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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 2: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. Good Evening, A and
Speaker 2: E Network has set at November premiere for the Killing
Speaker 2: Season docuseries from Oscar winning executive producer Alex Gibney from
Speaker 2: Going Clear Scientology in the Prison of Belief. This eight
Speaker 2: episode series follows documentarians Joshua Zeeman Cropsey and Rachel Mills
Speaker 2: from Killer Legends as they investigate one of the most bizarre,
Speaker 2: unsolved serial killer cases of our time, the deaths of
Speaker 2: ten sex workers discovered on Gilgo Beach, Long Island. Authorities
Speaker 2: believe these killings are the work of the Long Island
Speaker 2: serial killer, who after five years, remains at large, forging
Speaker 2: relationships with cyber sluice, journalists and victims families Zeemen and
Speaker 2: Mills uncover connections that suggest Long Island is just the beginning.
Speaker 2: Through their investigation, the pair discover connections to unsolved murders
Speaker 2: from Atlantic City to Daytona Beach and beyond, revealing that
Speaker 2: serial killers are targeting sex workers in record numbers while
Speaker 2: using the Internet as their virtual hunting ground. The Killing
Speaker 2: Season will premiere with back to back episodes November twelfth.
Speaker 2: The Killing Season, the A and E documentary series, premiering
Speaker 2: November twelfth with my special guest documentary and filmmakers Joshua
Speaker 2: Zeeman and Rachel Mills. Thank you very much for agreeing
Speaker 2: to this interview and welcome to the program. Joshua Zeeman
Speaker 2: and Rachel Mills. Thanks for having us, Thank you, thank
Speaker 2: you very much.
Speaker 4: This is.
Speaker 2: Powerful, this is important, gripping, disturbing, incredible. Congratulations. I give
Speaker 2: all the credit to this incredible investigation that you've undertaken
Speaker 2: and this project, The Killing Season. Now, Rachel, you were
Speaker 2: just a briefly your background to show the audience basically
Speaker 2: where you came from before this project. You're a producer
Speaker 2: and assistant director and you were known for Killer Legends
Speaker 2: just recently in twenty fourteen and Josh Zeeman, you were
Speaker 2: responsible for the Netflix Cropsy brilliant documentary in two thousand
Speaker 2: and nine, and you wrote and directed that, And you
Speaker 2: were both involved with Killer Legends, and you, as you say,
Speaker 2: investigated the origins of some of our most terrifying urban
Speaker 2: legends and true stories that may have inspired them. Now
Speaker 2: with this the Killing season, tell us, I guess, maybe, Rachel,
Speaker 2: tell us, what was the genesis of the Killing Season?
Speaker 2: How did it come to be that both of you
Speaker 2: people decided to do this? Tell us what those circumstances were?
Speaker 4: Sure, well, we both lived in New York and this
Speaker 4: first case, a yoga murder investigation was in Long Island,
Speaker 4: which is not such a jump hop and a skip
Speaker 4: away from where we are in New York. So the
Speaker 4: first set of bodies for bodies found within day to
Speaker 4: each other, back in twenty ten. So those bodies were
Speaker 4: discovered after a sex worker named Shannon Gilbert, a young woman,
Speaker 4: went and bishing back a year before, about a year before,
Speaker 4: so during her search, during the search with Shannon Gilbert,
Speaker 4: police ssembled upon these four sets of bodies along the
Speaker 4: Desolat Highway. Months after that, about six more bodies were found,
Speaker 4: not too far away, so a lot of carnage along
Speaker 4: one strip of highway out in Long Island, and with
Speaker 4: so many bodies, we thought that this case would be solved.
Speaker 4: But your one went by, your two went by, and
Speaker 4: it seemed to be no movement. So, you know, once
Speaker 4: about the third year went by, Josh and I were
Speaker 4: doing Killer Legends and we decided, well, you know what,
Speaker 4: this should be our next project, and we were going
Speaker 4: to do this as a documentary future. But after investigating
Speaker 4: the Gobi case, discovered that unfortunately, crimes such as these
Speaker 4: involving sex workers are happening all across the country and
Speaker 4: there seems to be not a lot of answers, very
Speaker 4: similar to that being the patent in Long Island.
Speaker 2: Now, Josh, you started, as you say in this that
Speaker 2: you started this investigation on Memorial Day with that investigation,
Speaker 2: How did you begin your investigation on Memorial Day into
Speaker 2: the Long Island serial killing case.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean one of the first things we were
Speaker 6: doing was, you know, interviewing sex workers and I think,
Speaker 6: you know what, there's a woman that you see in
Speaker 6: a series named super and we were drying having her
Speaker 6: around with her and it was just so fascinating because
Speaker 6: here was a woman who was escorting in the same
Speaker 6: you know kind of hunting grounds that the killer was using,
Speaker 6: and she didn't know that much about the case. I mean,
Speaker 6: she knew women had been killed, and you know, we
Speaker 6: were driving her around, taking her from a hotel to hotel,
Speaker 6: talking to her about you know, sex work and what
Speaker 6: she afraid. And what she didn't know is that Memorial
Speaker 6: Day was basically the start of the hunting season for
Speaker 6: this killer. It's believed that he found most of his
Speaker 6: victims during that time.
Speaker 2: And so.
Speaker 6: One of the reasons that she didn't know this was
Speaker 6: because the police weren't really telling anything to anybody. You know,
Speaker 6: it was unfathomable to me that with so many murders
Speaker 6: out there that the police at some point stopped talking
Speaker 6: to the general public, stop communicating to the general public.
Speaker 6: And you know, when that happens, people are going to speculate.
Speaker 6: And you know, that was one of the reasons that
Speaker 6: we decided to pick up a camera.
Speaker 2: Now let's go back to the story that you capture.
Speaker 2: So I mean vividly and disturbingly and grippingly. Let's go
Speaker 2: back to Shannon Gilbert, and as you talked about, you
Speaker 2: had access to this woman called super and you, at
Speaker 2: some point in this documentary go on a you you
Speaker 2: drive a prostitute around for a week, so you you
Speaker 2: really do see get a little slice of life from
Speaker 2: their own their own lens. So tell us about So
Speaker 2: tell us about the Shannon Gilbert and her real state
Speaker 2: of affairs. How long had she been a prostitute? What
Speaker 2: was her background? Just before this? Tell us of the
Speaker 2: case or the story of Shannon Gilbert to reveal how
Speaker 2: they discovered the other bodies on Gilgilt Beach.
Speaker 6: Well, that's one of the weird things here. You know. Basically,
Speaker 6: Shannon Gilbert is an escort. She's living in Jersey City
Speaker 6: and she gets a call from a prospective John out
Speaker 6: in this kind of very desolate area known as Oak Beach.
Speaker 6: And she has a driver, which is kind of interesting
Speaker 6: because you know, a driver is not like a pimp.
Speaker 6: It's just someone who's driving her out to where she's going.
Speaker 4: And she goes.
Speaker 6: She meets John by the name of Joseph Brewer. They
Speaker 6: you know, party for a couple hours and then something happens.
Speaker 6: We don't quite know exactly what it is, but Brewer's
Speaker 6: been very open with police and he says that Shannon
Speaker 6: starts to freak out. Something must have happened, something must
Speaker 6: have spooked her, and he calls the driver who's waiting outside.
Speaker 6: The driver comes in, a man by the name of
Speaker 6: Michael Pack. They try and bring Shannon kind of back
Speaker 6: to the car to get her out, and she's like
Speaker 6: hiding behind the couch. She's so freaked out. At some point,
Speaker 6: Brewer reaches for her, you know, to kind of pull
Speaker 6: her outside of his house, and she freaks out. She
Speaker 6: runs outside. She apparently trips and falls, gets back up,
Speaker 6: and then she starts to run through this kind of
Speaker 6: seaside community.
Speaker 4: By the way.
Speaker 6: It's very isolated. It's about twenty twenty five minutes away
Speaker 6: from any store or anything like that. And she's knocking
Speaker 6: on neighbors doors, screaming for help. She knocks on a
Speaker 6: couple of neighbors doors, some answers, some don't. One of them,
Speaker 6: a guy by the name Gus, kind of invites her
Speaker 6: to her inside. This is about five o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 6: and she is screaming they're trying to kill her. She's hysterical,
Speaker 6: and he says he's going to call the police. She
Speaker 6: says no, don't call the police. She runs back down
Speaker 6: the stairs and kind of runs through this community. Meanwhile,
Speaker 6: Michael Pack, who's her driver, is searching for and to
Speaker 6: make a long story short, she basically runs down the
Speaker 6: street towards the water and it's never seen from again.
Speaker 6: And it's at this point that kind of the real
Speaker 6: mystery begins. The police eventually come a couple hours later,
Speaker 6: and at that point, Shannon had made a phone call
Speaker 6: to nine on one on her cell phone, and Shannon
Speaker 6: didn't really know where she was, so she said she
Speaker 6: was near Jones Beach, so she is routed to the
Speaker 6: state police. In fact, Shannon is not really in Jones'
Speaker 6: Beach anymore. She's in a different area. She's actually just
Speaker 6: right across the county line. So the call gets transferred
Speaker 6: to Jones Beach and then it gets transferred to another
Speaker 6: law enforcement agency on the Suffolk County side, And basically
Speaker 6: she's on the phone for like, I think twenty one
Speaker 6: to twenty three minutes, kind of screaming for help and
Speaker 6: all these other things, and then her phone goes dead
Speaker 6: and so she could never tell the police when she
Speaker 6: was on the phone where she was. And the only
Speaker 6: reason the police came was because the neighbors who had
Speaker 6: called her, and so there's a little bit of a
Speaker 6: you know, disconnect there between Shannon's nine one one call
Speaker 6: and then the neighbor's nine one one calls, and in
Speaker 6: fact that connection is never made. The two law enforcementgencies
Speaker 6: never sync up. And what basically happens is the driver
Speaker 6: goes home, he doesn't know what happens to her, and
Speaker 6: then Shannon's boyfriend calls the driver when she doesn't come home,
Speaker 6: and then they try and file a missing persons report.
Speaker 6: We hear at or was told Basically, when the boyfriend
Speaker 6: and the john go to file missing person's report in
Speaker 6: stuff A County, there's some may kind of left, you know,
Speaker 6: because sex workers. You know, she's a sex worker. You know,
Speaker 6: she probably just ran out, That's what they said, and
Speaker 6: there's a definitely fumbling of the missing person's case. Shannon,
Speaker 6: as I mentioned before, was from Jersey City, so you know,
Speaker 6: there's some unknown idea of where the missing person's report
Speaker 6: should be filed Jersey City, where she's from, or Suffolk
Speaker 6: County where she disappears from. And Shannon's missing person's report
Speaker 6: neither law enforcement agency really wants to kind of take
Speaker 6: the missing person's report. So there's all these factors that
Speaker 6: lead up to the fact that no one is kind
Speaker 6: of looking for Shannon for a couple of days. Now,
Speaker 6: the crazy thing is, Shannon no one can find her,
Speaker 6: and it basically takes more than a year for that
Speaker 6: to happen. So while the police, you know, they spend
Speaker 6: a couple of days, even weeks looking for her, they
Speaker 6: can't find her. Nobody knows what happens. But meanwhile, one
Speaker 6: of the cadaver dogs and the trainer who had been
Speaker 6: searching for Shannon basically had been using that same area
Speaker 6: a couple months later to train his dog, and the
Speaker 6: dog stumbles upon the bodies of four other escorts sex
Speaker 6: workers who have been found wrapped in burlap about a
Speaker 6: mile and a half away from where Shannon disappeared, and
Speaker 6: that kind of jump starts the whole story.
Speaker 2: Now, Rachel, just the part that in the documentary that
Speaker 2: you and Josh do is to talk to somebody, the
Speaker 2: police and get their opinion on Shannon Gilbert in the
Speaker 2: likelihood of this being an accident, and that's what they
Speaker 2: chalked it up to. But you also talk again, have
Speaker 2: incredible access to people in the family, so tell us
Speaker 2: the difference between those two interviews of their opinions on
Speaker 2: what happened to Shannon.
Speaker 4: Sure, well, just to be transparent, the only we did
Speaker 4: not talk to any active police in the first few
Speaker 4: episodes that that felty probably changes later on. But we
Speaker 4: talked to Dormer, who is the ex police commissioner of
Speaker 4: Zuppa County, and he does believe that Shannon's death was
Speaker 4: an accident, that she simply drowned in the marsh and expired. Now,
Speaker 4: the thing is is that the police have been pretty
Speaker 4: tight lipped. The family would probably argue that they haven't
Speaker 4: heard from the police for quite a while, and when
Speaker 4: you don't hear from police, you know, it creates a
Speaker 4: void of information, and they'rein rates a lot of speculation.
Speaker 4: And also, you know, this is this is the family
Speaker 4: members who have not a lot of answers. You know,
Speaker 4: the twenty three minute nine on one call has not
Speaker 4: been released, and I understand their argument that if the
Speaker 4: police are saying it is an accident, then why wouldn't
Speaker 4: they release a twenty three minute nine one one call.
Speaker 4: There doesn't seem to be a lot of reason that
Speaker 4: if they do agree that it is an accident, why
Speaker 4: they wouldn't release that. So the family is simply looking
Speaker 4: for answers, and they do believe that there was some
Speaker 4: kind of foul play with Shannon's death. Now, you know,
Speaker 4: Josh and I are on the side that you know,
Speaker 4: there's she probably did expire in that marsh. However, that
Speaker 4: doesn't mean she didn't meet someone during her twenty three
Speaker 4: minute journey running up and down the the dark streets
Speaker 4: of Oak Beach. You know, we don't know if someone
Speaker 4: gave her something that you know, uh, combined with maybe
Speaker 4: another drug she took that led her to go into
Speaker 4: that marsh. And that marsh is very very cold, you know,
Speaker 4: long long islands, I mean, you're it's a small stretch
Speaker 4: of land between a bay and an ocean. The winds
Speaker 4: are very strong, even in the beginning of May, which
Speaker 4: which is when she when when she died in that marsh.
Speaker 4: Josh and I went out there and and I was breething,
Speaker 4: you know, and I had gloves, I had goloshes on,
Speaker 4: and you know, she supposedly stripped there and went through it.
Speaker 4: So it doesn't surprise me that the elements can get
Speaker 4: you when when you get into that marsh. So you know,
Speaker 4: there's I think there's a lot of unanswered questions in
Speaker 4: in the Shannon Gilbert case. And again, if if they
Speaker 4: do really believe that, then that it is totally accidental
Speaker 4: and she did drowns. Just release release the twenty three
Speaker 4: minute phone call so we can move on and investigate
Speaker 4: the rest of these murders, because when we talk about
Speaker 4: Shannon Gilbert, the attention goes to her, which is understandable,
Speaker 4: but there's also another you know, nine bodies, five of
Speaker 4: which are unidentified, which could lead to a lot of
Speaker 4: answers and the go go investigation.
Speaker 2: Now, what you do is you introduce I guess to
Speaker 2: the world, the people the rest of the world that
Speaker 2: doesn't know about websluse dot com. And you also introduce
Speaker 2: a character, you say, an amateur profiler that you vetted
Speaker 2: through pretty interesting process to be able to believe that
Speaker 2: what he is saying is credible. And this is a
Speaker 2: Peter Brent. So tell us about web sluse and the
Speaker 2: rise of this crowd solving community, and also what Peter
Speaker 2: had said initially about Shannon Gilbert and the relation to
Speaker 2: the Long Island serial killer and what he had and
Speaker 2: then his thoughts about the Long Island serial killer.
Speaker 6: I mean, this goes back to the idea that you know,
Speaker 6: after three years, the police, you know, stopped talking to
Speaker 6: the public, and you know, I guess they stopped talking
Speaker 6: because you know, they really didn't have any answers. And
Speaker 6: as a result, as we were saying, when you stop
Speaker 6: speaking to the public, you start to get a lot
Speaker 6: of speculation, and especially in you know, in this kind
Speaker 6: of digital age that we're living in, and so there
Speaker 6: was an explosion of speculation on the Internet. Now what's
Speaker 6: very interesting is that a lot of this speculation was
Speaker 6: in a lot of different forms. People were trolling each other,
Speaker 6: sniping each other, calling each other the killer, the whole
Speaker 6: nine yards. That's in a very unorganized way. But you know,
Speaker 6: the Internet, you know, when it comes to true crime.
Speaker 6: What we've noticed is there's been this real rise in
Speaker 6: the internet sleuth thing. And one of the places that's
Speaker 6: very good about internet sleuthing is a site called web Sluice.
Speaker 6: And you know, this explosion of kind of looking at
Speaker 6: theories and clues really started. And then Joe Bane Ramsey case.
Speaker 6: But you know, it also like took on a life
Speaker 6: of its own in the list case because there was
Speaker 6: so much speculation. So because the police weren't saying anything,
Speaker 6: we went to web slue. We wanted to hear what
Speaker 6: people were saying. And on web slue we met this
Speaker 6: guy Peter Brent. And you know, everybody says there's a
Speaker 6: lot of kind of crazy crackpots on web slue, and
Speaker 6: you know, we definitely saw that. But but we could
Speaker 6: also tell that there were other people who seemed to
Speaker 6: know what they were talking about. One of them was Peter,
Speaker 6: and I remember we kind of called him up and
Speaker 6: he right off the bat, you know, he seemed to
Speaker 6: know exactly what he was talking about. And I remember
Speaker 6: I even gave him some of the case files from
Speaker 6: Cropsy to see if he knew what he was talking about,
Speaker 6: and he did. And one of Peter's initial things that
Speaker 6: he gave us was saying, you know, hey, listen, you
Speaker 6: know I don't believe Shannon is connected, and he gave
Speaker 6: some really interesting reasons, and he also kind of said,
Speaker 6: you know, it's the problem is the suff the county police,
Speaker 6: you know, they kind of they botched the case. And
Speaker 6: so we started to really connect with Peter, and what
Speaker 6: he was saying was very interesting. A lot of things
Speaker 6: that I didn't know at the time, like, for example,
Speaker 6: the behavioral profiling unit that was made famous in the
Speaker 6: Silence of the Lambs, Like that agency has been gutted.
Speaker 6: All those profilers have been taken over and are now
Speaker 6: working on counter terrorism, so kind of no one has
Speaker 6: left to really look at serial killers anymore. And so
Speaker 6: he just opened up this whole fascinating world us, whether
Speaker 6: it's the amount of serial killers who are really out there,
Speaker 6: or the fact that you know, he believes and people
Speaker 6: now say, I had no idea that in New York
Speaker 6: City alone there are six active serial killers at any
Speaker 6: one time, and that was just shocking to me.
Speaker 2: Another statistic that is very important to this story, and
Speaker 2: I think it will be very important to the future
Speaker 2: of being able to profile these killers and addressing this
Speaker 2: problem even remotely, and that is that you cite a
Speaker 2: statistic about how many serial killers or how many the
Speaker 2: percentage of prostitutes that were killed at one time as
Speaker 2: opposed to the percentage of prostitutes are killed by serial
Speaker 2: killers today.
Speaker 4: And why right, Yeah, it's interesting. It's a statistic I
Speaker 4: didn't know either, but makes a lot of sense when
Speaker 4: you start thinking about it. I think from the nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy we learned that serial murder involving sex workers increased
Speaker 4: by I believe it's seventy percent. You know, back in
Speaker 4: the seventies and the sixties and seventies, serial killers are
Speaker 4: going after runaways, sorority girls, hitchhikers, you know. But in
Speaker 4: this trackable society that we live in now, they know,
Speaker 4: the killers know who to go who to go after,
Speaker 4: And those are the people who are living on the fringes.
Speaker 4: Those are the people who are trying to evade law
Speaker 4: enforcement themselves. Those are the people who are using burner
Speaker 4: cell phones, who are dealing in cash transactions, who are
Speaker 4: posted to pack backpage in criklist. You know, we think
Speaker 4: that everyone you know can be connected by an IP
Speaker 4: address or a phone number, or obviously they can track something.
Speaker 4: But you know, these women are smart and they want
Speaker 4: to continue doing business the way that they are, and
Speaker 4: to do that they need to be not trackable. And
Speaker 4: these serial killers know that. They know that. For one,
Speaker 4: just technologically they're not trackable. In addition, these women are
Speaker 4: living on the fringes and do move around a lot,
Speaker 4: and do go underground, and in some cases are being
Speaker 4: controlled by pimps themselves, and so they know that, and
Speaker 4: they know also that you know, sometimes a lot of
Speaker 4: police agencies don't take they're missing persons cases seriously. In
Speaker 4: addition to if sex worker comes up dead, may not
Speaker 4: have that at the top of their priority because they're
Speaker 4: not a blond hair, blue eyes doority girls and they
Speaker 4: don't have uh a community banging down on their doors
Speaker 4: to solve a case which is complete lightly tragic. So yeah,
Speaker 4: that's that's the statistic I did not know, and it
Speaker 4: is very fast.
Speaker 2: Let's get back to Gilgo Beach and we just touched
Speaker 2: on the how the four bodies were buried and arranged.
Speaker 2: You talked to you discussed Josh with with Peter about
Speaker 2: the significance of how they were buried, we'll say, for
Speaker 2: example and the bur laugh. And so before we get
Speaker 2: into the other bodies that are found later, let's talk
Speaker 2: about those four bodies and what you and Peter discussed
Speaker 2: and what your conclusion was in the film at least
Speaker 2: about the long eye and ceiling, the serial killer and
Speaker 2: those four bodies.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, look, those four bodies. They're known as
Speaker 6: the Gilgo Beach for and that's because the signature is
Speaker 6: pretty much the same sex worker, kind kind of around
Speaker 6: the same you know, height and size, all wrapped in burlap.
Speaker 6: All they were skeletonized, but they weren't dismembered, and they
Speaker 6: were kind of dumped in the brush about five hundred
Speaker 6: feet from each other in this kind of very specific section.
Speaker 6: So that's kind of very much one signature. And you know,
Speaker 6: as Peter was telling us, you know, this is very
Speaker 6: much collection behavior. You know, this guy likes to probably
Speaker 6: drive along the highway knowing that you know, he's buried
Speaker 6: these bodies there. You know, a lot of returning to
Speaker 6: the scene of the crime. Maybe he stops, maybe he doesn't.
Speaker 6: But you know, these women, because their signature is so
Speaker 6: specific because of the graveyard staging, because of how the
Speaker 6: bodies were wrapped in burlap, they get one to one signature,
Speaker 6: and they're known as the Gilgo Beach four.
Speaker 2: So, now tell us the circumstances of the investigation. How again,
Speaker 2: we already know that that this investigation is stymied obviously, yep.
Speaker 2: But give us the circumstances in which other bodies are discovered.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm sorry, go ahead, Rach, Yeah, I was just
Speaker 4: going to say, I mean, after the four were found
Speaker 4: in December twenty and ten. Over the next four months,
Speaker 4: I believe it was another five bodies were found that
Speaker 4: continue to be unidentified. That includes a mother and child,
Speaker 4: a mother and toddler, an Asian male who is found
Speaker 4: in women's clothing, another woman on whose body parts were
Speaker 4: found years before, to actually two women whose body parts
Speaker 4: were found years before, and did another set of their
Speaker 4: body parts were found during those months, So you still
Speaker 4: have five unidentified remains, which is huge in my opinion
Speaker 4: to be a source of clues to positively solve an investigation.
Speaker 4: I think that's actually one.
Speaker 6: Of the biggest.
Speaker 4: Ways that you could solve this case is to identify
Speaker 4: one of those unidentified people. And you know, we talk
Speaker 4: about web flues and we worked with the gentleman on
Speaker 4: websites whose name is Carl Kay, who's had I think
Speaker 4: about five or six matches of linking up missing persons
Speaker 4: with unidentified remains, and that is one of the best
Speaker 4: things webs flues is good at. So you know, we
Speaker 4: know there is information that the police have that they
Speaker 4: have not yet released, and I hope that they do,
Speaker 4: and maybe they will after.
Speaker 6: The show airs.
Speaker 4: For instance, they have clothing from Asian male. He was
Speaker 4: dressed in women's clothing. They could release the photo of
Speaker 4: that dress. Someone might have seen that person. We think
Speaker 4: that he wasn't sex workers, So you have an Asian
Speaker 4: male sex worker in women's clothing. We also know that
Speaker 4: he had a length. So that's a lot that's actually
Speaker 4: it doesn't sound like mu community, but that's a lot
Speaker 4: to go on. So they simply, you know, release an
Speaker 4: information that could be a huge clue. In addition to that,
Speaker 4: the mother and toddler who were thrown seven miles away
Speaker 4: from each other, and which I think that pretty much
Speaker 4: the killer did know what he was doing to separate
Speaker 4: those bodies, but the toddler was wrapped in a blanket,
Speaker 4: you know, another fabric that they have, and it's a child.
Speaker 6: There.
Speaker 4: There's family members out there who I'm sure know that
Speaker 4: this this child is missing.
Speaker 6: So as far as.
Speaker 4: Status on these additional bodies, there's a wealth of information
Speaker 4: out there and it's hopefully it'll just take time for
Speaker 4: the case to unfortunately go even more cold to where
Speaker 4: the police will feel compelled to finally reach out to
Speaker 4: the public with information they've held back for so long.
Speaker 6: And can I say something else about these bodies. So,
Speaker 6: you know, we were talking before about the Gilgobaes four.
Speaker 6: These bodies, interestingly enough, have a completely different signature. These
Speaker 6: bodies were not wrapped in burlap and for the most part,
Speaker 6: they were dismembered. Also, you know, they were the body
Speaker 6: parts that we're seeing here, they're pretty much identification body parts, hands, forearms, head,
Speaker 6: things like that. Now, Rachel had mentioned that there were
Speaker 6: six bodies, and it's very interesting. One of those bodies
Speaker 6: a woman who is known as Fire Island Jane Doe.
Speaker 6: Now what's interesting about her. Part of her body parts
Speaker 6: were found along this stretch of road called Ocean Parkway,
Speaker 6: but her severed legs were actually found on another barrier
Speaker 6: island just north of Gilgo Beach called Fire Island, and
Speaker 6: those legs were discovered in nineteen ninety six. Now that's
Speaker 6: where you start to bring in these questions if you're
Speaker 6: a forensics guy, saying, huh, nineteen ninety six and the
Speaker 6: GB four, these four women were found in two thousand
Speaker 6: and ten. Wow, that's quite a long time for a
Speaker 6: single killer to be active. Now there's something else to
Speaker 6: that you should start to question.
Speaker 2: Here.
Speaker 6: Two of those two of these same dismembered body parts.
Speaker 6: The other half. Let's say, of these two women, one
Speaker 6: is known as Chando number six and the other one
Speaker 6: whose name we do know, Jessica Taylor. There are other halfs.
Speaker 6: They're torsos pretty much, were found in Manorville. Now Manorville
Speaker 6: is there another desolate area. But this is like the woods.
Speaker 6: This is called the pine barrens of Long Island. And
Speaker 6: they were found over forty miles away. So you start
Speaker 6: to get confused. I mean, look at all the different
Speaker 6: body parts we're talking about. Look at the different signatures
Speaker 6: that we're talking about. We've got women who are found
Speaker 6: half their body parts are found here, half their body
Speaker 6: parts are found forty miles away. You've got another woman
Speaker 6: whose body part, whose legs are found in nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 6: It starts to bring up a lot of questions about
Speaker 6: different signatures and length of time and what is really
Speaker 6: going on here. And this basically gets to one of
Speaker 6: the core questions of this case, which is how many
Speaker 6: serial killers are we really talking about here? And I
Speaker 6: remember when we first heard about this case and somebody
Speaker 6: started whispering that it may not just be one serial killer,
Speaker 6: but in fact two. I thought that was somebody who
Speaker 6: was making it up. It tended to me like a movie.
Speaker 6: But after looking at this case, and it's extremely complicated.
Speaker 6: If I've confused you, that is what the killers have
Speaker 6: obviously intended to happen. And I now do believe in
Speaker 6: fact that it is two killers, which goes against the
Speaker 6: former Commissioner Richard Dormer's theory. But some other police, including
Speaker 6: the current District Attorney, do believe it's two killers. And
Speaker 6: to me, the fact in this day and age, we
Speaker 6: can have all these different body parts and we know
Speaker 6: so much through CSI and forensics, yet for there to
Speaker 6: be such question among experts is really shocking to me.
Speaker 2: What's fascinating is that you take it to the web
Speaker 2: Sluice and Peter. And what does Peter deduce about the
Speaker 2: two He agrees with you about two serial killers book,
Speaker 2: what does he say? It's very it's very dramatic.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean Peter's German, right, so he you know,
Speaker 6: he has a great style of saying things, and like
Speaker 6: we say, he's very good for TV. He goes, you're
Speaker 6: not dancing with one serial killer, you're dancing with two.
Speaker 6: And but what Peter says and what I found the
Speaker 6: most fascinating is that, you know, when you hear about
Speaker 6: two serial killers operating in the same area, you usually
Speaker 6: think they're working together. But what he says is, in fact,
Speaker 6: they're in competition. And he believes we're dealing with two
Speaker 6: different serial killers. One the list killer known as the
Speaker 6: Long Island serial killer, who's killed the GB four. And
Speaker 6: then we have this other serial killer known as the
Speaker 6: Manorville Butcher. And this guy, this Manerville Butcher, he calls
Speaker 6: him a Torso killer. Now, Peter, you know a lot
Speaker 6: of what Peter says. Trust me, We go in and
Speaker 6: we do a lot of background check, like it is
Speaker 6: Peter really right?
Speaker 2: Is he?
Speaker 6: You know, we didn't know during the whole show whether
Speaker 6: he was, you know, kind of taking us for a ride.
Speaker 6: And Torso killers are really a special special breed. They
Speaker 6: come up a little bit in history. There's the Cleveland
Speaker 6: Torso Killer, which is a very interesting case for everybody
Speaker 6: who's kind of into that stuff. There's some believe the
Speaker 6: Black Galia killer is related to Torso killing. And then
Speaker 6: there is probably one of the most famous Torso killers
Speaker 6: of all time, which is the Whitehall Chapel murderer. Uh
Speaker 6: And again This goes back to the idea of Torso
Speaker 6: killers are very competitive, and that may be actually what
Speaker 6: happened in a Jack the Ripper case. You had Jack
Speaker 6: the Ripper and then you had the Whitehall Chapel murders.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Now let's get to one of the most profound
Speaker 2: parts of this well, I mean the entire series is profound,
Speaker 2: but early on you have an interview with Melissa Barthomily
Speaker 2: I'll probably mispronounced the name, and then the sister so
Speaker 2: tell us her story and this frightening phone call that
Speaker 2: they get years later, tell us her story.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Melissa went missing, if I'm not mistaken, which I
Speaker 4: definitely could be, in two thousand and nine, and she
Speaker 4: went missing from uh from Manhattan. Supposedly she had gotten
Speaker 4: a thousand dollars out call and was headed to Long Island.
Speaker 4: That's about all that we know. Fast forward. I believe
Speaker 4: it was only a few days.
Speaker 6: Is that right, Josh, I don't think it was a
Speaker 6: few days. I think it a few weeks.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and her sister, Amanda, you know her. Her sister
Speaker 4: Amanda was actually supposed to go see her only a
Speaker 4: couple of days after she went missing, so they knew
Speaker 4: something was wrong. Very early, they continue to try to
Speaker 4: call her, no answer, no answer, and then all of
Speaker 4: a sudden they received this phone call from Melissa's phone.
Speaker 4: It came up on call her ideas Melissa. So of
Speaker 4: course they're you know, relieves that Melissa's okay and and calling.
Speaker 4: But Amanda answers the phone and it's it's a guy
Speaker 4: on the other end of the line. And he tells Amanda,
Speaker 4: who's very young at this point, I believe she's only
Speaker 4: about sixteen years old and very close with her sister,
Speaker 4: told her that you know, he has Melissa and that
Speaker 4: I don't remember the specifics right now, but over the
Speaker 4: course of the next few weeks, he continued to call
Speaker 4: her and torment her with was what he was doing
Speaker 4: with Melissa at the time, with the last phone call,
Speaker 4: saying that he had killed his sister, her sister, and
Speaker 4: maybe one day he'll go and show her where he's body,
Speaker 4: where where she's buried. That's the biggest clue right now
Speaker 4: that I think we know exists that of the killer.
Speaker 4: I don't think this is a frank phone call at all.
Speaker 4: I think this was really the killer who killed who
Speaker 4: called her. Unfortunately, you know, this is back six years ago,
Speaker 4: technology wasn't as as great as is now. It's it's
Speaker 4: unknown whether they were able to really trace the call.
Speaker 4: If they were when they traced it, you know, it
Speaker 4: was traced too to midtown near the Long Island Railroad
Speaker 4: near Penn Station. So there's speculation whether that guy was
Speaker 4: a commuter who was in Long Island. Did he just
Speaker 4: go there because he knew that a lot of other
Speaker 4: people it's a Victorius attraction, would be there. So even
Speaker 4: if they did trace the call, they couldn't tend point
Speaker 4: it to him. But but it's really interesting and it's
Speaker 4: really tragic and sad that, you know, she she's the
Speaker 4: only person we know who's actually spoken to him, and
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's sick and twisted that he continued
Speaker 4: not only to torment Melissa, but God is rock so
Speaker 4: oft and tormenting the family as well.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, what we do know from killers, what
Speaker 6: we do know from UH an expert on I think
Speaker 6: it's post murder communication. Rachw's his name. Do you remember
Speaker 6: that gentleman's name? He was awesome here. Oh yeah, that's right,
Speaker 6: who's wrote numerous articles on you know, this idea of
Speaker 6: the communication that happened after and you know this is
Speaker 6: this could be very similar to you know, the kind
Speaker 6: of either the Jimmy Breslin, son of Sam communications, although
Speaker 6: that's actually in reality different, but or the zodiac, which
Speaker 6: this is probably more of. But you know, it's a
Speaker 6: way for these killers to continue to kind of relive
Speaker 6: the fantasy basically that same killing by kind of tormenting
Speaker 6: the sister. I mean, he said, I hear your half breathed,
Speaker 6: you know, do you know that your sister did you know?
Speaker 6: Indicating the fact that you know, some judgment on the
Speaker 6: fact that she was a sex worker. So it's really
Speaker 6: tragic what happened, but we do believe in the fact
Speaker 6: that is the biggest mistake that the killer has made
Speaker 6: to date.
Speaker 2: You also, I don't I want to elaborate just a bit,
Speaker 2: because you do have like in the book a part
Speaker 2: of me in the series that you talk about that
Speaker 2: he called and he said to Amanda, who was fourteen
Speaker 2: or fifteen, are you a whore like your sister? And
Speaker 2: that was very important, the word and the language that
Speaker 2: he used in that call. And then you also spoke
Speaker 2: to Peter as well. You discussed with Peter as well
Speaker 2: the significance of this again this communication, and also he
Speaker 2: mentions at the end that he said, listen, I've killed
Speaker 2: your sister. I've finally killed your sister. I'm going to
Speaker 2: watch your body rot and maybe someday I'll come and
Speaker 2: get you to go, come and see. And so it's
Speaker 2: very powerful when you have the father explaining that, and
Speaker 2: then you have the sister just in silhouette explaining her story.
Speaker 2: Very very powerful. But what does Peter believe about that communication?
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Speaker 2: A long I stilling killer in terms of significance, in
Speaker 2: terms of evidentiary value, that being the first UH verse contact.
Speaker 6: I don't know Rich. What does he say about that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's a good question. I mean we talk
Speaker 4: about we talk about like trying to figure out where
Speaker 4: he went wrong, like where can we find his like
Speaker 4: so so so, Peter says, with Marie brainder Burnes, who
Speaker 4: arguably his first victim, you know, go back to her
Speaker 4: because you'll see him in his forming stages and see
Speaker 4: where he may have tripped up. Now do you wanna
Speaker 4: do you want to give this away?
Speaker 6: Josh?
Speaker 4: Yeah, go ahead, Okay. Now, Sarah Karnes, who was with
Speaker 4: Marine Brainard Barnes the night she went missing, and she's
Speaker 4: the first of the Go Go Beach four to go
Speaker 4: missing back in two thousand and seven. Her friend Sarah
Speaker 4: was with her that night, last person to see her,
Speaker 4: Sarah says. Two weeks through the day she receives a call,
Speaker 4: and she does believe the person who called her, who
Speaker 4: said are you friends with Marie? Marie was Marine's street name,
Speaker 4: her cargo name, and she said, you know she's fine,
Speaker 4: she's in a whorehouse and queen so you you brought
Speaker 4: up the word war you know, if if that was him,
Speaker 4: which Sarah Carnes is is convinced it was him, he's using.
Speaker 6: The word whore, which a lot of people don't use.
Speaker 4: And so you know that could have been a mistake
Speaker 4: early on that he made. So you know, if he's
Speaker 4: still active, he you know, he he could be he
Speaker 4: could have moved on. He could be in prison, he
Speaker 4: could be dead, he could be in a latent period
Speaker 4: and his killing. But he sounds like he is a
Speaker 4: person who does really enjoy the communication factor, enjoy continuing
Speaker 4: that tormenting of people.
Speaker 6: Who are close to these victims.
Speaker 4: So if that is true and he has continued doing
Speaker 4: what he's doing, it wouldn't surprise me if he if
Speaker 4: he does continue killing, that he will communicate with those
Speaker 4: with those close to the people he has killed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now, Josh tell us about the further involvement with
Speaker 2: web slues and how they uncover an actual name from
Speaker 2: the Suffolx County Police Department. Right, so this is very
Speaker 2: exciting and well, you know that wasn't a web slutor.
Speaker 6: But that was actually one that was actually our uh so,
Speaker 6: one of our associate producers. But she much liked the
Speaker 6: websites kind of just you know, trolls the Internet looking
Speaker 6: for information and you know, as she says, I had
Speaker 6: no idea about this. That Wikipedia is community, you know, sourced,
Speaker 6: and you can go in on Wikipedia. And what she
Speaker 6: wanted to do is she just wanted to see what
Speaker 6: people were doing in terms of like vandalizing the Lisk
Speaker 6: Wikipedia page. And she finds in the history somebody had
Speaker 6: put a proper name, a gentleman's name, and we kind
Speaker 6: of pull up the gentleman's name and we see that
Speaker 6: he is currently he's been charged. Theoretically, he's a corrections
Speaker 6: officer and he's been charged with harassing some women in
Speaker 6: the Suffolk County prison. And we you know, that's interesting
Speaker 6: for sure, but of course it could be trolled. I mean,
Speaker 6: there's so much trolling. But the most interesting thing was
Speaker 6: the person who posted the information seems to have posted
Speaker 6: from inside the Suffolk County Police Department, because that's where
Speaker 6: the IP address was from. And so that raises a
Speaker 6: whole bunch of questions. Is it somebody who believes that
Speaker 6: this guy did it and somehow, you know, they don't
Speaker 6: have the evidence. Is it an example of trolling? I mean,
Speaker 6: just the idea that somebody from inside the Suffa County
Speaker 6: Police Department or somebody using that IP address posts a
Speaker 6: name to Wikipedia, suddenly calls into a whole bunch of questions.
Speaker 6: Is it the guy or you know, what kind of
Speaker 6: control is happening at Suffer County Police Department? Is that
Speaker 6: just you know, trolling from inside? I mean, so we
Speaker 6: ended up looking at that guy and that was very
Speaker 6: interesting kind of I think we did an interesting job
Speaker 6: of you know, kind of sourcing whether he was involved
Speaker 6: or not. But I think this is the idea this
Speaker 6: is it's kind of like a perfect example of how
Speaker 6: you can use the Internet in a proper way to
Speaker 6: kind of theoretically dig up clues.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing is is that this is an incredible
Speaker 2: while he this Long Iron serial killer, and then as
Speaker 2: you talk about in the series, that goes way beyond
Speaker 2: this just one investigation, and we will talk about a
Speaker 2: little bit of the linkage that you do make. But
Speaker 2: what I wanted to say was the incredible step by
Speaker 2: step hunt that you have for this Long Island serial killer,
Speaker 2: and the I guess better term a sort of a
Speaker 2: gum shoe approach to tracking down information, speaking with victims' families,
Speaker 2: anybody that could speak to you. Every telephone call is recorded,
Speaker 2: so it just seems be like little bits, little piece
Speaker 2: by piece, very much like a police investigation. Your investigation
Speaker 2: is going where the police don't either have the time,
Speaker 2: focus or as you point out in the series, how
Speaker 2: unconnected police forces are. And while we're talking about that
Speaker 2: non connectedness, you do talk about ViCAP and it's failing.
Speaker 2: So tell us about what you did find out about ViCAP,
Speaker 2: what we think we believe about ViCAP, and what is
Speaker 2: the reality.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, I was in hindsight. I was
Speaker 4: really naive coming into this series, at least when it
Speaker 4: concerns law enforcement agencies being connected. You know, I think
Speaker 4: that we all have this preconceived notion that there's some
Speaker 4: big Brother data cloud where we're feeding data into twenty
Speaker 4: four to seven, and that's really not the case. I
Speaker 4: really thought that, you know, there's a missing person's database,
Speaker 4: and unidentified remains database, a homicide database, and they were
Speaker 4: all interconnected and cross reference and if someone goes missing
Speaker 4: on Kansas and they pop up in Illinois, you know,
Speaker 4: I'm simplifying it, that a yellow light would would go
Speaker 4: off and you know, the case would be solved. That's
Speaker 4: absolutely not the case. You know, we live in a
Speaker 4: very very fractured.
Speaker 6: System.
Speaker 4: The broken system.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: I did not know that law enforcement agencies do not
Speaker 4: have to report their homicide data. They are not mandated
Speaker 4: to report a homicide data into any kind of sad
Speaker 4: world databate, and that that database would be bypassed. So
Speaker 4: there there are so many dots that cannot be connected
Speaker 4: because of that, you know. And further on in the series,
Speaker 4: we we become acquainted with Thomas Hargrove. Tom Hargrove, who's
Speaker 4: a data journalist, who he's a citizen. He has compiled
Speaker 4: the largest comicide database in the country by going through
Speaker 4: freedom and Information Acts and in some cases doing the
Speaker 4: native Illinois for our homicide data. So we have a
Speaker 4: long way to go to the place where I think
Speaker 4: a lot of people think we exist, which is like this.
Speaker 4: It kind of goes into that like CSI effect that
Speaker 4: with our what we think is so far futuristic technology
Speaker 4: that we should be able to stall all times, that's
Speaker 4: really just not the case. And I'm hoping that people
Speaker 4: will watch the show and realize it, realize that it's yes,
Speaker 4: these cases are really horrific and tragic, and it's really
Speaker 4: sad for the families and the victims, and that these
Speaker 4: cases are unsolved. But in addition to that that, there
Speaker 4: are reasons why these cases remain unsolved, and that is
Speaker 4: because of this kind of linkage blindness, because of these
Speaker 4: connections that cannot be made in addition to so many
Speaker 4: other societal factors. You know, we're creating a virtual Peatrie
Speaker 4: dish for these killers to get away with murder.
Speaker 6: Right, And just to add on to that, I mean, look,
Speaker 6: you know, we're not here to throw law enforcement under
Speaker 6: the bus. I think a lot of law enforcement understand
Speaker 6: the limitations of their own computer databases, you know, and
Speaker 6: a lot of enforcement law enforcement agencies do send their information,
Speaker 6: but a lot of times information doesn't get sent in
Speaker 6: for whatever reason, and that really prevents even the best
Speaker 6: detectives from doing their jobs to the fullest extent. As
Speaker 6: you see in our show. You know, we had one
Speaker 6: of the former heads of VICAPS tell us like they
Speaker 6: are missing connections, you know, thousands of missing persons, unidentified bodies.
Speaker 6: You know, if these systems were better, you know, if
Speaker 6: all this information was mandated and sent in, then we
Speaker 6: can do a much better job of connecting these crimes.
Speaker 6: And look, it can happen the vie in Canada, they
Speaker 6: have the ViCAP system as well. It's slightly different, but
Speaker 6: basically it's based on our system, and all the law
Speaker 6: enforcement agencies in Canada have to send their murder data
Speaker 6: in in America, we're dealing with seventeen to twenty thousand
Speaker 6: different law enforcement agencies. There's a lot of jurisdictional issues,
Speaker 6: and you know, there's there's the perception that you know,
Speaker 6: it's a freedom you know, it's an individual freedom's issue,
Speaker 6: but we're talking about murder here, and so I don't
Speaker 6: I don't think we should be dealing with, you know,
Speaker 6: personal liberty issues when we're talking about solving murders. And
Speaker 6: so it was just shocking to me. Again, not one
Speaker 6: single law enforcement agency in the United States it's betterly
Speaker 6: mandated to share its murder data with the FBI's BYICAP system.
Speaker 6: It's just crazy to me. And all the time and
Speaker 6: effort and TV shows that just deal with solving cases
Speaker 6: and murders all day long, yet we don't even do
Speaker 6: that in real life. How did the world not know that?
Speaker 2: Now, this incredible series has some stuff in other episodes
Speaker 2: that people will see November twelfth and the two episodes
Speaker 2: that debut, but how does this investigation into the Long
Speaker 2: Island serial killer that we already have been talked talking
Speaker 2: about that it looks like two serial killers with different
Speaker 2: signatures operating in the same area, if not more, you said, sick.
Speaker 2: So let's talk about how this investigation morphed into a
Speaker 2: much bigger investigation and included other cities like Daytona Beach
Speaker 2: and Atlantic City, and talk more a little bit about
Speaker 2: which I thought was one of the most shocking things,
Speaker 2: is the statistics surrounding long haul truckers and that type
Speaker 2: of long haul serial murder.
Speaker 6: Well, just before we get into that, I just want
Speaker 6: to clarify we're I don't think we're talking about more
Speaker 6: than two serial killers. What we're saying is like in
Speaker 6: any big city with numbers like New York City, we're
Speaker 6: saying there could be six active serial killers at any
Speaker 6: one time. But just to be clear, I think in
Speaker 6: Long Island we're pretty specifically saying it's probably two, but
Speaker 6: probably not more. However, there are more serial killers obviously
Speaker 6: in Long Island, but I think with regards to the
Speaker 6: Gilgo Beach case, I think we're talking about a max two.
Speaker 6: May disagree.
Speaker 2: No, that's great. I mean, you did say New York
Speaker 2: six and Long Island. We've established twos enough I think,
Speaker 2: so right now, anyway, that's back from this, So how
Speaker 2: does take more Rachel? How does how does the investgation
Speaker 2: morph into those other cities.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. Yeah, it's really interesting.
Speaker 4: I think I think it was not too far to
Speaker 4: reach to go and investigate the AC murders, which was
Speaker 4: for sex workers down behind a CD hotel in a
Speaker 4: grade yard staging close to water, extremely similar to the
Speaker 4: case in Long Island with the Gilga Beach four.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: And that case broke in November of two thousand and six,
Speaker 4: which was only about oh gosh, seven to eight months
Speaker 4: before Marine Brainerd Burns disappeared, which was the first of
Speaker 4: the Gilga Beach four. So you know, AC is only
Speaker 4: one hundred and twenty miles away from from Long Island,
Speaker 4: from Go Go Beach, and so that would definitely worth
Speaker 4: us checking out, and we did. And yes, they're definitely
Speaker 4: eerie familiarities. I would not say the same perpetrator is responsible,
Speaker 4: but what it led to was really discovering and that's
Speaker 4: the point when I when I found out from Quina Quinnette,
Speaker 4: who has done tons of research kind of on the
Speaker 4: progression of hero homicides involving sex workers that they have
Speaker 4: increased by seventy percent since the Sevendides. So this whole
Speaker 4: kind of world open up to us that I think
Speaker 4: we did not know necessarily existed, that sherial killers were
Speaker 4: preying upon sex workers in record numbers all across America.
Speaker 4: You know, we started this series out looking at the
Speaker 4: Long Island caves and looking at cereal murder in general,
Speaker 4: thinking that, you know, we'd investigate different serial murder of
Speaker 4: not just sex workers, but of different populations. And it
Speaker 4: just kept coming up that these serial murder cases almost
Speaker 4: always involve not only people who live on the fringes,
Speaker 4: but but sex workers and people who have substance abuse issues.
Speaker 4: So I think that once we investigated ac and we
Speaker 4: looked down that dark alleyway, that dark road, and with
Speaker 4: our communication with Websfluth who told us, you know what,
Speaker 4: there's this case in Daytona which is quite similar. You know,
Speaker 4: another four sex workers who were killed. The beach community,
Speaker 4: the tourist town near water kind of just kept going
Speaker 4: where this story let us and you bring up long
Speaker 4: haul truckers. That is a terrifying subset of killers. You know,
Speaker 4: not only do serial murderers know all the different contributing
Speaker 4: factors to having them being able to get away with murder,
Speaker 4: but long haul truckers also understand that there is territorialism
Speaker 4: when it comes to crime. They understand that they can
Speaker 4: pick up a woman in one state killer and jumper
Speaker 4: number body in another state, and there's going to be
Speaker 4: jurisdictional issues. There's going to be a lack of connection.
Speaker 2: For that.
Speaker 4: So, you know, it just it became bigger and bigger
Speaker 4: and bigger, and the winds just became wider and wider
Speaker 4: and wider as we continued looking into these cases.
Speaker 6: You know that and that was one of the things.
Speaker 6: You know, people asked us, you know, are these cases
Speaker 6: really connected? And we like to say they are, just
Speaker 6: not in the ways that you might think. And that's
Speaker 6: one of the big overarching themes of the show. You know,
Speaker 6: look a lot of your guests and deal with serial murder.
Speaker 6: You know, we're very into it as a society. Serial murder.
Speaker 6: It's it's one of the most taboo subjects and it's
Speaker 6: one of the most interesting to kind of figure out
Speaker 6: why does somebody do what they do, you know, and
Speaker 6: that whole thing, you know, profiling, et cetera. And you know,
Speaker 6: I like it too, But sometimes we create connections to
Speaker 6: alleviate our fear. You know, it's a natural tendency to
Speaker 6: create connections. It helps us survive. And unfortunately, when we
Speaker 6: kind of create these connections everybody had the last name,
Speaker 6: or everybody was killed on the same date, or all
Speaker 6: these other issues, we tend to kind of miss the
Speaker 6: big picture and the connections here is not that it's
Speaker 6: one super duper serial killer going through all these different
Speaker 6: you know, beach side communities and killing these women. The
Speaker 6: connection is that we've created a culture that allows these
Speaker 6: women to be killed, and it allows these killers to
Speaker 6: believe that they can get away with it. And that
Speaker 6: is really the true message of what we're talking about.
Speaker 6: You know, as you said, you know, serial killing against
Speaker 6: sex workers has gone up dramatically, but there's a whole
Speaker 6: bunch of other issues at hand. The fact is, Rachel said,
Speaker 6: there's databases that aren't speaking to each other, and there's
Speaker 6: long all killers that know that, with so many different
Speaker 6: law enforcement agencies that believe it or not, that same
Speaker 6: old kind of Hollywood trope of territorialism that's real, you know,
Speaker 6: they know that the best way to get away with
Speaker 6: murder is to dump a body over state lines. And
Speaker 6: you would think, well, that might have been that probably
Speaker 6: worked in the seventies, but I'm still true today. And
Speaker 6: that's what's so shocked.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 2: What did you talk about in the series as well
Speaker 2: as that once upon a time, if it wasn't risky
Speaker 2: enough for a woman just to jump into somebody's vehicle
Speaker 2: for drugs or for sex without any kind of backup whatsoever,
Speaker 2: and those were the victims of serial killers? Is that now,
Speaker 2: as you talk about in the series, that people feel
Speaker 2: that because it's social media or because it has some
Speaker 2: kind of legitimacy by being on the internet, that they
Speaker 2: feel safer. And then you point out again the phenomena
Speaker 2: that I hadn't really thought about very much at all,
Speaker 2: the very very horrifying subset, as you say, of serial
Speaker 2: murder with the long haul truckers. And to add to
Speaker 2: the horror in the series, you interview a serial killer,
Speaker 2: John Robert Williams. So just tell us a little bit.
Speaker 2: Don't give it away, but I mean, just tell us
Speaker 2: on how you got this interview and what you wanted
Speaker 2: to get information that you wanted to get from John
Speaker 2: Robert Williams.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a really good question. You know, we wanted
Speaker 4: to find a killer who was in prison who would
Speaker 4: admit to his murders. That's very hard to do. I
Speaker 4: mean a lot of these mostly men, are you know,
Speaker 4: going through trying to get new trials, get things overturned.
Speaker 4: So they're always looking for you to help them in that.
Speaker 4: I think that both Josh and I knew that I'd
Speaker 4: had better luck and you were mostly men, right, we
Speaker 4: would have better luck for me writing these letters, which
Speaker 4: is quite scary when I think about it. But so
Speaker 4: he was one of the few who wrote back and said, yes,
Speaker 4: I committed these murders. I actually killed up to thirty women.
Speaker 4: Uh he maybe in Belisium, not quite sure.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: And I would talk to you, And what we heard
Speaker 4: from him was actually spot on, quite surprisingly, and he
Speaker 4: said all the things that we had been talking about
Speaker 4: that he really understood as a long haul trucker that
Speaker 4: he could pick up a woman in one stage and
Speaker 4: killer and for in another's day because he said, and
Speaker 4: I believe he said, he has certain rules when it
Speaker 4: comes to killing, and one is what was it, Josh,
Speaker 4: don't killtown?
Speaker 6: You know, uh dropped the body never you know, and
Speaker 6: dropped the body over state lines, and he said that
Speaker 6: I got caught exactly exactly.
Speaker 4: So we were really surprised that he had such a
Speaker 4: keen insight in how law enforcement works and that he
Speaker 4: was able to manipulate that and really you that, you know,
Speaker 4: and then you know, I don't want to give it
Speaker 4: all away, but then he told us very what some
Speaker 4: people might think of a tall tale of knowing other
Speaker 4: serial killers who were still out there, still active, working
Speaker 4: the highways of America, and still getting away with murder.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that was just incredible to me. Look, you know,
Speaker 6: I think we were so shocked by the idea that
Speaker 6: in this day and age, territorialism between law enforcement agencies
Speaker 6: was so prevalent that it would prevent murders from being solved,
Speaker 6: you know, like and so what we wanted is we
Speaker 6: wanted to find a long haul serial killer who would
Speaker 6: tell us that they use these inadequacies of law enforcement,
Speaker 6: that they that they knew they existed, This territorial realism existed,
Speaker 6: and they used it to their advent. Because we were
Speaker 6: trying to you know, we want law enforcement to work together.
Speaker 6: We want everybody to work together. We want everybody to
Speaker 6: kind of, you know, create the best create the best
Speaker 6: databases possible. So if we can speak to a long
Speaker 6: all serial killer who kind of could point out, who
Speaker 6: could say point blank, yes I knew you know that
Speaker 6: these guys don't speak to each other, maybe it would
Speaker 6: help convince everybody to close that loop. And the good
Speaker 6: news is is we are seeing that loop being closed
Speaker 6: a little bit. We now know that law enforcement agencies
Speaker 6: are making better attempts to put that territorialism aside. But
Speaker 6: we need to be even better. We need to really
Speaker 6: be working together as much as possible, and so that
Speaker 6: was our goal.
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting too, is that you expand this
Speaker 2: as you say that this investigation is expanded to an
Speaker 2: examination of the entire phenomena of serial murder and murder
Speaker 2: in general, especially when it comes to the marginalized, the
Speaker 2: prostitute that seems to be always the victim of these people.
Speaker 2: And then you get to do again, this is so profound,
Speaker 2: this series that you even talked to it's very courageous
Speaker 2: that you interview a motorcycle club member. And if prostitutes
Speaker 2: already didn't have enough of a tough time in America.
Speaker 2: Then you talk about the border, the border states where
Speaker 2: it looks like what you found is prostitutes that are
Speaker 2: used as drug and money running and then disposed like
Speaker 2: trash in the desert. So that expansion includes you talk
Speaker 2: about Albuquerque. Tell us a little bit about this expansion
Speaker 2: into even more horrifying murder and that reality that goes
Speaker 2: along with it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean when it came to New Mexico, we
Speaker 4: didn't know what we were stumbling into. I mean, that's
Speaker 4: a love of bodies found in a mass grave. You know,
Speaker 4: it's interesting. Some people ask like, what do you feel
Speaker 4: like you're gonna solve any of these cases? I hope
Speaker 4: that with the show that we do the New Mexico case,
Speaker 4: the Albuquerque case was one of the few that I
Speaker 4: felt like, guys, what's going on. There's so many different
Speaker 4: threads to go down there. There's so many people, there's
Speaker 4: so much speculation. There's all these like grumblings of people
Speaker 4: knowing these women missing before they went missing. And these
Speaker 4: are women unlike the ones in unlike the women in
Speaker 4: Long Island. They were working this street. They have a
Speaker 4: face to face with vice props on a daily basis.
Speaker 4: People knew them, and the drugs were hard there. I mean,
Speaker 4: that's that's one of the places we were like hanging
Speaker 4: out at three o'clock in the morning and very sketchy neighborhoods.
Speaker 4: So speculation with that case is very, very interesting. I
Speaker 4: think it could definitely be some kind of drug cartel
Speaker 4: situation there. But again, that is one of the one
Speaker 4: of the law enforcement agencies that was the toughest for us.
Speaker 4: They would not talk to us. They are under investigation
Speaker 4: by the Department of Justice, and they and they remained
Speaker 4: to be and to this day, they have not really
Speaker 4: corresponded with us at all. It's going to be interesting
Speaker 4: with that well, not not much. It is going to
Speaker 4: be interesting with that case. There is some new information
Speaker 4: coming out that we will round back to as these
Speaker 4: are as these episodes air, So there might be some
Speaker 4: traction there with that case that I'd be interested to
Speaker 4: see how that evolves.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, one thing we do know for sure, drugs.
Speaker 6: You know, It's like, first of all, no little girl
Speaker 6: ever wants to grow up to be a you know,
Speaker 6: a sex worker, you know, and you know, sex work
Speaker 6: is is a lot of times part and parcel with
Speaker 6: addiction issues, and you know, drugs are there is number one,
Speaker 6: a huge opioid epidemic ravishing this country, and you know,
Speaker 6: and we even get into that, and of course, you know,
Speaker 6: that's what's happening in chili Coopy, Ohio. And and as
Speaker 6: the media, you know, we have again a tendency to like, oh,
Speaker 6: there must be some reason for this. You know, Discovery
Speaker 6: ID went to Chilicopy, Ohio thinking it was a serial killer,
Speaker 6: and then they found out it was you know, drugs.
Speaker 6: You know, but you know, that doesn't fit with the
Speaker 6: narrative that we want to create here. So you know,
Speaker 6: it's it's sad and and that's also what happened with
Speaker 6: you know, in Albuquerque here, uh you know, I did.
Speaker 6: There's a lot of drugs going on, and I think
Speaker 6: you know, that's one of the reasons you know, that's here.
Speaker 6: But Rach brought up a very interesting thing and and
Speaker 6: and kind of stepping back and looking at it. Out
Speaker 6: of we worked with some very great law enforcement officials,
Speaker 6: and the ones who were transparent were great. Mike Chitwood,
Speaker 6: who at the time was the police chief of Daytona.
Speaker 6: The guy was extremely transparent and you know, you know,
Speaker 6: dayton I think people felt really safe in Daytona despite
Speaker 6: what was going on. And you know, he was very
Speaker 6: open and he was great. But a lot of the
Speaker 6: other law enforcement agencies that we looked at. Let let
Speaker 6: me just say, out of the five cities we looked at,
Speaker 6: the three of those cities, law their law enforcement agencies
Speaker 6: were under investigation by the Department of Justice for civil
Speaker 6: rights violations. So that should be a clue that, you know,
Speaker 6: unsolved serial killer cases law enforcement agencies that are under
Speaker 6: investigation by the Department of Justice. What we're looking at,
Speaker 6: and what Rachel said before, is it's not just a
Speaker 6: killer who commits these murders. Yes, that's the individual, but
Speaker 6: the killer has to believe that he can get away
Speaker 6: with it, you know. And I think that that's the
Speaker 6: problem that we're looking at here. It's just too easy
Speaker 6: for these guys to get away with it. Whether they're
Speaker 6: long haul serial killers, whether they're killing African American women
Speaker 6: in Cleveland, or whether they're killing you know, Caucasian sex
Speaker 6: workers on the internet in Long Island. We just make
Speaker 6: it too easy for these guys to get away with it.
Speaker 2: Now, you talk about Tricia, Tricia Griffith, and she's the
Speaker 2: owner of webslues dot com. And you do talk about
Speaker 2: or basically refer to the role of again, this cyber
Speaker 2: community in being able to assist police, again unofficially because
Speaker 2: the police aren't asking nor they are encouraging any of
Speaker 2: this assistance whatsoever. But regardless, this is somewhat of a
Speaker 2: call for and as you've proven the series, it's very
Speaker 2: very effective. So tell us what really what you would
Speaker 2: envision the role of web and documentary filmmakers like yourself
Speaker 2: and just interested citizens could in I mean not ideally,
Speaker 2: but in practicality, what can they really do?
Speaker 6: That's a good question. And listen, we get it like
Speaker 6: law enforcement, like in terms of like having a real
Speaker 6: case and one that can stand up in the court
Speaker 6: of law. Can you imagine somehow using a web slutter
Speaker 6: like that would never hold up? Yet at the same time,
Speaker 6: we all understand that law enforcement is underpaid and overworked.
Speaker 6: And you know, the question here is you know, for example,
Speaker 6: like we say in Long Island, there are five victims
Speaker 6: who are unidentified in one of the largest serial killer
Speaker 6: cases in the past decade. That's five out of ten victims.
Speaker 6: That's so many possible clues here, and so one of
Speaker 6: the places where we found web sloosters. Really great is
Speaker 6: doing the little work, the little details that law enforcement
Speaker 6: can't do, finding those unidentified looking through you know, court records,
Speaker 6: public records, anything that can alleviate the burden of law enforcement.
Speaker 6: And there's an example in New Mexico. A law enforcement
Speaker 6: agency had an unidentified victim and they had a partly
Speaker 6: disintegrated shirt, right, and they gave that shirt to web
Speaker 6: slue and it was a very like specific ask. They said,
Speaker 6: could you guys help us identify what this picture is
Speaker 6: that we found on a body. Within twenty four hours,
Speaker 6: the websuits had the picture and where you can buy
Speaker 6: it and all this other great information. Okay, so that's
Speaker 6: how you use these crowd fluting sites. You give them
Speaker 6: one specific task and you put the power of the
Speaker 6: people in that one little task. So, like Rachel was
Speaker 6: saying earlier, what we want to do is encourage law
Speaker 6: enforcement to say, Okay, everybody, today or this week or
Speaker 6: this month, we all we want to find out who
Speaker 6: this unidentified victim is in Long Island, Asian male. Here's
Speaker 6: everything we know about him, please help us find him.
Speaker 6: We're going to have one specific officer who is there
Speaker 6: going to be asking all these you know there to
Speaker 6: answer all your questions at least on the internet, like
Speaker 6: that is how you use web solues to solve these crimes?
Speaker 6: Or again that tip you know what is this picture of?
Speaker 6: Or you know you use them for the little details
Speaker 6: and not you know, we'd never use it and actually
Speaker 6: solve a crime quote unquote Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And and this is as well, this fine work that
Speaker 2: web sluts is doing, and this encouragement of this fine work. Also, Rachel,
Speaker 2: you have undertaken a campaign to be able to correct
Speaker 2: some of the glaring problems with YCAP revenue.
Speaker 4: Well, I hope that if it's not us, someone will
Speaker 4: pick up that torch and move forward to figuring out
Speaker 4: how we can create a system accountability and check some balances.
Speaker 4: You know, we have one person, one of the ax
Speaker 4: head of exiting Director of ICAP, Greg Cooper, who Josh
Speaker 4: was speaking about earlier, who understands from the inside the
Speaker 4: issues with ycaps and really does want to see law
Speaker 4: enforcement agencies having to enter in all their homicide data
Speaker 4: to make it completely mandatory. And he along with his organization,
Speaker 4: he's now a private suitan called the Cold Case Foundation
Speaker 4: is working at doing that. You know, it's hard to
Speaker 4: make such huge changes, especially on a federal level, So
Speaker 4: they are working on a state by state program. I
Speaker 4: think it's called the State Compact Agreement. It's kind of
Speaker 4: the same idea of driver's license. You know, each state
Speaker 4: has a different driver's license, but supposedly all the databases
Speaker 4: are linked up. It's kind of that same idea. Yeah,
Speaker 4: that from because we're a state driven nation that go
Speaker 4: from one state to another. Each date agrees to sign
Speaker 4: on and it will slowly become federally mandated. We'll see
Speaker 4: if that happens, but hopefully at least people will understand
Speaker 4: the total fragmentation of these databases and which I definitely
Speaker 4: did not know, and we'll hopefully put some pressure on
Speaker 4: those in charge and those harmmakers that who can make
Speaker 4: those decisions.
Speaker 6: I mean, we're hoping. Look, you know, it's not like
Speaker 6: big data is. You know, big businesses are using this
Speaker 6: all the time. You know, it's just the tragedy here
Speaker 6: is that the public sector is behind the private sector.
Speaker 6: I mean, look, you have an algorithm through Netflix that
Speaker 6: can tell you exactly what movie you want, but we
Speaker 6: don't have the same algorithm working at data base for
Speaker 6: connecting crimes. One day that will happen, but there's no
Speaker 6: reason why that day can't be today. And you know,
Speaker 6: it's a shame that, you know, we don't have the
Speaker 6: same you know, tech people working in the public sector
Speaker 6: that we do in the private sector. And you know,
Speaker 6: it's a shame that unfortunately a lot of you know,
Speaker 6: the financing that could go towards these computer systems. I mean,
Speaker 6: I get it, like, if you had an opportunity, you know,
Speaker 6: would you want to you know, get an armored personnel
Speaker 6: carricer or would you want to get you know, a
Speaker 6: better computer system. I you know, I kind of understand that,
Speaker 6: you know, we all why some people might say it
Speaker 6: or a personnel carrier. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 6: if you really want to solve a lot of those crimes,
Speaker 6: those cold cases, you know, you need the computer system.
Speaker 6: You know that that's the reality of it.
Speaker 2: Well, in doing your due diligence here and finding out
Speaker 2: what the reality is in terms of serial murder and
Speaker 2: who those victims likely are. With that being again the
Speaker 2: vulnerable drug addicted prostitute, what we've found is that this
Speaker 2: glaring void, this hole that will affect every single citizen
Speaker 2: in America. So congratulations on bringing that up and to
Speaker 2: the forefront, because it isn't just the system failing prostitutes,
Speaker 2: it's failing every citizen in America.
Speaker 6: Well yeah, I mean that's the whole thing. The creevy
Speaker 6: thing that we learned is that your idea the prostitute
Speaker 6: that's totally old school. With the Internet, prostitution is changing
Speaker 6: as we know it. The world's oldest profession is changing.
Speaker 6: And now anybody with a cell phone can take a
Speaker 6: picture and post it online and meet up at the
Speaker 6: holiday in So you know, we're not talking about girls
Speaker 6: who necessarily walk the streets anymore. You know, you don't
Speaker 6: have to do that anymore. You don't have to have
Speaker 6: a pimp. You know what we're finding what we saw
Speaker 6: on Long Island especially, this was middle class women, you know,
Speaker 6: who needed to pay their rent, who had children to feed,
Speaker 6: and you know, these there's this idea that because it's
Speaker 6: the Internet, you're posting on back page or what have you,
Speaker 6: that it's somehow safer. But speaking to the professionals out there,
Speaker 6: we realized and found out that it's much more anonymous,
Speaker 6: that the Internet actually creates a new level of anonymity
Speaker 6: that nobody really understands. And you know, what we're also
Speaker 6: finding is that you know, nowadays the woman who is
Speaker 6: posting is you know, it could be your sister, your mother,
Speaker 6: you know it again, the world's oldest profession is changing
Speaker 6: as we know it, and anybody could become that victim.
Speaker 2: Absolutely tell us again when the premiere of the Killing
Speaker 2: season docuseries will begin.
Speaker 4: Jolly premiers on Saturday, November twelfth, with back to back
Speaker 4: episodes Long Island Episodes one and two, and then for
Speaker 4: the next four weeks, so two episodes every evening starting Saturday,
Speaker 4: November twelveth We're also wanting to at the end of
Speaker 4: every episode, we have a what we call call it
Speaker 4: an action card, where we give the hotline that people
Speaker 4: can give tips in. But we also want to drive
Speaker 4: people to websluites dot com, which both Josh and I
Speaker 4: will be on quite frequently. Actually was on it. You
Speaker 4: have conversations today, I'm posted to web slues to continue
Speaker 4: that conversation. You know, Josh frequently calls this show America's
Speaker 4: most wanted two point zero, So we want to drive
Speaker 4: that conversation to webs clues and hopefully be able to
Speaker 4: source some additional clues and if nothing else, continue to
Speaker 4: have these conversations happen.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I want to congratulate you both, Josh Zeeman and
Speaker 2: Rachel Mills for the Killing Season. Again, very powerful, important,
Speaker 2: and gripping. I have nothing but superlatives for this. Thank
Speaker 2: you very much for coming on and talking about the
Speaker 2: Killing season.
Speaker 4: We thank you so much for the talk. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4: Good night, Harry, good night,