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Speaker 1: How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with

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no ads?

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get access to a private RSS feed where all the

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shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, we'll get

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you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign

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up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey

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guess what, it's dot net Rocks twenty twenty five edition.

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This would be our third episode of twenty twenty five. Franklin,

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that's Richard Campbell.

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Speaker 2: Hey you new year, go man.

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Speaker 1: I think it's going pretty well.

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Speaker 2: Time shifting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fun. We always have fun, and we always

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have fun with Rob Conry, who's coming up here very soon.

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Speaker 2: Be entirely too long, Yeah, yeah, it's been.

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Speaker 1: Entirely too long. But what's going on up in the

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Great Northwest? Richard?

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Speaker 3: Ah?

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Speaker 2: You know it's the normal winter weather, which is to say, gray,

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much gray. In fact, by the time this show is publishing,

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I will be in Mexico. Because the way to not

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lose your mind in the deep gray of the Pacific

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Northwest for months and months is they do a couple

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of weeks in the sun so.

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Speaker 1: Leave some garbage out for the bears.

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Speaker 2: I hope off the Portavarda. Yeah, you know. Bear intensity

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is actually lower here than in the city. Oh, you know,

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because they isn't that interesting because right, it's easy food.

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Right here, the food's not as easy, so they there's

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not as we've got more deer problems and they're true

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hazard in this part of the world is the elk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you hit one of those.

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Speaker 2: Elk is big, right, and and they're not there's never one.

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There's twelve, and one of them is a male with

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bad attitude. Yeah, and so yeah in the fall when

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they're down like it's we One time we turn onto

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our driveway. There's twelve bulks standing in a driveway and

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I sort of look over at her and go, you know,

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we can go to the pub. She goes, yeah, let's

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go to the pub. So I turn around. You don't

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want to mess with elk. So they're strong enough to

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flip a car our elk bigger than moose. No, moose

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are the biggest, but moose tend to be solitary. Right.

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The story goes, if you hit a deer damages your car, Yeah,

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if you hit an elk, it probably kills you because

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it goes over the hood through the windshield. You probably

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won't hit the moose. You'll go under it, right, Like,

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that's how big moose are. They're really, really quite large.

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But you only ever see one or two. But we

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only lived up here a little over a year, and

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three times now i've had a dozen elk walking by

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the highway.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, no, they're they're they're an issue.

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Speaker 1: But they could be good eating if you hit them right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And there is a hunting season up here,

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without a doubt. Do you have some friends with you know,

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venison and elk. They generally blend it with pork to

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make sausage pork fat.

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Speaker 1: I remember a story when I was a kid. I

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heard that friend of a friend or whatever hit a

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moose with the car and it went through the windshield

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and it told, you know, they were unconscious and stuff,

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and the last memory they had was looking up and

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seeing the moose running away with a luggage rack in

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its snagglers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Now that's the thing is you're going to

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wreck the car, but moose very unlikely walk away. But yeah,

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moose are so tall, Yeah, you know you'll go right

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almost right over them right right out of your legs.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's get to better know a framework. This

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is a good one.

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Speaker 2: Tell me all about it, all right.

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Speaker 1: So this again is another thing that Brian McKay, one

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of the next guys.

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Speaker 2: Kay has produced a lot of good stuff and they

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better know a framework category. Over the years he finds

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the stuff and and I wanted to show Rob this.

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Speaker 1: It's hit in mix dot com, hit and mix hiitmix

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dot com. So they call it an AI digital Audio workstation.

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So they do stems AI separations stem separation. So what

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that means is you have a song, you put it

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in there, and let's say it's bass, drums, piano, guitar,

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and singing. They can extract those individual tracks, so.

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Speaker 2: The machine learning model will actually pull apart the song

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for you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll give you a raw drum track, a raw

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bass track, a guitar track. I don't I haven't heard

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it work really well, right, you know, it's kind of

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like a novelty. But if you're going to actually do

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anything with those tracks and make them sound good, I

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don't know, but it's interesting. So you can also edit

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stems note by note so that it can turn a

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bass track let's say into notes and Rob you can

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chime in here if you want to take a look

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at the video. So if you're familiar with MIDI editing,

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it's kind of like that wow, or even you know

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the auto tune and melodine and those kinds of things

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where you can take audio notes and move them around

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and change the pitch and all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty neat. You know, I'm taking a drum lessons

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and my instructor will come in and remove a drum

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track so that I can actually play along with a song,

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which is insanely helpful. So that would be really neat

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for something like that.

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Speaker 1: And you don't hear any of the drum tracks in

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the background.

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Speaker 3: Well you can hear a little, but forgot the app

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that he uses. It strips out the drum track. But

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he'll also strip out a drum track and put a

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little section on loop so I can learn a song

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and try and play along with it.

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Speaker 1: That's really cool.

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Speaker 2: It's traditionally in remixing music, like a lot of musicians

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who are into remixing will publish stems. They'll take a

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song and say here's sixteen stems from it. Here's the

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drum trackers baseline, here's you know that sound and so forth,

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so that you can make your own thing effectively with

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their permission, Like this is kind of making stems against

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the artists will Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's right. I knew an artist, a producer who got

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his hands on the real stems for Long Train Running

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by the Doobie Brothers, like the individual tracks. There was

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no AI back then. It was in the nineties and

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or the two thousands anyway, and that was really cool.

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I was like, Wow, I would love to get my

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hands on that, just the player, and he's like, no,

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I'm sorry, I was sworn to.

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Speaker 2: Uphold the On the other hand, you happen to be

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somebody who could play each of those stems anyway, So

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just make your own.

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Speaker 1: It's true I could, but not the foals.

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Speaker 2: I've seen you do it. It's not even a speculation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the vocals and the chorus on the vocals,

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you know, the gang vocals.

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Speaker 2: That represents an impossibility to me, Carl. That represents some

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effort for you, That's all it is. You know who

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to call, In fact, you're friends with who to call.

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Speaker 1: Yeah're probably right.

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Speaker 2: You have the place to have them bring them to

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to make it like if you want the steps to

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make them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, none of that. I thought this was a

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really cool thing. And Brian thanks for showing it to me.

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He's shown us other stuff in the past.

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Speaker 2: Of course, I know. Another great find by Brian Austin.

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Speaker 1: Thanks and no learned to love it. Who's talking to

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us today?

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Speaker 2: Richard grabbed a calm on top of the show fourteen

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seventy one. Yeah, a little back into the way Back

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Machine twenty seventeen, which was a panel discussion we did

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an NDC oslo well going Serverless with one Rob Connery,

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our friend Lynn Langett and Matthias Brandewinder. Great, it was

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the early days of Servilus, right, it's twenty seventeen, so

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this is we talked a little lambda which really where

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that came from, and then of course Azua function and

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so forth. There wasn't even a conversation about containers at

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the time, the fact that under the hood this is containers,

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it's just their automated so you don't have to own them.

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And a past guests too. This is a committedly a

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comment from seven years ago. It's from Chris love Ah,

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our JavaScript friend. Yeah, he says, another great episode about

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a topic I have fallen in love with. I've been

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migrating everything to serverleist the past year, and it rocks

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not only in performance and scalability, but costs. When Orchard

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asked Rob's about static progressive web apps over serverless, I cheered,

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like my team just scored a winning touchdown. That's exactly

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what I'm doing these days. It makes me wonder if

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Richard has been spying all my daily work like I

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have that kind of time. This was a great panelisquession.

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I felt like they actually covered so many topics that

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have crossed my path in the last year. Made me

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feel much better about where I am, where I've been,

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and where I'm going with serverless. Now I know I'm

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not doing it wrong. What a confidence booster. I'm a

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little disturbed at your confidence in us there, Chris. We're

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exploring a technology, although admittedly in twenty seventeen, so what

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is that you know eight years ago?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 2: Something like that again early days of serverlests, and it

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did take a lot of stuff off the table. I've

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certainly liked it from the modular monolith perspective, that's taking

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the problematic class out of your big you know, mother

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of all class set and sticking it over in a

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serverless instant just to scale it independently or to telemetry

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it independently, like to really put a wrapper around it.

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And then that's almost an interim phase, like you could

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leave it like that, but you're not happy with it,

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and now you re engineer a bit make it more

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of a traditional micro service like this. It's to me,

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I'm always a performance tuning guy, and it's helped me

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with the performance problem. And serverless is one of those

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great tools in the pocket of let's take the trouble

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child and put it in its own can well anyway, Chris,

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I don't know if you have a copy of music Code,

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I would like to send you one. If you'd like

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a copy of music code, I write a comment on

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the website at Don Atrocks dot com. We're on the facebooks.

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We publish every show there, and if you comment there

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and I read it on the show, we'll send you

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copy music go by.

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Speaker 1: And of course there are other social medias out there

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that we you know frequent. We've been on ex Twitter

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for years of course, at Carl Franklin and at Rich Campbell.

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We're also on blue Sky at Carl Franklin dot bsky

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dot app and Rich Campbell dot bsky dot app. And

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also I'm Mastadon, I'm Carl Franklin at Techa dot social.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Rich Campbell at Masterdon dot social.

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Speaker 1: Multiple ways that you can get yourself a copy of

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music to code by just by sending us something interesting.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at the current traction around Blue Sky now,

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you know, not just the tech folks hanging out there,

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but also news conversation and political conversation so forth, Like,

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oh yeah, the gravity of a Blue Sky right now

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is interesting because I got a threads account, you know,

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and we're in the I mean in the midst We're

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still working on the geek outs for the end of

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the year, and so I often am talking with folks

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about what I'm working on the geek outs, and the

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amount of traffic I get from Blue Sky is astonishing,

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more than Twitter.

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Speaker 1: I have almost caught up to the number of followers

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that I have on maston on Blue Sky, but it's

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going faster, like Mastadon kind of leveled out, but more

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and more people. And I subscribe to a couple of

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news feeds on Blue Sky, and I kind of like it.

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Except the occasional story about wrestling, which I have no

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idea why. I guess they don't do the targeting like

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you know, the REDS and Facebook does.

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Speaker 2: It's still early days.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, give them time. The time, they'll figure out what

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you want, what you don't want well.

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Speaker 2: And also part of it was eventually gets so busy

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that they're filtering for their own benefit because it's just

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the amount of traffic they got to push right right.

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They're getting bigger, but they don't have the same crisis

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as some of these larger sites.

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Speaker 1: I do read Canadian news too, which is interesting. Everybody

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apologizing to each other.

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Speaker 2: We're having adventures at the moment, you know, about as

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interesting as Canadian politics gets.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Rob, Before we formally read your bio, I just

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wanted to mention that what we've been doing lately is

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highlighting things that happened in the year that is the

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same as the episode number of Dot in Rocks. So

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this is episode nineteen thirty three, and of course a

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lot of things are happening in this time in history,

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most importantly being the Great Depression by far the Great Depression.

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Franklin D. Roosevelt is inaugurated as thirty second President of

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the United States on March four.

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Speaker 2: They also he has an attempt on his life too.

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Oh yeah, yeah, it was an assassination and killed the

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mayor of Chicago in the incidive.

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Speaker 1: Was he the one that somebody shot him at point

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blank and he survived? At or Eddie Roosevelt the other Roosevelt,

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the other Roosevelt.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the other Roosevelt shot himself as part

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of his mourning eublutions because he was essentially indestructible, right, Yeah,

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he was fully teddy Roosevelt. Different kind of creature.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Additionally, Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor of Germany on

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January thirtieth, marking a pivotal moment in history.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a big one.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, great depression rise of Hitler.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all happening.

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Speaker 1: Stay tuned for next episode.

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Speaker 2: Let me throw one in that you'll like, okay, which

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is nineteen thirty three is the year that Alan Blumlin

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at EMI, the British recording studio, first demonstrated stereophonic sound

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using records. So that's the combination of the duel recording

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the etching tools. Like they've been working on it for

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a while, but it all came together in thirty three

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to make the first stereo record.

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Speaker 1: You know, one thing I've noticed, maybe Rob you have two.

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But since becoming more of a global citizen, you know,

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traveling a lot and meeting people outside the United States,

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I have learned that there's a lot of mythology in

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the United States around Oh, we invented everything here, and

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it's just not true.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: The funny thing is every country you go to, there's

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another person with the mythology of their country inventing every Yeah.

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I think the first automobile was invented in the UK

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before Henry for Henry Ford. Just Harry Ford made the

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mad viction line production line. Yeah, which is really important.

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He made the He made the car available to regular

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people like his whole he said. His stated goal was

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I want my factory workers to be able to buy

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a car. Yep. Before that cars were expensive playthings.

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Speaker 3: Right. One of the places I went that kind of

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brings that home to you as an American, Uh, that

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you know you're not the center of the world. Is

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if you go to Australia, they will they will correct

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you right quick. Yep.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're very sure that the center of the world

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very anyway.

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Speaker 1: It's fascinating stuff, all right. So that was Rob Connery.

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He works at Microsoft with the Visual Studio Code team,

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creating content for YouTube, as well as contributing to open

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source projects. Rob is also the author of The Impostor's Handbook,

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The Impostor's Roadmap, and A Curious Moon, which is one

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of Richard's favorite books because of the ending, which we

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will not tell you what it is right now because

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we have more respect for you than that. But you know,

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if you've been around through the whole asp Net and NBC.

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Speaker 2: Era, you know who Rob is.

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Speaker 1: He was right there when all of that stuff was happening.

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And yeah, that is not in his bio because he's

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doing more current things now.

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Speaker 3: Damn. So welcome Rob, Oh, thank you, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: We only get to have a member of Scott Guthrie's

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Ninja Army on everything. It's a rare thing. Really, Yes,

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you gotta space us out. You know, there's four faces

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on that cover back in the day, you go, Hanselman

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and Phil Hack. Phil Hack and yeah, I think you're

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the only one that doesn't look like a twelve year old.

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Speaker 1: On that picture.

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Speaker 3: I'm the only one with the most metahair.

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Speaker 1: There you go, right, No, So what are you working

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on these days?

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Speaker 2: My friend?

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Speaker 3: Well, about I want to say, eight months ago, I

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changed teams at Microsoft. I'm still I'm still in the

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advocacy stuff. They changed teams at Microsoft to go help

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the VS code team and working with Burke Holland and

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Olivia Gazardo and Rentald Doolf. And yeah we do. We

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do YouTube videos and all kinds of content, but we

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also build things, which is fun. So you know, it's funny.

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You know, friends give me a hard time about, oh,

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developer relations, what do you actually do and blah blah blah.

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And it's surprising the amount of work that goes into

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this job especially I would say about seventy five percent

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of what I do is internally focused. So you know,

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I'll test. Just the last week I banging on our

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free tier offering for co Pilot which just came out.

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Banging on that and also writing extensions and testing out

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different frameworks. It's pretty fun. I enjoy it. It's kind

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of like you're a test pilot in a way. So yeah,

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that's what I've been doing.

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Speaker 1: That's really cool.

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Speaker 2: So it's just like unshipped bits you're taking out for

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a spin and sort of seeing what you could make

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with them at the time.

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Speaker 3: Sort of yeah, they'll come up with a well, they'll

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come up with like an internal API. This is one

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of the first things I did when I joined the

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team is they had an API for extending Copilot and

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they said, well, we need to have an extension made

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and see if it actually works. And so I said, okay, great,

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and I had this idea of you know, what happens

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if Copilot became aware of your database, and so I

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made this extension that would introspect if you gave it

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a connection strain and permission. Of course, it goes into

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postgress and runs a bunch of queries to know what

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your tables and your schema looks like. And then you

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can ask Copilot to do all kinds of things, which

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one of the things I had to do was created

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an entire entity framework model set for me, which was

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pretty neat. And you know, it's amazing how thorough Copilot

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can be if you give it access to a schema

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or even just upload a SQL files and that's what

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it can do.

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Speaker 2: Well, you couldn't have a WHAMI there if you're taking

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a schema file then eventually turning it into a rag right, like,

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here's your data set to understand. You'll get it pretty

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much just by giving a connection strain off of gettings.

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Speaker 3: I like that.

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Speaker 2: It's clever.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's kind of fun. You could talk to

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your database and I kind of being me like they

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just asked me to do a couple of things. I'm like, oh, no,

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we're going to take this thing to the moon. Let's go.

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Speaker 2: We're on the path. You put me on the path.

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Now you don't think I'm going to go all the

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way down the path.

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Speaker 3: There's a scene.

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Speaker 1: I like the fact that it's smart enough to figure

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stuff out like that. You know, if you have a

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junior developer and you say, you know, hey, go check

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out the database, they're like, well, what's the schema in here?

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Have the connection string and leave me alone, right.

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Speaker 2: Get get to it. Get to it? So can we

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take this thing out for a spin? Where is it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? It's the If you go to where is it,

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it's on the VS code Extension store And if you

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look up Postcress participant and what you get with that

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is you get an at Postcress I believe, or at

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PG it might be the participant in the chat participant

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and it looks for it looks for a database connection

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string in a dot em v file, which we're going

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to be talking about in a minute, I guess. But yeah,

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it looks for an extension there. Otherwise you can just

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add it manually. So yeah, it's pretty fun.

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Speaker 2: That's cool.

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Speaker 3: There's a scene in a movie I watched on the

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plane when they're coming over to coming over to Oregon

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where I am right now, and I was watching The

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00:19:12,279 --> 00:19:16,640
First Man, you know, Damian Chazelle movie about Neil Armstrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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and there's a scene where the Russians just sent people

401
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out for the first spacewalk and you know, all the

402
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astronauts are all upset, and I think it was Deke

403
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Slayton was in the in the briefing room and he said,

404
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here's what we're going to do. We're not just going

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to go here, and he drew a line all the

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way across two chalkboards. We're going to go there. And

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he's pointing to the moon and he was great because

408
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he's like, I think this is to scale. Digging this

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up is that's kind of what I did with this extension.

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I'm like, we're not going to go there. We're going

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to go all We're gonna have some fun to this thing.

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Speaker 2: M I mean, what I appreciated about that movie too

413
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is they also show that guy very nearly died. Yeah, right,

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Like he had to puncture his spacesuit and depressurize it

415
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enough to get back through the air loof because this

416
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suit wouldn't really hate its shape without pressure around it,

417
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and it inflated the point where he couldn't get through

418
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the air well. Yeah, those guys did reckulously dangerous things.

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It's remarkable we didn't that more of them didn't die.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is viper dot Net part of that vs code thing?

422
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Speaker 3: What is that?

423
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Speaker 1: So?

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Speaker 3: So this is an interesting thing. I have a bit

425
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of a preamble, but I'll try and make it as

426
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quick as I can. So, in the previous group I

427
00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,640
was in, I was focused on doing Linux and Linux

428
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outreach and so on. So my compatriot, Aaron Whistling, and

429
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I came up with a way to test vertical applications

430
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on Azure, if that makes sense, So little applications that

431
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maybe every business needs, so we could exercise different parts

432
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of Azure and Azure's Linux offerings, and so we kind

433
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of wrapped it with his name tail when Traders, which

434
00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:51,960
is kind of our internal It's like a it's like

435
00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:54,960
you remember old north Wind and Adventure work. Yeah, so

436
00:20:55,039 --> 00:20:58,759
it's kind of the new version of that. So anyway,

437
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we just started building things and and so one of

438
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the things I realized quickly is I was doing a

439
00:21:05,039 --> 00:21:09,200
dot Net application, was configuration in dot net is weird.

440
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And I know I'm probably gonna get some heat for this,

441
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but you know, over the years, it's shifted all over

442
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the place, and like, how do you get your configuration settings? Well,

443
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you know me, this is how old I am. I'm like, well,

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do I have to put it in you know ww

445
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canfig file like our webconfig file?

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Speaker 1: You know, like how about an any file?

447
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Speaker 3: Yeah? Where does this stuff go? It's so and go

448
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and go Land. They have a project called viper which

449
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handles all of these settings for you and it'll look

450
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all over the place for you know, settings, dot json

451
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files or environment where you might have some settings there.

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And so I thought, hey, I bet I could port

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this over to dot net. And so I made this

454
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project that will look it uses i canfig and so

455
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it'll look anywhere and everywhere for settings files when it

456
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starts up, so dot env it'll look and and it

457
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try and takes. It tries to cues from the ASP

458
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dot net core, dot net environment variable as well to

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know if it's in test or production or dev, and

460
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then it'll look for a dev dot json, a product

461
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Jason and so on. Anyway, what it tries to do

462
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is simplify this entire process, and that's what it is.

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Speaker 1: And I thought the configuration process in dot net I

464
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can figure whatever when you read from it kind of

465
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did that like there are tears right. You have the

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app settings dot Jason, dot developer yes or development first,

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and then a upsettings that Jason, and then it will

468
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go out and look in you know, wherever. I guess

469
00:22:36,079 --> 00:22:39,400
if you're running in production in Azure, it'll it'll read

470
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those things, the environment variables also. But isn't there a

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a hierarchy to those things.

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Speaker 3: It's a good question. I showed this to Damian Edwards

473
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who was very quick to say, well, what are you doing? Mate? Yeah?

474
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:57,960
I said, you know, I'm just doing my thing, man,

475
00:22:58,319 --> 00:23:02,440
just doing my thing here tries I might and it's

476
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,319
been it's been long enough now that I can't remember

477
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,720
the exact problem I was having, but tries I might.

478
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:12,039
I could not reliably get environment variables read from a

479
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,759
dot een v file just in time and so and

480
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,000
so that's what you know, That's what I'm used to

481
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,279
from the node world and Ruby world, where you have

482
00:23:20,319 --> 00:23:22,759
a dot env file and everything is read in along

483
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,680
with some secrets like where are the secrets and so? Right,

484
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,200
it has a secrets thing you do dot net secrets, right,

485
00:23:28,759 --> 00:23:30,200
So I kind of just wanted to I wanted to

486
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,079
have everything kind of play together nicely. So that's what

487
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:34,799
this project is.

488
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,839
Speaker 1: Well that's cool, Yeah, nice, that's great.

489
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,559
Speaker 2: I just started to put it in place and you know,

490
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,799
work from there. Because I would also wonder how the

491
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,640
jacent this would be to something like Aspire.

492
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 3: Oh that's a good question. Yeah, I don't.

493
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,559
Speaker 2: I mean, this is more dot net center, it is

494
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,039
necessarily cloud center.

495
00:23:51,279 --> 00:23:54,279
Speaker 1: But yeah, but you are at some point reading from

496
00:23:54,559 --> 00:23:56,200
the Azure configuration, aren't you.

497
00:23:56,519 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 3: That was the next step, Like you're talking about key

498
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,359
vault maybe or are you talking about something different?

499
00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: Well, okay, app settings, app configuration variables in Azure. So

500
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,720
when you have a web app, let's say you can

501
00:24:09,839 --> 00:24:14,200
go into the you know, configuration and add variables. It's

502
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,599
just basically a key value thing. And so if those

503
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,839
have the same name as the ones that are in

504
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,440
your local config file and they're in production, they'll be

505
00:24:24,519 --> 00:24:25,079
read from that.

506
00:24:25,559 --> 00:24:29,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a while, so I have this is funny,

507
00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:32,160
going back to copilot, it's been a while. And when

508
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,000
I made this project, I had not done dot net

509
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,519
in years, and that's not for any other reason.

510
00:24:40,599 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: Then.

511
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 3: I just was doing other things and right, I'm going

512
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,240
to help myself here. One of the only reasons I

513
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:49,759
was able to get through this is I used co

514
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,440
Pilot's funny. That's the right question back in the kind

515
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,079
of the not I want to say, early days, but

516
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,440
kind of just as it was getting going, I turned

517
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,880
it on and someone had said it does quite well

518
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,319
with dot net and I was like, oh great, and

519
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,799
sure enough. I remember just sitting there going, oh my goodness,

520
00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:10,640
wooh that all right, that's how that works. And yeah,

521
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:11,519
it's pretty funny, but.

522
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: As much reminder as anything else. But at least it

523
00:25:14,079 --> 00:25:15,880
was leading you down the right path. You weren't banging

524
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,640
your head against keyboard trying to remember stuff.

525
00:25:17,759 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and where we left off was and we might

526
00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:22,440
come back to this when I say we me and

527
00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:26,160
Aaron whistling, we left off with trying to work with

528
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,359
a key volt and it did, but it was slow

529
00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:31,480
because it slid our test down only because we were

530
00:25:31,559 --> 00:25:33,599
working locally and not in the cloud. So if we're

531
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,079
in the data center it'll probably be faster.

532
00:25:35,759 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 2: But yeah, anyway, yeah, now you're hitting all the authentication

533
00:25:39,559 --> 00:25:42,720
stuff right, yes, yes, and you know you gotta be

534
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,799
careful with that. No, and it's also takes time, like

535
00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:48,440
there's no, that's all all, especially if you're doing when

536
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,599
you're doing testing, like you notice you start to really

537
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,359
notice the reaff reoff real steps that you go through

538
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,000
with an app identity exactly, stuff you wouldn't normally do,

539
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,599
like don't optimize that you only need the indication off

540
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,920
the bat to get that, you get whatever token you

541
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,440
need to work with and app that you're good.

542
00:26:04,799 --> 00:26:07,759
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well you're bringing up an interesting point too, Carl.

543
00:26:07,799 --> 00:26:11,920
You mentioned this before that when you do read configuration,

544
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,400
you're going to have you know, you're going to have

545
00:26:14,519 --> 00:26:16,920
various keys that are going to be duplicated across environments

546
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,920
and also you know, across location like development or my

547
00:26:21,039 --> 00:26:24,319
machine versus yours? Right, and how do you how do

548
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,519
you manage that? It's it's not an easy not an

549
00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:27,160
easy thing.

550
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: And you want the flexibility to be able to read

551
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,680
where appropriate, but also you don't want it reading where

552
00:26:32,839 --> 00:26:34,200
you don't want it from.

553
00:26:34,759 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 3: So to be honest, don at eight came out after

554
00:26:38,519 --> 00:26:40,519
I put this together, and I think I might have

555
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,880
upgraded it, but I don't know exactly how Configuration Manager

556
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,480
works or the configuration bits work these days in terms

557
00:26:46,519 --> 00:26:49,359
of trampling things and what it holds to be correct.

558
00:26:49,599 --> 00:26:53,319
Speaker 2: Right, So, and you mean nine, eight or nine? Like

559
00:26:53,559 --> 00:26:54,400
nine just came out?

560
00:26:54,519 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 3: Is it? Nine? Yeah? Maybe maybe that's what I meant,

561
00:26:56,559 --> 00:26:59,400
like a built you eight, Chris turn the numbers in

562
00:26:59,440 --> 00:26:59,960
my head man.

563
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 2: Well, and plus shipping dot net every year it has

564
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,839
been arduous. Yeah yeah, they've really only done it three

565
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,200
times in a row now or four times in a row.

566
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,960
Now it's four times and we're all like, yeah.

567
00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's funny. Oh, ping people on you know,

568
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,960
DEVDV or developer division, ah, ping people on the dot

569
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,960
net team or whatever and ask them some questions like

570
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,400
they'll be I'll get back to you. We're gonna ship

571
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,279
dot net we're getting ready to ship you. I'm like,

572
00:27:28,519 --> 00:27:31,119
didn't you just do that? It seems like you just

573
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:31,440
did that.

574
00:27:31,559 --> 00:27:33,079
Speaker 2: You're like, oh god, they just did.

575
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,079
Speaker 3: It's like a long runway to get up to speed

576
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,160
and get all the docs right. Wow, everyone is just

577
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:37,799
full guns.

578
00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 2: Oh there was and there was a big stink around

579
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,279
the fact that dot Net nine shipping means that dot

580
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,839
Net six, which is the long term support version, long

581
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,000
term meaning three years, it's going out of support. And

582
00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:53,160
people are like, but what are you doing to me?

583
00:27:53,319 --> 00:27:55,440
Like I don't want to move right, Like aren't you

584
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,720
going to keep doing patches? Like no, It's like, well,

585
00:27:57,839 --> 00:27:59,480
what if I need a patch? It's like there is

586
00:27:59,519 --> 00:28:05,119
a patch called at nine. Well, and it's fat. It's

587
00:28:05,279 --> 00:28:06,559
really quite and.

588
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: Easy to go from eight to nine, but not so

589
00:28:09,279 --> 00:28:11,799
easy to go from seven to nine. I'll just say

590
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,279
that because they especially in visual studio proper, because the

591
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,039
templates are completely.

592
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: When they're sinking versions of the studio with because studios

593
00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:24,200
not on an annual cadence, but every time studio gets

594
00:28:24,279 --> 00:28:27,680
updated alongside a version of dot net, you have a hit.

595
00:28:27,799 --> 00:28:29,319
And six was that, Like I think a lot of

596
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,359
people are stuck to six, because six was the one

597
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,480
where you also got a new version of studio. You

598
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:37,799
got nineteen and it was painful.

599
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: And it's those templates that change, and you can still

600
00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:45,319
use the old way of you know, having a startup

601
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,200
CS and a program CS, and now everything moved to

602
00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:50,880
program We don't have a startup CS anymore in the

603
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:56,880
templates the web templates anyway. And yeah, it's it's a challenge.

604
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: It's not a trivial refractory. It's not automated. You have

605
00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:01,880
to go through. It's it's not like it's impossible, but

606
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,519
you're going it's the worst kind of code fixes your best.

607
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,680
Nobody will notice. More likely something that used to work

608
00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:09,279
is going to break.

609
00:29:09,359 --> 00:29:11,279
Speaker 1: Eight to nine though, was a breeze for me.

610
00:29:11,599 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 2: It was I think they've settled down, but you know

611
00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:15,640
that I'm definitely talking to folks that are only going

612
00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:19,039
LTS to LTS. Yeah, they got to six and it

613
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,359
was a battle and they hadn't gone around to get

614
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,559
an eight yet, which is the next LTS. And then

615
00:29:24,759 --> 00:29:26,839
now nine came out, so six going out of support

616
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,759
and like I have to go and you know, I

617
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:31,640
do it, and then they really want to go to eight.

618
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,839
It's like really, because you know it's gonna happen to

619
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:35,160
you again.

620
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,599
Speaker 1: I wonder if you'll stop at eleven like Windows, Yeah,

621
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:40,799
everything will be dot net eleven.

622
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,799
Speaker 2: We already made a dot net nine, which they did

623
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,079
not do for Windows for very various reasons. But I

624
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,000
don't know how many organizations are actually on the annual

625
00:29:50,119 --> 00:29:53,400
update cadence. I've talked to far more that are only

626
00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:58,119
lts like every other man. The perfin nine is just great.

627
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,599
It's a shocker. Yeah, Chin, switch the framework and your

628
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,039
app goes faster. It's amazing.

629
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: Blazer server applications are so much better because you don't

630
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,680
get the what did I call it, the semi opaque

631
00:30:09,839 --> 00:30:10,640
veil of death?

632
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: Yes, it was a blue screen of death, and it

633
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,440
was a white screen of death that was a yellow

634
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:16,440
opaque veil of death.

635
00:30:16,599 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. One of the things that that I was building

636
00:30:20,039 --> 00:30:23,160
with Aeron in the Tailwind project was I wanted to

637
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,039
make a mail list server that worked with markdown files nice.

638
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,079
And we had a goal of sending out twenty five

639
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,279
thousand emails and I think my I set the goal

640
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,720
for under ten seconds, which you thought, Okay, you know

641
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,680
this has obviously got some networking issues around it and

642
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,119
so on. But you know, isn't there some kind of

643
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,519
cool threading thing? And you know, I talked to I

644
00:30:45,599 --> 00:30:47,359
talked to a few people and they're like, oh, just

645
00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:49,519
use the oh no, that was deprecated in that. Anyway,

646
00:30:49,759 --> 00:30:52,759
there's a lot of confusion, confusion about how to do this, right.

647
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,440
I had no idea, and so I just I I

648
00:30:56,519 --> 00:30:58,559
still like an ad for copilot, but.

649
00:30:59,039 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, whate knows. I was going to say that,

650
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:01,119
you know what it knows?

651
00:31:01,319 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I put it in and I can't

652
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,519
remember the exact code that it wrote. But anyway, what

653
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,279
it did is it spawned what twenty five thousand different

654
00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:14,279
threads I suppose or something. It spawned a bunch. Actually

655
00:31:14,319 --> 00:31:15,799
I shouldn't say that because I don't know how the

656
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,319
internal workings are. And it sent out twenty five thousand

657
00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:21,359
emails I want to say, in two and a half seconds,

658
00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:24,799
and whoa, yeah, no doubt. And so when you say

659
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,519
sent out, what do you mean there is a project?

660
00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:32,000
There's a project. I can't remember it's oh, I'll come

661
00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:33,759
up with the name. But it's a local website that

662
00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:36,839
you run, and so you can actually use it as

663
00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:40,920
an endpoint like a mail service and you can actually

664
00:31:41,119 --> 00:31:43,359
you can mimic the network settings on it, so I

665
00:31:43,519 --> 00:31:45,759
you know, I tuned it to I think is one

666
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:50,599
second something like that delay for receipt, and I just

667
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,200
my jaw hit the floor. I was like, you've got

668
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:53,839
to be kidding me.

669
00:31:54,759 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: Now I know where all that spam came from.

670
00:31:57,599 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: Connery.

671
00:31:58,119 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty funny though, Yeah, it's pretty funny. I

672
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,480
should go, you know, I'm going to go look for

673
00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:05,079
this really quickly, tell you what it is.

674
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: It's a good time to take a break then yeah, yeah,

675
00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:10,359
we'll be right back after these very important messages. And uh,

676
00:32:10,599 --> 00:32:12,519
of course, as a reminder, if you don't want to

677
00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:17,039
hear these ads mid break or pre impost, you can

678
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,519
become a patron for five bucks a month. Go to

679
00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:22,960
Patreon dot dot netroocks dot com and you'll get an

680
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,400
ad free RSS feed for the podcast. All right, we'll

681
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,400
be right back. Did you know there's a dot net

682
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:35,759
on aws community. Follow the social media blogs, YouTube influencers

683
00:32:35,839 --> 00:32:39,559
and open source projects and add your own voice. Get

684
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,319
plugged into the dot net on aws community at aws

685
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:50,839
dot Amazon dot com, slash dot net and we're back.

686
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,200
It's dot NetRocks I'm Carl Franklin. That's my friend Richard Hey,

687
00:32:54,599 --> 00:32:58,119
Richard Campbell, and as our good friend Rob Connery. Hello,

688
00:32:58,359 --> 00:33:02,319
And he was about to look up some mail server

689
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:04,839
web thing that you use.

690
00:33:05,119 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's called mail pit. I found it, thankfully.

691
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,119
It's called mail pit. You can actually install this as

692
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,720
a doctor container and it just runs and you have

693
00:33:15,759 --> 00:33:18,519
an API and you send mail off to it, and

694
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,799
it looks like it's a go binary. I just used

695
00:33:21,799 --> 00:33:24,400
Docker to run this thing and put it on a

696
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,319
port and just said okay, I'm sending email to you.

697
00:33:28,079 --> 00:33:28,920
And there they were.

698
00:33:29,119 --> 00:33:32,839
Speaker 1: So who did you actually send these twenty five thousand

699
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:33,559
emails too?

700
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,799
Speaker 3: It was like one test at test dot com, two

701
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,160
test at test dot com. So it you tell it

702
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,759
what domains to accept and what's to reject, and so

703
00:33:41,839 --> 00:33:44,839
it's a full testing application that you can use and

704
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:45,559
tune as you need.

705
00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: Oh so they weren't real people.

706
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 3: They are real emails, but not real people endpoints. No,

707
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,279
it just goes to this application.

708
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: But you could you could if you wanted to take

709
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,960
a mail client, a pop three client or whatever imap

710
00:33:58,559 --> 00:34:00,279
and go retrieve them right.

711
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 3: Well, so when you run this, it gives you a

712
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,279
webinar face that looks like Gmail or something like that,

713
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,559
so you can actually see the male landing coming in.

714
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:09,079
I like that. It's great.

715
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: Two and a half seconds later, then you go back

716
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,599
and you go and look and you look like you've

717
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:14,800
got a huge spew of you.

718
00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 3: To be kidding me. It's just one of those moments

719
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,639
where you is there a delete a whole button? You know,

720
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,159
It's like the moments that when you're when you love

721
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,920
being a programmer, when you love being a jump out

722
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,559
of your chair and you're like, oh my god, and

723
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:31,320
you know, someone runs in the room like okay, like

724
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:32,920
you know, you wouldn't believe it, and you start to

725
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,840
explain it and they're like, well, that's great for you, man.

726
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: I'm really glad you're happy you see me exact Yeah, Richard,

727
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,000
you've got to tell the SMS story again for those

728
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:43,199
Oh no, this is a great one.

729
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 2: That was a but that's this is in the nineties, right,

730
00:34:46,559 --> 00:34:50,519
This is the Nokia Candy Bar phone era, and the

731
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,880
local telco opened up an API, they didn't call it

732
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,320
that back then. It so that we could send a

733
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,639
text message. So I wrote a little tool from monitoring

734
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,519
the set of service that were responsible for to send

735
00:35:02,599 --> 00:35:05,679
me a text message if they went down oddly enough,

736
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,000
it had a bug. And this is back when a

737
00:35:08,079 --> 00:35:09,920
text message is literally a prompt on your phone and

738
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,800
you had to hit your little buttons on the l

739
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,960
and not on the screen, but it actually buttons to

740
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,760
retrieve the text message, and it would show you the

741
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,920
text message. So I, oh, there is delete and it

742
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,199
goes text message. Go open it up delete. How many

743
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,039
are they? So after doing a few, I go and

744
00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:30,079
look at the code, I'm like, oh, no, there are

745
00:35:30,159 --> 00:35:32,719
thirty two, seven hundred and sixty seven of these. Oh,

746
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,480
and I have to delete them one at a time.

747
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: Which just happens to be the upper range of short.

748
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,559
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, everybody knows what number this is is due

749
00:35:41,559 --> 00:35:44,880
to the fifteenth right. So I go call the text

750
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,880
support for that gateway I think it was called at

751
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,559
the time, and the Tier one guy has no idea

752
00:35:49,639 --> 00:35:52,480
what I'm saying, right, and so, but I confuse him

753
00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:53,840
enough that he goes, let me pass you up, and

754
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,880
he passes me the Tier two guy. And I start

755
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,480
trying to explain this to the Tier two guy for

756
00:35:57,559 --> 00:36:00,519
a bit and he's like, I don't know, but you

757
00:36:00,559 --> 00:36:02,360
know it takes a little while because he's supposed to

758
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:03,960
will solve this that he does know what to do.

759
00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:07,079
Finally he passes me to tier three, and now I'm

760
00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:09,320
like in the knock and in the phone rings and

761
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,440
it's like so so I was like, Hi, my name's

762
00:36:11,519 --> 00:36:14,480
Ridge Campbell, and I give the phone number.

763
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 4: He goes, oh, it's you. They were all looking at

764
00:36:21,119 --> 00:36:26,280
this explosion. We've been waiting for your cab. It's like, okay,

765
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,800
I'm going to lead these on the other end. You're

766
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,760
gonna have to delete the one that's already got your

767
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,320
phone and then don't do that again.

768
00:36:34,559 --> 00:36:36,599
Speaker 1: I did dumb things like that too when I was,

769
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:38,159
you know, just starting.

770
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 2: Out before the era of rate limitters, right, like there

771
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:41,440
should have been a rate limit on that.

772
00:36:42,159 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: I remember. I was trying to do like remote execution

773
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,239
of code. And this wasn't for hacking or anything. This

774
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,519
was just to see if I could do it in

775
00:36:53,679 --> 00:36:56,159
VB And I called up my friend and I said, hey,

776
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,559
run this little app and just leave it there. He goes, Okay,

777
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,519
what it was supposed to do is like pull up nopad,

778
00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:06,719
but I didn't. Actually, when it got the signal, it

779
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,320
pulled up nopad and then kept going through the loop

780
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,719
and pulling up no pad and he's.

781
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,039
Speaker 2: Sc filled with thousands of note pads. He's like, what

782
00:37:17,199 --> 00:37:22,199
did you do? I said, I was sorry, man, I

783
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:23,320
do know how to stop it.

784
00:37:23,599 --> 00:37:25,159
Speaker 1: It's like VB six or something.

785
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 3: I might have told you this before, but this is

786
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,559
back in nineteen ninety eight and I was using visual

787
00:37:29,599 --> 00:37:33,519
Interdev and I was trying to explain what server extensions were,

788
00:37:34,079 --> 00:37:36,559
you know, on anti server. And we had a new

789
00:37:36,599 --> 00:37:39,280
guy join us at this consultancy, and I said, yeah,

790
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,559
you can lock onto any site, like, look if I

791
00:37:41,599 --> 00:37:43,760
have a domain. And I just happened to be looking

792
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,880
at Vertigo's website, which is where Jeff Atwood used to

793
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,039
work a long, long time ago and anyway says before

794
00:37:50,079 --> 00:37:52,039
his time. But I said, look, what if we could

795
00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:54,400
lock onto their site? And sure enough I was able

796
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,079
to open up vertigo dot com in visual Interdev and

797
00:37:58,159 --> 00:38:00,079
I said, we'll hold on a second now, and I

798
00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:02,880
went and I just kind of I edited their homepage

799
00:38:03,159 --> 00:38:04,760
and I forgot what it said, but I just changed

800
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,199
a few words and I'm like, uh, and I'm looking

801
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:08,599
at the guy at the new high I'm like, Okay,

802
00:38:08,639 --> 00:38:10,360
I didn't mean to do that in the phone ring

803
00:38:11,119 --> 00:38:13,679
and it was Scott Stanfield, right, I think it was

804
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,159
Scott Stanfield as somebody and they're like, what are you

805
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,920
doing on our website? Like, I'm sorry, I didn't do I'm.

806
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,679
Speaker 2: Sorry, sir, I shouldn't be able to do this.

807
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, just some small configuration issue that they missed.

808
00:38:27,039 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 2: So now they have the Secure Future initiative because they're

809
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,239
still having those problems are just still a bit more complicated. Yeah,

810
00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:39,239
it's funny how often you end up poking under the

811
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,039
hood a little bit on that sort of stuff and going, oh,

812
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,719
you know, the underbelly is soft and squishy, right. Yeah.

813
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: So there was a story that we did in security

814
00:38:50,519 --> 00:38:55,920
this week. This was episode one sixty seven. It was

815
00:38:56,039 --> 00:39:01,840
about a dot net exploit. It was let me look

816
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,639
at it. I think it was this devious new malware

817
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:12,400
technique looks to hijack Windows itself to avoid detection and

818
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,159
I'll publish a link to it. But yeah, there was.

819
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,039
It was something in the dot net framework.

820
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 2: I don't think when sixty seven is published yet, but

821
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:20,760
it will be by the time this shows out.

822
00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

823
00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:23,519
Speaker 1: No, no, it's not published yet, but it will be

824
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,320
by this time. In report published on the Akami blog

825
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,679
earlier this week, it was said that starting with Windows XP,

826
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,079
the os introduced a feature called UI Automation as part

827
00:39:36,159 --> 00:39:39,079
of the dot Net Framework, and this feature is designed

828
00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:43,119
to provide programmatic access to user interface elements, enabling assistive

829
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,480
tech technologies like screen readers to interact with applications and

830
00:39:47,519 --> 00:39:52,079
help users with disabilities. It also supports automated testing scenarios

831
00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:55,320
by allowing developers to manipulate and retrieve information from UI

832
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,719
components programmatically. And since we started security this week, this

833
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,280
is the first thing that involved the dot Net framework

834
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,280
at all. So it's just part of Windows. You can

835
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,519
turn it off, but I think it's on by default,

836
00:40:08,599 --> 00:40:14,000
which is bad. So it's a way to abuse accessibility

837
00:40:14,039 --> 00:40:18,559
features on Windows to hide malware. It slips below the

838
00:40:19,079 --> 00:40:22,360
radar and I don't know that there's a patch for it.

839
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 2: Well, and it's been around for twenty years or that

840
00:40:25,519 --> 00:40:29,440
vulnerability has obviously, Yeah, part of XP. It's a long time.

841
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, So what else is interesting in your life these days? Rob?

842
00:40:34,039 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's funny. We are we are full

843
00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:41,119
guns right now on the co pilot free stuff, and

844
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,360
it's funny. We we have been you know, not going

845
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,320
to too many conferences, but now we're able to kind

846
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,519
of travel a little bit more these days. So I'm

847
00:40:50,559 --> 00:40:51,480
going to NDC London.

848
00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:53,199
Speaker 2: Yay, me too. Yeah.

849
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 3: We had NDC London this year, which will be fun.

850
00:40:56,079 --> 00:40:59,280
And I'm doing all like I do videos, I do

851
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,239
you two a month on the VSCO YouTube channel, So

852
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:05,960
I got a couple of those coming out, which would

853
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:07,880
be fun. And I'm really enjoying doing that.

854
00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 2: I mean, and I presume that everybody's listing here knows that.

855
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,760
In December, and we basically announced that inside of all editors,

856
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,760
not just visuals Studio Code, but all editors get hub

857
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:19,639
Copilot is free.

858
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that was a huge when they said it. Internally,

859
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,199
it was just like, oh my god, this is great.

860
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,400
I was so excited. I was so so happy about it,

861
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,360
you know, just because we did a live stream with

862
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,159
Jason Langsdorff and he brought up the point that, you know,

863
00:41:34,199 --> 00:41:36,639
there's people out there that could really really benefit from

864
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,599
co pilot, but ten dollars a month outside the you know,

865
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,280
North America US is really expensive. I mean even in Canada.

866
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:45,719
You guys are you know hard up up there.

867
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,559
Speaker 2: That's like a it's not half a gallon of Yeah.

868
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,159
Speaker 3: Anyway, this really helps people. And of course, you know,

869
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,239
and I just have to make it clear, I don't

870
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,599
speak for Microsoft. This is just me speaking right now,

871
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,360
so don't get in trouble. But you know, there's a

872
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,119
lot of people who you know, have pushed back, and

873
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,920
I think that's fine. I think one of the main

874
00:42:08,039 --> 00:42:12,239
points that that I really react to is when people say, oh, Copilot,

875
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,960
you know, is going to help junior devs write you know,

876
00:42:15,079 --> 00:42:17,840
really bad code and so great, now you're enabling that.

877
00:42:18,639 --> 00:42:20,639
And you know, I was, I was thinking about this yesterday.

878
00:42:20,679 --> 00:42:23,199
I'm like, where is this fear of junior developers coming from?

879
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,440
You know, everyone's afraid for them. They're afraid for them,

880
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:27,679
and they're afraid of them.

881
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,519
Speaker 2: It's like like like they weren't already writing bad code

882
00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:31,760
in the first place, Like come.

883
00:42:31,639 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 1: On, you know, you know the compiler will whack them

884
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:36,519
back into reality, and.

885
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 2: So well, how do you expect them to get better?

886
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,000
And it's ready to put that out there. And the

887
00:42:41,119 --> 00:42:43,079
thing about it is what code reviews are, that's right.

888
00:42:43,159 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 3: And I was just about to say that, you know,

889
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,239
one of the features that that Copilot has now is

890
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:49,679
the ability to do a code review.

891
00:42:50,199 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 2: Before you push and you're applying here, the opposite may

892
00:42:53,039 --> 00:42:54,760
be true that their code will actually get better.

893
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, it gets It's so I did a

894
00:42:57,159 --> 00:43:01,000
code review because we're doing some internal project that was

895
00:43:01,039 --> 00:43:03,760
going along with a demo. Doesn't really matter, but I

896
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,199
did a code review before I pushed it. And I

897
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,599
was like, oh my goodness, I completely forgot about this.

898
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,719
You know, it was like some internal security thing that

899
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,159
we had to make sure that you know, was not set.

900
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,239
And we also made sure we had to have accessibility

901
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:19,920
and other settings. And I'm like, oh my goodness, I

902
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,400
totally forgot. So the reason why I think that's huge

903
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,880
is for managers out there and the senior people that

904
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,000
have to do the code reviews, this is one less

905
00:43:27,079 --> 00:43:30,320
cycle for you, and you shorten these review periods. And

906
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,159
I think it's I don't know, I think a top

907
00:43:32,199 --> 00:43:35,360
to bottom is great. And for the other thing, I've

908
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,440
told my friends too that a lot of them, I

909
00:43:37,519 --> 00:43:39,280
mean some of them are really vocal with me, like

910
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,400
do not like Copilot at all? And yeah, and I said, well,

911
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,519
you know, just think of it this way. It's shortening

912
00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:48,920
the loop from Google to stack overflowed from copy paste.

913
00:43:49,599 --> 00:43:52,159
It's just shortening that loop. There's nothing else happening here.

914
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:57,119
Speaker 2: And I mean I also you can debate the quality

915
00:43:57,199 --> 00:43:59,920
of the coded fish fetches. I've had good experiences, I

916
00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:02,519
had bad experience and so forth. You can't debate it

917
00:44:02,599 --> 00:44:04,800
writes a better pullar re quest than you do every

918
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,039
time by a mile, appropriately Like it's its ability to

919
00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:12,119
actually have a record of everything you changed and write

920
00:44:12,199 --> 00:44:14,679
a decent summary of it. You would never go to

921
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,400
its legness. You know that that's just a now I'm

922
00:44:18,679 --> 00:44:21,400
not optional, Like you can see the difference. I see

923
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,760
it in a set of developers working where you can

924
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,320
see who's using is gotten familiar with get hub copilot

925
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,480
enough that they're right in their pr summaries with the

926
00:44:30,599 --> 00:44:32,480
tool because they're great.

927
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,119
Speaker 3: Well, that's you know, the talk I'm going to give it.

928
00:44:35,199 --> 00:44:37,639
NDC is going to be exactly this. I don't quite

929
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,639
know how many, probably five demos in there, but let's

930
00:44:40,679 --> 00:44:43,519
call it five. You know, five ways it'll actually improve

931
00:44:43,599 --> 00:44:45,760
your day, you know, or make your make your life

932
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,239
a little happier, like actual hands on stuff. And you

933
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,119
know everyone's got their copilot demo. But it's kind of funny,

934
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,119
like what are what are the people in the trenches

935
00:44:55,159 --> 00:44:56,639
that are writing code every day? What do they use

936
00:44:56,679 --> 00:44:57,719
it for? How are they using it?

937
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 2: In the summarizer and the right like exactly what you

938
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,360
said with the code review, it's like, oh, I forgot right.

939
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,760
The tools reliable at going through the checklist and valid yep,

940
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:08,199
that's right.

941
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 3: Yep. And change log too. A lot of people demand

942
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,000
a changelog, and you can make a change log. You

943
00:45:14,119 --> 00:45:17,519
get commits, which is pretty fun. Yeah.

944
00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:20,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then notice all the things we're the most

945
00:45:20,559 --> 00:45:24,639
excited about are not the find this code part right, Like,

946
00:45:25,519 --> 00:45:29,079
so it also has some capability of parsing code, like

947
00:45:29,199 --> 00:45:30,199
what does this code do?

948
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 3: You know?

949
00:45:32,039 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 2: Not to steal carls under here, but the whole this

950
00:45:34,039 --> 00:45:36,639
is a link expression, show me in loops. This is

951
00:45:36,639 --> 00:45:38,760
a set of loops, show me as a linking expression.

952
00:45:39,559 --> 00:45:41,320
All of that is pretty slight. Yeah, I think it's

953
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:42,440
pretty neat. Yeah.

954
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: I use that exploding link thing to write comments for

955
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,280
people who don't understand link that might be looking at

956
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,480
the code and trying to figure out what it does.

957
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,119
Speaker 2: It's such a great idea, right to have it exploded

958
00:45:55,119 --> 00:45:56,719
out as a loop and then make that a block

959
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,880
comment and then make it back into links.

960
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 3: This is what this Actually, it's pretty neat because you

961
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,320
don't know. I remember the pushback against link way back

962
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,920
in the day showing you hold him because people didn't

963
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,480
know is going under the covers, and you know, what's

964
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,320
what's the big go on this? I don't know who cares.

965
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,960
The people at Microsoft are probably smarter than you. But

966
00:46:17,039 --> 00:46:19,159
that was the feeling back then. I'm not trying to

967
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,000
say that declaratively, but that was a feeling back then,

968
00:46:22,119 --> 00:46:23,559
is you could have faith and anders you know, you

969
00:46:23,599 --> 00:46:24,679
could have faith in these people.

970
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 2: No, you do it all the time when you call

971
00:46:26,519 --> 00:46:29,119
a cryptographic library or you know, any of these things

972
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,599
like I'm sorry you don't trust APIs do you know

973
00:46:31,679 --> 00:46:35,599
what you do for a living? That's right, that's right,

974
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,880
you know, And if I mean, this show has done

975
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:43,199
the debate about rms as they emerge, you know, and ascended,

976
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,320
descended and so forth. But you know, I think the

977
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,360
case is pretty clear now that for eighty percent of

978
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,280
the cases in most applications, what the RM spout out

979
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,119
is efficient, and these days there are good enough ways

980
00:46:54,199 --> 00:46:56,840
to deal with the other twenty without having to abandon

981
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:57,320
an RM.

982
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,119
Speaker 3: That's right. And you know, if anybody out there is

983
00:47:00,199 --> 00:47:03,159
my history, you know how much I have one hate

984
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:07,079
or MS and two have always decided to make my own,

985
00:47:07,159 --> 00:47:09,480
which is a weird kind of split brain kind of deal.

986
00:47:09,559 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's it's sound kind of crazy. Next you'll

987
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,320
be writing your own garbage collector you know, little nuts.

988
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,239
But I think in the last two years I was

989
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,519
telling again Erin and I worked together very well that

990
00:47:19,639 --> 00:47:22,679
I've finally just let go my ORM problem and just

991
00:47:23,199 --> 00:47:24,519
now I'm using them all the time.

992
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: And how I learned to stop working trust the R

993
00:47:28,559 --> 00:47:30,920
you know, the big trust, the Trust Entity framework.

994
00:47:31,079 --> 00:47:34,760
Speaker 3: The big thing for me has been that I need

995
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,199
to have sequel light support for testing for actions, because

996
00:47:39,519 --> 00:47:42,079
just you you could have a postcrist container spin up

997
00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:43,760
to run your test, but that just delays things a

998
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,159
little bit too long, whereas we just do sequal light

999
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,119
in memory and boom it'll run.

1000
00:47:49,199 --> 00:47:51,639
Speaker 1: And do you use dapper d A.

1001
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,039
Speaker 3: P P E R. That's what I used for the

1002
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,679
male thing I was telling you about. I used Dapper.

1003
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 1: I like it because it's essentially ado dot net without

1004
00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:03,000
having to write lots of code to handle parameters and

1005
00:48:03,159 --> 00:48:04,320
so good. It just does it.

1006
00:48:04,679 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, Sam, Sam, I think is Sam Saffron that that

1007
00:48:08,119 --> 00:48:08,760
created that? Right?

1008
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

1009
00:48:11,679 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know a funny story behind that. I think

1010
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,440
did we do Oh no, we did a handsle minutes

1011
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,239
on that. I don't think we talked to you guys.

1012
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:24,119
But back when, so Jeff Atwood when he made stack

1013
00:48:24,159 --> 00:48:28,199
overflow used linked to seql and yah, everyone loved. Link

1014
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,639
to seql is awesome. But it started as the site grew,

1015
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:33,320
it started to slow down a bit, and so they

1016
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,760
were looking at alternatives and one of the ones they

1017
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,559
looked at was one that I made called Massive, which

1018
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,960
was dubbed a micro orm, and so it didn't quite

1019
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,920
fit what they needed because they needed some perft weeks.

1020
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,159
And so Sam went in there and kind of took

1021
00:48:46,199 --> 00:48:48,400
some inspiration and went off and did his own thing,

1022
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,280
made it fast as heck, and that's where that's where

1023
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:52,000
dapper started.

1024
00:48:52,159 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 1: And dapper contrib is another project that works with Dapper

1025
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,800
that gives you all of the crud things already done,

1026
00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:05,039
you know, all the extensions to the to the sequel connection,

1027
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:07,000
insert update.

1028
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 2: Delete, different and totally different from da PR, which is

1029
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,880
also pronounced daffern is an Azure tool. Don't mix these up.

1030
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,000
You'll be sad. Making sure I grab all these links

1031
00:49:19,039 --> 00:49:21,119
for Dapper and African tradees that folks can take. If

1032
00:49:21,159 --> 00:49:22,760
you haven't taken these out for a spin, you need

1033
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,360
to look at them. But I bring up the ORM

1034
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,840
story because I think Copilot's in the place that ORMs.

1035
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,960
We're back in the day where some folks are having success,

1036
00:49:32,079 --> 00:49:34,960
some folks are not. There are concerns. The product is

1037
00:49:35,039 --> 00:49:40,400
in motion and it's too early to draw hard lines

1038
00:49:41,079 --> 00:49:43,920
because you don't know yet. Don't you don't expect to

1039
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,119
do everything right. It won't you know, find the value

1040
00:49:47,119 --> 00:49:49,840
where the value is and expected to change. I noticed

1041
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,719
there are limits on the free platform, like there is

1042
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,239
a reason to buy the pro plan. You're allowed two

1043
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,239
thousand co completions a month, which is you know, and

1044
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,280
they worked out as eighty per working day. But you're

1045
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,199
figuring out five week like you're gonna be okay, it'll

1046
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:04,599
be fine.

1047
00:50:04,679 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's funny in the blog post. Are

1048
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,360
you reading Brooks blog post? Yes? Yeah, I helped him

1049
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:15,199
write that, and it's funny. I I that's one of

1050
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,440
my contributions. I said, you know, maybe break it down

1051
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,280
by day so people could see eighty by day. And

1052
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,440
I just kind of I didn't do the exact math

1053
00:50:21,519 --> 00:50:23,400
on that because you know, how do you know how

1054
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,639
long a day is and people been working?

1055
00:50:25,679 --> 00:50:28,159
Speaker 2: But anyway, yeah, we're talking about software days. This is

1056
00:50:28,199 --> 00:50:29,800
a relative ist determent the best of.

1057
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,079
Speaker 3: Times, that's right. So I just picked a number, I said, eighty.

1058
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 2: Nice. Well he's like, yeah, how many weeks off do

1059
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,679
you presume you work a five day day a week,

1060
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,679
and how many weeks do you get off? Like, you

1061
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,800
can play with that number for a while, right, it

1062
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:49,320
might be forty eight or fifty, you know, fifty's about right.

1063
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:49,599
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1064
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,119
Speaker 1: Well, I think unless you have anything else you want

1065
00:50:53,119 --> 00:50:56,239
to talk about, I think we're bout done here. No. Oh,

1066
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:57,880
I did want to mention you mentioned you're going to

1067
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,079
be at NDC. I just got word that I was

1068
00:51:01,159 --> 00:51:04,039
accepted as a speaker for dev some in June June

1069
00:51:04,079 --> 00:51:08,280
twelfth and thirteenth, and Blazer talked there on Gotcha's and

1070
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,159
also a workshop no Fun. So maybe i'll see you there.

1071
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: I guess I'm going to and we'll record some shows

1072
00:51:14,519 --> 00:51:15,719
in person, which we haven't done.

1073
00:51:15,559 --> 00:51:18,039
Speaker 1: In a lot, and we have that. Yeah, that would

1074
00:51:18,079 --> 00:51:18,400
be great.

1075
00:51:18,519 --> 00:51:20,760
Speaker 3: Is that Tibby's conference?

1076
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, yeah.

1077
00:51:22,599 --> 00:51:24,519
Speaker 3: I got accepted to speak there a couple of years

1078
00:51:24,519 --> 00:51:27,239
ago and I couldn't. I had to back out, and

1079
00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:29,079
so he invited me the next year. He said, we

1080
00:51:29,119 --> 00:51:30,719
really want you to come and do this talk, and

1081
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,039
so it'd be fun to go. I really would love to.

1082
00:51:34,119 --> 00:51:36,840
I've met him once. We had dinner with Key Scott

1083
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,719
Allen of all people, one of the MVP summits, and

1084
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,599
it was he was just a wonderful person.

1085
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:45,519
Speaker 2: So yeah, Tibby's good fun and he's there's a reason

1086
00:51:45,599 --> 00:51:48,960
he's a conference organizer type because he gets you know,

1087
00:51:49,039 --> 00:51:50,639
he's also been a speaker and so forth, so he

1088
00:51:50,679 --> 00:51:53,079
does understand that that sort of thing. Knows other people do.

1089
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:54,760
So yeah, I know I'm already committed to dev some

1090
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:56,159
just double check.

1091
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: And June is a great time to be in Stockholm

1092
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,960
as opposed to January or February.

1093
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,760
Speaker 2: February going to be there in February two because you know,

1094
00:52:05,599 --> 00:52:06,159
I'm an idiot.

1095
00:52:06,159 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 3: Stockholm's amusing city.

1096
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:07,599
Speaker 2: I love it.

1097
00:52:08,159 --> 00:52:11,159
Speaker 1: I love Stockholm. So I'll see that. And Richard, do

1098
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:13,239
you have anything to announce in terms of dates for

1099
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:14,199
dev intersection.

1100
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:17,039
Speaker 2: No, we're working hard to trying to figure out what

1101
00:52:17,119 --> 00:52:19,119
exactly what we're going to do in twenty twenty five,

1102
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,880
but there are many forces at work, so to speak.

1103
00:52:23,159 --> 00:52:25,519
So okay, the moment i'd be allowed to say, I

1104
00:52:25,599 --> 00:52:30,119
will say, okay, cool, we're not quite there yet. So

1105
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,880
for better or worse, it's an interesting time, and you know,

1106
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,639
we're having a good time sure for better or worse.

1107
00:52:35,679 --> 00:52:37,920
Besides all the conferences you all know I go to,

1108
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,039
we are also involved in like the Fabric conference. So

1109
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,440
right now the Fabric Conference is absorbing a lot of

1110
00:52:43,599 --> 00:52:47,320
energy because data analytics is big man, Like, it's really

1111
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,360
been crazy. So that's at the end of March and

1112
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,719
we're expending eight thousand people, Like, wow, it's it's a

1113
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,159
big What what Microsoft's figured out with Fabric is really

1114
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,519
doing analyt It's in the cloud, so don't have to

1115
00:53:02,599 --> 00:53:05,239
move your data around. It's all connector driven. There's a

1116
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,199
lot of smart caching going on. The mL tools are

1117
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,719
just integrated, so it's you know, your analysis is a

1118
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,760
lot simpler, Like it's insanely powerful stuff. And now they've

1119
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,280
added in streaming components for real time intelligence, like it's

1120
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,199
just getting richer and richer, and so people just descend

1121
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,400
on this. This show we did, the one we did

1122
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,280
in the spring in twenty twenty four was sold out

1123
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:31,440
at over four thousand people. So we've got the double

1124
00:53:31,559 --> 00:53:33,639
venue now like it's all one space, but it's huge

1125
00:53:34,119 --> 00:53:35,760
to be able to live to go up to eight thousand,

1126
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,320
so and we expected this all very cool.

1127
00:53:38,559 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 1: All right, guys, that's it, Rob. Thanks, it's been great.

1128
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:42,760
It's always great talking.

1129
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:43,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, you too.

1130
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:44,280
Speaker 3: It's good to see you guys again.

1131
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: Thank you here, Thanks Ben, and we'll talk to you

1132
00:53:47,480 --> 00:54:10,639
next time on dot that rocks. Dot net Rocks is

1133
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,360
brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios,

1134
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:18,760
a full service audio, video and post production facility located

1135
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,719
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1136
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:26,880
cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at

1137
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:28,800
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1138
00:54:29,039 --> 00:54:33,800
S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments,

1139
00:54:34,159 --> 00:54:36,679
and access to the full archives going back to show

1140
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,480
number one, recorded in September two thousand and two. And

1141
00:54:40,599 --> 00:54:42,960
make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us

1142
00:54:43,039 --> 00:54:46,480
in business. Now go write some code, see you next time.

1143
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 2: You got Javans

1144
00:54:51,320 --> 00:55:01,159
Speaker 4: And the