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Speaker 1: What's going on? Everyone?

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Speaker 2: I'm Will Button and this is Adventures in DevOps. Today

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I've got the co host with the most with me,

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Jonathan Hall.

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Speaker 3: Hey, everybody, how's it going?

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Speaker 2: And today we have our very special guests Danielle Fontani.

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How are you man, I'm fine, I'm fine.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having.

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Speaker 3: Met an adventure and DevOps, this effort and getting this

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this recorded. It has truly been an adventure.

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Speaker 4: Sure, Sure, we are talking about adventure and.

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Speaker 3: Is the.

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Speaker 2: So we've actually got an article from you about I

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gonna gonna pull up the title because the title just

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cracks me up. Tri Sarah tops why DevOps is not

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only an acronym and this is a great article to read.

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We'll put a link to it in the show notes.

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But it's that the unique combination of being humorous and informative.

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And so we're going to dig into that and talk

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about acronyms and develops. But first, for any of our

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listeners who may not be familiar with this, you want

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to give us a little bit about your background.

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Speaker 4: Sure, I work as a CEO in seeing traditional business

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at a digital company and we try to help companies

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for accelerating their digital transformation of cours and in this company,

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I love to devise about the VopS of COURTSA. In

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the spare time, I love to play with open source

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project and contribute to the community. And I love also

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to write article for sharing my opinion and be in

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touch with the community itself. So that's why also I'm

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here and I love to be here with you.

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Speaker 2: So tell us how did you get to How did

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you even get to the point where you were writing

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an article called tri sterotops? Why the VopS is not

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only an acronym?

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Speaker 4: Oh sure, sure, the story is quite it's quite funny.

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It's quite funny because it comes from a previous article.

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My previous article that was that has a little bit provocative,

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provocative title the VopS is.

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Speaker 1: Dead Long life to pops.

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Speaker 4: Where where in that article I write about why we

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should focus more on the app development and try to

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find some way to automate the application development instead of

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wasting a lot of time on the infrastructure. And then

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already one user reply to the comment and tell me

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what would be the next the next one acronymus in

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the bobs would be patched out of So this make

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me loved so much, And I told myself I will

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have to write an article about that.

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Speaker 1: So that's how, and I think.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to use this, I have to say.

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I mean, I have these conversations all the time where

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someone's like, what do you think about DevOps, sep secups,

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blah blah blah blah, and I'm going to just start

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throwing pops in there.

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Speaker 4: Sure, But now that we have learned that, the algorithm

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is quite simple because you can take the OPS word

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and put something on in front in front of that,

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so you can be everything ups of course, but at

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the end it's always the bobs because there are many

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way many improvement of the same things. When we talk

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about guitops, we don't it's not something different than hobs

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on the scopes, and so I think that at the end,

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what you are doing is the VopS of course, but

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there are many ways to do that. There are many

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driver One one important driver is about automation and reduce

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the human effort on on the operation side, and how

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you can do that. You can do that by implementing hobs.

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You can do but at the end, what is no

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hobs not, of course, it is use using the cloud

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and implementing automation or using tool that do that do

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that for you. So at the end, probably there is

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only one the VOBS topic. I don't know what you

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think about that, but I don't see too many difference

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between two approach. What I see is a way for

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putting something inside our actual the VopS process, like the

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think about the set cops. You know this is another badsword.

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Everybody will do that, But what is the se cops

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in the end is really different than the VopS or

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it's really different implement a process.

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Speaker 1: Rather than the regular the best process.

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Speaker 4: I don't think so, because you just have to add

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another add other people into the process, add or other

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competencies into the process.

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Speaker 1: If you are able to have auto meet automated.

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Speaker 4: Tests on application, maybe you can also automate security tests.

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Speaker 1: So form a.

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Speaker 4: Point of view, all that are buds work And we

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have to hear that bads word because I think it's

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important to to have to listen to the new new

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trends and follow the new trends and take what is

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good in that. But then we have to put into

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into our reality. We have to put in practice what

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theories tells and and the thing that this is the

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probably this is the the most important thing to remember

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when we see some acronymous or badsword in in some Twitter.

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Speaker 1: Or LinkedIn post.

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Speaker 4: And if you if you read some title like the

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VopS is dead long life to hypops, of course, don't

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trust this this article is. Don't trust that outdoor because

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probably they are trying to to tell you something not

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not too terrible. Probably it's just something that you can

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add to your to your experience, but it's not something revolutionary.

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What else I believe? I really believe in the no

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hops trend. Just we talking that you don't believe the acronymus,

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but I really love the driver of putting less effort

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as possible on the operation part.

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Speaker 1: And this of course for.

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Speaker 4: Me, it doesn't mean forget about that part or take

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some risks. Of course, you have to use an infrastructure

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that works, that is performat. But what you should do

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is to use as much as possible tools and platforms

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that make possible that you have to focus only on

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the software part. Because more time you spend on the

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software part, more value you put in your product, and

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more value has your product and more customers will will

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buy it. So we have to focus on what brings

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value to us.

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Speaker 1: This can be done. This, This is possible.

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Speaker 4: This is possible because we have a lot of tool

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in the market for automating releases an example, for automating

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testing example. We have a lot of tools that automatically

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bid your application and deploy to an infrastructure that is

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fully managed. Maybe, of course, and we can use hyperscaler services.

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But I think this is a very very good driver,

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a very very good driver because every minute you spend

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our mounting our drive on a server or connecting with

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cable through devices, it's time that you've asked because the

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cloud do it do that for you? And cloud services

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are areable, are performance and are good. And when I

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talk about this transformation, a lot of seas are mean,

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are scared because they think.

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Speaker 1: What will happen to me? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Sure, a lot of people are carried by as carried

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by the kind of article I write, because they ask

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what will be my future? The future will be different.

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I think that everybody has to change. If we think

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about informatic chance and programming ten years ago is very

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different and in the next tenty years will be more different.

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So we are evolving. The vobs is spreading and forces.

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I mean, guys, they have to start at asformation. Transformation

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could be become DevOps, but there are a lot of

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other things that we have to do.

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Speaker 1: Even if you have even if.

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Speaker 4: You are approaching and no OP scenario, we will still

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have to monitor the application. We will still have to

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take care about security, we will still have to take

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care about invoices, and we are it's easy to start

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a cloud service. We just have to put credit card

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number into the system and you are set.

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Speaker 1: But what is there.

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Speaker 4: The problem is that every month, every month, you will

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have an invoice and you have to pay attention about

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what you are paying, what you are taking for. And

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this is a this is a new job, a new job.

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Of course, big companies spend thousands, not thousands, but hundreds

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of thousands of dollars monthly in clouds. So if you say,

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if you are to if you are able to save

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the teen percent of unused the resources, or you do improvement,

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this is a good value and maybe you will stop

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to plug cable and you will start to take care

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about financial and financial aspect. Another Bads'm sorry for that. Also,

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pops is another trend that that that is that will

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be important more and more. We will use the cloud

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more and more we will get invoices from the cloud,

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from the cloud, and more and more we want to

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be sure to spend for what we use. So there

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are a lot of new professions that that are that

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are growing near the develops, near the clouds. So I

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won't be scared. I don't want to be scared about

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the end of the OM premise because we have always

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feared to to talk about that. But but the compromises

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is low in dying. I don't know for how many

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years we will still have compromise data center, for how

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many heres we will still have to plug cable on?

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Speaker 1: How are that center?

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Speaker 4: So for most of us, the time of the retirement

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is very long, so we have to we have to

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think about what we have to do until that. So

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if Areas is I mean, guys, I won't be scared

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about the vopes, I won't be scared about no hopes.

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I will take this as an opportunity of being able

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to change my my work, change my professional and do

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something that brings more value for the for the company

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and for myself. But probably I see that I'm probably

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I don't want to be too rude, but I but

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I think this is the reality.

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Speaker 2: Probably yeah, no, I agree with you a hundred percent.

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Like there's no oh scenario in technology where you can

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get a job and do that same job for the

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next thirty or forty years until you retire. Like there's

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just that just doesn't exist. And if that's important to

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you in your career, technology is probably the wrong career

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path for you.

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Speaker 3: Become a waiter, right, people always want to eat?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Sure, And by the way, I was a waiter and

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I loved it. It's fun work. I'm not missing the job.

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Speaker 2: I've actually never done that.

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Speaker 3: You are missing out. We just need waiter ops now, foodofs.

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And I agree, I mean the truth this. I mean

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I actually had somebody asking the other day, aren't you

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concerned about shift left because doesn't that just mean automating

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more things? And my response was not, really, I'm not.

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I mean, yes, that's maybe what it means, or part

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of what it means, but somebody has to write and

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maintain that automation. And you know, until we invent general AI,

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which may or may never happen, there's always going to

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be people who are maintaining automation. And that's what I mean,

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that's kind of what develops has become right, so that

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this practice is not going anywhere anytime soon. It will

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change in every way, but it's it's not we're not

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getting We're not going to be replacing people with with automations.

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Speaker 4: Sure, but if you think not only technology, not relate

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into the technology, but if you think what happened on

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the industrial revolution, it's the same. Nobody nowadays can think

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about going producing a car without using machines, and the

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same is in the in the in programming and in.

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Speaker 1: The vobs and so on.

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Speaker 4: If we can avoid the human effort of courts, there

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is no vision.

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Speaker 1: There is no vision.

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Speaker 4: To still spend many days instead of money.

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Speaker 1: There is no reasion.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the other things that you touched

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on it's really resonates with me, is the whole business

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of monitoring cloud expenses, and I think a lot of

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people underestimate how big of a value that is. You know,

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one just to be able to help identify where those

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expenses are and control those costs. But for a lot

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of us it may be the first time in your

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career when you can actually quantify the value that you

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bring to a company. You know, a lot of times

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if you're a sisadmin, or an IT administrator or a

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network engineer that's like a fixed cost. You know, you

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can go to any number of websites and see what

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your salary is going to be within a certain range.

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But when you get into like managing cloud based expenses,

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your value, you're like, the value you provide to be

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able to cut someone's cloud bill by ten percent is

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going to be different from someone who's spending in ten

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thousand dollars a month on the cloud versus some one

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who's spending two hundred thousand dollars a month on the cloud,

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And so ten percent gives you a way to quantify

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the work that you're doing. And whenever you can do that,

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it gives you the ability to negotiate what you want

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as a salary, which is something that you unique to

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people from SIS admin, it even programming backgrounds.

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Speaker 4: Sure of course, uh it is one of the new

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professions that that will be very important. And of course,

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as you're told, the more high is the expense of

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the company, and more you are useful in that in

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that role and for us as adminting guys, the question

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is where I can bring more value plugging a cable

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or spending five minium to control the cost. Probably the

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answer is the second one, and probably you will need

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not only technical competencies but also financial and other kinds

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of competency. So this requires this teach us. Another thing

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that another turn that's happening is that involves developers and

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the bobs guys, and that teach us to learn not

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only are skill and not early technical and technical competencies,

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but also work on the soft skill because also being

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able to read the balance or number is important for

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his administrating a cloud, a cloud services. And moreover, think

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about the scenario when you have more than one cloud

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provider because a lot of companies now are implementing multi

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cloud strategy because they fear they're low key and they

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don't want to stay on only one IPS scaler because

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it could it could fail and what is there is

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some issues, so they stay multi cloud. That multi cloud

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is harder to maintain because you have service is spread

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along multiple vendors with different pressing models, with different invoices,

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and this is very hard to manage and it is

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very easy to forget about united resources left active some

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servers an example that you are not using this need

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attention and more need attention. The fact that in this

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complex scenario. In this complex scenario, there are also security

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security problems that we have to monitor. So cloud is

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a very good opportunity for people.

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Speaker 1: That are more related with harder.

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Speaker 4: To grow and to start a new career probably and

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bring more value to companies and bring more valid to

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itself because for what I see on job advices, the

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boss professional very very well paid in the world, and

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more and more paid. So this is another thing that

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we have to take in account at the end.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, very good.

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Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting. I hadn't really thought about

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this until now, But I deal a lot with people

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who are starting their develops careers, and a lot of

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the focuses on the technical skills. But from your perspective,

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like there's a huge or it feels like a huge

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unserved market of these other skills, you know, the financial

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skills and the communication skills, and like the business skills

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to be able to translate business requirements into develops or

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infrastructure requirements and then quantify that.

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Speaker 4: You're right, I probably I have not a clear handswer

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is hard to quantify this amount of competencies. But even

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in the in the programming world, the developer need to

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be more and more and more able to communicate with teammates.

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And also, I don't know if you remember maybe ten

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years ago when we have UH software developer and then architects.

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With the cloud, each developer have to be more architect

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and less developer because you if you know which piece

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take from the cloud and put together, you will save

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a lot of time. So competencies are really changing and

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having good soft skill helps a lot on the Bobs career.

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Probably the most important, the most important soft skill I

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can image the communication one, because you often are in

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the middle between software and infrastructure and you have to

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understand what is happening. Often it's hard to find the

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true between between software and infrastructure and software doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: So we have to be good.

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Speaker 4: Communicat and don't be scared about the issue because because

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when issues up and in production, you still have to

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find solution very quickly. And also problem solving is a

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very good competency that you have that you need. The

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things that scare me about soft skill that it's very

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hard to develop the soft skill, so that are not

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courses that you can buy on Eudemy or on some

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other training platform for being able to communicate on something

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like that. So this is a good question.

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Speaker 1: This is a good question. Probably I don't have a

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good answer for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point. I agree one hundred percent.

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Maybe that can be our next pops acronym. As we

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create a we create a generator framework for communications. It

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just automatically generates the right buzzword for you to say

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at the right time.

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Speaker 3: And did you ever speak pig latin?

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Speaker 1: Will?

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Speaker 3: I think we might be onto something here. We could

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do something like that just at the end of every work.

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Speaker 2: In your sentence, this is what happens when Chuck leaves

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us alone to do the podcast.

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Speaker 3: This is how I convince him never to leave us

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alone again.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I love that well.

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Speaker 3: I liked your article. I like the point it's I mean,

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it's basically a joke, now, isn't it that you can

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just add ops to everything. I mean, we were making

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the literal joke about it, but back in the industry

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it's a joke. You can just call anything ops baseball ops,

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and football ops, and and people ops and whatever. It's

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it's almost lost its meaning. But you really make a

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good point. You know that the principles are essentially the same.

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The idea of making things simpler through through the use

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of automation and tearing down silos. And that's that's valuable.

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Whatever you want to call it, whether we call it

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dev sec ops or DevOps or whatever, it's a it's

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a great goal and has proven very valuable.

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Speaker 2: Sure agreed.

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Speaker 3: So when you talked about this article, was was inspired

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by a convent on your previous article which is about apples?

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Was that was that intended as a as a sort

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of tongue in cheek or sarcasm or a joke or

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was that what was your what was your point about apples?

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Speaker 1: Sure? Sure?

359
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,039
Speaker 4: Is why I told never trust who who is writing

360
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the article like the bobbies that long life to because

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this is a little click bait title, of course, of course,

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but we we have also to find a way enough

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for being read, so we had to put such kind

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of titles to be read. But the content of the

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article talks about still talks about the the principle of

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finding a way for putting your attention on apps instead

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of infrastructure. And this this is important to remember, especially

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when you adopt some tool like Kubernetes, an example that

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is a very very good tool and can be used

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a cloud and simplify your life, but need a strong governance.

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And in this article, I find a way for finding tools,

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for finding tools that could be able to simplify to

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simplify the Kubernet's governance and let you focus just on

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the source code development and doing that. What happened happened

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that you write the code and you describe how the

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application should be deployed, and everything is done by itself,

377
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So don't worry about pods, services scaling, repass scaling and so.

378
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So this is a good way for starting approaching kuberneties

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and the deployment itself in.

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Speaker 1: A different way.

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Speaker 4: So just take us with code and describe how the

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00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:08,079
application should be deployed. Don't worry about what will happen

383
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,839
because you can support. There will be a tool that

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will take this information and we'll translay this information into

385
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an infrastructure for your application.

386
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,799
Speaker 2: You brought up a really good point earlier, and I

387
00:24:20,839 --> 00:24:22,640
want to highlight it because I think there's a lot

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00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,279
of hidden value in it. You mentioned, specifically in regards

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to app ops, that that puts the value on the

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things that your customers are paying you for. Right because

391
00:24:36,319 --> 00:24:38,960
and I've heard this stated multiple ways in the past,

392
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,680
but basically, like, no customer is ever buying your product

393
00:24:42,839 --> 00:24:47,039
because of because of how you build your docer files. Right,

394
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They're paying you for the service that you're providing, and

395
00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:53,839
I think that's really important. You know, it's not to

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00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,759
say that like creating good, efficient, secure docer files is

397
00:24:57,799 --> 00:25:01,519
not important, because it is, but it's important to keep

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00:25:01,519 --> 00:25:05,160
it in perspective in like what's its role in the

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00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,480
business of generating money for this company?

400
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 4: Sure, and this this is hard to say because we

401
00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:16,200
as technician, we love to let the customer how we

402
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,799
are doing things, and we put a lot of effort

403
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,920
for keep possible that the product works for writing code,

404
00:25:24,519 --> 00:25:28,319
I mean creating good infrastucted. But the customer basically don't

405
00:25:28,319 --> 00:25:32,279
mind about that. So this is not important that the

406
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,039
software is safe because he knows the software is safe.

407
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:44,720
It's a requirement, so we cannot. It's not surprised if

408
00:25:44,759 --> 00:25:49,119
you tell that you are doing the best you are

409
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,279
using the best tool have it. It's supposed to you

410
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,759
to use. So it's important to keep up to be

411
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:01,880
attention to where the money comes from. And when I

412
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:08,680
tell product, I'm not referring only to startups or says product,

413
00:26:08,759 --> 00:26:14,079
but every company. Every company has a core business and

414
00:26:14,279 --> 00:26:17,680
in this core business there is inside some part of

415
00:26:17,759 --> 00:26:23,440
the ETO. Nowadays, we cannot start run a company without

416
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,319
some its some software development and this is part of

417
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:27,920
the product.

418
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: But you have to pay attention.

419
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 4: You have to be able to move your attention, your

420
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,079
mess days and your mind to the software development, to

421
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,559
the application development, to the future. And if you can

422
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,440
find a way for using tool or solution that work

423
00:26:47,559 --> 00:26:51,759
by itself and you can buy so you cannot forget

424
00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:55,480
about infrastructure, you cannot forget about the VopS and so on.

425
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,799
But you have to find the way for buy things

426
00:27:00,839 --> 00:27:02,680
that works without human effort.

427
00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:04,079
Speaker 1: This is my opinion.

428
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, Well said you're here, all right, what

429
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,160
else should we talk about? Sounds like we have consensus.

430
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,279
Speaker 1: Then it was a great event to solve the world.

431
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,279
Speaker 2: We just need the right acronym to sell it.

432
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:29,279
Speaker 4: Sure, Sure, when you will discover a new acronym, just

433
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,319
let me know. I will write a new article on

434
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,079
that deal.

435
00:27:35,279 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: It must be the first one of writing.

436
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,759
Speaker 2: Gotta get that first round, se o clickbait.

437
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: Sure, sure is his chancellor.

438
00:27:47,559 --> 00:27:50,559
Speaker 2: All right, so we're ready to wrap this episode up.

439
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess we read some pics, don't we we do?

440
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, Danielle. At the end of each episode we

441
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,119
do we do a pic. It can be something technical

442
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:03,759
related or not technical related, just something to has peeked

443
00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:06,599
our interest, and then we use that as our pick.

444
00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:09,880
So we'll throw out our picks. Then if there's something

445
00:28:10,559 --> 00:28:12,960
something for you that you would like to share with

446
00:28:13,039 --> 00:28:16,200
the listeners, we'll give you a chance to do that. Okay,

447
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,400
all right, Jonathan, you want to kick us off?

448
00:28:18,759 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 3: Sure, I wasn't prepared. Actually, even though I reminded you,

449
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,839
I wasn't prepared. But I guess I'll get with a pick.

450
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,960
So I actually used to work for the company that

451
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:28,799
makes the product with a pick. But my wife and

452
00:28:28,799 --> 00:28:32,000
I just bought our second Bugaboo stroller. Bugaboo makes really

453
00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:34,920
nice strollers, so we have one we had since my

454
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,079
son was born almost a year ago, but we wanted

455
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,559
a new one that's more compact because we just went

456
00:28:39,599 --> 00:28:41,880
on a long road trip and it was a little

457
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,519
bit of a pain to put it in and out.

458
00:28:43,359 --> 00:28:43,799
Speaker 1: Of the trunk.

459
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 3: So Bugaboo has a new stroller called the Ant, which

460
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,200
actually collapses into a size that we'll fit an overhead

461
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,359
compartment on an airplane. So wow, we just got the

462
00:28:52,359 --> 00:28:55,640
stroller earlier this week, put it together and we haven't

463
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,480
actually flown with it yet, but it looks nice. It's

464
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,000
a sturdy stroller, it's nice quality staff. They are a

465
00:29:01,039 --> 00:29:04,200
little bit on the expensive side, but they are high

466
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,279
quality and they have a high resell value. So after

467
00:29:07,319 --> 00:29:10,279
your kids outgrow your your Buggaboo, you can resell it

468
00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:12,559
and get and recoup a big portion of your investment.

469
00:29:12,599 --> 00:29:14,319
So that's my pick for this week. Bugaboo.

470
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: Nice.

471
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and some of those are absolutely huge. They're like

472
00:29:18,599 --> 00:29:20,680
monster truck sized strollers.

473
00:29:21,079 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: They have.

474
00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:24,119
Speaker 3: They have a twin one that actually fits two kids

475
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:25,680
next to it, So if you have twins or you

476
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,039
have two children that are that are both stroller aids,

477
00:29:28,039 --> 00:29:29,599
they don't have to be the same same age, but

478
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,119
you could have an infant with a two year old,

479
00:29:31,119 --> 00:29:33,880
for example, you can put them side by side. So yeah,

480
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,519
they have quite a range of different options. Nice.

481
00:29:36,599 --> 00:29:38,319
Speaker 2: All right, So my pick for the week is going

482
00:29:38,359 --> 00:29:41,240
to be a non technical pick. It's a new book

483
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,799
I picked up. Courage is calling Fortune Favors The Brave

484
00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:49,000
from Ryan Holiday and it's just getting started into it,

485
00:29:49,039 --> 00:29:51,799
but it's it's really cool. I've read multiple Ryan Holiday

486
00:29:51,799 --> 00:29:54,759
books and I think he always has does a great

487
00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:01,799
job of like relating everyday struggles back to like how

488
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,880
philosophers would handle that, you know, and how to stick

489
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,519
to your your moral code. And so this one, it's

490
00:30:08,599 --> 00:30:12,279
actually recently written. It's very relevant to the world that

491
00:30:12,319 --> 00:30:15,640
we live in today, and I'm enjoying it. So if

492
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,640
you're looking for like a how to guide for twenty

493
00:30:19,799 --> 00:30:23,079
twenty one and what comes into future, courage is calling

494
00:30:23,319 --> 00:30:26,920
Fortune Favors the Brave by Ryan Holiday, say.

495
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,799
Speaker 3: How two for twenty twenty one? But you know how

496
00:30:29,039 --> 00:30:32,759
to have done it already one. Well, there's like two

497
00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:34,200
weeks left when this episode comes up.

498
00:30:34,319 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: Well, it could be a busy two weeks, it could be,

499
00:30:39,319 --> 00:30:41,960
all right, Danielle, how about you. You got anything to

500
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:42,519
pick for us?

501
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:43,319
Speaker 1: I'm good.

502
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,839
Speaker 4: I'm waiting for some form arresting in the Crease Mass

503
00:30:48,119 --> 00:30:53,599
Holidays because I need that nice yes, yes, all right?

504
00:30:53,759 --> 00:30:57,319
Speaker 2: Cool. Well I think that's going to wrap up our episode. Danielle,

505
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,920
thank you so much. This has been a really fun episode.

506
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,119
It's been a really cool topic. I've enjoyed it.

507
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: Thank you really for this chat.

508
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 4: It was very very interesting and sorry for the technical

509
00:31:07,079 --> 00:31:11,240
problems with connection, but at the end, I'm very happy that.

510
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,119
Speaker 1: We find a solution, this adventure develops.

511
00:31:14,319 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's what we do. Still solutions, right, sure.

512
00:31:17,599 --> 00:31:21,279
Speaker 1: It is what we do exactly. Okay, thank you, bye

513
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:22,160
bye