1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Hi, This is Paul Dundas in addition to being a 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,120 golf Mader listener since the beginning. I'm from wothenar And 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,359 in Netherlands and I play at the Boston Artha Golf 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,160 Club Rosenstearin. This is golfmart number. 5 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: Four hundred and ninety one, published on June two, twenty fifteen. 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,199 Speaker 3: Welcome to golf Smarter Mulligans, your second chance to gain 7 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,839 insight and advice from the best instructors featured on the 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:30,879 Golf Smarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction Never gets old. Our 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,759 interview library features hundreds of hours of game improvement conversations 10 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,399 like this that are no longer available in any podcast app. 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 4: Is much more in the East, and if you think 12 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:43,640 about it, that's the way that golf moved across the 13 00:00:43,759 --> 00:00:45,679 United States. I mean it started in the East and 14 00:00:45,759 --> 00:00:48,200 moved west. And so these nine hole courses, a lot 15 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,719 of them, were built in the early days of golf 16 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,079 and then late eighteen nineties into the early nineteen hundreds, 17 00:00:54,079 --> 00:00:56,600 and then they were updated by better architects along the way. 18 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,759 Some were expanded into eighteen holes, like Myopia. Some Whitonsville, 19 00:01:00,799 --> 00:01:03,719 which was built in nineteen sixteen state is that the 20 00:01:03,719 --> 00:01:06,359 ones up and down the main coast state is nine 21 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,760 hole golf courses. But I think as golf moves west, 22 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,079 eighteen holes become standard. And the reason you see nine 23 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,280 in the Midwest states it's population reason for they have 24 00:01:16,359 --> 00:01:18,480 enough people to play in it, and the budgets upkeep 25 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,920 so by the time it gets to California, golf is 26 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,079 real and golf is eighteen holes, and so you see 27 00:01:23,159 --> 00:01:25,560 very few. You see Glenn Eagles in southern San Francisco, 28 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,599 and then you see Northwood north of California outside of 29 00:01:28,599 --> 00:01:30,840 the Bohemi Club, but that's too in that entire state 30 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,200 that I came across, I didn't really have anybody say 31 00:01:33,239 --> 00:01:35,799 to me, you know, you missed this. In California. The 32 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,719 bulk of the good nine old golf courses are in 33 00:01:37,719 --> 00:01:38,000 the east. 34 00:01:43,239 --> 00:01:46,159 Speaker 2: Nine hole courses are not a joke. They're really awesome. 35 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,799 Our guest is author of To the Nine's Anthony Poppy. 36 00:01:50,159 --> 00:01:53,359 Speaker 3: This is Golf Smarter Premium. 37 00:01:53,519 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter podcast. Anthony. 38 00:01:58,760 --> 00:01:59,799 Speaker 4: Hey for how are you doing, Matt. 39 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:01,959 Speaker 2: I'm doing well. Welcome back. 40 00:02:02,519 --> 00:02:03,439 Speaker 4: It's been a while, has it. 41 00:02:04,319 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: Well, yes, it's been a long time. You were one 42 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,400 of the first guests. You were on episode number fifty one. 43 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:14,479 We're approaching episode number five hundred now, and you were 44 00:02:14,479 --> 00:02:16,479 back in December of two thousand and six, so it 45 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,840 was almost our one year anniversary at that point, actually 46 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,639 is one short of our one year anniversary, and at 47 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,080 the time your book came out, why don't you hold 48 00:02:26,159 --> 00:02:30,560 up the new version? And to let everybody who's listening 49 00:02:30,599 --> 00:02:34,800 to the podcast know, we are broadcasting this interview as 50 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,319 well on Periscope. It's being done live, a live video 51 00:02:39,439 --> 00:02:43,719 feed of Anthony, who's actually on Skype and I'm looking 52 00:02:43,759 --> 00:02:47,080 at him through my phone on periscope. 53 00:02:47,439 --> 00:02:51,759 Speaker 4: Your technology is beautiful, and you're in California and I'm 54 00:02:51,759 --> 00:02:52,919 in West Hartford, Connecticut. 55 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 2: Don't you love the Internet? I do too, so yeah. 56 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,360 So for those of you who are not on Periscope, 57 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,520 we are at golf Smarter. You can follow us on 58 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,520 Twitter as well. And if you are on Periscope and 59 00:03:07,599 --> 00:03:10,280 you have a question for Anthony while we're going through, 60 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,400 please submit it. It'll come up on my phone and 61 00:03:13,479 --> 00:03:16,879 I will be able to hopefully write it down and 62 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,400 ask that ask that question that you've submitted. So Anthony. 63 00:03:21,479 --> 00:03:26,879 Let's let's get to the book all right, originally the 64 00:03:26,879 --> 00:03:32,000 Book to the Nines with a wonderful forward by Brad Faxon. 65 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,520 How did you get Brad Faxon to write your forward? 66 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 4: Well, I had known Brad Faxon a little bit at 67 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,080 the time, and he, you know, you hear that he's 68 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,840 really into golf course architecture, and you know, don't believe 69 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,199 everything you hear, don't believe everything you read. He really is. 70 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,840 I mean, he's one of those guys that would drive 71 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:51,960 twenty five miles out of his way to go to 72 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,000 a night old golf course that has one good hole 73 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,840 on it. He's really that kind of person. And he 74 00:03:56,919 --> 00:04:00,719 grew up playing essentially, you know, public golf as a kid. 75 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,520 And so I chatted with him about this and in 76 00:04:03,599 --> 00:04:06,199 the area where he is and he's from New England 77 00:04:06,199 --> 00:04:08,080 and I'm from you know, he's from Rhode Island that 78 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,479 I'm from Massachusetts and on living Connecticut. Now. He he 79 00:04:11,639 --> 00:04:14,199 just thought it was such a great idea to talk 80 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:19,800 about these you know, legitimately really wonderful golf courses and 81 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:24,560 that that people just I think overlook and at times dismiss. 82 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,560 And he's not that kind of guy. You know, he's 83 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,720 the guy that he's going to go see a golf 84 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:30,560 course and go see a golf hole. You know, that 85 00:04:30,639 --> 00:04:31,199 kind of person. 86 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,759 Speaker 2: So it was very nice of him to write this 87 00:04:33,879 --> 00:04:34,920 for you. This is yeah. 88 00:04:34,959 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 4: I said, well, here's the concept of the book and 89 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:38,879 he was like, wow, I've never thought of that. You know, 90 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,160 in New England we all grow up playing nine hole 91 00:04:41,199 --> 00:04:43,920 golf courses. I said, I'd really appreciate if you did this, 92 00:04:43,959 --> 00:04:46,319 and he said, not a problem, and he did it. 93 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: Amazing, amazing. Let's talk about nine hole golf courses are 94 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,240 not really in great favor these days. Let's go back. 95 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,319 Let's talk about the history of nine hole golf courses 96 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:00,000 when they were popped. 97 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I think they were popular right up until 98 00:05:04,319 --> 00:05:07,800 World War Two. First US Open US AM in our 99 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,879 Newport country Club was nine holes. I think the last 100 00:05:10,959 --> 00:05:13,279 US Open played on a night whole golf course was 101 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,319 It was at Myopia and I want to say nineteen 102 00:05:16,399 --> 00:05:20,920 ZHO six somewhere around there. And at that time all 103 00:05:20,959 --> 00:05:24,160 the great architects were building nine hole golf courses. SETH. 104 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:29,319 Rayner built a nine hole golf course one that two 105 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,199 possibly too. I'm just trying to think about got I 106 00:05:31,199 --> 00:05:35,120 think two. Donald Ross built a number of them. Alistair 107 00:05:35,199 --> 00:05:38,680 McKenzie built them. And what it was is in a 108 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:44,120 lot of situations, it was It's what my friend Bob 109 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,879 labanster since past, who wrote the chapter on Maine and 110 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,360 since passed away, talked about is they were referred to. 111 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,240 We referred to them as village courses. That people who 112 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:59,319 summered in these small towns, one who wanted to sail, 113 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,920 who wanted to ride horses, who wanted to swim, who 114 00:06:02,959 --> 00:06:05,680 wanted to play tennis, wanted a good nine hole golf course. 115 00:06:06,079 --> 00:06:09,240 So they brought in and nine holes because it was 116 00:06:09,319 --> 00:06:11,439 part of what they were doing for the summer activities. 117 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,519 It wasn't just dedicated to They weren't just dedicated to golf. 118 00:06:14,959 --> 00:06:18,959 So Wayne Styles and Donald Ross and Walter Travis and 119 00:06:18,959 --> 00:06:23,439 people like that designed nine hole golf courses and nobody 120 00:06:23,439 --> 00:06:26,480 ever thought of them as not a real golf course 121 00:06:26,639 --> 00:06:28,879 or a little golf course. I don't like that phrase. 122 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,319 It's a little golf course. It's a nine hole golf course. 123 00:06:31,319 --> 00:06:34,240 It's not a little golf course. And those guys built them, 124 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:38,199 you know, the Bohemian Club in Northern California, had a 125 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,839 nine hole Alistair Rickenzie golf course built for them. They 126 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,199 didn't considered it a little golf course. They considered it 127 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:44,319 a nine hole golf course. 128 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 2: Well, I think the little term is probably because of 129 00:06:48,639 --> 00:06:52,399 executive golf courses, right, these little par three courses. 130 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,879 Speaker 4: Right, and executive courses. And so I didn't realize because 131 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,040 I used to say the phrase, it actually has become 132 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,519 it fuses people because I've got one of the most 133 00:07:02,519 --> 00:07:05,199 frequent questions I get about this book is are you 134 00:07:05,319 --> 00:07:09,319 talking about executive courses? Are you talking about par three courses? 135 00:07:09,399 --> 00:07:11,399 I said, no, I'm talking about nine hole golf courses. 136 00:07:12,439 --> 00:07:16,000 And there seems to be this kind of confusion over that, 137 00:07:16,279 --> 00:07:18,600 you know, And it's amazing because I think, and it 138 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,360 still holds true, there's eight states that have more nine 139 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:24,439 hole golf courses than eighteen whole golf courses. The only 140 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,439 one east of the Mississippi is Maine. But a lot 141 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,480 of the Upper Midwest courses, I mean Upper Midwest states 142 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,920 have nine whole golf courses because there's not enough people 143 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,639 to support an eighteen whole public golf course or an 144 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,120 eighteen hole and another eighteen hole, So there's nine whole 145 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,639 golf courses all through the Dakotas and Wyoming and Montana 146 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,399 and places like that, and so I don't think any 147 00:07:47,439 --> 00:07:50,360 of those people consider them, you know, little golf courses. 148 00:07:50,439 --> 00:07:52,000 I think they consider them their golf course. 149 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 2: Do you think that those the states that have more 150 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,199 nine hole courses than eighteen whole courses, you think that 151 00:08:00,319 --> 00:08:03,040 has anything to do with farm country in the sense 152 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:08,759 that people don't have as much free time because they're working. 153 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,040 I don't know, I'm making yourself. 154 00:08:10,439 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 4: I think it's just the the the small amount of 155 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,800 people that live in an area. You know that if 156 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,279 you have one hundred square miles and there's not that 157 00:08:19,319 --> 00:08:22,079 many people, I don't think they can afford the upkeep 158 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,319 of an eighteen old golf course, or there's enough people 159 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:29,240 to play in a to play in a you know, 160 00:08:29,279 --> 00:08:32,240 to play an eighteen whole golf course, that makes it worthwhile. 161 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:34,519 You know, it should be a thousand square miles, not 162 00:08:34,519 --> 00:08:37,279 one hundred square miles. A thousand square miles where you know, 163 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,639 there's just you go through and there's these these these 164 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,440 nine hole golf courses kind of dotting the countryside. You know, 165 00:08:43,519 --> 00:08:46,200 you just drive up and people are playing and it's 166 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,360 not a it's not a social place. It's a you know, 167 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,399 it's not someplace you hang out and eat and drink 168 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,120 after you play. You you play golf and then you 169 00:08:54,159 --> 00:08:57,080 go on. It's just it's it's really much the way 170 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,679 golf started. The golf course is just about golf. 171 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: I just want to let at golf trips know that 172 00:09:03,919 --> 00:09:06,360 he's watching on periscope, and he has submitted a couple 173 00:09:06,399 --> 00:09:09,080 of interesting questions. I will get to those when we 174 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,200 get to that part of the conversation. So thanks for 175 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,600 the questions. And again, anybody on periscope is watching. If 176 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,759 you want to submit a question, I will try to 177 00:09:16,759 --> 00:09:19,759 pay attention to Anthony and right down the question at 178 00:09:19,799 --> 00:09:20,879 the same time. 179 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 4: Awesome. 180 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:28,399 Speaker 2: So these nine whole courses, they've got par three's, par four, 181 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:30,759 par five. How do they break them out? They've got 182 00:09:30,799 --> 00:09:34,039 long hole short holes. It's the real deal. It's just 183 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:35,440 not eighteen. 184 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 4: Right exactly, it's the real deal. Some of them do. 185 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,039 And this is rare is that some of them will 186 00:09:42,039 --> 00:09:45,960 actually set up different ts. Not just so if the 187 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,200 second time you play it the yardage is different, but 188 00:09:48,279 --> 00:09:51,320 that angles are different. But they're true golf courses. I 189 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,559 mean it's you go out and you golf, you ball. 190 00:09:53,639 --> 00:09:53,799 Speaker 2: You know. 191 00:09:54,279 --> 00:09:58,279 Speaker 4: A few years ago, the USGA made it so you 192 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,360 can now enter a nine hole school or for your handicap, 193 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,919 you know, with your gin. And the USGA, which is 194 00:10:06,279 --> 00:10:10,519 now has this play nine initiative, is helping to leg 195 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,080 once again legitimize nine hole golf courses. I mean, you're 196 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:13,600 the real deal. 197 00:10:14,519 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: Do you think it will be accepted by players? Do 198 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,840 you think people will think it's just nine holes? I 199 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,039 want to go out and play a full a dean 200 00:10:22,279 --> 00:10:22,720 come on. 201 00:10:23,519 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 4: Yeah. And I understand that if somebody plays a lot 202 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,120 of golf, playing the same nine holes over and over 203 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,440 and over. But you know, for for people, if you're 204 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,720 really a golfer and you truly enjoy golf and golf courses, 205 00:10:36,159 --> 00:10:40,399 then then dismissing I think dismissing a nine hole golf 206 00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:43,159 course is kind of like dismissing a diner because you 207 00:10:43,159 --> 00:10:45,200 don't think there's going to be good food there, or 208 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:49,159 you don't or you're you know, you're looking for whatever, 209 00:10:49,279 --> 00:10:52,639 you know, hot cuisine you want, and to just not 210 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,159 go to a five star restaurant every time if you're 211 00:10:55,159 --> 00:10:57,000 a true lover of food, doesn't make any sense. 212 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,039 Speaker 2: I love the retro reference on that being a diner 213 00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:10,480 being you know you, You wouldn't be a diner. I'm 214 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,279 not going to go there. I need but I need 215 00:11:12,279 --> 00:11:13,960 a real restaurant like Denny's. 216 00:11:13,639 --> 00:11:18,519 Speaker 4: Right, yeah, yeah, exactly, you know you'. And that's that's 217 00:11:18,519 --> 00:11:21,120 an interesting reference too, because so much of golf now, 218 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:24,840 or so much of it after World War Two, was 219 00:11:24,879 --> 00:11:29,200 cookie cutter and really repetitive and not thoughtful and didn't 220 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,320 require strategy that it did become Denny's. You know, since 221 00:11:33,399 --> 00:11:35,679 Pete Dye in the late eighties when he brought strategy 222 00:11:36,159 --> 00:11:40,480 back to golf, it's gotten much better. And what all 223 00:11:40,519 --> 00:11:43,480 but two of these golf courses in my book are 224 00:11:44,759 --> 00:11:48,720 classic era golf courses before before nineteen sixty, and they 225 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,759 all have, you know, some very cool hole, some wonderful strategy. 226 00:11:54,919 --> 00:11:57,440 You're not going to go there and just hit it. 227 00:11:57,759 --> 00:11:59,919 Hitting it straight at every hole is not going to 228 00:11:59,919 --> 00:12:01,960 be off. The t is not going to be the answer, 229 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,159 and that's what makes it fun. The course on the cover, 230 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,679 that's the second hole at Fenwork in old Saybrook, Connecticut, 231 00:12:08,799 --> 00:12:11,279 and that's one hundred and ninety five yard part three, 232 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,879 and the flag is actually blowing. So that's the left bunker. 233 00:12:14,919 --> 00:12:17,159 You're looking at the whole place, the whole place from 234 00:12:17,159 --> 00:12:18,919 your right, as far as the way we're looking. 235 00:12:19,879 --> 00:12:21,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, show us the cover again. 236 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, so let me get this right. So you're playing 237 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,200 from this direction. But that's the ocean right there. That's 238 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,200 Long Island Sound, and right over here is the house. 239 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: Like we're move moving a little more there a little 240 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:37,039 bit right there in front of you would be oh, 241 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:37,639 is that right? 242 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,519 Speaker 4: And so she grew up playing fenwork. And this is 243 00:12:42,519 --> 00:12:45,080 one hundred and ninety five yard hole and you if 244 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:46,840 you want, you can fly it to the green and 245 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,679 the wind, the prevailing wind is the way the flag 246 00:12:48,759 --> 00:12:51,600 is blowing. There. That's Long Island Sound, and you see. 247 00:12:51,879 --> 00:12:54,639 And the play is to play the ball out to 248 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,799 the right and let the wind bring it back. But 249 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,159 the real play is to play it low. Is to 250 00:12:59,159 --> 00:13:01,879 play a pure link style golf shop because this is 251 00:13:01,919 --> 00:13:04,320 a course with no fairy irrigation. And if you know 252 00:13:04,399 --> 00:13:06,440 the course, there's a kick slope about twenty yards short 253 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,279 of the green, and all you need to do is 254 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,200 flight something about one hundred and sixty five hundred and 255 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,639 sixty yards and it will run onto the green underneath 256 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:13,879 the win. 257 00:13:14,159 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 2: That's a hell of a lot of strategy for one 258 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,559 golf that's amazing. 259 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 4: And that's one wind, and the wind swirls and the 260 00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:23,279 wind changes and all of that. So people who come 261 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,120 to me and say, you know, Fenwick really isn't that 262 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,399 much of a golf course. It's twenty five hundred yards 263 00:13:28,879 --> 00:13:31,840 at par thirty five. My question is, I say to them, 264 00:13:31,879 --> 00:13:33,519 We'll go play and come back and tell me what 265 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,039 you shot. Let me know if you shot below par, 266 00:13:36,399 --> 00:13:38,879 let me know if you if you shot below your handicap, 267 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,200 tell me what you played. And nobody ever comes back 268 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,919 and says, no, I was right. I killed this golf course. 269 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. I love when people say I don't want to 270 00:13:47,759 --> 00:13:50,679 play the front tees. I don't want to play that course. 271 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,279 It's boring. I don't want to play the front tease. 272 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,039 It's not long enough. It's like, oh, are you going 273 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:54,600 to shoot par? 274 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 4: Right? 275 00:13:55,759 --> 00:13:57,159 Speaker 2: No, well, then shut up. 276 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 4: Rory McIlroy's hitting driver at and the Masters players are 277 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,480 hitting drivers six iron into par fives. That's us playing 278 00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:08,279 a fifty eight hundred yard golf course to do the 279 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:08,759 same thing. 280 00:14:09,399 --> 00:14:13,519 Speaker 2: Incredible. There are resort courses. I'm seeing more and more 281 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,840 that have three sets of nine and they're like on 282 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:23,399 Mondays you'll play nine A and nine C, and on 283 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,399 Tuesday you'll play nine B and nine A and once. 284 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,559 You know, so if you're staying at a resort, you 285 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,960 can play every day, but have different combinations in different courses. 286 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,279 And they're completely different courses too, right, And you know, 287 00:14:36,399 --> 00:14:38,480 does that count for nine hole courses or no? 288 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 4: It doesn't for me because that was built as twenty 289 00:14:40,879 --> 00:14:43,679 seven you know, if you like, I consider the front 290 00:14:43,759 --> 00:14:46,440 nine at Rolling Rock, which is Rolling Our Club now 291 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,919 an eighteen old golf course. It's in the book because 292 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,559 it was built by Donald Ross's as a nine hole 293 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,159 golf course. And so my whole discussion is about the 294 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,679 front nine of that golf course. But if you build 295 00:14:57,679 --> 00:14:59,759 it like that, that's just a twenty seven hole golf course. 296 00:14:59,799 --> 00:14:59,960 You know. 297 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess so that makes sense. And I don't 298 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,320 even know if you can get a nine hole rate 299 00:15:05,399 --> 00:15:07,440 at those courses. It's like you just want to say, no, 300 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,159 I just want to play nine today because I want 301 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,039 to play first thing in the morning. Then I want 302 00:15:11,039 --> 00:15:12,759 to go be with my family all day. I don't 303 00:15:12,799 --> 00:15:14,960 want to t off at eight and miss lunch. 304 00:15:15,639 --> 00:15:18,639 Speaker 4: Yeah, well it's you know around here. In fact, in 305 00:15:18,679 --> 00:15:22,080 West Hartford there's two twenty seven whole private courses and 306 00:15:23,159 --> 00:15:26,840 they're setup for the membership is you know, like the 307 00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:28,919 Red White and Blue nine. So if you play Red 308 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,399 and White as the eighteen whole course, blue is a 309 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,720 nine hole course for the day. And I think that's 310 00:15:33,759 --> 00:15:36,240 fantastic because that's where people go and get a quick 311 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,759 nine in, that's where people go and play with their kids. 312 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,200 That's where people go who are learning the game. It's 313 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,639 really cool because you're not in anybody's way and you're 314 00:15:43,679 --> 00:15:45,159 still on a golf course, you know what I mean, 315 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:45,919 And you're still at the. 316 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: Club exactly exactly. Actually, that's one of the questions that 317 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,440 at Golf Trips asked on the periscope was about different 318 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:54,320 color flags. 319 00:15:56,159 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 4: Oh for what on. 320 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: You can recognize which course you're playing if it's got 321 00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:05,480 multiple lines on there. 322 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess I'm trying to think. Yeah, I think 323 00:16:08,399 --> 00:16:10,519 there might be situations where you need to make sure 324 00:16:10,519 --> 00:16:13,159 you're walking to the right tee on the right nine 325 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,840 and playing to the right green and all that. And 326 00:16:16,519 --> 00:16:19,960 the two courses here they just have the you know, 327 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,519 the if they're private, so you know where you're going. 328 00:16:22,759 --> 00:16:24,120 But I could see that being a heck of a 329 00:16:24,159 --> 00:16:26,799 problem at a resort. 330 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 2: And what about courses again, if I'm going to take 331 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:34,759 Golf Trip's question about holes with two flags on one green. 332 00:16:36,279 --> 00:16:39,639 Speaker 4: Yeah, I kind of get that. I'm not sure I'm 333 00:16:39,679 --> 00:16:42,320 a fan of that. If the course is if the 334 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,039 green is big enough, if we're talking a green that's 335 00:16:45,279 --> 00:16:48,600 you know, double the average size of a double the 336 00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:51,399 size of an average green, say somewhere in the vicinity 337 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,639 of ten to twelve thousand square feet. I get that, 338 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,039 but I'm not sure I want to. I want to 339 00:16:58,039 --> 00:17:00,799 get involved, make my superintendent have to be doing that 340 00:17:00,879 --> 00:17:04,599 kind of stuff and putting to different places and all that. 341 00:17:04,799 --> 00:17:06,759 One of the interesting ones is the Dunes Club out 342 00:17:06,759 --> 00:17:10,440 in Michigan. Mike Kieser, the guy who started banding Dunes. 343 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,200 This was his first course. He has the flags changed. 344 00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:16,359 He has the flags change once a day at the 345 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,799 nine hole course. So you played a two, if you 346 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,440 played twice in a day, you played a two separate 347 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:24,240 or two different two gole locations. 348 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 2: Oh, that's very cool. A couple months ago, I was 349 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,000 back in visiting a friend in Maui, and he's a 350 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,440 member of Maui Country Club and it's a nine hole 351 00:17:32,559 --> 00:17:37,200 track with different tea boxes. You play eighteen holes, but 352 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,160 you really are playing, you know, and some of the 353 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,880 tea boxes are in a completely different location. The look 354 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,640 is different, the feel is different, the bunkering just comes 355 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,799 into play so differently. I was thinking at first, I'm like, really, 356 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,440 you pay membership to be on a nine hole course, 357 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,160 But that after I was like, Okay, I loved that. 358 00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:59,400 That was so much fun. 359 00:18:00,039 --> 00:18:02,519 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I wouldn't be surprised if that's if that's 360 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:09,119 a trend that we see, because with with land issues 361 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,839 and cost issues for construction and all of that, you know, 362 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:18,240 the cost of adding entirely separates is so much cheaper 363 00:18:18,279 --> 00:18:20,960 than building another nine holes. I mean, you're not talking 364 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,640 about changing the whole quarter with of the existing nine 365 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,480 or the first nine. It's really a way to make 366 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,799 to make the nine play completely, you know, completely different 367 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,039 a second time around. And then what you start to 368 00:18:33,079 --> 00:18:35,519 do is you can then mix and match. You know, 369 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,720 just because you have a technically a front nine and 370 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,079 a back nine doesn't mean you have to play it 371 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:42,920 that way all the time. You know, you can flip 372 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,680 your par threes, so you're playing your first nine out 373 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,359 of you're playing the back nine of one in the 374 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,559 front nine of another. It actually ends up with a 375 00:18:50,559 --> 00:18:53,160 whole bunch of, you know, cool scenarios to keep you 376 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:54,440 interested in the golf course. 377 00:18:55,559 --> 00:18:57,519 Speaker 2: When you mentioned there are eight states that have more 378 00:18:57,599 --> 00:19:03,960 nine hole courses than eight whole courses, I being a 379 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:09,079 West Coast person, I don't see any good nine hole 380 00:19:09,319 --> 00:19:11,839 I don't see any nine hole courses. I see a 381 00:19:11,839 --> 00:19:14,799 lot of executive courses. I learned how to play on 382 00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:17,880 a par three and I played it once or twice 383 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:19,200 when I was a kid, and then I never played 384 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,039 golf again. And then as I started playing as an adult, 385 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,000 there was a nine hole track right down the street 386 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,920 from me that was an executive It's a par three 387 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:32,519 and par four, No par five's on it. And yeah, 388 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,920 so are does the West Coast? Is it mostly an 389 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,119 East Coast thing that there are great nine hole tracks 390 00:19:39,519 --> 00:19:41,680 with par three four, part four and par fives. 391 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's there's much more in the East and I 392 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,000 and if you think about it, that's the way that 393 00:19:46,039 --> 00:19:48,480 golf moved across the United States. I mean it started 394 00:19:48,519 --> 00:19:52,039 in the East and moved west and so these nine 395 00:19:52,039 --> 00:19:53,920 hole courses, a lot of them were built in the 396 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,599 early days of golf, and then you know, late eighteen 397 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,559 not late eighteen nineties, into the early nineteen hundreds, and 398 00:20:01,559 --> 00:20:05,519 then they were updated by better architects along the way. 399 00:20:05,759 --> 00:20:10,160 Some were expanded into eighteen holes, like Myopia, some like Whitonsville, 400 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,079 which was built in which I could nineteen fifteen, nineteen sixteen. State. 401 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,559 Is that the ones up and down the main coast, 402 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,119 you know, State is nine hole golf courses. But I 403 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,359 think as so then as golf moves west, eighteen holes 404 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,240 become standard. And the reason you see nine like we 405 00:20:28,279 --> 00:20:31,799 talked about in the Midwest States, is that it's a 406 00:20:31,839 --> 00:20:35,680 population reason for it. You know, it's not that people 407 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,359 are looking for nine hole. I think it's all that, 408 00:20:37,519 --> 00:20:41,160 like we said that they can they have enough people 409 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,160 to play in it and the budget to upkeep. So 410 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,400 by the time it gets to California, you know, the golf, 411 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,119 golf is real and golf is eighteen holes, and that's 412 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,279 what a country club is. And so you see very few. 413 00:20:53,319 --> 00:20:56,440 I mean, you see Glenn Eagles in San Francis, San Francisco, 414 00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:02,559 right southern San Francisco, and then you see Northwood, you know, 415 00:21:03,279 --> 00:21:06,559 north of California outside of the Bohemi Club. But that's 416 00:21:06,599 --> 00:21:08,839 too in that entire state that I came across. I 417 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,960 didn't really get any after I wrote the first book. 418 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,720 Had anybody say to me, you know you missed this 419 00:21:13,839 --> 00:21:16,720 in California. There's a couple I wish I could have 420 00:21:16,759 --> 00:21:19,400 gotten to and you know, done some more with. Willie 421 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,799 Nelson owns a nine hole golf course called Pernallis and 422 00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:23,920 I was never able to line up doing that, but 423 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,200 that would have been a wonderful story. But the bulk 424 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,640 of the bulk of the good golf nine golf courses 425 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:30,200 are in the East. 426 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 2: At a quick Willie Nelson aside, since I brought up 427 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,079 the Maui Country Club, oh boy, hope, I'm get in 428 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:46,119 trouble for this one. He he came out to that 429 00:21:46,279 --> 00:21:49,000 court course at Mali Country Club and he was asking 430 00:21:49,079 --> 00:21:51,920 there are people allowed to smoke on the course and 431 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,079 they said, well, of course, he goes, no, no, no, man, 432 00:21:54,519 --> 00:21:57,000 can they smoke weed on the course? So they have 433 00:21:57,079 --> 00:22:00,880 the Willie Nelson role at the MOUNTI I didn't say that. 434 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,720 I didn't say that, Okay, well, and. 435 00:22:03,599 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 4: He I think the name of his course is Pern Allison. 436 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,559 He's famous for the line he who has the fastest 437 00:22:09,559 --> 00:22:12,359 golf card never has a bad line. 438 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 2: That's a great one. 439 00:22:15,759 --> 00:22:18,559 Speaker 4: Yeah. And one of my friends who actually who co 440 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,000 wrote the book The Towel of Willie with Willie. His 441 00:22:21,079 --> 00:22:23,240 name is Turk Cook and he's a golf writer, talks 442 00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:25,640 about playing in a fourteen some with Willy there because 443 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,799 it's Willy's golf course. He makes the rules and it 444 00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:29,839 was fourteen people in fourteen golf cards. 445 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,559 Speaker 2: That's very funny. It's the golden rule. He who has 446 00:22:32,599 --> 00:22:34,000 the gold makes the rules. 447 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,039 Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely. 448 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 2: You mentioned the guy who owns Bandon Dunes. Have you 449 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:42,880 ever been out there? 450 00:22:43,519 --> 00:22:47,079 Speaker 4: I have. I haven't seen Old McDonald, but I played 451 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:47,799 the other three. 452 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's he opened a fourth course there. 453 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,880 Old McDonald beat the crud out of me. But they 454 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,839 have one of the most fun nine hole courses I've 455 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,680 ever played. It is a part three. It's an executive style. 456 00:23:02,079 --> 00:23:04,160 But I had so much I would go back to 457 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,519 Bandon just to play the par three again. It was 458 00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:07,279 that much fun. 459 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, it's cool. The whole concept that he 460 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,519 has out there was great, and that he built something 461 00:23:12,599 --> 00:23:16,759 like that. That par three golf course, I think really 462 00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:21,599 indicates that he understands what is what makes golf fun 463 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,319 and how it's not just big eighteen hole flash sand 464 00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:27,960 bunkers and you know that kind of stuff that you 465 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,279 can go play a par three and have a blast, 466 00:23:31,319 --> 00:23:31,519 you know. 467 00:23:32,079 --> 00:23:34,519 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, No, all the courses that he's built there 468 00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:39,759 are truly done with reverence to the game. There's no 469 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,160 question about it. It's spectacular and band and it again, 470 00:23:43,599 --> 00:23:46,359 it was the hardest golf I've ever played in my life, 471 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,119 and I hated it while I was there, but once 472 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,880 I left and I started looking at the pictures and 473 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,240 thinking about it, it was like it was magic. 474 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, I argue with you. You know, somebody else by 475 00:23:57,759 --> 00:24:00,680 another place has that concept is the Prairie Club, Nebraska, 476 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,440 which has thirty six holes, but they have the ten 477 00:24:03,519 --> 00:24:06,680 hole horse course and there's ten sets of te's and 478 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,359 ten greens and there's no scorecard and no direction on 479 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,480 how to play it, so you can walk well it's 480 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,519 not even tease. You kind of walk off greens and 481 00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:18,079 hits whichever flag you want, and there's no yardages. And 482 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,079 I don't think that I think the longest hole is 483 00:24:20,079 --> 00:24:22,759 one hundred and forty yards and so you just take 484 00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:24,279 a handful of clubs and you go out and play. 485 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,440 It's a blast. It's an absolute blast. 486 00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 2: It sounds like it was designed by somebody from our 487 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,240 generation who is part of the woodstock generation, who had 488 00:24:32,279 --> 00:24:35,319 one too many sugar cubes and said, dude, let's play 489 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:35,920 some golf. 490 00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:39,039 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pretty cool. And the only thing that's out 491 00:24:39,039 --> 00:24:41,200 there is trash cans. A couple of tresh kids here 492 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,640 in there, because guys, after they've played their thirty six holes, 493 00:24:44,319 --> 00:24:46,200 eat dinner and just walk back outside and play some 494 00:24:46,279 --> 00:24:48,000 holes and beers on their hands and just drop them 495 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,640 in the drop them in the cans and just in 496 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,440 the bins and just keep playing. And you can play, 497 00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:54,960 you know, play until ten o'clock at night during the summer. 498 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,599 So it's really really a lot of fun. 499 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 2: That may have that may have been the birth of 500 00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:04,200 disc golf. Those trash cans. That's the next book. That's 501 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:09,599 the next book. There are some very famous nine hole tracks. 502 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,319 We talk about Bandon Dune's Olympic Club in San Francisco. Again, 503 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:21,920 I think that's an executive nine holer. Augusta on Wednesday, 504 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,200 Par three. There isn't that interesting. So they're not that famous, uh, 505 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,440 nine hole tracks, they're just little executive courses that are cute. 506 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean Augusta's Augusta and Pine Valley which is 507 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,039 ten holes. They don't even have part fours. Those are 508 00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:42,240 just straight par three's interesting. Yeah, kind of like the uh, 509 00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:46,160 the little course in front of the Turnbury Hotel, which 510 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,440 I think is twelve holes. Those are all par three's. Wow. 511 00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:56,319 Speaker 2: Architects who've been involved in the design of nine hole 512 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:02,319 courses some pretty famous names that we're doing some great 513 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,519 work on nine hole tracks. Give us a little background 514 00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:06,160 on that too. 515 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 4: Yeah. Donald Rossa did something in Kinetic excuse me in Massachusetts, 516 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,599 and it's interesting that in two the best I think 517 00:26:13,599 --> 00:26:15,640 where's now the best hole golf nine hole golf course 518 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,319 in the United States is Whitensville, which is a Whitensville, 519 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,000 mass which was the Witton family and the Witton family 520 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:24,799 owned this big mill and they built a golf course 521 00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:28,119 for their employees and they brought Ross in and ross 522 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,400 did a great job. They had the plans. The ninth 523 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,519 hole is and I talked about this in the book. 524 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,480 The ninth hole is one of Ben Crenshaw's favorite par 525 00:26:35,599 --> 00:26:38,759 fours in the world. It's really an astoundingly cool part. 526 00:26:38,799 --> 00:26:41,640 Four down the road from that, twenty miles is where 527 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,799 I grew up in a town called Southbridge, and we 528 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,160 used to have the American Optical Company, which is the 529 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,400 largest manufacturer of eyeglasses in the world, and the Wells 530 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,920 family built a nine hole golf course. Just like in Whitonsville, 531 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,599 they had Ross come in. It was built for them 532 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,319 originally that then became a country club, but not in 533 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,519 the way that we think about a country club. It 534 00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:02,599 was very much a blue collar country club. It was 535 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,920 for the mill workers and and there are people that 536 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,759 could afford to play golf, and so Ross did things 537 00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:12,440 like that very very often. Where where it was it 538 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,519 was built, it was built for a specific family, a 539 00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:18,440 wealthy family that you know, there's there's a Ross course 540 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,480 in I'm just trying to think Petersham, Massachusetts. He built 541 00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:26,240 that for I think that was Pittsburgh Steel summertime steel money, 542 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,160 so they wanted and they wanted a nine hole golf course. 543 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,519 So Ross Ross did a lot of them, I would 544 00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:35,599 get I would think that Ross did more for whatever reason. 545 00:27:35,599 --> 00:27:37,720 It may be his New England roots did more than 546 00:27:37,759 --> 00:27:39,039 anybody of the classic care. 547 00:27:39,079 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 2: Architects, but he wasn't the only one. I mean, I 548 00:27:43,279 --> 00:27:47,599 saw another very classic name in your list while I 549 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,160 was reading the book again, Mackenzie. What's that, Alistair Mackenzie. 550 00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:56,559 Speaker 4: Mackenzie. Mackenzie built this this nine holes at Northwood, uh, 551 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,599 you know, north of San Francisco. That's just astounding is 552 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,599 Ben's changes in the golf course. One because the Russian 553 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,839 River wiped away a green and they had to sense 554 00:28:06,039 --> 00:28:08,200 during a flood, they had to move a tee for 555 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,160 safety reasons. But you just get out there, and he 556 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:13,799 didn't mail this one in. I mean, this is a 557 00:28:13,839 --> 00:28:16,480 real golf course and he's got some strategy and some 558 00:28:16,599 --> 00:28:20,400 options and deception going on out there. That's just amazing. 559 00:28:20,759 --> 00:28:23,400 And it's carved through a redwood forest. And for somebody 560 00:28:23,759 --> 00:28:25,599 like me who's from New England, to be playing golf 561 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,839 in a redwood forest in itself is just an amazing experience. 562 00:28:29,839 --> 00:28:31,880 But to be playing a Mackenzie course at the same time, 563 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:33,400 it's just over the top. 564 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,279 Speaker 2: Well, you're gonna have to let me know when you 565 00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:43,839 come back out and visit, and we'll take a tour together, 566 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,119 because I seem to be playing along tall trees all 567 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:52,160 the time. All right, all right, yeah, And what's really 568 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,160 interesting because of the drought situation here now the Russian 569 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,640 River is going dry. It is, yeah, so they're not 570 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,119 gonna be wiping away any floo, any greens, but but 571 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,440 the Russian River when we do have lots of rain, 572 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,319 the Russian River wipes out towns, right it overflows. 573 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 4: And the cool thing about Northward for me is that 574 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,319 you know, it's it's it's above the vineyards, it's you know, 575 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,039 north of the vineyards and all that. And you get 576 00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:18,000 up there and you think to yourself, like what am 577 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:19,559 I going to do? And there's and there's a little 578 00:29:19,599 --> 00:29:23,279 motel right there, and so you can bop around that 579 00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:25,480 area and see what's going on, and there's some cool 580 00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:28,279 nature thing. But here's this Alistair McKenzie night whole golf 581 00:29:28,319 --> 00:29:32,839 course that's incredibly affordable and you're literally a four minute 582 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,640 walk from the first t That's amazing. Yeah, that's fun. 583 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 2: Wow. So your book came out originally in two thousand 584 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,839 and six, which is when we did the first interview, 585 00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:46,680 and the reason you've come back now is because you've 586 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,359 got a new chapter, just the one or there's there's 587 00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:54,920 it's a new edition of the book. Congratulations, right and why. 588 00:29:55,359 --> 00:29:57,359 Speaker 4: Well what happened was is that I was about a 589 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,599 year ago, I was approached by people from the publishing 590 00:30:01,599 --> 00:30:02,720 house Roman and Littlefield. 591 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: Uh. 592 00:30:03,839 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 4: One of the guys involved with the company had read 593 00:30:06,039 --> 00:30:09,680 the book spend some time every year and I'll say 594 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,559 Brook knows Fenwick, loves the Nighthole golf course at Fenwick, 595 00:30:13,519 --> 00:30:16,839 and asked me if I would be interested in them 596 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,880 the book's been out of Princeton's twenty ten, I believe, 597 00:30:20,279 --> 00:30:22,319 asked if I would be interested in the book coming 598 00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:25,599 in them and them reprinting the book. And that's you know, 599 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,440 that's the dumbest question I've had asked me in the 600 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,839 last year. Absolutely, you know, let's do this again. And 601 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,960 I said, there's this new there's this course that just 602 00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:37,920 opened in uh are about to open in Tennessee. It's 603 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,599 the only one that's opened since the a note that's 604 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,799 opened since the book came out. And I'd like to 605 00:30:42,839 --> 00:30:45,079 add that course. And they said, you can do whatever 606 00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:47,720 you want. Uh, we want you to update the chapters 607 00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:50,480 that the existing chapters and we and we'd love you 608 00:30:50,519 --> 00:30:52,920 to do that. So I went out to Swanee in 609 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,160 South Pittsburgh, Tennessee, near Chattanooga. And that's the new chapter. 610 00:30:57,599 --> 00:31:00,880 And the course opened in October to rave reviews and 611 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,640 continues to get ray reviews. 612 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 2: That's amazing. 613 00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:05,799 Speaker 4: I think it's the best. I think it's the best 614 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,200 nine to hold golf course built since since the end 615 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:11,839 of World War Two. I think it's better than the 616 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:12,440 Dunes Club. 617 00:31:13,519 --> 00:31:14,279 Speaker 2: Wow. 618 00:31:14,799 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 4: Why it's really really, really amazing. 619 00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 2: Why do you think it's so great? 620 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,359 Speaker 4: Well, it has an immense amount of strategy to it. 621 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,839 Rob Collins and Tad King who designed it. It's Rob 622 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,759 Collins or the architect. He partners with Tad King who's 623 00:31:28,839 --> 00:31:33,000 the construction superintendent and the shaper. And their whole concept 624 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,720 was really what Augusta National concept was, which is now gone. 625 00:31:37,799 --> 00:31:40,920 But the kind of the Inland Links course, very very 626 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,200 wide fairways, no rough. Anybody can play the golf course. 627 00:31:45,279 --> 00:31:47,039 Most of the greens are open in front, so you 628 00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:49,920 can bounce the ball onto the green. But there's specific 629 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,920 strategy to every hole. So when a when a whole, 630 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,440 when a whole quarter is eighty five yards wide, you 631 00:31:56,519 --> 00:31:59,279 can you still have to come in from a correct side. 632 00:31:59,759 --> 00:32:02,920 And so that's really really fun. The greens have a 633 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,480 lot of movement in and but they're big, so they're 634 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,400 not lacky, you know what I mean. You have some 635 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,720 big sweeping putts, but the cupable areas are very sublime. 636 00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:13,759 It's a lot of fun, a lot a lot of fun. 637 00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 2: And what about the future of nine hole courses? Because 638 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,319 the United States, there are no new courses being built. 639 00:32:23,319 --> 00:32:25,599 There's no money going to it's all going into China. 640 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,359 It seems like there hasn't been a new course. And 641 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,440 some people blame the tiger effect on this, but there's not, 642 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,119 you know, a lot of construction being done. And it's 643 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,160 also because of the classic complaints. It takes too long, 644 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,720 it's too hard, it's too expensive. People's lives are so 645 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,000 there's so much going on in everybody's lives, they just 646 00:32:48,039 --> 00:32:51,359 don't have time for a full eighteen holes. Nine holes 647 00:32:51,359 --> 00:32:55,519 seems to be the perfect you know, resolution for this, 648 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,119 Is that the right word? Resolution? 649 00:32:58,359 --> 00:32:58,559 Speaker 4: Yes? 650 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 2: Okay? And I mean, like I would love to be 651 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,079 able to go out to my favorite course and say 652 00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:05,880 I just want to play nine today and say I'm sorry, 653 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,640 you can't do that after eight thirty in the morning. 654 00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:10,960 Another way, I would love to see it is break 655 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,960 it up into six, twelve or eighteen. 656 00:33:13,599 --> 00:33:16,519 Speaker 4: Right, they do that to you that you can't play nine. Yeah. Yeah. 657 00:33:16,559 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 2: I recently I said do you have a nine hole rate? 658 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,519 And they said not eight after eight thirty in the morning. 659 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,839 Speaker 4: That's interesting because that's the usg HIT now has come 660 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,680 out with this play nine initiative, and it's multifaceted. The 661 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,839 idea is to get people back to golf to golf. 662 00:33:33,039 --> 00:33:36,279 They're letting people know that you can submit a nine 663 00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:38,720 old round as partry a handicap. You can go on 664 00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:41,319 the website and find nine hole golf courses, but you 665 00:33:41,359 --> 00:33:43,359 can also go to the web and find go to 666 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,359 the website and find eighteen hole or golf facilities that 667 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,160 are nine hole friendly. You know, all the nine hole 668 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,839 eighteen hole golf courses in my area that are public 669 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,079 are nine hole friendly. You can play nine holes. They're 670 00:33:56,079 --> 00:33:58,799 also encouraging people to go and practice, to go and 671 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,160 chip and pod to go or the range to have fun. 672 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:03,599 But I think I think you're going to see the 673 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,960 end of excluding nine hole play pretty soon. I mean, 674 00:34:08,039 --> 00:34:11,039 that's that doesn't make any sense from a business model 675 00:34:11,079 --> 00:34:14,559 standpoint to me. And I think you know, we're in 676 00:34:14,599 --> 00:34:16,880 a downturn for golf for whatever reason. It may just 677 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:22,280 be cyclical, but I see nine holes rounds and rounds, 678 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,840 and I guess that the realization that nine hole golf 679 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,079 courses are out there, you know, becoming more as time 680 00:34:31,119 --> 00:34:33,199 goes on. And I hope that that's true, because there's 681 00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:35,239 some really good golf courses that are being overlooked. 682 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know, for me what would be awesome 683 00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:41,360 is because I usually I like to play later in 684 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,079 the afternoon, so I play a lot more when it's 685 00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:47,280 daylight savings time. So when it's not daylight savings time, 686 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,519 if I want to go out at two o'clock, I 687 00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:53,400 can only get nine holes in any way, right, you know. 688 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 4: So there's a municipal golf course in the top next 689 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:01,119 to me, Meriton, and they usually have very busy play 690 00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:02,519 in the morning, so they would do it, you know, 691 00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:06,239 a double crossover started both teas one and ten crosses 692 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,000 over the course is full. When the course opens up again, 693 00:35:09,159 --> 00:35:11,880 they dedicate one T to eighteen and one T to 694 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,719 nine And that's really cool. If you pitch your nine 695 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,000 hole early afternoon play out there and they're done in 696 00:35:18,039 --> 00:35:18,599 two hours. 697 00:35:19,079 --> 00:35:21,159 Speaker 2: And now I would love to get a quick tip 698 00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:21,480 from you. 699 00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 4: Okay, I've given this tip to a lot of people 700 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,400 that come back to me and told me it was 701 00:35:26,639 --> 00:35:28,840 spot on. Go find a nine hole golf course that 702 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,199 you've overlooked, that people have told you isn't worth playing, 703 00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:34,800 isn't a true golf course, isn't a real golf course, 704 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,039 and go play. You're going to be pleasantly surprised.