conversations about gender that we were going to be having.

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<v Speaker 4>It's just that she didn't really know that that's what

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<v Speaker 4>she was getting at. So I kind of felt like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>like when you find a piece of art in a

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<v Speaker 4>way that is weirdly ahead of its time, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>despite being kind of also behind in certain ways, Like

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<v Speaker 4>it's just it's a unique piece, you know, And I

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<v Speaker 4>felt in that moment that there was a lot to explore.

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<v Speaker 2>I can tell me a little bit about your process

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<v Speaker 2>as far as deciding who you're going to talk to,

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<v Speaker 2>or making a list maybe of who you want to

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<v Speaker 2>talk to, and just like setting up the logistics of this,

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<v Speaker 2>because it seems like this was a massive project.

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<v Speaker 4>I knew that I wanted to talk to Julie, so

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<v Speaker 4>she was sort of number one, But early on I

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<v Speaker 4>also knew that I wanted to speak with sort of

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<v Speaker 4>cultural figures and comments, so I started with people that

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<v Speaker 4>I knew. Joey Solloway was a sort of early interview

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<v Speaker 4>because I knew Joey. James Tom was early on my

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<v Speaker 4>list because I've known James for a long time. I

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<v Speaker 4>pre interviewed Lyndon Crawford, who is not in the film

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<v Speaker 4>so much but was like a really formative in the

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<v Speaker 4>way that I thought about the film. So I just

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<v Speaker 4>kind of at first reached out to people that I

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<v Speaker 4>was familiar with, and then honestly with the comics. It

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<v Speaker 4>was really fun because how I found them was that

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<v Speaker 4>I just went to a whole bunch of comedy shows.

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<v Speaker 4>So I was in New York and like, there's a

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<v Speaker 4>show called Tea for Tea, which is just a trans

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<v Speaker 4>comedy show, and I went there and was like kind

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<v Speaker 4>of was scouting who I thought was funny. And after that,

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<v Speaker 4>those were the comics that I hit up to discuss

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<v Speaker 4>the film.

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<v Speaker 2>How did you approach Julia Sweeney yourself?

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<v Speaker 4>I reached out, like I think I just sent her

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<v Speaker 4>like a cold email, because I think on her website

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<v Speaker 4>there was like a contact me thing, so and then

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<v Speaker 4>the second she didn't get back to me, and then

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<v Speaker 4>I knew someone who was like in the same book

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<v Speaker 4>club as she was, so I was like, oh this

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<v Speaker 4>is I was like, I'll go through the book club,

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<v Speaker 4>but that person wasn't really comfortable like approaching her, so

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<v Speaker 4>then we just sort of went the traditional route and

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<v Speaker 4>went through her reps and then that's how she responded.

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<v Speaker 2>Feels like this is a real kind of reckoning for

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<v Speaker 2>her as well, just like how this character I created,

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<v Speaker 2>how do they play now? How was it conceived? You know,

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<v Speaker 2>just even some of that was like a reaction to

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<v Speaker 2>all the boys have characters, but I don't have a character.

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<v Speaker 4>Juliae and I like to joke that this was like

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<v Speaker 4>the most expensive couple years of therapy that's ever existed,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, so for both of us, because I think

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<v Speaker 4>it's for her, it was sort of like unpacking this

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<v Speaker 4>character that has kind of come to represent her legacy,

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<v Speaker 4>at least in the comedy space. And for me it

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<v Speaker 4>was just about, yeah, like a childhood obsession that sort

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<v Speaker 4>of became indicative of a lot of other things that

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<v Speaker 4>I was thinking about in my life.

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<v Speaker 2>Did your opinions and perceptions change as you were making this?

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<v Speaker 4>I think one of the big takeaways in the film

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<v Speaker 4>that I think is so meaningful was just kind of like,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, how Julia was influenced to make pat because

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<v Speaker 4>of the way that her the sort of gender pressure

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<v Speaker 4>that she experienced from her mom, And that was like,

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<v Speaker 4>that was definitely a piece of information that I was

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<v Speaker 4>not I didn't go in expecting that, you know, I

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<v Speaker 4>definitely expecting, like, oh, we get all this fun Pat lore,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, but the fact that Pat in a way,

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<v Speaker 4>like you know, the fixation with gender around Pat, I

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<v Speaker 4>think also came from like a gendered oppression that she

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<v Speaker 4>was facing. And then the whole thing about like the

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<v Speaker 4>SNL writer's room being so male dominated and kind of

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<v Speaker 4>her just trying to like get this character on that

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<v Speaker 4>weirdly like couldn't even be female because that wasn't even

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<v Speaker 4>going to work in that space. So I think those

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<v Speaker 4>were those were definitely some interesting two bits of information

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<v Speaker 4>that I wasn't expecting when I came in. But in

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<v Speaker 4>terms of my my affinity for Pat didn't really change.

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<v Speaker 4>Maybe it grew, you know, kind of came in like

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<v Speaker 4>having an affinity for Pat and came out with like

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<v Speaker 4>a more nuanced perspective on that, but still loving that.

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<v Speaker 2>I have to admit that I was never a big

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<v Speaker 2>Pat fan when I was watching the show, just because

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<v Speaker 2>of the drooling and hand thing just creep me the

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<v Speaker 2>fuck out. It wasn't the gender. And yeah, obviously I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not nearly as enlightened as you know, I'm more enlightened

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<v Speaker 2>now than I wanted all those years ago when I

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<v Speaker 2>was watching about it was just the hand thing, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so glad that you actually addressed that in the film.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean that's something that I actually wish we

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<v Speaker 4>had time to go into more. And that's you know,

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<v Speaker 4>if I had more time, I would have loved to

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<v Speaker 4>because I think, yeah, like I think, look, the nineties

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<v Speaker 4>were a different time. We were not talking about neurodivergence

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<v Speaker 4>and and that and disability in the same way, which

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<v Speaker 4>is I'm not saying that we're we've become very enlightened

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<v Speaker 4>on it now, but I think we have more language

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<v Speaker 4>around that. So I think, you know, Pat is not

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<v Speaker 4>only like sort of patten Away was like Julia just

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<v Speaker 4>trying to do weird, right, And what does weird mean.

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<v Speaker 4>Weird means like gender nonconforming, weird means, neurodivergent, Weird means

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<v Speaker 4>you know, like being chunky, Weird means you know, like

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<v Speaker 4>all of these different things. So I think she just

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<v Speaker 4>sort of put together these ideas of what undesirable meant.

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<v Speaker 4>And so a piece of that was this like neurodivergent piece,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, and we also talk about size ism, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>in the film. It's like, so I think she was

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<v Speaker 4>just sort of playing in those waters. And that's not

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<v Speaker 4>to excuse her, but I do think that, like I

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<v Speaker 4>don't know, like when I look back on all the

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<v Speaker 4>sketches that were on SNL at the time, they were

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<v Speaker 4>all really offensive, you know, and pretty much all of them.

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<v Speaker 4>Like I had to, like, NBC is taking down a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of the original Pat sketches, probably because they were offensive.

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<v Speaker 4>So I had to go on the way back machine

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<v Speaker 4>to like pull the full episodes of SNL, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>down from the Internet. And as I was like looking

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<v Speaker 4>for just the Pat sketches, I would watch the other sketches.

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<v Speaker 4>And so there was a sketch that came before the

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<v Speaker 4>Pat sketches that literally was called stock Talk, and it

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<v Speaker 4>was like like male stalkers like exchanging tips about how

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<v Speaker 4>to stock women. And I was like, this is so

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<v Speaker 4>much more offensive than the PAT sketches, you know what

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<v Speaker 4>I mean. We're not even talking about race, like I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>it's just like they're all offensive. So it's like it

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<v Speaker 4>is it was important for me to unlock, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>to discuss like the pieces of Pat that made Pat problematic,

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<v Speaker 4>and I think, like I said, I feel like we

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<v Speaker 4>could have gone into that even more. But yes, it's

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<v Speaker 4>definitely like the nerd diversion piece is like a big

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<v Speaker 4>part of pat that that I think we would reconsider

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<v Speaker 4>if we were making Fat. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>I see you in the documentary a lot. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>not just as a talking hand, but like participating with

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<v Speaker 2>group discussions and stuff. Can you tell me about your crew,

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<v Speaker 2>Like how many people are there shooting and recording all this?

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know how many people? I think it really

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<v Speaker 4>It definitely varied, like we had a smaller crew for

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<v Speaker 4>sort of just the interview parts, and then a larger

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<v Speaker 4>crew obviously for the for the recreations because we had

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<v Speaker 4>to like make the sets and you know, that was

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<v Speaker 4>like a sort of bigger couple days on the stage.

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<v Speaker 4>But generally I would say, you know, maybe like a

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<v Speaker 4>twelve person crew or something like for interviews and stuff,

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<v Speaker 4>still a bit of a crew because we you know,

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<v Speaker 4>we have to set up the backdrops and light it

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<v Speaker 4>and you know all that. But we had, honestly, we

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<v Speaker 4>had such a great crew, and we tried to get

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<v Speaker 4>I think naturally, I just tend to work with like

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of like queer people and people of color

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<v Speaker 4>and women, and I always hire female dps and you know,

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<v Speaker 4>it's that was no different like for this set, and

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<v Speaker 4>it was a really special set.

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<v Speaker 2>How long did it take you to actually put this together?

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<v Speaker 4>The entire process sort of from idiation to like premiering

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<v Speaker 4>was about five years.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow.

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<v Speaker 4>And the reason that it sort of took that long

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<v Speaker 4>really I think a because I started during the pandemic,

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<v Speaker 4>so that was kind of like a rough time for

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<v Speaker 4>production anyway. But be it was really the financing, Like

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<v Speaker 4>financing was what takes the longest to put together, I think,

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<v Speaker 4>or at least it did for us. So the filming

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<v Speaker 4>was not it's that that didn't take like a particularly

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<v Speaker 4>long time because we were you know, it was like

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of interviews and then there was some verite

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<v Speaker 4>but mostly and a lot of ar chibal. So it's

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<v Speaker 4>really the filming I think probably was over like two

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<v Speaker 4>years maybe or something. And the edit, of course, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>took like about a year.

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<v Speaker 2>So, well, what were you able to accomplish during the pandemic?

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<v Speaker 4>We shot the initial sizzle during the pandemic, so we

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<v Speaker 4>shot sort of like a sizzle reel that we used

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<v Speaker 4>to then go get funding. We shot a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>the initial interviews, we shot some of the people dressing

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<v Speaker 4>up as Pat and like running around stuff like the beach,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, people dressing him his Pat and running around

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<v Speaker 4>the beach, running through the streets of la Which is

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<v Speaker 4>actually really funny because when we recently like dropped our trailer,

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<v Speaker 4>someone commented in the comments action they were like, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>a couple years ago, I saw like a whole bunch

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<v Speaker 4>of Pats running around the streets, and I was like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>that was us. That was definitely us, Like it was

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<v Speaker 4>not anyone else. So you know, it's we did. We

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<v Speaker 4>did kind of quite a bit during the pandemic, but

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<v Speaker 4>then we went into sort of like principal photography more like,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, past the pandemic.

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<v Speaker 2>And obviously so much work on documentaries is done during

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<v Speaker 2>that post process, during the editing phase. Can you tell

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<v Speaker 2>me a little bit about how that was and who

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<v Speaker 2>you worked with for that?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, definitely. So I was really lucky to work with

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<v Speaker 4>like two incredible editors. Our main editor is Hannah Buck,

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<v Speaker 4>who does a lot of she does a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>pop culture docs. She works with Penny Lane, who is

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<v Speaker 4>another documentary director who does comedy. She's like Hail Satan

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<v Speaker 4>and she's very funny. So Hannah is kind of like

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<v Speaker 4>a structure queen. You know, she's very very good at structure,

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<v Speaker 4>which was important for this because we're putting together a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of elements. Hannah is based in Australia, so we

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<v Speaker 4>would work remotely, which was you know, interesting in itself.

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<v Speaker 4>With her, we really worked on dialing in kind of

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<v Speaker 4>the form of the film and how we were gonna

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<v Speaker 4>put together the elements of like you know, interviews, writers room,

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<v Speaker 4>the sketches, archival. You know, there was just a lot

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<v Speaker 4>to put together. And then our finishing editor was Alex Bose,

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<v Speaker 4>who is based in la and he's just so wonderful,

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<v Speaker 4>has so much heart, has like an amazing aesthetic eye,

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<v Speaker 4>and so with him we really we did some a

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<v Speaker 4>little bit of restructuring, and then we also really dialed in,

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<v Speaker 4>i would say, the aesthetics with them. They were both amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>Did you work with folks to get feedback on things

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<v Speaker 2>and kind of help shape it that last little bit.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, we did do a couple of feedback screenings with

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<v Speaker 4>some like trusted friends, and that was really helpful because originally,

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<v Speaker 4>like in one of the earlier screens, we had the

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<v Speaker 4>full sketches in and we just felt like it was

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<v Speaker 4>running too long based on the feedback that we got,

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<v Speaker 4>so then we we cut them up, so it's you know, yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>we definitely took me back into consideration.

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<v Speaker 2>I was also curious about you yourself as you're going

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<v Speaker 2>through this whole process, like what were some of the

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<v Speaker 2>more surprising things that you found while you're doing your

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<v Speaker 2>research and putting this together.

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<v Speaker 4>One funny bit of trivia that I think is like

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<v Speaker 4>interesting is that in Its Pat the movie, like the

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<v Speaker 4>band that plays is Ween, which is, you know, a

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<v Speaker 4>band that I really liked when I was a kid.

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<v Speaker 4>That's actually how I found Pat was that I really

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<v Speaker 4>was obsessed with Ween and then so I saw It's

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<v Speaker 4>Pat the movie because it was like Ween is in

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<v Speaker 4>this movie, and then I became obsessed with Pat. But

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<v Speaker 4>the band that was originally supposed to play was Nirvana.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And because Julia had met Nirvana because Kurt Cobain

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<v Speaker 4>actually loved Pat, which is kind of crazy, like Julia

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<v Speaker 4>met Kurt Cobain and Nirvana like on SNL because they

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<v Speaker 4>were playing they were the musical act in one of

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<v Speaker 4>the shows. So they were supposed to be in Its

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<v Speaker 4>Pat in the movie, and then I think they like

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<v Speaker 4>had to tour or something happens and then they got

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<v Speaker 4>Ween instead, which I thought was like a really funny

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<v Speaker 4>piece of trivia. So definitely found that out. Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 4>would say, that's like a funny piece of trivia. Oh

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<v Speaker 4>so there's like a really funny interview with Quentin Tarantino

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<v Speaker 4>and up like this nineteen ninety three Playboy about Pat

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<v Speaker 4>that I thought was like a very funny like piece

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<v Speaker 4>of ephemera that I thought that I really enjoyed finding.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, And it's so fascinating to me that you

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<v Speaker 2>found Pat through the movie rather than television, because I

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<v Speaker 2>think you're probably younger than I am. So I was

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<v Speaker 2>watching those snls while they're playing how old were you

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<v Speaker 2>when you saw It's Pat the movie for the first time?

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<v Speaker 4>I think I was maybe like twelve, So yeah, I was.

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<v Speaker 4>I wasn't watching, I wasn't watching sketches in real time.

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<v Speaker 4>I was watching the movie. Really was what I found,

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<v Speaker 4>And maybe that's even why I liked Pat so much,

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<v Speaker 4>was that I think Pat in the movie has like

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<v Speaker 4>more of a character arc, you know. So really I

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<v Speaker 4>became obsessed with the film, and then I didn't see

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<v Speaker 4>the sketches until later.

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<v Speaker 2>It's amazing to me because I were remember I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know maybe two three of the sketches I remember I

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<v Speaker 2>think Dana Carvey played at significant other Chris, I want

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<v Speaker 2>to say, yes, I didn't know the breath of those

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<v Speaker 2>and just all of the do you go in this room?

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<v Speaker 2>Or this was like how often can you stretch out

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<v Speaker 2>this joke?

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<v Speaker 4>It's crazy to me because if you look at how

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<v Speaker 4>long the sketches last on SML, pat was a very

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<v Speaker 4>you know, successful sketch, like it lasted for four years,

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<v Speaker 4>so that's pretty wild. And then it had like a

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<v Speaker 4>film spinoff, which was the model back then, but like nonetheless,

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<v Speaker 4>it obviously had to do extremely well to then be

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<v Speaker 4>spun off into a movie. So yeah, it's amazing how

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<v Speaker 4>how far that joke went.

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<v Speaker 2>As we are talking, have you had your premiere yet?

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<v Speaker 4>So we premiered at Tribeca a year ago, and then

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<v Speaker 4>we did the festival circuit for about a year, and

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<v Speaker 4>then we did we're doing a theatrical run right now.

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<v Speaker 4>So we just had a week long run in New

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<v Speaker 4>York at DCTV. We're going to to be at Vidiots

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<v Speaker 4>in Los Angeles on June twenty eighth, which will be

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<v Speaker 4>really like a big, wonderful screening. And we're also in

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<v Speaker 4>like a bunch of different places, so I folks want

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<v Speaker 4>to go on to our website. We are pat dot com.

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<v Speaker 2>Fantastic bro. Thank you so much for your time. This

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<v Speaker 2>is such a pleasure talking about Oh.

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<v Speaker 4>It's my pleasure. I think so much, Mike.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you wendesday? How sad on the room head who

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<v Speaker 1>pass when blames me and he tail together you as

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<v Speaker 1>one heart, one from down lost, lost.

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<v Speaker 3>And Chile.

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<v Speaker 1>The rest from your seldom.

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<v Speaker 3>Reduce salities, cannot see words.

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<v Speaker 1>I've gotten to dave us heart.

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<v Speaker 3>Ass not lost, yesss lot.

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<v Speaker 1>Dods you here you what kind of fish heart? Save

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<v Speaker 1>for the last I appreciate the most. The school still

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<v Speaker 1>stasting state