WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.279 --> 00:00:11.240 Welcome back everyone. 2 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:15.960 Today we're discussing Ireland, specifically why is Ireland So left Wing? 3 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:20.679 I'm Ryan, I'm joined by a real life irishman, Keith Woods. 4 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:24.120 You wrote an essay a couple of months ago called 5 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:28.199 why is Ireland So left Wing? It was published in 6 00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:34.479 Chronicles magazine. It's also appearing in your new book Ethno Politics. So, 7 00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:37.320 first of all, what inspired you to write this essay? 8 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:40.520 Well, it's clearly a topic that interests a lot of people. 9 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:44.280 I think if you follow the discourse among the distant right, 10 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:46.759 it's often a topic of discussion. People will say, how 11 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:51.439 could Ireland fight so long for its independence? And I 12 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:55.640 have this robust nationalist movement to the point of militancy 13 00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:00.280 and then embraced liberalism. And it's a demographic ration sure, 14 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:04.959 so much in the twenty first century. And there's also 15 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:07.200 I think a lot of bad explanations that it's all 16 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:11.359 because her Worldism and you know, things that happened with 17 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:14.280 hin Fein or something in the IRA you know, it's 18 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:17.560 funny sometimes like Irish nationalist from America on this. If 19 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:20.879 you look at the discourse on x it seems like 20 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:23.799 a lot of like American conservative posters seem to think 21 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:26.640 that the IRA like took control of Ireland in the 22 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.359 nineties and have been in government since. This is weird 23 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:32.159 thing of like, they're like, why why would the IRA 24 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:35.159 do this? Why would Hin Finn do this? And Christian 25 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:38.719 Finn has never been in government in the South. But 26 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:44.319 also there is something anomalous about Ireland's leftism. You know, 27 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:48.319 Ireland has the highest proportion of members of European Parliament 28 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:52.159 in the leftist bloc in the European Parliament. It had 29 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:57.519 a very left wing labor president until recently, Michael D. Higgins, 30 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:01.159 who often made news for quite left to statements he 31 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:06.280 would make about you know, capitalism, climate change, foreign conflicts 32 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:10.439 and so on. And his successor is also a former 33 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:18.879 labor politician, equally left wing. There's no populous nationalist party 34 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:23.199 with a seed in our national Parliament. To doll And, 35 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:27.639 Ireland is quite unique in Europe in the lack of 36 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.919 emergence of a strong populist right. You know, you look 37 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:33.879 at Germany and it has a FD which is in 38 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:36.840 recent opinion polls the most popular party in Germany. Even 39 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:41.199 in Britain now you see Reform which obviously we don't 40 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:44.800 consider them nationalists but they have a populous vote and 41 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:48.080 now the emergence of restore Jega and Portugal so on. 42 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:50.919 You can always find these examples. In Ireland, there hasn't 43 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:54.240 been a breakthrough. You know, the National Party exists, other 44 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:58.280 groups exist, but you know, the vote share hasn't been 45 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:02.560 there on a national level. Ireland's the most pro Palestine 46 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:05.680 country in Europe. I think that's indisputable. Now, I don't 47 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:08.479 think that's necessarily a bad thing, right to sympathize with 48 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:12.479 the Palestinian cause as well, but clearly it's a reflection 49 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:16.560 that politics are a bit different in Ireland. The interesting 50 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.919 fact is that technically we've never had a leftist government, 51 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:24.520 you know, ideologically leftist party explicitly has never been in government, 52 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:28.159 and so it's much more down to the shift of 53 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:33.280 the ideological consensus so far leftward with the existing formerly 54 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:37.360 centrist parties and power. So I think it's actually an 55 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:42.120 interesting question to examine. When you don't have a strong 56 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:45.759 political left, you know, to sweep in in a huge 57 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:48.680 election and implement all these changes, how can things move 58 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:52.680 so leftward? And I think it reflects a lot about 59 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:56.439 how modern liberal managerialism functions. 60 00:03:56.759 --> 00:04:03.919 Okay, let's examine that fasis. Obviously, Ireland has been invaded 61 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:08.560 for many centuries, first the Vikings, then various entities from 62 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:12.560 England and Scotland, and it does seem to have this 63 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:16.839 kind of you know, siege mentality, you know, Ireland against 64 00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:22.040 the invaders. How much does that play into the national psyche, 65 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:28.920 you know, culturally, politically, and how far does it go 66 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:32.800 to explain you know, a third world it's attitude or 67 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:35.959 you know, something like standing up for Palestine or other 68 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:37.319 victims of colonialism. 69 00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:38.800 Yeah, that's definitely a factor. 70 00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:43.120 I mean, even the during a parathoid in South Africa, 71 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:48.600 there was a big kind of workers strike organized by 72 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:51.480 these workers in a department store in Ireland that became 73 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:56.720 quite famous. And yeah, those kinds of internationalist issues have 74 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:00.920 always struck more of record in Ireland. And yeah, I 75 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:03.879 mean to a large degree in the modern world, that 76 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:06.759 does feed into leftist narratives about you know, oppress or 77 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:11.480 oppressed and feeling this kind of you know brotherhood fraternity 78 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:16.240 with other oppressed nations. It does lend itself to your 79 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:21.759 kind of slave moralism narrative. But I don't think that's 80 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:24.600 as decisive as as some people make out. I mean 81 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:28.279 people focus specifically on shin Fain and say, you know, 82 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:30.639 this is a result of Irish nationalism, this is a 83 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:34.639 result of Irish republicanism. But it's important to remember one, 84 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:37.000 as I said, that Hinfain has never been in power 85 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:41.160 in the South, but also that the establishment parties have 86 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:45.120 established a kind of cordon sanitaire around Hinfain, and for 87 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:48.600 a long time there's been very negative attitudes about hin Fain, 88 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:52.240 about the IRA, about the arms struggle in the North 89 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:55.759 of Ireland. You know, when Hinfein ran candidates in the 90 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:58.160 South in the eighties and nineties, you know, they were 91 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:02.680 getting like under two percent of the vote, and because 92 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:05.839 of the troubles in the North, because of the conflict there, 93 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:10.920 it did lead to a re examining of Ireland's militant 94 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:14.839 nationalist history. Even as far back as the nineteen sixties, 95 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:18.600 you know, you had influential history professors and places like 96 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:21.800 Trinity College Dublin that began to take a more critical 97 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:28.279 stance on Ireland's history revolutionary politics. Even at the fiftieth 98 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:32.079 anniversary of the East Horizon in nineteen sixty six, there 99 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:37.560 was you know, there was kind of an established taboo 100 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:41.160 against commemorating it too much because of the violence aspect, 101 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:43.839 and for a long time, someone like Poorik Pierce, who 102 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:47.319 was kind of the father of that particular revolution, was 103 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:49.439 kind of brushed aside because it was seen that this 104 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:53.959 is someone that aren't militants in the North. Invoke this 105 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:56.480 is kind of a stain on Ireland's reputation, the fact 106 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:00.360 that we're in this peaceful internationalist order now and there's 107 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:03.360 this black spot of violence in the North and that 108 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:07.439 actually really affected people's psyche in the south. There's a 109 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:12.079 great writer, Desmond Fennel, who wrote about these changes when 110 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:15.439 they were happening in the sixties and beyond, and he 111 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:18.920 talked about this, how much the shame of the conflict 112 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:21.000 happening in the North and that this was being done 113 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:24.199 in the name of Irish nationalism, how much this led 114 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:28.000 the elite in Ireland to do a kind of revisionist 115 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:30.920 history to you know, try and move away from the 116 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:34.000 politics of the gun. I mean, you have a for 117 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:38.959 t Shook of Ireland. A former leader of Finegael wrote 118 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:41.439 an opinion piece and I think it was The Irish 119 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:43.720 Independent a few years ago, sin the rising, the War 120 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:46.360 of Independence were a mistake. This should have been done peacefully, 121 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:50.360 so these revisionist attitudes became more popular among the elite. 122 00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:54.879 And you know, it's in so far as as that 123 00:07:55.000 --> 00:08:00.279 kind of bourgeois mentality has become dominant in Ireland, that 124 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:02.800 is what brought about the changes with the embrace of 125 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:09.160 the European Union, cosmopolitanism, more open immigration system, shinfen. 126 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:11.680 As they've entered. 127 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:15.360 Establishment politics and moved closer to government, they have adopted 128 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:20.079 more and more this kind of social democratic, left wing politics. 129 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:24.720 But you know, it was never the militant nationalism that 130 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:28.240 was pushing people towards what we have now. It was 131 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:36.360 much more a European wide, Western wide ideology of liberal pluralism, cosmopolitanism, 132 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:43.519 this kind of neoliberal economic model. It was the very cohesive, 133 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:47.840 homogeneous elite of Ireland that were embracing these European liberal 134 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:51.559 ideas and somewhat imposing it on the rest of the country. 135 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:54.679 And so far as people did have an attachment to 136 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.919 that more militant, backward looking republicanism, those are people that 137 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:01.720 tended to be more socially conservative. I would say that, 138 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:05.919 you know, would tend to have more nationalist instincts as 139 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:08.759 a concerns immigration, and even see that today if you 140 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:12.279 look at the Poland, of which voters are a post immigration, 141 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:15.159 you still find shin Fan voters are the ones most 142 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:18.120 to post immigration, even though it's it's obviously a leftist 143 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:22.639 party that that supports these mass migration policies. So you know, 144 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:25.799 that story of Third world isn't kind of infect in 145 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.399 the country. It's like, you know, Ireland still allows the 146 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:33.600 US to run rendition flights through through Shannon Airport, and 147 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:35.399 even even during the Iraq War, you know, this was 148 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:38.960 something that was disgusted. There was potentially people being transported 149 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:43.799 to Guantanamo Bay or torture, and we're supposedly a neutral country. 150 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:48.000 They used our airports to stop and refuel and it 151 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:51.000 aided in their invasion of Iraq. So you know, our 152 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:54.519 government certainly never had these kind of third worldist attitudes. 153 00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:57.960 But yeah, I mean to a degree, yes, the you know, 154 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:02.279 the kind of underdog politic and you know, this kind 155 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:05.559 of anti colonialism that does breed into toward worldism. It 156 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:07.840 is somewhat part of the culture. 157 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:08.759 Now. 158 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:13.519 My first experience with Ireland was through a much loved 159 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:18.360 comedy called Father Ted, which is you know, basically a 160 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:23.559 parody of Catholic priests in Ireland. You know, on a 161 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:27.600 little little Ireland and that was at a time that 162 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:31.240 I was being raised as a Catholic child. So how 163 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:36.320 much does this post Catholic attitude is kind of sneering 164 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:41.159 at the priests and the old fashioned Irish grandmothers play 165 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:46.960 into again the national psyche, the culture kind of retaining 166 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:55.399 these egalitarian values, you know, welcome in the immigrant, the 167 00:10:56.120 --> 00:10:59.559 good Samaritan. How much does that play in these days? 168 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:03.159 And has there been a revision of these values into 169 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:08.159 something similar but more amenable to you know, this modern 170 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:08.799 liberal order. 171 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:13.320 Well, there's a meme on Gail Twitter, Irish Twitter of 172 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:17.000 this archetype in Ireland of the Derek, which is like 173 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:25.840 the you know, boomer centrist, fine gael voting liberal lives 174 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:29.480 in Dublin, Uns a couple of houses, and people will 175 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:32.840 attach quotes to this image. Very typical, like kind of 176 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:36.080 middle class looking Irish guy and it's all about how 177 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:39.679 he grew up in devil Era's slave Island, you know, 178 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:43.120 where the Catholic bishop's rule that this was like a 179 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:48.360 papist theocracy. You know, there were mass graves of babies 180 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:53.879 buried in women and children's homes. Child abuse was rampant, 181 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:57.080 it was like the Handmaid's Tale in terms of the 182 00:11:57.320 --> 00:12:01.559 enforcement of sexual morality. They was a backwater all this 183 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:05.600 kind of thing. So there has been this mythos constructed 184 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:11.480 of this deeply dark, stagnant leak period in Irish history 185 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:14.960 post independence, where you know, basically the Catholic Church and 186 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:18.480 conservative politicians ruled, a lot of people were emigrating, there 187 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:23.320 was very little economic growth, and yeah, the economic aspect 188 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:25.080 of that story, there's a lot of truth to it, 189 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:29.799 but yeah, the liberal elite has constructed this, you know, 190 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:34.799 this big danger of the backwards look in Ireland that 191 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.399 they're at war with and they can still kind of 192 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:40.080 paint themselves as the underdog that you know, we kind 193 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:43.080 of liberated ourselves from this in our lifetime and they're 194 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:45.559 still backward looking people that would want to take us 195 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:49.600 back to this. And you know, this kind of you 196 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:52.240 could say, like upper middle class centrists. They're super proud 197 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:55.600 of things like the referenda that Arish people have voted 198 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:58.720 majority on these liberal issues, and they're super proud about 199 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:02.919 European assets and the economic growth Ireland has had and 200 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:07.279 so on, and that is kind of typical of the elite, 201 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.960 the state class. As Desbon Fennel would have called it 202 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:14.000 that that really dominates Ireland. And this is an important 203 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:18.600 aspect is although Ireland is a mostly rural country, about 204 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:22.480 forty percent of the population are in the greater Dublin area. 205 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:25.960 And if you look at the concentration of media, banking, 206 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:29.720 the civil service, it's really heavily, heavily centralized in Dublin 207 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.759 and in other countries, I mean they're always you know, 208 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:36.639 you look at somewhere like France, they're deep regional differences. 209 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:41.480 They're like, you know, there are blocks of maybe Catholic influence, 210 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:47.679 farmer influence, these kinds of blocks that can create political coalitions, 211 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:50.200 a lot of those things. You know, in Ireland it's 212 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:54.480 like the farmer income is so tied to European Union 213 00:13:54.559 --> 00:14:00.200 cap policy. Again, all of the media, civil service, it's 214 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:02.679 it's really one area of kind of South Dublin, the 215 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:07.320 leafy suburbs D four is used in conjunction with this, 216 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.120 the state class a particular particularly wealthy area of Dublin. 217 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:14.519 And yeah, these are people that tell themselves a certain 218 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:17.639 story about the history of Ireland. Esmond Fennel had a 219 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.480 book titled Nice People and Rednecks, and it was to 220 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:23.399 represent the way that they see the world that they're 221 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:28.840 the nice people, the friendly, liberal, cosmopolitan, welcoming people that 222 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:31.440 live in the city that you know, they go to 223 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:33.879 the same schools, they drop their kids at the same schools, 224 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:37.159 they work in the same offices. Oftentimes they're they're kind 225 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:39.720 of lifers in the system. They transfer from the civil 226 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:44.039 service to banking, to advisory roles to whatever else. And 227 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:47.200 then they have this picture that you know, outside there 228 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:52.000 are these backward looking rural lites, rednecks. 229 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:53.360 You know, they take. 230 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:58.159 Their morality unquestioningly from the Catholic Church. They resisted all 231 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.440 of the things that brought us prosperity, the European Union, 232 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.840 the euro global trade and so on, and so they 233 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:08.879 always tell the story of them being at war with 234 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:12.480 this this larger, backward looking system, and they can there's 235 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:14.679 still very much, I think, see themselves as kind of 236 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:16.759 an underdog. You know that you have these forces of 237 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:21.679 trumpsm and Brexit and the Catholic Church, and these are 238 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.399 the this is the brave, forward looking generation that that 239 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:29.720 overcame all that mid Ireland, the pluralist, open, outward looking place. 240 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:35.840 Okay, so let's talk about that antagonism between you know, 241 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:40.840 this emerging technocracy in Dublin, which you know has forty 242 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:46.679 percent of the population versus rural island. So that's as 243 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:49.879 I understand, something that's come about mainly in the last 244 00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:54.440 thirty years. It was really the emergence of the Celtic 245 00:15:54.519 --> 00:16:00.639 Tiger economy preparation for joining the EU and the Euro. 246 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:05.919 Of course, the corporate tax rate was cut to twelve 247 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:11.039 point five percent, and Ireland has been you know, this 248 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:17.159 hub of especially tech companies, biotech. I think Apple do 249 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:21.639 a lot of business there, Google, these huge companies, And 250 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:26.240 I was looking at the statistics of government government revenue 251 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:30.559 before preparing for the show, and the government revenue in 252 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:35.120 nineteen ninety five was fourteen billion euro and this year 253 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.000 it will be I think one hundred and seven billion euro. 254 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:43.720 So clearly the state has just grown massively seven x 255 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:47.480 in thirty years. If you can explain your thesis of 256 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:52.120 how the Irish political systems kind of molded into this 257 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:56.840 Uni party and managed the growth of this economy which 258 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:02.799 is kind of offshore but highly integrate to EU economy, Yeah, well, 259 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:03.279 like I said, I. 260 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:08.119 Think the key is how homogeneous the state classes. And 261 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:11.759 I think there's something with Irish history and Irish politics 262 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:14.759 that there is a kind of I don't know if 263 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.440 i'd call it a conformity, but you know, there's almost 264 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:22.079 like the there's a certain clannishness to Irish people. I 265 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:26.319 think that that makes them less willing to challenge consensus 266 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.279 within small groups. And yeah, I mean I think for 267 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:34.279 a long time the Irish elite were already way ahead 268 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.640 of the population in terms of their liberalism and openness 269 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:42.279 and holding the values that are commonly held now. But 270 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:46.079 they had this population that was resistant, that was Catholic, 271 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.839 that was nationalists, commonly held beliefs. So it was really 272 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:52.039 a long process. But if you look back, you can 273 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:54.920 see that you go right back, and you know, you 274 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:59.000 have people like Connor Cruz O'Brien, who was very influential 275 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:02.599 Labor Party pole politician. He implemented the rules that you 276 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:06.799 couldn't have representatives of the IRA, their voice couldn't be 277 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:10.960 heard on television seat of actors like repeating praises from 278 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:14.400 Jerry Adams, and he intros really strict censorship laws. And 279 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:19.759 again he's someone that basically repudiated the nationalist tradition. But 280 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:21.480 you have a lot of these figures there were you know, 281 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:23.680 there was a lot of Anglo Irish figures that retained 282 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:28.680 influence after independence, but it's more generally a mindset of 283 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:32.079 of again an upper middle class, kind of mercantile elite 284 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:35.200 in the in the city, and the degree of media 285 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:39.519 control allowed them very much to bring the population with them. 286 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:43.119 You know, there's a state broadcaster or a certain perspective. 287 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:45.079 For a long time, that's that's what Irish people were 288 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:48.400 limited to. And so it was a process of liberalization. 289 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:51.720 Sometimes people will look at you know, oh, the corporations 290 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:54.000 came and they must have made Ireland liberal, and it's like, 291 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:56.839 you know, you could look at you know, Facebook donates 292 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:03.079 money to leftist NGOs, But none of this is very causative, right, 293 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.359 These corporations set money aside for some of these projects 294 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:09.599 and you know what's there they donate to. But it's 295 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:12.880 it's like by the time that was happening, the country 296 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:15.880 had already moved very leftward. It was already on the 297 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:21.079 course that was said, an embrace of global capital financialization. 298 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:24.880 You've the opening of the Irish Financial Services Center that's 299 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:28.599 meant to attract financial services similar to the City of London. 300 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:31.799 Like you said, there's the low corporation tax. There's also 301 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:35.920 a number of loopholes that essentially allowed corporations to dodge 302 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:40.599 tax almost completely. And the joining of the European Union 303 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:44.440 is usually beneficial economically. We get this huge export market. 304 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:48.519 Ireland's and English speaking country. It's highly educated because of 305 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:52.160 investments that were made in public education, and so it 306 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.319 becomes this very attractive place for companies to set up 307 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.480 pharmaceutical companies. But increasingly in recent years tech company. Right, 308 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:04.039 all of these companies like Facebook and PayPal have head 309 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:08.200 offices in Dublin, and so at the same time you 310 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:13.839 have a population becoming more acclimatized to this liberal vision 311 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:19.640 of the state class, you have huge revolutionary economic growth 312 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:23.720 coming through a vision that that really matches their perspective 313 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:28.319 on things, you know, European integration, global trade, you know, 314 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:32.920 this import export model with a lack of tariffs, highly educated, 315 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:36.640 bluid population that can serve a number of functions for 316 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:40.240 these corporations, and so this really fits with their new 317 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:44.039 global vision of things. And Ireland remains one of the 318 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:46.839 most pro EU countries in Europe. And I mean it's 319 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.039 to my mind, it's simply because of the enormous economic 320 00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:53.960 growth that did bring so it really bolstered their vision 321 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:55.759 of things, and it does obviously make it a lot 322 00:20:55.839 --> 00:21:00.480 more difficult for some kind of populous force to tap 323 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:02.920 into a lot of angster on that, just because Irish 324 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:07.039 people that live through that have observed a huge change 325 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:09.359 in the standard of their living in a short period 326 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:13.119 of time. Now there's a young population who don't experience 327 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.000 that and who through various means, are locked out of it. 328 00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:21.000 Most obviously the housing problem. But if you're a boomer 329 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.720 in Ireland, I mean, you know, there are boomers that 330 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:26.799 grew up in houses without running water and now they 331 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:29.920 own they owned two homes and a holiday home, and 332 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:33.359 they've watched the value of their house, you know, twenty 333 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:40.200 twenty x and full employment, economic growth every year exceeding expectations. 334 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:43.720 Like for a certain segments of the population, things have 335 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:47.839 never been better, and that's the group that really dominates 336 00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:48.920 Irish politics. 337 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:52.480 The people that feel left out of. 338 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.200 That broadly are kind of on the margins and not 339 00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:56.920 as influential politically. 340 00:21:57.079 --> 00:22:01.279 And that economic growth has been quite remarkable. Obviously, you know, 341 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:04.039 there are a lot of well paid jobs associated with 342 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:10.960 these new tech sectors, but importantly, the asset growth has 343 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:16.920 been ridiculous. I was looking at a real estate in 344 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:20.200 Dublin a couple of years ago and I saw this. 345 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:25.319 I think it was a six hundred foot Dockers cottage 346 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:30.400 in Dublin, just outside Dublin, and it was something like 347 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:36.640 over six hundred thousand euro, more expensive than most parts 348 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:42.200 of London. And that's something that's really been harming the 349 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:48.079 Irish youth. You know, many not able to afford to 350 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:52.160 buy a home. I think there was statistic that forty 351 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:55.480 of eighteen to thirty four year olds live in their 352 00:22:55.559 --> 00:23:01.480 childhood bedroom with their parents. Many have decided to move 353 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:03.640 abroad because they don't see a future in Ireland. 354 00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:04.279 Yeah. 355 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:07.839 The boomers have done very well out of this, and 356 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:13.400 you know economically, so you know, do they have a 357 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.640 stranglehold on you know, the democratic system and this Uni 358 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:18.720 party that's emerged. 359 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:19.200 Yeah. 360 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:23.720 I mean I've written before about the gerontocracy and the 361 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:27.920 boomer domination of the economy and if Ireland is like 362 00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:32.440 the liberal managerial state power excellence, it's also the Western 363 00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:38.359 gerontocratic state power excellence. There's a statistic I think seventy 364 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.839 percent of household wealth in Ireland is tied up in 365 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:45.359 the value of houses and this for a long time 366 00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:47.799 actually fueled the economy. I mean during the Celtic Tiger 367 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:50.160 when we had a normous economic growth, it was also 368 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:53.599 a massive property bubble. At one point, I think almost 369 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.680 a fifth of GDP was just coming from the property market, 370 00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:00.359 and that contributed to the massive collapse that came when 371 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:03.119 there was a global financial crisis. That's why Ireland was 372 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:07.400 especially hit hard. But yeah, boomers bought houses in the 373 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:10.400 nineteen ninety some of them, and in ten fifteen years 374 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:13.599 their houses were worth four or five x. So again, 375 00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:16.200 this is something we talk about. We've talked about a 376 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:19.480 bit on the show and other episodes, but this problem 377 00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:24.200 of land value and this just clearly unfair wealth transfer, 378 00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:29.920 where the collective productivity and work of the working population 379 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:34.000 creates an overall increase in value and that eventually gets 380 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:39.240 funneled into land value and into unproductive asset holders. And 381 00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:41.440 Ireland was the ultimate example of that because you had 382 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:43.880 a growth in the nineteen nineties that was driven by 383 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:47.799 really solid economic fundamentals. You know, we had a very 384 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:54.119 educated population, we invested in publicly funded secondary level third 385 00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:59.720 level education, we had this integrated economy. We were heavily 386 00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:05.559 ex sporting. We had our own native industry, but again 387 00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:10.039 it was heavily funneled into speculation and government. Successive governments 388 00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:14.359 played into that. They slashed taxes on property as far 389 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.920 back as the nineteen seventies. Rates on dwellings that used 390 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:22.079 to be used to fund local governance were abolished, and 391 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:26.640 so the entire taxation system was geared towards people hoarding assets, 392 00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:30.000 specifically housing as a means to get rich quick. And 393 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.200 this was very common during the Celtic Targraph for people 394 00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:37.480 to begin owning two tree homes. Policies like mortgage interest 395 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:41.839 relief encouraging people to take second, third houses. And now 396 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:44.839 you have this massively lopsided economy where you have an 397 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:52.279 older generation that benefited from low prices, full employment, new builds, 398 00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:57.240 public housing that was being made available, taxes geared towards 399 00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:01.359 encouraging speculation and property. When you have a generation out 400 00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:04.279 that can't enter the property market and are emigrating at 401 00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:06.880