1
00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,439
Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome. This is the Apostate Profit. How

2
00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:10,319
is everyone doing? I am here today with Jay Dyer,

3
00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:14,280
a very very special guest. H Jay, do you like

4
00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:15,159
my intro music?

5
00:01:16,599 --> 00:01:16,920
Speaker 2: I do.

6
00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:18,719
Speaker 3: I'm having to turn you off because I had you

7
00:01:18,799 --> 00:01:21,760
already going in the background, so yeah, I'm getting a

8
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,200
double dose of you and the music, and so it's

9
00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:24,920
like a remix.

10
00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,519
Speaker 1: But yeah, nice, amazing, that's amazing. That must sound even better. Uh.

11
00:01:30,239 --> 00:01:33,319
This is basically like the Islamic humming that they always

12
00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:39,159
play pathetic. I thought remixed it made much better. It

13
00:01:39,159 --> 00:01:40,959
would be much better if it always sounded like this,

14
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:41,879
but they just don't get it.

15
00:01:44,359 --> 00:01:48,560
Speaker 2: So I'm good. Yeah.

16
00:01:48,959 --> 00:01:51,799
Speaker 3: You know, we had a good chat the other day

17
00:01:51,959 --> 00:01:54,640
on my channel, and you brought up a lot of

18
00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,599
good issues and kind of probably stuff that was old

19
00:01:57,599 --> 00:02:00,120
hat to you. But it's good to go to that

20
00:02:00,159 --> 00:02:02,120
stuff because you know, maybe a lot of my audience

21
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,200
might not know a lot of that kind of old

22
00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,159
hat classic stuff that you know. So yeah, you brought

23
00:02:07,159 --> 00:02:09,319
a lot of interesting insights. One thing I'd like to

24
00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,159
say from the outset was a lot of people got

25
00:02:12,199 --> 00:02:15,759
mad or fussed. A lot of Muslims and even a

26
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,879
few Christians that you and I would have these conversations.

27
00:02:19,759 --> 00:02:22,960
And it's odd to me because, first thing, you know,

28
00:02:23,319 --> 00:02:26,639
whether you're Muslim or Atheist or Christian or whatever, we

29
00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:28,879
should all be aware of fallacies and what they are,

30
00:02:29,479 --> 00:02:33,680
and the genetic fallacy is one of the more well

31
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:38,240
known fallacies. Because it doesn't matter what source an argument

32
00:02:38,319 --> 00:02:42,039
comes from, the argument either stands or falls on its own.

33
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,520
So it doesn't matter who says the argument. If Judas

34
00:02:45,599 --> 00:02:48,520
says an argument has nothing to do with his betrayal,

35
00:02:48,599 --> 00:02:52,560
whether that argument is true or false, right likewise, and

36
00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:53,759
you would think people would know this.

37
00:02:55,199 --> 00:02:55,759
Speaker 2: Likewise.

38
00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:57,560
Speaker 3: The only case that I can think of in which

39
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,719
we would consider bodies character in an argument is if

40
00:03:02,759 --> 00:03:05,639
the argument was about that person's character, or if they

41
00:03:05,759 --> 00:03:07,800
committed a crime or something like that. In that case,

42
00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,680
it would be appropriate to investigate their character. But the

43
00:03:10,759 --> 00:03:16,319
basis of their arguments, the validity the arguments themselves, none

44
00:03:16,319 --> 00:03:17,879
of them have any None of that has anything to

45
00:03:17,879 --> 00:03:23,439
do with the person's character and their beliefs. And it's

46
00:03:23,439 --> 00:03:25,800
odd to me that people don't understand that. But as

47
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,240
I'm beginning to realize with I think this is like

48
00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:33,520
my fifth or sixth Islamic debate fallacies seem to be

49
00:03:33,599 --> 00:03:35,680
something that a lot of Muslims are not aware of.

50
00:03:36,479 --> 00:03:41,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, precisely, I agree with everything that's out there pretty much.

51
00:03:42,159 --> 00:03:44,280
And you will see this every single time when you

52
00:03:44,319 --> 00:03:48,080
have a debate with Muslims. Most Muslims, the most apologists

53
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:53,360
you will encounterar the same complaints all the time. If

54
00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,319
you are if you genuinely want you to discuss this topic,

55
00:03:56,319 --> 00:03:58,520
then you shouldn't talk to this person, shouldn't talk to

56
00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,000
that person, shouldn't talk to this other guy. UH, only

57
00:04:02,039 --> 00:04:05,840
talk to us, only discuss with us. People who criticize

58
00:04:05,879 --> 00:04:09,639
Islam are unreliable and if you talk to them, that

59
00:04:09,879 --> 00:04:14,360
means that you are automatically marked as somebody who has

60
00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,759
no genuine interest in debating, and you must be shunned

61
00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:22,480
at all costs. And that's understandable considering that UH, criticizing

62
00:04:22,759 --> 00:04:25,920
Islam is not allowed, and especially me as an as

63
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,160
an ex Muslim, I'm not even supposed to exist in

64
00:04:28,199 --> 00:04:31,480
Dynal Kikichu's worldview. Like he told me when we when

65
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,560
we were talking, he basically told me that he thinks

66
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:40,600
I should be executed for my leaving Islam. So it

67
00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,879
is really it is. Islam is unique, and Muslims are

68
00:04:43,959 --> 00:04:48,959
unique in that way where they very often just have

69
00:04:49,079 --> 00:04:55,879
to invoke that fallacy without understanding the problem that it

70
00:04:56,399 --> 00:05:00,759
that it that it presents. As as said, when we

71
00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,160
talk about the whole issue with the name of God

72
00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:10,639
Yahweh and Islam versus versus Abrahamic biblical religion, he chooses

73
00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,160
to now completely ignore the points even when you bring

74
00:05:14,199 --> 00:05:18,879
it up simply because because you reference me, or because

75
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,000
you make a reference to what he said to me.

76
00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,079
And when he talked to me about it, he clearly

77
00:05:24,319 --> 00:05:27,360
had no clue and later he denied what he actually said.

78
00:05:27,639 --> 00:05:30,759
He basically blasphemed and then later denied what he actually said.

79
00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,040
Speaker 3: It was surprising because it's I mean, everybody can see

80
00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,560
the clip, and you know, he clearly says it's a

81
00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,519
pagan name, and then when asked about that, he says,

82
00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,480
I never said that. So you know, it's like this

83
00:05:45,519 --> 00:05:48,360
is multiple times now where I'm really questioning, you know,

84
00:05:48,439 --> 00:05:49,399
does he is he really?

85
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:52,120
Speaker 2: Is he disingenuous?

86
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,439
Speaker 3: Right, because I mean, if you have a person on

87
00:05:55,519 --> 00:05:58,240
record saying it, it's really difficult to then rewrite the

88
00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,680
history and say no, I never said that. But you

89
00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,120
did say that, so at least you would. You could

90
00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,120
either own up to it and say, well, I said that,

91
00:06:06,319 --> 00:06:09,160
but here's what I meant, or here's a clarification, but

92
00:06:09,199 --> 00:06:13,399
the outright just so I never said that. I'm noticing

93
00:06:13,439 --> 00:06:16,720
a pattern of And this is not to say that

94
00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,600
Christians are always honest.

95
00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,279
Speaker 2: People in any position can be dishonest. You can be

96
00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,800
an atheist be dishonest. You be a Christian be dishonest.

97
00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,360
Speaker 3: You could be a Muslim and be dishonest. But there

98
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,120
seems to be, as you noted, a kind of a

99
00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:33,879
tendency to shun the rational discourse, shun the logical argumentation.

100
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,480
And again I'm not an expert on Islam. I'm still

101
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,720
in the process of learning. To me, it looks like

102
00:06:40,319 --> 00:06:43,639
there's a tendency to when you have this going back

103
00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,959
to the original pure Islam, which is what my understanding

104
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,079
of Daniel's school, that what it represents, there's a tendency

105
00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:57,399
again to have to shun logic, to have to shun argumentation,

106
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,279
because that's seen as later development. Lam is a later development,

107
00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,120
and that might lead to problems, right, because there might

108
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,720
be questions that are not permitted to ask. I remember

109
00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:12,120
in the when I was prepared for the Asraa Rashid debate,

110
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,199
we found some of those old Sunni texts which, even

111
00:07:16,199 --> 00:07:18,360
though they were engaged in kalam one are the texts

112
00:07:18,439 --> 00:07:21,519
dealt with the names of a law of the attributes.

113
00:07:22,319 --> 00:07:26,920
And there was a point where the question is raised, well,

114
00:07:27,759 --> 00:07:31,079
how do we reconcile the fact of God of Allah's

115
00:07:31,199 --> 00:07:35,759
pure unity with the fact that we're naming many names

116
00:07:35,839 --> 00:07:38,759
and what about the distinction between the names? And at

117
00:07:38,759 --> 00:07:41,199
a certain point it says it is not permitted to

118
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,439
ask this question. So it's just sort of like you

119
00:07:44,519 --> 00:07:47,360
can debate and discuss to a certain point, then it's

120
00:07:47,439 --> 00:07:50,720
not permitted. And as you were saying, the idea that

121
00:07:50,759 --> 00:07:55,720
there's this unity about Islamic theology is not true. At

122
00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,319
one point in the debate, you know, Daniel's trying to

123
00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:02,720
say Christians disagree, there's debates, there's there's that Wait a minute, I.

124
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,079
Speaker 2: Mean, you guys don't agree.

125
00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,000
Speaker 3: You guys have all kinds of So in other words,

126
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,199
if disagreements made a position true or false, no position

127
00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,680
would be true false. I mean yeah, they would need

128
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,079
because none of them would be true. Because now if

129
00:08:18,079 --> 00:08:20,759
some sort of majority opinion or if the fact that

130
00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,040
we have, you know, thirty percent of the Islamic schools

131
00:08:24,079 --> 00:08:27,319
agree about this position, sixty percent agree with this position.

132
00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,120
I mean, none of that has anything to do with

133
00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,879
whether it's true false. It's another fallacy to appeal to majority,

134
00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,679
appeal to consensus. You can certainly bring in experts, but

135
00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:40,960
expert testimony itself doesn't necessarily prove a thing.

136
00:08:41,519 --> 00:08:43,000
Speaker 2: And so I just over and.

137
00:08:42,879 --> 00:08:45,080
Speaker 3: Over and overhere to hear these appeals that were very

138
00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,399
similar to you know, fallacies that I've seen in other

139
00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,159
debates that when I would bring them up, you could

140
00:08:51,159 --> 00:08:54,759
tell that he didn't even know what what I was referencing.

141
00:08:54,799 --> 00:08:55,279
What do you mean?

142
00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, there was this very awkward moment that that

143
00:09:00,519 --> 00:09:03,519
I saw, actually multiple awkward moments about the very same

144
00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,639
thing during the debate that you had with Daniel Kikitche,

145
00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:10,559
which was where you brought up the idea that the

146
00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:15,440
Quran tells Jews and Christians that they should read their

147
00:09:15,519 --> 00:09:18,279
their own book, and it says that their book is

148
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:24,320
is confirmed. But if you go to that book, then

149
00:09:24,399 --> 00:09:27,519
you have the problem of somebody like Daniel Kikitchu saying, okay,

150
00:09:27,519 --> 00:09:30,039
but those books are invalid because they have contradictions and

151
00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,600
they were corrupted, and so you are caught in this

152
00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,200
whole in this whole dilemma. Okay, are those books now

153
00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,080
confirmed and authentic or are they not? And he then

154
00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,919
comes in and and and and presents this position, which

155
00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,519
is the best he can do, because it is just

156
00:09:45,279 --> 00:09:47,679
it's it's a whole problem that Muslims can't get out of.

157
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,000
He then tells you that when the Jews and Christians

158
00:09:51,039 --> 00:09:55,200
go to those books, uh, they will see contradictions in

159
00:09:55,279 --> 00:10:00,240
those books with monotheism as presented in Islam, which is

160
00:10:00,279 --> 00:10:02,440
why they will understand that those books are wrong. Okay,

161
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,799
but that means that they have to evaluate that whole

162
00:10:04,799 --> 00:10:09,080
situation from its club's perspective, which doesn't make sense. Yeah. Right.

163
00:10:09,399 --> 00:10:13,120
Speaker 3: If what's in question is the continuity of the Quran

164
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,360
with previous revelation, then I asked a very simple question

165
00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,200
to Daniel, which was, what is the epistemic principle that

166
00:10:21,279 --> 00:10:25,799
you have that tells you when the Old Testament is

167
00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,679
true and when it's false? And he says the Quran.

168
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,080
But the thing is that that's what's in question, So

169
00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,279
you can't just appeal to the thing any question. When

170
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,120
we're asking about prior revelation. Now you could say, but Jay,

171
00:10:38,159 --> 00:10:39,480
what you did in the day, He said, But Jay,

172
00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:42,039
you you appealed to the Old Testament too, in terms

173
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:43,919
of your position, Yeah, but I don't argue that the.

174
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,159
Speaker 2: Old Testament has a lot of contradictions.

175
00:10:46,279 --> 00:10:48,960
Speaker 3: So if I thought the Old Testament had contradictions and

176
00:10:49,039 --> 00:10:52,320
Christianity was the new revelation that replaced it, I would

177
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,600
be in the same boat as Daniel's position. You see, yeah,

178
00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:57,519
because you could say, well, you know, the New Testament

179
00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,559
appeals to the Old Testament, right, but it ever makes

180
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:05,639
the appeal that the Old Testament is true and valid,

181
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,679
but it also has contradictions.

182
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:09,080
Speaker 2: That's Daniel's position.

183
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,120
Speaker 3: Daniel's position that the Old Testament is true and valid

184
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,200
because the Koran says so, however, there's all these passages

185
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,919
that don't teach the pure mono theism of Islam. And

186
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,480
I still have that drawing here that I had drawn

187
00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,960
up the things whiteboard here. So these are just examples

188
00:11:24,039 --> 00:11:27,120
of theophanies where we find real distinctions in God in

189
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:28,679
the Old Testament. And there's more.

190
00:11:28,799 --> 00:11:31,519
Speaker 2: This is just one list that I could fit on

191
00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:32,399
one board.

192
00:11:32,759 --> 00:11:35,279
Speaker 3: And Daniel says, yeah, those are problem texts that are

193
00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,720
all contradictions. Now, wait a minute. That's why I asked

194
00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,639
the question, Well, then, what's the epistemic principle that tells

195
00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:44,879
you when you go through the Old Testament? Oh, this

196
00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,480
is the true verse false, verse true, verse false, verse,

197
00:11:47,799 --> 00:11:50,759
this chapter true, this chapter false, this chunk true, this

198
00:11:50,879 --> 00:11:55,960
chunk false. And the principle was whatever's consistent with the Quran.

199
00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,200
But the question was, how do we know that the

200
00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:02,120
Qoran is can assistant with prior revelation given the fact

201
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,519
that the Quran says you can validate this with the

202
00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,080
books given to the Jews and the Christians. You see,

203
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,360
this is, like you said, it's an irresolvable dilemma. And

204
00:12:12,399 --> 00:12:14,159
that's why I had to sort of draw this out

205
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,879
for him on the small board, what is your episode

206
00:12:17,879 --> 00:12:23,639
of principle similarity to the Old Testament? And then eventually

207
00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,639
ended up saying, well, you just you just look and

208
00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,960
see with your eyes what's consistent with with what's not consistent?

209
00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,480
You see, So you just look at your eyes. So

210
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:33,360
can I do not appeal to the same thing of

211
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:34,720
just looking with my eyes.

212
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,279
Speaker 1: It's also extremely funny because the Quran clearly and explicitly

213
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:44,000
says about the Jews and Christians. It says, why do

214
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,000
they come to you when when they have, you know,

215
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,120
what was revealed to them, basically saying that they should

216
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,240
just go back and read their books. But that doesn't

217
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:59,679
make any sense. If you once again present this whole problem,

218
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,840
it again goes into this circular nonsense that he cannot

219
00:13:02,879 --> 00:13:05,200
get out of. What are they supposed to do? They

220
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,120
are supposed to Jews and Christians are supposed to go

221
00:13:07,159 --> 00:13:08,919
and read their own scriptures. They don't supposed to come

222
00:13:08,919 --> 00:13:11,039
to Muhammad. Okay, if they are supposed to read their

223
00:13:11,039 --> 00:13:13,039
own scriptures, then they will be educated by their own

224
00:13:13,039 --> 00:13:18,440
scriptures on their own beliefs and on how their beliefs are,

225
00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,600
on what they are supposed to believe according to their

226
00:13:20,639 --> 00:13:24,799
own scriptures, which if they do that will eventually contradict

227
00:13:24,799 --> 00:13:27,759
with what Islam Telstone. But then Daniel Kikichu and other

228
00:13:27,799 --> 00:13:29,840
Muslims come out and say, well, no, no, no, no,

229
00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,519
you can't take those things in there that contradict with

230
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,639
real belief because you know those are in values. You

231
00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,320
take the rest. Okay, what is the rest? Well, whatever

232
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:40,440
agrees with my beliefs.

233
00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mentioned that he couldn't see that that

234
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,559
was a circle. Now, if he affirm circular logic, then

235
00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:49,360
I would have I mean he would That would have

236
00:13:49,399 --> 00:13:51,720
been more honest and he could have like maybe gone

237
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:52,440
in another direction.

238
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:53,440
Speaker 2: But of course he didn't want.

239
00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:57,720
Speaker 3: To do that because typically when Muslims do accept varying

240
00:13:57,759 --> 00:14:03,039
degrees of philosophy, whichever school they're in, it's usually kind

241
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,639
of a very broad stroke. For example, I have Azar

242
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,519
Rashid's book. When we did our debate, I got his book,

243
00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:16,120
and his approach to epistemology was just a very basic empiricism.

244
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,039
So you know, if you want to have that school

245
00:14:19,039 --> 00:14:23,440
and that approach, that's what that's fine. But anybody that

246
00:14:23,519 --> 00:14:28,960
does that's going to have to deal with the outworkings

247
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,279
of adopting that position. So if you have a very

248
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,120
basic empiricist view, you're going to have a hard time

249
00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:39,279
justifying or given account for questions like what about a

250
00:14:39,279 --> 00:14:42,320
circular argument that you're presenting about the relationship with the

251
00:14:42,399 --> 00:14:47,320
krant prior revelation you can't affirm just from a strictly

252
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,919
philosophical perspective, You're not going to be able to affirm

253
00:14:50,039 --> 00:14:54,159
circular argumentation if you're an empiricist, unless you just want

254
00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:56,159
to say that my position is just self evident. But

255
00:14:56,159 --> 00:14:58,000
if he wants to go that route, then I can

256
00:14:58,039 --> 00:15:00,360
just say, okay, well my position is self evident if

257
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,320
everybody can just appeal to their own internal self evidence,

258
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,360
which I don't believe.

259
00:15:06,039 --> 00:15:07,200
Speaker 2: We should do in a debate.

260
00:15:07,639 --> 00:15:09,799
Speaker 3: But if you do that, it kind of makes debate

261
00:15:09,879 --> 00:15:12,279
no longer possible because the opponent, you see, can appeal

262
00:15:12,279 --> 00:15:14,120
to the same thing I walk can just appeal to

263
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,000
my all my principles are just quote self evident, right,

264
00:15:17,039 --> 00:15:19,600
So so that's not usually the best. That's not usually

265
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,120
how debates go, unless you're debating something like, you know,

266
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,200
some obscure topic like transcendental arguments or circular argumentation itself.

267
00:15:27,279 --> 00:15:27,840
Speaker 1: Is it possible?

268
00:15:27,919 --> 00:15:28,759
Speaker 2: Is it not possible?

269
00:15:29,279 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 3: Most debates are not going in that way. And that's

270
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,320
why you know, cor three says there is no God

271
00:15:35,399 --> 00:15:39,120
but He the living, the self subsisting. He sent down

272
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,440
the book that is truth upon the confirming what it

273
00:15:42,519 --> 00:15:45,799
was before he sent the Torah and the Ngel, the Gospel,

274
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,720
and it is the guidance to mankind. Nothing about but

275
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,480
it is half corrupted. You see, Oh, it is seventy

276
00:15:54,519 --> 00:15:57,159
percent corrupted. And that's the thing, is that when you

277
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,639
actually look at as and I haven't. Let's just take

278
00:16:00,679 --> 00:16:03,559
the first ten stories, for example. I went through the

279
00:16:03,559 --> 00:16:06,279
first ten, and I got a giant list of all

280
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:11,759
of the references in the first ten to sections of

281
00:16:11,799 --> 00:16:15,639
the Torah and the profits, right, And here's the thing,

282
00:16:15,919 --> 00:16:17,320
this is what I was trying to get it. I

283
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,120
don't think Daniel got this point. I was trying to

284
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,919
get it across, which is that you got giant portions

285
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:29,120
that are referred to referenced giant stories, the Exodusk story,

286
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:34,200
the conquests of David, different stories in the Book of Genesis,

287
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:39,600
for example, the creation narrative is largely affirmed. So if

288
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,799
we're going to admit that these giant portions of the

289
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,440
Torah are correct, then now we've got a problem of

290
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,720
giant portions not correct. Right, So it doesn't really matter

291
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,080
what percent did you want to say. Let's say you

292
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,320
think seventy percent of it's true and thirty percent is false.

293
00:16:56,399 --> 00:16:58,200
Or maybe you think thirty percent of the Old Testament

294
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:03,759
the profits is true and seventy percent is false. Either way,

295
00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:07,480
you're stuck in the same kind of bind. Because number one,

296
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:13,000
the Quran actually says, as you noted, that it's not consistent. Right,

297
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,400
they'll excuse me that the Old Testament is not full

298
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,480
of errors. That's a later argument that they may And

299
00:17:19,799 --> 00:17:23,119
when it does mentions, I think, like you said, when

300
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,200
it does mention that they perverted the message, it says

301
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,680
they perverted the message with their mouth. It doesn't say

302
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,599
the text is perverted. So there's not an intertextual argument

303
00:17:34,599 --> 00:17:38,440
that I'm aware of that argues that the Torah and

304
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,319
the Gospel are full of errors. This is a later argument.

305
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,559
This is why they go to talk about going to

306
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,119
non believers. Well, they ran to you know, bart Ermin

307
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,920
and people for me for so long until bart Erman

308
00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:55,039
said that now there is historical evidence for Christ and crucifixion,

309
00:17:55,039 --> 00:17:56,519
and then I think they wanted to get rid of

310
00:17:56,759 --> 00:17:59,920
using bart Ermin because again, so it's like this double state,

311
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,759
and is what I'm trying to say, there's a double

312
00:18:01,759 --> 00:18:06,200
standard of you know, I can't talk to you because

313
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,240
you don't have the same religion as me. And it's like,

314
00:18:09,319 --> 00:18:11,000
but it does have something to do with the arguments.

315
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,519
But the arguments are true or false regardless of the person.

316
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,559
But to go back to your point, like you know,

317
00:18:17,599 --> 00:18:20,319
I'm just trying to stress that. Look, if you're gonna

318
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,920
say that a giant portion of the prior revelation is false,

319
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,640
which is what his position amounts to, then you're gonna

320
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,480
have to give an account for why does the Quran

321
00:18:30,599 --> 00:18:35,039
then assume many of these stories, oftentimes in passing, So

322
00:18:35,079 --> 00:18:38,599
it'll just reference an event or a person, right, And

323
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,319
how else would we know the context and the meaning

324
00:18:41,319 --> 00:18:44,240
and the background of that person without going to the

325
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:49,000
prior revelation which predates them, It predates the Koran, predates

326
00:18:49,039 --> 00:18:49,960
the Quran, and isn't.

327
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 1: And we have some very very explicit Quran versus like

328
00:18:53,599 --> 00:18:57,400
chapter five, verse forty seven, which say, and let the

329
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,480
people of the Gospel, Christians judge by what Allah has

330
00:19:01,599 --> 00:19:04,640
revealed therein, And whoever does not judge by what Allah

331
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,079
is revealed, then those are the defiantly disobedient. So according

332
00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,680
to that verse itself, who are what are Christians supposed

333
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,720
to judge by by the Gospel, by what was revealed

334
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,000
to them by In the Quran's understanding, and it's understanding,

335
00:19:20,079 --> 00:19:23,480
the Gospel is basically a revelation that was revealed to Jesus,

336
00:19:23,599 --> 00:19:25,400
like the Quran was revealed to Ahamed. It has a

337
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,559
very it has a big misunderstanding of what the Gospel

338
00:19:28,599 --> 00:19:33,079
actually is, and it tells the Christians explicitly they are

339
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,759
that they should simply stand by and judge by what

340
00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:40,160
the Gospel says. And there is no single reference throughout

341
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,640
the Qur'an which explicitly tells you that those books are

342
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,079
no longer valued, that those books have been corrupted, that

343
00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,200
they have been corrupted into oblivion. Such a mindset only

344
00:19:50,839 --> 00:19:56,039
only emerged over the centuries much later, I think, as

345
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,680
late as like the eleventh or eleventh century or twelfth

346
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,839
century it was. It became entrenched into Islamic thinking that

347
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:09,880
those that those books, the Torah and the Ingia as

348
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,799
they refer to them, meaning the Gospel and the Torah,

349
00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:18,440
were overall corrupted. But that is just that is just

350
00:20:19,079 --> 00:20:21,160
as it seems, an explanation that they came up with

351
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:26,920
because they could not explain the abundance of contradictions between

352
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,359
the Bible and the Quran, and contradictions on such a

353
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:36,680
level that you cannot possibly believe that both of those

354
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,799
sources as they are today came from the same God.

355
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,519
You cannot hold on to of them at the same time,

356
00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:48,319
it is simply impossible. And I would say, it's like

357
00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:52,960
this whole game of those books are corrupt. They're not

358
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,839
in their original form. They are only consistent wherever they

359
00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:00,319
are consistent with my beliefs. That would be like if

360
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,319
you went out there, like if Christians went out there,

361
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,079
or if I if anybody went out there and said,

362
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,160
you know, Mohammed was actually a righteous guy. He was

363
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,440
led and he was leading people to the belief in

364
00:21:13,599 --> 00:21:18,880
one God. But his followers corrupted his sayings and corrupted

365
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,960
the actual Qur'an, which was full of truth. And when

366
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,559
Mulim's then asked well how can you improve this, did

367
00:21:26,599 --> 00:21:30,640
you simply say, well, everything that Muhammad said, everything in

368
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:35,839
the Quran that agrees with our Abrahamic beliefs is correct,

369
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,200
and everything else that disagrees is obviously corrupted. And there

370
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,319
is your proof. Now let go of your Islamic beliefs

371
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,680
and come to the truth. Put them in the same position.

372
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. I mean two points there that come to mind.

373
00:21:50,559 --> 00:21:52,359
I want to read that sort of five. I'm glad

374
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,640
you mentioned it because it's really strong. It says, how

375
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,599
is it that they come to deeper judgment when they

376
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,160
have the Torah, wherein is God judgment. Even after that

377
00:22:02,279 --> 00:22:04,519
they turn their backs and they are not believers. Truly,

378
00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:07,680
we sent down the Torah they're in as guidance, where

379
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,519
in His guidance and light by what the prophets who

380
00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:14,440
submitted unto God judged those who are Jews, as did

381
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,400
the sages and the rabbis, in accordance with such with

382
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,480
God's books, as they were bidden to preserve it, and

383
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,680
to which they were witnesses. So I fear not mankind,

384
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,960
fear me. My signs are for sell, not my signs

385
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,319
for a paltry price, where whosoever judge is not by

386
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,440
what God has sent down. So like as you said,

387
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,119
he goes on to say in the Footsteps, we sent

388
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,279
Jesus confirming the Torah, and we gave him that.

389
00:22:42,319 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 2: Gospel confirming the Torah.

390
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,839
Speaker 3: So the assumption of these texts is that there's continuity

391
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,799
not just with the Old Testament of the Koran, but

392
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,480
between the Torah and what Jesus said.

393
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:52,599
Speaker 2: Right.

394
00:22:53,079 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 3: But when we go to what Jesus said, of course,

395
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,400
there's a lot of problem texts, such as the entire

396
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,799
Gospel of John, which is why usually Islamic apologetics just says,

397
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,720
that's one we throw out. So now we're throwing out

398
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,480
entire books because as you pointed out, well wait a minute,

399
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,359
the kron speaks as if they thought the Gospel or

400
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,759
the nGael was this book that Jesus got, like like

401
00:23:14,839 --> 00:23:19,240
Muhammad got the Quran. It's not. It's a recorded it's

402
00:23:19,279 --> 00:23:24,440
the disciples recording this oral message and then passing on

403
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,480
various texts which give, in my view, a coherent narrative.

404
00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:33,440
So it's just amazing that this it's not a very

405
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,759
complex argument. I mean, it might be complex if you're

406
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,079
not used to the Old Testament, or if you don't

407
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,720
know actually what's in the Torah and the prophets in

408
00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:43,759
the Bible, But if you actually go and look and see,

409
00:23:44,319 --> 00:23:47,279
it's pretty clear. Now. The other thing that Daniel referenced

410
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,119
was the text in Jeremiah, and he didn't even get

411
00:23:50,279 --> 00:23:54,000
that the This was actually called out by one of

412
00:23:54,039 --> 00:23:57,319
the super chat questions I think if I recall, but

413
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,440
he said, oh, well, you see, Jeremiah says that the

414
00:23:59,519 --> 00:24:03,279
scribe have perverted the text. It doesn't say the scribes

415
00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:08,039
perverted the Torah. It says that the scribes perverted their text,

416
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,799
meaning they're what I would say. When Jesus rebukes the Pharisees,

417
00:24:11,799 --> 00:24:14,319
he says, you've added things to the commands of God.

418
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,720
And it doesn't mean that the Torah was essentially altered,

419
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,160
because Jesus says in the same Gospel that the scriptures

420
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,480
cannot be broken. He presupposes and cites the Torah at

421
00:24:24,559 --> 00:24:28,960
length throughout the Gospels. So the text in Jeremiah is not,

422
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,880
first of all, referring to the Torah itself being corrupted.

423
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,319
It's talking about the rabbinical traditions. However, even if Daniel

424
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,880
did want to say that the text in Jeremiah is

425
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,200
referring to the Torah being corrupted, Daniel doesn't have a

426
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,599
principle by which to know for sure that that text

427
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,119
of Jeremiah isn't corrupted, because the entire Old Testament and prophets,

428
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,680
in his view, are potentially corrupted. That's why asked, in

429
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,240
the principle of epistemic certitude, what is the principle by

430
00:24:56,279 --> 00:25:00,079
which you judge when the Old Testament's true when it's false. Well,

431
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:01,920
it's whenever it agrees with the Kuran. Ok. How do

432
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,279
you know that the text in Jeremiah that you're citing

433
00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:08,440
about corruption isn't also corrupted because it agrees with the Kuran.

434
00:25:08,559 --> 00:25:12,440
So again it all comes back to this circle. But

435
00:25:12,519 --> 00:25:14,839
as you pointed out, it's not even a good circle

436
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,799
because the book itself that He's is his ultimate principle

437
00:25:18,599 --> 00:25:22,039
already affirms that there's not error and contradiction in the

438
00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:23,160
prior revelations.

439
00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:26,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, even if we talk about so when we talk

440
00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:29,799
about Jeremiah as a source, there is another problem which

441
00:25:29,839 --> 00:25:33,480
we talked about last week when we were in your channel,

442
00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:37,559
which is that Jeremiah is an easy prophet as a

443
00:25:37,599 --> 00:25:44,000
prophetic source, is not even recognized in Islam. So you

444
00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:48,799
could it's not mentioned in the Quran. This might be

445
00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:52,319
a big surprise to many people, but Jeremiah is not

446
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,839
mentioned in the Koran. Huge huge profit in Abrahamic religion.

447
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,279
Samuel is not mentioned in the Quran. Huge profit. Isaiah

448
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,480
is amazingly huge prophet not mentioned in the Quran. Aslam

449
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,559
as no cool about Isaiah. Daniel, which is very ironic,

450
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,119
is also Daniel Kikschu's name is not mentioned in the Quran.

451
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,799
These prophets are not recognized as prophets anywhere in the Quran.

452
00:26:16,079 --> 00:26:21,240
Any most knowledge about these prophets comes from Jews and Christians.

453
00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:23,680
They have to go to Jews and Christians literally to

454
00:26:24,559 --> 00:26:28,160
get information about about these people. So when it comes

455
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,720
to Daniel Ki gets you referencing something in Jeremiah, that

456
00:26:31,759 --> 00:26:35,920
would mean he is making reference to a book that

457
00:26:36,079 --> 00:26:40,160
is a prophetic book according to the Jews and Christians,

458
00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:45,319
whom he cannot trust because they allegedly corrupted everything. So

459
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,759
he is appealing to a potentially corrupted source, which, according

460
00:26:50,799 --> 00:26:54,839
to him, argues that things were at some point corrupted.

461
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,759
This is just no way to go, hope for to

462
00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:02,039
make up stolid argument against for the corruption of Judaism

463
00:27:02,079 --> 00:27:02,799
and Christianity.

464
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 3: Well, the other funny thing too is that and by

465
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,440
the way, I know that you know, in our last

466
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,960
talk on my channel, we had talked about the fact

467
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:15,119
that many of these prophets that are major figures in

468
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,759
the Old Testament, major prophets, that they I didn't even

469
00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:20,960
realize that it's that they're not even mentioned by name

470
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,319
in the sense of absolutely no mention. I thought, maybe

471
00:27:23,319 --> 00:27:25,799
there's passing references, you know, to the Holy prophet of

472
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,759
so and so, But but you're saying Jeremiah is not

473
00:27:28,759 --> 00:27:29,559
even mentioned at all.

474
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,519
Speaker 1: It's not mentioned at allow. Jeremiah has no mention in

475
00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:33,000
the Corona.

476
00:27:33,319 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 3: That's wild, because you know, if we were looking for

477
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,680
a religion that was in continuity of prior prophets, I

478
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,200
mean from the vantage point of Jews and Christians. I

479
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,119
mean Isaiah, as we said, is called the Fifth Gospel.

480
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,279
I mean, it's just huge, even if you don't believe

481
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,359
Jesus is and Messiah like I mean, Isaiah is Gian

482
00:27:51,599 --> 00:27:56,200
sixty six chapters. It's huge, you know, Ezekiel huge, right,

483
00:27:56,319 --> 00:27:59,920
Jeremiah huge, I mean vast books of the of.

484
00:27:59,839 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 2: The Old Testament.

485
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 3: And by the way, just a little funny side note,

486
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,960
the name Daniel means God is my judge. And the

487
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:13,960
l there is would be probably what Daniel was looking

488
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,720
for when he was looking for the name that was

489
00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:17,400
pagan l l ohem.

490
00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean the name is pagan.

491
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,519
Speaker 3: Right. This is a word concept fallacy because it's just

492
00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:26,200
like the word divinity. The word divinity or deity might

493
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,440
refer to God, it might refer to many gods. It

494
00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:33,839
might refer to angels, demons, or a human being viewed

495
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,119
as a divine figure. It's it's a generic term, and

496
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,640
so amongst the Canaanites. The term L could be a

497
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,000
reference to any kind of deity or a.

498
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:43,839
Speaker 2: Class of deities.

499
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,279
Speaker 3: Right, So a lot of people make this mistake because

500
00:28:46,279 --> 00:28:48,920
they think, oh, well, anything with the name L in it,

501
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:54,039
Danielle must be so ironically, his own name would be

502
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:55,119
a pagan name.

503
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: I mean, the Bible also uses L or as when

504
00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:05,039
when it refers to other gods, when it refers to

505
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,599
other false gods, when it refers to them them making

506
00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:12,759
a god of of objects of of Yeah. Different.

507
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,119
Speaker 3: It's a word that's a generic term, like like the

508
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,480
word deity or divinity.

509
00:29:18,759 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so it would be it's it's it's just

510
00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:25,160
very ignorant from general's perspective and other people's perspective to

511
00:29:25,279 --> 00:29:29,720
argue that that would be the the actual name and

512
00:29:29,759 --> 00:29:32,920
then to deny the existence of Yahweh as Uh as

513
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:34,880
name of God, and that this is one of my

514
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,319
favorite things by now to to go to one of

515
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,000
my one of my favorite arguments against Islam, the whole

516
00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:44,119
absence and ignorance of the name Yahweh in Islam. And

517
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,480
we talked about this in length on your I don't

518
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:48,119
know if you're talking about it.

519
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an amazing argument that you found there with that,

520
00:29:51,359 --> 00:29:54,960
and especially going into the prophets whose names are also

521
00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:00,279
derivatives of that, and I think that, I mean, I

522
00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:04,279
can't see how this argument can be overcome. I mean

523
00:30:04,319 --> 00:30:06,880
it's really it's really probably one of the strongest that

524
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:12,119
I've heard. Uh So again, the fact that you, being atheist,

525
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:13,920
have that argument has nothing to do. I mean, the

526
00:30:14,039 --> 00:30:16,039
argument stands on our own on its own right. So

527
00:30:16,079 --> 00:30:18,839
it's like, I mean, it's a strong argument no matter

528
00:30:18,839 --> 00:30:21,400
who says it. And I think that any position that

529
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,960
doesn't want to deal with arguments and has to kind

530
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,160
of fall over into these kinds of like, oh well

531
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,359
he needs to just be gotten rid of or you.

532
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: Know, shut up, shut him up.

533
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: I mean, that's just showing kind of weakness in the

534
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,599
position from my vanished point.

535
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and even when I brought that whole argument about

536
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,920
the name of Yahweh on how Islam is completely ignorant

537
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,160
of the name of Yahweh, I specifically brought that topic

538
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,279
to him and challenged him on that because I knew

539
00:30:45,359 --> 00:30:49,440
very well that he that his understanding of scripture, theology

540
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,559
and things like that is very very poor. He was

541
00:30:55,359 --> 00:30:58,480
actively it looks like it clearly looks like he was

542
00:30:58,519 --> 00:31:01,640
actively researching while I was talking and then trying to

543
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:06,440
give me these off way answers to my challenge. And

544
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,200
what he did come up with is, well, Yahweh did

545
00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:13,680
not Yahweh was not in in Genesis, which was false.

546
00:31:14,559 --> 00:31:17,039
Yahweh is just you know, it's it's a name that

547
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:23,119
the Hebrews probably adopted this pagan name from the from

548
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,559
from from these polytheistic people, and then gave that name

549
00:31:27,599 --> 00:31:31,960
to their own God. And later prophets actually fought against

550
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,200
this and wanted to you know, rid their religion of

551
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,160
this corruption, but then you know, it just kept being

552
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:42,799
used in this corrupt form.

553
00:31:42,839 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 3: It just doesn't weird because that's that's yeah, that's usually

554
00:31:46,119 --> 00:31:48,720
the when people who and that's a very low tier argument,

555
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,119
like you said, based on ignorance, they usually are referring

556
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,680
to Aloheim. Usually they say the name Elohim is the

557
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,599
one that is borrowed from Canaanite religion and therefore Christianity

558
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,319
and Judy or false because there's this paganization just on

559
00:32:03,359 --> 00:32:06,519
the basis of a word concept ballacy of the name Elohim.

560
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,599
But I think he got mixed up or he just

561
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:13,240
slipped oh, well, Yahweh is the same thing. It's like

562
00:32:13,279 --> 00:32:15,640
that it's a pagan it's but it's not. There's no

563
00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:19,119
equivalent that I'm aware of it being a pagan name.

564
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,839
Speaker 1: So what he did as a result is he completely

565
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,519
wasted the one opportunity of actually dealing with that argument

566
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,599
and still presents it as if he was actually he

567
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,839
actually successfully argued his point when he was challenged with that.

568
00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:39,920
But when you look at the footage, you can clearly

569
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,759
see that he gives completely nonsensical answers and it's just

570
00:32:43,839 --> 00:32:45,799
out there, and he still doesn't engage with it anymore

571
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,000
after I called him out that his response doesn't make sense,

572
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,680
that his response that Yahweh is a pagan name basically

573
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,400
invalidates Islam as well, because Islam itself, the crown itself

574
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,599
uses theophoric names which clearly references Awe, including the biggest

575
00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:06,240
I would say is Elijah, which truly means Ali yahooh

576
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,720
my God, is Yahweh. And he didn't even get that.

577
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:11,720
He was like, Okay, well, why why is that Yahweh?

578
00:33:11,759 --> 00:33:15,880
That doesn't sound like yeahweh? Okay, yeah, it doesn't have

579
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:21,319
to exactly sound like yeah, yeah, it's Ali. Yahli. Yeah,

580
00:33:21,359 --> 00:33:23,119
that the Yah is already enough that that that is

581
00:33:23,119 --> 00:33:28,200
what is commonly used throughout the Bible and throughout throughout

582
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:32,039
Hebrew to reference reference Yahweh, and that should already be

583
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,759
enough for him. Plus you have two instances of the

584
00:33:34,799 --> 00:33:41,279
Quran explicitly naming, explicitly saying that John and Jesus, two

585
00:33:41,359 --> 00:33:47,359
figures that were Allah announced their names beforehand, before they

586
00:33:47,359 --> 00:33:50,799
were born, and it is Allah himself who gave them

587
00:33:50,839 --> 00:33:56,519
those names, and both of those names referenced Yahweh. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

588
00:33:56,559 --> 00:33:58,880
So it is just it is just.

589
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know if you saw the when I

590
00:34:01,039 --> 00:34:05,440
posted you the clip that you argued. His reply was,

591
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,840
I never said that. And it's like the clip has

592
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:11,679
you think, what do you mean?

593
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 2: Never said it?

594
00:34:13,599 --> 00:34:15,559
Speaker 1: And that's it. He wouldn't respond to that, right.

595
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 3: I mean that was the response. I never said that.

596
00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, free bird said Yahweh. Don't mention the New Testament.

597
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:24,679
Speaker 2: Sure it does.

598
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead if you want to respond to that,

599
00:34:29,519 --> 00:34:31,159
so I would, I would say, off the top of

600
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,320
my head, it is already. First off, it is it's

601
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,960
a completely irrelevant point because Christians don't have the problem

602
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,920
which Muslims have of not having the previous scriptures the

603
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,360
Old Testament. It is known as the Old Testament as

604
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,719
part of the Bible, so Christians read the very book

605
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:56,320
which mentions Yahweh over six thousand times, although due to

606
00:34:56,519 --> 00:35:01,119
Hebrew tradition it was it is shane into auto and

607
00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:03,960
I in Hebrew and then the English for example, into a

608
00:35:04,159 --> 00:35:08,159
lord in capital letters. But that is basically Yahweh plus

609
00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:12,079
plus the New Testament says Hallelujah for example, which is

610
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,960
a direct, direct inclusion of direct reference to Yahweh.

611
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of different ways that you can

612
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:21,679
demonstrate this. One of those, as I pointed out, is

613
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,320
if you look at Exodus three, when you have the

614
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,440
burning bush manifestation or what we call it a theophany,

615
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,920
it's known as the ash air, it's God saying I

616
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,639
am that I am, and so God is the I am.

617
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 2: This is also equivalent to or.

618
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,679
Speaker 3: A reference to Yahweh as well, because if you go

619
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:45,519
over to Exodus twenty three, God says that the angel

620
00:35:45,519 --> 00:35:48,079
who will go before the messenger. And I remember, a

621
00:35:48,119 --> 00:35:51,880
messenger doesn't always mean a created angel. It can be

622
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,400
a divine messenger or it can be a created messenger

623
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,159
like Gabriel or whoever. But if you look at Exodus

624
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,320
twenty three, the same mess or the one that the

625
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,400
voice that speaks in the bush is identified as the

626
00:36:04,519 --> 00:36:08,559
same messenger who will I'll read it. Hold, I will

627
00:36:08,599 --> 00:36:11,880
send my messenger before your face to keep you in

628
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,039
the way and in the land that are prepared. Listen

629
00:36:14,119 --> 00:36:17,079
to him and obey the voice. Do not provoke him,

630
00:36:17,079 --> 00:36:20,000
for he will not pardon your sins. Only God can

631
00:36:20,039 --> 00:36:24,119
prepardon sins. By the way, not angels. My name Yahweh

632
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,840
is in him, is in the as in the the

633
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,840
being speaking from the bush. It's this identified as the

634
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,039
same being of Exodus three. And so when you read

635
00:36:35,039 --> 00:36:39,239
the Gospel of John, Jesus says for many in many instances,

636
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,840
I am, He says, I am, when before Abraham was

637
00:36:43,039 --> 00:36:45,880
I am. And particularly if you want to focus on

638
00:36:46,519 --> 00:36:50,719
John one and then John five through nine. In those chapters,

639
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,559
Jesus identifies himself as the one that spoke to Moses.

640
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,320
So the one speaking in the bush, the one speaking

641
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,079
and being the messenger to go before them to either

642
00:37:01,119 --> 00:37:02,519
pardon them or not pardon them.

643
00:37:02,519 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 2: In Exodus twenty three.

644
00:37:04,159 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 3: Jesus identifying himself as that to the Pharisees. And that's

645
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,000
what motivates the Pharisees in John five through nine to

646
00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:14,679
want to stone him because they recognized Jesus saying, Abraham

647
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,559
believed in me. Abraham saw my day. Abraham believed in me,

648
00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:23,679
saw my day and was glad. He says Moses, right,

649
00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:28,199
no one sees the Father at any time, but he

650
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,360
says that somebody was there speaking to Moses. He's implying

651
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,199
that it was himself. He says, Moses wrote about me.

652
00:37:35,079 --> 00:37:38,800
This isn't what enrages the Pharisees because Jesus identifying himself

653
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,519
as the Angel of the Lord and as the face

654
00:37:42,679 --> 00:37:45,480
that spoke to Moses, and this makes them want to

655
00:37:45,559 --> 00:37:48,599
stone him. So those passages I think are very clear

656
00:37:48,639 --> 00:37:51,760
if you're familiar with the typology, and also if you

657
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:53,800
go through a lot of these passages that I mentioned

658
00:37:55,079 --> 00:37:57,760
that are called the offen. These these are manifestations of

659
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:03,239
distinctions in the Old Testament that refer both to the Father,

660
00:38:04,079 --> 00:38:06,320
to the Angel of Yahweh or the Angel of the Lord,

661
00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:10,599
and to the Spirit. And this is just a partial list.

662
00:38:10,639 --> 00:38:13,320
There's many many more. It gots smudged over here. But

663
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:15,519
if you go back to the Daniel debate. You can

664
00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:18,239
see all of those that I've referenced, and so what

665
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,760
you get is a comprehensive in my view of presentation

666
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,079
of differentiation in Yahweh throughout the Old Testament, that the

667
00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:28,480
New Testament is consistent with even if you didn't believe

668
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,639
in Christianity. I think that modern Jews, for example that

669
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,719
I mentioned in the debate, the Summer Text, the Seagull Text,

670
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,599
the Schaeffer, they're all Jewish scholars. They're admitting that there

671
00:38:39,639 --> 00:38:42,760
is quite a bit of differentiation and distinction in the

672
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,079
persona of Yahweh and the Old Testament. So it's not

673
00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:49,000
a strict unitarianism. So I'm just pointing out that whether

674
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,719
you're a Christian who approaches the New Testament and the

675
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,039
name of Yahweh and how it's differentiated in the Old

676
00:38:56,039 --> 00:38:58,800
and New Testament, how it's applied to Christ, or whether

677
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,920
you're a Jew who looking at for example, Daniel seven

678
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:05,800
in the text where we see this one like a

679
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,320
son of Man, these Jewish scholars are admitting that early

680
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:17,599
Christianity is consistent with a quote conservative Judaism of that time.

681
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,960
In other words, it's not a completely wholesale made at religion.

682
00:39:22,039 --> 00:39:23,679
Speaker 2: In fact, they're admitting that.

683
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 3: Without believing it. They're admitting that the Jews, the early Christians,

684
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,559
who were all Jews, were attempting to interpret and be

685
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:36,039
consistent with the revelation in the Torah and the prophets

686
00:39:36,079 --> 00:39:39,480
that was not a strict unitarianism. And in fact, I

687
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:44,159
think some Summers argues that the really strict unitarianism of

688
00:39:45,039 --> 00:39:48,039
Judaism doesn't really come about until my monodies.

689
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 2: So that's also interestingly kind of parallel with.

690
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 3: The rise of Islam and its strict version of unitarianism.

691
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,559
Speaker 1: What is very interesting is dealing with all of these

692
00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:03,840
uh these issues that are presented when we deal with

693
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,880
Islam and compared to to Abrahamic religion. You pointed out

694
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:09,679
that that there is a that there seems to be

695
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:16,480
this this attitude, this behavior among traditionalist Muslims, which Dane

696
00:40:16,639 --> 00:40:21,960
Kikichu seems to be a representative of, of not of

697
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,440
not really engaging with the the argument. And there is

698
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,239
an older tradition of simply not asking questions, and that

699
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,519
goes back to such a such a fundamental level. Indeed,

700
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:36,880
I quickly want to point that out that is not

701
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,519
just something we say. There is a there is a

702
00:40:39,639 --> 00:40:44,719
term in Arabic bila cave, which literally means without how,

703
00:40:45,679 --> 00:40:50,480
or which means without asking how? How, Yeah, without asking how?

704
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,519
And and that is a that is a concept, a

705
00:40:53,639 --> 00:41:00,880
principle which became popularized by very early Muslim scholar and

706
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,599
which traditionalists, Muslims, literalists, legalists stood by for quite a

707
00:41:05,599 --> 00:41:09,760
long time when they dealt with, for example, how how

708
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,639
allies described in the Qur'an, and that there are references

709
00:41:13,639 --> 00:41:17,119
to alli having body parts, but then also references to

710
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,880
to a lot being just uh, you know, everywhere at

711
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,880
all time, and this and that and and and Muslims

712
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:26,000
had problems figuring out how exactly they're supposed to make

713
00:41:26,039 --> 00:41:29,960
sense of these different interpretations, and the the early scholars

714
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,639
came up with this, with this explanation or with this

715
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,119
coping method, which was do not ask how, just read it,

716
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,480
accept it, do not ask questions. And this is an

717
00:41:40,519 --> 00:41:45,280
actual concept. As said, it's called bila cave. And quite

718
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:50,039
a few Muslim schools have stood by ed. Traditionalist schools

719
00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:55,960
today are still very much respecting that rule, some of them.

720
00:41:56,159 --> 00:41:58,079
Speaker 2: Does this go back to like the hunt ball.

721
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's I think what a prominent opinion is

722
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,639
that is that Ahmad hn Mad actually came up with

723
00:42:03,679 --> 00:42:07,480
that whole explore. It was his his idea that this

724
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,199
is what needs to be done in order to preserve

725
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:17,320
proper belief and to avoid corrupting theology. So just take

726
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,360
whatever the text says, do not question it, do not

727
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,519
try to make sense of it, do not compare the

728
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,880
apparent contradictions. It's none of your business. Just just accepted it.

729
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,840
That's it. That's also consistent with the Quran saying, with

730
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,400
the Quran saying for the true believers, when when they

731
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,480
hear a last versus they they say, I hear and

732
00:42:40,559 --> 00:42:47,079
I obey. That's it. And another another instruction by Mohammad

733
00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:50,320
where he says that the devil comes to you and

734
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,239
asks you questions about Allah and who created this and

735
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,960
who created that. Whenever that happens, seek refuge with Allah

736
00:42:58,079 --> 00:43:02,639
and sees thinking about these things. So these are actually

737
00:43:02,639 --> 00:43:03,480
slamming instructions.

738
00:43:03,519 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 3: Does that in that in that view? Does that also

739
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,000
apply to the hot eath or just the Kuran.

740
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: Hadith are more complicated, much more complicated. But I guess

741
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,920
with the hadith, but what they do is they respect

742
00:43:20,039 --> 00:43:24,119
the tradition of figuring out what is and is not

743
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:29,039
authentic in the hadiths, and then accepting whichever hadith is

744
00:43:29,519 --> 00:43:33,760
most supported, most stable if there are if there are

745
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:39,760
differing reports only specific instants. But yeah, so there is

746
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,840
for example, Haidith which says which I love, which says

747
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:48,000
that a lot comes down every night at a specific

748
00:43:48,079 --> 00:43:51,639
time to the world, Yeah, to the lowest heaven, the

749
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,000
heaven of the earth, and stays there to listen to

750
00:43:54,039 --> 00:43:56,039
all the prayers, and then he goes back again. And

751
00:43:56,119 --> 00:43:58,280
when do you actually think about that very deeply? That

752
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:03,599
doesn't make any sense because when exactly, how exactly would

753
00:44:03,639 --> 00:44:06,920
that work, considering that it is always night somewhere and.

754
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 3: They are just and also, I mean, this is kind

755
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:16,400
of that point about the shins and the above the throne.

756
00:44:16,599 --> 00:44:21,880
These are spatial locations, and you know, if we're supposed

757
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,039
to believe in tall heed, that's not possible. And so

758
00:44:24,119 --> 00:44:25,280
we're sort of forced.

759
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 2: Into a position then of.

760
00:44:28,519 --> 00:44:35,159
Speaker 3: Making analogies saying, oh, this just represents various attributes and powers, right,

761
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,639
But then when we do that, we're now moving into

762
00:44:37,679 --> 00:44:41,559
the domain of philosophical explanations and analogical predication.

763
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 2: And if we're gonna do analogical predication.

764
00:44:44,079 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 3: Then we have to square that with the text that

765
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,840
says that there's absolutely nothing in.

766
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,199
Speaker 2: Creation that's like a lot.

767
00:44:51,199 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 3: So you can't have both of those things, right, you

768
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,679
can't have analogical predication. And for those that don't know,

769
00:44:57,039 --> 00:45:00,239
predication by analogy means predication on the basis of likeness

770
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:00,880
and similarity.

771
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,599
Speaker 2: Right. So God is a judge.

772
00:45:04,199 --> 00:45:07,639
Speaker 3: In the way that a virtuous human being is a

773
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,800
righteous judge. Right, so he judges between cases. God judges, right,

774
00:45:12,159 --> 00:45:15,519
a father loves his son, God loves us in an

775
00:45:15,559 --> 00:45:18,119
analogous way. It's an analogy between the love of father

776
00:45:18,159 --> 00:45:20,719
and a son and God's love for us. Just this

777
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,599
is just throughout history of theology. But in the Middle Ages,

778
00:45:25,159 --> 00:45:29,360
analogical predication is just predicating on the basis of similarity

779
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,519
and likeness. But you see the Koran's already said there's

780
00:45:32,679 --> 00:45:37,480
no likeness at all between Allah and anything created. But

781
00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:41,559
then we have all these names which are predicates, right, Allah,

782
00:45:41,639 --> 00:45:45,719
the merciful, the righteous judge. And then we have these

783
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:52,360
attribute or these qualities that are predicated like shin, like

784
00:45:52,519 --> 00:45:55,840
spatial location. So they have to be explained. Then at

785
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:57,840
the same time as saying but there is no such

786
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,679
thing as analogical predication. Oh but there is analogical predication,

787
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,320
and then they just sort of talk around what that means.

788
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, this I've had.

789
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 3: I brought this up to pretty much every Muslim of

790
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,760
debated except for Daniel. I didn't bring up to Daniel,

791
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,480
but all the other ones that brought it up, and

792
00:46:14,519 --> 00:46:17,559
it's just like, well, it's not saying that all is

793
00:46:17,639 --> 00:46:20,079
like creatures. It's saying that all is like this or

794
00:46:20,079 --> 00:46:23,039
that power. And it's like, okay, well is the power

795
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,320
that you're talking about concept in your head? Okay, but

796
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,960
that's a creature, right, the concept that you're have in

797
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,639
your head of Allah's hand and all as you know,

798
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,000
movement or those are created things in your view, and

799
00:46:37,039 --> 00:46:40,280
you're saying that they are descriptors or the what is

800
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:41,639
the as she had said.

801
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 2: They signify the divine?

802
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 3: Well, to signify the divine is to say that this

803
00:46:46,519 --> 00:46:51,639
is a created sign symbol. That's symbology. That's analogical predication.

804
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,280
So how if there's no if all is not like

805
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,360
any creature, is there analogical predication?

806
00:46:59,159 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 2: You see?

807
00:47:00,559 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 3: This is sah It's forty forty two to eleven it's

808
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:07,119
not long.

809
00:47:07,119 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 2: I'll read it. It says.

810
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 3: The originator of the heavens and earth, he is appointed

811
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,760
for you, mates among yourselves, and is appointed mates amongst

812
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,840
the cattle. He multiplies you thereby, and not is like

813
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,199
unto him. Unto him ex me. Yet he is the

814
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,320
hero and the seer. So those are analogies. To hear

815
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,320
and to see are analogous to human activities. Right, So

816
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,199
we're saying that all I hear is and all I sees,

817
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,360
but not as a man sees, not as a man hears.

818
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,880
But not only that, here's the problem. Unto him belongs

819
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,679
to the keys of heaven and earth. He comprehends and

820
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:45,400
strange provision for whomever he will.

821
00:47:46,079 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 2: He has prescribed that.

822
00:47:50,079 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 3: There's excuse me out, let me go back a little bit.

823
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,079
It was verse eleven. He multiplies you thereby, but there

824
00:47:56,119 --> 00:47:57,719
is nothing like unto him.

825
00:47:58,079 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the text.

826
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 3: I was, excuse me, keep reading. But and then you're

827
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,440
notice in the notes, if you have the study, the

828
00:48:04,519 --> 00:48:07,039
study current, they talk about this discussion of nothing being

829
00:48:07,199 --> 00:48:09,880
like unto him. And I think there's another one too,

830
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,199
which talks in this way. I forget which one it is.

831
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,639
But the point being is that if there's nothing like

832
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:16,960
unto him. This is I think called tanzi t A

833
00:48:17,039 --> 00:48:21,719
and z i h the doctrine of absolute dissimilarity between

834
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,840
online creatures. If there's absolute dissimilarity, then we can't be

835
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,559
using these predicates like hearing seeing movement.

836
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, the issue is if you just if you already

837
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:41,800
begin to analyze the things that the Quran says and

838
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:46,880
point out the obvious problem here, you slowly approach a

839
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,639
topic that has been plaguing the Muslim world in terms

840
00:48:49,639 --> 00:48:54,159
of theology for forever, from the very very beginning, and

841
00:48:54,519 --> 00:49:00,000
that is still around and over which branches of Muslims,

842
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,760
schools of Islam have been denouncing each other and calling

843
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,519
each other disbelievers and even sentencing each other to death

844
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:10,119
and persecuting each other.

845
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 3: And you're saying, specifically over this question of like the

846
00:49:12,519 --> 00:49:15,079
hand and the placement over the throne.

847
00:49:15,039 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: This is one of the questions. So one of the

848
00:49:16,559 --> 00:49:20,440
questions that caused such a huge mess and still does

849
00:49:20,679 --> 00:49:30,920
is that the body parts the attribute to the specific

850
00:49:31,039 --> 00:49:34,679
descriptions of a law, and how you can reconcile them

851
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,800
with the fact that there is nothing like Allah, and

852
00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:40,559
how much, how far you can think about them. And

853
00:49:40,599 --> 00:49:43,920
this is actually a very funny thing. I grew up

854
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:49,599
in a very religious household, and stuff like this was

855
00:49:49,639 --> 00:49:53,079
hammered into my head all the time from all sides,

856
00:49:53,119 --> 00:49:59,760
and I always had trouble understanding that there is nothing

857
00:50:00,079 --> 00:50:01,880
like a lot and I cannot even imagine it. I'm

858
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,360
not supposed to. I cannot think about it. I cannot

859
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,199
imagine it. But then I'm also given these conflicting descriptions

860
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,320
of what a lot does, at what time and how

861
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:14,639
he will appear, and I'm like, okay, I just it

862
00:50:14,639 --> 00:50:17,639
doesn't make sense. I can't reconcile it. And I might

863
00:50:17,679 --> 00:50:21,199
have had this issue as simply somebody who witnesses these

864
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,159
these descriptions of our law and who doesn't study further.

865
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,280
But this has been an issue from the very beginnings

866
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:32,840
of Islamic history. And there have been a traditionalists who

867
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,159
has said, stuck to the whole idea that you should

868
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:38,320
not question, because if you question, then you will cause problems.

869
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,679
And there have been the others who are basically the

870
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:47,199
evidence of specifically that the mainstream Muslims were of the

871
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:51,639
idea that Allah is up there, and we have certain

872
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,159
things that are described about him, but we are not

873
00:50:55,199 --> 00:50:58,280
supposed to really think about that. Those things may be

874
00:50:58,679 --> 00:51:01,679
metaphorical or literally, we do not know. We don't think

875
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:05,840
about that. Uh. And then there are those the mysticists

876
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:10,280
who go further and to say Allah is probably up

877
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,679
there wherever that is. But that's it. We're not going

878
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:17,599
to go into anything else. Everything about him can only

879
00:51:17,599 --> 00:51:22,039
be metaphorical. Uh. And we leave it at that. And

880
00:51:22,079 --> 00:51:24,519
then there are others who go to the extreme. And

881
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,159
actually my parents were kind of part of that, and

882
00:51:28,199 --> 00:51:33,480
they were like in such an extreme form of mysticism

883
00:51:33,599 --> 00:51:36,239
where they deal with all of this mess simply by

884
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,599
saying Allah is not in any direction. It is wrong

885
00:51:40,679 --> 00:51:42,639
to say All is up there, all that. That was

886
00:51:42,679 --> 00:51:48,440
the Islamic tradition. Always He's everywhere, all at once, very

887
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:53,639
close to you, within you, even to certain any certain understanding.

888
00:51:54,159 --> 00:51:57,360
And there is no way that you can possibly imagine

889
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,239
or even describe him. The only way he can be

890
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,760
described is in the Quran, and we only understand that

891
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,320
entirely metaphorically. So it's just a huge mess. And all

892
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,360
of these perspectives are not just perspectives that sit at

893
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,599
a table and think, okay, you make sense, Yeah, you

894
00:52:12,599 --> 00:52:14,960
make sense, Okay, I disagree with you. No, they actually

895
00:52:15,039 --> 00:52:18,800
fought each other and killed each other over these over

896
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,639
these problems, over these disagreements, and that is just one

897
00:52:22,639 --> 00:52:25,880
of those issues. It's the location of our law, the

898
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,960
body parts, and what our lie is like. It's whether

899
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,559
the Quran is an eternal part of our law or not,

900
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:37,000
whether it came into existence through his speech exactly as

901
00:52:37,039 --> 00:52:39,639
it is or not. All of these things were issues

902
00:52:39,639 --> 00:52:44,239
of major contention that Muslims truly sentence each other to

903
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:45,440
death and still kind of.

904
00:52:45,559 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is odd because you know, in Christianity, for example,

905
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,280
in the fourth century, there's a really intense debate that's

906
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,599
kind of analogous to the debate that occurs in the

907
00:52:58,599 --> 00:53:02,199
Middle Ages between Jews and Christians and Muslims over naming God.

908
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,719
And this is the fourth century controversy that the Cappadocians,

909
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,960
this is Basil and the two Gregory's were very important

910
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,320
to Orthodox theology. They had a debate with a guy

911
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,760
named Unomius, and a big part of that debate was

912
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,960
over how and in what ways we can name and

913
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,599
predicate of God. And the only reason I bring that

914
00:53:20,679 --> 00:53:25,280
up is because it's interesting that in other words, if

915
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:30,519
Islam is the correct next revelation, so to speak, after

916
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:38,440
Judaism or whatever they think is or are, then it's

917
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:44,800
almost like there's no cognizance of a prior, intense, nuanced

918
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:49,000
discussion of this very question of predicating of God. So

919
00:53:49,039 --> 00:53:52,039
it's like, if you were the new revelation, it seems

920
00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:54,960
like you would at least have an understanding of the

921
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:59,760
previous Jewish Christian discussions and debates over naming God.

922
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:01,559
Speaker 2: Does that makes sense what I'm saying?

923
00:54:01,559 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 3: Like, in other words, Basil and the Cavedocians have this

924
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,360
debate with Eunomius, who's the earlier unit. He's like a

925
00:54:07,519 --> 00:54:11,719
Unitarians in the sense of Islam or Judaism in the

926
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:15,639
Middle Ages, and the debate is over whether the names

927
00:54:15,639 --> 00:54:20,719
that we say of God are unifical, equivocal, or analogous.

928
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,360
A unifical term is one in which there's an exact

929
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:28,079
same meaning between the two the two reference, right. So

930
00:54:29,199 --> 00:54:33,159
for example, if we said God's love is identical to

931
00:54:33,519 --> 00:54:37,679
the sense in which man's love, you know, father son love,

932
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:43,119
that would be unifical predication. And Eunomius, who was the

933
00:54:43,199 --> 00:54:46,280
radical unitarian of in the days of Basil, and the

934
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:51,039
Gregory's he believed in unifical predication. Equivocal predication would be

935
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,679
what Islam has, which is that there's no similarity between

936
00:54:55,159 --> 00:54:59,960
when I say God has justice towards us, there's no

937
00:55:00,119 --> 00:55:03,719
similarity between that justice and you know, human law courts

938
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:09,440
and their creative justice. Analogical predication, which is again what

939
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:15,079
the Kappadocians and Christian theology wholesale adopts. I would argue

940
00:55:15,079 --> 00:55:17,039
from the earliest days, I think you could find it

941
00:55:17,119 --> 00:55:21,639
in the Old and New Testament itself. It continues clearly

942
00:55:21,639 --> 00:55:25,559
into this controversy and the councils, which Daniel, for whatever reason,

943
00:55:26,079 --> 00:55:28,280
wasn't familiar with what councils are and what they are

944
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,599
about what they mean. He thinks that they're just new revelations,

945
00:55:31,679 --> 00:55:35,159
kind of like new voices of the Holy Spirit or

946
00:55:35,159 --> 00:55:38,320
something like that. That's not what councils are. But the

947
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,519
point is just that this is already a really well known,

948
00:55:41,559 --> 00:55:47,199
intense debate for centuries in Christianity. When Islam arises the

949
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:52,639
points that you're making about the rise of not questioning

950
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,679
or naming or explaining the hands of God or Allah

951
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,599
or the Allah season. Here's don't ask what that is.

952
00:56:00,639 --> 00:56:04,760
It's just ironic because this debate has already happened. If

953
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,199
you're the continuation of the prior revelation, why is there

954
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:11,400
no cognizance of that whole discussion? And not only that,

955
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:16,480
it's like, maybe I'm not worrying this, Well, do you

956
00:56:16,599 --> 00:56:19,639
understand what I'm saying? Yeah? I think it's it's similar

957
00:56:19,679 --> 00:56:21,599
to the point we were making about that the Quran

958
00:56:21,679 --> 00:56:25,039
seems to not even understand what Christianity, whether you think

959
00:56:25,039 --> 00:56:28,440
it's true or not, it doesn't understand what the trinity was. Right,

960
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,239
there's like a trinity in the Quran which includes Mary. Right,

961
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,880
it's like they thought that the trinity included Mary. It doesn't,

962
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:39,639
never did. But likewise, it's like there was no conception

963
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,880
of what the previous discussions of predication predicating of God

964
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,719
were and so it's almost like bypassing that and saying, well,

965
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:51,079
Allah's nothing like creation, and that's how it's So it's

966
00:56:51,159 --> 00:56:56,320
it's all, you know, equivocal predication. But it's like, but

967
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:00,760
throughout your book there's analogical predication, so how could it

968
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:01,320
be equivocal?

969
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:06,159
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, the reference to the trinity and the Churan

970
00:57:06,199 --> 00:57:09,840
not understanding what It is actually a very fascinating one

971
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,039
that I made a video on very early on when

972
00:57:12,039 --> 00:57:16,679
I started making uh these critical videos. It has the

973
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,400
Quran is different understandings. Uh, there are different interpretations of

974
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:25,159
what Christians actually believe in. But in one of those instances, Uh,

975
00:57:25,679 --> 00:57:27,800
Jay is not making this up. The Koran actually does

976
00:57:28,039 --> 00:57:32,519
say so. It describes a supposed fantasy conversation in the

977
00:57:32,559 --> 00:57:37,039
future after after everything dies and is resurrected, between Allah

978
00:57:37,079 --> 00:57:43,760
and Jesus, where Allah asks Jesus, did you say to

979
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:48,480
the people, take me and my mother is deities besides Allah,

980
00:57:48,639 --> 00:57:51,519
and Jesus will say no, I did not, I would

981
00:57:51,639 --> 00:57:55,559
never say that. Where so it looks like the Quran

982
00:57:55,679 --> 00:58:01,760
is they're arguing against this clearly, clearly a great belief

983
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:06,559
among Christians that that Allah is consists of three, which

984
00:58:06,639 --> 00:58:14,840
is Allah, Jesus and Mother Mary. And it's just it's

985
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,119
it's it's very surprising that when you find that out,

986
00:58:18,119 --> 00:58:21,920
that the Qur'an seems to not understand what Christians are

987
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,800
to believe and then deals with a completely irrelevant belief

988
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,599
that no Christian actually represents. And if you bring if

989
00:58:28,639 --> 00:58:32,440
you bring this problem up today, Uh, they will try

990
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:34,760
to explain that a way by saying, well, okay, there

991
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,639
there are there were probably some Christian sects in that

992
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:39,679
time who did have such a belief, and this is

993
00:58:39,679 --> 00:58:43,920
specifically addressing them, or or they will say this is

994
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:48,760
a reference to well, to Christians venerating her way too

995
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,000
much and turning her into a god. But that's clearly

996
00:58:51,079 --> 00:58:51,920
not the case there.

997
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, we would need to know what's

998
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:58,719
the evidence that there was a historic group that did

999
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,880
deify and put Mary as a member of the Trinity.

1000
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:04,159
I mean, I suppose that's possible, but I've.

1001
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:04,719
Speaker 2: Never heard of this.

1002
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 3: But secondly, even if that was the case, why would

1003
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:14,320
you be addressing some tiny fringe group that had no continuity?

1004
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:18,079
Is basically irrelevant, right, I mean, wouldn't you want to

1005
00:59:18,119 --> 00:59:21,840
address the actual positions? That's what That's what I'm trying

1006
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:25,280
to say, right, And it's the same point with analogical predication,

1007
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,440
like when you want to at least address or explain, Oh,

1008
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:30,239
you know, the Christians when they had.

1009
00:59:30,039 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 2: Their debates with the Eunomians and and you know what.

1010
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:37,239
Speaker 3: I mean, and they made their great mistake on analogical predication,

1011
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,039
as Basil and the Gregory's did who who are the

1012
00:59:40,199 --> 00:59:43,079
you know, the great profits of the early like, there's

1013
00:59:43,119 --> 00:59:44,159
no knowledge of any of this.

1014
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 1: Is that's actually, I mean, that's a very big problem.

1015
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:50,840
It's I have to be very honest. It is when

1016
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:56,880
I started getting out of Islam, and during that whole process,

1017
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:02,360
I was trying to further understand and Christianity and Judaism.

1018
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:06,760
So I started reading, reading, reading the Bible, and I

1019
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:11,199
noticed that it was completely foreign to me. And the

1020
01:00:11,239 --> 01:00:13,800
same thing is so this is a problem that Muslims

1021
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:18,599
in general deal with. To them, the Bible, Abrahamic belief

1022
01:00:19,039 --> 01:00:21,920
is entirely foreign because all they know about it is

1023
01:00:22,679 --> 01:00:26,719
stuff that comes from the Quran and from Muslim tradition.

1024
01:00:27,199 --> 01:00:30,000
Other than that, and that stuff what comes from the

1025
01:00:30,079 --> 01:00:34,000
Quran is incredibly limited and very ignorant because there is

1026
01:00:34,039 --> 01:00:37,960
no continuation, because the Quran is simply its own product,

1027
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:41,559
which emerged in the seventh century. It makes references to

1028
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:46,199
the Bible, to Judaism and Christianity and to their beliefs,

1029
01:00:46,519 --> 01:00:50,760
but it is completely absent from the vast knowledge that

1030
01:00:51,199 --> 01:00:56,519
comes with the Bible. So the Quran Islam claims to

1031
01:00:57,639 --> 01:01:01,679
be the final message, claims to contry knew what was before,

1032
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,239
but then completely disregards and gets rid of all of

1033
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:08,320
the knowledge that is in the Bible, which is abundant

1034
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,639
in comparison to the Quran, and then moves on with that.

1035
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,800
And then, as you said, has no understanding of all

1036
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,599
of the problems that are already addressed in Christianity and Judaism,

1037
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:21,400
has no understanding of so many things mentioned in the Bible,

1038
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:25,360
has no connection to Jewish and Christian history and theology

1039
01:01:25,519 --> 01:01:30,679
that was already centuries old in terms of Christianity, that

1040
01:01:31,039 --> 01:01:31,960
is a huge problement.

1041
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say to better formulate what I was

1042
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:39,679
trying to say the way you put it more concisely. There,

1043
01:01:41,199 --> 01:01:46,760
if the Quran and Islam were the correct, final or

1044
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:51,239
new revelation, I would expect there to be an addressing

1045
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:57,760
of the specifics of where the previous system or systems

1046
01:01:59,079 --> 01:02:03,199
got these things wrong. So what we see is actually

1047
01:02:03,519 --> 01:02:08,679
no familiarity or consistent knowledge of very precise, very well

1048
01:02:08,719 --> 01:02:12,079
known doctrines theologians and people.

1049
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 1: I can think of one issue, which is Christology and Jesus.

1050
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:29,400
Early Christian history has a very prominent history of discussing it.

1051
01:02:29,519 --> 01:02:32,239
Coming to a proper understanding of the nature of Jesus

1052
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:37,760
uh the crucifixion and the resurrection. I mean that is

1053
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:41,280
a that's a core issue. It is the core, It

1054
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,920
is the fundament, is the fundamental the fundamentals of Christianity

1055
01:02:45,079 --> 01:02:51,760
is Jesus comes, preaches, does many things, and then very important,

1056
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:55,440
he is crucified, and then he is resurrected. And that

1057
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,239
resurrection is supposed to play a great role in terms

1058
01:02:58,239 --> 01:03:01,719
of what Christians believe. It Islam is supposed to come

1059
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:06,760
and correct the Christians because they were wrong about Jesus

1060
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:10,199
about how they explained his crucifixion and resurrection. But it

1061
01:03:10,239 --> 01:03:12,639
doesn't do anything about it at all. It doesn't even

1062
01:03:12,679 --> 01:03:17,000
address the resurrection. It just all it says about the

1063
01:03:17,079 --> 01:03:20,280
death of Jesus is and they did not crucify him,

1064
01:03:21,119 --> 01:03:24,960
nor did they kill him. But it was made to

1065
01:03:25,519 --> 01:03:28,719
it was made to appear that way to them, and

1066
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,719
that's it. Why wouldn't why wouldn't the Quran address this

1067
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,559
whole giant elephant in the room. If the Christians are

1068
01:03:35,599 --> 01:03:39,400
indeed wrong, if they corrupted their own beliefs, if Christianity

1069
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:43,119
is a giant misunderstanding, as the Quran claims, why would

1070
01:03:43,159 --> 01:03:45,960
it not deal with Christology? Why would it not deal

1071
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:50,280
with what exactly happened after Jesus died. With the resurrection,

1072
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:53,800
it doesn't do any of these things and therefore leaves

1073
01:03:53,840 --> 01:04:01,639
a huge discussion completely unanswered. Just as DANIELI Kikachu does says, well,

1074
01:04:01,719 --> 01:04:03,800
just look at it, and whatever agrees with Islam is true,

1075
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:05,679
and whatever it doesn't just false. That's it.

1076
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:09,079
Speaker 3: Well, and I mean it was like all of what

1077
01:04:09,119 --> 01:04:12,239
you just said is bypassed by you. Just look and

1078
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:16,079
see with your eyes, Okay.

1079
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,079
Speaker 2: Well can I not? I could appeal to the same thing.

1080
01:04:18,159 --> 01:04:20,039
Speaker 3: Well, when I look and see with my eyes, it

1081
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:22,480
can it confirms my view? Right, So I mean that's

1082
01:04:22,519 --> 01:04:25,599
really just a non answer. But yeah, I mean this

1083
01:04:25,679 --> 01:04:27,880
is a great point about the resurrection. I mean, you know,

1084
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:31,719
even if you didn't believe in Christianity, you would at

1085
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:35,199
least want to understand, Well, what is their view? Why

1086
01:04:35,199 --> 01:04:37,320
do they think that, you know, this is so important?

1087
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:40,079
What is the resurrection have to do with the fall

1088
01:04:40,119 --> 01:04:43,800
of man? What about what about all these prophecies, for example,

1089
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,719
in the Psalms of David, that we see as predictions

1090
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:51,679
and prophecies of the Messiah, his descent to Hades, and

1091
01:04:51,679 --> 01:04:54,880
his resurrection. Now, maybe you don't believe that, but it

1092
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:59,039
would be better. It would make sense to understand, you know,

1093
01:04:59,559 --> 01:05:02,599
like here is what they believe, and you know this

1094
01:05:02,719 --> 01:05:04,599
is why it is false, you know, but we don't

1095
01:05:04,639 --> 01:05:07,280
get that. That's what's amazing is that there's not even

1096
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:09,800
an understanding of what the position is. And I would

1097
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:12,800
I feel like if this was a divine revelation, they

1098
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:16,880
would at least, you know, God would understand what the

1099
01:05:17,039 --> 01:05:20,760
errors were, you see, and they would be corrected. But

1100
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:23,960
it doesn't even explain what the erroneous position is. If

1101
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:26,039
I could misunderstand the erroneous position.

1102
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's actually a very interesting coron verse that I

1103
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:33,119
could quickly want to go to, and I might put

1104
01:05:33,159 --> 01:05:36,760
it on the screen here because I wanted to bring

1105
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:40,360
that up. It's actually very relevant to the very point.

1106
01:05:42,239 --> 01:05:49,800
Let me share this one here, so Kara three, verse

1107
01:05:50,039 --> 01:05:53,840
fifty five. I'm appealing to all the different translations here,

1108
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:56,840
but I'll just take the first one. Soayga international. What

1109
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:02,440
it says mentioned when Alas said, Oh Jesus, indeed, I

1110
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:06,519
will take you and raise you to myself and purify

1111
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:10,840
you from those who disbelieve, and make those who follow

1112
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:15,079
you superior to those who disbelieve until the day of resurrection.

1113
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:17,920
Then to me is your return, and I will judge

1114
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,159
between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

1115
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:26,000
Very very interesting point, very interesting verse here, So a

1116
01:06:26,039 --> 01:06:31,039
lot told Jesus that he will raise him and purify

1117
01:06:31,119 --> 01:06:35,559
him from those who denied him, while making those who

1118
01:06:35,599 --> 01:06:41,039
followed him and believed him superior until the day of judgment.

1119
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,440
Interesting but how exactly does that work? So who were

1120
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:48,039
those people who followed Jesus, Who were the people who

1121
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:54,559
who acknowledged him, who believed him? And which group exactly

1122
01:06:54,639 --> 01:06:58,079
has been has been made superior since then? And which

1123
01:06:58,079 --> 01:07:01,039
group will be made superior from then till the day

1124
01:07:01,039 --> 01:07:01,599
of judgment.

1125
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm actually baffled by this. What what what is

1126
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:07,000
their explanation of this?

1127
01:07:07,119 --> 01:07:10,079
Speaker 1: I don't understand the explanation I can tell you will

1128
01:07:10,119 --> 01:07:13,719
be well, this is actually a reference to the Muslims.

1129
01:07:16,199 --> 01:07:17,239
It doesn't make much sense.

1130
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:19,199
Speaker 2: But what do they think the raising is?

1131
01:07:20,199 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 1: Well, that he was just you know, he was raised

1132
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,880
to heaven as a as a prophet, and he will

1133
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,079
stay there and he will come back one day. And

1134
01:07:29,119 --> 01:07:31,239
when he comes back, he will then announce that all

1135
01:07:31,239 --> 01:07:34,519
the Christians and all the people who had these corrupt

1136
01:07:34,519 --> 01:07:38,920
beliefs went astray, and that the Muslims are actually the

1137
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:40,840
true believers, and then he will come and fight for

1138
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:44,119
the Muslims and abolish the cross, and break the cross

1139
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:48,960
and and do things like that and basically becoming Muslim Jesus.

1140
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:51,480
That is their explanation. But if you read it on

1141
01:07:51,519 --> 01:07:54,320
the surface, it just looks like it pretty much improves

1142
01:07:54,519 --> 01:07:55,599
of the questions.

1143
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:59,199
Speaker 3: It also it reminds me of I forget exactly where

1144
01:07:59,199 --> 01:08:03,920
it is, but samr Moon had referenced a there's actually

1145
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:06,599
just sections of the Gospel of John that are kind

1146
01:08:06,599 --> 01:08:09,960
of cribbed, you know. I'm talking about like there's like

1147
01:08:10,519 --> 01:08:13,000
several verses that are basically just copied and pasted into

1148
01:08:13,079 --> 01:08:17,399
the Koran. Oh yeah, yeah, which is because they typically

1149
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:19,800
want to say the Gospel of John is fraudulent. It

1150
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:23,319
was like, wait a minute, aren't some of the passages

1151
01:08:23,359 --> 01:08:25,800
actually just copied and pasted into the Koran? Well, those

1152
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:27,880
are the ones that are not corupped. Oh okay.

1153
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:32,760
Speaker 1: You can also find Muslims occasionally give some references from

1154
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:35,079
the Gospel of John in order to prove that Muhammad

1155
01:08:35,159 --> 01:08:39,600
was mentioned in the gospels, or that Jesus prayed like

1156
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:43,279
a Muslim or things like that, which is a very selective,

1157
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:46,960
dishonest approach. They will say, they will take that, they

1158
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:50,920
will take the part, for example, where Jesus throws himself

1159
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:53,520
on the ground and pray and prays, and they will say, look,

1160
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:57,119
he prayed exactly like Muslims pray. But that's not he

1161
01:08:57,159 --> 01:08:59,399
didn't do a ritual prayer there. That's not the only

1162
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:02,600
prayer date according to the Gospel. So that's a very

1163
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:03,760
very interesting.

1164
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:05,880
Speaker 3: Well, it's like that text in Deuteronomy that they use

1165
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:09,880
about I'll raise a prophet amongst your brethren, and you know,

1166
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:12,319
you know, Christianity obviously has always seen that as a

1167
01:09:12,319 --> 01:09:14,279
prophecy of the Messiah.

1168
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:15,279
Speaker 2: You find many.

1169
01:09:15,159 --> 01:09:17,800
Speaker 3: Church fathers prior to the rise of Islam citing that

1170
01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:20,960
as a text about the Messiah. Conceivably, Jews might also

1171
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:27,760
cite it as a potential Messianic text. But the for Muslims,

1172
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,359
that's a prediction of Mohammad. And and I didn't really

1173
01:09:30,359 --> 01:09:32,399
get to go into this, but when it was mentioned

1174
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:36,640
in the debate, the argument was, well, this is about Muhammad.

1175
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:38,439
And I said, well, but it says amongst your brethren,

1176
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:40,840
so I'm pretty sure Mohammad wasn't a Jew. And they said, oh,

1177
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:44,479
but they can all be brethren, because everybody is a

1178
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:46,039
brethren all the way back to Abraham.

1179
01:09:46,079 --> 01:09:47,279
Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, but wait a minute.

1180
01:09:47,359 --> 01:09:50,920
Speaker 3: Genesis is cast out the slave woman, and so they're

1181
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:54,039
not actually brethren, but in the Jewish sense, they're not

1182
01:09:54,079 --> 01:09:56,560
bresent brethren. That's the sense that we would be getting

1183
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:59,520
from Deuterom the eighteen, not the Koronic sense. It would

1184
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:00,840
be the Jewish sense of brethren.

1185
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:03,760
Speaker 1: What's funny is one last point.

1186
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:05,560
Speaker 3: The other thing that's funny about that, which is that,

1187
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,119
so wait a minute. If everybody is a brethren, then

1188
01:10:08,319 --> 01:10:11,960
Edomites are brethren, but no Jew would call an Edomite brethren.

1189
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,399
They're the enemies of the Jews. But they have a

1190
01:10:14,399 --> 01:10:16,920
common They have just as much a lineage that's common

1191
01:10:17,039 --> 01:10:19,560
as what would be Hagartes.

1192
01:10:20,279 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 1: It might be amazing to you the forms of a

1193
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:25,479
responses that you can get from you to cope with

1194
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:28,039
that problem, which is when they bring that up. I

1195
01:10:28,079 --> 01:10:31,359
even got the response, which was a ridiculous one when

1196
01:10:31,359 --> 01:10:33,840
I think about it again and again, which is that

1197
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:37,760
it says your brethren, and that clearly means that it's

1198
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:42,720
in reference to to the Ishmae alliance to the to

1199
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:46,560
the others, because that's why it says brethren instead of

1200
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:50,000
just saying from from you or your own tribe.

1201
01:10:50,119 --> 01:10:52,199
Speaker 3: But no Jew is going to listen to an Ishmael.

1202
01:10:52,359 --> 01:10:53,079
Speaker 2: That's the weird part.

1203
01:10:53,119 --> 01:10:56,640
Speaker 3: It's like the rest of the rest of Deuteronomy assumes

1204
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:58,880
that only a Jew is only going to listen to

1205
01:10:58,960 --> 01:10:59,319
a Jew.

1206
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:02,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and that's the that's the whole problem. But

1207
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:06,239
then there comes forth some guy in seventh century Arabia

1208
01:11:06,239 --> 01:11:11,880
who doesn't like his own culture and his own religious

1209
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:14,840
beliefs and looks up to the Christians and Jews and things.

1210
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:18,800
He's going to just start a message and claim that

1211
01:11:19,039 --> 01:11:21,640
the same God is speaking to him. And what's very

1212
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:25,239
interesting is I actually put a thing together. A I

1213
01:11:25,279 --> 01:11:28,000
took out all of the references in the Quran to

1214
01:11:28,159 --> 01:11:31,600
Christians and Jews and put them in chronological order as

1215
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:33,760
far as we know. And you can see very much

1216
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:36,880
that in the beginning, it is just this very naive

1217
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:40,079
approach to the Christians and Jews of like, oh, yeah,

1218
01:11:40,119 --> 01:11:42,840
you know, they're nice, they're good, they have true beliefs,

1219
01:11:43,279 --> 01:11:45,479
and you know, we are just like them, same source,

1220
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:51,039
same guys, and then it increasingly becomes gets into disagreements

1221
01:11:51,039 --> 01:11:54,119
with them, and eventually at some point it comes to, Okay,

1222
01:11:54,159 --> 01:11:56,720
they have their beliefs, you have your belief and finally

1223
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:59,319
it comes to they will accept your beliefs or else.

1224
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:05,560
It's just a if everything, naive, ignorant approach from Muhammad

1225
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:10,520
to Jewish and Christian beliefs. And and here we are

1226
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:14,960
dealing with a religious group that actually claims to be

1227
01:12:15,079 --> 01:12:18,720
in possession of the true religion, yet one that is

1228
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:22,760
completely disconnected and completely ignorant. And I actually want to

1229
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:25,720
ask you a question about that. So, when you read

1230
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:30,960
the Quran, when you began studying the Qur'an as somebody

1231
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:35,000
who extensively studied the Bible, what is your what was

1232
01:12:35,039 --> 01:12:42,439
your impression of the Qur'an? Did it appear similar in

1233
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:46,600
I don't know what was What was your impression in

1234
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:47,720
comparison to your own?

1235
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:52,840
Speaker 3: My initial impression is not really different than where I'm

1236
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,239
at now. It's just kind of like I've read more

1237
01:12:55,319 --> 01:12:59,039
text from scholars that I think really back up the

1238
01:12:59,079 --> 01:13:01,760
impression that I have, which is, you know, especially like

1239
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:05,479
the Gabriel site Reynolds book where he goes through about

1240
01:13:06,039 --> 01:13:09,840
thirteen or fifteen I forget how many case studies where

1241
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:14,039
he basically just compares the references in the Koran to

1242
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:19,840
the biblical context from which they come, and then contrasts

1243
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:26,079
and compares the narratives whether they make sense where they contradict,

1244
01:13:26,199 --> 01:13:29,359
and then the various Islamic explanations. So it's a really

1245
01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:33,560
good book from a person who I don't think he's

1246
01:13:34,159 --> 01:13:37,560
a Christian or a Muslim. He's just an academic. But

1247
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:41,359
the text shows the ways that there have been attempts

1248
01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:44,199
to explain, and it also shows what was really helpful

1249
01:13:44,239 --> 01:13:47,680
to me all of the different extra canonical sources that

1250
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:51,319
Islam also draws from. So I think you made a

1251
01:13:51,319 --> 01:13:52,800
great point when you and I were talking about this

1252
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:54,680
the other day. You know, when you start getting into

1253
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:57,039
the hadiths is where it becomes a lot clearer that

1254
01:13:57,319 --> 01:14:00,439
there's a lot of other influences here. So it's not

1255
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:03,800
like you're just dealing with the Quran. You're also dealing

1256
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:07,000
with about a bunch of world tradition which is kind

1257
01:14:07,039 --> 01:14:10,760
of collected and then it has to be scholarly kind

1258
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:14,720
of feeded out as to how authoritative they are. But

1259
01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:17,960
those also apparently rely on a lot of myths and

1260
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:21,760
narratives and stories, as the Quran does. And so when

1261
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:24,359
I first started reading the Koran, my first impression was,

1262
01:14:25,399 --> 01:14:29,560
it's it sounds like the Bible, but it's like I

1263
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:35,000
was detecting kind of like stories and references that they

1264
01:14:35,039 --> 01:14:39,319
didn't understand that are coupled together. And then your point

1265
01:14:39,359 --> 01:14:41,880
about the Hadiz, I think further backs that up. But

1266
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,399
now I see, Okay, well, it's not just the infancy

1267
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:49,800
narrative of Christ that you referenced as an extra canonical text.

1268
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:52,600
Speaker 2: It's also Cave.

1269
01:14:52,399 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 3: Of Treasures, Life of Adam and Eve proto Evangelim of James.

1270
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:59,399
It's all of the Sleepers of Ephesus. It's all these

1271
01:14:59,399 --> 01:15:02,960
other storiesries and traditions, some of which are also by

1272
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:06,920
the way, telmudick. Which is odd because you know, uh

1273
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:11,279
that that weird reference that Reynolds points out about how

1274
01:15:12,239 --> 01:15:17,199
the Sabbath that was a punishment, It's like, that's absolutely

1275
01:15:17,399 --> 01:15:20,479
totally foreign to everything that's in prior revelation. It's not

1276
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:21,000
a punishment.

1277
01:15:21,039 --> 01:15:24,039
Speaker 1: It goes back to Genesis, right, expand on it very quickly,

1278
01:15:24,119 --> 01:15:28,079
for yeah, you can quickly expand it if you want

1279
01:15:28,079 --> 01:15:28,680
to or I can.

1280
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:31,359
Speaker 3: No, I'll let you expand on it, because it was

1281
01:15:31,399 --> 01:15:35,039
just just a cap on my to summarize my point

1282
01:15:35,039 --> 01:15:37,319
there about the more that I would get into this,

1283
01:15:37,359 --> 01:15:39,399
the more I'm realizing, wait a minute, this is like

1284
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:44,840
cribbed from earlier stuff, cobbled together, and what's cobbled together

1285
01:15:45,159 --> 01:15:48,800
is not actually coherent. But then it's the job of

1286
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:52,039
the Islamic scholars to try to make this thing work.

1287
01:15:52,359 --> 01:15:53,479
Speaker 2: That's what I get from it.

1288
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:56,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So the point about the Sabbath in the

1289
01:15:56,079 --> 01:16:00,560
Quran is people who have looked into that or deeply

1290
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:07,319
can pretty much I guess explain that better. But I

1291
01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:10,439
made a note a while ago here on that. But

1292
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:14,920
the Quran basically, when it references to Sabbath, doesn't recognize

1293
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:19,840
it as something that that is a fundamental or essential

1294
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:25,359
part of of of biblical or Jewish belief. What it

1295
01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:29,720
basically says is that the Sabbath was just prescribed to

1296
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:35,239
the Jews as as a punishment for their for their actions,

1297
01:16:35,239 --> 01:16:38,239
for their transgressions, and it was it was basically a

1298
01:16:38,239 --> 01:16:43,079
burden placed on them by Allah, which is why I

1299
01:16:43,119 --> 01:16:46,760
only they keep it. So that is that is and

1300
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:49,800
then that's that's a very ridiculously ignorant.

1301
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:54,680
Speaker 3: I mean, it's very central to you know, the entirety

1302
01:16:54,680 --> 01:16:57,159
of the Torah goes back to Genesis as part of

1303
01:16:57,159 --> 01:17:00,680
the creation narrative. So it's it's almost like to think

1304
01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:05,680
that the Sabbath would be a punishment would be to

1305
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:09,760
again completely misunderstand something very fundamental to Genesis, which is

1306
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:17,039
the seven Days and the Sabbath. And in the the

1307
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:22,600
Say Reynolds book, it's pages one, nine, ten, and eleven,

1308
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:27,640
and you've got multiple Islamic scholars and people have tried

1309
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:32,039
to explain this, and it's just all the different explanations

1310
01:17:32,039 --> 01:17:34,680
are kind, they're just they're amusing because when you see

1311
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:39,359
the scholarly explanations, they're even they're not understanding what the

1312
01:17:39,479 --> 01:17:43,359
meaning was for the Jews and the Christians. So I

1313
01:17:43,359 --> 01:17:46,000
could understand if okay, so fine, you think it's wrong,

1314
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:50,239
but at least understand how central this was to the

1315
01:17:50,319 --> 01:17:53,880
creation narrative and to the entirety the Old Testament. To

1316
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:55,600
think that, as many of these scholars have.

1317
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:57,840
Speaker 2: Said, that it was a punishment from God, it.

1318
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:01,640
Speaker 3: Just shows an incoherence of not even understanding the narrative,

1319
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:04,079
just like with other things that we talked about like

1320
01:18:04,159 --> 01:18:07,600
the Arc of the Covenant. They thought that because it

1321
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:11,720
had the Seraphim on top of it as a box,

1322
01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:13,359
that it was a box that flew.

1323
01:18:14,079 --> 01:18:20,079
Speaker 1: Yeah. So here's the reference we're talking about. In the Quran,

1324
01:18:20,199 --> 01:18:23,199
in chapter sixteen, verse one, and twenty four, it says, basically,

1325
01:18:24,199 --> 01:18:28,000
the Sabbath was only appointed for those who differed over it,

1326
01:18:28,159 --> 01:18:30,239
and indeed your Lord will judge between them on the

1327
01:18:30,319 --> 01:18:32,920
day of Resurrection concerning that of which they used to differ.

1328
01:18:33,039 --> 01:18:38,760
And it's further than recognized that the Jews were basically

1329
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:42,479
transgressors over and over again, and the Sabbath was only

1330
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:46,239
given to them because of their because of their of

1331
01:18:46,279 --> 01:18:49,640
their troubles and there their transgressions.

1332
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:54,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's even you. You have this four forty seven.

1333
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:55,680
Speaker 2: You have been given the book.

1334
01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:58,960
Speaker 3: Believe in what they have brought, what we have brought down,

1335
01:18:59,079 --> 01:19:02,680
which confirms which is already with you. Before we transform

1336
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:05,800
the figures, turning them inside out, we curse you as

1337
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:07,359
we curse the people of the Sabbath.

1338
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:16,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's I don't know, it's just sometimes I

1339
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:17,039
feel like it is very.

1340
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:22,079
Speaker 4: Hard to put into words the amounts of of ignorance

1341
01:19:22,119 --> 01:19:26,199
that the Quran brings to the Chable when it talks

1342
01:19:26,199 --> 01:19:31,359
about Abrahamic biblical beliefs, and to then claim that this

1343
01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:33,720
is the same God, the same source, it's just it's

1344
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:34,359
just absurd.

1345
01:19:36,279 --> 01:19:39,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, And and again, I mean, there's a lot of

1346
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:42,920
different ways to approach this discussion, this debate. I mean,

1347
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:49,399
one another example would be if you if you thought,

1348
01:19:49,399 --> 01:19:55,119
for example, that the Revelation to Jews and Christians was false.

1349
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:59,640
One thing that's prevalent throughout the Old and the New

1350
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:05,960
test is analogical predication. So if you're going to say

1351
01:20:06,159 --> 01:20:08,800
that was all wrong and we can't do analogical predication,

1352
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:12,680
which conceivably you could have with many Islamic schools and

1353
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:16,119
the denial and the teaching of Tanzi, then you would

1354
01:20:16,119 --> 01:20:20,760
need to again explain or at least understand that this

1355
01:20:21,199 --> 01:20:24,479
group four thousands of years, for centuries prior to Islam

1356
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:27,600
with Christianity, you know, for six injuries, that they got

1357
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:31,560
this big thing wrong. And again there's not even a

1358
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:35,600
reference to So let me put it this way. There's

1359
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:40,079
very sophisticated philosophical debates. Okay, here's a great book that's

1360
01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:43,279
just on this very topic I recommend, And this is

1361
01:20:43,279 --> 01:20:47,800
not from This is from just an academic at it's

1362
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:50,359
published by Oxford. I forget where he teaches, but it's

1363
01:20:50,359 --> 01:20:54,000
a well known book called The Rise of Christian Theology

1364
01:20:54,039 --> 01:20:56,439
and the End of Ancient Metaphysics, and it basically traces

1365
01:20:56,479 --> 01:21:00,640
the development of just the idea of hypostasis, right, which

1366
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:03,479
is very important to the Trinity, all the way from

1367
01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:08,039
the Cappadocians to John Damascus in the seven hundred seventh centuries,

1368
01:21:08,079 --> 01:21:09,359
which is contemporary.

1369
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:10,880
Speaker 2: He's the first Christian to write about.

1370
01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:13,520
Speaker 3: Islam, by the way. So basically we're going to trace

1371
01:21:14,119 --> 01:21:18,000
this really sophisticated development of what hypostasis is in the

1372
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:19,840
Trinity and what it is in Christology.

1373
01:21:21,079 --> 01:21:24,000
Speaker 2: And it's very nuanced, very precise.

1374
01:21:24,079 --> 01:21:27,359
Speaker 3: There's a lot of philosophical terminology, a lot of references

1375
01:21:27,359 --> 01:21:30,720
to Aristotle, all this kind of stuff. And then by

1376
01:21:30,760 --> 01:21:35,119
the time that we get the revelations to Muhammad, it's

1377
01:21:35,199 --> 01:21:38,560
like it's like that and never, none of this ever happened,

1378
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:43,920
you see. And again I'm stressing this argument because if

1379
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:46,479
we're going to look at continuity again, we would want

1380
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:51,600
to know precisely where the previous tradition was wrong. And

1381
01:21:51,640 --> 01:21:53,840
I'm not trying to bank everything on philosophy. But it's

1382
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:57,319
sort of like, you know, Christianity had already adopted and

1383
01:21:57,840 --> 01:22:01,840
baptized and was okay philosophy by this point. Even if

1384
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:05,279
you think it's wrong, this is this is not really debatable.

1385
01:22:05,279 --> 01:22:08,960
It's pretty easy to It's pretty well known, right. I

1386
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:12,279
mean John Damascus, for example, he wrote an entire book

1387
01:22:12,319 --> 01:22:16,520
on Aristilian philosophy, is another book on dialectical philosophy. I

1388
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:19,239
mean his his systematic theology in the seventh century is

1389
01:22:19,359 --> 01:22:23,399
utilizing a lot of philosophy, as we said, from Cappadocians

1390
01:22:23,399 --> 01:22:25,960
and people prior to him. Maximus the Confessor full of

1391
01:22:26,039 --> 01:22:28,079
a lot of philosophy and at texts. And it's like,

1392
01:22:28,159 --> 01:22:30,079
if you're going to deal with and reject the position,

1393
01:22:30,239 --> 01:22:33,000
and I'm not even saying that it's true, because it's

1394
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:35,279
a lot of philosophy. I'm just saying that we would

1395
01:22:35,319 --> 01:22:39,760
need to see understanding of what's being talked about. And

1396
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:42,000
it's not even that it's not understood. It's like there's

1397
01:22:42,000 --> 01:22:42,960
no knowledge of it at all.

1398
01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:47,479
Speaker 1: It's like you're having it's like you had this whole long,

1399
01:22:47,600 --> 01:22:52,680
lengthy discussion on a major pressing issue that you're trying

1400
01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:55,840
to understand, everybody has had this discussion forever. He went

1401
01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:58,479
on and on and on. Yeah, you have already established

1402
01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:02,920
a system of analyzing This is how different theories came

1403
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:06,039
to proper conclusions dealt with it. And then some guy

1404
01:23:06,079 --> 01:23:10,640
comes along and entirely ignores everything that has been said

1405
01:23:11,119 --> 01:23:13,760
and just starts a discussion from the very beginning.

1406
01:23:14,079 --> 01:23:15,920
Speaker 3: It says, I had a dream and everything you said

1407
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:20,479
is don't basically basically, let me ask you this question

1408
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:22,439
what you think of this? So the more I hear

1409
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:26,560
what we're talking about in regard to the rise of Islam, originally,

1410
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:31,359
it's very parallel in many ways to Mormonism, and so

1411
01:23:31,439 --> 01:23:36,079
Mormonism basically says, all the prior revelation has some truth

1412
01:23:36,159 --> 01:23:39,279
in it, but it was also corrupted. Ours is the

1413
01:23:39,319 --> 01:23:42,960
new final revelation, and you just didn't have the full

1414
01:23:43,039 --> 01:23:45,720
consistency of understanding that God is.

1415
01:23:45,720 --> 01:23:48,520
Speaker 2: Actually three things. It's also ironic too.

1416
01:23:48,399 --> 01:23:51,720
Speaker 3: That in Mormonism God has a the Father has a

1417
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:54,640
body much like what we see in the Koran, with the.

1418
01:23:56,159 --> 01:23:59,119
Speaker 2: Body of all lots of it. But you know.

1419
01:23:59,119 --> 01:24:03,439
Speaker 3: They're they're a pro is not Now there's actually polytheism.

1420
01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:08,000
I would argue Mormonism is ultimate polytheistic. But I mean,

1421
01:24:08,199 --> 01:24:14,319
could we conceivably just counter the whole system with Mormonism,

1422
01:24:14,319 --> 01:24:18,800
because if the argument is, well, the Kuran is preserved, well,

1423
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:22,279
maybe the books of Mormon are better preserved.

1424
01:24:22,520 --> 01:24:23,000
Speaker 2: You see.

1425
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:27,399
Speaker 1: Plus the aside from the preservation, you don't even need

1426
01:24:27,439 --> 01:24:29,840
the preservation there. You could simply appeal to the fact

1427
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:36,159
that some guy comes along in the middle of a

1428
01:24:36,279 --> 01:24:40,439
land where people are trying to figure out which religious

1429
01:24:40,439 --> 01:24:44,439
beliefs to hold onto. This guy comes along and claims

1430
01:24:44,479 --> 01:24:47,359
to receive revelations, and there are people around him who

1431
01:24:47,359 --> 01:24:50,880
are affirmed that he is indeed revelations. The affirm that

1432
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:55,119
he's of great character, the affirm that he is a

1433
01:24:55,239 --> 01:25:00,760
fantastically pious guy who was entirely selfless, and a lot

1434
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:04,960
seems to be God, seems to be completely in agreement

1435
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:08,439
and basically in his service, and it gives him these

1436
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:13,119
these revelations, and he establishes the truth and declares that

1437
01:25:13,199 --> 01:25:16,239
people corrupted his message. I mean, he's ultimately doing exactly

1438
01:25:16,279 --> 01:25:19,399
what Mohammad did. I've heard a lot of people refer

1439
01:25:19,479 --> 01:25:24,399
to him as the American Muhammad or there there there

1440
01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:27,920
are people who say I spoke to a former Mormon

1441
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:32,000
here on this channel, a woman who is a former

1442
01:25:32,039 --> 01:25:35,239
an ex Mormon. I think her her channel is called

1443
01:25:35,319 --> 01:25:39,760
ex mole X, But she came on here just to

1444
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:43,199
to also pleasantly argue that she did hear about Islam

1445
01:25:43,479 --> 01:25:46,359
and how Mormonism is compared to Islam before when she

1446
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:52,640
when she was a Mormon, and also afterwards. And she

1447
01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:55,880
was also pointing out that the way the revelation is

1448
01:25:56,479 --> 01:26:05,159
seen and the way the way Joseph Smith, yeahs my

1449
01:26:05,199 --> 01:26:07,439
mind going all over the place, the way he is

1450
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:10,840
he is trusted by Mormons in terms of his revelations,

1451
01:26:11,359 --> 01:26:14,079
even if they seem completely absurd and out of places.

1452
01:26:14,159 --> 01:26:16,760
Quite similar to the way Mohammed is trusted in Islam

1453
01:26:17,159 --> 01:26:21,720
when he makes when he brings outrageously weird revelations, or

1454
01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:23,760
when he brings revelations that are just about him and

1455
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:27,319
his desires. It's quite similar to it to Mormonism. To

1456
01:26:27,359 --> 01:26:30,399
the point that you bring up it could be very

1457
01:26:31,159 --> 01:26:34,079
it could be reasonable to to go with that projection.

1458
01:26:34,119 --> 01:26:37,439
And I have seen people actually argue against Muslims and

1459
01:26:37,439 --> 01:26:40,479
and say why not just accept Mormonism. It does the

1460
01:26:40,600 --> 01:26:44,000
very same thing. But then you get a very hypocritical

1461
01:26:44,039 --> 01:26:48,039
answer from them, and the answer is just revolves around, well,

1462
01:26:49,439 --> 01:26:52,720
we know that that's not true, because you know, he

1463
01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:56,239
was just all about his own desires and then he

1464
01:26:56,399 --> 01:26:58,520
just made up revelations. Well, you could say the same

1465
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:02,840
thing about Mohammad. Well we already know, we already have

1466
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:05,199
the truth. With Muhammad already brought the truth, we don't

1467
01:27:05,199 --> 01:27:06,079
need anything else.

1468
01:27:06,319 --> 01:27:10,119
Speaker 3: Well you could see, can I could see them just

1469
01:27:10,119 --> 01:27:12,760
in terms of epistemology making that work is that they'd

1470
01:27:12,760 --> 01:27:16,560
have to say in a strict way that the Qur'an

1471
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:19,720
was the final revelation. But I mean, but aren't the

1472
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:23,119
hadiths also additional revelations?

1473
01:27:23,239 --> 01:27:25,439
Speaker 1: So well what what you what they do with that

1474
01:27:25,640 --> 01:27:27,359
is they will say the Koran is up is the

1475
01:27:27,359 --> 01:27:30,800
absolute final revelation, that is the truth. After that, no

1476
01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:33,520
revelation can can come, no prophet can come.

1477
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:34,119
Speaker 4: Uh.

1478
01:27:34,199 --> 01:27:36,680
Speaker 1: The hadiths are different from that because the hadiths are

1479
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:40,520
basically just saying, so Muhammad that or actions that people

1480
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:44,199
around him noted that are not considered revelation. Everything that

1481
01:27:44,239 --> 01:27:49,279
comes after him is absolutely unacceptable, absolutely false. And that's

1482
01:27:49,279 --> 01:27:51,119
the answer that they will give you when you when

1483
01:27:51,159 --> 01:27:53,319
you tell them, okay. Joseph Smith he made a lot

1484
01:27:53,359 --> 01:27:55,600
of a lot of claims. He said, these religions in

1485
01:27:55,600 --> 01:27:58,720
the past word corrupted, and he's he brings the truth.

1486
01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:03,279
Speaker 3: He So wait a minute, though, Let's expand that argument

1487
01:28:03,279 --> 01:28:07,880
and say, well, but Allah apparently allowed divine revelation to

1488
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:12,199
be corrupted amongst the Jews and the Christians, right, yes,

1489
01:28:12,439 --> 01:28:16,600
so he allowed them to be deceived, apparently, and for

1490
01:28:16,640 --> 01:28:17,720
the revelation to be corupted.

1491
01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:19,079
Speaker 2: Hence, why we need the Koran?

1492
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:22,439
Speaker 3: Why are we why should we think that it's not

1493
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:28,239
all also corrupted if Allah can allow the revelation to

1494
01:28:28,279 --> 01:28:29,359
be corrupted.

1495
01:28:29,279 --> 01:28:33,399
Speaker 1: Because because because the Quran is unique in that Allah

1496
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:38,119
had a plan of those previous scriptures being corrupted, and

1497
01:28:38,479 --> 01:28:40,479
the Koran is unique in that this is the only

1498
01:28:40,520 --> 01:28:43,520
book which Allah promised nobody will ever be able to

1499
01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:45,359
corrupt and he will protect it for well.

1500
01:28:45,359 --> 01:28:49,039
Speaker 3: But my point is that the promises are in the

1501
01:28:49,079 --> 01:28:54,560
older books too, right, So.

1502
01:28:53,399 --> 01:28:55,800
Speaker 1: But you can't trust those books because those books were corrupted.

1503
01:28:56,119 --> 01:28:58,600
Speaker 3: I know. But that's what I'm saying is that the

1504
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:02,479
same promise of non corruption was in the Torah, it's

1505
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:08,560
in the Christian texts and allowed.

1506
01:29:07,720 --> 01:29:08,720
Speaker 2: Us to be deceived.

1507
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:12,439
Speaker 3: Then how are we not in the same epistemic dilemma.

1508
01:29:13,199 --> 01:29:15,800
If we believe the Kuran, that Allah might be allowing

1509
01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:17,000
us to be deceived.

1510
01:29:17,039 --> 01:29:18,159
Speaker 2: Now you see what I'm saying.

1511
01:29:18,359 --> 01:29:20,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, but a lot wouldn't do that because and we

1512
01:29:20,039 --> 01:29:23,319
already know that. We already know that those crypt scriptures

1513
01:29:23,319 --> 01:29:25,560
are corrupt because when you when you read them, you

1514
01:29:25,600 --> 01:29:28,840
will see that they are obviously uh not in alignment

1515
01:29:28,880 --> 01:29:31,239
with pure morttheistic as like beliefs.

1516
01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:34,199
Speaker 3: But that's derived from the book the same question.

1517
01:29:34,479 --> 01:29:37,720
Speaker 1: So yeah, well if you just if you, if you

1518
01:29:37,880 --> 01:29:39,800
go and look at those books, if you just look

1519
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:48,880
at the Kuran and open your eyes, you will see that.

1520
01:29:41,760 --> 01:29:52,439
Speaker 5: You just look, Okay, yeah, I mean that's the thing.

1521
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:55,720
Speaker 3: Somebody wrote a paper. I have to dig it up.

1522
01:29:55,760 --> 01:29:57,760
I've got it save somewhere. It's a couple of years ago.

1523
01:29:57,800 --> 01:30:03,600
But they were arguing that. But Islam does argue that

1524
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:07,880
Allah is a good deceiver, right, And so if Allah

1525
01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:10,760
is a good deceiver, then how are we able to

1526
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:14,520
trust at all any of our reading of the Quran? Right,

1527
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:19,680
we might potentially be be be being deceived. Right, And

1528
01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:24,800
so now all the propositions are potentially deceptive, and so

1529
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:28,399
we're not in any better position with the Qoran than

1530
01:30:28,479 --> 01:30:30,720
we are if we are a Muslim and we're looking

1531
01:30:30,760 --> 01:30:34,520
at the Jewish and Christian text, which also promise that

1532
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:37,880
they're inspired and not that they don't have errors.

1533
01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:38,319
Speaker 1: You see.

1534
01:30:38,800 --> 01:30:41,199
Speaker 3: So in other words, let's say I'm taking Let's say

1535
01:30:41,239 --> 01:30:44,520
I'm a fourth century Jewish Christian.

1536
01:30:45,399 --> 01:30:47,520
Speaker 2: The books that I have tell me that.

1537
01:30:47,399 --> 01:30:51,560
Speaker 3: They're not corrupted, and they're inspired and they're authoritative. But

1538
01:30:51,840 --> 01:30:57,920
from the Islamic perspective, those books are corrupted and I'm

1539
01:30:58,319 --> 01:31:02,840
basically deceived, right, and so I need the Quran to

1540
01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:06,600
fix that. But Allah is already a good deceiver, and

1541
01:31:06,680 --> 01:31:09,199
so why would I not think that the New revelation

1542
01:31:09,359 --> 01:31:12,399
also is potentially deceptive. You can't just say, well because

1543
01:31:12,399 --> 01:31:14,840
it says it's not because the old books said they

1544
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:15,079
were not.

1545
01:31:15,239 --> 01:31:18,159
Speaker 2: But God was also deceptive back then, you see.

1546
01:31:18,239 --> 01:31:19,079
Speaker 3: Does that make sense?

1547
01:31:19,399 --> 01:31:19,640
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1548
01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:23,159
Speaker 1: Yeah. And there is a very funny, a very nice

1549
01:31:23,159 --> 01:31:24,600
thing that you can add to that which I love

1550
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:30,720
about Jesus and his crucifixion, some flavor you can add

1551
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:34,680
to specifically that which is uh So allied as a deceiver.

1552
01:31:36,399 --> 01:31:39,880
He he he says that he is the best of deceivers.

1553
01:31:40,560 --> 01:31:43,800
Think about the what the Quran says about Jesus. Jesus

1554
01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:48,159
was he was sent down with a message with a scripture.

1555
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:53,600
He was They tried to they denied him, and they

1556
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:56,880
tried to crucify him. They tried to kill him, but

1557
01:31:57,600 --> 01:32:00,000
they did not manage to kill him, not managed to

1558
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:04,760
crucifying him. It was only made to appear that way. Okay, Well,

1559
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:07,359
what happened as a result of that, as a result

1560
01:32:07,439 --> 01:32:12,079
was specifically that a major religion came into existence, that is,

1561
01:32:12,359 --> 01:32:15,960
according to Islam, a complete corruption of the truth. And

1562
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:21,439
why did it come into existence? Because the people believed

1563
01:32:21,920 --> 01:32:26,640
that Jesus on that day was crucified and they saw him,

1564
01:32:27,199 --> 01:32:31,520
I guess rise, which is a deception. It was made

1565
01:32:31,640 --> 01:32:35,439
to appear to them. So and that appearance, that deception,

1566
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:38,359
that illusion, whatever you want to call it, brought forth

1567
01:32:38,399 --> 01:32:41,000
the largest religion in the world, which happens to be

1568
01:32:41,039 --> 01:32:44,760
a completely corrupt religion. Is this a last plan? Did

1569
01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:50,039
did a lot establish a plan for Jesus where his

1570
01:32:50,239 --> 01:32:55,920
death was basically a deception which brought forth the largest

1571
01:32:56,159 --> 01:32:58,600
false religion in the world? So did Allah create this

1572
01:32:58,720 --> 01:33:01,840
false religion on purpose? By by creating this deception?

1573
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:03,680
Speaker 3: Well, they would say, yeah, right, I mean, if you're

1574
01:33:03,680 --> 01:33:05,359
a you're a hard determinist, right.

1575
01:33:06,439 --> 01:33:10,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, And why would you blame the Christians? Then? See

1576
01:33:10,920 --> 01:33:14,640
exactly why would you blame the Christians Because it looks

1577
01:33:14,640 --> 01:33:16,840
like Allah made it a lot, created the deception, and

1578
01:33:16,840 --> 01:33:19,319
they fell for it. So it's it's not there is

1579
01:33:19,319 --> 01:33:22,560
it their fault? If All is the best of deceivers?

1580
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:30,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just maybe this plays into the pathology of

1581
01:33:30,720 --> 01:33:34,760
that religion right to where well, if Allah is the

1582
01:33:34,760 --> 01:33:39,239
best of deceivers, is it possible that Muslims then welcome

1583
01:33:39,319 --> 01:33:40,039
being deceptive?

1584
01:33:41,399 --> 01:33:41,760
Speaker 1: Maybe?

1585
01:33:43,239 --> 01:33:45,039
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm what do you think is do you.

1586
01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:45,520
Speaker 2: Think that.

1587
01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:53,800
Speaker 1: I want to think deeply, like you.

1588
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:56,520
Speaker 3: Know people, do you think the takia objection? Is that

1589
01:33:56,600 --> 01:33:57,960
overused or is that.

1590
01:33:58,039 --> 01:34:00,439
Speaker 1: I think I think Okay, that's why I'm thinking about

1591
01:34:00,439 --> 01:34:03,680
this right now. But here's the issue. There is a

1592
01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:07,199
lot of there is a lot of overuse of that

1593
01:34:07,239 --> 01:34:11,399
whole tekia accusation of saying whenever Muslims says something that

1594
01:34:11,439 --> 01:34:13,279
doesn't seem to be true or that doesn't seem to

1595
01:34:13,319 --> 01:34:16,840
be consistent. Uh, some people might say they're just they're

1596
01:34:16,840 --> 01:34:19,279
just doing tekia. I would say that that is largely

1597
01:34:19,359 --> 01:34:24,479
overused Muslims do not learn actively to to lie and

1598
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:27,520
to deceive and to you know, hide the truth and

1599
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:30,239
all of that. And they don't learn about this concept, uh,

1600
01:34:30,520 --> 01:34:33,439
this idea called tekia, and that they're supposed to practice this.

1601
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:38,960
The problem is the problem with that is and there

1602
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:42,399
is a lot of nuance to this, although takia is

1603
01:34:42,479 --> 01:34:47,239
usually a wrong, over used accusation. Although Muslims don't actively

1604
01:34:47,319 --> 01:34:52,880
learn to to lie explicitly, Muslims do have a habit

1605
01:34:53,319 --> 01:35:01,119
quite often of concealing uncomfortable truths or conceal certain things

1606
01:35:01,119 --> 01:35:06,159
which they also lie to themselves about, and simply go

1607
01:35:06,279 --> 01:35:09,760
to whatever makes it easier to convince the other side

1608
01:35:09,840 --> 01:35:13,760
that Islam is true. And and you learn this whole concept,

1609
01:35:13,760 --> 01:35:17,760
which is that religion is supposed to be made easy.

1610
01:35:18,079 --> 01:35:22,079
So when you try to preach Islam to somebody, make

1611
01:35:22,119 --> 01:35:28,720
it easy. Forget about the complexities. You can cover things

1612
01:35:28,720 --> 01:35:31,520
that don't need to be mentioned, you can ignore questions

1613
01:35:31,520 --> 01:35:34,960
that are more pragmatic. Yeah, just focus on one whatever

1614
01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:37,319
makes it easier for the other person to accept Islam.

1615
01:35:37,479 --> 01:35:40,760
That's it. So, while the accusations of the key are

1616
01:35:41,199 --> 01:35:44,760
largely wrong and overused, there is an element of doing

1617
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:46,760
whatever it takes just to make the other person accept

1618
01:35:46,800 --> 01:35:51,680
that Islam is true, and that might include there is

1619
01:35:51,720 --> 01:35:54,600
a there is an issue here that might include occasionally

1620
01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:58,239
using deliberate deception when you deal with people that you

1621
01:35:58,279 --> 01:36:02,640
consider enemies of Islam, like myself, where they say it

1622
01:36:03,239 --> 01:36:05,640
they are basically at war with me and with any

1623
01:36:05,720 --> 01:36:08,680
mues of Islam, and in war, deception is allowed, as

1624
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:11,720
Mohammad said, exactly is it is it is to be used.

1625
01:36:12,079 --> 01:36:13,840
So that is part of that as well.

1626
01:36:14,720 --> 01:36:17,880
Speaker 3: So there's not like any hadith that says, you know,

1627
01:36:18,000 --> 01:36:21,720
you may deceive your opponent explicitly.

1628
01:36:22,359 --> 01:36:26,319
Speaker 1: No, there is nothing that says you may or you

1629
01:36:26,359 --> 01:36:30,680
should lie to them. All there is is that there is,

1630
01:36:30,720 --> 01:36:34,520
there is implied, there are words for Muhammed that deception

1631
01:36:34,920 --> 01:36:40,239
is part of war, and there are just instructions on

1632
01:36:40,520 --> 01:36:44,119
making it making it easier for people to understand Islam.

1633
01:36:44,239 --> 01:36:45,279
So that's that's pretty much.

1634
01:36:45,319 --> 01:36:48,720
Speaker 3: It interesting, that's good, that's overused.

1635
01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:54,239
Speaker 1: Like said, yeah, I want to point at this thing

1636
01:36:54,319 --> 01:36:57,960
here to simply revisit the whole issue of ignorance of

1637
01:36:58,039 --> 01:37:01,319
pre Islamic beliefs. So here's a whole narrative that is

1638
01:37:01,359 --> 01:37:07,560
adopt adopted from later Christian ideas where Jesus speaks as

1639
01:37:07,560 --> 01:37:10,720
a as a baby when he is born and tells

1640
01:37:10,760 --> 01:37:13,840
people that he is Jesus. But what's very important here

1641
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:17,680
that narrative is in Graduate in nineteen verse thirty. It

1642
01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:23,119
says Jesus said, indeed, I am the servant of Allah.

1643
01:37:23,239 --> 01:37:26,239
He has given me the scripture and made me a prophet.

1644
01:37:27,239 --> 01:37:34,279
So I hear you already chuggling about this about what

1645
01:37:34,319 --> 01:37:37,119
it says here. But yeah, so that the understanding here

1646
01:37:37,159 --> 01:37:40,439
is that Allah gave Jesus a scripture and made him

1647
01:37:40,479 --> 01:37:42,840
a prophet. And what's very interesting is that Jesus says

1648
01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:47,079
this as a baby already, is what Jesus is saying

1649
01:37:47,079 --> 01:37:49,399
this as a baby here, So he's speaking as a

1650
01:37:49,439 --> 01:37:51,520
baby and he's seeing, I am a servant of Allah.

1651
01:37:52,399 --> 01:37:54,880
Allah gave me a scripture and made me a prophet.

1652
01:37:57,000 --> 01:37:59,800
Speaker 3: I have a note two saying that this is from

1653
01:37:59,840 --> 01:38:01,760
that Syriac infancy narrative.

1654
01:38:01,840 --> 01:38:04,520
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, and.

1655
01:38:04,600 --> 01:38:07,319
Speaker 3: What what what when when that's brought up, I've not

1656
01:38:07,359 --> 01:38:11,359
hurt anybody addressed? Like is that ever addressed? Like aren't

1657
01:38:11,359 --> 01:38:15,880
these from prior non canonical or superb a graphical texts?

1658
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:17,239
Like is that ever addressed.

1659
01:38:17,680 --> 01:38:22,760
Speaker 1: The answert you get usually are that that people did

1660
01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:30,319
have certain truths and falsehoods that survived throughout the centuries,

1661
01:38:30,359 --> 01:38:31,760
and some of these stories that.

1662
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:33,840
Speaker 3: Came from they don't have a prominent minting that these

1663
01:38:33,880 --> 01:38:34,479
are older.

1664
01:38:35,720 --> 01:38:38,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know the yeah they So they will

1665
01:38:38,359 --> 01:38:40,880
just explain that a way is some truth and falsehoods

1666
01:38:41,239 --> 01:38:44,479
through the centuries. Same thing with with For example, there

1667
01:38:44,560 --> 01:38:52,439
is an issue with chapter verse, chapter five, verse thirty three,

1668
01:38:52,680 --> 01:38:57,720
I believe, which is the prominent verse of whoever kills

1669
01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:03,439
one person has killed all men, all humanity. Okay, that's

1670
01:39:03,479 --> 01:39:09,840
chapter five, verse thirty two. It says there we decreed

1671
01:39:09,920 --> 01:39:13,079
upon the children of Israel that whoever kills a soul,

1672
01:39:13,239 --> 01:39:15,640
unless for his soul or for corruption in the land,

1673
01:39:15,720 --> 01:39:18,800
it is as if he had slain all mankind, And

1674
01:39:18,840 --> 01:39:21,359
whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved

1675
01:39:21,399 --> 01:39:26,479
all mankind entirely. And Muslims will often cite only part

1676
01:39:26,520 --> 01:39:29,720
of this, and we'll just say, whoever kills somebody has

1677
01:39:29,800 --> 01:39:33,319
killed all mankind. Whoever saves someone has saved all mankind.

1678
01:39:34,119 --> 01:39:37,960
The problem with this is, as it points out, we

1679
01:39:38,000 --> 01:39:40,279
decreed upon the children of Israel. This is something that

1680
01:39:40,359 --> 01:39:45,399
was apparently taken from Jews. And the problem with this

1681
01:39:45,560 --> 01:39:49,640
is this stuff here, whoever kills a soul unless for

1682
01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:52,000
his soul, it's as if he had killed all mankind.

1683
01:39:52,319 --> 01:39:55,920
And then the same with saving is something that directly

1684
01:39:55,960 --> 01:39:56,920
comes from the town Wood.

1685
01:39:58,039 --> 01:40:01,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard rabbinical sources said, yeah, it.

1686
01:40:01,039 --> 01:40:06,199
Speaker 1: Is directly in the Talmud. The Talmud deals with this issue.

1687
01:40:06,239 --> 01:40:12,439
It explains something from the Torah and then says what

1688
01:40:12,479 --> 01:40:15,600
you can understand so that the rabbi says what you

1689
01:40:15,600 --> 01:40:19,600
can from understand from that is that if one killing

1690
01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:21,680
one Jew is like killing all of mankind and saving

1691
01:40:21,960 --> 01:40:24,800
Jews like saving all of So that that is an

1692
01:40:24,840 --> 01:40:26,880
idea that is that is that was presented by the

1693
01:40:26,960 --> 01:40:29,560
rabbis in the Talmud. It is not something that was

1694
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:32,720
revealed or that was found in the Torah or anything

1695
01:40:32,800 --> 01:40:36,840
like that. It is directly a Talmudic rabbinic explanation of

1696
01:40:37,800 --> 01:40:40,520
the Talmud. But here it is in the Qur'an directly

1697
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:44,680
presented as God, as if it were from Allah revealed.

1698
01:40:46,000 --> 01:40:47,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. I didn't know about that one either.

1699
01:40:47,279 --> 01:40:50,479
Speaker 3: So and Reynolds mentioned a couple of those, but I

1700
01:40:50,520 --> 01:40:52,439
don't remember off the top of my head, which one

1701
01:40:52,520 --> 01:40:56,279
he said was Talmudic in terms of the source, So

1702
01:40:56,359 --> 01:40:57,560
that would be that would be one of them.

1703
01:40:57,760 --> 01:40:58,319
Speaker 2: That's interesting.

1704
01:40:59,159 --> 01:41:01,119
Speaker 1: It was also important note here is that this is,

1705
01:41:01,199 --> 01:41:03,840
according to the Quran, only a law for the Jews.

1706
01:41:04,039 --> 01:41:08,439
So and here's the next verse, just to make it

1707
01:41:08,520 --> 01:41:11,840
very nice. Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war

1708
01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:14,359
against a lie is messenger and strive upon earth to

1709
01:41:14,359 --> 01:41:16,920
cause corruption is none but that they should be killed

1710
01:41:17,039 --> 01:41:19,880
or crucified, or their hands and feet be cut off

1711
01:41:19,880 --> 01:41:24,119
from opposite sides, or that they should be exiled from

1712
01:41:24,119 --> 01:41:26,880
the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world,

1713
01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:29,279
and for them here in the hereafter is a great punishment.

1714
01:41:29,399 --> 01:41:31,439
This is a horrible So.

1715
01:41:31,520 --> 01:41:34,199
Speaker 3: Is this why you see some of the radical a

1716
01:41:34,279 --> 01:41:38,399
islonic groups doing this to people at times, including like crucifixion?

1717
01:41:38,880 --> 01:41:42,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and including there were reports in Somalia, for example,

1718
01:41:42,680 --> 01:41:46,560
in the recent civil wars where they were referencing this

1719
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:49,279
first and actually cutting off the hands and feet from

1720
01:41:49,279 --> 01:41:50,800
opposite sides of rebels.

1721
01:41:51,159 --> 01:41:51,760
Speaker 2: That's what I thought.

1722
01:41:51,840 --> 01:41:57,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty messed up. Yeah, there's a lot.

1723
01:41:58,119 --> 01:41:59,359
Speaker 2: Now is that that one?

1724
01:41:59,640 --> 01:42:03,039
Speaker 3: Is that uh from a prior source or is that

1725
01:42:03,159 --> 01:42:04,000
unique to the Quran.

1726
01:42:05,920 --> 01:42:09,880
Speaker 1: That part about cutting off stuff that is not that

1727
01:42:10,039 --> 01:42:12,000
is that is from the Quran, but that is just

1728
01:42:12,039 --> 01:42:15,359
the first after the one that is taken from the Jews,

1729
01:42:15,359 --> 01:42:18,600
from the Talmud. So what happened, what probably happened there.

1730
01:42:18,600 --> 01:42:21,159
The theory is what probably happened there. Why the Quran

1731
01:42:21,479 --> 01:42:25,279
suddenly has a Talmudic teaching there as if it was

1732
01:42:25,279 --> 01:42:28,279
really revealed from a law, is that Muhammed was in Medina,

1733
01:42:28,439 --> 01:42:33,159
Medina had a lot of Jews, learned Jews. Jews interact

1734
01:42:33,199 --> 01:42:35,039
with him and tell him things, and one of the

1735
01:42:35,079 --> 01:42:39,439
prominent ideas and teachings they have is specifically that moment

1736
01:42:39,520 --> 01:42:43,520
hears it and probably thinks, oh Allah revealed this to them.

1737
01:42:43,600 --> 01:42:46,359
So it's that included as a revelation from a law.

1738
01:42:46,399 --> 01:42:49,079
But and that's just a big oopsie, you know.

1739
01:42:50,680 --> 01:42:53,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, it looks like a lot of the narratives are

1740
01:42:53,720 --> 01:42:59,359
maybe things that were heard and misunderstood, like the Trinity

1741
01:43:01,640 --> 01:43:04,119
Mary stuff that sounds like something that was heard. Oh

1742
01:43:04,159 --> 01:43:06,359
they think this you know there was recorded.

1743
01:43:06,439 --> 01:43:10,199
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also I mentioned in Grand nine, verse thirty, there

1744
01:43:10,279 --> 01:43:13,560
is this Jews say Ezra is the son of a

1745
01:43:13,640 --> 01:43:17,279
law and Christians say the Messiah son of a law

1746
01:43:18,000 --> 01:43:22,479
knowed you believe that of God and worships Ezra. But

1747
01:43:23,119 --> 01:43:25,520
it's probably something that he heard. I mean, maybe somebody joked.

1748
01:43:25,520 --> 01:43:27,840
I don't know, maybe somebody was joking about the room,

1749
01:43:27,920 --> 01:43:29,600
and he took it seriously and included.

1750
01:43:29,520 --> 01:43:31,000
Speaker 2: Maybe somebody was trolling him.

1751
01:43:31,840 --> 01:43:34,840
Speaker 3: And I told him, yeah, we think Ezra right, and

1752
01:43:35,000 --> 01:43:38,520
he wrote that down like it was an ancient trolling.

1753
01:43:38,960 --> 01:43:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, what, what's have you heard of? The of the

1754
01:43:42,640 --> 01:43:45,319
idea that Alexander the Great is also in the Qur'an.

1755
01:43:47,680 --> 01:43:50,359
That's a very important thing to look into. That. Uh.

1756
01:43:51,319 --> 01:43:55,399
There is a character named the Karnaine in the same

1757
01:43:55,520 --> 01:43:59,680
chapter that also mentions the people the Sleepers seven Sleepers,

1758
01:44:00,199 --> 01:44:03,920
and it talks about a figure named Dul Karnain who

1759
01:44:04,119 --> 01:44:07,960
is a servant of all and who was given all

1760
01:44:08,039 --> 01:44:10,279
kinds of power by Allah and went to the very

1761
01:44:10,359 --> 01:44:14,119
far ends of the world. And the issue with that

1762
01:44:14,239 --> 01:44:17,439
character is nobody knows who that character is. The issue

1763
01:44:17,439 --> 01:44:20,079
with that character is early Islamic scholars, we are very

1764
01:44:20,119 --> 01:44:24,560
clear that the Karnain is Alexander the Great, But over time,

1765
01:44:24,600 --> 01:44:27,039
when people learned who Elese and the Grade actually is,

1766
01:44:27,159 --> 01:44:32,880
they began to deny that and many mostms today will

1767
01:44:32,880 --> 01:44:37,119
still deny that because the Quran basically depicts Alexander the

1768
01:44:37,159 --> 01:44:43,520
Great there as a servant of Allah. Yeah yeah, yeah wow.

1769
01:44:44,520 --> 01:44:46,840
And what happens there going to the Hadith is people come,

1770
01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:50,680
apparently Jews are coming and asking him about this, and

1771
01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:54,520
he then goes away. It comes back many days later

1772
01:44:55,199 --> 01:45:00,560
with these revelations. But the revelations get it all wrong Islam.

1773
01:45:02,680 --> 01:45:06,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe maybe he heard, you know, the texts in

1774
01:45:06,479 --> 01:45:13,680
Daniel or Maccabee's which reference that time period of of Alexander. Yeah,

1775
01:45:13,680 --> 01:45:17,399
and maybe he thought that that meant that Alexander was

1776
01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:20,279
a servant of God, which is odd because that's not

1777
01:45:20,399 --> 01:45:24,239
at all what Maccabee says. Like it, Maccabee's doesn't really

1778
01:45:24,279 --> 01:45:28,279
comment a lot on Alexander. It focuses on Antiochus of

1779
01:45:28,359 --> 01:45:33,119
Theefani's right, who's the one that defiles the temple. I'm

1780
01:45:33,119 --> 01:45:35,600
just trying to think, like why he would have Maybe.

1781
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:41,680
Speaker 1: There's an explanation off so historically seen. Apparently the early

1782
01:45:41,800 --> 01:45:46,439
Jews had a developed and understanding of of Alexander the Great,

1783
01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:51,640
where they for a while referred to him as somebody

1784
01:45:51,680 --> 01:45:56,920
who was given given power by God or was favored

1785
01:45:56,960 --> 01:46:01,800
by God because they had an understanding that people who

1786
01:46:01,800 --> 01:46:03,479
become very powerful and we have.

1787
01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:05,399
Speaker 2: Providence.

1788
01:46:05,960 --> 01:46:08,079
Speaker 1: They yeah, they're they are given divine providence and they

1789
01:46:09,159 --> 01:46:11,439
so they began referring to him as somebody who was

1790
01:46:11,520 --> 01:46:13,800
gifted by God. Yeah, but that doesn't mean that he

1791
01:46:13,960 --> 01:46:17,760
herved God, like that's that's the issue, and probably misunderstood

1792
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:18,960
that so exactly.

1793
01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:23,159
Speaker 3: I mean, it says the same thing about uh Nebucannezer

1794
01:46:23,279 --> 01:46:27,039
that like, when Daniel's talking about Nebucanezer, he says that

1795
01:46:27,159 --> 01:46:32,319
divine providence raised up Nezer. Doesn't mean that Negeezer was

1796
01:46:32,359 --> 01:46:34,479
a servant of God. In fact, he was a blasphemer

1797
01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:36,960
and he in the Book of Daniel, he's punished.

1798
01:46:36,640 --> 01:46:37,720
Speaker 2: Because he's a blasphemer.

1799
01:46:38,000 --> 01:46:38,199
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1800
01:46:38,560 --> 01:46:41,159
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's fascinating.

1801
01:46:41,399 --> 01:46:44,000
Speaker 3: I was gonna look and see how because I know

1802
01:46:44,159 --> 01:46:49,359
mccabee's mentions. I can't remember if it mentions him explicitly

1803
01:46:49,640 --> 01:46:51,359
or if it just kind of mentions him in passing

1804
01:46:51,640 --> 01:46:56,079
in the first chapter of Macabee's but he's talking about

1805
01:46:56,159 --> 01:47:00,479
that period. Yeah, I don't I don't think he mentions

1806
01:47:00,560 --> 01:47:01,159
him by name.

1807
01:47:03,399 --> 01:47:05,880
Speaker 1: Thinks serious said, can you look at the errors of

1808
01:47:05,920 --> 01:47:07,720
the Trinity in the ground. We did that, thank you

1809
01:47:07,840 --> 01:47:08,279
so much.

1810
01:47:08,680 --> 01:47:09,720
Speaker 2: No, it does, excuse me.

1811
01:47:09,880 --> 01:47:13,760
Speaker 3: So the first, the very beginning of maccabee's doesn't mention

1812
01:47:13,960 --> 01:47:17,399
Alexander as king of Greeks. He went to the ends

1813
01:47:17,399 --> 01:47:22,199
of the earth, he spoiled, he spoiled the earth like

1814
01:47:23,720 --> 01:47:30,399
army spoils. He fell sick and died, doesn't reference anything

1815
01:47:30,439 --> 01:47:33,520
about it, just states it kind of like a history

1816
01:47:33,600 --> 01:47:37,640
of Alexander. And then it moves into talking about Antiochus

1817
01:47:37,960 --> 01:47:41,560
being a horrible blasphemer because he was one of the

1818
01:47:41,800 --> 01:47:46,000
four generals that took over after Alexander passed away. Alexander

1819
01:47:46,039 --> 01:47:48,039
ray for twelve years and then he died. His servants

1820
01:47:48,079 --> 01:47:50,039
took over and ruled in his place. One of those

1821
01:47:50,199 --> 01:47:55,199
was Antiochus. So it doesn't there's never a positive mention

1822
01:47:55,479 --> 01:47:58,760
in maccabe's as just as curiosity.

1823
01:48:01,439 --> 01:48:03,079
Speaker 1: I will quickly put this year on the screen just

1824
01:48:03,159 --> 01:48:07,439
because it's so funny. Uh So, here is the Kuronic

1825
01:48:07,520 --> 01:48:10,640
narrative on the Karnae, and it says in eighteen eighty

1826
01:48:10,760 --> 01:48:14,279
three and they ask you about the Karnaine and lo

1827
01:48:14,439 --> 01:48:20,479
garnane literally means the two horned one, the two horned one, Yeah,

1828
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:21,479
two horned one.

1829
01:48:22,000 --> 01:48:24,439
Speaker 3: Oh, that that might actually be a reference to Daniel.

1830
01:48:25,520 --> 01:48:30,319
Speaker 1: Well, the thing is so, if if you look at this,

1831
01:48:30,600 --> 01:48:33,680
if you look at the narrative here, it is very much,

1832
01:48:34,359 --> 01:48:41,359
very much copies ancient myths, the legends about Alexander. It

1833
01:48:41,720 --> 01:48:47,359
basically copies the Alexander romance legends. And Alexander the Great

1834
01:48:47,520 --> 01:48:50,720
was known as the one who wears a helmet with

1835
01:48:50,840 --> 01:48:54,359
two horns. And there were coins that were that existed

1836
01:48:54,359 --> 01:48:56,680
in Arabia as well at the time where Alexand the

1837
01:48:56,760 --> 01:48:59,680
Greatest depicted somebody with two horns. But it says here

1838
01:49:00,279 --> 01:49:03,119
I will recite to you about him a report. Indeed,

1839
01:49:03,199 --> 01:49:05,319
we established him upon the earth, and we gave him

1840
01:49:05,319 --> 01:49:08,279
from everything away. So he followed away until when he

1841
01:49:08,359 --> 01:49:11,359
reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting

1842
01:49:11,399 --> 01:49:14,520
in a body of dark water. And he found neared

1843
01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:19,680
eight people, and we said, oh, theo carnein. Either you

1844
01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:22,920
punish them or else adopted them a way of goodness.

1845
01:49:23,479 --> 01:49:25,880
Here is a very interesting detail. He found the sun

1846
01:49:26,039 --> 01:49:31,680
setting in a pool of dark water. He said, as

1847
01:49:31,760 --> 01:49:33,520
for one who wrongs, we will punish them. Then he

1848
01:49:33,560 --> 01:49:35,560
will be returned to his lord, and he will be

1849
01:49:35,600 --> 01:49:37,880
punished with a terrible punishment, but as for one who

1850
01:49:37,960 --> 01:49:41,319
believes and does righteousness, he will have a reward. Then

1851
01:49:41,359 --> 01:49:43,600
he followed another way. When he came to the rising

1852
01:49:43,680 --> 01:49:45,960
of the sun, he found it rising on a people

1853
01:49:46,000 --> 01:49:48,840
for whom we had not made against any shield, and

1854
01:49:48,920 --> 01:49:51,359
then he builds for them ay wall to protect them.

1855
01:49:52,199 --> 01:49:55,920
But this is basically goes back to all legends about

1856
01:49:55,920 --> 01:49:59,880
Alexander the Great, who allegedly traveled to the very very east,

1857
01:50:00,199 --> 01:50:04,319
very west, and who built a giant wall to protect

1858
01:50:04,399 --> 01:50:06,239
these people from these invaders.

1859
01:50:07,520 --> 01:50:11,760
Speaker 3: And yeah, but you'll find this interesting because if you

1860
01:50:11,840 --> 01:50:16,439
look at Daniel eight, like verses five to fourteen, a

1861
01:50:16,479 --> 01:50:18,159
lot of people think that it's whether you think it's

1862
01:50:18,199 --> 01:50:21,920
a prophecy or whether it was written later. It's talking

1863
01:50:21,960 --> 01:50:25,079
about Alexander, and it's calling him the horn the horned one,

1864
01:50:26,880 --> 01:50:28,840
the goat, it calls him the male goat.

1865
01:50:28,880 --> 01:50:30,319
Speaker 2: I think here and yeah, verse five.

1866
01:50:31,439 --> 01:50:34,079
Speaker 3: So what I'm saying what's funny about that is that

1867
01:50:34,680 --> 01:50:39,680
the description is that he's an evil pagan ruler in Daniel,

1868
01:50:39,800 --> 01:50:42,560
but he's called the horned goat, the horned one. Yeah,

1869
01:50:42,960 --> 01:50:44,880
and he's li liken to a goat, which in scripture,

1870
01:50:44,920 --> 01:50:48,520
goats are typically referred to as the wicked sheeps and goats.

1871
01:50:49,000 --> 01:50:51,600
So I'm just pointing out that it's the chronic narrative.

1872
01:50:51,840 --> 01:50:54,920
If if he heard this story from Jews, or if

1873
01:50:54,960 --> 01:50:59,000
he'd heard Daniel and thought maybe that was about Alexander.

1874
01:50:59,199 --> 01:51:03,439
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe maybe that could be how its So what's.

1875
01:51:03,319 --> 01:51:07,119
Speaker 2: Funny is that in Daniel he's a wicked person.

1876
01:51:07,880 --> 01:51:10,600
Speaker 1: And and that's where the issue is. He just hears

1877
01:51:10,800 --> 01:51:13,920
bits of knowledge, probably from from the Jews, from others,

1878
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:17,199
and then the things, oh, I have a revelation from

1879
01:51:17,239 --> 01:51:17,560
a law.

1880
01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:21,960
Speaker 3: Allah says so and so and so and But you're

1881
01:51:22,039 --> 01:51:25,760
saying that he in this passage about this figure here,

1882
01:51:26,640 --> 01:51:28,800
that it's actually calling him a righteous person.

1883
01:51:28,720 --> 01:51:31,640
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, No, it's it's it's literally according to the verse,

1884
01:51:31,680 --> 01:51:33,720
it's a lot communicating with him and making him a

1885
01:51:33,920 --> 01:51:38,279
judge over people, whether they are righteous or or not.

1886
01:51:38,720 --> 01:51:39,520
Speaker 2: And you're saying that.

1887
01:51:40,600 --> 01:51:45,880
Speaker 3: Initially the Muslim scholars have said it's it's Alexander, but

1888
01:51:46,199 --> 01:51:47,720
now they don't, or there's debate.

1889
01:51:48,359 --> 01:51:51,159
Speaker 1: Some still say that it's Alexander, but most of them

1890
01:51:51,199 --> 01:51:55,000
nowadays deny it. But it's, yeah, it's in early Islamic history.

1891
01:51:55,079 --> 01:51:58,039
The interation. What's very clear that this is a reference

1892
01:51:58,079 --> 01:51:59,000
to Alexander the Great.

1893
01:51:59,600 --> 01:52:02,840
Speaker 3: Yes, there's another example of just something being misunderstood. Yeah yeah,

1894
01:52:03,159 --> 01:52:05,119
So what would now do they say that it's just

1895
01:52:05,199 --> 01:52:06,640
some unknown ruler or something.

1896
01:52:07,039 --> 01:52:10,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, most likely they usually say that it's it's that

1897
01:52:11,039 --> 01:52:13,960
that we don't know who it is. But that's also

1898
01:52:14,079 --> 01:52:17,119
very funny because there's just some guy mentioned here, a

1899
01:52:17,119 --> 01:52:19,199
little car name. You have no idea who it is,

1900
01:52:21,239 --> 01:52:21,560
that's it.

1901
01:52:21,920 --> 01:52:22,119
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1902
01:52:25,199 --> 01:52:27,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. Plus he also builds a wall here that is

1903
01:52:27,880 --> 01:52:31,880
supposed to prevent Gog and Magogue, also a narrative taken

1904
01:52:31,920 --> 01:52:36,159
from the Bible and previous beliefs.

1905
01:52:37,399 --> 01:52:41,159
Speaker 3: Well, that's interesting because that's Ezekiel. But there's no ravens

1906
01:52:41,239 --> 01:52:43,039
or explanation to what Ezekiel's talking about.

1907
01:52:43,520 --> 01:52:45,399
Speaker 1: But here here it's like he builds a wall, and

1908
01:52:45,560 --> 01:52:49,800
Gog and Magog are these these these beings, these corruptors,

1909
01:52:51,680 --> 01:52:54,039
and they are behind that wall, and they are to

1910
01:52:54,199 --> 01:52:57,600
this day still trying to get through that wall, and

1911
01:52:57,800 --> 01:52:59,920
one day they will make a hole into the wall

1912
01:53:00,000 --> 01:53:01,319
and they will invade the whole world.

1913
01:53:02,000 --> 01:53:04,960
Speaker 3: And basically, well, now I'm getting this is in my mind,

1914
01:53:05,920 --> 01:53:07,840
what is this sounds like the plot of.

1915
01:53:09,640 --> 01:53:13,000
Speaker 2: What was the Avengers? Were the like making up.

1916
01:53:13,079 --> 01:53:14,960
Speaker 3: They're making a hole in the sky and the member

1917
01:53:15,000 --> 01:53:16,920
they come through the portal? Is that what we're talking about?

1918
01:53:17,920 --> 01:53:21,079
Speaker 1: Something like that. I've I've never watched you in movies, actually,

1919
01:53:21,760 --> 01:53:22,199
very honest.

1920
01:53:23,000 --> 01:53:24,760
Speaker 3: What does this mean? This hole in the wall and

1921
01:53:24,760 --> 01:53:26,199
they're trying to get through to this day.

1922
01:53:28,720 --> 01:53:33,640
Speaker 1: Which which I think there's a I don't want to

1923
01:53:33,680 --> 01:53:36,840
explain it myself. I would like to let Muhammad explain

1924
01:53:36,880 --> 01:53:37,159
it to you.

1925
01:53:38,640 --> 01:53:41,439
Speaker 2: Uh, I was just in a hottie about that.

1926
01:53:42,119 --> 01:53:44,960
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's also here in the Qur'an. It's it is,

1927
01:53:45,560 --> 01:53:47,520
but it is more any more detail described in the

1928
01:53:48,359 --> 01:53:52,079
so here it is mentions They said, although we're kind

1929
01:53:52,079 --> 01:53:54,920
of indeed, Gog and Magogue are corruptors in the land,

1930
01:53:55,079 --> 01:53:57,159
So may we assigned for you an expenditure that you

1931
01:53:57,239 --> 01:54:01,319
may make a barrier between them and us? And he

1932
01:54:01,640 --> 01:54:05,479
does that. He builds a huge wall, and it says

1933
01:54:05,600 --> 01:54:08,000
so they were unable to pass over it, know, were

1934
01:54:08,039 --> 01:54:12,119
they able to penetrate it? And then it further says,

1935
01:54:12,600 --> 01:54:17,479
but one day much will be blown and will assemble

1936
01:54:17,560 --> 01:54:22,159
them in an assembly. Yeah, one day they will get over.

1937
01:54:22,399 --> 01:54:24,279
Speaker 2: I guess, like, is this a literal wall?

1938
01:54:24,399 --> 01:54:27,319
Speaker 3: Or is there like some spiritual reality where they can't.

1939
01:54:29,520 --> 01:54:37,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to now invoke Muhammed. Here ah, here is Mohammed.

1940
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:42,680
According to the Hadis, it says the prophet got up

1941
01:54:42,680 --> 01:54:44,960
from his sleep with a flushed red face and said,

1942
01:54:45,399 --> 01:54:47,640
none has the right to be worship about Allah. Woe

1943
01:54:47,720 --> 01:54:51,600
to the Arabs from the great evil that is nearly

1944
01:54:51,640 --> 01:54:54,600
approaching them. Today a gap has been made in the

1945
01:54:54,720 --> 01:54:58,079
wall of gog and magogue like this, and he makes

1946
01:54:58,119 --> 01:55:01,680
a number. It was asked, shall we be destroyed though

1947
01:55:01,720 --> 01:55:04,439
they are righteous people among us? The prophet said, yes,

1948
01:55:04,520 --> 01:55:07,000
if evil is increased. So it is actually a wall,

1949
01:55:07,359 --> 01:55:09,600
and they're trying to dig through that wall. But it

1950
01:55:09,960 --> 01:55:12,800
gets even better, it gets even better.

1951
01:55:13,279 --> 01:55:16,479
Speaker 2: This is bizarre, it is.

1952
01:55:17,720 --> 01:55:20,960
Speaker 1: It is very bizarre, very very bizarre.

1953
01:55:23,239 --> 01:55:25,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, it says the afflictions of the end of the world.

1954
01:55:25,680 --> 01:55:28,800
So does that mean that this wall in the hole

1955
01:55:29,199 --> 01:55:31,000
has that they're trying to dig has been going on

1956
01:55:31,239 --> 01:55:31,600
from that?

1957
01:55:33,239 --> 01:55:37,399
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, it gets very very ridiculous. So this is

1958
01:55:40,800 --> 01:55:46,680
a description about the end times, and it says he

1959
01:55:46,840 --> 01:55:48,960
mentioned the job. They said, I will descendhim, kill and

1960
01:55:49,000 --> 01:55:50,520
then people will return to their own nets and will

1961
01:55:50,520 --> 01:55:53,239
be confronted with Gog and Magogue, people who will swoop

1962
01:55:53,319 --> 01:55:56,439
down from every mound. They will not pass by any water,

1963
01:55:56,560 --> 01:55:59,079
but they will drink it by anything, but they will

1964
01:55:59,159 --> 01:56:02,560
spoil it. They will the people will besieged Allah, and

1965
01:56:03,800 --> 01:56:06,000
I will pray to Allah to kill them. The earth

1966
01:56:06,039 --> 01:56:09,680
will be filled with their stench and the people will

1967
01:56:09,680 --> 01:56:11,359
besieged Allah, and I will pray to a lot and

1968
01:56:11,439 --> 01:56:15,119
the sky will send down rain. Uh. Then the mountains

1969
01:56:15,119 --> 01:56:21,479
will turn to dust and the earth and this and that. Uh. Okay,

1970
01:56:21,680 --> 01:56:24,760
there's one description, but there's there's even more. It gets

1971
01:56:24,840 --> 01:56:29,560
very bizarre. It gets very very bizarre. So it describes,

1972
01:56:30,279 --> 01:56:35,359
I go back to the the things here ah Gog

1973
01:56:35,399 --> 01:56:36,720
and Magog. Gog and Magog.

1974
01:56:37,079 --> 01:56:39,199
Speaker 2: Are they are these strong head eats.

1975
01:56:39,840 --> 01:56:45,439
Speaker 1: Ah yeah yeah. Bugari is always strong, very reliable. Some

1976
01:56:45,600 --> 01:56:47,760
of them are from different sources, but they are also

1977
01:56:47,880 --> 01:56:55,359
marked as sh authentic. M Gog and Magogue dig every

1978
01:56:55,439 --> 01:56:57,399
day until when they can almost see the rays of

1979
01:56:57,439 --> 01:56:59,319
the sun. The one in charge of them says, go

1980
01:56:59,520 --> 01:57:02,680
back and we will dig it tomorrow. Then Allah puts

1981
01:57:02,720 --> 01:57:05,680
it back stronger than it was before. This will continue

1982
01:57:05,800 --> 01:57:08,159
until when their time has come. Allah wants to send

1983
01:57:08,199 --> 01:57:10,960
them against the people. They will dig until they can

1984
01:57:11,000 --> 01:57:12,680
almost see the rays of the sun. Then they were

1985
01:57:12,720 --> 01:57:14,159
the one who is in charge of them will say,

1986
01:57:14,239 --> 01:57:16,680
go back, and it will dig it tomorrow if Allah wills.

1987
01:57:17,000 --> 01:57:20,439
So they will say, if Allah wills, then they will

1988
01:57:20,479 --> 01:57:22,439
come back to it and it will be as they

1989
01:57:22,560 --> 01:57:24,479
left it. So they will dig and it will come

1990
01:57:24,520 --> 01:57:26,720
out to the people, and they will drink all the water.

1991
01:57:27,039 --> 01:57:30,119
People will fortify themselves. They will shoot their arrows towards

1992
01:57:30,159 --> 01:57:33,199
the sky, and they will come back with blood on them,

1993
01:57:33,560 --> 01:57:35,760
and they will say, we have defeated the people of

1994
01:57:35,840 --> 01:57:40,600
the earth and dominated the people of heaven. Then Allah

1995
01:57:40,640 --> 01:57:43,199
will send a worm in the names of their necks

1996
01:57:43,239 --> 01:57:45,520
and will kill them thereby, and so on and then

1997
01:57:45,760 --> 01:57:47,479
and then there will be a beast of the earth

1998
01:57:47,560 --> 01:57:51,720
that will be let's loose. This is all stun so.

1999
01:57:51,880 --> 01:57:55,560
Speaker 3: This is another layer of what I would say from

2000
01:57:55,640 --> 01:57:59,319
the Christian biblical perspective of kind of cobbling together things

2001
01:57:59,520 --> 01:58:04,439
in Ezekiel that are kind of mysterious, and but I mean,

2002
01:58:04,479 --> 01:58:07,800
there's nothing, you know what there is. There's a text

2003
01:58:07,960 --> 01:58:13,119
in Ezekiel where Ezekiel is he is talking about the

2004
01:58:13,520 --> 01:58:17,000
Jews who were engaged in pagan worship and that they

2005
01:58:17,079 --> 01:58:21,239
had dug out under the wall of the temple a

2006
01:58:21,399 --> 01:58:26,319
secret place where they were worshiping like pagan gods. H.

2007
01:58:26,880 --> 01:58:30,640
So that's famously the same book where we get Gog

2008
01:58:30,760 --> 01:58:33,439
and Megod from the latter chapters of Ezekiel. I'm just speculating.

2009
01:58:33,640 --> 01:58:37,199
I'm thinking that they might have heard stories from Ezekiel

2010
01:58:37,279 --> 01:58:41,279
about digging through the wall, and then Muhammed is creatively

2011
01:58:41,399 --> 01:58:44,279
kind of cobbling this together and saying, this is an

2012
01:58:44,399 --> 01:58:47,119
end Times narrative of a wall that the Jews and

2013
01:58:47,199 --> 01:58:48,279
other people try to dig through.

2014
01:58:48,359 --> 01:58:53,159
Speaker 1: You see what I'm saying, interesting perspective, just speculating. In

2015
01:58:53,199 --> 01:58:56,000
the ends, we cannot know what exactly happened there, But

2016
01:58:57,159 --> 01:59:00,079
as point of Chule, there is a lot of There

2017
01:59:00,079 --> 01:59:03,479
are lots of references in the Quran where it continues

2018
01:59:03,600 --> 01:59:07,920
saying and they say that these are just stories of

2019
01:59:08,000 --> 01:59:11,680
the old They say, he hears what he believes whatever

2020
01:59:11,760 --> 01:59:17,399
he says. So these are Koran verses about Muhammad, and

2021
01:59:17,520 --> 01:59:20,600
these Choran verses basically tell us that the people around

2022
01:59:20,720 --> 01:59:24,199
him kept accusing him of taking stories from others, from

2023
01:59:24,239 --> 01:59:29,000
people around him, from believing whatever people say, from making

2024
01:59:29,079 --> 01:59:34,600
things up, of being crazy and so on. So it's

2025
01:59:34,800 --> 01:59:38,760
we can speculate, but it looks like he just got

2026
01:59:38,840 --> 01:59:45,079
a lot of myths and some true stories, some falsehood

2027
01:59:45,159 --> 01:59:48,399
some complete misunderstandings and mixed them all together and presented

2028
01:59:48,479 --> 01:59:49,399
them as revelations.

2029
01:59:49,520 --> 01:59:51,279
Speaker 3: Well, we have a lot of I mean that that

2030
01:59:51,479 --> 01:59:54,880
end time's kind of stuff there. I mean, I've spent

2031
01:59:54,960 --> 01:59:59,359
many years researching and reading and looking at evangelical approaches

2032
01:59:59,399 --> 02:00:02,079
to end time stuff, and I see a lot of

2033
02:00:02,119 --> 02:00:05,560
parallels there with that, where they'll kind of cobble together

2034
02:00:05,720 --> 02:00:09,640
a bunch of very ambiguous, you know, Old Testament passages,

2035
02:00:09,800 --> 02:00:13,119
especially Ezekiel's latter chapters about Gog and Magog, and it

2036
02:00:13,159 --> 02:00:15,840
gets kind of cobbled together in this jumbled narrative that

2037
02:00:15,880 --> 02:00:18,439
always talking about Russia, and it's talking about the end

2038
02:00:18,439 --> 02:00:20,880
of the world in China, And I mean, I don't

2039
02:00:20,960 --> 02:00:22,920
know what the end of the world is going to

2040
02:00:22,960 --> 02:00:25,640
be like, but I don't think that, you know, the

2041
02:00:25,720 --> 02:00:28,840
evangelicals kind of have the they don't know what they're

2042
02:00:28,840 --> 02:00:31,279
talking about, as I'm trying to say. And I sense

2043
02:00:31,399 --> 02:00:38,319
the same kind of extremities and cobbling together with Muhammad

2044
02:00:38,359 --> 02:00:42,279
in those passages that we see, for example, evangelicals doing

2045
02:00:42,399 --> 02:00:46,720
with passages from ezekiel Eschatology.

2046
02:00:46,239 --> 02:00:50,720
Speaker 1: Is a very very interesting, very enticing thing, right two people.

2047
02:00:52,079 --> 02:00:55,560
It's talking about the end times, talking about the tribulations,

2048
02:00:55,600 --> 02:00:59,000
all the stuff that will happen as something that people

2049
02:00:59,000 --> 02:01:03,199
are always fascinated by. It's also a very easy topic.

2050
02:01:04,520 --> 02:01:08,039
I can imagine that in the seventh century in Arabia.

2051
02:01:08,880 --> 02:01:10,199
Speaker 2: It would play well with an audience.

2052
02:01:10,319 --> 02:01:13,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, where people do not study much, do not know much,

2053
02:01:13,279 --> 02:01:16,640
don't know anything. It is very easy to get everyone's

2054
02:01:16,680 --> 02:01:18,960
attention by talking about the end times and all the

2055
02:01:19,359 --> 02:01:22,399
fantastic stuff that will happen then. And it's it's quite

2056
02:01:22,800 --> 02:01:26,119
believable that Muhammad got his fair portion of that of

2057
02:01:26,239 --> 02:01:28,760
all of that and then turned to that into a

2058
02:01:28,920 --> 02:01:33,159
revelation which he then presents to his own audience. Because

2059
02:01:33,159 --> 02:01:35,840
it works so well, and there we have it.

2060
02:01:36,359 --> 02:01:39,000
Speaker 3: It would be interesting to see a similar type of

2061
02:01:39,079 --> 02:01:43,960
breakdown of the conceptions of anti christ doj all and

2062
02:01:44,000 --> 02:01:45,520
all that kind of stuff that you that you were

2063
02:01:45,560 --> 02:01:48,359
referencing the way that you were talking about, how you know,

2064
02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:53,880
to Christianity, the resurrection has a really significant role. Antichrist

2065
02:01:53,960 --> 02:01:56,640
is not as significant, but it does play a key

2066
02:01:56,800 --> 02:01:59,439
role in some of the you know, apocalyptic texts of

2067
02:01:59,439 --> 02:01:59,840
the Bible.

2068
02:02:00,399 --> 02:02:03,000
Speaker 2: I'm curious. I'd be interested to see in what way

2069
02:02:03,800 --> 02:02:07,640
it's misunderstood or sort of cobbled together in Islam because

2070
02:02:07,640 --> 02:02:09,840
I didn't I didn't know about those passages there with

2071
02:02:09,960 --> 02:02:11,439
your fascinating UH.

2072
02:02:12,000 --> 02:02:18,520
Speaker 1: It's funny. The ja literally means deceiver or something along

2073
02:02:18,560 --> 02:02:24,199
along those lines. So the actual, the actual long form

2074
02:02:24,319 --> 02:02:28,920
name is which is the false Messiah or the deceiving Messiah. Uh.

2075
02:02:29,399 --> 02:02:33,000
It's directly adopted from Christianity but then presented in a

2076
02:02:33,319 --> 02:02:36,239
completely different way and then Islam. The narrative is basically

2077
02:02:36,359 --> 02:02:41,119
that the job, the false Messiah will come uh at

2078
02:02:41,159 --> 02:02:44,720
the end, and he will basically claim to be God.

2079
02:02:45,720 --> 02:02:47,800
Very interesting stuff. He will claim to be God, and

2080
02:02:47,880 --> 02:02:50,600
he will raise people from the dead. He will kill

2081
02:02:50,680 --> 02:02:52,399
somebody and raise him from the from the dead, and

2082
02:02:52,720 --> 02:02:53,720
he will be sound.

2083
02:02:53,680 --> 02:02:55,560
Speaker 3: These sound like I mean, that sounds like Paul and

2084
02:02:55,600 --> 02:02:58,840
Second Thesalonians, and it sounds like chapters of the Revelation.

2085
02:02:59,319 --> 02:03:03,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he will he will claim to be Allah,

2086
02:03:03,760 --> 02:03:06,840
and people will follow him because he will be so

2087
02:03:07,920 --> 02:03:11,560
so so amazing. But the true believers, they will immediately

2088
02:03:11,640 --> 02:03:14,319
recognize him and they will not follow him. And then

2089
02:03:14,560 --> 02:03:17,399
at the same time, Jesus will come down from the

2090
02:03:17,479 --> 02:03:19,279
sky as a Muslim and.

2091
02:03:21,039 --> 02:03:24,159
Speaker 2: So this this is crib from the apocalypse, and he.

2092
02:03:24,159 --> 02:03:26,640
Speaker 1: Will he will basically fight, fight them, fight to the

2093
02:03:26,760 --> 02:03:30,640
jar and and then pray together with the Muslims. And

2094
02:03:31,560 --> 02:03:33,399
according to the Hadith, he will come and break the

2095
02:03:33,479 --> 02:03:34,840
cross and kill the pig.

2096
02:03:37,000 --> 02:03:38,600
Speaker 3: And break the Christian cross.

2097
02:03:39,000 --> 02:03:40,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, break the Christians.

2098
02:03:40,039 --> 02:03:40,600
Speaker 2: Who's the pig?

2099
02:03:41,680 --> 02:03:44,279
Speaker 1: Uh, the pig is just killed, he says, kill the swine.

2100
02:03:44,279 --> 02:03:47,359
That's what Muhammed said. Kill the pig again. He just

2101
02:03:47,439 --> 02:03:49,680
he just kills the pigs and for no reason.

2102
02:03:50,399 --> 02:03:54,359
Speaker 3: And wait, literal pigs are like the people are called pigs.

2103
02:03:54,800 --> 02:03:58,399
Speaker 1: No, it's it's it's literal pigs. So he comes, and.

2104
02:04:00,079 --> 02:04:00,920
Speaker 2: Surely you're joking.

2105
02:04:01,680 --> 02:04:03,119
Speaker 1: He will come and he'll be like, don't eat this.

2106
02:04:03,439 --> 02:04:04,319
I don't know why exactly.

2107
02:04:04,359 --> 02:04:06,399
Speaker 3: He's gonna becaus gone clean.

2108
02:04:06,760 --> 02:04:09,439
Speaker 1: I guess so. But so what Momma says is he

2109
02:04:09,479 --> 02:04:12,680
will come and he will break the cross and kill

2110
02:04:12,760 --> 02:04:14,439
the pig. I will prove to you that I'm not

2111
02:04:14,560 --> 02:04:15,239
joking about it.

2112
02:04:17,319 --> 02:04:17,960
Speaker 2: I just I guess.

2113
02:04:18,000 --> 02:04:19,720
Speaker 3: I just keep wanting giving the benefit of the doubt

2114
02:04:19,760 --> 02:04:22,760
and think, well, surely they mean like the swine symbolic

2115
02:04:22,880 --> 02:04:30,640
of evil people. But you're saying, actually just kill Well,

2116
02:04:30,680 --> 02:04:33,119
I guess at the end of the world, those pigs

2117
02:04:33,199 --> 02:04:34,199
do have to get dealt with.

2118
02:04:34,399 --> 02:04:37,760
Speaker 1: I mean, like, yeah, somebody has to do something about this.

2119
02:04:44,439 --> 02:04:45,319
Speaker 2: Well, okay, there you go.

2120
02:04:45,960 --> 02:04:48,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, so a lot of messages at the r will

2121
02:04:48,840 --> 02:04:50,840
not be established until the Son of Mary the sense

2122
02:04:50,880 --> 02:04:54,039
amongst you, as a just ruler. He will break the cross,

2123
02:04:54,199 --> 02:04:55,840
kill the pigs, and abolished.

2124
02:04:57,560 --> 02:05:00,279
Speaker 3: Do they have like explanations of oh, this symbol lies

2125
02:05:01,119 --> 02:05:02,720
the unbelievers or something.

2126
02:05:02,560 --> 02:05:07,119
Speaker 1: Or I haven't looked in length into this, but I

2127
02:05:07,359 --> 02:05:09,319
know that it's that It's like the explanation is just

2128
02:05:09,600 --> 02:05:12,520
that it's it's it's actually pigs, and the cross is

2129
02:05:12,600 --> 02:05:15,800
actual cross, and he will he will literally break it

2130
02:05:15,920 --> 02:05:20,039
to confirm that the cross belief is false. Yeah. Yeah,

2131
02:05:20,159 --> 02:05:24,199
so these are the priorities of Jesus when he comes back.

2132
02:05:24,520 --> 02:05:27,600
Speaker 3: Well, I guess if look, if Jesus does descend and

2133
02:05:28,840 --> 02:05:30,840
break the cross and destroy the kill all the pigs,

2134
02:05:30,920 --> 02:05:32,399
I guess I'll have to be a Muslim at that

2135
02:05:33,560 --> 02:05:34,520
that happens.

2136
02:05:34,279 --> 02:05:39,319
Speaker 1: Right, especially if you see him kill the pig. I

2137
02:05:39,560 --> 02:05:45,119
can't believe that was actually correct. So wow, that's messed up.

2138
02:05:45,319 --> 02:05:50,000
Speaker 3: That's crazy, all right, I mean, uh, really instructive, instructive

2139
02:05:50,039 --> 02:05:52,520
and insightful talk. I always enjoyed talking to you. It's

2140
02:05:52,560 --> 02:05:54,880
really funny too, by the way, same thank you for

2141
02:05:54,960 --> 02:05:56,960
all that that insight there. You always learn from you.

2142
02:05:57,000 --> 02:05:57,600
Speaker 2: I appreciate that.

2143
02:05:58,199 --> 02:06:00,239
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I I really I of the

2144
02:06:00,279 --> 02:06:02,840
debate that you had. It was like your opening was

2145
02:06:04,319 --> 02:06:06,720
an education for Daniel, and then he came and just

2146
02:06:06,840 --> 02:06:09,560
messed it all up with this very primitive approach to

2147
02:06:10,159 --> 02:06:14,920
the scripture. So mad respect for that as well. And

2148
02:06:15,279 --> 02:06:16,760
I'll always be happy to have you here.

2149
02:06:16,880 --> 02:06:19,760
Speaker 3: Jay, absolutely, yeah, thank you. I'm glad to be glad

2150
02:06:19,760 --> 02:06:22,720
to be back on and anytime you want to chat again,

2151
02:06:23,039 --> 02:06:24,760
I'm down absolutely.

2152
02:06:25,640 --> 02:06:29,279
Speaker 1: Thanks everyone for joining. Have a fantastic day. I'll see

2153
02:06:29,319 --> 02:06:34,399
you soon and stay away from Islam, all right.

2154
02:06:34,479 --> 02:06:34,920
Speaker 2: Thanks man,