WEBVTT 1 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:05.439 Hello everybody, and welcome. This is the Apostate Profit. How 2 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:10.319 is everyone doing? I am here today with Jay Dyer, 3 00:01:10.439 --> 00:01:14.280 a very very special guest. H Jay, do you like 4 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:15.159 my intro music? 5 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:16.920 I do. 6 00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:18.719 I'm having to turn you off because I had you 7 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:21.760 already going in the background, so yeah, I'm getting a 8 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:24.200 double dose of you and the music, and so it's 9 00:01:24.200 --> 00:01:24.920 like a remix. 10 00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:29.519 But yeah, nice, amazing, that's amazing. That must sound even better. Uh. 11 00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:33.319 This is basically like the Islamic humming that they always 12 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:39.159 play pathetic. I thought remixed it made much better. It 13 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:40.959 would be much better if it always sounded like this, 14 00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:41.879 but they just don't get it. 15 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:48.560 So I'm good. Yeah. 16 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:51.799 You know, we had a good chat the other day 17 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:54.640 on my channel, and you brought up a lot of 18 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:57.599 good issues and kind of probably stuff that was old 19 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:00.120 hat to you. But it's good to go to that 20 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:02.120 stuff because you know, maybe a lot of my audience 21 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:04.200 might not know a lot of that kind of old 22 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:07.159 hat classic stuff that you know. So yeah, you brought 23 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:09.319 a lot of interesting insights. One thing I'd like to 24 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:12.159 say from the outset was a lot of people got 25 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:15.759 mad or fussed. A lot of Muslims and even a 26 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:18.879 few Christians that you and I would have these conversations. 27 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:22.960 And it's odd to me because, first thing, you know, 28 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:26.639 whether you're Muslim or Atheist or Christian or whatever, we 29 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:28.879 should all be aware of fallacies and what they are, 30 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:33.680 and the genetic fallacy is one of the more well 31 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:38.240 known fallacies. Because it doesn't matter what source an argument 32 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:42.039 comes from, the argument either stands or falls on its own. 33 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:45.520 So it doesn't matter who says the argument. If Judas 34 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:48.520 says an argument has nothing to do with his betrayal, 35 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:52.560 whether that argument is true or false, right likewise, and 36 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:53.759 you would think people would know this. 37 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:55.759 Likewise. 38 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:57.560 The only case that I can think of in which 39 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:02.719 we would consider bodies character in an argument is if 40 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:05.639 the argument was about that person's character, or if they 41 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:07.800 committed a crime or something like that. In that case, 42 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:10.680 it would be appropriate to investigate their character. But the 43 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:16.319 basis of their arguments, the validity the arguments themselves, none 44 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:17.879 of them have any None of that has anything to 45 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:23.439 do with the person's character and their beliefs. And it's 46 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:25.800 odd to me that people don't understand that. But as 47 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:28.240 I'm beginning to realize with I think this is like 48 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:33.520 my fifth or sixth Islamic debate fallacies seem to be 49 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:35.680 something that a lot of Muslims are not aware of. 50 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:41.159 Yeah, precisely, I agree with everything that's out there pretty much. 51 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:44.280 And you will see this every single time when you 52 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:48.080 have a debate with Muslims. Most Muslims, the most apologists 53 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:53.360 you will encounterar the same complaints all the time. If 54 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:56.319 you are if you genuinely want you to discuss this topic, 55 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:58.520 then you shouldn't talk to this person, shouldn't talk to 56 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:02.000 that person, shouldn't talk to this other guy. UH, only 57 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:05.840 talk to us, only discuss with us. People who criticize 58 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:09.639 Islam are unreliable and if you talk to them, that 59 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:14.360 means that you are automatically marked as somebody who has 60 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:17.759 no genuine interest in debating, and you must be shunned 61 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:22.480 at all costs. And that's understandable considering that UH, criticizing 62 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:25.920 Islam is not allowed, and especially me as an as 63 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:28.160 an ex Muslim, I'm not even supposed to exist in 64 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:31.480 Dynal Kikichu's worldview. Like he told me when we when 65 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:35.560 we were talking, he basically told me that he thinks 66 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:40.600 I should be executed for my leaving Islam. So it 67 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:43.879 is really it is. Islam is unique, and Muslims are 68 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:48.959 unique in that way where they very often just have 69 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:55.879 to invoke that fallacy without understanding the problem that it 70 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:00.759 that it that it presents. As as said, when we 71 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:03.160 talk about the whole issue with the name of God 72 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:10.639 Yahweh and Islam versus versus Abrahamic biblical religion, he chooses 73 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:14.160 to now completely ignore the points even when you bring 74 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:18.879 it up simply because because you reference me, or because 75 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:21.000 you make a reference to what he said to me. 76 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:24.079 And when he talked to me about it, he clearly 77 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:27.360 had no clue and later he denied what he actually said. 78 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:30.759 He basically blasphemed and then later denied what he actually said. 79 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:35.040 It was surprising because it's I mean, everybody can see 80 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:38.560 the clip, and you know, he clearly says it's a 81 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:42.519 pagan name, and then when asked about that, he says, 82 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.480 I never said that. So you know, it's like this 83 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:48.360 is multiple times now where I'm really questioning, you know, 84 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:49.399 does he is he really? 85 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:52.120 Is he disingenuous? 86 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:55.439 Right, because I mean, if you have a person on 87 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:58.240 record saying it, it's really difficult to then rewrite the 88 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:00.680 history and say no, I never said that. But you 89 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:03.120 did say that, so at least you would. You could 90 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:06.120 either own up to it and say, well, I said that, 91 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:09.160 but here's what I meant, or here's a clarification, but 92 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:13.399 the outright just so I never said that. I'm noticing 93 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:16.720 a pattern of And this is not to say that 94 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:18.600 Christians are always honest. 95 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.279 People in any position can be dishonest. You can be 96 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:23.800 an atheist be dishonest. You be a Christian be dishonest. 97 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:26.360 You could be a Muslim and be dishonest. But there 98 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:28.120 seems to be, as you noted, a kind of a 99 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:33.879 tendency to shun the rational discourse, shun the logical argumentation. 100 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.480 And again I'm not an expert on Islam. I'm still 101 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:39.720 in the process of learning. To me, it looks like 102 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:43.639 there's a tendency to when you have this going back 103 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:47.959 to the original pure Islam, which is what my understanding 104 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:52.079 of Daniel's school, that what it represents, there's a tendency 105 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:57.399 again to have to shun logic, to have to shun argumentation, 106 00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:01.279 because that's seen as later development. Lam is a later development, 107 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:06.120 and that might lead to problems, right, because there might 108 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:08.720 be questions that are not permitted to ask. I remember 109 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:12.120 in the when I was prepared for the Asraa Rashid debate, 110 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:16.199 we found some of those old Sunni texts which, even 111 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:18.360 though they were engaged in kalam one are the texts 112 00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:21.519 dealt with the names of a law of the attributes. 113 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:26.920 And there was a point where the question is raised, well, 114 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:31.079 how do we reconcile the fact of God of Allah's 115 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:35.759 pure unity with the fact that we're naming many names 116 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:38.759 and what about the distinction between the names? And at 117 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:41.199 a certain point it says it is not permitted to 118 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:44.439 ask this question. So it's just sort of like you 119 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:47.360 can debate and discuss to a certain point, then it's 120 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:50.720 not permitted. And as you were saying, the idea that 121 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:55.720 there's this unity about Islamic theology is not true. At 122 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:57.319 one point in the debate, you know, Daniel's trying to 123 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:02.720 say Christians disagree, there's debates, there's there's that Wait a minute, I. 124 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:04.079 Mean, you guys don't agree. 125 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:07.000 You guys have all kinds of So in other words, 126 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:11.199 if disagreements made a position true or false, no position 127 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:14.680 would be true false. I mean yeah, they would need 128 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:18.079 because none of them would be true. Because now if 129 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:20.759 some sort of majority opinion or if the fact that 130 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:24.040 we have, you know, thirty percent of the Islamic schools 131 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:27.319 agree about this position, sixty percent agree with this position. 132 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:29.120 I mean, none of that has anything to do with 133 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:32.879 whether it's true false. It's another fallacy to appeal to majority, 134 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.679 appeal to consensus. You can certainly bring in experts, but 135 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:40.960 expert testimony itself doesn't necessarily prove a thing. 136 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:43.000 And so I just over and. 137 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:45.080 Over and overhere to hear these appeals that were very 138 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:48.399 similar to you know, fallacies that I've seen in other 139 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:51.159 debates that when I would bring them up, you could 140 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:54.759 tell that he didn't even know what what I was referencing. 141 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:55.279 What do you mean? 142 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:00.440 Yeah, Yeah, there was this very awkward moment that that 143 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.519 I saw, actually multiple awkward moments about the very same 144 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:05.639 thing during the debate that you had with Daniel Kikitche, 145 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:10.559 which was where you brought up the idea that the 146 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:15.440 Quran tells Jews and Christians that they should read their 147 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:18.279 their own book, and it says that their book is 148 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:24.320 is confirmed. But if you go to that book, then 149 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:27.519 you have the problem of somebody like Daniel Kikitchu saying, okay, 150 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:30.039 but those books are invalid because they have contradictions and 151 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:33.600 they were corrupted, and so you are caught in this 152 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:36.200 whole in this whole dilemma. Okay, are those books now 153 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:39.080 confirmed and authentic or are they not? And he then 154 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:41.919 comes in and and and and presents this position, which 155 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:44.519 is the best he can do, because it is just 156 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:47.679 it's it's a whole problem that Muslims can't get out of. 157 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:51.000 He then tells you that when the Jews and Christians 158 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:55.200 go to those books, uh, they will see contradictions in 159 00:09:55.279 --> 00:10:00.240 those books with monotheism as presented in Islam, which is 160 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:02.440 why they will understand that those books are wrong. Okay, 161 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:04.799 but that means that they have to evaluate that whole 162 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:09.080 situation from its club's perspective, which doesn't make sense. Yeah. Right. 163 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:13.120 If what's in question is the continuity of the Quran 164 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:17.360 with previous revelation, then I asked a very simple question 165 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:21.200 to Daniel, which was, what is the epistemic principle that 166 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:25.799 you have that tells you when the Old Testament is 167 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:28.679 true and when it's false? And he says the Quran. 168 00:10:29.320 --> 00:10:32.080 But the thing is that that's what's in question, So 169 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:34.279 you can't just appeal to the thing any question. When 170 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:38.120 we're asking about prior revelation. Now you could say, but Jay, 171 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:39.480 what you did in the day, He said, But Jay, 172 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:42.039 you you appealed to the Old Testament too, in terms 173 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:43.919 of your position, Yeah, but I don't argue that the. 174 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:46.159 Old Testament has a lot of contradictions. 175 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:48.960 So if I thought the Old Testament had contradictions and 176 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:52.320 Christianity was the new revelation that replaced it, I would 177 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:55.600 be in the same boat as Daniel's position. You see, yeah, 178 00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:57.519 because you could say, well, you know, the New Testament 179 00:10:57.559 --> 00:11:00.559 appeals to the Old Testament, right, but it ever makes 180 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:05.639 the appeal that the Old Testament is true and valid, 181 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:07.679 but it also has contradictions. 182 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:09.080 That's Daniel's position. 183 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:11.120 Daniel's position that the Old Testament is true and valid 184 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:14.200 because the Koran says so, however, there's all these passages 185 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:16.919 that don't teach the pure mono theism of Islam. And 186 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:20.480 I still have that drawing here that I had drawn 187 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:23.960 up the things whiteboard here. So these are just examples 188 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:27.120 of theophanies where we find real distinctions in God in 189 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:28.679 the Old Testament. And there's more. 190 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:31.519 This is just one list that I could fit on 191 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:32.399 one board. 192 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.279 And Daniel says, yeah, those are problem texts that are 193 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:39.720 all contradictions. Now, wait a minute. That's why I asked 194 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:42.639 the question, Well, then, what's the epistemic principle that tells 195 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:44.879 you when you go through the Old Testament? Oh, this 196 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:47.480 is the true verse false, verse true, verse false, verse, 197 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:50.759 this chapter true, this chapter false, this chunk true, this 198 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:55.960 chunk false. And the principle was whatever's consistent with the Quran. 199 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.200 But the question was, how do we know that the 200 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:02.120 Qoran is can assistant with prior revelation given the fact 201 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:06.519 that the Quran says you can validate this with the 202 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:09.080 books given to the Jews and the Christians. You see, 203 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:12.360 this is, like you said, it's an irresolvable dilemma. And 204 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:14.159 that's why I had to sort of draw this out 205 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:17.879 for him on the small board, what is your episode 206 00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:23.639 of principle similarity to the Old Testament? And then eventually 207 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:25.639 ended up saying, well, you just you just look and 208 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:28.960 see with your eyes what's consistent with with what's not consistent? 209 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:31.480 You see, So you just look at your eyes. So 210 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:33.360 can I do not appeal to the same thing of 211 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:34.720 just looking with my eyes. 212 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:39.279 It's also extremely funny because the Quran clearly and explicitly 213 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:44.000 says about the Jews and Christians. It says, why do 214 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:47.000 they come to you when when they have, you know, 215 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:50.120 what was revealed to them, basically saying that they should 216 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:54.240 just go back and read their books. But that doesn't 217 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:59.679 make any sense. If you once again present this whole problem, 218 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:02.840 it again goes into this circular nonsense that he cannot 219 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:05.200 get out of. What are they supposed to do? They 220 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:07.120 are supposed to Jews and Christians are supposed to go 221 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:08.919 and read their own scriptures. They don't supposed to come 222 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:11.039 to Muhammad. Okay, if they are supposed to read their 223 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:13.039 own scriptures, then they will be educated by their own 224 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:18.440 scriptures on their own beliefs and on how their beliefs are, 225 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:20.600 on what they are supposed to believe according to their 226 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:24.799 own scriptures, which if they do that will eventually contradict 227 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:27.759 with what Islam Telstone. But then Daniel Kikichu and other 228 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:29.840 Muslims come out and say, well, no, no, no, no, 229 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:33.519 you can't take those things in there that contradict with 230 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:36.639 real belief because you know those are in values. You 231 00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:39.320 take the rest. Okay, what is the rest? Well, whatever 232 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:40.440 agrees with my beliefs. 233 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:43.120 Yeah, And I mentioned that he couldn't see that that 234 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:47.559 was a circle. Now, if he affirm circular logic, then 235 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:49.360 I would have I mean he would That would have 236 00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:51.720 been more honest and he could have like maybe gone 237 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:52.440 in another direction. 238 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:53.440 But of course he didn't want. 239 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:57.720 To do that because typically when Muslims do accept varying 240 00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:03.039 degrees of philosophy, whichever school they're in, it's usually kind 241 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:06.639 of a very broad stroke. For example, I have Azar 242 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:10.519 Rashid's book. When we did our debate, I got his book, 243 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:16.120 and his approach to epistemology was just a very basic empiricism. 244 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:19.039 So you know, if you want to have that school 245 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:23.440 and that approach, that's what that's fine. But anybody that 246 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:28.960 does that's going to have to deal with the outworkings 247 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:31.279 of adopting that position. So if you have a very 248 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:34.120 basic empiricist view, you're going to have a hard time 249 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:39.279 justifying or given account for questions like what about a 250 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:42.320 circular argument that you're presenting about the relationship with the 251 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:47.320 krant prior revelation you can't affirm just from a strictly 252 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:49.919 philosophical perspective, You're not going to be able to affirm 253 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:54.159 circular argumentation if you're an empiricist, unless you just want 254 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:56.159 to say that my position is just self evident. But 255 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:58.000 if he wants to go that route, then I can 256 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:00.360 just say, okay, well my position is self evident if 257 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:04.320 everybody can just appeal to their own internal self evidence, 258 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:06.360 which I don't believe. 259 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:07.200 We should do in a debate. 260 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:09.799 But if you do that, it kind of makes debate 261 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:12.279 no longer possible because the opponent, you see, can appeal 262 00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:14.120 to the same thing I walk can just appeal to 263 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:17.000 my all my principles are just quote self evident, right, 264 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:19.600 So so that's not usually the best. That's not usually 265 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:23.120 how debates go, unless you're debating something like, you know, 266 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:27.200 some obscure topic like transcendental arguments or circular argumentation itself. 267 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:27.840 Is it possible? 268 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:28.759 Is it not possible? 269 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:31.440 Most debates are not going in that way. And that's 270 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:35.320 why you know, cor three says there is no God 271 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:39.120 but He the living, the self subsisting. He sent down 272 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:42.440 the book that is truth upon the confirming what it 273 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:45.799 was before he sent the Torah and the Ngel, the Gospel, 274 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:51.720 and it is the guidance to mankind. Nothing about but 275 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:54.480 it is half corrupted. You see, Oh, it is seventy 276 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:57.159 percent corrupted. And that's the thing, is that when you 277 00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:00.639 actually look at as and I haven't. Let's just take 278 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:03.559 the first ten stories, for example. I went through the 279 00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:06.279 first ten, and I got a giant list of all 280 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:11.759 of the references in the first ten to sections of 281 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:15.639 the Torah and the profits, right, And here's the thing, 282 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:17.320 this is what I was trying to get it. I 283 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:19.120 don't think Daniel got this point. I was trying to 284 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:22.919 get it across, which is that you got giant portions 285 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:29.120 that are referred to referenced giant stories, the Exodusk story, 286 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:34.200 the conquests of David, different stories in the Book of Genesis, 287 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:39.600 for example, the creation narrative is largely affirmed. So if 288 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:42.799 we're going to admit that these giant portions of the 289 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:46.440 Torah are correct, then now we've got a problem of 290 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:50.720 giant portions not correct. Right, So it doesn't really matter 291 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.080 what percent did you want to say. Let's say you 292 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:56.320 think seventy percent of it's true and thirty percent is false. 293 00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:58.200 Or maybe you think thirty percent of the Old Testament 294 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:03.759 the profits is true and seventy percent is false. Either way, 295 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:07.480 you're stuck in the same kind of bind. Because number one, 296 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:13.000 the Quran actually says, as you noted, that it's not consistent. Right, 297 00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:15.400 they'll excuse me that the Old Testament is not full 298 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:19.480 of errors. That's a later argument that they may And 299 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:23.119 when it does mentions, I think, like you said, when 300 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:27.200 it does mention that they perverted the message, it says 301 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:29.680 they perverted the message with their mouth. It doesn't say 302 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:34.599 the text is perverted. So there's not an intertextual argument 303 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:38.440 that I'm aware of that argues that the Torah and 304 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.319 the Gospel are full of errors. This is a later argument. 305 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:43.559 This is why they go to talk about going to 306 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:47.119 non believers. Well, they ran to you know, bart Ermin 307 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:50.920 and people for me for so long until bart Erman 308 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:55.039 said that now there is historical evidence for Christ and crucifixion, 309 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:56.519 and then I think they wanted to get rid of 310 00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.920 using bart Ermin because again, so it's like this double state, 311 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:01.759 and is what I'm trying to say, there's a double 312 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:06.200 standard of you know, I can't talk to you because 313 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:09.240 you don't have the same religion as me. And it's like, 314 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:11.000 but it does have something to do with the arguments. 315 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:14.519 But the arguments are true or false regardless of the person. 316 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.559 But to go back to your point, like you know, 317 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:20.319 I'm just trying to stress that. Look, if you're gonna 318 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:23.920 say that a giant portion of the prior revelation is false, 319 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:27.640 which is what his position amounts to, then you're gonna 320 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:30.480 have to give an account for why does the Quran 321 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:35.039 then assume many of these stories, oftentimes in passing, So 322 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:38.599 it'll just reference an event or a person, right, And 323 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:41.319 how else would we know the context and the meaning 324 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:44.240 and the background of that person without going to the 325 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:49.000 prior revelation which predates them, It predates the Koran, predates 326 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:49.960 the Quran, and isn't. 327 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:53.240 And we have some very very explicit Quran versus like 328 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:57.400 chapter five, verse forty seven, which say, and let the 329 00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:01.480 people of the Gospel, Christians judge by what Allah has 330 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:04.640 revealed therein, And whoever does not judge by what Allah 331 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:09.079 is revealed, then those are the defiantly disobedient. So according 332 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:12.680 to that verse itself, who are what are Christians supposed 333 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:16.720 to judge by by the Gospel, by what was revealed 334 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:20.000 to them by In the Quran's understanding, and it's understanding, 335 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:23.480 the Gospel is basically a revelation that was revealed to Jesus, 336 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:25.400 like the Quran was revealed to Ahamed. It has a 337 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:28.559 very it has a big misunderstanding of what the Gospel 338 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:33.079 actually is, and it tells the Christians explicitly they are 339 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.759 that they should simply stand by and judge by what 340 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:40.160 the Gospel says. And there is no single reference throughout 341 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:44.640 the Qur'an which explicitly tells you that those books are 342 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:47.079 no longer valued, that those books have been corrupted, that 343 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:50.200 they have been corrupted into oblivion. Such a mindset only 344 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:56.039 only emerged over the centuries much later, I think, as 345 00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:59.680 late as like the eleventh or eleventh century or twelfth 346 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:03.839 century it was. It became entrenched into Islamic thinking that 347 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:09.880 those that those books, the Torah and the Ingia as 348 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:13.799 they refer to them, meaning the Gospel and the Torah, 349 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:18.440 were overall corrupted. But that is just that is just 350 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:21.160 as it seems, an explanation that they came up with 351 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:26.920 because they could not explain the abundance of contradictions between 352 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:31.359 the Bible and the Quran, and contradictions on such a 353 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:36.680 level that you cannot possibly believe that both of those 354 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:41.799 sources as they are today came from the same God. 355 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:44.519 You cannot hold on to of them at the same time, 356 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:48.319 it is simply impossible. And I would say, it's like 357 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:52.960 this whole game of those books are corrupt. They're not 358 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:56.839 in their original form. They are only consistent wherever they 359 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:00.319 are consistent with my beliefs. That would be like if 360 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.319 you went out there, like if Christians went out there, 361 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.079 or if I if anybody went out there and said, 362 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:10.160 you know, Mohammed was actually a righteous guy. He was 363 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:13.440 led and he was leading people to the belief in 364 00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:18.880 one God. But his followers corrupted his sayings and corrupted 365 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.960 the actual Qur'an, which was full of truth. And when 366 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:26.559 Mulim's then asked well how can you improve this, did 367 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:30.640 you simply say, well, everything that Muhammad said, everything in 368 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:35.839 the Quran that agrees with our Abrahamic beliefs is correct, 369 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:39.200 and everything else that disagrees is obviously corrupted. And there 370 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.319 is your proof. Now let go of your Islamic beliefs 371 00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:45.680 and come to the truth. Put them in the same position. 372 00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:49.880 Yeah, exactly. I mean two points there that come to mind. 373 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:52.359 I want to read that sort of five. I'm glad 374 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.640 you mentioned it because it's really strong. It says, how 375 00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:57.599 is it that they come to deeper judgment when they 376 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:02.160 have the Torah, wherein is God judgment. Even after that 377 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:04.519 they turn their backs and they are not believers. Truly, 378 00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:07.680 we sent down the Torah they're in as guidance, where 379 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:10.519 in His guidance and light by what the prophets who 380 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:14.440 submitted unto God judged those who are Jews, as did 381 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:17.400 the sages and the rabbis, in accordance with such with 382 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:21.480 God's books, as they were bidden to preserve it, and 383 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:25.680 to which they were witnesses. So I fear not mankind, 384 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:29.960 fear me. My signs are for sell, not my signs 385 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:33.319 for a paltry price, where whosoever judge is not by 386 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:37.440 what God has sent down. So like as you said, 387 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:39.119 he goes on to say in the Footsteps, we sent 388 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:42.279 Jesus confirming the Torah, and we gave him that. 389 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:43.960 Gospel confirming the Torah. 390 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:46.839 So the assumption of these texts is that there's continuity 391 00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:48.799 not just with the Old Testament of the Koran, but 392 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.480 between the Torah and what Jesus said. 393 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:52.599 Right. 394 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:55.160 But when we go to what Jesus said, of course, 395 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:58.400 there's a lot of problem texts, such as the entire 396 00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:01.799 Gospel of John, which is why usually Islamic apologetics just says, 397 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:04.720 that's one we throw out. So now we're throwing out 398 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:08.480 entire books because as you pointed out, well wait a minute, 399 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:11.359 the kron speaks as if they thought the Gospel or 400 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:14.759 the nGael was this book that Jesus got, like like 401 00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:19.240 Muhammad got the Quran. It's not. It's a recorded it's 402 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:24.440 the disciples recording this oral message and then passing on 403 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:28.480 various texts which give, in my view, a coherent narrative. 404 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:33.440 So it's just amazing that this it's not a very 405 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.759 complex argument. I mean, it might be complex if you're 406 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:39.079 not used to the Old Testament, or if you don't 407 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:41.720 know actually what's in the Torah and the prophets in 408 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:43.759 the Bible, But if you actually go and look and see, 409 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.279 it's pretty clear. Now. The other thing that Daniel referenced 410 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:50.119 was the text in Jeremiah, and he didn't even get 411 00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:54.000 that the This was actually called out by one of 412 00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:57.319 the super chat questions I think if I recall, but 413 00:23:57.400 --> 00:23:59.440 he said, oh, well, you see, Jeremiah says that the 414 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:03.279 scribe have perverted the text. It doesn't say the scribes 415 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:08.039 perverted the Torah. It says that the scribes perverted their text, 416 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:11.799 meaning they're what I would say. When Jesus rebukes the Pharisees, 417 00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:14.319 he says, you've added things to the commands of God. 418 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:17.720 And it doesn't mean that the Torah was essentially altered, 419 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:21.160 because Jesus says in the same Gospel that the scriptures 420 00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:24.480 cannot be broken. He presupposes and cites the Torah at 421 00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:28.960 length throughout the Gospels. So the text in Jeremiah is not, 422 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:31.880 first of all, referring to the Torah itself being corrupted. 423 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:36.319 It's talking about the rabbinical traditions. However, even if Daniel 424 00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:38.880 did want to say that the text in Jeremiah is 425 00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:42.200 referring to the Torah being corrupted, Daniel doesn't have a 426 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:45.599 principle by which to know for sure that that text 427 00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:50.119 of Jeremiah isn't corrupted, because the entire Old Testament and prophets, 428 00:24:50.119 --> 00:24:52.680 in his view, are potentially corrupted. That's why asked, in 429 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:56.240 the principle of epistemic certitude, what is the principle by 430 00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:00.079 which you judge when the Old Testament's true when it's false. Well, 431 00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:01.920 it's whenever it agrees with the Kuran. Ok. How do 432 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:04.279 you know that the text in Jeremiah that you're citing 433 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:08.440 about corruption isn't also corrupted because it agrees with the Kuran. 434 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:12.440 So again it all comes back to this circle. But 435 00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:14.839 as you pointed out, it's not even a good circle 436 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:17.799 because the book itself that He's is his ultimate principle 437 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:22.039 already affirms that there's not error and contradiction in the 438 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:23.160 prior revelations. 439 00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:26.519 Yeah, even if we talk about so when we talk 440 00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:29.799 about Jeremiah as a source, there is another problem which 441 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:33.480 we talked about last week when we were in your channel, 442 00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:37.559 which is that Jeremiah is an easy prophet as a 443 00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:44.000 prophetic source, is not even recognized in Islam. So you 444 00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:48.799 could it's not mentioned in the Quran. This might be 445 00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:52.319 a big surprise to many people, but Jeremiah is not 446 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:55.839 mentioned in the Koran. Huge huge profit in Abrahamic religion. 447 00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:00.279 Samuel is not mentioned in the Quran. Huge profit. Isaiah 448 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:04.480 is amazingly huge prophet not mentioned in the Quran. Aslam 449 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:07.559 as no cool about Isaiah. Daniel, which is very ironic, 450 00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:11.119 is also Daniel Kikschu's name is not mentioned in the Quran. 451 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:14.799 These prophets are not recognized as prophets anywhere in the Quran. 452 00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:21.240 Any most knowledge about these prophets comes from Jews and Christians. 453 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:23.680 They have to go to Jews and Christians literally to 454 00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:28.160 get information about about these people. So when it comes 455 00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:31.720 to Daniel Ki gets you referencing something in Jeremiah, that 456 00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:35.920 would mean he is making reference to a book that 457 00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:40.160 is a prophetic book according to the Jews and Christians, 458 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:45.319 whom he cannot trust because they allegedly corrupted everything. So 459 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:50.759 he is appealing to a potentially corrupted source, which, according 460 00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:54.839 to him, argues that things were at some point corrupted. 461 00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:57.759 This is just no way to go, hope for to 462 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:02.039 make up stolid argument against for the corruption of Judaism 463 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:02.799 and Christianity. 464 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:05.400 Well, the other funny thing too is that and by 465 00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:07.440 the way, I know that you know, in our last 466 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.960 talk on my channel, we had talked about the fact 467 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:15.119 that many of these prophets that are major figures in 468 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:18.759 the Old Testament, major prophets, that they I didn't even 469 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:20.960 realize that it's that they're not even mentioned by name 470 00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:23.319 in the sense of absolutely no mention. I thought, maybe 471 00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:25.799 there's passing references, you know, to the Holy prophet of 472 00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:28.759 so and so, But but you're saying Jeremiah is not 473 00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:29.559 even mentioned at all. 474 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:32.519 It's not mentioned at allow. Jeremiah has no mention in 475 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:33.000 the Corona. 476 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:35.960 That's wild, because you know, if we were looking for 477 00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:38.680 a religion that was in continuity of prior prophets, I 478 00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:41.200 mean from the vantage point of Jews and Christians. I 479 00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.119 mean Isaiah, as we said, is called the Fifth Gospel. 480 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.279 I mean, it's just huge, even if you don't believe 481 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:51.359 Jesus is and Messiah like I mean, Isaiah is Gian 482 00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:56.200 sixty six chapters. It's huge, you know, Ezekiel huge, right, 483 00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:59.920 Jeremiah huge, I mean vast books of the of. 484 00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:00.680 The Old Testament. 485 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.920 And by the way, just a little funny side note, 486 00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:07.960 the name Daniel means God is my judge. And the 487 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:13.960 l there is would be probably what Daniel was looking 488 00:28:13.960 --> 00:28:15.720 for when he was looking for the name that was 489 00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:17.400 pagan l l ohem. 490 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:19.400 That doesn't mean the name is pagan. 491 00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:22.519 Right. This is a word concept fallacy because it's just 492 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:26.200 like the word divinity. The word divinity or deity might 493 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.440 refer to God, it might refer to many gods. It 494 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:33.839 might refer to angels, demons, or a human being viewed 495 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.119 as a divine figure. It's it's a generic term, and 496 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:40.640 so amongst the Canaanites. The term L could be a 497 00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:43.000 reference to any kind of deity or a. 498 00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:43.839 Class of deities. 499 00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:46.279 Right, So a lot of people make this mistake because 500 00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:48.920 they think, oh, well, anything with the name L in it, 501 00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:54.039 Danielle must be so ironically, his own name would be 502 00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:55.119 a pagan name. 503 00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:02.000 I mean, the Bible also uses L or as when 504 00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:05.039 when it refers to other gods, when it refers to 505 00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:08.599 other false gods, when it refers to them them making 506 00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:12.759 a god of of objects of of Yeah. Different. 507 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.119 It's a word that's a generic term, like like the 508 00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:18.480 word deity or divinity. 509 00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:20.720 Yeah, yeah, so it would be it's it's it's just 510 00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:25.160 very ignorant from general's perspective and other people's perspective to 511 00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:29.720 argue that that would be the the actual name and 512 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:32.920 then to deny the existence of Yahweh as Uh as 513 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:34.880 name of God, and that this is one of my 514 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:38.319 favorite things by now to to go to one of 515 00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:41.000 my one of my favorite arguments against Islam, the whole 516 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:44.119 absence and ignorance of the name Yahweh in Islam. And 517 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.480 we talked about this in length on your I don't 518 00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:48.119 know if you're talking about it. 519 00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.119 Yeah, it's an amazing argument that you found there with that, 520 00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:54.960 and especially going into the prophets whose names are also 521 00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.279 derivatives of that, and I think that, I mean, I 522 00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:04.279 can't see how this argument can be overcome. I mean 523 00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:06.880 it's really it's really probably one of the strongest that 524 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:12.119 I've heard. Uh So again, the fact that you, being atheist, 525 00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:13.920 have that argument has nothing to do. I mean, the 526 00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:16.039 argument stands on our own on its own right. So 527 00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:18.839 it's like, I mean, it's a strong argument no matter 528 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:21.400 who says it. And I think that any position that 529 00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:23.960 doesn't want to deal with arguments and has to kind 530 00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:27.160 of fall over into these kinds of like, oh well 531 00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:29.359 he needs to just be gotten rid of or you. 532 00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:30.640 Know, shut up, shut him up. 533 00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:32.400 I mean, that's just showing kind of weakness in the 534 00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:33.599 position from my vanished point. 535 00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:36.920 Yeah, and even when I brought that whole argument about 536 00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:39.920 the name of Yahweh on how Islam is completely ignorant 537 00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:43.160 of the name of Yahweh, I specifically brought that topic 538 00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:45.279 to him and challenged him on that because I knew 539 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:49.440 very well that he that his understanding of scripture, theology 540 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:54.559 and things like that is very very poor. He was 541 00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:58.480 actively it looks like it clearly looks like he was 542 00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:01.640 actively researching while I was talking and then trying to 543 00:31:01.640 --> 00:31:06.440 give me these off way answers to my challenge. And 544 00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:10.200 what he did come up with is, well, Yahweh did 545 00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:13.680 not Yahweh was not in in Genesis, which was false. 546 00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:17.039 Yahweh is just you know, it's it's a name that 547 00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:23.119 the Hebrews probably adopted this pagan name from the from 548 00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:27.559 from from these polytheistic people, and then gave that name 549 00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:31.960 to their own God. And later prophets actually fought against 550 00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:36.200 this and wanted to you know, rid their religion of 551 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:40.160 this corruption, but then you know, it just kept being 552 00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:42.799 used in this corrupt form. 553 00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:45.960 It just doesn't weird because that's that's yeah, that's usually 554 00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:48.720 the when people who and that's a very low tier argument, 555 00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:51.119 like you said, based on ignorance, they usually are referring 556 00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:54.680 to Aloheim. Usually they say the name Elohim is the 557 00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:59.599 one that is borrowed from Canaanite religion and therefore Christianity 558 00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:03.319 and Judy or false because there's this paganization just on 559 00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:06.519 the basis of a word concept ballacy of the name Elohim. 560 00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:10.599 But I think he got mixed up or he just 561 00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.240 slipped oh, well, Yahweh is the same thing. It's like 562 00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:15.640 that it's a pagan it's but it's not. There's no 563 00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:19.119 equivalent that I'm aware of it being a pagan name. 564 00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:23.839 So what he did as a result is he completely 565 00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:28.519 wasted the one opportunity of actually dealing with that argument 566 00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:33.599 and still presents it as if he was actually he 567 00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:36.839 actually successfully argued his point when he was challenged with that. 568 00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:39.920 But when you look at the footage, you can clearly 569 00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:43.759 see that he gives completely nonsensical answers and it's just 570 00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:45.799 out there, and he still doesn't engage with it anymore 571 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:50.000 after I called him out that his response doesn't make sense, 572 00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.680 that his response that Yahweh is a pagan name basically 573 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:56.400 invalidates Islam as well, because Islam itself, the crown itself 574 00:32:56.480 --> 00:33:01.599 uses theophoric names which clearly references Awe, including the biggest 575 00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:06.240 I would say is Elijah, which truly means Ali yahooh 576 00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:09.720 my God, is Yahweh. And he didn't even get that. 577 00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:11.720 He was like, Okay, well, why why is that Yahweh? 578 00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:15.880 That doesn't sound like yeahweh? Okay, yeah, it doesn't have 579 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:21.319 to exactly sound like yeah, yeah, it's Ali. Yahli. Yeah, 580 00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:23.119 that the Yah is already enough that that that is 581 00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:28.200 what is commonly used throughout the Bible and throughout throughout 582 00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:32.039 Hebrew to reference reference Yahweh, and that should already be 583 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:34.759 enough for him. Plus you have two instances of the 584 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:41.279 Quran explicitly naming, explicitly saying that John and Jesus, two 585 00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:47.359 figures that were Allah announced their names beforehand, before they 586 00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:50.799 were born, and it is Allah himself who gave them 587 00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:56.519 those names, and both of those names referenced Yahweh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 588 00:33:56.559 --> 00:33:58.880 So it is just it is just. 589 00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:00.960 Well, I don't know if you saw the when I 590 00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:05.440 posted you the clip that you argued. His reply was, 591 00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:10.840 I never said that. And it's like the clip has 592 00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:11.679 you think, what do you mean? 593 00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:12.360 Never said it? 594 00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:15.559 And that's it. He wouldn't respond to that, right. 595 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:18.800 I mean that was the response. I never said that. 596 00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:22.960 Yeah, free bird said Yahweh. Don't mention the New Testament. 597 00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:24.679 Sure it does. 598 00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:28.320 Yeah, go ahead if you want to respond to that, 599 00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:31.159 so I would, I would say, off the top of 600 00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:34.320 my head, it is already. First off, it is it's 601 00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:37.960 a completely irrelevant point because Christians don't have the problem 602 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:42.920 which Muslims have of not having the previous scriptures the 603 00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:45.360 Old Testament. It is known as the Old Testament as 604 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:48.719 part of the Bible, so Christians read the very book 605 00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:56.320 which mentions Yahweh over six thousand times, although due to 606 00:34:56.519 --> 00:35:01.119 Hebrew tradition it was it is shane into auto and 607 00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:03.960 I in Hebrew and then the English for example, into a 608 00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:08.159 lord in capital letters. But that is basically Yahweh plus 609 00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:12.079 plus the New Testament says Hallelujah for example, which is 610 00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:16.960 a direct, direct inclusion of direct reference to Yahweh. 611 00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:19.039 Yeah, there's a lot of different ways that you can 612 00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:21.679 demonstrate this. One of those, as I pointed out, is 613 00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:24.320 if you look at Exodus three, when you have the 614 00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:27.440 burning bush manifestation or what we call it a theophany, 615 00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:30.920 it's known as the ash air, it's God saying I 616 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:33.639 am that I am, and so God is the I am. 617 00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:36.800 This is also equivalent to or. 618 00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:39.679 A reference to Yahweh as well, because if you go 619 00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:45.519 over to Exodus twenty three, God says that the angel 620 00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:48.079 who will go before the messenger. And I remember, a 621 00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:51.880 messenger doesn't always mean a created angel. It can be 622 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:54.400 a divine messenger or it can be a created messenger 623 00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:57.159 like Gabriel or whoever. But if you look at Exodus 624 00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:01.320 twenty three, the same mess or the one that the 625 00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:04.400 voice that speaks in the bush is identified as the 626 00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:08.559 same messenger who will I'll read it. Hold, I will 627 00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:11.880 send my messenger before your face to keep you in 628 00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:14.039 the way and in the land that are prepared. Listen 629 00:36:14.119 --> 00:36:17.079 to him and obey the voice. Do not provoke him, 630 00:36:17.079 --> 00:36:20.000 for he will not pardon your sins. Only God can 631 00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:24.119 prepardon sins. By the way, not angels. My name Yahweh 632 00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:28.840 is in him, is in the as in the the 633 00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:31.840 being speaking from the bush. It's this identified as the 634 00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:35.039 same being of Exodus three. And so when you read 635 00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:39.239 the Gospel of John, Jesus says for many in many instances, 636 00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:42.840 I am, He says, I am, when before Abraham was 637 00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:45.880 I am. And particularly if you want to focus on 638 00:36:46.519 --> 00:36:50.719 John one and then John five through nine. In those chapters, 639 00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:54.559 Jesus identifies himself as the one that spoke to Moses. 640 00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:58.320 So the one speaking in the bush, the one speaking 641 00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:01.079 and being the messenger to go before them to either 642 00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:02.519 pardon them or not pardon them. 643 00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:03.760 In Exodus twenty three. 644 00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.239 Jesus identifying himself as that to the Pharisees. And that's 645 00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:10.000 what motivates the Pharisees in John five through nine to 646 00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:14.679 want to stone him because they recognized Jesus saying, Abraham 647 00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:19.559 believed in me. Abraham saw my day. Abraham believed in me, 648 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:23.679 saw my day and was glad. He says Moses, right, 649 00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:28.199 no one sees the Father at any time, but he 650 00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:31.360 says that somebody was there speaking to Moses. He's implying 651 00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:34.199 that it was himself. He says, Moses wrote about me. 652 00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:38.800 This isn't what enrages the Pharisees because Jesus identifying himself 653 00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:42.519 as the Angel of the Lord and as the face 654 00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:45.480 that spoke to Moses, and this makes them want to 655 00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:48.599 stone him. So those passages I think are very clear 656 00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:51.760 if you're familiar with the typology, and also if you 657 00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:53.800 go through a lot of these passages that I mentioned 658 00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:57.760 that are called the offen. These these are manifestations of 659 00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:03.239 distinctions in the Old Testament that refer both to the Father, 660 00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:06.320 to the Angel of Yahweh or the Angel of the Lord, 661 00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:10.599 and to the Spirit. And this is just a partial list. 662 00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:13.320 There's many many more. It gots smudged over here. But 663 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:15.519 if you go back to the Daniel debate. You can 664 00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:18.239 see all of those that I've referenced, and so what 665 00:38:18.280 --> 00:38:20.760 you get is a comprehensive in my view of presentation 666 00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:25.079 of differentiation in Yahweh throughout the Old Testament, that the 667 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:28.480 New Testament is consistent with even if you didn't believe 668 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:31.639 in Christianity. I think that modern Jews, for example that 669 00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:34.719 I mentioned in the debate, the Summer Text, the Seagull Text, 670 00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:39.599 the Schaeffer, they're all Jewish scholars. They're admitting that there 671 00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:42.760 is quite a bit of differentiation and distinction in the 672 00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:45.079 persona of Yahweh and the Old Testament. So it's not 673 00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:49.000 a strict unitarianism. So I'm just pointing out that whether 674 00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:52.719 you're a Christian who approaches the New Testament and the 675 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:56.039 name of Yahweh and how it's differentiated in the Old 676 00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:58.800 and New Testament, how it's applied to Christ, or whether 677 00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:02.920 you're a Jew who looking at for example, Daniel seven 678 00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:05.800 in the text where we see this one like a 679 00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:10.320 son of Man, these Jewish scholars are admitting that early 680 00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:17.599 Christianity is consistent with a quote conservative Judaism of that time. 681 00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:21.960 In other words, it's not a completely wholesale made at religion. 682 00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:23.679 In fact, they're admitting that. 683 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:28.280 Without believing it. They're admitting that the Jews, the early Christians, 684 00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:31.559 who were all Jews, were attempting to interpret and be 685 00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:36.039 consistent with the revelation in the Torah and the prophets 686 00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:39.480 that was not a strict unitarianism. And in fact, I 687 00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:44.159 think some Summers argues that the really strict unitarianism of 688 00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:48.039 Judaism doesn't really come about until my monodies. 689 00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:51.440 So that's also interestingly kind of parallel with. 690 00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:57.960 The rise of Islam and its strict version of unitarianism. 691 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:00.559 What is very interesting is dealing with all of these 692 00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:03.840 uh these issues that are presented when we deal with 693 00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:07.880 Islam and compared to to Abrahamic religion. You pointed out 694 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:09.679 that that there is a that there seems to be 695 00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:16.480 this this attitude, this behavior among traditionalist Muslims, which Dane 696 00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:21.960 Kikichu seems to be a representative of, of not of 697 00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:26.440 not really engaging with the the argument. And there is 698 00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:31.239 an older tradition of simply not asking questions, and that 699 00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:34.519 goes back to such a such a fundamental level. Indeed, 700 00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:36.880 I quickly want to point that out that is not 701 00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:39.519 just something we say. There is a there is a 702 00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:44.719 term in Arabic bila cave, which literally means without how, 703 00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:50.480 or which means without asking how? How, Yeah, without asking how? 704 00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:53.519 And and that is a that is a concept, a 705 00:40:53.639 --> 00:41:00.880 principle which became popularized by very early Muslim scholar and 706 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.599 which traditionalists, Muslims, literalists, legalists stood by for quite a 707 00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:09.760 long time when they dealt with, for example, how how 708 00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:13.639 allies described in the Qur'an, and that there are references 709 00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:17.119 to alli having body parts, but then also references to 710 00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:19.880 to a lot being just uh, you know, everywhere at 711 00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:21.880 all time, and this and that and and and Muslims 712 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:26.000 had problems figuring out how exactly they're supposed to make 713 00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:29.960 sense of these different interpretations, and the the early scholars 714 00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:32.639 came up with this, with this explanation or with this 715 00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:37.119 coping method, which was do not ask how, just read it, 716 00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:40.480 accept it, do not ask questions. And this is an 717 00:41:40.519 --> 00:41:45.280 actual concept. As said, it's called bila cave. And quite 718 00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:50.039 a few Muslim schools have stood by ed. Traditionalist schools 719 00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:55.960 today are still very much respecting that rule, some of them. 720 00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:58.079 Does this go back to like the hunt ball. 721 00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:01.480 Yeah, it's it's I think what a prominent opinion is 722 00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:03.639 that is that Ahmad hn Mad actually came up with 723 00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:07.480 that whole explore. It was his his idea that this 724 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:10.199 is what needs to be done in order to preserve 725 00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:17.320 proper belief and to avoid corrupting theology. So just take 726 00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:21.360 whatever the text says, do not question it, do not 727 00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:23.519 try to make sense of it, do not compare the 728 00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:27.880 apparent contradictions. It's none of your business. Just just accepted it. 729 00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:32.840 That's it. That's also consistent with the Quran saying, with 730 00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:36.400 the Quran saying for the true believers, when when they 731 00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:40.480 hear a last versus they they say, I hear and 732 00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:47.079 I obey. That's it. And another another instruction by Mohammad 733 00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:50.320 where he says that the devil comes to you and 734 00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:53.239 asks you questions about Allah and who created this and 735 00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:57.960 who created that. Whenever that happens, seek refuge with Allah 736 00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:02.639 and sees thinking about these things. So these are actually 737 00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:03.480 slamming instructions. 738 00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:06.840 Does that in that in that view? Does that also 739 00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:09.000 apply to the hot eath or just the Kuran. 740 00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:16.000 Hadith are more complicated, much more complicated. But I guess 741 00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:19.920 with the hadith, but what they do is they respect 742 00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:24.119 the tradition of figuring out what is and is not 743 00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:29.039 authentic in the hadiths, and then accepting whichever hadith is 744 00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:33.760 most supported, most stable if there are if there are 745 00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:39.760 differing reports only specific instants. But yeah, so there is 746 00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:43.840 for example, Haidith which says which I love, which says 747 00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:48.000 that a lot comes down every night at a specific 748 00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:51.639 time to the world, Yeah, to the lowest heaven, the 749 00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:54.000 heaven of the earth, and stays there to listen to 750 00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:56.039 all the prayers, and then he goes back again. And 751 00:43:56.119 --> 00:43:58.280 when do you actually think about that very deeply? That 752 00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:03.599 doesn't make any sense because when exactly, how exactly would 753 00:44:03.639 --> 00:44:06.920 that work, considering that it is always night somewhere and. 754 00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:11.880 They are just and also, I mean, this is kind 755 00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:16.400 of that point about the shins and the above the throne. 756 00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:21.880 These are spatial locations, and you know, if we're supposed 757 00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:24.039 to believe in tall heed, that's not possible. And so 758 00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:25.280 we're sort of forced. 759 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:26.800 Into a position then of. 760 00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:35.159 Making analogies saying, oh, this just represents various attributes and powers, right, 761 00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:37.639 But then when we do that, we're now moving into 762 00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:41.559 the domain of philosophical explanations and analogical predication. 763 00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:43.960 And if we're gonna do analogical predication. 764 00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:46.320 Then we have to square that with the text that 765 00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:48.840 says that there's absolutely nothing in. 766 00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:50.199 Creation that's like a lot. 767 00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:53.280 So you can't have both of those things, right, you 768 00:44:53.320 --> 00:44:55.679 can't have analogical predication. And for those that don't know, 769 00:44:57.039 --> 00:45:00.239 predication by analogy means predication on the basis of likeness 770 00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:00.880 and similarity. 771 00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:04.599 Right. So God is a judge. 772 00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:07.639 In the way that a virtuous human being is a 773 00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:11.800 righteous judge. Right, so he judges between cases. God judges, right, 774 00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:15.519 a father loves his son, God loves us in an 775 00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:18.119 analogous way. It's an analogy between the love of father 776 00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:20.719 and a son and God's love for us. Just this 777 00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:24.599 is just throughout history of theology. But in the Middle Ages, 778 00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:29.360 analogical predication is just predicating on the basis of similarity 779 00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:32.519 and likeness. But you see the Koran's already said there's 780 00:45:32.679 --> 00:45:37.480 no likeness at all between Allah and anything created. But 781 00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:41.559 then we have all these names which are predicates, right, Allah, 782 00:45:41.639 --> 00:45:45.719 the merciful, the righteous judge. And then we have these 783 00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:52.360 attribute or these qualities that are predicated like shin, like 784 00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:55.840 spatial location. So they have to be explained. Then at 785 00:45:55.880 --> 00:45:57.840 the same time as saying but there is no such 786 00:45:57.880 --> 00:46:01.679 thing as analogical predication. Oh but there is analogical predication, 787 00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:05.320 and then they just sort of talk around what that means. 788 00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:07.239 Right, Yeah, this I've had. 789 00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:09.400 I brought this up to pretty much every Muslim of 790 00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:12.760 debated except for Daniel. I didn't bring up to Daniel, 791 00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:14.480 but all the other ones that brought it up, and 792 00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:17.559 it's just like, well, it's not saying that all is 793 00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:20.079 like creatures. It's saying that all is like this or 794 00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:23.039 that power. And it's like, okay, well is the power 795 00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:27.320 that you're talking about concept in your head? Okay, but 796 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:29.960 that's a creature, right, the concept that you're have in 797 00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:32.639 your head of Allah's hand and all as you know, 798 00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:37.000 movement or those are created things in your view, and 799 00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:40.280 you're saying that they are descriptors or the what is 800 00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:41.639 the as she had said. 801 00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:42.760 They signify the divine? 802 00:46:43.239 --> 00:46:46.360 Well, to signify the divine is to say that this 803 00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:51.639 is a created sign symbol. That's symbology. That's analogical predication. 804 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:55.280 So how if there's no if all is not like 805 00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:57.360 any creature, is there analogical predication? 806 00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:00.320 You see? 807 00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:06.719 This is sah It's forty forty two to eleven it's 808 00:47:06.760 --> 00:47:07.119 not long. 809 00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:08.360 I'll read it. It says. 810 00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:14.480 The originator of the heavens and earth, he is appointed 811 00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:17.760 for you, mates among yourselves, and is appointed mates amongst 812 00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:21.840 the cattle. He multiplies you thereby, and not is like 813 00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:26.199 unto him. Unto him ex me. Yet he is the 814 00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:29.320 hero and the seer. So those are analogies. To hear 815 00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:33.320 and to see are analogous to human activities. Right, So 816 00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:35.199 we're saying that all I hear is and all I sees, 817 00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:38.360 but not as a man sees, not as a man hears. 818 00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:40.880 But not only that, here's the problem. Unto him belongs 819 00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:43.679 to the keys of heaven and earth. He comprehends and 820 00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:45.400 strange provision for whomever he will. 821 00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:47.960 He has prescribed that. 822 00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:51.880 There's excuse me out, let me go back a little bit. 823 00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:56.079 It was verse eleven. He multiplies you thereby, but there 824 00:47:56.119 --> 00:47:57.719 is nothing like unto him. 825 00:47:58.079 --> 00:47:58.800 Yeah, that was the text. 826 00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:01.920 I was, excuse me, keep reading. But and then you're 827 00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:04.440 notice in the notes, if you have the study, the 828 00:48:04.519 --> 00:48:07.039 study current, they talk about this discussion of nothing being 829 00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:09.880 like unto him. And I think there's another one too, 830 00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:12.199 which talks in this way. I forget which one it is. 831 00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:14.639 But the point being is that if there's nothing like 832 00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:16.960 unto him. This is I think called tanzi t A 833 00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:21.719 and z i h the doctrine of absolute dissimilarity between 834 00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:25.840 online creatures. If there's absolute dissimilarity, then we can't be 835 00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:29.559 using these predicates like hearing seeing movement. 836 00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:37.360 Yeah, the issue is if you just if you already 837 00:48:37.719 --> 00:48:41.800 begin to analyze the things that the Quran says and 838 00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:46.880 point out the obvious problem here, you slowly approach a 839 00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:49.639 topic that has been plaguing the Muslim world in terms 840 00:48:49.639 --> 00:48:54.159 of theology for forever, from the very very beginning, and 841 00:48:54.519 --> 00:49:00.000 that is still around and over which branches of Muslims, 842 00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:04.760 schools of Islam have been denouncing each other and calling 843 00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:08.519 each other disbelievers and even sentencing each other to death 844 00:49:08.599 --> 00:49:10.119 and persecuting each other. 845 00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:12.440 And you're saying, specifically over this question of like the 846 00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:15.079 hand and the placement over the throne. 847 00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:16.480 This is one of the questions. So one of the 848 00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:20.440 questions that caused such a huge mess and still does 849 00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:30.920 is that the body parts the attribute to the specific 850 00:49:31.039 --> 00:49:34.679 descriptions of a law, and how you can reconcile them 851 00:49:34.760 --> 00:49:37.800 with the fact that there is nothing like Allah, and 852 00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:40.559 how much, how far you can think about them. And 853 00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:43.920 this is actually a very funny thing. I grew up 854 00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:49.599 in a very religious household, and stuff like this was 855 00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:53.079 hammered into my head all the time from all sides, 856 00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:59.760 and I always had trouble understanding that there is nothing 857 00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:01.880 like a lot and I cannot even imagine it. I'm 858 00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:04.360 not supposed to. I cannot think about it. I cannot 859 00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:08.199 imagine it. But then I'm also given these conflicting descriptions 860 00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:11.320 of what a lot does, at what time and how 861 00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:14.639 he will appear, and I'm like, okay, I just it 862 00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:17.639 doesn't make sense. I can't reconcile it. And I might 863 00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:21.199 have had this issue as simply somebody who witnesses these 864 00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:24.159 these descriptions of our law and who doesn't study further. 865 00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:27.280 But this has been an issue from the very beginnings 866 00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:32.840 of Islamic history. And there have been a traditionalists who 867 00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:35.159 has said, stuck to the whole idea that you should 868 00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:38.320 not question, because if you question, then you will cause problems. 869 00:50:38.840 --> 00:50:41.679 And there have been the others who are basically the 870 00:50:41.719 --> 00:50:47.199 evidence of specifically that the mainstream Muslims were of the 871 00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:51.639 idea that Allah is up there, and we have certain 872 00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:55.159 things that are described about him, but we are not 873 00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:58.280 supposed to really think about that. Those things may be 874 00:50:58.679 --> 00:51:01.679 metaphorical or literally, we do not know. We don't think 875 00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:05.840 about that. Uh. And then there are those the mysticists 876 00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:10.280 who go further and to say Allah is probably up 877 00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:13.679 there wherever that is. But that's it. We're not going 878 00:51:13.719 --> 00:51:17.599 to go into anything else. Everything about him can only 879 00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:22.039 be metaphorical. Uh. And we leave it at that. And 880 00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:24.519 then there are others who go to the extreme. And 881 00:51:25.239 --> 00:51:28.159 actually my parents were kind of part of that, and 882 00:51:28.199 --> 00:51:33.480 they were like in such an extreme form of mysticism 883 00:51:33.599 --> 00:51:36.239 where they deal with all of this mess simply by 884 00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:40.599 saying Allah is not in any direction. It is wrong 885 00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:42.639 to say All is up there, all that. That was 886 00:51:42.679 --> 00:51:48.440 the Islamic tradition. Always He's everywhere, all at once, very 887 00:51:48.440 --> 00:51:53.639 close to you, within you, even to certain any certain understanding. 888 00:51:54.159 --> 00:51:57.360 And there is no way that you can possibly imagine 889 00:51:57.440 --> 00:52:00.239 or even describe him. The only way he can be 890 00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:02.760 described is in the Quran, and we only understand that 891 00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:06.320 entirely metaphorically. So it's just a huge mess. And all 892 00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:10.360 of these perspectives are not just perspectives that sit at 893 00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:12.599 a table and think, okay, you make sense, Yeah, you 894 00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:14.960 make sense, Okay, I disagree with you. No, they actually 895 00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:18.800 fought each other and killed each other over these over 896 00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:22.639 these problems, over these disagreements, and that is just one 897 00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:25.880 of those issues. It's the location of our law, the 898 00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:29.960 body parts, and what our lie is like. It's whether 899 00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.559 the Quran is an eternal part of our law or not, 900 00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:37.000 whether it came into existence through his speech exactly as 901 00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:39.639 it is or not. All of these things were issues 902 00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:44.239 of major contention that Muslims truly sentence each other to 903 00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:45.440 death and still kind of. 904 00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:50.719 Yeah, this is odd because you know, in Christianity, for example, 905 00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:54.280 in the fourth century, there's a really intense debate that's 906 00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:58.599 kind of analogous to the debate that occurs in the 907 00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:02.199 Middle Ages between Jews and Christians and Muslims over naming God. 908 00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:06.719 And this is the fourth century controversy that the Cappadocians, 909 00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:09.960 this is Basil and the two Gregory's were very important 910 00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:12.320 to Orthodox theology. They had a debate with a guy 911 00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:14.760 named Unomius, and a big part of that debate was 912 00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:17.960 over how and in what ways we can name and 913 00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:20.599 predicate of God. And the only reason I bring that 914 00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:25.280 up is because it's interesting that in other words, if 915 00:53:25.400 --> 00:53:30.519 Islam is the correct next revelation, so to speak, after 916 00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:38.440 Judaism or whatever they think is or are, then it's 917 00:53:38.440 --> 00:53:44.800 almost like there's no cognizance of a prior, intense, nuanced 918 00:53:44.840 --> 00:53:49.000 discussion of this very question of predicating of God. So 919 00:53:49.039 --> 00:53:52.039 it's like, if you were the new revelation, it seems 920 00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:54.960 like you would at least have an understanding of the 921 00:53:55.000 --> 00:53:59.760 previous Jewish Christian discussions and debates over naming God. 922 00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:01.559 Does that makes sense what I'm saying? 923 00:54:01.559 --> 00:54:04.719 Like, in other words, Basil and the Cavedocians have this 924 00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:07.360 debate with Eunomius, who's the earlier unit. He's like a 925 00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:11.719 Unitarians in the sense of Islam or Judaism in the 926 00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:15.639 Middle Ages, and the debate is over whether the names 927 00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:20.719 that we say of God are unifical, equivocal, or analogous. 928 00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:24.360 A unifical term is one in which there's an exact 929 00:54:24.440 --> 00:54:28.079 same meaning between the two the two reference, right. So 930 00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:33.159 for example, if we said God's love is identical to 931 00:54:33.519 --> 00:54:37.679 the sense in which man's love, you know, father son love, 932 00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:43.119 that would be unifical predication. And Eunomius, who was the 933 00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:46.280 radical unitarian of in the days of Basil, and the 934 00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:51.039 Gregory's he believed in unifical predication. Equivocal predication would be 935 00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:54.679 what Islam has, which is that there's no similarity between 936 00:54:55.159 --> 00:54:59.960 when I say God has justice towards us, there's no 937 00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:03.719 similarity between that justice and you know, human law courts 938 00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:09.440 and their creative justice. Analogical predication, which is again what 939 00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:15.079 the Kappadocians and Christian theology wholesale adopts. I would argue 940 00:55:15.079 --> 00:55:17.039 from the earliest days, I think you could find it 941 00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:21.639 in the Old and New Testament itself. It continues clearly 942 00:55:21.639 --> 00:55:25.559 into this controversy and the councils, which Daniel, for whatever reason, 943 00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:28.280 wasn't familiar with what councils are and what they are 944 00:55:28.320 --> 00:55:31.599 about what they mean. He thinks that they're just new revelations, 945 00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:35.159 kind of like new voices of the Holy Spirit or 946 00:55:35.159 --> 00:55:38.320 something like that. That's not what councils are. But the 947 00:55:38.360 --> 00:55:41.519 point is just that this is already a really well known, 948 00:55:41.559 --> 00:55:47.199 intense debate for centuries in Christianity. When Islam arises the 949 00:55:47.239 --> 00:55:52.639 points that you're making about the rise of not questioning 950 00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:56.679 or naming or explaining the hands of God or Allah 951 00:55:56.760 --> 00:56:00.599 or the Allah season. Here's don't ask what that is. 952 00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:04.760 It's just ironic because this debate has already happened. If 953 00:56:04.760 --> 00:56:07.199 you're the continuation of the prior revelation, why is there 954 00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:11.400 no cognizance of that whole discussion? And not only that, 955 00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:16.480 it's like, maybe I'm not worrying this, Well, do you 956 00:56:16.599 --> 00:56:19.639 understand what I'm saying? Yeah? I think it's it's similar 957 00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:21.599 to the point we were making about that the Quran 958 00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:25.039 seems to not even understand what Christianity, whether you think 959 00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:28.440 it's true or not, it doesn't understand what the trinity was. Right, 960 00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:31.239 there's like a trinity in the Quran which includes Mary. Right, 961 00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:34.880 it's like they thought that the trinity included Mary. It doesn't, 962 00:56:35.320 --> 00:56:39.639 never did. But likewise, it's like there was no conception 963 00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:43.880 of what the previous discussions of predication predicating of God 964 00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:47.719 were and so it's almost like bypassing that and saying, well, 965 00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:51.079 Allah's nothing like creation, and that's how it's So it's 966 00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:56.320 it's all, you know, equivocal predication. But it's like, but 967 00:56:56.400 --> 00:57:00.760 throughout your book there's analogical predication, so how could it 968 00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:01.320 be equivocal? 969 00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:06.159 Yeah? Yeah, the reference to the trinity and the Churan 970 00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:09.840 not understanding what It is actually a very fascinating one 971 00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:12.039 that I made a video on very early on when 972 00:57:12.039 --> 00:57:16.679 I started making uh these critical videos. It has the 973 00:57:16.760 --> 00:57:20.400 Quran is different understandings. Uh, there are different interpretations of 974 00:57:20.400 --> 00:57:25.159 what Christians actually believe in. But in one of those instances, Uh, 975 00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:27.800 Jay is not making this up. The Koran actually does 976 00:57:28.039 --> 00:57:32.519 say so. It describes a supposed fantasy conversation in the 977 00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:37.039 future after after everything dies and is resurrected, between Allah 978 00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:43.760 and Jesus, where Allah asks Jesus, did you say to 979 00:57:43.880 --> 00:57:48.480 the people, take me and my mother is deities besides Allah, 980 00:57:48.639 --> 00:57:51.519 and Jesus will say no, I did not, I would 981 00:57:51.639 --> 00:57:55.559 never say that. Where so it looks like the Quran 982 00:57:55.679 --> 00:58:01.760 is they're arguing against this clearly, clearly a great belief 983 00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:06.559 among Christians that that Allah is consists of three, which 984 00:58:06.639 --> 00:58:14.840 is Allah, Jesus and Mother Mary. And it's just it's 985 00:58:14.840 --> 00:58:18.119 it's it's very surprising that when you find that out, 986 00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:21.920 that the Qur'an seems to not understand what Christians are 987 00:58:21.960 --> 00:58:25.800 to believe and then deals with a completely irrelevant belief 988 00:58:25.840 --> 00:58:28.599 that no Christian actually represents. And if you bring if 989 00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:32.440 you bring this problem up today, Uh, they will try 990 00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:34.760 to explain that a way by saying, well, okay, there 991 00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:37.639 there are there were probably some Christian sects in that 992 00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:39.679 time who did have such a belief, and this is 993 00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:43.920 specifically addressing them, or or they will say this is 994 00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:48.760 a reference to well, to Christians venerating her way too 995 00:58:48.920 --> 00:58:51.000 much and turning her into a god. But that's clearly 996 00:58:51.079 --> 00:58:51.920 not the case there. 997 00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:55.360 Well, first of all, we would need to know what's 998 00:58:55.400 --> 00:58:58.719 the evidence that there was a historic group that did 999 00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:01.880 deify and put Mary as a member of the Trinity. 1000 00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:04.159 I mean, I suppose that's possible, but I've. 1001 00:59:03.960 --> 00:59:04.719 Never heard of this. 1002 00:59:05.480 --> 00:59:09.920 But secondly, even if that was the case, why would 1003 00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:14.320 you be addressing some tiny fringe group that had no continuity? 1004 00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:18.079 Is basically irrelevant, right, I mean, wouldn't you want to 1005 00:59:18.119 --> 00:59:21.840 address the actual positions? That's what That's what I'm trying 1006 00:59:21.880 --> 00:59:25.280 to say, right, And it's the same point with analogical predication, 1007 00:59:25.400 --> 00:59:28.440 like when you want to at least address or explain, Oh, 1008 00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:30.239 you know, the Christians when they had. 1009 00:59:30.039 --> 00:59:32.760 Their debates with the Eunomians and and you know what. 1010 00:59:32.760 --> 00:59:37.239 I mean, and they made their great mistake on analogical predication, 1011 00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:40.039 as Basil and the Gregory's did who who are the 1012 00:59:40.199 --> 00:59:43.079 you know, the great profits of the early like, there's 1013 00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:44.159 no knowledge of any of this. 1014 00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:47.880 Is that's actually, I mean, that's a very big problem. 1015 00:59:47.960 --> 00:59:50.840 It's I have to be very honest. It is when 1016 00:59:50.840 --> 00:59:56.880 I started getting out of Islam, and during that whole process, 1017 00:59:56.920 --> 01:00:02.360 I was trying to further understand and Christianity and Judaism. 1018 01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:06.760 So I started reading, reading, reading the Bible, and I 1019 01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:11.199 noticed that it was completely foreign to me. And the 1020 01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:13.800 same thing is so this is a problem that Muslims 1021 01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:18.599 in general deal with. To them, the Bible, Abrahamic belief 1022 01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:21.920 is entirely foreign because all they know about it is 1023 01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:26.719 stuff that comes from the Quran and from Muslim tradition. 1024 01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:30.000 Other than that, and that stuff what comes from the 1025 01:00:30.079 --> 01:00:34.000 Quran is incredibly limited and very ignorant because there is 1026 01:00:34.039 --> 01:00:37.960 no continuation, because the Quran is simply its own product, 1027 01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:41.559 which emerged in the seventh century. It makes references to 1028 01:00:42.360 --> 01:00:46.199 the Bible, to Judaism and Christianity and to their beliefs, 1029 01:00:46.519 --> 01:00:50.760 but it is completely absent from the vast knowledge that 1030 01:00:51.199 --> 01:00:56.519 comes with the Bible. So the Quran Islam claims to 1031 01:00:57.639 --> 01:01:01.679 be the final message, claims to contry knew what was before, 1032 01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:05.239 but then completely disregards and gets rid of all of 1033 01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:08.320 the knowledge that is in the Bible, which is abundant 1034 01:01:08.320 --> 01:01:11.639 in comparison to the Quran, and then moves on with that. 1035 01:01:11.840 --> 01:01:15.800 And then, as you said, has no understanding of all 1036 01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:18.599 of the problems that are already addressed in Christianity and Judaism, 1037 01:01:18.760 --> 01:01:21.400 has no understanding of so many things mentioned in the Bible, 1038 01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:25.360 has no connection to Jewish and Christian history and theology 1039 01:01:25.519 --> 01:01:30.679 that was already centuries old in terms of Christianity, that 1040 01:01:31.039 --> 01:01:31.960 is a huge problement. 1041 01:01:32.360 --> 01:01:35.800 Yeah, I would say to better formulate what I was 1042 01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:39.679 trying to say the way you put it more concisely. There, 1043 01:01:41.199 --> 01:01:46.760 if the Quran and Islam were the correct, final or 1044 01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:51.239 new revelation, I would expect there to be an addressing 1045 01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:57.760 of the specifics of where the previous system or systems 1046 01:01:59.079 --> 01:02:03.199 got these things wrong. So what we see is actually 1047 01:02:03.519 --> 01:02:08.679 no familiarity or consistent knowledge of very precise, very well 1048 01:02:08.719 --> 01:02:12.079 known doctrines theologians and people. 1049 01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:20.440 I can think of one issue, which is Christology and Jesus. 1050 01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:29.400 Early Christian history has a very prominent history of discussing it. 1051 01:02:29.519 --> 01:02:32.239 Coming to a proper understanding of the nature of Jesus 1052 01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:37.760 uh the crucifixion and the resurrection. I mean that is 1053 01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:41.280 a that's a core issue. It is the core, It 1054 01:02:41.320 --> 01:02:44.920 is the fundament, is the fundamental the fundamentals of Christianity 1055 01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:51.760 is Jesus comes, preaches, does many things, and then very important, 1056 01:02:51.840 --> 01:02:55.440 he is crucified, and then he is resurrected. And that 1057 01:02:55.480 --> 01:02:58.239 resurrection is supposed to play a great role in terms 1058 01:02:58.239 --> 01:03:01.719 of what Christians believe. It Islam is supposed to come 1059 01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:06.760 and correct the Christians because they were wrong about Jesus 1060 01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:10.199 about how they explained his crucifixion and resurrection. But it 1061 01:03:10.239 --> 01:03:12.639 doesn't do anything about it at all. It doesn't even 1062 01:03:12.679 --> 01:03:17.000 address the resurrection. It just all it says about the 1063 01:03:17.079 --> 01:03:20.280 death of Jesus is and they did not crucify him, 1064 01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:24.960 nor did they kill him. But it was made to 1065 01:03:25.519 --> 01:03:28.719 it was made to appear that way to them, and 1066 01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:32.719 that's it. Why wouldn't why wouldn't the Quran address this 1067 01:03:32.800 --> 01:03:35.559 whole giant elephant in the room. If the Christians are 1068 01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:39.400 indeed wrong, if they corrupted their own beliefs, if Christianity 1069 01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:43.119 is a giant misunderstanding, as the Quran claims, why would 1070 01:03:43.159 --> 01:03:45.960 it not deal with Christology? Why would it not deal 1071 01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:50.280 with what exactly happened after Jesus died. With the resurrection, 1072 01:03:50.320 --> 01:03:53.800 it doesn't do any of these things and therefore leaves 1073 01:03:53.840 --> 01:04:01.639 a huge discussion completely unanswered. Just as DANIELI Kikachu does says, well, 1074 01:04:01.719 --> 01:04:03.800 just look at it, and whatever agrees with Islam is true, 1075 01:04:03.800 --> 01:04:05.679 and whatever it doesn't just false. That's it. 1076 01:04:05.800 --> 01:04:09.079 Well, and I mean it was like all of what 1077 01:04:09.119 --> 01:04:12.239 you just said is bypassed by you. Just look and 1078 01:04:12.280 --> 01:04:16.079 see with your eyes, Okay. 1079 01:04:15.880 --> 01:04:18.079 Well can I not? I could appeal to the same thing. 1080 01:04:18.159 --> 01:04:20.039 Well, when I look and see with my eyes, it 1081 01:04:20.440 --> 01:04:22.480 can it confirms my view? Right, So I mean that's 1082 01:04:22.519 --> 01:04:25.599 really just a non answer. But yeah, I mean this 1083 01:04:25.679 --> 01:04:27.880 is a great point about the resurrection. I mean, you know, 1084 01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:31.719 even if you didn't believe in Christianity, you would at 1085 01:04:31.760 --> 01:04:35.199 least want to understand, Well, what is their view? Why 1086 01:04:35.199 --> 01:04:37.320 do they think that, you know, this is so important? 1087 01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:40.079 What is the resurrection have to do with the fall 1088 01:04:40.119 --> 01:04:43.800 of man? What about what about all these prophecies, for example, 1089 01:04:44.920 --> 01:04:48.719 in the Psalms of David, that we see as predictions 1090 01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:51.679 and prophecies of the Messiah, his descent to Hades, and 1091 01:04:51.679 --> 01:04:54.880 his resurrection. Now, maybe you don't believe that, but it 1092 01:04:54.880 --> 01:04:59.039 would be better. It would make sense to understand, you know, 1093 01:04:59.559 --> 01:05:02.599 like here is what they believe, and you know this 1094 01:05:02.719 --> 01:05:04.599 is why it is false, you know, but we don't 1095 01:05:04.639 --> 01:05:07.280 get that. That's what's amazing is that there's not even 1096 01:05:07.320 --> 01:05:09.800 an understanding of what the position is. And I would 1097 01:05:09.880 --> 01:05:12.800 I feel like if this was a divine revelation, they 1098 01:05:12.800 --> 01:05:16.880 would at least, you know, God would understand what the 1099 01:05:17.039 --> 01:05:20.760 errors were, you see, and they would be corrected. But 1100 01:05:20.920 --> 01:05:23.960 it doesn't even explain what the erroneous position is. If 1101 01:05:23.960 --> 01:05:26.039 I could misunderstand the erroneous position. 1102 01:05:26.920 --> 01:05:29.320 Yeah, there's actually a very interesting coron verse that I 1103 01:05:29.320 --> 01:05:33.119 could quickly want to go to, and I might put 1104 01:05:33.159 --> 01:05:36.760 it on the screen here because I wanted to bring 1105 01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:40.360 that up. It's actually very relevant to the very point. 1106 01:05:42.239 --> 01:05:49.800 Let me share this one here, so Kara three, verse 1107 01:05:50.039 --> 01:05:53.840 fifty five. I'm appealing to all the different translations here, 1108 01:05:53.840 --> 01:05:56.840 but I'll just take the first one. Soayga international. What 1109 01:05:56.960 --> 01:06:02.440 it says mentioned when Alas said, Oh Jesus, indeed, I 1110 01:06:02.480 --> 01:06:06.519 will take you and raise you to myself and purify 1111 01:06:06.760 --> 01:06:10.840 you from those who disbelieve, and make those who follow 1112 01:06:10.920 --> 01:06:15.079 you superior to those who disbelieve until the day of resurrection. 1113 01:06:15.880 --> 01:06:17.920 Then to me is your return, and I will judge 1114 01:06:17.920 --> 01:06:20.159 between you concerning that in which you used to differ. 1115 01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:26.000 Very very interesting point, very interesting verse here, So a 1116 01:06:26.039 --> 01:06:31.039 lot told Jesus that he will raise him and purify 1117 01:06:31.119 --> 01:06:35.559 him from those who denied him, while making those who 1118 01:06:35.599 --> 01:06:41.039 followed him and believed him superior until the day of judgment. 1119 01:06:41.920 --> 01:06:44.440 Interesting but how exactly does that work? So who were 1120 01:06:44.480 --> 01:06:48.039 those people who followed Jesus, Who were the people who 1121 01:06:49.880 --> 01:06:54.559 who acknowledged him, who believed him? And which group exactly 1122 01:06:54.639 --> 01:06:58.079 has been has been made superior since then? And which 1123 01:06:58.079 --> 01:07:01.039 group will be made superior from then till the day 1124 01:07:01.039 --> 01:07:01.599 of judgment. 1125 01:07:03.320 --> 01:07:05.920 Yeah, I'm actually baffled by this. What what what is 1126 01:07:05.920 --> 01:07:07.000 their explanation of this? 1127 01:07:07.119 --> 01:07:10.079 I don't understand the explanation I can tell you will 1128 01:07:10.119 --> 01:07:13.719 be well, this is actually a reference to the Muslims. 1129 01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:17.239 It doesn't make much sense. 1130 01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:19.199 But what do they think the raising is? 1131 01:07:20.199 --> 01:07:23.280 Well, that he was just you know, he was raised 1132 01:07:23.280 --> 01:07:26.880 to heaven as a as a prophet, and he will 1133 01:07:26.880 --> 01:07:29.079 stay there and he will come back one day. And 1134 01:07:29.119 --> 01:07:31.239 when he comes back, he will then announce that all 1135 01:07:31.239 --> 01:07:34.519 the Christians and all the people who had these corrupt 1136 01:07:34.519 --> 01:07:38.920 beliefs went astray, and that the Muslims are actually the 1137 01:07:38.960 --> 01:07:40.840 true believers, and then he will come and fight for 1138 01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:44.119 the Muslims and abolish the cross, and break the cross 1139 01:07:44.280 --> 01:07:48.960 and and do things like that and basically becoming Muslim Jesus. 1140 01:07:48.960 --> 01:07:51.480 That is their explanation. But if you read it on 1141 01:07:51.519 --> 01:07:54.320 the surface, it just looks like it pretty much improves 1142 01:07:54.519 --> 01:07:55.599 of the questions. 1143 01:07:55.880 --> 01:07:59.199 It also it reminds me of I forget exactly where 1144 01:07:59.199 --> 01:08:03.920 it is, but samr Moon had referenced a there's actually 1145 01:08:03.960 --> 01:08:06.599 just sections of the Gospel of John that are kind 1146 01:08:06.599 --> 01:08:09.960 of cribbed, you know. I'm talking about like there's like 1147 01:08:10.519 --> 01:08:13.000 several verses that are basically just copied and pasted into 1148 01:08:13.079 --> 01:08:17.399 the Koran. Oh yeah, yeah, which is because they typically 1149 01:08:17.439 --> 01:08:19.800 want to say the Gospel of John is fraudulent. It 1150 01:08:19.880 --> 01:08:23.319 was like, wait a minute, aren't some of the passages 1151 01:08:23.359 --> 01:08:25.800 actually just copied and pasted into the Koran? Well, those 1152 01:08:25.800 --> 01:08:27.880 are the ones that are not corupped. Oh okay. 1153 01:08:28.479 --> 01:08:32.760 You can also find Muslims occasionally give some references from 1154 01:08:33.000 --> 01:08:35.079 the Gospel of John in order to prove that Muhammad 1155 01:08:35.159 --> 01:08:39.600 was mentioned in the gospels, or that Jesus prayed like 1156 01:08:39.640 --> 01:08:43.279 a Muslim or things like that, which is a very selective, 1157 01:08:44.680 --> 01:08:46.960 dishonest approach. They will say, they will take that, they 1158 01:08:46.960 --> 01:08:50.920 will take the part, for example, where Jesus throws himself 1159 01:08:50.920 --> 01:08:53.520 on the ground and pray and prays, and they will say, look, 1160 01:08:53.760 --> 01:08:57.119 he prayed exactly like Muslims pray. But that's not he 1161 01:08:57.159 --> 01:08:59.399 didn't do a ritual prayer there. That's not the only 1162 01:08:59.399 --> 01:09:02.600 prayer date according to the Gospel. So that's a very 1163 01:09:02.720 --> 01:09:03.760 very interesting. 1164 01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:05.880 Well, it's like that text in Deuteronomy that they use 1165 01:09:06.000 --> 01:09:09.880 about I'll raise a prophet amongst your brethren, and you know, 1166 01:09:09.960 --> 01:09:12.319 you know, Christianity obviously has always seen that as a 1167 01:09:12.319 --> 01:09:14.279 prophecy of the Messiah. 1168 01:09:14.439 --> 01:09:15.279 You find many. 1169 01:09:15.159 --> 01:09:17.800 Church fathers prior to the rise of Islam citing that 1170 01:09:17.840 --> 01:09:20.960 as a text about the Messiah. Conceivably, Jews might also 1171 01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:27.760 cite it as a potential Messianic text. But the for Muslims, 1172 01:09:27.800 --> 01:09:30.359 that's a prediction of Mohammad. And and I didn't really 1173 01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:32.399 get to go into this, but when it was mentioned 1174 01:09:32.399 --> 01:09:36.640 in the debate, the argument was, well, this is about Muhammad. 1175 01:09:36.680 --> 01:09:38.439 And I said, well, but it says amongst your brethren, 1176 01:09:38.560 --> 01:09:40.840 so I'm pretty sure Mohammad wasn't a Jew. And they said, oh, 1177 01:09:40.880 --> 01:09:44.479 but they can all be brethren, because everybody is a 1178 01:09:44.520 --> 01:09:46.039 brethren all the way back to Abraham. 1179 01:09:46.079 --> 01:09:47.279 And I'm like, well, but wait a minute. 1180 01:09:47.359 --> 01:09:50.920 Genesis is cast out the slave woman, and so they're 1181 01:09:51.000 --> 01:09:54.039 not actually brethren, but in the Jewish sense, they're not 1182 01:09:54.079 --> 01:09:56.560 bresent brethren. That's the sense that we would be getting 1183 01:09:56.600 --> 01:09:59.520 from Deuterom the eighteen, not the Koronic sense. It would 1184 01:09:59.520 --> 01:10:00.840 be the Jewish sense of brethren. 1185 01:10:01.479 --> 01:10:03.760 What's funny is one last point. 1186 01:10:03.840 --> 01:10:05.560 The other thing that's funny about that, which is that, 1187 01:10:05.680 --> 01:10:08.119 so wait a minute. If everybody is a brethren, then 1188 01:10:08.319 --> 01:10:11.960 Edomites are brethren, but no Jew would call an Edomite brethren. 1189 01:10:11.960 --> 01:10:14.399 They're the enemies of the Jews. But they have a 1190 01:10:14.399 --> 01:10:16.920 common They have just as much a lineage that's common 1191 01:10:17.039 --> 01:10:19.560 as what would be Hagartes. 1192 01:10:20.279 --> 01:10:22.840 It might be amazing to you the forms of a 1193 01:10:22.880 --> 01:10:25.479 responses that you can get from you to cope with 1194 01:10:25.479 --> 01:10:28.039 that problem, which is when they bring that up. I 1195 01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:31.359 even got the response, which was a ridiculous one when 1196 01:10:31.359 --> 01:10:33.840 I think about it again and again, which is that 1197 01:10:34.800 --> 01:10:37.760 it says your brethren, and that clearly means that it's 1198 01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:42.720 in reference to to the Ishmae alliance to the to 1199 01:10:42.800 --> 01:10:46.560 the others, because that's why it says brethren instead of 1200 01:10:46.760 --> 01:10:50.000 just saying from from you or your own tribe. 1201 01:10:50.119 --> 01:10:52.199 But no Jew is going to listen to an Ishmael. 1202 01:10:52.359 --> 01:10:53.079 That's the weird part. 1203 01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:56.640 It's like the rest of the rest of Deuteronomy assumes 1204 01:10:56.680 --> 01:10:58.880 that only a Jew is only going to listen to 1205 01:10:58.960 --> 01:10:59.319 a Jew. 1206 01:10:59.760 --> 01:11:02.960 Yeah, yeah, and that's the that's the whole problem. But 1207 01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:06.239 then there comes forth some guy in seventh century Arabia 1208 01:11:06.239 --> 01:11:11.880 who doesn't like his own culture and his own religious 1209 01:11:11.880 --> 01:11:14.840 beliefs and looks up to the Christians and Jews and things. 1210 01:11:14.880 --> 01:11:18.800 He's going to just start a message and claim that 1211 01:11:19.039 --> 01:11:21.640 the same God is speaking to him. And what's very 1212 01:11:21.640 --> 01:11:25.239 interesting is I actually put a thing together. A I 1213 01:11:25.279 --> 01:11:28.000 took out all of the references in the Quran to 1214 01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:31.600 Christians and Jews and put them in chronological order as 1215 01:11:31.600 --> 01:11:33.760 far as we know. And you can see very much 1216 01:11:34.520 --> 01:11:36.880 that in the beginning, it is just this very naive 1217 01:11:37.720 --> 01:11:40.079 approach to the Christians and Jews of like, oh, yeah, 1218 01:11:40.119 --> 01:11:42.840 you know, they're nice, they're good, they have true beliefs, 1219 01:11:43.279 --> 01:11:45.479 and you know, we are just like them, same source, 1220 01:11:45.640 --> 01:11:51.039 same guys, and then it increasingly becomes gets into disagreements 1221 01:11:51.039 --> 01:11:54.119 with them, and eventually at some point it comes to, Okay, 1222 01:11:54.159 --> 01:11:56.720 they have their beliefs, you have your belief and finally 1223 01:11:56.720 --> 01:11:59.319 it comes to they will accept your beliefs or else. 1224 01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:05.560 It's just a if everything, naive, ignorant approach from Muhammad 1225 01:12:05.560 --> 01:12:10.520 to Jewish and Christian beliefs. And and here we are 1226 01:12:10.760 --> 01:12:14.960 dealing with a religious group that actually claims to be 1227 01:12:15.079 --> 01:12:18.720 in possession of the true religion, yet one that is 1228 01:12:18.760 --> 01:12:22.760 completely disconnected and completely ignorant. And I actually want to 1229 01:12:22.800 --> 01:12:25.720 ask you a question about that. So, when you read 1230 01:12:26.000 --> 01:12:30.960 the Quran, when you began studying the Qur'an as somebody 1231 01:12:31.000 --> 01:12:35.000 who extensively studied the Bible, what is your what was 1232 01:12:35.039 --> 01:12:42.439 your impression of the Qur'an? Did it appear similar in 1233 01:12:44.479 --> 01:12:46.600 I don't know what was What was your impression in 1234 01:12:46.600 --> 01:12:47.720 comparison to your own? 1235 01:12:47.880 --> 01:12:52.840 My initial impression is not really different than where I'm 1236 01:12:52.880 --> 01:12:55.239 at now. It's just kind of like I've read more 1237 01:12:55.319 --> 01:12:59.039 text from scholars that I think really back up the 1238 01:12:59.079 --> 01:13:01.760 impression that I have, which is, you know, especially like 1239 01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:05.479 the Gabriel site Reynolds book where he goes through about 1240 01:13:06.039 --> 01:13:09.840 thirteen or fifteen I forget how many case studies where 1241 01:13:09.840 --> 01:13:14.039 he basically just compares the references in the Koran to 1242 01:13:14.640 --> 01:13:19.840 the biblical context from which they come, and then contrasts 1243 01:13:19.920 --> 01:13:26.079 and compares the narratives whether they make sense where they contradict, 1244 01:13:26.199 --> 01:13:29.359 and then the various Islamic explanations. So it's a really 1245 01:13:29.439 --> 01:13:33.560 good book from a person who I don't think he's 1246 01:13:34.159 --> 01:13:37.560 a Christian or a Muslim. He's just an academic. But 1247 01:13:37.640 --> 01:13:41.359 the text shows the ways that there have been attempts 1248 01:13:41.439 --> 01:13:44.199 to explain, and it also shows what was really helpful 1249 01:13:44.239 --> 01:13:47.680 to me all of the different extra canonical sources that 1250 01:13:47.840 --> 01:13:51.319 Islam also draws from. So I think you made a 1251 01:13:51.319 --> 01:13:52.800 great point when you and I were talking about this 1252 01:13:52.840 --> 01:13:54.680 the other day. You know, when you start getting into 1253 01:13:54.680 --> 01:13:57.039 the hadiths is where it becomes a lot clearer that 1254 01:13:57.319 --> 01:14:00.439 there's a lot of other influences here. So it's not 1255 01:14:00.600 --> 01:14:03.800 like you're just dealing with the Quran. You're also dealing 1256 01:14:03.840 --> 01:14:07.000 with about a bunch of world tradition which is kind 1257 01:14:07.039 --> 01:14:10.760 of collected and then it has to be scholarly kind 1258 01:14:10.800 --> 01:14:14.720 of feeded out as to how authoritative they are. But 1259 01:14:14.960 --> 01:14:17.960 those also apparently rely on a lot of myths and 1260 01:14:18.760 --> 01:14:21.760 narratives and stories, as the Quran does. And so when 1261 01:14:21.760 --> 01:14:24.359 I first started reading the Koran, my first impression was, 1262 01:14:25.399 --> 01:14:29.560 it's it sounds like the Bible, but it's like I 1263 01:14:29.680 --> 01:14:35.000 was detecting kind of like stories and references that they 1264 01:14:35.039 --> 01:14:39.319 didn't understand that are coupled together. And then your point 1265 01:14:39.359 --> 01:14:41.880 about the Hadiz, I think further backs that up. But 1266 01:14:42.479 --> 01:14:45.399 now I see, Okay, well, it's not just the infancy 1267 01:14:45.520 --> 01:14:49.800 narrative of Christ that you referenced as an extra canonical text. 1268 01:14:50.640 --> 01:14:52.600 It's also Cave. 1269 01:14:52.399 --> 01:14:55.960 Of Treasures, Life of Adam and Eve proto Evangelim of James. 1270 01:14:56.960 --> 01:14:59.399 It's all of the Sleepers of Ephesus. It's all these 1271 01:14:59.399 --> 01:15:02.960 other storiesries and traditions, some of which are also by 1272 01:15:02.960 --> 01:15:06.920 the way, telmudick. Which is odd because you know, uh 1273 01:15:07.720 --> 01:15:11.279 that that weird reference that Reynolds points out about how 1274 01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:17.199 the Sabbath that was a punishment, It's like, that's absolutely 1275 01:15:17.399 --> 01:15:20.479 totally foreign to everything that's in prior revelation. It's not 1276 01:15:20.520 --> 01:15:21.000 a punishment. 1277 01:15:21.039 --> 01:15:24.039 It goes back to Genesis, right, expand on it very quickly, 1278 01:15:24.119 --> 01:15:28.079 for yeah, you can quickly expand it if you want 1279 01:15:28.079 --> 01:15:28.680 to or I can. 1280 01:15:29.560 --> 01:15:31.359 No, I'll let you expand on it, because it was 1281 01:15:31.399 --> 01:15:35.039 just just a cap on my to summarize my point 1282 01:15:35.039 --> 01:15:37.319 there about the more that I would get into this, 1283 01:15:37.359 --> 01:15:39.399 the more I'm realizing, wait a minute, this is like 1284 01:15:39.720 --> 01:15:44.840 cribbed from earlier stuff, cobbled together, and what's cobbled together 1285 01:15:45.159 --> 01:15:48.800 is not actually coherent. But then it's the job of 1286 01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:52.039 the Islamic scholars to try to make this thing work. 1287 01:15:52.359 --> 01:15:53.479 That's what I get from it. 1288 01:15:53.800 --> 01:15:56.039 Yeah, yeah, So the point about the Sabbath in the 1289 01:15:56.079 --> 01:16:00.560 Quran is people who have looked into that or deeply 1290 01:16:00.640 --> 01:16:07.319 can pretty much I guess explain that better. But I 1291 01:16:07.640 --> 01:16:10.439 made a note a while ago here on that. But 1292 01:16:10.479 --> 01:16:14.920 the Quran basically, when it references to Sabbath, doesn't recognize 1293 01:16:14.920 --> 01:16:19.840 it as something that that is a fundamental or essential 1294 01:16:19.880 --> 01:16:25.359 part of of of biblical or Jewish belief. What it 1295 01:16:25.439 --> 01:16:29.720 basically says is that the Sabbath was just prescribed to 1296 01:16:29.800 --> 01:16:35.239 the Jews as as a punishment for their for their actions, 1297 01:16:35.239 --> 01:16:38.239 for their transgressions, and it was it was basically a 1298 01:16:38.239 --> 01:16:43.079 burden placed on them by Allah, which is why I 1299 01:16:43.119 --> 01:16:46.760 only they keep it. So that is that is and 1300 01:16:46.760 --> 01:16:49.800 then that's that's a very ridiculously ignorant. 1301 01:16:51.479 --> 01:16:54.680 I mean, it's very central to you know, the entirety 1302 01:16:54.680 --> 01:16:57.159 of the Torah goes back to Genesis as part of 1303 01:16:57.159 --> 01:17:00.680 the creation narrative. So it's it's almost like to think 1304 01:17:00.760 --> 01:17:05.680 that the Sabbath would be a punishment would be to 1305 01:17:05.680 --> 01:17:09.760 again completely misunderstand something very fundamental to Genesis, which is 1306 01:17:09.880 --> 01:17:17.039 the seven Days and the Sabbath. And in the the 1307 01:17:18.680 --> 01:17:22.600 Say Reynolds book, it's pages one, nine, ten, and eleven, 1308 01:17:22.800 --> 01:17:27.640 and you've got multiple Islamic scholars and people have tried 1309 01:17:27.680 --> 01:17:32.039 to explain this, and it's just all the different explanations 1310 01:17:32.039 --> 01:17:34.680 are kind, they're just they're amusing because when you see 1311 01:17:34.760 --> 01:17:39.359 the scholarly explanations, they're even they're not understanding what the 1312 01:17:39.479 --> 01:17:43.359 meaning was for the Jews and the Christians. So I 1313 01:17:43.359 --> 01:17:46.000 could understand if okay, so fine, you think it's wrong, 1314 01:17:46.600 --> 01:17:50.239 but at least understand how central this was to the 1315 01:17:50.319 --> 01:17:53.880 creation narrative and to the entirety the Old Testament. To 1316 01:17:53.960 --> 01:17:55.600 think that, as many of these scholars have. 1317 01:17:55.960 --> 01:17:57.840 Said, that it was a punishment from God, it. 1318 01:17:57.840 --> 01:18:01.640 Just shows an incoherence of not even understanding the narrative, 1319 01:18:01.760 --> 01:18:04.079 just like with other things that we talked about like 1320 01:18:04.159 --> 01:18:07.600 the Arc of the Covenant. They thought that because it 1321 01:18:07.680 --> 01:18:11.720 had the Seraphim on top of it as a box, 1322 01:18:11.920 --> 01:18:13.359 that it was a box that flew. 1323 01:18:14.079 --> 01:18:20.079 Yeah. So here's the reference we're talking about. In the Quran, 1324 01:18:20.199 --> 01:18:23.199 in chapter sixteen, verse one, and twenty four, it says, basically, 1325 01:18:24.199 --> 01:18:28.000 the Sabbath was only appointed for those who differed over it, 1326 01:18:28.159 --> 01:18:30.239 and indeed your Lord will judge between them on the 1327 01:18:30.319 --> 01:18:32.920 day of Resurrection concerning that of which they used to differ. 1328 01:18:33.039 --> 01:18:38.760 And it's further than recognized that the Jews were basically 1329 01:18:38.800 --> 01:18:42.479 transgressors over and over again, and the Sabbath was only 1330 01:18:42.560 --> 01:18:46.239 given to them because of their because of their of 1331 01:18:46.279 --> 01:18:49.640 their troubles and there their transgressions. 1332 01:18:49.680 --> 01:18:54.079 Yeah, and it's even you. You have this four forty seven. 1333 01:18:54.560 --> 01:18:55.680 You have been given the book. 1334 01:18:55.840 --> 01:18:58.960 Believe in what they have brought, what we have brought down, 1335 01:18:59.079 --> 01:19:02.680 which confirms which is already with you. Before we transform 1336 01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:05.800 the figures, turning them inside out, we curse you as 1337 01:19:05.840 --> 01:19:07.359 we curse the people of the Sabbath. 1338 01:19:09.479 --> 01:19:16.000 Yeah, and it's I don't know, it's just sometimes I 1339 01:19:16.000 --> 01:19:17.039 feel like it is very. 1340 01:19:16.880 --> 01:19:22.079 Hard to put into words the amounts of of ignorance 1341 01:19:22.119 --> 01:19:26.199 that the Quran brings to the Chable when it talks 1342 01:19:26.199 --> 01:19:31.359 about Abrahamic biblical beliefs, and to then claim that this 1343 01:19:31.439 --> 01:19:33.720 is the same God, the same source, it's just it's 1344 01:19:33.760 --> 01:19:34.359 just absurd. 1345 01:19:36.279 --> 01:19:39.640 Yeah, And and again, I mean, there's a lot of 1346 01:19:39.640 --> 01:19:42.920 different ways to approach this discussion, this debate. I mean, 1347 01:19:43.800 --> 01:19:49.399 one another example would be if you if you thought, 1348 01:19:49.399 --> 01:19:55.119 for example, that the Revelation to Jews and Christians was false. 1349 01:19:56.800 --> 01:19:59.640 One thing that's prevalent throughout the Old and the New 1350 01:19:59.680 --> 01:20:05.960 test is analogical predication. So if you're going to say 1351 01:20:06.159 --> 01:20:08.800 that was all wrong and we can't do analogical predication, 1352 01:20:08.880 --> 01:20:12.680 which conceivably you could have with many Islamic schools and 1353 01:20:12.720 --> 01:20:16.119 the denial and the teaching of Tanzi, then you would 1354 01:20:16.119 --> 01:20:20.760 need to again explain or at least understand that this 1355 01:20:21.199 --> 01:20:24.479 group four thousands of years, for centuries prior to Islam 1356 01:20:24.560 --> 01:20:27.600 with Christianity, you know, for six injuries, that they got 1357 01:20:27.600 --> 01:20:31.560 this big thing wrong. And again there's not even a 1358 01:20:31.560 --> 01:20:35.600 reference to So let me put it this way. There's 1359 01:20:35.720 --> 01:20:40.079 very sophisticated philosophical debates. Okay, here's a great book that's 1360 01:20:40.880 --> 01:20:43.279 just on this very topic I recommend, And this is 1361 01:20:43.279 --> 01:20:47.800 not from This is from just an academic at it's 1362 01:20:47.800 --> 01:20:50.359 published by Oxford. I forget where he teaches, but it's 1363 01:20:50.359 --> 01:20:54.000 a well known book called The Rise of Christian Theology 1364 01:20:54.039 --> 01:20:56.439 and the End of Ancient Metaphysics, and it basically traces 1365 01:20:56.479 --> 01:21:00.640 the development of just the idea of hypostasis, right, which 1366 01:21:00.680 --> 01:21:03.479 is very important to the Trinity, all the way from 1367 01:21:03.560 --> 01:21:08.039 the Cappadocians to John Damascus in the seven hundred seventh centuries, 1368 01:21:08.079 --> 01:21:09.359 which is contemporary. 1369 01:21:09.439 --> 01:21:10.880 He's the first Christian to write about. 1370 01:21:10.760 --> 01:21:13.520 Islam, by the way. So basically we're going to trace 1371 01:21:14.119 --> 01:21:18.000 this really sophisticated development of what hypostasis is in the 1372 01:21:18.000 --> 01:21:19.840 Trinity and what it is in Christology. 1373 01:21:21.079 --> 01:21:24.000 And it's very nuanced, very precise. 1374 01:21:24.079 --> 01:21:27.359 There's a lot of philosophical terminology, a lot of references 1375 01:21:27.359 --> 01:21:30.720 to Aristotle, all this kind of stuff. And then by 1376 01:21:30.760 --> 01:21:35.119 the time that we get the revelations to Muhammad, it's 1377 01:21:35.199 --> 01:21:38.560 like it's like that and never, none of this ever happened, 1378 01:21:39.439 --> 01:21:43.920 you see. And again I'm stressing this argument because if 1379 01:21:43.920 --> 01:21:46.479 we're going to look at continuity again, we would want 1380 01:21:46.520 --> 01:21:51.600 to know precisely where the previous tradition was wrong. And 1381 01:21:51.640 --> 01:21:53.840 I'm not trying to bank everything on philosophy. But it's 1382 01:21:53.840 --> 01:21:57.319 sort of like, you know, Christianity had already adopted and 1383 01:21:57.840 --> 01:22:01.840 baptized and was okay philosophy by this point. Even if 1384 01:22:01.880 --> 01:22:05.279 you think it's wrong, this is this is not really debatable. 1385 01:22:05.279 --> 01:22:08.960 It's pretty easy to It's pretty well known, right. I 1386 01:22:08.960 --> 01:22:12.279 mean John Damascus, for example, he wrote an entire book 1387 01:22:12.319 --> 01:22:16.520 on Aristilian philosophy, is another book on dialectical philosophy. I 1388 01:22:16.560 --> 01:22:19.239 mean his his systematic theology in the seventh century is 1389 01:22:19.359 --> 01:22:23.399 utilizing a lot of philosophy, as we said, from Cappadocians 1390 01:22:23.399 --> 01:22:25.960 and people prior to him. Maximus the Confessor full of 1391 01:22:26.039 --> 01:22:28.079 a lot of philosophy and at texts. And it's like, 1392 01:22:28.159 --> 01:22:30.079 if you're going to deal with and reject the position, 1393 01:22:30.239 --> 01:22:33.000 and I'm not even saying that it's true, because it's 1394 01:22:33.000 --> 01:22:35.279 a lot of philosophy. I'm just saying that we would 1395 01:22:35.319 --> 01:22:39.760 need to see understanding of what's being talked about. And 1396 01:22:39.760 --> 01:22:42.000 it's not even that it's not understood. It's like there's 1397 01:22:42.000 --> 01:22:42.960 no knowledge of it at all. 1398 01:22:43.720 --> 01:22:47.479 It's like you're having it's like you had this whole long, 1399 01:22:47.600 --> 01:22:52.680 lengthy discussion on a major pressing issue that you're trying 1400 01:22:52.680 --> 01:22:55.840 to understand, everybody has had this discussion forever. He went 1401 01:22:55.920 --> 01:22:58.479 on and on and on. Yeah, you have already established 1402 01:22:58.520 --> 01:23:02.920 a system of analyzing This is how different theories came 1403 01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:06.039 to proper conclusions dealt with it. And then some guy 1404 01:23:06.079 --> 01:23:10.640 comes along and entirely ignores everything that has been said 1405 01:23:11.119 --> 01:23:13.760 and just starts a discussion from the very beginning. 1406 01:23:14.079 --> 01:23:15.920 It says, I had a dream and everything you said 1407 01:23:15.960 --> 01:23:20.479 is don't basically basically, let me ask you this question 1408 01:23:20.680 --> 01:23:22.439 what you think of this? So the more I hear 1409 01:23:22.760 --> 01:23:26.560 what we're talking about in regard to the rise of Islam, originally, 1410 01:23:26.680 --> 01:23:31.359 it's very parallel in many ways to Mormonism, and so 1411 01:23:31.439 --> 01:23:36.079 Mormonism basically says, all the prior revelation has some truth 1412 01:23:36.159 --> 01:23:39.279 in it, but it was also corrupted. Ours is the 1413 01:23:39.319 --> 01:23:42.960 new final revelation, and you just didn't have the full 1414 01:23:43.039 --> 01:23:45.720 consistency of understanding that God is. 1415 01:23:45.720 --> 01:23:48.520 Actually three things. It's also ironic too. 1416 01:23:48.399 --> 01:23:51.720 That in Mormonism God has a the Father has a 1417 01:23:51.760 --> 01:23:54.640 body much like what we see in the Koran, with the. 1418 01:23:56.159 --> 01:23:59.119 Body of all lots of it. But you know. 1419 01:23:59.119 --> 01:24:03.439 They're they're a pro is not Now there's actually polytheism. 1420 01:24:03.479 --> 01:24:08.000 I would argue Mormonism is ultimate polytheistic. But I mean, 1421 01:24:08.199 --> 01:24:14.319 could we conceivably just counter the whole system with Mormonism, 1422 01:24:14.319 --> 01:24:18.800 because if the argument is, well, the Kuran is preserved, well, 1423 01:24:18.800 --> 01:24:22.279 maybe the books of Mormon are better preserved. 1424 01:24:22.520 --> 01:24:23.000 You see. 1425 01:24:23.600 --> 01:24:27.399 Plus the aside from the preservation, you don't even need 1426 01:24:27.439 --> 01:24:29.840 the preservation there. You could simply appeal to the fact 1427 01:24:29.880 --> 01:24:36.159 that some guy comes along in the middle of a 1428 01:24:36.279 --> 01:24:40.439 land where people are trying to figure out which religious 1429 01:24:40.439 --> 01:24:44.439 beliefs to hold onto. This guy comes along and claims 1430 01:24:44.479 --> 01:24:47.359 to receive revelations, and there are people around him who 1431 01:24:47.359 --> 01:24:50.880 are affirmed that he is indeed revelations. The affirm that 1432 01:24:50.920 --> 01:24:55.119 he's of great character, the affirm that he is a 1433 01:24:55.239 --> 01:25:00.760 fantastically pious guy who was entirely selfless, and a lot 1434 01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:04.960 seems to be God, seems to be completely in agreement 1435 01:25:05.000 --> 01:25:08.439 and basically in his service, and it gives him these 1436 01:25:08.560 --> 01:25:13.119 these revelations, and he establishes the truth and declares that 1437 01:25:13.199 --> 01:25:16.239 people corrupted his message. I mean, he's ultimately doing exactly 1438 01:25:16.279 --> 01:25:19.399 what Mohammad did. I've heard a lot of people refer 1439 01:25:19.479 --> 01:25:24.399 to him as the American Muhammad or there there there 1440 01:25:24.439 --> 01:25:27.920 are people who say I spoke to a former Mormon 1441 01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:32.000 here on this channel, a woman who is a former 1442 01:25:32.039 --> 01:25:35.239 an ex Mormon. I think her her channel is called 1443 01:25:35.319 --> 01:25:39.760 ex mole X, But she came on here just to 1444 01:25:39.760 --> 01:25:43.199 to also pleasantly argue that she did hear about Islam 1445 01:25:43.479 --> 01:25:46.359 and how Mormonism is compared to Islam before when she 1446 01:25:46.640 --> 01:25:52.640 when she was a Mormon, and also afterwards. And she 1447 01:25:52.720 --> 01:25:55.880 was also pointing out that the way the revelation is 1448 01:25:56.479 --> 01:26:05.159 seen and the way the way Joseph Smith, yeahs my 1449 01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:07.439 mind going all over the place, the way he is 1450 01:26:07.600 --> 01:26:10.840 he is trusted by Mormons in terms of his revelations, 1451 01:26:11.359 --> 01:26:14.079 even if they seem completely absurd and out of places. 1452 01:26:14.159 --> 01:26:16.760 Quite similar to the way Mohammed is trusted in Islam 1453 01:26:17.159 --> 01:26:21.720 when he makes when he brings outrageously weird revelations, or 1454 01:26:21.760 --> 01:26:23.760 when he brings revelations that are just about him and 1455 01:26:23.800 --> 01:26:27.319 his desires. It's quite similar to it to Mormonism. To 1456 01:26:27.359 --> 01:26:30.399 the point that you bring up it could be very 1457 01:26:31.159 --> 01:26:34.079 it could be reasonable to to go with that projection. 1458 01:26:34.119 --> 01:26:37.439 And I have seen people actually argue against Muslims and 1459 01:26:37.439 --> 01:26:40.479 and say why not just accept Mormonism. It does the 1460 01:26:40.600 --> 01:26:44.000 very same thing. But then you get a very hypocritical 1461 01:26:44.039 --> 01:26:48.039 answer from them, and the answer is just revolves around, well, 1462 01:26:49.439 --> 01:26:52.720 we know that that's not true, because you know, he 1463 01:26:52.880 --> 01:26:56.239 was just all about his own desires and then he 1464 01:26:56.399 --> 01:26:58.520 just made up revelations. Well, you could say the same 1465 01:26:58.560 --> 01:27:02.840 thing about Mohammad. Well we already know, we already have 1466 01:27:03.000 --> 01:27:05.199 the truth. With Muhammad already brought the truth, we don't 1467 01:27:05.199 --> 01:27:06.079 need anything else. 1468 01:27:06.319 --> 01:27:10.119 Well you could see, can I could see them just 1469 01:27:10.119 --> 01:27:12.760 in terms of epistemology making that work is that they'd 1470 01:27:12.760 --> 01:27:16.560 have to say in a strict way that the Qur'an 1471 01:27:16.760 --> 01:27:19.720 was the final revelation. But I mean, but aren't the 1472 01:27:19.760 --> 01:27:23.119 hadiths also additional revelations? 1473 01:27:23.239 --> 01:27:25.439 So well what what you what they do with that 1474 01:27:25.640 --> 01:27:27.359 is they will say the Koran is up is the 1475 01:27:27.359 --> 01:27:30.800 absolute final revelation, that is the truth. After that, no 1476 01:27:30.920 --> 01:27:33.520 revelation can can come, no prophet can come. 1477 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:34.119 Uh. 1478 01:27:34.199 --> 01:27:36.680 The hadiths are different from that because the hadiths are 1479 01:27:36.720 --> 01:27:40.520 basically just saying, so Muhammad that or actions that people 1480 01:27:40.560 --> 01:27:44.199 around him noted that are not considered revelation. Everything that 1481 01:27:44.239 --> 01:27:49.279 comes after him is absolutely unacceptable, absolutely false. And that's 1482 01:27:49.279 --> 01:27:51.119 the answer that they will give you when you when 1483 01:27:51.159 --> 01:27:53.319 you tell them, okay. Joseph Smith he made a lot 1484 01:27:53.359 --> 01:27:55.600 of a lot of claims. He said, these religions in 1485 01:27:55.600 --> 01:27:58.720 the past word corrupted, and he's he brings the truth. 1486 01:27:58.920 --> 01:28:03.279 He So wait a minute, though, Let's expand that argument 1487 01:28:03.279 --> 01:28:07.880 and say, well, but Allah apparently allowed divine revelation to 1488 01:28:07.920 --> 01:28:12.199 be corrupted amongst the Jews and the Christians, right, yes, 1489 01:28:12.439 --> 01:28:16.600 so he allowed them to be deceived, apparently, and for 1490 01:28:16.640 --> 01:28:17.720 the revelation to be corupted. 1491 01:28:17.720 --> 01:28:19.079 Hence, why we need the Koran? 1492 01:28:19.960 --> 01:28:22.439 Why are we why should we think that it's not 1493 01:28:22.640 --> 01:28:28.239 all also corrupted if Allah can allow the revelation to 1494 01:28:28.279 --> 01:28:29.359 be corrupted. 1495 01:28:29.279 --> 01:28:33.399 Because because because the Quran is unique in that Allah 1496 01:28:33.720 --> 01:28:38.119 had a plan of those previous scriptures being corrupted, and 1497 01:28:38.479 --> 01:28:40.479 the Koran is unique in that this is the only 1498 01:28:40.520 --> 01:28:43.520 book which Allah promised nobody will ever be able to 1499 01:28:43.560 --> 01:28:45.359 corrupt and he will protect it for well. 1500 01:28:45.359 --> 01:28:49.039 But my point is that the promises are in the 1501 01:28:49.079 --> 01:28:54.560 older books too, right, So. 1502 01:28:53.399 --> 01:28:55.800 But you can't trust those books because those books were corrupted. 1503 01:28:56.119 --> 01:28:58.600 I know. But that's what I'm saying is that the 1504 01:28:58.640 --> 01:29:02.479 same promise of non corruption was in the Torah, it's 1505 01:29:02.520 --> 01:29:08.560 in the Christian texts and allowed. 1506 01:29:07.720 --> 01:29:08.720 Us to be deceived. 1507 01:29:08.800 --> 01:29:12.439 Then how are we not in the same epistemic dilemma. 1508 01:29:13.199 --> 01:29:15.800 If we believe the Kuran, that Allah might be allowing 1509 01:29:15.880 --> 01:29:17.000 us to be deceived. 1510 01:29:17.039 --> 01:29:18.159 Now you see what I'm saying. 1511 01:29:18.359 --> 01:29:20.000 Yeah, but a lot wouldn't do that because and we 1512 01:29:20.039 --> 01:29:23.319 already know that. We already know that those crypt scriptures 1513 01:29:23.319 --> 01:29:25.560 are corrupt because when you when you read them, you 1514 01:29:25.600 --> 01:29:28.840 will see that they are obviously uh not in alignment 1515 01:29:28.880 --> 01:29:31.239 with pure morttheistic as like beliefs. 1516 01:29:31.760 --> 01:29:34.199 But that's derived from the book the same question. 1517 01:29:34.479 --> 01:29:37.720 So yeah, well if you just if you, if you 1518 01:29:37.880 --> 01:29:39.800 go and look at those books, if you just look 1519 01:29:39.840 --> 01:29:48.880 at the Kuran and open your eyes, you will see that. 1520 01:29:41.760 --> 01:29:52.439 You just look, Okay, yeah, I mean that's the thing. 1521 01:29:52.720 --> 01:29:55.720 Somebody wrote a paper. I have to dig it up. 1522 01:29:55.760 --> 01:29:57.760 I've got it save somewhere. It's a couple of years ago. 1523 01:29:57.800 --> 01:30:03.600 But they were arguing that. But Islam does argue that 1524 01:30:03.840 --> 01:30:07.880 Allah is a good deceiver, right, And so if Allah 1525 01:30:08.000 --> 01:30:10.760 is a good deceiver, then how are we able to 1526 01:30:10.880 --> 01:30:14.520 trust at all any of our reading of the Quran? Right, 1527 01:30:14.960 --> 01:30:19.680 we might potentially be be be being deceived. Right, And 1528 01:30:19.960 --> 01:30:24.800 so now all the propositions are potentially deceptive, and so 1529 01:30:24.840 --> 01:30:28.399 we're not in any better position with the Qoran than 1530 01:30:28.479 --> 01:30:30.720 we are if we are a Muslim and we're looking 1531 01:30:30.760 --> 01:30:34.520 at the Jewish and Christian text, which also promise that 1532 01:30:34.560 --> 01:30:37.880 they're inspired and not that they don't have errors. 1533 01:30:37.920 --> 01:30:38.319 You see. 1534 01:30:38.800 --> 01:30:41.199 So in other words, let's say I'm taking Let's say 1535 01:30:41.239 --> 01:30:44.520 I'm a fourth century Jewish Christian. 1536 01:30:45.399 --> 01:30:47.520 The books that I have tell me that. 1537 01:30:47.399 --> 01:30:51.560 They're not corrupted, and they're inspired and they're authoritative. But 1538 01:30:51.840 --> 01:30:57.920 from the Islamic perspective, those books are corrupted and I'm 1539 01:30:58.319 --> 01:31:02.840 basically deceived, right, and so I need the Quran to 1540 01:31:02.920 --> 01:31:06.600 fix that. But Allah is already a good deceiver, and 1541 01:31:06.680 --> 01:31:09.199 so why would I not think that the New revelation 1542 01:31:09.359 --> 01:31:12.399 also is potentially deceptive. You can't just say, well because 1543 01:31:12.399 --> 01:31:14.840 it says it's not because the old books said they 1544 01:31:14.840 --> 01:31:15.079 were not. 1545 01:31:15.239 --> 01:31:18.159 But God was also deceptive back then, you see. 1546 01:31:18.239 --> 01:31:19.079 Does that make sense? 1547 01:31:19.399 --> 01:31:19.640 Yeah? 1548 01:31:19.680 --> 01:31:23.159 Yeah. And there is a very funny, a very nice 1549 01:31:23.159 --> 01:31:24.600 thing that you can add to that which I love 1550 01:31:24.680 --> 01:31:30.720 about Jesus and his crucifixion, some flavor you can add 1551 01:31:30.800 --> 01:31:34.680 to specifically that which is uh So allied as a deceiver. 1552 01:31:36.399 --> 01:31:39.880 He he he says that he is the best of deceivers. 1553 01:31:40.560 --> 01:31:43.800 Think about the what the Quran says about Jesus. Jesus 1554 01:31:43.920 --> 01:31:48.159 was he was sent down with a message with a scripture. 1555 01:31:49.520 --> 01:31:53.600 He was They tried to they denied him, and they 1556 01:31:53.640 --> 01:31:56.880 tried to crucify him. They tried to kill him, but 1557 01:31:57.600 --> 01:32:00.000 they did not manage to kill him, not managed to 1558 01:32:00.000 --> 01:32:04.760 crucifying him. It was only made to appear that way. Okay, Well, 1559 01:32:04.760 --> 01:32:07.359 what happened as a result of that, as a result 1560 01:32:07.439 --> 01:32:12.079 was specifically that a major religion came into existence, that is, 1561 01:32:12.359 --> 01:32:15.960 according to Islam, a complete corruption of the truth. And 1562 01:32:16.000 --> 01:32:21.439 why did it come into existence? Because the people believed 1563 01:32:21.920 --> 01:32:26.640 that Jesus on that day was crucified and they saw him, 1564 01:32:27.199 --> 01:32:31.520 I guess rise, which is a deception. It was made 1565 01:32:31.640 --> 01:32:35.439 to appear to them. So and that appearance, that deception, 1566 01:32:36.000 --> 01:32:38.359 that illusion, whatever you want to call it, brought forth 1567 01:32:38.399 --> 01:32:41.000 the largest religion in the world, which happens to be 1568 01:32:41.039 --> 01:32:44.760 a completely corrupt religion. Is this a last plan? Did 1569 01:32:45.640 --> 01:32:50.039 did a lot establish a plan for Jesus where his 1570 01:32:50.239 --> 01:32:55.920 death was basically a deception which brought forth the largest 1571 01:32:56.159 --> 01:32:58.600 false religion in the world? So did Allah create this 1572 01:32:58.720 --> 01:33:01.840 false religion on purpose? By by creating this deception? 1573 01:33:01.880 --> 01:33:03.680 Well, they would say, yeah, right, I mean, if you're 1574 01:33:03.680 --> 01:33:05.359 a you're a hard determinist, right. 1575 01:33:06.439 --> 01:33:10.199 Yeah, And why would you blame the Christians? Then? See 1576 01:33:10.920 --> 01:33:14.640 exactly why would you blame the Christians Because it looks 1577 01:33:14.640 --> 01:33:16.840 like Allah made it a lot, created the deception, and 1578 01:33:16.840 --> 01:33:19.319 they fell for it. So it's it's not there is 1579 01:33:19.319 --> 01:33:22.560 it their fault? If All is the best of deceivers? 1580 01:33:25.840 --> 01:33:30.680 Yeah, it's just maybe this plays into the pathology of 1581 01:33:30.720 --> 01:33:34.760 that religion right to where well, if Allah is the 1582 01:33:34.760 --> 01:33:39.239 best of deceivers, is it possible that Muslims then welcome 1583 01:33:39.319 --> 01:33:40.039 being deceptive? 1584 01:33:41.399 --> 01:33:41.760 Maybe? 1585 01:33:43.239 --> 01:33:45.039 I mean, I'm what do you think is do you. 1586 01:33:45.000 --> 01:33:45.520 Think that. 1587 01:33:51.840 --> 01:33:53.800 I want to think deeply, like you. 1588 01:33:53.760 --> 01:33:56.520 Know people, do you think the takia objection? Is that 1589 01:33:56.600 --> 01:33:57.960 overused or is that. 1590 01:33:58.039 --> 01:34:00.439 I think I think Okay, that's why I'm thinking about 1591 01:34:00.439 --> 01:34:03.680 this right now. But here's the issue. There is a 1592 01:34:03.720 --> 01:34:07.199 lot of there is a lot of overuse of that 1593 01:34:07.239 --> 01:34:11.399 whole tekia accusation of saying whenever Muslims says something that 1594 01:34:11.439 --> 01:34:13.279 doesn't seem to be true or that doesn't seem to 1595 01:34:13.319 --> 01:34:16.840 be consistent. Uh, some people might say they're just they're 1596 01:34:16.840 --> 01:34:19.279 just doing tekia. I would say that that is largely 1597 01:34:19.359 --> 01:34:24.479 overused Muslims do not learn actively to to lie and 1598 01:34:24.520 --> 01:34:27.520 to deceive and to you know, hide the truth and 1599 01:34:27.600 --> 01:34:30.239 all of that. And they don't learn about this concept, uh, 1600 01:34:30.520 --> 01:34:33.439 this idea called tekia, and that they're supposed to practice this. 1601 01:34:34.960 --> 01:34:38.960 The problem is the problem with that is and there 1602 01:34:39.000 --> 01:34:42.399 is a lot of nuance to this, although takia is 1603 01:34:42.479 --> 01:34:47.239 usually a wrong, over used accusation. Although Muslims don't actively 1604 01:34:47.319 --> 01:34:52.880 learn to to lie explicitly, Muslims do have a habit 1605 01:34:53.319 --> 01:35:01.119 quite often of concealing uncomfortable truths or conceal certain things 1606 01:35:01.119 --> 01:35:06.159 which they also lie to themselves about, and simply go 1607 01:35:06.279 --> 01:35:09.760 to whatever makes it easier to convince the other side 1608 01:35:09.840 --> 01:35:13.760 that Islam is true. And and you learn this whole concept, 1609 01:35:13.760 --> 01:35:17.760 which is that religion is supposed to be made easy. 1610 01:35:18.079 --> 01:35:22.079 So when you try to preach Islam to somebody, make 1611 01:35:22.119 --> 01:35:28.720 it easy. Forget about the complexities. You can cover things 1612 01:35:28.720 --> 01:35:31.520 that don't need to be mentioned, you can ignore questions 1613 01:35:31.520 --> 01:35:34.960 that are more pragmatic. Yeah, just focus on one whatever 1614 01:35:35.000 --> 01:35:37.319 makes it easier for the other person to accept Islam. 1615 01:35:37.479 --> 01:35:40.760 That's it. So, while the accusations of the key are 1616 01:35:41.199 --> 01:35:44.760 largely wrong and overused, there is an element of doing 1617 01:35:44.800 --> 01:35:46.760 whatever it takes just to make the other person accept 1618 01:35:46.800 --> 01:35:51.680 that Islam is true, and that might include there is 1619 01:35:51.720 --> 01:35:54.600 a there is an issue here that might include occasionally 1620 01:35:54.680 --> 01:35:58.239 using deliberate deception when you deal with people that you 1621 01:35:58.279 --> 01:36:02.640 consider enemies of Islam, like myself, where they say it 1622 01:36:03.239 --> 01:36:05.640 they are basically at war with me and with any 1623 01:36:05.720 --> 01:36:08.680 mues of Islam, and in war, deception is allowed, as 1624 01:36:08.760 --> 01:36:11.720 Mohammad said, exactly is it is it is to be used. 1625 01:36:12.079 --> 01:36:13.840 So that is part of that as well. 1626 01:36:14.720 --> 01:36:17.880 So there's not like any hadith that says, you know, 1627 01:36:18.000 --> 01:36:21.720 you may deceive your opponent explicitly. 1628 01:36:22.359 --> 01:36:26.319 No, there is nothing that says you may or you 1629 01:36:26.359 --> 01:36:30.680 should lie to them. All there is is that there is, 1630 01:36:30.720 --> 01:36:34.520 there is implied, there are words for Muhammed that deception 1631 01:36:34.920 --> 01:36:40.239 is part of war, and there are just instructions on 1632 01:36:40.520 --> 01:36:44.119 making it making it easier for people to understand Islam. 1633 01:36:44.239 --> 01:36:45.279 So that's that's pretty much. 1634 01:36:45.319 --> 01:36:48.720 It interesting, that's good, that's overused. 1635 01:36:48.800 --> 01:36:54.239 Like said, yeah, I want to point at this thing 1636 01:36:54.319 --> 01:36:57.960 here to simply revisit the whole issue of ignorance of 1637 01:36:58.039 --> 01:37:01.319 pre Islamic beliefs. So here's a whole narrative that is 1638 01:37:01.359 --> 01:37:07.560 adopt adopted from later Christian ideas where Jesus speaks as 1639 01:37:07.560 --> 01:37:10.720 a as a baby when he is born and tells 1640 01:37:10.760 --> 01:37:13.840 people that he is Jesus. But what's very important here 1641 01:37:13.960 --> 01:37:17.680 that narrative is in Graduate in nineteen verse thirty. It 1642 01:37:17.760 --> 01:37:23.119 says Jesus said, indeed, I am the servant of Allah. 1643 01:37:23.239 --> 01:37:26.239 He has given me the scripture and made me a prophet. 1644 01:37:27.239 --> 01:37:34.279 So I hear you already chuggling about this about what 1645 01:37:34.319 --> 01:37:37.119 it says here. But yeah, so that the understanding here 1646 01:37:37.159 --> 01:37:40.439 is that Allah gave Jesus a scripture and made him 1647 01:37:40.479 --> 01:37:42.840 a prophet. And what's very interesting is that Jesus says 1648 01:37:42.840 --> 01:37:47.079 this as a baby already, is what Jesus is saying 1649 01:37:47.079 --> 01:37:49.399 this as a baby here, So he's speaking as a 1650 01:37:49.439 --> 01:37:51.520 baby and he's seeing, I am a servant of Allah. 1651 01:37:52.399 --> 01:37:54.880 Allah gave me a scripture and made me a prophet. 1652 01:37:57.000 --> 01:37:59.800 I have a note two saying that this is from 1653 01:37:59.840 --> 01:38:01.760 that Syriac infancy narrative. 1654 01:38:01.840 --> 01:38:04.520 Right, yeah, yeah, and. 1655 01:38:04.600 --> 01:38:07.319 What what what when when that's brought up, I've not 1656 01:38:07.359 --> 01:38:11.359 hurt anybody addressed? Like is that ever addressed? Like aren't 1657 01:38:11.359 --> 01:38:15.880 these from prior non canonical or superb a graphical texts? 1658 01:38:15.920 --> 01:38:17.239 Like is that ever addressed. 1659 01:38:17.680 --> 01:38:22.760 The answert you get usually are that that people did 1660 01:38:22.840 --> 01:38:30.319 have certain truths and falsehoods that survived throughout the centuries, 1661 01:38:30.359 --> 01:38:31.760 and some of these stories that. 1662 01:38:31.760 --> 01:38:33.840 Came from they don't have a prominent minting that these 1663 01:38:33.880 --> 01:38:34.479 are older. 1664 01:38:35.720 --> 01:38:38.319 Yeah, yeah, you know the yeah they So they will 1665 01:38:38.359 --> 01:38:40.880 just explain that a way is some truth and falsehoods 1666 01:38:41.239 --> 01:38:44.479 through the centuries. Same thing with with For example, there 1667 01:38:44.560 --> 01:38:52.439 is an issue with chapter verse, chapter five, verse thirty three, 1668 01:38:52.680 --> 01:38:57.720 I believe, which is the prominent verse of whoever kills 1669 01:38:57.760 --> 01:39:03.439 one person has killed all men, all humanity. Okay, that's 1670 01:39:03.479 --> 01:39:09.840 chapter five, verse thirty two. It says there we decreed 1671 01:39:09.920 --> 01:39:13.079 upon the children of Israel that whoever kills a soul, 1672 01:39:13.239 --> 01:39:15.640 unless for his soul or for corruption in the land, 1673 01:39:15.720 --> 01:39:18.800 it is as if he had slain all mankind, And 1674 01:39:18.840 --> 01:39:21.359 whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved 1675 01:39:21.399 --> 01:39:26.479 all mankind entirely. And Muslims will often cite only part 1676 01:39:26.520 --> 01:39:29.720 of this, and we'll just say, whoever kills somebody has 1677 01:39:29.800 --> 01:39:33.319 killed all mankind. Whoever saves someone has saved all mankind. 1678 01:39:34.119 --> 01:39:37.960 The problem with this is, as it points out, we 1679 01:39:38.000 --> 01:39:40.279 decreed upon the children of Israel. This is something that 1680 01:39:40.359 --> 01:39:45.399 was apparently taken from Jews. And the problem with this 1681 01:39:45.560 --> 01:39:49.640 is this stuff here, whoever kills a soul unless for 1682 01:39:49.760 --> 01:39:52.000 his soul, it's as if he had killed all mankind. 1683 01:39:52.319 --> 01:39:55.920 And then the same with saving is something that directly 1684 01:39:55.960 --> 01:39:56.920 comes from the town Wood. 1685 01:39:58.039 --> 01:40:01.039 Yeah, I've heard rabbinical sources said, yeah, it. 1686 01:40:01.039 --> 01:40:06.199 Is directly in the Talmud. The Talmud deals with this issue. 1687 01:40:06.239 --> 01:40:12.439 It explains something from the Torah and then says what 1688 01:40:12.479 --> 01:40:15.600 you can understand so that the rabbi says what you 1689 01:40:15.600 --> 01:40:19.600 can from understand from that is that if one killing 1690 01:40:19.640 --> 01:40:21.680 one Jew is like killing all of mankind and saving 1691 01:40:21.960 --> 01:40:24.800 Jews like saving all of So that that is an 1692 01:40:24.840 --> 01:40:26.880 idea that is that is that was presented by the 1693 01:40:26.960 --> 01:40:29.560 rabbis in the Talmud. It is not something that was 1694 01:40:29.640 --> 01:40:32.720 revealed or that was found in the Torah or anything 1695 01:40:32.800 --> 01:40:36.840 like that. It is directly a Talmudic rabbinic explanation of 1696 01:40:37.800 --> 01:40:40.520 the Talmud. But here it is in the Qur'an directly 1697 01:40:40.560 --> 01:40:44.680 presented as God, as if it were from Allah revealed. 1698 01:40:46.000 --> 01:40:47.239 Yeah. I didn't know about that one either. 1699 01:40:47.279 --> 01:40:50.479 So and Reynolds mentioned a couple of those, but I 1700 01:40:50.520 --> 01:40:52.439 don't remember off the top of my head, which one 1701 01:40:52.520 --> 01:40:56.279 he said was Talmudic in terms of the source, So 1702 01:40:56.359 --> 01:40:57.560 that would be that would be one of them. 1703 01:40:57.760 --> 01:40:58.319 That's interesting. 1704 01:40:59.159 --> 01:41:01.119 It was also important note here is that this is, 1705 01:41:01.199 --> 01:41:03.840 according to the Quran, only a law for the Jews. 1706 01:41:04.039 --> 01:41:08.439 So and here's the next verse, just to make it 1707 01:41:08.520 --> 01:41:11.840 very nice. Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war 1708 01:41:11.880 --> 01:41:14.359 against a lie is messenger and strive upon earth to 1709 01:41:14.359 --> 01:41:16.920 cause corruption is none but that they should be killed 1710 01:41:17.039 --> 01:41:19.880 or crucified, or their hands and feet be cut off 1711 01:41:19.880 --> 01:41:24.119 from opposite sides, or that they should be exiled from 1712 01:41:24.119 --> 01:41:26.880 the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world, 1713 01:41:26.920 --> 01:41:29.279 and for them here in the hereafter is a great punishment. 1714 01:41:29.399 --> 01:41:31.439 This is a horrible So. 1715 01:41:31.520 --> 01:41:34.199 Is this why you see some of the radical a 1716 01:41:34.279 --> 01:41:38.399 islonic groups doing this to people at times, including like crucifixion? 1717 01:41:38.880 --> 01:41:42.680 Yeah, and including there were reports in Somalia, for example, 1718 01:41:42.680 --> 01:41:46.560 in the recent civil wars where they were referencing this 1719 01:41:46.680 --> 01:41:49.279 first and actually cutting off the hands and feet from 1720 01:41:49.279 --> 01:41:50.800 opposite sides of rebels. 1721 01:41:51.159 --> 01:41:51.760 That's what I thought. 1722 01:41:51.840 --> 01:41:57.479 Yeah, pretty messed up. Yeah, there's a lot. 1723 01:41:58.119 --> 01:41:59.359 Now is that that one? 1724 01:41:59.640 --> 01:42:03.039 Is that uh from a prior source or is that 1725 01:42:03.159 --> 01:42:04.000 unique to the Quran. 1726 01:42:05.920 --> 01:42:09.880 That part about cutting off stuff that is not that 1727 01:42:10.039 --> 01:42:12.000 is that is from the Quran, but that is just 1728 01:42:12.039 --> 01:42:15.359 the first after the one that is taken from the Jews, 1729 01:42:15.359 --> 01:42:18.600 from the Talmud. So what happened, what probably happened there. 1730 01:42:18.600 --> 01:42:21.159 The theory is what probably happened there. Why the Quran 1731 01:42:21.479 --> 01:42:25.279 suddenly has a Talmudic teaching there as if it was 1732 01:42:25.279 --> 01:42:28.279 really revealed from a law, is that Muhammed was in Medina, 1733 01:42:28.439 --> 01:42:33.159 Medina had a lot of Jews, learned Jews. Jews interact 1734 01:42:33.199 --> 01:42:35.039 with him and tell him things, and one of the 1735 01:42:35.079 --> 01:42:39.439 prominent ideas and teachings they have is specifically that moment 1736 01:42:39.520 --> 01:42:43.520 hears it and probably thinks, oh Allah revealed this to them. 1737 01:42:43.600 --> 01:42:46.359 So it's that included as a revelation from a law. 1738 01:42:46.399 --> 01:42:49.079 But and that's just a big oopsie, you know. 1739 01:42:50.680 --> 01:42:53.199 Yeah, it looks like a lot of the narratives are 1740 01:42:53.720 --> 01:42:59.359 maybe things that were heard and misunderstood, like the Trinity 1741 01:43:01.640 --> 01:43:04.119 Mary stuff that sounds like something that was heard. Oh 1742 01:43:04.159 --> 01:43:06.359 they think this you know there was recorded. 1743 01:43:06.439 --> 01:43:10.199 Yeah. Also I mentioned in Grand nine, verse thirty, there 1744 01:43:10.279 --> 01:43:13.560 is this Jews say Ezra is the son of a 1745 01:43:13.640 --> 01:43:17.279 law and Christians say the Messiah son of a law 1746 01:43:18.000 --> 01:43:22.479 knowed you believe that of God and worships Ezra. But 1747 01:43:23.119 --> 01:43:25.520 it's probably something that he heard. I mean, maybe somebody joked. 1748 01:43:25.520 --> 01:43:27.840 I don't know, maybe somebody was joking about the room, 1749 01:43:27.920 --> 01:43:29.600 and he took it seriously and included. 1750 01:43:29.520 --> 01:43:31.000 Maybe somebody was trolling him. 1751 01:43:31.840 --> 01:43:34.840 And I told him, yeah, we think Ezra right, and 1752 01:43:35.000 --> 01:43:38.520 he wrote that down like it was an ancient trolling. 1753 01:43:38.960 --> 01:43:42.600 Yeah, what, what's have you heard of? The of the 1754 01:43:42.640 --> 01:43:45.319 idea that Alexander the Great is also in the Qur'an. 1755 01:43:47.680 --> 01:43:50.359 That's a very important thing to look into. That. Uh. 1756 01:43:51.319 --> 01:43:55.399 There is a character named the Karnaine in the same 1757 01:43:55.520 --> 01:43:59.680 chapter that also mentions the people the Sleepers seven Sleepers, 1758 01:44:00.199 --> 01:44:03.920 and it talks about a figure named Dul Karnain who 1759 01:44:04.119 --> 01:44:07.960 is a servant of all and who was given all 1760 01:44:08.039 --> 01:44:10.279 kinds of power by Allah and went to the very 1761 01:44:10.359 --> 01:44:14.119 far ends of the world. And the issue with that 1762 01:44:14.239 --> 01:44:17.439 character is nobody knows who that character is. The issue 1763 01:44:17.439 --> 01:44:20.079 with that character is early Islamic scholars, we are very 1764 01:44:20.119 --> 01:44:24.560 clear that the Karnain is Alexander the Great, But over time, 1765 01:44:24.600 --> 01:44:27.039 when people learned who Elese and the Grade actually is, 1766 01:44:27.159 --> 01:44:32.880 they began to deny that and many mostms today will 1767 01:44:32.880 --> 01:44:37.119 still deny that because the Quran basically depicts Alexander the 1768 01:44:37.159 --> 01:44:43.520 Great there as a servant of Allah. Yeah yeah, yeah wow. 1769 01:44:44.520 --> 01:44:46.840 And what happens there going to the Hadith is people come, 1770 01:44:46.920 --> 01:44:50.680 apparently Jews are coming and asking him about this, and 1771 01:44:50.760 --> 01:44:54.520 he then goes away. It comes back many days later 1772 01:44:55.199 --> 01:45:00.560 with these revelations. But the revelations get it all wrong Islam. 1773 01:45:02.680 --> 01:45:06.319 Yeah, maybe maybe he heard, you know, the texts in 1774 01:45:06.479 --> 01:45:13.680 Daniel or Maccabee's which reference that time period of of Alexander. Yeah, 1775 01:45:13.680 --> 01:45:17.399 and maybe he thought that that meant that Alexander was 1776 01:45:17.439 --> 01:45:20.279 a servant of God, which is odd because that's not 1777 01:45:20.399 --> 01:45:24.239 at all what Maccabee says. Like it, Maccabee's doesn't really 1778 01:45:24.279 --> 01:45:28.279 comment a lot on Alexander. It focuses on Antiochus of 1779 01:45:28.359 --> 01:45:33.119 Theefani's right, who's the one that defiles the temple. I'm 1780 01:45:33.119 --> 01:45:35.600 just trying to think, like why he would have Maybe. 1781 01:45:36.000 --> 01:45:41.680 There's an explanation off so historically seen. Apparently the early 1782 01:45:41.800 --> 01:45:46.439 Jews had a developed and understanding of of Alexander the Great, 1783 01:45:46.560 --> 01:45:51.640 where they for a while referred to him as somebody 1784 01:45:51.680 --> 01:45:56.920 who was given given power by God or was favored 1785 01:45:56.960 --> 01:46:01.800 by God because they had an understanding that people who 1786 01:46:01.800 --> 01:46:03.479 become very powerful and we have. 1787 01:46:04.960 --> 01:46:05.399 Providence. 1788 01:46:05.960 --> 01:46:08.079 They yeah, they're they are given divine providence and they 1789 01:46:09.159 --> 01:46:11.439 so they began referring to him as somebody who was 1790 01:46:11.520 --> 01:46:13.800 gifted by God. Yeah, but that doesn't mean that he 1791 01:46:13.960 --> 01:46:17.760 herved God, like that's that's the issue, and probably misunderstood 1792 01:46:17.800 --> 01:46:18.960 that so exactly. 1793 01:46:19.880 --> 01:46:23.159 I mean, it says the same thing about uh Nebucannezer 1794 01:46:23.279 --> 01:46:27.039 that like, when Daniel's talking about Nebucanezer, he says that 1795 01:46:27.159 --> 01:46:32.319 divine providence raised up Nezer. Doesn't mean that Negeezer was 1796 01:46:32.359 --> 01:46:34.479 a servant of God. In fact, he was a blasphemer 1797 01:46:34.560 --> 01:46:36.960 and he in the Book of Daniel, he's punished. 1798 01:46:36.640 --> 01:46:37.720 Because he's a blasphemer. 1799 01:46:38.000 --> 01:46:38.199 Yeah. 1800 01:46:38.560 --> 01:46:41.159 So yeah, that's fascinating. 1801 01:46:41.399 --> 01:46:44.000 I was gonna look and see how because I know 1802 01:46:44.159 --> 01:46:49.359 mccabee's mentions. I can't remember if it mentions him explicitly 1803 01:46:49.640 --> 01:46:51.359 or if it just kind of mentions him in passing 1804 01:46:51.640 --> 01:46:56.079 in the first chapter of Macabee's but he's talking about 1805 01:46:56.159 --> 01:47:00.479 that period. Yeah, I don't I don't think he mentions 1806 01:47:00.560 --> 01:47:01.159 him by name. 1807 01:47:03.399 --> 01:47:05.880 Thinks serious said, can you look at the errors of 1808 01:47:05.920 --> 01:47:07.720 the Trinity in the ground. We did that, thank you 1809 01:47:07.840 --> 01:47:08.279 so much. 1810 01:47:08.680 --> 01:47:09.720 No, it does, excuse me. 1811 01:47:09.880 --> 01:47:13.760 So the first, the very beginning of maccabee's doesn't mention 1812 01:47:13.960 --> 01:47:17.399 Alexander as king of Greeks. He went to the ends 1813 01:47:17.399 --> 01:47:22.199 of the earth, he spoiled, he spoiled the earth like 1814 01:47:23.720 --> 01:47:30.399 army spoils. He fell sick and died, doesn't reference anything 1815 01:47:30.439 --> 01:47:33.520 about it, just states it kind of like a history 1816 01:47:33.600 --> 01:47:37.640 of Alexander. And then it moves into talking about Antiochus 1817 01:47:37.960 --> 01:47:41.560 being a horrible blasphemer because he was one of the 1818 01:47:41.800 --> 01:47:46.000 four generals that took over after Alexander passed away. Alexander 1819 01:47:46.039 --> 01:47:48.039 ray for twelve years and then he died. His servants 1820 01:47:48.079 --> 01:47:50.039 took over and ruled in his place. One of those 1821 01:47:50.199 --> 01:47:55.199 was Antiochus. So it doesn't there's never a positive mention 1822 01:47:55.479 --> 01:47:58.760 in maccabe's as just as curiosity. 1823 01:48:01.439 --> 01:48:03.079 I will quickly put this year on the screen just 1824 01:48:03.159 --> 01:48:07.439 because it's so funny. Uh So, here is the Kuronic 1825 01:48:07.520 --> 01:48:10.640 narrative on the Karnae, and it says in eighteen eighty 1826 01:48:10.760 --> 01:48:14.279 three and they ask you about the Karnaine and lo 1827 01:48:14.439 --> 01:48:20.479 garnane literally means the two horned one, the two horned one, Yeah, 1828 01:48:20.520 --> 01:48:21.479 two horned one. 1829 01:48:22.000 --> 01:48:24.439 Oh, that that might actually be a reference to Daniel. 1830 01:48:25.520 --> 01:48:30.319 Well, the thing is so, if if you look at this, 1831 01:48:30.600 --> 01:48:33.680 if you look at the narrative here, it is very much, 1832 01:48:34.359 --> 01:48:41.359 very much copies ancient myths, the legends about Alexander. It 1833 01:48:41.720 --> 01:48:47.359 basically copies the Alexander romance legends. And Alexander the Great 1834 01:48:47.520 --> 01:48:50.720 was known as the one who wears a helmet with 1835 01:48:50.840 --> 01:48:54.359 two horns. And there were coins that were that existed 1836 01:48:54.359 --> 01:48:56.680 in Arabia as well at the time where Alexand the 1837 01:48:56.760 --> 01:48:59.680 Greatest depicted somebody with two horns. But it says here 1838 01:49:00.279 --> 01:49:03.119 I will recite to you about him a report. Indeed, 1839 01:49:03.199 --> 01:49:05.319 we established him upon the earth, and we gave him 1840 01:49:05.319 --> 01:49:08.279 from everything away. So he followed away until when he 1841 01:49:08.359 --> 01:49:11.359 reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting 1842 01:49:11.399 --> 01:49:14.520 in a body of dark water. And he found neared 1843 01:49:14.600 --> 01:49:19.680 eight people, and we said, oh, theo carnein. Either you 1844 01:49:19.760 --> 01:49:22.920 punish them or else adopted them a way of goodness. 1845 01:49:23.479 --> 01:49:25.880 Here is a very interesting detail. He found the sun 1846 01:49:26.039 --> 01:49:31.680 setting in a pool of dark water. He said, as 1847 01:49:31.760 --> 01:49:33.520 for one who wrongs, we will punish them. Then he 1848 01:49:33.560 --> 01:49:35.560 will be returned to his lord, and he will be 1849 01:49:35.600 --> 01:49:37.880 punished with a terrible punishment, but as for one who 1850 01:49:37.960 --> 01:49:41.319 believes and does righteousness, he will have a reward. Then 1851 01:49:41.359 --> 01:49:43.600 he followed another way. When he came to the rising 1852 01:49:43.680 --> 01:49:45.960 of the sun, he found it rising on a people 1853 01:49:46.000 --> 01:49:48.840 for whom we had not made against any shield, and 1854 01:49:48.920 --> 01:49:51.359 then he builds for them ay wall to protect them. 1855 01:49:52.199 --> 01:49:55.920 But this is basically goes back to all legends about 1856 01:49:55.920 --> 01:49:59.880 Alexander the Great, who allegedly traveled to the very very east, 1857 01:50:00.199 --> 01:50:04.319 very west, and who built a giant wall to protect 1858 01:50:04.399 --> 01:50:06.239 these people from these invaders. 1859 01:50:07.520 --> 01:50:11.760 And yeah, but you'll find this interesting because if you 1860 01:50:11.840 --> 01:50:16.439 look at Daniel eight, like verses five to fourteen, a 1861 01:50:16.479 --> 01:50:18.159 lot of people think that it's whether you think it's 1862 01:50:18.199 --> 01:50:21.920 a prophecy or whether it was written later. It's talking 1863 01:50:21.960 --> 01:50:25.079 about Alexander, and it's calling him the horn the horned one, 1864 01:50:26.880 --> 01:50:28.840 the goat, it calls him the male goat. 1865 01:50:28.880 --> 01:50:30.319 I think here and yeah, verse five. 1866 01:50:31.439 --> 01:50:34.079 So what I'm saying what's funny about that is that 1867 01:50:34.680 --> 01:50:39.680 the description is that he's an evil pagan ruler in Daniel, 1868 01:50:39.800 --> 01:50:42.560 but he's called the horned goat, the horned one. Yeah, 1869 01:50:42.960 --> 01:50:44.880 and he's li liken to a goat, which in scripture, 1870 01:50:44.920 --> 01:50:48.520 goats are typically referred to as the wicked sheeps and goats. 1871 01:50:49.000 --> 01:50:51.600 So I'm just pointing out that it's the chronic narrative. 1872 01:50:51.840 --> 01:50:54.920 If if he heard this story from Jews, or if 1873 01:50:54.960 --> 01:50:59.000 he'd heard Daniel and thought maybe that was about Alexander. 1874 01:50:59.199 --> 01:51:03.439 Maybe maybe maybe that could be how its So what's. 1875 01:51:03.319 --> 01:51:07.119 Funny is that in Daniel he's a wicked person. 1876 01:51:07.880 --> 01:51:10.600 And and that's where the issue is. He just hears 1877 01:51:10.800 --> 01:51:13.920 bits of knowledge, probably from from the Jews, from others, 1878 01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:17.199 and then the things, oh, I have a revelation from 1879 01:51:17.239 --> 01:51:17.560 a law. 1880 01:51:18.520 --> 01:51:21.960 Allah says so and so and so and But you're 1881 01:51:22.039 --> 01:51:25.760 saying that he in this passage about this figure here, 1882 01:51:26.640 --> 01:51:28.800 that it's actually calling him a righteous person. 1883 01:51:28.720 --> 01:51:31.640 Right, Yeah, No, it's it's it's literally according to the verse, 1884 01:51:31.680 --> 01:51:33.720 it's a lot communicating with him and making him a 1885 01:51:33.920 --> 01:51:38.279 judge over people, whether they are righteous or or not. 1886 01:51:38.720 --> 01:51:39.520 And you're saying that. 1887 01:51:40.600 --> 01:51:45.880 Initially the Muslim scholars have said it's it's Alexander, but 1888 01:51:46.199 --> 01:51:47.720 now they don't, or there's debate. 1889 01:51:48.359 --> 01:51:51.159 Some still say that it's Alexander, but most of them 1890 01:51:51.199 --> 01:51:55.000 nowadays deny it. But it's, yeah, it's in early Islamic history. 1891 01:51:55.079 --> 01:51:58.039 The interation. What's very clear that this is a reference 1892 01:51:58.079 --> 01:51:59.000 to Alexander the Great. 1893 01:51:59.600 --> 01:52:02.840 Yes, there's another example of just something being misunderstood. Yeah yeah, 1894 01:52:03.159 --> 01:52:05.119 So what would now do they say that it's just 1895 01:52:05.199 --> 01:52:06.640 some unknown ruler or something. 1896 01:52:07.039 --> 01:52:10.640 Yeah, most likely they usually say that it's it's that 1897 01:52:11.039 --> 01:52:13.960 that we don't know who it is. But that's also 1898 01:52:14.079 --> 01:52:17.119 very funny because there's just some guy mentioned here, a 1899 01:52:17.119 --> 01:52:19.199 little car name. You have no idea who it is, 1900 01:52:21.239 --> 01:52:21.560 that's it. 1901 01:52:21.920 --> 01:52:22.119 Yeah. 1902 01:52:25.199 --> 01:52:27.840 Yeah. Plus he also builds a wall here that is 1903 01:52:27.880 --> 01:52:31.880 supposed to prevent Gog and Magogue, also a narrative taken 1904 01:52:31.920 --> 01:52:36.159 from the Bible and previous beliefs. 1905 01:52:37.399 --> 01:52:41.159 Well, that's interesting because that's Ezekiel. But there's no ravens 1906 01:52:41.239 --> 01:52:43.039 or explanation to what Ezekiel's talking about. 1907 01:52:43.520 --> 01:52:45.399 But here here it's like he builds a wall, and 1908 01:52:45.560 --> 01:52:49.800 Gog and Magog are these these these beings, these corruptors, 1909 01:52:51.680 --> 01:52:54.039 and they are behind that wall, and they are to 1910 01:52:54.199 --> 01:52:57.600 this day still trying to get through that wall, and 1911 01:52:57.800 --> 01:52:59.920 one day they will make a hole into the wall 1912 01:53:00.000 --> 01:53:01.319 and they will invade the whole world. 1913 01:53:02.000 --> 01:53:04.960 And basically, well, now I'm getting this is in my mind, 1914 01:53:05.920 --> 01:53:07.840 what is this sounds like the plot of. 1915 01:53:09.640 --> 01:53:13.000 What was the Avengers? Were the like making up. 1916 01:53:13.079 --> 01:53:14.960 They're making a hole in the sky and the member 1917 01:53:15.000 --> 01:53:16.920 they come through the portal? Is that what we're talking about? 1918 01:53:17.920 --> 01:53:21.079 Something like that. I've I've never watched you in movies, actually, 1919 01:53:21.760 --> 01:53:22.199 very honest. 1920 01:53:23.000 --> 01:53:24.760 What does this mean? This hole in the wall and 1921 01:53:24.760 --> 01:53:26.199 they're trying to get through to this day. 1922 01:53:28.720 --> 01:53:33.640 Which which I think there's a I don't want to 1923 01:53:33.680 --> 01:53:36.840 explain it myself. I would like to let Muhammad explain 1924 01:53:36.880 --> 01:53:37.159 it to you. 1925 01:53:38.640 --> 01:53:41.439 Uh, I was just in a hottie about that. 1926 01:53:42.119 --> 01:53:44.960 Well, it's it's also here in the Qur'an. It's it is, 1927 01:53:45.560 --> 01:53:47.520 but it is more any more detail described in the 1928 01:53:48.359 --> 01:53:52.079 so here it is mentions They said, although we're kind 1929 01:53:52.079 --> 01:53:54.920 of indeed, Gog and Magogue are corruptors in the land, 1930 01:53:55.079 --> 01:53:57.159 So may we assigned for you an expenditure that you 1931 01:53:57.239 --> 01:54:01.319 may make a barrier between them and us? And he 1932 01:54:01.640 --> 01:54:05.479 does that. He builds a huge wall, and it says 1933 01:54:05.600 --> 01:54:08.000 so they were unable to pass over it, know, were 1934 01:54:08.039 --> 01:54:12.119 they able to penetrate it? And then it further says, 1935 01:54:12.600 --> 01:54:17.479 but one day much will be blown and will assemble 1936 01:54:17.560 --> 01:54:22.159 them in an assembly. Yeah, one day they will get over. 1937 01:54:22.399 --> 01:54:24.279 I guess, like, is this a literal wall? 1938 01:54:24.399 --> 01:54:27.319 Or is there like some spiritual reality where they can't. 1939 01:54:29.520 --> 01:54:37.520 I'm going to now invoke Muhammed. Here ah, here is Mohammed. 1940 01:54:37.800 --> 01:54:42.680 According to the Hadis, it says the prophet got up 1941 01:54:42.680 --> 01:54:44.960 from his sleep with a flushed red face and said, 1942 01:54:45.399 --> 01:54:47.640 none has the right to be worship about Allah. Woe 1943 01:54:47.720 --> 01:54:51.600 to the Arabs from the great evil that is nearly 1944 01:54:51.640 --> 01:54:54.600 approaching them. Today a gap has been made in the 1945 01:54:54.720 --> 01:54:58.079 wall of gog and magogue like this, and he makes 1946 01:54:58.119 --> 01:55:01.680 a number. It was asked, shall we be destroyed though 1947 01:55:01.720 --> 01:55:04.439 they are righteous people among us? The prophet said, yes, 1948 01:55:04.520 --> 01:55:07.000 if evil is increased. So it is actually a wall, 1949 01:55:07.359 --> 01:55:09.600 and they're trying to dig through that wall. But it 1950 01:55:09.960 --> 01:55:12.800 gets even better, it gets even better. 1951 01:55:13.279 --> 01:55:16.479 This is bizarre, it is. 1952 01:55:17.720 --> 01:55:20.960 It is very bizarre, very very bizarre. 1953 01:55:23.239 --> 01:55:25.479 Yeah, it says the afflictions of the end of the world. 1954 01:55:25.680 --> 01:55:28.800 So does that mean that this wall in the hole 1955 01:55:29.199 --> 01:55:31.000 has that they're trying to dig has been going on 1956 01:55:31.239 --> 01:55:31.600 from that? 1957 01:55:33.239 --> 01:55:37.399 Yeah? Yeah, it gets very very ridiculous. So this is 1958 01:55:40.800 --> 01:55:46.680 a description about the end times, and it says he 1959 01:55:46.840 --> 01:55:48.960 mentioned the job. They said, I will descendhim, kill and 1960 01:55:49.000 --> 01:55:50.520 then people will return to their own nets and will 1961 01:55:50.520 --> 01:55:53.239 be confronted with Gog and Magogue, people who will swoop 1962 01:55:53.319 --> 01:55:56.439 down from every mound. They will not pass by any water, 1963 01:55:56.560 --> 01:55:59.079 but they will drink it by anything, but they will 1964 01:55:59.159 --> 01:56:02.560 spoil it. They will the people will besieged Allah, and 1965 01:56:03.800 --> 01:56:06.000 I will pray to Allah to kill them. The earth 1966 01:56:06.039 --> 01:56:09.680 will be filled with their stench and the people will 1967 01:56:09.680 --> 01:56:11.359 besieged Allah, and I will pray to a lot and 1968 01:56:11.439 --> 01:56:15.119 the sky will send down rain. Uh. Then the mountains 1969 01:56:15.119 --> 01:56:21.479 will turn to dust and the earth and this and that. Uh. Okay, 1970 01:56:21.680 --> 01:56:24.760 there's one description, but there's there's even more. It gets 1971 01:56:24.840 --> 01:56:29.560 very bizarre. It gets very very bizarre. So it describes, 1972 01:56:30.279 --> 01:56:35.359 I go back to the the things here ah Gog 1973 01:56:35.399 --> 01:56:36.720 and Magog. Gog and Magog. 1974 01:56:37.079 --> 01:56:39.199 Are they are these strong head eats. 1975 01:56:39.840 --> 01:56:45.439 Ah yeah yeah. Bugari is always strong, very reliable. Some 1976 01:56:45.600 --> 01:56:47.760 of them are from different sources, but they are also 1977 01:56:47.880 --> 01:56:55.359 marked as sh authentic. M Gog and Magogue dig every 1978 01:56:55.439 --> 01:56:57.399 day until when they can almost see the rays of 1979 01:56:57.439 --> 01:56:59.319 the sun. The one in charge of them says, go 1980 01:56:59.520 --> 01:57:02.680 back and we will dig it tomorrow. Then Allah puts 1981 01:57:02.720 --> 01:57:05.680 it back stronger than it was before. This will continue 1982 01:57:05.800 --> 01:57:08.159 until when their time has come. Allah wants to send 1983 01:57:08.199 --> 01:57:10.960 them against the people. They will dig until they can 1984 01:57:11.000 --> 01:57:12.680 almost see the rays of the sun. Then they were 1985 01:57:12.720 --> 01:57:14.159 the one who is in charge of them will say, 1986 01:57:14.239 --> 01:57:16.680 go back, and it will dig it tomorrow if Allah wills. 1987 01:57:17.000 --> 01:57:20.439 So they will say, if Allah wills, then they will 1988 01:57:20.479 --> 01:57:22.439 come back to it and it will be as they 1989 01:57:22.560 --> 01:57:24.479 left it. So they will dig and it will come 1990 01:57:24.520 --> 01:57:26.720 out to the people, and they will drink all the water. 1991 01:57:27.039 --> 01:57:30.119 People will fortify themselves. They will shoot their arrows towards 1992 01:57:30.159 --> 01:57:33.199 the sky, and they will come back with blood on them, 1993 01:57:33.560 --> 01:57:35.760 and they will say, we have defeated the people of 1994 01:57:35.840 --> 01:57:40.600 the earth and dominated the people of heaven. Then Allah 1995 01:57:40.640 --> 01:57:43.199 will send a worm in the names of their necks 1996 01:57:43.239 --> 01:57:45.520 and will kill them thereby, and so on and then 1997 01:57:45.760 --> 01:57:47.479 and then there will be a beast of the earth 1998 01:57:47.560 --> 01:57:51.720 that will be let's loose. This is all stun so. 1999 01:57:51.880 --> 01:57:55.560 This is another layer of what I would say from 2000 01:57:55.640 --> 01:57:59.319 the Christian biblical perspective of kind of cobbling together things 2001 01:57:59.520 --> 01:58:04.439 in Ezekiel that are kind of mysterious, and but I mean, 2002 01:58:04.479 --> 01:58:07.800 there's nothing, you know what there is. There's a text 2003 01:58:07.960 --> 01:58:13.119 in Ezekiel where Ezekiel is he is talking about the 2004 01:58:13.520 --> 01:58:17.000 Jews who were engaged in pagan worship and that they 2005 01:58:17.079 --> 01:58:21.239 had dug out under the wall of the temple a 2006 01:58:21.399 --> 01:58:26.319 secret place where they were worshiping like pagan gods. H. 2007 01:58:26.880 --> 01:58:30.640 So that's famously the same book where we get Gog 2008 01:58:30.760 --> 01:58:33.439 and Megod from the latter chapters of Ezekiel. I'm just speculating. 2009 01:58:33.640 --> 01:58:37.199 I'm thinking that they might have heard stories from Ezekiel 2010 01:58:37.279 --> 01:58:41.279 about digging through the wall, and then Muhammed is creatively 2011 01:58:41.399 --> 01:58:44.279 kind of cobbling this together and saying, this is an 2012 01:58:44.399 --> 01:58:47.119 end Times narrative of a wall that the Jews and 2013 01:58:47.199 --> 01:58:48.279 other people try to dig through. 2014 01:58:48.359 --> 01:58:53.159 You see what I'm saying, interesting perspective, just speculating. In 2015 01:58:53.199 --> 01:58:56.000 the ends, we cannot know what exactly happened there, But 2016 01:58:57.159 --> 01:59:00.079 as point of Chule, there is a lot of There 2017 01:59:00.079 --> 01:59:03.479 are lots of references in the Quran where it continues 2018 01:59:03.600 --> 01:59:07.920 saying and they say that these are just stories of 2019 01:59:08.000 --> 01:59:11.680 the old They say, he hears what he believes whatever 2020 01:59:11.760 --> 01:59:17.399 he says. So these are Koran verses about Muhammad, and 2021 01:59:17.520 --> 01:59:20.600 these Choran verses basically tell us that the people around 2022 01:59:20.720 --> 01:59:24.199 him kept accusing him of taking stories from others, from 2023 01:59:24.239 --> 01:59:29.000 people around him, from believing whatever people say, from making 2024 01:59:29.079 --> 01:59:34.600 things up, of being crazy and so on. So it's 2025 01:59:34.800 --> 01:59:38.760 we can speculate, but it looks like he just got 2026 01:59:38.840 --> 01:59:45.079 a lot of myths and some true stories, some falsehood 2027 01:59:45.159 --> 01:59:48.399 some complete misunderstandings and mixed them all together and presented 2028 01:59:48.479 --> 01:59:49.399 them as revelations. 2029 01:59:49.520 --> 01:59:51.279 Well, we have a lot of I mean that that 2030 01:59:51.479 --> 01:59:54.880 end time's kind of stuff there. I mean, I've spent 2031 01:59:54.960 --> 01:59:59.359 many years researching and reading and looking at evangelical approaches 2032 01:59:59.399 --> 02:00:02.079 to end time stuff, and I see a lot of 2033 02:00:02.119 --> 02:00:05.560 parallels there with that, where they'll kind of cobble together 2034 02:00:05.720 --> 02:00:09.640 a bunch of very ambiguous, you know, Old Testament passages, 2035 02:00:09.800 --> 02:00:13.119 especially Ezekiel's latter chapters about Gog and Magog, and it 2036 02:00:13.159 --> 02:00:15.840 gets kind of cobbled together in this jumbled narrative that 2037 02:00:15.880 --> 02:00:18.439 always talking about Russia, and it's talking about the end 2038 02:00:18.439 --> 02:00:20.880 of the world in China, And I mean, I don't 2039 02:00:20.960 --> 02:00:22.920 know what the end of the world is going to 2040 02:00:22.960 --> 02:00:25.640 be like, but I don't think that, you know, the 2041 02:00:25.720 --> 02:00:28.840 evangelicals kind of have the they don't know what they're 2042 02:00:28.840 --> 02:00:31.279 talking about, as I'm trying to say. And I sense 2043 02:00:31.399 --> 02:00:38.319 the same kind of extremities and cobbling together with Muhammad 2044 02:00:38.359 --> 02:00:42.279 in those passages that we see, for example, evangelicals doing 2045 02:00:42.399 --> 02:00:46.720 with passages from ezekiel Eschatology. 2046 02:00:46.239 --> 02:00:50.720 Is a very very interesting, very enticing thing, right two people. 2047 02:00:52.079 --> 02:00:55.560 It's talking about the end times, talking about the tribulations, 2048 02:00:55.600 --> 02:00:59.000 all the stuff that will happen as something that people 2049 02:00:59.000 --> 02:01:03.199 are always fascinated by. It's also a very easy topic. 2050 02:01:04.520 --> 02:01:08.039 I can imagine that in the seventh century in Arabia. 2051 02:01:08.880 --> 02:01:10.199 It would play well with an audience. 2052 02:01:10.319 --> 02:01:13.239 Yeah, where people do not study much, do not know much, 2053 02:01:13.279 --> 02:01:16.640 don't know anything. It is very easy to get everyone's 2054 02:01:16.680 --> 02:01:18.960 attention by talking about the end times and all the 2055 02:01:19.359 --> 02:01:22.399 fantastic stuff that will happen then. And it's it's quite 2056 02:01:22.800 --> 02:01:26.119 believable that Muhammad got his fair portion of that of 2057 02:01:26.239 --> 02:01:28.760 all of that and then turned to that into a 2058 02:01:28.920 --> 02:01:33.159 revelation which he then presents to his own audience. Because 2059 02:01:33.159 --> 02:01:35.840 it works so well, and there we have it. 2060 02:01:36.359 --> 02:01:39.000 It would be interesting to see a similar type of 2061 02:01:39.079 --> 02:01:43.960 breakdown of the conceptions of anti christ doj all and 2062 02:01:44.000 --> 02:01:45.520 all that kind of stuff that you that you were 2063 02:01:45.560 --> 02:01:48.359 referencing the way that you were talking about, how you know, 2064 02:01:48.720 --> 02:01:53.880 to Christianity, the resurrection has a really significant role. Antichrist 2065 02:01:53.960 --> 02:01:56.640 is not as significant, but it does play a key 2066 02:01:56.800 --> 02:01:59.439 role in some of the you know, apocalyptic texts of 2067 02:01:59.439 --> 02:01:59.840 the Bible. 2068 02:02:00.399 --> 02:02:03.000 I'm curious. I'd be interested to see in what way 2069 02:02:03.800 --> 02:02:07.640 it's misunderstood or sort of cobbled together in Islam because 2070 02:02:07.640 --> 02:02:09.840 I didn't I didn't know about those passages there with 2071 02:02:09.960 --> 02:02:11.439 your fascinating UH. 2072 02:02:12.000 --> 02:02:18.520 It's funny. The ja literally means deceiver or something along 2073 02:02:18.560 --> 02:02:24.199 along those lines. So the actual, the actual long form 2074 02:02:24.319 --> 02:02:28.920 name is which is the false Messiah or the deceiving Messiah. Uh. 2075 02:02:29.399 --> 02:02:33.000 It's directly adopted from Christianity but then presented in a 2076 02:02:33.319 --> 02:02:36.239 completely different way and then Islam. The narrative is basically 2077 02:02:36.359 --> 02:02:41.119 that the job, the false Messiah will come uh at 2078 02:02:41.159 --> 02:02:44.720 the end, and he will basically claim to be God. 2079 02:02:45.720 --> 02:02:47.800 Very interesting stuff. He will claim to be God, and 2080 02:02:47.880 --> 02:02:50.600 he will raise people from the dead. He will kill 2081 02:02:50.680 --> 02:02:52.399 somebody and raise him from the from the dead, and 2082 02:02:52.720 --> 02:02:53.720 he will be sound. 2083 02:02:53.680 --> 02:02:55.560 These sound like I mean, that sounds like Paul and 2084 02:02:55.600 --> 02:02:58.840 Second Thesalonians, and it sounds like chapters of the Revelation. 2085 02:02:59.319 --> 02:03:03.279 Yeah, and he will he will claim to be Allah, 2086 02:03:03.760 --> 02:03:06.840 and people will follow him because he will be so 2087 02:03:07.920 --> 02:03:11.560 so so amazing. But the true believers, they will immediately 2088 02:03:11.640 --> 02:03:14.319 recognize him and they will not follow him. And then 2089 02:03:14.560 --> 02:03:17.399 at the same time, Jesus will come down from the 2090 02:03:17.479 --> 02:03:19.279 sky as a Muslim and. 2091 02:03:21.039 --> 02:03:24.159 So this this is crib from the apocalypse, and he. 2092 02:03:24.159 --> 02:03:26.640 Will he will basically fight, fight them, fight to the 2093 02:03:26.760 --> 02:03:30.640 jar and and then pray together with the Muslims. And 2094 02:03:31.560 --> 02:03:33.399 according to the Hadith, he will come and break the 2095 02:03:33.479 --> 02:03:34.840 cross and kill the pig. 2096 02:03:37.000 --> 02:03:38.600 And break the Christian cross. 2097 02:03:39.000 --> 02:03:40.039 Yeah, break the Christians. 2098 02:03:40.039 --> 02:03:40.600 Who's the pig? 2099 02:03:41.680 --> 02:03:44.279 Uh, the pig is just killed, he says, kill the swine. 2100 02:03:44.279 --> 02:03:47.359 That's what Muhammed said. Kill the pig again. He just 2101 02:03:47.439 --> 02:03:49.680 he just kills the pigs and for no reason. 2102 02:03:50.399 --> 02:03:54.359 And wait, literal pigs are like the people are called pigs. 2103 02:03:54.800 --> 02:03:58.399 No, it's it's it's literal pigs. So he comes, and. 2104 02:04:00.079 --> 02:04:00.920 Surely you're joking. 2105 02:04:01.680 --> 02:04:03.119 He will come and he'll be like, don't eat this. 2106 02:04:03.439 --> 02:04:04.319 I don't know why exactly. 2107 02:04:04.359 --> 02:04:06.399 He's gonna becaus gone clean. 2108 02:04:06.760 --> 02:04:09.439 I guess so. But so what Momma says is he 2109 02:04:09.479 --> 02:04:12.680 will come and he will break the cross and kill 2110 02:04:12.760 --> 02:04:14.439 the pig. I will prove to you that I'm not 2111 02:04:14.560 --> 02:04:15.239 joking about it. 2112 02:04:17.319 --> 02:04:17.960 I just I guess. 2113 02:04:18.000 --> 02:04:19.720 I just keep wanting giving the benefit of the doubt 2114 02:04:19.760 --> 02:04:22.760 and think, well, surely they mean like the swine symbolic 2115 02:04:22.880 --> 02:04:30.640 of evil people. But you're saying, actually just kill Well, 2116 02:04:30.680 --> 02:04:33.119 I guess at the end of the world, those pigs 2117 02:04:33.199 --> 02:04:34.199 do have to get dealt with. 2118 02:04:34.399 --> 02:04:37.760 I mean, like, yeah, somebody has to do something about this. 2119 02:04:44.439 --> 02:04:45.319 Well, okay, there you go. 2120 02:04:45.960 --> 02:04:48.800 Yeah, so a lot of messages at the r will 2121 02:04:48.840 --> 02:04:50.840 not be established until the Son of Mary the sense 2122 02:04:50.880 --> 02:04:54.039 amongst you, as a just ruler. He will break the cross, 2123 02:04:54.199 --> 02:04:55.840 kill the pigs, and abolished. 2124 02:04:57.560 --> 02:05:00.279 Do they have like explanations of oh, this symbol lies 2125 02:05:01.119 --> 02:05:02.720 the unbelievers or something. 2126 02:05:02.560 --> 02:05:07.119 Or I haven't looked in length into this, but I 2127 02:05:07.359 --> 02:05:09.319 know that it's that It's like the explanation is just 2128 02:05:09.600 --> 02:05:12.520 that it's it's it's actually pigs, and the cross is 2129 02:05:12.600 --> 02:05:15.800 actual cross, and he will he will literally break it 2130 02:05:15.920 --> 02:05:20.039 to confirm that the cross belief is false. Yeah. Yeah, 2131 02:05:20.159 --> 02:05:24.199 so these are the priorities of Jesus when he comes back. 2132 02:05:24.520 --> 02:05:27.600 Well, I guess if look, if Jesus does descend and 2133 02:05:28.840 --> 02:05:30.840 break the cross and destroy the kill all the pigs, 2134 02:05:30.920 --> 02:05:32.399 I guess I'll have to be a Muslim at that 2135 02:05:33.560 --> 02:05:34.520 that happens. 2136 02:05:34.279 --> 02:05:39.319 Right, especially if you see him kill the pig. I 2137 02:05:39.560 --> 02:05:45.119 can't believe that was actually correct. So wow, that's messed up. 2138 02:05:45.319 --> 02:05:50.000 That's crazy, all right, I mean, uh, really instructive, instructive 2139 02:05:50.039 --> 02:05:52.520 and insightful talk. I always enjoyed talking to you. It's 2140 02:05:52.560 --> 02:05:54.880 really funny too, by the way, same thank you for 2141 02:05:54.960 --> 02:05:56.960 all that that insight there. You always learn from you. 2142 02:05:57.000 --> 02:05:57.600 I appreciate that. 2143 02:05:58.199 --> 02:06:00.239 Thank you so much. I I really I of the 2144 02:06:00.279 --> 02:06:02.840 debate that you had. It was like your opening was 2145 02:06:04.319 --> 02:06:06.720 an education for Daniel, and then he came and just 2146 02:06:06.840 --> 02:06:09.560 messed it all up with this very primitive approach to 2147 02:06:10.159 --> 02:06:14.920 the scripture. So mad respect for that as well. And 2148 02:06:15.279 --> 02:06:16.760 I'll always be happy to have you here. 2149 02:06:16.880 --> 02:06:19.760 Jay, absolutely, yeah, thank you. I'm glad to be glad 2150 02:06:19.760 --> 02:06:22.720 to be back on and anytime you want to chat again, 2151 02:06:23.039 --> 02:06:24.760 I'm down absolutely. 2152 02:06:25.640 --> 02:06:29.279 Thanks everyone for joining. Have a fantastic day. I'll see 2153 02:06:29.319 --> 02:06:34.399 you soon and stay away from Islam, all right. 2154 02:06:34.479 --> 02:06:34.920 Thanks man,