Speaker 1: What is a Fellawsiko's I Am Dampa Valley commun at
you with another twenty twenty four to twenty twenty five
MBA look ahead. We're on to the Milwaukee Bucks, which
means it's time to talk to the homie, Ty Wendish,
who covers the Bucks fantastically. I might add over at
the Eurostep Podcast follow him on Twitter at Tywindish. That's
at T I W I N d I s c
H to link to. That will be in the podcast
and YouTube description as well as on screen if you
are watching on YouTube. We're gonna get into all things Bucks.
It's a lot of fun. Make sure you go follow
the Eurostep podcast. That's at Eurostep Podcast at g y
R O s T E P P O D C
s T. They do a great job over there for
covering not just the Bucks but other sports within the region.
Excited to talk with Ty, as we are every year.
So let's get into what is one of the more
and I mean this annoy use this word a lot,
but it's one of the more fascinating teams in the
league heading into next season when you look at the
timeline that they are facing. So here we go, Milwaukee Bucks.
Talk with Tie, and if you haven't already or even
if you have, subscribe across all platforms. I don't know
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link to that' to the podcast and YouTube description. Okay,
that's enough out of me for real this time, let's
get to talking Milwaukee Bucks with Tie Windish of the
Eurostep podcast. Tye, welcome back. It's a look ahead season.
It's the Bucks we had to bring on you. Did
you know because I keep this logged. This is your
fourth year coming back on hard For the look ahead
we have, there's very few because we I think this
is only the sixth year, maybe the fifth that we've
done it. So we have a couple of people that
have made it the half decade route. But you are
you're like right there. You might even I feel you've
definitely been on the pod more than five. Yeahs, this
is your fourth look ahead. How does that feel to
know that?
Speaker 2: It feels great? I feel very old. I'm turning thirty
next year, so that's not the whole thing crap. I know, well,
you know what, you know. What's doing it for me
is I'm around the same age as Yannis, so I
think as Yiannis starts to get to like that thirty two,
and he already gets it some because you know the athleticism.
But people are like, oh, I think he's aging out
of it, right. I can tell that's going to be
brutal for me. That's going to be really tough for me.
And I remember I remember being between him and Jabbari
and I thought, oh, it'll be cool to track Jabari's
career and you know, see it and that obviously unfortunately
it didn't take very long. But but otherwise I feel
good about it outside of the uh, the age question
of it all and how long I've been doing this
damn thing.
Speaker 1: You're still baby. I'm thirty five, and that's been like
a mystery around these parts for some reason, and people
either think I'm much younger or way older. It's never like, oh,
he must be thirty three or thirty five or something.
I will say, covering the league at thirty five and
like having to say like, oh, so and so is
like turning thirty one, Like I feel like such a
fucking hypocrite. Like it's just like, yeah, yeah, they're past
their pride now because they're in their thirties.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like that great meme of like he's defying
all logic heroically playing at thirty four years old. I'm
just like, oh no.
Speaker 1: But the Bucks though, Yeah, brought you on to discuss
these Milwaukee Bucks. I want to start here, What are
your biggest takeaways from I mean, just like everything that
happened with the way that last season unfolded and the
discourse and the perception of the Bucks that's kind of
trickled out after that, Like what do you just make
of it all as we're heading into this new season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was clearly a pretty unmitigated disaster. But the
funny part about that is the Bucks unmitigated disaster scenario
had them like I think a game out of the
two seed and they were still ultimately the three seed.
So one of my takeaways and we just had a
pod with Blocke Journal Sentinel writer Jim Ozowski, who's great,
and his thing was like, I feel like people just
don't really realize they're really good still throughout everything that's happened.
So I think that's my takeaway. I think they messed
up a lot clearly. The coaching higher went about as
poorly as possible. The Dame trade I don't think was
a bad trade by any means. That's, of course, like
a bit of a contentious thing somewhere, mostly because Portland
happened to send Drew to Boston versus anywhere else. But
I think the way it happened was the worst way
for it to happen, Meaning they built a whole team
for Drew Holliday at the point guard, and then three
days before camp with a new head coach, go ahead
and get Dame. He's going through all his personal things
and in injuries as well, which is kind of inescapable
for an older team. But Giannis goes down in March
in March I think, or May or whatever, April I
think it was April, and then doesn't play again. That's
obviously go in the junior season almost no matter what.
But it's like through all of that they've kind of
stuck together. They didn't have like an offseason implosion, nobody
asked out. They mostly kept their core together from last year,
created a few veterans. So I think, actually as disappointing
as it is whenever you lose a prime, honest season
and the first Giannis and Dame season, I do think
given some precedent for some other teams that took a
year to come together, overall, it's hard to not feel
kind of good right like it was all disaster. I
don't feel good. I didn't feel good at any point
during that season, but like now in the offseason, looking
at how they did since then, it's kind of like
they went through a lot. A lot of it was horrible,
but I think I think a lot of it will
help them going forward, outside of just being a year
older at these guys and like medical stuff that maybe
gets better, maybe does, and I think mostly it will,
but you can never really know. But it was certainly
they took their lumpch. That's that's for sure.
Speaker 1: The thing I always come back to with them too,
is I mean, you look at you mentioned the place
in the standings, but their top four guys are on
the court. They blasted opponents it was like, yeah, over
sixteen points per one hundred posessions, and they also played
more than you thought together relative to just like it
felt their season felt very stopped. I think a lot
of that had to do with the transition from Adrian
Griffin to Doc Rivers. We do have another offseason though,
where it seems like they've done good work on the margins,
and we said that last year. And as you mentioned, though,
we did record before the Damian Lillar trade went down.
At the time they built their team, like in the
vein of Drew Holliday is going to be our starting
point guard. Now they know that Damian Miller is going
to be they were able to go through the off
season with it. Do you think that, because we're definitely
guilty of it on this podcast as we I mean,
go back and listen to what we said about Phoenix's
offseason last year with the we do tend to over
romanticize like the impact these minimum guys have. But do
you think that between Delon Wright, Gary Trent Junior, who
is not your typical minimum sid let's make that clear,
and even Torrian Prince, who Lakers fans will claim is
like worse than Dalton connect who hasn't played an NBA
game yet. Do you think that's given the box like
enough perimeter optionality to feel good about their overall death
excuse me depth not death depth relative last.
Speaker 2: Season hopefully no more, no more death. They kind of
did die on the vine last year. Yeah I do.
I really don't think any of the three, certainly not Trent,
but even the other two. To me, I think Right
is the closest none of those guys to me as
a general NBA guy. And maybe this is Bucks bias speaking,
but I would I thought I would have thought maybe
Right could be attainable on a vetman. Going into this offseason,
I put Torrian prints on my like, yeah, fine, player
makes sense as a fit I don't think they could
get him for a VET men. And same for Prince.
And you know, some guys always get squeezed. But I
really did not expect at least those two of the
three to be VET minimum players. Like I think they
did abnormally well. I think some of it was above
their control, right like that. The way the CBA has
evolved and changed and teams have reacted to it, there
just aren't as many salary slots in free agencies. So
if you're not getting extended or signed and trade, signed
and traded, I suppose you're just kind of out of luck.
So a little surprised that Prince shook loose for the Lakers,
like I know, the whole thing, and we don't know
have to do a Lakers thing, but like you know,
some guys opted in a vet minimum player options and
it just messed up their whole summer. That seems like
kind of wild to happen for such a low stakes
things who have occurred. But I think it worked out
for the Bucks just fine. And obviously the Trent thing,
you know, Toronto just going a different direction, still insane
to me that he couldn't have found anything more. But
I think the other part of this, too is an
unforeseen consequence of they lowered the taxpayer mid level. So
I think a lot of these guys, like Trent, it's like, okay,
do I want about three million to play in Milwaukee
for a contender start next to my old friend Damian
Lillard with the Honest team, or like, was it like
five ish million to go? I don't know what other
tax team, right, There's some good options out there, I'm sure,
but some teams don't even spend those things anyway, So
I think I do feel really good about their optionality.
You know, it was funny the order in which the
signings happened, except for the first one is stillun right.
And I was like, okay, good backup point guard if
he's like got to be the starter, though next to Dame,
you don't love that. And then they get prints it's like, Okay,
Prince could probably start. He started for the Lakers. I
know that their fans are very underwhelmed with him, but
we know what he does. He shoots threes at a
solid level, a good clip and a solid rate of
making them, and it is like a movable defensive player
guarded a lot of good players defensively above his station.
But we're talking about Malik Beasley last year, so the
Bucks can can live with that. And then it was
Trent and it was like, Okay, that answers the other questions.
It makes it all look a lot better. So yeah,
I think they did really well all things considered. I
think they've retained a lot of core players, and I
mean still, I still think the reaction has been almost
a little too muted on Gary Trent. I think some
people have acknowledged it, well that to me, it's just
that it's like a seventeen point per game score on
incredible efficiency has racked up steals. He's not a defensive
ace like we wanted, like a Dylan Brooks kind of
player to complement Dame. But I don't think Beggars can
be choosers. And I think just pure talent alone, I
think they're starting five is going to be pretty ridiculous
next season when those five guys are all out there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think also the thing with Trent is
that he'll make a lot of gambles on defense. But
like for the Bucks, who I think they ended up
finishing thirtieth in forcing turnovers last year to have him,
And then if you can put Giannis in like his
best role, like this team might be able to fox
some shit up defensively that you go on the court.
I'm not saying Trent is like a very good defender,
but I think he's serviceable enough. And if you just
want like he could be a Steels merchant, that's fine.
I was gonna ask you, and it seems like you
already answered it. Though Torrian Prince feels like he feels
more of an archetypal need. But I do feel like
Delon Wright is better for what their biggest defensive weakness
was last year. If you had to guess on who
winds up being more important to this team, does the
Trent signing kind of shifted all the way well to
obviously Torrian Prince now? Or is there a chance that
it might be Delon Right?
Speaker 2: There's still a chance, I think if his defense holds
up and if for him his shooting has varied a lot.
I don't even know how much it matters, because you know,
teams are gonna want him to shoot. We'll see. Rohan,
my co host, Rohan Kattie, thinks he could really close.
Like he's big on this idea of just having that
defensive minded guard to play alongside Dame, and I think
there's a lot of reason to think that is true.
I think the reason it could be him, and a
lot of this depends too on like what does this
version of Gary Trent Junior look like? How much can
he buy in a defense? How much can he do
on that end, because if obviously, if it's anywhere close
defensively between him and Right, then Right's probably not closing
very often. I think they would prefer to go bigger,
but maybe not. You know, it all depends if Brook
Lopez can stay in or not. But I think Prince,
I think right could there's more variables. I think in
more scenarios it's probably Prince because the Bucks have always
sent PJ. Tucker left needed that new guy to enable
Yiannis at the five, and so the question becomes like,
can Prince and Middleton? Can they both be three and
a half to add up to seven? Is what I've
put out there, because maybe neither of them is your
traditional stretch four, but can they both be stretched three
and a halfs? Maybe we'll see, but I think that
player is really important. If Prince can contribute to that lineup,
it'll be him. If not that, I could see it
being right as well, but it's probably less likely now
with Trent, but not impossible.
Speaker 1: I get to dictate so much of how these episodes
go that I wanted to include this question to start
things off this year. What is the biggest storyline you'll
be monitoring for this team throughout this coming season?
Speaker 2: Health first? But I'm not even gonna talk about it
because it's not fun. But obviously that's going to be
the number one, the most fun one, and the one
that was worth talking about. It's probably just like Dame,
Chris and the honis together and you mentioned the Bucks
were really good when those three played together, and like
are really good to the point of you'd think, like, okay,
they're probably a contender anyway. But some of the buzz
is like it should be better, and I think it
can be better. I mean, I think if you watch it,
I think you would agree, and a lot of people
have like they weren't all that cohesive at all, especially
the fabled Damiani's pick and roll. They didn't really get
good at it. That the Dame brook pick and roll
was better and Chris Yanni's actions were better because they've
been doing it for a decade. No, no real surprise there,
but all of the focus since Doc really came in
was we need to get this played down, like that's
that's their thing. I think that can separate them from
every other team in the league is you could look
at other teams are deeper, certainly Boston, maybe you can
say other teams have more top end talent. I don't
think there is another action maybe outside of Denver, that
you could be as devastating singularly as a damianis picking role. Like,
I think it should be as unguardable as anything that exists,
especially given they have the personnel around it, right, Cary
Trent on one wing, Chris Middleton on the other, whether
you have another guard, a big whoever, someone in the
dunker spot, it's pretty unguardable. It should be totally impossible
to stop. I mean, their gravity totally shifted to teams
doubling Dame around half court, which Giannis has never seen
anything like this before. The four totally shifted. So really
those two, but I'll throw on Chris as well. I
think they're gonna do something because he's not always just
going to be spacing right. He's a really good player.
But like those three being even better together, I think,
because I think that's what whether the regular season numbers
at the saying better a little worse in terms of
their un court efficiency, if they're gonna win a title,
it's because a close game in the last five minutes
they can just say we're gonna get a really good
look every single time, like we're gonna score every time.
We'll make the stops. Brook and Giannis and Trent and whoever.
We'll figure that out. But we can just be totally
unguardable and get a great shot every time and just win.
So that's what I think their biggest storyline is, is can
those two go from we made it work because we're
so good to Okay, we're actually on all cylinders and
no one can guard this action at all anymore. I
think that's gonna be number one for me.
Speaker 1: Is there like anything that you do that accounts for
why when you look at Damian Lillard's overall fit that
it felt like there were really long pockets of time
where there wasn't enough Dame and Yanni's actions. Was it
just they were using Dame to open up the Middleton
and Yanni's two men game too much, And it's more
about maybe Middleton finding his comfort level within that dynamic
because we did see the points last year, like the
Damon Yanna stuff can be devastated and it should be devastating.
And I know, like it feels like the volume of
it just watchings. I don't have the data on like
how many ball screens each of them are setting for
each other, but it feels like it waxed and waned.
Would that be like the usage of.
Speaker 2: It, Yeah, it did. I think a lot of it
was the coaching change. I think Doc wanted to do
it a lot more, but pretty soon after he was
taken over. Like I think part of it was they
do want to have one of Dame Marianna's out there
all the time, which obviously doesn't preclude you from running
a lot of actions with them together, But they weren't
like staggering them together, which I think makes sense. I
think that's how they should. I don't think you want
to have two top seventy five all time guys and
then have a lot of minutes per game where neither
of them are out there, But so that takes down
the opportunity a little bit. I think the Adrian Griffin
Bucks did it less and they probably waxed and waned more,
and then the Doc Rivers Bucks frankly just had very
little time with the core players together, especially Day Marianna's.
I think they're going to do it a lot more
going forward, at least I hope. I also think part
of it was accommodating Chris. Part of it was like
in the short term, like it looked a lot better
when Chris was running with Giannis and with Dame was
running with Brooke, partially because Dame is used to having
the ball a lot, but more so Giannas is just
not a great screener. It's com and it's gone. And
I think like he did it enough in twenty one
when he screened for Chris a lot and they won
a title with it. It's not what he wants to do, right,
Like necessarily he wants to have the ball create. He
actually has really good pick and roll ball handler numbers,
and I hope because of that we see a little
bit of like the Dame, you know, pick and pop
for you honest, which I think also can be pretty devastating.
So I think it's been kind of a process that way.
I don't know exactly why. I mean, I think even
with all those things, they should have still done it more,
both under Griffin and Doc and I guess, you know,
the two Games of Prunty or however many it was
two weeks of Prunty. But yeah, I don't know if
there's a great answer, but I certainly think the emphasis
is there now and everything Doc Rivers says is like, yeah,
that's the play. We need to have that, right, Like
we need to be better at that, So I'd be
pretty surprised next season if we didn't see a whole
lot more at least actions with both of them. It
doesn't have to be like, of course, the same pick
and roll every time, but I certainly hope we see
more of that.
Speaker 1: I thought. What was also interesting about the Dame fit
is even when it seems to make so much sense immediately,
when you look at the time of year the trade
was made, it's like limited time for him to get
used to his new surroundings, and then like you're thrown
into just the beginning of the like the beginning of
the season process. Basically, it probably takes longer time in
hash out chemistry and in general, with the exception of
like the Golden State the Kevin Durant era Golden State Warriors,
even though that didn't perfectly click all the time, like
it seldom just works to the point that, oh, you
should pick these people to win a title, and I
kind of I don't want necessarily give the Bucks an
entire pass, but I looked at it as that's like
they should be more dangerous this year. Now, with that said,
what should we be lazy bring in on to see
from Damian Loward this year. Is it really just I
very much harped to in a good way, like this
dude shot like thirty three percent on spot of threes
last year as not gonna have even if you think
he's getting older. There's no way in hell that happens again.
Like is that one of the features that were like okay,
like that's what we need to look at, or is
there something else that we should really be laser focused
on with the Dame fit.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's probably just the effectiveness. I think
he got to a point where I liked the way
he played. I think sometimes he could have been a
little more aggressive. I think the combination was he really,
to his credit, really wanted to not be like, hey,
I'm Dame. Motherfuckers, like give me the ball every possession.
Like he was very I would say gracious to Giannis
of course, but also like like he go every time
this topic came up and he would talk about it'd
be like, you guys, forget about Chris Middleton, Like Chris
Middleton is awesome, Like I'm figuring out how to work
with Giannis and with Chris Middleston and with Brook Lopez,
like he really wanted to be like, you know, I'm
the new guy here. You guys have won a title.
I've never done that, Like I want to fit in.
And I think over the course of the year, the
team and the honest and extent were like, hey, you
got to be dame though, like all that's all very nice.
We appreciate where you're coming from, like shoot the ball
from the logo a bunch of times. And I think again,
like Giannis had his most efficienc season ever, it kind
of worked out that way anyway, but it can be
a lot better. I think his being a little more aggressive,
although I do think I underrated not watching him every day.
He is more of a true point guard than I
think I realized. He really likes to and is very
good at creating for others as well, which probably sounds stupid,
but I think the level to which he does it,
Like I thought of him as more of a shooter
than a creator, he is. He likes to be both.
He wants to be a true point guard. He is
a true point guard, so I won't I don't think
he's going to score like thirty five again by any means,
but being more aggressive, but just more efficient. I will
say the other things he's talked about are you know,
he didn't get his usual off season routine in last
year because he had to pass the physical. He knew
he was getting traded, but he didn't get traded for
a long time, and he cited that a lot of times.
And in this piece that was just last week from
one of the Beat reporters who was out there, said like,
I feel great, and he's very much like anyone who's
running me off is gonna, you know, look silly, like well,
we're gonna go out there and prove it, like him
as a player, the Bucks as a team, and I think,
you know, it was going through like moving for the
first time, was going through what became kind of a
publicized divorce at the time, being away from his family
and from Portland for the first time. So I think
there's just an added level of comfort on and off
court that he thinks for sure, of course as a
professional player, and I think as an analyst biased of like, yeah,
he's gonna look I think quite a bit better last year. Also,
like by the playoffs, he was able to just turn
it on and be that thirty five point per game guy.
So I think that was helpful, even only in like
three games, but of seeing like you can still do it,
Like it's not just gone. He's not just switch flipped
old Like I don't think it's that simple.
Speaker 1: And also it's to your point, some of his best
moments last year were without Yiannis, and so it's like
a matter of him finding not necessarily a perfect analog
for that player with Gannest, but like when to be
that guy more often with you, honest, or like how
to figure out how to fit that into the larger
context of the Yannis Chris Brook Lopez dynamic. And I'm
so fascinated to see how that clicks, because again we
are sitting here nitpicking and like they were still just
rampaging over opponent opponents when they were on the court together,
and so like that's just like, oh, well, what does
this look like if it's fully clicking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the big question. I think that's like number one,
and it's it's really tantalizing, and I think they've got
good personnel around them to make the most of it.
I almost wonder like there's going to be some interesting
questions of like who takes less shots? Bobby Portis won't,
I'll tell you that much, which is an interesting thing.
But they have a lot of a lot of skilled
offensive players, which is a good thing. And we know
a lot of them will miss time throughout the season,
so that'll help. But it's gonna be interesting kind of
figuring out, like where do these shots break down, Like
who is losing more, who's maintaining, et cetera.
Speaker 1: I thought Jannis did a good job reorient his game
last year to try and adapt to Dame. When you
look at you know, fewer of his shots were going unassisted.
It felt like he was more complimentary. He cut out
a lot of just like the perimeter stuff, like you
said he had his most efficient season. Was that like
a conscious decision by him? And like how you also
did mention him like maybe he doesn't necessarily love a
lot of the stuff that you would typically do alongside
the peak version of Dame. Like what just goes into
all that? Do we expect sort of this progression, evolution,
whatever you want to call it, transition to continue?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think so. I mean we'll see if I
don't know if it's going to be like a straight
linear line of like now he's going to shoot seventy
percent from the field, maybe, but probably not. I think
it was almost by default, I really do, because I
think you look at the way defenses, you know, approached
the floor against the Bucks when they were healthy, and
the Honest has just never seen single coverage like that
since he's become this level of player since twenty seventeen,
eighteen whatever. It is like he's if you're one on
one with the Honest, unless you have one of we'll say,
like maybe ten guys in the league, like you're probably
just losing at that point, Like you just can't. You
have to just follow and hope he misses one or two,
which you know happens frequently enough unfortunately for you, Honest
at this point. But and that was like all the time.
I mean, if you're stending two to the ball, uh,
you know, it's a four on three or four on
four at best. And that's just like Giannis has never
worked in that kind of space before. So I think
it could be even better because it was almost like
he was benefiting more indirectly from the Dame partnership. There
wasn't as much of like, oh, I'm like I'm right
at the rim and I can just dunk. It would
be like, Okay, now I'm four on three and I
can just beat one guy, but kind of in like
the half open floor right in the short role, I'll
just get around or get through this one guy and score.
I think it can be even easier a lot of
these possessions. But I think Giannis has like always been
a willing playmaker. He's never he's never like the Yokic
kind of passer. I think he's probably a better passer
than people think, especially.
Speaker 1: A much better passer than people think is I would
go far.
Speaker 2: But it's not in the same way. He's not necessarily
like throwing guys open as much. But it's like he
can do things physically that I don't know if any
other player can do. Especially you see him on the baseline.
He will like wrap and be like it feels like
ten feet out of bounds and just throw a dime
from that angle to a wide open shooter. And I
think they've built an offense in a way that he's
gotten very comfortable with where to put that ball and
you know where to know where shooters will be. So
I think it was almost like by default. He had
a really good season from that perspective. I think he
was able to cut out a lot of shots he
probably doesn't even want to take that much, you know,
the pull ups and everything he always does some like
he's always there's always this like maybe this is the
year he figures it out and then he's just like
the consensus best player in the world again and truly
truly unguardable. But I think it was just like things
were just easier for him than they've ever been, and
I think they can even get a little bit more easy,
which you know, is a pretty exciting bucks thought to have.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting too because of the way he played
last year, and so when I'm doing the outlines for
this year, I'm obviously seeing what we talk about last year.
We talked about like how can Yannis age more gracefully
just because of I don't want to use the word reliant,
but how much a weapon his athleticism is. You look
at last year athletic as hell. He's still there, but
like that's a version of Yanni's where it's like, oh,
like that's what he could look like into his mid
thirties and just still be dominant.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, And I think that there's still probably more
of just like I don't even care about the threes anymore,
the elbow jumper, and like the elbow post ups or
the big ones for me, And we got to see
a little bit of it in the Olympics, and I
think we saw a little bit of it last year,
but like a little bit more of just not even
like fadeaway jumpers, but just like post hooks, stuff like
that where I think again, like if he's in a mismatch,
he can get his two points, but probably not work
as hard, and that's gonna be really key the older
he gets as well. So I like to see even
a little bit more of that. But yeah, just generally
he's still like he controls his movements so well, he
uses the glass so well when he's going at the rim,
that any little advantage made his life a whole lot easier.
Speaker 1: I wonder if he could take something I did not
plan on mentioning this until you said something, but like
could take something out of Christaps Porzingis's book where it's like, Okay,
you might be catching it with your back to the basket,
but like pivot around and just shoot over dudes, like
you don't have to like fade away or you're just
so freaking tall.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're just like just be taller. I mean I
think might have like four inches on him still, but yeah,
Giannis is big enough that he should be able to
do like just literally just like look at the backboard
and just like bounce it off of there. Man, no
one can do anything that. If they put a six
y six guy on you to draw charge, he literally
can do nothing about that. Yannis, What do.
Speaker 1: We make of the brook Lopez murmur rings? Is this
just dude is older headed the final year of his contract.
The Bucks did underachieve relative expectations last year, so this
is typical due diligence, or is there something there? Like
I personally just based off Giannis's best defensive role and
like how good brook Lopez still, Like I just find
the idea of it kind of bonkers. But again I'm
a million feet removed from the situation, so this is like,
this is so stupid. This might have been the question
that I'm most excited to ask you about because I
don't understand. Like again, it's not they're not super loud,
but like the murmuring on Brooklyn, I just don't understand
it from the Bucks' perspective.
Speaker 2: We want brook Lopez to retire here right, like very clearly,
like we we don't want to trade brook Lopez. This
is after all the murmurings and everything. So I think
I think he's not been traded because he is so
good and he plays such an important role, and it's
a role they have nothing else for, and they really
haven't at all. They've had backup centers. They tried, like
like the Drop and Bender like four years ago, like
they've tried. They're like, can we find the next one?
You know what I mean, Like, here's a big guy
you can shoot, like maybe we can develop him. No
one's been close, No one's been in the same stratosphere,
and there's not that many guys in the league out
there who are I think part of it was I
think other teams are interested because it is it is
a rare and very valuable archetype. I think he's expiring,
so it's always going to be a conversation. But I
think they ultimately didn't and have never pulled the trigger
because it is like, I mean, this isn't we don't
have to infer Giannis has said, you know, brook Lopez
has a ton I don't want to do that, like
the Who's out that one year when he had the
back surgery. Gianna's was like this sucks, Like brook please
come back, like very plainly, like I don't like doing this,
Like this is really hard. Our team misses him a lot.
We have DeMarcus Cousins out there at the five like
a fun Little Bucks era, but you know, not good
for the old defense by any means. So I think
it's mostly it's it's like, you know, they don't they
only have so many assets. So if you want to
get in a conversation like if we thought, you know,
could they trade him for someone like and I'm not
saying one for one before people get mad, they will anyway,
like is there a deal where they get Alugenz dort if? Okay?
See is like, you know, I didn't shoot much in
the playoffs, we got rid of Giddy, we have Caruso,
now maybe we don't need him. Then of course they
go and sign on Isaiah Hartenstein's He's like, that's not happening.
Houston loves Hi. Would they trade Dylan Brooks for him
in some sort of deal. We're again, let's just get
this defensive, all defense level guy to stick next to
Dame and be like you take every hard assignment and
let your honest rome, and you know, we'll figure out
a center. We'll just get some athletic center. Makes our
spacing different. If we can survive without Brook Lopez is spacing,
we just need a rim protector. But then of course
it's like, you know, maybe that makes sense. Then Gary
Trent Junior walks in the door and it's like, okay,
well the two guard hole is pretty much gone. It's
not ideal, but again you're not You're not dying for
one of those. And it's easy in theory, I think,
to say, we'll just sign one of those rim protectors.
We'll just go get one of those guys. But it's
like who you looked at the top free agent centers
and it was like Valentunists maybe would a fit is
really not that athletic either, but was way out of
their price range, and I think went too cheap but
was still way out of the Bucks price range. And
it's like Daniel Tice. I like Daniel Tye a good backup.
If you're starting Daniel Tys, you're not feeling great. I
don't think the Pelicans are shot Pels fans. I don't
think they are. I think they would like Brook Lopez too,
to be honest. So it's really like it's kind of
it's always kind of been like this weird situation because
he's been old for a while, right, Like we would
love a younger center we have and have never really
had an opportunity to get one. And I think they
can't really sign a good backup because when they're all healthy,
the guy doesn't play Like they had Robin Lopez, they
just got rid of him. They had Serge Ibaka, he
asked out because there was just no minutes when they
have Brooke, Giannis and Bobby that's all the five minutes
between those three players, and they never have a good
draft pick, like skilled seven footers just go too early. Right,
Like we thought they might be able to get kell
el Ware, So maybe they draft him and either keep
Brook to mentor him, or then they finally move Brooke.
He goes like fourteen. It wasn't even close. So I
just think they've always wanted him to be a little
more redundant and they just they haven't been able to.
He's just too valuable, so they just keep paying him
and maybe they dangle in, but there's not really a
move out there that makes sense, and so here we
are Brook Lopez still a Buck and maybe we see
I would love my personal like what I'm trying to
manifest as a Horford extent now, but Brooke might be
too valuable to take that at this point. Like I
still think there's hunger around the league for him, so
it's kind of complicated. I think they would like to
have options there and they just don't have any. So
it's like, we'll just stick with this all defensive level
rim protector. I guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It almost feels like if you were going to
trade Lopez, you need to get you skew towards a
big who either stretches the floor or protects the rim,
and then you're hopefully getting like an athletic or disruptive
perimeter player. So like you're trading one for two.
Speaker 2: And like, yeah, there's not one.
Speaker 1: There's definitely not one team out there that like meets that,
like I thought about a little bit, but there would
still need to be a third team like Portland if
you believed r W three was healthy. And then it's
like do you like Matis s Thible, Like no, that
doesn't do it, so then you need to rope into
third team. And also Portland's not gonna want but they
have eighty bigs already.
Speaker 2: They have so many centers. And there was like some
talk because like Bobby's been a trade guy. We talked
about a lot too, but like so it's like, would
you do Bobby Ports for Robert Williams the third I
just don't know if you can, if you're the Bucks
in this spot with this many injury liabilities already being
like the guy who played like fifteen games last season
or three games last season and has played fifteen, Like,
I just don't think you can. I don't. I mean,
if it was like a vet minimum, if he's like available,
then for sure, right there's no real town side, but
having to give up like a core player, that's really tough. Also,
Matista Table not a big Doc Rivers fan, so I
always have to mention that I don't think that's gonna
happen for multiple reasons.
Speaker 1: Also, I just don't think he's good enough. Like, yeah,
I will say I probably would make the Portois for
r W three. I would roll the dice on just
the Bobby Sports's contract coming up. However, I only would
do that if like brook Lopez is not on the
Bucks because as you already outlaid like your backup five,
like you could you probably could play r W three
and brook Lopez together, really wanted to because RB three
can be like he can guard in space, have Brooke
protect the rim, and then you flip it on offense,
like have brook spot up. But like you just said,
your backup center is not going to play a ton
and you know Bobby Portis can play in different configurations
with Milwaukee's front court.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could play any configuration offensively and none of
them defensively. But they find a way.
Speaker 1: Chris Middleton coming off by one get one ankle surgery apparently, Yeah,
he's got this weird trend of just like gets injured,
takes a while to ramp up, and then like is
molten just in time for them to see their playoff
hopes dashed early?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: How what's the level of concern here with that trend?
And just like now these ankle surgeries and where this
team is, like if you had to rate it on
a scale of one to ten, like, what is the
level of concern for Chris Middleton's I guess it's like sustainability. Yeah,
the durability, whatever you want to frame it as.
Speaker 2: I'd probably say like a three or four for his overall.
I still do trust him that when they really need him,
he is going to be there. And just to the
topic of the ramp up, it wasn't that's not what
he needed to like get on the court. Initially. That
was the Bucks medical staff trying to make him as
sustainable as possible, and I would say, frankly, it worked,
and some people will laugh at that. Obviously he did
miss time, but it was like two different times during
the season, like someone just landed, like someone ended up
under him, under his leg when he was jumping, and
he you know, turned an ankle. Like I don't think
I think calling him he's been prone to injuries, but
I don't think it's like, you know, it's not like
he you know, jogs and just breaks down like Kevin
Durant's under him on a jumper. And then I think
it was he went up for a layup against Indiana
and came down on Siakam or coming up the court
or something and it's like turns an ankle and you
could see it happen. He tries to play through both.
He does play through the Pacers one, and then just
as you know, gets the scopes this offseason, So I
think the overall trend to me is more concerning than
where he's at right now. I actually think maybe they'll
be careful with him coming into the season, but I
would expect a lesser ramp up than last year, just
because he was seen in Summer League getting around just
fine after the ankle procedures, So I think it was
kind of more just like scoping out those ankles more
than like a big surgical fix. I'm obviously not a doctor,
so don't take my medical advice by any means. But
I just trust that, like Chris is a gamer, he'll
figure it out when they need him the most, and
just hope that he has a little better luck this
year with the procedures. But he was kind of like,
you know, not angry, but kind of got annoyed about
how slowly they ran him up last year. He was like,
I can play more like I don't. I could play
thirty minutes when he's playing eighteen. But it also worked,
so I wouldn't be surprised if they were similarly cautious.
I don't know if he will play on the second
night of their sixteen back to backs this year, which
frankly I'm fine with. There's none of those in the playoffs.
I'd rather be careful with him. So it sucks, but
I trust him overall still, even through everything, because he
somehow was their best player and almost got him to
a Game seven against Indiana, which still to me is
wild given the run they went on after that.
Speaker 1: Offensively, I definitely trust him, and his game is not
necessarily pride it on like okay, like any sort of explosion,
But defensively, it feels like he's lost a few steps
over the years. It's like now coming off ankle surgeries,
I'm just like, oh man, like all this lower body stuff,
I'm just wondering, it's just gonna take its toll. And
then it's well, how valuable does it, like is it
to have a Gary Trent and Junior? Like does that
by default make a Torrian Prince or Adlon write more important?
Because like you kind of need that extra defensive juice
in there. Then if you're leaning on Torrian Prince for
defensive juice, like that like opens up a whole different
can worms with this Looking at this team, there are
some just sort of interesting young guys on there, or
a bunch of young guys on the roster. Whatever, you
just go through and get a couple of just like
your quick hitter thoughts on them and sad face emoji.
I feel like we should begin with mar John Bochan.
Speaker 2: Did you hear what Doc said about him on the
broadcast with PJ Carlesimo. I did not, basically, just like
they was talking about the importance of and I should
have pulled it up, but it was like just like
knowing where to be and what to do all the
time on the NBA floor, and he's like, that's something
that Marjon's just struggled with, And we're like, did you
just say that on TV? Like it's it's obviously true,
but like, did he just say that? I'm I'm I
think National technically TELEVI and some of Yague barely counts
because most people were tuned out of Bucks games because
they were pretty abysmal in Summer League. But I just
I think he's got some really important skills. I think
has not been able to consistently put it all together
in a way that helps the team. I think his
mental game just needs a little bit of improvement. I
think he either gets way too high or way too
low and it gets him into these funks and that's
just like the worst. This is the worst kind of
circumstance for a player like that when even if you
play well, your opportunities are going to be limited, but
if you don't, it's just really hard to stay on
the floor. And I think he has not improved enough
at like the scalable NBA things to have a consistent role.
Like some of his best moments are like he's like
isoing someone or like hitting a pull up, and it's
like they never need you to do that.
Speaker 1: They never hysterical where it's like he prefers to have
the ball or needs to have the ball.
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, you picked, you got pretty unlucky with
where you got draft. I mean it enjoy, you know,
I enjoy covering him with the Wisconsin heard here in
Oshcosh where he gets to do that all that he wants.
But I do you know what the crazy thing was
By the end of summer league, AJ Johnson, the nineteen
year old was handling the ball more and having marj
on screen for him. Like it was really a disastrous
summer League. For whatever that means, I think it means
a little, not a ton, maybe, But I just I
feel like this time is over because I think some
of these other young guys have shown to be either
have higher ceilings or just be better fits with what
the team actually needs. He's still a pretty good primitive defender.
That's why it's a little shocking that he hasn't flashed
on more, but has just not been able to do
enough consistently, I'd say.
Speaker 1: I also, I thought he did a good job offensively
of being in the right spots as a rookie, and
then like it just feels like that or at least
a better job of it. Another younger guy who does
seem to be liked by Doc Rivers is aj Green.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he didn't even have to go to Summer League,
which I think says a lot. He was playing regularly
around fourteen fifteen minutes per game under Doc, so like
a real rotational rule. I think really proved that he
can defend at the NBA level that was his thing
last year. He still hit shots. I mean, obviously he's
a shooter first, but I thought did really well defensively overall.
Had some really nice passing as well. It was tough.
He did not shoot well at all in the playoffs.
I'm not going to bury him on the six game
sample size at this point, but I think really had
an opportunity to even further entrench himself. But I think
already has come in. Probably I would think above a
player like Pat Contina at this point based on the
recent sample and kind of career trajectories. Sorry Pat C,
but I think he's there. Like I think he will
play every game. I'd be like something would have to
change pretty dramatically at this point in their rotation. He's
just proven like he can hang. He's not a defensive liability.
He's not a black hole despite being a good shooter.
And the most important thing, and something young guys struggle
with a lot, is if he is open, he's not
one to hesitate. He just puts it up. If he's
zero for three, he'll put up the fourth the same way.
That sounds like a weird thing that would be important.
But when young guys don't do that on teams like
the Bucks, with how good they are, you're just really unplayable.
And that's some of the marg on things too. It's
like you get the open corner shot, you dribble into
a floater. You just can never ever do that. You
just need to take the right shot every time. So
Aj Green have been ranting and raving about he came
on our podcast. Was very generous of him. Really nice guy,
and I think he will play a lot this season.
Speaker 1: Right there, you have it. Look, the way to get
into the Buck's rotation is to go on the Eurostep podcast.
Speaker 2: It didn't work out if ty Tyk Walkington Junior has
a good year in Phoenix, It's really true. It did
not work out for him. It did work out for
Aj Green. Also, Javon Carter twenty one million dollars after
coming on the podcast. Any players who are listening, that's
both are actually.
Speaker 1: Are in my book, Penylan, Yeah, where are we at
with Andre Jackson who always just seems like he's either
just an afterthought or then like he's on the court
and they're asking him to do way too much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's intoxicating. Did not have a good summer league either.
I think was actually pretty disappointing. He's not a summer
league player. He's very much like you know, off ball, roving,
screen setter, cutter, defend all over the place, kind of
got rebound put backs, and like the lack of organization
wasn't good for him. But also even the things he
wanted to be good at he wasn't necessarily. The big
thing I'm going to look at this year is did
he take a step back with his shot? It looked
like there was a little more of a hitch in
summer league, which is very concerning. He had an atrocious
jumper in college with the Yukon, but really it seemed
to simplify it. It was still ugly, but it was simple
and quick his rookie year. That's going to be a
big thing for me. And also just like one of
the underrated things from the that will be brought up
by the Andre Jackson junior proponents. We call him Ajax.
The Bucks lost the minutes with him and the Honus
on the court together, which makes sense given their skill sets,
how much they overlap and everything. That's really bad though,
you really can't afford to ever lose the honest minutes.
So I think he will have a chance to play.
I am less sure he will play every game. I
think he will fight to be around the tenth man
given all the talent on the roster, and it will
really depend on, you know, can some of the newer
additions being less old and slow than like Jake Prouder
and Pat Bev make his role less necessary and can
he take a step forward really offensively and following less
which was a huge issue for him.
Speaker 1: I initially thought that this might be like the player
who's least likely to see any meaningful minutes. But then
the way you talked about Marjohon Bochamp, I do have
to ask, like, where are we at with Chris Livingston?
Speaker 2: I couldn't be a bigger fan. I don't know if
you knew this or not. I have been Chris Livingston
fan since probably early last year, watching him with The
Herd up close, because he is one of those players
and this is a pretty rare thing. Like loves to go,
get in and bump and rebound right, loves to get
in there, trash talker. The Herd posted one of his highlights.
He posted dunkd somebody and they had to cut it
immediately after, but you could still see him get in
a player's face start to talk shit directly to them.
They literally could not cut it quick enough to get
that out. He has that kind of fire has really developed.
His jumper has had a bad can Tucky three point percentage,
but insisted to me earlier in the year and has
proven over his herd season and with Summer League that like,
I'm a good shooter, Like I didn't shoot wellt wel Kentucky,
but I can shoot kind of a mess of a
Kentucky team. I think he has a chance because they
have been dying for that PJ. Tucker replacement. I don't
know if he's there yet. I think he is the
type of player that does those things that the Bucks
really need of, just like go box out, because not
enough players that's how a Brook Lopez box out like
cut get to the rim more. Maybe he's met some
really nice Summer league passes. Hit open threes, but that's
like even less important now, like credibly take them. Sure
you don't need to be forty five percent if you're
like thirty seven percent, but you do all those other things,
that's just fine. He needs to be a little quicker
on his feet defensively, which I think will hold him back.
He put himself in a position in Summer League to
fight Andre Jackson Junior and Marjon and be that tenth guy.
I hope he gets a chance to play with the
primary players because I think he would look really good.
I think he's really well to do to be a
role player, which is kind of a rare thing I
think for a lot of young guys this early on.
So really about him?
Speaker 1: Where are you at with a lot of people hated
the aj Johnson picked. I can appreciate this wing just
watching him, even like the low moments, the on ball
speed is there. I think the jumper will actually be fine.
But like, how does he scale to a team, Like
we've talked about this with Bocham talk about this other
guys to a team that's not going to really give
him the ball, I would assume, like how does he
scale to that?
Speaker 2: He is like a draft in stash in Oshkosh to me, Like,
I don't think there's any any world where he plays
it all this year outside of you know, we're giving
five guys the night off on the second night of
an active right like we have we have a game
eighteen hours after a game and you know we have
to travel and you know, go get your touches. We
don't really care what happens when I loss here. I
think it's a long term thing. I think they have
such few picks going forward, and this is kind of
a philosophical change dating back to like two years ago
when they started to take like just young players in
twos and like AJ Green I think was a minute.
It was a two way first and then converted was
right after the draft. Chris Livingston and Ajax were both
second picks. Mar john was the first, and now they
have two pretty good picks in AJ Johnson and Tyler
Smith in terms of like they're where they were taken
in the draft. Now, I'm not saying it was a
good pick. Now we'll have to see how he plays out,
but like twenty three and thirty three are high picks
for the Bucks. I think their thought was, like, we
want the best possible player over the you know, the
first two contracts or whatever, not the best guy this year.
I think they had a pretty good idea they were
going to have some success in free agency and thought,
you know, the guy doesn't matter, Like if we take
a twenty three year old, he's also not going to play.
We want the guy who has the highest ceiling over
those first eight years or whatever it is. So they
took him I've seen some people say, like, does this
mean like they're gonna be ready to give up on
Dame earlier. I don't think this means anything about any
decisions for any players currently on the roster. I think
they're literally just like, we need young players who are
going to be cost controlled. We're going to take swings
on exciting ones and see if they pan out. We're
far from that happening. I was way lower on it
during the draft. I really liked Keishawn George. I was
a big fan of him. I thought maybe he could
help a little earlier. But I'll be the first to
say I'm not an expert scout, and I thought a J.
Johnson summer league was really fun. He really impressed and
kind of I think a lot of people, even if
they still disagreed, they saw the vision after that of like, okay,
like if he pans out, he's like probably at least
a starter, and it's just really hard to find those
at the late twenties and beyond.
Speaker 1: Uh, based on what you just said, let me see
if I can ask this question correctly. Just getting Tyler
Smith imply they're ready to move on from Giannis attend
Kompo a little bit sooner.
Speaker 2: Dude, there was and I don't think he was saying this,
but Jake Fisher of Yahoo at one point reported, like,
you know, it could be an option for the Bucks
to start Tyler Smith at the five, and one of
the Brook Lopez things was like, Tyler Smith can't defend
the one, two, three of the four. He certainly could
not defend the five at this point. I don't think
he ever will be Frankly, maybe you know, I know,
I don't think it means they're gonna move on from
Giannis or Brook or Bobby Portis. I do think it
made It made myself and some other Bucks analyst slash
fans feel a little better about the A. J. Johnson pick.
It's one of those where, like I think, if they
had taken him in the reverse order, it's a less
pan draft, which is a little weird, right, but I think, like, Okay,
the big guy who shoots like that's fine flyer, I guess,
versus the really you know, I think was seen as
very far away point guard, who again I thought looked
closer than the consensus in Summer League. But it's also
Summer League. But Tyler Smith is fun. I think his
upside is like a Channing Fry Michael Porter Junior kind
of player more than anything. Like, obviously, that's if it
really works out. I'm not saying he will for sure
do that, but that's a really useful player. And I'm
the honest team a really really useful player, so excited
to see can he just figure out where to be
at all defensively. But he's a good athlete with a
really good quick shot. So that's a fun player to land.
Speaker 1: What do we make of John Horse saying that the
way their roster is kind of balanced when you look
at just the number of young guys is intentional. It's
obviously a nod to the collective bargain agreement the second Apron,
But does that kind of mean like it's not that
the Bucks have a ton of stuff to trade? It
was like, are the Bucks kind of settling into like, well,
we're trying to plan for like the next era at
this point, and we're not going to be necessarily as
aggressive and maybe doubling down on let's just call it
the core four. If you want to throw Bobby Portis
in there too as well.
Speaker 2: I would put Brooke in over Bobby to be honest
even contract like.
Speaker 1: Plus Bobby Portis is what I meant. Like it justating,
not that they're they're clearly all in on this window,
but it's like, oh, we're definitely trying to plan for
this next era of Bucks basketball.
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think it's more a reaction
to they tried for so long to get these expendables
group of thirty six year old players because they were
so good and they were so helpful, and it just
has not worked for a long time, right, Like they've
just kept bringing these guys Joe Ingles, Jay Crowder, Pat
Bev was okay, But like, I just think they've kind
of made this decision we would rather take the long
term flyers than just have more of these guy guys
who probably can't play, and it's a little awkward if
we don't give them minutes even though they actually cannot play.
I think it's more of we'd rather have real competition
with players with an upward trajectory who maybe can play
then add in, you know whatever. I don't want to
just smirch anyone. Right that's about like West Matthews I
think is a free agent right now, bring back Wes
Matthews for the third time. He's like thirty nine years old, Like.
Speaker 1: Bring back Jay Crowder.
Speaker 2: I don't think that's likely. I saw him on a
boat with Malik Beasley this week on Instagram, and I
was like, I wonder what these guys are just talking about,
Like the Bucks. The Bucks made such bad decisions, man,
I bet that's what they were. I would too. I mean,
good for those guys, but yeah, I think they're just
like done trying that. And I think it's more about
the rest of the Yannis era. How can we find
more helpful players because I don't think you know, if
you subtract those five players you mentioned and it's like
four years from now or these young guys are gonna
be good enough for us to do anything of note
probably not right. You're probably cooked either way. But like,
can we have can three of the of the eyes
hit to be role players are better? And then we
have a core around thirty three year old be honest,
that is like still functional with like a vetman here
and a trade there.
Speaker 1: So when you look at this roster before watching any games,
what is their biggest need void to.
Speaker 2: You an athletic backup rim protector. Probably I think that
is the biggest gaping hole and it's not necessarily like again,
they can fill out their rotation pretty well, but I
don't think they have a good matchup option outside. I mean,
honest with the five is this, but they don't want
to do that too often. And I think they would
like to have another player as well, and I think
they kind of looked at it and weren't able to
really find one. But I think this is where the
Bobby Portis thing becomes kind of a weird fit. I mean,
this idea that they built the roster around Drew that
was kind of the you know, they first got Bobby
Portis that summer too, and I think being able to
be like an Iso big, it's just a lot less
valuable on this version of the Bucks and even even
less so now with like a Gary Trent Junior. Like
if you go through Bucks actions you want to see,
I think you can name quite a few before you
get to Bobby Porta's post up ice. Oh you know
what I mean. But he still wants to do it
and he doesn't want to give it up. He's like,
this is still a big part of the offense and
he just doesn't have that ability to be that like,
you know, mobile rim protector or rim finisher. I think
he finished. This is stat I don't know if you
knew Bobby Portis completed his first alley oop dunk as
a Milwaukee Buck late last season. Like for his body
type and size, you would just assumed there would be
a handful at least. He's just he's not really a
screen and rim runner. He's just a different kind of player.
I think they could really use one of those. I
think you watched the last playoffs and there's so many
of them helping. I think the Bucks could really use
that just to not just for big depth, but like
some matchups aren't good for Brooks, some are, some aren't.
The Pacer series obviously wasn't like if they had an
Isaiah Jackson type player. As meager as that sound, sorry
Isaiah Jackson. I think it's like a piece of optionality
for them that they're lacking. So I'd say that I
think their guard and wing depth is pretty good at
this point. I think they don't have that and they
can use it.
Speaker 1: I wonder what it would take to get like a
Nick Richards, you know, it would be interesting for them
to Dayron Sharp out of dam and I would be
curious to like how much those two because they're cheap,
so it would be easy the salary match given the
Bucks a situation. But those would be two interesting options
if they're looking to go that backup big archetype. Is
there anything whether it's a concern or something positive, maybe
hidden strength about this team that is flying under the radar,
not receiving enough attention, even if it's on the you know,
the national discourse rather than just the local Milwaukee level.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've already talked about the Damiana stuff. I
think I'll do a double So I think Chris Middleton generally,
I think is still like it's it's funny because even
among Bucks fans there's just like meme that I was
get shared of, like the cycle of Chris Middleton, where
it's like, you know, he gets he gets shit on.
He plays okay, he plays really well, everyone loves him.
He slumps a little bit or misses time, and it cycles.
And I think even though the last time we saw
him on court he was awesome, the surgery thing has
you know, turned the wheel more so we're back to
not really believing it. I think he's just like still
really good, and I don't want to like rank him
league wide or whatever. I think it's really hard to
do with like his different states we see over one year.
But I think like if he's moderately healthy in the playoffs,
it's still such a huge factor that I think gets
a little underregarded. I mean, go back to twenty one.
He was their main offensive initiator on a title team,
and I think he's not as far from that guy
as people think. The other one is, I do think
some of their young guys have actual juice now, which
has not been the case maybe Dante if not done
since Malcolm Brogden, who is not even young. Like it's
been a long time since I think they've had even
I have not been that excited about like at any point,
like DJ Wilson is going to be that guy or
whoever else. Yeah, partially because they just don't pick that often.
But I think between in the shorter term, AJ Green,
I'm a big Chris Livingston guy, and I'll say Andre
Jackson junior as well, and then longer term, I am
kind of excited about the swings on AJ Johnson, who
is like the most fun ball handler they've drafted. Probably
since Brandon Knight and then Tyler Smith, who again just
like that size, that skill set is interesting. Like I think,
I think they're going to be in a position to
have some of these young guys who pop like Bucks
fans always bemoan like the heat always have another guy,
right these teams that always I think they can do
it at least to some extent, which is just a
huge lift because if you look at the past couple
of years before last year, they just always relied on
their core guys and then the vet minimum vets again, right, like, Okay,
we'll bring in whoever it is. Marvin Williams, Wesley Matthews
goes on. I think they I think they need that juice,
especially as the corp gets even older. I think it's
really gonna help them, and it's gonna push these guys
in a good way. I think they've really they got
way too old in the early twenties twenties. I think
this will help them quite a bit.
Speaker 1: I will say Aj Green, probably you served Andre Jackson
as my favorite Bucks young player, although I do just
again based off what little I know about Johnson, there's
like a chaos to the way he plays that I
feel like, even if it's not gonna go well, his
minutes might be the one that I'd be most like
want to see. But in terms of actual impact, I
still think aj Green is like the I think he's
now you served and Jackson as my favorite guy there.
Speaker 2: He's very plug and play right, Like, it's very easy
to get a guy out there with almost any lineup
as long as you're not too light defensively, but I
think they'll be He's gonna he's gonna have a real role, I.
Speaker 1: Think, and he like he defends a little bit better
and bigger than you because he said three six four,
so he's not super huge, probably.
Speaker 2: About six four sixty five. But he's solid. Yeah, he's
a strong dude. Iowa Cornfed went to college for eighty
five years and in northern Iowa. He's uh, he doesn't.
He can do a little more offensively than you think too.
He's a he's a solid player, I think, yeah, because
they've also they've had like the old new shooters as well,
like the Brent Forbes kind of players. I think he's
a little more well routed than someone like that, if
not as quick or if not, he's probably actually a
better shooter, if not as quick as Brent Forbes.
Speaker 1: So he's got that what where the kids say the
corn fed rizz. That's what we're gonna say about it. Yeah, yeah, sure,
are you ready to enter the cookie cutter portion of
the podcast?
Speaker 2: Let's cut cookies?
Speaker 1: So what does the top ten of their rotation look like?
At full strength? It feels like they're probably like between
six and eight locks. So there's the starting line up
of the honest Dame Middleton Brook and then Gary Trent Junior.
I would throw obviously Bobby Portis is in there for
six and just because I think that they are youthful,
like at least one or Torrim Princes or Delon Wright
feels like a lot to me. I think you're both,
I think, and that's eight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why it's like, you know, it's gonna be
a lot of competition with the vets and the young guys,
and also just the young guys amongst themselves, because I
think there is at least one or two of them
that deserves some consideration and there's not spots for that.
I would go aj Green maybe even ahead of some
of these vets, but like you know, to not belabor
the point, I would throw him in there solidly as well,
like I think on par with a Torrian Prince or
a Delon right, So that's now nine. I think I
think I have nine locks. I think nine players I
feel very confidently will play and it works pretty well
positionally too. Right like the lan right at the one,
Prince is a forward, Green is like a two to three,
and then Bobby will play five for them, four or
five for them, So then it's like you can probably
take one more perimeter ish player. I'm going to put
Chris livingson at ten. I am such a believer to
give him that spot. I think they need Andre Jackson
Junior a little less now. I have not loved his summer,
but I think those two and I will say I
think Pat Contenden still has a shot to be ten
as well. I think a lot of Bucks fans just
gave up. He's the worst contract in the league. Now, YadA, yadas.
They're like, they're like, it's impossible to get rid of him.
It's this eight million a year, is so unwilledy for
this and one more year that he's I had someone
I was like, like, what do you not like about
this offseason? They got Gary Trent Junior, Tory Prince, they
kept all their main guys. It's like Pat's on the roster.
It's not a good offseason.
Speaker 1: It's like, what do you mean that level of doomsdayism.
I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 2: It's crazy. Yeah, people will find any reason Pat and
Bobby are still here. At Pat's still here. I think
he actually handled the ball really well last year. I
think he's continued to build out a skill set. He
was kind of their backup point guard at times and
did a weirdly good job of like I'll run a
pick and roll action, like I'll swing across court pass.
I think he's not like gonna just like roll over
and be out of the rotation. So I think those
two young guys and Pat c will be fighting for
that tenth spot and the other I mean marj on two.
Like the rookies, I just don't think are close. And
that's I think the whole roster. So yeah, I think
it's going to be very competitive for ten. I think
the first nine. I'd be kind of surprised if one
of the outside players broke into that group. It'd be fun,
it'd be a fun surprise, but I'd be surprised.
Speaker 1: What do you think will wind up being their most
used crunch time unit. Is it just the starting five
or is their potential to tweak from there.
Speaker 2: I think it'll probably be the starting five. I think
the big question with the Bucks, you know, for five
plus years now, has been can teams force them off
of Lopez? Right? Like if you can't, I think it's
really hard to beat them. Like if Lopez is playing
well against the team, their defense just tends to be
so good around the rim and their offense like they
figure it out. So I think it'll be that, and
then the second one will be the small version of
the lineup, like teams that get like Boston gets too stretchy,
Brooke can't hang or at least they don't feel like
he hangs well enough. Who do we put out there?
I'll say, I think it's going to be prints in
for Lopez, will be like the closing lineup, but I
don't think that's locked in, So then it's it would
be Dame Trent again, Chris slash Prince. They're kind of
three point five in it there, and then the honest
will be like their smaller lineup. I don't think it'll
be Bobby On they trust him enough defensively. Uh, And
then I think the other players may just be too small.
They really need rebounding in those groups maybe more than
anything else. I don't know if anyone else is going
to give an I mean, I know Prince isn't a
great remoinder either, but the other players were talking about
a pretty small or like Ajax just like or even
Chris Levingston is so unproven that'd be a little surprised
if if they made it to that spot.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you say, when you mentioned the brook
Lopez stuff, if you would have like rewound like seven
years ago whatever it is, and now we're coming to
hear brook Lopez is gonna be his age thirty six season,
I think, And like how many teams, like would do
you think could actively make it a choice for the
Bucks to pull him off the floor and crunch time
And it's like Boston for me, And then like maybe OKC,
who you only faced twice a year unless you're in
the finals. They're like, that's like pretty freaking impressive by him.
Speaker 2: It is. It is a thirty eight year and they
actually Brooke played awesome No. No. Thirty six seconds No,
he is, he is. He is solidly. He turns thirty
seven this but not until April, so it's his age
thirty eight, thirty six season. I don't know why I
keep saying thirty eight. He played. They played really well
against Oksee because those guys didn't want to shoot enough
threes and so Brooke was able to hang more and
they would just go more to his zone than making
him like chase around chet or whatever. That's gonna be
a big thing with okay See, Like those guys they
shoot well, but like, will you take enough to stretch
out the defense? I think that bit them in the playoffs.
But yeah, it's not that many teams. It's like Boston
for sure, and then maybe Miami. But I don't even
know how Miami's gonna play, to be I don't know what's.
Speaker 1: Think about Miami.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but they've been a tough one because Bam
just out on the perimeter and dhling and stuff.
Speaker 1: But yeah, what's a funky, weird, quirky lineup. You want
to see Doc Rivers throw out on the court.
Speaker 2: Oh, I want to see some of the young guys,
like I think, uh like Dame AJ Green, Chris Middleton,
Chris Livingston, Jannis like inject some of that athleticism, but
I think enough skill that. I mean, those guys will
always get ignored if they're out there with those other players, right,
but like I think they can make you pay enough
like something like that. That's like the squid word future thing.
That's how I feel watching watching that line up. So yeah,
I'd like to see something like that. No disrespect to
Gary Trent, but like the primary three guys with some
of the intriguing young guys, Like I want to see
a J. Johnson play with Gianna some right like stuff
like that where it's just like what can you do
with the real players when it's not like, Okay, we're
all just messily isoing because it's all a bunch of
us who don't really know what to do yet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, mine was gonna be Giannis and Dame plus kids,
So yeah, I would go with AJ Green Johnson and
Tyler Smith. I think like that's the five man unit
I want to see. And you can even talk me
into like, now, look, you sold me on Chris Livingston.
Let's take Dame out and throw him right there too.
Speaker 2: That giannest is gonna get like a flash forward to
what his career is gonna look like once everyone else
ages out, Like, we just.
Speaker 1: Want to let you know what it's gonna look like
around here in like twenty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Dame walks up, but he's like, now you know
how for over a decade. Now, welcome to my life, buddy.
Speaker 1: Okay. So, as we're recording this, which is on August
the twenty third, they're over under a set at fifty
and a half. Mister Taiwindish, are you taking the over the.
Speaker 2: Under smash in the over? I mean they have their
disastrous season where they win forty seven or forty eight
last year, I want.
Speaker 1: To says it's like their seasons did not go anywhere
near recording to planets, like they still kind of sniff
fifty victories.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were still the second seed until like the
last day of the season. So I'm gonna go over.
I mean, I don't know. I don't think they're gonna
win like high fifties. I think the East is a
little condensed to like the top six or seven teams.
I think a lot of teams will win high forties
or low and then Boston. Boston may just go off.
Maybe they regress, maybe not.
Speaker 1: Missing the like I would be shocked he played before Christmas,
so that could be all.
Speaker 2: But yeah, but it's like they have a lot of them.
They signed all their bit they signed everyone. Here's the take.
How do you feel about this? I say they should
have an a plug soft season because everyone's like, who
did you add? Who did you retain? You were the
best team in the league all year, you won the title,
you kept all of them for the long term, you
have to sell your team for it ish like that's
a conflating factory, but like what more can you ask for?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I don't why are people down on their offseason?
Speaker 2: But it's just like, you know, who won the off season.
It's got to be like the Sixers or the Knicks.
It's got to be who did you add? Like that's
always the convo, right, Like that's the that's an off
Who did you add this offseason? Like last year I
said Bucks should get an A. They kept Chris, they
kept Brook Like this is really important things. It's like, well,
that's not an addition though, you know what I mean?
Like I feel like it's viewed differently, whereas if I'm Boston,
I resigned Tatum, I resigned everyone like.
Speaker 1: A White extension. We haven't done our grade yet for
this year. We actually just finish our regates from last year.
That was a that was a trip. But yeah, I
mean they have to get the Derek White extension alone
is huge and for what you said, the larger Yeah,
Wick Grossbeck wants to sell the team, but still have
to say, we'll see what fucking happens with that. But yeah,
it might be shady as as to how they get there.
But the fact that they just continue to reinvest in
the roster in the face of this, like extending Sam
Hauser is kind of the ho like, we really don't
give a fuck then about his bill right now. So
it'll come do at some point and they'll make changes.
But I'd be with you in the sense that, yeah,
when you look at it through that lens, it we
do look, we're drawn to think about how the NBA
has pedaled itself like it's a transactions league and so
like talent acquisition over retention. So that's a really that's
a that's a great point. But yeah, I don't think
it's do anything wrong. Is awesome, No, for sure.
Speaker 2: No, I mean the draft a guy who can maybe
be good one day. I don't I don't care about
Baylor Shireman, but they've resigned all their centers when they
have these big questions with putting it swore. But anyway,
the Bucks, I think way over. I think like mid
fifties is pretty reasonable. I think they'll be contending for
like one or two. If Boston has another sixty win
then too, I think they'll be contending for a top
couple seed in the East.
Speaker 1: And based off the podcast you did power ranking the
Bucks' place in the East, it sounds like you're prepared
to say that Boston is the only team you would
be fairly confident is better than that next time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think the Knicks were
are the closest beside that. But for me with them,
I'm kind of like, what does this look like? I
think it's kind of underrated how much is being added
together And you know, listen, I'm not trying to I'm
not gonna Galaxy B and be like it's bad. They
have so many good players, but like adding bridges, add
back in Randall, I think it's gonna be kind of
funky and like there's gonna be this kind of feeling
out process, like the Bucks had this last year. I
think they're certainly deeper, but I think they're like they're
like the it's gonna sound Knicks fans are gonna be.
They're like the budget version of the Celtics. They have
like six guys where we're like, damn, that is a
good top six, but the Celtics one is just like
crazily like more talented.
Speaker 1: And also with Boston, their top six is universally revered.
And I think when you look at the Knicks, people
have and legitimately show questions about Josh Hart, Mitchell Robinson,
Julius Randall. So i'd agree that it does feel like
there's more boom or bust. Is probably strong, but there's
there's more variance in what their outcomes could And I
don't know that I've settled on who should be the
best team in the East, but to me, I would
loop the Bucks, the Knicks, the Sixers, and like I'm
pretty high on Cleveland, like those are all teams that
should be fighting. Like those just feel like bar None,
I like Orlando, I like Indiana, but those feel like
the five best teams in the league.
Speaker 2: I agree. I think I think it's pretty clear. I
think I'd be surprised. I mean, I think Cleveland, I
don't think it's as good as the other four that
you talk about, but regular season, if they were like
the two or three, would I be shocked. No, because
they know they also have the continuity and maybe to
like a startling degree. They've literally signed no players that
weren't on their team before, which like, okay, maybe get one.
Maybe do the.
Speaker 1: Players record for floating around out there?
Speaker 2: They kind of needed. You look at this team like
you guys are a little thin, like maybe add one
player two players. They also don't have a backup big
so they have some questions still, I think. But but
they know how to play together. Although they're best stretch
of the year, they were like half that they make
no just.
Speaker 1: To stop and start availability. I think people are gonna
be surprised at how good they aren't. Also, Evan Mobley
started taking above the break threes those who all be
and I think that they got more into you know,
you mentioned not having a backup center. They're staggering mobilely
now and more so that's like the team I honestly,
honestly we'll probably get killed for this, but I think
of the teams that we named the Knicks might have
the lowest floor and the highest ceiling of it just
because and I think you could talk me into Philly
having the lowest floor if there's like an Embiid injury,
but even just like they have a real team around Tyrese, Maxie,
Paul Georgian Embiid as well. But like with the Knicks,
the integration of Julius Randall, I thought he did better
accessory work last year, but that's like that's a thing
in this larger ecosystem. What's he gonna look like? And
also losing I say a Heartenstein is huge. That was
like you're two way big because Mitchell Robinson's so limited
on offense, and it's now if you're gonna rely on
Mitchell k fine, will he be healthy? You know you're
not gonna get a ton for him on offense. Aside
from the rebounding element, is Tims going to actually play
like Julius rand On Og is his front court where
Og is your defensive five and Julius is your offensive five.
I think that works out really well. But do you
want ognob being taxed that much defensively? And like Josh
Hart's average fifty minutes a game and like does John
look at he got injured last year? So there. I
think the Knicks, I think they could be really good
and I would probably I like their roster overall better
than a lot of these like like Milwaukee's up there
for me, but like I might like their ceiling for
next season more than a Cleveland or a Philly. But
at the same time, it's like I do have more
questions about the top of their roster than a lot
of these other rosters.
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that differentiates them from
the other teams is they have one player who's so
important in brunts into what they do offensively. And I
really wonder like if he misses any more like anytime
this year with the voting like that, yeah, or if
he just regrets, well, yeah, he had a crazy, crazy Yeah.
That contract discourse for him was kind of funny. Souse.
Everyone's like, yeah, he would have obviously gotten a full
max next year. I'm like, maybe I think it was
a good season to sign the biggest possible contract after
as well. I think that, you know, I understand he
probably would have gotten it, but like he don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel confident in saying he would have gotten it
from the Knicks just because they don't have especially after
the mcal Bridges trade, they had no outs like it
with him. But I think the best way to frame
it is he punted on like twelve to thirteen million
dollars a year over the next three years. And that's look,
if you're gonna save your team one Dante DiVincenzo a year,
is how I framed it. That's a concession.
Speaker 2: I just look, he's clearly deserving. I just I didn't
think it was like the craziest I think you honest
said the same thing like the year before and received
less fanfare. I wonder, I wonder what played into that.
But but anyway.
Speaker 1: I will I agree with you on the front where
people have assumed that like, oh, when he can opt
out in three or four years whatever, twenty twenty eight,
I think it is he's just gonna get that five year.
And I had this talk when I was speaking with
Andrew Claudio Nick Filmscho on the podcast. I said, he's
not getting that deal, and quarters like really, I was like,
they're not going to give it. That is wildly irresponsible,
Like that is the sacrifice that's being made? Is you
could say there's an under the hand like a handshake
agreement here, he's not getting that full it's not happening.
Like it's just not happening.
Speaker 2: I don't think for any player outside of like the
Kevin Durance, you can ever assume three years from now
you get any sort of huge I just think that,
especially a smaller guard. Small guard is the riskiest.
Speaker 1: Look, the Clippers just like faked an excuse to get
rid of Paul George, like because like the CBA is
having this career impact where I think there's like the
top five to ten guys they'll be max like a
honest let's say he'll get max money in his next contract.
Like you once guys start to get into their thirties,
like if you're not a top seven player at that point,
like there's going to be questions about it.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, there's it's gonna be a fascinating game
player option in a year or two here of like,
which which way is that going to go? Like, I
have no idea. I think obvious a lot will hinge
of course on what this year looks like. But uh,
it gets real interesting. I think we probably will get
to a point where almost every player option ends up
getting taken. I mean there were vetmins taken this year
that I like, Cam Reddish, He's going to go find
vetmin somewhere. He's like, I'm not gonna chance it. I'll
take the vetman in front of me, which wowed me.
So Yeah, I think it's it is a whole new
league league cap world.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I didn't mean to take take you on a
tangent so far out?
Speaker 2: Was that was? That was I got started. I did
the Boston offseason thing that got us here.
Speaker 1: Is there anything anyone else about this team we haven't
discussed that you think needs to be touched upon before
I let you skidaddle?
Speaker 2: I set too high of a standard four years ago
when I talked about like the honis as a play
starter versus finisher thing. I haven't had as good of
a one since then, and I feel like we've covered
a lot of the most pressing stuff. I'll say, like,
I am really curious to see, generally, what does Gary
Trent Junior look like on the box, because I think
he was a pretty drastically different kind of player in
Portland than he was with Toronto, and I think this
is even another much different kind of situation here, and
I'm really interested, like can't like NBA players are so talented,
and I think about a player like Michale Bridges, Notcale Bridges,
but like was like the three and D guy who
did almost nothing offensively in Phoenix and then gets the
role and immediately like his whole game changes in Brooklyn,
he couldn't really sustain it. But you know what I mean,
Like players I think sometimes are more scalable than we realize.
And I'm really interested in seeing, you know, what is
the version of Gary Trent Junior where they probably need
him less than any team has needed him offensively, and
they really needed him defensively. What does that look like
for him? How does he acclimate to that. I'm not
saying it's one hundred percent positive. I'm just very interested
to see what is his role, how does he play,
and what does he focus on this year?
Speaker 1: That's interesting. So it could almost be sort of the
inverse of what happened with Dylan Brooks in Houston, because
we're talking about Gary Trent Junior's defense. But if you
go look at Dylan Brooks's shot selection in Memphis versus Houston,
completely reined in in Houston and so it's like Gary
Junior all of a sudden going to be rained in
in a good way defensively for the Bucks. I wrangle
it out because he has a talent, I don't know
if he has like the physical tools to be like
a capslock wing defender, like you can get by like
certainly any guard position and like maybe some threes. That's
a really interesting sentiment that we probably should give more
consideration to. I do also wonder though, how it factors in.
It sometimes becomes very hard, Like brook Lopez is kind
of an exception. He gets the bi annual from the
Bucks and turns into this and like sometimes players end
up on minimums or discounted deals and they have so
much Like even only Beasley only got. I thought he
was good enough to get more than one year six million,
and that's all you got. So it's like that j
does that impact his psyche at all? But I think, yeah,
what you mentioned at the very beginning of this podcast
to come full circle is the difference between the minimum
and the tax payermid level. And like also a lot
of these contenders now I think they don't have the
tax payermid level because they're in the second apron and
if you're going to make like reinvent yourself or be
viewed more positively around the league, there may be maybe
players are coming around, even if they're younger. Like GTJ
was saying, if I impact a winner like that, the
Bucks go to the Eastern Conference finals, are deeper or
win the title, that's going to do more for me
than if I'm on Toronto or another team and I'm
averaging fifteen seventeen twenty points a game.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's the gamble. I mean there's always
the long route too, of what Portis did of. You know,
if you stay another year, then you can get the
early bird twos. Yeah, yeah, then you can get you know,
it'll probably be like fifteen million a year by that point,
So that's something still less than he would have liked
to make this year. I would assume he's gone after
one year. I think it's really hard to retain players.
But I didn't think he would show up in the
first place. So it's uncharted territory, right, Like, we don't
know how this will turn out. I was also I
wouldn't say surprised because I watched him, but I thought
basily would get a little more. It used to be
like you bang threes at that level? I mean, I mean,
I think Duncan Robinson is better, but like Davas Berton's right, like,
if you bang threes at a crazy level forty five percent,
you're getting double digit millions per year over like four years.
But I think teams are just really stingy now outside
of the exceptions, and it's like there's KCP and then
there's like everyone else.
Speaker 1: Ty, this was great as usual. Are you able just
to tell our listeners where they can find you and
all the fantastic work that you do.
Speaker 2: At Ty Wendish on Twitter and threads, probably posting it
both places, a little less on Instagram doing a little
Instagram did a reel the other day, really getting crazy.
But the Eure Outstep podcast network wherever you listen or
listen to or watch this fine podcast for our Bucks content,
and then GESPN dot info if you want even more
Wisconsin sports, including some premium stuff, you can check us
out there as well.
Speaker 1: TI, thank you so much, as you know by now
we'll be pestering you again in the future, so I
will talk to you soon.
Speaker 2: I can't wait. I hope the Bucks are a playoff factor,
so I can try and weasel my way in here
in not off season land, but we'll we'll see. It's
been a while now, so fingers crossed, at least for
my sake.