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Every little helps available the most stores, 11 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:29.879 prices very inn express. 12 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:33.200 Mum, why did they call it Scottish cheese? 13 00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:36.039 It's cottage cheese, honey. And I'm not sure. 14 00:00:35.840 --> 00:00:39.200 Did dogs in other countries speak different languages? 15 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:39.719 Yeah? 16 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:42.399 I think so. When when we get there, well, we've 17 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:44.560 got to fix the car first, but there's someone coming 18 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:45.200 to help us. 19 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:47.119 Is it the man from Geneva? 20 00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:51.359 Not Geneva, he's from a Viva. Oh there's a van now. 21 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:54.479 For car insurance with breakdown rescue. It takes a Viva 22 00:00:54.759 --> 00:00:58.200 visit Aviva? Do I eat to say fifteen percent acceptance criteria. 23 00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:00.640 Terms and conditions apply. Minimum premium of three hundred and 24 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:03.079 ten yuro o fifteen percent discant applies to new policies 25 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:05.920 bought online. See Aviva dotta E for details. Car insurance 26 00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:08.840 is underwritten by Aviva Insurance Arland DOC Aviva Direct Arlund 27 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:11.040 Limited is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. 28 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:14.879 Oh hey, it's yesterday's medication in your genes pocket. Oops, 29 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:18.799 Ali Ward. Let's stab ourselves with information from a porcupines 30 00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:21.560 business end. We have a good one. What a chat. 31 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:23.760 I remember getting off this interview and being like, this 32 00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:26.000 is this is why I make the show. You're in 33 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:26.519 for a treat. 34 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:26.879 Okay. 35 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:29.519 So we've got an associate professor from San Luis Obispo's 36 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:34.200 California Polytechnic State University cal POLY who teaches courses like 37 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:38.799 Introduction to Wildlife, Conservation and Administration. They studied ecology, evolution, 38 00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:42.640 and environmental biology at Columbia University. They headed a UC 39 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:46.879 Berkeley for a master's and PhD in Environmental Science, Policy 40 00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:50.719 and Management. Bonus. They specialize in rodents. What does it 41 00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:55.120 have to do with porcupines? Everything? Porcupines are rodents? What yep? 42 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:59.599 Big beautiful barbed rat like creatures and we love them. 43 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:03.879 Thank you also to Sarah Listener Berman to listener Sarah 44 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:07.879 Berman who suggested this ologist singing their praises of their 45 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.000 porcupine enthusiasm. So we're going to get to it in 46 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:11.479 a sect, But first, thank you so much to everyone 47 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:14.319 who's sends me questions audio ones as well. You can 48 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:16.719 submit them at patreon dot com, slash ologies, thanks to 49 00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:20.639 everyone wearing ologies merch from ologiesmerch dot com. And thanks 50 00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:22.719 to everyone who leaves reviews for the show, which helps 51 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:25.639 us so much, like this one from NJ Roadrunner, who wrote, 52 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:28.240 if science could embody itself as a warm hug, this 53 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:30.800 show would be it. Also want to shout out Snake's Rule, 54 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:33.039 who left the review. I'm eleven years old and I 55 00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:35.560 love this podcast. No, I'm not kidding. No, I do 56 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:38.080 not listen to Smologies. No I do not listen to 57 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:41.319 the bleeped ones. Yes, I actually understand it. You keep 58 00:02:41.360 --> 00:02:44.039 doing you, Ali, Snake's Rule, I'm a fan of you 59 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:46.919 and of snakes. Okay, for those who are looking though 60 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:50.000 for kids safe episodes, just a reminder that we have Smologies. 61 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:53.039 It's available wherever you subscribe to podcasts. It's a spinoff show. 62 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:56.280 You can look for the green cover art. Okay, porcupines. 63 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:58.800 So porcupines news to me get their name from the 64 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:03.319 Latin for thorn pig. But theology for this let's just 65 00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:08.560 say a rhyth risenology, which comes from the Greek for irritating. 66 00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:11.879 There's two major groups of porcupines. We're going to include 67 00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:14.680 both in this episode, but mostly we're focusing on the 68 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:18.400 genus eryth Cool. Okay, great, So get suited up for 69 00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:22.319 a thrilling array of weird stories involving barbs, grounds, squeaks, 70 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:25.719 cartoonish noses, romantic gestures that will leave you wanting to 71 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:29.599 bleach your brain, counting quills, male models, flim flam about 72 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:32.199 quill removal, how to spot a porcupine in the wild, 73 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:38.560 and so much more with professor ecologist and a erythrosonologist. 74 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:59.000 Doctor Tim Bean, Tim Bean, he him. 75 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:01.039 Do you get called Jim Bean a lot? 76 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:04.159 Jim Beam? Yeah, and then sometimes like Kim for some 77 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:07.919 reason for to go orders confusing. 78 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:08.520 Tim Kim Jim Beam. 79 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:11.560 Yeah, as long as it's not mister Bean, I'm fine. 80 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:14.879 Do people ever call you doctor Porcupine? 81 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:15.199 No? 82 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:21.839 I feel like that's a really good Marvel character just 83 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:24.920 like shooting quills out of your wrist to people. 84 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:28.240 Yeah, well we'll get to that right, like what they Yeah. 85 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:35.360 Okay, Actually porcupines, I feel like underneath their quills, they 86 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:37.199 got to be the cuddliest little babies. 87 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:39.959 Yeah. I think that's what makes them so compelling, is 88 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:45.519 like they are dopey and lovable and sweet and almost 89 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:49.639 apologetic about the fact that they're unhuggable. 90 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:54.680 If you wanted to be in some sort of close 91 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:57.079 relationship with them, I feel like they would have avoidant 92 00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:58.759 attachment issues. 93 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:04.319 When I started this research there, I was like literally 94 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:06.160 to the point where I was googling how do you 95 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:09.560 pick up a porcupine? And there's a self help book 96 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.800 called how to Hug a Porcupine Easy Ways to Love 97 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:14.360 the Difficult People in your life. 98 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:20.319 So is there an easy way to handle a porcupine? 99 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:22.480 If you're a porcubine researcher, what kind of gloves are 100 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:23.000 you working with? 101 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:26.800 Yeah, a welding gloves, like thick, heavy leather gloves is 102 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.759 generally the recommendation. There's a spot under their tail that 103 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:33.759 doesn't have any quills, and their tail is super strong. 104 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:36.639 It's almost like a fifth appendage that they use to 105 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:39.720 help climb, and so that's generally how people try to 106 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:41.680 pick them up, is like get your hand under the 107 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:44.120 tail and grab them there and then you can kind 108 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:45.600 of pick them up. But at that point, like you 109 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:47.600 got to anesthetize them if you're really going to handle 110 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:50.279 them and measure them and put a collar on and 111 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:51.000 all that stuff. 112 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:55.079 By under the tail, is that they're junk necessarily or 113 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:56.240 is that in a different spot. 114 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:58.120 Though they're junk is hidden away most of the time, 115 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:01.480 so it's actually like retracted in to the body, which 116 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:03.720 makes it easier to climb right, Like they're right up 117 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:05.360 against the tree when they're climbing. 118 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:08.000 Must I remind us of the twenty twenty four Paris 119 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:12.399 pol malter, whose victory was thwarted by his own generous nethers, 120 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:17.000 a self betrayal of Olympic proportions. But Tim says that 121 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:19.399 a porcupine's tail, which is about the size of a mitten, 122 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:22.439 is covered in quills on the top, but on the 123 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:26.240 flip side just a haven of only guard hairs, and 124 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:30.120 in the colder months some soft fuzzy fur are quills 125 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:34.360 types of hairs or are they modified scales? I mean, 126 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:36.240 I'm going to get right into it because I'm like, 127 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:38.199 what the buck is going on? 128 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:41.920 Yeah, they are. They're modified hairs, so they're made of keratin. 129 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:44.959 And you sort of look at the evolutionary lineage of 130 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.560 porcupines and there's like these species called spiny rats that 131 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:51.680 have spines that are closely related, and then you can 132 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:55.519 kind of see like other porcupines have less evolved quills, 133 00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:57.759 and then you've got the North American porcupines that have 134 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:01.639 these really highly modified quills that are really awful if 135 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:02.120 you get. 136 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:03.720 Them in you really what are they like? 137 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:07.879 So North American porcupine quills have backwards facing barbs. The 138 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:10.000 quill itself is sharp, it gets in you, and then 139 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:12.360 there are these backward facing barbs that make it very 140 00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:16.160 difficult and painful to pull back out. And then they 141 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:18.759 also the backward facing barb means that if you don't 142 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:21.240 pull it out, the quills start to work its way 143 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:24.720 into you further and further or your dog, and then 144 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:26.920 that becomes a real problem if it actually gets in 145 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:28.680 your body and you got to go in and get 146 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:29.000 it out. 147 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:32.959 So with the very tip of an erythozantid eye or 148 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:37.759 North American porcupines quills are hundreds upon hundreds of tiny barbs, 149 00:07:37.879 --> 00:07:39.759 and for more on those, if you must, you can 150 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:42.680 see the twenty twelve paper micro Structured barbs on the 151 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:47.839 North American porcupine quill enable easy tissue penetration and difficult removal. 152 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:51.680 There you go. Now the genus Historics or African porcupines 153 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:55.759 sometimes called Old World porcupines. No barbs in case you 154 00:07:55.800 --> 00:08:00.360 have a choice of which type of porcupine can shank you. Oof. Okay, 155 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.839 you've mentioned other porcupines, and you mentioned North American porcupines. 156 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:06.639 I know you study North American ones, but are there 157 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:12.879 Eurasian porcupines? Are there? South American porcupines? Are there? African porcupines? 158 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:16.399 Yeah? All of those? And it's really confusing. So there's 159 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:20.759 two families capital f of porcupines. There's the Historycaday, which 160 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:25.319 are the African Eurasian porcupines, and there's like eleven species 161 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:29.160 of those, and then totally separately is the family of 162 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:34.440 North and South American porcupines rith izont today, where there's 163 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:37.320 about twenty species of those. And it's man, I've been 164 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.320 like looking the past week or two because I always 165 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:44.519 tell people that those two families, they like African and 166 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:48.000 Eurasian porcupines and the North and South Americans evolved separately, 167 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.519 and that they evolved quills independently from each other, and 168 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:55.360 like nobody seems to want to really go on record 169 00:08:55.399 --> 00:08:58.200 and say whether that's true or not, or whether they'll like, 170 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:00.720 you know, so they separated like ten to twenty million 171 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:03.879 years ago, and I think we just don't really know 172 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:09.240 whether that ancient rodent ancestor of the two groups had 173 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:12.279 some form of quill and then they split and they 174 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:15.000 continue to have quills, or if they evolved independently. But yeah, 175 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:17.639 so around the world there's like thirty species of porcupines, 176 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:20.799 but they're very different. The family of African and Eurasian 177 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:25.639 porcupines are much bigger, they're ground dwelling, the quills are 178 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:29.600 way longer, they're like a foot long, and I think 179 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:31.720 they're more aggressive, like a lot of the videos of 180 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:37.360 you know, porcupine like attacking leopard. Those are generally African 181 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:41.879 porcupines Eurasian porcupines, and then the North and South American 182 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:44.440 porcupines are more arboreal. They spend a lot of time 183 00:09:44.440 --> 00:09:47.480 in trees eating leaves, much shorter quills. 184 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:51.000 So we got about thirty species of porcupine, and the 185 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:54.320 African and North American ones are distantly related, and then 186 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:56.840 we got the South American ones with a big, bulbous, 187 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:01.240 pink nose and a tail like a monkey. African porcupines 188 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:04.519 can weigh up to sixty six pounds or thirty kilos, 189 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:08.559 and they're mostly veggie eaters who dig for roots and bulbs, 190 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:12.519 and they eat people's tuber crops, or they forage for 191 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:16.440 fruits or bark. Sometimes an African porcupine will eat a 192 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:19.799 dead body if it finds one, like roadkill, and sometimes 193 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:21.960 they hoard a bunch of bones to chew on in 194 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:25.600 their den if they need minerals. What's more, goth thousands 195 00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:28.519 of spikes striking fear into the hearts of your foes 196 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:33.080 and gnawing on bones in your underground cave. Not even 197 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:36.240 bats can compete with that. I did not know they 198 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:38.120 went so hard. I didn't know there were so many 199 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:41.519 branches of porcupine. Speaking of branches, do you think that 200 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:45.600 the adaptations needed to be a ground dweller versus a 201 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.879 tree dweller are different in terms of if you're in 202 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:50.919 the ground, more things are going to come and try 203 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:52.639 eat you. But if you're in the trees, you're gonna 204 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.639 encounter fewer jackals and stuff. 205 00:10:55.879 --> 00:10:59.799 Yeah, that's possible. Definitely is possible. Right, Like the defense 206 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:02.240 stuff is much more important if you're on the ground 207 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:05.000 and you're out, you know, digging around for roots and stuff. 208 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:07.440 The other part of it is, at least for North 209 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:12.240 American porcupines, they fall out of trees a lot, so 210 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:17.240 they're not super coordinated and they'll quill themselves and so 211 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:22.480 the yeah, and so I think there's probably some benefit 212 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:25.039 to having shorter quills in that case, Like it's breaking 213 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:26.639 a bunch off when you fall on the ground. Like 214 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:29.759 having shorter ones that are at least somewhat protected by 215 00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:31.759 the outer guard hairs is probably better. 216 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:33.559 Oh that's so embarrassing. 217 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:39.360 It's sad. I mean, So there's this incredible book by 218 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:46.320 Oldest Rose Uldsroze called The North American Porcupine. He's a 219 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:49.159 professor in New York City, and he talks about like 220 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:55.279 he examined porcupine skeletons and museums, and he was saying, 221 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:58.080 like a third of them have broken bones, which has 222 00:11:58.080 --> 00:11:59.799 got to be from falling out of trees. 223 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:05.679 Oh, my poor babies. Do they have like hollow bird bones, 224 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:09.240 or they're just not that good at balance. 225 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:10.840 They're just not that good a balance. 226 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:13.799 Imagine wearing a head piece that is like a fan 227 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:17.039 made of barbed spears, and it is your burden in 228 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:21.080 life to bear just trying to slink between branches to 229 00:12:21.159 --> 00:12:23.879 try to eat a salad made out of trees. You're 230 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:28.039 like weaving through an agility course, dressed like Rihanna at 231 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:31.559 the met Gala. But if diamonds were needles. 232 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:34.639 The like best morsels are probably out at the end 233 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:36.799 of the branches, and so I think they're probably taking 234 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:39.519 some risks going out on some thin limbs that they 235 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:40.399 probably shouldn't be. 236 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:46.120 I'm never complaining again. Ever, when the quills come out 237 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:49.080 in a predator, I've always wondered, do they just kind 238 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:52.399 of pop out easily like a lego snapping off, or 239 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:56.639 is it like painful, like getting getting your mustache waxed. 240 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:01.440 For the porcupine, they have this special mechanism where like 241 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:03.600 they're not just going to come out day to day. 242 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.440 You actually have to push into the skin, so like 243 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:10.399 something pushes on the top of the quill and then 244 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:13.679 that like releases the muscle that's holding it in and 245 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:17.480 then they come out Oh, so it is sort of 246 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:21.559 like waxing your mustache or legs or whatever. If you 247 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:25.039 just pull the quill out, that would probably be super painful. 248 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:28.120 But if they take their tail and like swack a 249 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:31.799 dog's face, that like engages this release mechanism that I 250 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:34.120 think probably does not hurt the porcupines. 251 00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:36.279 At least the dog would like to have a word. 252 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:39.840 Oh God, how did you get into porcupines? Of all things? 253 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:44.360 I know that you work on a few different animals, kangaroo, rats, 254 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:49.159 but how did your path lead you down this spiny road? 255 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:53.559 Yeah? So the practical answer is when I was applying 256 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:57.919 for my first faculty job at Humboldt State, everybody's asking 257 00:13:57.960 --> 00:13:59.279 me like, what are you going to study when you 258 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.440 get up here? And I'm giving all these like lame, 259 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:04.600 half assed answers because I just don't ever want to 260 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:08.600 think about research again. And then finally the final night, 261 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:10.519 second night, we go out to dinner with like all 262 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:12.879 the other faculty in the department, and they ask again, like, 263 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:14.360 what are you going to study if you get up here? 264 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:17.320 And I just it popped into my head. I had 265 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:19.000 seen this talk a couple of years ago by this 266 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:21.559 guy Rick Switzer, who does a lot of conservation work 267 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:24.759 in the Sierras and had done his graduate work on 268 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:28.120 porcupines in Nevada, and he was saying, we don't see 269 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:30.240 porcupines anymore, like they're not where they used to be 270 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:32.200 in the Sierras, and so I just blurted out like, 271 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:35.480 I don't know, maybe porcupines, and that clicked. Like everyone 272 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:37.559 around the table was like, Oh, that's such a great idea, 273 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:40.120 Like porcupines would be amazing, Like the students could go out, 274 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:43.399 they can do these behavioral observations. It's such a cool species. 275 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:46.759 And all the tribes in the area, like the Hoopa 276 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:49.759 and Uruk and the Karuk, have all been asking like 277 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:51.919 where are the porcupines. We used to have porcupines here 278 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:53.919 and we can't find them anymore. So that was sort 279 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:55.639 of I don't know if it got me the job, 280 00:14:55.639 --> 00:14:58.120 but it was just sort of this like light bulb moment, 281 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:00.720 and so yeah, started research up there when I got 282 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:01.080 the job. 283 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:03.480 Do you think that there was something in you that 284 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:07.039 made you say it, because everyone knows that porcupines are cool. 285 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:13.159 Yeah, I mean, yeah, they are. They're super cool, and 286 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:16.080 they're sort of they're kind of like, you know, we 287 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:19.080 talked about like a comics comic or a writer's writer. 288 00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:22.759 Like I think porcupines are kind of I think the 289 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.519 species that a lot of ecologists really like, but they're 290 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:31.840 sort of underappreciated and understudied. You know, everybody loves porcupines. 291 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:36.360 And also the thrill of the unapproachability of them. Yeah, 292 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:41.320 so porcupines are your favorite ecologist's favorite ecology. And I 293 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:45.200 have seen many photos and videos of porcupines willingly because 294 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:47.120 they live in my heart. And some of them have 295 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:51.279 faces like a Japanese cartoon with a tiny nose that's 296 00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:55.480 sometimes brown and fuzzy. They got little tenC fidgeting hands. 297 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:59.519 Other porcupines have a nose that looks like an oversized 298 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:03.080 pink marshmallow. What's going on with their nose? Why so 299 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:04.159 big and cute? 300 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:08.600 So they need to be able to smell really well. 301 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:13.080 And some of the noses of like porcupine accounts on 302 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:15.279 social media, I think some of those are our South 303 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:19.039 American species where they have this like big bald nose 304 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.000 that's kind of sticking out. North American porcupines also have 305 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:25.279 really big noses, but they're furred. But they just need 306 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:26.879 to have a really good sense of smell. I mean 307 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:29.799 they're full of ores. Most of what they eat is leaves, 308 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:32.919 and so they need to be able to smell where 309 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:36.480 the good leaves are and where the other porcupines are. So, yeah, 310 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:38.399 highly evolved nose to for scent. 311 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.480 Is it soft? It looks like a big pencil eraser. 312 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:44.480 I want to touch it. 313 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:46.080 That's exactly what it feels like. 314 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:49.960 Really, yeah, I want to touch it. 315 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:53.200 I want to touch the marshmallow. Nosy, what in your 316 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:59.039 job necessitates getting too common word boop? But get to 317 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:01.200 touch the nose of a pork? Like are they a 318 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:03.960 nestetized and you have to make sure their nose is 319 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:06.480 a certain temperature or is it purely just a perk 320 00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:07.000 of the job. 321 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.160 Yeah, the second one. So a lot of the research 322 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:13.880 we were doing was like studying their ecology in this 323 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:17.440 coastal dune forest in northern California. And the best way 324 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:19.240 to do that is to track them. So we would 325 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.279 catch them and esthetize them and get a radio collar 326 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:24.119 on them and kind of, you know, just measure them 327 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:28.640 for sex and reproductive status and weigh and ectoparasites and 328 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:31.319 stuff like that, and while they're sleeping, you know, you 329 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:33.480 get to look at them and feel their nose and 330 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:36.319 see what the bottom of their feet look like and 331 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:37.039 stuff like that. 332 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:39.839 How big we talk in when it comes to porcupines 333 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:40.599 in general. 334 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:44.480 North American porcupines are like is really variable. It's interesting. 335 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:47.559 Like Northeastern like New England porcupines I think, are a 336 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:51.400 little bit smaller. Alaskan porcupines can get up to about 337 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:52.720 twenty or thirty pounds. 338 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:56.000 Twenty to thirty pounds is like the size of a quirky, 339 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:58.079 but a quorki that's been bred with a. 340 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.400 Sea urchin, they're pretty big, I mean, And it's like 341 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.640 the ones that we have in northern California, Like it 342 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:08.599 definitely takes two arms to lift a large adult porcupine. 343 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:10.359 And two gloved arms. 344 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:14.519 Yeah, and you know, fleece and jacket and anything else 345 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:16.079 that you can use to protect yourself. 346 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:18.039 How many times do you think you've been barbed? 347 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:20.920 Not that many. So it turns out dogs are just 348 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:27.880 really stupid. It's really hard to get quilled, especially when 349 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:30.319 they're anesthetiz Like I said, you do have to like 350 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:35.200 push it in to engage the release, and so when 351 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.319 you're handling them and turning them over to examine the 352 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:39.640 underside and stuff like, you'll definitely get quills that kind 353 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:41.720 of just come out and stick in your shirt. But 354 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:45.240 to get truly quilled it happened a few times to 355 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.920 my students. I never got like one really deeply embedded 356 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:49.440 in my skin. 357 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:52.279 I did watch one YouTube video of Aldous Rose, another 358 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:55.920 porcupine legend, and his capture method is to cover them 359 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.880 with an old red aglue beer cooler which slides shut, 360 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:02.880 and then from there he can sed datum and then 361 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:05.319 take them out and take measurements for like twenty or 362 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:08.440 so minutes and then release them on their merry way. Now, 363 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:12.440 what if you get porcupined and you are a porcupine? 364 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:15.880 They have little pause that are good at grasping, and 365 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:18.240 they just got to do their best to reach the 366 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:21.920 ones embedded by their enemies. It's a risky life, but 367 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.279 they are armed. What kind of students do you have 368 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:30.400 that are drawn to this field all kinds? 369 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.839 That's a really interesting question. I think the stereotype of 370 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:38.640 wildlife ecologists is generally people who would rather be around 371 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:41.720 animals than other people, and so I guess that goes 372 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:43.640 sort of doubly for people who want to be around 373 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:47.119 a quelled animal. But yeah, all that. You know, it's 374 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.079 a mix of undergraduates and master's students, and they've all 375 00:19:50.119 --> 00:19:52.799 been just incredible. I mean, like so excited to work 376 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.319 with the species and so curious, and the porcupines we 377 00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.720 were studying just seem to elicit this like really incredible 378 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:03.240 curiosity about the species and the place they were living. 379 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:05.200 You know. I would go and visit and go up 380 00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:07.480 like during the summer when we were doing the research, 381 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:09.759 and they would be back at the field house and 382 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:13.839 like they would just not stop talking about porcupines like dinner, 383 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:16.640 like talk about this porcupine we saw today, like after dinner, like, 384 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:18.920 let's think about this other thing that we haven't talked about. 385 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:20.880 It is, like, you guys need to take a break 386 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:24.759 from thinking about porcupines. I can't stop. 387 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:26.680 Do you know that I just realized right now that 388 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.720 a porcupine actually inspired this entire podcast to exist, and 389 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:31.680 I have not thought about it until right now. 390 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:32.519 Is that true? 391 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:36.680 Yes? There's a guest named Phil Trurus who's amazing and 392 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:39.880 he's on now. He's on Expedition Unknown on Discovery, but 393 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:43.319 he studied butterflies in the jungle. But he was a 394 00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:46.039 friend before I started this podcast, and he once told 395 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:48.680 the story about how he was studying butterflies in the 396 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:54.160 jungles of Peru and he's also hunky to the point 397 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:58.599 where it's comical. And he's married to like a absolutely 398 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:02.720 beautiful Norwegian model and they're also incredibly nice, which is 399 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:08.000 infuriating maddening because they're good people. But to make his 400 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:13.079 way through Cornell, he modeled for Abercrommie. You're just like 401 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:17.000