1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Master of the Nez podcast, the ultimate 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:08,199 destination for anyone passionate about the electrical trade. 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,599 Speaker 2: Whether you're a season electrician, an eager apprentice, or. 4 00:00:11,759 --> 00:00:13,919 Speaker 1: Just someone who wants to dive deep into the world 5 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,480 of electrical work, you've come to the right place. 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 2: Join your host, Paul. 7 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: Abernavi, a true authority in the industry with over thirty 8 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,160 eight years of trade experience, as he electrifies your mind 9 00:00:25,199 --> 00:00:29,320 within depth discussions, expertips, and valuable insights. 10 00:00:28,879 --> 00:00:30,359 Speaker 2: That will keep you ahead of the curve. 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: Each episode, Paul will illuminate the complexities of the trade, 12 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:39,679 decode the national electrical code, and share the latest industry trends, 13 00:00:39,719 --> 00:00:42,399 all while empowering you to take your electrical career to 14 00:00:42,439 --> 00:00:46,920 the next level. So gar up, plug in, and get 15 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,960 ready to supercharge your knowledge because with the Master of 16 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,200 the Neez podcast, the power is in your hands. Now 17 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,560 get ready. Here is your host, Paul Abernavi. 18 00:01:00,799 --> 00:01:01,439 Speaker 2: What Up? What up? 19 00:01:01,479 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 3: Everybody? 20 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:07,159 Speaker 4: Hey, welcome to another episode of Mastering the nec My 21 00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:09,840 name is Paul Abernathy. Thanks for joining me on this podcast. 22 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:11,959 Remember you can listen to all of our podcasts, and 23 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,040 we have three of them. By the way, on any 24 00:01:14,079 --> 00:01:19,879 of your favorite podcasts listening platforms Spotify, Spreaker, Deezer, iHeartRadio, 25 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:25,799 Apple Podcast, Amazon Music. All you gotta do is search 26 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,760 for the podcast, and we've got three of them, so 27 00:01:28,879 --> 00:01:32,719 you could search for Master the NEC podcast all separate 28 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:37,959 words Master the n EC podcast, or you can look 29 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:42,359 for the Let's Ask Paul podcast just Let's Ask Paul podcast. 30 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,239 And our newest podcast is the Bond and Ground Podcast 31 00:01:47,959 --> 00:01:50,959 that talks about Article two fifty and all things related 32 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,200 to grounding and bonding. We dispill these myths that you 33 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,719 see floating around out there and all those other good things. 34 00:01:57,239 --> 00:02:00,719 But the podcast, we have over a thousand plus episodes 35 00:02:00,719 --> 00:02:03,400 that you can listen to, dating back many years, still 36 00:02:03,519 --> 00:02:07,680 very relevant and so check them out. And if you 37 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,599 want an easy way to listen to our podcast or 38 00:02:09,599 --> 00:02:11,680 stream them to your other devices via. 39 00:02:11,599 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 3: Bluetooth, it's just go get our free mobile app. 40 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 4: It's free, it didn't cost you anything, and we don't 41 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,000 push anything down your throat. You don't have to download 42 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,479 any bloatwear onto your phone or anything like that. Just 43 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,520 go to fasttracksystem dot com and you'll see in the 44 00:02:25,599 --> 00:02:29,680 navigation to say mobile app. That's our main website and 45 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,639 check it out and you load it on your phone 46 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,280 and you can get access to our blogs. We have 47 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,919 some great blogs, really educational blogs as well. It's always 48 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:41,879 great to learn. I believe reading is still the way 49 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:43,840 to do it. We watch a lot of videos. 50 00:02:43,879 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 3: I get it. 51 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,879 Speaker 4: I do this morning shows every day. I know it's 52 00:02:47,039 --> 00:02:49,599 very visual, but I am still a believer that you 53 00:02:49,719 --> 00:02:51,800 have to be able to read something to comprehend it. 54 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,199 And so that's you know, that's what we got going 55 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,560 on with the blogs. And of course you can watch 56 00:02:58,599 --> 00:03:01,919 Coffee Hour directly from the mobile app, you can listen 57 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,560 to the Blow podcast directly from the mobile app, and 58 00:03:05,599 --> 00:03:08,240 you can access pretty much anything, even our chat feature 59 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,840 for those that have the mobile app only on the 60 00:03:11,879 --> 00:03:14,759 mobile app, so that's pretty cool. You can attack pictures 61 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,319 and upload job site pictures and ask questions on it. 62 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,520 So it's a really great platform. Take advantage of it. 63 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,319 You do have to register separately over on the mobile app. Okay, 64 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,240 so you might be a student, you might be in 65 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,800 one of our other programs, maybe you're maybe you're a 66 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,439 subscriber or a fast Tracks two platform, all of that 67 00:03:32,479 --> 00:03:34,639 type of stuff. But at the end of the day, 68 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,080 you have to register separately on the mobile app. All right, 69 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,560 So let's get to business here, you all folks want 70 00:03:41,599 --> 00:03:43,840 to get to business. So I just recently came back 71 00:03:43,879 --> 00:03:49,439 from the twenty twenty five NFPA Knit MAM conference in 72 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,240 Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm not a big Nevada fan or 73 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,599 a Las Vegas fan, I guess because I've been there 74 00:03:55,639 --> 00:03:58,439 so many times. It's like, really, I'm not a strip guy. 75 00:03:58,479 --> 00:04:01,039 I don't walk out on the strip, hardly ever leave 76 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,080 the hotel. And usually I know I say this before, 77 00:04:04,319 --> 00:04:06,639 Usually when I'm on business trips like that, I am 78 00:04:06,639 --> 00:04:10,120 so business focused. I'm not there for me. I'm there 79 00:04:10,159 --> 00:04:14,360 for the business that I'm representing. So in these meetings, 80 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,879 I was there, and in the meetings I'm trying to 81 00:04:17,959 --> 00:04:20,839 engage in the debate that's going on on these different 82 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:22,240 cams CAM. 83 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,319 Speaker 3: By the way, it's called certified amending motion. 84 00:04:24,439 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 4: They're part of the KNITMAMS process and they're making potential 85 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,560 amendments to the public comments that were submitted during the 86 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:35,680 code development process. 87 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 3: You'all all know how that works. 88 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 4: You got public inputs where any of you can submit 89 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,439 things to the NEC and it'll be reviewed by the 90 00:04:42,439 --> 00:04:46,360 code panels. If accepted, it'll go into the published report, 91 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,680 and then of course you can make comments on those 92 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,040 things that make it through that maybe we didn't get 93 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:53,720 it right or maybe you didn't like how we did 94 00:04:53,759 --> 00:04:56,120 it okay, and then you get to make comments on that. 95 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,439 And then of course the next stage is once that's published, 96 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,800 you got what's called the nitmams and the nitmams of 97 00:05:03,879 --> 00:05:05,759 notice of intent to make a motion. And then when 98 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,720 you go there, you're actually writing what's called certified amending motions, 99 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,519 and you're amending something to the public comment, and they're 100 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:19,040 making a motion to either accept the public comment or 101 00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:23,000 reject or fail the public comment, that type of thing. 102 00:05:23,199 --> 00:05:27,839 So they're trying to amend or change or do something 103 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,879 that came out of the public comment stage. And again it's 104 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,319 your third attempt that it fine tuning something for the 105 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,839 NEC because now once this is gone, there's still some 106 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,160 minor voting that takes place correlating committees. Work gets done, 107 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,879 and next thing you know, it'll get published and we'll 108 00:05:45,879 --> 00:05:47,759 be in the next edition of the NEEC, and then 109 00:05:47,879 --> 00:05:51,639 states will start to slowly adopt it, usually within a 110 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,720 couple months, and many states it takes longer but usually 111 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:56,240 within a couple months or get some of the bigger 112 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,839 states like Massachusetts is not that it's a bigger state, 113 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,680 being where it is, it'll try to adopt it first, 114 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,360 and then you'll get Texas, usually around September of the 115 00:06:06,439 --> 00:06:10,120 year that it publishes, or the year of the book, 116 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,759 which is it's twenty twenty six, so usually around September 117 00:06:12,879 --> 00:06:15,759 twenty twenty six, they'll adopt it in Texas, and other 118 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,199 states will follow some quicker than others. So kind of 119 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,040 your last bite at the apple, if you will. Here 120 00:06:23,079 --> 00:06:26,040 in Vegas this past week, and there were quite a 121 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,759 few cams, not I don't think there. 122 00:06:28,639 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 3: Was as many as it used to be. I mean, 123 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:32,920 it was a little more reserved. 124 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,399 Speaker 4: I think maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like 125 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,000 it wasn't nobody was in a big rush this time, 126 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:40,519 and that tells me that the. 127 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:43,959 Speaker 3: Agenda just wasn't as beefy. 128 00:06:44,879 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 4: But again, a lot of good things, a lot of 129 00:06:46,639 --> 00:06:50,040 ev s E stuff on the ballot, and of course 130 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,560 the spattering of other things on the ballot that we're 131 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,120 going to talk about a few of them today. 132 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 3: Obviously I can't talk about them all. 133 00:06:56,879 --> 00:06:59,759 Speaker 4: The cams will come out once it's all said and 134 00:06:59,759 --> 00:07:02,040 done and all the dust clears and everything. 135 00:07:02,079 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 3: So I'll talk about a few today to give you things. 136 00:07:04,959 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 4: To think about and hopefully encourage you to get involved 137 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,959 in the process. So you might not agree with everything 138 00:07:12,079 --> 00:07:14,120 that that gets done at these meetings, but if you 139 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,199 don't go, or you don't get involved, or you're not 140 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,879 a voting member, you really are just kind of just watching. 141 00:07:20,639 --> 00:07:24,399 And everybody's entitled to an opinion. But again, that's what 142 00:07:24,519 --> 00:07:26,439 I said years ago. If I was going to complain 143 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:31,319 about something, I had to get involved. So anybody you listening, 144 00:07:31,839 --> 00:07:35,959 you can submit a change to the NEC. You just 145 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,920 need to make sure that it is well founded to 146 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,240 have a good chance of being accepted by the code 147 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,920 panel because these are a panel of experts. Whether you 148 00:07:44,079 --> 00:07:46,560 like it or not, everybody that sits on this panels, 149 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,360 the code making panels, has an area of expertise. They 150 00:07:50,439 --> 00:07:54,720 might not have expertise in everything that is talked about 151 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,000 on the panel that they're a member of, but they 152 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,199 have a good level expertise and it kind of helps 153 00:08:01,279 --> 00:08:06,839 balance out the committees, right or the code panels. So again, 154 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,319 it's a fair process. Can the system be gained a 155 00:08:10,319 --> 00:08:13,720 little bit Yeah, not by any other reason except for 156 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,439 certain people may have certain agendas, but they have what's 157 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,319 called influence. Means that the members of the committee or 158 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,639 the panels actually weigh their opinions very highly, and so 159 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,120 that can sway some of the individuals that may not 160 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,560 be as knowledgeable in a certain topic, but they look 161 00:08:31,639 --> 00:08:33,960 to the people that are at the table that are 162 00:08:34,759 --> 00:08:38,039 again viewed as experts, and so that has influence. Now, 163 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,159 you're not going to get rid of that process. It 164 00:08:40,279 --> 00:08:42,639 just is what it is. It's just the way it works. 165 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:46,639 You have influence in anything that gets done. So and 166 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,559 we need these people. We cannot have people at this table, 167 00:08:49,879 --> 00:08:52,799 the code panel members, We cannot have people that are 168 00:08:52,879 --> 00:08:55,279 not considered expert in there. So they're going to have 169 00:08:55,399 --> 00:09:01,360 various opinions, agendas, motivated factors, is what it is. It 170 00:09:01,519 --> 00:09:04,200 just can't get any cleaner than that. There's no way 171 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:05,480 to people say. 172 00:09:05,279 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 3: Well, it's not a fair system. 173 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,039 Speaker 4: It's gamed by the manufacturers. It's not gained by the manufacturers. 174 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:16,000 Now do the manufacturers have influence? Absolutely absolutely, Just like 175 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,240 any other expert that we're to go there and speak 176 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,840 on a certain topic, they've got influence, right, and they 177 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,200 would be foolish not to use that influence if they 178 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,360 have some kind of mission they need to achieve. Now 179 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:29,519 you would think that at the end of the day 180 00:09:29,519 --> 00:09:32,120 it's all about just electrical safety. We put all that 181 00:09:32,159 --> 00:09:34,360 aside and we're simply voting what's good for the industry. 182 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,559 That does happen. For the most part, most people you know, 183 00:09:38,639 --> 00:09:42,279 do that. Very few people going there with agendas. But again, 184 00:09:42,399 --> 00:09:45,600 influence is going to rule, and if they're very influential. 185 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,200 A lot of manufacturers are very influential. A lot of 186 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,799 people that serve for these manufacturers. They're not foolish. They 187 00:09:50,799 --> 00:09:54,840 put influential people in positions to be influential. It just 188 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,600 is what it is. So whether you like it or 189 00:09:57,639 --> 00:09:59,519 hate the system, get involved in it. If you want 190 00:09:59,519 --> 00:10:01,879 to see chain. If you don't want to see changed, 191 00:10:01,919 --> 00:10:04,120 then sit back, stop bitching and just take what you get. 192 00:10:04,159 --> 00:10:05,399 Speaker 3: But you got to be involved. 193 00:10:05,639 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 4: So during this process, there were a few cams that that. 194 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,159 Speaker 3: You know, it raises a few eyebrows on some of 195 00:10:12,159 --> 00:10:12,679 the stuff. 196 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,519 Speaker 4: But again we'll talk about a few of them and 197 00:10:14,519 --> 00:10:16,639 then I'll go just kind of give you a few 198 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:19,879 things that took place. Now, one of the first ones 199 00:10:19,919 --> 00:10:23,440 I'll talk about this cam or certified. Amending motion was 200 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,320 to accept a public comment which was eighteen fifty four 201 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,039 and they want. 202 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 3: To accept it. And in this one, this one was 203 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,240 talking about. 204 00:10:33,879 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 4: The minimum number of branch circuits in a dwelling or 205 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,840 in dwelling units. So they wanted to establish the minimum number, 206 00:10:43,879 --> 00:10:47,000 as you might have heard, the load calculation under part 207 00:10:47,039 --> 00:10:49,120 three of Article two twenty, which is going to be 208 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,960 one twenty by the way in the twenty twenty six edition, 209 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,759 so it's moving around a little bit. There was a 210 00:10:54,759 --> 00:10:56,960 big push to say, well, since we're lowering it to 211 00:10:57,039 --> 00:11:00,320 two va prespare foot, to do a load calculation and 212 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,279 let that cover all general use receptacles in general lighting, 213 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,080 that we wanted to make sure that we at least 214 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,440 established a minimum number of brand. 215 00:11:09,159 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 3: Circuits for the dwelling unit. 216 00:11:12,159 --> 00:11:18,279 Speaker 4: So one dot thirteen UH attempts to do this, and 217 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:20,360 it was a. 218 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 3: We're so used to three va. 219 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 4: Per square foot, and that's what was proposed, and that 220 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,480 what was in there also to establish for the UH 221 00:11:34,639 --> 00:11:37,879 minimum number of brand circuits even though even though we're 222 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,080 dropping it to two va per square foot for the 223 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:41,200 load calculation. 224 00:11:41,799 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 3: When it came to. 225 00:11:42,759 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 4: The part two of two twenty, which is now one 226 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:51,840 to twenty, to establish the minimum number of branch circuits. 227 00:11:51,919 --> 00:11:55,440 Minimum number now again not including small appliance. That's already 228 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,039 covered in two ten point eleven, which which is going 229 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,519 to determine the minimum number of that. And we've got 230 00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:04,320 those rules for the va per square foot covered in 231 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,240 what was to twenty now one twenty. 232 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:07,399 Speaker 3: We already have that. 233 00:12:08,279 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 4: This was really to determine the minimum number of brand 234 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:16,200 circuits when calculating the required number, and it was supposed 235 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,039 to so it was three va. 236 00:12:17,919 --> 00:12:20,159 Speaker 3: Per square foot. That's what was in the code. 237 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 4: That's what we pushed forward, that what's going to be 238 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,279 in the twenty twenty six. But then there was this 239 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,559 cam because a public comment was trying to increase it 240 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:36,279 to four va for calculating the minimum brand circuit required. 241 00:12:36,919 --> 00:12:40,399 And I think at the end of the day, three 242 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,480 va is what we've always used prior to this. You know, 243 00:12:44,519 --> 00:12:48,559 there really wasn't a minimum number of brand circuits. Prior 244 00:12:48,639 --> 00:12:51,840 to trying to establish a minimum number. You knew what 245 00:12:51,919 --> 00:12:55,159 you had to have. You base it on three VA 246 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,840 per square foot, and then of course you include in 247 00:12:57,879 --> 00:13:02,039 there the minimum of two small appliance brand circuits at 248 00:13:02,039 --> 00:13:05,480 fifteen hundred VAEA and in the laundry at fifteen hundred 249 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,679 that type of thing. But really it didn't seek to 250 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:14,840 demand the minimum number of brand circuits that had to 251 00:13:14,879 --> 00:13:17,639 be that you had to have again, not including the 252 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,600 small appliances in laundry, other circuits. Okay, we're talking the 253 00:13:20,639 --> 00:13:24,720 minimum number just general use general brand circuits. It doesn't 254 00:13:24,759 --> 00:13:27,679 really say general brand circuit. It just says in dwelling units, 255 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,080 the minimum unit loads shall be not less than it 256 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,759 gives you a volt damp here value per square foot 257 00:13:34,799 --> 00:13:40,399 to use. So the effort here was to establish a 258 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,440 number because with the reduced value per square foot for 259 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,240 the load calc, the risk was that it wouldn't be 260 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,120 it wouldn't be something where we had adequate number of 261 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,960 actual brand circuits. So this is an attempt to try 262 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:57,120 to establish a minimum number of brand circuits, again not 263 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,600 including the already required brand circuits you know, which are 264 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:08,039 different appliance brand circuits that things like that. So it 265 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,759 was three VA, but in the public comment it was 266 00:14:10,799 --> 00:14:17,039 to increase it to four VA. So this cam was 267 00:14:17,399 --> 00:14:20,519 and it was to accept the public comment of one 268 00:14:20,639 --> 00:14:24,440 eight five four in order to increase it to four 269 00:14:24,559 --> 00:14:28,000 va per square foot for calculating the minimum brand circuit required, 270 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,799 and it passed in the in the CAM meeting here 271 00:14:32,799 --> 00:14:37,600 in Vegas, so they increased that to four va per 272 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,320 square foot. And so again many people were on the forum. 273 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,519 I posted this on social and people are like, it looks. 274 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 3: Like we're going in the wrong direction. 275 00:14:45,639 --> 00:14:48,679 Speaker 4: You know, they're dropping the overall load to two va 276 00:14:48,759 --> 00:14:51,200 per square foot, but they're increased. So all this was 277 00:14:51,559 --> 00:14:54,759 tried an effort to push to make sure that you 278 00:14:54,879 --> 00:14:59,080 have a minimum number of brand circuits so they're adequate. 279 00:14:59,320 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 3: That type of thing. 280 00:15:00,639 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 4: For me, it's going to make more brand circuits. This 281 00:15:05,399 --> 00:15:09,279 means more breakers, This means you know, a bunch of 282 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:10,360 other things, but. 283 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,399 Speaker 3: At least it gives it does give us a value. 284 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,679 Speaker 4: So if somebody asks you a question about, like an 285 00:15:15,679 --> 00:15:19,200 exam question in the future, a minimum number of a 286 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,960 branch circuits, well you have to remember that the general 287 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,399 use is now going to end the twenty twenty six. 288 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:26,399 It's going to be based on four va per square foot. 289 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,440 You're obviously going to use it outside dimensions of a 290 00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:30,039 dwelling unit, just like you always did. 291 00:15:31,799 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 3: But when determining the minimum number. 292 00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 4: You're going to be using that four va per square 293 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,919 foot now, but you also have to remember, based on 294 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,120 the question, you still have your small appliance requirements minimum 295 00:15:42,159 --> 00:15:44,320 of two, You have your laundry, all these type of 296 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,200 other things that you still have to consideration. So in 297 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,799 a question about asking you how many branch circuits are required, 298 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:52,200 now you got to think there's going to be some 299 00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:56,279 minimums that you have to have. Okay, So now it's 300 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,039 going to be again like I said, based on for 301 00:15:58,240 --> 00:15:59,159 va per square foot. 302 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,919 Speaker 3: Okay, all right, so that's that one. Let's see what 303 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,000 else do we got. Okay, the next I guess. 304 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:10,639 Speaker 4: The next couple we'll look at is expansion of AFCI. 305 00:16:11,879 --> 00:16:17,879 So what we have is in the twenty twenty sixth edition, 306 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:23,360 we're adding some additional locations uh to the list in 307 00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:26,440 two ten dot twelve B. So the first one that 308 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,679 they discussed in the meetings was is cam cam to 309 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,039 is actually a committee comment seven seven four to three, 310 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:43,279 and the committee had recommended that addicts be added. 311 00:16:42,919 --> 00:16:43,519 Speaker 3: To the list. 312 00:16:44,159 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 4: Okay, So it basically if you have a one hundred 313 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,639 and twenty volt single phase ten, fifteen or twenty brand 314 00:16:52,679 --> 00:16:57,360 circuit supplying outlets or devices installed in the following locations, 315 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,799 shar I be protected by any of the means described 316 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,000 ten twelve A, which is a list of the different 317 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,759 options you have for AFCI protection. But in the the 318 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,200 brand circuits, and this is very much a brand circuit requirement. 319 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:12,519 Speaker 3: Okay, that's what you know. 320 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 4: ARC fault is about the circuit, whereas GFCI isn't. T 321 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,400 ten dot eight A and B for example, are about 322 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:20,200 a receptacle. 323 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,319 Speaker 3: So addicts was added to the list. 324 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,839 Speaker 4: And so any of your fifteen, ten, ten, fifteen or 325 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:30,039 twenty eight brand circuits. And we'll talk why ten is 326 00:17:30,039 --> 00:17:33,039 going to be irrelevant in the future. I'll talk about 327 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:37,519 that later. But anyway, these brand circuits, if they're supplying 328 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,599 are going into the attic into those locations, then they're 329 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,680 going to be AFC I protected. Now, reality is probably 330 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,640 most of the circuits that were going up and through 331 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,680 an attic anyway, we're probably going to a location that 332 00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:55,720 required a FCI protection on that circuit anyway. So in 333 00:17:55,759 --> 00:18:01,000 probably not a massively impactive change. Will it will change 334 00:18:01,079 --> 00:18:04,680 is that if you are running a circuit up into 335 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,160 the attic for whatever reason, then it would have to 336 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,279 be AFC I protected. So I don't know that this 337 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,359 is that much of a big deal of a change, 338 00:18:14,079 --> 00:18:16,440 but it is adding another thing to the. 339 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,319 Speaker 3: List, which again I don't personally. 340 00:18:21,039 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 4: Didn't hear enough justification for it. When somebody says that, ooh, 341 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,279 a house burnt down because of a circuit in the attic, 342 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,599 I sometimes question the data because I'm looking at it 343 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,920 going okay, well, if there was was it installed when 344 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,960 there wasn't a requirement anyway to have it? So it 345 00:18:36,039 --> 00:18:38,119 was complying at the time of installation. But ooh, we 346 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,240 have one fire all of a sudden, Now we're going 347 00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:41,720 to throw addicts in the mix. 348 00:18:43,079 --> 00:18:43,559 Speaker 3: I don't know. 349 00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 4: But again, what's the difference in hallways? What's the difference 350 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,480 in closets? Right, what's the difference. So at the end 351 00:18:49,559 --> 00:18:52,599 of the day, addicts has been added to the list. 352 00:18:53,279 --> 00:18:55,079 And for those that are looking these things up, this 353 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,920 is CAM seventy dash eighty eight. By the way, if 354 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,480 you're kind of these are all available on NFPA's website. 355 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:04,200 This is not inside knowledge. This is all available publicly 356 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,559 available for you to look at. And so again you 357 00:19:08,559 --> 00:19:12,440 can check check that out. But again that the effort 358 00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:17,920 there was to get attics added to the list and 359 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,319 it succeeded. So addicts is now in the list of 360 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,720 two ten dot twelve Buh. So, any branch circuit that's 361 00:19:24,759 --> 00:19:27,519 going to be running ten fifteen or twenty eight brand 362 00:19:27,599 --> 00:19:33,000 circuit that's going to be going into the attic, then again, 363 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:38,240 if it's supplying outlets or device is installed in the attic, Okay, 364 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,119 not necessarily on a circuit that's not required to be. 365 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:47,480 I'm give you an example. So the circuit for the receptacles, 366 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,079 let's say for the bathroom receptacle circuit, Okay, that could 367 00:19:52,079 --> 00:19:54,240 go up and through the attic and then down, let's 368 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,720 say into the bathroom. There's nothing in to ten dot 369 00:19:58,759 --> 00:20:03,640 twelve B that lists bathrooms when it comes to like 370 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,519 receptacle applications. Okay, there's nothing in there that says, oh 371 00:20:06,559 --> 00:20:07,559 well it goes through the attic. 372 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 3: No, no, no, no. 373 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 4: This this says all one hundred and twenty vote nominal 374 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,640 single phase ten fifteen or twenty eight brand circuits supplying 375 00:20:15,759 --> 00:20:18,319 outlets or devices. 376 00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 3: Installed in those locations. So this is going to be 377 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:21,119 germane to. 378 00:20:22,759 --> 00:20:26,799 Speaker 4: Any lighting outlet that may be installed in the attic, 379 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,720 or any receptacle that's going in an outlet box that's 380 00:20:29,759 --> 00:20:31,799 installed in the attic, that type of thing, which in 381 00:20:31,839 --> 00:20:37,079 all honesty is probably probably being supplied by a circuit 382 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,359 that already has AFC OAR protection like popping off of 383 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,519 the hallway receptacle and just going up in the attic 384 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,000 or or you know, off of a bedroom or living 385 00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:46,160 room or. 386 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:47,839 Speaker 3: You know, something like that. 387 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 4: So it's probably already, but it just you know, it's 388 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,720 just making it very clear that it has to supply 389 00:20:54,799 --> 00:20:57,880 now for those that run the home runs. Okay, very 390 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,240 common to people to run a home, run up there 391 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,319 and hit a lighting outlet. 392 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:09,039 Speaker 3: And also it may power smoke alarms throughout the house 393 00:21:09,079 --> 00:21:09,759 through that circuit. 394 00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 4: And so again if it's going to go up and 395 00:21:14,559 --> 00:21:17,759 hit an outlet, and again let's not confuse outlet. There's 396 00:21:17,759 --> 00:21:22,079 it's old folks, you know, the style cups and the 397 00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:26,599 the whack hackers or the uh, what's his name, Willie 398 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,039 Jackson whatever, Fakerson, whatever the hell his name is, who 399 00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:33,000 believe they don't understand the definition of outlet. They still 400 00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:35,559 don't understand the definition outlet. They try to get that 401 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,759 change that is woefully rejected because it's very important that 402 00:21:40,759 --> 00:21:43,680 we understand that outlet is a very broad term that 403 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,400 we need to understand as professionals how we use it. 404 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:52,119 A receptacle is a device totally different. So anyway, so 405 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,440 in this case right here, it's just important to remember 406 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:01,319 that if that circuit stops at an outlet or device 407 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,720 in the attic, then it's going to be required that 408 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,680 that has AFCI protection on it. Again, that's not going 409 00:22:07,759 --> 00:22:10,079 to have anything to do with a cable from a 410 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,119 circuit that's not required to have GFCI. I mean AFCI 411 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,039 excuse me, that passes up through the attic and then 412 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,680 down to wherever it's going to go. That's that's not 413 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,640 what this rule is about. So just kind of keep 414 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:21,240 that in mind. 415 00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:27,039 Speaker 3: Okay, The next one stick sticking with the AFCI concept 416 00:22:27,079 --> 00:22:31,720 here or the topic of afcis is CAM seventy dash 417 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:32,640 eighty nine. 418 00:22:32,759 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 2: Now. 419 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 4: The last one again just keeping them together. The last 420 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,680 one was CAM seventy dash eighty eight. By the way, 421 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,920 so this is CAM certified amending motion seventy dash eighty nine. 422 00:22:43,519 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 3: Now in this. 423 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:49,559 Speaker 4: One they seek to add the term bathroom lighting outlets. 424 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,240 So this is again now we're introducing the bathroom, but 425 00:22:54,319 --> 00:22:56,200 we're only introducing the. 426 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,599 Speaker 3: Lighting outlets that are in the bathroom. 427 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 4: So you're lighting over your vanity, you're lighting in your ceiling, 428 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,759 those type of things. Just the bathroom lighting outlets, not 429 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,599 your exhaust fan, that type of thing. Now, one of 430 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,160 the things here it may not be as impactful to 431 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,160 many people because they say, look, the bathroom lighting outlet, 432 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,119 I just pull it off the bedroom that's next to 433 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,920 it or the hall. Anyway, I don't have to run 434 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,720 anything special for the lighting. Okay, it's not like that's 435 00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:29,000 got to be on a twenty brand circuit. Just like 436 00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:33,240 the receptacles that are in the serving the basin or 437 00:23:33,279 --> 00:23:35,440 the sink in a bathroom, we're not. 438 00:23:35,319 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 3: Talking about that. So this is the bathroom lighting outlets. 439 00:23:38,519 --> 00:23:43,039 Speaker 4: Now, how can this impact the receptacles in this room. Well, 440 00:23:44,079 --> 00:23:46,000 how it would impact it is if you're using the 441 00:23:46,079 --> 00:23:50,599 exception where I'm running the ability to be able to 442 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,240 do both the lighting and the receptacles inside of a 443 00:23:54,279 --> 00:23:58,440 bathroom because that circuit doesn't leave that bathroom. Well, if 444 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,240 you're going to run that one circuit and pick up 445 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,599 the receptacles, which obviously have to be GFCI protected, but 446 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,599 it also now picks up the lighting outlets, that's going 447 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,480 to change the story, You're gonna have to go with 448 00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:14,519 a dual function and utilize that which dual function is 449 00:24:14,519 --> 00:24:17,000 going to cover GFCI and FC. That's an easy way 450 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,119 to do it, you know, you can. You can have 451 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,200 an a FCI breaker and have a GFCI receptacle and 452 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,039 still comply. 453 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:25,519 Speaker 3: They work very good together. 454 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,279 Speaker 4: I think something that was a little unnerving not and 455 00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:32,000 I'm not being picky here and I'm not calling out anybody, 456 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,480 but when a manufacturer who's promoting these things and pushing 457 00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:38,960 these and again the bathroom lighting out I don't you 458 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,880 know some obscure issues somewhere in the country where maybe 459 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,680 one of those circuits calls something and I'm like whatever, 460 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,079 I mean again, we're you know, we can't take one 461 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,480 incident and change everything, and sadly we sometimes do that 462 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,720 or people use it as ammunition to change the code, 463 00:24:54,759 --> 00:24:56,519 and I'm like, dude, it's just one incident or an 464 00:24:56,559 --> 00:24:58,039 isolated things are gonna happen. 465 00:24:58,519 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 3: We don't need to change the entire code because of 466 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:01,240 something like that. 467 00:25:01,759 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 4: But anyway, obviously something happened, and so they introduced this 468 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:07,559 bathroom lighting outlet. 469 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 3: But what was concerning to me is when. 470 00:25:10,559 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 4: The manufacturer a leading manufacturer of these devices came to 471 00:25:16,039 --> 00:25:21,720 the podium and called the AFCI and GFCI devices. He 472 00:25:21,839 --> 00:25:25,039 called them combination. Now, y'all been listening to me for years, 473 00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:28,559 and y'all know that that is not what combination means. 474 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,480 It has nothing to do with AFCI and GFCI. Combination 475 00:25:32,759 --> 00:25:35,599 has to do with the detection of parallel and series arcs. 476 00:25:36,319 --> 00:25:39,240 That's big difference than something that would be like a 477 00:25:39,319 --> 00:25:42,640 dual function that's functioning as a GFCI and also can 478 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,920 simultaneously function as an AFCI. 479 00:25:45,519 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 3: Big difference in terminologies. 480 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 4: But when you're going for credibility in the manufacturer is 481 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,000 the one that's at the mic pleading for expansion, you 482 00:25:55,039 --> 00:25:57,359 would think that they would take the time to understand 483 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,480 that there's a difference between a dual function. There's a 484 00:26:00,519 --> 00:26:05,200 difference between combination and they're they're not the same. And 485 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,559 in the context of the way he was speaking, he 486 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,000 was talking about AFCI and GFCI and he called it 487 00:26:10,039 --> 00:26:13,720 a combination. Again, could be just a Freudian slip of 488 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,279 the tongue, But when you're a manufacturer and you're in 489 00:26:16,319 --> 00:26:20,799 a room of experts, you you do lose a little 490 00:26:20,839 --> 00:26:25,200 bit of credibility when you hear that, because you're like, dude, 491 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,079 you're supposed to be the expert for your manufacturer and 492 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,400 you're you're not sure what a combination really does. So 493 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,519 I'm just saying it out there. I didn't mean, I'm 494 00:26:35,559 --> 00:26:40,160 not mean. I'm just saying it. You know, most people 495 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,119 just it would say, yeah, we know what they're talking about. 496 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,880 We're not going to argue that, I get it. But 497 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,319 some of us that are, you know, looking at these 498 00:26:47,319 --> 00:26:52,799 type of things really kind of focus on that type. 499 00:26:52,599 --> 00:26:55,839 Speaker 3: Of rhetoric and it's it's important. 500 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,079 Speaker 4: Okay, let's see here, what's the what's the next one 501 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,240 we want to look at. Okay, there were a couple 502 00:27:02,599 --> 00:27:10,720 cams that were submitted to add a new conductor to 503 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:17,960 for things like the concrete and cased electrodes, and that 504 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,240 was a forty percent copper clad steel conductor that was 505 00:27:23,279 --> 00:27:27,759 to be added to one of the to be the 506 00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:31,079 actual connection. So y'all are familiar. When we use concrete 507 00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:35,039 case electrodes, we use either four gauge copper twenty feet 508 00:27:35,079 --> 00:27:41,240 in length, or we do rebar half inch diameter rebar right, okay, 509 00:27:41,319 --> 00:27:43,920 so not less than half inch and one of the 510 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,319 one of the other methods was we could use bear 511 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,160 copper and before gauge and at least twenty feet. Well, 512 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,000 they had there was an introduction here to try to 513 00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:57,599 get forty percent copper clad steel as a conductor to 514 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,920 be used with the connection for these concrete case electrodes, 515 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,240 or to be used as twenty feet of forty percent 516 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:10,839 copper clad steel conductor of four gauge, and that was withdrawn. 517 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,240 So that was a seventy dash thirty eight and again, 518 00:28:16,319 --> 00:28:18,640 so that was for a concrete cased electrodes. 519 00:28:19,559 --> 00:28:21,319 Speaker 3: The ability to be able to use. 520 00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 4: Twenty feet of forty percent copper clad steel no smaller 521 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,799 than four that was withdrawn. So that's not going to 522 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,519 be in our code for that, okay, So that one, that. 523 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 3: One took place. Same thing for ground rings, there was. 524 00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 4: A proposal to introduce whereas ground rings you have to 525 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,440 have at least twenty feet of bear copper not smaller 526 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,000 than two gauge. Well, there was an introduction of a 527 00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:50,440 CAM seven dash forty one that was going to introduce 528 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,200 forty percent copper clad steel as a conductor that could 529 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,200 be used as a ground ring. That was withdrawn as well. 530 00:28:57,279 --> 00:28:59,039 So you're not going to see that it's going to 531 00:28:59,079 --> 00:29:02,720 be just copper. Uh, and it's not smaller than two gates, 532 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,400 so we're talking about ground rings. That is two fifty 533 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,759 fifty two A four by the way, for those that 534 00:29:07,799 --> 00:29:10,359 are following along, And that was based on a public 535 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,839 comment one ninety three, but the CAM was withdrawn at 536 00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:16,599 the last minute, so you're not going to see that 537 00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:23,640 in there. Let's see here, what else do we have? Okay, 538 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,960 the next one that we'll look at was a quite 539 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,839 lengthy debate that went on talking about search protective devices, 540 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,200 and I think the crux of this argument was that 541 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,960 the code panel feels that the if you had a 542 00:29:39,039 --> 00:29:41,920 dwelling unit, whether it's a single family dwelling or not, 543 00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:47,279 that two thirty sixty seven A requires that you have 544 00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:53,400 SPDs at the service, right, So this one is under 545 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,880 two fifteen ninet eighteen A. So this means that if 546 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,200 I have a even if it's a single family dwelling, 547 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,720 and I have a remote service, means it's away from 548 00:30:01,759 --> 00:30:02,240 the structure. 549 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be on it or in it. 550 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:04,680 It can be remote. 551 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,039 Speaker 4: And I've done that before, and so you end up 552 00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:10,720 having a feeder that's going to the dwelling, okay, but 553 00:30:10,839 --> 00:30:13,920 the SPD is out at wherever the service is located, 554 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,920 that type of thing. And so the submitter during the 555 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,119 public comment stage nineteen thirty eight was the home builders 556 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,960 and they were like, well, we wanted to say surge 557 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:30,079 protection on the feeders to dwelling units of multifamily buildings, 558 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:32,759 so it could only be required for those multi family 559 00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:36,960 which is three dwelling units and more that those were 560 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,119 the only ones that required the surge protection on the 561 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,440 feeder application. Now, remember two thirty sixty seven already requires 562 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,519 SPDs at the service. So his attempt, or the submitter's attempt, 563 00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:52,720 was to say, look, you only need the SPDs for 564 00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:56,440 the dwelling units that are supplied with a multi family building. 565 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,240 So basically, if I have a single family dwelling and 566 00:31:01,359 --> 00:31:05,160 the service requires an SPD that they wanted at the 567 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,559 dwelling and in the code panel members or this. They 568 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,119 rejected this and said, look, if you add that of 569 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,799 the multifamily building, then that means it's going to leave 570 00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:19,400 out those folks that have this single family dwelling that 571 00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:22,920 has the surge protected device at the service which may 572 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,240 be remote from the dwelling and they're supposed to monitor 573 00:31:27,319 --> 00:31:29,079 it and look at it and check it and do 574 00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:33,319 all this kind of stuff. But if you did it 575 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,279 that way and you added that of a multifamily building, 576 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,920 then they would not be putting the surge protection device 577 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,839 at the feeder location at the dwelling unit, and then 578 00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:44,759 they were worried that would raise. 579 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 3: A safety concern. So here's my thing. 580 00:31:50,039 --> 00:31:52,839 Speaker 4: I would prefer to have a search protected device out 581 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,880 there wherever the service is, even if it's remote. If 582 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,559 a SPD does its job properly, then I will know 583 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,440 every homeowner's responsibility to know where their service is it is. 584 00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:07,319 You know, there's really nothing that they do to that. 585 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,680 It's it's just it's responsible ownership. Hell, they don't even 586 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,319 know what to look at when they go in their panels. 587 00:32:13,319 --> 00:32:16,240 So really, so we already have a requirement for the 588 00:32:16,279 --> 00:32:20,680 SPDs to be on the service and just because on 589 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,799 a dwelling unit it may be remote, because maybe it's 590 00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:27,160 a large single family dwelling and it's not mounted on 591 00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:31,920 or in, maybe it's a remote if it's required to 592 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,119 be in two thirty dont sixty seven to service. The 593 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,119 whole issue here is, I don't think and you already 594 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,720 have an allowance, by the way, in two thirty donts 595 00:32:40,759 --> 00:32:42,759 sixty seven, to not do it at the service. You 596 00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:45,440 can do it downstream, so you could already do it 597 00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:50,839 at the feeder location. Obviously, if that service is supplying 598 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,359 that feeder is supplying the entire dwelling because it's remote, 599 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,640 then you do have options to do this under two 600 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:57,599 thirty dots sixty seven. 601 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 3: So that's already covered. 602 00:32:58,519 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 4: So the pro one that we have in two fifteen 603 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,640 eighteen A is is so much confusion where people send 604 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,039 me all the time and go, okay, it says feeder 605 00:33:07,079 --> 00:33:07,759 dwelling units. 606 00:33:07,759 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 3: So what happens, Paul? 607 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,079 Speaker 4: If I have a service outside and I'm feeding a 608 00:33:11,079 --> 00:33:13,519 feeder panel inside, do I now have to put it 609 00:33:13,559 --> 00:33:17,000 also on the panel inside? And so I think it 610 00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:21,920 just becomes confusing for people, I'd be honest with you. 611 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,519 In the code panel, when they rejected this, their response 612 00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:32,200 was that just like gfcies, just like breakers, they have 613 00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:36,680 to reset, just like replacing batteries on smoke alarms, the 614 00:33:36,799 --> 00:33:39,440 occupant has to have the responsibility. 615 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 3: Well, I also. 616 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 4: Believe that the homeowner has the responsibility to know to 617 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,440 where the hell their service disconnect is and if it 618 00:33:46,519 --> 00:33:50,440 is remote behind a board twenty feet from the house, 619 00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:52,440 behind a wall because they don't want it to be 620 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:57,279 in view. That's where the SPD goes, and they use 621 00:33:57,359 --> 00:34:00,400 the exception to put it downstream at the at the 622 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,039 feeder panel downstream if they want, they use the two 623 00:34:03,079 --> 00:34:05,839 thirty sixty seven allowance to do this, and that is 624 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:07,720 up to the designer. They can put it in the 625 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,199 service equipment or they can follow the exception. This, to me, 626 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:17,679 two fifteen needed to be more addressed to those situations 627 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:21,880 where the occupant does not necessarily have access to these things, 628 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,920 whether they're supposed to or not. For example, in multi 629 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,519 family dwellings where they really don't have access to their 630 00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:32,679 service disconnect. They have access to what's in their unit, 631 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,400 but they can't get down into a locked equipment room 632 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,840 which is still accessible to qualified persons because. 633 00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 3: It's behind a key. 634 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 4: Okay, those that need to get there, But I don't 635 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,760 think it, and I've seen it. Tenants do not have 636 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,119 access into those rooms. They have access to the panel 637 00:34:46,119 --> 00:34:49,960 that's in their unit. So I think that it just 638 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,000 personally we missed the boat on what was trying to 639 00:34:54,039 --> 00:34:56,880 be done here. I think if you're own a single 640 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,119 family dwelling. It is incumbent on you to whether your 641 00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:04,039 panel service is not on your structure or in your 642 00:35:04,079 --> 00:35:07,079 structure or remote And if that's where the SPD is, 643 00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:11,840 then search protected device. Then it's on you to understand 644 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,719 where that is. It's your home. You need to be 645 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,840 fully aware of the systems that are in your home. 646 00:35:16,159 --> 00:35:18,760 If not, you hire a licensed electrician. 647 00:35:18,199 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 3: To do this stuff. You don't go screwing with it. 648 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:26,159 Speaker 4: Okay, if the SPD gets taken out, then again you 649 00:35:26,159 --> 00:35:28,480 know you're gonna call an electrician. It's not something you're 650 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,440 gonna mess with anyway. Plus, again, you can negotiate this 651 00:35:32,639 --> 00:35:35,719 with your electrician installs it. He could decide to put it. 652 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,559 If it's a remote service equipment, you have an allowance 653 00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:41,920 into thirty points sixty seven to put it downstream. 654 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,519 Speaker 3: You do have the ability to do that. 655 00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 4: So to me, this one really should have been reserved 656 00:35:48,079 --> 00:35:52,519 for the dwelling units that are where the occupant can't 657 00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:56,800 really get to where the service would be. In my opinion, 658 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,920 so again, probably could have been a little bit better. 659 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:01,920 But we had a lot of people come up to 660 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,519 the mic passionate about. 661 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 3: If my house burned down, if it wasn't for the 662 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:06,880 SPDs on the dwelling units. 663 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 4: It was No, this was not removing the SPD requirement 664 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:11,079 for the dwelling unit. 665 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:17,559 Speaker 3: This was just clarifying the application. You already have SPD 666 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,800 requirements into thirty sixty seven and an exception to allow 667 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,840 it to be downstream in the case that they brought up. 668 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 4: For the feeder. You already have that allowance in there. 669 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,199 So I didn't see this. This didn't make sense to me. 670 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,199 I guess somebody can explain why it's a big deal, 671 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,320 but to me it we already have the requirement forrespds. 672 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 3: At dwelling units. 673 00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 4: So I think we needed to focus on where we 674 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,639 probably aren't going to have SPDs, and that is in 675 00:36:43,679 --> 00:36:46,800 the individual dwelling units of multi family buildings. That's probably 676 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,360 where we're not going to have any SPD. I'm just saying. 677 00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:52,480 So anyway, we already have that covered in my opinion, 678 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,400 But anyway, it's what it is, what it is. 679 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,199 Speaker 3: So that was CAM number seventy dash seventy. 680 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 4: Nine for those that are following along, and so all 681 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,639 it did was just revert back to the way it 682 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,639 is was in the twenty twenty three no big change. 683 00:37:06,639 --> 00:37:10,239 It just was trying to clarify what maybe the intent 684 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,199 of it was, but it just didn't make it. 685 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,679 Speaker 3: So is what it is? Okay. 686 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,679 Speaker 4: The next one that was quite a lengthy debate on 687 00:37:19,519 --> 00:37:26,639 was talking about the EVSs and ground fault circuit interrupter 688 00:37:27,079 --> 00:37:31,079 as well as special purpose ground fault circuit interrupters, whether 689 00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:33,519 it's cordon plug or even hardwired. So y'all all are 690 00:37:33,519 --> 00:37:35,559 familiar with what the code says right now, right with 691 00:37:35,639 --> 00:37:37,559 ev s C. If I'm gonna let's just use a garage, 692 00:37:37,639 --> 00:37:41,239 just keep it simple. If I'm putting a receptacle in 693 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,679 a garage, again to ten point eight, A is going 694 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,119 to require to be gfc I protected, okay, if you 695 00:37:48,159 --> 00:37:51,840 put a receptacle in there, and so in this case, 696 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,960 it also says that all receptacles in six twenty five 697 00:37:56,199 --> 00:37:57,920 fifty four have to be gfc I protected. 698 00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 3: So we get this question all the time. 699 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,599 Speaker 4: If I put an e VSE electric vehicle charger, let's 700 00:38:02,599 --> 00:38:05,199 just say in a garage, let's just talk garages, keep 701 00:38:05,199 --> 00:38:08,159 it simple, sweet, and I put a receptacle in their 702 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,400 in it needs GFCI. 703 00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 3: Protection on that recept for that receptacle. 704 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,519 Speaker 4: It does not matter what's built into the evse E, 705 00:38:16,559 --> 00:38:20,360 whether it's CCID or whether it's its own ground fault protection, 706 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,840 it's typically not going to meet the Class A requirement, 707 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,360 which is the four to six million amps. And because 708 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,719 the NEC demands the protection of the receptacle, that means 709 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,320 that nothing you plug into it can take the place 710 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,679 of the requirement of the GFCI to be for the receptacle. 711 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,199 This makes sense, So that's why it doesn't matter what 712 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,840 the EVS E has. This is a receptacle rule, okay. 713 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,480 And so again all to ten doint eight a's are 714 00:38:46,519 --> 00:38:52,159 receptacle rules. Uh six fifty four is a receptacle rule, okay. 715 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:59,880 So in the twenty twenty six provision it was introducing 716 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:07,440 to have the GFCI requirements to apply not just to 717 00:39:07,679 --> 00:39:12,320 the cord and plugs for the receptacle, but also for 718 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:19,039 the hardwired ev SS Okay. So significant change because you 719 00:39:19,119 --> 00:39:22,320 hear manufacturers all the time say we don't want our 720 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,440 ev S one a GFC I a typical Class A 721 00:39:27,519 --> 00:39:31,880 gf C I because inner noncompatibility issues. But it really 722 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,840 has to do with the circuitry of the ev S 723 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,679 E and what it's looking for and its technology is 724 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,320 a little different, and I won't get into the minutia, 725 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,400 but what I will tell you is that you had 726 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,800 the major manufacturers of these ev s s there advocating 727 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:56,280 to say, look, we got problems with putting ev s 728 00:39:57,679 --> 00:40:01,400 hardwiring it. We have real problems with the fact that 729 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,280 if you're going to require GFCI on it, then it 730 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,960 could cause issues. And we already know that charge point. 731 00:40:09,039 --> 00:40:10,440 I've got a called the other day from a guy 732 00:40:10,559 --> 00:40:12,880 says it just will not hold. It will not He's 733 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,400 trying to meet the code, and it says right in 734 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,920 there to hardwire it, not to put it on a GSCI, 735 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,559 because if you hardwire it, you don't have to comply 736 00:40:21,679 --> 00:40:26,280 with the GFCI requirement because it's not a receptacle in 737 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:31,440 the garage, right, it's hardwired. So currently, in the twenty 738 00:40:31,519 --> 00:40:34,639 twenty three edition of the NEC six twenty five fifty 739 00:40:34,639 --> 00:40:38,280 four says all receptacles installed for the connection of an 740 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,800 EV charger, okay, electric vehicle chargers shall have ground fault 741 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,360 circuit and reprotection for personnel. That means again that nothing 742 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,519 built into the EVS can take the place of this. 743 00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:52,639 This is a receptacle protection rule. Can people lose a 744 00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:54,000 lot of sight of this. 745 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,079 Speaker 3: This is clear. 746 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,760 Speaker 4: If it's going to be a cord and plug to 747 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,320 a receptacle, ev S is going to require ground fault 748 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:07,079 circuit interrupted protection for personnel. The GFI or the GFP 749 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,599 or the CCID or whatever it is that's built into 750 00:41:11,599 --> 00:41:14,519 an EVS cannot take the place of the four to 751 00:41:14,599 --> 00:41:19,559 six million amp class AGFCI requirement that is governed by 752 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,079 two ten dot eight A as well as six twenty five 753 00:41:23,119 --> 00:41:29,360 dot fifty four. Okay, So the attempt in the twenty 754 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:35,400 twenty six NEC was to expand this now and say, okay, 755 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,199 wait a minute, So let's give rules for cordon plug 756 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,880 connected for those receptacles. Obviously, cordon plug that are eight 757 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,039 one hundred fifty volt or less to ground. Okay, that's 758 00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:48,639 your one twenty two to forty volte. That's all qualify 759 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:53,800 under that to have GFCI for personnel protection. So that's personnel, 760 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,920 not equipment protection like a GFP or something like that. 761 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:02,199 This is for personnel protection. Now, that's a typical class AGFCI. 762 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,079 Four to six million amps with the five millionamp nominal 763 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:06,559 is what we're all familiar with. 764 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 3: That's what that's calling for. 765 00:42:09,519 --> 00:42:13,679 Speaker 4: Now, you do have receptacles that might be greater than 766 00:42:13,679 --> 00:42:16,639 one hundred and fifty volts to ground. Okay, well, that 767 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,800 is where they introduce what's called the special purpose ground 768 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,000 fault Circuit interrupter. Now, the thing to remember about those 769 00:42:23,199 --> 00:42:28,280 is the millionamp threshold, okay, or not to exceed twenty 770 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,719 million amps for personnel protection on those. Okay, So the 771 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,480 ground fault trip current can exceed twenty million amps. That 772 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,800 remind you that they do make some that do google these. 773 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,239 They do have like class B type GFCIs that'll go 774 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,719 higher than twenty million ams. But this isn't critical because 775 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,360 it says it, look, if it's greater than one hundred 776 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,519 fifty volta ground, all receptacles rated greater than one hundred 777 00:42:50,519 --> 00:42:54,360 and fiftyvousa ground shall have SPGFCI And basically that's just 778 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,119 a higher million am threshold. 779 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:56,599 Speaker 3: Okay. 780 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,760 Speaker 4: So you have these two requirements for the court and plug. Okay, 781 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,480 it's not a it's not dictating anything to do with 782 00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:07,599 the amps or anything like that. It's very specific, okay. 783 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,760 It's just dealing with one hundred and fifty volts or 784 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,320 less to ground and then greater than one hundred fifty 785 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,480 votes to ground. Both when you're dealing with receptacles, you're 786 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,599 gonna have either regular class AGFCI or you're gonna have 787 00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:23,480 to have a special purpose GFCI, which has a higher 788 00:43:23,599 --> 00:43:28,000 millionam threshold. It's just not exceeding twenty million amps. Okay, Well, 789 00:43:28,039 --> 00:43:33,159 what was introduced here for the twenty twenty six is 790 00:43:33,559 --> 00:43:37,199 to try to introduce in the second draft stage here 791 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:43,239 was trying to introduce permanent wired AVSS, so it has 792 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,519 the same provisions that one hundred and fify volts are 793 00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:47,679 less to ground and of course greater than one hundred 794 00:43:47,679 --> 00:43:49,599 and fifty volts to ground. But these rather than talk 795 00:43:49,599 --> 00:43:53,239 about receptacles, this one's now talking about outlets. And again 796 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,559 this is where I try to explain to people in 797 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,559 those those people that listen out there to these podcasts, 798 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,519 who are other educators who want to try to change 799 00:44:01,519 --> 00:44:04,079 the terminology of outlets. I think it is very clear 800 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,440 here in six twenty five fifty four that when they 801 00:44:07,519 --> 00:44:10,360 talk about receptacles, they're talking about devices. When they're talking 802 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,039 about outlets, they're talking about the actual EVSE even if 803 00:44:14,039 --> 00:44:16,199 you hardwire it, because that is a point in the 804 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,280 system where the brand circuit is being run to this 805 00:44:19,519 --> 00:44:23,280 piece of equipment which is an appliance, and that is 806 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,719 the outlet. Now that's where the power is being taken 807 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,239 from the building wiring to supply an appliance in this scenario, 808 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:35,519 the evsse okay, So that is a permanently wired hardwired appliance. 809 00:44:35,639 --> 00:44:37,679 Speaker 3: Now you have two provisions here. 810 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,840 Speaker 4: It was permitted permanent wiring one hundred fifty votes or 811 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:42,360 less to ground. 812 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,079 Speaker 3: That says all outlets. 813 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 4: Then that basically slang for saying hardwired EVSs rated one 814 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,199 hundred and fifty votes or less to ground. Installed for 815 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:56,280 the connection of EV charging shall have GFCI protection for 816 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:57,519 personal protection. 817 00:44:58,119 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 3: That is not something built into the unit. 818 00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:04,360 Speaker 4: That's not CCID, that is not the GFP or equipment 819 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:05,719 protection or something that may be. 820 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:06,440 Speaker 3: Built into it. 821 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:11,119 Speaker 4: This is requiring it for the permanent wiring. Okay, So 822 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,480 it all has to be protected in this case. So 823 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,400 there and also unless the manufacturers change something in how 824 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:25,280 they produce their protection, even in hardwired scenarios, they're going 825 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,239 to have to make sure that they have something that 826 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:31,440 is equivalent to a Class A for personnel protection built 827 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,719 into it. So it just means the manufacturers going to adapt. 828 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,440 Now greater than one hundred and fifty volts to ground again, 829 00:45:37,599 --> 00:45:43,320 same language, same concept, same SPGFCI with the not exceeding 830 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,639 twenty million amps has to be built into the system. 831 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,559 Speaker 3: Okay. Now we do have some exceptions. 832 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,679 Speaker 4: This again is not going to be required for the 833 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,239 where you have DC charging, it's not going to require 834 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,800 the SPGFCI. That's a very high level. They don't really 835 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,159 have any device that's going to do that, okay. And 836 00:45:58,199 --> 00:46:01,559 then of course outlets that are installed for electric vehicle 837 00:46:01,639 --> 00:46:04,559 bi directional charging shall not require s p s p 838 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:05,360 g f c I. 839 00:46:05,679 --> 00:46:08,400 Speaker 3: So you have some of these new equipment like the. 840 00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:11,679 Speaker 4: I can't think of the name of the company that 841 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,880 makes these things, but they have the ones that are 842 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,360 designed now to be hardwired that are bi directionals not 843 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,559 only charging the vehicle, but can actually be used as 844 00:46:19,599 --> 00:46:23,000 an energy storage system. Okay, those would not be required 845 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,320 to be s p g f c I, and typically 846 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,679 they're going to be obviously greater than one hundred and 847 00:46:28,679 --> 00:46:31,679 fifty bolst to ground in those type of systems. Okay, uh, 848 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:33,480 the way they the way they get utilized. 849 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:34,079 Speaker 2: Right. 850 00:46:34,119 --> 00:46:37,639 Speaker 4: So anyway, at the end of the day, we have 851 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:43,800 these provisions now for hardwired applications. Now fast forward to 852 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:48,320 the NTMAM. So the NTMAM was saying, wait a minute, 853 00:46:48,639 --> 00:46:54,599 manufacturers are very aware that there is this possibility that 854 00:46:54,599 --> 00:46:59,000 they're not going to work, and that they're that that 855 00:46:59,159 --> 00:47:02,000 the they're the inner connection or the compatibility between the 856 00:47:02,079 --> 00:47:06,719 EVSESE on these permanently wired units are going to potentially 857 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,119 cause a problem that they are not ready to overcome yet. 858 00:47:10,159 --> 00:47:13,320 This is CAM seventy dash one, seventy eight, by the way, 859 00:47:13,559 --> 00:47:15,000 and there was quite a few of these that were 860 00:47:15,079 --> 00:47:17,960 lumped together, so they're all pretty much targeting the same thing. 861 00:47:18,119 --> 00:47:22,920 So basically, the motion was to reject the second revision, 862 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,559 which was seventy eight seventy eight seventy five if you 863 00:47:25,599 --> 00:47:28,519 want to go look that up, and it was for 864 00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:30,159 six twenty five fifty four. 865 00:47:30,199 --> 00:47:31,119 Speaker 3: The CAM again is. 866 00:47:31,079 --> 00:47:34,079 Speaker 4: Seventy dash one seventy eight, but it wanted to strike 867 00:47:34,199 --> 00:47:38,599 the permanent wired provision. It wanted to lead the receptacle 868 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,880 application for all receptacles, but it wanted to strike all 869 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:44,159 of this other information. 870 00:47:44,639 --> 00:47:47,760 Speaker 3: Now the reason for this and a lot of the manufacturers, 871 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,559 TESLA different ones came up to the MIC and said, look, 872 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:57,280 we know there's issues and the GFCI standards, which is 873 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,079 UL nine forty three, is working on a high frequency, 874 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,280 a bunch of other things, you know. The manufacturers of 875 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,760 the GFCI says, we already have the special purpose. Basically, 876 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:08,199 that's just. 877 00:48:08,159 --> 00:48:10,719 Speaker 4: A higher million threshold by the way, they're just calling 878 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,679 it special purpose, but it's really kind of a like 879 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:19,119 a kind of like a limited threshold class B GFCI, 880 00:48:19,199 --> 00:48:21,719 if you will. So anyway, they already have that. So 881 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,280 they were passionate about, look, we already have this. 882 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:25,000 Speaker 3: This is fine. 883 00:48:25,159 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 4: The problem with it was that the manufacturers of the 884 00:48:28,639 --> 00:48:32,679 EVSs came to the MIC and said, look, we are 885 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:36,719 going to tell you that our units if you hardwire them, 886 00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,599 which is now a way you can do it without 887 00:48:38,679 --> 00:48:42,039 GFCI protection currently in the twenty twenty three, if you hardwire, 888 00:48:42,639 --> 00:48:45,719 you're going to have problems in our literature states not 889 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,280 to put it on GFCI if you hardwire it. So 890 00:48:49,039 --> 00:48:52,840 it's one of those situations where we're going to create 891 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:57,800 possible issues here because the manufacturers a major manufacturers say they're. 892 00:48:57,599 --> 00:48:58,320 Speaker 3: Not ready yet. 893 00:48:58,559 --> 00:49:01,599 Speaker 4: I mean they won't work, but because of some different 894 00:49:01,639 --> 00:49:04,360 it's not so much of an incompatibility thing. It is 895 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,960 how the evs's function and how they work and how 896 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,480 they work in the system that's causing the problem. They're saying, 897 00:49:11,519 --> 00:49:15,599 it's not so much stop calling it an incompatibility thing 898 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,159 or or something like it. It's part of the way 899 00:49:18,199 --> 00:49:19,239 that these evscs work. 900 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:19,480 Speaker 1: Well. 901 00:49:19,519 --> 00:49:23,360 Speaker 4: The Code Panel sent the message to them and said, well, no, 902 00:49:24,639 --> 00:49:25,320 you're going. 903 00:49:25,199 --> 00:49:26,800 Speaker 3: To fix it. 904 00:49:27,559 --> 00:49:31,679 Speaker 4: And any permanently wired evs C in the future is 905 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,719 going to have to have gfc I protection or spgfc 906 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,440 I protection, depending on the volts one hundred and fifty 907 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,639 voltes or less to ground or where you exceed one 908 00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,440 hundred and fifty volts or less to ground, whether it's 909 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:49,320 you know, permanently wired, you're going to have GFCI or SPGFCI, 910 00:49:50,039 --> 00:49:55,400 and for the receptacles you're going to have GFCI or SPGFCI. 911 00:49:55,599 --> 00:49:59,679 That's it. And so that was what was accepted. So 912 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,239 that's what they got. So it means that the manufacturers 913 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,519 of these evs e's are going to have to scramble 914 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,599 because once this twenty twenty six, they didn't put a 915 00:50:10,599 --> 00:50:11,360 sunset date. 916 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:12,760 Speaker 3: They didn't say as. 917 00:50:12,519 --> 00:50:15,719 Speaker 4: Of September first, twenty twenty nine, they didn't do any 918 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,480 of that. So that means that in the future it 919 00:50:19,599 --> 00:50:21,639 resolves that question of whether or not you have to 920 00:50:21,679 --> 00:50:28,119 have GFCI on A on the EVSs. The answer is yes, 921 00:50:28,199 --> 00:50:30,199 and yes, you're gonna have to have it, whether it's 922 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:35,880 a normal Class A or an SP GFCI depending. Okay, 923 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,199 you're gonna have it, whether it's receptacles or hardwired. That's 924 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,239 where you're going. Okay, So those that want to look 925 00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,559 that up, that is CAM seventy DASH one seventy eight 926 00:50:43,599 --> 00:50:45,360 when it comes up, But that does encompass quite a 927 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,519 few other ones as well, so keep you in mind. 928 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:49,320 Speaker 3: Okay. 929 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,039 Speaker 4: So the next one that was important, I guess for 930 00:50:52,079 --> 00:50:56,840 everybody out there is the ever controversial the GFCI requirement 931 00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,360 on outdoor outlets. And remember, for those out there don't 932 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:01,960 know what an outlet is, it's a point in the 933 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,679 system where you take power from the building. It is 934 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,159 not a receptacle. That is a device that mounts in 935 00:51:07,159 --> 00:51:10,480 an outlet box. But that does not mean that a 936 00:51:11,639 --> 00:51:14,519 piece of equipment and appliance mounted on like an EVSE 937 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:19,559 or even a disconnect, which people could argue that's different. 938 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:22,880 It's still a point where you're taking it from the 939 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,519 building system. And then you're supplying some piece of appliance 940 00:51:25,559 --> 00:51:29,559 or utilization equipment that is considered an outlet by definition. Okay, 941 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,639 so a good example of this was in two ten 942 00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:37,519 dot eight F outdoor outlets. Again, don't confuse that with 943 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:42,880 receptacles alone. There's already requirements for receptacles in two ten 944 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,800 dot eight A outdoors as well as in B for 945 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,760 other than dwellings. Outdoors for receptacles already have that requirement. 946 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,400 This was where the people were. The one that's the 947 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,800 biggest about this is the HVAC equipment. So you come 948 00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,280 out of the building and you hit a disconnect and 949 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,599 then it whips down to your HVAC equipment. 950 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,119 Speaker 3: We had a. 951 00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,559 Speaker 4: Relaxation, an exception to two ten dot E F that 952 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,880 came about in order to say that look, GFC our 953 00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,920 protection shall not be required for listed HVAC equipment. This 954 00:52:16,039 --> 00:52:22,119 exception shall expire September first, twenty twenty six. Well, the 955 00:52:22,159 --> 00:52:26,480 manufacturers of these HVAC systems, which generally have some kind 956 00:52:26,519 --> 00:52:31,320 of effect where they generate a very high frequency and 957 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,800 they're uniquely designed in order to handle what some of 958 00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,440 these HVAC units are generating. And then they were talking 959 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:43,119 about the hazards of an HVAC system shutting down and 960 00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,199 all this kind of stuff. I all thought it was 961 00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:49,159 kind of bogus because nobody's reported any type of issues 962 00:52:49,559 --> 00:52:52,119 from that scenario that I'm aware of. Again, they try 963 00:52:52,159 --> 00:52:53,840 to do some studies, but at the end of the day, 964 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:58,159 the question really was they wanted to extend this out 965 00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:01,639 to the September first, twenty twenty nine and let you 966 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,639 not have to put GFCI protection on these HVAC units 967 00:53:04,639 --> 00:53:06,880 outside under this exception number two. 968 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,280 Speaker 3: That was the crux of the of the change, right. 969 00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:14,239 Speaker 4: And of course introducing other, you know, another exception in there, 970 00:53:14,679 --> 00:53:19,440 trying to introduce that when it comes to listed Class 971 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:23,360 c SP GFCI protection, shat I be permitted for HVAC 972 00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:26,679 the special class. Yeah, yeah, so there was, and there 973 00:53:26,679 --> 00:53:30,360 was an informational note that talks about HF HF plus 974 00:53:30,679 --> 00:53:31,599 do not trip it. 975 00:53:31,639 --> 00:53:34,360 Speaker 3: So it's based on frequency. So that's what they wanted, right. 976 00:53:35,639 --> 00:53:38,119 Speaker 4: Well, I tell you, the folks at the NIITMAM were 977 00:53:38,159 --> 00:53:41,599 not buying any of it. The big argument was that 978 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,079 for three cycles now they've kicked this can down the road, 979 00:53:45,159 --> 00:53:47,239 saying give us three more years, give us three more years, 980 00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:48,920 give us three more, you know, give us another cycle. 981 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:50,559 Speaker 3: We'll solve this thing. We'll solve this thing. 982 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,000 Speaker 4: Understanding that UL nine forty three is still in the 983 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,719 works and they believe they have some resolutions to this, 984 00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,320 but nobody knows when that updates come out. Nobody knows 985 00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:06,280 if and when. So they really the members that were 986 00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:08,320 voting drew the line in the sand and says, you 987 00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,480 know what, we're not going to kick that can anymore. 988 00:54:10,559 --> 00:54:15,800 You better solve this thing by September one, twenty twenty six. 989 00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,800 So again they're going to have to solve it by 990 00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,440 September first, twenty twenty six. They did not get an 991 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:29,199 extension for that exception to go through a one more cycle. 992 00:54:29,679 --> 00:54:30,800 Speaker 3: It has to take place. 993 00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:31,039 Speaker 2: Now. 994 00:54:31,199 --> 00:54:33,480 Speaker 3: They may appeal this. They still got time to appeal. 995 00:54:33,599 --> 00:54:35,320 Speaker 4: I guess they could appeal it, because look, if they're 996 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:36,639 saying they can't do it, they can't do it. 997 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,159 Speaker 3: We have a problem. 998 00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:44,239 Speaker 4: So and then we're back to where we started, where 999 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,159 the gscis keep tripping, and then people have to local 1000 00:54:47,199 --> 00:54:49,400 states will have to write amendments on their own to 1001 00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,440 try to give them time, and we nearly don't want 1002 00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,960 to go that direction. But anyway, the voting members said no, 1003 00:54:55,119 --> 00:54:58,480 I'm sorry. September one, twenty twenty six, get you acted together. 1004 00:54:59,199 --> 00:55:01,800 We're tired of in the can down the road. So 1005 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:02,920 that's what you got. 1006 00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:03,079 Speaker 2: Oh. 1007 00:55:03,119 --> 00:55:05,400 Speaker 4: By the way, for those that are following along in 1008 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:09,840 that one, that is that was let's see here which 1009 00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:14,800 CAM was that, by the way, that was seventy dash 1010 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:20,280 one sixty. Okay, so seventy dash one sixty was the 1011 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:21,840 one dealing with that application. 1012 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:23,199 Speaker 3: So if you want to go look it up. 1013 00:55:23,119 --> 00:55:25,480 Speaker 4: And and by the way, it is in the NEC 1014 00:55:25,639 --> 00:55:30,199 two ten dot eight f the the committee comment that 1015 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,079 this amendment is to this CAM is to is seventy 1016 00:55:33,159 --> 00:55:35,760 five eighty four and that that's a committee comment, by 1017 00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,079 the way, So if you're in link or or not 1018 00:55:39,199 --> 00:55:42,159 Link Terror View and you're looking up these different things, 1019 00:55:42,639 --> 00:55:44,920 that's the one that it's addressing. That's what the CAM 1020 00:55:45,039 --> 00:55:50,840 was trying to address. And it was all about the expansion. 1021 00:55:51,559 --> 00:55:55,920 Right now, we're still going to have the exception number three, 1022 00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,280 we still have the they're going to have the allowance 1023 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:03,480 I believe for the Class C spgfc I protection for 1024 00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:05,199 listed HVC equipment. 1025 00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:07,320 Speaker 3: I believe that is in there. 1026 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:11,880 Speaker 4: If it's Class C SPGFCI provided that type of thing, 1027 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,400 and it's got to have a marking on it says 1028 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:20,639 warning Class C SPGFC I protection provided for ACE HVAC units. 1029 00:56:20,639 --> 00:56:22,400 Speaker 3: So again that's not going. 1030 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:27,880 Speaker 4: To be misconstrued, okay, as something else for something else, 1031 00:56:28,159 --> 00:56:31,320 So they're kind of making that very clear in that 1032 00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:32,719 application what's going on. 1033 00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:33,119 Speaker 3: Okay. 1034 00:56:33,199 --> 00:56:35,039 Speaker 4: Now again, if you want to check that out in 1035 00:56:35,079 --> 00:56:38,320 your codebook, it's two ten point eight. And when you 1036 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,800 get into the looking at the significant changes or you're 1037 00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,679 looking at what was proposed, that. 1038 00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:45,800 Speaker 3: Exception number three is gonna make it okay. 1039 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,199 Speaker 4: So they do have an avenue here, and the manufacturers 1040 00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:52,599 will have to use a listed class C and it's 1041 00:56:52,639 --> 00:56:54,519 got to be marked as such so that doesn't get 1042 00:56:54,599 --> 00:56:57,239 used in something else because obviously this is going to 1043 00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,800 have a higher million threshold. It's obviously going to be 1044 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:06,599 uh basically HF for HF plus in that type thing, 1045 00:57:06,639 --> 00:57:09,000 and it's not frequency specific that type of thing. 1046 00:57:09,159 --> 00:57:11,639 Speaker 3: Okay, all right, so look for that. 1047 00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:17,320 Speaker 4: But other than that, September one, twenty twenty six is 1048 00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:21,400 when that exception basically the exception on all listed HVAC 1049 00:57:21,559 --> 00:57:24,880 equipment in general, the exception to not put it on 1050 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:26,039 GFCI in. 1051 00:57:26,039 --> 00:57:27,159 Speaker 3: General is gone. 1052 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:32,159 Speaker 4: Okay, so manufacturers will have to sort that out, I guess. 1053 00:57:32,639 --> 00:57:35,679 So again, that was CAM seventy Dash one sixty in 1054 00:57:35,679 --> 00:57:38,199 case you want to go read a little more into 1055 00:57:38,239 --> 00:57:42,840 the details of it. Okay, let's see what else do 1056 00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,519 we have here that we want to look at. Okay, 1057 00:57:45,559 --> 00:57:50,880 Another very high profile CAM that was submitted was CAM 1058 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:55,559 seventy Dash one zero six, and this one was to 1059 00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:59,840 change the minimum size of conductors in the NEEC. As 1060 00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:02,920 you know, we have typically for decades now it's a 1061 00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:09,480 minimum of fourteen gauge copper in twelve gauge aluminum and 1062 00:58:09,519 --> 00:58:12,280 things like that. So there was an effort in the 1063 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:16,400 code and so this was a CAM was to accept 1064 00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:18,840 the public comment one three nine five. 1065 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:22,960 Speaker 3: Now one three nine five was a. 1066 00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:30,760 Speaker 4: Public comment to move it back to traditional minimum sizes 1067 00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:32,079 of conductors. 1068 00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:33,719 Speaker 3: That we've had for decades, right, y'all are familiar with. 1069 00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:38,199 Speaker 4: Minimum size was fourteen copper, twelve aluminum and twelve copper 1070 00:58:38,239 --> 00:58:42,480 claud aluminum. And so in the twenty twenty six second 1071 00:58:42,599 --> 00:58:47,320 draft they actually reduced it down to allow sixteen gauge 1072 00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:51,519 copper and to allow fourteen gauge copper claud aluminum in 1073 00:58:51,559 --> 00:58:54,719 the minimum size of twelve gage aluminum. So they reduced 1074 00:58:54,719 --> 00:58:57,480 the size of copper claud aluminum for the minimum sizing 1075 00:58:57,599 --> 00:59:01,800 used in a dwelling, and they red use the fourteen 1076 00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,840 down tow at sixteen, which would basically be utilized for 1077 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,920 those tenamp brand circuits. And everybody's been talking about the 1078 00:59:09,199 --> 00:59:12,159 edition of the ten, fifteen, and twenty when you see 1079 00:59:12,199 --> 00:59:14,119 a lot of code references where it's now talking about 1080 00:59:14,119 --> 00:59:17,519 overcurrent protection and we're talking about protecting of conductors that 1081 00:59:17,599 --> 00:59:21,599 are you know, ten that can handle ten amps, right, 1082 00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,280 and so that's what a sixteen gauge copper and that's 1083 00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,280 what the fourteen gauge copper cloud aluminium, those type of 1084 00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:31,119 things as far as minimum circuits, well, then went to 1085 00:59:31,199 --> 00:59:36,679 the committee and so the room had a very spirited 1086 00:59:36,679 --> 00:59:42,000 debate debate on this, and ultimately it was very close 1087 00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,599 a two thirty six to two thirty one vote, but 1088 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,880 they chose to revert it back to what it has 1089 00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:54,039 been forever, and that would be. 1090 00:59:55,599 --> 00:59:56,800 Speaker 3: It actually passed. 1091 00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:00,679 Speaker 4: The motion passed and it puts it back to require 1092 01:00:01,519 --> 01:00:05,559 that the minimum sizes are fourteen gauge copper and twelve 1093 01:00:05,559 --> 01:00:09,159 gauge copper claud aluminum and twelve gauge aluminum. So basically 1094 01:00:09,199 --> 01:00:13,000 it pretty much nullifies any anything that would allow you 1095 01:00:13,079 --> 01:00:18,199 to use smaller sizes on the normal. 1096 01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:19,679 Speaker 3: Branch circuits that are in a dwelling. 1097 01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:24,000 Speaker 4: So we're pretty much back to a fourteen gauge fifteen 1098 01:00:24,039 --> 01:00:28,079 amps application. And if you want to do it in aluminum, 1099 01:00:28,159 --> 01:00:29,559 you're going to use a twelve, and if you want 1100 01:00:29,599 --> 01:00:31,239 to do it in copper claud aluminum, it's going to. 1101 01:00:31,239 --> 01:00:31,760 Speaker 3: Be a twelve. 1102 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:37,280 Speaker 4: So that's what took place, and that was CAM seventy 1103 01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,800 dash one zero six and that was three ten dot 1104 01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,119 five A And that's really about the minimum size of 1105 01:00:44,119 --> 01:00:47,239 conductors within the scope of the NEEC, So you're not 1106 01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,719 going to have branch circuits that are going to be 1107 01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,880 smaller than a fourteen gauge copper. Now, again, obviously there's 1108 01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:57,800 exceptions to this. When we're talking about the fixture wire 1109 01:00:58,199 --> 01:01:01,440 going down to illumina air. That's different we're talking about 1110 01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:04,719 when it comes to the building wiring. So you're gonna 1111 01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,880 have fourteen coppers a minimum for copper, twelve is a 1112 01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:12,119 minimum for aluminum, and twelve is a minimum for copper 1113 01:01:12,159 --> 01:01:14,280 claud aluminum, and that's how the vote went. It was 1114 01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,920 very close, but that's what it went in the for 1115 01:01:18,039 --> 01:01:20,679 the twenty twenty six. That's what you've got there. Okay, 1116 01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,159 all right, let's see what else. Oh, there also was 1117 01:01:24,239 --> 01:01:29,119 one I think it was submitted as well. This one 1118 01:01:29,159 --> 01:01:35,199 was for table three ten sixteen. This was CAM seventy 1119 01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:38,119 dash one zero five and this again was going to 1120 01:01:38,239 --> 01:01:43,559 challenge the the opacity tables and remove the sixteen and 1121 01:01:43,679 --> 01:01:47,760 the fourteen gauge copper claud aluminum in the sixteen copper 1122 01:01:48,159 --> 01:01:52,440 to remove those. And so I think what happened is 1123 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:57,800 three ten three ten dot five A came up first, 1124 01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:01,320 and since you know, excuse me, yeah, the three ten 1125 01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:03,840 dot five A, which is CAM seventy dash one zero 1126 01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:07,159 six came up first. And since it requires that the 1127 01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,119 fourteen is the smallest for copper and twelve is the 1128 01:02:10,119 --> 01:02:13,199 smallest for copper clad aluminum and aluminum, that it made 1129 01:02:13,239 --> 01:02:17,440 the vote on the seventy one zero five irrelevant. Okay, 1130 01:02:17,639 --> 01:02:20,760 So there was no need to change the opacity table 1131 01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:22,880 because it's it's pointless. 1132 01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,079 Speaker 3: You could still it still might. 1133 01:02:25,719 --> 01:02:28,280 Speaker 4: It's still going to tell you that that a sixteen 1134 01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:30,760 copper is good for ten amps possibly it's might still 1135 01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:34,480 you tell you that a copper clad aluminum fourteen is 1136 01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:37,039 good for ten amps, but for use in building wiring, 1137 01:02:37,559 --> 01:02:41,800 it's irrelevant because we know what the sizes are now. 1138 01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,599 It can't be for copper, it can't be smaller than 1139 01:02:44,599 --> 01:02:46,960 a fourteen, and when it comes to copper clad illumino 1140 01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:48,719 or aluminum, it can't be smaller than a twelve. 1141 01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:50,239 Speaker 3: So it really makes it a moot point. 1142 01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:52,760 Speaker 4: And be honest with you, all those other areas that 1143 01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,679 talk about ten amps circuits really makes it a moot 1144 01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:59,079 point there. Anyway, moving forward with that. So that's the 1145 01:02:59,119 --> 01:03:01,679 significance of that one. 1146 01:03:02,079 --> 01:03:05,559 Speaker 3: And lastly we'll talk about the one that you heard 1147 01:03:05,559 --> 01:03:09,039 me talk about. This was CAM seventy dash ninety three. 1148 01:03:09,159 --> 01:03:11,119 Speaker 4: When it comes to that four to twenty two five 1149 01:03:11,159 --> 01:03:15,599 B list of where you're going to have the protection, 1150 01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:21,039 the GFCI protection on things like ranges, walmount ovens, countermounted 1151 01:03:21,039 --> 01:03:24,920 cooking units, clothes dryers, and microwaves. Okay, so kind of 1152 01:03:25,119 --> 01:03:31,360 convoluted in what happened here, it actually got kicked back 1153 01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,079 to Code Panel seventeen. 1154 01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:36,159 Speaker 3: We have to do a vote. I don't know the 1155 01:03:36,239 --> 01:03:37,079 reasoning for this. 1156 01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:39,360 Speaker 4: I actually missed this one because I had I had 1157 01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:41,079 a call I had to be on for one of 1158 01:03:41,119 --> 01:03:45,199 our customers. But my understanding is this has been kicked 1159 01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,559 back to Code Panel seventeen to review. But I also 1160 01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:53,199 heard that they also kicked it back to Code Panel 1161 01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:59,599 two and possibly them retain jurisdiction over it. And if 1162 01:03:59,599 --> 01:04:01,960 it does, is one of the things that's always a 1163 01:04:02,039 --> 01:04:07,119 problem is if two ten dot eight D says that 1164 01:04:07,159 --> 01:04:11,280 you have to supply these these branch circuits with GFCI protection, 1165 01:04:12,039 --> 01:04:16,119 then it really doesn't matter what we say in four twenty. 1166 01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:17,000 Speaker 3: Two dot five does it? 1167 01:04:17,119 --> 01:04:19,639 Speaker 4: Because if it's in one place and it's not in 1168 01:04:19,639 --> 01:04:21,360 the other, then it's always going to be an issue 1169 01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,480 where the AHJ is going to say, well, it's right 1170 01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:25,920 here in two ten dot eight. So the argument in 1171 01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:30,079 who has the jurisdiction over this? So I'm believing here's 1172 01:04:30,079 --> 01:04:32,840 what I'm believe. Here's what I'm thinking is the rationale 1173 01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:35,360 behind this one is I think that they want Code 1174 01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,119 Panel seventeen to agree with Code Panel two. They want 1175 01:04:38,119 --> 01:04:40,199 Code Penal two to be able to say, yes, we 1176 01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:45,679 want these appliances to be GFCI protected. And I don't 1177 01:04:45,719 --> 01:04:49,639 believe I still believe there's compatibility issues. I still believe 1178 01:04:49,719 --> 01:04:53,440 that UL nine forty three is a ways away from 1179 01:04:53,639 --> 01:04:59,000 giving us guaranteed non compatibility issues. Uh, and so I 1180 01:04:59,079 --> 01:05:02,239 can't really forg CAST right now where that's going to go. 1181 01:05:02,519 --> 01:05:05,519 So right now, you just have to assume that you're 1182 01:05:05,559 --> 01:05:08,119 going to have to protect those locations. Obviously you're in 1183 01:05:08,119 --> 01:05:10,760 the twenty twenty three you're going to have to provide 1184 01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:12,880 GFCI protection to those things. 1185 01:05:13,119 --> 01:05:13,840 Speaker 3: You're going to have to. 1186 01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:17,400 Speaker 4: Provide them to the ranges walmounted ovens, countermounting cooking units, 1187 01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:20,440 closed dryers, microwave ovens. You're just going to have to 1188 01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,639 do it until we get this all sorted out. And 1189 01:05:24,079 --> 01:05:27,000 I expect Code Panel seventeen to have to vote here 1190 01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:27,159 in the. 1191 01:05:27,199 --> 01:05:28,280 Speaker 3: Next couple of weeks on this. 1192 01:05:29,119 --> 01:05:33,199 Speaker 4: I would think based on the chair who submitted a 1193 01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:38,440 letter that they believe that there is significant compatibility issues 1194 01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,639 and we cannot get the answers from any individuals that 1195 01:05:41,679 --> 01:05:44,679 are on UL nine forty three. When it comes to 1196 01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:46,599 GFCI and what it's going to be, we don't know 1197 01:05:46,599 --> 01:05:50,719 when it's going to be published. So Code Panel seventeens 1198 01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:54,880 has a problem with putting things into the code where 1199 01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:59,719 we know that there's issues. Whereas Code Panel two, which 1200 01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:03,079 iviusly a lot of the manufacturers of these devices sit on, 1201 01:06:03,719 --> 01:06:07,000 they're like, no problem, it needs to be there. I 1202 01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,719 don't know if they're ignoring the compatibility issues they just 1203 01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,840 don't want to acknowledge them. I don't know, but we 1204 01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,400 know there's issues because, look, we have very knowledgeable people 1205 01:06:16,599 --> 01:06:19,679 that sit on these panels, and on seventeen we have 1206 01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,480 some individuals that are on those task groups that are 1207 01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:24,719 working on UL nine forty three and they say they're 1208 01:06:24,719 --> 01:06:28,519 not ready yet. They're just they're not there yet. There's 1209 01:06:28,519 --> 01:06:32,480 still the issues of this potential compatibility issue. But the 1210 01:06:32,519 --> 01:06:35,639 people on Code Panel two say, no, no, we're manufacturers. 1211 01:06:35,639 --> 01:06:38,159 We can handle this. We know we got the breakers 1212 01:06:38,199 --> 01:06:39,960 that'll do this or the devices that'll do this. 1213 01:06:40,599 --> 01:06:41,159 Speaker 3: But for some. 1214 01:06:41,199 --> 01:06:43,360 Speaker 4: Reason, that information is not making it to us at 1215 01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,760 seventeen with any validation. 1216 01:06:46,639 --> 01:06:48,880 Speaker 3: So again where we at on this one. 1217 01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:51,599 Speaker 4: We still are going to get a vote Code Panel 1218 01:06:51,639 --> 01:06:55,000 seventeen members voting members are going to vote and see 1219 01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:57,559 how that shakes out. And then it's hard to say 1220 01:06:57,679 --> 01:06:59,800 what's going to happen in Code Panel two, whether they're 1221 01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:03,880 going to retain that or not. H but we'll keep 1222 01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,840 you posted, all right, folks. On Coffee Hour, we'll be 1223 01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:09,840 talking about answering questions. If this generated any questions for 1224 01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:12,400 you that you want to ask me, please do me 1225 01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:15,440 a favorite. Join us every morning at eight am Monday 1226 01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:19,000 through Friday, Eastern time for Coffee Hour. We we'll chat 1227 01:07:19,039 --> 01:07:22,360 about this this week. We'll talk about changes. I can't 1228 01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:24,280 talk about some of the other ones here. You might 1229 01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:27,000 ask for other ones. If I wasn't in the room. Again, 1230 01:07:27,119 --> 01:07:29,400 Kevin Porter was with me. He's voting as well. I 1231 01:07:29,559 --> 01:07:33,079 was in and out because I had customer issues that 1232 01:07:33,159 --> 01:07:35,679 I was dealing with, and so it's just, you know, 1233 01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:38,559 kind of having to do business. So I'm voting as 1234 01:07:38,599 --> 01:07:41,480 I can, trying to make sure I voted on ones 1235 01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:44,039 that were very significant, and in and out and in 1236 01:07:44,079 --> 01:07:46,800 and out and trying to juggle many hats. 1237 01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:49,079 Speaker 3: But we did the best we could on this. 1238 01:07:49,119 --> 01:07:51,400 Speaker 4: So hopefully I covered the majority of the of the 1239 01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:57,159 key topic ones today and you know, we'll see what'll happen. 1240 01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:00,559 All right, all right, folks, till next time, stay it's safe, 1241 01:08:00,599 --> 01:08:01,199 God bless them. 1242 01:08:01,199 --> 01:08:03,920 Speaker 3: We'll catch you on another episode of Mastering the nec Piece. 1243 01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:08,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning into another electrifying episode of the Master 1244 01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:12,320 of the ANEC podcast. We hope you're feeling more powered 1245 01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:14,679 up and ready to tackle the electrical world with the 1246 01:08:14,719 --> 01:08:18,920 knowledge and confidence you need to succeed. Remember, in the 1247 01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:22,520 electrical trade, knowledge is power, and we're here to make 1248 01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:25,840 sure you stay plugged into the latest insights, tips and 1249 01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:31,279 code updates. If you enjoy today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, 1250 01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:34,359 leave us a review, and share the podcast with your. 1251 01:08:34,239 --> 01:08:36,319 Speaker 2: Fellow electricians and industry pros. 1252 01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:41,560 Speaker 1: Until next time, keep your tools sharp, your circuits clear, 1253 01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:44,359 and you're my focused because here at the Master of 1254 01:08:44,399 --> 01:08:49,920 the NEEC podcast, we're all about sparking your success. Stay safe, 1255 01:08:50,159 --> 01:08:54,439 stay smart, and keep mastering the trade. From all of 1256 01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:57,239 us here at Electrical Code Academy, thank you for all 1257 01:08:57,319 --> 01:08:59,239 your support, and we will see you on the next 1258 01:08:59,239 --> 01:09:02,199 amazing mass through then EC podcast episode. 1259 01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:08,720 Speaker 3: Mm hmm