1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind of a Murderer. 15 00:00:44,439 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're. 16 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,759 Speaker 3: Joined today by Lindsay Wade, author of In My DNA, 17 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,560 My Career Investigating Your Worst Nightmares. Lindsay, thank you for 18 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:55,320 being here today. 19 00:00:56,079 --> 00:00:57,759 Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me back. 20 00:00:58,719 --> 00:01:02,159 Speaker 3: Before we get into our discussion on the reason we 21 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,000 wanted you to speak with us today, which is the 22 00:01:04,079 --> 00:01:06,640 Codis Gap, we wanted to go ahead and extend our 23 00:01:06,719 --> 00:01:10,040 congratulations on the fact that your book has been nominated 24 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,599 as one of the best true crime books of the 25 00:01:12,799 --> 00:01:15,400 Year at the Crime con Clue Awards. 26 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 6: Thank you so much. I'm very excited about that. I 27 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:24,359 was very surprised to receive that nomination. Yes, I'm just 28 00:01:24,359 --> 00:01:25,920 happy to be in good company. 29 00:01:26,439 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: So how did you find out that in My Dna 30 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,079 was named one of the top true crime books of 31 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,519 the year. Now by the time we air this episode, 32 00:01:35,719 --> 00:01:39,519 they will have announced who won the grand prize. It 33 00:01:39,599 --> 00:01:41,760 is truly an honor to be nominated. So how did 34 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:42,719 you find out about it? 35 00:01:43,599 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 5: I got an email, and yes, got an email. 36 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,319 Speaker 6: From Crime con or I guess actually from the Clue 37 00:01:49,319 --> 00:01:52,319 Awards technically letting me know that my book was one 38 00:01:52,319 --> 00:01:56,519 of five finalists for the category Book of the Year. 39 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 40 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,879 Speaker 5: I was pretty blown away. 41 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,599 Speaker 6: And they want to be like frantically reading all the 42 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,840 other books in the group, because I want to read 43 00:02:04,879 --> 00:02:06,079 everybody's book before I get there. 44 00:02:06,079 --> 00:02:07,359 Speaker 5: Sorry, no, I'm dealing with it. 45 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 3: We're very excited. You know that you're in that amazing 46 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,240 group of people because it is a pretty heady category 47 00:02:15,479 --> 00:02:18,479 and lots of really wonderfully accomplished people and of course 48 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,960 my most important question at the moment is what are 49 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,680 you planning to wear to the Clue Awards? Because we've 50 00:02:23,719 --> 00:02:26,479 all been invited, So what are you planning to wear? 51 00:02:26,879 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 5: Funny you should ask, because I have no idea. 52 00:02:29,319 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 6: I probably have a couple of different things that I'm 53 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,120 going to bring, But I guess I'll just depend on 54 00:02:34,159 --> 00:02:37,759 how bloated I am or whatever that day as to what. 55 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,439 Speaker 2: This is such a women's discussion. Like Kristin asked me 56 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,199 earlier today what I was wearing to the Clue Awards. 57 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 3: And I did ask you, Yes, I did. 58 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: Quite frankly, being a guy, I hadn't thought about it 59 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:54,120 in the least. 60 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:57,879 Speaker 5: Yes, women have to do. 61 00:02:58,039 --> 00:03:00,719 Speaker 6: There's a lot more of a process into it for 62 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:01,360 the ladies. 63 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I'm also I probably. 64 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,599 Speaker 5: Will wear a dress of some kind nice. 65 00:03:06,759 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, bring a couple. I had a couple with me 66 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,400 last year and I finally decided on my favorite. But Bill, 67 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,520 I gotta tell you, you know that Paul Holes and 68 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,919 Matt Murphy have put a lot of thought into what 69 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,039 there were into the Clue Awards, So you're gonna have 70 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:20,479 to step up your game a little bit. 71 00:03:20,719 --> 00:03:23,599 Speaker 2: I'm not even attempting to compete at the level of 72 00:03:23,759 --> 00:03:26,240 Paul Holes or Matt Murphy, who are both of whom 73 00:03:26,319 --> 00:03:30,000 are big time true crime sex symbols. If we're still 74 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:32,039 allowed to use that expression. 75 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,199 Speaker 3: Lindsay, before we get started talking about the Codis gap, 76 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,479 very quickly, remind our listeners a little bit about your 77 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,240 background as an investigator. 78 00:03:41,039 --> 00:03:45,919 Speaker 6: Sure, so, my background is law enforcements. I'm a retired 79 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,159 detective out of Washington State. Spent twenty one years with 80 00:03:49,199 --> 00:03:52,159 the Tacoma Police Department. Fourteen of those years I spent 81 00:03:52,199 --> 00:03:57,319 as a detective, primarily worked sexual assault pieces, missing persons, 82 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:02,120 homicide cases, child and bease cases, and then when I retired, 83 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,439 I was the cold case detective when I retired from 84 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,599 my agency, and then I went to work for the 85 00:04:07,599 --> 00:04:10,240 Attorney General of our state for. 86 00:04:10,639 --> 00:04:13,879 Speaker 5: Just under five years, just under five years as an. 87 00:04:13,879 --> 00:04:17,879 Speaker 6: Investigator, working on a sexual assault kit initiative and then 88 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,480 worked on some other We have a unit within the 89 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:24,120 Attorney General's office which is called HITS, which is the 90 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,920 Homicide Investigation and Tracking System Unit, and that was actually 91 00:04:27,959 --> 00:04:31,079 started by Bob Keppel. For any true crime fans that name, 92 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,759 so Bob started that unit. Now I'm just in the 93 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,519 private sector, still keeping my finger on the pulse of 94 00:04:38,519 --> 00:04:40,759 what's going on in the world of crime. 95 00:04:41,439 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: So how did you get your start with the Tacoma 96 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,079 Police Department. Is this something when you were a kid 97 00:04:47,319 --> 00:04:49,959 you thought, I want to be an investigator, I want 98 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:50,759 to be a detective. 99 00:04:51,199 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 6: I actually knew when I was in high school that 100 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,319 I wanted to be a detective. And I actually was 101 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,639 inspired by reading and We're book The Stranger Beside Me 102 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,800 as I think I was a sophomore in high. 103 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,959 Speaker 5: School and I was hooked at that point, and I guess. 104 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 6: I was a true crime nerd before that was the 105 00:05:11,759 --> 00:05:14,639 thing when it was still really weird and awkward and 106 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,920 you didn't talk about that kind of stuff. I knew 107 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,160 from that point on. And I had a friend in 108 00:05:20,199 --> 00:05:22,439 school her dad was a police officer, so I was 109 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,959 exposed on the periphery, so to speak to a little 110 00:05:25,959 --> 00:05:29,519 bit of police work, police life. I had another friend, 111 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,839 family friend who was a police officer. Then I did 112 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,279 an internship with the police department when I was in 113 00:05:34,319 --> 00:05:38,680 college with a female sergeant. Yeah, like everything I did 114 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,279 along the way, it was like it just made me 115 00:05:40,319 --> 00:05:42,240 more and more certain that this was what I wanted 116 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,079 to do, and this was the job I wanted. And 117 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,240 then when I was in college, I was actually in 118 00:05:46,319 --> 00:05:50,879 my junior year of college and I got hired by 119 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:51,680 the police department. 120 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 5: I had taken the written. 121 00:05:52,959 --> 00:05:55,759 Speaker 6: Task and gone through the whole process of the physical 122 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:57,519 and the psychological. 123 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 5: And the medical and everything you have to do, and 124 00:05:59,079 --> 00:05:59,959 they offered me a job. 125 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,199 Speaker 6: And so I ended up putting school to go work 126 00:06:03,439 --> 00:06:05,600 for the police department at the ripe old age of 127 00:06:05,639 --> 00:06:10,399 twenty one, and went to the police academy, And luckily, 128 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,639 the police department actually did tuition reimbursement, so I was 129 00:06:13,639 --> 00:06:16,480 able to go back and finish my degree later on 130 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:17,800 after I was a detective. 131 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 3: Very cool. So you wrote a really fascinating article called 132 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:29,680 DNA's Delayed Justice, the fight to fill the gaps in Codis, 133 00:06:29,959 --> 00:06:33,040 which really resonated with the two of us in light 134 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:36,399 of our own interests both within the crime and justice 135 00:06:36,399 --> 00:06:40,399 space and of course the Colonial Parkway murders. What prompted 136 00:06:40,439 --> 00:06:44,240 you to sit down and write this particular article at 137 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:45,399 this particular time. 138 00:06:46,079 --> 00:06:49,399 Speaker 6: Wow, there was a recent cold case that was solved 139 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:54,079 as a result of getting DNA into Codis from a 140 00:06:54,199 --> 00:06:59,879 long forgotten, really bad guy who was executed in Washington 141 00:07:00,079 --> 00:07:02,680 date back in nineteen ninety four. As a result of 142 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,399 finally getting his DNA into COTIS, a cold case from 143 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,920 nineteen seventy five was resolved. This is a topic that 144 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,639 I've been very interested in and I would say slightly 145 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,759 obsessed with since about twenty eleven when I first stumbled 146 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,000 across this issue. Over the years have found example after 147 00:07:22,199 --> 00:07:27,560 example of really scary guys, really violent offenders, who for 148 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,240 one reason or another, slipped through the cracks and were 149 00:07:30,279 --> 00:07:33,439 not ever in the DNA database for the purpose of 150 00:07:33,439 --> 00:07:38,120 solving cases. Most recent example just it's like a culination 151 00:07:38,279 --> 00:07:41,120 of many years of all these different cases and then 152 00:07:41,319 --> 00:07:43,920 here's this latest example, and I thought it was definitely 153 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,480 worthy of getting the word out to law enforcement, specifically 154 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,319 to hopefully make people take notice and take a look 155 00:07:52,319 --> 00:07:55,279 at what's going on in their own jurisdictions. That this 156 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,959 particular case would not have been solved without changing legislation 157 00:08:00,319 --> 00:08:03,199 in Washington State, and so that was necessary to even 158 00:08:03,199 --> 00:08:05,040 get this person's DNA into CODIS. 159 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:06,839 Speaker 5: So that was one of the piece of it. 160 00:08:07,519 --> 00:08:10,439 Speaker 6: There were just so many factors and so much work 161 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,040 over many years to get the but I think it's 162 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,480 just a really great example of what can be done 163 00:08:15,519 --> 00:08:17,160 and hopefully a model that. 164 00:08:17,079 --> 00:08:20,279 Speaker 5: Other states could use to do the same kind of thing. 165 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,839 Speaker 2: Let's tell me about the case a little bit first, 166 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,319 before we get to the long and very worthwhile effort 167 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,720 that you and others put into actually changing the law 168 00:08:30,759 --> 00:08:33,879 in Washington State. So tell us a little bit more 169 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:37,320 about the case itself and how this ended up moving 170 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,440 on to your radar as an investigator. 171 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:42,919 Speaker 6: Really, I knew about the offender. I didn't know about 172 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,440 the victim. So it's like a backwards way of working 173 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,480 the case. That's really how it happened in this instance, 174 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,120 because I became aware of the offender in this case 175 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,200 many years ago, and he was like my poster. 176 00:08:55,039 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 5: Child for Hey, everybody, pay attention. 177 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 6: We need to make some changes in codis because this 178 00:08:59,519 --> 00:09:02,600 is a problem. So when I would go down to Olympia, 179 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,360 our state capital, and testify in front of various committees 180 00:09:06,639 --> 00:09:10,879 about changing our DNA law, I would always use him 181 00:09:10,919 --> 00:09:15,320 as my primal example of this really heinous offender that 182 00:09:15,399 --> 00:09:18,840 slipped through the cracks and is currently not in cotis. 183 00:09:19,399 --> 00:09:21,879 Speaker 5: Knowing about him, and this is what I learned about him. 184 00:09:22,039 --> 00:09:25,519 I was reviewing. Actually, I was working on a cold case, 185 00:09:25,519 --> 00:09:27,000 and I was reviewing a list. 186 00:09:26,879 --> 00:09:30,039 Speaker 6: Of convicted offenders that were not in Cotis and he 187 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,120 was one name on that list. And what really caught 188 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,879 my attention initially was that when I looked in the 189 00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:38,320 status column, this is like an Excel spreadsheet that I 190 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,279 was reviewing, and the status column that said executed, And 191 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,919 so I was like, that's interesting. And I could see 192 00:09:43,919 --> 00:09:47,519 that he had three convictions for aggravated first degree murder, 193 00:09:47,519 --> 00:09:49,519 which is the highest level of murder that you could 194 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,320 be convicted of in my state. 195 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:53,399 Speaker 5: And so I thought, this is interesting. 196 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 6: I really I want to dig into this guy and 197 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,919 find out what he actually did, because this is scary 198 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,960 that he's not in co And so I went down 199 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,279 the rabbit hole looking at his criminal history, googling, looking 200 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,279 at basically anything I could get my hands on to 201 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,600 try to get a handle on who this person was. 202 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 5: And what I came to learn was that he was 203 00:10:13,279 --> 00:10:14,200 a career criminal. 204 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,919 Speaker 6: He had committed a stranger sexual assault back in nineteen 205 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,320 seventy four, he had gone to prison, and even though 206 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,799 he was sentenced to thirty years in prison, he was 207 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:26,559 out in less than six years. 208 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 3: Wow. 209 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, we both were just like horrified when we read that, like, 210 00:10:31,279 --> 00:10:34,919 how in the world does a thirty year sentence turn 211 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,799 into six years and the guys out on work release. 212 00:10:38,639 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 6: Yeah, and unfortunately that was not uncommon during those times. 213 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 5: Back in the seventies and eighties, it was. 214 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 6: Not uncommon for people to get sentenced to really long 215 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:49,240 sentences and be. 216 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,759 Speaker 5: Out in five years or less. But that's a different matter. 217 00:10:53,879 --> 00:10:57,919 Speaker 6: Nevertheless, he was released, the victim wasn't notified that he 218 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,320 was released from prison, and he actually was being in 219 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,919 a halfway house very close to where she lived. And 220 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,519 so within less than a year of him being on 221 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:11,480 work release, he returned to her home and murdered her. 222 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 5: Her eight year old daughter, and her neighbor. 223 00:11:14,039 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 6: It was probably one of the most outrageous and shocking 224 00:11:17,799 --> 00:11:21,399 crimes that really ever occurred in Washington State. It really 225 00:11:21,879 --> 00:11:26,039 just horrified people. He was arrested very soon after. I 226 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,320 don't think it took a rocket scientist to figure out 227 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,639 who did it. He was ultimately convicted of the three 228 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,639 murders and he was put to death. He was actually 229 00:11:34,639 --> 00:11:37,080 the last person in Washington State to be hanged in 230 00:11:37,159 --> 00:11:42,759 nineteen ninety four. So learning all of that history, I thought, Okay, 231 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,519 this is a really dangerous predatory offender. 232 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 5: He's not in COTIS. 233 00:11:48,279 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 6: So I thought, Okay, I'm going to start I'm going 234 00:11:50,399 --> 00:11:52,080 to find a sample for this guy, and he needs 235 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,120 to be in the system. And part of my thought 236 00:11:54,159 --> 00:11:57,399 process when I would look at these cases was maybe 237 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,559 this will solve the cases. 238 00:11:59,200 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 5: That I'm working on. 239 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 6: Maybe person's DNA will help solve these other cases. So 240 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,919 that was always in my mind when I was looking 241 00:12:05,919 --> 00:12:09,480 at these kinds of offenders. And I knew that this 242 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,440 particular offender was not going to be responsible for the 243 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,399 two cases that I was investigating from eighty six because 244 00:12:15,639 --> 00:12:18,200 he was already in custody by that point, but I 245 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,120 still thought he could be responsible for other BOLD. 246 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 5: Cases, so he really needs to be in the database. 247 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 6: So I started doing some checking and was really excited 248 00:12:27,039 --> 00:12:29,720 to find out that there actually was either a blood 249 00:12:29,759 --> 00:12:32,720 card or a tissue block available at the Medical Examiner's 250 00:12:32,759 --> 00:12:35,519 office from his autopsy, and so I got all excited. 251 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 5: I called a. 252 00:12:36,519 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 6: Time lab just to be told that he didn't qualify 253 00:12:40,159 --> 00:12:41,080 to go into Cotis. 254 00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: Now let's just stop for a second. We're both like 255 00:12:44,399 --> 00:12:50,039 making the OMFG face here. How in the world does 256 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,399 someone this heinus who's already been convicted of rape and 257 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,960 now gets out of prison on work release, tracks down 258 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:02,320 the woman that he attacked before brutally kills her, her 259 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,159 eight year old daughter, and their neighbor who was also 260 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,200 a witness. How in the world is that guy's DNA 261 00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:12,440 not in the system in Washington State. 262 00:13:13,159 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 6: The reason he wasn't in the system already is because 263 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,639 he was convicted before there were even DNA laws. He 264 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,799 was convicted before anybody was using DNA and criminal investigations. 265 00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:25,639 Speaker 5: However, the real issue was that he. 266 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 6: Didn't qualify to go in in twenty eleven or whenever 267 00:13:29,519 --> 00:13:30,960 it was that I found his name. 268 00:13:31,399 --> 00:13:33,639 Speaker 5: He didn't qualify to go into the database for the 269 00:13:33,639 --> 00:13:34,360 same reasons. 270 00:13:34,639 --> 00:13:37,159 Speaker 6: He was convicted before the law went into effect, he 271 00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:41,159 died before it became retroactive for inmates, and so basically 272 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,240 he fell into this loophole or gap in the system. 273 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,519 Speaker 2: So yet another example of the CODIS gap. If you 274 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,679 don't mind spend a minute or two explaining for us, 275 00:13:53,759 --> 00:13:57,759 were civilians right and what the CODIS gap means? 276 00:13:58,759 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, And unfortunately there's not just one gap. 277 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,279 Speaker 6: There are lots of different reasons why offenders are missing 278 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,480 from the database. Some of those are legislative issues that 279 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:10,559 have to be corrected. 280 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,759 Speaker 5: Some of them are policy issues. 281 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 6: Some of them are just because they were just missed 282 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,759 and no one has gone back and taken a look 283 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,919 at who actually owes DNA and their jurisdiction and how 284 00:14:21,919 --> 00:14:25,039 do we get it collected. For a lot of states, 285 00:14:25,679 --> 00:14:28,759 the way that the law is written for DNA collection 286 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,360 is extremely convoluted. Sometimes I think it was written that 287 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,200 way on purpose so that there could be lots of 288 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,799 different ways to get that DNA into collected and into 289 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,200 the system. But when you do that and you don't 290 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,399 lay out a specific path that needs to be taken, 291 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:50,399 any specific person who's responsible, then what happens. Everybody points 292 00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:53,759 the finger at somebody else right now their responsibility, No, 293 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:55,799 your responsibility. 294 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 5: To do it. 295 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,639 Speaker 6: You will collect it when they get to prison. Oh no, 296 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,799 you'll get it at the jail. Oh I thought you 297 00:14:59,799 --> 00:15:01,840 were to collect it in the courtroom. And these are 298 00:15:01,879 --> 00:15:04,879 all places where people's DNA theoretically could be taken, and 299 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,240 oftentimes everyone assumes somebody else did it, and then it 300 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:09,000 doesn't get done. 301 00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:12,159 Speaker 3: Is there some reason why they can't take it in 302 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,440 all three places? Just to make sure that they've covered 303 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,679 their bases. I feel like there needs to be a 304 00:15:17,879 --> 00:15:20,600 flow chart here. But I'm also wondering, why don't we 305 00:15:20,639 --> 00:15:24,320 have multiple redundancies worked into the system just in case 306 00:15:24,759 --> 00:15:26,559 I forgot it at the courtroom. Don't worry. We've got 307 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,799 it at the jail cell and we've got it elsewhere too. 308 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 6: That's a good question, and I would say that the 309 00:15:32,519 --> 00:15:36,159 reason not that I agree with this, but the reason 310 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,320 that most jurisdictions wouldn't want to collect it multiple times 311 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,639 is because it's the drain on resources. Even the collection 312 00:15:42,799 --> 00:15:45,200 kits to collect the sample. You would think it's just 313 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,799 like a cute tip, and that's not actually what happens 314 00:15:47,799 --> 00:15:50,080 when you collect a convicted of fender sample. There's a 315 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,399 bit more that goes into it, to include taking fingerprints, 316 00:15:53,679 --> 00:15:57,200 documenting what the qualifying offense was. There's a little bit 317 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,519 more that goes into it, and there's a cost associated 318 00:15:59,519 --> 00:16:02,200 with those kits. I think that's part of the issue. 319 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,480 But bigger problem, in my opinion, is that we just 320 00:16:05,559 --> 00:16:08,399 have too many points along the way where someone can 321 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,799 be missed. As you said, there needs to be a 322 00:16:10,879 --> 00:16:13,000 flow chart, and unfortunately everybody in the. 323 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 5: Criminal justice system doesn't follow the same path. When they 324 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:17,279 are convicted, right. 325 00:16:17,639 --> 00:16:20,559 Speaker 6: Some people, when they are convicted for qualifying events, go 326 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,639 to jail. Some people go to prison, some people get 327 00:16:23,679 --> 00:16:27,360 home monitoring, some people get probation. So depending on what 328 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,360 their path is will oftentimes dictate when and if their 329 00:16:31,399 --> 00:16:32,360 sample is collected. 330 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,039 Speaker 2: One of the things that really shocked me in the article, 331 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,759 which and will include a copy of your link to 332 00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:42,120 your article in the show notes for this episode, was 333 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,159 the fact that in some jurisdictions there seems to be 334 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,600 a policy that offenders only give their DNA when they're 335 00:16:49,679 --> 00:16:53,399 being released from prison. So they've gone in, they've served 336 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,639 their sentence, they're being released back out into the community, 337 00:16:56,759 --> 00:17:01,799 hopefully not to reoffend. Yet that's the time their DNA 338 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,599 is often taken. And that seems completely backwards to us. 339 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, do you want to go track somebody down 340 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,480 after you've released him if you get a hit and 341 00:17:10,519 --> 00:17:12,759 now we'll find them again. No, And that is an 342 00:17:12,759 --> 00:17:16,240 old school mentality, and that's an old school policy to 343 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:20,680 collect DNA upon release. I hope that most correctional facilities 344 00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:23,160 are not doing that any longer, but that certainly was 345 00:17:23,279 --> 00:17:26,559 the standard and the norm back earlier on when DNA 346 00:17:26,799 --> 00:17:30,599 laws were first being implemented, and I don't really coming 347 00:17:30,599 --> 00:17:34,039 from a cold case investigator perspective, I don't understand what 348 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,720 kind of sense that makes. Just like you pointed out, 349 00:17:36,759 --> 00:17:39,319 I think their thought process was we'll get it before 350 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,559 they leave, and they're not hurting anybody while they're in here, 351 00:17:41,599 --> 00:17:42,599 so it doesn't really matter. 352 00:17:43,319 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 2: And I push back on this a lot as the 353 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:50,440 family of a murder victim. Right, it isn't just about 354 00:17:50,559 --> 00:17:54,880 he's about to re enter society, hopefully to be successful 355 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,319 and not be continuing his criminal ways. But for you, 356 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,759 as an invent investigator, to find out that he's already 357 00:18:02,799 --> 00:18:07,200 out back in the community, possibly reoffending, versus when you're 358 00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:11,400 working in an investigation actively and going through a cold case. 359 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,640 Wouldn't it make a heck of a lot more sense 360 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,680 if you said, I think my guy is Joe Smith, 361 00:18:16,839 --> 00:18:20,119 and Joe Smith is at such and such prison, and 362 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,880 I can go visit with him and reconfirm via DNA 363 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,400 that I've got the right guy, or maybe I should 364 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:27,720 be looking for another Joe Smith. 365 00:18:28,039 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 3: Correct. 366 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,279 Speaker 6: Yeah, A controlled environment is definitely the better solution there. 367 00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:35,640 Once someone is released, you don't know where they're going 368 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,079 to go or what's going to happen or what they're 369 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,480 going to do after their release. Collecting at the time 370 00:18:40,519 --> 00:18:42,920 of release is not a great solution, in opinion. 371 00:18:43,519 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 3: One of the things I was really interested in when 372 00:18:46,279 --> 00:18:49,680 I read your article is the fact that Ted Bundy's 373 00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:54,079 DNA isn't in cotis. That kind of blew my mind? 374 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,039 How did that happen? He is probably one of the 375 00:18:57,039 --> 00:19:00,400 most notorious serial killers of our times. Does he not 376 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,240 have his DNA and codis? That really just clowsed my mind? Yes, 377 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:05,279 so that. 378 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 6: Blew my mind as well, And that was another For 379 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,160 some reason, twenty eleven was the year for me to 380 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,799 learn about all these crazy things happening, and Ted Bundy 381 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:15,839 was at the top. 382 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 5: Of the list that year of shockers. 383 00:19:18,839 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 6: I think before that I just assumed that if you're 384 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,880 a serial pillar, your DNA is going to be in 385 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:30,680 the national database for the purpose of linking cases together. 386 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,480 But that's not necessarily the case. Really, it goes back 387 00:19:34,519 --> 00:19:37,400 to a lot of these guys that were operating in 388 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:43,680 the seventies, eighties, even the nineties. They probably were convicted 389 00:19:43,759 --> 00:19:46,599 before a DNA law was even on the books in 390 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,559 their jurisdiction, and depending on the state and depending on 391 00:19:50,599 --> 00:19:54,119 what their policies and procedures were and what their DNA 392 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,920 statute says. The prison officials may not have ever gone 393 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,359 back and collected from these guys if they were already 394 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:05,319 locked up when the prison started routinely collecting samples from inmates. 395 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,839 And this is this is very common to see offenders 396 00:20:09,079 --> 00:20:11,839 that went in before the DNA laws even went into effect. 397 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,079 Speaker 5: They just got forgotten about. Now. There are even some. 398 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,599 Speaker 6: States that actually are not allowed to go back and 399 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,839 collect DNA samples from individuals today who were locked up 400 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,160 before the DNA law went into effect, you know. And 401 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,359 so unless there's specific language in the statute about retroactivity, 402 00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:31,319 they don't qualify. 403 00:20:31,759 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 2: This is the sort of thing that makes me insane. 404 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,240 Oh yes, I know, and I've talked to law enforcement 405 00:20:38,319 --> 00:20:43,519 officials about this. This isn't just about convicting people. This 406 00:20:43,559 --> 00:20:47,640 is also about providing answers. And I know how victim 407 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,319 centric you are and how family focused you are. The 408 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,319 fact that there are offenders, including people that are rapists 409 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,400 and murderers and multiple offenders and serial killers whose DNA 410 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,039 is not in the KODA system, Kristen said. Ted Bundy 411 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:06,319 obviously is the super high profile example, but you actually 412 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,000 worked to get his DNA Bundy's DNA into the system 413 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,000 even though he was in Florida and you're all the 414 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,200 way in Washington State. How did that work? 415 00:21:17,519 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 5: Believe it or not. 416 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 6: Our oldest cold case on the books in Tacoma is 417 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,359 the nineteen sixty one abduction of Anne Marie Bird. She 418 00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:27,880 was an eight year old who went missing from her 419 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,480 home in the middle of the night in Tacoma. If 420 00:21:30,519 --> 00:21:33,079 her case is still unsolved today, she's never been found 421 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,559 ted Bundy came onto the scene as a suspect in 422 00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:40,759 her case after he was revealed to be who he was. 423 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:44,759 He was also born and raised in Tacoma. He also 424 00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:48,799 lived in the North End of Tacoma, and there were 425 00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:52,200 lots of wild rumors he was her paper boy, they 426 00:21:52,279 --> 00:21:52,759 knew each other. 427 00:21:52,799 --> 00:21:53,079 Speaker 5: I don't know. 428 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,559 Speaker 6: None of that stuff is true. But the fact of 429 00:21:55,599 --> 00:21:58,319 the matter is he was a high profile serial killer 430 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,200 living in Tacoma at the time this went missing. He 431 00:22:01,319 --> 00:22:04,039 of course was a suspect in her case. Now, he 432 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,119 was only fourteen at the time that she went missing, 433 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,759 and there's lots of debate about whether or not he 434 00:22:09,799 --> 00:22:12,920 actually could have done it. But aside from that, I thought, Okay, 435 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,799 we're going to be re examining this cold case. We're 436 00:22:15,839 --> 00:22:17,680 going to be sending things out to the crime lab 437 00:22:17,759 --> 00:22:22,720 for testing. Do we even have anything to compare too 438 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,000 if we get some DNA evidence from this crime scene, 439 00:22:27,079 --> 00:22:28,279 from these crime scene items that. 440 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 5: Were collected in nineteen sixty one. 441 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,599 Speaker 6: And so I started making calls again and quickly found 442 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,079 out No, Ted Bundy's DNA is not in CODIS in 443 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,480 Washington because he's not been convicted of any crimes in Washington. 444 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,640 Even though he confessed to eleven murders in Washington, he 445 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,079 was never convicted for any in Washington, so he doesn't 446 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,880 qualify for CODIS in Washington. But he was convicted in Florida, 447 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,519 and that's where he was ultimately executed. So I ended 448 00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:58,319 up contacting authorities in Florida. Contacted a medical examiner's office 449 00:22:58,319 --> 00:23:01,039 where he was had his autopsy for he was executed. 450 00:23:01,599 --> 00:23:05,480 They had tried to do DNA testing at one point, 451 00:23:05,599 --> 00:23:09,519 but it was the old style RFLP DNA testing, which 452 00:23:09,519 --> 00:23:11,920 does look back to COTIS. It's a different type of testing, 453 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,319 and they didn't have anything left to do current DNA 454 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:16,960 testing using STRs. 455 00:23:17,279 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 5: So then it was like Okay, who else can I call? 456 00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 6: So I ended up calling the Florida State COTIS administrator, so, 457 00:23:24,279 --> 00:23:27,720 like every state has basically a manager of their CODIS database. 458 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,839 So I call him and he tells me that he 459 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,400 gets called several times a year from detectives asking him 460 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,359 the same question from all over the country. Is Ted 461 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,559 Bundy's DNA and CODIS? His answer was no, it's not. 462 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,279 And so I'm like, Okay, this. 463 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,759 Speaker 5: Is the problem. So how do we fix this? How 464 00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:46,720 do we find a sample? 465 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,319 Speaker 6: So we put our heads together and came up with 466 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:56,279 basically some a strategy for locating a sample. I decided 467 00:23:56,279 --> 00:23:58,119 that I was going to reach out to Ann Rule 468 00:23:58,279 --> 00:24:01,759 here in Washington, because had of course had read her books, 469 00:24:01,759 --> 00:24:04,200 and I knew that she had written Bundy in prison 470 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,240 and he had written her, and I knew that she 471 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,200 kept the letters that he wrote her with stamp Oh wow. 472 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,039 Speaker 2: Interesting, thought, wow wow. 473 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,599 Speaker 6: And so I was like, I don't know, it probably 474 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,960 won't qualify for CODIS, but even if we could get 475 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:20,920 a profile to do a keyboard search or a one 476 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,119 to one comparison, we can be better than the things that. 477 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,960 So I met with Ann Role, got to have lunch 478 00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:29,240 with her, wow, which was really cool. 479 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 5: She signed my book The Stranger Beside Me. 480 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,039 Speaker 2: Which you go which is one of the reasons why 481 00:24:35,039 --> 00:24:37,160 you got into the field in the first place. 482 00:24:38,039 --> 00:24:41,799 Speaker 6: And then she handed me multiple letters and envelopes that 483 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,799 she had been keeping in her safe for all these years, 484 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,079 and so I took those back to the police department, 485 00:24:47,279 --> 00:24:49,319 and my intent was to send those. 486 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 5: Out to the crime lab. At the same time, the 487 00:24:52,559 --> 00:24:53,799 CODIS administrator in. 488 00:24:53,799 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 6: Florida had located these wax molds of Bundy's teeth. So 489 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,079 after he got arrested for the Kyomega murders, they took 490 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,640 wax molds of his teeth because he had those unusual 491 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,599 He had very unusual teeth, but there were bite marks 492 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,960 on at least one of the victims. They still had 493 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,000 the wax molds of his teeth at the crime lab. 494 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,839 Speaker 5: Apparently they have like a Bundy museum of sorts. At 495 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,519 the crime lab. They had these wax molds. 496 00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:23,799 Speaker 6: He attempted to swab those and potentially get a profile 497 00:25:23,839 --> 00:25:26,599 from the wax molds, but he didn't get enough of 498 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,920 a profile to develop for CODIS. But he was able 499 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,640 to somehow locate a vial of Bundy's blood that had 500 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,759 been collected in nineteen seventy eight at the time of 501 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:42,440 the rest in Pensacola, and it was in a safe 502 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,160 in a clerk's office at a room temperature. 503 00:25:45,519 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 2: I was going to say, this was sitting in a 504 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,160 refrigerator somewhere, right. 505 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:54,319 Speaker 6: Refrigerator, a room temperature safe in Florida since nineteen seventy eight. 506 00:25:54,839 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, let's me an ideal. 507 00:25:57,799 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, so that's not going to be good at black 508 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:00,640 is going to be. 509 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 2: Completely broken down. 510 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 6: So he wasn't hopeful that he was going to be 511 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,720 able to get anything from it. But miraculously, while the 512 00:26:08,759 --> 00:26:11,200 blood itself in the bile was not going to be 513 00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:15,640 worth anything, there was dried blood on the lid of 514 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,359 the vacuue tanner. He was able to flake off a 515 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,119 couple of little pieces of dried blood. 516 00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 5: Wow, there's enough there to get a full profile. 517 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,079 Speaker 2: It worked, surely, Cow. 518 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 6: Then the profile was entered into Florida's database and that's 519 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,599 where it was going to stay because he didn't qualify 520 00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:36,480 to go into the national database. 521 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: Wait a minute, yeah, this makes no sense. We're both 522 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,359 looking at each other like what Yeah. 523 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 5: That's what I said. So I'm like, this is good I'm. 524 00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 6: Glad that he's in Florida's database, but that doesn't go 525 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,759 if he's not in the national database. Let's say he 526 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,720 committed a homicide or sexual assault in Washington and we've 527 00:26:59,759 --> 00:27:02,440 got evidence on a case in Washington that doesn't meet 528 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,400 the criteria to make it up to the national database, 529 00:27:05,559 --> 00:27:10,200 will never get a match. And basically, after some legal 530 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,759 wrangling with the INDUS Custodian and US IS the national 531 00:27:13,799 --> 00:27:17,640 D and DA database, it was decided that the sample 532 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,279 would go into the national database in the legal index. 533 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 5: So he is not in the offender index. He's in 534 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:24,680 the legal index. 535 00:27:24,759 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 6: However, he's still the legal index still searches against the 536 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,720 crime scene or forensic index. 537 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 5: So that's basically what we need. 538 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 6: We need his profile to be searching against crime scene profiles. 539 00:27:35,839 --> 00:27:37,279 Speaker 5: And it is now as. 540 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 2: Of twenty twelve, you're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll 541 00:27:43,160 --> 00:28:01,440 be right back after this word from our sponsors, we're 542 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:06,599 back here at mindover Murder. Before we get back to 543 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,039 the podcast, just wanted to remind you that we have 544 00:28:09,079 --> 00:28:13,160 a go fundme effort going on right now. This campaign 545 00:28:13,279 --> 00:28:16,160 is designed to help us raise funds to help promote 546 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,720 mind over murder, and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway 547 00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:24,839 murders investigation forward. We'd love it if you could support 548 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,279 us in any way that you can. Any donation from 549 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,480 five dollars to whatever you can afford is very much 550 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,640 appreciated and will be incredibly helpful. The link is in 551 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,759 the show notes and in our social media pages. As always, 552 00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:42,759 thanks for your support. Now back to mindover Murder. 553 00:28:44,599 --> 00:28:50,519 Speaker 3: So I don't understand why do CODIS laws and policies 554 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,720 vary from state to state. Wouldn't it just make more sense. 555 00:28:54,079 --> 00:28:56,839 Do you have one set of national policies and that 556 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,000 way we are all on the same page one hundred 557 00:28:59,039 --> 00:29:02,400 percent of the time or I don't know. Am I 558 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,000 thinking about it too simplistically? It just it seems like 559 00:29:06,039 --> 00:29:08,599 the obvious answer would be yes, it's better to have 560 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,359 one set of policies. Why are we doing fifty states 561 00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:12,279 fifty policies. 562 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,839 Speaker 6: I think the reason is because every state gets to 563 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:23,480 make their own laws, and CODIS rules are directly related 564 00:29:23,559 --> 00:29:26,559 to the laws in that particular state. One state can 565 00:29:26,599 --> 00:29:30,119 do certain things, another state cannot. Some states take DNA 566 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,200 upon arrest, and some states like mine do not. Every 567 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,440 state because they all have different laws with regard to 568 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:41,559 who owes a DNA sample. That makes it very convoluted 569 00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:45,039 and very complicated because every state then has a different 570 00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:48,759 standard for who can be entered into the database. 571 00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to chime in here and say, this is insane, 572 00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:00,359 the fact that we have allowed this system to develop. 573 00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:08,279 This makes no sense whatsoever. Offenders offend all over the place. 574 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,359 And the Bundy example that we just spoke about, which 575 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,920 was fascinating, but I had forgotten that he had lived 576 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:22,240 in Tacoma, Washington, and yet I associate him with offenses 577 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,839 in other parts of the country. And of course we 578 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,160 know the story about Florida because we've talked with Kathy 579 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,400 Klina Rubin about surviving Ted Bondy's attack when she was 580 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,480 a college student in Florida. This makes no sense. And 581 00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:38,200 I'll go a step further. 582 00:30:38,279 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 5: Now. 583 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,599 Speaker 2: I'm not a professional, and Kristen isn't either, but I 584 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,160 am the brother of a murder victim. It's my intention 585 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,599 to pivot. When we solve the Colonial Parkway murders, it's 586 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,000 my intention to pivot to this larger issue of two 587 00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:58,720 hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides across the United States. 588 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,880 This is so so half asked as to not be believed. 589 00:31:03,279 --> 00:31:08,319 We're not running the country like a real country. You 590 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,359 can't have fifty different sets of rules. We need one 591 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,319 set of rules for the entire country. And quite frankly, 592 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,799 I think the databases should all be shared as well. 593 00:31:20,359 --> 00:31:23,599 I thought that was the idea of CODIS. It feels 594 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,640 to me like we need to revamp this entire system. 595 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,440 I can't believe that every single state Virginia in the 596 00:31:32,599 --> 00:31:37,119 Colonial Parkway murders example, every state has a different set 597 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:42,000 of rules and parameters. As Kristin was saying, this is insane. 598 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 6: It's very complicated, and I completely understand your frustration because 599 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,400 I've lived at I can't even tell you how many 600 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,519 times I just felt like banging my head against a 601 00:31:53,559 --> 00:31:57,799 wall because things that seem like constants are not necessarily 602 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,359 and unfortunately, what it's going to take is legislation. That's 603 00:32:01,359 --> 00:32:03,680 the bottom line is it's going to take either some 604 00:32:03,759 --> 00:32:06,759 type of federal legislation to mandate that all the states 605 00:32:06,839 --> 00:32:09,240 have the same rules, or it's going to each individual 606 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,200 state is going to have to amend their DNA collection 607 00:32:12,319 --> 00:32:14,839 statutes so that everyone's on the same page. And honestly, 608 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,839 you can't even get all the states to agree on 609 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,359 collecting DNA upon arrest. 610 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,319 Speaker 2: So I think we need one set of rules, and 611 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,960 I think the lack of leadership by the Department of 612 00:32:25,119 --> 00:32:29,720 Justice here is shocking. For God's sake, develop one set 613 00:32:29,759 --> 00:32:34,240 of parameters and these will oversee what should be a 614 00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:37,839 federal system. You can't have one set of rules in 615 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,640 Oklahoma and a different set of rules in Tennessee or 616 00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:45,240 Washington State and Florida. It just doesn't make any sense. 617 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 5: Unfortunately. 618 00:32:47,119 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 6: Yeah, every state has their own DNA database, and so 619 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,039 I don't know if you're really familiar with how cotis works, 620 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,920 but cotis is a software That's what cotis is. It's 621 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,920 a software program the DNA database itself. There are multi 622 00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:04,400 levels of what we call codis, So there's oftentimes states 623 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,240 will have local levels of cotis where maybe their individual 624 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,839 crime labs have a database within the state, and then 625 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,480 they've got their ESTIE database, which is their state database, 626 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,039 and then. 627 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 5: There's the national database. 628 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,319 Speaker 6: And so the samples that are in the state database, 629 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,920 if they meet their criteria, they can be uploaded to 630 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,799 the national database and then they can be searched against 631 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,839 other profiles that are in the National database, so that 632 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,440 the only DNA database that the FBI controls is the 633 00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:38,880 National DNA database. The other ones are controlled by the states. Now, 634 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,400 they still have to abide by COTIS rules which are 635 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,960 set forth by the FBI, but again they have to 636 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:45,559 abide by. 637 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 5: Their own state laws as to whose DNA can go 638 00:33:49,079 --> 00:33:50,039 into the system. 639 00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 6: And I mentioned earlier that there are samples that don't 640 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,400 meet the requirement to go into the national database. 641 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 5: That's something that I don't think most people know. 642 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 6: We're understand there are some cases, both offender samples and 643 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,839 crime scene evidence samples. 644 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 5: That don't make it into the national database. 645 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 6: And this is because the sample may they may not 646 00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:15,880 have obtained enough core low side or locations on the 647 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,639 genome identified when they did the DNA testing to upload 648 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:24,320 it to the national database. Most state DNA databases have 649 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,280 a lower threshold and a lower number of core low 650 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,000 side that they have to obtain in order to enter 651 00:34:30,039 --> 00:34:31,960 that profile into their state level. 652 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 5: But once you go up to national the standard. 653 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,599 Speaker 6: Is higher, right because you have more profiles, so you 654 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:40,880 have to be more discerning with those profiles. That's something 655 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,400 that even a lot of investigators don't understand when they're 656 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,000 working cold cases is when someone tells you, oh, yes, 657 00:34:47,039 --> 00:34:49,679 the profiles and code is, you should be asking. 658 00:34:49,519 --> 00:34:53,039 Speaker 3: Where one level lindsay, I feel like we need to 659 00:34:53,039 --> 00:34:54,599 sit down at crime kind and come up with a 660 00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:58,119 flow chart that shows all of these different levels of it, 661 00:34:58,199 --> 00:35:00,880 because even now you've just explained and it's so beautifully, 662 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,840 but it's I'm not going to be able to retain 663 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,599 this because there's not because of the way that you've 664 00:35:05,599 --> 00:35:07,880 explained it or anything like that, but just because it 665 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,000 is head spinning. It just seems so counterintuitive. It really 666 00:35:12,039 --> 00:35:15,119 does feel like it should be the national database and 667 00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:18,440 the state databases feed into it. You're saying that it 668 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,920 doesn't work like that, and that's making me go, but 669 00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:24,119 why it's I'm sure that's very frustrating. 670 00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:26,559 Speaker 5: It is, and it's I would say more than I 671 00:35:26,599 --> 00:35:27,679 think at this point. 672 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 6: As a as an investigator, you just have to really 673 00:35:30,039 --> 00:35:31,920 educate yourself. If you're going to work cold cases, you 674 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,079 better understand how CODIS works and understand that just because 675 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,639 you have a suspect that's in prison doesn't mean they're 676 00:35:39,679 --> 00:35:43,159 in CODUS. Just because your suspects in CODIS doesn't mean 677 00:35:43,199 --> 00:35:43,519 they're at. 678 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,119 Speaker 5: The national level of CODIS. 679 00:35:45,159 --> 00:35:47,119 Speaker 6: Just because your crime setne evidence is in CODIS, it 680 00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:49,639 doesn't mean it's at the national level of CODIS. They 681 00:35:49,679 --> 00:35:52,320 need to understand, like how do I confirm that? How 682 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:53,239 do I find this out? 683 00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:55,079 Speaker 5: And then if it's not, how do I what do 684 00:35:55,119 --> 00:35:55,719 I do about it? 685 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,639 Speaker 3: So theoretically, is there a way to get one hundred 686 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,239 percent of all offenders currently incarcerated into CODIS. Is there 687 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,840 a way to do this or is it just not 688 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,760 going to work the way that we optimistically want it to. 689 00:36:11,599 --> 00:36:14,519 Speaker 5: That's a trick question, Chris, because. 690 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,079 Speaker 3: Not intentional, not intentionally at all, Like this is from 691 00:36:20,119 --> 00:36:23,599 a civilian standpoint, someone who wants the best for victims. 692 00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:26,239 That my question is, why can't we go through and 693 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,000 just swab everybody and toss them all in there? I'm 694 00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:32,599 guessing that isn't the answer, though theoretically. 695 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 5: We should be able to do that. 696 00:36:33,559 --> 00:36:35,599 Speaker 6: It really depends and I hate to go back to 697 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,960 the state, but it depends on that particular state's law 698 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,760 if their laws retroactive. So that's one hurdle, and then 699 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,119 two is actually getting somebody to go back and count 700 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,280 doesn't take legislation, it doesn't take anything special. It just 701 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,639 takes someone to go back and actually do a census 702 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,639 or a survey to identify. Okay, I want a list 703 00:36:55,679 --> 00:36:57,719 of everybody in prison in our state, and then we're 704 00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:59,920 going to cross reference that against the code of database 705 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,239 and find out who's in there and who's not. 706 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 5: That's not rocket science. 707 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I can tell you. 708 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 5: That that's not happening. 709 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 6: This has not yet been identified as a major issue nationally. 710 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,079 Speaker 2: I'm making the aha face because I actually think we've 711 00:37:16,079 --> 00:37:18,880 talked with you about this before, We've talked with Rock 712 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:23,440 Harmon and other experts about this. I actually think we 713 00:37:23,599 --> 00:37:28,119 need to steer this in a direction where this becomes 714 00:37:28,519 --> 00:37:31,599 a national conversation. The other thing is I've said on 715 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,440 Mind over Murder and Kristen has two the fact that 716 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,000 there are two hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides, 717 00:37:37,079 --> 00:37:42,480 which maybe a conservative number, even that is not something 718 00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:45,480 that's well known in our opinion, and it should be 719 00:37:45,519 --> 00:37:50,519 a national scandal because we've all watched these procedurals on TV, 720 00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:53,280 which are fun to watch, but as we all know, 721 00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:57,599 not terribly realistic. We've all been sold a bill of goods, 722 00:37:57,639 --> 00:38:01,800 which is that we think that crimes are solved quickly 723 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,199 and easily in state of the art labs with lots 724 00:38:05,199 --> 00:38:09,800 of colored water or something going up and down with bubbles, 725 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,920 and exceptionally well dressed and often quite lovely people, both 726 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,480 women and men, solving all of these cases in forty 727 00:38:16,519 --> 00:38:18,960 eight minutes or less. And yet you're here to tell 728 00:38:19,039 --> 00:38:20,559 us that's not the reality. 729 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,079 Speaker 6: No, I fully understand where you're coming from. On the 730 00:38:26,119 --> 00:38:28,840 cold cases. Why do we not have a national cold 731 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:29,559 case database? 732 00:38:30,119 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yes, great question. 733 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,559 Speaker 3: We agree, and I will give Virginia mad props here. 734 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:41,679 Virginia just started a cold case database. Hats off to 735 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,519 them for doing it. The issue that I have found, though, 736 00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:49,599 is someone who goes scrolling through the cold case database 737 00:38:49,639 --> 00:38:52,840 here in Virginia on the regular is it is almost 738 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,559 impossible to use. It is very hard to search. It 739 00:38:56,599 --> 00:38:59,559 is even when you put in the names of people 740 00:38:59,599 --> 00:39:02,119 that you know to be victims, they don't always come up. 741 00:39:02,519 --> 00:39:05,559 Not every cold case is in there, and we don't 742 00:39:05,559 --> 00:39:09,039 have a really good explanation for why that might or 743 00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:12,000 might not be. I love the idea of a national 744 00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:15,000 cold case database, but if it is done, boy, I 745 00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:17,480 hope it's going to be managed a little bit better 746 00:39:18,119 --> 00:39:20,360 and made a little more user friendly than some of 747 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,119 the ones that I know were at the various state levels. 748 00:39:23,039 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 6: But honestly waiting to get Amazon to build it, right, 749 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,679 because all you have to do is just look at 750 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,920 your Amazon car and it knows what you're searching for. 751 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,519 Speaker 5: So basically you just have to talk. 752 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 6: About Amazon, and now you've got all these these suggestions 753 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:36,440 about things you might like. 754 00:39:36,559 --> 00:39:39,159 Speaker 5: That's basically what you need your cold case database to do. Right. 755 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,079 Speaker 6: Yeah, you're searching for this person that's going to give 756 00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:45,159 you a list automatically of other cases that potentially might 757 00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:45,840 be associated. 758 00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:48,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, seriously, the people who run Amazon need to be 759 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,760 doing all of this stuff like. They've clearly got it together. 760 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,639 They have somehow managed to optimize it. We need this 761 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:55,320 as well. 762 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's because our phones listen to our conversations and 763 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:04,519 then suddenly start suggesting things. Yes, but perhaps we should 764 00:40:04,559 --> 00:40:07,199 talk more loudly in the kitchen sometime about the fact 765 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,679 that we need a national cold case database. 766 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,119 Speaker 6: Yes, exactly, and maybe that's a good I was trying 767 00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:15,599 to think. I don't know who else going to be 768 00:40:15,639 --> 00:40:18,360 at crime con but there have to be some movers 769 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,079 and shakers and people there that can make something like 770 00:40:21,119 --> 00:40:23,079 this happen. I don't know, and it doesn't seem like 771 00:40:23,159 --> 00:40:25,840 rocket science. We do have name this which is great. 772 00:40:26,039 --> 00:40:30,039 Namous is for unidentified and missing persons. It is not 773 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:31,239 cold case homicides. 774 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,639 Speaker 3: I don't want to let you off the call without 775 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,360 asking you a little bit about the SAKI grant program, 776 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:45,480 Sexual Assault Kit Initiative program, because the SAKE program here 777 00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:50,079 in Virginia is actually what led to the recent identification 778 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,920 of an offender in three of the cases associated with 779 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:55,320 the Colonial Parkway murders. 780 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 2: Let me just ask one generalized question, why are the 781 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,960 numbers so low of the number of law enforcement agencies 782 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,679 that are utilizing the SAKI grants here? As Christen said, 783 00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:11,119 just a moment ago, the folks at the Virginia Department 784 00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:16,840 of Forensic Science applied for SAKI grants, which we totally supported, 785 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:21,119 and that led directly to the identification of an offender 786 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:27,360 after thirty seven years of waiting for answers. So we're 787 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,360 thrilled and we really appreciate the work that's being done. 788 00:41:30,599 --> 00:41:33,400 Do you know have any sense of how could we 789 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,920 make the SAKE program more widely used? Is that a 790 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:39,800 fair question and one you could answer. 791 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 6: You know, it's available to any law enforcement agency that applies, 792 00:41:44,039 --> 00:41:46,280 not that everyone would get it if they apply. It's 793 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,079 like it's a federal grant. You have to apply and 794 00:41:48,119 --> 00:41:50,840 you have to respond to a solicitation that comes out annually, 795 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,760 and it's a standard federal grant. And I'm pretty sure 796 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,440 most law enforcement agencies are well aware of the federal 797 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:57,599 grants that are available. 798 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd love to see it more widely used. And 799 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,960 of course we're an example of here's a case now 800 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,840 that's very near and dear to our hearts that's moving 801 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,239 forward again because Virginia applied for and got ZACKI grants 802 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,360 and they're out there working it. Our understanding is they're 803 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,039 continuing to do so, and this gives families like mine 804 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,760 and folks across the country will hope that their cases 805 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,800 are going to be solved. And we understand that in 806 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,719 a case like ours that's thirty seven years old, there 807 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,880 was a real good chance that this offender and perhaps others. 808 00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:33,920 We understand they may be dead. It's been a long time. 809 00:42:34,079 --> 00:42:37,000 But at the same time, those answers that I mentioned 810 00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:41,280 a few minutes ago are so important and they're inquity 811 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:42,679 meaningful to the family. 812 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 6: Yeah, and I'm a really big proponent of evaluating deceased 813 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:54,079 offenders for DNA locily DNA collections for. 814 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,079 Speaker 5: That very reason, because I've taught classes. 815 00:42:56,679 --> 00:43:01,320 Speaker 6: And given presentations on collecting DNA samples for offenders who 816 00:43:01,519 --> 00:43:04,880 have slipped through the cracks, and oftentimes people will say, 817 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,079 why does it matter? Why do you care about collecting 818 00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:11,119 samples from somebody who's dead, Just exactly as you just stated, 819 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,400 because someone out there is waiting for an answer. 820 00:43:14,519 --> 00:43:16,840 Speaker 5: Someone wants to know what happened to their loved one. 821 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 6: Victims want answers, And frankly, do you really want your 822 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,920 law enforcement agencies spending time and resources investigating cases and 823 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,519 spinning their wheels when the answer could be sitting right 824 00:43:28,519 --> 00:43:29,760 in front of them. 825 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And as you were saying at the top 826 00:43:32,559 --> 00:43:36,679 of this conversation, in the example that you walked us through, 827 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,800 that was a situation where the offender had been put 828 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,039 to death by the State of Washington years before, and 829 00:43:44,119 --> 00:43:47,679 yet answers were provided as a result of your and 830 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:52,400 your teams working together to look for these answers. The 831 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:58,440 offender dispatched, but the answers for those families were incredibly 832 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,760 important and meaningful. That's why I reminded everybody in law enforcement. 833 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,280 It isn't just about putting offenders away or appropriate levels 834 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,199 of punishment. It's also for answers for those families that 835 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,159 are waiting, sometimes for decades. 836 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,639 Speaker 6: Absolutely, this most recent case was almost fifty years old, 837 00:44:18,199 --> 00:44:22,320 forty nine years old. That victim's family for forty nine 838 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,519 years had no idea who was responsible. I don't know 839 00:44:25,559 --> 00:44:28,159 if that helps them to know who did it. I 840 00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:31,039 don't know that I can say that. I hope it 841 00:44:31,079 --> 00:44:32,760 gives them at least some peace of mind that law 842 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,840 enforcement didn't forget about them, and that someone still cared 843 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,039 enough to still work on it, and that Charles Campbell 844 00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:42,960 was never a suspect in that case. He was not 845 00:44:43,039 --> 00:44:46,280 on the radar for that case at all, in any way, 846 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,159 shape or form, never would have been linked to that 847 00:44:48,199 --> 00:44:50,280 case otherwise had it not been for the DNA. 848 00:44:51,079 --> 00:44:54,159 Speaker 2: I can say for sure that in the Colonial Parkway murders, 849 00:44:54,199 --> 00:44:57,719 we've spoken to those other family members who received this news, 850 00:44:58,119 --> 00:45:01,719 and Kristin and I talked about this times recently. I 851 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,480 hope people can understand that you've been looking for answers 852 00:45:05,559 --> 00:45:09,519 for that long. It's actually good news to have a 853 00:45:09,639 --> 00:45:12,800 question that's been hanging over your family for decades, have 854 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,760 an answer. The answer was never going to be a 855 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,519 truly satisfying one, but at least they know what happened 856 00:45:20,559 --> 00:45:22,880 to their loved one and they have a somewhat better 857 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,880 understanding of how and why this happened. It was never 858 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,800 going to make complete sense, and it wasn't going to 859 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:34,920 be acceptable to them, but they have answers that they've 860 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,239 been seeking for more than thirty years. 861 00:45:38,079 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 6: Exactly well, for a lot of victims and survivors and 862 00:45:41,559 --> 00:45:44,760 family members of victims, I don't know if satisfied is 863 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,159 the right word, but they are pleased with just receiving 864 00:45:48,599 --> 00:45:51,000 news that someone is working on the case and that 865 00:45:51,119 --> 00:45:55,079 someone cares and that they haven't been forgotten, even if 866 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,920 at the end of the day they don't get what 867 00:45:58,119 --> 00:46:00,239 they ultimately wanted, or maybe they don't get the the 868 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,800 sentence that they ultimately wanted, or maybe the of vendors dead, 869 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,800 and so they don't actually get punished. 870 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,159 Speaker 5: As you said, sometimes it's just having the answer. 871 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 6: And I just from my experience working with victims and 872 00:46:11,519 --> 00:46:14,000 with family members of victims, a lot of I've had 873 00:46:14,119 --> 00:46:18,119 people tell me that it really just changed a lot 874 00:46:18,159 --> 00:46:20,519 of things for them, just knowing that someone actually cared 875 00:46:20,679 --> 00:46:23,519 about them enough to pick up the phone or drive 876 00:46:23,559 --> 00:46:25,719 to their house, sit down with them and talk. And 877 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,880 not everybody wants that, but some people do, and people 878 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,000 just they want to know that the police or the 879 00:46:33,039 --> 00:46:36,360 law enforcement agency is still actually cares about them and 880 00:46:36,519 --> 00:46:39,079 that they're not just a number or a statistic or 881 00:46:39,079 --> 00:46:42,079 that they have been moved to the side to handle 882 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:43,599 current cases that are coming in. 883 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,920 Speaker 3: Very well said, so, Lindsay, we will put a link 884 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,840 to your article in our show notes, but tell everybody 885 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:51,960 where they can find your book in my DNA. 886 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,079 Speaker 6: My book is available anywhere you can buy books Amazon, 887 00:46:56,519 --> 00:47:00,480 Barnes and Noble, Target, Walmart, or you can buy it 888 00:47:00,519 --> 00:47:05,360 directly from the publisher's website, which is actually better for me. 889 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:06,960 So if you just spe you can order it from 890 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,559 one Idea at press dot com. 891 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 3: Lindsay, thank you so much for joining us, and we 892 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,280 look forward to seeing you at Crime Con in just 893 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:15,480 a couple of days. 894 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:17,280 Speaker 5: Me too. Thanks for having me. 895 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 3: That is going to do it for this episode of 896 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,840 Mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 897 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:23,599 see you next time. 898 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,840 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 899 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:38,360 another Dog Productions. 900 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,239 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 901 00:47:42,599 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 902 00:47:45,679 --> 00:47:47,719 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 903 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:52,280 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 904 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,119 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 905 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,880 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 906 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:00,400 Murders on Facebook. 907 00:48:00,559 --> 00:48:03,559 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 908 00:48:03,639 --> 00:48:05,239 Bill Thomas five six. 909 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,639 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.