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<v Speaker 1>Hey, everyone, Welcome to episode four hundred and seven of

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<v Speaker 1>The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with today's guest,

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<v Speaker 1>Ed Wolcoff. Ed served in Vietnam with mac V SAG.

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<v Speaker 1>I spent time in Special Forces and then served as

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<v Speaker 1>a nuclear officer. And you were also, was it an

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<v Speaker 1>EOD company commander?

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<v Speaker 2>Ed? I was an EOD detachment commander for quite a while,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you know, for about seven and a half

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<v Speaker 2>years in EOD, but also in ordinance and to include

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<v Speaker 2>special weapons, gotcha, you have yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>And he is also the author of the book Special

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<v Speaker 1>Reconnaissance in Advanced Small Unit Patrolling. I got this book

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<v Speaker 1>and use it as a reference myself. This is I

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<v Speaker 1>think it is the most comprehensive book out there on

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<v Speaker 1>this topic, the most thorough that really goes deep onto

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<v Speaker 1>the subject of tactics and techniques and procedures that are necessary,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in jungle warfare, which we'll talk about I think

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<v Speaker 1>quite a bit later on in this interview. But first, Ed,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you for joining us.

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<v Speaker 2>On the show. Thanks glad to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Ed, I'd like to start at the beginning with

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<v Speaker 1>these interviews, if you can tell us a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>about sort of your upbringing and how that took you

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<v Speaker 1>towards eventually the military.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, graduated from high school and went to college, joined

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<v Speaker 2>r OTC. Was a member of the r OTC Ranger

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<v Speaker 2>Company at the University of where I was, and we

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<v Speaker 2>had some Special Forces advisors. They took me under my

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<v Speaker 2>their wing and kind of indoctrinated me in special operations

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<v Speaker 2>and in hush tones talking between themselves, they would talk

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<v Speaker 2>about SOG and I asked, what was SOG And it

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<v Speaker 2>was one of these things where they said, we'd have

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<v Speaker 2>to kill you before we tell you. Uh. And uh.

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<v Speaker 2>But they you know, they they gave some uh, some

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<v Speaker 2>insider information. Uh. They said that SOG recon had seventy

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<v Speaker 2>percent casualty rate. And I said, oh, that's that's the

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<v Speaker 2>place where I want to go. Uh uh and uh.

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<v Speaker 2>I dropped out of college uh and joined the army

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<v Speaker 2>as an enlisted man with the intent of realizing that

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<v Speaker 2>dream going airborne, you know, volunteering all the way, going

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<v Speaker 2>airborne uh and special Forces and ultimately in SOG. And

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<v Speaker 2>I achieved that. And uh. At that point, I had

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<v Speaker 2>no no real intent to become a career soldier, but

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<v Speaker 2>I decided to do that after my experience in UH

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<v Speaker 2>in SOG and Vietnam. What year was this that you

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<v Speaker 2>joined up? Sixty seven?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you were hearing from some of your instructors

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<v Speaker 1>who were there early on in the war, probably like

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<v Speaker 1>sixty six or sixty.

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<v Speaker 2>I joined the army in sixty seven and then I

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<v Speaker 2>got to A Vietnam and SAG in March of sixty nine.

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<v Speaker 2>And then it was there for twenty five months and

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<v Speaker 2>ran twenty five missions. Oh wow wow.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell us about kind of how you got into

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<v Speaker 1>special forces and going through the training back in those days.

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<v Speaker 1>I know Camp McCall wasn't quite as built up as

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<v Speaker 1>it is today.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's quite true. You were intense and uh it

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<v Speaker 2>was there was a big focus on physical fitness the

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<v Speaker 2>UH and land navigation as it is today. Uh and uh.

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<v Speaker 2>Back then uh uh the training for special forces UH

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<v Speaker 2>was in three parts. First was you know, getting through

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<v Speaker 2>the basic course AH and getting qualified uh. And the

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<v Speaker 2>second part was your MS training UH. And then the

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<v Speaker 2>third part was the unconventional warfare training and you had

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<v Speaker 2>an index uh and UH. Then you were assigned to

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<v Speaker 2>a group and I chose weapons. When I was in

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<v Speaker 2>a I T, I was an eleven Charlie, which was

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<v Speaker 2>Morderman UH and I had an affinity. I wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>get into UH close combat operations, so UH I selected

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<v Speaker 2>UH eleven Bravo MOS, which was you know, infantryman light

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<v Speaker 2>weapons actually and was trained in light and heavy weapons UH.

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<v Speaker 2>Later on, after a return from Vietnam, I went to

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<v Speaker 2>a love and foxtrot course and that became my secondary

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<v Speaker 2>that was operations and intelligence. But at any rate, my

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<v Speaker 2>assignment out of training group was to the sixth Special

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<v Speaker 2>Forces Group. I wasn't there very long. The my team

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<v Speaker 2>sergeant and my sergeant major took a liking to me

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<v Speaker 2>and they sent me to UH Underwater Operations Course scuba school,

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<v Speaker 2>and at that point I was a spec for UH

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<v Speaker 2>and UH. UH. I asked around the more senior n

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<v Speaker 2>CEOs about how I could get to SOG and I

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<v Speaker 2>found a guy who was who was bound for Vietnam,

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<v Speaker 2>and he gave me UH the phone number for the

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<v Speaker 2>woman we referred to as missus A, who was the

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<v Speaker 2>assignments up at the Pentagon. Not at the Pentagon, but

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<v Speaker 2>at first called personnel.

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<v Speaker 1>Comment and you had to send her flowers.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't have to.

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<v Speaker 1>OH, a lot of guys that called me up.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I called her up by somehow I got a

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<v Speaker 2>hold of a phone and without anybody listening, because I

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<v Speaker 2>knew my team sergeant, my sergeant major would be pissed off.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh yeah, by volunteering for that after you know, they've

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<v Speaker 2>done me the favor of signing me up for scuba school. Anyway, Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>it was uh, you know, when I was on the

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<v Speaker 2>phone with her, I told her I wanted to I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to go to SOG And she said, are you sure,

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<v Speaker 2>because she knew what the casualty rate was she had

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<v Speaker 2>to fill all those slots and I said, yes, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely sure. So she said, okay, I'll get your I'll

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<v Speaker 2>get you your orders. So I was waiting around and

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<v Speaker 2>then the class date for school school started and uh,

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<v Speaker 2>back then and probably still, there is a kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a make or break uh event in the course which

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<v Speaker 2>is called the uh. It was a pool training like

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<v Speaker 2>a shark attack. Yeah, it was an harassment swim uh.

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<v Speaker 2>And I had just finished successfully completing the harassment swim uh.

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<v Speaker 2>And it wasn't very pleasant for me because they had

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<v Speaker 2>paired me up with the captain and they were all

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<v Speaker 2>after the captain and I was just kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>a uh, you know, a coincidental casualty, you might say.

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<v Speaker 2>But anyway, I passed that. UH, and we went back

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<v Speaker 2>to the barracks to get ready for the next class,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was told that the C I C of

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<v Speaker 2>the committee wanted to see me. And I said, oh, Ship,

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<v Speaker 2>I failed, I failed to swim, I failed the harassment swim.

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<v Speaker 2>He brought me and said, you got orders, uh and UH,

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<v Speaker 2>and he he knew what the code was on the

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<v Speaker 2>orders that indicated I was going to SAG UH and UH.

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<v Speaker 2>He said, we'll put you on a on a bus

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<v Speaker 2>back up to Fort Bragg and you'll have to process

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<v Speaker 2>out and then you're on your You're on your way.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know at that point as a you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a lowly spec for that, I could have asked for

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<v Speaker 2>a delay until I completed the scubas of course, but

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know that at the time. So UH back

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<v Speaker 2>up to BRAG, processed out, and UH got to an

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<v Speaker 2>trang where they gave me they they further assigned me

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<v Speaker 2>to the specific part of UH SAG where I was

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<v Speaker 2>to be a signed, which was Command and Control Central

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<v Speaker 2>or also known as FOB two. ED.

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<v Speaker 1>Can I just ask a question real quick. I not

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<v Speaker 1>that I know everything about this era, but I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think I've ever heard in the past of someone actually

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<v Speaker 1>getting orders to SOG from the United States. It always

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<v Speaker 1>seems like the guys talk about the arriving count tree

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<v Speaker 1>and they'd give them some kind of brief, like very vague,

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<v Speaker 1>we have this special reconnaissance outfit. You want to volunteer,

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<v Speaker 1>And that's kind of how they found their way in.

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<v Speaker 1>It was that like a unique situation that you found

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<v Speaker 1>yourself in.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, apparently it had changed when SOD started, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>got off the ground. Uh they were actually sending uh

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<v Speaker 2>spec fors and Sergeant E fives to O and I

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<v Speaker 2>course to qualify them to go to SOG and then

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<v Speaker 2>they would be directly assigned assigned to side. Well, they

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<v Speaker 2>would have to go to the fifth Group because the

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<v Speaker 2>fifth Group was the administrative service for special Forces there

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<v Speaker 2>and then. But on the orders, there was a three

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<v Speaker 2>letter code on the orders with which indicated uh the

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<v Speaker 2>ultimate unit of assignment. And I didn't know that at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, but it was explained to me by by

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<v Speaker 2>the n c C, the Scuba Committee, and uh so

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<v Speaker 2>I got to a got in to trang uh and

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<v Speaker 2>uh processed in and then found my way on a blackbird,

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<v Speaker 2>uh from the Trang to uh Contomb and that was

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<v Speaker 2>an interesting there were my adventures started, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell us about that kind of first couple of

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<v Speaker 1>days arriving at CCC and what that firebase was like

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<v Speaker 1>and the people you met there.

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<v Speaker 2>Huh so Uh. It was kind of striking flying over Vietnam.

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<v Speaker 2>It was green rainforest everywhere, beautiful, broken up by the

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<v Speaker 2>occasional road and village and town and city French architecture, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, stucco and with red tile roofs and stuff

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<v Speaker 2>like that. Very very attractive from the sky, not so

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<v Speaker 2>attractive on the ground. But I landed at at Kantom Airstrip,

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<v Speaker 2>like I said, on a Blackbird, and there was a

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<v Speaker 2>tractor trailer from the fob waiting to get the cargo

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<v Speaker 2>from the Blackbird to take it to the fob. So

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<v Speaker 2>I and there was about four other folks on board

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<v Speaker 2>the aircraft who were inbound and so we were sitting

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<v Speaker 2>on the pallets as we drove out out the road

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<v Speaker 2>the access road to the airfield, and right there was

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<v Speaker 2>the provincial government building uh for Kantum Province. Took her

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<v Speaker 2>right and in front of the the provincial headquarters was

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<v Speaker 2>this big open field uh and uh overgrown with weeds,

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<v Speaker 2>and right in the middle of it was a French

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<v Speaker 2>penhard armored car that had been destroyed. And it kind

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<v Speaker 2>of resonated with me that the French had been there

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<v Speaker 2>before us and UH and had failed and UH and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the historical aspect of that kind of rushed

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<v Speaker 2>in on me. Up the road about three miles I

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<v Speaker 2>would say, from Kantum from the airfield, at least, passing

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<v Speaker 2>over a bridge, and we entered the gate. Now the fob,

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<v Speaker 2>for some strange reason, was divided into two by the highway.

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<v Speaker 2>The highway is called q L fourteen and UH. As

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<v Speaker 2>far as a UH defensive setting, I thought it was

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<v Speaker 2>inappropriate to have a highway dividing your your compound. UH.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, not only was it a highway for the Vietnamese,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a highway for an enemy who wanted to,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, to to attack you, uh on a high

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<v Speaker 2>speed route of approach. Bet I digress here, but drove

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<v Speaker 2>in the gate and it was it was child time

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<v Speaker 2>and people were coming out of the mess hall UH,

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<v Speaker 2>and among them was a guy who had gone through

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<v Speaker 2>training group with me. His name was John Saint Martin,

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<v Speaker 2>and John recognized me instantly. UH and UH wanted me

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<v Speaker 2>to h to join his his team. He was not

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<v Speaker 2>the team leader, he was the assistant team leader and

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<v Speaker 2>and but there was a vacancy on the team, so

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<v Speaker 2>UH he took me to see his team leader and

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<v Speaker 2>he basically gave me the nod. And then I went

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<v Speaker 2>over and spoke to the first sergeant over at Recon

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<v Speaker 2>Company headquarters. The following so I knighted over in the

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<v Speaker 2>team room, and the following day we went over to

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<v Speaker 2>see the sergeant major and he gave us the end brief,

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<v Speaker 2>or at least part of it, and gave us the

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<v Speaker 2>opportunity to decline the operation indicating hazardous operation you know

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<v Speaker 2>across border operations, all that good stuff. UH and UH

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<v Speaker 2>so among us was a medic and then there was

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<v Speaker 2>four other guys. One was an n c O UH

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<v Speaker 2>and UH. The NCO decided he would go to the

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<v Speaker 2>Exploitation Force and the rest of us UH opted for

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<v Speaker 2>a recon. From there, we got inbriefed by UH the

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<v Speaker 2>S two shop and gave us the one over the

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<v Speaker 2>world thing. We got to see the big map on

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<v Speaker 2>the wall where the area of operations was, and it

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<v Speaker 2>was all, you know, just what I kind of expected.

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<v Speaker 2>My first sergeant at that point was the guy by

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<v Speaker 2>the name of Bob Howard, and he was a very

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<v Speaker 2>striking in appearance, extremely well built, powerfully built guy, scar

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<v Speaker 2>on his face. And Saint Martin had told me that

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<v Speaker 2>he had been submitted for his third recommendation for a

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00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:21.279
<v Speaker 2>Medal of Honor at that point, uh, and that he

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<v Speaker 2>was going to get it this go round. Uh. And

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<v Speaker 2>of course, uh, Saint Martin was in awe of Bob

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<v Speaker 2>Howard and as was most everybody else that I knew

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<v Speaker 2>that I encountered. He's very well thought of for obvious reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>And uh so that that's kind of was my introduction.

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<v Speaker 1>What was CCC in Control Central? What kind of was

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<v Speaker 1>their area of operation?

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<v Speaker 2>The area of operations in Laos were divided between CCN

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<v Speaker 2>and CCC roughly fifty to fifty during in the area

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<v Speaker 2>of the Hoist Himan Trail, and we also got a

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00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:32.759
<v Speaker 2>piece of northeastern Cambodia. And interestingly enough that area of

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it was all there was a major supply

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<v Speaker 2>route slicing through the southern portion of of the Laotian

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<v Speaker 2>Panhandle that went into the Triborder area, and part of

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00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:58.000
<v Speaker 2>that road continued on into South Vietnam, although it was

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<v Speaker 2>all overgrown by that point. And then there was at

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00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:04.680
<v Speaker 2>least two branches of that road that went into Cambodia

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<v Speaker 2>went south into Cambodia, UH and everything. And I later

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00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:18.279
<v Speaker 2>found out that that particular area was an NBA base

301
00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:27.119
<v Speaker 2>area for UH. It was called Base Area six O

302
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:34.759
<v Speaker 2>nine UH and UH there was a concentration of enemy

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<v Speaker 2>troops and enemy UH logistics located there. UH and that

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<v Speaker 2>logistics fed not only into South Vietnam into the Central Highlands,

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00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:53.640
<v Speaker 2>but it also fed into UH the border area along

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<v Speaker 2>the Cambodia South Vietnam border. So it was a vital

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<v Speaker 2>area of interest to the enemy. And because of that,

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00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:09.240
<v Speaker 2>it was extremely well guarded and uh UH and very

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00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:18.079
<v Speaker 2>hazardous territory for for operations. So I later on found

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00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:25.240
<v Speaker 2>out that our S two shop had failed us in

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00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:30.559
<v Speaker 2>a number of respects by not providing us UH the

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00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:36.720
<v Speaker 2>intelligence that I that was was at McFee headquarters j

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<v Speaker 2>J two and never seemed to wind up uh down

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<v Speaker 2>at our level, and UH disseminated among the team leaders

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<v Speaker 2>and UH, I can tell you about a couple operations

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<v Speaker 2>that for me that revealed these kinds of things about

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00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:06.480
<v Speaker 2>what I was really getting into. And it turns out

318
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:15.920
<v Speaker 2>that the casualty rate for our reconn company at FOB

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<v Speaker 2>two was one hundred UH or over one hundred percent,

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<v Speaker 2>rather than the seventy percent that I had been told earlier.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course casualties include k I A, w I A,

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00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:46.079
<v Speaker 2>M I A and UH. UH. So the the reason

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00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:50.640
<v Speaker 2>why the casually rate was so high was that guys

324
00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:56.000
<v Speaker 2>would get wounded and they would come back come back

325
00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:03.440
<v Speaker 2>to the FOB UH from the hospital. Directly from the hospital,

326
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:08.160
<v Speaker 2>they they many of them were to be medev act

327
00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:12.160
<v Speaker 2>and they declined meta medevac to Okinawa or back to

328
00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:18.519
<v Speaker 2>the States and UH and escaped from the from the

329
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:24.119
<v Speaker 2>hospital and UH hitchhike back to the FOB. An example

330
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<v Speaker 2>of that was a guy by the name of Norm

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<v Speaker 2>Doni Norm Domiy Dony. After Howard became UH an officer

332
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<v Speaker 2>and came back to command UH the Recon Company f

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<v Speaker 2>w B two. Norm Dony Dony had been with Delta

334
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<v Speaker 2>Project UH at Natrange and UH for reasons that I

335
00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:58.480
<v Speaker 2>can discuss later, he decided to leave Delta and he

336
00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:00.559
<v Speaker 2>was first sergeant a recon comp but he had Delta

337
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:03.240
<v Speaker 2>Project and he wanted to be first sergeant a recon

338
00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:09.279
<v Speaker 2>company at FOB two. So he was an outstanding individual.

339
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:13.599
<v Speaker 2>Brought a lot of experience. He had run recon himself

340
00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:16.759
<v Speaker 2>before he took the first sergeant's job. He wanted to

341
00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:22.440
<v Speaker 2>prove his medal to to the to the personnel that

342
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.599
<v Speaker 2>he would be in charge of as first sergeant. So

343
00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:30.119
<v Speaker 2>he took I think it was RT. Texas and he

344
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:37.920
<v Speaker 2>took several operations and on one operation he got wounded. Uh,

345
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<v Speaker 2>and it was his left eye, a fragment grenade fragment

346
00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:47.079
<v Speaker 2>penetrated his his left eye. Uh, and they you know,

347
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:50.240
<v Speaker 2>evacuated in the hospital and he just he shiked his

348
00:26:50.359 --> 00:26:53.799
<v Speaker 2>way back to the fob. They were going to avac

349
00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:57.039
<v Speaker 2>him to the States to perform surgery on the eye,

350
00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:05.359
<v Speaker 2>and he refused and uh he uh. He had optic

351
00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:10.519
<v Speaker 2>fluid coming out of his eye and down to his cheek,

352
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:13.960
<v Speaker 2>and his remedy for that was just he had a

353
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:18.559
<v Speaker 2>hanky and he had pad it and continued to dry

354
00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:21.839
<v Speaker 2>on and then he did another couple of missions with

355
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:27.440
<v Speaker 2>that before he before he became first started. So that

356
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:30.680
<v Speaker 2>was the kind of guys that we had there in

357
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:34.279
<v Speaker 2>the leadership positions that we looked up to set the

358
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:35.240
<v Speaker 2>example for us.

359
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.359
<v Speaker 1>Could you tell us about your first mission and kind

360
00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:41.000
<v Speaker 1>of jocking up for that and you know what the

361
00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:44.640
<v Speaker 1>the kind of preparation was that your one zero gave

362
00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:45.799
<v Speaker 1>you before you went out.

363
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:55.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's a nasty story. Actually, Uh, there were a

364
00:27:55.279 --> 00:28:01.640
<v Speaker 2>couple of guys at CCC who had gotten into Special

365
00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Forces through the back door. Uh. The fifth group in

366
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:10.880
<v Speaker 2>the Trang had a lot of vacancies A teams, B

367
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:17.920
<v Speaker 2>teams and special projects. So uh, they would accept u

368
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:25.480
<v Speaker 2>a h an infantryman with combat experience with the you know,

369
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:32.559
<v Speaker 2>the rank of staff sergeant or above into the Special

370
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:35.519
<v Speaker 2>Forces ranks. You would come to the TRAG and they'd

371
00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:39.839
<v Speaker 2>give them a beret. Then never went through uh the

372
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:44.480
<v Speaker 2>selection process, never went through Special Forces training. And UH

373
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<v Speaker 2>A couple of these guys really turned out to be

374
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:58.720
<v Speaker 2>really bad. And among them was my first team leader. Uh.

375
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<v Speaker 2>And he didn't train the team, He was not particularly

376
00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:25.640
<v Speaker 2>involved with the mont yards. Ah, and he he did

377
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:32.279
<v Speaker 2>some things that were unacceptable as a team leader. The

378
00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:37.599
<v Speaker 2>only deployment that I had under him was to a

379
00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:43.319
<v Speaker 2>bright Light, a week long bright light assignment. Bright Light

380
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:48.759
<v Speaker 2>was conducted out of our launch site, and the bright

381
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:54.519
<v Speaker 2>Light operation consisted of a special you know, a recon

382
00:29:54.599 --> 00:30:02.160
<v Speaker 2>team designated to go to the the rescue of a

383
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:09.400
<v Speaker 2>team in trouble or recover the remains of those who

384
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:20.440
<v Speaker 2>had been killed, or rescue and or recover crewman, aircraft crewman,

385
00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:30.079
<v Speaker 2>and there it was often a very hazardous job. So

386
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:32.640
<v Speaker 2>we went up to uh To doc To, which was

387
00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:36.200
<v Speaker 2>the lawn site, and we were not called out for

388
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:42.400
<v Speaker 2>any rescue operations or recovery operations, which was fortunate because

389
00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:46.240
<v Speaker 2>this team leader had never trained us. The training consisted

390
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:52.119
<v Speaker 2>of going out in the helipad and running through an

391
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:55.720
<v Speaker 2>immediate action drill or and do that a couple of times,

392
00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:58.319
<v Speaker 2>and then go to the range and shoot your weapons

393
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:04.440
<v Speaker 2>and not even run battle drills and then come back

394
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:09.559
<v Speaker 2>and that was it. And both Saint Martin and I

395
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:15.400
<v Speaker 2>were very concerned about that. Plus his behavior was I

396
00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:20.440
<v Speaker 2>don't want to even talk about his behavior frankly, I

397
00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:22.160
<v Speaker 2>could tell you offline, but.

398
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:25.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, inappropriate for the position.

399
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.559
<v Speaker 2>Inappropriate for a Special Force a soldier, inappropriate for any

400
00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:34.839
<v Speaker 2>soldier at any rate. Saint Martin and I went to

401
00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:38.519
<v Speaker 2>see Bob Howard and told him what was going on

402
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:43.519
<v Speaker 2>with a guy, and he said, don't worry, I'll handle it.

403
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:50.559
<v Speaker 2>After that bright light, this team leader was going on

404
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:55.359
<v Speaker 2>leave to Okinawa, where he alleged that he had a wife,

405
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:01.559
<v Speaker 2>and while he was gone to Okinawa, Howard ensured that

406
00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:05.119
<v Speaker 2>he never came back or it didn't come back. Uh

407
00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:12.400
<v Speaker 2>and uh he should have he should have been ejected

408
00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:16.599
<v Speaker 2>from Special Forces, but apparently that didn't happen. And I

409
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:19.400
<v Speaker 2>ran into him later on when I was an instructor

410
00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:23.279
<v Speaker 2>at Camp McCall as a student. He was a student,

411
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:29.960
<v Speaker 2>and he was he deserted.

412
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:37.680
<v Speaker 1>He deserted in the United States.

413
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:39.960
<v Speaker 2>Deserved the United States while he was going to that course.

414
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:44.640
<v Speaker 2>So that that gives you some inkling of the yeah

415
00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:50.599
<v Speaker 2>of the camera. So uh, Saint Martin took us out

416
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:55.720
<v Speaker 2>on uh one operation into a very hot area called

417
00:32:56.680 --> 00:32:57.559
<v Speaker 2>Hotel nine.

418
00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:01.319
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, just one second d before that. So when

419
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:03.799
<v Speaker 1>that team leader gets fired by Bob Howard, then Saint

420
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:06.039
<v Speaker 1>John becomes the team leader. Is that how that worked?

421
00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:08.759
<v Speaker 2>That was the way it was supposed to work. But

422
00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:12.000
<v Speaker 2>Saint Martin only had three missions under his belt, and

423
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:17.519
<v Speaker 2>that included the mission at the one zero school got

424
00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:24.279
<v Speaker 2>one zero, So realistically he only had two missions on

425
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:31.680
<v Speaker 2>the ground. Uh and uh uh And the reason why

426
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:38.279
<v Speaker 2>that loser had become team leader uh was because just

427
00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:44.359
<v Speaker 2>before I got there, Uh, the team had gotten into

428
00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:47.240
<v Speaker 2>a contact and the team leader had been killed and

429
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:51.640
<v Speaker 2>the assistant team leader had been uh severely wounded to

430
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:55.759
<v Speaker 2>meta back back to the States. So the radio man

431
00:33:56.720 --> 00:33:59.880
<v Speaker 2>wound up being the team leader, and he wound up

432
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:02.799
<v Speaker 2>being the team leader because he had claimed to have

433
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:08.119
<v Speaker 2>been a recon team leader in the one seventy third

434
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:14.960
<v Speaker 2>and uh uh.

435
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:22.400
<v Speaker 1>It was just yeah, so Hotel nine who was running

436
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:23.719
<v Speaker 1>the team when you guys went in.

437
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:30.400
<v Speaker 2>So Saint Martin was given the team, but we already

438
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:37.000
<v Speaker 2>had a designate oh to take over the team identified

439
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:46.679
<v Speaker 2>And at this point I think, uh, well, this was

440
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:57.480
<v Speaker 2>another guy from the one seventy third and the yeah,

441
00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:03.920
<v Speaker 2>he was uh bad in a different way from the

442
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:08.920
<v Speaker 2>original team leader we had. And I was beginning to

443
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:12.480
<v Speaker 2>think that our team New York was a bad luck

444
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:19.480
<v Speaker 2>team at this point because he didn't train us any

445
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:24.960
<v Speaker 2>better than our first team leader. He was an alcoholic.

446
00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:28.760
<v Speaker 2>He would come from training and go directly to the

447
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:33.280
<v Speaker 2>club and start drinking, and that was his practice every day.

448
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:45.599
<v Speaker 2>And we had the first operation with him was a

449
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:48.599
<v Speaker 2>very simple operation. We were going into a very hot area,

450
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:59.239
<v Speaker 2>but the mission was to drop off a transponder into

451
00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:05.239
<v Speaker 2>an area called Oscar three for B fifty twos to

452
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:15.280
<v Speaker 2>home in on beacon bombing. Yes, And it was basically

453
00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:22.880
<v Speaker 2>fly in, jump off the helicopter, hide the transponder, call

454
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:26.480
<v Speaker 2>the helicopter, come get you, and go back and that

455
00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:31.880
<v Speaker 2>was it. So the first two people off the helicopter

456
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:36.679
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be the team leader and the radio man,

457
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:43.760
<v Speaker 2>which is what I was at that point, and he, uh,

458
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:50.239
<v Speaker 2>I lost my balance. I was. I was standing on

459
00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:53.280
<v Speaker 2>the skid ready to jump off the helicopter under the ground.

460
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:55.960
<v Speaker 2>I lost my balance and got to the ground before him,

461
00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:58.599
<v Speaker 2>and he was very upset that I got onto the

462
00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:09.639
<v Speaker 2>ground before him. Uh, and chewed me out and it

463
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:10.760
<v Speaker 2>went downhill from there.

464
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:14.679
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465
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466
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467
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468
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470
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472
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496
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497
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:59.000
<v Speaker 2>Bye. We were giving another mission and he was It

498
00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:01.840
<v Speaker 2>was an area Tango seven, which was a very hot

499
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:12.159
<v Speaker 2>area and uh uh he really disliked Saint Martin and

500
00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:20.880
<v Speaker 2>and me. Uh he and he swore that, uh we

501
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:26.719
<v Speaker 2>were incompetent and would get him killed. That was his

502
00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:30.639
<v Speaker 2>point of point of view. Uh. And he would he

503
00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:32.599
<v Speaker 2>would go to the club and talk about those kind

504
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:36.800
<v Speaker 2>of things. And and he would, uh, you know, talk

505
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:42.159
<v Speaker 2>about other team leaders give his uninformed opinion about them.

506
00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:47.480
<v Speaker 2>And he talked about us. Saint Martin and I like dogs,

507
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:54.400
<v Speaker 2>and we knew about it. Ah, but uh he we

508
00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:58.400
<v Speaker 2>got this mission to Tango seven and we're up at

509
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:08.880
<v Speaker 2>the the launch site. Uh and he's he tells the

510
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:13.280
<v Speaker 2>launch officer. The launch officer tells him get ready to go.

511
00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:18.960
<v Speaker 2>We got a window. Uh and he says, I can't go.

512
00:40:20.119 --> 00:40:24.880
<v Speaker 2>I refuse to go. I feel sick to my stomach.

513
00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:35.280
<v Speaker 2>And uh so the launch officer radio is back to

514
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:40.519
<v Speaker 2>the fob. The fob commander personally comes out and goes

515
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:46.719
<v Speaker 2>to uh confronts him and his face is just purple

516
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:51.920
<v Speaker 2>with rage. Uh and he said, are you going to

517
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:54.599
<v Speaker 2>take this mission or not? And the guy said, no,

518
00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.639
<v Speaker 2>I don't feel good. Wow. Uh. So he said, you're relieved,

519
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:03.320
<v Speaker 2>you releaeve him on the spot, turned to Saint Martin

520
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:05.840
<v Speaker 2>and said, can you take the team on this op?

521
00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:09.400
<v Speaker 2>And Saint Art looks at me and I nod. We

522
00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:12.719
<v Speaker 2>agreed that we were going to take the team shorthanded

523
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:16.400
<v Speaker 2>and go on the op. And it was a successful operation.

524
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:25.079
<v Speaker 2>And this guy from being relieved, they sent him to

525
00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:31.280
<v Speaker 2>the security company to run guard posts and stuff like that.

526
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:37.039
<v Speaker 2>He was relieved for cowardice and he should have been

527
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:41.840
<v Speaker 2>kicked out of Special Forces or the army and the Army.

528
00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:49.280
<v Speaker 2>But interestingly, because we were so classified, nobody was ever

529
00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:53.119
<v Speaker 2>given an article of fifteen. Nobody was ever court martialed,

530
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:57.159
<v Speaker 2>even though some earned it, include me.

531
00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:03.159
<v Speaker 1>So did urt New York start to get back on

532
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:06.639
<v Speaker 1>track now that it was YouTube guys kind of running

533
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:07.199
<v Speaker 1>the show.

534
00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:12.360
<v Speaker 2>That's correct. We acquired another radio man by the name

535
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:18.159
<v Speaker 2>of John Blow and we started running ops. Uh, and

536
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:21.039
<v Speaker 2>every one of them was in a in a hot

537
00:42:21.079 --> 00:42:25.360
<v Speaker 2>target area. Uh, and every one of them we got

538
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:31.559
<v Speaker 2>into contact. Uh and we round about four ops, I

539
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:44.440
<v Speaker 2>would say, uh before uh we got into a a

540
00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:53.360
<v Speaker 2>very serious situation and John got shot up very badly.

541
00:42:54.920 --> 00:43:01.280
<v Speaker 2>UH and UH fortunately we were uh we were able

542
00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:04.239
<v Speaker 2>to get out of there in a very dramatic fashion.

543
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:06.159
<v Speaker 1>Could you could you expand a little bit about what

544
00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:07.719
<v Speaker 1>happened to you guys on the ground.

545
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:17.360
<v Speaker 2>Okay? So uh we landed on an l Z Tango

546
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:24.760
<v Speaker 2>seven uh New Yars Dream Valley. And one of the

547
00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:30.000
<v Speaker 2>things that John did that wasn't particularly smart, mind you,

548
00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:36.320
<v Speaker 2>John had never been tutored by a decent team leader. UH.

549
00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:41.320
<v Speaker 2>So John would would take a nasmuth from the l

550
00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:46.599
<v Speaker 2>Z and go straight to his target, which was an

551
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:51.719
<v Speaker 2>invitation UH two for the NBA to set up an ambush.

552
00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Once they realized that you were on an asmuth, they

553
00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:58.360
<v Speaker 2>could they could find you and get ahead of you

554
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:05.400
<v Speaker 2>and and set up blocking force for you. UH. Normally

555
00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:12.039
<v Speaker 2>within a couple of days we would be tracked down

556
00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:20.159
<v Speaker 2>by uh uh the tracker teams uh NVA squads typically

557
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:29.760
<v Speaker 2>with Laotian tribes and trackers. And these were the excellent troops.

558
00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:36.239
<v Speaker 2>These were outstanding troops, but at any rate, Uh. Two

559
00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:39.280
<v Speaker 2>days into the op they had not yet tracked us down.

560
00:44:41.320 --> 00:44:47.159
<v Speaker 2>And we came upon an area of dead bamboo. Uh

561
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:53.679
<v Speaker 2>and Uh. If you know anything about dead dead bamboo,

562
00:44:56.840 --> 00:45:01.599
<v Speaker 2>particularly if it's fallen, and they make a god awful noise,

563
00:45:01.639 --> 00:45:05.239
<v Speaker 2>it's impossible to get through a patch of dead bamboo,

564
00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:07.440
<v Speaker 2>almost impossible to get through it without making an eye

565
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:12.760
<v Speaker 2>of a lot of noise. Ah and Uh as cause

566
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:19.519
<v Speaker 2>as cautious as you could be. And uh. So we

567
00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:22.920
<v Speaker 2>entered that area of dead bamboo, which is fairly extensive

568
00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:30.519
<v Speaker 2>area probably had been killed by Asian orange. Ah and

569
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:36.280
<v Speaker 2>Uh got to the other side, and all of a

570
00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:42.360
<v Speaker 2>sudden we heard shouting from the green periphery uh, inside

571
00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:52.639
<v Speaker 2>inside the vegetation, uh and Uh. At this point, John,

572
00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:58.440
<v Speaker 2>being the second guy in in order of the file order,

573
00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:06.000
<v Speaker 2>he saw and the point man saw buildings, and they

574
00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:08.920
<v Speaker 2>gave the sign for buildings, which is basically like that.

575
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:14.519
<v Speaker 2>And I assumed that they were the typical bamboo huts

576
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:20.039
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing that the NBA used in the field.

577
00:46:20.719 --> 00:46:28.599
<v Speaker 2>And just at that point there was yelling in Vietnamese

578
00:46:29.119 --> 00:46:37.360
<v Speaker 2>from inside this this area. Uh. And for some reason,

579
00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:45.039
<v Speaker 2>our translator or interpreter did not translate what was being

580
00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:51.760
<v Speaker 2>said to John, and I found out later after John

581
00:46:51.760 --> 00:46:53.400
<v Speaker 2>had been all shot up and we got back to

582
00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:57.480
<v Speaker 2>the FOB that they were saying there's Americans in the

583
00:46:57.559 --> 00:47:04.880
<v Speaker 2>dead bamboo. Uh. So we got into inside the verge

584
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:11.920
<v Speaker 2>and I was confronted by something I really didn't expect,

585
00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:23.119
<v Speaker 2>which is really big buildings under canopy, heavy log structure,

586
00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:30.199
<v Speaker 2>long buildings, a cluster of four of them, and the

587
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:38.599
<v Speaker 2>grounds surrounding these buildings there wasn't a leaf or a

588
00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:47.039
<v Speaker 2>twig on it. It was totally pleased up. And right

589
00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:50.280
<v Speaker 2>before this cleared area where these buildings were there was

590
00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:55.280
<v Speaker 2>a fallen log, a fallen tree. And we assembled there

591
00:47:55.599 --> 00:47:59.400
<v Speaker 2>and John got this great idea that we would attack

592
00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:05.920
<v Speaker 2>the the largest building in the hopes of capturing NVA

593
00:48:06.039 --> 00:48:15.039
<v Speaker 2>officers and documents of you know, of importance and things

594
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:24.400
<v Speaker 2>like that. And uh, I I suggested to him that

595
00:48:24.519 --> 00:48:29.280
<v Speaker 2>maybe we ought to bomb at first before we assaulted

596
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:34.519
<v Speaker 2>it with an eight man recontem you know. Uh. And

597
00:48:34.599 --> 00:48:37.760
<v Speaker 2>he agreed with that. So he we got in contact

598
00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:43.880
<v Speaker 2>with our communication relay site and they passed the word

599
00:48:43.880 --> 00:48:47.719
<v Speaker 2>back to the FOB. At this point, it was getting

600
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:51.519
<v Speaker 2>near dusk. It was about an hour or a half

601
00:48:51.559 --> 00:49:00.360
<v Speaker 2>an hour before dusk, uh and UH the order came

602
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:09.199
<v Speaker 2>back from the FOBI commander to to bomb the facility

603
00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:16.000
<v Speaker 2>and then police up whatever we could. But we were

604
00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:20.519
<v Speaker 2>so close to those buildings that the only thing that

605
00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:23.400
<v Speaker 2>would penetrate the canopy would be a white phosphorus grenade.

606
00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:28.679
<v Speaker 2>And if we set off a white phosphorus grenade, then

607
00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:34.440
<v Speaker 2>the enemy would know exactly where we were. So we

608
00:49:34.519 --> 00:49:37.679
<v Speaker 2>summoned air support, which came in the form of a

609
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:45.719
<v Speaker 2>one fighter bombers, and attempted to adjust fire by sound.

610
00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:50.800
<v Speaker 2>We tried to you know, zero them into where we

611
00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:54.679
<v Speaker 2>were located by the sound of their engines, told them

612
00:49:54.679 --> 00:49:58.519
<v Speaker 2>to do a ninety degree turn or you know whatever

613
00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:00.760
<v Speaker 2>to get us in the visa entity so that they

614
00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:03.119
<v Speaker 2>could then and we had hoped that they that would

615
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:05.440
<v Speaker 2>be close enough where they could drop their bombs. They

616
00:50:05.480 --> 00:50:11.599
<v Speaker 2>were they were only carrying uh heavy bombs, cased caste bombs,

617
00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:18.559
<v Speaker 2>fragmentation bombs, and that didn't have anything else to uh

618
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:25.800
<v Speaker 2>for We're loaded on those aircraft at that point. Well,

619
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:29.159
<v Speaker 2>they dropped some ordinance and it was totally way off

620
00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:34.320
<v Speaker 2>uh in the in the distance, not even close uh.

621
00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:38.360
<v Speaker 2>So John decided, the hell with it, We're going to

622
00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:42.679
<v Speaker 2>go and assault that building. So we go back to

623
00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:49.239
<v Speaker 2>where this fallen uh fallen log is, and he divised

624
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:53.159
<v Speaker 2>the team into two parts. At that we were running

625
00:50:53.159 --> 00:50:55.920
<v Speaker 2>an eight man team, so they were three Americans and

626
00:50:55.960 --> 00:51:00.239
<v Speaker 2>the rest were mont Yards, three three mont Yards, So

627
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:08.679
<v Speaker 2>it was Saint Martin and I and two Martyards UH

628
00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:16.079
<v Speaker 2>up in the the front and the the second of

629
00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:22.519
<v Speaker 2>UH wave was to be our radio man with the

630
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:25.239
<v Speaker 2>two N seventy nine grenadiers and A and A and

631
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:32.559
<v Speaker 2>a third Montyard and the grenadiers were too bracket our

632
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:36.719
<v Speaker 2>our contested area with m you know h G while

633
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:43.559
<v Speaker 2>the first wave you know, assaulted this building. Uh. And

634
00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:47.199
<v Speaker 2>just at that point, so John and I were up

635
00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:52.039
<v Speaker 2>at the up at that log and we booth, both

636
00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:59.480
<v Speaker 2>pulled pins on grenades, uh and getting ready to assault

637
00:51:59.559 --> 00:52:05.079
<v Speaker 2>the building. And John stepped over the log and just

638
00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:09.360
<v Speaker 2>out at that point, out of the corner of my eye,

639
00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:13.320
<v Speaker 2>I saw a squad of MVA infantry with their weapons

640
00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:17.880
<v Speaker 2>at high port, walking along the periphery of this cleared area,

641
00:52:18.440 --> 00:52:23.280
<v Speaker 2>pretending that they didn't see us, but they did, and

642
00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:30.000
<v Speaker 2>they hit us on the flank and John fortunately threw

643
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:35.280
<v Speaker 2>his grenade and then fell back from stepping over the log.

644
00:52:36.199 --> 00:52:39.920
<v Speaker 2>I threw my grenade and opened fire on this squad

645
00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:45.360
<v Speaker 2>of MVA. John had been hit three times. He had

646
00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:48.320
<v Speaker 2>been hit in the ankle. If you know anything about

647
00:52:48.360 --> 00:52:51.320
<v Speaker 2>an AK, it has a muzzle rise as it fires,

648
00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:55.320
<v Speaker 2>so it rises up and to the left, because the

649
00:52:55.320 --> 00:53:00.519
<v Speaker 2>ejection porter is on the right. Would hit him in

650
00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:05.679
<v Speaker 2>the ankle, hit him in the leg and then sliced

651
00:53:05.719 --> 00:53:10.199
<v Speaker 2>across his ad to him and which emptied his intestines. Oh,

652
00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:20.079
<v Speaker 2>my god, to the ground uh and uh so uh

653
00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Fortunately we were sheltered by the UH, by the log

654
00:53:25.159 --> 00:53:30.679
<v Speaker 2>and my firing and possibly the firing of the the

655
00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:34.280
<v Speaker 2>grenadiers had knocked out some some of the NBA squad

656
00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:41.440
<v Speaker 2>uh so uh. I had not been trained how to

657
00:53:41.519 --> 00:53:45.280
<v Speaker 2>administer morphine, but John was in extreme pain. He was

658
00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:54.199
<v Speaker 2>screaming and hollering, which of course pinpointed us the team leader. UH.

659
00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:56.840
<v Speaker 2>In sag recon teams always called what was called the

660
00:53:56.960 --> 00:54:07.039
<v Speaker 2>one zero kit, which had medicines tetracycling uh, the modal uh,

661
00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:10.320
<v Speaker 2>the cure chrome, all this kind of ship and uh

662
00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:15.519
<v Speaker 2>and also had the morphine ceretes in them. And I

663
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:21.880
<v Speaker 2>wasn't taught how to use the morphine cerettes. Uh. And

664
00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:31.400
<v Speaker 2>uh this was like my maybe my fourth operation on

665
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:37.559
<v Speaker 2>the ground. And everybody who went to uh to sag

666
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:42.159
<v Speaker 2>to the sag fobs who were too who were destined

667
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:47.000
<v Speaker 2>for recon or exploition exploitation force were supposed to go

668
00:54:47.039 --> 00:54:50.360
<v Speaker 2>through the one zero course a long time, and uh,

669
00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:54.960
<v Speaker 2>they forgot about me. So I it might have been

670
00:54:55.360 --> 00:54:58.679
<v Speaker 2>that I missed that course on the serettes because I

671
00:54:58.719 --> 00:55:02.039
<v Speaker 2>was I never went to long time everybody else went

672
00:55:02.679 --> 00:55:06.039
<v Speaker 2>for some reason they missed me at any rate. I

673
00:55:06.079 --> 00:55:11.920
<v Speaker 2>tried to mister the morphine and and it wouldn't eject H.

674
00:55:12.559 --> 00:55:14.719
<v Speaker 2>And John was still carrying on and screaming and shit,

675
00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:19.119
<v Speaker 2>And I said, all right, enough of this. I took

676
00:55:19.159 --> 00:55:21.719
<v Speaker 2>his intestines. I piled him back on top of his

677
00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:30.639
<v Speaker 2>ad abdomen, tucked his undershirt in, and tightened down his

678
00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:39.519
<v Speaker 2>belt to contain his intestines. Uh. And then I UH,

679
00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:43.760
<v Speaker 2>I got his his rucksack and gave it to one

680
00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Montyard to carry, gave his weapon too another Montiard to carry,

681
00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:51.239
<v Speaker 2>and gave his webyeard to another Montyard to carry. And

682
00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:54.480
<v Speaker 2>then for the remaining people I had you know. I

683
00:55:54.679 --> 00:56:00.400
<v Speaker 2>tried to get them to help me drag Saying Martin

684
00:56:00.519 --> 00:56:04.000
<v Speaker 2>to an LZ, which was the dead the area of

685
00:56:04.039 --> 00:56:09.599
<v Speaker 2>de dead bamboo from whence we came. And it turns

686
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:13.199
<v Speaker 2>out that Montyards could carry a load equivalent to that

687
00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:21.480
<v Speaker 2>of an American any day. They were really small in stature,

688
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:26.320
<v Speaker 2>but they could really carry a lot of weight. But

689
00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:31.800
<v Speaker 2>their upper body strength was absolutely terrible, and they couldn't

690
00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:37.719
<v Speaker 2>They couldn't carry a Saint Martin and they couldn't drag him.

691
00:56:38.119 --> 00:56:43.719
<v Speaker 2>So I wound up dragging him back to the to

692
00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:47.079
<v Speaker 2>the l Z, and we were just reached the LZ

693
00:56:49.159 --> 00:56:52.000
<v Speaker 2>just as my strength ran out. I mean, he outweighed

694
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.159
<v Speaker 2>me by thirty forty pounds, and it was just.

695
00:56:56.280 --> 00:56:58.199
<v Speaker 1>How far how far did you have to drag him?

696
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:05.639
<v Speaker 2>Oh, thirty meters forty meters something like that. I was

697
00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:09.519
<v Speaker 2>dragging him by the I couldn't put him in a

698
00:57:09.519 --> 00:57:16.800
<v Speaker 2>fireman's carry because of his intestines, you know stuff, And

699
00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:21.039
<v Speaker 2>so I dragged him and all this while he's he's

700
00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:23.920
<v Speaker 2>coming in and out of consciousness, and every time he's conscious,

701
00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:26.960
<v Speaker 2>he's you know, he's screaming out in pain and stuff

702
00:57:26.960 --> 00:57:35.840
<v Speaker 2>like that. So we get in you know, about ten

703
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:42.199
<v Speaker 2>fifteen meters inside the uh the bamboo, and two of

704
00:57:42.199 --> 00:57:51.719
<v Speaker 2>them Montyards had their street smarts about them, and they

705
00:57:52.119 --> 00:57:57.239
<v Speaker 2>went along the periphery of the dead bamboo where there

706
00:57:57.239 --> 00:58:00.320
<v Speaker 2>was some live bamboo, and they shook the bambo who

707
00:58:02.199 --> 00:58:05.360
<v Speaker 2>away from where Saint Martin was to distract the enemy,

708
00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:09.119
<v Speaker 2>away from where Saint Martin was moaning and groaning and

709
00:58:09.159 --> 00:58:12.159
<v Speaker 2>where the rest of the team was, and and attracted

710
00:58:12.400 --> 00:58:18.000
<v Speaker 2>the firing towards where the bamboo was being shaken. So

711
00:58:18.079 --> 00:58:21.239
<v Speaker 2>we called, you know, an emergency for an emergency extraction.

712
00:58:21.320 --> 00:58:31.000
<v Speaker 2>And by now it was dusk uh and uh uh uh.

713
00:58:32.119 --> 00:58:36.519
<v Speaker 2>We had a Ford Air controller by the name of

714
00:58:36.599 --> 00:58:39.800
<v Speaker 2>Don Fulton, a captain, and he had a Covey rider

715
00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:45.119
<v Speaker 2>which was a senior n c O and he's seven

716
00:58:46.679 --> 00:58:52.880
<v Speaker 2>uh and uh who was hitting in the back seat.

717
00:58:56.079 --> 00:59:02.840
<v Speaker 2>And we started taking fire and and uh. So the

718
00:59:02.840 --> 00:59:08.199
<v Speaker 2>the pilot had had four rockets under his slung under

719
00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:15.000
<v Speaker 2>his wings uh and uh most of them were uh.

720
00:59:16.679 --> 00:59:19.079
<v Speaker 2>They all were as a matter of fact, white phosphorus.

721
00:59:21.039 --> 00:59:24.679
<v Speaker 2>So he did strafing runs with these rockets and fired

722
00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:29.480
<v Speaker 2>them into the into where these where the fire, the

723
00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:34.440
<v Speaker 2>weapons fire was coming from. And at dusk. He could

724
00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:39.639
<v Speaker 2>now see the muzzle flashes from these weapons, and he

725
00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:42.960
<v Speaker 2>estimated that we had a company closing in on us

726
00:59:43.840 --> 00:59:46.480
<v Speaker 2>based on the amount of fire. They weren't just firing

727
00:59:46.519 --> 00:59:48.480
<v Speaker 2>at us, they were firing up at him because he

728
00:59:48.599 --> 00:59:54.280
<v Speaker 2>was making low passes. They ran out of rockets. So

729
00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:57.480
<v Speaker 2>the n c O, who was sitting in the back

730
00:59:57.519 --> 01:00:00.880
<v Speaker 2>of the aircraft opened the window and was firing his

731
01:00:01.039 --> 01:00:05.039
<v Speaker 2>M sixteen out the window at the enemy as they

732
01:00:05.039 --> 01:00:11.639
<v Speaker 2>were closing and the fire, the amount of fire that

733
01:00:11.679 --> 01:00:15.639
<v Speaker 2>they were taking as they were doing these strafing runs

734
01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:19.000
<v Speaker 2>was increasing increasing, And then they said, you got a

735
01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:25.400
<v Speaker 2>battalion coming at you, and he had summoned, of course,

736
01:00:25.519 --> 01:00:32.199
<v Speaker 2>air assets. And by the time they got there, it

737
01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:40.360
<v Speaker 2>was starting to rain and it was dark, and the

738
01:00:40.400 --> 01:00:45.079
<v Speaker 2>first helicopter came in and they had to turn their

739
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:51.760
<v Speaker 2>landing lights on in order to see us and to

740
01:00:51.800 --> 01:00:53.599
<v Speaker 2>see how close they were to the ground and to

741
01:00:53.679 --> 01:00:57.239
<v Speaker 2>the bamboo, which made them a perfect target, and they

742
01:00:57.280 --> 01:01:03.960
<v Speaker 2>started taking all kinds of hits. Now we at that

743
01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:08.039
<v Speaker 2>at that point the helicopters would not land because of

744
01:01:08.039 --> 01:01:15.360
<v Speaker 2>the because of the bamboo. So uh at that point

745
01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:19.760
<v Speaker 2>in time, we were using an extraction rig called the

746
01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:26.400
<v Speaker 2>Hanson rig, and what it was was a a twelve

747
01:01:26.440 --> 01:01:33.639
<v Speaker 2>to sixteen foot length of one and a half inch

748
01:01:37.639 --> 01:01:41.760
<v Speaker 2>one and a half inch webbing with a very stout

749
01:01:41.800 --> 01:01:44.719
<v Speaker 2>buckle on it. It was used for, you know, to

750
01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:49.760
<v Speaker 2>tie down cargo on aircraft palates and stuff like that.

751
01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:54.719
<v Speaker 2>And we found a way to use those which which

752
01:01:55.920 --> 01:02:00.320
<v Speaker 2>if properly donned, could basically create kind of like a

753
01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:06.000
<v Speaker 2>a basket arrangement so that you wouldn't fall out of

754
01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:11.079
<v Speaker 2>a handsome rig unless you actually tried, and so we

755
01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:17.679
<v Speaker 2>used those. At that point it had replaced something was

756
01:02:17.719 --> 01:02:23.159
<v Speaker 2>called the McGuire rig, and the McGuire rig was simply

757
01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:27.519
<v Speaker 2>a loop, a padded loop that you would sit on,

758
01:02:28.400 --> 01:02:34.920
<v Speaker 2>and we lost a pilot that had been rescued because

759
01:02:35.119 --> 01:02:36.880
<v Speaker 2>he didn't know how to use it. He thought it

760
01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:39.719
<v Speaker 2>was like the CIA rescue where you put it under

761
01:02:39.719 --> 01:02:42.960
<v Speaker 2>your arms. He had to sit on it. He fell

762
01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:48.480
<v Speaker 2>out of that, you know, the circulation was cut off,

763
01:02:48.519 --> 01:02:49.800
<v Speaker 2>and he just fell out of it while he was

764
01:02:49.840 --> 01:02:55.440
<v Speaker 2>being rescued and died anyway. So you were supposed to

765
01:02:57.360 --> 01:03:00.800
<v Speaker 2>rig these up and carry them on your web gear,

766
01:03:02.199 --> 01:03:11.039
<v Speaker 2>hooked onto your web gear with a carabiner, and mine

767
01:03:11.079 --> 01:03:13.559
<v Speaker 2>was all hooked up. It was you know, the webbing

768
01:03:13.760 --> 01:03:17.679
<v Speaker 2>was cut, you know, set to the my length from

769
01:03:17.679 --> 01:03:24.239
<v Speaker 2>my shoulders down to my feet. Uh and and was

770
01:03:24.320 --> 01:03:28.880
<v Speaker 2>laced through this very robust steel buckle and was tied

771
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:31.159
<v Speaker 2>off and all that good stuff, and mine was ready

772
01:03:31.159 --> 01:03:35.199
<v Speaker 2>to go. Saint Martin had never rigged his his his

773
01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:38.920
<v Speaker 2>hands and ring, so it was just a sixteen foot

774
01:03:38.960 --> 01:03:44.679
<v Speaker 2>inch belt. Oh my god. So I gave Saint Martin

775
01:03:45.280 --> 01:03:50.000
<v Speaker 2>my stable rig and hooked him up. Uh. And when

776
01:03:50.039 --> 01:03:55.159
<v Speaker 2>the aircraft came in, they dropped ropes uh with the

777
01:03:55.880 --> 01:04:00.840
<v Speaker 2>loops in them at the bottom and at midway on

778
01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:07.440
<v Speaker 2>on the on the rope five eighths inch repelling rope effectively,

779
01:04:08.239 --> 01:04:12.039
<v Speaker 2>I hooked him into that and uh and three of

780
01:04:12.079 --> 01:04:21.119
<v Speaker 2>the other mont yards uh maybe four uh And I

781
01:04:21.239 --> 01:04:25.280
<v Speaker 2>charged them with, you know, taking care of John. And

782
01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:27.880
<v Speaker 2>he was still screaming bloody murder and stuff like that,

783
01:04:28.039 --> 01:04:32.159
<v Speaker 2>and that helicopter took off and that's when I found

784
01:04:32.199 --> 01:04:36.440
<v Speaker 2>out that John's that I I didn't have time enough

785
01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:42.000
<v Speaker 2>to rig the hansom rig to my dimensions, so I

786
01:04:42.079 --> 01:04:49.480
<v Speaker 2>tied it into a Swiss seat. Never do that, by

787
01:04:49.519 --> 01:04:55.400
<v Speaker 2>the way, if you can avoid it. Uh And uh.

788
01:04:56.119 --> 01:04:58.920
<v Speaker 2>And when the second ship came in again with landing

789
01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:05.559
<v Speaker 2>lights on and taking fire. Ah uh our our radio

790
01:05:05.639 --> 01:05:09.679
<v Speaker 2>man and the remaining montyard hooked on and I hooked

791
01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:19.599
<v Speaker 2>up the radio to another string uh and uh. As

792
01:05:19.639 --> 01:05:23.840
<v Speaker 2>the helicopter gained altitude, we started taking any aircraft fire

793
01:05:25.440 --> 01:05:28.000
<v Speaker 2>from twenty three mic mic and thirty seven mic mic

794
01:05:28.599 --> 01:05:32.440
<v Speaker 2>uh any aircraft fire, and it was starting to rain

795
01:05:32.559 --> 01:05:37.400
<v Speaker 2>like hell, and we saw the detonations of the U

796
01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:43.119
<v Speaker 2>of the any aircraft artillery built below us as we

797
01:05:43.119 --> 01:05:49.679
<v Speaker 2>were and the so we were flying back to our

798
01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:55.000
<v Speaker 2>launch site over all this rugged uh rainforest and mountains,

799
01:05:56.440 --> 01:05:58.960
<v Speaker 2>and I started feeling a lot of pain from the

800
01:06:02.239 --> 01:06:08.079
<v Speaker 2>from the webbing which had bound up and was really

801
01:06:08.119 --> 01:06:13.960
<v Speaker 2>slicing into my groin area. And at the same time

802
01:06:14.039 --> 01:06:16.880
<v Speaker 2>that was going on, I was dealing with that the

803
01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:25.039
<v Speaker 2>radio Prick seventy seven was flying out like a pendulum

804
01:06:25.039 --> 01:06:29.760
<v Speaker 2>in coming back and smacking me repeatedly. So I managed

805
01:06:29.800 --> 01:06:34.840
<v Speaker 2>to grab the radio, got a hold of the handset

806
01:06:35.679 --> 01:06:39.000
<v Speaker 2>and begged the pilot to set us down so that

807
01:06:39.079 --> 01:06:42.000
<v Speaker 2>I could because I was in pain and I was

808
01:06:42.039 --> 01:06:44.840
<v Speaker 2>afraid that my circulation we cut off and that I

809
01:06:44.840 --> 01:06:50.599
<v Speaker 2>would fall out of the harness. He refused to do that,

810
01:06:53.679 --> 01:07:03.559
<v Speaker 2>and we flew through a torrential rainstorm at the the op.

811
01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:06.800
<v Speaker 2>You know the cruising speed for the UH one D,

812
01:07:08.440 --> 01:07:10.679
<v Speaker 2>which is probably around one hundred and twenty miles an

813
01:07:10.679 --> 01:07:15.599
<v Speaker 2>hour something like that. So that was a you know,

814
01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:20.199
<v Speaker 2>kind of a complimenting, complimentary effect, the rain hitting you

815
01:07:20.320 --> 01:07:25.960
<v Speaker 2>at that speed while you were flying at one hundred

816
01:07:25.960 --> 01:07:31.519
<v Speaker 2>and twenty miles an hour. And the rain was so

817
01:07:32.079 --> 01:07:37.559
<v Speaker 2>heavy and cloud cover was so dense that Saint Martin's

818
01:07:37.559 --> 01:07:42.800
<v Speaker 2>helicopter entirely missed the UH the launch site and flew

819
01:07:42.880 --> 01:07:49.440
<v Speaker 2>all away to Contome Airfield. Oh my god. And they

820
01:07:49.519 --> 01:07:52.760
<v Speaker 2>landed and got Saint Martin loaded up on the helicopter.

821
01:07:54.199 --> 01:07:57.440
<v Speaker 2>They had a Chase medic with him, and they got

822
01:07:57.519 --> 01:08:01.000
<v Speaker 2>him to the Plaikoup hospital and they had to put

823
01:08:01.039 --> 01:08:03.159
<v Speaker 2>an enormous amount of blood into him just to save

824
01:08:03.239 --> 01:08:05.960
<v Speaker 2>his life. And they have that you know. Of course,

825
01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:08.000
<v Speaker 2>when they got him stable, they met it acted him

826
01:08:08.559 --> 01:08:15.480
<v Speaker 2>uh first to huh uh Okinawa and then to the States.

827
01:08:16.039 --> 01:08:21.119
<v Speaker 2>That round that hit his thigh shattered, his thigh bone,

828
01:08:21.840 --> 01:08:25.640
<v Speaker 2>his ankle was shattered, and of course you know his intestines,

829
01:08:27.039 --> 01:08:39.840
<v Speaker 2>you can you can imagine, and so my helicopter was

830
01:08:39.880 --> 01:08:47.159
<v Speaker 2>able to see the launch site airfield airstrip because there

831
01:08:47.239 --> 01:08:50.319
<v Speaker 2>was a jeep there that had its headlights on illuminating

832
01:08:50.359 --> 01:08:57.760
<v Speaker 2>the airstrip for them. So he comes in in the

833
01:08:57.840 --> 01:09:07.399
<v Speaker 2>usual flight pattern, and he came in too low, and

834
01:09:07.439 --> 01:09:20.399
<v Speaker 2>I hit the asphalt pretty hard, and then he started

835
01:09:20.479 --> 01:09:23.560
<v Speaker 2>dragging me all the way down the airstrip towards where

836
01:09:24.359 --> 01:09:28.359
<v Speaker 2>the launch site was, and I had this I looked

837
01:09:28.399 --> 01:09:36.239
<v Speaker 2>like a comet because something metal on my backpack was

838
01:09:36.319 --> 01:09:40.000
<v Speaker 2>dragging on the concrete and it's a shower of sparks

839
01:09:40.039 --> 01:09:44.279
<v Speaker 2>all around me, and their eyes laying on my back. Well,

840
01:09:44.359 --> 01:09:46.439
<v Speaker 2>this was going on. I'm looking up at the helicopter

841
01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:49.359
<v Speaker 2>and there's the crew chief looking out looking down at me,

842
01:09:50.399 --> 01:09:58.399
<v Speaker 2>and I'm going, you know, like you know what, you know,

843
01:09:58.439 --> 01:10:00.359
<v Speaker 2>what are you going to do about this kind of

844
01:10:00.359 --> 01:10:06.159
<v Speaker 2>a I'm sure he couldn't see my expression, but finally

845
01:10:07.479 --> 01:10:10.319
<v Speaker 2>he was able to communicate with the pilot, and the

846
01:10:10.680 --> 01:10:17.800
<v Speaker 2>pilot gained altitude to get me up off the asphalt

847
01:10:19.960 --> 01:10:23.079
<v Speaker 2>close to where the launchide was and then dropped me

848
01:10:23.119 --> 01:10:29.640
<v Speaker 2>like a sack of potatoes again on the asphalt. Well,

849
01:10:29.680 --> 01:10:33.359
<v Speaker 2>it turns out that this was the new commander of

850
01:10:33.399 --> 01:10:41.439
<v Speaker 2>the fifty fifty seven helicopter Company and this was his

851
01:10:41.640 --> 01:10:49.319
<v Speaker 2>cherry flight. So he was a he was a major,

852
01:10:52.279 --> 01:10:59.000
<v Speaker 2>and he was every time you take over a helicopter company,

853
01:10:59.079 --> 01:11:02.279
<v Speaker 2>you want to take a lead one one flight with them,

854
01:11:02.720 --> 01:11:08.680
<v Speaker 2>and particularly since this was uh a deep penetration operation,

855
01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:12.279
<v Speaker 2>he'd never been on one before. So this was this

856
01:11:12.439 --> 01:11:18.159
<v Speaker 2>was his cherry flight for uh FA Sad. And he

857
01:11:18.239 --> 01:11:20.800
<v Speaker 2>comes out of the the helicopter, runs over to me

858
01:11:21.039 --> 01:11:28.239
<v Speaker 2>and begs my forgiveness, and he said he had lost

859
01:11:25.920 --> 01:11:34.640
<v Speaker 2>uh ah, his between night vision, the glare of the

860
01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:40.319
<v Speaker 2>head headlights on the jeep. Uh and uh, he was,

861
01:11:42.039 --> 01:11:46.439
<v Speaker 2>he had lost the it's like depth perception, deep perception,

862
01:11:46.560 --> 01:11:50.079
<v Speaker 2>thank you very much. He lost depth perception. And it

863
01:11:50.119 --> 01:11:53.920
<v Speaker 2>was just uh. So he apologized all over the place,

864
01:11:53.960 --> 01:11:55.880
<v Speaker 2>and I said, don't worry about it. I'm happy to

865
01:11:55.920 --> 01:12:01.119
<v Speaker 2>be here kind of a thing. Uh. We were transported

866
01:12:01.159 --> 01:12:13.680
<v Speaker 2>back to to the FOB and we were met by

867
01:12:13.840 --> 01:12:20.479
<v Speaker 2>the new commander of Recon Company by the name of Gulay,

868
01:12:21.000 --> 01:12:30.319
<v Speaker 2>great guy, and the first sergeant which I think it

869
01:12:30.359 --> 01:12:35.880
<v Speaker 2>was DONI at that point, and the tradition for us

870
01:12:36.119 --> 01:12:40.479
<v Speaker 2>was you come off and op and you would be

871
01:12:40.520 --> 01:12:42.960
<v Speaker 2>taken to the miss hall and fed a steak dinner.

872
01:12:43.880 --> 01:12:46.760
<v Speaker 2>So they had to wake up the They had to

873
01:12:46.760 --> 01:12:48.920
<v Speaker 2>wake up the mess sergeant to cook us some steaks.

874
01:12:50.279 --> 01:12:54.760
<v Speaker 2>M and me. I. I was sitting at the table

875
01:12:54.880 --> 01:12:58.039
<v Speaker 2>with the commander and the first sergeant and John Blough

876
01:12:58.319 --> 01:13:01.520
<v Speaker 2>was sitting with me, and they wanted an account of

877
01:13:01.520 --> 01:13:06.039
<v Speaker 2>what had happened. Uh, and I gave them, you know,

878
01:13:06.199 --> 01:13:14.119
<v Speaker 2>the story, and then uh, it it kind of hit

879
01:13:14.199 --> 01:13:18.600
<v Speaker 2>me how ridiculous this whole thing was about an eight

880
01:13:18.680 --> 01:13:26.239
<v Speaker 2>man recon team attacking uh an NBA installation. And I

881
01:13:26.279 --> 01:13:33.279
<v Speaker 2>started laughing like crazy. Uh and uh. At some point,

882
01:13:33.520 --> 01:13:36.840
<v Speaker 2>uh Blow saw the humor in it too, and he

883
01:13:36.880 --> 01:13:40.640
<v Speaker 2>started laughing. But I caught a strange look between the

884
01:13:40.680 --> 01:13:44.119
<v Speaker 2>commander and the first argument, UH that I must have

885
01:13:44.439 --> 01:13:48.039
<v Speaker 2>must have gone off my rocker. But at that point

886
01:13:48.039 --> 01:13:50.960
<v Speaker 2>then I became the team leader of our two New.

887
01:13:50.880 --> 01:13:53.520
<v Speaker 1>York did uh did they finally send you to one

888
01:13:53.640 --> 01:13:54.279
<v Speaker 1>zero school?

889
01:13:55.199 --> 01:14:01.239
<v Speaker 2>Ever? Really it was Uh, I was into my I

890
01:14:01.239 --> 01:14:05.880
<v Speaker 2>I guess a year and a half point UH had

891
01:14:06.039 --> 01:14:11.319
<v Speaker 2>basically a full year as a one zero and uh

892
01:14:13.000 --> 01:14:17.479
<v Speaker 2>the first sergeant said, you know, I've been looking at

893
01:14:17.520 --> 01:14:21.880
<v Speaker 2>your your record. Did you you went to one zero school,

894
01:14:21.920 --> 01:14:25.640
<v Speaker 2>didn't you. I said no. He said, Jesus Christ, you

895
01:14:25.640 --> 01:14:30.279
<v Speaker 2>couldn't believe it. Uh, And I said, I'm not going now,

896
01:14:30.920 --> 01:14:36.880
<v Speaker 2>you know. And I have my own views about the

897
01:14:36.920 --> 01:14:39.600
<v Speaker 2>one zero course. I mean, this one zero course was

898
01:14:39.640 --> 01:14:47.720
<v Speaker 2>taught by former team leaders, but they wound up homesteady.

899
01:14:48.720 --> 01:14:52.640
<v Speaker 2>Uh and as the tactical situation on the ground changed,

900
01:14:53.920 --> 01:14:59.000
<v Speaker 2>they didn't and they So what you got out of

901
01:14:59.000 --> 01:15:04.159
<v Speaker 2>the one zero course was valuable, mind you, but it

902
01:15:04.199 --> 01:15:10.520
<v Speaker 2>was in my view of basic special reconnaissance course where

903
01:15:10.520 --> 01:15:13.920
<v Speaker 2>you got your advanced training was at the hands of

904
01:15:14.079 --> 01:15:17.600
<v Speaker 2>a multi tour team leader.

905
01:15:21.239 --> 01:15:23.960
<v Speaker 1>And what was it like for you running the team

906
01:15:24.000 --> 01:15:24.800
<v Speaker 1>from then on out?

907
01:15:28.159 --> 01:15:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Uh? It was interesting? Uh yeah from the get go. Uh.

908
01:15:36.119 --> 01:15:41.119
<v Speaker 2>The Montyards on the team had really loved Saint Martin.

909
01:15:41.439 --> 01:15:47.760
<v Speaker 2>He really could relate to them. They adored him his

910
01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:51.960
<v Speaker 2>physical presence, you know, you know, muscles, and you know,

911
01:15:52.720 --> 01:15:55.840
<v Speaker 2>always had a sense of humor about him. Uh. And

912
01:15:55.880 --> 01:16:03.279
<v Speaker 2>the Montyards absolutely loved them. And because he was so statuesque, ah,

913
01:16:03.560 --> 01:16:11.000
<v Speaker 2>they thought that he was, you know, invulnerable. Ah. And

914
01:16:11.279 --> 01:16:17.720
<v Speaker 2>Uh then I take over the team and I don't initially,

915
01:16:17.760 --> 01:16:25.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't enjoy the same ah relationship Ah And I

916
01:16:25.840 --> 01:16:30.920
<v Speaker 2>was more I love the yards and they and we

917
01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:34.399
<v Speaker 2>got along great, but not in the same sense, not

918
01:16:34.479 --> 01:16:37.399
<v Speaker 2>as close as the same Martin was with him, and

919
01:16:37.479 --> 01:16:44.359
<v Speaker 2>I was more directive in nature. Uh and uh uh

920
01:16:44.439 --> 01:16:54.039
<v Speaker 2>and I the first mission that we had was uh

921
01:16:58.239 --> 01:17:02.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of uh raised their level of concern about me.

922
01:17:07.760 --> 01:17:12.159
<v Speaker 2>So that first mission was at this At this point,

923
01:17:13.720 --> 01:17:17.319
<v Speaker 2>the first sergeant was guy by the name of Pappy Greenwood,

924
01:17:18.880 --> 01:17:21.880
<v Speaker 2>Master Sergeant good guy. He had been in the Provincial

925
01:17:21.920 --> 01:17:33.279
<v Speaker 2>Reconnaissance Unit under associated with Phoenix program and he came

926
01:17:33.319 --> 01:17:38.119
<v Speaker 2>to SOG and it was the first sergeant and uh

927
01:17:39.680 --> 01:17:44.520
<v Speaker 2>uh he uh. He said, we got a mission for you.

928
01:17:46.640 --> 01:17:49.680
<v Speaker 2>Right at that point, I was on bright light duty

929
01:17:49.880 --> 01:17:52.039
<v Speaker 2>and he called me back from bright light and said,

930
01:17:52.039 --> 01:17:53.840
<v Speaker 2>we've got a mission for you. That's the way it went.

931
01:17:55.720 --> 01:17:57.199
<v Speaker 2>He said, there's going to be a B fifty two

932
01:17:57.279 --> 01:18:05.119
<v Speaker 2>strike along the MSR and we're going to send you

933
01:18:05.199 --> 01:18:14.600
<v Speaker 2>in on a bomb damage assessment b d A. And

934
01:18:14.600 --> 01:18:16.479
<v Speaker 2>he said, you've never been on a b DA before,

935
01:18:16.600 --> 01:18:23.439
<v Speaker 2>so I'll tell you what what typically happens you land.

936
01:18:25.920 --> 01:18:32.319
<v Speaker 2>It's tough getting through all the tangle of trees that

937
01:18:32.359 --> 01:18:35.000
<v Speaker 2>have been tossed up by the B fifty two strikes,

938
01:18:37.199 --> 01:18:43.039
<v Speaker 2>you wind up spending nighting over and then commencing your

939
01:18:43.119 --> 01:18:52.560
<v Speaker 2>reconnaissance the following day. And he says, every time the

940
01:18:52.600 --> 01:18:56.840
<v Speaker 2>teams get run out of the target area before they

941
01:18:56.880 --> 01:19:02.199
<v Speaker 2>can accomplish the mission because the North three lads have

942
01:19:02.199 --> 01:19:04.720
<v Speaker 2>figured out where you are and they're waiting for you.

943
01:19:04.920 --> 01:19:09.239
<v Speaker 2>And they know that every after every beef it to

944
01:19:09.239 --> 01:19:12.000
<v Speaker 2>two strike, a BDA would follow, so they were always

945
01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:20.960
<v Speaker 2>waiting for us on a BDA. So H I said, okay, well,

946
01:19:21.800 --> 01:19:24.079
<v Speaker 2>why don't we do it this way? Why don't you

947
01:19:24.119 --> 01:19:28.800
<v Speaker 2>just land me on the beaten zone. I'll conduct my

948
01:19:28.840 --> 01:19:36.000
<v Speaker 2>recon right then and there, and then I'll get extracted

949
01:19:36.520 --> 01:19:41.760
<v Speaker 2>before nightfall, rather than landing outside the beaten zone, which

950
01:19:41.800 --> 01:19:47.079
<v Speaker 2>was the usual protocol, land me right there. And he

951
01:19:47.119 --> 01:19:52.439
<v Speaker 2>said he was really shocked at that suggestion, and he said,

952
01:19:52.439 --> 01:19:54.239
<v Speaker 2>are you sure you want to do it that way?

953
01:19:55.680 --> 01:19:59.680
<v Speaker 2>I said yes, and he said, all right, it's your call. UH,

954
01:20:00.520 --> 01:20:05.720
<v Speaker 2>And so we were inserted by a H thirty four

955
01:20:05.800 --> 01:20:17.079
<v Speaker 2>helicopter and UH landed down in this stream valley that

956
01:20:17.239 --> 01:20:25.199
<v Speaker 2>was at the foot of this ridge, and the MSR

957
01:20:25.840 --> 01:20:29.439
<v Speaker 2>followed along at the base basically at the base of

958
01:20:29.479 --> 01:20:36.520
<v Speaker 2>this ridge towards the triborder area, and it was an

959
01:20:36.560 --> 01:20:39.840
<v Speaker 2>all it was an all weather road and was vital

960
01:20:39.880 --> 01:20:45.920
<v Speaker 2>to the enemy. So we landed there and we scaled

961
01:20:46.000 --> 01:20:49.439
<v Speaker 2>up the side of this ridge to get on top

962
01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:54.800
<v Speaker 2>of the road, and I started taking pictures, and there

963
01:20:54.840 --> 01:20:58.920
<v Speaker 2>was bunkers along the side of the road for North

964
01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:02.039
<v Speaker 2>Viet meats to take shelter from air attack and whatnot.

965
01:21:03.800 --> 01:21:07.880
<v Speaker 2>We walked a kilometer in the open along the road

966
01:21:08.199 --> 01:21:12.159
<v Speaker 2>after B fifty two strike had cleaned out all the vegetation,

967
01:21:12.479 --> 01:21:18.359
<v Speaker 2>so anybody who was on a ridge on the other

968
01:21:18.439 --> 01:21:20.640
<v Speaker 2>side of the beaten area of the other side of

969
01:21:20.680 --> 01:21:24.920
<v Speaker 2>the stream valley could have seen us very easily, but

970
01:21:25.000 --> 01:21:31.279
<v Speaker 2>they but nothing happened untoward. And we got to a

971
01:21:33.079 --> 01:21:36.479
<v Speaker 2>to a point in the road which kind of formed

972
01:21:36.479 --> 01:21:42.680
<v Speaker 2>the loop around a finger of this ridge, and I

973
01:21:42.720 --> 01:21:49.560
<v Speaker 2>sad and my montyards were getting extremely nervous, and my

974
01:21:49.640 --> 01:21:54.840
<v Speaker 2>point man kept on drifting back so that I so

975
01:21:54.920 --> 01:21:56.600
<v Speaker 2>that I got the message that he didn't want to

976
01:21:56.640 --> 01:22:02.239
<v Speaker 2>go any further, and so I decided that we would

977
01:22:03.359 --> 01:22:05.680
<v Speaker 2>climb this ridge and get to the top of the

978
01:22:05.880 --> 01:22:11.880
<v Speaker 2>to the ridge and get some more perspective, which is

979
01:22:11.880 --> 01:22:14.119
<v Speaker 2>what we did. And we got up to the top

980
01:22:14.159 --> 01:22:21.680
<v Speaker 2>of the ridge and there was this bomb crater from

981
01:22:21.720 --> 01:22:25.960
<v Speaker 2>a five hundred pound bomb right where that finger was,

982
01:22:28.399 --> 01:22:34.319
<v Speaker 2>and some trees had been knocked out, knocked off around there,

983
01:22:34.479 --> 01:22:38.359
<v Speaker 2>but this bomb crater. We looked at the bottom bomb

984
01:22:38.359 --> 01:22:45.039
<v Speaker 2>crater and there was a tunnel. It had breached the tunnel,

985
01:22:45.039 --> 01:22:53.760
<v Speaker 2>a top of a tunnel, And that gives me remind

986
01:22:53.760 --> 01:22:58.560
<v Speaker 2>me to come back to this this tunnel issue, because

987
01:22:58.600 --> 01:23:02.680
<v Speaker 2>it gets back to the intelligence issue that I mentioned

988
01:23:02.720 --> 01:23:13.479
<v Speaker 2>earlier on in the conversation. So so I say to

989
01:23:13.640 --> 01:23:18.840
<v Speaker 2>my one of my grenadiers that I wanted him to

990
01:23:18.880 --> 01:23:23.319
<v Speaker 2>go down into the tunnel because he was not only

991
01:23:23.399 --> 01:23:27.039
<v Speaker 2>armed with a with a M seventy nine grenade launcher,

992
01:23:27.079 --> 01:23:31.600
<v Speaker 2>but he also was carrying a forty five pistol and

993
01:23:31.640 --> 01:23:37.920
<v Speaker 2>I had a flashlight for him. And he refuses, so

994
01:23:37.960 --> 01:23:41.560
<v Speaker 2>I decide I'll do it. I'd take his forty five

995
01:23:41.640 --> 01:23:43.800
<v Speaker 2>and I go down into the to the bottom of

996
01:23:43.800 --> 01:23:50.079
<v Speaker 2>the crater and go into the into this this tunnel

997
01:23:50.119 --> 01:23:54.840
<v Speaker 2>has been exposed, and I'm there with my flashlight and

998
01:23:54.960 --> 01:23:58.760
<v Speaker 2>my forty five and I'm crawling into the around in

999
01:23:58.800 --> 01:24:03.479
<v Speaker 2>this tunnel and come to a point where there'd been

1000
01:24:03.520 --> 01:24:08.520
<v Speaker 2>a cave in, and I couldn't go any further, so

1001
01:24:08.600 --> 01:24:10.319
<v Speaker 2>I was contemplated what I was going to do next.

1002
01:24:10.399 --> 01:24:15.479
<v Speaker 2>Just then I get a shout from my assistant team

1003
01:24:15.520 --> 01:24:26.359
<v Speaker 2>leader saying nvah and uh, so I have I can't

1004
01:24:26.359 --> 01:24:29.600
<v Speaker 2>turn around, so I wind up scooting back until I

1005
01:24:30.840 --> 01:24:37.600
<v Speaker 2>get even with the opening and uh. I get a

1006
01:24:37.640 --> 01:24:41.079
<v Speaker 2>hand up and we all get into the bomb crater

1007
01:24:41.800 --> 01:24:44.720
<v Speaker 2>and uh. They tell me where they see these see

1008
01:24:44.720 --> 01:24:49.399
<v Speaker 2>the NVA the NVA had crossed. They say it was

1009
01:24:49.439 --> 01:24:52.920
<v Speaker 2>an NVA squad that had crossed the beaten zone for

1010
01:24:53.039 --> 01:24:55.199
<v Speaker 2>the beef at the juice strike and was now on

1011
01:24:55.279 --> 01:25:00.600
<v Speaker 2>our side of the road and on the ridge where

1012
01:25:00.640 --> 01:25:05.960
<v Speaker 2>we were, but at some distance. So I said, all right,

1013
01:25:06.600 --> 01:25:09.159
<v Speaker 2>that's enough. I've gotten all the photos that I that

1014
01:25:09.239 --> 01:25:15.840
<v Speaker 2>I need. I take another photos from this elevation. Not

1015
01:25:15.920 --> 01:25:19.600
<v Speaker 2>a single bomb from the two struck strike had had

1016
01:25:19.720 --> 01:25:25.239
<v Speaker 2>had hit the road, not a single one, which was

1017
01:25:25.239 --> 01:25:33.199
<v Speaker 2>disappointing to me. So I called for an extraction and

1018
01:25:33.720 --> 01:25:36.720
<v Speaker 2>they send again the H thirty four to pick us up,

1019
01:25:37.600 --> 01:25:40.920
<v Speaker 2>and the blade length was such that they could not

1020
01:25:44.640 --> 01:25:50.000
<v Speaker 2>land or even get close to this finger that was

1021
01:25:50.039 --> 01:25:55.319
<v Speaker 2>on the ridge. So the Ford air controller directed us

1022
01:25:55.359 --> 01:25:59.680
<v Speaker 2>to another open area that was further along the ridge.

1023
01:26:03.199 --> 01:26:09.159
<v Speaker 2>That open area was separated from my open area by

1024
01:26:08.800 --> 01:26:16.920
<v Speaker 2>a finger of you know, a ansmiss of vegetation. Now,

1025
01:26:16.960 --> 01:26:19.239
<v Speaker 2>I had tried to knock down a tree with a

1026
01:26:19.319 --> 01:26:23.199
<v Speaker 2>claymore and all it did was knock off the bark

1027
01:26:23.720 --> 01:26:30.159
<v Speaker 2>from the tree. So that wasn't a solution. So I

1028
01:26:30.199 --> 01:26:33.960
<v Speaker 2>tell the point man who was big fan of John

1029
01:26:34.039 --> 01:26:37.520
<v Speaker 2>Saint Martin. His name was Jerong and he had a

1030
01:26:37.520 --> 01:26:39.640
<v Speaker 2>brother on the team. It was one of my ends

1031
01:26:39.680 --> 01:26:43.720
<v Speaker 2>seventy nine guys, I said, I point him and I said,

1032
01:26:44.319 --> 01:26:49.960
<v Speaker 2>we go there, l Z over there, And as soon

1033
01:26:50.000 --> 01:26:55.359
<v Speaker 2>as we get inside the green verge, he takes off

1034
01:26:55.439 --> 01:27:00.359
<v Speaker 2>running in a panic, trying to get to the LZ

1035
01:27:00.560 --> 01:27:04.039
<v Speaker 2>to get the hell out of there. And I then

1036
01:27:04.119 --> 01:27:11.680
<v Speaker 2>become the point man, and I'm really pissed off. Uh,

1037
01:27:12.039 --> 01:27:14.880
<v Speaker 2>And you know, we get we get through this this

1038
01:27:15.159 --> 01:27:19.439
<v Speaker 2>green patch and we wind up where the the C

1039
01:27:19.760 --> 01:27:29.119
<v Speaker 2>thirty four had enough room to pick us up. And uh,

1040
01:27:29.159 --> 01:27:33.520
<v Speaker 2>my interpreter taps me on the shoulder and says, one

1041
01:27:33.520 --> 01:27:39.399
<v Speaker 2>of the montyards says, there's n v A. There were

1042
01:27:41.279 --> 01:27:50.880
<v Speaker 2>in an ambush and an ambush position that we just

1043
01:27:51.039 --> 01:27:54.960
<v Speaker 2>walked right past them and they were pointing their weapons

1044
01:27:54.960 --> 01:28:00.239
<v Speaker 2>at us, and the Montyard pretended as though he didn't

1045
01:28:00.239 --> 01:28:02.960
<v Speaker 2>see them, because he was afraid that if he acknowledged

1046
01:28:03.000 --> 01:28:06.920
<v Speaker 2>them and started a firefight, that they had to drop

1047
01:28:06.960 --> 01:28:12.279
<v Speaker 2>on us and would wipe us out. The reason why

1048
01:28:12.359 --> 01:28:16.640
<v Speaker 2>those NVA did not open up their ambush on us

1049
01:28:16.880 --> 01:28:22.840
<v Speaker 2>was because we had Cobra Cobra aircraft flying overhead and

1050
01:28:22.880 --> 01:28:25.560
<v Speaker 2>they were and they had just suffered a B fifty

1051
01:28:25.560 --> 01:28:28.680
<v Speaker 2>two strike, so they were they were not they didn't

1052
01:28:28.720 --> 01:28:33.760
<v Speaker 2>want to invite a fight. Well, that pissed me off

1053
01:28:34.520 --> 01:28:38.600
<v Speaker 2>because it could have gone all wrong. He should have

1054
01:28:38.640 --> 01:28:45.479
<v Speaker 2>opened fire on them. And because the if they had

1055
01:28:45.479 --> 01:28:51.960
<v Speaker 2>been able to initiate the ambush without us initiating first, uh,

1056
01:28:52.760 --> 01:28:55.239
<v Speaker 2>it would be a you know, a gunfight at six

1057
01:28:55.680 --> 01:28:59.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, the OK Corral kind of a situation. Uh.

1058
01:29:00.640 --> 01:29:05.399
<v Speaker 2>Better to initiate the gunfight than to, you know, let

1059
01:29:05.399 --> 01:29:10.479
<v Speaker 2>them have have first shot. That was my view. And anyway,

1060
01:29:11.880 --> 01:29:15.079
<v Speaker 2>got back to the to the fob and I was

1061
01:29:15.079 --> 01:29:18.560
<v Speaker 2>going to fire the point man and his and his

1062
01:29:18.640 --> 01:29:24.279
<v Speaker 2>brother just a pointment. Actually he beat me to it.

1063
01:29:24.640 --> 01:29:29.000
<v Speaker 2>He quit and his brother went with him. And that's

1064
01:29:29.039 --> 01:29:32.119
<v Speaker 2>why it was my first inkling that my team was

1065
01:29:32.119 --> 01:29:37.000
<v Speaker 2>a little concerned about my acceptance of risk, you know.

1066
01:29:37.920 --> 01:29:45.039
<v Speaker 2>And but I had always tried to measure the risk

1067
01:29:45.279 --> 01:29:59.239
<v Speaker 2>against uh opportunity uh and uh and way the the

1068
01:29:59.279 --> 01:30:05.039
<v Speaker 2>odds other thing based on experience. So to circle back

1069
01:30:05.079 --> 01:30:09.439
<v Speaker 2>to this intelligence issue. Yes, so my next operation was

1070
01:30:09.479 --> 01:30:16.399
<v Speaker 2>in the same vicinity. And I'm not gonna talk about

1071
01:30:16.399 --> 01:30:20.840
<v Speaker 2>that operation right now, Listen, you asked me to. But

1072
01:30:23.079 --> 01:30:27.359
<v Speaker 2>suffice to say that operation with Saint Martin and I

1073
01:30:27.439 --> 01:30:34.039
<v Speaker 2>discovered a major what apparently was not a logistics facility,

1074
01:30:34.079 --> 01:30:40.960
<v Speaker 2>but a major headquarters. These log structures. A regimental headquarters

1075
01:30:41.000 --> 01:30:45.800
<v Speaker 2>would be constructed of bamboo, a major headquarters be constructed

1076
01:30:45.840 --> 01:30:50.560
<v Speaker 2>a log semi permanent kind of a thing. I reasoned

1077
01:30:50.560 --> 01:30:53.840
<v Speaker 2>that out. When we came back from an op, we

1078
01:30:53.880 --> 01:30:56.079
<v Speaker 2>would go to the S two to get a debriefing,

1079
01:30:57.039 --> 01:31:03.760
<v Speaker 2>and we described these these structures. We described how, you know,

1080
01:31:03.800 --> 01:31:07.560
<v Speaker 2>the how well kept this whole area was, and how

1081
01:31:07.800 --> 01:31:11.920
<v Speaker 2>was how was sheltered by the terrain, and how was

1082
01:31:11.960 --> 01:31:17.439
<v Speaker 2>sheltered by uh the canopy h And you know, gave

1083
01:31:17.479 --> 01:31:22.039
<v Speaker 2>them all, you know, everything that I could, uh the

1084
01:31:22.079 --> 01:31:28.479
<v Speaker 2>divine from from the operation. And they never went back

1085
01:31:28.520 --> 01:31:40.159
<v Speaker 2>in S two or the the Intel office at Sog

1086
01:31:41.640 --> 01:31:48.119
<v Speaker 2>could not make the connection, uh, that this was more

1087
01:31:48.159 --> 01:31:53.800
<v Speaker 2>than just something out in the woods, you know, like, uh,

1088
01:31:54.199 --> 01:31:59.439
<v Speaker 2>you know logistics, and Saint Martin hadn't taken a photo so,

1089
01:32:00.720 --> 01:32:03.479
<v Speaker 2>which he should have done, definitely should have done. That

1090
01:32:03.520 --> 01:32:07.479
<v Speaker 2>would have validated everything we were saying about it. But anyway,

1091
01:32:08.520 --> 01:32:17.399
<v Speaker 2>then the second mission, I find an underground tunnel. Now

1092
01:32:19.560 --> 01:32:25.560
<v Speaker 2>you report an underground tunnel to headquarters. That's back in Vietnam,

1093
01:32:25.680 --> 01:32:29.319
<v Speaker 2>and that's fairly commonplace. That was commonplace in Vietnam, but

1094
01:32:29.359 --> 01:32:33.800
<v Speaker 2>the North Vietnamese owned the entire length of the Hochiman Trail.

1095
01:32:35.680 --> 01:32:39.279
<v Speaker 2>They had no need to build tunnels go to that effort.

1096
01:32:39.840 --> 01:32:46.079
<v Speaker 2>What was there in that tunnel that was required such care?

1097
01:32:50.520 --> 01:32:54.920
<v Speaker 2>So it was something spectacular to me. It was not

1098
01:32:54.960 --> 01:33:00.600
<v Speaker 2>so spectacular to an Intel analyst beck ATSOG headquarters who

1099
01:33:00.600 --> 01:33:03.359
<v Speaker 2>had never been on the ground, who did not connect

1100
01:33:03.359 --> 01:33:06.520
<v Speaker 2>the dots that this was an anomaly that you did

1101
01:33:06.560 --> 01:33:11.800
<v Speaker 2>not see in Laos but did see in South Vietnam.

1102
01:33:12.239 --> 01:33:14.640
<v Speaker 2>The third mission was in the same area again, Tango

1103
01:33:14.720 --> 01:33:20.239
<v Speaker 2>seven and I discovered on one side of a river,

1104
01:33:20.439 --> 01:33:29.199
<v Speaker 2>a north south river, a set of high speed trails

1105
01:33:29.600 --> 01:33:34.039
<v Speaker 2>heading towards Cambodia. On the other side of that river,

1106
01:33:35.479 --> 01:33:43.960
<v Speaker 2>I discovered a hidden road. So when I get back

1107
01:33:43.960 --> 01:33:49.720
<v Speaker 2>from the operation again, I get debriefed and I tell

1108
01:33:49.760 --> 01:33:53.800
<v Speaker 2>them this time this kind of stuff, and no one

1109
01:33:53.840 --> 01:34:00.640
<v Speaker 2>seems to connect the dots because this is another route

1110
01:34:01.039 --> 01:34:08.000
<v Speaker 2>from the MSR into Cambodia, and no one is recounting

1111
01:34:08.039 --> 01:34:13.680
<v Speaker 2>that area to find out where it leads. You know,

1112
01:34:14.520 --> 01:34:18.399
<v Speaker 2>what encampents lie along that river, along those trails and

1113
01:34:18.479 --> 01:34:24.319
<v Speaker 2>roads and all that other kind of stuff. And so

1114
01:34:24.439 --> 01:34:26.319
<v Speaker 2>there was no follow up to the kinds of things

1115
01:34:26.359 --> 01:34:31.920
<v Speaker 2>that we discovered, which was appalling because what we were reconed, right,

1116
01:34:33.239 --> 01:34:36.359
<v Speaker 2>we were supposed to discover this kind of stuff and

1117
01:34:36.399 --> 01:34:39.439
<v Speaker 2>then we expected some sort of follow up, some sort

1118
01:34:39.479 --> 01:34:44.479
<v Speaker 2>of action when it was discovered, and it wasn't happening.

1119
01:34:44.680 --> 01:34:47.239
<v Speaker 1>What do you think led to that analytical failure on

1120
01:34:47.359 --> 01:34:50.760
<v Speaker 1>the S two side.

1121
01:34:51.399 --> 01:34:55.640
<v Speaker 2>Some of the So the way I reasoned that this

1122
01:34:55.800 --> 01:35:03.600
<v Speaker 2>out subsequently was and I'll make an analogy here. So

1123
01:35:06.119 --> 01:35:15.479
<v Speaker 2>during the the hunt for Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan,

1124
01:35:18.439 --> 01:35:23.840
<v Speaker 2>we had special operators who were teamed with CIA analysts

1125
01:35:28.119 --> 01:35:33.399
<v Speaker 2>because whoever the leadership was at that point in time

1126
01:35:33.439 --> 01:35:37.760
<v Speaker 2>in the CIA realized that the analysts didn't know what

1127
01:35:37.760 --> 01:35:47.439
<v Speaker 2>they were looking at, but the operators did, so if

1128
01:35:47.439 --> 01:35:55.520
<v Speaker 2>something was an anomaly, the the analysts wouldn't know if

1129
01:35:55.520 --> 01:35:59.239
<v Speaker 2>it's an anomaly unless the operator told them, he said, oh,

1130
01:36:00.199 --> 01:36:04.640
<v Speaker 2>this is something unusual, this is something that bears, you know,

1131
01:36:04.800 --> 01:36:09.399
<v Speaker 2>a second look, et cetera, et cetera. An example would

1132
01:36:09.439 --> 01:36:19.560
<v Speaker 2>be UH, the Russians and probably the Chinese, it's certainly

1133
01:36:20.279 --> 01:36:27.560
<v Speaker 2>uh so the Soviets and and the Russians in Ukraine.

1134
01:36:28.640 --> 01:36:35.319
<v Speaker 2>UH would use penal battalions the Russians during civil war,

1135
01:36:36.399 --> 01:36:44.600
<v Speaker 2>and these were criminals or deserters or slackerts UH who

1136
01:36:44.680 --> 01:36:48.359
<v Speaker 2>refused to fight and they were sent to penal battalion.

1137
01:36:48.439 --> 01:36:54.520
<v Speaker 2>Penal battalions were used as they were suicide units. They

1138
01:36:54.560 --> 01:36:57.239
<v Speaker 2>were they were the point the end of the spear

1139
01:36:58.520 --> 01:37:02.159
<v Speaker 2>UH to draw fire, and they were sent they were

1140
01:37:02.159 --> 01:37:07.760
<v Speaker 2>the first one sent against UH UH you know AH

1141
01:37:08.520 --> 01:37:14.199
<v Speaker 2>and the the Allied units, and they got slaughtered. And

1142
01:37:15.119 --> 01:37:21.000
<v Speaker 2>when they were encamped, they were encamped basically in a

1143
01:37:21.079 --> 01:37:29.920
<v Speaker 2>an enclosure UH logs like a fort, a fort, barbed

1144
01:37:29.960 --> 01:37:35.600
<v Speaker 2>wire on top of the you know, the logs, but

1145
01:37:35.640 --> 01:37:40.720
<v Speaker 2>the guards were on the outside looking in. So if

1146
01:37:40.760 --> 01:37:43.479
<v Speaker 2>you saw that, you might think, oh, the guards are

1147
01:37:43.479 --> 01:37:47.399
<v Speaker 2>looking out, but no, the guards the good. If the

1148
01:37:47.520 --> 01:37:52.279
<v Speaker 2>towers were on the outside, they were protected by the

1149
01:37:52.479 --> 01:37:56.319
<v Speaker 2>by the wall, they were looking inward, and then you

1150
01:37:56.319 --> 01:37:59.560
<v Speaker 2>would say, oh, all these soldiers that are inside this

1151
01:37:59.640 --> 01:38:04.439
<v Speaker 2>enclosure or none of them are carrying weapons. Okay. So

1152
01:38:04.680 --> 01:38:09.920
<v Speaker 2>unless you told an analyst what to look for not

1153
01:38:10.079 --> 01:38:15.800
<v Speaker 2>carrying weapons, morale looks low. Their their comportment is bad,

1154
01:38:16.760 --> 01:38:19.119
<v Speaker 2>and they're being guarded from the outside. You wouldn't know

1155
01:38:19.159 --> 01:38:21.960
<v Speaker 2>that they're a penal battalion. So that's the same kind

1156
01:38:21.960 --> 01:38:25.520
<v Speaker 2>of thing that I think is a problem with all

1157
01:38:25.560 --> 01:38:29.680
<v Speaker 2>intelligence analysts unless they are informed by somebody who has

1158
01:38:29.720 --> 01:38:38.600
<v Speaker 2>the tactical wisdom. Wisdom is training plus experience, Okay, and

1159
01:38:38.680 --> 01:38:43.600
<v Speaker 2>so uh that's I chalk that up to them. And

1160
01:38:45.840 --> 01:38:54.199
<v Speaker 2>what do you call it? Intellectual incuriosity, failure of the imagination? Yeah,

1161
01:38:54.359 --> 01:39:02.079
<v Speaker 2>just just staring at photos all day, staring at all day. Uh,

1162
01:39:02.680 --> 01:39:07.600
<v Speaker 2>you probably don't get it, so uh, but anyway, that's

1163
01:39:07.640 --> 01:39:12.560
<v Speaker 2>what I chalked it up to to be. Uh. And

1164
01:39:12.600 --> 01:39:18.199
<v Speaker 2>I found out other things in my experience. Uh. So

1165
01:39:18.319 --> 01:39:22.279
<v Speaker 2>this disease went all the way up to J two

1166
01:39:22.359 --> 01:39:29.920
<v Speaker 2>at MCVEE. Yeah. Yeah, And example was a sod team

1167
01:39:30.039 --> 01:39:36.159
<v Speaker 2>discovered tank track tracks near the across the border from

1168
01:39:36.800 --> 01:39:43.920
<v Speaker 2>the Long Long Vey a camp in I Corps reported

1169
01:39:44.000 --> 01:39:50.000
<v Speaker 2>it back. They bring the team leader down to mcviee

1170
01:39:50.000 --> 01:39:54.680
<v Speaker 2>headquarters and he explains what he's seeing and he's got

1171
01:39:54.680 --> 01:40:01.119
<v Speaker 2>photographs of the tracks and the U The staff officer

1172
01:40:01.279 --> 01:40:06.000
<v Speaker 2>in charge of J two was a major general and

1173
01:40:06.039 --> 01:40:11.399
<v Speaker 2>he says, not possible. There are no tanks. The norfield

1174
01:40:11.439 --> 01:40:13.880
<v Speaker 2>means don't have any tanks, and the north of me

1175
01:40:14.039 --> 01:40:18.479
<v Speaker 2>could never get tanks down into through these mountains. That's

1176
01:40:18.520 --> 01:40:24.000
<v Speaker 2>what that was his opinion. And the I guess then

1177
01:40:24.039 --> 01:40:27.680
<v Speaker 2>it was Westmoreland, and Westmoreland listened to him and then

1178
01:40:27.720 --> 01:40:34.319
<v Speaker 2>they attacked Longvai. The funny part about this story was

1179
01:40:35.359 --> 01:40:41.720
<v Speaker 2>he did it again. Ben Heat, down the Triborder area

1180
01:40:42.479 --> 01:40:46.920
<v Speaker 2>got attacked by tanks again special Forces and SOG teams

1181
01:40:46.960 --> 01:40:52.039
<v Speaker 2>that had discovered tracks on both occasions. This major general says,

1182
01:40:52.079 --> 01:40:57.359
<v Speaker 2>those are caterpillar tracks from earth moving equipment, and they

1183
01:40:57.399 --> 01:41:02.920
<v Speaker 2>attacked ben Hett. Of course they got wiped out, but

1184
01:41:05.319 --> 01:41:07.319
<v Speaker 2>it was a surprise to ben Heat that they were

1185
01:41:07.359 --> 01:41:11.319
<v Speaker 2>being attacked by tanks and they they actually fired. They

1186
01:41:11.439 --> 01:41:14.520
<v Speaker 2>had knocked out one of our forty seven, so m

1187
01:41:14.600 --> 01:41:21.159
<v Speaker 2>forty eight tanks and killed. They voted. But so it's

1188
01:41:21.159 --> 01:41:25.159
<v Speaker 2>the same major General says, not possible, and this time

1189
01:41:25.399 --> 01:41:28.840
<v Speaker 2>it's I don't know if it's still Westmoreland or if

1190
01:41:28.880 --> 01:41:32.199
<v Speaker 2>Abrams had taken charge at that point, but.

1191
01:41:33.800 --> 01:41:36.960
<v Speaker 1>So take us through. I mean the kind of the

1192
01:41:37.479 --> 01:41:40.600
<v Speaker 1>tail end of Vietnam for you, Did you have a

1193
01:41:40.640 --> 01:41:44.359
<v Speaker 1>break in service or did you re enlist? What was

1194
01:41:44.399 --> 01:41:46.159
<v Speaker 1>sort of the next step in your army career.

1195
01:41:47.520 --> 01:41:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, I had originally thought that I that I might

1196
01:41:52.800 --> 01:41:54.920
<v Speaker 2>get out of the army and go back to college.

1197
01:41:55.880 --> 01:42:03.399
<v Speaker 2>That was my initial intent, but I changed my mind.

1198
01:42:03.960 --> 01:42:09.239
<v Speaker 2>I really enjoyed the military. Uh, and my experience with

1199
01:42:09.439 --> 01:42:16.479
<v Speaker 2>SOG was all positive. I never got wounded. Only two

1200
01:42:16.600 --> 01:42:20.880
<v Speaker 2>guys on my team got wounded other than Saint Martin,

1201
01:42:22.680 --> 01:42:27.920
<v Speaker 2>And that was a remarkable This is a by the

1202
01:42:27.920 --> 01:42:32.560
<v Speaker 2>way comment. It was that was a remarkable feat because

1203
01:42:33.199 --> 01:42:37.760
<v Speaker 2>for two years SOG had it our ccc FB two

1204
01:42:37.840 --> 01:42:47.520
<v Speaker 2>had in access of casualties and not me and one

1205
01:42:47.560 --> 01:42:56.800
<v Speaker 2>American and one Yard got wounded for the entire eighteen

1206
01:42:56.800 --> 01:43:02.640
<v Speaker 2>months plus that I was a team leader. It's not

1207
01:43:03.319 --> 01:43:06.159
<v Speaker 2>all positive. And I really enjoyed my Special Forces experience

1208
01:43:06.479 --> 01:43:12.279
<v Speaker 2>to that point, and then wound up, you know, re enlisting,

1209
01:43:13.439 --> 01:43:17.319
<v Speaker 2>and I became an instructor at the Special at the

1210
01:43:20.159 --> 01:43:26.520
<v Speaker 2>h Special Forces Reconnaissance Course at Camp McCall. Now, as

1211
01:43:26.520 --> 01:43:35.680
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned in the book, UH, at long time, all

1212
01:43:35.800 --> 01:43:40.720
<v Speaker 2>the POI primary instruction and lesson LANs were all destroyed,

1213
01:43:42.039 --> 01:43:47.960
<v Speaker 2>gone forever. As the United States started as drawed down,

1214
01:43:48.000 --> 01:43:51.119
<v Speaker 2>they still had the necessity SAD was still going on

1215
01:43:52.560 --> 01:43:59.680
<v Speaker 2>for several months, and they still needed uh the new

1216
01:43:59.720 --> 01:44:05.520
<v Speaker 2>folks who were due to to come to the fobs. Now,

1217
01:44:05.600 --> 01:44:09.000
<v Speaker 2>at that point there was two fobs I guess to

1218
01:44:09.039 --> 01:44:12.800
<v Speaker 2>go through that training. So they had begun at this

1219
01:44:13.000 --> 01:44:20.880
<v Speaker 2>course at Camp McCall. So I was there briefly, but

1220
01:44:22.159 --> 01:44:24.920
<v Speaker 2>the position actually called for an eleven foxtrot and I

1221
01:44:25.079 --> 01:44:27.920
<v Speaker 2>was not eleven foxtrot yet, So they sent me off

1222
01:44:27.920 --> 01:44:34.479
<v Speaker 2>to to own high school and by the time I

1223
01:44:34.520 --> 01:44:42.000
<v Speaker 2>got back, they had discontinued the course and again they

1224
01:44:42.039 --> 01:44:47.720
<v Speaker 2>destroyed all the lesson plans of POI. So one of

1225
01:44:47.760 --> 01:44:56.560
<v Speaker 2>my challenges then was to kind of not only come

1226
01:44:56.640 --> 01:45:02.680
<v Speaker 2>up with the the old you know, the tactics, techniques,

1227
01:45:02.720 --> 01:45:06.600
<v Speaker 2>and procedures, but also make them relevant to today, right,

1228
01:45:07.880 --> 01:45:09.600
<v Speaker 2>And that was why I wrote the first.

1229
01:45:09.399 --> 01:45:14.399
<v Speaker 1>Book and what job did they give you? Since the

1230
01:45:14.479 --> 01:45:16.119
<v Speaker 1>Reconnaissance School was shut down.

1231
01:45:17.159 --> 01:45:19.720
<v Speaker 2>I went to the seventh Special Forces Group and I

1232
01:45:19.760 --> 01:45:23.760
<v Speaker 2>was just you know, a team member. UH. And at

1233
01:45:23.800 --> 01:45:27.800
<v Speaker 2>that point, UH Special Forces was under a lot of pressure.

1234
01:45:29.880 --> 01:45:33.920
<v Speaker 2>They had already deactivated the sixth Special Forces Group. They

1235
01:45:33.960 --> 01:45:36.439
<v Speaker 2>were working on the third and the and the seventh

1236
01:45:36.479 --> 01:45:43.279
<v Speaker 2>Special Forces Groups to deactivate them. Fortunately that didn't happen.

1237
01:45:45.720 --> 01:45:48.319
<v Speaker 2>But I saw the handwrite into the wall. I decided, well,

1238
01:45:48.359 --> 01:45:51.800
<v Speaker 2>I might as well go to o c S going off,

1239
01:45:53.279 --> 01:45:55.000
<v Speaker 2>which is what I did. And when I got into

1240
01:45:55.039 --> 01:46:01.119
<v Speaker 2>o CS, uh, I mean. My experience in the seventh

1241
01:46:01.159 --> 01:46:04.920
<v Speaker 2>Special Force Group was my sergeant major loved me and

1242
01:46:04.960 --> 01:46:08.399
<v Speaker 2>he sent me to you know, courses. I was number

1243
01:46:08.399 --> 01:46:14.279
<v Speaker 2>one in the NCAO Academy Distinguished undergrad that kind of stuff.

1244
01:46:15.439 --> 01:46:18.039
<v Speaker 2>He thought I was. I walked on water. He sent

1245
01:46:18.079 --> 01:46:23.720
<v Speaker 2>me to Halo School, which at that point was going

1246
01:46:23.760 --> 01:46:26.600
<v Speaker 2>to that was an exception rather than the routine as

1247
01:46:26.600 --> 01:46:33.399
<v Speaker 2>it is now, as a reward for my performance. And

1248
01:46:36.319 --> 01:46:40.000
<v Speaker 2>so I went to OCS and in my platoon there

1249
01:46:40.079 --> 01:46:43.600
<v Speaker 2>was a one of my fellow candidates was an EOD guy,

1250
01:46:45.600 --> 01:46:48.359
<v Speaker 2>and he said, you know, you ought to consider going

1251
01:46:48.399 --> 01:46:52.000
<v Speaker 2>into EOD because as a second lieutenant you get to command,

1252
01:46:55.079 --> 01:47:01.399
<v Speaker 2>which is probably the only occasion where uh, a second

1253
01:47:01.439 --> 01:47:05.119
<v Speaker 2>lieutenant would command a unit, actually lead a unit, yes,

1254
01:47:05.640 --> 01:47:11.239
<v Speaker 2>but command no. So the uh so that and he said,

1255
01:47:11.359 --> 01:47:14.079
<v Speaker 2>and all you know, you learned some new stuff and

1256
01:47:14.399 --> 01:47:19.680
<v Speaker 2>uh uh and it's an actual mission and all that

1257
01:47:19.680 --> 01:47:22.039
<v Speaker 2>good stuff. And that appealed to me. And I reasoned

1258
01:47:22.800 --> 01:47:29.159
<v Speaker 2>that if I, h if another war came along, I

1259
01:47:29.159 --> 01:47:33.880
<v Speaker 2>could do a branch transfer and go back to special Forces. Yeah.

1260
01:47:35.840 --> 01:47:39.960
<v Speaker 2>Uh and uh so that was my decision. I went

1261
01:47:40.239 --> 01:47:44.159
<v Speaker 2>into ordinance and I commanded a UN detachment and then

1262
01:47:44.159 --> 01:47:48.119
<v Speaker 2>I had subsequent Uh. I was in Berlin Brigade as

1263
01:47:48.119 --> 01:47:51.239
<v Speaker 2>the EO D Officer for the American sector and had

1264
01:47:51.239 --> 01:47:55.199
<v Speaker 2>a couple of other hats I were as well. Great assignment,

1265
01:47:55.840 --> 01:48:00.960
<v Speaker 2>accomplished a great deal uh and then commanded a company

1266
01:48:01.079 --> 01:48:05.359
<v Speaker 2>back in uh in West Germany, which is a very

1267
01:48:05.760 --> 01:48:11.359
<v Speaker 2>challenging assignment. Uh And I did very well there. So

1268
01:48:11.720 --> 01:48:17.199
<v Speaker 2>my experience to that point was that I I really

1269
01:48:17.279 --> 01:48:25.800
<v Speaker 2>enjoyed my military experience. Uh And uh So that answers

1270
01:48:25.800 --> 01:48:26.239
<v Speaker 2>your question.

1271
01:48:26.279 --> 01:48:30.159
<v Speaker 1>I guess, did you ever work with the green Light program?

1272
01:48:32.920 --> 01:48:45.760
<v Speaker 2>No? Interestingly, when uh, the the not the green Light,

1273
01:48:45.840 --> 01:48:52.920
<v Speaker 2>but Delta I tried to rescue UH the embassy employees

1274
01:48:53.199 --> 01:49:02.479
<v Speaker 2>from irant uh the UH I was still in at SOG,

1275
01:49:03.880 --> 01:49:10.119
<v Speaker 2>and I knew a number of these So they decided

1276
01:49:10.520 --> 01:49:12.960
<v Speaker 2>that they weren't going to use SOG for that raid

1277
01:49:13.199 --> 01:49:16.439
<v Speaker 2>because they were convinced that SOOG had been penetrated.

1278
01:49:17.000 --> 01:49:19.560
<v Speaker 1>What wait, are you talking about the sun type raid?

1279
01:49:20.760 --> 01:49:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes?

1280
01:49:21.199 --> 01:49:24.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, I'm tracking okay.

1281
01:49:25.279 --> 01:49:29.199
<v Speaker 2>Uh So, by then I knew that we were we

1282
01:49:29.239 --> 01:49:34.640
<v Speaker 2>had been penetrated uh and uh So I didn't hold

1283
01:49:34.640 --> 01:49:37.000
<v Speaker 2>a grudge, but I knew a number of those guys

1284
01:49:37.880 --> 01:49:40.640
<v Speaker 2>who went in on that operation who were former SOG.

1285
01:49:41.239 --> 01:49:44.600
<v Speaker 2>And I also knew that others who were in Blue

1286
01:49:44.680 --> 01:49:56.640
<v Speaker 2>Light were former SOG. Yeah. And so when I was

1287
01:49:57.319 --> 01:50:04.000
<v Speaker 2>still in UH the EOD detachment, I got a call

1288
01:50:04.039 --> 01:50:07.800
<v Speaker 2>from my boss and he said that Delta was looking

1289
01:50:07.840 --> 01:50:18.079
<v Speaker 2>for Special Forces qualified EOD officer. And the commander of

1290
01:50:18.279 --> 01:50:28.600
<v Speaker 2>Delta at that point was Charlie Beckwith, And I knew

1291
01:50:28.680 --> 01:50:32.119
<v Speaker 2>something about Charlie Beckwith. There was a number of guys

1292
01:50:32.119 --> 01:50:36.279
<v Speaker 2>who were in SAG who left Delta because of Charlie Beckworth.

1293
01:50:36.720 --> 01:50:41.119
<v Speaker 2>They could tolerate him. Yeah, And there were other things

1294
01:50:41.119 --> 01:50:48.359
<v Speaker 2>about Charlie beckwith that I had learned as well, and

1295
01:50:49.479 --> 01:50:54.479
<v Speaker 2>among them was he didn't take advice. He thought he

1296
01:50:54.560 --> 01:50:59.439
<v Speaker 2>knew everything. And I knew that that was a prescription

1297
01:50:59.600 --> 01:51:05.880
<v Speaker 2>for or that was not. Yeah, that was not a

1298
01:51:05.920 --> 01:51:08.359
<v Speaker 2>guy that you wanted as your commander, and did I

1299
01:51:08.479 --> 01:51:12.600
<v Speaker 2>declined that position and it was And that was a

1300
01:51:12.600 --> 01:51:15.119
<v Speaker 2>good thing because then I went onto the advance course

1301
01:51:15.199 --> 01:51:19.720
<v Speaker 2>and my subsequent subsequently went to Berlin, which was a

1302
01:51:19.720 --> 01:51:22.359
<v Speaker 2>great assignment. Great assignment.

1303
01:51:23.720 --> 01:51:26.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all the Cloak and Dagg are going on there

1304
01:51:26.119 --> 01:51:26.600
<v Speaker 1>at the time.

1305
01:51:28.359 --> 01:51:34.159
<v Speaker 2>What in Berlin? Yeah, yeah, Well I worked with with

1306
01:51:35.920 --> 01:51:41.720
<v Speaker 2>uh dead a. Uh. They stored their ammunition with us,

1307
01:51:42.199 --> 01:51:47.479
<v Speaker 2>with me, uh and I had ammunition depots within the city.

1308
01:51:49.159 --> 01:51:54.560
<v Speaker 2>Uh and uh they had some special ammunition as you

1309
01:51:54.600 --> 01:51:58.000
<v Speaker 2>can imagine, that had been given to them by the agency. Uh.

1310
01:51:58.680 --> 01:52:02.439
<v Speaker 2>And so it went or shelf life and they come

1311
01:52:02.479 --> 01:52:05.119
<v Speaker 2>to me for disposal of it, stuff like that. I

1312
01:52:05.199 --> 01:52:07.079
<v Speaker 2>visited them on a couple of occasions.

1313
01:52:08.399 --> 01:52:11.640
<v Speaker 1>Uh, they're like sub sonic ammo with stuff like that.

1314
01:52:13.079 --> 01:52:17.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, here's this is kind of interesting. So one uh

1315
01:52:17.600 --> 01:52:23.039
<v Speaker 2>not sub sonic. I didn't see any subsnic. Uh they

1316
01:52:23.079 --> 01:52:31.760
<v Speaker 2>had and send your delay and sendiary devices interesting, But

1317
01:52:32.079 --> 01:52:37.399
<v Speaker 2>the most interesting thing was it came to me with

1318
01:52:37.800 --> 01:52:48.399
<v Speaker 2>a can of forty five ammo, ah special AMMO with

1319
01:52:48.520 --> 01:52:59.920
<v Speaker 2>explosive warheads ah and uh so there was fulminated mercury

1320
01:53:00.840 --> 01:53:05.199
<v Speaker 2>inside inside the head of the forty five caliber pistol round.

1321
01:53:07.199 --> 01:53:12.159
<v Speaker 2>Uh So that was that was kind of interesting.

1322
01:53:12.319 --> 01:53:13.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's why.

1323
01:53:14.439 --> 01:53:17.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1324
01:53:18.039 --> 01:53:20.600
<v Speaker 1>Uh and tell us about, you know, kind of retirement,

1325
01:53:20.640 --> 01:53:22.560
<v Speaker 1>how you retired from the military and what you did

1326
01:53:22.560 --> 01:53:25.439
<v Speaker 1>in civilian life.

1327
01:53:26.840 --> 01:53:34.119
<v Speaker 2>Well, uh. On the to kind of finish off on

1328
01:53:34.479 --> 01:53:39.239
<v Speaker 2>my my career story, I worked with Special Forces again

1329
01:53:40.199 --> 01:53:43.640
<v Speaker 2>when I was at UM Approving Ground where I was

1330
01:53:43.680 --> 01:53:47.720
<v Speaker 2>a test manager and because of my clearance of my background,

1331
01:53:47.760 --> 01:53:51.720
<v Speaker 2>I was given any of the projects associated with with

1332
01:53:51.800 --> 01:53:56.920
<v Speaker 2>Special Forces, so they had special munitions requirements and I

1333
01:53:57.079 --> 01:54:00.319
<v Speaker 2>was the project engineer on those kinds of things. H.

1334
01:54:01.079 --> 01:54:06.800
<v Speaker 2>I was also given uh some really high tech uh

1335
01:54:08.079 --> 01:54:15.479
<v Speaker 2>projects to handle smart, intelligent, brilliant minitions, UH, semi autonomous

1336
01:54:15.600 --> 01:54:23.760
<v Speaker 2>munitions UH and directed energy weapons. And I thought, you

1337
01:54:23.760 --> 01:54:25.800
<v Speaker 2>know this is you know, this is really great. It's

1338
01:54:25.840 --> 01:54:28.560
<v Speaker 2>another great assignment for me. I didn't expect it to

1339
01:54:28.600 --> 01:54:31.920
<v Speaker 2>be because frankly, Human proven Ground is the asshole of

1340
01:54:31.960 --> 01:54:35.800
<v Speaker 2>the world. But it was. It was a good, really

1341
01:54:35.840 --> 01:54:38.159
<v Speaker 2>good experience. I got to do some interesting, really stuff

1342
01:54:38.720 --> 01:54:42.399
<v Speaker 2>and I work with Special Forces in developing uh some

1343
01:54:42.479 --> 01:54:45.960
<v Speaker 2>of the smart, intelligent, brilliant minitions and and some of

1344
01:54:46.000 --> 01:54:51.039
<v Speaker 2>the booby trap devices that are still in their inventory.

1345
01:54:51.199 --> 01:54:55.359
<v Speaker 2>They also had a munition developed specifically for them. Uh.

1346
01:54:58.800 --> 01:55:01.960
<v Speaker 2>Uh what was the name of it.

1347
01:55:02.239 --> 01:55:08.239
<v Speaker 1>Uh, there's a pursuit deterrent mind pursuit the pursuit deterrent munition.

1348
01:55:08.520 --> 01:55:10.560
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I was the project engineer for that.

1349
01:55:10.680 --> 01:55:12.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh no kidding, Yeah those are still around.

1350
01:55:14.399 --> 01:55:20.119
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, so uh yeah, yes, I was the project

1351
01:55:20.159 --> 01:55:27.039
<v Speaker 2>engineer for for that munition. Uh and uh I could

1352
01:55:27.199 --> 01:55:29.279
<v Speaker 2>wish that I could have had one of those, you know,

1353
01:55:29.319 --> 01:55:31.439
<v Speaker 2>some of those when I was in Saga.

1354
01:55:31.439 --> 01:55:37.479
<v Speaker 1>Hell yeah yeah uh so uh.

1355
01:55:37.560 --> 01:55:41.760
<v Speaker 2>I and also did some some work for the agency

1356
01:55:42.359 --> 01:55:49.319
<v Speaker 2>uh where and it was kind of a curious event. Uh.

1357
01:55:50.239 --> 01:55:55.439
<v Speaker 2>At this point, I was a major uh And my

1358
01:55:55.520 --> 01:56:00.479
<v Speaker 2>boss came in to my office and said he was

1359
01:56:00.560 --> 01:56:07.840
<v Speaker 2>really flustered, and he said, we've got a problem. We

1360
01:56:07.920 --> 01:56:12.800
<v Speaker 2>need you in the conference room. We have some folks

1361
01:56:12.800 --> 01:56:16.279
<v Speaker 2>from the agency here who think they're supposed to be

1362
01:56:16.319 --> 01:56:19.560
<v Speaker 2>here to run a test, and no one knows about it,

1363
01:56:21.039 --> 01:56:26.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, So I go into the conference room. I

1364
01:56:26.079 --> 01:56:34.560
<v Speaker 2>sit down, and there's five guys from the agency and

1365
01:56:34.680 --> 01:56:39.439
<v Speaker 2>my boss and my boss's boss, and they describe the

1366
01:56:39.439 --> 01:56:48.680
<v Speaker 2>problem and and they asked me if I could, if

1367
01:56:48.720 --> 01:56:51.880
<v Speaker 2>I could handle this, because it had been a cock

1368
01:56:51.960 --> 01:56:56.760
<v Speaker 2>up they had they had come to the months prior

1369
01:56:58.920 --> 01:57:04.880
<v Speaker 2>and went to the wrong off us to coordinate the test,

1370
01:57:05.119 --> 01:57:10.000
<v Speaker 2>and and so then they show up with the with

1371
01:57:10.079 --> 01:57:13.359
<v Speaker 2>the expectation that it was the test would be he

1372
01:57:13.439 --> 01:57:16.000
<v Speaker 2>kicked off on time, and no one knew in the

1373
01:57:16.039 --> 01:57:22.279
<v Speaker 2>test director at all at any rate. So I said, yeah,

1374
01:57:22.279 --> 01:57:25.439
<v Speaker 2>I can do this, And I looked across the table.

1375
01:57:25.760 --> 01:57:27.880
<v Speaker 2>I looked around the table, and then across the table

1376
01:57:27.920 --> 01:57:33.560
<v Speaker 2>from me was the guy from CCC by the name

1377
01:57:33.600 --> 01:57:38.279
<v Speaker 2>of Joe Walker. Oh yeah, Joe Walker was probably the

1378
01:57:38.319 --> 01:57:43.439
<v Speaker 2>best team leader I'd ever encountered, UH and very well respected,

1379
01:57:44.359 --> 01:57:47.840
<v Speaker 2>formerly with Delta before he came to CCC. And then

1380
01:57:48.680 --> 01:57:57.000
<v Speaker 2>he had and the ammunition that they were testing was

1381
01:57:57.079 --> 01:58:01.359
<v Speaker 2>foreign ammunition and it was the one twenty two millimeter rocket.

1382
01:58:03.520 --> 01:58:08.800
<v Speaker 2>And when Joe Walker was at SOG he had gone

1383
01:58:09.359 --> 01:58:13.880
<v Speaker 2>to some of these ammunition holding areas for farm munitions

1384
01:58:15.359 --> 01:58:18.279
<v Speaker 2>to police up stuff that he might be able to use,

1385
01:58:19.159 --> 01:58:22.279
<v Speaker 2>and he saw all these stacks of one twenty two

1386
01:58:22.319 --> 01:58:26.319
<v Speaker 2>millimeters rockets and he started thinking about how he might

1387
01:58:26.359 --> 01:58:31.039
<v Speaker 2>be able to use those time passes. He's in the agency,

1388
01:58:31.960 --> 01:58:35.920
<v Speaker 2>he has an opportunity to use them. But he had

1389
01:58:36.399 --> 01:58:39.079
<v Speaker 2>They don't have launchers. They have to figure out how

1390
01:58:39.159 --> 01:58:39.880
<v Speaker 2>to how to.

1391
01:58:39.920 --> 01:58:51.079
<v Speaker 4>Use them in a innovative way.

1392
01:58:51.199 --> 01:59:01.760
<v Speaker 2>So they had to create lunchers out of PBC pipe

1393
01:59:03.960 --> 01:59:07.399
<v Speaker 2>and then they had UH. Then the those were propped

1394
01:59:07.479 --> 01:59:13.119
<v Speaker 2>up by angle iron well tied together or welded together

1395
01:59:14.279 --> 01:59:19.800
<v Speaker 2>uh in across crucifix, you know that like that? Uh

1396
01:59:19.840 --> 01:59:25.359
<v Speaker 2>And then UH their handler there uh their liaison was

1397
01:59:25.399 --> 01:59:35.439
<v Speaker 2>a guy who had developed a uh a potted uh

1398
01:59:35.920 --> 01:59:44.159
<v Speaker 2>a timing device. So they wanted to test these and

1399
01:59:45.159 --> 01:59:53.359
<v Speaker 2>get figure out elevation, deflection, and range characteristics firing from

1400
01:59:53.399 --> 01:59:57.279
<v Speaker 2>this this jury rigged system. And they also wanted to

1401
01:59:57.319 --> 02:00:03.720
<v Speaker 2>test a fuse that was used that they thought might work.

1402
02:00:03.960 --> 02:00:07.279
<v Speaker 2>They didn't have enough uses for all the the one

1403
02:00:07.319 --> 02:00:10.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty twos that they had, and they wanted to test

1404
02:00:10.960 --> 02:00:12.760
<v Speaker 2>the different fuse to see if that would work. And

1405
02:00:12.800 --> 02:00:19.119
<v Speaker 2>it didn't. And so they had a fairly significant inventory

1406
02:00:19.159 --> 02:00:21.960
<v Speaker 2>of one twenty two's that were restored here in the

1407
02:00:22.039 --> 02:00:39.880
<v Speaker 2>United States in bunkers on installation storage ammunition storage areas.

1408
02:00:39.520 --> 02:00:45.119
<v Speaker 2>So that was my purpose is to try and Joe

1409
02:00:45.199 --> 02:00:50.439
<v Speaker 2>tried to recruit me into the agency, but I said,

1410
02:00:51.079 --> 02:00:54.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't have my twenty years in yet, so I

1411
02:00:54.840 --> 02:01:05.119
<v Speaker 2>don't want to forego by military retirement. And then so

1412
02:01:05.159 --> 02:01:09.479
<v Speaker 2>I declined the opportunity, but said check with me later.

1413
02:01:10.119 --> 02:01:12.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, after I hit my twenty I didn't know

1414
02:01:12.920 --> 02:01:23.560
<v Speaker 2>how to get in contact with him. Actually, but years

1415
02:01:23.640 --> 02:01:27.479
<v Speaker 2>later I discovered that he's working out at Harvey Point.

1416
02:01:28.479 --> 02:01:31.800
<v Speaker 2>Now he had been operational. So this thing with the

1417
02:01:31.840 --> 02:01:36.680
<v Speaker 2>one twenty two's that is a legendary op that has

1418
02:01:36.800 --> 02:01:41.239
<v Speaker 2>never spoken about, I guess among But Joe Walker became

1419
02:01:41.239 --> 02:01:44.800
<v Speaker 2>a legend and at Harvey Point, his picture is all

1420
02:01:44.880 --> 02:01:50.279
<v Speaker 2>along the hallways in the in the main building at

1421
02:01:50.319 --> 02:01:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Harvey Point.

1422
02:01:51.199 --> 02:01:54.439
<v Speaker 1>So they used those for some deniable operations somewhere in

1423
02:01:54.479 --> 02:01:54.840
<v Speaker 1>the world.

1424
02:01:57.199 --> 02:02:04.840
<v Speaker 2>Yes, And it was astounding what it did. About one

1425
02:02:04.920 --> 02:02:18.119
<v Speaker 2>hundred wow rockets fired uh in UH on timers and

1426
02:02:19.760 --> 02:02:24.600
<v Speaker 2>basically wiped out an enemy installation with them. So you

1427
02:02:24.680 --> 02:02:26.920
<v Speaker 2>got a lot of creds for that. I ran into

1428
02:02:27.000 --> 02:02:33.359
<v Speaker 2>him later UH and paid a number of visits as

1429
02:02:33.399 --> 02:02:37.199
<v Speaker 2>a as a contractor because I had some things that

1430
02:02:37.239 --> 02:02:40.960
<v Speaker 2>I thought the agency might use, and I had I

1431
02:02:41.039 --> 02:02:46.800
<v Speaker 2>basically had a contract working with them, a classified contract.

1432
02:02:49.520 --> 02:02:57.640
<v Speaker 2>You know what masn't is signals and measuring intelligence, correct, So, uh,

1433
02:02:58.000 --> 02:03:02.520
<v Speaker 2>we had a program doing that for them. So like

1434
02:03:03.239 --> 02:03:06.479
<v Speaker 2>the people who work for me in my division, my

1435
02:03:06.600 --> 02:03:11.880
<v Speaker 2>corporate division, we're doing that kind of stuff out in Nevada.

1436
02:03:12.000 --> 02:03:16.119
<v Speaker 2>And then uh, you know, so it was at the

1437
02:03:16.159 --> 02:03:21.920
<v Speaker 2>Harvey Point again, and so I met up with him

1438
02:03:21.920 --> 02:03:27.880
<v Speaker 2>a couple of times, and he was running, he had

1439
02:03:27.880 --> 02:03:31.479
<v Speaker 2>had a well, he was still operationally. He had this

1440
02:03:31.600 --> 02:03:38.000
<v Speaker 2>really serious accident. He was on a railroad platform, fell

1441
02:03:38.039 --> 02:03:42.319
<v Speaker 2>off backwards and broke his back, and uh, and that

1442
02:03:42.439 --> 02:03:45.439
<v Speaker 2>was it. So they hired him at Harvey Point to

1443
02:03:45.520 --> 02:03:52.039
<v Speaker 2>be an instructor, and then when he reached retirement there

1444
02:03:54.960 --> 02:03:57.199
<v Speaker 2>at the agency, they hired him back as a contractor

1445
02:03:57.239 --> 02:03:58.920
<v Speaker 2>to do the same thing he had been doing as

1446
02:03:58.920 --> 02:04:03.800
<v Speaker 2>a as a an agency employee. And he passed away

1447
02:04:06.119 --> 02:04:20.039
<v Speaker 2>from Parkinson's a couple of years ago, and I I

1448
02:04:20.119 --> 02:04:26.920
<v Speaker 2>helped get him recognized as a distinguished member of the

1449
02:04:27.000 --> 02:04:30.239
<v Speaker 2>Special Forces Regiment before he passed.

1450
02:04:30.560 --> 02:04:36.159
<v Speaker 1>Oh that's great, and do you want to talk a

1451
02:04:36.199 --> 02:04:38.840
<v Speaker 1>little bit about your book.

1452
02:04:38.880 --> 02:04:41.399
<v Speaker 2>Oh you asked me about my my corporate career. I'm

1453
02:04:41.399 --> 02:04:45.800
<v Speaker 2>sorry I failed to tell you so. Out of the Pentagon,

1454
02:04:45.840 --> 02:04:49.520
<v Speaker 2>which is my worst my worst assignment in my my career.

1455
02:04:51.239 --> 02:04:55.319
<v Speaker 2>I absolutely hated it. Uh. And then I the day

1456
02:04:55.359 --> 02:04:58.000
<v Speaker 2>after I retired, I went to work for a contractor

1457
02:04:59.039 --> 02:05:03.840
<v Speaker 2>and I was working in the a Joint Program Office

1458
02:05:03.840 --> 02:05:12.960
<v Speaker 2>for Biological Defense. And President Clinton had read a book

1459
02:05:14.359 --> 02:05:20.479
<v Speaker 2>about Ebola and started asking questions about it from the

1460
02:05:20.560 --> 02:05:26.199
<v Speaker 2>science Advisor and was convinced that we needed to up

1461
02:05:26.199 --> 02:05:30.960
<v Speaker 2>our game in biological defense, and so they started up

1462
02:05:31.000 --> 02:05:35.479
<v Speaker 2>this office and I was like, very very early into

1463
02:05:35.520 --> 02:05:39.359
<v Speaker 2>that program and was there for four or five years

1464
02:05:39.479 --> 02:05:44.399
<v Speaker 2>or so. And during that timeframe, I went from you know,

1465
02:05:44.399 --> 02:05:47.079
<v Speaker 2>a research analyst all the way up to a senior

1466
02:05:47.119 --> 02:05:52.479
<v Speaker 2>vice president within my firm and had the biggest division

1467
02:05:52.560 --> 02:05:57.199
<v Speaker 2>within the firm. Because I'm naturally aggressive, and I went

1468
02:05:57.239 --> 02:06:01.840
<v Speaker 2>after business. Any business that I thought I could win,

1469
02:06:01.920 --> 02:06:08.239
<v Speaker 2>I went after it. And I left that corporation because

1470
02:06:08.880 --> 02:06:12.520
<v Speaker 2>they had someone savory business practices that I couldn't tolerate,

1471
02:06:15.159 --> 02:06:18.840
<v Speaker 2>and the president of the corporation and I didn't like

1472
02:06:18.920 --> 02:06:22.920
<v Speaker 2>each other. So I left and became a consultant and

1473
02:06:23.000 --> 02:06:30.239
<v Speaker 2>kept working on classified programs here and there, and worked

1474
02:06:30.239 --> 02:06:38.560
<v Speaker 2>in business development for to do proposals to win contracts,

1475
02:06:39.720 --> 02:06:48.640
<v Speaker 2>mostly defense contracts, and then retired, but have been keeping

1476
02:06:48.680 --> 02:06:52.159
<v Speaker 2>my hand in and like writing all these issues and

1477
02:06:52.199 --> 02:06:56.399
<v Speaker 2>giving presentations to people who really care about these things.

1478
02:06:56.600 --> 02:07:02.399
<v Speaker 2>I hope, and I'm kind of like wedded to these

1479
02:07:02.439 --> 02:07:05.439
<v Speaker 2>campaigns about getting prepared for the next war.

1480
02:07:06.039 --> 02:07:08.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's what I wanted to get into with you.

1481
02:07:08.920 --> 02:07:12.359
<v Speaker 1>Next was, you know, you're very passionate about jungle warfare

1482
02:07:12.680 --> 02:07:15.319
<v Speaker 1>and the training and doctrine that we give our soldiers

1483
02:07:15.720 --> 02:07:19.079
<v Speaker 1>around that. Could you kind of lay out from your

1484
02:07:19.119 --> 02:07:23.079
<v Speaker 1>point of view what the current deficiencies are, what lessons

1485
02:07:23.119 --> 02:07:25.399
<v Speaker 1>maybe need to be relearned in the forest today.

1486
02:07:27.680 --> 02:07:38.399
<v Speaker 2>Well, Americans are particularly bad at forgetting past practices that

1487
02:07:38.479 --> 02:07:43.880
<v Speaker 2>I've worked. They constantly reinvent the wheel, and every time

1488
02:07:43.960 --> 02:07:50.560
<v Speaker 2>that happens, casualties result, lost lives, lost treasure, and all

1489
02:07:50.640 --> 02:07:53.760
<v Speaker 2>that good stuff. That's the reason why I wrote my

1490
02:07:53.800 --> 02:07:58.159
<v Speaker 2>first book there. And in the course of my research

1491
02:07:58.279 --> 02:08:05.680
<v Speaker 2>for the first book, I literally read hundreds, that's plural,

1492
02:08:05.800 --> 02:08:11.600
<v Speaker 2>hundreds of books and field manuals and tech manuals and

1493
02:08:13.720 --> 02:08:27.000
<v Speaker 2>also non military authors who wrote on military affairs, and

1494
02:08:28.640 --> 02:08:35.239
<v Speaker 2>so I wrote an article for the Marine Corps Gizette

1495
02:08:35.840 --> 02:08:39.319
<v Speaker 2>which is kind of sets up my concern about being

1496
02:08:39.359 --> 02:08:44.039
<v Speaker 2>prepared for jungle operations. Anybody who reads it should take

1497
02:08:44.079 --> 02:08:50.199
<v Speaker 2>the lesson from that article and say, Wow, this happened,

1498
02:08:50.239 --> 02:08:54.600
<v Speaker 2>then it could happen again. Shouldn't we do something about

1499
02:08:54.600 --> 02:08:59.159
<v Speaker 2>that now? I'm afraid that it hasn't had enough circulation

1500
02:09:03.560 --> 02:09:08.760
<v Speaker 2>where it's been sufficient to have an impact. But just

1501
02:09:09.600 --> 02:09:13.000
<v Speaker 2>a couple of brief notes about that. That would be

1502
02:09:15.840 --> 02:09:22.119
<v Speaker 2>during World War one crushed World War two, shortly after

1503
02:09:22.560 --> 02:09:32.399
<v Speaker 2>Pearl Harbor, the Japanese invaded Malaysia and at that point

1504
02:09:34.439 --> 02:09:43.399
<v Speaker 2>the Brits had a multinational corps in Malaysia one hundred

1505
02:09:43.399 --> 02:09:48.239
<v Speaker 2>thousand something like that. You know a lot of people,

1506
02:09:50.239 --> 02:09:55.880
<v Speaker 2>and the Japanese kicked their asses. So they had Brits,

1507
02:09:56.479 --> 02:10:02.680
<v Speaker 2>they had Australians, they had Indian and they had Malaysian

1508
02:10:02.680 --> 02:10:14.439
<v Speaker 2>troops and they had some Dutch casualty rate and lost

1509
02:10:14.439 --> 02:10:21.239
<v Speaker 2>Malaysia within two months something like that and UH, and

1510
02:10:21.279 --> 02:10:31.159
<v Speaker 2>then then the Japanese invaded a Pua New Guinea UH

1511
02:10:31.199 --> 02:10:37.399
<v Speaker 2>and the Australians has sent three divisions to fight in

1512
02:10:37.479 --> 02:10:41.079
<v Speaker 2>North Africa and they did a great job fighting in

1513
02:10:41.159 --> 02:10:45.920
<v Speaker 2>North Africa. They were considered by the Allies as an

1514
02:10:45.920 --> 02:10:52.680
<v Speaker 2>elite echelon to forces because they had light infantry and

1515
02:10:52.720 --> 02:10:56.560
<v Speaker 2>it's like the outback, right, Yes, they had the outback. Yeah,

1516
02:10:56.560 --> 02:11:04.159
<v Speaker 2>that's true. They had that kind of territory. So the

1517
02:11:04.159 --> 02:11:07.239
<v Speaker 2>the Japanese were after Port Moresby, which was on the

1518
02:11:07.279 --> 02:11:12.880
<v Speaker 2>southern coast of uh Pa Pula and New Guinea and

1519
02:11:14.079 --> 02:11:20.600
<v Speaker 2>right across the channel from Australia. And if the Japanese

1520
02:11:20.640 --> 02:11:25.039
<v Speaker 2>were able to take Port Moresby then that would be

1521
02:11:25.680 --> 02:11:34.039
<v Speaker 2>a major threat to Australia. So Australia called in, pulled

1522
02:11:34.119 --> 02:11:42.039
<v Speaker 2>back one of its crack divisions from North Africa and

1523
02:11:43.840 --> 02:11:50.319
<v Speaker 2>they had about a week I think it's probably probably

1524
02:11:50.359 --> 02:11:53.840
<v Speaker 2>true about a week, maybe as much as a month

1525
02:11:55.000 --> 02:11:57.760
<v Speaker 2>before they were committed to a combat in North Africa

1526
02:11:57.760 --> 02:12:04.359
<v Speaker 2>against the Japanese, and the Japanese kicked their asses. This

1527
02:12:04.520 --> 02:12:08.560
<v Speaker 2>is an elite unit. Now, the New Zealand's weren't equipped.

1528
02:12:09.399 --> 02:12:18.920
<v Speaker 2>They were still wearing in rainforest, wearing shorts and knee

1529
02:12:18.920 --> 02:12:26.600
<v Speaker 2>socks and low cut boots and short sleeve shirts in

1530
02:12:26.640 --> 02:12:37.479
<v Speaker 2>an infested area. And long story short, seventy casualties for this,

1531
02:12:37.800 --> 02:12:46.760
<v Speaker 2>I think it was the seventh Australian Infantry Division. Then

1532
02:12:46.800 --> 02:12:53.039
<v Speaker 2>the Americans were called to participate, and what they wanted

1533
02:12:53.039 --> 02:12:59.560
<v Speaker 2>to do was to clean the uh, the Japanese from

1534
02:12:59.840 --> 02:13:04.520
<v Speaker 2>the ports that were on the northern coast of Papua

1535
02:13:04.600 --> 02:13:14.840
<v Speaker 2>New Guinea. UH. Now, the reason why the Australians eventually

1536
02:13:14.880 --> 02:13:22.720
<v Speaker 2>succeeded in beating back the Japanese was because our navy

1537
02:13:23.520 --> 02:13:30.680
<v Speaker 2>had cut off supply lines to Rabau and uh other

1538
02:13:30.800 --> 02:13:34.079
<v Speaker 2>islands where their bases were, and they weren't getting any supplies,

1539
02:13:34.119 --> 02:13:39.720
<v Speaker 2>they weren't getting personnel replacements, and the Japanese were starving

1540
02:13:40.920 --> 02:13:44.239
<v Speaker 2>to the point where they were actually indulging in cannibalism.

1541
02:13:46.560 --> 02:13:53.880
<v Speaker 2>Uh and UH so they they were they retired to

1542
02:13:54.000 --> 02:13:57.119
<v Speaker 2>these ports that were, you know, on the northern coast.

1543
02:13:57.960 --> 02:14:01.640
<v Speaker 2>And so the Australians and the Americans teamed up. So

1544
02:14:01.680 --> 02:14:12.039
<v Speaker 2>there was an American division that was literally boarding vessels

1545
02:14:12.439 --> 02:14:15.680
<v Speaker 2>to take them to Ireland heading in the opposite direction.

1546
02:14:15.760 --> 02:14:19.560
<v Speaker 2>When they were recalled put on trains sent across the

1547
02:14:19.640 --> 02:14:22.720
<v Speaker 2>United States, put on votes sent to Australia, sent to

1548
02:14:23.119 --> 02:14:31.079
<v Speaker 2>New Guinea. They had a seven percent counter degree. And

1549
02:14:31.199 --> 02:14:34.439
<v Speaker 2>this story goes on. You know, over and over and

1550
02:14:34.479 --> 02:14:39.159
<v Speaker 2>over again, these guys were not trained for jungle operations,

1551
02:14:39.199 --> 02:14:44.079
<v Speaker 2>and they paid for it all the way to and

1552
02:14:44.199 --> 02:14:48.319
<v Speaker 2>even when they are trained. So I mean Merrill's marauders

1553
02:14:50.039 --> 02:14:56.479
<v Speaker 2>were trained by the Chindts in India for four months

1554
02:14:57.720 --> 02:15:08.119
<v Speaker 2>I think it was, and they were effectively almost a

1555
02:15:08.119 --> 02:15:14.880
<v Speaker 2>brigade and strength by the time they were committed to Burma,

1556
02:15:15.319 --> 02:15:18.880
<v Speaker 2>and within five months they were reduced to about one

1557
02:15:18.960 --> 02:15:22.920
<v Speaker 2>hundred and twenty five people who could still stand on

1558
02:15:22.960 --> 02:15:33.359
<v Speaker 2>their feet. And these were trained. So I take a

1559
02:15:33.399 --> 02:15:37.560
<v Speaker 2>look at the the Chinese, and the Chinese have got

1560
02:15:39.199 --> 02:15:44.439
<v Speaker 2>military districts and two to three of them are along

1561
02:15:44.520 --> 02:15:50.399
<v Speaker 2>their southern border, are far jungle and rainforest. They obviously

1562
02:15:50.439 --> 02:15:57.640
<v Speaker 2>train in that environment and and we don't.

1563
02:15:58.920 --> 02:16:01.880
<v Speaker 1>One thing I would just point out before we move on,

1564
02:16:02.119 --> 02:16:05.680
<v Speaker 1>is that right now there's a real focus on drones,

1565
02:16:05.720 --> 02:16:08.880
<v Speaker 1>and everyone thinks drones or the future of warfare, whether

1566
02:16:08.880 --> 02:16:12.600
<v Speaker 1>it's the larger ones, airplane sized ones that fly surveillance

1567
02:16:12.680 --> 02:16:15.880
<v Speaker 1>missions or the small quad copter drones that you see

1568
02:16:15.920 --> 02:16:18.039
<v Speaker 1>in Ukraine all the time to fly in and kill

1569
02:16:18.079 --> 02:16:20.880
<v Speaker 1>soldiers or blow up vehicles. If we have to fight

1570
02:16:20.920 --> 02:16:23.319
<v Speaker 1>in the jungle again, I'm not saying that we won't

1571
02:16:23.359 --> 02:16:26.079
<v Speaker 1>ever use drones, but it'll be in a very very

1572
02:16:26.079 --> 02:16:27.960
<v Speaker 1>different manner than what we've seen so far.

1573
02:16:28.880 --> 02:16:32.040
<v Speaker 2>That is an excellent question. So about three years ago

1574
02:16:32.079 --> 02:16:37.959
<v Speaker 2>I went to the Soft Week here in Tampa.

1575
02:16:38.319 --> 02:16:41.000
<v Speaker 1>I'll be there this year, no good.

1576
02:16:43.520 --> 02:16:51.479
<v Speaker 2>And I went. They have a vendor displays there at

1577
02:16:51.520 --> 02:16:55.239
<v Speaker 2>their convention center here in Tampa. So I went to

1578
02:16:55.399 --> 02:17:02.719
<v Speaker 2>every drone manufacturer US drone manufacturer that was there. There

1579
02:17:02.719 --> 02:17:06.360
<v Speaker 2>was about four or five. I asked every one of them,

1580
02:17:06.760 --> 02:17:11.280
<v Speaker 2>do you have a drone that can operate under jungle canopy?

1581
02:17:12.680 --> 02:17:18.239
<v Speaker 2>And every one of them said no, And I said

1582
02:17:18.239 --> 02:17:23.280
<v Speaker 2>why not? And the answer was almost uniformly. Some one

1583
02:17:23.319 --> 02:17:27.559
<v Speaker 2>of them said I don't know, but the answer was

1584
02:17:28.200 --> 02:17:31.559
<v Speaker 2>because there was no requirement for it.

1585
02:17:32.520 --> 02:17:33.680
<v Speaker 1>There's no market for it.

1586
02:17:35.319 --> 02:17:38.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so there is no requirement for that for a

1587
02:17:38.760 --> 02:17:41.920
<v Speaker 2>drone with that kind of a capability or that wasn't then.

1588
02:17:47.239 --> 02:17:49.159
<v Speaker 2>And they said, they're not going to waste their R

1589
02:17:49.159 --> 02:17:52.399
<v Speaker 2>and D dollars on something that the military doesn't want.

1590
02:17:54.079 --> 02:18:01.520
<v Speaker 2>Why And so I've mentioned to some a number of people,

1591
02:18:02.040 --> 02:18:07.760
<v Speaker 2>uh who ought to be influential at at the six

1592
02:18:07.879 --> 02:18:13.239
<v Speaker 2>level so forth, and I said somebody needs a state

1593
02:18:13.239 --> 02:18:17.840
<v Speaker 2>of requirement for drones that will operate under canopy. Whatever

1594
02:18:17.959 --> 02:18:21.079
<v Speaker 2>that would take. I can think of a number of

1595
02:18:21.079 --> 02:18:29.000
<v Speaker 2>ways that could be done. Uh. There are ways where

1596
02:18:29.399 --> 02:18:33.520
<v Speaker 2>uh drones could be used in an unconventional warfare setting.

1597
02:18:35.559 --> 02:18:42.680
<v Speaker 2>Uh So, for example, when the Chinese it, when the

1598
02:18:42.760 --> 02:18:48.639
<v Speaker 2>Chinese UH invade the country in the Pacific island chain,

1599
02:18:50.120 --> 02:18:53.760
<v Speaker 2>they have to get there somehow, and that will be vessels,

1600
02:18:54.600 --> 02:19:00.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, Chinese uh, the p L A N the navy,

1601
02:19:00.040 --> 02:19:07.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, and uh they'll be loaded with a lot

1602
02:19:07.200 --> 02:19:09.479
<v Speaker 2>of ammunition and fuel and so forth and so on.

1603
02:19:10.440 --> 02:19:13.680
<v Speaker 2>So launching drones that those kinds of targets would be

1604
02:19:13.799 --> 02:19:18.399
<v Speaker 2>very productive because then you're cutting off their logistics change,

1605
02:19:18.639 --> 02:19:27.799
<v Speaker 2>right and uh, and so that would be productive. But

1606
02:19:28.440 --> 02:19:33.319
<v Speaker 2>how do you resupply uh an a team or a

1607
02:19:33.319 --> 02:19:38.680
<v Speaker 2>special operation team of any any service when the when

1608
02:19:38.680 --> 02:19:42.799
<v Speaker 2>we don't own the skies and we don't own the water,

1609
02:19:44.719 --> 02:19:54.520
<v Speaker 2>uh and uh uh you don't you don't have a

1610
02:19:52.719 --> 02:19:57.520
<v Speaker 2>U an adequate supply of drones? You know, how effective

1611
02:19:57.559 --> 02:20:00.360
<v Speaker 2>are you going to be? Right? The other end? Interesting

1612
02:20:00.399 --> 02:20:05.159
<v Speaker 2>thing is, and I asked this a couple a couple

1613
02:20:05.159 --> 02:20:16.879
<v Speaker 2>of times. Two military folks officer officers to include officers.

1614
02:20:17.040 --> 02:20:24.840
<v Speaker 2>I said, have you ever seen an OP plan or

1615
02:20:24.879 --> 02:20:28.799
<v Speaker 2>an OP order for that matter, that has an annex

1616
02:20:29.399 --> 02:20:33.360
<v Speaker 2>in it that describes what your unit will do if

1617
02:20:33.360 --> 02:20:41.120
<v Speaker 2>they're cut off by the enemy, which, of course I

1618
02:20:41.280 --> 02:20:47.440
<v Speaker 2>discuss in my second book. Because partisans are different from guerrillas.

1619
02:20:47.520 --> 02:20:57.319
<v Speaker 2>Partisans are conventional troops and conventional units comprised of military

1620
02:20:57.360 --> 02:21:00.760
<v Speaker 2>personnel who have been cut off from their parent unit.

1621
02:21:02.079 --> 02:21:06.719
<v Speaker 2>Gurillas are basically civilians, some of whom may have military

1622
02:21:06.760 --> 02:21:14.399
<v Speaker 2>backgrounds but are not no longer military generally speaking. So

1623
02:21:16.120 --> 02:21:19.239
<v Speaker 2>if you're cut off and in the island chain someplace

1624
02:21:20.360 --> 02:21:24.479
<v Speaker 2>from your parent unit, one of your duties is to

1625
02:21:24.520 --> 02:21:26.639
<v Speaker 2>try and reunite with your parent unit. But if not,

1626
02:21:27.120 --> 02:21:32.600
<v Speaker 2>then you should be conducting unconventional operations against the enemy,

1627
02:21:34.959 --> 02:21:41.760
<v Speaker 2>and you should be trained accordingly, and you should have

1628
02:21:42.000 --> 02:21:44.239
<v Speaker 2>some part of your UP order and your OP plan

1629
02:21:45.280 --> 02:21:51.360
<v Speaker 2>indicating what you do in the event that you're cut off.

1630
02:21:52.440 --> 02:21:58.360
<v Speaker 2>And everybody that I've asked, everybody has said they've never

1631
02:21:58.399 --> 02:22:05.719
<v Speaker 2>seen such a thing, So you know, their head is

1632
02:22:05.760 --> 02:22:08.319
<v Speaker 2>not in the game. If you follow my.

1633
02:22:08.360 --> 02:22:12.000
<v Speaker 1>Drift, yes, absolutely, And your second book that you mentioned,

1634
02:22:12.040 --> 02:22:15.559
<v Speaker 1>it's going to be sort of a manual and I'm

1635
02:22:15.600 --> 02:22:19.879
<v Speaker 1>guessing like your special Reconnaissance book, but about unconventional warfare.

1636
02:22:20.920 --> 02:22:24.120
<v Speaker 2>Yep, there's a cover out on it to cool see

1637
02:22:25.159 --> 02:22:28.120
<v Speaker 2>on Casemate would have a cover.

1638
02:22:28.280 --> 02:22:30.799
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so people can people can probably go and pre

1639
02:22:30.920 --> 02:22:31.319
<v Speaker 1>order it.

1640
02:22:32.200 --> 02:22:35.360
<v Speaker 2>They can pre order. They can pre order it from

1641
02:22:36.040 --> 02:22:39.399
<v Speaker 2>Pen and Sword and Casemate. Casemate is the US distributor

1642
02:22:39.399 --> 02:22:44.159
<v Speaker 2>for Pen and Sword, which is my publisher. It was

1643
02:22:44.799 --> 02:22:50.079
<v Speaker 2>on Amazon for pre order, but because there's been a

1644
02:22:50.120 --> 02:22:57.760
<v Speaker 2>delay in the printing, release of publish publication and release

1645
02:22:57.760 --> 02:23:03.000
<v Speaker 2>of the book, they they pulled that advertisement down from

1646
02:23:03.040 --> 02:23:09.520
<v Speaker 2>the from the page at Amazon until they have something

1647
02:23:09.760 --> 02:23:12.600
<v Speaker 2>a commitment from the publisher on when it's actually going

1648
02:23:12.680 --> 02:23:13.479
<v Speaker 2>to be available.

1649
02:23:13.840 --> 02:23:16.000
<v Speaker 1>What's the name of the book so people can go

1650
02:23:16.079 --> 02:23:16.479
<v Speaker 1>find it.

1651
02:23:18.959 --> 02:23:24.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's just just search under my name. There's always

1652
02:23:24.120 --> 02:23:24.639
<v Speaker 2>two books.

1653
02:23:25.799 --> 02:23:29.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Lieutenant Colonel Ed Wolcoff w O L C O

1654
02:23:29.520 --> 02:23:30.959
<v Speaker 1>O C O.

1655
02:23:31.079 --> 02:23:36.520
<v Speaker 2>F F that's correct. Yeah. Yeah.

1656
02:23:37.040 --> 02:23:41.520
<v Speaker 1>Well, and just a few other things. As we start

1657
02:23:41.559 --> 02:23:44.639
<v Speaker 1>to wrap up here, you also have a new article

1658
02:23:44.680 --> 02:23:46.479
<v Speaker 1>coming out about military intelligence.

1659
02:23:49.000 --> 02:23:52.360
<v Speaker 2>I've started writing on it, but I've been diverted on

1660
02:23:52.520 --> 02:23:54.799
<v Speaker 2>writing a novel right now. Okay, that I got it

1661
02:23:55.280 --> 02:23:59.319
<v Speaker 2>working on a deadline to get done. And as soon

1662
02:23:59.360 --> 02:24:03.000
<v Speaker 2>as i've i've i've dropped that, then i'll I'll finish

1663
02:24:03.079 --> 02:24:07.920
<v Speaker 2>off this article, and and that that is It goes

1664
02:24:07.920 --> 02:24:10.479
<v Speaker 2>back to this same issue. You go and ask a

1665
02:24:10.520 --> 02:24:14.440
<v Speaker 2>military audience of whatever size you like, and you ask

1666
02:24:14.520 --> 02:24:22.000
<v Speaker 2>them how many of you know what the uh the

1667
02:24:22.120 --> 02:24:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Chinese armies uh T tps and battle drills are and

1668
02:24:30.959 --> 02:24:33.079
<v Speaker 2>you will not get a single hand. I could almost

1669
02:24:33.079 --> 02:24:40.479
<v Speaker 2>guarantee ith uh and uh ah if you don't know

1670
02:24:40.760 --> 02:24:43.719
<v Speaker 2>how the enemy is going to come at you, and

1671
02:24:43.719 --> 02:24:49.559
<v Speaker 2>and then but you can be guaranteed that they know

1672
02:24:49.719 --> 02:24:52.399
<v Speaker 2>how you're going to come at them. But they don't know.

1673
02:24:53.319 --> 02:24:55.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, we don't know how they're going to come

1674
02:24:55.319 --> 02:24:58.719
<v Speaker 2>at us unless we start studying these these things and

1675
02:24:58.799 --> 02:25:03.879
<v Speaker 2>incorporating those into train. So force on force, red on

1676
02:25:04.000 --> 02:25:09.200
<v Speaker 2>blue kinds of training needs to be done, incorporating these

1677
02:25:09.280 --> 02:25:13.719
<v Speaker 2>Chinese tactics and the interesting history history about the development

1678
02:25:13.760 --> 02:25:14.600
<v Speaker 2>of their tactics.

1679
02:25:14.719 --> 02:25:18.719
<v Speaker 1>Actually, I'm actually yeah, I'm fascinated to read that myself.

1680
02:25:19.840 --> 02:25:22.280
<v Speaker 1>But you told me this novel you're working on is

1681
02:25:22.319 --> 02:25:25.440
<v Speaker 1>like ninety five percent done in the ballpark there. Do

1682
02:25:25.440 --> 02:25:27.440
<v Speaker 1>you want to give people like a thumbnail sketch of

1683
02:25:27.440 --> 02:25:28.239
<v Speaker 1>what do expect.

1684
02:25:31.079 --> 02:25:34.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's some. As a novel, of course, I take

1685
02:25:34.799 --> 02:25:37.920
<v Speaker 2>some literary license. Some of it is true, some of

1686
02:25:38.000 --> 02:25:42.600
<v Speaker 2>it is not true. Some it's based on actual events.

1687
02:25:43.719 --> 02:25:47.840
<v Speaker 2>Some are embellish events. Some of the personalities are by name,

1688
02:25:48.079 --> 02:25:56.559
<v Speaker 2>some of them are not. And but it is based

1689
02:25:56.639 --> 02:25:59.319
<v Speaker 2>on SAG operations and some of the operations that I

1690
02:25:59.360 --> 02:26:04.360
<v Speaker 2>was involved in and that materialized or did not. I know,

1691
02:26:04.399 --> 02:26:08.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm being a little mysterious here, but uh. The core

1692
02:26:08.239 --> 02:26:15.239
<v Speaker 2>of the book is about a Special Forces SAG team

1693
02:26:15.319 --> 02:26:21.520
<v Speaker 2>leader who goes off as rocker uh and uh because

1694
02:26:21.520 --> 02:26:25.559
<v Speaker 2>of the pressures of deep penetration operations, and he has

1695
02:26:26.280 --> 02:26:32.799
<v Speaker 2>personal tragedy uh with uh with a wife who committed

1696
02:26:32.799 --> 02:26:37.799
<v Speaker 2>suicide on him and stuff like that. Uh and uh

1697
02:26:39.040 --> 02:26:47.319
<v Speaker 2>he uh is uh his uh. His team teammates are

1698
02:26:47.360 --> 02:26:53.840
<v Speaker 2>thinking that he's suicidal and he's They're concerned about not

1699
02:26:53.879 --> 02:26:56.319
<v Speaker 2>only his welfare but their own. So, I mean that's

1700
02:26:56.399 --> 02:26:57.600
<v Speaker 2>that's kind of like the theme of.

1701
02:26:57.559 --> 02:27:01.719
<v Speaker 1>It, a little bit of an Apocalypse Now meets macv SAG.

1702
02:27:03.319 --> 02:27:06.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, Apocalypse Now. There was actually a character in

1703
02:27:06.639 --> 02:27:15.440
<v Speaker 2>there from SOG Yeah, the assassin captain Yeah, uh, which

1704
02:27:17.879 --> 02:27:23.440
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know that actually for years until I read

1705
02:27:23.479 --> 02:27:31.600
<v Speaker 2>an article about it. Yeah. The uh so that so

1706
02:27:31.680 --> 02:27:39.159
<v Speaker 2>that there are any number of operations that came out

1707
02:27:39.200 --> 02:27:44.479
<v Speaker 2>of SOG that could be turned into movies. Yeah, it

1708
02:27:44.559 --> 02:27:52.239
<v Speaker 2>could be turned into uh series, TV series. Uh hm

1709
02:27:52.760 --> 02:28:01.200
<v Speaker 2>that and and you know, Apocalypse Now isn't too far from.

1710
02:28:00.840 --> 02:28:05.319
<v Speaker 1>I'm I'm shocked that they haven't done that already. And

1711
02:28:05.360 --> 02:28:08.360
<v Speaker 1>the only reason I can kind of, in my imagination

1712
02:28:08.600 --> 02:28:11.319
<v Speaker 1>chalk it up to is that still to this day,

1713
02:28:11.360 --> 02:28:14.719
<v Speaker 1>there's got to be some trepidation in Hollywood about the

1714
02:28:14.799 --> 02:28:18.159
<v Speaker 1>Vietnam War. But even then, I mean, they did we

1715
02:28:18.200 --> 02:28:21.680
<v Speaker 1>were soldiers films like that. So I really don't know

1716
02:28:21.719 --> 02:28:22.680
<v Speaker 1>why they haven't made a song.

1717
02:28:22.840 --> 02:28:25.680
<v Speaker 2>If it's anti war, they'll be happy to.

1718
02:28:26.280 --> 02:28:30.520
<v Speaker 1>We were soldiers. Wasn't very anti war, It was fairly.

1719
02:28:32.440 --> 02:28:37.760
<v Speaker 2>No. You mentioned that we were soldiers, which is uh,

1720
02:28:39.399 --> 02:28:44.360
<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you at some point, I'll give you a

1721
02:28:44.399 --> 02:28:52.559
<v Speaker 2>critique of that operation. Uh. That kind of dovetails into

1722
02:28:52.920 --> 02:29:03.280
<v Speaker 2>some of the things I'm doing about uh intelligence failures. Yep,

1723
02:29:06.079 --> 02:29:16.920
<v Speaker 2>but uh, the one not Apocalypse Now, but the platoon platoon, Yes,

1724
02:29:17.120 --> 02:29:18.760
<v Speaker 2>so platoon was definitely anti war.

1725
02:29:18.879 --> 02:29:21.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1726
02:29:20.639 --> 02:29:24.559
<v Speaker 2>You got how many Academy words, I don't know. But

1727
02:29:25.719 --> 02:29:29.959
<v Speaker 2>if the if the message is anti war, then I

1728
02:29:29.959 --> 02:29:39.159
<v Speaker 2>think Hollywood would you know, entertain it. Ah. But if

1729
02:29:39.200 --> 02:29:48.360
<v Speaker 2>it's to celebrate a military operations, then you're probably right

1730
02:29:49.000 --> 02:29:51.680
<v Speaker 2>there is poison ivy to them. Yeah.

1731
02:29:51.760 --> 02:29:53.559
<v Speaker 1>I think we we at least ought to be able

1732
02:29:53.600 --> 02:29:57.399
<v Speaker 1>to celebrate the bravery and the heroism that some of

1733
02:29:57.440 --> 02:29:58.680
<v Speaker 1>these guys showed out there.

1734
02:30:00.159 --> 02:30:06.159
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, so it is would make really really dramatic impact,

1735
02:30:07.440 --> 02:30:14.079
<v Speaker 2>horrific I mean Gore so kind of yeah. So you know,

1736
02:30:14.600 --> 02:30:16.639
<v Speaker 2>to kind of give you an example of that before

1737
02:30:17.000 --> 02:30:23.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, you run out of time. Here is shortly

1738
02:30:23.319 --> 02:30:27.000
<v Speaker 2>before I arrived, maybe three months before I arrived at

1739
02:30:27.079 --> 02:30:35.879
<v Speaker 2>the CCC, UH, the fobs were organized differently. Uh. There

1740
02:30:35.959 --> 02:30:42.399
<v Speaker 2>was a commander of all the fobs H and later

1741
02:30:42.440 --> 02:30:48.959
<v Speaker 2>on they were separated out to individual fobs, all under

1742
02:30:49.000 --> 02:30:55.079
<v Speaker 2>command of lieutenant colonel. And it was at the at

1743
02:30:55.079 --> 02:30:58.200
<v Speaker 2>that juncture about a month before I got there, maybe

1744
02:30:58.239 --> 02:31:01.000
<v Speaker 2>a couple of months before I got there, where those

1745
02:31:01.639 --> 02:31:06.479
<v Speaker 2>those fobs were actually separated out under separate command. UH.

1746
02:31:06.680 --> 02:31:13.360
<v Speaker 2>And there was no capstone uh c c C or

1747
02:31:13.440 --> 02:31:16.719
<v Speaker 2>c n C commander so to speak, other than so

1748
02:31:17.040 --> 02:31:17.959
<v Speaker 2>headquarters itself.

1749
02:31:20.719 --> 02:31:36.639
<v Speaker 5>Uh and uh so the uh.

1750
02:31:32.040 --> 02:31:40.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, I forgot forgot my thread here, all right.

1751
02:31:41.600 --> 02:31:46.639
<v Speaker 2>So there was a a team leader whose name evades me,

1752
02:31:46.920 --> 02:31:56.360
<v Speaker 2>who had been on an operation uh about three weeks

1753
02:31:56.440 --> 02:31:59.239
<v Speaker 2>four weeks prior to the one I'm about to mention,

1754
02:32:00.559 --> 02:32:02.239
<v Speaker 2>and for that operation, he was put in for the

1755
02:32:02.280 --> 02:32:09.280
<v Speaker 2>medal of honor and received it. His name evades me

1756
02:32:09.360 --> 02:32:18.479
<v Speaker 2>right now, and he was Yeah, his subsequent assignment was

1757
02:32:19.239 --> 02:32:24.200
<v Speaker 2>bright Light. So he's a doctor. So a team goes

1758
02:32:25.200 --> 02:32:32.920
<v Speaker 2>is sent from CCN. Uh and at this at this point,

1759
02:32:33.760 --> 02:32:37.000
<v Speaker 2>c CC is commanded by a major, so this is

1760
02:32:37.040 --> 02:32:42.319
<v Speaker 2>lieutenant colonel sends a team to uh CCC to launch

1761
02:32:42.360 --> 02:32:53.479
<v Speaker 2>into c CC's AO, and the the team leader is

1762
02:32:53.600 --> 02:32:58.479
<v Speaker 2>kind of arrogant, thinking that he's seen everything there is

1763
02:32:58.520 --> 02:33:01.840
<v Speaker 2>to see based on his you know, the work that

1764
02:33:01.920 --> 02:33:05.440
<v Speaker 2>he did up at c c N. He goes into

1765
02:33:05.559 --> 02:33:11.040
<v Speaker 2>an area near the area that I referred to as

1766
02:33:11.079 --> 02:33:29.399
<v Speaker 2>Hotel nine earlier in the conversation and they for about

1767
02:33:29.440 --> 02:33:36.879
<v Speaker 2>a day they're moving freely, and their practice was two

1768
02:33:37.000 --> 02:33:45.200
<v Speaker 2>when they make a night defensive perimeter. Back then we

1769
02:33:45.280 --> 02:33:48.680
<v Speaker 2>called it ro o n rest. Overnight they formed a

1770
02:33:48.760 --> 02:33:59.600
<v Speaker 2>linear arrangement where the yards and the Americans would sit

1771
02:33:59.680 --> 02:34:02.399
<v Speaker 2>in a line back to back, you know, facing out,

1772
02:34:04.399 --> 02:34:06.920
<v Speaker 2>which is a horrible thing to do. That this was

1773
02:34:07.000 --> 02:34:12.120
<v Speaker 2>being taught actually at UH a long time and it's

1774
02:34:13.239 --> 02:34:20.639
<v Speaker 2>literally one rocket or would would kill most of a team,

1775
02:34:21.079 --> 02:34:26.280
<v Speaker 2>if not all of them, if fired along the long axis,

1776
02:34:26.479 --> 02:34:30.159
<v Speaker 2>So very very stupid in my view. And you don't

1777
02:34:30.159 --> 02:34:35.079
<v Speaker 2>have visibility over terrain as it varies from from where

1778
02:34:35.120 --> 02:34:39.360
<v Speaker 2>you actually are, so you catch my point. So they're

1779
02:34:39.399 --> 02:34:45.639
<v Speaker 2>in that UH and comes dawn, which is normally UH

1780
02:34:45.920 --> 02:34:54.600
<v Speaker 2>a period of a point of extreme caution. I want

1781
02:34:54.600 --> 02:34:57.840
<v Speaker 2>to be an extreme caution because that's when the North

1782
02:34:57.840 --> 02:35:03.639
<v Speaker 2>through North Vietnamese would hit reconteam after tracking them. They

1783
02:35:03.680 --> 02:35:08.559
<v Speaker 2>would close the distance and get ready to assault as

1784
02:35:08.680 --> 02:35:13.719
<v Speaker 2>dawn strikes, as the sun starts to come up. So

1785
02:35:13.799 --> 02:35:18.079
<v Speaker 2>as always, you know, you should always be very careful

1786
02:35:18.079 --> 02:35:20.319
<v Speaker 2>around that time, and this team did not take that

1787
02:35:20.479 --> 02:35:28.639
<v Speaker 2>care and one American, uh, the assistant team leader, gets

1788
02:35:28.719 --> 02:35:33.159
<v Speaker 2>up and he has to go take a crap, takes

1789
02:35:33.159 --> 02:35:37.440
<v Speaker 2>off his web gear, his rucksack is laying on the ground,

1790
02:35:37.559 --> 02:35:40.840
<v Speaker 2>He takes his weapon, and he goes down to take

1791
02:35:41.239 --> 02:35:51.520
<v Speaker 2>take a crap downslope, and just then the NBA attack, uh,

1792
02:35:52.520 --> 02:36:01.040
<v Speaker 2>and they kill everybody on the team except for the

1793
02:36:01.079 --> 02:36:07.920
<v Speaker 2>two Americans, the team leader and the radio man, two Montyards,

1794
02:36:10.040 --> 02:36:13.319
<v Speaker 2>the guy who's taking a crab, and another Montyard who

1795
02:36:13.360 --> 02:36:22.000
<v Speaker 2>managed to break away. These are north through to ME

1796
02:36:22.159 --> 02:36:26.959
<v Speaker 2>special operations personnel, and one of them is carrying a

1797
02:36:26.959 --> 02:36:32.920
<v Speaker 2>flamethrower and he lights up part of the perimeter and

1798
02:36:33.040 --> 02:36:37.079
<v Speaker 2>kills some of the montyard with a plant thrower. They

1799
02:36:37.159 --> 02:36:43.600
<v Speaker 2>capture two Montyards and the two Americans, and they take

1800
02:36:43.639 --> 02:36:52.920
<v Speaker 2>them off and they tie them to trees, and along

1801
02:36:52.959 --> 02:36:58.479
<v Speaker 2>comes an MVA officer who speaks perfect English. He knows

1802
02:36:58.520 --> 02:37:04.920
<v Speaker 2>their names, he knows the name of the team, uh

1803
02:37:06.040 --> 02:37:11.120
<v Speaker 2>and uh, who's in charge? You know, who's the team leader?

1804
02:37:11.559 --> 02:37:19.399
<v Speaker 2>All that kind of detail he knows, and he's he's

1805
02:37:19.440 --> 02:37:23.360
<v Speaker 2>happy to tell the team leader and the radio man

1806
02:37:23.520 --> 02:37:30.239
<v Speaker 2>that he knows this. And then he said, basically, he

1807
02:37:30.280 --> 02:37:34.680
<v Speaker 2>directs the flamethrower. The guy who has the flamethrower to

1808
02:37:36.040 --> 02:37:38.280
<v Speaker 2>use the flamethrower on the two Montyards who are tied

1809
02:37:38.280 --> 02:37:43.000
<v Speaker 2>to trees and burns them to a center. And meanwhile

1810
02:37:43.040 --> 02:37:47.360
<v Speaker 2>the team leader is screaming at the north end of

1811
02:37:47.440 --> 02:37:51.120
<v Speaker 2>Me's and telling him, you know, he's trying to put

1812
02:37:51.120 --> 02:37:54.479
<v Speaker 2>the bravest front that he can. He knows he's doomed,

1813
02:37:55.159 --> 02:38:03.680
<v Speaker 2>so he's basically telling him, you know, fuck you. Uh.

1814
02:38:05.680 --> 02:38:12.399
<v Speaker 2>So the uh, you know, do your worst, and and

1815
02:38:12.399 --> 02:38:18.000
<v Speaker 2>and the the this officer directs the flamethrower, tell operator

1816
02:38:18.040 --> 02:38:21.079
<v Speaker 2>to turn the flamethrower on on the team leader and

1817
02:38:21.159 --> 02:38:27.159
<v Speaker 2>burns him to a center. He doesn't do anything to

1818
02:38:27.239 --> 02:38:31.440
<v Speaker 2>the radio man, and he tells the radio man, I'm

1819
02:38:31.479 --> 02:38:37.799
<v Speaker 2>going to let you go, yeah, uh. And my purpose

1820
02:38:37.920 --> 02:38:39.719
<v Speaker 2>is that I want you to tell everybody what you've

1821
02:38:39.719 --> 02:38:50.360
<v Speaker 2>seen here today. So the uh, the guy who's out

1822
02:38:50.360 --> 02:38:53.840
<v Speaker 2>taking a dump and the other Montyard wind up getting

1823
02:38:53.879 --> 02:39:03.120
<v Speaker 2>to an Elsie and they're extracted, and the NVA take

1824
02:39:03.600 --> 02:39:07.799
<v Speaker 2>the radio man to an LZ without his equipment, without

1825
02:39:07.840 --> 02:39:14.520
<v Speaker 2>his weapon, and so forth. They leave him his his his.

1826
02:39:14.399 --> 02:39:18.360
<v Speaker 1>Panel, the VS seventeen panel.

1827
02:39:19.319 --> 02:39:26.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And so a search is conducted and they and

1828
02:39:26.399 --> 02:39:28.440
<v Speaker 2>they see the panel, and they recover this guy from

1829
02:39:28.440 --> 02:39:30.840
<v Speaker 2>an LZ and the NVA don't attempt to bring down

1830
02:39:31.079 --> 02:39:33.600
<v Speaker 2>the helicopter that retrieves him, and they take him back

1831
02:39:33.600 --> 02:39:37.760
<v Speaker 2>to the FOB and he tells this story about how

1832
02:39:37.799 --> 02:39:43.680
<v Speaker 2>they were compromised and the use of the flamethrower and

1833
02:39:43.760 --> 02:39:52.959
<v Speaker 2>all this shit. And the commander from CCN who controlled

1834
02:39:53.000 --> 02:40:02.479
<v Speaker 2>all the fobs, flies down by helicopter to doct and

1835
02:40:02.559 --> 02:40:05.600
<v Speaker 2>gets nose to nose with this poor guy, this radio man,

1836
02:40:07.879 --> 02:40:11.600
<v Speaker 2>and tells him that he's a liar and he's a coward.

1837
02:40:14.920 --> 02:40:19.719
<v Speaker 2>And meanwhile, Sabatowski is the guy who got the middle

1838
02:40:19.760 --> 02:40:25.319
<v Speaker 2>of honor. Zabatowski is there at the at the launch site.

1839
02:40:28.000 --> 02:40:37.559
<v Speaker 2>And Zabatowski goes to this officer and confronts him and says,

1840
02:40:37.600 --> 02:40:44.840
<v Speaker 2>don't you dare you know challenge that this this young man.

1841
02:40:45.440 --> 02:40:48.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm convinced that he's telling the truth, and I'm going

1842
02:40:48.280 --> 02:40:53.360
<v Speaker 2>to go in under bright light and find the remains

1843
02:40:54.479 --> 02:40:58.920
<v Speaker 2>of this team. And by now they're still trying to

1844
02:40:58.920 --> 02:41:03.120
<v Speaker 2>find the you know, the yeah, the other American and

1845
02:41:03.159 --> 02:41:11.239
<v Speaker 2>the Montyard. And he says, and if you got any

1846
02:41:11.280 --> 02:41:13.559
<v Speaker 2>hair on your balls at all, you'll come with me,

1847
02:41:14.559 --> 02:41:22.200
<v Speaker 2>And this lieutenant colonel refuses to do that. Ah, So

1848
02:41:22.319 --> 02:41:25.520
<v Speaker 2>he goes in on the operation and he finds the site.

1849
02:41:25.920 --> 02:41:29.680
<v Speaker 2>You know, he follows the trail from the US back

1850
02:41:29.719 --> 02:41:33.159
<v Speaker 2>to where this incineration had been done, and he finds

1851
02:41:33.159 --> 02:41:39.799
<v Speaker 2>all these these burnout corpses and he retrieves them, and

1852
02:41:42.760 --> 02:41:49.959
<v Speaker 2>Chief Zog finds out about how this lieutenant colonel treated

1853
02:41:50.360 --> 02:42:01.479
<v Speaker 2>this radio man and relieves him for what he did.

1854
02:42:02.360 --> 02:42:07.760
<v Speaker 2>And so wouldn't that make a great episode in a movie.

1855
02:42:08.040 --> 02:42:11.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean, yeah, it's a high drama a movie.

1856
02:42:13.280 --> 02:42:16.959
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, totally insane stories that came out of some of

1857
02:42:17.000 --> 02:42:21.799
<v Speaker 1>these missions. So again, I want to tell folks about

1858
02:42:21.840 --> 02:42:26.000
<v Speaker 1>special reconnaissance and advanced small unit patrolling written by our

1859
02:42:26.040 --> 02:42:30.000
<v Speaker 1>guests here, Lieutenant Colonel Ed Wolcoff. This is available now

1860
02:42:30.040 --> 02:42:32.719
<v Speaker 1>you can go find it, and his new book about

1861
02:42:32.799 --> 02:42:36.280
<v Speaker 1>unconventional warfare can be pre ordered over on the Casemate website.

1862
02:42:36.959 --> 02:42:39.360
<v Speaker 1>And I'll be looking forward to some of the other works,

1863
02:42:39.479 --> 02:42:41.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, your novel and your article that you're working on,

1864
02:42:41.879 --> 02:42:44.799
<v Speaker 1>Ed and otherwise. I just wanted to say thank you

1865
02:42:44.840 --> 02:42:48.479
<v Speaker 1>for coming on the show. We really appreciate it.

1866
02:42:49.840 --> 02:42:52.319
<v Speaker 2>Okay, appreciate it. Thank you.

1867
02:42:53.680 --> 02:42:56.760
<v Speaker 1>Any final thoughts before we check out for tonight.

1868
02:42:57.639 --> 02:42:59.399
<v Speaker 2>Well after you check out, wh then we can have

1869
02:42:59.680 --> 02:43:02.799
<v Speaker 2>you know, a couple other okay mentions?

1870
02:43:03.360 --> 02:43:06.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, absolutely, So for everyone else out there, we will

1871
02:43:06.959 --> 02:43:12.879
<v Speaker 1>see you guys next time. Thanks for joining us. Hey everyone,

1872
02:43:12.920 --> 02:43:14.799
<v Speaker 1>I want to tell you about my new novel The

1873
02:43:14.840 --> 02:43:18.520
<v Speaker 1>Most Dangerous Man out in June. It is a novel

1874
02:43:18.600 --> 02:43:22.799
<v Speaker 1>about a Regimental Reconnaissance Company soldier who gets kidnapped while

1875
02:43:22.799 --> 02:43:25.440
<v Speaker 1>he's on a mission to West Africa, and when he

1876
02:43:25.479 --> 02:43:28.360
<v Speaker 1>wakes up, he finds that he is now being hunted

1877
02:43:28.360 --> 02:43:31.479
<v Speaker 1>for sport by a group of tech billionaires through the

1878
02:43:31.520 --> 02:43:35.600
<v Speaker 1>wilds of West Africa. This book is based on stories

1879
02:43:35.639 --> 02:43:39.000
<v Speaker 1>that I heard over the years about safari guides taking

1880
02:43:39.120 --> 02:43:43.239
<v Speaker 1>wealthy clients hunting for poachers on game reserves in Africa.

1881
02:43:43.680 --> 02:43:46.840
<v Speaker 1>I took that and I took a century old short story,

1882
02:43:46.879 --> 02:43:50.200
<v Speaker 1>The Most Dangerous Game, and modernized it. And the product

1883
02:43:50.239 --> 02:43:53.440
<v Speaker 1>is this book, which I think will feel contemporary and

1884
02:43:53.799 --> 02:44:57.760
<v Speaker 1>resonate with audiences today. Thank you and please check it out.

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<v Speaker 2>S