Speaker 1: Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. These guys
Speaker 1: are your favor It's so like say subscribe and rade it.
Speaker 2: Live Stock and me.
Speaker 1: Greatest gone Yesterday, listening watching limb always keep its watching.
Speaker 2: And now your hosts Cliff Berrickman and James Bubo Fay.
Speaker 3: Hey, everybody, this is Cliff, and you are listening to Beyond,
Speaker 3: Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and usually Bobo and always
Speaker 3: Matt Pruitt. So and you can tell by my my
Speaker 3: slightly sarcastic introduction there that Bobo is not with us today.
Speaker 3: We don't know where he is. We don't have a reason,
Speaker 3: we don't know anything. We've been trying to get Ahold
Speaker 3: of It form about two days now and he won't
Speaker 3: get back to us about scheduling or he hasn't. It's
Speaker 3: not like he's refusing, but he might be refusing. You
Speaker 3: just don't know he's We have not heard back from
Speaker 3: Bobo about when he can record. But fact is it's
Speaker 3: a job and we have a responsibility. So we're going
Speaker 3: to go ahead and record without him. So there you go. So,
Speaker 3: but you know what, if Bobo's not here, that means
Speaker 3: we have a robo Bobo behind the curtain somewhere are
Speaker 3: you there? Robo? Bobo? All right?
Speaker 2: Sweet?
Speaker 3: So it's just like Bobo's here. So yeah, it's going
Speaker 3: to be Matt Prue and I just kind of riffing
Speaker 3: on some topics. So we have a couple of cool
Speaker 3: things to talk about today and maybe and some of
Speaker 3: the stuff it comes from you, the listeners as well,
Speaker 3: because we listen to you. We want you to be
Speaker 3: part of the show. We couldn't be doing We wouldn't
Speaker 3: be doing the show with that s you'd be weird.
Speaker 3: But I guess that's what regular conversations are, a show
Speaker 3: without an audience. So we're going to try to attack
Speaker 3: a couple of those things today, and you know, you
Speaker 3: never know, because Bobo is an unpredictable kind of guy.
Speaker 3: He just might show up. He did last week. This
Speaker 3: exact same thing happened last week, except that he agreed
Speaker 3: to be on the podcast last week and just kind
Speaker 3: of forgot what day it was. You may you may
Speaker 3: have remembered that just a week ago. But today we
Speaker 3: haven't heard from Bobo at all.
Speaker 2: Classic classic.
Speaker 3: Matt, how are you doing?
Speaker 2: I'm good? It is classic Bobo. In fact, I titled
Speaker 2: this session where four arct al bobio hoping that when
Speaker 2: he logged in he would answer that question for us.
Speaker 2: So we'll see. I'm kind of excited. It's like Schrodinger's bobes,
Speaker 2: like will he or won't he? You know, Yeah, he's
Speaker 2: inside the box and outside the box. Inside the box,
Speaker 2: of course it's foe bobo robo bobo. We did get
Speaker 2: some kind feedback from our good man Wes Germer this
Speaker 2: morning that it's funny because I just mentioned that a
Speaker 2: member of ours had said something like, oh, I didn't
Speaker 2: realize how much I needed a robo bobo in my life.
Speaker 2: And Wes's first words in the text to you and
Speaker 2: I this morning were I need a robo bobo in
Speaker 2: my life.
Speaker 3: Well, we can lend out a row bobobo occasionally to
Speaker 3: various people. I don't see why not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there could be a cottage industry for other podcasters,
Speaker 2: you know, like, hey, if you want, you know, dialo bobes,
Speaker 2: we got you covered dialo bobs.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because it's well, it could be like a
Speaker 3: service he provides. Should I call him bo bites instead
Speaker 3: of sound bites? Maybe we should put bo bites in
Speaker 3: the merch listing. You know, have a little online bo
Speaker 3: Byites merch shop, so you can just buy a belch
Speaker 3: for like, you know, ninety nine cents. Oh yeah, would
Speaker 3: you like Bobo belching as your ring tone? Let us know.
Speaker 2: Another listener, Oh, I should probably find this real quick
Speaker 2: so I can give credit where credit is due, because
Speaker 2: it would be a great shout out. It's a great idea.
Speaker 2: So one second here. Oh it was our great listener
Speaker 2: who's also a member submitted a lot of good questions
Speaker 2: over the years. Woodbooger James suggested that we consider manufacturing
Speaker 2: for retail a talking Bobo action figure. Remember the action
Speaker 2: figures back in the day that would make sounds when
Speaker 2: you press the button. We should incorporate Robo Boo into
Speaker 2: a Bobo action figure, which I think would be amazing.
Speaker 3: You know at the pretty high tech stuff for us
Speaker 3: many maybe something more like a Bobo Magic eight ball
Speaker 3: or something like that. You know, asking a question, you
Speaker 3: turn it over.
Speaker 2: He goes yep, and speaking of listeners, I do. I
Speaker 2: did want to give a shout out to our good
Speaker 2: listener Nigel Williams, who he submitted questions in the past.
Speaker 2: We did a voicemail from him recently, and I had
Speaker 2: mentioned that he had authored a book and I had
Speaker 2: weighed in a little bit on some of the Sasquatch
Speaker 2: oriented information there. And that book is out now. So
Speaker 2: it's a book for young readers, sort of like middle
Speaker 2: school grade readers maybe, like ages nine to thirteen, and
Speaker 2: it's called Alfie and the Bigfoot of Bluff Creek. It's
Speaker 2: a great young adult book. It's got a lot of
Speaker 2: good Sasquatch information. The Sasquatch is incorporated into the story
Speaker 2: and it's treated sympathetically and scientifically. And I'll have the
Speaker 2: link to the Amazon listing there in the show notes.
Speaker 2: So I wanted to give a shout out to Nigel
Speaker 2: and Nigel congratulations on getting the book published. Rad Rad.
Speaker 3: You know, speaking of books, I came into the museum
Speaker 3: yesterday named Tom Buker. He's been writing me a little
Speaker 3: bit off and on through the years or whatever, and
Speaker 3: he actually gave me a book a little while ago
Speaker 3: that he wanted to incorporate a little just a little
Speaker 3: sasquatch snippet or something in there, and it turned out
Speaker 3: to be a much larger snippet than he anticipated. A
Speaker 3: real super nice guy. So I want to give a
Speaker 3: little plug to his book in case anybody is interested
Speaker 3: in some cool fiction or whatever. It's basically about a
Speaker 3: US army like a marshal, basically trying to track down
Speaker 3: a killer looking in the wilderness of Idaho. And cause
Speaker 3: it was a fictional thing, but there's a there's a
Speaker 3: sasquatch section in there. And this guy's name is Thomas Buker,
Speaker 3: I know him's Tom. He came in the museum yes ohough.
Speaker 3: The name of the book, by the way, is Dust
Speaker 3: and Duty. I don't know if it's available on Amazon
Speaker 3: or may maybe that tickles somebody's fancy, but it looks
Speaker 3: like a pretty slick book man, and he gave me
Speaker 3: a copy of it, so whatever that's worth, whatever that's worth,
Speaker 3: I want to give Tom a heads up and like
Speaker 3: a shout out there because he was the reason he
Speaker 3: came into the shop yesterday. Is that this guy is
Speaker 3: a pretty rabbit hunter. You know. He's out there all
Speaker 3: the time, you know, because some tags are all year long,
Speaker 3: like mountain lions, I think, and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 3: And he's always scouting for good elk areas and whatever else.
Speaker 3: And he's got a spot not far from where he
Speaker 3: lives where a few years ago he started running across
Speaker 3: sign that didn't make sense to him, you know, when
Speaker 3: he's out there tracking and stuff, and long story short,
Speaker 3: over the years, he has come to the realization that
Speaker 3: sasquatches are in fact real animals, and there's apparently at
Speaker 3: least one in the area where he goes, because every
Speaker 3: once in a while he finds some sign. So he
Speaker 3: dropped by yesterday and he donated two casts to the museum,
Speaker 3: and he's out all the time, and now he's seen
Speaker 3: a line of sasquatch tracks that were pretty plain his
Speaker 3: day before, and he's finding these other things and now
Speaker 3: he's carrying plaster around. So it sounds like ANYBC has
Speaker 3: a really good contact out in the Idaho area who
Speaker 3: is keeping his eyes on the ground for us out there.
Speaker 3: So I look forward to hearing from Tom in the future.
Speaker 3: So Tom, if you're listening, hats off to you, buddy.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for the donation, And of course, if
Speaker 3: anybody's interested in some cool looking fiction. I'm just judging
Speaker 3: a book by its cover here, but it's a pretty
Speaker 3: interesting cover here. It looks rat Thomas Buker has written
Speaker 3: Dust and Duty. Maybe you guys could check it out
Speaker 3: and you know, give him some love. So there you go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure it's available online. I'll find the link
Speaker 2: and I'll put that in the show notes too. I'm
Speaker 2: sure there's an online place to click through and buy it.
Speaker 2: So we'll make sure Tom gets well represented in the
Speaker 2: episode description. Fantastic got back from Seattle yesterday. Basically I
Speaker 2: did a gig out there with George Norury. Remember George Norris,
Speaker 2: the general host of that Coast to Coast AM show
Speaker 2: started out I think as the Art Bell Show, and
Speaker 2: now George norriy kind of runs most of that stuff.
Speaker 2: And I don't know if they still have guest hosts
Speaker 2: or not. I know a woman named Connie Willis did
Speaker 2: that for a second. But I've been on the George
Speaker 2: norri Show a few times. The Coast to Coast AM.
Speaker 2: So they did a live event up in Seattle and
Speaker 2: Everett actually was in Seattle's Everett, just north of Seattle,
Speaker 2: at a place called the Historic Everett Theater, and that
Speaker 2: was an interesting show. They had some dude that was
Speaker 2: into Atlantis, you know Atlantis, you know, like the Fallen City,
Speaker 2: you know, like the new Manure of Earth.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was on. He did a talk I guess,
Speaker 3: you know, not a talk. He did an interview with
Speaker 3: George I guess. And he shows some maps.
Speaker 2: I guess.
Speaker 3: This guy's deal is that he thinks it's in the
Speaker 3: South Pacific somewhere. Interesting take, especially since he was written
Speaker 3: about in Greek literature. Seems like that's a long ways away.
Speaker 3: But I don't know, I don't I'm sure he's written
Speaker 3: a book. I can't remember the guy's name.
Speaker 2: There.
Speaker 3: There's another guy named Matthew. That is his titles an
Speaker 3: AI cosmologist. He seemed to be more like an AI
Speaker 3: philosopher to me. I think that you can tie in
Speaker 3: cosmology or whatever to whatever you want, but he seemed
Speaker 3: to be more of a philosopher because I think the
Speaker 3: big takeaway from that guy that in his interview with
Speaker 3: George Nori was, you know, AI wouild will kind of
Speaker 3: show us what it means to be human once the
Speaker 3: humanity of so much as strip away. And he was
Speaker 3: advocating for like a higher consciousness sort of thing with
Speaker 3: in tangent with AI helpers or something. And it's like,
Speaker 3: I don't know, whatever, whatever, it's not my gig man,
Speaker 3: I'm too busy looking for Bigfoot. And then I of
Speaker 3: course talked to George for about twenty minutes on stage
Speaker 3: or something like that. I brought a few items for
Speaker 3: show and tell, like the butt print. Everybody loves the
Speaker 3: butt print, and luckily George asked, I said, what do
Speaker 3: you have in the box? It's not Bigfoot pooh is
Speaker 3: it or something like that. I oh, next, best thing,
Speaker 3: it's like pre Bigfoot Pooh, it's the butt you know.
Speaker 3: So yeah, so I brought the butt cast out, which
Speaker 3: everybody loves, of course, and a few footprints and that
Speaker 3: kind of thing. I had a good conversation with George.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't George is in a Sasquatch Specialists
Speaker 3: or anything like that, so his questions are pretty pretty
Speaker 3: you know, basic in a lot of ways. And then
Speaker 3: I of course took questions from the audience, and one
Speaker 3: of our members came up and did a little in
Speaker 3: the microphone as we started, so I knew, you know,
Speaker 3: I knew what was up. He gave us the high sign,
Speaker 3: So thank you very much to that member. I really
Speaker 3: really appreciate it. And took a lot of other questions,
Speaker 3: and of course, you know me, I'm out there, you know,
Speaker 3: buwling the china shop, you know, knocking things over, saying
Speaker 3: that these things are just perfectly normal mammals. And there
Speaker 3: are a lot of people coming up, and I remember
Speaker 3: one guy asked me what he thought would be a
Speaker 3: challenging question, saying like, I'm a portal guy, So where
Speaker 3: do they go? You know, Like like it's like, well,
Speaker 3: that's that's not going to stump me, Like, what do
Speaker 3: you mean where do they go? It's like the answer
Speaker 3: isn't like portals. The answer is they just go off
Speaker 3: in the woods because you don't follow them. Yeah, they
Speaker 3: go everywhere that humans aren't, which is like ninety nine
Speaker 3: point nine percent of the forest at any given moment,
Speaker 3: you know, because there are not humans everywhere, and human
Speaker 3: eyes don't see everywhere. So it's really not that hard
Speaker 3: an equation. Yeah, yeah, man, I had one. I had something.
Speaker 3: I don't know what it was, a bear of bigfoot
Speaker 3: and elk, something close to me. This is past week.
Speaker 3: And I never saw what it was. I still don't
Speaker 3: know what it was. And I wasn't that far away,
Speaker 3: like one hundred yards away, one hundred and fifty yards
Speaker 3: away at the most. Yeah, And I have no I
Speaker 3: ever saw it, tried to see it, never saw it
Speaker 3: at all, and don't know what it was. So they
Speaker 3: don't have to go anywhere in particular, and they especially
Speaker 3: don't have to go through a portal. So there's that.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was a good time, good gig, a
Speaker 3: lot of fun. I didn't know this, but between if
Speaker 3: you go to one of these live events, George Nori,
Speaker 3: in between all the interviews, comes out and does a
Speaker 3: love ballad. I had no idea that he sings and
Speaker 3: whatever else. So it was just a fun show. And
Speaker 3: of course all the George Norri listeners came out of
Speaker 3: the woodwork and came and really enjoyed the show. And
Speaker 3: a lot of really eccentric, wonderful weirdos out there at
Speaker 3: a really good time. I was in basically backstage at
Speaker 3: the Muppet Show, hanging out with a bunch of weirdos.
Speaker 3: It was great, very much in my element. I really
Speaker 3: enjoyed it. A lot of great people, a lot of
Speaker 3: great conversations.
Speaker 2: I would expect nothing less from the Northwest. I mean
Speaker 2: I only lived there for three years, but they were
Speaker 2: very formative years. I mean I always say, like born
Speaker 2: and raised in southern Appalachia but forged in the flames
Speaker 2: of the Pacific Northwest to and there's definitely a Pacific
Speaker 2: Northwestern type of character, you know, like that that you
Speaker 2: see parody in the same way that I would say
Speaker 2: there's a Southerner type of character that I see portrayed
Speaker 2: on like sketch comedy shows or in movies or that's
Speaker 2: sort of like satirized. It's like, yeah, I get it,
Speaker 2: I know people like that. But then when you go
Speaker 2: to other parts of the country and you see people
Speaker 2: there that are like the living examples of the parodies, Like,
Speaker 2: there's definitely a Pacific Northwestern type of weirdo, you know.
Speaker 2: And of course you're doing an esoteric, slash, paranormal or
Speaker 2: fringe kind of event, you know, strange subjects outside of
Speaker 2: the box, of course, you're going to get a gathering
Speaker 2: of those. So that's amazing.
Speaker 3: It was pretty fun.
Speaker 1: It was.
Speaker 3: It was definitely a fun list. It's like a whole
Speaker 3: theater full of markmer cells, you know, just like good
Speaker 3: natured fun people who are into really weird things and
Speaker 3: hold these odd beliefs and such, and you know, and
Speaker 3: I'm one of them too. I get it. I totally
Speaker 3: get it. I'm not slamming anybody man, because from the
Speaker 3: outside looking in, I'm a freak too. Like you think
Speaker 3: sasquatches are real animals, what's wrong with you? You know?
Speaker 3: I get it, I totally get it. We all are
Speaker 3: those people. But yeah, it's just just fun. And you
Speaker 3: know what's really refreshing for me is because I'm going
Speaker 3: to these events and after having these conversations and after
Speaker 3: watching the previous interviews and hanging out with the speakers
Speaker 3: backstage and and all that sort of stuff, it really
Speaker 3: drives home this this unusual idea for me because it's
Speaker 3: not reinforced very often, this idea, it really drives home
Speaker 3: of how normal I am. I'm not used to being
Speaker 3: the normal guy in the room at all. It's weird
Speaker 3: when I go because of my family, I'm the weirdest person.
Speaker 3: I'm the weirdest person my family's made, you know, and
Speaker 3: most of my most of my non bigfoot friends think
Speaker 3: I'm freak. My neighbors didn't know what to do with me.
Speaker 3: That kind of stuff. I'm not used to being the
Speaker 3: most normal guy in the room, but I wasn't. I
Speaker 3: wasn't the most normal guy in the entire theater as
Speaker 3: far as I could fell. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot
Speaker 3: and Yawn with Cliff and Bobo. We'll be right back
Speaker 3: after these messages. You know, Bobes, squatching season is in
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Speaker 2: restrictions and important safety information. That is one of the
Speaker 2: strangest things about this particular subject, and it comes up
Speaker 2: so often in conversations with people, and I really think
Speaker 2: it's born of this idea of like the known versus
Speaker 2: the unknown, and that we make all these allowances for
Speaker 2: the unknown. Like if you take the Big three, you know,
Speaker 2: non human intelligence slash extraterrestrial slash UFOs whatever that phenomenon,
Speaker 2: and then the ghost spirit apparitional phenomenon, and then something
Speaker 2: like the sasquatch phenomenon, it's like, well, non human intelligence
Speaker 2: UFOs space is vast, it's nearly infinite, so to speak,
Speaker 2: or at least as far as we can tell or
Speaker 2: to our perceptions, and so of course there's all kinds
Speaker 2: of things out there that we can't be expected to
Speaker 2: know about yet, and so we make allowances that, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: things could come and go, and they'd be hundreds of
Speaker 2: thousands or millions or billions of years more advanced than us.
Speaker 2: And people have no problem assuming that there are entities
Speaker 2: out there that might come, visit or intervene. And then
Speaker 2: the apparitional world like, well, of course there's some degree
Speaker 2: of reality that we don't get understand or that we
Speaker 2: can't perceive, and there's something about consciousness that doesn't seem
Speaker 2: to be time or space bound, and so of course
Speaker 2: consciousness survives, and the dead come to us or whatever
Speaker 2: the case may be. You know, these really sort of wild, unverifiable,
Speaker 2: unfalsifiable things. But then the idea that you know, we
Speaker 2: know apes exist and there might be one additional ape
Speaker 2: on one additional continent is somehow the most taboo, fringe
Speaker 2: frowned upon, vociferously dismissed, emotionally rejected. You know, people have
Speaker 2: no problem talking about UFOs or ghosts, but you bring
Speaker 2: up the sasquatch thing, and they're like, oh, you couldn't
Speaker 2: possibly believe that, you know, there's a lot of scorn,
Speaker 2: which is so strange. Like in this day and age,
Speaker 2: it is much easier for an educated person to claim
Speaker 2: either interest in or contact with non human intelligence or
Speaker 2: an apparition that it is for a person like that
Speaker 2: to come out and say, hey, I think I saw
Speaker 2: an animal that science hasn't recognized yet. Like that's the
Speaker 2: most taboo of all of those claims, which is bizarre
Speaker 2: because nothing about our propositions require any new science or
Speaker 2: really any new discoveries.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I said it from the stage that the
Speaker 3: paranormal model of sasquatches is not it's not congruent, you know.
Speaker 3: I said, if you ask ten different paranormal advocates about Bigfoot,
Speaker 3: they're going to give you at least thirteen different answers,
Speaker 3: you know, And it was true, true, true. At this
Speaker 3: gig as well, I had people saying that they went
Speaker 3: through portholes. One person said he went to some sort
Speaker 3: of retreats where the bigfoots went around in the dark,
Speaker 3: touching them or something like that. I had another person
Speaker 3: telling me that they were UFO related or some other
Speaker 3: biblical people saying that nepheline was involved somehow and interbreeding
Speaker 3: with angel and it's like, okay, well proof is in
Speaker 3: that pudding there, right, So yeah, just again a lot
Speaker 3: of clashing views in the paranormal world, but they can
Speaker 3: at least all unite against the one that actually makes
Speaker 3: sense and is internally congruent.
Speaker 2: It's a bizarre thing, and that's just a consequence of
Speaker 2: I think a lot of the modern state of not
Speaker 2: just social media, but media in general, and that a
Speaker 2: lot of the barriers have been kicked out and so
Speaker 2: everyone has a voice in a platform, which is really
Speaker 2: good in a lot of ways, but it also has costs.
Speaker 2: You know, every benefit comes with costs, and every pro
Speaker 2: with cons And the more that I see the modern
Speaker 2: landscape of sasquatchry, it's like the creature, let's say, or
Speaker 2: at least the phenomenon that's described by modern sasquatchy bears
Speaker 2: like zero resemblance to the creature that's described by history.
Speaker 2: Evidence and eyewitnesses like those are two very very different things,
Speaker 2: not just the trace evidence and physical evidence, but the
Speaker 2: preponderance of eyewitnesses that you can interview in person, you know,
Speaker 2: let's take away the anonymous YouTubers, the anonymous podcast guests,
Speaker 2: the YouTube channels or podcasts that read, you know, quote
Speaker 2: unquote read emails that were submitted by quote unquote witnesses
Speaker 2: that don't read like anything one would write. But you know,
Speaker 2: like the people that you talked to in person, or
Speaker 2: that I've talked to in person, or that most devoted
Speaker 2: Sasquatch researchers have talked to in person. Like what they're
Speaker 2: describing bears no resemblance to what the Internet is promoting.
Speaker 2: And unfortunately, now most people do all of their research
Speaker 2: on the Internet, and so the phenomenon that they're researching
Speaker 2: isn't even the Sasquatch phenomenon. It's this new weird hybrid,
Speaker 2: like you said, like amalgam of every strange thing under
Speaker 2: a single umbrella that they could shoehorn into the sasquatch,
Speaker 2: you know. And I guess every once in a while
Speaker 2: you encounter that in person at an event like that,
Speaker 2: which which makes sense again. Coast to Coast has always
Speaker 2: been a big catch all for the strange and the weird.
Speaker 2: It was a wildly entertaining program. I remember hearing it
Speaker 2: many times in the nineties and early two thousands. I
Speaker 2: think one of the first interviews I ever heard you
Speaker 2: on was that two thousand and seven interview that you
Speaker 2: and Moneymaker did. But yeah, I mean coast to coast.
Speaker 2: I would imagine that attracts a certain kind of crowd,
Speaker 2: so to speak.
Speaker 3: And I love it. You know, it sounds like I'm
Speaker 3: dissing them or whatever, or it may sound like that,
Speaker 3: especially if you're touchy about that kind of thing, But
Speaker 3: I am not. I am not. I love freaks and
Speaker 3: weirdos and people who think way outside the box, you know,
Speaker 3: as long as they're not you know, mentally ill and
Speaker 3: aggressive or something like that. I just love weird ideas.
Speaker 3: And I don't have to accept ideas. You know, I
Speaker 3: can hold an idea in my head and not think
Speaker 3: it's real. I think that's great.
Speaker 2: I love.
Speaker 3: That's why I love Tom Powell, you know, Tom Powell.
Speaker 3: I considered it. Actually his name was brought up. A
Speaker 3: woman came up and mentioned Melbourn, Ketchum and Tom Powell
Speaker 3: and somebody else. I forget who, you know, kind of
Speaker 3: challenging my idea that these are animals as opposed to
Speaker 3: whatever these other folks think they are. But yeah, say
Speaker 3: what about there or whatever I say. Well, Tom Powell
Speaker 3: is a close personal friend who's been at my home
Speaker 3: many many times, and I've been at his home many
Speaker 3: many times. I love the guy, and I just don't
Speaker 3: agree with him at all. But the great thing about
Speaker 3: Tom is that he's very rare, in my opinion, amongst
Speaker 3: the paranormal folks, and that he doesn't take it personally,
Speaker 3: you know. And that's something I struggle with too, because
Speaker 3: I do take it a little bit too personally sometimes
Speaker 3: and because I'm so close to the subject and it
Speaker 3: means so much to me, so I kind of have
Speaker 3: to remember to keep it light hearted. But Tom, in particular,
Speaker 3: like the best quote ever from Tom as far as encouragement,
Speaker 3: and you know, and Henry Franzoni, by the way, who's
Speaker 3: also put on a pedestal put on a trading card
Speaker 3: by the paranormal people, said the same thing to me basically,
Speaker 3: and maybe not in these exact worders, but the Tom
Speaker 3: Powell quote is, Ah, Cliff, I'm glad you're doing the
Speaker 3: ape thing. That means I don't have to, you know,
Speaker 3: and that's great, that's great. And Framzoni said the exact
Speaker 3: same thing to me Yeah, he was thrilled that what
Speaker 3: I'm up to and the and the finds that I'm
Speaker 3: getting and all that sort of stuff. And I would
Speaker 3: share with him very openly when he would come to
Speaker 3: the museum and hang out, and he would love to
Speaker 3: see what I'm getting at. Because both those guys started
Speaker 3: out as flesh and blood, both those guys. But I
Speaker 3: think I think that they either found. In Tom's case,
Speaker 3: I know that he found he encounters some stuff that
Speaker 3: couldn't be reconciled, and so he started going parent normal
Speaker 3: and basically started getting the results that he was looking for,
Speaker 3: you know, things that I think a lot of it
Speaker 3: for both those guys, it was just more fun to
Speaker 3: go do the other weird stuff, you know. I think
Speaker 3: that's what's behind a lot of that. It's just more
Speaker 3: fun and it's fun to get weird results you can't
Speaker 3: explain and then try to explain them. And yeah, that
Speaker 3: kind of thing, because both those guys are brilliant. They're
Speaker 3: super super smart and love to theorize about stuff and
Speaker 3: just see like, hey does this pan out? Okay, Well
Speaker 3: that's some pretty shaky evidence at best, but it does
Speaker 3: support it, you know, Like, and I think that either
Speaker 3: of those guys. And I know Tom. I've seen Tom
Speaker 3: speak several times and he says this. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's not the best evidence, but that's the kind of
Speaker 3: stuff you get when you're looking into paranormal stuff, the
Speaker 3: fact that they just do it because they love it
Speaker 3: and that's where they ended up. I see nothing wrong
Speaker 3: with that. But yeah, Cliff, I'm glad you're doing the
Speaker 3: ape stuff so I don't have to That sums it
Speaker 3: up because I feel the same way about Tom. Yeah,
Speaker 3: good man, I'm glad you're having fun with it because
Speaker 3: I think that stuff's ridiculous and I don't that would
Speaker 3: that means I don't have to look into it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The frustrating thing about a lot of those debates
Speaker 2: because I agree with you about Tom and Franzoni. In fact,
Speaker 2: I only met Henry once, but I was just pulling
Speaker 2: up the message he sent me afterwards. I gave a
Speaker 2: presentation about origins and ancestral candidates and what I thought
Speaker 2: were the most likely candidates and why, and he sent
Speaker 2: me a nice message and said, I attended your presentation today.
Speaker 2: I thought it was a wonderful likelihood analysis, sorting through
Speaker 2: the plausible explanations to find the most plausible one we
Speaker 2: should talk And so I was like, oh, thank you
Speaker 2: very much. You know, because I met him, I didn't
Speaker 2: expect him to sit in the presentation, but I would
Speaker 2: have guessed like, oh, he's not going to agree with
Speaker 2: me or like this very much. But he was very
Speaker 2: kind and that was a thoughtful thing to send. And
Speaker 2: so yeah, I mean there's a lot of people who
Speaker 2: have strong beliefs who don't necessarily use that as a
Speaker 2: prerequisite for any social interaction, where it's like, well, you
Speaker 2: have to agree with me wholesale or else we can't
Speaker 2: be friendly or even have a conversation or a dialogue.
Speaker 2: But you know, Henry was very well researched, as is Tom.
Speaker 2: The frustration that I have with a lot of people,
Speaker 2: and it's not just in the sasquatch phenomenon, it's many
Speaker 2: of the subjects I'm passionate about. Is I encounter people
Speaker 2: very often who have done very very little research, but
Speaker 2: they have like a preconception or a strong commitment that
Speaker 2: drives there again their social interactions and the way they
Speaker 2: treat people. And so I'll try to talk to them
Speaker 2: to learn about like where are you coming from and
Speaker 2: you know, what is it that led you to those conclusions?
Speaker 2: And so you see very often that they just haven't
Speaker 2: seen any of the information that you've seen, or contended
Speaker 2: with any of the data that you've contended with. And
Speaker 2: I try to tell them like, look, we can't have
Speaker 2: you know, you think you're having a debate, but we
Speaker 2: can't have a debate unless we've both seen the exact
Speaker 2: same information and then arrived at two different conclusions. Like
Speaker 2: in lieu of that we're debating you know, the quality
Speaker 2: of a movie that only one of us has seen,
Speaker 2: or the contents of a book that only one of
Speaker 2: us has read. Like that's that's not a debate. It's
Speaker 2: not very helpful or useful. And you know, it's never
Speaker 2: easy to navigate those things. So I always appreciate someone
Speaker 2: who's able to say like, oh, I don't care if
Speaker 2: you agree with me, just here's what I think. Okay, great,
Speaker 2: because I don't care if you agree with me. You know,
Speaker 2: we can still be friendly and have a good time
Speaker 2: without having to you know, battle over bringing one to
Speaker 2: the other side.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know Tom Powell in particular, and again
Speaker 3: I'll harp on him because I'm closest to him if
Speaker 3: I think of all the paranormal people, and I love
Speaker 3: him so much, and I just consider him such a dear,
Speaker 3: close friend. I think at the root of much of
Speaker 3: what Tom has maybe experience, but certainly what he has
Speaker 3: shared with me is a is a wonderful sense of humor.
Speaker 3: Right Like, let's see, oh, okay, the Chehalis project. You
Speaker 3: know that he details pretty heavily in his book The Locals,
Speaker 3: and then goes on and tells him behind the scenes
Speaker 3: stuff in his other book, Edges of Science. I think
Speaker 3: it's called Edge Edge or of Science, either one. You'll
Speaker 3: find it, you know, I can't remember. But anyway, he
Speaker 3: so he goes out there in like the year two
Speaker 3: thousand and he's out there at this habituator's place or
Speaker 3: long term witnesses place, and he's doing It's like, well,
Speaker 3: they supposedly knock on tree. I'm going to try that.
Speaker 3: Because that's how long this was, Like it wasn't widely
Speaker 3: known that sasquatches knock when when this with a situation
Speaker 3: is going out up in Chahli's and he's up there
Speaker 3: and he's knocking on trees and trying to do what
Speaker 3: he can and he's in Jalis is like a two
Speaker 3: or three hour drive for him. Probably I'm going to
Speaker 3: say three hours, because it was a long ways up there.
Speaker 3: And so he's up there knocking and doing all this stuff,
Speaker 3: and he gets eventually gives up, and I think he
Speaker 3: climbs in his car at like midnight or one or
Speaker 3: so in the morning, and I think it's one in
Speaker 3: the morning. And again this is all detailed in his book.
Speaker 3: Fact check me, please, but this is approximately right. He
Speaker 3: drives all the way home, and of course Tom lives
Speaker 3: in rural Clacamus County. He lives out in the woods
Speaker 3: as well. So he drives all the way to his
Speaker 3: house and he gets out of his car and he's
Speaker 3: going up the steps on his rural property and as
Speaker 3: he's one at the steps, there's a there's a wood
Speaker 3: knock from the back of his property. And he goes, oh,
Speaker 3: and he starts basically starts laughing to himself, going like,
Speaker 3: I spent how many hours in the rain knocking and
Speaker 3: I come home and there's a knock on my property,
Speaker 3: you know. And there's a certain humor in that that
Speaker 3: Tom revels in, of course, because he's a wonderful speaker,
Speaker 3: and of course he's a great speaker. He taught like
Speaker 3: middle school science, so of course he's a great speaker
Speaker 3: for anybody in the audience. But the fact that he
Speaker 3: brings that up and just laughs about it, and to me,
Speaker 3: that's just the cosmic giggle, you know, And maybe people
Speaker 3: don't know what the cosmic giggle is, but it's that
Speaker 3: idea that the universe has a fun sense of humor,
Speaker 3: or the coincidence has happened in a sort of way
Speaker 3: like that or whatever. You know, look it up, cosmic giggle.
Speaker 3: It's a thing that I think is a very very
Speaker 3: amusing But to me, it's a cosmic giggle. But for
Speaker 3: Tom Powell, that was the Sasquatches playing a trick on him,
Speaker 3: you know, like communicating through what he calls the coconut Telegraph,
Speaker 3: which I believe is a tip of the hat to
Speaker 3: Jimmy Buffett, but I could be wrong about that. So yeah,
Speaker 3: and that's what I love most about Tom is that,
Speaker 3: like his sense of humor guides him in many many
Speaker 3: cases to these these proclamations and thoughts and of course,
Speaker 3: man his new book. I know we've had him on
Speaker 3: the podcast a few times, but I think he brings
Speaker 3: up the word sasquatched once or twice in the whole thing.
Speaker 3: The rest of it's about the pyramids and the moon
Speaker 3: and just crazy stuff, like I said, as a tour
Speaker 3: de fource of the entire series of In Search of
Speaker 3: in one book. So it's pretty nuts, man. It's awesome.
Speaker 3: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
Speaker 3: Will be right back after these messages, you know, And you.
Speaker 2: You brought up a good point earlier about the fact
Speaker 2: that like he doesn't take things personally, and that's such
Speaker 2: an important thing to keep in mind. And I'd never
Speaker 2: understood that element of a lot of the alternative contril
Speaker 2: sasquat proponent, you know, i e. The WU crowd, who
Speaker 2: can be really emotionally hot and very vocal, confrontational, almost
Speaker 2: like battlesome in a way about their views where it's like, well,
Speaker 2: why do you care what I think? Really? I mean,
Speaker 2: does it matter that I don't agree with you? Or like,
Speaker 2: what would it change if I did agree with you?
Speaker 2: Is because I don't really care if you agree with me.
Speaker 2: And that's why I love an outlet like this podcast,
Speaker 2: is that I kind of see a podcast or a
Speaker 2: YouTube channel or my book or whatever. It's like a storefront.
Speaker 2: You know, there's a sign above the store that tells
Speaker 2: you what it is. If you're interested, you are free
Speaker 2: to walk in. If you don't like what you see,
Speaker 2: you're free to leave. You don't have to stay. We're
Speaker 2: not going to lock you in and shut the doors
Speaker 2: and make you buy something that you're not interested in.
Speaker 2: So I really never understood that element of like people
Speaker 2: walking in and then being angry, complaining, wanting to fight
Speaker 2: about what's inside the proverbial store, when it's like, well, hey,
Speaker 2: you could have just kept walking. You're not obligated to
Speaker 2: listen or agree, and if you disagree, that's fine. I'm
Speaker 2: not obligated to listen to or agree with you. And
Speaker 2: I do see that, unfortunately, more from that particular faction
Speaker 2: of Sasquatchry than I do from anywhere else. That's where
Speaker 2: a lot of the like insults and ad hominems and
Speaker 2: anger and vitriol comes from, which is really unfortunate. So again,
Speaker 2: hats off to Tom for having the right kind of
Speaker 2: attitude about like, hey, I don't care if you agree
Speaker 2: with me or not. You know, I know some of
Speaker 2: this stuff is kind of weird, but hey, you know,
Speaker 2: and I love that about him. I respect Tom like
Speaker 2: I have no problem with any of his views just
Speaker 2: because I don't hold them, you know. So we could
Speaker 2: all learn a lesson to be more like Tom Powell
Speaker 2: in that regard, for sure.
Speaker 3: Oh I think, yeah, the world to be a much
Speaker 3: better place if we're all just a little bit more
Speaker 3: like Tom Powell.
Speaker 2: I mean, I wouldn't. I would not go attend an
Speaker 2: event that was discussing a subject that I A wasn't
Speaker 2: that interested in or B was interested in but didn't
Speaker 2: agree with the speakers and then make it a point
Speaker 2: to go to their tables or stand up in the
Speaker 2: Q and a's and hurl insults or arguments at them.
Speaker 2: Like that would never occur to me. It's just not
Speaker 2: that interesting. So there are certainly people who I've seen
Speaker 2: do that at these conferences, in these events, and it
Speaker 2: gets a little strange because you're like, well, there's nothing
Speaker 2: you could say to those people in those moments that
Speaker 2: are going to alleviate the problem. You know, even if
Speaker 2: you said, oh, I agree with you wholeheartedly, like, I
Speaker 2: still don't think that would. I don't know what it
Speaker 2: is they want, you know, maybe they just want to
Speaker 2: be heard. Who knows. But there was a gentleman who
Speaker 2: came up to me in at Squatchfest the first year
Speaker 2: that I did with you, in twenty twenty four, and
Speaker 2: he came up very angrily, and basically, he angrily and
Speaker 2: directly asked me if I was aware of like a
Speaker 2: certain case, certain area, and I say, oh, yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: I'm familiar with that case and those claims. And then
Speaker 2: he angrily told me that he had designed and built
Speaker 2: the device that opened the portal that brought the Sasquatches
Speaker 2: to that location.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I remember that. I do remember that.
Speaker 2: It was like this sort of angry, fiery delivery. And
Speaker 2: all I could say was like, oh, good for you, man.
Speaker 2: What do you say to that?
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know, Yeah, I designed the machine
Speaker 3: that opened the Yeah, it doesn't make yeah, yeah, what
Speaker 3: do you say? A lot of times I'm left speechless.
Speaker 3: I don't know what to say, and it's probably best
Speaker 3: that I don't say anything oftentimes, but I rarely get
Speaker 3: in trouble for things I didn't say.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, I'm not going to say, oh I
Speaker 2: believe you, and you know it's not going to go
Speaker 2: very well if I, Oh, that's all bs, because you know,
Speaker 2: clearly this person, I think, to some degree believed what
Speaker 2: he was saying. Hints the emotional content of the interaction,
Speaker 2: and so all I could say is, oh, good for you, you know, congratulations.
Speaker 2: I don't know what else you are looking for here.
Speaker 2: It's a very difficult situation. I just don't imagine that
Speaker 2: there are very many ecologically or biologically oriented people going
Speaker 2: to WHO or paranormal conferences and saying how familiar are
Speaker 2: you with the you know, like the phylogenetic continuity across
Speaker 2: the Asian wood ain't blind? Huh? You know, Like I
Speaker 2: just don't see that happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know what Bob goes my mind is
Speaker 3: like why does my opinion matter to people? I'll never
Speaker 3: quite understand that, because I mean, a lot of times
Speaker 3: my opinion doesn't even matter to me, Like, why would
Speaker 3: it matter to these other people I've never even met.
Speaker 3: And I know that they're looking for authority figures and
Speaker 3: they for some reason see me as one and whatever.
Speaker 3: I get that. I get that, but it's just like
Speaker 3: when you bring it home, man, I don't I'm nobody special.
Speaker 3: I just have a little bit more experience, and then
Speaker 3: and then people get mad at me for saying things
Speaker 3: like you asked me a question and then I give
Speaker 3: you an answer you don't like, and you're mad at me. Now,
Speaker 3: don't ask man. It's like, don't get mad at me
Speaker 3: for answering the question you asked. I had some guy
Speaker 3: on social media just recently tell me that he'll never
Speaker 3: forget the time that I told him that sasquatches don't
Speaker 3: climb trees, which is weird because I think they do.
Speaker 3: I don't know why I would have said that. Maybe
Speaker 3: it was a long long time ago. I don't really know.
Speaker 3: But this guy was so mad because you lost my
Speaker 3: vote that day permanently, is what he told me. And
Speaker 3: I looked him up. He follows me, Yeah, he follows
Speaker 3: me on social media. It's like, like, what did I lose?
Speaker 3: What vote is this? I'm not running for office, dude,
Speaker 3: Like what vote could you possibly have that I lost?
Speaker 3: You still follow me on social media? That's the only
Speaker 3: vote you get. I just don't understand people. But you
Speaker 3: know what's oddly funny is like, while we're having this
Speaker 3: conversation right now, I think it was pretty funny that
Speaker 3: I just got a text from Maria Bay or actually
Speaker 3: from Expedition Bigfoot, right. She just happened to text me
Speaker 3: right now while we're on this conversation about if maybe
Speaker 3: I have a few bins to talk about possibly doing
Speaker 3: a presentation, maybe some event or something that she's involved in.
Speaker 3: I don't know what it is. I haven't talked her yet.
Speaker 3: I don't know anything about it. But Maria is a
Speaker 3: good friend, you know. I don't talk to her a
Speaker 3: lot or whatever, but whenever on gigs together, you know,
Speaker 3: we hang out. We talk about biology and apes and
Speaker 3: all that sort of stuff. It's fun. So I said, hey,
Speaker 3: I'm on a podcast, let me call you back, and
Speaker 3: she goes, oh, yeah, I should have known that, because
Speaker 3: you know how I can. I'm a remote viewer, And
Speaker 3: of course she put the joking emoji. She's not a
Speaker 3: remote viewer, of course, but she thought that was pretty funny.
Speaker 3: Kind of again once again heckling, lightly, heckling the paranormal folks.
Speaker 3: But so, because we've talked about how difficult it is
Speaker 3: to keep things grounded in science when everybody wants sasquatches
Speaker 3: to appear and disappear interdimensionally and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: So you should ask her if she has an hour
Speaker 2: to spare right now, and we'll do a bonus episode
Speaker 2: with her. Since has showed on us well, I can
Speaker 2: certainly rope her into being a podcast guest. I mean,
Speaker 2: you and I have both on her show, so she
Speaker 2: kind of owes us one right. Absolutely, But No, to
Speaker 2: your point about people's oh kind of word this, I'm
Speaker 2: really trying to thread the needle here and not just
Speaker 2: like piss off everybody.
Speaker 3: Everybody can't piss everybody off. You're not that good. No.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think most of our audience knows where
Speaker 2: we're coming from. Again, they've the sign's been on the
Speaker 2: door for a long time. They've walked in knowing what
Speaker 2: to expect and what they're going to get. I just
Speaker 2: think there's something to be said for like the idea
Speaker 2: of strong beliefs loosely held because so much I wrote
Speaker 2: about this in the book, and this is a recurring
Speaker 2: conversation I have with people, and it rubs a lot
Speaker 2: of my friends the wrong way, but I still think
Speaker 2: it's the right way to think about it. Is that
Speaker 2: so much of what we are engaged in is belief based. Again,
Speaker 2: for the listener, Like, the definition of belief is to
Speaker 2: accept a statement or proposition as true, and so much
Speaker 2: of what we engage in, you know, is dependent on
Speaker 2: the acceptance of statements or propositions is true that we
Speaker 2: can't directly verify or falsify, and that opens up a
Speaker 2: lot of doors. A it makes you a lot more
Speaker 2: humble when you realize, like, well, some of these things
Speaker 2: like I don't know, and I can't know like any
Speaker 2: given sasquatch case, I can't know what really happened. It's
Speaker 2: not possible. Do I believe this witness? Do I not
Speaker 2: believe this witness? Do I believe that this evidence was
Speaker 2: collected in the way that it was claimed to have
Speaker 2: been or was found in the place and in the
Speaker 2: conditions that it was said to have been found? And sure,
Speaker 2: but it also makes me humble because I realize a
Speaker 2: lot of that those are just beliefs. And it also
Speaker 2: makes me more forgiving of other people. And so I
Speaker 2: will readily say, whereas I used to really shrink away people,
Speaker 2: do you believe in Bigfoot? Well, it's not about belief,
Speaker 2: it's about evidence, and it's about what's convincing. And I
Speaker 2: have no problem with saying, yeah, I believe that the
Speaker 2: Sasquatch exists. I accept that proposition. I don't know in
Speaker 2: the sense that like I've not seen one in daylight
Speaker 2: at close range, like you know that I think would
Speaker 2: be the absolute knowledge, like that direct knowledge, short of
Speaker 2: getting like you know, picked up and thrown by one
Speaker 2: or something like that. But I can hold a lot
Speaker 2: of these things loosely. If any given case that I
Speaker 2: think is true right now we're overturned and proven to
Speaker 2: be a hoax, well that's fine, Like it wouldn't shatter
Speaker 2: my identity. It wouldn't. It'd be a bummer, depending on
Speaker 2: the case. But none of that has anything to do
Speaker 2: with like, Okay, well I had a strong belief loosely held.
Speaker 2: There's other things to pursue and to look into related
Speaker 2: to this subject. And so it's not like a house
Speaker 2: of cards where you pull out one thing and the
Speaker 2: entire system comes crumbling down. But for some reason, a
Speaker 2: lot of people in this faction that we're talking about,
Speaker 2: you know, their beliefs and their identity are sort of
Speaker 2: one and the same, and so to question a belief
Speaker 2: and half of them aren't even beliefs, they're just really
Speaker 2: like unexamined assumptions, you know, untested presuppositions, that kind of
Speaker 2: thing that they do take it personally, and they do
Speaker 2: see it as sort of like an insult, or they'll
Speaker 2: vice versa, use our beliefs as insults. You believe this,
Speaker 2: then you must be you think they're just apes? How
Speaker 2: stupid are you? On and on and on where it's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: that is what I think, and could I be wrong? Like, oh,
Speaker 2: well of course, but if there was some other phenomena
Speaker 2: behind the sasquatch phenomenon and that was demonstrated, Okay, fine,
Speaker 2: that's great. I would love the answers. But none of
Speaker 2: that I don't think would be like identity or life
Speaker 2: shattering in any way, shape or form. And so it's
Speaker 2: usually this faction that we're describing that has that, you know,
Speaker 2: instead of strong beliefs loosely held, they have like loose
Speaker 2: beliefs strongly held, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: That's funny, that's great. Yeah, which I guess is the
Speaker 3: need for science, because I'll say it again, I say
Speaker 3: this in a lot of my presentations. Science is not
Speaker 3: a body of knowledge that is tightly held by academics
Speaker 3: in order to keep us all in line. It is
Speaker 3: not a way. Really, it's not something that they are
Speaker 3: hiding from us and all this. It is a process.
Speaker 3: Science is really kind of a verb in a lot
Speaker 3: of ways. It is a process to find out what
Speaker 3: is real. You think something is real, you design a
Speaker 3: test for it. Does it pass the test. If so,
Speaker 3: you design another test to see if it passes that
Speaker 3: one too, and you share with your friends and they
Speaker 3: can do similar tests. If it does not pass the test,
Speaker 3: then you guess again. You know, that's basically science. It's
Speaker 3: a process of testing your beliefs, beliefs against the evidence
Speaker 3: that you find, especially in well designed experiments, to see
Speaker 3: what is true it is not. You know, this works,
Speaker 3: that doesn't period. Believe me, No, it's not that at all.
Speaker 3: It's the questioning process to get to that place. And
Speaker 3: then that's what science is really all about, which is
Speaker 3: why I'm glad we have good thinkers. There's a small
Speaker 3: number of really good thinkers in this field, and of
Speaker 3: course the whole Derby thing as well. By the way,
Speaker 3: Darby is going to be speaking at the museum this
Speaker 3: coming Wednesday, and only if you are a member of
Speaker 3: the podcast or the museum, are you allowed to come.
Speaker 3: So if you want a ticket and you are a member,
Speaker 3: go to the Patreon and do what you need to
Speaker 3: do down there. So it's not for the general public,
Speaker 3: but that's just another benefit of being a member of
Speaker 3: the podcast or the museum. But this is a podcast
Speaker 3: right now, So if you want to become a member
Speaker 3: and attend the Darby Talk at the Museum, go to
Speaker 3: the link that Matt Prode we'll put down in the
Speaker 3: show notes, and then become a member. It's five dollars
Speaker 3: a month. And for that five dollars a month, you
Speaker 3: get an extra episode every single week, and you also
Speaker 3: get this episode, the regular one with zero commercials period. Nothing,
Speaker 3: no hair growth products, no read alouds, no locally piped
Speaker 3: in commercials, nothing, just us so and of course a
Speaker 3: lot of other benefits too, like when I talk about something,
Speaker 3: hey you got a goold cast or this happened or whatever,
Speaker 3: we get pictures and we put them up on the
Speaker 3: Patreon for people we ask we ask questions, you get
Speaker 3: the submit questions for member episodes, and also every once
Speaker 3: in a while you get to come to cool special
Speaker 3: events that nobody but the members get to come to,
Speaker 3: like this thing, So if that's you, If you want
Speaker 3: to come and you want to buy a ticket, feel
Speaker 3: free to become a member. So cool stuff is happening.
Speaker 2: And we do have the best member community of all
Speaker 2: of the online Sasquatch communities that I've seen him been
Speaker 2: a part of, which is a great many over the years,
Speaker 2: this one is the best. Everyone's very thoughtful, you know,
Speaker 2: haven't had to kick anybody out or delete any comments
Speaker 2: or anything like that. Like, there's a good vibe. So
Speaker 2: if that's your vibe, feel free to join. Don't be
Speaker 2: the first person I've kicked out. Please, Now that's going
Speaker 2: to be Bobo.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: Actually I wanted to bring this up with Bobo on
Speaker 2: the podcast, but since he's not here. Not only is
Speaker 2: Bobo a member, but I've just noticed he actually has
Speaker 2: two membership accounts because he has two email addresses, you know,
Speaker 2: two different servers, but the same like user name. So
Speaker 2: I can only guess that he signed up with one
Speaker 2: and then he tried to sign in with the other,
Speaker 2: and when it told him he didn't have an account,
Speaker 2: he just created another account. So Bobo pays for two
Speaker 2: memberships for himself, and as far as I can tell,
Speaker 2: none of our other members pay for two memberships, so
Speaker 2: Bobo is our highest paying, single highest paying member.
Speaker 3: Well, he must like the podcast more than anyone else,
Speaker 3: not enough to show up, but as far as as
Speaker 3: far as listening, he must love this podcast. Few well played,
Speaker 3: well played Robo Bobo.
Speaker 2: We do miss Bobo? Wherefore ardl Bobio? I guess Well,
Speaker 2: that's the great thing is we will get to find
Speaker 2: out altogether one day when he hops on next and
Speaker 2: tells us where he was and why he missed it.
Speaker 2: I'm sure it will be amazing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff
Speaker 3: and Bobo will be right back after these messages. You know,
Speaker 3: one of the things that came to mind while we
Speaker 3: were speaking this a little while ago, Matt, is this
Speaker 3: idea of being a sasquatch researcher, right, because I've been
Speaker 3: saying this a lot, because it occurred to me that
Speaker 3: like most Bigfoot researchers aren't really researchers per se. You know,
Speaker 3: they're more fans of the subject. They're officionados. They go
Speaker 3: to the conferences, maybe they surf the web. They have
Speaker 3: maybe a Facebook group or something like that. And I'm
Speaker 3: only judging that and for some people, I guess that
Speaker 3: would be a pretty harsh judgment to accept. But I'm
Speaker 3: only saying that from a cliff centric point of view,
Speaker 3: which is from the position I do most things. You know,
Speaker 3: very cliff centric world I live in. So for me,
Speaker 3: I have this idea of what sasquatch research looks like,
Speaker 3: and I'm not sure a lot of people do that.
Speaker 3: I mean, I try to live up to my own standards,
Speaker 3: and I feel like I fail most of the time.
Speaker 3: So I'm curious, because you're very thoughtful gentleman, and you
Speaker 3: think about things all the time. You have really interesting
Speaker 3: ideas and stuff. What does what does quality research look like?
Speaker 2: I think it is equal parts armchair and field research,
Speaker 2: and I think it's equal parts like propositional and participatory.
Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of people who are strictly armchair
Speaker 2: quote unquote researchers, and there's a lot of value to that.
Speaker 2: And if someone was digging into the right materials or
Speaker 2: at least what I would consider to be like the foundational,
Speaker 2: rock solid sort of canonical materials and that was what
Speaker 2: their armchair research consisted of, I think that would be
Speaker 2: amazing and beneficial, whether not just within the canon of
Speaker 2: sasquatch literature either, but you know, related disciplines, other relevant disciplines,
Speaker 2: things about the other apes or evolutionary biology, ecology, behavioral ecology,
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. But I think there's a number
Speaker 2: of people now who's entirety of armchair resoarch hich is
Speaker 2: solely restricted to network television, sensational YouTube channels, and you
Speaker 2: know podcasts, not really you know, being hosted by other researchers,
Speaker 2: but just by other enthusiasts. And then I've seen the
Speaker 2: flip side where there are these people that spend all
Speaker 2: their time in the field of whatever amount of time
Speaker 2: that is, but all of their sasquatch allotted time is
Speaker 2: you know, in the woods, whether hiking, camping, searching, whatever
Speaker 2: the case may be. But who flat out refuse to
Speaker 2: crack the first book a resource. I've encountered that many times,
Speaker 2: where people say, like, I don't want to be influenced
Speaker 2: by the literature. I want to make up my own mind,
Speaker 2: so I don't need to read that stuff, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't want to read it, I don't need to
Speaker 2: read it, And that to me is equally problematic. I mean,
Speaker 2: I've been in organizations with people like that who had
Speaker 2: no clue about the history of sasquatchry or the you know,
Speaker 2: the best like analyzes of the best physical or trace
Speaker 2: evidence or multimedia evidence, and so very often they'll quote
Speaker 2: unquote discover things that's still useful information, but they don't
Speaker 2: even understand where that would fall in the context of
Speaker 2: the history of the pursuit or how it relates to
Speaker 2: other finds elsewhere. I've seen people totally reject amazing opportunities
Speaker 2: in these organizations because they were so unfamiliar with the person.
Speaker 2: And then after the opportunity was rejected, I'd bet, hey,
Speaker 2: that was a huge mistake this person. Did you know ABC, D, E, F,
Speaker 2: and G. And they, well, how am I supposed to
Speaker 2: know that? I'm like, well, if you were a real researcher,
Speaker 2: you would know who this person is and what their
Speaker 2: accomplishments were and why it would have benefited you to
Speaker 2: take this opportunity with them. And so I think you
Speaker 2: have to have equal parts of both. But I do
Speaker 2: think the term has been so bastardized in the modern
Speaker 2: culture to sort of be an identity. It's almost like
Speaker 2: there's a a costume, you know, like well, I get
Speaker 2: the backpack and the headlamp and the hat and the
Speaker 2: camp chair, and now I'm a sasquatch researcher, you know.
Speaker 1: What I mean?
Speaker 2: Like there's a certain look or like cosplay LARPing element
Speaker 2: of it, which is the skeptics think we're all doing
Speaker 2: all the time. But you know, I think it's a continuum.
Speaker 2: There's people who are strictly doing that. So when I
Speaker 2: wrote the book, for example, you know, you're trying to
Speaker 2: set up these designators for people, whether it's like proponents
Speaker 2: and skeptics or believers and cynics. But instead of using
Speaker 2: researcher for the most part, I chose to use the
Speaker 2: word contender because I think that a lot of us
Speaker 2: are contending with the mystery or the proposition or the
Speaker 2: question what is behind the sasquatch phenomenon? Does the sasquatch
Speaker 2: exists as a living species of animal, whatever the case
Speaker 2: may be. Like we're grappling or wrestling with those questions,
Speaker 2: and you know, fighting and struggling against trying to sort
Speaker 2: the wheat from the chaff and get to these answers.
Speaker 2: And so I wanted to use that term so that
Speaker 2: the reader would understand that there's a difference between like
Speaker 2: genuinely contending with the mystery and just getting a red
Speaker 2: headlamp and saying I'm a researcher because you go camping
Speaker 2: once a year or something like that. So to me,
Speaker 2: good research is participatory, like you're out in the field.
Speaker 2: You're doing it. It's propositional. You know, you're not only
Speaker 2: getting familiar with the literature, but you're trying to add
Speaker 2: to it and expand to it with new hypotheses and
Speaker 2: new perspectives and concepts. So it's equal armchair and field
Speaker 2: research using sober minded, dedicated methods that you could derive
Speaker 2: from relevant disciplines.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, the foundational literature has really become a
Speaker 3: new focus again for me, or refocus, i should say,
Speaker 3: because I mean I've read all the John Green books,
Speaker 3: of course, probably this couple of times. I've read Krantz's stuff,
Speaker 3: of Meltrum's book. I revisit many of these books yearly, actually,
Speaker 3: and I try to branch out and read some new
Speaker 3: stuff every once in a while. But there's not a
Speaker 3: lot of new stuff in my PA. Of course, I
Speaker 3: don't a lot of the books that are coming out.
Speaker 3: They're not they're not formatted very well. They're the rife
Speaker 3: with the spelling mistakes and that sort of stuff, and
Speaker 3: it's like, well, I'm not going to read this. The
Speaker 3: person didn't take the time to do it right, I'm
Speaker 3: not going to read it. I may have it, but
Speaker 3: I'm not going to read it. But the foundational stuff,
Speaker 3: the John Green stuff, for example, has become a little
Speaker 3: bit more important to me lately, just because maybe it
Speaker 3: was through conversations with you, because you and I talk
Speaker 3: all the time off when we're not on the air
Speaker 3: or whatever. It might be somebody else as well. I
Speaker 3: don't remember. But nowadays, if you want to know what
Speaker 3: bigfoots are thought to do, you can watch you know,
Speaker 3: any number of television shows or YouTube channels and you know,
Speaker 3: and get a general idea pretty quick, which makes it
Speaker 3: a lot easier to fake evidence. For example. You know,
Speaker 3: but if if you find a reference to knocking in
Speaker 3: the nineteen seventies or nineteen eighties or something like that,
Speaker 3: well that's significant because that was before it was widely
Speaker 3: known they did that. And just recently I've been rereading
Speaker 3: the John Green like the thin books, you know, like
Speaker 3: the skinny ones. You're the Sasquatch and you know, all
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff, the softcover ones that he published
Speaker 3: in the early nineteen seventies, You're the Sasquatch, all those things,
Speaker 3: and I came. I was doing some research for a
Speaker 3: new display that we're developing at the NABC about the
Speaker 3: nomenclature of a bigfoot and sasquatch and stuff, and Jerry
Speaker 3: Crew in particular. So I was reading through the Jerry
Speaker 3: Cruse stuff just in case there is something I missed
Speaker 3: in there. And of course I'm assuming that all of
Speaker 3: our listeners know who Jerry Crew is, but just in case,
Speaker 3: because we do have, you know, fledgling people out there
Speaker 3: coming into the subject. And you know, I referred a
Speaker 3: couple of customers in the NABC today to the podcasts
Speaker 3: who you know are just kind of new to the subject.
Speaker 3: Maybe they're going to listen. But Jerry Crewe was the
Speaker 3: guy who casts the very very first known Sasquatch footprint
Speaker 3: cast that is still in existence. There was a police
Speaker 3: officer that casts several before that, but all those are
Speaker 3: we don't know where they are. They're probably destroyed or
Speaker 3: thrown away. But Jerry Crew casts one and it is
Speaker 3: still in existence. Actually, a little known fact cast two,
Speaker 3: but one of them crumbled when they removed it from
Speaker 3: the ground, but one of them survives to this very day.
Speaker 3: While reading through the Jerry Crewe Encounters and whatever else,
Speaker 3: I found a reference. It's just a short little paragraph
Speaker 3: in one of the John Green books that says something
Speaker 3: to the effect of an odd We followed the tracks
Speaker 3: down to the creek that crossed the creek and started
Speaker 3: going to the other side of the creek or whatever,
Speaker 3: and they mentioned an odd find of a small I
Speaker 3: think three or five, I don't remember how many, they said,
Speaker 3: of trees that the tops had been partially broken off
Speaker 3: of at about you know, six or eight feet off
Speaker 3: the ground or something like that. And I say, oh,
Speaker 3: partially broken. Well, that's exactly what we're finding, you know,
Speaker 3: out in the woods right now. Basically, you know, I
Speaker 3: found a new tree break just a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 3: and most of mine are twisted, of course, not just broken,
Speaker 3: but twisted, and several of them have had sasquatch footprints
Speaker 3: at the base of them. So I'm pretty confident that
Speaker 3: sasquatches are responsible for at least a percentage of the
Speaker 3: tracks or the tree breaks that we're finding. But the
Speaker 3: fact that you found that in a John Green book
Speaker 3: foundational literature, when he was following up on the first
Speaker 3: trackway that was recorded in casts ever in all Bigfoot history,
Speaker 3: that adds extra weight to that level of evidence to me,
Speaker 3: because there was no influence at that time that sasquatches
Speaker 3: break trees back in nineteen fifty eight. I don't even
Speaker 3: think it was widely known. I could be wrong. That's
Speaker 3: where we need a primatologist widely known that apes broke trees,
Speaker 3: you know, in stress stressful situations and stuff. Maybe they
Speaker 3: did know that, but that was before Jane Goodall and
Speaker 3: Diane Fosse and stuff did all their pioneering research. So
Speaker 3: there's at least a reasonable chance that privatologists didn't know
Speaker 3: that about apes. And the fact that John Green just
Speaker 3: had this throwaway paragraph in his book that said basically,
Speaker 3: that adds a lot of weight to the tree break
Speaker 3: situation to me. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Speaker 2: I think you're exactly right in that it's very important
Speaker 2: to find information that describes environmental evidence like that or
Speaker 2: things that we can infer were associated with the sasquatch phenomenon,
Speaker 2: if not living sasquatches themselves in those earliest times, and
Speaker 2: especially in the times prior to the observational field studies
Speaker 2: of great apes in their environments.
Speaker 3: I hate to interrupt, but I just found the paragraph
Speaker 3: because I took a picture of it, and I think
Speaker 3: I might have sent it to you. I'm not sure.
Speaker 3: But here's the paragraph itself that we're discussing right now.
Speaker 3: And I forget which book it's from. It's one of
Speaker 3: the softcover John Green books. And here's a direct quote
Speaker 3: from the book as I'm reading it. The track maker,
Speaker 3: which is the Jerry Crue animal, had reached the bar
Speaker 3: over the log jam and had left. By the way,
Speaker 3: this bar isn't a drinking bars, a sandbar. The track
Speaker 3: maker had reached the bar over the log jam and
Speaker 3: had left to climb the hillside. Most of the area
Speaker 3: was rocky or was too hard packed to show print.
Speaker 3: Following the line of the tracks into the brush, however,
Speaker 3: we were puzzled to find three small trees some distance apart,
Speaker 3: each with the top partially broken off about eight feet
Speaker 3: above the ground, and then twisted around the lower part
Speaker 3: of the trunk. Olthough it was a twist, that's what
Speaker 3: I'm talking about here.
Speaker 2: So it's fascinating because, yeah, you know, I've read and
Speaker 2: re read those books. I try to read all the
Speaker 2: ones I consider to be foundational at least like once
Speaker 2: a year, once every two years, and every single time
Speaker 2: something new leaps out to me. And if you would
Speaker 2: ask me, hey, do you remember John Green writing anything
Speaker 2: about twisted trees, especially, you know, during the Bluff Creek
Speaker 2: investigations in the early days, I would have said, now,
Speaker 2: I don't remember anything like that, even though I've read
Speaker 2: those books so many times. Because they're so densely packed,
Speaker 2: you can't memorize every bit of it. So it is
Speaker 2: really important. And then to your earlier point, like, the
Speaker 2: first real observational field study that gets published was George
Speaker 2: Schaller's field study is Mountain Gorillas, and that would have
Speaker 2: been in that fifty eight to fifty nine time frame,
Speaker 2: and then published in book form in the Mountain Gorilla
Speaker 2: Behavior and Ecology in like sixty one or sixty two
Speaker 2: somewhere thereabouts. I'd have to pull up the book and
Speaker 2: double check that date, but that's roughly the timeline, so
Speaker 2: that certainly would have preceded the publication of that book.
Speaker 2: So there wouldn't have been some place that they could
Speaker 2: have derived that inspiration from. Now, you know, there might
Speaker 2: be references to the manipulation of vegetation in Dshaiyou's book.
Speaker 2: I think it's called Explorations of Equatorial Africa, in which
Speaker 2: DSHAIU in the mid eighteen hundreds officially, you know, discovers
Speaker 2: for the western world the lowland gorilla. But I don't
Speaker 2: know how familiar you know, Green and those guys would
Speaker 2: have been with that particular book that would have already
Speaker 2: been almost one hundred years old at that point. And
Speaker 2: keeping in mind too that in those early days, Green
Speaker 2: is very explicit about this, is that the pardamin in
Speaker 2: view that was proposed by J. W. Burns and some
Speaker 2: of the other early writers was that the Sasquatches were
Speaker 2: some sort of a type of people, and so they
Speaker 2: were almost envisioning them as like humans with basically like
Speaker 2: loincloths or some kind of clothing and long head haair
Speaker 2: running around, barefooted, giant humans, very large humans. But it
Speaker 2: took a lot of eyewitness interviews in testimony firsthand before
Speaker 2: the image really emerged in their minds that like, oh no, no,
Speaker 2: that's not what people are describing at all. They just
Speaker 2: you know, pulled from indigenous accounts that referred to them
Speaker 2: as another sort of people, and then they transposed or
Speaker 2: transmuted that image into what they perceived to be just
Speaker 2: large indigenous people. And so you know, Green's very explicit
Speaker 2: about that to say, well, look at William Roade described
Speaker 2: prior to fifty eight or what Osman ended up describing,
Speaker 2: like that didn't quite jib with J. W. Burns's version
Speaker 2: of the Sasquatch, but a jib with all the other
Speaker 2: eyewitness accounts. And so it's not like even if Green
Speaker 2: had the inclination to pull inspiration from something like Paul
Speaker 2: Deshaihu's eighteen sixties book, that he would have necessarily transposed
Speaker 2: like gorillas or those other sorts of apes onto that
Speaker 2: versus trying to look for analogs in the human realm,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I like that early. That early stuff
Speaker 3: carries more weight now to me. That's kind of a
Speaker 3: new a newer revelation. I think I've been coming to
Speaker 3: that for a long time, but it's a newer revelation
Speaker 3: to me because of the lack of influence that could
Speaker 3: have been put on those earlier those earlier sources, you know,
Speaker 3: like those earlier reports.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they didn't have inspirational materials. You know, they didn't
Speaker 2: have podcasts and YouTube channels and network televisions and documentaries
Speaker 2: or you know, billboards or jack links, jerky commercials or
Speaker 2: you know. The imagistic representation of the Sasquatch is so
Speaker 2: pervasive now that you can hardly meet anyone who can't
Speaker 2: immediately recognize that image and tell you what it is,
Speaker 2: even if they don't believe that animals exist. They'll go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's a bigfoot or a sasquatch. Well, what is a
Speaker 2: big foot? Oh, it's this big hairy thing lives in
Speaker 2: the woods. Some people say they see it. You know,
Speaker 2: they move around at night, they smell bad. You know,
Speaker 2: people have like a general knowledge because it's such a
Speaker 2: cultural icon wink wink to the book subtitle. But it
Speaker 2: genuinely is versus. At that time, it just wasn't you know,
Speaker 2: there was no inspirational material from which they could draw
Speaker 2: these points, let alone these finer points. And I think
Speaker 2: that just gets more and more important further back in history.
Speaker 2: You look, I try to lay out multiple examples in
Speaker 2: my book, not only in the indigenous representations chapter, but
Speaker 2: the Historical record chapter about what I interpret to be
Speaker 2: behavioral norms, ecological norms and trends that we now know
Speaker 2: well about the Great Apes and the way that they
Speaker 2: interact with their environment and not only their physical adaptations,
Speaker 2: but more specifically behavioral adaptations to thrive and survive in
Speaker 2: those environments. That I try to demonstrate multiple examples that, like, well,
Speaker 2: the first time you see this sort of behavior described
Speaker 2: is actually in the canon of Sasquatch data before it's
Speaker 2: described in the you know, known extant Great Ape literature.
Speaker 2: And to see so many examples of that, it's like,
Speaker 2: there's really something going on there, because again, they would
Speaker 2: have had no inspiration to pull that from There would
Speaker 2: have been nothing, you know, unless they actually saw what
Speaker 2: they claimed to have seen.
Speaker 3: You know, I was having this conversation just the other
Speaker 3: day with somebody who has some issues with the Freeman casts.
Speaker 3: But evidence needs to look be looked at in context,
Speaker 3: and you know, I think that's a good topic that
Speaker 3: how about if we get off now and we'll talk
Speaker 3: about that. How the context of evidence matters quite a bit,
Speaker 3: lending authenticity or not to whatever piece of evidence there is,
Speaker 3: but the contextual thing is very very interesting, particularly when
Speaker 3: you come to some of the individual footprints gathered by
Speaker 3: the Blue Mountain folks, a couple of them by Paul Freeman,
Speaker 3: a couple by West Summerland, other folks. So don't want
Speaker 3: to we get off the main episode here and go
Speaker 3: over and join the pigeons and see what they're up
Speaker 3: to there, and we can do our member episode over
Speaker 3: there and talk about like the contextualization of evidence and
Speaker 3: what that can't show us or can't show us in
Speaker 3: some ways.
Speaker 2: I would love to do that, because, Yeah, there's there's
Speaker 2: a lot to be said for that. As you were
Speaker 2: describing that, multiple examples came to mind that I think
Speaker 2: it would be good to discuss. So let's make it happen.
Speaker 3: Right on, very good. Well, before we go, I just
Speaker 3: want I know we talked about Tom Powell a lot
Speaker 3: this episode. I haven't talked to him in a couple
Speaker 3: of weeks. Here. I need to give him a call,
Speaker 3: miss a guy, but I wanted to let everybody know
Speaker 3: that Tom Powell. I don't think that that's even been
Speaker 3: announced yet, but here's a secret for you. Tom Powell
Speaker 3: is going to be speaking at the same event as
Speaker 3: me in Hawking Hills. I hope this isn't getting anybody up,
Speaker 3: said aout. I'm announcing this, but Tom Powell is going
Speaker 3: to be at the Hawking Hills Bigfoot Festival with me
Speaker 3: out in August August seventh through tenth in MacArthur, Ohio.
Speaker 3: So if you want to come hang out with me
Speaker 3: and Tom Powell and whoever else might are you going
Speaker 3: to go to that one?
Speaker 2: Matt, I am not going to be at that one.
Speaker 2: I'm doing a different event in Ohio at the end
Speaker 2: of September, so my travel days are limited to the
Speaker 2: few events that I've committed to, which I guess, speaking of,
Speaker 2: it's probably about time that I start announcing. I will
Speaker 2: be speaking at the Capitol Library, the Warren County Public Library,
Speaker 2: and I'll put links in the show notes in Bowling Green,
Speaker 2: Kentucky with doctor Moray Mayer and other speakers there. And
Speaker 2: that's August first and second. I think first is the
Speaker 2: speakers meet and greet VIP dinner sort of thing. So
Speaker 2: the event is on Saturday, August the second, where the
Speaker 2: speakers will be, but I'll put a link to that
Speaker 2: in the show notes.
Speaker 3: Well. Robo Bobo you want to get us out of here,
Speaker 3: so all right, well, I think that's the We have
Speaker 3: a pretty limited vocabular in the robo bobo, So right
Speaker 3: there you go, folks, do what you need to do,
Speaker 3: and thanks so much for listening, and until next time,
Speaker 3: you'll keep it squatchy. Thanks for listening to this week's
Speaker 3: episode of Bigfoot and Beyond. If you liked what you heard,
Speaker 3: please rate and review us on iTunes, subscribe to Bigfoot
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