WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.879 --> 00:00:06.040 What do you got three new potato piles, mister potato bird, 2 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:10.080 mister potato fish, and mister potato bugs. That's a funny 3 00:00:10.119 --> 00:00:14.439 potato bugading me and Jahn. That's a nice potato fish. 4 00:00:14.919 --> 00:00:15.839 Follow caw. 5 00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:20.160 I like your potato bird doings that simple? Let's see him, 6 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:25.519 mister potato birds, mister potato but mister vocato bet mister 7 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:27.160 potato head and his pals. 8 00:00:27.399 --> 00:00:42.000 Ha ha ha. 9 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:47.840 Welcome to Amusing Jews, where we celebrate Jewish contributors and 10 00:00:47.880 --> 00:00:52.079 contributions to American popular culture. I'm Jonathan Friedman and I'm 11 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:56.560 Jelly Angelfield producer engineer Mike Tomran is working somewhere behind 12 00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:59.240 the scenes. Amusing Jews is a project of a Dot 13 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:02.960 Caverine Cargation for Humanistic Judaism, the Jewish Museum of the 14 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:06.799 American West, and Atheist United Studios. Hey, Joey. 15 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:08.040 Some of the most. 16 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:10.879 Important names to me growing up didn't belong to people, 17 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:16.439 but to toy companies, names like Hasbro, Mattel Kinner, Toy Biz, 18 00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:19.920 and Galoob. Unknown to me at the time, these toy 19 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:23.560 companies and many others were founded by Jews. We're happy 20 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:27.280 to chat with Michael Kimmel, the Sunny Distinguished Professor Emeritus 21 00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:31.439 of Sociology and Jedder Studies at Stonybrook University, whose latest 22 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:34.840 book is Playmakers, The Jewish Entrepreneurs who created the toy 23 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:38.840 industry in America. Michael, welcome to Amusing Jews. 24 00:01:39.319 --> 00:01:41.359 Well, nice to be with you guys. Thanks. 25 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.920 You're a sociologist with expertise in men and masculinities? What 26 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:47.319 led you to write about toys? 27 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:53.480 Retirement? For one thing? So I'm professor emeritis and in 28 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:58.200 twenty twenty I retired and COVID hit, and I've started 29 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:03.879 thinking like what's my next writing project? And and all girl. 30 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:04.159 All. 31 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.200 During my childhood there was a photograph on my piano 32 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.319 at home, and it was a photograph of an older 33 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:14.159 man with a very well known child actress on his 34 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:17.840 on sitting on his knee. Now I knew, and everybody 35 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:20.800 knows who Shirley Temple is, but I had, you know, 36 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:23.199 I didn't really know who the guy who's on whose 37 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:26.840 lap she was sitting was was. And my mom told 38 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:31.560 me that he was Mars mcdum, and he was he 39 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:35.400 was himself a famous man, and I thought, okay, I 40 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:38.280 didn't know anything about it. So here I am sitting there, going, 41 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:40.120 what am I going to write my next project about it? 42 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:42.639 I said, maybe I'll write about him. He has a 43 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:47.240 really interesting story. So I began to dig found out 44 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:50.719 some more of his story, and so and so that 45 00:02:50.919 --> 00:02:53.680 was the beginning of the book was simply, I'm going 46 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:55.960 to tell my family story. It's going to be about 47 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:59.159 one hundred pages long, and I'm going to basically find 48 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:01.639 out everything I can about where he grew up in 49 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:04.919 the in you know, in in uh well, in the 50 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:08.960 Minsk district of what's now Belarus, how he made it 51 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:11.479 to the US, what he you know, what he did, 52 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:13.919 and and and that'll be it. It'll be a short 53 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:18.520 family story. Uh And then I sort of plunged in 54 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:20.800 and was instantly way over my head. 55 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:22.919 Well, of course his story has a lot to do 56 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:24.639 with the Teddy Bear, if you want to tell us 57 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:25.120 about that. 58 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:28.000 So Mars's story, he was a younger brother. His older 59 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:31.000 brother Harris, was taking over the you know, the the 60 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:34.639 the family farm in in in the schedtle that they 61 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:39.919 lived in, and and so Mars was prime for the 62 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:45.639 Russian army. So his family staged a mock funeral, declared 63 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:48.840 that he had died of typhus, and they staged a 64 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:53.240 mock funeral, buried a coffin filled with rocks, and he 65 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:55.919 quietly slipped over the border, ended up as so many 66 00:03:55.960 --> 00:04:01.280 did in Vilnius. My great grandfather, uh how Trus, my 67 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:05.039 great great uncle Marris and his wife Rose, all came 68 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:09.879 to the US around the same time, ended up in 69 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:17.480 Castle Garden. In about eighteen ninety two ninety three, Mars 70 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:21.600 and Rose his wife opened a candy store in the 71 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:24.279 bedsince the I wasit neighborhood in Brooklyn, the candy store 72 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:28.759 was a very important neighborhood institution, sort of think of 73 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:31.920 the barbershop in the black community in the nineteen sixties 74 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:36.279 or so. It was the center of social life. Everybody 75 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:38.720 hung out there. It used to be. By nineteen hundred 76 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:41.639 it was probably the only place around that had a telephone. 77 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:44.120 So if you got a telephone call, people would go 78 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:47.439 to your apartment or your tenement knock on your doors 79 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:49.240 that you have a phone call. You go down, you 80 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:52.279 go to the candy store and pick up the phone. Okay, so, 81 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:55.079 and the candy store also was the place where you 82 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:59.079 bought newspapers. Morris being having that a failed rabbinical student 83 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:02.480 read them all, and in one day in nineteen oh two, 84 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:05.920 he was reading the newspapers and he saw a cartoon 85 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:09.959 that showed Theodore Roosevelt standing there with a gun and 86 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:13.279 in the background was somebody holding a little bear cub. 87 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:15.920 And the story was that Roosevelt had been in the 88 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:20.240 South adjudigating a boundary dispute between Louisiana and Mississippi, and 89 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:22.360 afterwards he was tired and he said, I'm gonna go 90 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:25.959 bear hunting in Mississippi. So he goes bear hunting and 91 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:29.920 after a week they find nothing, no bears, and he's grumpy. 92 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.399 So finally they find this little old strike to be bear. 93 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:37.279 They grab it, the dog's corner it. They tie it 94 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:40.439 to a tree and they say, come on, tr you 95 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:42.160 can shoot this bear. He takes one look at the 96 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:45.160 bear and says, I'm not killing that bear now. For 97 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:49.720 some reason, along on this trip was Clifford Berryman. Clifford 98 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:53.839 Berryman was a cartoonist, the daily cartoonist for the Washington Post, 99 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:57.279 and he drew this cartoon of Theodre Roosevelt refusing to 100 00:05:57.319 --> 00:06:00.079 shoot the bear. And for some unknown reason, I have 101 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:05.399 no idea why Marris thought this was adorable. He said, 102 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:09.800 the czar was never so nice, and and so he 103 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:13.120 decided that, uh that So he said to Rose, hey, 104 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:15.439 you know, let's go. Let's go to the basement, put 105 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:18.959 together some scraps and material, and let's make a little, 106 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:22.600 you know, a little replica of this bear that t 107 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:24.879 R had refused to kill. They put it in the 108 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:28.639 window of the candy store. Fine, everything was going fine, 109 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.040 and people came by and said, that's really cool. What 110 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:33.240 is that? They said, well, you know the story they 111 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:36.480 were at here of Theodore Roosevelt. They said, I want one, 112 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:40.279 and suddenly they began to everybody wanted them. So so 113 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:44.240 apparently now this is that's that part we know is true. 114 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:47.560 What we don't know is the next part, which is 115 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:51.319 kind of family myth. Mars and Rose called it Teddy's 116 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:55.519 Bear and wrote to Roosevelt and said, hey, we'd like 117 00:06:55.600 --> 00:06:58.360 to make these, and we'd like to use your name. Said, okay, 118 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:02.160 if we call it Teddy's Bear. And Roosevelt apparently said, 119 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:05.000 and this is the myth, marcause this letter has never 120 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:09.319 been found, but apparently he wrote back on White House stationary, 121 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:11.720 I have no idea if my name would be of 122 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:15.279 any value in the bear business, but you're welcome to 123 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.199 use it. And that's the origin of the Teddy Bear. 124 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:21.600 That's how Teddy Bear started was my great great uncle 125 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:24.920 Mars and his wife Rose Micdum in a candy store 126 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:27.360 in Bedford Stuyvesant in Brooklyn when you asked me, like, 127 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:29.800 why do you write this book? Okay, that's as far 128 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:33.480 as I got. And I thought, and if you ever 129 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:36.319 ever tried to, like done research or try to write 130 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:39.160 a book, one of the things that happens is you 131 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:42.079 reach a point where you say, Okay, I'm at the 132 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:45.399 end of my knowledge here. I don't know anything more. 133 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:48.399 And yet there was a question that I was facing, 134 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:52.000 which is what else was going on in toyland? What 135 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:55.720 are the other toy companies? As if I had not 136 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:58.759 asked that question, you would not have the book. I 137 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:01.160 asked the question, and I said, okay, let me find out. 138 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:05.240 How come there's no history. It's the American toy industry, right. 139 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:08.319 So I started to look and it turned out that 140 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:12.360 all but one of the major toy companies and at 141 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:15.639 the turn of the twentieth century were founded by first 142 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.800 generation Jews. Now, for you guys, I just want to 143 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.959 be clear I used the term first generation to refer 144 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:26.639 to those who were born the first generation born ear 145 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:33.759 born of immigrant parents, very poor lower East side tenements, 146 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:40.200 you know, had nothing, but they had this. They had 147 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:42.559 these ideas about what they could do and what niche 148 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:45.200 they could fill, and that's what they did. So I'm talking, 149 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:49.559 for example, about the Hasbro the Hassenfeld brothers who land, 150 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:54.399 who came first to Rhode Island and made bags out 151 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:58.639 of scrap material. Then they made doctor kits, and eventually 152 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:02.879 their first toy was potato Head Mattel, which grew up 153 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:06.519 where you guys live, which really was founded in the 154 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:10.600 post war Europe to take advantage of the exploding plastics industry. 155 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:12.960 But at the turn of the century, all the doll 156 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:17.559 companies Aaron B F and B, Louis Marx, Lionel Trains, 157 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:22.919 every single one of them from Madame Alexander Dolls, all 158 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:26.720 of them were founded by first generation Jews. So I 159 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:30.200 thought to myself, this is a story I never read. 160 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:33.759 I bet I now, I so, okay, I want to 161 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:36.360 now I want to find out about it. So that's 162 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:38.039 what that's that's how the book started. 163 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:40.879 I think some of you're alluding to and why there 164 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:45.320 may be is this lacuna in the history of Jews, 165 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:49.039 is that, just like comic books, took a long time 166 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:51.759 for that history to be written. And now it's fairly 167 00:09:51.799 --> 00:09:58.240 well known. You know, toys generally speaking, are considered disposable, 168 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:00.840 especially from a historian's PERSPECTI I who look for more 169 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:05.039 serious things. And the whole idea of like looking at 170 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:09.200 material culture of a more commercial or a more you know, 171 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:15.120 mass produced perspective is fairly new. And your book is 172 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:19.879 is a great you know, I hope first study, because 173 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:22.879 this should be an entire field as far as I'm concerned. 174 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:26.200 It was also that it wasn't until fairly recently that 175 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:29.960 historians have even begun to think about childhood and history 176 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:35.360 and childhood as having a history, and you know what 177 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:39.279 childhood was like? And you know, I think that what 178 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:42.879 these what these first generation Jews did was they basically 179 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:47.519 furnished it. They basically created the material culture for children. 180 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:51.679 But it wasn't until even like the nineteen seventies that 181 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:56.000 really in the US there are histories of childhood. And 182 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:58.360 when you do histories of childhood, you have two things. 183 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:02.279 You have to deal with, how children could, what children consumed, 184 00:11:02.879 --> 00:11:07.519 and how it was sold to them, and so I 185 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.000 feel like that was there was a big gap. 186 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:15.240 Mister Potato had coming from Hasbro. He always was pretty Jewish. 187 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:17.799 Saying that is really interesting because you know, if you 188 00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:21.120 lived in Europe, the story of Morris mcdim and the 189 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:23.320 Ideal Toy Company and the teddy Bear would be a 190 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:27.159 completely different story. People in Europe believe that the Steife 191 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:31.320 Company invented the teddy bear because they were already a 192 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.799 well known to Most toys in nineteen hundred in the 193 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:40.320 United States were either handmade, homemade rag dolls and little 194 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:44.720 wooden toys and stuff full toys or imported from Germany. 195 00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:49.639 Germany was the center for the entire toy industry in 196 00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:54.240 the Western world, and so so you would hear that 197 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:59.080 Stiff invented the teddy bear, although Morris seems to have 198 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:02.679 invented it a year or two earlier. But Steife had 199 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:06.000 all the marketing muscle in the beginning, so they had 200 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:09.360 the distribution. So I credit them. They made a great 201 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:12.080 teddy bear. But if you look at the difference, there's 202 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:15.240 a picture in the book of the Steife teddy Bear 203 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:19.960 and the Victim teddy Bear, and it's impossible to look 204 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:21.919 at the two of them go. You know, the Steiffe 205 00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:25.240 bear is very is standing, you know, head up like this, 206 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:29.159 and the Teddy bear that's in the Smithsonian, the ideal 207 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:32.679 teddy bear. He's sort of slumpy, he's sort of sitting. 208 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:35.799 He has a frown, and you think, you know, he 209 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:37.440 looks Jewish. 210 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:41.600 Enjoying the show, Click like and subscribe. Although your book 211 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:45.519 mostly centers on Eastern European Jewish immigrants, there's also a 212 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:48.879 part of it that's about the department stores and their 213 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:51.679 part in the popularization of toys. Can you tell us 214 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:52.440 a little bit about that? 215 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:56.679 Sure, you know, there's a big debate about how the 216 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:01.879 German Jews received the Eastern European in Yiddish Jews. On 217 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:04.679 the one hand, the German Jews who came in the 218 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:07.519 middle of the nineteenth century were middle class and upper 219 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:11.159 middle class. They were quite prosperous. They assimilated very quickly. 220 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:16.120 And then in the eighteen starting in the mid eighteen eighties, 221 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:21.320 suddenly these two point five million of these Yiddish speaking 222 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:26.200 any Lists or Steatle Jews arrived and a large number 223 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:29.039 of the German Jews were We're not them, no, no, 224 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:33.200 they're like Jews, We're Americans, and you know, they wanted 225 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:36.639 nothing to do with them, and they wrote these kind 226 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:43.080 of disgusting critiques of stettle of tenement life because they 227 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:47.240 wanted to distance themselves. There were many other German Jews 228 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:51.759 who founded all the Hebrew charities that as people streamed 229 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:55.320 off of these frigates, said you have any skills, here, 230 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.360 we have a place for you. Here, you have any money, 231 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:00.440 we can we can find you a bed here, any relatives. 232 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:04.639 So there was all of the Jewish charities in the 233 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:07.159 at the turn of the century were found were founded 234 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.919 by the German Jews. And that's really those Eber charities 235 00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:15.120 is really the origin of the whole field of social 236 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:18.919 work in New York. In the nineteen tens and twenties. 237 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:24.279 At the same time, many of those German Jews founded 238 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.480 the all of I mean almost all of the premiere 239 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:32.240 department stores in America. And I'm not just talking about 240 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:38.279 like Bloomingdale's or Toys r Us or Fao Schwartz, but 241 00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:42.320 within five years of its founding, Macy's and I Magnen 242 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:46.600 and Abraham and Strauss and Berghoff, Goodman and Gimbals. So 243 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:51.559 what these these Jewish toymakers had was was they had 244 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:55.159 their relatives and friends as the sales force. But they 245 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:59.039 had a place to sell. And once that, once that 246 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:03.120 you know, kind of manufacturing infrastructure was in place, they 247 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:06.559 had they they had a pathway to you know, the 248 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.440 kind of upward mobility that they were seeking. I mean, 249 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:11.559 in a way, I guess you guys you know, will 250 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:14.200 appreciate this, of course. I mean, the whole book is 251 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:18.039 really an assimilationist story. These poor people come off the 252 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.720 boat and they're thinking where do we fit in? Like, 253 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:23.360 how can we make it in this place? And they 254 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:26.120 found a niche, They helped each other and and they 255 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:28.639 had an already existing infrastructure. 256 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:31.399 Yeah, it's very similar, like we were saying with comic 257 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:35.759 books or the music or film industries, where you had 258 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:41.600 these outsiders who used a vacant sort of field, something 259 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:46.799 that wasn't attractive to the the elite, and through their 260 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:50.480 contributions to it, created a culture that they themselves could 261 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:50.840 live in. 262 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:51.919 Right. 263 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:54.399 So that's the that's the truest. 264 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:55.039 It's like an. 265 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:58.759 Active assimilation if that makes sense, very very much. 266 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:01.639 But to introduce the comic books, I think you have 267 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:05.000 to add another element to the equation, and that element 268 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:08.080 is of course anti Semitism, because the story of the 269 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:12.120 Jewish comic book artists was they all want they won't 270 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:14.639 want her to be artists and go into advertising. But 271 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:18.159 in the thirties and forties, the advertising business in New 272 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:21.799 York City was very white shoe It was very Protestant. 273 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:25.159 They didn't like Catholics, and they certainly didn't like Jews. 274 00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:28.240 So these guys would show up to the ad agency 275 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:33.120 with their portfolio and the company and the guy interviewing 276 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:36.600 them would say are you Jewish? And guy would say yes, 277 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:38.840 he said, okay, we have our quota of Jews. Sorry, 278 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:43.960 now that quota may have been zero, but so Jews 279 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:46.080 are you know you know that phrase, you know, when 280 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:49.360 life gives you lemons, make lemonade. So Jews are the 281 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:54.159 ultimate lemonade makers. Like, Okay, we can't go into advertising 282 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:57.759 as artists, all right, we'll, you know, we'll start our own. 283 00:16:57.759 --> 00:16:59.799 We'll go to the pulps, we'll start doing it. We'll 284 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:02.480 start doing art there, sort of like the way that 285 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:06.160 in Hollywood, you know, Jews, you know, Jews said you 286 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:08.799 won't let us into your country club. Okay, we'll start 287 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:13.599 our own. So what I'm what I'm trying to say 288 00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:17.519 is you can't understand this story simply by this kind 289 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:20.920 of wide eyed vision and you know, finding a niche. 290 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:24.319 It's also confronting anti Semitism and finding a way around 291 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:24.960 it and through it. 292 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:30.000 Yeah exactly. And those fields were open largely because they 293 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:32.880 were disreputable, and that's where the Jews could go because 294 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:37.039 it wasn't guarded by all the moneyed interests of the day. 295 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:40.119 Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know murder Incorporated. 296 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:43.599 For example, as you mentioned, you connect toys to other 297 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:47.839 child centric industries like the comic books, parenting magazines, and 298 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:51.000 children's literature. Why is this context important? 299 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:54.200 So as I was writing this book, my second question 300 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:56.240 after I did all this stuff about the early toys 301 00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:00.359 was where did they get their ideas for toys? And 302 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:05.559 one place they went was the comic strips. Comic strips, 303 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:09.799 you know, in newspapers were I mean everybody read them. 304 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:12.680 They had millions and millions of readers every and and 305 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:16.279 some of the most famous ones like Joe Peluca drawn 306 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:19.960 by Ham Fisher, a first generation Jew, or Lil Abner, 307 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:23.839 the most famous comic strip of you know, probably of 308 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:28.240 the century before Phenuts was drawn by al Cap, a 309 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:31.559 first generation Jew who actually never set foot in the South. 310 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:36.200 He uh, you know, but so what what I don't 311 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:38.160 know if you ever read Lil Abner as a kid, 312 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:41.839 but I did. And it's Mammy and Pappy yoakum in 313 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:46.799 dog Patch and his rural. Basically it's a seddle in Appalachia. 314 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:52.119 He just transposed the whole thing. So so I'm now. 315 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:56.240 And then of course comic books and the derivatives of 316 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.480 comic books like Mad Magazine and you know, all of 317 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:03.240 those other and the novelties. So all of these are 318 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:09.559 first generation Jews, including this was a big surprise to me. Carousels, 319 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:14.960 the carousel horses and lions in every major amusement park 320 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:18.319 in the country were carved by Jews. They were the 321 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.400 guys who carved you know, in like Central Europe. You 322 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:25.160 know the arcs in the synagogue that as the lions 323 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.960 around the arc. These are the guys they left. They 324 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.039 came here, they needed a job, and some guy very 325 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:35.359 wisely in Coney Island said We're gonna make a carousel, 326 00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:39.480 you know, come work for me. So so even the 327 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:43.440 horses and lions of carousels. And then in the middle 328 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:46.960 of all this I, you know, I stumbled on this list. 329 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:50.759 The near Public Library had a list of one hundred 330 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:56.400 most important children's books of the twentieth century, and forty 331 00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:59.799 two of the authors of those were first generation Jews. 332 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:03.839 I said, well, that's interesting, you know. So then I 333 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:06.599 started looking at the histories of some of those children's books, 334 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:09.759 and they all have these amazing stories, not only you know, 335 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:13.400 I mean the obvious ones like Sendek and Ezra. Jack 336 00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:17.680 Keats's snowy Day Curious George is one of my favorite 337 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:22.240 stories because you know, it's literally but a couple living 338 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:24.599 in Paris. You know, the story of furious Georgia and 339 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:29.400 the Germans are coming through from Belgium, moving down into 340 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:32.599 into France from the set from the north and the east, 341 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:35.480 and the night before they arrived, you know that great 342 00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:39.200 scene of the German troops marching down the Chauncyse. They 343 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:45.920 the night before Marguerite at Margaret and Hans Ryerbach grab 344 00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:49.160 some bicycle parts, put together these bicycles and ride south 345 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:53.160 and west into Spain, eventually to Lisbon and come to 346 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:56.160 the US. And in their backpack is that is the 347 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:02.440 drawing of this crazy impish monk whose name was Fifi, 348 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:05.319 and they get here and they find a publisher of 349 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:09.440 children's books, and the publisher says, let's change fefe, you know, 350 00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:12.960 like and that's how Curious George was born. So in 351 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:16.480 a way, Joey, this is why this is important because 352 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:18.880 when I read these books, when I was reading these 353 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:21.839 books to my kid, I didn't know it had a 354 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:26.400 backstory like this. And I want parents and grandparents to 355 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:31.319 know the backstory of Snowy Day or or you know, 356 00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:34.880 or or Frog and Toader Friends, or all of those 357 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:36.880 books that you had read to you when you were 358 00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:37.480 a little kid. 359 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:42.440 They have these backstories, including Eloise. For God's sake, I 360 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:47.200 mean Eloise, your boys. So you probably didn't read Eloise 361 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:47.799 when you were a kid. 362 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:51.079 But Eloise lives on the tip on the tippity top 363 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:55.799 floor of the Plaza Hotel, right, and she's as waspy 364 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:58.079 as they can be. And you had no idea that 365 00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:01.559 Kay Thompson was a first generation Jewet from Saint Louis. 366 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:05.480 So I wanted to give the backstory. I wanted you 367 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:08.400 to know. I wanted people to know there's a story 368 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:11.240 behind this story that you're reading. And it's a really 369 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:12.720 moving one, as you're. 370 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:16.359 Saying it's all connected, because part of what you convey 371 00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:19.279 in the book is that all of these things were basically, 372 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:22.759 in one way or another, connected to the invention of 373 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:28.799 childhood as a phenomenon that wasn't necessarily recognized before all 374 00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:32.000 of these you know, things for children were being created. 375 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:36.559 Why here, why these Jews and why at that time? 376 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.640 And it turns out that they happened to arrive at 377 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.920 the turn of the twentieth century, at the very moment 378 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:48.640 that progressive idea. Progressivism was beginning to take hold and 379 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:52.039 was beginning to articulate a new idea of childhood in 380 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:55.839 the first place, ending child labor laws for example, a 381 00:22:55.920 --> 00:23:02.319 campaign that lasted for quite some time, compulsory school. All 382 00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:07.839 of these forces were already moving to demarket. In nineteen 383 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.880 oh four, the psychologist G. Stanley Hall said, you know, 384 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:14.440 there's a if you know, kids would grow up and 385 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:17.400 after primary school they go to work on the farm, 386 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:19.279 they go to work in a factory, they go to 387 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:21.759 work in a coma. And he said, you know, kids 388 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:26.319 are like are living longer, extending that period before work. 389 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:30.960 And he said that the time between primary school and 390 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:34.480 the end of high school was what he called Adolescents. 391 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:38.119 Nineteen oh four, he wrote this sixteen hundred page book 392 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:44.119 about about this new stage of development between childhood and adulthood. 393 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:48.680 So you can see how it's elongating. So what were 394 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.440 these children going to do if they were in school 395 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:55.880 and not working and they had so part of it 396 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:59.839 was it was good timing. The second thing I think 397 00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:06.480 is they these these poor steadled Jews. You know, somehow 398 00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:10.839 they came to this country with you know, these old 399 00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:15.519 beat up cardboard suitcases held together with string. But they 400 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:20.319 had a different idea of what childhood should be. Moving 401 00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:22.799