Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapists podcast. My name is Gamiferson.
Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this
Speaker 1: show by for me two and one our folks, welcome
Speaker 1: back to the podcast. Very excited to have as my
Speaker 1: guest today, Doctor Rachel Siegfried, Rachel, welcome, Thank you, so
Speaker 1: excited to be here. Awesome. Rachel is a licensed clinical
Speaker 1: psychologist in New York City with extensive experience treating trauma
Speaker 1: across diverse populations. She holds a BS from Cornell and
Speaker 1: a doctorate from LIU Brooklyn, who is trained in major
Speaker 1: New York City hospitals and clinic settings, working with individuals
Speaker 1: including trauma survivors, veterans nine to eleven, first responders, undocumented individuals,
Speaker 1: LGBTQIA clients, and emerging adults. She recently authored a chapter
Speaker 1: on complex PTSD for book on Trauma and the Law,
Speaker 1: helping legal professionals better understand trauma psychological impact. Doctor Sigfried
Speaker 1: is particularly interested in exploring moral injury and how entry
Speaker 1: to trauma is often misdiagnosed as personality pathology rather than
Speaker 1: recognized as PTSD. All right, Rachel, obviously, just a little
Speaker 1: bit about you before we could go and share with
Speaker 1: the listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently.
Speaker 2: I'm a born, born, and brid raised New Yorker, so
Speaker 2: still in my hometown, New York City.
Speaker 1: That's it. You ain't leaving.
Speaker 2: I tried to get away from Cornell for a chapter
Speaker 2: Smester in Spain, but drew me back.
Speaker 1: All right, so let's go back. How does this start
Speaker 1: for you? How does this interest start for you?
Speaker 2: Well, if you ask my mom, it was in elementary
Speaker 2: school when she goes to the you know guy and
Speaker 2: meet all the teachers at a parent teacher conference, and
Speaker 2: she goes to meet the school count and introduce herself,
Speaker 2: and she's already very aware, well aware of who I am,
Speaker 2: because I've been bringing classmates to him who are arguing
Speaker 2: so that they can go work through their issues. So
Speaker 2: she would say, then, I would say that I've always
Speaker 2: just been really interested in people. I really liked observing people.
Speaker 2: I never really grew out of the why phase of
Speaker 2: wanting to know why, and my I just I started
Speaker 2: taking small psychology classes here and there in high school
Speaker 2: and things, but it really formulated in college. I actually
Speaker 2: wrote my college essay about people watching and my love
Speaker 2: of people watching, which luckily they didn't find weird. And right,
Speaker 2: what do I enjoy sitting on the New York City
Speaker 2: bus and you know, just live their lives?
Speaker 1: Have you heard of stalking?
Speaker 2: And then at in college, I was studying human development
Speaker 2: and there was a course on risk and Resiliency in
Speaker 2: childhood and Adolescents. And I really fell in love with
Speaker 2: that course, with understanding trauma and with childhood and adverse events.
Speaker 2: And so this professor would use books and memoirs, right
Speaker 2: like we read on Finding Fish, and we read the
Speaker 2: book that Pressures is based on to really understand kind
Speaker 2: of these childhood narratives. And so I liked the professor
Speaker 2: Janis Whitlock so much that I joined her Non Suicidal
Speaker 2: Self Interest Behavior Lab, where I spent a very uplifting
Speaker 2: summer just listening from nine to five to interviews from
Speaker 2: adolescents who were engaging non suicidal self interest behavior and
Speaker 2: then interviews with their parents about what they were experiencing.
Speaker 2: And I was just spending over a month coding these interviews,
Speaker 2: and in that the big theme we found was that
Speaker 2: these kids wanted something called respectful curiosity. They really just
Speaker 2: wanted to be listened to. They wanted someone to want
Speaker 2: to know the why. And I mean as a podcast interviewer,
Speaker 2: right you, this is what you do. You get to
Speaker 2: know people's why.
Speaker 1: And so if we can just pause there for a second,
Speaker 1: what what fill that out for us? Because you have
Speaker 1: these these kids here who are injuring themselves what through
Speaker 1: all various means, not not suicidal, but at the at
Speaker 1: the core there's that need. Yes, I guess, uh, I
Speaker 1: guess I'm a little surprised. I'm not here, We're we're
Speaker 1: I mean in there, there's got to be a lot
Speaker 1: of pain, right, I mean, you just don't hurt yourself.
Speaker 1: So talk more fill that out for us more.
Speaker 2: So these kids. You know, the interesting part of the
Speaker 2: studies it didn't go at that moment too much into
Speaker 2: maybe the individual's traumas or emotion and regulation pieces that
Speaker 2: were leading to the self injury.
Speaker 1: They did.
Speaker 2: That was part of it. Of course, the kids told
Speaker 2: their stories, but what was going on was these kids
Speaker 2: were struggling with recovery and why could they not either
Speaker 2: stop or what was stopping them from being able to
Speaker 2: address us with their parents, that so much of self
Speaker 2: injury relies on the secret, and that nobody knows what's happening.
Speaker 2: And you know, this was two thousand and ten, no,
Speaker 2: twenty eleven, the this wasn't you know. It's been an
Speaker 2: even more increasingly studied topic since then, And a lot
Speaker 2: of the parents thought their kids were acting out trying
Speaker 2: to get attention, right, We've all heard those words in
Speaker 2: the field, and that really wasn't what was happening for
Speaker 2: these kids. And so the more that they were just
Speaker 2: being told that they were acting out for attention, the
Speaker 2: more disconnected, the less understood they felt, and the more
Speaker 2: they wanted to harm themselves because it was the only
Speaker 2: way that they were either regulating expressing, and often the
Speaker 2: way that they were self injuring had so much meaning.
Speaker 2: What they were using to self injure, where they were
Speaker 2: making the marks, what were they spelling out words or
Speaker 2: number or did they have a number of them? And
Speaker 2: all of this was just being missed because of course
Speaker 2: the parents are panicked seeing their children who they love
Speaker 2: in danger, but because they're so focused on that and
Speaker 2: aren't really regulating themselves in that moment, they're really just
Speaker 2: not engaging with that curiosity.
Speaker 1: So how do things unfold for you after that? With
Speaker 1: your work, et cetera.
Speaker 2: After that it really drove, you know, that interest in
Speaker 2: the why became even bigger. And I think that really
Speaker 2: made me curious about specifically trauma and write that risk
Speaker 2: and resiliency piece. And so I joined more research labs
Speaker 2: and eventually go to grad school. And in graduate school,
Speaker 2: it was in the clinical practice that I really started
Speaker 2: to develop an interest in complex PTSD specifically because when
Speaker 2: working with patients who could identify a trauma, whether that
Speaker 2: was sexual assaults or write a shock trauma such as war,
Speaker 2: they were showing up much more like a personality disorder
Speaker 2: would be characterized. And that's why sometimes supervisors would point out.
Speaker 2: They'd say, Oh, this diagnosis is borderline personality or this
Speaker 2: one is narcissism. And I was just very struck that
Speaker 2: we wouldn't with these clients and these trauma histories, we
Speaker 2: couldn't do all of these amazing manualized trauma treatments that
Speaker 2: were out there, because so much of that work was
Speaker 2: just building trust and getting to understand why was this person?
Speaker 2: Why was the person's character and sense of self so
Speaker 2: impacted in a way where they couldn't have this intimate
Speaker 2: relationship that would help them eventually heal. And so I
Speaker 2: then started going to places like World Trade Center and
Speaker 2: the VA and seeing what it looked like when trauma
Speaker 2: went untreated and when people had a foundation even before
Speaker 2: nine to eleven or before being you know, before their deployments,
Speaker 2: where their childhood foundation of either neglect or physical abuse
Speaker 2: or sexual abuse how played a significant role in their
Speaker 2: inability to have safe, loving relationships in the heir. Now, so.
Speaker 1: This is tough stuff, I mean hard stuff. How are
Speaker 1: you when you start doing this? Even with going back
Speaker 1: to the kids in that research project, I mean that's
Speaker 1: for a lot of people really hard to hear. How
Speaker 1: are you doing that? How are you managing that?
Speaker 2: I there's a quote. Have you ever read Theater of
Speaker 2: War by Brian Dowries Mm hmm, ten out of ten
Speaker 2: recommend It's an amazing book. And he runs these huge
Speaker 2: productions where major plays like Greek works are taken and
Speaker 2: performed in front of audiences like veterans or people in
Speaker 2: Guantanamo Bay, and through acting through these narratives, he has
Speaker 2: the community actually come together to see their pain through theater.
Speaker 2: And he has this wonderful quote where he says, trauma
Speaker 2: narratives comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. And maybe
Speaker 2: because I am the grandchild of Holocaust survivors, There's just
Speaker 2: never been a time in my life where I can
Speaker 2: remember there not being narratives of trauma, but not in
Speaker 2: an overwhelming way as a child, but that the world
Speaker 2: is filled with people who have been through incredibly tough
Speaker 2: experiences that shape who they are. And so the idea
Speaker 2: of not listening to that narrative or not being interested
Speaker 2: in that narrative, I guess hasn't really ever overwhelmed me.
Speaker 2: It just makes me feel closer to people.
Speaker 1: And when you started doing that work, and I'm guessing
Speaker 1: this wasn't necessarily conscious, but was there What kind of
Speaker 1: a poll was there towards these people, towards the stories
Speaker 1: they were telling. Were you feeling that somehow you wanted
Speaker 1: to quote unquote help or listen or what.
Speaker 2: I thought that listening was helping that somebody.
Speaker 1: One.
Speaker 2: People like talking about themselves, but people when we feel
Speaker 2: seen and heard the termine. So much of trauma work
Speaker 2: is bearing witness when we feel that somebody wants to
Speaker 2: bear witness to our pain, that we don't have to
Speaker 2: carry it alone. I think that's when we feel safest
Speaker 2: and we can really heal, and that that's what trauma
Speaker 2: so disrupts, especially complex trauma from childhood, that ability to
Speaker 2: trust and connect with others. So right, the idea that
Speaker 2: relationships can be what break us and hurt us, they
Speaker 2: can also be what heals us. And so I've always
Speaker 2: just really loved the opportunity, whether that was as a
Speaker 2: friend or as a therapist, to be in that role.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about this topic of moral injury and untreated trauma,
Speaker 1: how it's misdiagnosed, How did that resonate become resonant for you?
Speaker 2: It was really so while we're using the word right,
Speaker 2: people get diagnosed with a personality disorder with untreated trauma.
Speaker 2: I always really loved the more jargon a clinical term
Speaker 2: of characterological disruptions, because I think when we understand trauma
Speaker 2: as disrupting a character and that ability to build our character,
Speaker 2: it really helps understand us understand why, right, somebody who
Speaker 2: experienced trauma at age six is going to show up
Speaker 2: very differently than somebody who didn't and again it was
Speaker 2: through working and getting to see first nine to eleven
Speaker 2: responders rarely who were sharing that they had built their
Speaker 2: world on being part of a system, right, that they
Speaker 2: would help others, and there was some kind of justice
Speaker 2: in the world. For some of these responders, they had
Speaker 2: childhood like a childhood experience of again either physical abuse, neglect,
Speaker 2: or sexual abuse, where they had learned to mistrust, to
Speaker 2: not trust authority figures, to not trust the system, and
Speaker 2: they became, you know, people who could help other people.
Speaker 2: That was one of the ways that they survived. They
Speaker 2: found structure in these jobs. Right, there's so much structure
Speaker 2: in being an officer, being in the fire department. And
Speaker 2: then right, seventeen years later, after nine to eleven, after
Speaker 2: this major trauma in which it wasn't just the physical
Speaker 2: trauma of what happened on nine to eleven or working
Speaker 2: in the pit for months after, it was the moral injury, right,
Speaker 2: the betrayal of what is right that America let them down. Right,
Speaker 2: they not given the benefits they needed, They were not
Speaker 2: given the medical or psychological support that they deserved, and
Speaker 2: they were just not given any financial resources that they needed.
Speaker 2: And so seventeen years later, all of that is compounding
Speaker 2: into a complete mistrust of the world and a mistrust
Speaker 2: of me in therapy. Right in you're saying you're here
Speaker 2: to help me. I've heard this before. Why should I
Speaker 2: trust you? And that's what really did it for me,
Speaker 2: being asked, right, what makes you so special that I
Speaker 2: should trust you? When this has never worked before?
Speaker 1: So what do you do with that knowledge? How does
Speaker 1: that impact your work? What's important to you?
Speaker 2: I think so much of that work has been informed
Speaker 2: really by Judith Hermann's work about establishing safety and that
Speaker 2: being the first thing we do. And you know, in
Speaker 2: our field, that's something that I think is not so unusual.
Speaker 2: It's not definitely not unique to me, the idea of
Speaker 2: really establishing trust in safety and psychological report, but in
Speaker 2: other fields it's quite foreign, right with You might just
Speaker 2: develop a professional relationship as a lawyer or a doctor,
Speaker 2: but the idea that you have to win over someone's
Speaker 2: trust is not necessarily as common. And so I think
Speaker 2: I also have really developed a passionate interest in how
Speaker 2: to help people with complex trauma or how to help
Speaker 2: other professionals bridge that gap.
Speaker 1: That's interesting, So talk more about that. How do you
Speaker 1: translate that how do you communicate that to a professional
Speaker 1: who for who maybe that that is a foreign concept
Speaker 1: not in their wheelhouse, if you will.
Speaker 2: So, I actually come from a family of many lawyers.
Speaker 2: I'm the black sheep as the psychologist, and my so
Speaker 2: my experience when I'm you know, interacting with family or
Speaker 2: other lawyers that I know is so often you can
Speaker 2: make a case out of anything, but you have to
Speaker 2: have your evidence. Does your argument make sense? And there's
Speaker 2: a you know, there's a lot of love of the rational,
Speaker 2: and complex trauma does not love rational right, and they're
Speaker 2: what I love. What I love about psychology in the
Speaker 2: mind is right with the why is there's always if
Speaker 2: you go far enough, you will get to the why
Speaker 2: and it will make sense. But you have to take
Speaker 2: the journey to get there. And that is what I
Speaker 2: really enjoy helping other professionals understand, is to have that
Speaker 2: patience to get there.
Speaker 1: That you do you find yourself having to explain and
Speaker 1: or justify why that why is important.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think helping other professionals understand when the basis
Speaker 2: of complex trauma, where it's coming from, right, how disrupted
Speaker 2: this person's trust system and sense of self. Is that
Speaker 2: when you're coming in and telling them you do this right.
Speaker 2: If you, you know, don't get into any arguments or
Speaker 2: fights while you were, you know, incarcerated, it's going to
Speaker 2: look better to the judge. Makes total sense when you
Speaker 2: say it that way. However, when your client, something happens, right,
Speaker 2: your client gets into a fight, gets into an argument,
Speaker 2: something happens with another inmate. Lawyers can get frustrated. You're
Speaker 2: hurting the case. Right, there's your clients now hurting the case.
Speaker 2: They're not working with you, and there might be an
Speaker 2: inclination to reprimand right, you can't do that, you shouldn't
Speaker 2: do that, and helping lawyers and other pressions understand that
Speaker 2: that isn't what the person needs in that moment. The
Speaker 2: person has been chastised and berated and humiliated really by
Speaker 2: authority figures and systems their whole life. And so in
Speaker 2: this opportunity, starting with why did you get in the fight?
Speaker 2: Why did that happen? I know you know that that's
Speaker 2: not a good idea, so why there had to be
Speaker 2: a reason. And then once you get to the reason,
Speaker 2: then you can kind of work with the person and
Speaker 2: say I completely understand where that came from and let's
Speaker 2: talk about how that isn't That behavior isn't going to
Speaker 2: help our joint goal.
Speaker 1: Is is that their job? Though? Would at night? Would
Speaker 1: it not be more? And I guess every example is different,
Speaker 1: or every circumstance is different, but maybe it would even
Speaker 1: open the door for them to say, you know what,
Speaker 1: let's bring in doctor Rachel Siegfried speak with her. This
Speaker 1: really sounds like you're dealing with a kid right who
Speaker 1: is having explosive behavior, and we're berating that kid for
Speaker 1: all the explosive behavior when we're not really looking at
Speaker 1: what the hell's going on behind the scenes here with
Speaker 1: this kid.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think bringing in a psychologist is great. There
Speaker 2: are a few things when you have to have the
Speaker 2: money and resources for that, right and you have to
Speaker 2: get your client to agree and to trust to that.
Speaker 2: If your client doesn't already trust you, they're not exactly
Speaker 2: going to be in client, especially if they come from
Speaker 2: a background where psychologists stigmatized that they're going to say,
Speaker 2: you're now you think I'm crazy? Right now, you're just
Speaker 2: going to send me to a shrink. There was a
Speaker 2: totally real reason I did that, you know So I
Speaker 2: think that there's I love when people would bring in
Speaker 2: a consultation that I think the lawyer also has to
Speaker 2: be able to work with the person, and the person
Speaker 2: has to be able to trust their lawyer. And so
Speaker 2: I think that's where sometimes asking the why and knowing
Speaker 2: your limits, right, if you feel that you're not able
Speaker 2: to navigate that conversation, maybe it's bringing in a professional
Speaker 2: who can and having them there with you.
Speaker 1: But so in the bio, I mentioned that you authored
Speaker 1: a chapter. What was that about? Specifically? Are you able
Speaker 1: to talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 2: It's specifically actually about this. It is going through and
Speaker 2: breaking down a lot of the jargon that is in
Speaker 2: complex trauma research and explaining kind of that foundation of
Speaker 2: the loss of autonomy, the loss of trust, feelings of inferiority,
Speaker 2: and how those will play out can play out within
Speaker 2: the system and with your clients, and how to even
Speaker 2: maybe start seeing flags to even think about the question
Speaker 2: of trauma. Is your client being labeled as difficult? Do
Speaker 2: they carry multiple diagnoses of different mood or psychotic disorders?
Speaker 2: And that I think a lot of the times those
Speaker 2: can be really great indicators that is the person really
Speaker 2: that difficult or is the person pushing back because they're
Speaker 2: feeling disregulated or trapped or victimized.
Speaker 1: Again, feels like you're educating a whole population. I mean,
Speaker 1: does this come Is this something that's like a brief
Speaker 1: workshop in law school? If at all, are they I
Speaker 1: would that would you know? Are they taught this any
Speaker 1: portion of this? No?
Speaker 2: Not that it in my experience, No that I've heard.
Speaker 2: I've never heard of people saying that in law school
Speaker 2: they got a class on maybe like you know, how
Speaker 2: to use psychology in vordear or something else, but not
Speaker 2: how to deal with clients who are struggling with mental
Speaker 2: illness and how to really question trauma as a basis.
Speaker 1: What we talk more specifically about why this became important
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 2: So all of my training was within hospital systems, and
Speaker 2: my last year was at Elmhurst, and it was during
Speaker 2: the pandemic UH and it was really hard to see
Speaker 2: when our clients were already struggling in world where everything's
Speaker 2: shut down. But so often when I was working on
Speaker 2: inpatient units, I was getting called to the unit to
Speaker 2: handle my patient because the patient wasn't cooperating with the psychiatrist,
Speaker 2: the patient had gotten into a fight with the nurses,
Speaker 2: or and so it felt like I was constantly being
Speaker 2: a parent called to school right because your kid did
Speaker 2: something and it didn't feel right for the client. Right.
Speaker 2: These patients are here because they're really struggling right there there,
Speaker 2: because they've had a psychotic break or wanted to done
Speaker 2: their life, and nobody it didn't feel like people weren't
Speaker 2: necessarily trying to understand them because it's an overwhelmed public
Speaker 2: hospital system. There were absolutely people who did, but in
Speaker 2: that overwhelmed system, you can't spend as much time as
Speaker 2: you want to with each client, right, and so right
Speaker 2: when clients aren't taking their medication, it's we're going to
Speaker 2: go to court or you're gonna have to take it,
Speaker 2: And well, why don't you want to take it? Right?
Speaker 2: I've heard clients say, because I'm drowsy. This is a
Speaker 2: co ed unit. I don't feel safe. That's a great
Speaker 2: reason if you've experienced sexual trauma and people are saying, well,
Speaker 2: they didn't tell me that. They didn't tell me that
Speaker 2: during intake. Of course they didn't. They hadn't built any
Speaker 2: trust yet.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. What do you think allows you to do
Speaker 1: this work? Because you seem I asked that question because
Speaker 1: there's a particular obviously curiosity that you have or almost
Speaker 1: like a need you have to get in there. And
Speaker 1: what listen ask these questions? What is it?
Speaker 2: I feel like I've just always felt this. It's just
Speaker 2: everybody does make sense at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: like there's a grain of truth at the end of
Speaker 2: the day. And I just I love a puzzle. I do.
Speaker 2: I loved to puzzle so much. You know, I'll spend
Speaker 2: way too much time on sadogu.
Speaker 1: So and is it is it like we need to
Speaker 1: find out what's behind or beneath We're at the core
Speaker 1: of this, And that's important because why.
Speaker 2: I think once we understand where our behaviors and our
Speaker 2: feelings are coming from, we can have so much more
Speaker 2: empathy for ourselves. And right if we feel that we're
Speaker 2: doing something and it doesn't make sense to us or
Speaker 2: to anyone else, that's incredibly painful. Right when we feel
Speaker 2: that we are doing something right, maybe it's that I
Speaker 2: push away everyone I feel close to. Maybe I understand that,
Speaker 2: but if nobody else understands why, I'm going to feel
Speaker 2: incredibly lonely, I'm gonna feel even lonelier than I already did,
Speaker 2: because I'm not being seen, and that if I don't
Speaker 2: understand why I'm doing it now, I just I feel crazy.
Speaker 2: I feel disconnected, And I think I've such a gift
Speaker 2: to be able to feel that we make sense to
Speaker 2: ourselves and that others can then also understand us.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting to be doing this as a psychologist,
Speaker 1: but it takes on a different aura or you when
Speaker 1: you were educating other popular or other other professionals about this.
Speaker 1: Right again, it's it's it's it's a language that they
Speaker 1: don't normally use, and it's asking. I feel it's asking
Speaker 1: them to do something that. Okay, it doesn't matter to
Speaker 1: me why they're doing it. They they created this problem
Speaker 1: or this X, and why happened. We now we got
Speaker 1: to deal with all that. Why are you asking me
Speaker 1: to deal with why? Why is that important? Why is
Speaker 1: why important?
Speaker 2: You know? I definitely I've gotten this from my parents
Speaker 2: when they last at different points, like I've got this case.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, oh, if you thought about asking here, and
Speaker 2: they're like, uh, you know, go down that road, and
Speaker 2: I think that it is. My answer is always kind
Speaker 2: of you don't have to do right, You don't have
Speaker 2: to go down the road of the y. But the
Speaker 2: person you're deeming difficult, they're gonna stay difficult, have fun. Right,
Speaker 2: you're not going to get any trust. You might do
Speaker 2: a great job on their behalf. I don't doubt that
Speaker 2: there's write that ethic there. You might do a wonderful
Speaker 2: job as their attorney. Can you do more? Can you
Speaker 2: be a different experience for this person? Does that matter
Speaker 2: to you? And my answer is I hope yes. It
Speaker 2: isn't their job, but you can be, as you know,
Speaker 2: you can be a different chapter in someone else's story
Speaker 2: through these small acts, and.
Speaker 1: Which I mean just right, I mean it's very into
Speaker 1: seem to say, well, it's not you know, as I said,
Speaker 1: it may not be their job, it may not be
Speaker 1: part of their job description. But it's also interesting to
Speaker 1: think that people who you know necessarily maybe go into
Speaker 1: that field. Maybe that's not part of their makeup to
Speaker 1: ask that particular question, right, and whereas for you or
Speaker 1: myself it would be. But as you're saying, it's crucial
Speaker 1: to working with the people they're going to be working with.
Speaker 2: Wow, it matters to the clients. And right, if you're
Speaker 2: saying I wanted you write by the client, then here's
Speaker 2: another tool in that toolkit that can really surf you
Speaker 2: also can serve their defense, right that understanding that this
Speaker 2: person might have done something violent or criminal, and can
Speaker 2: we also understand the foundation of trauma and how that
Speaker 2: could have had an impact or mitigating factors. There's also
Speaker 2: a legal you know, if you add in, hey, this
Speaker 2: could benefit your legal defense or your legal strategy. It
Speaker 2: isn't tech that I think that part is a little
Speaker 2: bit more enticing too.
Speaker 1: So as we kind of wine down here, Rachel, in
Speaker 1: what capacity now are you working? Who do you work with?
Speaker 2: I'm currently in transitioning to private practice and this spring
Speaker 2: I'm starting my own private practice. I work with individuals
Speaker 2: across a range of dimensions, not just complex trauma, but
Speaker 2: with relationships, stress work, stress, depression, anxiety, and I also
Speaker 2: work with couples and I really love that work as well.
Speaker 2: Just getting back to the whys, right, everybody in this
Speaker 2: relationship has a why for what they're doing, and can
Speaker 2: you see your partners why? I love that work. So
Speaker 2: that's who I'm working with these.
Speaker 1: Days, all right, And we'll have links for all your
Speaker 1: stuff up here at the show notes page at the
Speaker 1: Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. So good all right, Rachel,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for taking to take care all right,