WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:06.599 Right. Well, look, we're back at the game Fair again 2 00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:11.400 on Saturday, and we're once again in the heat trap 3 00:00:11.800 --> 00:00:16.079 that is the back of the GWCT stand. And I'm 4 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:20.199 very pleased to say that joining me now is a 5 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:25.239 good pal of mine, Jamie Blackett, who has just started 6 00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:30.039 a new organization called Grand Cry. Now, Jamie, can you 7 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:34.000 tell me a little bit about yourself and then why 8 00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:35.320 Grand Cry Well? 9 00:00:35.399 --> 00:00:40.679 Richard, Yeah, thanks for having me here. And I farm 10 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:46.799 in Dumfrieshe Peninsula sticking out into the Solway first, which 11 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:50.200 is for those who know it is bird central. Really 12 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:56.799 every curl you in Europe probably knows. Our foreshore passes 13 00:00:56.840 --> 00:01:01.159 through it on the migrations, as do the gee and 14 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:05.879 we're blessed with a really good biodiversity, really lots of 15 00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:09.239 different birds, and that's important to me as a farmer. 16 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:15.840 I'm a dairy farmer primarily, and the frustration for me 17 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:20.560 is that over the last twenty five years I've done 18 00:01:20.599 --> 00:01:26.239 lots of conservation measures and most of them seem to work. Really, 19 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.280 you plant a hedge, as you know, and I'm now 20 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:33.040 actually at the stage of laying the hedges, and you know, 21 00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:37.280 you get yellow hammers and all the finches and whatever. 22 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:40.439 You put up a length of dry stone wall, you 23 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:44.400 get more wrens and wagtails and whatever. And you put 24 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:46.840 up an owl box and you get a bar now 25 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:49.400 who eats the mice coming out of the dry stone 26 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:51.480 wall and the voles coming out of the hedge and whatever. 27 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:56.400 But where I'm very conscious we are failing is with 28 00:01:56.560 --> 00:02:00.159 our ground nesting birds. I just can't seem to to 29 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:03.319 get it to work. You know. We we dig wader 30 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:06.599 scrapes and the laprins come along and they start to 31 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:08.879 try to nest, and then something happens and then it's 32 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:13.319 all a disaster. We put in, you know, meadows that 33 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:17.719 attract the larks, and you know, we've had a little 34 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:20.879 bit of success, but really it should be the lark 35 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:25.000 song should be deafening really in the spring, instead of 36 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:30.240 a little one here and there. And we all know 37 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:33.919 the reasons for that. What I call the elephants in 38 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:37.240 the room, the predators that we're not allowed to deal with, 39 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:41.759 the huge spike in Beso predators that's just getting worse. 40 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:48.159 The badgers, the goals, the problems with disturbance, and that 41 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:51.919 we have right to roame in Scotland, and you know, 42 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:54.840 I have no difficulty with that. I grew up there, 43 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:57.039 and you know that, I'm actually quite proud that we've 44 00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:00.800 never had this sort of law of trest in Scotland. 45 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:06.400 They have sides of the border, but it's got much 46 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:10.319 harder to actually channel people where you want them to 47 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:14.400 go away from ground nesting birds. People have got really 48 00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:17.479 sort of arcy about it now, and the law doesn't 49 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.560 allow you to put up signs saying, you know, crowndnesting 50 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:24.520 birds please go that way. People make a point of 51 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:27.280 ignoring them. They throw the signs into the ditches and whatever, 52 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:31.919 and it's just getting harder. And I thought, right, you know, 53 00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:37.319 there's no point in approaching the RSPB because they they're 54 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:41.080 not interested in all this sort of stuff, and there 55 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:43.919 doesn't seem to be you know, the gw CT. We're 56 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:47.240 behind the fantastic organization, but they're there to do research. 57 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:52.599 They're not there to change public opinion or lobby politicians. 58 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:56.919 So I thought, right, well, we will start an organization 59 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:00.639 a campaign. Really, I mean it's a campaign. I don't 60 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:03.599 really I don't really want to become an organization that 61 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:06.599 that just exists in order to exist and sells Christmas 62 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:09.560 cards and calendars and whatever. I'm not appointing any fingers, 63 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:12.479 but we all know what I'm talking about. I want 64 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:15.080 to I want to have a campaign. The response has 65 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:19.399 been fantastic. We're going to have a panel of advisors 66 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:23.000 with a wealth of experience, people like Colin strang Steel, 67 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:27.639 former chairman of Songbird Survival, in Colkill, former chairman of GWCT. 68 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:30.959 And we're going to get lots of heavyweight communicators who 69 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:33.000 are going to be our ambassadors. And that's been a 70 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:35.680 fantastic response. And I'm going to wait for them. We're 71 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:37.879 going to dribble them out. They're going to announce themselves, 72 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:42.639 but there are going to be some real heavyweight communicators 73 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:46.399 who are going to do the missionary work. And you know, 74 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:50.319 I just realized that nothing's going to change unless public 75 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:51.279 opinion changes. 76 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:54.600 And that public opinion, Jamie is the found that people 77 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:58.160 are squeamish about prejudice control. 78 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.759 I think there is that, and I I think, you know, 79 00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:07.279 I mean take badges. I mean it's become very politicized. 80 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:13.639 I mean if one of these celebrity environmentalists fell over 81 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:18.079 and bumped his head and woke up with complete amnesia, 82 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:23.519 with his whole memory wiped and looked at things completely 83 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:27.759 objectively with fresh eyes, he would probably conclude that we 84 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:30.920 need to do something about the badges. But as it is, 85 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:33.480 they won't do that because of the you know, all 86 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:37.839 the culture wars and what psychologists call reinforcing behavior, and 87 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:40.959 once people have sort of nailed their colors to a 88 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:44.000 particular mass, it's very difficult for them to change their opinion. 89 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:48.879 And so, you know, we've got a whole generation of 90 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:55.519 young people who have grown up listening to certain opinion formers, 91 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:00.920 and they would find it very difficult to countenance reducing 92 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:05.399 the density of badgers from what is it ten per 93 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:10.560 square kilometer or something down to the average in a 94 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:15.319 normally functioning ecosystem with apex predators like wolves and bears, 95 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:19.920 of about zero point one badger per hector. And it 96 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:22.959 wouldn't necessarily need to do it by lethal methods. I mean, 97 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:27.639 you know, they're talking about catching up lots of badgers 98 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:31.639 and vaccinating them with his TV vaccine, aren't they Well, 99 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:33.959 why don't they just sterilize them at the same time. 100 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:40.040 It's a perfectly simple veterinary procedure happens in veterinary practices 101 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:45.759 and on farms. The whole time, thousands of times a day. 102 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:49.480 You know, if you just spade all of the badger 103 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:53.120 sids that you're able to catch up or whatever, or 104 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:58.519 maybe use gene therapy. You know, the technology now exists 105 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:06.959 to inject a badger with a gene that will mean 106 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:11.040 that they only have offspring of either one sex or 107 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.639 the other forevermore or not forevermore. You can actually it's 108 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:17.360 so clever. You can do it for two or three generations. 109 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:20.240 So you'd suppress a population. 110 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:23.800 That way, okay, because that's what you're after is suppression, 111 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:26.920 I take it. I mean, you know you're a dairy farmer, 112 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:30.800 so you've also got that specter of TB over you. 113 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:33.800 Well, it's terrifying, yeah, I mean, I mean, Scotland is 114 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:37.439 in theory TB three, but there is the occasional herd 115 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:41.600 breakdown when some idiot buys in some cattle from a 116 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:45.000 TB hotspot and it as a sort of flare up. 117 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.279 But they've always been able to contain it. But there 118 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:50.040 are so many badges now that if it did get loose, 119 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:52.600 it would be very very hard to Yeah. 120 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:56.399 Have you have you noticed on your own farm that 121 00:07:56.759 --> 00:07:58.920 increase in badger numbers because I have to say, I 122 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:02.920 noticed when I'm doing headero management plans, is the sheer 123 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.879 number of sets now I'm seeing because we return to 124 00:08:08.120 --> 00:08:10.959 the same place year after year after year, and we 125 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:13.959 can see that in Suffolk and there you are on 126 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:17.120 the far other end of the country and you're seeing that. 127 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:20.240 So you've seen that yourself, that there has become an 128 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:21.800 unsustainable population. 129 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:25.040 Yeah, I think there is. And I think that helped 130 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:29.240 by the fact that the fox population since we stopped hunting, 131 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:35.320 is pretty much extirpated in our part of the world 132 00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:40.600 because of the you know, the technology of the night sides, whatever, 133 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:42.240 and the fact that you know, you are allowed to 134 00:08:42.919 --> 00:08:47.559 shoot them. Yeah. I mean I think actually other generation 135 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:51.919 we might talk about needing to protect foxes in rural areas, 136 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:54.840 and I guess the badger, you know, no longer has 137 00:08:54.879 --> 00:09:01.799 that competition, and farming subsidi eyes badges quite a lot. 138 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:05.679 I mean, you know, they kind of they're in the 139 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:07.919 they're in the cattle sheds at night, sort of routling 140 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:10.879 about and finding stuff to eat. And think farming needs 141 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:13.480 to own the problem a bit more, perhaps and do 142 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:19.279 more to keep them out. And they're omnivorous, so of 143 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:22.759 course they're going to you know, they're the top, they're 144 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:25.080 the top of the food chain, but they're also they're 145 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:29.639 also eat just about anything, so you know, there's there 146 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:33.679 is no stopping them. And I just wonder, you know 147 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:35.559 how long it's going to go on for. But I 148 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:38.639 can't go on forever surely, because you know, the future 149 00:09:38.679 --> 00:09:41.720 generations are going to say, what on earth were they thinking? 150 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.159 You know, we've got all these badges and it's a 151 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:48.080 zero sum game. You know, we've we've got no hedgehogs, 152 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:51.679 no ground nesting birds. Are all familiar with the arguments. 153 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:54.960 So at some point there has to be this sort 154 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:59.399 of Emperor's clothes moment when everybody turns around and says, look, 155 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:02.320 you know what, we're going to have to change things here. 156 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:05.399 And I mean it is pretty unique in Europe. I 157 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:10.240 think that you know, it's a British problem. The Germans 158 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:15.720 still hunt badgers, I think, don't they? Yes? And I 159 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:18.679 think you know, there's, as I say, there's going to 160 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:22.440 have to be a Southern seed change. And so I'm 161 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.679 hoping that grand cry, which will be probably lots of 162 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:29.600 old people who are never We're never going to have 163 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:34.039 to worry about standing for parliament or getting a job, 164 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:39.879 or or keeping in with the governments and civil servants. 165 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:43.000 We're not we're not part of the client state, and 166 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:46.000 we can tell us as it is. And so that's 167 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:48.519 what we're going to do, and you know, and we're 168 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:52.399 going to change public opinion and bring forward that that 169 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:53.600 Emperor's closed moment. 170 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:57.240 Do you think one of the challenges is mean? I 171 00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:02.039 co remember as a child one of my childhood heroes 172 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:05.600 was a gamekeeper and him take me out badger watching. 173 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:08.799 And that was back in the days when badgers were 174 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:13.360 rare enough that going and sitting up and letting dusk 175 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:15.919 settle and watching a set come to life was a 176 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:18.759 fascinating thing and it was quite a rarity. And this 177 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:21.360 was a gamekeeper who took me out and to see this, 178 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:24.720 do you think I mean? I can been watching it 179 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.679 and I thought they're amazing, beautiful creatures, just like when 180 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.159 you watch an otter and you think what a fantastic 181 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:35.519 creature he is. They are charismatic species. When I look 182 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:38.879 at I suppose a lap wing, you have to look 183 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:42.360 quite hard until you realize their wonder and what amazing 184 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:44.639 creature they are. Do you think almost one of the 185 00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:48.080 biggest challenges is the fact that most of these ground 186 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:52.279 nesting birds are either quite dowdy, which is a defense mechanism, 187 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:54.480 say with a curly or stone curly down and our 188 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:57.200 neckle the woods, so you don't even see them really, 189 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.320 or otherwise they're a bird, you know, big new is 190 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:04.399 a bird. Do you think just that sheer charisma of 191 00:12:04.519 --> 00:12:11.519 some of these species, like badgers, like otters, ah, that 192 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.759 they're just they're just too pretty for people to get 193 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:16.120 past that. 194 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:20.440 Yeah, I suppose there is this sort of cuddliness to 195 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.360 them in the in the public mind. But I mean 196 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.120 one of the problems. I mean, actually grand nursing birds 197 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:33.639 are incredibly charismatic, but so few people now have actually 198 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:37.200 as I have, and you probably have witnessed a black 199 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:41.000 cop leg, which is you know, really one of the 200 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:45.919 wonders of nature. Or actually that because of these sort 201 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:50.879 of shifting baseline that we've had, I have experienced the 202 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:54.799 magic of lap rings displaying in the spring and curlews displaying. 203 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:58.639 So do you think that's part of your job as well, 204 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:04.200 is to introduce the public, the wider public, to farms 205 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:06.240 like yours. You know, I've never actually been up to 206 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.039 your farm, and I've known you for quite a long while. 207 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:09.399 I've never been up to your farm because if I 208 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:11.919 go north of Norfolk, my airs go pop. As you 209 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:15.840 well now, But is it something that you also think 210 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.279 that if you're going to go and explain the story 211 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:22.240 of why perhaps some of the decisions that you're after 212 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:26.399 by government quite drastic, they would see them as Do 213 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:28.279 you think it's also part of your job is to 214 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.679 go and basically be a bit of a pr agent 215 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:34.000 for the curly, for the lapping, for the golden plover, 216 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:36.720 for the for the black grouds, etc. 217 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:41.679 Yeah, I think definitely a grand cry. We've just started 218 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:44.159 now really with our sort of social media campaign which 219 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:46.679 is sort of building very slowly, but we'll be putting 220 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:48.200 in a lot of stuff up. I put one of 221 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:53.200 the first things I put up actually was I've just 222 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:56.320 been up in the Western Iles. I went to Iowa 223 00:13:56.679 --> 00:13:58.440 Yea to play golf. 224 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.559 Plain no pilgrimage for you got. 225 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:06.960 We did do a bit of a pilgrimage to set 226 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:12.919 Columbus Monastery as well. There were these corn crakes calling 227 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:16.559 in a hay meadow, and it's years since I've heard 228 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:18.279 of corn creak. Of course, now you can whip your 229 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.279 phone out and record it. And I put that recording 230 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:24.799 up there, and I said, you know, just stop and 231 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:28.200 listen to the magic of the corn crake. And of 232 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:32.600 course you know that they were everywhere on the mainland. 233 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:39.480 Now they're just on an island where, yeah, there are otters, 234 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:43.720 but and occasionally there's a mink, but the islanders deal 235 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:48.759 with that pretty quickly. But there aren't any badgers. And 236 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:52.759 I couldn't actually see many many crows either. And you know, 237 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.639 it wouldn't be wonderful if we were able to get 238 00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:59.600 corn crakes back on the mainland. But at the moment 239 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:02.679 really you're talking about, you know, the problem is a 240 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:06.320 lot of people don't know these birds because you either 241 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:09.639 have to go and go to an actual island separated 242 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:14.480 by sea or a sort of artificial island where there's 243 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:17.600 a badge of fence. Yes, And I think a lot 244 00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:20.360 of the problem, a lot of the complacency is that 245 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:24.720 some of these organizations are actually quite pleased that the 246 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:28.159 only place you can see some of these birds is 247 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:32.039 on their reserves where they've spent their millions and millions 248 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:35.279 on erecting a badge of fence. And they and they're 249 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:38.159 secretly using some of their money to do lots of 250 00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:40.480 predator control which they don't which they don't talk about. 251 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:44.120 It's very interesting actually, because I mean less the RSPB. 252 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:49.639 There's two fantastic reserves near to me. One is a 253 00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:53.559 mens Men which they use as their flagship, and as 254 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:58.080 you say, that is completely ring fenced by predator fence, 255 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:02.759 and it's in our fisial population. What is interesting is 256 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:06.279 over at Lake and heath Fen, where they recreated a 257 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:09.360 reed bed on what was actually a carrot farm. There 258 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:12.360 is not ring fenced, and they are quite overt about 259 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:17.120 the fact that predator control is part of their regime 260 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:21.279 because they have cranes there. I mean, they have a 261 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.960 very high population of bittens too. But they've managed to 262 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:32.120 find a bird which is actually more charismatic than the 263 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:35.440 foxes that they are shooting, so therefore as a tick 264 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:37.720 in the box, which is why slightly when I asked 265 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:40.559 you that question. And this might be a challenge because 266 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:43.679 our buffers like us are actually pretty useless at making 267 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.799 films of stuff. I mean, I've seen your wonderful films 268 00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:49.360 when you go and talk to camera and half the 269 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:51.840 time you've got it upside down. When you first start off, 270 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:55.200 the words are fantastic, but you have shot your feet 271 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:58.320 or something. So one of the things that we might 272 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.759 want to go and do is we almost need some 273 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:06.400 younger folk possibly who do know what this phone thing 274 00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:09.079 is in our hands, which and it's not just for 275 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:12.880 making phone calls or sending rude WhatsApp messages toward army buddies. 276 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.000 Is that we actually could do with some people going 277 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:17.599 and having some footage of as you say, because we 278 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:20.359 want to and I say we because you called me 279 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:23.160 to talk to me about this and what I thought 280 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:26.720 of it, and I thought it's an excellent idea. And 281 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:29.799 we almost need some people who are adept at filming 282 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:33.880 stuff so that we can show that majesty of a blackgrows, 283 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:37.079 like because you see it every day we're farming where 284 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.680 you do. And I think that's probably and it's and 285 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:42.880 it's a credit to you that you want more people 286 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:44.960 to be able to see that. 287 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:48.440 Yeah, well it's God. It's so difficult because you want 288 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:50.160 them to see it. Well, on the other you don't 289 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.599 want them to just hep, you know, the birds. But 290 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:56.240 I'm actually going to see if I can couple against 291 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:58.880 some money to put up some hides and encourage people 292 00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:01.680 to actually put up some hides on stilts and things. 293 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:04.440 So okay, because believe it or not, we've got an 294 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:08.960 unconfirmed sighting of it or hearing of a bitten. 295 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:11.039 Oh really with us fantastic spring. 296 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:14.079 Unfortunately it wasn't mean it was some birdo who was 297 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:15.799 at the top end of our farm where we have 298 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:18.799 got reed beds all along a burn because I've fenced 299 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:23.480 them fenced it off years ago and now they're really 300 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:28.400 quite extensive reed beds, and you might have been hearing 301 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:29.160 something else. 302 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:33.279 Moved, probably the cows in the distance. 303 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.079 I mean, but what I did see not long ago 304 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:40.480 was a white stalk Okay, yeah, in our fields that 305 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:44.319 was obviously lost trying to find nep or somewhere. 306 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:49.119 And you're on a major migratory route. And also, this 307 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:50.519 is one thing I wanted to ask you what I've 308 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:54.279 got you here. You've changed your dairying system, haven't you 309 00:18:54.359 --> 00:19:01.039 quite dramatically? Are you seeing I know you you've you've 310 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:03.519 written about how the fact that it's it's a more 311 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:06.880 sustainable method of farming for you. Have you seen an 312 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.599 upturn in wildlife since you changed that system? 313 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:17.000 Definitely? Absolutely, I mean a few years ago, I would 314 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:22.480 have agreed with the RSPB mantra about the starling being 315 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.640 a threatened farmland bird that we hardly ever seen. Now 316 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:32.759 well not nemore. Have you know? We've We've got hundreds 317 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:35.599 and thousands probably of starlings. 318 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:37.519 And why why have they come back? 319 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:40.079 It must be because of the soil health. I think 320 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:43.079 that they're finding finding stuff to eat and then all 321 00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:46.279 the little bugs and beasties and insects and the soil 322 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:50.960 and us. You used to lift a stone, which I 323 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:53.559 do fairly frequently, because we've always got a dry stone 324 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:57.559 wall on the go. And there might have been a 325 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:01.039 slug underneath it years ago, but what you usually there 326 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:04.680 would be nothing. Uh, And now you're always guaranteed to 327 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:06.960 have loads of beetles running your own. 328 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:10.720 So that's something that you would say, because you said, 329 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:16.200 we've focused understandably on predators control frequently things that we 330 00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:21.440 aren't allowed to control, either lethally or as you suggest, 331 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:28.920 using slightly more sort of less permanent means. You call 332 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.079 it the four legged stall, don't you have? I do? 333 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:34.599 I mean it started slightly tight and cheek, but it 334 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:38.680 was it was I was having a real trouble. I 335 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:43.799 mean the access officer actually done free gallery Council access 336 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:48.720 officer was being incredibly helpful. But the certain individuals within 337 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:54.119 the village that adjoins us, we're just being bloody minded 338 00:20:54.160 --> 00:21:00.720 about walking, you know, wherever they wanted. I I was 339 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:04.240 trying to foster this sort of were some lap rings 340 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:07.359 nesting in this field and the people were just walking 341 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:10.440 in it. I was trying to channel them, and the 342 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:13.319 access officer was actually agreed with me. He said, yes, 343 00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:16.400 landowner here is doing his best. He's trying to divert 344 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:19.720 a foot bath and I'm supporting ins. But they were 345 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:22.440 having nothing on it of it. So I thought, well, 346 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.000 you know, we've got to somehow get into the public 347 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:29.599 consciousness that disturbance is a problem. And so I started 348 00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:32.240 talking about a four legged stool. You know, we're all 349 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:34.359 familiar with the three legged store, but the fourth leg 350 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:38.279 is minimizing disturbance in the spring. And of course that 351 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:41.839 times with at the moment we've got guy Shrubs Soul 352 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:44.279 and his merry men you know what to right to 353 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:50.000 Rome and in England, and I've written various articles from 354 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:53.839 a telegraph pointing out the anomaly that actually Scotland is 355 00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:58.599 a country with no law of trespass where we landowners 356 00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:01.640 have been encouraged to put in paths, and people that, 357 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:07.400 with a few exceptions, have been really good about using footpaths. England, 358 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:11.480 on the other hand, is a country with the widest 359 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:15.839 network of footpaths anywhere in the world, but people weren't 360 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:18.480 used them. They want to walk off peace. 361 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.440 Do you think in Scotland? I mean it's a small nation. 362 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:26.039 You're what five point five five point eight million people, 363 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:29.799 do you think I mean, do you think that actually 364 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:32.279 that when I lived in Edinburgh there seemed to be 365 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:36.720 a slightly closer association. More people you would see would 366 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:39.200 go out hill walk. There'll be more people who would. 367 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.079 Do you think that the people of Scotland, as I 368 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:46.960 saw in Wales, they had a greater affinity and understanding 369 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:51.240 of wilder places. Were we doing Inland? 370 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:57.079 So definitely? I mean in any city in Scotland do 371 00:22:57.079 --> 00:22:58.480 you only have to look up and you can see 372 00:22:58.519 --> 00:23:00.880 the hills, you know, particularly a lot actually not so 373 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:07.160 much in Glasgow, but and the population is much closer 374 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:12.599 to the land, and I think perhaps that's why it 375 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:18.920 works to a certain extent, less people and broadly speaking, 376 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:22.200 a greater sympathy for what farmers are trying to do 377 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:25.400 in Scotland, there is sides of the border where there 378 00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:29.799 is a far more metropolitan population. 379 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:34.920 Left field question. You very bravely and quite madly stood 380 00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:41.400 in an election alongside George Galloway. What on earth is 381 00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:45.119 going wrong with the political system at the moment and 382 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:48.680 can you see any good coming out of it for 383 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:54.400 farming and the environment with all this utter bonkers that's. 384 00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:56.880 Going on in the moment, Well, it is pokers and 385 00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:00.720 I feel I really feel for by far farmers in 386 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:04.319 England because in Scotland we're actually I never thought I 387 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.559 would say this, but I mean, I mean the Nationalist 388 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:14.359 government is corrupt as we've seen and inept, but they 389 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:19.000 are because the SOP relies on winning quite a lot 390 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:25.079 of rural seats, genuinely rural seats. They probably actually have 391 00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:28.680 a slightly more sympathetic farming policy. We're still getting a 392 00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:32.119 single farm payment in Scotland, for example, which they're not 393 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:37.960 in England. But in England, Drinks, I mean, arable farmers 394 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:40.640 are just giving up and selling their farms through the 395 00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:43.920 record record numbers of farm sales, and the most particularly 396 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:46.839 arable farms and it seems to be just we've learned 397 00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:48.920 nothing from history. It's sort of back to the thirties 398 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.440 when there were whole swathes of East Anglia where there 399 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:57.119 were negative rents, there were landowners paying tenants to farm 400 00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:00.839 their land just to keep it in some of good order, 401 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:04.880