1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:42,600 Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 14 00:00:42,719 --> 00:00:44,719 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 3: We're joined today by one of our very favorite guests, 16 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,359 Casey Sherman, here to talk to us about his new 17 00:00:49,359 --> 00:00:51,799 book Blood in the Water, The Untold story of a 18 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,320 family tragedy. Casey, welcome back to the podcast for your 19 00:00:55,679 --> 00:00:56,399 fourth time. 20 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:58,759 Speaker 4: It's so good to be back with you guys. You're 21 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,439 my favorite show and I feel like family, so I 22 00:01:01,479 --> 00:01:04,239 feel like this is a natural conversation that we always 23 00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:05,959 have about pretty tough subjects. 24 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,719 Speaker 2: I was just smiling, Kristen, because as you were introducing 25 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,959 Casey's new book, you read it in such an upbeat way, 26 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,280 and I thought, man, she makes blood in the water 27 00:01:15,439 --> 00:01:22,519 the untold story of a family tragedy sound like fun. 28 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:22,719 Speaker 4: Is. 29 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 3: It's the reason that I love reading your books, Casey, 30 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:28,400 and the reason that I think a lot of our 31 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,680 listeners love it too, is because you have such a wonderful, natural, 32 00:01:32,799 --> 00:01:35,719 easy way of telling a story and making it accessible 33 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,879 for everybody. You don't have to ever struggle through your 34 00:01:38,879 --> 00:01:42,159 books like sometimes people do with true crime. You do 35 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,079 a wonderful job of presenting it. And so that's why 36 00:01:45,079 --> 00:01:46,599 I do tend to think of your books so this 37 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,439 is fun true crime. I enjoy it. 38 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 4: I appreciate that, Kristin. And it's all about storytelling. It's 39 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,280 about capturing that reader and taking them on a journey 40 00:01:55,319 --> 00:01:58,760 that's very similar to the discovery phase that that I 41 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:03,280 took when I reached arched this incredibly complex case and 42 00:02:03,319 --> 00:02:06,359 then laid it out for the reader, where I don't 43 00:02:06,359 --> 00:02:10,520 necessarily judge the accused killer in this case, I lay 44 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,400 out the facts and I allow the reader to make 45 00:02:13,479 --> 00:02:16,000 up their own mond on what really happened, not only 46 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:20,000 in twenty thirteen where the first murder occurred, a twenty 47 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,840 sixteen where the national sensational crime at sea was alleged 48 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:25,520 to have happened. 49 00:02:25,879 --> 00:02:28,159 Speaker 3: And that's a great place to start. So go ahead 50 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,080 and outline for anybody who has not heard of Nathan 51 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,280 Carmon before, and the tragedies both in twenty thirteen and 52 00:02:35,319 --> 00:02:37,960 twenty sixteen late. Lay that out for us. Give us 53 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:39,120 the backbone of this case. 54 00:02:39,479 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 4: Sure, I would say, on a thirty thousand foot level, 55 00:02:43,039 --> 00:02:46,759 this story is really the talented mister Ripley meets the 56 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:51,520 murder murders because it's a story about wealth, a very 57 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:56,199 complicated family, and a double murder. And I was first 58 00:02:56,479 --> 00:02:59,319 drawn to the case in twenty sixteen, like many people 59 00:02:59,319 --> 00:03:02,039 who are a nation wide and around the world, when 60 00:03:02,159 --> 00:03:04,800 Nathan Carmen, who was a young man at the time, 61 00:03:05,159 --> 00:03:07,680 took his mother Linda out on a deep sea fishing 62 00:03:07,719 --> 00:03:10,800 trip off the coast of Rhode Island. His fishing boat 63 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,479 goes down and he is allegedly a castaway in a 64 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,599 life raft for seven long days in the middle of 65 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,919 the North Atlantic before being rescued by a passing Chinese 66 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,479 cargo ship. And when the story first broke it almost 67 00:03:26,599 --> 00:03:29,199 a lot of people compared it to Tom Hanks in 68 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,280 the Castaway, meaning this miraculous rescue at sea, but it 69 00:03:33,319 --> 00:03:36,400 was also bittersweet because the young man's mother could not 70 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,800 be found. And then just a few short days later, 71 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:46,439 Coastguard investigators start peeling Nathan Carmen's story back a little bit, 72 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,639 and they ultimately don't believe that his mother just went 73 00:03:50,759 --> 00:03:54,919 down with his fishing boat one hundred and fifteen nautical 74 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,400 miles off of Martha's vineyard. They believed that he had 75 00:03:58,479 --> 00:04:01,639 killed it at sea. And then lo and behold, they 76 00:04:01,719 --> 00:04:05,400 also become aware that Nathan is also the prime suspect 77 00:04:05,759 --> 00:04:11,319 in his grandfather's rifle murder in twenty thirteen, all allegedly 78 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,080 to get his hands on a fifty million dollar family fortune. 79 00:04:15,599 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 2: You drop some breadcrumbs in the early going of Blood 80 00:04:19,199 --> 00:04:23,639 in the Water casey, where you talked about Carmen's physical 81 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,399 condition that was noted when he was picked up by 82 00:04:27,879 --> 00:04:31,439 the Chinese cargo ship. What is it about his condition 83 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:36,360 that makes people like the ship's doctor and captain suspicious? 84 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,600 What would his condition should have been like after seven 85 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,360 days in a life raft. 86 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 4: I would say, after twenty four hours in a life raft, 87 00:04:44,959 --> 00:04:48,560 he would have been incredibly weak. He would have been hypothermic, 88 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,040 he would have been dehydrated. He showed none of those 89 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,560 signs after allegedly being in a life raft for seven days. 90 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,160 And it really startled the ship's doctor on board or 91 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,800 the Orient Lucky, which is the cargo ship that rescued 92 00:05:02,879 --> 00:05:07,319 him at sea. Not only was he physically fit, but 93 00:05:07,439 --> 00:05:10,560 he actually had to swim from the life raft to 94 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,439 a life ring of very choppy waters in order to 95 00:05:13,519 --> 00:05:16,439 swim toward his salvation. Now, someone who'd been in a 96 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:21,079 life raft for that long would have had no physical 97 00:05:21,519 --> 00:05:23,199 capabilities to do such a thing. 98 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:25,519 Speaker 3: It is funny. One of the three lines that I've 99 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,879 noticed with your books is a connection to all things nautical. 100 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,519 But of course, when I picked up Blood in the 101 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,279 Water to read through it, I giggled a little bit 102 00:05:34,319 --> 00:05:36,480 at the fact that we're starting off at Casey Sherman 103 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,839 book and here we are, we're on the water. Now. 104 00:05:40,879 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 4: I grew up on nautical way, on Cape CODs. I've 105 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,560 always been very tied to the sea. In one of 106 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,839 the inspirations for this book. I've been connected with the 107 00:05:50,879 --> 00:05:53,000 US Coast Guard for several years. I wrote a book 108 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,319 called The Finest Hours, which became a big Disney movie 109 00:05:56,319 --> 00:06:00,480 in twenty sixteen. That story is about the greatest boat 110 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,920 rescue in American history. That is a very positive and 111 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:09,079 inspiring story. So when the Coast Guard launches a extended 112 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,639 day search and rescue mission for two people missing in 113 00:06:12,639 --> 00:06:16,720 the North Atlantic and they cover fifty eight thousand square 114 00:06:16,759 --> 00:06:20,680 miles and cannot find one trace of a boat going 115 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,800 down or people that might have been on life rafts, 116 00:06:24,079 --> 00:06:26,240 I leaned in on that a little bit and started 117 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,480 to dig through the story and see what I could find. 118 00:06:28,959 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 3: The winter first hit the airwaves did was that when 119 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,519 your antenna went up? Or did this not come to 120 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,639 your attention until very recently when you started writing the book. 121 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,759 Speaker 4: My antenna went right up, obviously when it happened, But 122 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,560 I was engaged with other book projects at the time, 123 00:06:43,639 --> 00:06:45,360 and I just put it in the back of my mind. 124 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,319 I look at my books as airplanes on a runway, 125 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,439 and I probably had about four planes on the runway 126 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,639 when this all broke, and I had to get through 127 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,519 those four book projects hoping that the Nathan Carmen case 128 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,680 would still be viable for me that another writer wouldn't 129 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,560 come in and try to attempt and do what I did. 130 00:07:04,079 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 2: So that idea of airplanes stacked up. You're a prolific writer. 131 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,279 You've done seventeen am I right. 132 00:07:11,639 --> 00:07:13,519 Speaker 4: I'm actually working on my twentieth right now. 133 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,519 Speaker 2: You've done twenty books so far. So they do sequence 134 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,319 out where much. If you're at the airport and watching 135 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:25,160 planes land and take off, you're seeing a line of 136 00:07:25,279 --> 00:07:27,759 projects out towards the horizon. 137 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,279 Speaker 4: Yeah. It makes my literary agent and my publisher very 138 00:07:31,279 --> 00:07:35,959 happy because I've always got something next. I've got two 139 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,560 kids in college. Dad's got to be as prolific as 140 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,639 I can. And I try to write and release a 141 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,720 book a year because I like to be engaged in 142 00:07:44,759 --> 00:07:48,439 the writing process. Guys, I tell writers, real writers write, 143 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,040 and writers need to write every day. When I'm my 144 00:07:52,199 --> 00:07:55,639 most surly is when I don't have a project. Just 145 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,199 ask my lovely wife, who I dedicated this book to. 146 00:07:58,759 --> 00:08:01,759 She's been amazing, and I certainly my shoulder to lean 147 00:08:01,839 --> 00:08:05,839 on in many instances when I'm researching stories like this. 148 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: I should dish that scandal for a second. I noticed 149 00:08:09,959 --> 00:08:14,800 Casey's dedication to his wife. He put this loving dedication 150 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,160 to Kristen spelled the same way as Mss Dilly, and 151 00:08:19,199 --> 00:08:21,439 I thought to myself, is there more going on here 152 00:08:21,439 --> 00:08:25,279 than I need to know about it? So your wife 153 00:08:25,319 --> 00:08:27,079 is Kristin also with an eye? 154 00:08:27,199 --> 00:08:29,319 Speaker 4: That's right. Yes, my wife is Kristen with an eye, 155 00:08:29,319 --> 00:08:33,480 and it's a little unusual here in the New England area. 156 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,480 So anytime I meet a Kristen who spells it the 157 00:08:36,639 --> 00:08:40,080 right way, my wife always says, it's always a great 158 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:41,000 conversation to have. 159 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 3: Has she ever told you why she was named Kristin? 160 00:08:44,039 --> 00:08:46,480 Because my parents had a very specific reason for naming 161 00:08:46,519 --> 00:08:48,679 me what they did, I'm curious if our reasons are 162 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:49,080 the same. 163 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 4: I'm not sure. I'd have to ask your permission to 164 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,759 share any of those stories, but maybe for another podcast. 165 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,039 Speaker 3: My parents decided to name me Kristen because Kristen was 166 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,240 the woman who shot you Are You in? On Dallas? 167 00:09:01,919 --> 00:09:02,639 Speaker 4: Was obsessive. 168 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 3: My mom was obsessed with that show when she was 169 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:11,240 great with me. So that's where my name loved rhyme. Yeah, 170 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,000 with a legacy like that, how could I. 171 00:09:13,039 --> 00:09:19,279 Speaker 2: Not speaking of important historical figures. Really, it's funny. 172 00:09:19,279 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 3: I've never watched Dallas in my life, but. 173 00:09:21,399 --> 00:09:24,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean Dallas honestly. To segue back to this book, 174 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,879 very similar you had a very wealthy family in Texas. 175 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,960 You've got a very wealthy family here in New England 176 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,159 with a patriarch of the family that had amassed and 177 00:09:35,279 --> 00:09:39,159 built a company worth forty seven million dollars by the 178 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,000 time he was murdered. And part of the story goes into, 179 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,799 as I said, some really dynamic and very complex relationships 180 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,960 within the family and people that were interested or motivated 181 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,720 possibly to gain access to the family fortune. 182 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: You're an extraordinarily thorough in very detailed researcher. Does your 183 00:10:02,399 --> 00:10:06,200 research process vary from book to book or does it 184 00:10:06,519 --> 00:10:09,240 start in relatively the same place and end in the 185 00:10:09,279 --> 00:10:09,840 same place. 186 00:10:09,879 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 4: Most times, research is really what I love to do. 187 00:10:13,639 --> 00:10:16,320 I call myself an archaeologist of words for a reason. 188 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,360 That's because I love to dig into a story, whether 189 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,559 that story happened thirty six hours ago or thirty six 190 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,519 years ago, and finding something that maybe somebody overlooked or 191 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,360 maybe somebody missed. And for this book, particularly Blood in 192 00:10:31,399 --> 00:10:34,240 the Water, I really had to gumshoo this case and 193 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:39,679 really stretched my investigative journalist skills as widely as I could, 194 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,600 interviewing up to forty witnesses in this case, all had 195 00:10:43,639 --> 00:10:48,559 different perspectives on Nathan Carmen, because when the finger of 196 00:10:48,639 --> 00:10:52,440 suspicion pointed to Nathan, especially in the media, it was 197 00:10:52,519 --> 00:10:56,320 basically a flat line between the allegations against Nathan and 198 00:10:56,399 --> 00:10:59,759 his guilt not only in the disappearance and alleged murder 199 00:10:59,759 --> 00:11:02,759 of his mother, but the murder of his grandfather. The 200 00:11:02,799 --> 00:11:05,600 story's much more complex than that, and I learned that 201 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,240 there were several other people motivated by wealth and ingreed 202 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,399 who may have had that motivation to kill the grandfather, 203 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:16,639 John Chocolus, and possibly had something to do maybe with 204 00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:20,519 the disappearance of Linda Carmen. Or I always call Nathan 205 00:11:20,519 --> 00:11:24,039 Carmen guys. He's either he's both a villain and victim 206 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,360 of his own story. Here was somebody that was on 207 00:11:27,399 --> 00:11:29,759 the autism spectrum. There was a word for it, they 208 00:11:29,799 --> 00:11:33,200 used to call it aspergers. And Nathan was highly functioning, 209 00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:36,759 but he had all the ticks and all the difficulty 210 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,000 connecting with human beings that people on the autism spectrum had. 211 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,639 So I think that there's a lot of that in 212 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,200 the book that breaks down some of the stereotypes about 213 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,480 a person of Nathan's background. And I think that Nathan 214 00:11:50,519 --> 00:11:53,080 did say early on in the investigation that he may 215 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,039 have been targeted at least in his grandfather's murder because 216 00:11:56,039 --> 00:11:59,120 of his disorder, because he called himself low hanging fruit, 217 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:04,399 meaning was an easy mark for skilled interrogators and investigators. 218 00:12:04,799 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 2: When you talk about your research project, Casey, just before 219 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,440 you started, you're in your home office on the cape 220 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,679 you gestured across the room. Now we're not in the 221 00:12:13,759 --> 00:12:17,759 room with you, but I imagine a big flat table 222 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,200 or desk spread out with files or how's it work? 223 00:12:22,039 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 4: That's exactly it. I'm actually my computer is set on 224 00:12:25,279 --> 00:12:27,879 my desk right now, and it's the I would say, 225 00:12:27,919 --> 00:12:31,519 the messiest desk you'd ever want to see. There are 226 00:12:31,879 --> 00:12:37,080 research and investigative materials piled and stacks books regarding my 227 00:12:37,279 --> 00:12:42,879 upcoming book that I use for research, newspaper articles, interviews. 228 00:12:43,399 --> 00:12:45,639 It's ugly, and my wife just comes in and shakes 229 00:12:45,639 --> 00:12:47,879 her head once she looks at it, and then leaves 230 00:12:47,879 --> 00:12:50,159 because she knows that even though it's messy, I know 231 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,320 where everything is and I will get to cleaning it 232 00:12:53,399 --> 00:12:56,720 once I write the end, at the finality of the book, 233 00:12:56,759 --> 00:13:01,039 and behind me, you've got a massive bookcase filled with periodicals, 234 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,039 filled with books because writers, I believe that writers should 235 00:13:05,039 --> 00:13:08,000 read as well. Not only just writing, but reading is 236 00:13:08,039 --> 00:13:10,559 really the masterclass. People ask me, I want to be 237 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,639 a best selling author, said, that's not your motivation. What 238 00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:16,200 you want to be is a really good storyteller and 239 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,679 a solid writer, and start that by reading books, not 240 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,759 necessarily in your genre. I don't have a lot of 241 00:13:22,799 --> 00:13:25,600 true crime books. Instead, I have a lot of different 242 00:13:25,639 --> 00:13:29,120 books from different genres. But the way that these authors 243 00:13:29,159 --> 00:13:32,440 tell their stories is fascinating to me. I can learn 244 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,519 a lot, and I learn every day on how authors 245 00:13:35,919 --> 00:13:39,720 pace the story, whether it's a fictional novel that takes 246 00:13:39,759 --> 00:13:43,440 place on Mars or whether it's a biography of Ernest Hemingway. 247 00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:47,519 Real good writers can capture the reader's attention in those 248 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,919 first few pages, and quite frankly, in these days, guys, 249 00:13:50,919 --> 00:13:54,159 they have to because there are so many other media 250 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,639 outlets that are competing for your attention, and years ago 251 00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:01,759 a few books would be public year, so readers would 252 00:14:01,919 --> 00:14:04,639 have to invest in a book. I've learned that I've 253 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,720 got to capture that reader's attention literally in the first page. 254 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,320 And I always try to start my books in a 255 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,360 sensational way that is very in line with what actually 256 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:16,320 happened in the story. 257 00:14:16,919 --> 00:14:19,399 Speaker 3: You would mention that this case had received a large 258 00:14:19,399 --> 00:14:22,080 amount of media attention, and of course your research desk 259 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,480 will attest to that. I'm sure when you are researching 260 00:14:26,519 --> 00:14:29,679 something that has received a lot of press coverage, how 261 00:14:29,679 --> 00:14:32,960 do you decide what you're going to use for inclusion 262 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,480 in your manuscripts and what ultimately is going to stay 263 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,279 on the cutting room floor? And are there media sources 264 00:14:39,279 --> 00:14:41,919 that are like your go tos for solid coverage? 265 00:14:42,559 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 4: No? Not, It depends on the story. Okay, so a 266 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,399 lot a story like this. It's entering the interesting that 267 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:53,279 the hyper local community newspapers were really there was some 268 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,120 real solid reporting in what they were doing, because some 269 00:14:56,159 --> 00:15:00,120 of the larger newspapers, at least early on in the story, 270 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,320 weren't paying much attention to it. Going back, not only 271 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:08,360 reading these articles, the articles are the springboard to actually 272 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,039 do digging and doing the real research. So the real 273 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,480 research comes in trying to gather up as many This 274 00:15:14,559 --> 00:15:17,559 story takes place on the ocean. Half of it does anyways. 275 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,799 Getting access to as many Coast Guard reports as I can, 276 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:22,440 so I want to be in the room when the 277 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,840 Coastguard is searching for a mother and a son for 278 00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:30,200 several days and deploying massive amounts of resources in an 279 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,039 attempt to find them. With this story was really, like 280 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,399 I said, gum shoeing the story, interviewing so many people, 281 00:15:38,919 --> 00:15:42,080 and that was really what I think lent the credibility 282 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:43,639 to this book, And I think why it's going to 283 00:15:43,639 --> 00:15:46,639 be successful is because I thought everybody would have the 284 00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:51,080 same response or perspective when it came to Nathan Carmon 285 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,000 where his grandfather John chocolates or Lynda Carmen. But I 286 00:15:54,039 --> 00:15:57,320 found were conflicting perspectives from a lot of different people. 287 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,159 And that's very true to anyone walking around today. Somebody 288 00:16:02,159 --> 00:16:04,519 can be your best friend, I can find somebody that 289 00:16:04,639 --> 00:16:07,480 probably hates you, and their perspectives have a ring of 290 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:10,919 truth to it. So by talking to and interviewing as 291 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,519 many folks as I could, I thought I was able 292 00:16:13,559 --> 00:16:18,240 to really write a balanced story about what may have 293 00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:19,480 happened in this case. 294 00:16:19,919 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: The finger of suspicion that you mentioned, Casey, as you 295 00:16:24,399 --> 00:16:27,919 outline the story in blood and the water. At what 296 00:16:28,039 --> 00:16:31,679 point do you feel like the questions start and the 297 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,639 maybe not accusations, but suspicions begin early on. 298 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 4: The suspicions around Nathan primarily in his grandfather's death. His grandfather, 299 00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:45,480 John chock was killed with three rifle blasts in his 300 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,879 bedroom in twenty thirteen. Nathan Carmen was the last person 301 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,679 to see his grandfather alive. Now, his grandfather, John Chockolis, 302 00:16:53,879 --> 00:16:59,039 was this alleged benevolent businessman, someone that poured millions of 303 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,440 dollars into the community, but he also had a dark side. 304 00:17:02,679 --> 00:17:05,039 He was eighty seven years old. He had a twenty 305 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,079 five year old mistress that he was showering with money 306 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,200 and illicit sex toye to perform to his own amusement. 307 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,000 So here was a dark guy who had a lot 308 00:17:16,039 --> 00:17:19,519 of people in his personal life, in his business background 309 00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:22,599 that may have had motivation to kill him, including a 310 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:27,359 bookkeeper who embezzled four hundred thousand dollars from the family 311 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,160 business that John Chocolus certainly did not know about at 312 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,000 the time. But I think that the police understood that. Okay, 313 00:17:34,079 --> 00:17:36,559 Nathan is the last person to see him that night. 314 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,559 I always looked at Okay, what was Nathan's motivation to 315 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,359 murder his eighty seven year old grandfather in a Greek 316 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:49,119 American family, John Chocolus doated on his firstborn grandson, who 317 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,240 was Nathan Carmen, and really saw past his autism spectrum 318 00:17:53,319 --> 00:17:56,559 disorder and was grooming Nathan to take over the family 319 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,799 business when John passed. So John had showered Nathan with 320 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,279 everything he ever wanted financially, the love, care and support 321 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,279 that Nathan needed. So really Nathan may have been the 322 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,440 last person who was motivated to murder the grandfather. Investigator 323 00:18:13,559 --> 00:18:16,759 zeroed in on Nathan because Nathan had purchased a rifle 324 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,240 shortly before his grandfather's murder. It was a sig sour 325 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,000 rifle that shot a similar bullet that had been used 326 00:18:25,079 --> 00:18:28,720 to murder John Chocolates, and that rifle has still not 327 00:18:28,839 --> 00:18:31,799 been recovered. Nathan was a little skittish in terms of 328 00:18:31,839 --> 00:18:35,240 what he told authorities had happened to that rifle, So 329 00:18:35,319 --> 00:18:39,960 the suspicion was warranted, I would say, in some respects. 330 00:18:40,279 --> 00:18:43,400 But when you're investigating a case like this, you don't 331 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,200 just focus on one suspect. You have to really cast 332 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,000 a wide net because that likely suspect that you have 333 00:18:50,079 --> 00:18:53,759 in your crosshairs might be completely innocent, and that person 334 00:18:53,839 --> 00:18:56,880 that is a person of interest, maybe you've talked to 335 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,720 them once, maybe you haven't, might be the actual killer. 336 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 3: One of the things that you put into context with 337 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,359 regard to suspicion with Nathan was something that I wouldn't 338 00:19:07,559 --> 00:19:09,839 not have thought to link these two cases together. But 339 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,599 you do mention the fact that there were a lot 340 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,920 of discussions after the Sandy Hook shooting about the link 341 00:19:18,039 --> 00:19:20,920 whether there was a link or not between autism spectrum 342 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,240 disorder and violence. Because the Sandy Hook shooter, who were 343 00:19:24,279 --> 00:19:26,759 not going to name because he doesn't deserve it, murdered 344 00:19:26,759 --> 00:19:30,359 his mother, he also was on the autism spectrum. Talk 345 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,039 to us a little bit about sort of those discussions 346 00:19:33,079 --> 00:19:35,559 that came up and how they might have affected Nathan. 347 00:19:36,319 --> 00:19:38,599 Speaker 4: Now, if you were call the murder of John Chocolas 348 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,559 happened in the state of Connecticut, in the town of Windsor, 349 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,960 which is a short drive from Newtown, Connecticut. So you 350 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,200 had so called talking heads and experts around the country 351 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,119 weighing in on the Nathan Carmen case and infusing all 352 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,960 of the information with regard to what happened in Newtown 353 00:19:55,279 --> 00:19:59,279 and pretty much not separating Nathan and the shooter who 354 00:19:59,279 --> 00:20:03,160 will not be named, but really conjoining them, if you will. 355 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,720 If one person has autism spectrum, they're violent, so the 356 00:20:06,759 --> 00:20:10,400 other person must be I have that same volatility. And 357 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,599 Nathan had really nothing in common with the shooter in 358 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,920 Newtown at all. But I think that the public certainly 359 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,079 perceived that there was a potential link to at least 360 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,960 the behavior that was alleged in both crimes. 361 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 3: I want to take that one step further, because Nathan 362 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,640 actually ended up acting is his own attorney in court. 363 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,920 Do you feel the autism spectrum diagnosis helped him or 364 00:20:34,079 --> 00:20:37,039 hindered him when it came to him representing himself? 365 00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 4: Oh a little both, actually, certainly, Nathan. What frustrated me 366 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,640 in this case is that when the FBI got its 367 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,680 hands on it, they really put a target on Nathan 368 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,480 Carmen's back. And when I interviewed the special agent in 369 00:20:50,559 --> 00:20:53,839 charge of Nathan's investigation, I asked her, I said, did 370 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:59,680 you ever consult an outside consultant and expert on autism spectrum? 371 00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:02,160 And she looked at me and she said, no, we 372 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,960 never did. We profiled Nathan with our own profilers. We 373 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,279 were going to get to that. I said you were 374 00:21:08,279 --> 00:21:11,000 going to get to that. You investigated this young man 375 00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:15,000 for four years, and now he's dead. It's a little 376 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,079 too late to get to that now. And I think 377 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,359 that Nathan's disorder certainly made him a prime suspect and 378 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,200 the murder of his grandfather and the alleged murder of 379 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:26,920 his mother. But then you get to look at Nathan, 380 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,799 and you get to look at separate the grandfather's murder 381 00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:31,599 a little bit. And because there are a lot of 382 00:21:31,599 --> 00:21:35,720 conflicting reports that put Nathan several miles away at the 383 00:21:35,759 --> 00:21:38,440 alleged time that John Chockolas was murdered in his bed. 384 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,680 Now you look at what happened to his mother on 385 00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:45,599 the high seas. Now, Nathan, because of his disorder, likes 386 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,400 to take things apart and put things back together. After 387 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,920 his grandfather's death, he earned some of his inheritance. He 388 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,480 spent about seventy thousand dollars on buying a historic farm 389 00:21:57,519 --> 00:22:00,960 home in Vermont, and the place was beauty, but what 390 00:22:01,039 --> 00:22:03,799 he wanted to do was tear it all apart and 391 00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:06,839 then flip it and to sell it for double it's worth. 392 00:22:07,079 --> 00:22:10,039 And he just could never complete the project. He could 393 00:22:10,039 --> 00:22:12,720 tear things apart, but he could never put them back 394 00:22:12,759 --> 00:22:13,559 together again. 395 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 396 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:24,240 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 397 00:22:24,279 --> 00:22:25,240 mindover Murder. 398 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 4: Kristen, to your point, he is representing himself in court 399 00:22:29,559 --> 00:22:32,160 in New Hampshire. He thinks he can do it. He 400 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,960 thinks that he is as good as any legal counsel 401 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,920 or successful defense attorney. The judge in that particular case 402 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,079 is telling him, no, Nathan, you need counsel. But Nathan 403 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,079 would study up and think he was an expert on it, 404 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,119 which gets us to the murder at sea. The disappearance 405 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,240 and alleged drawer drowning of Linda Carman was caused because 406 00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:57,400 Nathan had drilled holes in his fishing boat and obviously 407 00:22:57,519 --> 00:23:01,200 ultimately the fishing boat sack. Now, if Nathan wanted to 408 00:23:01,279 --> 00:23:04,880 kill his mother to gain access to her inheritance, he 409 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,000 would have taken that fishing boat out of the marina 410 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,960 into dry dock under the cover of night. He would 411 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,440 have drilled those holes. Instead. He is actually on the 412 00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:18,960 dock with probably about thirty witnesses watching him drill these holes. 413 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,559 And try to repair the holes. And he's got this 414 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,359 epoxy which looks like bubblegum wrapped all around his body 415 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,680 because he doesn't know what he's doing, but he thinks 416 00:23:27,759 --> 00:23:30,720 he does. Did Nathan cause the sinking of his boat 417 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,759 at sea? Absolutely? Was it criminally negligent? That is the 418 00:23:35,839 --> 00:23:37,880 question that's posed in a blood in the water. 419 00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: What purportedly was the reason that he was drilling holes 420 00:23:42,079 --> 00:23:44,680 in his boat which would not make it seaworthy? 421 00:23:45,759 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 4: In his mind, he wanted to make the boat go faster. Now, 422 00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:54,160 Nathan was a very inexperienced boater and fisherman. The area 423 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,440 he was alleged to have taken his mother is called 424 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,119 the Black Canyon, hush Bill being from New England, and 425 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,799 Block Canyon is basically the undersea Grand Canyon of the 426 00:24:04,799 --> 00:24:07,960 North Atlantic and the depths there are one hundred and 427 00:24:08,039 --> 00:24:11,000 forty fathoms in spots, so you don't go out there 428 00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:14,839 unless you have a forty five to fifty foot vessel, 429 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:18,359 you've got all of the modern equipment to call for 430 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,359 help when you need it, and you've got several fishermen 431 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,480 around you because it's going to be a long trek 432 00:24:24,519 --> 00:24:26,599 out there, and you're going to stay there for several days. 433 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,960 Now Nathan is out there with thirty one foot aluminum 434 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,440 fishing boat with his mother, who has no experience fishing. 435 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,000 She doesn't even eat fish. She packs peanut butter sandwich 436 00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:39,519 is when she goes out fishing with Nathan. But she 437 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,440 does so because she wants to connect with her son, 438 00:24:42,519 --> 00:24:45,880 because they had a very complicated and difficult relationship for 439 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,000 several years. So Nathan was completely out of his depth 440 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:50,759 by doing so. 441 00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 2: When I read that, I was so shocked because the 442 00:24:54,759 --> 00:24:59,160 North Atlantic, even one hundred plus miles off shore, this 443 00:24:59,319 --> 00:25:02,359 is not a place to be messed with. As you 444 00:25:02,519 --> 00:25:07,079 and other writers and filmmakers have covered, if things go bad, 445 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:08,440 you end up dead. 446 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, Bill, they call. When I was researching The 447 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,759 Finest Hours, I know that mariners called a general area 448 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,400 the graveyard of the North Atlantic for good reason. Four 449 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,480 thousand or five thousand ships have gone down over the 450 00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:27,200 generations in that general area. It's an incredibly unforgiven region 451 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,359 of the sea. And Nathan was, as I said, not 452 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,240 equipped both physically, mentally or certainly had the right equipment 453 00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:37,680 to go out there and do what he had claimed 454 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,400 he was doing, which was fishing for tuna. 455 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 3: What I really liked, and you said this in your 456 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,559 author's note at the very end of the book. I 457 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,640 like the fact that you present all of the evidence 458 00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:50,440 for the reader and then allow them, of course, to 459 00:25:50,559 --> 00:25:53,640 make their own decision as to whether they feel Nathan 460 00:25:53,799 --> 00:25:56,759 was responsible the death of his mother or not. And 461 00:25:56,799 --> 00:25:59,519 then same thing with the grandfather. Now that you have 462 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,319 seen all the evidence in the Checklist case and Linda 463 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:08,319 Carman's death, what conclusion have you reached about Nathan's guilt 464 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:09,119 or innocence? 465 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,839 Speaker 4: Christ Then it depends on the day you asked me 466 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,880 that question. I'll wake up one day and think that 467 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,240 Nathan Carmen was a criminal mastermind, that he committed these 468 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,599 two murders and hoped to get away with it and 469 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,000 did for several years. Then there are other days I 470 00:26:24,039 --> 00:26:26,640 wake up and I think there is no way he 471 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,319 could have possibly pulled off this double murder three years apart. 472 00:26:31,559 --> 00:26:35,000 Pulling off a murder itself is incredibly difficult. As an 473 00:26:35,039 --> 00:26:39,039 investigative journalist, I've covered about two hundred homicides, so I 474 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,079 know that how difficult it is. And nine times out 475 00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:44,920 of ten the killers are always caught. And here is 476 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,119 Nathan pulling off two dramatic murders, one at sea in 477 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,319 the North Atlantic and then another in the bedroom of 478 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,440 his grandfather's home. Murdering is his grandfather, as I said, 479 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,319 with three rifle blasts, one in the torso leading up 480 00:26:59,319 --> 00:27:02,200 to the head and then to the skull. One thing 481 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,960 that the Coastguard and the FBI was never able to 482 00:27:05,319 --> 00:27:09,279 explain to me when I was questioning them, I said, Okay, granted, 483 00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:12,640 your theory is that Nathan murdered Linda Carmen AT's sea. 484 00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:15,039 And Nathan is in a life raft. You don't think 485 00:27:15,079 --> 00:27:18,039 it's seven days because he's been drifting in the opposite 486 00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:20,559 direction of where he should have been at the time. 487 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,680 Then where was he? How did he get out one 488 00:27:23,759 --> 00:27:27,759 hundred and fifteen miles south of Martha's vineyard? And then 489 00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:31,440 how could he predict that a passing Chinese cargo ship 490 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,799 would be in the vicinity of his tiny life raft 491 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,359 and even notice him. I said, do you have an 492 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,400 answer for that? And they certainly didn't. He may have 493 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,839 pulled off the ultimate crime, but he took a huge 494 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,000 gamble on his getaway. If he was indeed guilty of 495 00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:49,759 killing his mother, Casey, do. 496 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 2: You feel like Nathan's life on the spectrum had something 497 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,240 to do with these. If he is a killer, and 498 00:27:58,319 --> 00:28:00,920 if he had killed both his grand father and his 499 00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:05,000 mother in separate incidents, is this a function of his 500 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,359 arrogance or his odd way of approaching the world. 501 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 4: Well, that's a great question. I would say that statistics 502 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,880 show that most people on the autism spectrum are actually nonviolent. 503 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,880 It wasn't necessarily in his nature. Although there are some 504 00:28:21,079 --> 00:28:24,519 family members who claimed that Nathan had held a young 505 00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:26,920 boy hostage with a knife when he was a child. 506 00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:30,480 I spoke to one of Nathan's classmates in high school 507 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,440 who said that Nathan was really non violent and was 508 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,559 bullied all the time between classes. It never swore on 509 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,480 if somebody. There was one time where a student said 510 00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:43,799 that a kid had stolen Nathan's cell phone, and Nathan 511 00:28:43,839 --> 00:28:47,000 didn't act out violently. Nathan just held the person in 512 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,240 place until the teacher got there so that he could 513 00:28:49,279 --> 00:28:52,599 get his phone back. So I'm not sure there's violence 514 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,920 in Nathan's nature. But also Nathan wasn' an enigma. There's 515 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:02,440 a lot of Nathan's behaviors in acts that contradict kindness, 516 00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:06,519 if you will. Because he had a very volatile relationship 517 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,119 with his mother. There were times where kindergarteners used to 518 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,680 or not kindergarteners trick of treats, would show up at 519 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,519 Nathan's home for trick or treat and Nathan would give 520 00:29:15,559 --> 00:29:19,279 them fish cuts in ziploc bags as a prank that 521 00:29:19,759 --> 00:29:24,200 triggered a visit from the local police. Nathan was certainly 522 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,440 somebody that had unpredictability in his behaviors. But was he 523 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,279 violent to a degree that he would murder the two 524 00:29:31,359 --> 00:29:33,640 people that he loved most in the world. 525 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,079 Speaker 3: I'm not sure that very intriguing sets of questions that 526 00:29:38,119 --> 00:29:40,680 are up for debate with this book. I am curious 527 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,720 Casey so as not only as an investigative reporter, but 528 00:29:44,759 --> 00:29:48,359 also as someone who has your own connections to a 529 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,799 famous murder case. And we should go ahead and remind 530 00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:53,440 our listeners that I will actually remind our listeners about 531 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,200 your connection to the Boston strangler case. 532 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,519 Speaker 4: So, my aunt, nineteen year old Mary Sullivan, was the 533 00:29:58,559 --> 00:30:02,960 youngest and final victim of that notorious nineteen sixties murder spree. 534 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,759 Her murder was also the most violent, if you will. 535 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,559 She'd been sexually assaulted with a broomstick, a Happy New 536 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,720 Year card was placed by her left foot, and I 537 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,599 began investigating that case as a journalism student at Boston 538 00:30:16,759 --> 00:30:21,119 University just to find closure for my family. The answers 539 00:30:21,119 --> 00:30:24,200 that I found over the course of well over twenty 540 00:30:24,279 --> 00:30:27,599 five years are much more terrifying than the idea of 541 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,799 a lone, sadistic killer. There were several men that committed 542 00:30:31,799 --> 00:30:35,519 the Boston Strangler murders under the guise of this Jack 543 00:30:35,559 --> 00:30:38,480 the rippertite character who may have been resurrected to stock 544 00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:39,839 the streets of Boston. 545 00:30:39,799 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 3: And anybody who wants to know more about that should 546 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,720 one hundred percent read Casey's book are Roos fir Mary, 547 00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:47,519 It's amazing. I wanted to set that up to ask 548 00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:50,680 you the question. You're an investigative reporter, but you also, 549 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,480 of course have your own connections to a famous murder 550 00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:56,799 case that I think would definitely be described as something 551 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,799 that has a bit of a media circus feel around it. 552 00:31:00,279 --> 00:31:02,680 What do you feel the media got right about their 553 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,599 portrayal of Nathan and everything that happened with this case, 554 00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:08,440 and where do you feel like the media went off 555 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:09,240 base a little bit? 556 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 4: I think the media never looked beyond Nathan Carmon as 557 00:31:13,519 --> 00:31:17,039 a suspect for his grandfather's murder, and I think once 558 00:31:17,119 --> 00:31:20,839 that was established, they immediately drew a connection to what 559 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,359 may have happened to Linda Carman. So I think that again, 560 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,440 when you're a day side reporter covering the daily news, 561 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,519 you may not have a lot of time to really 562 00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:34,119 research these cases because you're attending news conferences. You're just 563 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,960 getting your information piece meal. And the reporters that covered 564 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,960 this case, for the most part, they all did really 565 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,599 solid work. But it takes someone that can provide that 566 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,759 thirty thousand foot view and look at all the evidence 567 00:31:46,799 --> 00:31:50,559 that had been collected from twenty thirteen all the way 568 00:31:50,599 --> 00:31:53,400 to Nathan's death in twenty twenty three and lay it 569 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,839 out and then begin to put the puzzle pieces together. 570 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,359 And I think where people become comfortable and share their 571 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,519 stories with me, I think a lot of it has 572 00:32:02,559 --> 00:32:05,440 to do with the fact that I've had a terrible 573 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,200 tragedy in my own family, and I show them empathy. 574 00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:10,880 I don't just beat them over the head with questions. 575 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,880 I want to listen to them. I want to talk 576 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,119 to them. I want to learn about them and their 577 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,039 relationships with the people that I write about. 578 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,759 Speaker 3: So I've been so excited to watch on your social 579 00:32:19,839 --> 00:32:23,680 media the wonderful things that you've got in store, and 580 00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:27,039 one of them is a theatrical production that's in the 581 00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:29,799 works right now. Can you tell us about that amazing 582 00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:32,160 setting production that I only wish I was close enough 583 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:32,480 to go to. 584 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,839 Speaker 4: Sure, I cam very excited about this. It's called a 585 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,400 Nightmare with Casey Sherman, and we're going to be performing 586 00:32:40,759 --> 00:32:43,279 the show in a couple of weeks in Boston at 587 00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:46,640 Boston's most historic theater, Wilworth Theater. And basically what I'm 588 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,240 doing there, Kristin, is I'm taking three of my investigations 589 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,480 onto the stage for ninety minutes, and it's really a 590 00:32:54,559 --> 00:32:57,440 kind of a ninety minute white knuckle thrill ride for 591 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,759 the audience. We shouldn't be selling full seats, we should 592 00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:04,000 just be selling edge of seats seconds. Again, the audience 593 00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:05,440 is really going to be put on the edge of 594 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,920 their seats. And I do this. It's not just me 595 00:33:08,039 --> 00:33:12,000 on stage. I've got an ensemble of twenty incredible actors 596 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,039 who bring these real life characters to life on stage, 597 00:33:16,079 --> 00:33:19,920 including John Fiori, who was from the Sopranos fame. Great 598 00:33:20,119 --> 00:33:24,079 Boston area actor. He's actually playing two roles in the show, 599 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,880 and we're going to be really drilling into the Boston 600 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,880 Strangler case. We're going to be talking about a murder 601 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,559 in Hollywood, which is about a lot of Turner story 602 00:33:32,559 --> 00:33:35,000 that I wrote last year, and we're going to end 603 00:33:35,039 --> 00:33:39,119 the night with Helltown. Now, Helltown is the search for 604 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,799 a sadistic serial killer and Provincetown in nineteen sixty nine 605 00:33:44,119 --> 00:33:47,640 that a lot of people nationwide didn't know about until 606 00:33:47,759 --> 00:33:50,200 I wrote the book. And I'll give you, guys, just 607 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,599 one anecdote. We've been rehearsing in person for quite a 608 00:33:53,599 --> 00:33:56,880 while and the young actor Mike Siccola, who I cast 609 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:02,119 as Tony Costa, the serial killer in Helltown, terrifying, absolutely 610 00:34:02,279 --> 00:34:06,160 terrifying on stage. I think that the audience members are 611 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,519 going to be talking about and thinking about this show 612 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,400 long after we debuted at the Wilburg. 613 00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:17,119 Speaker 2: Now, are you playing the narrator or tell us what's 614 00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:18,280 your part in all this? 615 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, So I'm on stage for ninety minutes and I 616 00:34:21,039 --> 00:34:24,800 am the narrator. I'm bringing and introducing these characters on 617 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,519 stage to deliver their lines or create their acts. And 618 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,400 it's a lot of fun because people can really understand 619 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,320 a the journalistic efforts that I went through on the 620 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,760 Boston strangler case. People don't understand that I had Albert DeSalvo, 621 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,519 the self confessed Boston stranglers remains exhumed for DNA testing, 622 00:34:44,559 --> 00:34:47,679 along with my aunt Mary Sullivans. I've held Albert ta 623 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,840 Salvo's skull in my hands. That's how close I get 624 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,239 to some of these stories. And I want to share 625 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:55,559 that journey with the audience. 626 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,119 Speaker 3: When is this going to be premiering? 627 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 4: Premiering March twenty six at the Wilbur Theater in Boston. 628 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,199 And the Wilbur is Boston's oldest theater. It's actually where 629 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,000 Marlon Brando gave his first stage performance ever in his 630 00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:12,800 career and a streetcar named Desire. So there's a lot 631 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,800 of history on that stage which is incredible. And I 632 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,480 tell my actors, I said, just breathe in, breathe in 633 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,119 the history. It's a beautiful theater. Know that now you're 634 00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:22,679 a part of that history. Moving forward. 635 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been to that theater and it really is incredible. 636 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,480 What possessed you to go down this road? 637 00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:34,079 Speaker 4: Casey Possession is probably the best way to describe it, Bill, 638 00:35:34,559 --> 00:35:39,039 This is actually a theatrical production where all proceeds go 639 00:35:39,079 --> 00:35:42,119 to charity, So all of the ticket proceeds are going 640 00:35:42,159 --> 00:35:45,679 to the Peter Frady's Family Foundation. Pete Frady's was the 641 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,320 young man who created the ice Pucket Challenge in twenty fourteen, 642 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,239 and over the span of ten years, Pete and millions 643 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,599 of others around the world have raised one billion dollars 644 00:35:56,639 --> 00:35:59,719 for ALS research. So all the money is going to 645 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:04,119 go directly to his foundation, which supports and helps people 646 00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:07,599 in New England living with ALS along with their families 647 00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:08,719 and their caregivers. 648 00:36:09,079 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 3: That sounds amazing, and I'm just going to have to 649 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,840 request that you take that on the road at some 650 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,199 point or another because I cannot make. 651 00:36:16,039 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 4: It to Boston the fund and maybe I'll be able 652 00:36:21,079 --> 00:36:23,079 to send you a copy of it. I don't know 653 00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:25,360 if for the next time I'm going to jump on 654 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,679 the stage because I've got a book launch and all 655 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,440 so many other projects that I'm involved in right now, 656 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,880 but I'm very passionate about the theatrical and i just 657 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,920 want to get it right on the twenty sixth, then 658 00:36:36,199 --> 00:36:39,760 create a great night of entertainment in theater for the audience. 659 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 3: That's fantastic. Now, I know you're already hard at work 660 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,039 on your next book, and you've probably got three more 661 00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:47,360 lined up after that. But tell us a little bit 662 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,320 before we wrap up about The Devil and Frank Lloyd Wright. 663 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 4: Devil and Frank Lloyd Wright will as my next book. 664 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,840 I'm actually halfway through it right now. I didn't really 665 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,239 know much about Frank Lloyd Wright. I knew he was 666 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,519 an incredible, renowned architect, the most famous architect in the world, 667 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,760 but I learned that he was also involved in a 668 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,840 mass murder when he was a young architect working out 669 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,960 of Chicago in the early nineteen hundreds. And it's almost 670 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,920 similar to the Shining At how this murder unfolds, where 671 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,639 you have a caretaker working for Frank Lloyd Wright who 672 00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:24,360 takes an axe and then just goes on a murder 673 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,559 spree that kills Frank's beloved person in his life, her children, 674 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,440 and several architects. A story I'm going to tell surrounds 675 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,480 not only the murder, but this incredible relationship that Frank 676 00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:40,480 had with his soulmate and how what happened to her 677 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,679 affected and impacted his career. You look at the Guggenheim 678 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,679 in New York City, and I will make that correlation 679 00:37:47,199 --> 00:37:50,440 from what had happened in nineteen ten to what or 680 00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:54,880 nineteen fourteen, rather to what happens ultimately when Frank designs 681 00:37:55,119 --> 00:37:59,159 one of the great structures in our modern architectural history. 682 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 2: Even the way this story moved onto your radar is 683 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,280 an interesting story in and of itself. Do you mind 684 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,360 telling us how? Yeah, the Devil and Frank Lloyd write? 685 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,039 As an idea, the. 686 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 4: Stories originate in different forms. Helltown was a story that 687 00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:19,840 my brother convinced me to write. Frank Lloyd Wright The 688 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,280 Devil and Frank Lloyd Wright was a story that I learned. 689 00:38:22,639 --> 00:38:26,920 I was in Los Angeles meeting with Leonardo DiCaprio's company 690 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,079 about Blood and the Water, and they're going to be 691 00:38:29,199 --> 00:38:32,519 developing the book for a feature film, and I asked them, 692 00:38:32,639 --> 00:38:34,480 what are you guys working on? And they said, we 693 00:38:34,519 --> 00:38:37,760 have this Frank Lloyd Wright story that's really interesting. We 694 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:42,519 don't necessarily have somebody like you, meaning me, the writer, researcher, 695 00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:46,280 investigative reporter, to really dig their nails in ask over 696 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,079 the true story. So I was captivated with that one 697 00:38:50,119 --> 00:38:54,000 conversation I researched it like I do before I decide 698 00:38:54,039 --> 00:38:56,400 to write any project, and I dug right in. 699 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 2: But his production company, they weren't hitting you over the 700 00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:01,400 head with a pitch on this. 701 00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 4: This is a casual conversation. As I said, my books 702 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,079 come to me in all sorts of different unique ways. 703 00:39:08,159 --> 00:39:12,000 And I always tell myself when someone says comes to 704 00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:15,719 you and has an idea, you cannot dismiss them. You 705 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,000 always have to listen because that may be the next 706 00:39:20,079 --> 00:39:23,920 big book when your portfolio. So I'm always eager to 707 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,920 listen to folks who have ideas. Most of them are 708 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,320 good stories, but not necessarily have the weight that can 709 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,679 carry a three hundred page narrative like Blood in the 710 00:39:34,679 --> 00:39:38,079 Water or The Devil and Frank Lloyd Right, I should say, 711 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,559 but you have to listen. So that's keep my ears up. 712 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,639 I'm always looking for that next project. I think I 713 00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:48,880 have the next project beyond Frank Lloyd right, And I'm 714 00:39:49,079 --> 00:39:51,960 researching at least when my spare time. Right now, if 715 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,880 I have any spare time, a story about a serial 716 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,599 killer who was stalking women in London during the blitz 717 00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:03,440 World War two, which is a fascinating story. So as 718 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,079 the bombs are dropping. Hitler's bombs are dropping on London 719 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,079 and tearing that city apart. As a serial killer on 720 00:40:10,159 --> 00:40:15,360 the hunt, and how does Scotland Yard track down this killer? 721 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,760 While roads are being closed, people are being killed by bombs, 722 00:40:20,039 --> 00:40:22,800 there's a blackout in the city of London. I always 723 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,159 look at not only I don't want to glorify the 724 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,320 killers in these books. I want to really give thanks 725 00:40:29,559 --> 00:40:33,159 and elevate and give agency to the investigators who, with 726 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:38,280 their due diligence and determination, can find justice for the victims. 727 00:40:38,639 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 2: It's funny even just listening to this short description, I'm thinking, 728 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:43,960 I want to read this book. I want to see 729 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,679 this movie me too. 730 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,559 Speaker 4: Every book I write has I want to have different 731 00:40:51,639 --> 00:40:55,320 life forms. So as you guys know, I write very cinematically. 732 00:40:55,639 --> 00:40:58,280 I want to bring the reader into that moment, especially 733 00:40:58,559 --> 00:41:00,719 the first page of Blood in the Water, where you're 734 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,559 in the North Atlantic with Nathan Carmen, or you're on 735 00:41:03,639 --> 00:41:07,559 board the Chinese cargo ship watching this blue orange ball 736 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,719 in the distance, not knowing what it is until you 737 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,320 realize that it's a person waving a flag of distress, 738 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,000 and then you go to do everything you can to 739 00:41:17,039 --> 00:41:19,920 save that person. Not knowing that person may be a killer. 740 00:41:20,679 --> 00:41:24,079 Speaker 3: Well, Casey, where can everybody find your book? When's your 741 00:41:24,119 --> 00:41:25,159 actual release date? 742 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 4: So the book is Blood in the Water will be 743 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,400 released on April eighth, nationwide worldwide. You can pick it 744 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,320 up at your local bookseller, your Barnes and Noble online, 745 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,760 at all the major retailers. I will be traveling on 746 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,880 a very exhaustive book tour beginning in April, and I'll 747 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,559 be in obviously the New England area where this story 748 00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:50,239 in falls, but I will be in New York, Los Angeles, Houston, Texas, 749 00:41:50,559 --> 00:41:54,039 anywhere that people are interested and fascinated by true crime. 750 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,599 And then I hope to see you both in Denver 751 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,119 in September at Crime con Sure. 752 00:41:59,159 --> 00:42:02,679 Speaker 3: Well, the book is Blood in the Water, the untold 753 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,440 story of a family tragedy. Casey, thank you so much 754 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,280 for joining us. It's a pleasure as always. 755 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,519 Speaker 4: Kristin and Bill, thank you for the time. It's been 756 00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:10,320 a great conversation. 757 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 3: That's going to do it for this episode of Mind 758 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,760 Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see 759 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:16,360 you next time. 760 00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:29,639 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 761 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:31,159 Another Dog Productions. 762 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,039 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 763 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 764 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,519 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 765 00:42:41,039 --> 00:42:45,039 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 766 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 767 00:42:49,079 --> 00:42:51,679 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 768 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,639 Murders on Facebook. 769 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 770 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,039 Bill Thomas. Five six. 771 00:42:58,519 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.