WEBVTT 1 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:15.839 What's going on? Everyone? 2 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:19.879 I'm Will Button and this is Adventures in DevOps. Today 3 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:22.399 I've got the co host with the most with me, 4 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:23.199 Jonathan Hall. 5 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:24.399 Hey, everybody, how's it going? 6 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:28.399 And today we have our very special guests Danielle Fontani. 7 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:30.519 How are you man, I'm fine, I'm fine. 8 00:00:30.559 --> 00:00:31.839 Thank you for having. 9 00:00:31.559 --> 00:00:35.119 Met an adventure and DevOps, this effort and getting this 10 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:37.920 this recorded. It has truly been an adventure. 11 00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:44.880 Sure, Sure, we are talking about adventure and. 12 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:46.799 Is the. 13 00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:53.960 So we've actually got an article from you about I 14 00:00:54.039 --> 00:00:56.359 gonna gonna pull up the title because the title just 15 00:00:56.399 --> 00:00:59.840 cracks me up. Tri Sarah tops why DevOps is not 16 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:03.399 only an acronym and this is a great article to read. 17 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:05.519 We'll put a link to it in the show notes. 18 00:01:05.879 --> 00:01:11.319 But it's that the unique combination of being humorous and informative. 19 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:14.599 And so we're going to dig into that and talk 20 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:19.439 about acronyms and develops. But first, for any of our 21 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:21.159 listeners who may not be familiar with this, you want 22 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:22.680 to give us a little bit about your background. 23 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:26.680 Sure, I work as a CEO in seeing traditional business 24 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:30.959 at a digital company and we try to help companies 25 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:37.040 for accelerating their digital transformation of cours and in this company, 26 00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:41.480 I love to devise about the VopS of COURTSA. In 27 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:44.719 the spare time, I love to play with open source 28 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:48.239 project and contribute to the community. And I love also 29 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:53.680 to write article for sharing my opinion and be in 30 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.159 touch with the community itself. So that's why also I'm 31 00:01:57.239 --> 00:01:59.359 here and I love to be here with you. 32 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:04.079 So tell us how did you get to How did 33 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:05.799 you even get to the point where you were writing 34 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:09.439 an article called tri sterotops? Why the VopS is not 35 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:10.520 only an acronym? 36 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.280 Oh sure, sure, the story is quite it's quite funny. 37 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:18.919 It's quite funny because it comes from a previous article. 38 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:23.400 My previous article that was that has a little bit provocative, 39 00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:26.280 provocative title the VopS is. 40 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:28.000 Dead Long life to pops. 41 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:35.400 Where where in that article I write about why we 42 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:39.599 should focus more on the app development and try to 43 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:45.159 find some way to automate the application development instead of 44 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:48.759 wasting a lot of time on the infrastructure. And then 45 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:53.120 already one user reply to the comment and tell me 46 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:57.080 what would be the next the next one acronymus in 47 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.240 the bobs would be patched out of So this make 48 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:04.360 me loved so much, And I told myself I will 49 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:05.919 have to write an article about that. 50 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:11.319 So that's how, and I think. 51 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:12.919 I'm gonna have to use this, I have to say. 52 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.000 I mean, I have these conversations all the time where 53 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:18.599 someone's like, what do you think about DevOps, sep secups, 54 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:20.439 blah blah blah blah, and I'm going to just start 55 00:03:20.439 --> 00:03:21.840 throwing pops in there. 56 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:26.560 Sure, But now that we have learned that, the algorithm 57 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:29.360 is quite simple because you can take the OPS word 58 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:32.560 and put something on in front in front of that, 59 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:36.759 so you can be everything ups of course, but at 60 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:40.479 the end it's always the bobs because there are many 61 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:43.719 way many improvement of the same things. When we talk 62 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:49.159 about guitops, we don't it's not something different than hobs 63 00:03:49.159 --> 00:03:52.400 on the scopes, and so I think that at the end, 64 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:55.639 what you are doing is the VopS of course, but 65 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:58.560 there are many ways to do that. There are many 66 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:04.680 driver One one important driver is about automation and reduce 67 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:09.159 the human effort on on the operation side, and how 68 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:13.479 you can do that. You can do that by implementing hobs. 69 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:15.280 You can do but at the end, what is no 70 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:18.120 hobs not, of course, it is use using the cloud 71 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:22.240 and implementing automation or using tool that do that do 72 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:25.360 that for you. So at the end, probably there is 73 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:27.720 only one the VOBS topic. I don't know what you 74 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:32.360 think about that, but I don't see too many difference 75 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:37.240 between two approach. What I see is a way for 76 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:44.199 putting something inside our actual the VopS process, like the 77 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:48.839 think about the set cops. You know this is another badsword. 78 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:53.920 Everybody will do that, But what is the se cops 79 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:57.920 in the end is really different than the VopS or 80 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:03.639 it's really different implement a process. 81 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:05.879 Rather than the regular the best process. 82 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:10.439 I don't think so, because you just have to add 83 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:14.439 another add other people into the process, add or other 84 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:16.279 competencies into the process. 85 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:20.600 If you are able to have auto meet automated. 86 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:25.360 Tests on application, maybe you can also automate security tests. 87 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:26.759 So form a. 88 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:30.360 Point of view, all that are buds work And we 89 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:34.600 have to hear that bads word because I think it's 90 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:39.279 important to to have to listen to the new new 91 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:43.079 trends and follow the new trends and take what is 92 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:46.279 good in that. But then we have to put into 93 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:49.720 into our reality. We have to put in practice what 94 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:55.360 theories tells and and the thing that this is the 95 00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:58.920 probably this is the the most important thing to remember 96 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:05.439 when we see some acronymous or badsword in in some Twitter. 97 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:06.639 Or LinkedIn post. 98 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:10.399 And if you if you read some title like the 99 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:13.920 VopS is dead long life to hypops, of course, don't 100 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:18.000 trust this this article is. Don't trust that outdoor because 101 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:22.279 probably they are trying to to tell you something not 102 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:26.040 not too terrible. Probably it's just something that you can 103 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:30.600 add to your to your experience, but it's not something revolutionary. 104 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:35.480 What else I believe? I really believe in the no 105 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:39.800 hops trend. Just we talking that you don't believe the acronymus, 106 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:44.720 but I really love the driver of putting less effort 107 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:48.360 as possible on the operation part. 108 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:49.959 And this of course for. 109 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.959 Me, it doesn't mean forget about that part or take 110 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:58.079 some risks. Of course, you have to use an infrastructure 111 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:02.079 that works, that is performat. But what you should do 112 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:07.399 is to use as much as possible tools and platforms 113 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:11.319 that make possible that you have to focus only on 114 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:14.040 the software part. Because more time you spend on the 115 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:18.759 software part, more value you put in your product, and 116 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:22.800 more value has your product and more customers will will 117 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:26.959 buy it. So we have to focus on what brings 118 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:28.759 value to us. 119 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:31.240 This can be done. This, This is possible. 120 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:33.839 This is possible because we have a lot of tool 121 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:38.680 in the market for automating releases an example, for automating 122 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:42.720 testing example. We have a lot of tools that automatically 123 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.560 bid your application and deploy to an infrastructure that is 124 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:52.839 fully managed. Maybe, of course, and we can use hyperscaler services. 125 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:55.720 But I think this is a very very good driver, 126 00:07:56.120 --> 00:07:59.160 a very very good driver because every minute you spend 127 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:05.160 our mounting our drive on a server or connecting with 128 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:10.920 cable through devices, it's time that you've asked because the 129 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:14.199 cloud do it do that for you? And cloud services 130 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:17.360 are areable, are performance and are good. And when I 131 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:19.920 talk about this transformation, a lot of seas are mean, 132 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:23.279 are scared because they think. 133 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:25.279 What will happen to me? Yeah? 134 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:31.120 Sure, a lot of people are carried by as carried 135 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:34.879 by the kind of article I write, because they ask 136 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:38.759 what will be my future? The future will be different. 137 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:42.480 I think that everybody has to change. If we think 138 00:08:42.519 --> 00:08:47.000 about informatic chance and programming ten years ago is very 139 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:51.240 different and in the next tenty years will be more different. 140 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:56.960 So we are evolving. The vobs is spreading and forces. 141 00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:01.600 I mean, guys, they have to start at asformation. Transformation 142 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:05.639 could be become DevOps, but there are a lot of 143 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:08.039 other things that we have to do. 144 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:10.679 Even if you have even if. 145 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:13.200 You are approaching and no OP scenario, we will still 146 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:16.039 have to monitor the application. We will still have to 147 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:19.759 take care about security, we will still have to take 148 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:25.039 care about invoices, and we are it's easy to start 149 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:29.080 a cloud service. We just have to put credit card 150 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:31.200 number into the system and you are set. 151 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:32.799 But what is there. 152 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:39.320 The problem is that every month, every month, you will 153 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:42.879 have an invoice and you have to pay attention about 154 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:46.120 what you are paying, what you are taking for. And 155 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:49.440 this is a this is a new job, a new job. 156 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:54.120 Of course, big companies spend thousands, not thousands, but hundreds 157 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:59.879 of thousands of dollars monthly in clouds. So if you say, 158 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:02.320 if you are to if you are able to save 159 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:07.240 the teen percent of unused the resources, or you do improvement, 160 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:11.320 this is a good value and maybe you will stop 161 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:15.440 to plug cable and you will start to take care 162 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:22.279 about financial and financial aspect. Another Bads'm sorry for that. Also, 163 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:25.440 pops is another trend that that that is that will 164 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:28.240 be important more and more. We will use the cloud 165 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.200 more and more we will get invoices from the cloud, 166 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:33.759 from the cloud, and more and more we want to 167 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:37.559 be sure to spend for what we use. So there 168 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:42.080 are a lot of new professions that that are that 169 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:47.080 are growing near the develops, near the clouds. So I 170 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:49.840 won't be scared. I don't want to be scared about 171 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:54.960 the end of the OM premise because we have always 172 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:59.759 feared to to talk about that. But but the compromises 173 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:04.039 is low in dying. I don't know for how many 174 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:09.559 years we will still have compromise data center, for how 175 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:14.080 many heres we will still have to plug cable on? 176 00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:15.600 How are that center? 177 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:19.600 So for most of us, the time of the retirement 178 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:22.960 is very long, so we have to we have to 179 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:26.279 think about what we have to do until that. So 180 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:30.200 if Areas is I mean, guys, I won't be scared 181 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:32.919 about the vopes, I won't be scared about no hopes. 182 00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:38.000 I will take this as an opportunity of being able 183 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:43.440 to change my my work, change my professional and do 184 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:46.600 something that brings more value for the for the company 185 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:51.120 and for myself. But probably I see that I'm probably 186 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:54.799 I don't want to be too rude, but I but 187 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:56.440 I think this is the reality. 188 00:11:56.759 --> 00:11:59.039 Probably yeah, no, I agree with you a hundred percent. 189 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:04.159 Like there's no oh scenario in technology where you can 190 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:07.840 get a job and do that same job for the 191 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:11.759 next thirty or forty years until you retire. Like there's 192 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:15.440 just that just doesn't exist. And if that's important to 193 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:19.720 you in your career, technology is probably the wrong career 194 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:21.240 path for you. 195 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:24.000 Become a waiter, right, people always want to eat? 196 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:24.799 Yeah? 197 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:26.440 Sure, And by the way, I was a waiter and 198 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:29.039 I loved it. It's fun work. I'm not missing the job. 199 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:30.360 I've actually never done that. 200 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:35.320 You are missing out. We just need waiter ops now, foodofs. 201 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:38.639 And I agree, I mean the truth this. I mean 202 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:41.000 I actually had somebody asking the other day, aren't you 203 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:44.080 concerned about shift left because doesn't that just mean automating 204 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:46.799 more things? And my response was not, really, I'm not. 205 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:48.480 I mean, yes, that's maybe what it means, or part 206 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:50.679 of what it means, but somebody has to write and 207 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:54.639 maintain that automation. And you know, until we invent general AI, 208 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:57.679 which may or may never happen, there's always going to 209 00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:01.039 be people who are maintaining automation. And that's what I mean, 210 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:03.320 that's kind of what develops has become right, so that 211 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.399 this practice is not going anywhere anytime soon. It will 212 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:10.840 change in every way, but it's it's not we're not 213 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:14.120 getting We're not going to be replacing people with with automations. 214 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:18.159 Sure, but if you think not only technology, not relate 215 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:20.519 into the technology, but if you think what happened on 216 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:27.120 the industrial revolution, it's the same. Nobody nowadays can think 217 00:13:27.159 --> 00:13:34.039 about going producing a car without using machines, and the 218 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:40.039 same is in the in the in programming and in. 219 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:40.840 The vobs and so on. 220 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:45.279 If we can avoid the human effort of courts, there 221 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:46.080 is no vision. 222 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:47.480 There is no vision. 223 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:51.639 To still spend many days instead of money. 224 00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:52.679 There is no reasion. 225 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:54.679 I think one of the other things that you touched 226 00:13:54.720 --> 00:14:00.120 on it's really resonates with me, is the whole business 227 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:04.679 of monitoring cloud expenses, and I think a lot of 228 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:09.039 people underestimate how big of a value that is. You know, 229 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:12.639 one just to be able to help identify where those 230 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:18.320 expenses are and control those costs. But for a lot 231 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:20.759 of us it may be the first time in your 232 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:26.279 career when you can actually quantify the value that you 233 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:28.360 bring to a company. You know, a lot of times 234 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.919 if you're a sisadmin, or an IT administrator or a 235 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:35.440 network engineer that's like a fixed cost. You know, you 236 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:38.480 can go to any number of websites and see what 237 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:42.120 your salary is going to be within a certain range. 238 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:46.240 But when you get into like managing cloud based expenses, 239 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:51.039 your value, you're like, the value you provide to be 240 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:54.679 able to cut someone's cloud bill by ten percent is 241 00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:57.679 going to be different from someone who's spending in ten 242 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:00.159 thousand dollars a month on the cloud versus some one 243 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:03.840 who's spending two hundred thousand dollars a month on the cloud, 244 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:07.120 And so ten percent gives you a way to quantify 245 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:10.120 the work that you're doing. And whenever you can do that, 246 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:13.519 it gives you the ability to negotiate what you want 247 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.039 as a salary, which is something that you unique to 248 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:21.720 people from SIS admin, it even programming backgrounds. 249 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.480 Sure of course, uh it is one of the new 250 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:29.600 professions that that will be very important. And of course, 251 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:34.080 as you're told, the more high is the expense of 252 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:37.320 the company, and more you are useful in that in 253 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:41.399 that role and for us as adminting guys, the question 254 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.720 is where I can bring more value plugging a cable 255 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:50.480 or spending five minium to control the cost. Probably the 256 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:53.279 answer is the second one, and probably you will need 257 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:59.960 not only technical competencies but also financial and other kinds 258 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:04.919 of competency. So this requires this teach us. Another thing 259 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:10.360 that another turn that's happening is that involves developers and 260 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:13.799 the bobs guys, and that teach us to learn not 261 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:19.559 only are skill and not early technical and technical competencies, 262 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:23.559 but also work on the soft skill because also being 263 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:28.879 able to read the balance or number is important for 264 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:34.320 his administrating a cloud, a cloud services. And moreover, think 265 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:37.600 about the scenario when you have more than one cloud 266 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:42.120 provider because a lot of companies now are implementing multi 267 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:45.399 cloud strategy because they fear they're low key and they 268 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.919 don't want to stay on only one IPS scaler because 269 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:53.120 it could it could fail and what is there is 270 00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:57.559 some issues, so they stay multi cloud. That multi cloud 271 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:00.759 is harder to maintain because you have service is spread 272 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:06.880 along multiple vendors with different pressing models, with different invoices, 273 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:09.640 and this is very hard to manage and it is 274 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:14.079 very easy to forget about united resources left active some 275 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.240 servers an example that you are not using this need 276 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:24.799 attention and more need attention. The fact that in this 277 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:29.640 complex scenario. In this complex scenario, there are also security 278 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:33.839 security problems that we have to monitor. So cloud is 279 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:36.599 a very good opportunity for people. 280 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:38.839 That are more related with harder. 281 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:43.160 To grow and to start a new career probably and 282 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:46.640 bring more value to companies and bring more valid to 283 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:50.960 itself because for what I see on job advices, the 284 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:54.759 boss professional very very well paid in the world, and 285 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.640 more and more paid. So this is another thing that 286 00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:59.680 we have to take in account at the end. 287 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:01.160 Yeah, very good. 288 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:04.319 I think it's really interesting. I hadn't really thought about 289 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:06.960 this until now, But I deal a lot with people 290 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:10.799 who are starting their develops careers, and a lot of 291 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:15.319 the focuses on the technical skills. But from your perspective, 292 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:18.440 like there's a huge or it feels like a huge 293 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:23.680 unserved market of these other skills, you know, the financial 294 00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:28.559 skills and the communication skills, and like the business skills 295 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:33.720 to be able to translate business requirements into develops or 296 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:36.160 infrastructure requirements and then quantify that. 297 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:40.119 You're right, I probably I have not a clear handswer 298 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:47.279 is hard to quantify this amount of competencies. But even 299 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:50.359 in the in the programming world, the developer need to 300 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:55.119 be more and more and more able to communicate with teammates. 301 00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:58.359 And also, I don't know if you remember maybe ten 302 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:03.440 years ago when we have UH software developer and then architects. 303 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.799 With the cloud, each developer have to be more architect 304 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:14.200 and less developer because you if you know which piece 305 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:17.680 take from the cloud and put together, you will save 306 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:23.000 a lot of time. So competencies are really changing and 307 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:28.720 having good soft skill helps a lot on the Bobs career. 308 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:34.599 Probably the most important, the most important soft skill I 309 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:38.680 can image the communication one, because you often are in 310 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:45.240 the middle between software and infrastructure and you have to 311 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:51.319 understand what is happening. Often it's hard to find the 312 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:56.839 true between between software and infrastructure and software doesn't work. 313 00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:59.480 So we have to be good. 314 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:05.000 Communicat and don't be scared about the issue because because 315 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:08.519 when issues up and in production, you still have to 316 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:12.839 find solution very quickly. And also problem solving is a 317 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:16.920 very good competency that you have that you need. The 318 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:21.519 things that scare me about soft skill that it's very 319 00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:25.480 hard to develop the soft skill, so that are not 320 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:28.880 courses that you can buy on Eudemy or on some 321 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:33.519 other training platform for being able to communicate on something 322 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:37.200 like that. So this is a good question. 323 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:39.200 This is a good question. Probably I don't have a 324 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:40.839 good answer for that. 325 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:43.519 Yeah, that's a great point. I agree one hundred percent. 326 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:47.359 Maybe that can be our next pops acronym. As we 327 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:54.519 create a we create a generator framework for communications. It 328 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.559 just automatically generates the right buzzword for you to say 329 00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:58.359 at the right time. 330 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:04.039 And did you ever speak pig latin? 331 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:04.680 Will? 332 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:08.200 I think we might be onto something here. We could 333 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:10.799 do something like that just at the end of every work. 334 00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:14.960 In your sentence, this is what happens when Chuck leaves 335 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:16.240 us alone to do the podcast. 336 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:19.279 This is how I convince him never to leave us 337 00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:19.880 alone again. 338 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:23.759 I love that. I love that well. 339 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.880 I liked your article. I like the point it's I mean, 340 00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:29.000 it's basically a joke, now, isn't it that you can 341 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:30.839 just add ops to everything. I mean, we were making 342 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.000 the literal joke about it, but back in the industry 343 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.079 it's a joke. You can just call anything ops baseball ops, 344 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:40.680 and football ops, and and people ops and whatever. It's 345 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:43.160 it's almost lost its meaning. But you really make a 346 00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:46.680 good point. You know that the principles are essentially the same. 347 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:50.359 The idea of making things simpler through through the use 348 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:54.640 of automation and tearing down silos. And that's that's valuable. 349 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:56.359 Whatever you want to call it, whether we call it 350 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:59.039 dev sec ops or DevOps or whatever, it's a it's 351 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:01.359 a great goal and has proven very valuable. 352 00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:02.640 Sure agreed. 353 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:07.759 So when you talked about this article, was was inspired 354 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:11.160 by a convent on your previous article which is about apples? 355 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.480 Was that was that intended as a as a sort 356 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:17.160 of tongue in cheek or sarcasm or a joke or 357 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:20.640 was that what was your what was your point about apples? 358 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:21.599 Sure? Sure? 359 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:27.039 Is why I told never trust who who is writing 360 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:30.480 the article like the bobbies that long life to because 361 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:36.759 this is a little click bait title, of course, of course, 362 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:39.640 but we we have also to find a way enough 363 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:42.720 for being read, so we had to put such kind 364 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:46.119 of titles to be read. But the content of the 365 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:51.160 article talks about still talks about the the principle of 366 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:57.680 finding a way for putting your attention on apps instead 367 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:02.440 of infrastructure. And this this is important to remember, especially 368 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:06.319 when you adopt some tool like Kubernetes, an example that 369 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:09.480 is a very very good tool and can be used 370 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:14.759 a cloud and simplify your life, but need a strong governance. 371 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:20.119 And in this article, I find a way for finding tools, 372 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:25.599 for finding tools that could be able to simplify to 373 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:31.319 simplify the Kubernet's governance and let you focus just on 374 00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:37.400 the source code development and doing that. What happened happened 375 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:40.680 that you write the code and you describe how the 376 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:46.119 application should be deployed, and everything is done by itself, 377 00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:52.720 So don't worry about pods, services scaling, repass scaling and so. 378 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:57.200 So this is a good way for starting approaching kuberneties 379 00:23:57.240 --> 00:23:59.359 and the deployment itself in. 380 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:00.160 A different way. 381 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:03.759 So just take us with code and describe how the 382 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:08.079 application should be deployed. Don't worry about what will happen 383 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:11.839 because you can support. There will be a tool that 384 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.480 will take this information and we'll translay this information into 385 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.240 an infrastructure for your application. 386 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:20.799 You brought up a really good point earlier, and I 387 00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:22.640 want to highlight it because I think there's a lot 388 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:27.279 of hidden value in it. You mentioned, specifically in regards 389 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:32.079 to app ops, that that puts the value on the 390 00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:36.279 things that your customers are paying you for. Right because 391 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:38.960 and I've heard this stated multiple ways in the past, 392 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:42.680 but basically, like, no customer is ever buying your product 393 00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:47.039 because of because of how you build your docer files. Right, 394 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:50.920 They're paying you for the service that you're providing, and 395 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:53.839 I think that's really important. You know, it's not to 396 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:57.759 say that like creating good, efficient, secure docer files is 397 00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:01.519 not important, because it is, but it's important to keep 398 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:05.160 it in perspective in like what's its role in the 399 00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:08.480 business of generating money for this company? 400 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:11.680 Sure, and this this is hard to say because we 401 00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:16.200