Speaker 1: It's night Side with Dan Ray Unowny Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2: By the way, before we get to my next guest
Speaker 2: here on the eleven o'clock hour, I would like to
Speaker 2: emphasize that we've had some really interesting guests this week.
Speaker 2: We're about to have another one, but I would suggest
Speaker 2: that any of you who have missed any Nightside hours
Speaker 2: this week can go to Nightside undemand dot com. That
Speaker 2: is our our one of our websites for what's our
Speaker 2: website for our podcast. So the conversation we've had with
Speaker 2: Professor John Ebel of Boston College the Weston Observatory on
Speaker 2: earthquakes on Wednesday night at nine o'clock. We did a
Speaker 2: couple of hours last night on the RFK cabinet hearings
Speaker 2: as well as as well as some talk last night
Speaker 2: of the DC plane crash. Tonight, of course, we talked
Speaker 2: about the DC plane crash for two hours, and I
Speaker 2: think we had some excellent callers between in both nine
Speaker 2: in the ten o'clock hours and then earlier this week
Speaker 2: on Tuesday night, we talked about the executive orders filed
Speaker 2: by President Trump. And I know some of them are controversial,
Speaker 2: but the executive order ordering that all the files, all
Speaker 2: the nation's files on the assassinations of President Kennedy, Senator
Speaker 2: Robert Kennedy's Robert F. Kennedy, and doctor Reverend Martin Luther
Speaker 2: King be open to the public. That was both ten
Speaker 2: and eleven on Tuesday night. Those were some great hours.
Speaker 2: So if you need some on the way to work
Speaker 2: tomorrow or during the day tomorrow, just check it out
Speaker 2: Nightside on demand dot com. You will be thoroughly entertained
Speaker 2: and perhaps even informed. I know you got This is
Speaker 2: going to be a great hour because we had this
Speaker 2: gentleman with us earlier this month. He's a mental health expert,
Speaker 2: doctor Don Grant, and we're talking about people who are
Speaker 2: literally addicted to the Internet, to all the various and
Speaker 2: sundry arms of the Internet. Doctor Grant, welcome back to
Speaker 2: night Side.
Speaker 3: Thanks Dan, thanks for having me back. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Now give us a little bit of your We had
Speaker 2: a brief conversation earlier this month. I think it was
Speaker 2: the first week or the second week of January, and
Speaker 2: I wanted to bring you back so that people could
Speaker 2: ask your questions. In the eight o'clock hour. It's just
Speaker 2: me talking with four guests, and I thought that, well,
Speaker 2: I just was convinced that I wanted to talk to
Speaker 2: you longer. What is your academic background? Give us just
Speaker 2: that it's a pretty impressive background, but I want you
Speaker 2: to share it with my audience so they get a
Speaker 2: sense of who you are, and then we'll get into
Speaker 2: the issue that we're going to discuss.
Speaker 3: Sure, and I'll try to do this quickly, but I'll
Speaker 3: say that, you know, my mother passed away a long
Speaker 3: time ago. But whenever I'm asked this because I try,
Speaker 3: you know, I get a little humble. I just always think, gosh,
Speaker 3: I wish my mom could.
Speaker 2: She used to tell me self, praise is no praise. This,
Speaker 2: this is just a fact right ahead.
Speaker 3: She would do a much better job. She She spend
Speaker 3: a whole hour telling you about me, and I don't
Speaker 3: know how much of it would be true. But so,
Speaker 3: my name is doctor Don Grant. I'm a media psychologist.
Speaker 3: I'm also a doctoral addictions counselor. So you know, I
Speaker 3: have a doctorate. I actually have an Master's of Arts.
Speaker 3: I have a Master of Fine Arts. I have degrees
Speaker 3: an addiction and all of that. I'm also I'm a
Speaker 3: Fellow of the American Psychological Association. I am the National
Speaker 3: Advisor of Healthy Device Management for Newport Healthcare. I do research,
Speaker 3: I write, I have trendous opportunities like this one that
Speaker 3: I get to speak with you and your listeners today.
Speaker 3: But I just want to make it clear right from
Speaker 3: the top, which I always do whenever I speak or present.
Speaker 3: I am not into technology. I am not anti devices,
Speaker 3: I am not anti internet. I'm not anti social media,
Speaker 3: anti gaming. Sometimes, because my reputation often precedes me, the
Speaker 3: person that I am going to be introduced to says,
Speaker 3: oh no, not that guy, he's going to take away
Speaker 3: my PlayStation. I'm like, not necessarily calm down. So what
Speaker 3: I teach and promote is healthy device management and the
Speaker 3: practice of good digital citizenship. So it's about balance and
Speaker 3: making sure that you know these devices and the services
Speaker 3: and platforms and things they deliver are not something that
Speaker 3: is detrimental or unhealthy or causing us to be unwell.
Speaker 3: You know, there's a thing that I always say, and
Speaker 3: it's the first slide of almost every presentation I do,
Speaker 3: and it's from Henry David Thieaux, who in eighteen fifty
Speaker 3: four wrote in the book Walden men have become the
Speaker 3: tools of their tools. Now before I don't think the
Speaker 3: Mistress the Roau had any idea about what we are
Speaker 3: talking and devices of the topic and focus of our conversation.
Speaker 3: But I just saw that a long time ago and
Speaker 3: I thought, Wow, I feel that can be so applicable today.
Speaker 3: Men have become the tools of their tools because all
Speaker 3: of these things that we're going to talk about, and
Speaker 3: hopefully your listeners will call in and ask questions about Dan,
Speaker 3: these were, and I believe should be tools. But what
Speaker 3: you were saying about how we've become so dependent upon them.
Speaker 3: A lot of the work that I do, a lot
Speaker 3: of the clients that I work with, whether it's the
Speaker 3: Newport or my private practice, or with schools or communities,
Speaker 3: it's the people will tell me, no, I feel like
Speaker 3: this thing owns me. So I just wanted to put
Speaker 3: that over an overview of whatever we end up talking
Speaker 3: about today.
Speaker 2: Makes a little bit great. Bag Boy Coast. You're on
Speaker 2: the left coast, you guys are based, and where is it,
Speaker 2: Santa Monics.
Speaker 3: I'm in Los Angeles, Yeah, in Los Angeles.
Speaker 2: Okay. I hope that you have avoided the fires out there,
Speaker 2: needless needless to say, and you're with this this it's
Speaker 2: called Newport Healthcare.
Speaker 3: Correct, Yes, So what like I said, I'm the National
Speaker 3: Advisor of Healthy Device Management for Newport Healthcare. And so
Speaker 3: you know, that's that's what my uh A lot of
Speaker 3: my work gets to get to do through Newport and
Speaker 3: basically Newport Healthcare. I can just just let me get
Speaker 3: this done. So we have it. So Newport Healthcare, others
Speaker 3: read you what they are. Newport Healthcare is the nation's
Speaker 3: leading provider of evidence based behavioral health treatment for youth,
Speaker 3: young adults, and families. Are we We're comprised of Newport Academy,
Speaker 3: Newport Institute, the Center for Families, and Prairie Care. We
Speaker 3: have a full content continuum of care. It includes residential services,
Speaker 3: partial hospitalization services, intentsive outpatient services for mental health and
Speaker 3: substance use disorders, as well as psychiatric inpatient services. Newport
Speaker 3: is family centered, integrated and our approach FOSTER is sustainable
Speaker 3: healing from a foundation of compassionate care, clinical expertise, and
Speaker 3: unconditional love, with a primary mission to empower lives and
Speaker 3: restore families. So that's what we are, and that's just
Speaker 3: that's I just have it out there it.
Speaker 2: Is, okay, so we've we've got all the information, all
Speaker 2: the discussion, to the to the conversation, and that is
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who have changed their lives,
Speaker 2: changed their relationships during COVID and after COVID, and a
Speaker 2: lot of people, UH have now become much more reliable
Speaker 2: on social media interactions oftentimes interactions which are simply observational.
Speaker 2: They're not even interactions, they're observing of other people again,
Speaker 2: whether it's Facebook or Twitter, Instagram or TikTok. And it
Speaker 2: seems to me that if you become too dependent on that,
Speaker 2: you lose your ability to interact with real people and
Speaker 2: it almost becomes a sultifying relationship that you have chosen
Speaker 2: to engage in. How far off reality am I when
Speaker 2: I present that to you in that way, doctor.
Speaker 3: Well, you are spot on. And that's a lot of
Speaker 3: what I do. And that's why when I say that
Speaker 3: I teach healthy device management, I mean, look, we all
Speaker 3: know this. We live in this world. Everything, I mean
Speaker 3: increasingly more everything has some sort of digital attachment. I mean,
Speaker 3: if it doesn't, it probably will soon. It's what you said,
Speaker 3: our reliance and you bring up so many great points
Speaker 3: because I think that anyone who lives in the world
Speaker 3: now and lives in has devices, which we all do.
Speaker 3: They can just think for themselves. I mean, how do
Speaker 3: they feel about it? How often do you reach for
Speaker 3: that device when you're sitting anywhere, standing anywhere, even crossing
Speaker 3: the street that is so dangerous in your car? How
Speaker 3: often we find ourselves just uncontrollably reaching for that device. Now,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of reasons, and we already know that
Speaker 3: the developers and creators of these things, that's what they want,
Speaker 3: that's how they were designed. They use psychological tricks and
Speaker 3: leveraging our Olympic system and all kinds of things to
Speaker 3: get us onto those devices and keep us there, because
Speaker 3: attention economy is now one of the most valuable assets
Speaker 3: if everyone wants our attention and to keep it, and
Speaker 3: so getting us in there and keeping us in is
Speaker 3: the whole goal. And I tell people, Dan, you just
Speaker 3: had to remember, especially when you're talking about social media,
Speaker 3: it's free. You're the product. These creators are not these
Speaker 3: social medias that are not public services that they're offering.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's almost it should almost be characterized as
Speaker 2: anti social media because the more that you spend in
Speaker 2: that relationship with the screen. I think about, you know,
Speaker 2: social as being interacting with other human beings or maybe
Speaker 2: interacting with your pass even, but not with an inanimate
Speaker 2: object like the screen. So look, let's take a break.
Speaker 2: When I come back, I want I want to push
Speaker 2: you a little bit in terms of how can people
Speaker 2: maintain a healthy relationship with social media and how can
Speaker 2: they know when that relationship is going in a bad direction.
Speaker 3: So you're asking all the right questions, I can't wait.
Speaker 2: Okay, well we'll get to those right after the break.
Speaker 2: My guest is doctor Don Grant, prominent mental health expert
Speaker 2: media psychologist. He will take your questions if you have
Speaker 2: some concerns about the amount of time you're spending away
Speaker 2: from human beings and with your devices, and you want
Speaker 2: to ask a question, or if you just want to
Speaker 2: ask a question about where are we headed as a society.
Speaker 2: I got questions, but I will prefer to hear your
Speaker 2: questions right here in North America's back porch. It's a
Speaker 2: cold and it's going to be a rainy thank god,
Speaker 2: not a snowy Friday here in New England. We'll get
Speaker 2: you started. Stick with us. My name is Dan Ray,
Speaker 2: We're here until midnight. We'll take you all the way
Speaker 2: until the final day of January. We're almost through January, folks.
Speaker 2: Spring is on the way. Baseball starts next month with
Speaker 2: spring training. All's good with the world except social media.
Speaker 2: Back on night Side six one, seven, two, five, four,
Speaker 2: ten thirty, six one seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty
Speaker 2: and triple eight nine to nine, ten thirty. Back on
Speaker 2: night Side after this.
Speaker 1: Now back to Dan Ray Live from the Window World
Speaker 1: Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: My guest is doctor Don Grant. He is a prominent
Speaker 2: mental health expert with the Newport Healthcare Institute. We are
Speaker 2: talking about your relationship with your devices, your social media devices.
Speaker 2: My producer Rob just said to me he likes to read,
Speaker 2: and what's the difference between reading and being involved in
Speaker 2: social media. I think that in order to read, you
Speaker 2: have to think. I don't think you have to think
Speaker 2: when you're sitting looking at TikTok videos or reels on Facebook.
Speaker 2: So how do you know When we talk about addiction,
Speaker 2: Normally we think about drugs, we think about alcohol, and
Speaker 2: it's very difficult to know when you have reached that
Speaker 2: point of addiction in anything that you become dependent on
Speaker 2: you know, we have you know, supposedly you know alcoholics
Speaker 2: who are functioning alcoholics. They may be they may drink
Speaker 2: all weekend, but Monday morning, when the bell rings, they're
Speaker 2: ready at work. Theoretically, how do you know when maybe
Speaker 2: your reliance on social media is becoming a little more
Speaker 2: than it should be, Doctor Grant.
Speaker 3: That's a great question, and in someone who you know. Also,
Speaker 3: one of my wheelhouses is addiction, and I have no
Speaker 3: problem and it's I'm not that difficult to find online,
Speaker 3: so it's pretty easily discovered. I've been in recovery for
Speaker 3: a very long time myself. But you take up all
Speaker 3: the point you're saying, I mean, they're they're fantastic, Dan,
Speaker 3: So let's talk about the addiction or dependency kind of
Speaker 3: where do we cross the inflection point. One of the
Speaker 3: things that you brought up things like substance based addictions.
Speaker 3: These are one kind of addiction, and very often they're
Speaker 3: more overt. The signs and symptoms, the outcomes and consequences
Speaker 3: they tend to at a certain point if someone kind
Speaker 3: of crosses the event horizon, they become more obvious. Then
Speaker 3: there's things called process addictions. These are things like gambling.
Speaker 3: It can be exercise, it can be eating disorders, and
Speaker 3: it can so these are a little more covert and
Speaker 3: easier to hide for longer because they don't really have
Speaker 3: the kind of overt consequences. They're more personal. So here's
Speaker 3: how you know, and this is just how I do it,
Speaker 3: because I'm a psychologist. I look at it of doing
Speaker 3: a self assessment. And this is where anybody can do
Speaker 3: this about anything, because it's up to you what you decide.
Speaker 3: You don't have to tell anyone yet. So I do
Speaker 3: it this way. I go in disorder, we look at
Speaker 3: things of impact from biological, psychological, or sociological outcomes. So
Speaker 3: what I mean by that is we start with biological
Speaker 3: So is this thing that you're wondering, am I or
Speaker 3: am I not? Is it in any way if you're
Speaker 3: rigorously honest impacting your biological health, then you can look
Speaker 3: at is this thing in the same way impacting or
Speaker 3: negatively influencing or subjugating or impeding my success or my
Speaker 3: goals psychologically? In psychological depression.
Speaker 2: Jerry's biological health, I would make sure I understand what
Speaker 2: do you mean by that?
Speaker 3: Okay, let's let's talk about in terms of biological health.
Speaker 3: That's something that let's to make it easy that you
Speaker 3: would see a medical doctor for. It can be something
Speaker 3: let's talk about. And I'm just going to go into
Speaker 3: one deviceing I see a lot. So we're talking about
Speaker 3: a hardcore gamer. This is a gamer who's gaming twenty
Speaker 3: four or seventy two hours. I mean this exists. So
Speaker 3: they might experience some sort of dietary issues. They might
Speaker 3: even have carpal tunnel in their fingers there, I might
Speaker 3: have eyes strain, and I see this all the time
Speaker 3: because they're just sitting and gaming. So that's biological. Would
Speaker 3: be for devices. We were talking back when we all
Speaker 3: stared down at our phones Neanderthal neck where we are
Speaker 3: all airing down in our devices and our next starts
Speaker 3: to really hurt in the back. So those anything that
Speaker 3: you would see a doctor, a medical doctor for. If
Speaker 3: you find that this thing, whatever it is, is causing
Speaker 3: you something that is physical, a physical you know, not great,
Speaker 3: that would be biological. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: If you if you're literally are so drunk you've fallen
Speaker 2: down a flight of stairs a couple of times a week,
Speaker 2: that's a problem.
Speaker 3: Uh, Well, the drunk would be the roses of the liver.
Speaker 3: It would be all kinds of things, right.
Speaker 2: And also if in terms of gaming, if you find
Speaker 2: yourself betting on NFL exhibition football games in late July
Speaker 2: and August, you got a problem.
Speaker 3: You might be and that's gambling is a great example.
Speaker 3: That's a process addiction. People don't think that process addictions
Speaker 3: can be as serious as ones that are substance based.
Speaker 3: Oh trust me, they can.
Speaker 2: So let's go to psychological. You explained that very well. Psychological.
Speaker 3: Okay, what do you think? I mean, you got this?
Speaker 3: What do you think a psychological symptom or response or
Speaker 3: something that's not great from devices?
Speaker 4: What?
Speaker 3: What do you think it could be?
Speaker 2: I'm not a doctor.
Speaker 4: No will I play on the day.
Speaker 2: I'll take a shot at it.
Speaker 3: I'll take a shot at shot.
Speaker 2: If you walk by your computer and you can't ignore
Speaker 2: the computer and you got to sit down and check
Speaker 2: something out every day, every day, every day. I'm on
Speaker 2: the a lot more than I want to be because
Speaker 2: it's part of my job. Okay, But but if if
Speaker 2: you're going on there to see the latest TikTok videos
Speaker 2: because you're afraid you might miss one of the five
Speaker 2: million TikTok videos that are put up during the day.
Speaker 2: I think you got a psychological issue with TikTok.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm gonna take it a little further. If you
Speaker 3: say I'm just gonna watch one TikTok video, like the
Speaker 3: alcoholic who says I'm just gonna have one drink, and
Speaker 3: twelve hours later you're late for work. You've watched twelve
Speaker 3: hours at TikTok and can't remember one video. But I'm
Speaker 3: gonna talk more, really psychologically, So we're talking more about
Speaker 3: things like, know, you you go on your doom scrolling,
Speaker 3: or you go and you go on to anything on
Speaker 3: social media, our platform, or even like you said, you know,
Speaker 3: gambling can online. Gambling can have some other issues. But
Speaker 3: we're really talking psychologically about things like depression, anxiety, trauma, triggering, things,
Speaker 3: things like that, things that cause you to be mentally
Speaker 3: or psychologically just regulated. We're talking a lot recently. This
Speaker 3: is a big issue right now. I've been doing a
Speaker 3: lot of having a lot of conversations about what I
Speaker 3: call media saturation overloads syndrome. And I was talking to
Speaker 3: a journalist the other day and we're just kind of
Speaker 3: tongue in cheeks saying, oh, now everything is breaking news.
Speaker 3: So I just want to say, for one second, when
Speaker 3: I was younger, breaking news meant to zombie apocalypse, everything stops.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or the breaking the news, or the president had
Speaker 2: been assassinated. That's right, that's real break or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, you're right, you're oh, yeah, I watched sometimes break.
Speaker 2: I've worked as a TV reporter for thirty one years
Speaker 2: before I started this gig, and we didn't have break.
Speaker 2: I mean we had breaking news. We used to joke
Speaker 2: about it. We used to say in our newsroom back
Speaker 2: in the day, where news breaks, we'll fix it, or
Speaker 2: if it happened today, it's news to us. We were
Speaker 2: making fun of the people who were coming in with
Speaker 2: all this stick. It was like, just let us be
Speaker 2: journalists and cover real stories that we would say that
Speaker 2: seriously happened, you know, because you got the broadcast force
Speaker 2: that it happened today. It's news to us.
Speaker 3: Well, breaking news what we were talking about. And I
Speaker 3: think we can all agree now that's what breaking news
Speaker 3: is a big deal. Now we're experiencing and I let
Speaker 3: me just this is how it also applies to psychological
Speaker 3: and could be argued biological. So now breaking news. Breaking
Speaker 3: news now is stating there in the morning is obsolete
Speaker 3: in two hours. So what we're seeing is breaking news.
Speaker 3: Someone in the administration broke an ail two hours later,
Speaker 3: breaking news. We were wrong. It's not a broken nail. But
Speaker 3: what happens when we hear, as humans breaking news. I'm
Speaker 3: just going to share with you that our lizard brain
Speaker 3: can kick in, which is our survival brain, because we
Speaker 3: hear breaking news and it seems like we've got to
Speaker 3: be on guard that something is very serious.
Speaker 2: And so we have this Russians may have launched that's right.
Speaker 3: Well, we don't know, but we hear just the words
Speaker 3: breaking news, and that kind of the jarring stop breaking
Speaker 3: news will send without us even know. I'm sorry, it
Speaker 3: is Pavlovian. And what will happen is that in our brains,
Speaker 3: which we don't know, is that it will be released
Speaker 3: cortisol and adrenaline, and that will flood our brains when
Speaker 3: we hear breaking news because we're sure that the Martians
Speaker 3: have landed. And then so we have to realize that
Speaker 3: when those things are released in our brain, it attacks
Speaker 3: us and affects us and puts us on guard, and
Speaker 3: then it takes time for those to go away in
Speaker 3: our brain. So there's even just this breaking news thing
Speaker 3: that's every two minutes. Now, we don't even realize what's
Speaker 3: happening in our brains. So a lot of things that
Speaker 3: social media or news or headlines, and these salacious headlines
Speaker 3: and these catastrophic headlines and these images that now are
Speaker 3: so available to us are having an impact that we
Speaker 3: don't even realize is happening because of the neurology of
Speaker 3: our brains.
Speaker 2: And the other thing is, I'm surprised you're telling me
Speaker 2: the Martians haven't landed. I was pretty sure.
Speaker 3: I've heard that we're going to find out, because I
Speaker 3: also heard that you were talking about that some files
Speaker 3: are going to be released. I heard a rumor could
Speaker 3: be hashtag fake news. We're also going to find out
Speaker 3: and get some reports released about UFOs and aliens. I
Speaker 3: heard that may be coming our way too. I'm very
Speaker 3: interested in that.
Speaker 2: Well. You know, there was the congressman from New Jersey
Speaker 2: last month when they had all of the.
Speaker 3: Drones over the drones.
Speaker 2: Which I think it would be a lovely summer song,
Speaker 2: you know, drones over New Jersey.
Speaker 5: You said it was romantic.
Speaker 2: This one Congressman said that they were being launched from
Speaker 2: an Iranian ship off the coast of New Jersey. I mean,
Speaker 2: and that was great the news in a while. Okay,
Speaker 2: we got to pause here for the news of the
Speaker 2: bottom there. I know, there's a third element we're going
Speaker 2: to talk about, and then we're going to go to
Speaker 2: a phone call six one seven, four ten thirty. That's
Speaker 2: the best part of the show, always phone calls six seven,
Speaker 2: nine three one ten thirty nineteen thirty. The aliens are here,
Speaker 2: by the way, there are people who I hope one
Speaker 2: of them call. Well. Let mean, I have had some
Speaker 2: of them called trust me in eighteen years. The odds
Speaker 2: are Hey, there's certain people out there. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't want to get political or something like this,
Speaker 2: but but you've seen people on television, and I've seen
Speaker 2: people on television. Do you know the political guy James Carville,
Speaker 2: the guy who's yeah, that dude's an alien. It just
Speaker 2: look at them, look carefully, Okay. And I can find
Speaker 2: some Republicans as well, you know, the Mitt Romney guys.
Speaker 5: Find that out.
Speaker 2: We'll take a break. We'll be right back with doctor
Speaker 2: Don Grant. I promise we'll get to the phones quickly.
Speaker 2: Back on night Side. After this.
Speaker 1: Night's Side with Dan Ray on w B Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2: We're talking with Don Grant. He is someone who's going
Speaker 2: to explain to us how we can get rid of
Speaker 2: our over reliance on social media. There's a third element.
Speaker 2: You talked about biological, you talked about psychological. What's and
Speaker 2: was the third one? Sociological?
Speaker 3: You're reading my mind? You're asking such great questions. Is
Speaker 3: during the break, I was thinking, wait, we need to
Speaker 3: close the loop because we didn't. I was just thinking
Speaker 3: that we got you know, so tie track with the aliens. Yeah,
Speaker 3: So biological, psychological, then there's sociological. Sociological are our relationships,
Speaker 3: our friends, are occupations, anything that is more outside ourselves,
Speaker 3: but ourselves being mind and body and mind, bio and
Speaker 3: psych then it's a sociological. And what I was going
Speaker 3: to say because I never finished this because we got
Speaker 3: talking about other things, which is great, how do you know? Well,
Speaker 3: this is a personal thing. And I think that anyone
Speaker 3: who struggles with anything or things, they may whether it
Speaker 3: be substance based or process based. Including now there's a
Speaker 3: huge thing with shopping. Online shopping is a new process addiction.
Speaker 3: So well, how do you know? Well, here's what I
Speaker 3: suggest you do. You don't have to tell anyone, but
Speaker 3: really take a real, honest and clear self assessment and
Speaker 3: can you identify anywhere across your health, mental health, bodily health,
Speaker 3: or your social health, occupations school, can you, really, if
Speaker 3: you're honest, say, these devices and or the platforms and
Speaker 3: apps they deliver, are they causing an issue? Are they
Speaker 3: subjugating you from your success? Are you making excuses you know,
Speaker 3: to use them? And if you can find that if
Speaker 3: you're honest with yourself, yep, I hate this, but yeah
Speaker 3: that you know, those TikTok binges, I'm going on, those
Speaker 3: YouTube binges, that online gambling, that social media across any
Speaker 3: or biological, psychological or sociological parts of my life, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's causing an issue. Then you might want to look
Speaker 3: into a deeper When I work with clients Dan, and
Speaker 3: I'm working with them individually, I do this with them.
Speaker 3: We go through it honestly, and I take them through
Speaker 3: it and I say, let's go through these, let's see
Speaker 3: where might this be causing a problem, And then you
Speaker 3: can decide do you want to do anything about it?
Speaker 3: Even a small change good stuff.
Speaker 2: Good stuff. The everybody understands if you're a if you're
Speaker 2: putting a moment, if you're an alcoholic, whether you think
Speaker 2: of functioning or not, the physical toll that will eventually
Speaker 2: be taken on your body will take you down. I
Speaker 2: think anyone who's smart does not want to. When they
Speaker 2: say smart mean you know that they act together. No
Speaker 2: one wants to become a drug addict. No one wants
Speaker 2: to become an alcoholic.
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone intends when they're young, oh I'm
Speaker 3: going to grow up and be an alcoholic. I don't
Speaker 3: want to be a junkie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so we're not making any judgment here. However,
Speaker 2: the question is, okay, for the person who is addicted
Speaker 2: to the internet, to social media, what is the risk
Speaker 2: for them? I mean, clearly they are risks, but they
Speaker 2: have more subtle risks then they probably guess can still
Speaker 2: function in terms of work. No one's going to be
Speaker 2: They're never going to be arrested and pulled over driving
Speaker 2: and the cops are going to say, look, we don't
Speaker 2: want to do a breath Eliza week, but we want
Speaker 2: to how many hours have you been on the internet
Speaker 2: the last week? But you know you've had But do
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying, I mean, how w does
Speaker 2: that lead? I know where alcoholism leads to nowhere? Drug
Speaker 2: addiction leads with the social internet addiction.
Speaker 3: Lead And you're right. And the thing about even you
Speaker 3: brought up a great point, you know, not it feels
Speaker 3: like a while ago now, but there was a real
Speaker 3: concern about people using their devices while driving and a
Speaker 3: lot of states have instituted now laws of hands free
Speaker 3: driving because people are driving around, you know, texting and
Speaker 3: looking at their devices. So you know, we saw that
Speaker 3: because again it was causing overt problems, crashes, you know,
Speaker 3: terrible things, all right. And you're also there's a point
Speaker 3: when something is so pervasive in a society, no one
Speaker 3: seems to really care. We're all complicit. I'm gonna use
Speaker 3: smoking as an example. Think about we used to when
Speaker 3: my kids here, that we used to smoke on planes.
Speaker 3: They're just a pall, they said, what do you talking about?
Speaker 3: So when we are all complicit, then it just feels
Speaker 3: like there's nothing wrong with it. And now you smoking
Speaker 3: because no one we'd light up anywhere meetings, you know
Speaker 3: where we were.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's some guys sitting next to you, you know,
Speaker 2: blowing smoke.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But I use the plane thing because that was
Speaker 3: really the ones where my kids were like, in a plane,
Speaker 3: I'm yeah, And then they had those smoking zones on
Speaker 3: the planes and my kids were like, but it's blowing
Speaker 3: through the plane. Yeah, no smoking, So until we realized
Speaker 3: and then suddenly it becomes oh, and now people who
Speaker 3: smoke are like you find them in the back of
Speaker 3: buildings and hiding and so you know, but it used
Speaker 3: to be because everyone did it, So now this is
Speaker 3: so nascent. So now when everyone's on their devices, and
Speaker 3: I don't think any of our listeners can argue with
Speaker 3: the fact you can pretty much walk in anywhere and
Speaker 3: you see everyone in what I call absent presence. We're
Speaker 3: with other people in real life dead, and we are
Speaker 3: all looking down ounted our devices, and we're so entranced
Speaker 3: and enthralled. So it just feels like everyone's doing it right.
Speaker 3: So what can be a problem. While you bring up
Speaker 3: the other point, how do you know? Well, again, it
Speaker 3: depends on what it is. There's so many different ways
Speaker 3: people engage with their devices. So the social media as
Speaker 3: I call them, are different than the gamers are different
Speaker 3: from the gamblers or the shoppers, or work or whatever
Speaker 3: it is. But you also have to look at where
Speaker 3: are you spending your time. So I'm going to give
Speaker 3: you something. This is something I came up with, and
Speaker 3: we'll see what you think. And it's a real quick
Speaker 3: kitchen test because to go through how do we know
Speaker 3: what would be the sign symptoms. Again, it's to the individual,
Speaker 3: and it also depends on what they're doing and how
Speaker 3: they're doing it. I do believe that social media is
Speaker 3: an amazing tool. As I said in the beginning awareness connection,
Speaker 3: there are populations that are more marginalized, that can't access
Speaker 3: support or resources in their area for idea of reasons,
Speaker 3: or they have some sort of disability. I love I
Speaker 3: have friends and family all over the world. I love
Speaker 3: using social media to be connected with them. I get
Speaker 3: to see what's going on with them. And I think
Speaker 3: I shared in our last talk, I went back to
Speaker 3: a family reunion in Michigan, where I was from. I
Speaker 3: knew whateverone would have been doing, their triumphs, their tragedies.
Speaker 3: I knew the kids, I knew the babies, I knew
Speaker 3: the plus ones. That felt good. So for awareness for connection, however,
Speaker 3: here's what I will say. Do you remember from school
Speaker 3: the old five w's in an H? How right? Correct?
Speaker 3: I took that and I kind of I appropriated it.
Speaker 3: Please don't cancel me appropriated it, and I came up
Speaker 3: with for devices to answer And hopefully this will quickly
Speaker 3: answer your questions and hopefully we'll have some people who
Speaker 3: have some questions as well. So here's what I suggest,
Speaker 3: very simple kitchen table, five w's and H. So you
Speaker 3: can ask yourself, why are you engaging with your device?
Speaker 3: What are you engaging with on your I'm sorry, why
Speaker 3: are you engaging on your device? What are you doing
Speaker 3: on the device? Where are you using the device? When
Speaker 3: are you engaging with the device? Who are you engaging
Speaker 3: with through the device, and how are you engaging with
Speaker 3: it or not? And if you can honestly go through
Speaker 3: all of those why, what, where, when, who? And how
Speaker 3: and you say, you know what, I don't see any problem.
Speaker 3: Everything's great. I've never been cyberbullied. I've never gone through
Speaker 3: a scrolling session on social media and come out the
Speaker 3: other side feeling worse about myself and comparing and despairing
Speaker 3: and wondering why. Guy Dan in Boston has all of
Speaker 3: this stuff, and I don't in mind if you can
Speaker 3: honestly go through those and you're not finding that you're
Speaker 3: having it at the kitchen table or at dinner tables,
Speaker 3: please with your kids. If you can get your kids
Speaker 3: at a table and you're all on your devices. So
Speaker 3: if you can honestly go through those, say no, dom
Speaker 3: no problem.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get us some calls in here. I'm I'm
Speaker 2: taking that much right to Let me go to Bill
Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania. Bill, you're on with doctor Don Grant. Go
Speaker 2: right ahead, Bill, we're talking about social media addiction. Go ahead, Billy, Bill.
Speaker 5: You knowing doctor.
Speaker 3: I'm doing all right.
Speaker 5: I'm glad Dan has you on tonight.
Speaker 4: Hey.
Speaker 5: Uh, Like I've always said, Okay, if I could drink
Speaker 5: like a normal person, I drink all the time. Listen,
Speaker 5: I feel you question. Okay, Uh, can you can you
Speaker 5: speak a little bit? We know what we know what
Speaker 5: the problem is. Okay. I just got my first iPhone.
Speaker 5: I hate it. Okay. I had a flip phone all
Speaker 5: my life and uh, but it was being by my
Speaker 5: kids over here, so I got to kind of use it.
Speaker 5: Takes good photos, but I hate the thing. Can you
Speaker 5: just talk real? Uh, quickly please about spirituality, because I
Speaker 5: think you know, all these devices are really cutting us
Speaker 5: off from any spirituality.
Speaker 3: Okay, you sound and I may be, but you'll know
Speaker 3: you sound like a friend of Bill's. Yes, me as well,
Speaker 3: So we'll leave it there, all right, I kind of
Speaker 3: just got that. Well, all right, Well, it depends because
Speaker 3: everyone has a different idea about their spirituality and it
Speaker 3: is absolutely ours to decide, right, So what I say
Speaker 3: is regarding It's what Dan said earlier. One of the
Speaker 3: things about these devices when it becomes a problem is
Speaker 3: when it disconnects us from ourself or others. So in
Speaker 3: order to kind of look at what is my personal
Speaker 3: or individual spirituality being disconnected, and that can be from
Speaker 3: you know, whatever you have as a higher power or
Speaker 3: a god, or whatever your spiritual thing is, as other
Speaker 3: individuals who help you feel spiritual connection or community. What
Speaker 3: happens is that these devices, in my opinion, can become
Speaker 3: an insurmountable barrier that also can distract us, can keep
Speaker 3: us disconnected from ourselves, and can keep us more interested
Speaker 3: in what others are doing or what is happening in
Speaker 3: the world that may or may not be true. So
Speaker 3: that disconnection and to me and you can disagree because
Speaker 3: I don't you know, I want to respect everyone's spirituality.
Speaker 3: Disconnection to me is the opposite of spirituality.
Speaker 5: Yeah, does that make sense to you?
Speaker 3: And it can be disconnected from self, from whatever your
Speaker 3: source of faith or higher power, or from your community.
Speaker 3: That is spiritual connection. These devices are designed to keep
Speaker 3: us isolated.
Speaker 5: Okay, good and thank you for that. And you know
Speaker 5: Anthony de Mello. You ever heard Anthony de Mello?
Speaker 3: I have not.
Speaker 5: He's an interesting guy. Anyways, Thanks for answering that question, and.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Bill. We'll talk soon. Okay, Okay,
Speaker 2: thanks Bill, take quick break. Here got Will and Long
Speaker 2: Island coming up on the other side. We'll get him in.
Speaker 2: Maybe you if you want to go Will, Bill, Will no,
Speaker 2: we have that's Will and Bill. You got it. Back
Speaker 2: on Nightside with my guest, doctor Don Grant, Social media addiction.
Speaker 1: Back on Nightside Now back to Dan Way live from
Speaker 1: the Window World night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: My guest is doctor Don Grant, prominent mental health expert
Speaker 2: media psychologist associated with Newport Healthcare. Let's go to Will
Speaker 2: on Long Island. Will welcome, Thanks for your patience. You're
Speaker 2: on with doctor Don Grant.
Speaker 4: Hey, doc, So yeah, I'm sober a long time now
Speaker 4: from a really low place, and I'm listening to this
Speaker 4: and I think, you know, the monkey's off my back,
Speaker 4: but the circus is always in town. I could always
Speaker 4: pick up another monkey, you know. And I just think
Speaker 4: about like all the different ways that my addiction can
Speaker 4: manifest itself, right, just not just my drug or choice
Speaker 4: or drugs or alcohol or whatever, but in so many
Speaker 4: other ways, right. So, I mean I've seen so many
Speaker 4: people over the years that you know, I either worked
Speaker 4: with or was in places with that like would get
Speaker 4: through the physical addiction of alcohol, Benzo's opiates, whatever it was.
Speaker 4: It looked like they were going to die, and then
Speaker 4: a month or two later or a year later, pick
Speaker 4: up again because the mental addiction is so strong, right,
Speaker 4: So this is like completely mental. My question was, is
Speaker 4: there enough studies out there to show the physiological aspects
Speaker 4: of it, not just the damage it does from the
Speaker 4: blue light and keeping you up, but the withdrawal or
Speaker 4: maybe even serotonin dopamine levels, neual pathways, things like that,
Speaker 4: how it maybe can affect your brain over time and
Speaker 4: create a type of withdrawal like you have from alcohol
Speaker 4: or drugs.
Speaker 3: Sure, and that's a great question, and congratulations on your recovery.
Speaker 3: I'll tell you, well, you bring up something I actually
Speaker 3: was invited and it came out earlier this year in
Speaker 3: the Handbook of Media Psychology, the Sciences and the Practices.
Speaker 3: And I'm going to be honest, I really was so
Speaker 3: busy I couldn't take on one more project. But they
Speaker 3: lured me in because of what you just asked. Because
Speaker 3: my specialization is device management and all of this, but
Speaker 3: I also another one is addiction. They invited me to
Speaker 3: write a chapter in this book exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 3: It is very geeky, I'm warning you. But what I
Speaker 3: look at is the Olympic system. I look at the
Speaker 3: addiction cycle. I look at how these devices have the
Speaker 3: same impact and effect and how it works in your brain.
Speaker 3: Because what you may know and what you know, we
Speaker 3: know people are in recovery. We have to be very
Speaker 3: vigilant about many things, but one of them is a
Speaker 3: transference of addiction. So you see someone who maybe had
Speaker 3: a substance based addiction, and then you know they're not
Speaker 3: really vigilant, they're not taking care, they're not really looking
Speaker 3: at what it was that the drug or drink did
Speaker 3: for them, and they're not working on their mental health,
Speaker 3: and suddenly they become restless, heirable, and discontent and they
Speaker 3: had to pick up in their their shopping addict or
Speaker 3: they're a gambling addict. So yes, there's there's some things
Speaker 3: out there. But of course I would be you know,
Speaker 3: a pool if I didn't say to you, if you
Speaker 3: look at the Hambook of Media Psychology and you look
Speaker 3: at my chapter everything you just said, it's scientific evidence based. Again,
Speaker 3: very nerdy, but I discuss everything you're asking and illustrate
Speaker 3: how it works.
Speaker 4: Well, it's amazing how you can, like you know, uh,
Speaker 4: qualify for one twelve step program and then find out
Speaker 4: you qualify for like so many others, you know what
Speaker 4: I mean, like.
Speaker 3: For every one of them.
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, all right, Thanks doc, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank yous care real great question, and congratulations Will and
Speaker 2: your success as well.
Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you sir.
Speaker 2: Thanks doctor Grant. This was a great hour. It's exactly
Speaker 2: what I expected. I should say, it exceeds my expectations.
Speaker 2: How can folks get in touch with you? A lot
Speaker 2: of folks I'm sure are listening toimes, say geez, I
Speaker 2: like to talk to him, But talk to me either
Speaker 2: off air or communicate with If you've got a website,
Speaker 2: you got a book that's out, tell me how we
Speaker 2: can struck.
Speaker 3: Sure, Yeah, there's you know again, they're not they're difficult.
Speaker 3: If you google dr you have to filter it dr Doctor,
Speaker 3: Dr Don Grant. You can find all sorts of things.
Speaker 3: There's also some videos of some presentations and webinars, all
Speaker 3: a lot of skills and things that I do as
Speaker 3: public service. So you can find all kinds of things.
Speaker 3: But if you really want to get in touch with me,
Speaker 3: the best way to do it would be to contact
Speaker 3: Kristin Hayes. Kristin Hayes is my person at Newport Healthcare
Speaker 3: the webst Her email is Kristen k r I S
Speaker 3: T E and dot Hayes h A y E s
Speaker 3: Kristen dot Hayes at Newport Healthcare dot com and she
Speaker 3: can put you in touch with me.
Speaker 2: Sounds great. I really do appreciate it. Again, I knew
Speaker 2: you'd be a great guest. I probably spind it.
Speaker 3: You asked great questions. This was fantastic. You know. I'll
Speaker 3: tell you Dan a lot of times I'll be with
Speaker 3: someone and I the journalist asked me these questions and
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, you are fantastic. You are you hit
Speaker 3: them all. I was like, this is gonna be great.
Speaker 3: I love this guy.
Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate it. I really do. And by the way,
Speaker 2: this hour will be posted on our podcast page, which
Speaker 2: is Nightside on demand dot Com within a couple of hours,
Speaker 2: and you folks are more than welcome to pull it
Speaker 2: down tomorrow put it up on your website. I thought
Speaker 2: you did great and.
Speaker 3: Wether it twitch is, by the way, a great use
Speaker 3: of devices. See there's healthy device management resources.
Speaker 2: Well I'm doing that because I got to tell you,
Speaker 2: when I get out of the business, at some point,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna throw all the devices away and I'm gonna
Speaker 2: probably just climb into a into a cave and read books.
Speaker 2: Doctor don Grant, thank you so much. We'll talk again, Okay,
Speaker 2: take care. Thank you very much. But a great, great guest.
Speaker 2: I really do appreciate his time, and I hope all
Speaker 2: of you have appreciated it as well. I will remind
Speaker 2: you that tomorrow we have big day. Check out Nightside
Speaker 2: on demand dot com. We got some great stuff up there.
Speaker 2: The last day of the month. We'll have a great
Speaker 2: show tomorrow night. I promise we're going to talk tomorrow night,
Speaker 2: amongst other things about we have a relationship specialist coming on,
Speaker 2: so we got a lot going on, and of course
Speaker 2: we'll talk politics as all will, dogs, all cats, all
Speaker 2: pets go to heaven. That's my pal Charlie Rays, who
Speaker 2: passed fifteen years ago in February. That's all your pets
Speaker 2: are her past. They loved you and you love them.
Speaker 2: I do believe you'll see them begin see get tomorrow night,
Speaker 2: Rob Brooks, thank you very much, Marita as well. Have
Speaker 2: a great Friday over when stay dry Sea Tomorrow night