Speaker 1: What's going on? Everyone?
Speaker 2: I'm Will Button and this is Adventures in DevOps. Today
Speaker 2: I've got the co host with the most with me,
Speaker 2: Jonathan Hall.
Speaker 3: Hey, everybody, how's it going?
Speaker 2: And today we have our very special guests Danielle Fontani.
Speaker 2: How are you man, I'm fine, I'm fine.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having.
Speaker 3: Met an adventure and DevOps, this effort and getting this
Speaker 3: this recorded. It has truly been an adventure.
Speaker 4: Sure, Sure, we are talking about adventure and.
Speaker 3: Is the.
Speaker 2: So we've actually got an article from you about I
Speaker 2: gonna gonna pull up the title because the title just
Speaker 2: cracks me up. Tri Sarah tops why DevOps is not
Speaker 2: only an acronym and this is a great article to read.
Speaker 2: We'll put a link to it in the show notes.
Speaker 2: But it's that the unique combination of being humorous and informative.
Speaker 2: And so we're going to dig into that and talk
Speaker 2: about acronyms and develops. But first, for any of our
Speaker 2: listeners who may not be familiar with this, you want
Speaker 2: to give us a little bit about your background.
Speaker 4: Sure, I work as a CEO in seeing traditional business
Speaker 4: at a digital company and we try to help companies
Speaker 4: for accelerating their digital transformation of cours and in this company,
Speaker 4: I love to devise about the VopS of COURTSA. In
Speaker 4: the spare time, I love to play with open source
Speaker 4: project and contribute to the community. And I love also
Speaker 4: to write article for sharing my opinion and be in
Speaker 4: touch with the community itself. So that's why also I'm
Speaker 4: here and I love to be here with you.
Speaker 2: So tell us how did you get to How did
Speaker 2: you even get to the point where you were writing
Speaker 2: an article called tri sterotops? Why the VopS is not
Speaker 2: only an acronym?
Speaker 4: Oh sure, sure, the story is quite it's quite funny.
Speaker 4: It's quite funny because it comes from a previous article.
Speaker 4: My previous article that was that has a little bit provocative,
Speaker 4: provocative title the VopS is.
Speaker 1: Dead Long life to pops.
Speaker 4: Where where in that article I write about why we
Speaker 4: should focus more on the app development and try to
Speaker 4: find some way to automate the application development instead of
Speaker 4: wasting a lot of time on the infrastructure. And then
Speaker 4: already one user reply to the comment and tell me
Speaker 4: what would be the next the next one acronymus in
Speaker 4: the bobs would be patched out of So this make
Speaker 4: me loved so much, And I told myself I will
Speaker 4: have to write an article about that.
Speaker 1: So that's how, and I think.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to use this, I have to say.
Speaker 3: I mean, I have these conversations all the time where
Speaker 3: someone's like, what do you think about DevOps, sep secups,
Speaker 3: blah blah blah blah, and I'm going to just start
Speaker 3: throwing pops in there.
Speaker 4: Sure, But now that we have learned that, the algorithm
Speaker 4: is quite simple because you can take the OPS word
Speaker 4: and put something on in front in front of that,
Speaker 4: so you can be everything ups of course, but at
Speaker 4: the end it's always the bobs because there are many
Speaker 4: way many improvement of the same things. When we talk
Speaker 4: about guitops, we don't it's not something different than hobs
Speaker 4: on the scopes, and so I think that at the end,
Speaker 4: what you are doing is the VopS of course, but
Speaker 4: there are many ways to do that. There are many
Speaker 4: driver One one important driver is about automation and reduce
Speaker 4: the human effort on on the operation side, and how
Speaker 4: you can do that. You can do that by implementing hobs.
Speaker 4: You can do but at the end, what is no
Speaker 4: hobs not, of course, it is use using the cloud
Speaker 4: and implementing automation or using tool that do that do
Speaker 4: that for you. So at the end, probably there is
Speaker 4: only one the VOBS topic. I don't know what you
Speaker 4: think about that, but I don't see too many difference
Speaker 4: between two approach. What I see is a way for
Speaker 4: putting something inside our actual the VopS process, like the
Speaker 4: think about the set cops. You know this is another badsword.
Speaker 4: Everybody will do that, But what is the se cops
Speaker 4: in the end is really different than the VopS or
Speaker 4: it's really different implement a process.
Speaker 1: Rather than the regular the best process.
Speaker 4: I don't think so, because you just have to add
Speaker 4: another add other people into the process, add or other
Speaker 4: competencies into the process.
Speaker 1: If you are able to have auto meet automated.
Speaker 4: Tests on application, maybe you can also automate security tests.
Speaker 1: So form a.
Speaker 4: Point of view, all that are buds work And we
Speaker 4: have to hear that bads word because I think it's
Speaker 4: important to to have to listen to the new new
Speaker 4: trends and follow the new trends and take what is
Speaker 4: good in that. But then we have to put into
Speaker 4: into our reality. We have to put in practice what
Speaker 4: theories tells and and the thing that this is the
Speaker 4: probably this is the the most important thing to remember
Speaker 4: when we see some acronymous or badsword in in some Twitter.
Speaker 1: Or LinkedIn post.
Speaker 4: And if you if you read some title like the
Speaker 4: VopS is dead long life to hypops, of course, don't
Speaker 4: trust this this article is. Don't trust that outdoor because
Speaker 4: probably they are trying to to tell you something not
Speaker 4: not too terrible. Probably it's just something that you can
Speaker 4: add to your to your experience, but it's not something revolutionary.
Speaker 4: What else I believe? I really believe in the no
Speaker 4: hops trend. Just we talking that you don't believe the acronymus,
Speaker 4: but I really love the driver of putting less effort
Speaker 4: as possible on the operation part.
Speaker 1: And this of course for.
Speaker 4: Me, it doesn't mean forget about that part or take
Speaker 4: some risks. Of course, you have to use an infrastructure
Speaker 4: that works, that is performat. But what you should do
Speaker 4: is to use as much as possible tools and platforms
Speaker 4: that make possible that you have to focus only on
Speaker 4: the software part. Because more time you spend on the
Speaker 4: software part, more value you put in your product, and
Speaker 4: more value has your product and more customers will will
Speaker 4: buy it. So we have to focus on what brings
Speaker 4: value to us.
Speaker 1: This can be done. This, This is possible.
Speaker 4: This is possible because we have a lot of tool
Speaker 4: in the market for automating releases an example, for automating
Speaker 4: testing example. We have a lot of tools that automatically
Speaker 4: bid your application and deploy to an infrastructure that is
Speaker 4: fully managed. Maybe, of course, and we can use hyperscaler services.
Speaker 4: But I think this is a very very good driver,
Speaker 4: a very very good driver because every minute you spend
Speaker 4: our mounting our drive on a server or connecting with
Speaker 4: cable through devices, it's time that you've asked because the
Speaker 4: cloud do it do that for you? And cloud services
Speaker 4: are areable, are performance and are good. And when I
Speaker 4: talk about this transformation, a lot of seas are mean,
Speaker 4: are scared because they think.
Speaker 1: What will happen to me? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Sure, a lot of people are carried by as carried
Speaker 4: by the kind of article I write, because they ask
Speaker 4: what will be my future? The future will be different.
Speaker 4: I think that everybody has to change. If we think
Speaker 4: about informatic chance and programming ten years ago is very
Speaker 4: different and in the next tenty years will be more different.
Speaker 4: So we are evolving. The vobs is spreading and forces.
Speaker 4: I mean, guys, they have to start at asformation. Transformation
Speaker 4: could be become DevOps, but there are a lot of
Speaker 4: other things that we have to do.
Speaker 1: Even if you have even if.
Speaker 4: You are approaching and no OP scenario, we will still
Speaker 4: have to monitor the application. We will still have to
Speaker 4: take care about security, we will still have to take
Speaker 4: care about invoices, and we are it's easy to start
Speaker 4: a cloud service. We just have to put credit card
Speaker 4: number into the system and you are set.
Speaker 1: But what is there.
Speaker 4: The problem is that every month, every month, you will
Speaker 4: have an invoice and you have to pay attention about
Speaker 4: what you are paying, what you are taking for. And
Speaker 4: this is a this is a new job, a new job.
Speaker 4: Of course, big companies spend thousands, not thousands, but hundreds
Speaker 4: of thousands of dollars monthly in clouds. So if you say,
Speaker 4: if you are to if you are able to save
Speaker 4: the teen percent of unused the resources, or you do improvement,
Speaker 4: this is a good value and maybe you will stop
Speaker 4: to plug cable and you will start to take care
Speaker 4: about financial and financial aspect. Another Bads'm sorry for that. Also,
Speaker 4: pops is another trend that that that is that will
Speaker 4: be important more and more. We will use the cloud
Speaker 4: more and more we will get invoices from the cloud,
Speaker 4: from the cloud, and more and more we want to
Speaker 4: be sure to spend for what we use. So there
Speaker 4: are a lot of new professions that that are that
Speaker 4: are growing near the develops, near the clouds. So I
Speaker 4: won't be scared. I don't want to be scared about
Speaker 4: the end of the OM premise because we have always
Speaker 4: feared to to talk about that. But but the compromises
Speaker 4: is low in dying. I don't know for how many
Speaker 4: years we will still have compromise data center, for how
Speaker 4: many heres we will still have to plug cable on?
Speaker 1: How are that center?
Speaker 4: So for most of us, the time of the retirement
Speaker 4: is very long, so we have to we have to
Speaker 4: think about what we have to do until that. So
Speaker 4: if Areas is I mean, guys, I won't be scared
Speaker 4: about the vopes, I won't be scared about no hopes.
Speaker 4: I will take this as an opportunity of being able
Speaker 4: to change my my work, change my professional and do
Speaker 4: something that brings more value for the for the company
Speaker 4: and for myself. But probably I see that I'm probably
Speaker 4: I don't want to be too rude, but I but
Speaker 4: I think this is the reality.
Speaker 2: Probably yeah, no, I agree with you a hundred percent.
Speaker 2: Like there's no oh scenario in technology where you can
Speaker 2: get a job and do that same job for the
Speaker 2: next thirty or forty years until you retire. Like there's
Speaker 2: just that just doesn't exist. And if that's important to
Speaker 2: you in your career, technology is probably the wrong career
Speaker 2: path for you.
Speaker 3: Become a waiter, right, people always want to eat?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Sure, And by the way, I was a waiter and
Speaker 3: I loved it. It's fun work. I'm not missing the job.
Speaker 2: I've actually never done that.
Speaker 3: You are missing out. We just need waiter ops now, foodofs.
Speaker 3: And I agree, I mean the truth this. I mean
Speaker 3: I actually had somebody asking the other day, aren't you
Speaker 3: concerned about shift left because doesn't that just mean automating
Speaker 3: more things? And my response was not, really, I'm not.
Speaker 3: I mean, yes, that's maybe what it means, or part
Speaker 3: of what it means, but somebody has to write and
Speaker 3: maintain that automation. And you know, until we invent general AI,
Speaker 3: which may or may never happen, there's always going to
Speaker 3: be people who are maintaining automation. And that's what I mean,
Speaker 3: that's kind of what develops has become right, so that
Speaker 3: this practice is not going anywhere anytime soon. It will
Speaker 3: change in every way, but it's it's not we're not
Speaker 3: getting We're not going to be replacing people with with automations.
Speaker 4: Sure, but if you think not only technology, not relate
Speaker 4: into the technology, but if you think what happened on
Speaker 4: the industrial revolution, it's the same. Nobody nowadays can think
Speaker 4: about going producing a car without using machines, and the
Speaker 4: same is in the in the in programming and in.
Speaker 1: The vobs and so on.
Speaker 4: If we can avoid the human effort of courts, there
Speaker 4: is no vision.
Speaker 1: There is no vision.
Speaker 4: To still spend many days instead of money.
Speaker 1: There is no reasion.
Speaker 2: I think one of the other things that you touched
Speaker 2: on it's really resonates with me, is the whole business
Speaker 2: of monitoring cloud expenses, and I think a lot of
Speaker 2: people underestimate how big of a value that is. You know,
Speaker 2: one just to be able to help identify where those
Speaker 2: expenses are and control those costs. But for a lot
Speaker 2: of us it may be the first time in your
Speaker 2: career when you can actually quantify the value that you
Speaker 2: bring to a company. You know, a lot of times
Speaker 2: if you're a sisadmin, or an IT administrator or a
Speaker 2: network engineer that's like a fixed cost. You know, you
Speaker 2: can go to any number of websites and see what
Speaker 2: your salary is going to be within a certain range.
Speaker 2: But when you get into like managing cloud based expenses,
Speaker 2: your value, you're like, the value you provide to be
Speaker 2: able to cut someone's cloud bill by ten percent is
Speaker 2: going to be different from someone who's spending in ten
Speaker 2: thousand dollars a month on the cloud versus some one
Speaker 2: who's spending two hundred thousand dollars a month on the cloud,
Speaker 2: And so ten percent gives you a way to quantify
Speaker 2: the work that you're doing. And whenever you can do that,
Speaker 2: it gives you the ability to negotiate what you want
Speaker 2: as a salary, which is something that you unique to
Speaker 2: people from SIS admin, it even programming backgrounds.
Speaker 4: Sure of course, uh it is one of the new
Speaker 4: professions that that will be very important. And of course,
Speaker 4: as you're told, the more high is the expense of
Speaker 4: the company, and more you are useful in that in
Speaker 4: that role and for us as adminting guys, the question
Speaker 4: is where I can bring more value plugging a cable
Speaker 4: or spending five minium to control the cost. Probably the
Speaker 4: answer is the second one, and probably you will need
Speaker 4: not only technical competencies but also financial and other kinds
Speaker 4: of competency. So this requires this teach us. Another thing
Speaker 4: that another turn that's happening is that involves developers and
Speaker 4: the bobs guys, and that teach us to learn not
Speaker 4: only are skill and not early technical and technical competencies,
Speaker 4: but also work on the soft skill because also being
Speaker 4: able to read the balance or number is important for
Speaker 4: his administrating a cloud, a cloud services. And moreover, think
Speaker 4: about the scenario when you have more than one cloud
Speaker 4: provider because a lot of companies now are implementing multi
Speaker 4: cloud strategy because they fear they're low key and they
Speaker 4: don't want to stay on only one IPS scaler because
Speaker 4: it could it could fail and what is there is
Speaker 4: some issues, so they stay multi cloud. That multi cloud
Speaker 4: is harder to maintain because you have service is spread
Speaker 4: along multiple vendors with different pressing models, with different invoices,
Speaker 4: and this is very hard to manage and it is
Speaker 4: very easy to forget about united resources left active some
Speaker 4: servers an example that you are not using this need
Speaker 4: attention and more need attention. The fact that in this
Speaker 4: complex scenario. In this complex scenario, there are also security
Speaker 4: security problems that we have to monitor. So cloud is
Speaker 4: a very good opportunity for people.
Speaker 1: That are more related with harder.
Speaker 4: To grow and to start a new career probably and
Speaker 4: bring more value to companies and bring more valid to
Speaker 4: itself because for what I see on job advices, the
Speaker 4: boss professional very very well paid in the world, and
Speaker 4: more and more paid. So this is another thing that
Speaker 4: we have to take in account at the end.
Speaker 3: Yeah, very good.
Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting. I hadn't really thought about
Speaker 2: this until now, But I deal a lot with people
Speaker 2: who are starting their develops careers, and a lot of
Speaker 2: the focuses on the technical skills. But from your perspective,
Speaker 2: like there's a huge or it feels like a huge
Speaker 2: unserved market of these other skills, you know, the financial
Speaker 2: skills and the communication skills, and like the business skills
Speaker 2: to be able to translate business requirements into develops or
Speaker 2: infrastructure requirements and then quantify that.
Speaker 4: You're right, I probably I have not a clear handswer
Speaker 4: is hard to quantify this amount of competencies. But even
Speaker 4: in the in the programming world, the developer need to
Speaker 4: be more and more and more able to communicate with teammates.
Speaker 4: And also, I don't know if you remember maybe ten
Speaker 4: years ago when we have UH software developer and then architects.
Speaker 4: With the cloud, each developer have to be more architect
Speaker 4: and less developer because you if you know which piece
Speaker 4: take from the cloud and put together, you will save
Speaker 4: a lot of time. So competencies are really changing and
Speaker 4: having good soft skill helps a lot on the Bobs career.
Speaker 4: Probably the most important, the most important soft skill I
Speaker 4: can image the communication one, because you often are in
Speaker 4: the middle between software and infrastructure and you have to
Speaker 4: understand what is happening. Often it's hard to find the
Speaker 4: true between between software and infrastructure and software doesn't work.
Speaker 1: So we have to be good.
Speaker 4: Communicat and don't be scared about the issue because because
Speaker 4: when issues up and in production, you still have to
Speaker 4: find solution very quickly. And also problem solving is a
Speaker 4: very good competency that you have that you need. The
Speaker 4: things that scare me about soft skill that it's very
Speaker 4: hard to develop the soft skill, so that are not
Speaker 4: courses that you can buy on Eudemy or on some
Speaker 4: other training platform for being able to communicate on something
Speaker 4: like that. So this is a good question.
Speaker 1: This is a good question. Probably I don't have a
Speaker 1: good answer for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point. I agree one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: Maybe that can be our next pops acronym. As we
Speaker 2: create a we create a generator framework for communications. It
Speaker 2: just automatically generates the right buzzword for you to say
Speaker 2: at the right time.
Speaker 3: And did you ever speak pig latin?
Speaker 1: Will?
Speaker 3: I think we might be onto something here. We could
Speaker 3: do something like that just at the end of every work.
Speaker 2: In your sentence, this is what happens when Chuck leaves
Speaker 2: us alone to do the podcast.
Speaker 3: This is how I convince him never to leave us
Speaker 3: alone again.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that well.
Speaker 3: I liked your article. I like the point it's I mean,
Speaker 3: it's basically a joke, now, isn't it that you can
Speaker 3: just add ops to everything. I mean, we were making
Speaker 3: the literal joke about it, but back in the industry
Speaker 3: it's a joke. You can just call anything ops baseball ops,
Speaker 3: and football ops, and and people ops and whatever. It's
Speaker 3: it's almost lost its meaning. But you really make a
Speaker 3: good point. You know that the principles are essentially the same.
Speaker 3: The idea of making things simpler through through the use
Speaker 3: of automation and tearing down silos. And that's that's valuable.
Speaker 3: Whatever you want to call it, whether we call it
Speaker 3: dev sec ops or DevOps or whatever, it's a it's
Speaker 3: a great goal and has proven very valuable.
Speaker 2: Sure agreed.
Speaker 3: So when you talked about this article, was was inspired
Speaker 3: by a convent on your previous article which is about apples?
Speaker 3: Was that was that intended as a as a sort
Speaker 3: of tongue in cheek or sarcasm or a joke or
Speaker 3: was that what was your what was your point about apples?
Speaker 1: Sure? Sure?
Speaker 4: Is why I told never trust who who is writing
Speaker 4: the article like the bobbies that long life to because
Speaker 4: this is a little click bait title, of course, of course,
Speaker 4: but we we have also to find a way enough
Speaker 4: for being read, so we had to put such kind
Speaker 4: of titles to be read. But the content of the
Speaker 4: article talks about still talks about the the principle of
Speaker 4: finding a way for putting your attention on apps instead
Speaker 4: of infrastructure. And this this is important to remember, especially
Speaker 4: when you adopt some tool like Kubernetes, an example that
Speaker 4: is a very very good tool and can be used
Speaker 4: a cloud and simplify your life, but need a strong governance.
Speaker 4: And in this article, I find a way for finding tools,
Speaker 4: for finding tools that could be able to simplify to
Speaker 4: simplify the Kubernet's governance and let you focus just on
Speaker 4: the source code development and doing that. What happened happened
Speaker 4: that you write the code and you describe how the
Speaker 4: application should be deployed, and everything is done by itself,
Speaker 4: So don't worry about pods, services scaling, repass scaling and so.
Speaker 4: So this is a good way for starting approaching kuberneties
Speaker 4: and the deployment itself in.
Speaker 1: A different way.
Speaker 4: So just take us with code and describe how the
Speaker 4: application should be deployed. Don't worry about what will happen
Speaker 4: because you can support. There will be a tool that
Speaker 4: will take this information and we'll translay this information into
Speaker 4: an infrastructure for your application.
Speaker 2: You brought up a really good point earlier, and I
Speaker 2: want to highlight it because I think there's a lot
Speaker 2: of hidden value in it. You mentioned, specifically in regards
Speaker 2: to app ops, that that puts the value on the
Speaker 2: things that your customers are paying you for. Right because
Speaker 2: and I've heard this stated multiple ways in the past,
Speaker 2: but basically, like, no customer is ever buying your product
Speaker 2: because of because of how you build your docer files. Right,
Speaker 2: They're paying you for the service that you're providing, and
Speaker 2: I think that's really important. You know, it's not to
Speaker 2: say that like creating good, efficient, secure docer files is
Speaker 2: not important, because it is, but it's important to keep
Speaker 2: it in perspective in like what's its role in the
Speaker 2: business of generating money for this company?
Speaker 4: Sure, and this this is hard to say because we
Speaker 4: as technician, we love to let the customer how we
Speaker 4: are doing things, and we put a lot of effort
Speaker 4: for keep possible that the product works for writing code,
Speaker 4: I mean creating good infrastucted. But the customer basically don't
Speaker 4: mind about that. So this is not important that the
Speaker 4: software is safe because he knows the software is safe.
Speaker 4: It's a requirement, so we cannot. It's not surprised if
Speaker 4: you tell that you are doing the best you are
Speaker 4: using the best tool have it. It's supposed to you
Speaker 4: to use. So it's important to keep up to be
Speaker 4: attention to where the money comes from. And when I
Speaker 4: tell product, I'm not referring only to startups or says product,
Speaker 4: but every company. Every company has a core business and
Speaker 4: in this core business there is inside some part of
Speaker 4: the ETO. Nowadays, we cannot start run a company without
Speaker 4: some its some software development and this is part of
Speaker 4: the product.
Speaker 1: But you have to pay attention.
Speaker 4: You have to be able to move your attention, your
Speaker 4: mess days and your mind to the software development, to
Speaker 4: the application development, to the future. And if you can
Speaker 4: find a way for using tool or solution that work
Speaker 4: by itself and you can buy so you cannot forget
Speaker 4: about infrastructure, you cannot forget about the VopS and so on.
Speaker 4: But you have to find the way for buy things
Speaker 4: that works without human effort.
Speaker 1: This is my opinion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, Well said you're here, all right, what
Speaker 2: else should we talk about? Sounds like we have consensus.
Speaker 1: Then it was a great event to solve the world.
Speaker 2: We just need the right acronym to sell it.
Speaker 4: Sure, Sure, when you will discover a new acronym, just
Speaker 4: let me know. I will write a new article on
Speaker 4: that deal.
Speaker 1: It must be the first one of writing.
Speaker 2: Gotta get that first round, se o clickbait.
Speaker 1: Sure, sure is his chancellor.
Speaker 2: All right, so we're ready to wrap this episode up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess we read some pics, don't we we do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, Danielle. At the end of each episode we
Speaker 2: do we do a pic. It can be something technical
Speaker 2: related or not technical related, just something to has peeked
Speaker 2: our interest, and then we use that as our pick.
Speaker 2: So we'll throw out our picks. Then if there's something
Speaker 2: something for you that you would like to share with
Speaker 2: the listeners, we'll give you a chance to do that. Okay,
Speaker 2: all right, Jonathan, you want to kick us off?
Speaker 3: Sure, I wasn't prepared. Actually, even though I reminded you,
Speaker 3: I wasn't prepared. But I guess I'll get with a pick.
Speaker 3: So I actually used to work for the company that
Speaker 3: makes the product with a pick. But my wife and
Speaker 3: I just bought our second Bugaboo stroller. Bugaboo makes really
Speaker 3: nice strollers, so we have one we had since my
Speaker 3: son was born almost a year ago, but we wanted
Speaker 3: a new one that's more compact because we just went
Speaker 3: on a long road trip and it was a little
Speaker 3: bit of a pain to put it in and out.
Speaker 1: Of the trunk.
Speaker 3: So Bugaboo has a new stroller called the Ant, which
Speaker 3: actually collapses into a size that we'll fit an overhead
Speaker 3: compartment on an airplane. So wow, we just got the
Speaker 3: stroller earlier this week, put it together and we haven't
Speaker 3: actually flown with it yet, but it looks nice. It's
Speaker 3: a sturdy stroller, it's nice quality staff. They are a
Speaker 3: little bit on the expensive side, but they are high
Speaker 3: quality and they have a high resell value. So after
Speaker 3: your kids outgrow your your Buggaboo, you can resell it
Speaker 3: and get and recoup a big portion of your investment.
Speaker 3: So that's my pick for this week. Bugaboo.
Speaker 1: Nice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and some of those are absolutely huge. They're like
Speaker 2: monster truck sized strollers.
Speaker 1: They have.
Speaker 3: They have a twin one that actually fits two kids
Speaker 3: next to it, So if you have twins or you
Speaker 3: have two children that are that are both stroller aids,
Speaker 3: they don't have to be the same same age, but
Speaker 3: you could have an infant with a two year old,
Speaker 3: for example, you can put them side by side. So yeah,
Speaker 3: they have quite a range of different options. Nice.
Speaker 2: All right, So my pick for the week is going
Speaker 2: to be a non technical pick. It's a new book
Speaker 2: I picked up. Courage is calling Fortune Favors The Brave
Speaker 2: from Ryan Holiday and it's just getting started into it,
Speaker 2: but it's it's really cool. I've read multiple Ryan Holiday
Speaker 2: books and I think he always has does a great
Speaker 2: job of like relating everyday struggles back to like how
Speaker 2: philosophers would handle that, you know, and how to stick
Speaker 2: to your your moral code. And so this one, it's
Speaker 2: actually recently written. It's very relevant to the world that
Speaker 2: we live in today, and I'm enjoying it. So if
Speaker 2: you're looking for like a how to guide for twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one and what comes into future, courage is calling
Speaker 2: Fortune Favors the Brave by Ryan Holiday, say.
Speaker 3: How two for twenty twenty one? But you know how
Speaker 3: to have done it already one. Well, there's like two
Speaker 3: weeks left when this episode comes up.
Speaker 2: Well, it could be a busy two weeks, it could be,
Speaker 2: all right, Danielle, how about you. You got anything to
Speaker 2: pick for us?
Speaker 1: I'm good.
Speaker 4: I'm waiting for some form arresting in the Crease Mass
Speaker 4: Holidays because I need that nice yes, yes, all right?
Speaker 2: Cool. Well I think that's going to wrap up our episode. Danielle,
Speaker 2: thank you so much. This has been a really fun episode.
Speaker 2: It's been a really cool topic. I've enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Thank you really for this chat.
Speaker 4: It was very very interesting and sorry for the technical
Speaker 4: problems with connection, but at the end, I'm very happy that.
Speaker 1: We find a solution, this adventure develops.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's what we do. Still solutions, right, sure.
Speaker 1: It is what we do exactly. Okay, thank you, bye
Speaker 1: bye