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I'm Alex Wagner on today's show, 31 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:49.239 MS Now is Chris Hayes dot By to talk about 32 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:52.920 recent progressive wins, how Democrats find their path to victory 33 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:55.959 in twenty twenty six and beyond, and who is winning 34 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:59.439 the war for American attention. Chris and I dug into 35 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:02.959 candidates strategies as the midterms draw ever closer, as well 36 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:05.359 as how the Democratic Party can rally around its new 37 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:07.239 Senate candidate in Michigan. 38 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:08.039 Abdul al Saied. 39 00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:11.120 We also talk twenty twenty eight and how these midterms 40 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:15.439 this November might influence the party in the wild ride ahead. 41 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:17.680 It was a great conversation and we're going to get 42 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:20.120 to it in just a minute, But first a little housekeeping. 43 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:23.400 If you have not gotten tickets for Crooked Con. Yet, 44 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:24.159 what are you doing? 45 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:27.280 Here's another reason why you should at Crooked We believe 46 00:02:27.319 --> 00:02:31.080 the answer to right wing authoritarianism is a big, welcoming, 47 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:34.879 fun pro democracy movement, So we have invited some of 48 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:38.800 the biggest funniest voices online to all day Crooked Con. 49 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:40.840 At Crooked Con, you will have the chance to meet 50 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:43.719 creators and new media personalities who make sense of the 51 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:47.120 news with humor and hot takes. They'll be popping around 52 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:50.360 the Washington Convention Center hosting happy hours, q and as 53 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.159 and workshops for attendees. They will also, be, of course, 54 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:57.599 making content, because what happens at Crooked Con ends up 55 00:02:57.639 --> 00:03:00.319 online for every political nerd to see. Check out which 56 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:03.120 creators are joining us so far at Crookedcon dot com 57 00:03:03.159 --> 00:03:05.719 and grab your tickets today post haste. 58 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:06.759 See you in d C. 59 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:10.520 Here's my conversation with ms now is Chris Hayes joining 60 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:12.639 me now in a tank top. For those of you 61 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:15.400 who are not watching on YouTube, you should be, Please 62 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:17.879 hit subscribe while you're at it. 63 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:20.919 Is the one. Oh look at those gun season What 64 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:24.479 does it say? Suns out, guns out, guns suns out, 65 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:24.960 guns out. 66 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:28.400 Is the great Chris Hayes, buddy, It's always great to 67 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:30.000 see you, especially in the summer. 68 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:33.159 It's it's it's pure August right now, so I'm. 69 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:35.560 Not it's giving real Friday. 70 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:37.879 It's also on Friday in August, sure. 71 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:40.080 Are so you know if you if you didn't think 72 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:42.080 he was wearing a hot pink tank top and a 73 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:47.080 gold chain drinking Celsius like there's no Sunday. Okay, I 74 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:48.840 was hoping it was Celsius. That would have just been 75 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:50.599 a little bit more on pros tonight. 76 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:51.879 And that's that's a hard rule. 77 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:54.439 Got It's a hard rule. 78 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:56.319 One has had to enforce. 79 00:03:56.479 --> 00:03:57.599 Learn the hard way. 80 00:03:57.840 --> 00:03:58.080 Yeah. 81 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:01.919 I was really excited when when we had a big 82 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:04.520 primary on Tuesday and we thought, who can help us 83 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:09.639 unpack what the fuck happens now? Who is wise but 84 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:12.680 also just ballsy enough to say what they really think? 85 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:17.800 And Chris Hayes, you're up on you won. Let's start 86 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:19.240 with kind of where we sit, as you say, on 87 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:23.959 Friday after the Michigan primary ahead of the Wisconsin primary, 88 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:26.920 our progressives having a moment yes or no? 89 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:29.720 Yeah, I mean I think it's a huge you know, 90 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:32.959 one of the weird things that happened in elections is 91 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:36.319 we interpret the results against the benchmark of polls as 92 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:41.120 opposed to the benchmark of like fundamentals. So, like, you know, 93 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:45.560 I remember twenty twenty people, that was a disappointing election 94 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:49.480 night for Democrats in twenty twenty because. 95 00:04:49.480 --> 00:04:51.560 It was all much closer than the polls had predicted. 96 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:54.560 Yeah, Sarah Gideon was going to beat Susan Collins and 97 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:55.800 she lost by twelve points. 98 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:57.920 And you know, there's a bunch of races like that. 99 00:04:58.000 --> 00:04:59.879 So but you got to take a step back and say, 100 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:04.279 what happy here was that the polling was wrong, right, 101 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:06.680 the polling was a miss. So just look at the results. 102 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:08.879 And the fact of the matter is you had a 103 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:15.439 unabashed progressive candidate who has run statewide and primaries before 104 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:18.279 and lost by twenty points. He ran against Gresham Whitner, 105 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:23.199 win a narrow victory over a candidate who I think 106 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:25.839 is not a great candidate, as like politicians go, not 107 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:29.680 a great but did have the backing of the state 108 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:32.560 party essentially behind her, both the incumbent Center Gary Peters 109 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:36.839 and the incumbent govern Whitmer. You had sixty million dollars 110 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:41.879 in outside spending on her side against Abdul Sayed and 111 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:46.319 he emerged victorious in a swing state in which, look, 112 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:50.040 there's a theory of the case here why a progressive 113 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:53.560 outspook and progressive candidate can win a statewide swing state race. 114 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:55.120 They have a theory of the case, and I think 115 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:59.360 it's actually a relatively persuasive one. But it's also like 116 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.879 there's real to be worried about it, and just like 117 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:08.079 there is, I mean, there just is, like and despite 118 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:11.800 all that, he did emerge victorious, and I just think 119 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:14.839 there's no universe in which he would have emerged victorious 120 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:17.959 two four six years ago. Like something is obviously happening 121 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:22.800 among and let's be clear here the democratic primary electorate, 122 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:25.920 which is a different electorate than the general electorate, right, 123 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:29.560 and a different electorate than the presidential general electorate. We're 124 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:33.040 talking about concentric circles. But yes, it was a huge 125 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:34.439 win for progressives for sure. 126 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:37.439 At the risk of sounding like I'm glazing for some 127 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:40.160 of you use that term, Abdul also I had I 128 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:42.480 do think there's really something to be said, like the 129 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:47.759 redefinition of what electable means is changing, and the issues 130 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:48.560 that he's talking about. 131 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:51.240 It's the first time I've seen a glimmer. 132 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:55.160 Of an authentic answer to what it means to be 133 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:57.920 a populist and to be on the left and take 134 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:04.680 rightfully the mantle of economic populism and like really appeal 135 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:08.519 to working class voters in an authentically progressive way. That's 136 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:13.040 like really steals it from Maga convincingly. Like I felt 137 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:16.680 like he was very like, you know, abdul I, say, 138 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:18.639 we'll talk about Israel on the second, but just on 139 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:22.600 the economic issues, on healthcare, on jobs, Like he was 140 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:25.279 relentless on beating this drum in a way that felt 141 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:28.800 utterly authentic and very much in line with what democrats 142 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:31.319 maybe should have been talking about for decades, for years now, 143 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:32.439 if not a decade. 144 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:34.959 Yeah, And I think that points to what the theory 145 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:37.560 of the case for the progressive left is about how 146 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:41.920 to win cross pressured swing state elections, right, is that 147 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:45.079 people are pissed off of the status quo. They don't 148 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:48.199 like foreign wars and money going abroad. Again, these are 149 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:51.040 like the cross pressured voters you can win. They're pissed 150 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:53.279 off with the economic status quo. Things are too expensive, 151 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:56.800 and they are enraged at the billionaires and the corporations 152 00:07:56.839 --> 00:07:58.600 and the tech lords that want to put data centers 153 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:01.480 in their backyards. And this is a cluster of issues 154 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:04.839 that are both squarely in the kind of progressive populist 155 00:08:04.839 --> 00:08:09.079 wheelhouse and also can win people who aren't just down 156 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:11.639 the line progressives, right, And if you focus that, that's 157 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:14.639 the theory here and they I mean again, it's going 158 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:15.519 to get tested. 159 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:18.560 Oh, it's sure, it sure is both both and not 160 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:20.560 just in Michigan. I mean I think also it's this 161 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:23.279 is we're talking. These are precursors to national debates that 162 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:24.800 we're going to be having for the next two years, 163 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:25.360 and what. 164 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:27.240 Happens here is going to have a huge impact on 165 00:08:27.319 --> 00:08:31.399 those national bates, particularly the presidential primary, about who and 166 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:32.399 what is electable. 167 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:35.720 So when you hear when we talk about Abdulph sai 168 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:38.000 ed and to some degree where we talk about like 169 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:43.600 Zora Mum Donnie, how do you square that with Abigail 170 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:47.240 Spanberger and Mikey Cheryl and Corey Bush being beaten in 171 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:50.840 Missouri by Wesley Bell, who was backed by Apak in 172 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.480 the state and Marie Glusing camp Perez, who handily wins 173 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.279 her primary and is one of the most centrist moderate 174 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:00.759 Democrats in the House. Like, how do you just kind 175 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:03.519 of say, I mean all politics is local, And if 176 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:06.039 that's the case, then what does that portend for the 177 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:08.360 national reckoning that's a foot come next year. 178 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:09.960 Yeah, I think one is. Yes. 179 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:12.360 I mean it's sort of a boring and deflating thing 180 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:14.080 to say all politics is local, but that is a 181 00:09:14.120 --> 00:09:16.480 big part of it. Like we're talking about very different 182 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:19.480 constituencies in very different places, with different electorates and different 183 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:20.360 issue profiles. 184 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:22.600 That's one. Two. 185 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:24.679 None of this stuff is linear, right, So it's like 186 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:26.840 in the it's like the stock market goes up, but 187 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:27.320 it goes down. 188 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:28.440 It goes up, and it goes down. 189 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:30.679 Over a thirty year period, it's gone up, right, So 190 00:09:30.759 --> 00:09:33.720 it's like, if you sort of take a step back, 191 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:37.799 it's like, is the progressive left growing in strength inside 192 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:43.879 the Democratic Party in the aggregate over the last ten years? Yes, 193 00:09:44.440 --> 00:09:48.039 like pretty clearly yes, right, Like since twenty sixteen. I 194 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:50.759 think the answer is since the Bernie primary, you know, defeat. 195 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:53.159 I think the answer is very clearly yes. Now in 196 00:09:53.159 --> 00:09:57.360 individual cases, that doesn't mean like they're winning everything, and no. 197 00:09:57.200 --> 00:09:58.559 There's there's a lot of variation. 198 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:02.039 The last thing I would say here about Abdul said 199 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:05.639 and Mom Donnie and this was true of Platner two 200 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:06.440 before he dropped out. 201 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:09.840 So think about what are the. 202 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:13.279 Gates that you go to go through to become a 203 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:17.200 candidate through the traditional what people call it establishment, let's 204 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:23.600 say traditional channels. Right, It's like constituency relationships, relationships with 205 00:10:23.720 --> 00:10:28.360 mentors and other elected officials, endorsements from local groups, right, 206 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:32.240 being good at navigating the politics of the coalition. Right, 207 00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:33.399 these are all things that you have. 208 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:33.919 To be good at. 209 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:40.080 Being a really, really great communicator is nice to have, 210 00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:45.240 but not necessary to ascend up the ranks in the 211 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:51.639 traditional politics. So like Troy Jackson, yes exactly, who got 212 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:54.480 pretty high in main politics. Or even Abigail Spaenberger is 213 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:56.279 a perfectly good communicator, but she's not. 214 00:10:56.279 --> 00:10:58.279 Like electric electric. 215 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:02.279 Right, If you were not going that route and you 216 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:06.120 are going to have success, you have to be a 217 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:10.480 really dazzling communicator. So you've got a different set of 218 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:13.600 features that are being selected for. So the reason that 219 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:16.080 you get Platiner lighting up Man on fire, and the 220 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:18.320 reason that Mom Donnie is able to win that primary 221 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:20.120 coming out of nowhere, and the reason I think Abdul 222 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:24.080 said ends up winning a very hard fought split vote 223 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:30.679 win is that they're just extremely gifted communicators. Now that's 224 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:33.159 not all that matters in politics, because another thing that 225 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:35.960 happens through the gate checking, that happens through the normal 226 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:36.559 assent in. 227 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:40.440 Politics is some vetting, is some like is this person 228 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:42.600 got some stuff in their past, it's gonna blow up? 229 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:47.960 And we saw like a rocket ascendency via tremendous charisma 230 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:51.679 and political talent in grand Platner completely blowing up. 231 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:52.000 Right. 232 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:56.159 So, but I think that distills down a little bit 233 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.039 when you point to Mom Donnie and abdols I said, 234 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:03.840 it's it's both and right. The ideological ferment has to 235 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:05.159 be there, but you have. 236 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:06.919 To be really good to capture. 237 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:09.039 It because they well, okay, so where does that leave 238 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.919 you on we're saying this, you're going to be hearing 239 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:14.120 this episode on the eve of the Wisconsin primary where 240 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:18.519 Francesca hang Well, who is not a dazzling communicator, no, 241 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:21.159 and who Bernie Sanders, who's been kind of like a 242 00:12:21.159 --> 00:12:23.720 mini king maker in this primary series, is not on 243 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.559 Pods of America with my colleague John Favor did not 244 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:28.960 specifically endorse her. Do you have a theory of the 245 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:31.480 case on that is that because there's a sense that 246 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:33.720 she's going to lose, and she's actually one of the 247 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:36.679 future stars of the party of the left of the party. 248 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:39.559 There's a few things going on. One is the sort 249 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:42.440 of there has been a sort of comedy of errors 250 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:45.360 among the sort of establishment or the Democratic Party that 251 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:49.679 has led to this moment in terms of Mandela Barnes 252 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:52.519 drops out, Sarah Rodriguez, who is going to be who 253 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.200 was kind of the sort of consensus pick but had 254 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:59.480 an enormous kind of basically her finance director get a 255 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:00.799 whole bunch of stuff she shouldn't have. 256 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:04.600 It's unclear like the extent of it, but she drops out. 257 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:07.000 So one is just like one of these kind of 258 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:10.919 you know, a kind of car crash that happens that 259 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:15.320 you're sort of around for. The other thing is, yes, 260 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:20.200 there is a desire for there is the primary base, 261 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:23.600 the primary voting Democratic base is to the left of 262 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:27.799 both the median voter and the median Democratic politician. In 263 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:30.320 a lot of cases, Hang is taking advantage of that. 264 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:33.240 The other thing that's really important here is no one 265 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:35.720 in that primary has gone up with tv ads but 266 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:38.679 for the Republican super pac that spent five million dollars 267 00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:41.559 boosting home This is part of the thing that people 268 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:43.840 have not talked about, but is a big part of 269 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:44.519 the story there. 270 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:46.000 No one else is spending. 271 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:49.000 The state party in Wisconsin has a lot of money, 272 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.120 partly because of how good a job Ben Wickler has 273 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:54.200 done through the years. They won't spend until the general. 274 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:56.720 They're not spending the primary. The primary candidates have been spending. 275 00:13:56.759 --> 00:13:59.440 There has been five million about dollars of outside money 276 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:03.200 spent to boost Tong by Republican interests because they think 277 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:06.559 she's she's beatable. And the last thing I'll say here 278 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:11.759 what you see in Sanders not endorsing Hong and even 279 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:15.360 Hassan Piker wrapping her on the knuckles for her Thanksgiving 280 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:20.279 answer God, is that everyone actually understands that there's a 281 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.799 penalty for ideological extremism. 282 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:25.799 And that's good, but people kind of. 283 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:26.480 Pretend not to. 284 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.240 It's like we all get that there is kind of 285 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:33.519 a bell curve of political views, and you do you 286 00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:35.559 don't want to be too far from the center, and 287 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:38.320 everyone gets that, and everyone loves a winner. No one 288 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:41.159 wants to be associated with a loser. So this sort 289 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:46.480 of ascendant movement doesn't want to feel like Hong disproves 290 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:50.120 their theory if and when she loses, because I don't 291 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:52.039 think she's yes exactly. 292 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.559 That people who like fireworks, yes, bad on people who 293 00:14:54.679 --> 00:14:55.759 like The Fourth of July. 294 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.399 Positive America is brought to you by cook Unity. I 295 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:07.840 love COO Community. I've been a Community customer for years, 296 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:10.679 long before they ever sponsored this podcast. Just had a 297 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:13.799 bunch this week. 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Would benefit 338 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:11.279 you to talk to somebody. Check out Better Help, see 339 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:14.079 the reviews, see what stands out, and see if Betterhelp 340 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.599 is right for you. Visit betterhelp dot com slash PSA 341 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.640 that's better HGLP dot com slash PSA. 342 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:27.519 I bet I know where you sit on this. 343 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:31.599 But like Ram Emmanuel, who's probably running from president in 344 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:34.200 twenty twenty eight, is very worried about the DSAY the 345 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:37.799 Democratic Socialist of America and Rights in a Wall Street 346 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.079 Journal op ed this week. When the DSA attempts to 347 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:44.319 turn safe democratic states and districts a darker shade of blue, 348 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:48.799 Democratic candidates and swing districts are put at a distinct disadvantage. 349 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:50.759 Should twenty twenty eight ers just shut the fuck up 350 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:51.839 about the DSA. 351 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:52.079 For right now? 352 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:54.200 Like, what is the answer there? How would you like 353 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:55.960 to see them grapple with this dynamic. 354 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:57.960 Well, part of the thing I would say is that 355 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.599 I think there's a like there is there's a kernel 356 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:05.200 of truth to it, But also are you helping by 357 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:08.440 putting your attention on it? If the whole. 358 00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:11.640 Process, if you're wrong, you've alienated a crucial part of 359 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:13.119 the base that you're going to actually need to try 360 00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:13.640 and win over. 361 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:15.839 This is a real and this is a real paradox. 362 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:17.680 I think of what we might call like this term 363 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:22.039 that got start used as popularism, right, which is a 364 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:24.039 broad term that Democrats had to sort of move back 365 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:27.319 to center, align themselves with the with views that had 366 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:31.839 majority support. And there's a certain weak version of that 367 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:36.359 argument that's almost tautologically true, like yeah, when you run 368 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:39.960 for office, you want to be nearish the center of 369 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:42.640 the voters that you're appealing to. Now, the question of 370 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:44.640 like what is the center and what's the issue space 371 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:46.279 and what's salient and how you get it as a 372 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.279 whole complicated thing, and it's harder than it looks. But 373 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:51.119 one of the things that we saw happened with the 374 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:54.920 Labor Party in the UK, which tested this theory. They 375 00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:57.440 came into office and they're like we're going to engage 376 00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:00.240 in a bunch of high salience, high profile fire heights 377 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:03.519 with the left flank of our party, which meant we're 378 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:06.519 going to put immigration and trans issues in the paper 379 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:09.160 all the time. There are worst issues, we know that 380 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:11.359 from the polling, but we're going to pick a bunch 381 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.440 of high profile fights. So everyone's constantly talking about it 382 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:15.079 all the time. 383 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:19.599 And guess what. It didn't work now, because why would 384 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:21.759 you want to talk about the things Even if you're 385 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:24.960 trying to get to the center on it, you end 386 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:25.880 up raising the salient. 387 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:27.960 So it's like, don't workshop it. 388 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:29.680 In problem Rom thinks. 389 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.200 That Josh Turik is being hurt at the margin by 390 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:38.200 Daria Lisa Chevalier winning her primary in Washington Heights, which 391 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:43.759 is not a crazy idea. Why does talking about that 392 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:45.200 in the Wall Street Journal help it? 393 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:48.680 She already won, she won, Hey the Wall Street Journal. 394 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.759 At this point, how are you helping him by being like, boy, 395 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.160 these people are really a problem and they're going to 396 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:56.799 be a problem for the Josh Cheriks of the world. 397 00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:59.960 Just talk about something else. That's not helping Josh. 398 00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:02.640 Uric, right, and it's nor is it dissuading people in 399 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:05.799 the DSA from mounting like making their case right, because 400 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:06.200 the other. 401 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:08.920