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<v Speaker 1>Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my godness, being Frank fright, where the only way

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<v Speaker 2>to be is Frank. Hello everyone, and welcome to being Frank.

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<v Speaker 2>We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm your host,

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<v Speaker 2>Franklin Bono, and I'd like to thank you for joining

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<v Speaker 2>us on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>where no conversation is out of bounds and all points

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<v Speaker 2>of view are welcome. Of course, we go live to tape.

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<v Speaker 2>I give you the date so you have some relevance

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<v Speaker 2>and context. It's the eleventh of February. On September seventeenth,

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<v Speaker 2>seventeen eighty seven, at the Constitutional Convention in Independence Hall,

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<v Speaker 2>doctor Benjamin Franklin was scheduled to address the delegates. As

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<v Speaker 2>he was ill that day, he submitted a prepared speech

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<v Speaker 2>to be read instead. Within it, he wrote these words

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<v Speaker 2>in these sentiments, sir, I agree with this Constitution with

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<v Speaker 2>all its faults, if they are such, because I think

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<v Speaker 2>a general government necessary for us, and there is no

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<v Speaker 2>form of government, but what may be a blessing to

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<v Speaker 2>the people if well administered. And believe further that this

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<v Speaker 2>is likely to be well administered for a course of years,

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<v Speaker 2>and can only end in despotism, as other forms have

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<v Speaker 2>done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted

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<v Speaker 2>as to need despotic government. Obviously, this is stern and

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<v Speaker 2>warning to future generations of Americans considering the so called

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<v Speaker 2>liberties the current administration under Donald J. Trump is taking

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<v Speaker 2>with our constitution. That warning may have never been more

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<v Speaker 2>important than it is right now. Mister Trump and his

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<v Speaker 2>minions are running roughshot over every aspect of our federal

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<v Speaker 2>government under the guise of sweeping reform, despite the obvious

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<v Speaker 2>chaos and carnage it is creating. But what is truly

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<v Speaker 2>baffling to me is that polls show that a majority

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<v Speaker 2>of Americans still support his agenda despite significant opposition. His

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<v Speaker 2>popularity has never been higher. As a proud member of

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<v Speaker 2>that significant opposition I just mentioned, I intend to find

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<v Speaker 2>ways of creating nonviolent resistance to a movement that, in

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<v Speaker 2>the end will rob us of the very freedom we

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<v Speaker 2>hold so near. I have asked a great friend with

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<v Speaker 2>similar sentiments in a Washington inside his view to help

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<v Speaker 2>give us his unique perspective on the workings of government

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<v Speaker 2>and the dangers of the unhinged decisions currently being made

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<v Speaker 2>even as we speak. Jim Lyons, like me, grew up

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<v Speaker 2>in a family who believed in public service and the

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<v Speaker 2>value of helping others and serving the needs of their

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<v Speaker 2>fellow citizens. After graduating from Rutgers, Jim attended Yale School

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<v Speaker 2>of Forestry and Environmental Studies. He went on to work

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<v Speaker 2>for the West Fish and Wildlife Service the Society of

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<v Speaker 2>American Foresters, which led to a staff job with the

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<v Speaker 2>House Committee on Agriculture. He went on to serve as

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<v Speaker 2>an assistant secretary in the Department of Agriculture for President

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<v Speaker 2>Clinton and later in the Department of Interior for President Obama.

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<v Speaker 2>He has also worked on international issues related to poverty

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<v Speaker 2>and climate change for Oxfam and taught environmental policy at Yale. Jim,

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<v Speaker 2>welcome back. You've been here before, my friend, welcome again.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, thanks, Frank, it's great to join you. Very very

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<v Speaker 1>important time for us to have this conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm very serious about what I said. I mean, this

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<v Speaker 2>is such a fluent situation as we speak. Changes are

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<v Speaker 2>being made, and not necessarily for the better. Let's talk

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<v Speaker 2>about that. And since I mentioned the Constitution in my introduction,

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<v Speaker 2>let's start there. Okay, you have always seen a balance.

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<v Speaker 2>You worked within a balance of government. That was the

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<v Speaker 2>whole idea behind the formation of this government by the

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<v Speaker 2>so called Founding Fathers, that there.

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<v Speaker 1>Would be a balance of power.

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<v Speaker 2>But you see this administration as destroying that balance.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's address that well. In my time and govern both

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<v Speaker 1>inside the Congress and as well as working for three presidents,

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<v Speaker 1>there was always a dynamic tension and differences of opinion

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<v Speaker 1>about different policies, different programs and approaches. That was that

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<v Speaker 1>was not unique. I would say that things began to

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<v Speaker 1>change under the newt Gingrich when he assumed a leadership

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<v Speaker 1>role in the House. Mister Gingrich was more more willing

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<v Speaker 1>to take off the gloves and and argued vehemently for

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<v Speaker 1>his points of view, which is part of what the

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<v Speaker 1>give and take needs to be in in any dialogue

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<v Speaker 1>between people trying to get to an outcome that but

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<v Speaker 1>maybe starting from different points of view. But things continued

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<v Speaker 1>after that point in time, and as the Republicans ultimately

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<v Speaker 1>took over the Congress, things became even more challenged. That

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<v Speaker 1>occurred while I was working for President Clinton. I think

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<v Speaker 1>we saw more arguments, more vehemence, more threats than than

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<v Speaker 1>I had seen in in my previous tenure and working

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<v Speaker 1>with people on Capitol Hill, and obviously, you know, we

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<v Speaker 1>face something like that today. You know, the the current

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<v Speaker 1>president UH certainly believes in taking the gloves off, certainly

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<v Speaker 1>does not believe my impression in tradition or comedy, although

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<v Speaker 1>what he's doing sometimes is comedic, I mean comedy in

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<v Speaker 1>a different way, and and certainly is strident in in

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<v Speaker 1>how he's approached governing the second time around, helped by

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<v Speaker 1>the Heritage Foundation, which put together a long, detail filled

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<v Speaker 1>almost cookbook for how to change government to meet the

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<v Speaker 1>needs of the ultra conservatives that are on the board

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<v Speaker 1>of the Heritage Foundation. It's just a very different time,

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<v Speaker 1>and I believe not beneficial for America. Certainly not beneficial

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<v Speaker 1>for American citizens who really rely on their representatives to

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<v Speaker 1>help government move forward in a positive way, meeting the

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<v Speaker 1>needs of all Americans, not just you know, one side

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<v Speaker 1>or the other. But this is a very different time.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me jump in there, Jim, because I think we

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<v Speaker 2>can make a good point about the workings of government.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we see it. Those of us who are

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<v Speaker 2>not in government see it from a distance. You were within.

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<v Speaker 2>So the workings have explained how there's this huge workforce.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you look at as a company, there

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<v Speaker 2>are millions of employees. So take us with in that.

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<v Speaker 2>You know how it works because it's kind of a

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<v Speaker 2>different environment, because it's politically charged. We know that. But

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<v Speaker 2>yet at the same time you have a job to do.

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<v Speaker 2>How does that all work out?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let me just correct one thing you said, which

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<v Speaker 1>may be misinterpreted. I shouldn't say correct what you said,

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<v Speaker 1>but of course you know. My first position in government

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<v Speaker 1>was as a civil servant working for the US Fish

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<v Speaker 1>and Wildlife Service. It was a staff position, it was

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<v Speaker 1>not a political position in any way, shape or form,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was charged with helping to put together a

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<v Speaker 1>national survey for the first time to understand Americans views

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<v Speaker 1>and attitudes towards wildlife and the environment, and in particular

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<v Speaker 1>how Americans used wildlife used, meaning everything from backyard bird

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<v Speaker 1>feeding and bird watching to hunting and fishing and the like.

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<v Speaker 1>That report was known as nineteen eighty Survey of Fishing, Hunting,

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<v Speaker 1>and Wildlife as Social Recreation. Was a landmark report in

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<v Speaker 1>that it opened up the eyes of millions of Americans

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<v Speaker 1>as well as the outdoor recreation industry to the economic

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<v Speaker 1>opportunities associated with wildlife viewing, fishing, hunting, and the like.

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<v Speaker 1>It was probably the most popular thing I ever produced.

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<v Speaker 1>We had fifty individual state reports and it was transformative.

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<v Speaker 1>What we called in the survey trips to visit wildlife

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<v Speaker 1>we now referred to as ecotourism. Back in nineteen eighty,

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<v Speaker 1>believe it or not, five hundred million dollars was spent

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<v Speaker 1>on bird seed and the bird seed industry exploded when

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<v Speaker 1>that information came out. People were enjoying backyard wildlife. Obviously

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<v Speaker 1>people were enjoying hunting and fishing. But this was a

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<v Speaker 1>government service and we were trying to provide information to

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<v Speaker 1>the public and to the different industries that were interested

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<v Speaker 1>in the outdoors, fishing, wildlife and the like. Information that

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<v Speaker 1>helped them think about how they could grow their businesses,

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<v Speaker 1>how they could better serve the public, and how they

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<v Speaker 1>might change the way people viewed fish and wildlife not

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<v Speaker 1>just for sport, but for enjoyment and also part of

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<v Speaker 1>understanding the health of our environment as populations of different

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<v Speaker 1>species changed. So that was my job and it was exciting.

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<v Speaker 1>I got exposed to a lot of interesting people. I

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<v Speaker 1>was working for Jimmy Carter, ultimately and the Secretary of

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<v Speaker 1>the Interior where fish widlife Services was headed by a

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<v Speaker 1>gentleman named Cecil Andrews, who was governor had been governor

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<v Speaker 1>of Idaho, and somewhat ironically, though to my enjoyment, I

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<v Speaker 1>ended up serving on a board for a nonprofit organization

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<v Speaker 1>in Idaho with former Governor Andrews, and it was it

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<v Speaker 1>was delight. He was. He was a politician who knew

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<v Speaker 1>how to work in the realm of politics to get

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<v Speaker 1>things done. And one of his greatest accomplishments was protecting

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<v Speaker 1>Southeast Alaska, which at the time in nineteen eighty was

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<v Speaker 1>kind of up for grabs, timber industry, fishing community, some

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<v Speaker 1>people interested in out the recreation, you know, the native

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<v Speaker 1>culture up there threatened by development. And he did his

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<v Speaker 1>job as secretarviy Interior, working with a huge group of

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<v Speaker 1>people who had expertise in many fields to reach a

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<v Speaker 1>compromise and get this done. That might assume he was

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<v Speaker 1>a Republican, No, Susus Andrews was a Democrat. He was

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<v Speaker 1>a Iidaho Yeah, which animal these days, for he may

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<v Speaker 1>have been the last Democrat in Idaho, but but a

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<v Speaker 1>very active governor and a very effective public servant in

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<v Speaker 1>the Corn administration.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about the mindset as a question a little

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<v Speaker 2>further on, but as things roll and I'd like to

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<v Speaker 2>be flexible, it's let's bring it up.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>The difference in the ethos if you will, the zeitgeide Geist,

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<v Speaker 2>the philosophy of the parties Democrats Republicans, where Democrats seem certainly,

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<v Speaker 2>at least on the surface, to be more aware if

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<v Speaker 2>you will, of quality of life issues like the environment, etc.

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<v Speaker 2>And every time they try to do reasonable things like

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<v Speaker 2>you're mentioning things that are associated with a software approach,

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<v Speaker 2>if you will, the environment, but doesn't necessarily have to

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<v Speaker 2>be it can be the revenue generating. It seems like

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<v Speaker 2>the Republicans just have a refusal to see it that

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<v Speaker 2>way and any light presented to them.

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<v Speaker 1>Your thoughts, Well, my sense and I actually had a

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<v Speaker 1>We had a former classmate in Fort Lee High School

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<v Speaker 1>who worked for the Heritage Foundation. His name was j. Cousminski.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you remember Jay Sure and he was an ultraliberal

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<v Speaker 1>in high school. Well, boy, did he turn around and

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<v Speaker 1>became quite the conservative working for the Heritage Foundation, which

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<v Speaker 1>we learned, of course at at a reunion anyway, The

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<v Speaker 1>Heritage Foundation, I think, believes that the private sector and

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<v Speaker 1>not the public sector, should kind of direct policy, dictate outcomes,

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<v Speaker 1>and government is best is a government that's least, as

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<v Speaker 1>the saying goes. And so as you look at the

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<v Speaker 1>Heritage Foundation's report prepared in anticipation of this election, you

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<v Speaker 1>know it pretty much laid out the blueprint or the

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<v Speaker 1>playbook for what our new president is doing in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of dismantling pieces of government, transferring roles and response abilities

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<v Speaker 1>to the private sector, and really trying to minimize I

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<v Speaker 1>think the extent to which the government has a role,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it's in protecting the environment, public health and safety,

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<v Speaker 1>law enforcement.

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<v Speaker 2>And jump let me jump in and play the devil's

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<v Speaker 2>advocate again because mentioning his popularity, and he can say, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>I ran on this. This is not a surprise. People

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<v Speaker 2>seem to be accepting it. Should they? Is government too big?

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<v Speaker 2>Is there this huge abundance of waste? Is he and

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<v Speaker 2>again I'm playing the devil's advocate. Is he addressing issues

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<v Speaker 2>that needed to be addressed? I think he's doing with

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<v Speaker 2>a sledgehammer, when certainly a scalpeld might do. But we

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<v Speaker 2>need your thoughts, because like you, I've not been there directly.

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<v Speaker 1>You have, well, I think I think the perceptions the

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<v Speaker 1>public have of government reflect the lack of understanding really

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<v Speaker 1>of what government is, what it does. Who are the

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<v Speaker 1>people who are engaged in government. I mean they are

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<v Speaker 1>people like me. There are people we know. There are

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<v Speaker 1>people with expertise. I mean, you know PhD doctors who

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<v Speaker 1>are helping to kind of find cures for cancer. A

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<v Speaker 1>government function. You know, they are military leaders. You know

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<v Speaker 1>kids you know from our neighborhoods who kind of work

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<v Speaker 1>their way up the ranks and h and found themselves

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<v Speaker 1>in leadership positions. I mean, you know, they The government

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<v Speaker 1>covers you know, public safety, transportation, building roads and bridges,

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<v Speaker 1>helping promote rural development, and infrastructure plays a critical role

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<v Speaker 1>in agriculture because agriculture is heavily dependent on ships and markets,

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<v Speaker 1>and and you know what, what happens on the world

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<v Speaker 1>stage sometimes means that it's necessary to help subsidize some

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<v Speaker 1>farmers to make sure that they can continue to farm

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<v Speaker 1>because his market shift, they'll come back into play. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>government affects people's lives in many, many different ways, oftentimes

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<v Speaker 1>not well understood. Yet It is interesting that many people

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<v Speaker 1>in government, many people in the public, seem to think

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<v Speaker 1>government is something evil. And maybe maybe it's because people

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<v Speaker 1>don't really understand the role the government plays. And as

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<v Speaker 1>I said, and everything from health and safety to securing

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<v Speaker 1>our retirement incomes. Social security is a great example, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know Medicare and the healthcare system that frankly only

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<v Speaker 1>became law because of the vote of one man, a

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<v Speaker 1>Republican senator from Arizona.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, you brought up a good point that I

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<v Speaker 2>think we need to elaborate on a little bit. Just

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<v Speaker 2>before we started recording, I was watching a little of

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<v Speaker 2>CNN in the background, and there was a very interesting

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<v Speaker 2>report a farmer from I believe Missouri, and they were

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<v Speaker 2>they anchor at CNN was interviewing one of the senators

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<v Speaker 2>from Missouri, who, of course a Republican, is supporting the

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<v Speaker 2>whole Trump agenda. And the point being that the farmer

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<v Speaker 2>explained that when Trump stopped all payments from us AID, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>because why are we giving food to foreigners we need

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<v Speaker 2>it here, et cetera, et cetera. Whatever excuse he did give,

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't realize that us AID okay, this farmer was

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<v Speaker 2>selling enormous amounts of grain under contract which was now canceled. So,

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<v Speaker 2>as you said, as the market fluctuates, his market is

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<v Speaker 2>at this point gone and he doesn't know what he

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<v Speaker 2>will do to replace it. So here again is this

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<v Speaker 2>thoughtlessness in a bigger picture thing where there's a rush to, oh, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>why are we helping people? And we should be helping

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<v Speaker 2>ourselves because in helping other people, we are helping ourselves.

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<v Speaker 1>Speak to that, well, yes, we are helping ourselves in

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<v Speaker 1>so many different ways. This has already been kind of

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<v Speaker 1>part of the debate in the early tenure of UH,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, of the new Trump administration cutting off foreign aid,

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<v Speaker 1>in fact seeking to eliminate the Agency for International Development AID. UH.

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<v Speaker 1>People fail to realize that, you know, we provide a

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<v Speaker 1>great deal of support and assistance to other countries, to

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<v Speaker 1>communities in you know, sometimes in poverty, but that aid

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<v Speaker 1>you know, helped keep them alive, helps feed their families,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, helps them stay healthy, and and the relationship

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<v Speaker 1>they develop with the United States, more often than not,

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<v Speaker 1>not the stuff you see on TV, which is always

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<v Speaker 1>looking for conflict to highlight, the relationship they develop has

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<v Speaker 1>a huge, huge impact on their quality of life. And

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<v Speaker 1>their wellbeing and my experience in the time I worked

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<v Speaker 1>for oxfand demonstrated that, you know, people really really appreciated that.

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<v Speaker 1>If I could have been to offer one example, please

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<v Speaker 1>do that I think is relevant. So OXFAM there's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of work around the world, but one of the

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<v Speaker 1>particular areas that we focused on for period of time

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<v Speaker 1>was was in Ethiopia and that portion of Africa which

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<v Speaker 1>is known for producing high quality coffees. And if you've

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<v Speaker 1>ever if everyone a good cup of coffee, find a

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<v Speaker 1>little Ethiopian coffee shop and it's remarkable the coffee they

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<v Speaker 1>grow there.

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<v Speaker 2>Well.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh, OXFAM supported many coffee growers in that area, and

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<v Speaker 1>again that was a way to ensure that they had

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<v Speaker 1>income and they could be sustained, their families were secure,

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<v Speaker 1>so you know, provided kind of a stable environment, which

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<v Speaker 1>was beneficial to them obviously, but to us as well,

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<v Speaker 1>because instability breeds contempt and that breeds, uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the threat of insurrection or the threat of you know, takeover.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is one of the critical roles at a

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<v Speaker 1>I D plays. But but here's here's here's the critical

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<v Speaker 1>role that OXVAN played. So at a certain point in time,

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<v Speaker 1>Starbucks and the the head of Starbucks at the time

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<v Speaker 1>wanted wanted to promote more production of these fine, high

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<v Speaker 1>quality coffees in Ethiopia, but weren't willing to pay much

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<v Speaker 1>more for that for that production. And ox Van, given

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<v Speaker 1>its role in trying to address global poverty and and

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<v Speaker 1>and in essence helped support you know, more certainty and

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<v Speaker 1>sustainability for these communities, stepped in. I happened to be

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<v Speaker 1>the vice president for policy at the time, and took on,

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<v Speaker 1>took on Starbucks and and we actually went to a

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<v Speaker 1>Starbucks a directors meeting, shareholders meeting in Seattle, and I

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<v Speaker 1>had a chance to speak briefly and took on, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the president's CEO of Starbucks made you know, and passion

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<v Speaker 1>plea for the fact that Starbucks was undercutting these farmers

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<v Speaker 1>who were producing some of the highest quality coffees that

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<v Speaker 1>Starbucks had to offer. They were undercutting themselves, and they

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<v Speaker 1>were undercutting the stability and ultimately democracy in that area.

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<v Speaker 1>I won't go into any more detail, but suffice it

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<v Speaker 1>to say that a few board members on the Starbucks board,

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<v Speaker 1>including former basketball star and Senator from New Jersey Bill Bradley,

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<v Speaker 1>apparently I was told had a conversation with the head

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<v Speaker 1>of Starbucks at the time and suggested that maybe they

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<v Speaker 1>were going in the wrong direction with regard to their

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<v Speaker 1>relationship to these farmers. And lo and behold, Starbucks changed

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<v Speaker 1>their business model and they started going to Ethiopia and

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<v Speaker 1>other parts of the African continent and helping these farmers.

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<v Speaker 1>Helped improve their production, the quality of the beans they

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<v Speaker 1>were producing, and their ability to market those beans so

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<v Speaker 1>that they could realize better incomes and greater stability in

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<v Speaker 1>their community. I mean, that's what international assistance does. And

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<v Speaker 1>I can tell you that the US government used to

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<v Speaker 1>provide some support for OXFAM, although I can tell you

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<v Speaker 1>that as the transition was occurring in Congress and more

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<v Speaker 1>Republicans were stepping into leadership roles, I testified on behalf

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<v Speaker 1>of OXFAM requesting additional support for foreign aid, and I

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<v Speaker 1>kind of got my head handed to me because the

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<v Speaker 1>people stepping up into these leadership roles did not see

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<v Speaker 1>this connection between our security and the security of these

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<v Speaker 1>people in Ethiopia.

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<v Speaker 2>Jim, this might be a rhetorical question. Why, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>for the for the rational, compassionate mind, the conscientious mind,

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<v Speaker 2>say it's a win win situation. They get some, we

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<v Speaker 2>get some. Everybody's happened in the end, what's the issue

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<v Speaker 2>with that? Like, again, maybe it's rhetorical, but why, what's

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<v Speaker 2>the rational Well, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Think the challenge for some of the senators who spoke

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<v Speaker 1>up was they needed to be seen wanted to be

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<v Speaker 1>seen as supporting America first. And this is money that

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<v Speaker 1>was going to, you know, to farmers in a foreign country.

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<v Speaker 1>Not that they were that they were US farmers producing

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<v Speaker 1>coffee that competed with them, but you know, going to

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<v Speaker 1>another country and there could have been money that could

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<v Speaker 1>have gone to you know, American farmers. So they failed

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<v Speaker 1>to see that, you know that that critical connection. It

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't a huge amount of money relatively speaking, but you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it probably helped stave off you know, the kindind of

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<v Speaker 1>upset and uh instability that we see in that part

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<v Speaker 1>of the world now. And you know, I think played

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<v Speaker 1>a very very important role. It's not to say that

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<v Speaker 1>you know, Americans, American agriculture doesn't need support. It does.

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<v Speaker 1>American agriculture benefits from the work that the US Department

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<v Speaker 1>Agriculture provides. I worked at us DA, you know, during

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<v Speaker 1>the not the Obama administration, during the Clinton administration and

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<v Speaker 1>and we worked very closely with people in American agriculture

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<v Speaker 1>to help them secure their farms, produce soil erosion and

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<v Speaker 1>loss of you know, you know, of the landscapes that

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<v Speaker 1>they needed to produce the crops they were producing. We

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<v Speaker 1>worked with them in a whole host of ways. I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't see a conflict between you know, providing some support

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<v Speaker 1>for farm producers or coffee and providing funding to support

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<v Speaker 1>and protect American farmlands and wetlands and the wildlife associated

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<v Speaker 1>with that. Seemed to me it went hand in hand,

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<v Speaker 1>but they don't have to be. There was some rhetorical

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<v Speaker 1>pushback on that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Jim, I want to talk you and I also

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<v Speaker 2>worked for a huge corporation for twenty years when I

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<v Speaker 2>was at CBS, and you and the government and DEI

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<v Speaker 2>played an important role in both of those corporations diversity,

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<v Speaker 2>equity and inclusion, which I always saw overall as a

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<v Speaker 2>positive thing. But the mindset seems to be changing for

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<v Speaker 2>some reason. Again, your thoughts on that. Having been exposed

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<v Speaker 2>to the best of it, and yet people seem to

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<v Speaker 2>choose to look at the worst of it, why.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, it's it's hard to address that I

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<v Speaker 1>think we all, all Americans probably have families that have

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<v Speaker 1>a i'll say diverse view on DEI. You know, the

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<v Speaker 1>more recent emphasis on DEI, I would say of the

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<v Speaker 1>last fifteen twenty years, you know, kind of led to

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<v Speaker 1>a flare up, and you know it was exacerbated by

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<v Speaker 1>sex change operations, and maybe the highlight was, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>what were former men competing against women in swimming in

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<v Speaker 1>other pursuits. You know, I understand that upset and I

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<v Speaker 1>think people, you know, could find ways to address that issue.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, it's it's it's become a lightning rod.

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<v Speaker 1>I think because people feel friends, they feel like they're

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<v Speaker 1>not going to get resources, or they're going to have

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<v Speaker 1>to deal with someone you know, who was who was

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<v Speaker 1>a man you know, six months ago and is a

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<v Speaker 1>woman today. Perhaps I don't believe. I grew up in

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<v Speaker 1>a liberal family, believe me, you know, policemen and firemen

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<v Speaker 1>and carpenters. But you know, it doesn't upset me as

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<v Speaker 1>much as it seems to upset a lot of other people.

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<v Speaker 1>And and that the issues athletics, for example, can be addressed.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, President Trump has seized on this and

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<v Speaker 1>used it as a as a you know, as a cudgel,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, to to amplify you know, the divisions, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, in in American society. And it's really really

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<v Speaker 1>I think unfortunate. You can have your own view of

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<v Speaker 1>the I but you know, I think, you know, America

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<v Speaker 1>should support h as many people as we can. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>for many, many years we doubled the issue of racism.

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<v Speaker 1>We still deal with it today, you know, but we've

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<v Speaker 1>we found a way through that. And and I think

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<v Speaker 1>we just need to sit down and have conversations about

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<v Speaker 1>find our way through these other difficult issues because it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's you know, there's an old saying in diversity is stability.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that applies to the United States and politics

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<v Speaker 1>as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think people have to stop looking at it

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<v Speaker 2>as a situation of a handout and more of a

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<v Speaker 2>hand up. If we help each other along the way,

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<v Speaker 2>we can get somewhere. And that was always the spirit

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<v Speaker 2>of it. Why that got perverted? I have no idea, Jim.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to shift gears a little bit too, to

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<v Speaker 2>go truly into one of your specialties, which is the environment.

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<v Speaker 2>And you must be mortified by Trump's decisions regarding drilling

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<v Speaker 2>water rights fracking of public lands and space. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>they'll show a beautiful picture of a pristine Alaskan wilderness

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<v Speaker 2>and with the idea that, oh, this is perfect for drilling,

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<v Speaker 2>and people go for it. It's been sold as necessary.

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<v Speaker 2>That's got to make someone like you, who so realizes

420
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:53.200
<v Speaker 2>the importance of open space in such a broad sense,

421
00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:55.000
<v Speaker 2>that's got to be anathema to you.

422
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.599
<v Speaker 1>It's even simpler than that. I mean, it is not necessary.

423
00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:03.359
<v Speaker 1>I mean, Americans, I doubt realize that the United States

424
00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:08.400
<v Speaker 1>is a net exporter of petroleum products of gasoline, et cetera.

425
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:13.279
<v Speaker 1>And so it's not like, you know, we're desperate for

426
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:17.480
<v Speaker 1>uh and and need access to every drop of oil

427
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:21.759
<v Speaker 1>and uh, you know, every cubic feet of gas that

428
00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:26.640
<v Speaker 1>we can access. I mean, I think the oil and

429
00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:32.480
<v Speaker 1>gas industry has used this effectively to kind of get

430
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:36.440
<v Speaker 1>what they wish in terms of access to lands and resources.

431
00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:41.559
<v Speaker 1>But in my role in the Obama administration working with

432
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:46.720
<v Speaker 1>the Bureau of Land Management in the Department of Interior,

433
00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:52.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, I worked on issues affecting the protection of

434
00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:57.640
<v Speaker 1>natural resources and oil and gas across the West. You know,

435
00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:04.039
<v Speaker 1>there was a there's a species of birds that that

436
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:10.359
<v Speaker 1>is threatened across the western landscapes. And the bird just

437
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:14.720
<v Speaker 1>happens to like to nest in places where oil and

438
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:18.839
<v Speaker 1>gas people like to drill as well. And over two

439
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:22.519
<v Speaker 1>and a half years, we worked very closely with the

440
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:26.559
<v Speaker 1>western governors, We worked with wildlife biologists, we work with

441
00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:30.039
<v Speaker 1>the you know, conservation community, to try to find some

442
00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:35.839
<v Speaker 1>compromise to protect the greatest age grouse, which is what

443
00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:38.720
<v Speaker 1>the species is, that's that's threatened, and and and a

444
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:43.519
<v Speaker 1>compromise was struck, which hopefully will stand. It was completed

445
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:46.720
<v Speaker 1>after I left office. But you know, it provided a

446
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:52.960
<v Speaker 1>means to conserve a species while allowing you know, oil

447
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.160
<v Speaker 1>and gas to continue to be produced. It's unfortunate that,

448
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:01.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, mister Trump, excuse me, President Trump, you know, uh,

449
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:06.839
<v Speaker 1>likes to say drill, baby, drill and promote oil and

450
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:10.559
<v Speaker 1>gas production as if you know that's going to benefit Americans,

451
00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:13.200
<v Speaker 1>as if it's going to bring you know, prices for

452
00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:17.200
<v Speaker 1>oil and gas way way down, not if we keep exporting.

453
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:21.039
<v Speaker 1>It isn't. If he wants to reduce the prices for

454
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:23.880
<v Speaker 1>oil and gas for Americans, he should put he should

455
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:27.000
<v Speaker 1>put a cap on exports. He's not going to do that.

456
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:31.440
<v Speaker 1>That goes without saying because some of his biggest funders

457
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:34.519
<v Speaker 1>for his campaign from the oil and gas industry. But

458
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:37.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, this is a classic example of, you know,

459
00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:41.039
<v Speaker 1>of an issue that can be resolved if reasonable people

460
00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:43.799
<v Speaker 1>are willing to sit down, work together to address these

461
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:48.079
<v Speaker 1>issues instead of misrepresent them and and kind of inflate

462
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:51.240
<v Speaker 1>the anger that need not be there. And and you know,

463
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:55.200
<v Speaker 1>this is Trump's specialty. Excuse me, this is the President's specialty.

464
00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:58.359
<v Speaker 1>And you know we saw it in New York, you

465
00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:00.599
<v Speaker 1>and I did growing up in that area, you know,

466
00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:05.640
<v Speaker 1>and uh, you know, it's unfortunate that you know, now

467
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:10.480
<v Speaker 1>many many more Americans are going to be exposed to this.

468
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:14.119
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, we are. We're in a great

469
00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:17.519
<v Speaker 1>position in the United States. And I think our democracy

470
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:19.640
<v Speaker 1>works well when people are willing to sit down and

471
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:22.920
<v Speaker 1>work together. And I've had many experiences in doing so

472
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:26.359
<v Speaker 1>and achieving outcomes that that I hope will continue to last.

473
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:33.519
<v Speaker 1>That there were a function of dialogue, discussion, you know,

474
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:36.119
<v Speaker 1>and compromise, not retribution.

475
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.119
<v Speaker 2>You know, Jim, you and I are both fort Lee kids,

476
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:44.119
<v Speaker 2>as we say, fort Lee f A W T kids,

477
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:47.759
<v Speaker 2>And uh so we're we're at a time we're no

478
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:53.000
<v Speaker 2>strangers to to the organized crime model. We knew had

479
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:56.279
<v Speaker 2>friends whose whose families were involved in it, so we

480
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:59.960
<v Speaker 2>were kind of around it. And uh, I see start

481
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:05.359
<v Speaker 2>similarities between what's going on at the topest echelons of

482
00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:11.440
<v Speaker 2>our government being run as a criminal enterprise. It's absolutely amazing.

483
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:14.640
<v Speaker 2>I want so, you know, and it's interesting to see.

484
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:16.680
<v Speaker 2>And we were talking a little bit about it before

485
00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:20.720
<v Speaker 2>we came to record. It similarly reminds me of like

486
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Tony Soprano or Vito Corleone, these powerful and somewhat evil men,

487
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:32.200
<v Speaker 2>but yet are somehow respected because they're seen as powerful

488
00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:37.400
<v Speaker 2>and strong and yet somehow honorable and doing so, they

489
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:40.400
<v Speaker 2>really missed the point. There is no honor there ultimately,

490
00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:43.000
<v Speaker 2>So some of your thoughts, they said, you know, you

491
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:45.640
<v Speaker 2>and I being around and especially for someone like me

492
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:49.319
<v Speaker 2>who is Sicilian and sometimes people and you talk about

493
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:52.680
<v Speaker 2>being stereotyped. The first thing that ask me is like, oh, yeah,

494
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:54.400
<v Speaker 2>who in New York family is the mafia? And I'll

495
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:59.759
<v Speaker 2>immediately say no one, because we're proud of denying that.

496
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:04.240
<v Speaker 2>Yet there are people there who seem value in what's

497
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:08.279
<v Speaker 2>happening in the so called strong arm arm tactics.

498
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:13.680
<v Speaker 1>Your thoughts. Well, I, you know, I can only say

499
00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:17.519
<v Speaker 1>that in many respects, it seems to me that the

500
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:25.400
<v Speaker 1>first steps taken by President Trump are more reflective of

501
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:30.079
<v Speaker 1>a dawn of a leader of you know, or an

502
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:35.319
<v Speaker 1>organized crime syndicate than uh than the leader of a democracy.

503
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:40.519
<v Speaker 1>You know, basically shutting people down, you know, telling them

504
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:42.960
<v Speaker 1>not to report to work, You're telling them he's going

505
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:47.599
<v Speaker 1>to fire them all, threatening them basically, as opposed to

506
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:51.240
<v Speaker 1>trying to understand what value they bring to the table,

507
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:54.519
<v Speaker 1>how they help Americans, how they can improve the extent

508
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:56.960
<v Speaker 1>to which they help the Americans. Yes, maybe you know,

509
00:33:57.079 --> 00:34:02.319
<v Speaker 1>some people need to retire. Maybe there are you know,

510
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:05.279
<v Speaker 1>circumstances where you could reduce the size of an organization

511
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:10.440
<v Speaker 1>but continue to realize the benefits of that organization, as

512
00:34:10.519 --> 00:34:14.800
<v Speaker 1>opposed to, you know, threatening not only Americans, but threatening

513
00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:18.760
<v Speaker 1>other countries. You know, let's how about Greenland? Oh, why

514
00:34:18.760 --> 00:34:21.639
<v Speaker 1>do we make Canada the fifty first state? I mean

515
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:27.280
<v Speaker 1>cot there. It's hard hard to imagine that a president

516
00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:33.440
<v Speaker 1>of the United States feels compelled to act this way,

517
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:39.199
<v Speaker 1>and of course he is, so I don't even know

518
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:43.360
<v Speaker 1>what the word is. So twisted the views and attitudes

519
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:48.719
<v Speaker 1>of his Republican colleagues in the Congress that they're afraid

520
00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:52.639
<v Speaker 1>the question in any of the moves he makes, and

521
00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:57.159
<v Speaker 1>add to that bringing in, you know, a private citizen.

522
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:01.280
<v Speaker 2>Perfectly, I want you to address that, because in your mind,

523
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:03.559
<v Speaker 2>that's you think, one of the biggest threats facing us

524
00:35:03.559 --> 00:35:08.760
<v Speaker 2>today and outside a citizen I e. Elon Musk looking

525
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:12.400
<v Speaker 2>into our private information being given access, it's virtually any

526
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:13.599
<v Speaker 2>information he wants.

527
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:17.159
<v Speaker 1>So well, let me let me be clear. You know,

528
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.039
<v Speaker 1>the government has always brought private individuals in as consultants

529
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:26.079
<v Speaker 1>to help, you know, and that's true for people from

530
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:29.920
<v Speaker 1>the private sector, certainly true for people from academia or

531
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:32.559
<v Speaker 1>private citizens to work for the governor government and then

532
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:36.239
<v Speaker 1>and they can be exceeded exceedingly helpful. But you know,

533
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:39.440
<v Speaker 1>they're not handed the keys to the bank and told

534
00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:45.000
<v Speaker 1>go at it. You know, they're not authorized to shut

535
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:50.400
<v Speaker 1>down entire agencies or departments, and they're certainly not authorized

536
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:53.599
<v Speaker 1>to threaten people, you know, if they don't, you know,

537
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:57.440
<v Speaker 1>agree to retire or leave the leave the agency, the

538
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:02.599
<v Speaker 1>organization from whom they work. This is it's it's more

539
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:08.360
<v Speaker 1>than absurd. It is incredibly threatening, not just to the

540
00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:11.719
<v Speaker 1>people who are impacted. Who are you know, my God,

541
00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:14.119
<v Speaker 1>have no idea whether they should take a buy out,

542
00:36:14.199 --> 00:36:18.119
<v Speaker 1>whether they shouldn't you know, whether or not, you know,

543
00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:22.000
<v Speaker 1>their retirement is going to be secure, you know, and

544
00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:24.239
<v Speaker 1>have no place to go. The fact that they that

545
00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:26.880
<v Speaker 1>they work for the government is not a sin, you know,

546
00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:30.519
<v Speaker 1>it's not punishable by death, though one would think so

547
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:33.480
<v Speaker 1>by the way the Trump people are treating these these people,

548
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:37.679
<v Speaker 1>these are public servants, and they're called public servants because

549
00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:41.159
<v Speaker 1>their job is to help the public, whether it's help

550
00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:48.719
<v Speaker 1>them manage their money, help them, you know, understand how

551
00:36:48.760 --> 00:36:54.599
<v Speaker 1>to you know, better access health care and support, or

552
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:58.639
<v Speaker 1>you know, whether it's how to improve their farm operations.

553
00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:04.960
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, the fact that these people government

554
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:10.519
<v Speaker 1>servants are treated like dirt is disgusting. I'll just say that.

555
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:13.880
<v Speaker 1>And I was a government servant. I understand that. And

556
00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:18.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, and I know many people who elected to

557
00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:22.719
<v Speaker 1>work for government because they wanted to help people and

558
00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:23.440
<v Speaker 1>serve people.

559
00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:29.119
<v Speaker 2>They've more money working elsewhere, often, oh many of them,

560
00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:29.760
<v Speaker 2>many of them.

561
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:32.440
<v Speaker 1>Instead, we bring the richest man in the world in.

562
00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:36.039
<v Speaker 1>We give him the keys to the safe basically and

563
00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:41.000
<v Speaker 1>access to this to the financial information of all of us,

564
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:44.960
<v Speaker 1>including you and me, you know, without any sideboards. I mean,

565
00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:47.639
<v Speaker 1>what the hell is going on here? And you know,

566
00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:50.840
<v Speaker 1>I just worry that the consequences, you know, for the

567
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:53.960
<v Speaker 1>rest of us will be dire. It certainly increases my

568
00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:57.719
<v Speaker 1>angst and uncertainty about what I should do with my

569
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:00.480
<v Speaker 1>retirement account, what I should do with my fine isn't

570
00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:02.559
<v Speaker 1>funding Where the hell is that money going to go?

571
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:06.159
<v Speaker 1>And why is Elon Musk, the richest man in the world,

572
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:09.360
<v Speaker 1>allowed to make the decision for himself. He's the richest

573
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:12.760
<v Speaker 1>man in the world. That's great, but we're not like him. Well,

574
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:15.599
<v Speaker 1>and you know, we have other considerations, not just how

575
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:17.039
<v Speaker 1>much money we have in our piggy bank.

576
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:19.360
<v Speaker 2>We're going to take a break in a second, but

577
00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:22.440
<v Speaker 2>I want people to ponder this. I thought of something,

578
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:26.480
<v Speaker 2>what approximately three hundred and fifty million people in the

579
00:38:26.840 --> 00:38:31.480
<v Speaker 2>country inclusive, approximately, if Elon Musk were to give every person,

580
00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:35.159
<v Speaker 2>not only every family, every person in this country a

581
00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:38.960
<v Speaker 2>million dollars, he'd still be the richest man in the world. So,

582
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:42.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, fathom man. Yet yet he's going in working

583
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:45.679
<v Speaker 2>on government efficiency and cutting small jobs at the janitor's

584
00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:49.039
<v Speaker 2>job and the cafeteria workers' job, et cetera, et cetera.

585
00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:50.480
<v Speaker 1>It's absolutely absurd.

586
00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Jim, We're going to take a quick break when we

587
00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:53.880
<v Speaker 2>come back out a little bit more to talk to

588
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:56.159
<v Speaker 2>talk a lot about the Republicans. I want to talk

589
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:58.119
<v Speaker 2>a little bit about the Democrats. What happened in the

590
00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:01.079
<v Speaker 2>last election, what can they do to improve? What does

591
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:05.360
<v Speaker 2>the future hold? So don't go anywhere. You don't go anywhere, audience,

592
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:07.920
<v Speaker 2>please don't go anywhere. We're having a great conversation. It's

593
00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:11.719
<v Speaker 2>certainly intelligent with my very special guest, Jim Lyons. I'm

594
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:14.599
<v Speaker 2>your host, Franklebono. This is Being Frank. We'll be back

595
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:17.559
<v Speaker 2>with much more right after these brief commercial messages. Please

596
00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:19.639
<v Speaker 2>don't go anywhere.

597
00:39:19.719 --> 00:39:22.199
<v Speaker 1>This is Hudson Riverradio dot.

598
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:40.480
<v Speaker 3>Com, Hudson Riverradio dot com. Hudson River Radio dot com.

599
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:47.679
<v Speaker 3>This is Hudson River Radio dot com. This is Hudson

600
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:51.760
<v Speaker 3>River Radio dot com.

601
00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:56.079
<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to Being Frank, the Intelligent Conversation podcast. Thanks

602
00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:59.840
<v Speaker 2>for sticking with us. I'm your host, Franklebono. Our engineer

603
00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:03.000
<v Speaker 2>is the mailman, mister Neil Richter, and our very special

604
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:05.760
<v Speaker 2>guest is Jim Lyons. We'll be joining us again in

605
00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:08.280
<v Speaker 2>just a few seconds. You know, we bring our audience

606
00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:11.239
<v Speaker 2>a fresh topic just about every week and stream from

607
00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:15.559
<v Speaker 2>Hudson River Radio, located in beautiful and historic Stony Point,

608
00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:18.840
<v Speaker 2>New York. But remember you can catch Being Frank anywhere

609
00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:22.559
<v Speaker 2>you get your favorite podcasts, And because every Being Frank

610
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:25.199
<v Speaker 2>is archived, you can listen to any of our programs

611
00:40:25.639 --> 00:40:28.320
<v Speaker 2>anytime you like. Find a link to Being Frank on

612
00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:32.159
<v Speaker 2>the Hudson River Radio Facebook page or at our website

613
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:37.400
<v Speaker 2>Hudsonriverradio dot com. Just click on our icon and you're there.

614
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:39.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay, welcome back.

615
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:43.719
<v Speaker 2>Jim Lyons. Jim is a lifelong friend. We literally grew

616
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:47.199
<v Speaker 2>up together. He was a member of worked for three

617
00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:51.000
<v Speaker 2>different presidents, and he's giving us a very very interesting perspective.

618
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:53.199
<v Speaker 2>And I know, Jim, you wanted to make a particular

619
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:59.199
<v Speaker 2>point about public service. Please do so.

620
00:40:57.199 --> 00:40:59.280
<v Speaker 1>Well the point I want to make, Frank, And you

621
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:03.639
<v Speaker 1>know this is as well as I You know, many

622
00:41:03.639 --> 00:41:09.840
<v Speaker 1>many Americans volunteer for the armed sort armed forces. Many

623
00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:15.559
<v Speaker 1>many Americans, uh, you know, volunteer to support their communities.

624
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:19.360
<v Speaker 1>And you know, our our dads were policemen. My dad

625
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:25.800
<v Speaker 1>was a volunteer fireman. He did other volunteer work. You know,

626
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:29.360
<v Speaker 1>it's it's an honorable thing, and and it it just

627
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:33.760
<v Speaker 1>troubles me, or maybe it puzzles me. You know why

628
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:41.079
<v Speaker 1>so many people who believe in public service seem supportive

629
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:46.760
<v Speaker 1>of someone who uh in the name of the President

630
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:52.679
<v Speaker 1>of the United States, denigrates public service, challenges people who serve,

631
00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:56.480
<v Speaker 1>treats them, and maybe even in the past, has called

632
00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:01.360
<v Speaker 1>them chumps and suckers. You know, America is great because

633
00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:06.360
<v Speaker 1>Americans work together. America is great because Americans see other

634
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:09.400
<v Speaker 1>Americans in need and they find ways to help them.

635
00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:13.760
<v Speaker 1>Government plays a role in that, maybe sometimes too big

636
00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:16.880
<v Speaker 1>a role, you know, but to hear the president, you know,

637
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:22.079
<v Speaker 1>for example, you know challenge the way in which the

638
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:24.519
<v Speaker 1>people who are impacted by flooding and you know in

639
00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:31.719
<v Speaker 1>the southeastern US is it's I'll just say frightening. I mean,

640
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:34.480
<v Speaker 1>people are trying to help people. Same is true for

641
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:40.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, the fire impacted areas in California. Now, I

642
00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:43.039
<v Speaker 1>recognize that many of those people have wealthy homes and

643
00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:45.400
<v Speaker 1>probably can take care of themselves, but in many instances,

644
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:51.119
<v Speaker 1>because of fires and other disasters, people do not, and

645
00:42:51.159 --> 00:42:55.519
<v Speaker 1>the government plays a critically important role in helping these people.

646
00:42:55.519 --> 00:42:59.880
<v Speaker 1>Get back on their feet, providing them not just financial assistance,

647
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:05.360
<v Speaker 1>but you know, advice, support through different programs and and really,

648
00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:09.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, does what I think all Americans seek to do,

649
00:43:09.079 --> 00:43:11.920
<v Speaker 1>which is help lift each other up. We should not

650
00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:19.800
<v Speaker 1>be bludgeoned by the notion now that we should We

651
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:23.320
<v Speaker 1>should kind of abandon that approach and just you know,

652
00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:27.519
<v Speaker 1>let everybody fight for their own survival because we're Americans.

653
00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:31.000
<v Speaker 1>That's that's that's how our country became the great country

654
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:33.920
<v Speaker 1>that it is. We were leave in lifting all boats.

655
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:36.639
<v Speaker 1>Right now we've got too many people trying to drill

656
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:37.920
<v Speaker 1>holes in those boats.

657
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:41.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, I just wrote something on my blog,

658
00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:45.639
<v Speaker 2>talked Frank about that and about what the American ethos is,

659
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:48.920
<v Speaker 2>or certainly was, and that was in taking pride and

660
00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:51.599
<v Speaker 2>helping one another. And where we need to look in

661
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:54.280
<v Speaker 2>the mirror and say what happened to that and get

662
00:43:54.280 --> 00:43:57.079
<v Speaker 2>it back as quickly as possible. Got a little bit

663
00:43:57.079 --> 00:43:59.519
<v Speaker 2>of time left, Jim and I feel it's important we

664
00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:02.400
<v Speaker 2>talk about the Democrats. Both you and your wife Jennifer,

665
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:05.920
<v Speaker 2>Paul Mary Or are players in the Democratic Party. Uh,

666
00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:09.119
<v Speaker 2>what happened? What's going on there? They seem to have

667
00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:13.360
<v Speaker 2>lost their way lost their message. Uh, you know, an

668
00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:16.880
<v Speaker 2>election everyone was predicting that close, but they would certainly win,

669
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:19.719
<v Speaker 2>and that didn't happen. Why what happened?

670
00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:21.960
<v Speaker 1>And what is that? What is their future?

671
00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:23.440
<v Speaker 2>Well?

672
00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:25.199
<v Speaker 1>I got to say, frank if I knew the answer

673
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:29.119
<v Speaker 1>to that, I'd be a very wealthy consultant. And I

674
00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:33.760
<v Speaker 1>chu and me both, and nor is my wife. Just

675
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:38.920
<v Speaker 1>to be clear, you know, I think a number of

676
00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:47.800
<v Speaker 1>things hurt us. Certainly, you know President Biden's decline, if

677
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:52.400
<v Speaker 1>you will, in the latter part of his tendre in

678
00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:55.679
<v Speaker 1>his desire to run for re election in spite of

679
00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:57.800
<v Speaker 1>the fact that many people thought he should not.

680
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:02.039
<v Speaker 2>Was it probably additional from the beginning that was my thought.

681
00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:06.920
<v Speaker 1>But I think Kamala Harris, who have a great deal

682
00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:10.639
<v Speaker 1>of respect for and by the way, her husband is

683
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:15.840
<v Speaker 1>is a guy from Jersey, great guy. Kamala Harris did

684
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:20.440
<v Speaker 1>her best, I think too, you know, pick up the

685
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:24.400
<v Speaker 1>pace and uh and present you know, a positive front.

686
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:27.880
<v Speaker 1>And frankly didn't lose by very very much, but it

687
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:31.880
<v Speaker 1>was enough and we see the consequences now wholesale change

688
00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:38.360
<v Speaker 1>simply because of the small margin between winning and losing.

689
00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:42.639
<v Speaker 1>I don't think many Americans really thought that was possible,

690
00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:46.320
<v Speaker 1>and you know, for whatever reason, they elected not to

691
00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:50.079
<v Speaker 1>vote for her, but instead elected to vote for for

692
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:53.440
<v Speaker 1>President Trump. So you know, we have to deal with,

693
00:45:53.719 --> 00:45:57.079
<v Speaker 1>you know, with the consequences and try to find a way.

694
00:45:57.159 --> 00:46:03.400
<v Speaker 1>I think too, I'll say it really make America great again,

695
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:08.559
<v Speaker 1>not by denigrating public servants, not by threatening you know,

696
00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:15.599
<v Speaker 1>their future, not by challenging, you know, the commitment that

697
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:19.400
<v Speaker 1>people have, particularly government, to try to do their best

698
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:23.119
<v Speaker 1>to help all Americans. You know, we've got to recognize,

699
00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:26.599
<v Speaker 1>you know, that we are all Americans, and I think,

700
00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:31.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, most Americans want this country to not just survive,

701
00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:33.360
<v Speaker 1>but to thrive and be the best country in the world.

702
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:36.800
<v Speaker 1>I just I was just going to say, I just

703
00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:39.440
<v Speaker 1>I just don't feel like the messages coming from the

704
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:45.119
<v Speaker 1>White House, their initial actions, and the consequences reflect that

705
00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:53.079
<v Speaker 1>view that you know, America, America and Americans are great individuals,

706
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:56.159
<v Speaker 1>a great country. You know, we're not in that bad

707
00:46:56.199 --> 00:46:58.639
<v Speaker 1>of shape. But if you were to listen to President Trump,

708
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:00.920
<v Speaker 1>you would think that we're on our last leg, and

709
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:01.960
<v Speaker 1>that's just not true.

710
00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:06.000
<v Speaker 2>What I'm curious about one last question, Jim, as we're

711
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:08.719
<v Speaker 2>starting to get lead on time is how did the

712
00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:13.639
<v Speaker 2>GOP manage to usurp what had always been the Democrats message,

713
00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:16.360
<v Speaker 2>which is, if you vote for us, working people, if

714
00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:20.320
<v Speaker 2>you vote for us, We're going to make your life better. Somehow,

715
00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:24.199
<v Speaker 2>it seems the Democrats seems to have lost that message

716
00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:26.960
<v Speaker 2>somewhere along the way. Why, how how can they get

717
00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:27.400
<v Speaker 2>it back?

718
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:31.360
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think there are a lot of people trying

719
00:47:31.400 --> 00:47:34.159
<v Speaker 1>to figure that out right now. Frank And if I

720
00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:37.119
<v Speaker 1>had the answer for that, I would be a wealthy consultant.

721
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:46.840
<v Speaker 1>I just I feel like, I feel like what has

722
00:47:46.920 --> 00:47:52.480
<v Speaker 1>happened is that we have let the other team use

723
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:58.480
<v Speaker 1>our playbook and you know, use our message, even though

724
00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:01.760
<v Speaker 1>their intention is not, UH is not to do so

725
00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:05.159
<v Speaker 1>I was I was going to say, not unlike what

726
00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:07.639
<v Speaker 1>we saw on the Super Bowl. We're Philadelphia. Took it

727
00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:11.960
<v Speaker 1>to Kansas City. But Philadelphia, even though we're from Jersey,

728
00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:16.119
<v Speaker 1>Philadelphia is a great place. So and UH and I

729
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:20.679
<v Speaker 1>and I think you know what's happening is that we

730
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:26.960
<v Speaker 1>need to recapture the vitality and the creativity that you know,

731
00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:30.360
<v Speaker 1>Democrats bring to the table. You know, the problem is

732
00:48:31.159 --> 00:48:36.480
<v Speaker 1>we are not having conversations we've we were having confrontations.

733
00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.519
<v Speaker 1>People have kind of hold to their own corners and

734
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:42.639
<v Speaker 1>they don't seem to want to talk about, you know,

735
00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:44.800
<v Speaker 1>where we can meet in the middle. And I think,

736
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:51.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, that is incredibly destructive in our communities, for

737
00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:53.559
<v Speaker 1>our country, and I see it, you know, in in

738
00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:56.559
<v Speaker 1>our families, and that just can't continue. I mean, you know,

739
00:48:56.599 --> 00:49:01.800
<v Speaker 1>the keys are, you know, conversation, and collaborate and compromise.

740
00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:05.000
<v Speaker 1>If we can follow those three c's and find ways

741
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:07.440
<v Speaker 1>to help each other, whether it's you know, little things

742
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:11.239
<v Speaker 1>in your community or you know, things you know at

743
00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:14.320
<v Speaker 1>a greater level, joining an organization, working to help others

744
00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:18.880
<v Speaker 1>who need help, you know, supporting people who aren't as

745
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:20.800
<v Speaker 1>well off as you and I are, and we're not

746
00:49:20.840 --> 00:49:22.880
<v Speaker 1>nearly as well off as others. Then I think we

747
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:25.599
<v Speaker 1>can make a difference. But we've got to stop, you know,

748
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:29.239
<v Speaker 1>fighting first and then thinking to ask questions later.

749
00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:33.519
<v Speaker 2>Jim, I was going to ask another question, but I

750
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:35.920
<v Speaker 2>prefer to end it right there on a positive note,

751
00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:39.880
<v Speaker 2>and it is a positive note. We failure is not

752
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:42.480
<v Speaker 2>an option. We have to get through this, and I

753
00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:45.519
<v Speaker 2>think if we stick together, keep the lines open, the

754
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:50.159
<v Speaker 2>dialogue continuing, have some intelligent conversation like we had today,

755
00:49:50.519 --> 00:49:54.599
<v Speaker 2>we can get through this final thoughts.

756
00:49:56.159 --> 00:49:59.440
<v Speaker 1>No, I think we have a long road ahead of us,

757
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.239
<v Speaker 1>and I would encourage people, listeners, particularly from the community

758
00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:06.800
<v Speaker 1>you know whe're from and from you know, from the

759
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:09.719
<v Speaker 1>Hudson Valley region. You know a lot of smart people,

760
00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:13.519
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people who have a long history there,

761
00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:19.559
<v Speaker 1>and you know, in a community that really, you know,

762
00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:23.639
<v Speaker 1>attracts not just visitors, but about others who want to

763
00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:25.719
<v Speaker 1>live there, because people do know how to talk to

764
00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:28.920
<v Speaker 1>one another, they do care about each other, they care

765
00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:32.840
<v Speaker 1>about their environment, and and I think it could be

766
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:37.800
<v Speaker 1>a model for ways to bring larger communities and ultimately

767
00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:42.920
<v Speaker 1>the country together. That kind of dialogue, that kind of environment,

768
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:48.000
<v Speaker 1>that mindset is what's critical to changing the path or on,

769
00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:50.400
<v Speaker 1>because the path are on is a destructive one and

770
00:50:50.440 --> 00:50:53.159
<v Speaker 1>we need to get back to being a democracy again.

771
00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:56.440
<v Speaker 2>Jim Lyons, I want to thank you so much for

772
00:50:56.480 --> 00:51:00.920
<v Speaker 2>your intelligent conversation here on being Frank. You welcome, my friend.

773
00:51:02.599 --> 00:51:07.239
<v Speaker 1>Thanks Rank, I enjoy the conversation and let's hope better

774
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:07.960
<v Speaker 1>days are ahead.

775
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:10.800
<v Speaker 2>We'll get together soon, you know. Of course, we offer

776
00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:13.119
<v Speaker 2>special thanks to our listeners who take time to give

777
00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:15.800
<v Speaker 2>us a voice in their lives. Remember, you offer a

778
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:19.480
<v Speaker 2>fresh topic just about every week. Catch us wherever and

779
00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:24.559
<v Speaker 2>whenever you get your favorite podcasts. That includes Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio,

780
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:27.360
<v Speaker 2>Speaker and all the others. Check us out on the

781
00:51:27.400 --> 00:51:30.400
<v Speaker 2>Hudson River Radio Facebook page. Like us and leave us

782
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:33.920
<v Speaker 2>a comment, and we ask you to consider sharing Being

783
00:51:34.039 --> 00:51:36.679
<v Speaker 2>Frank with others. You know, always leave you with two

784
00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:39.559
<v Speaker 2>little tidbits, nuggets, whatever you want to call them. One

785
00:51:39.679 --> 00:51:43.559
<v Speaker 2>slogan and then some great original music. First, a little anecdote,

786
00:51:43.639 --> 00:51:47.199
<v Speaker 2>and here it is. Benjamin Franklin was leaving the Constitutional

787
00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:50.079
<v Speaker 2>Congress when he was approached by a woman the name

788
00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:54.119
<v Speaker 2>of Elizabeth Willing Powell, and she asked, well, doctor, what

789
00:51:54.280 --> 00:51:57.760
<v Speaker 2>have we got a republic or a monarchy? And of

790
00:51:57.800 --> 00:52:02.599
<v Speaker 2>course Franklin answered, a republic if you can keep it. Well,

791
00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:05.599
<v Speaker 2>we've been challenged. Can we keep it all? Right? Here's

792
00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:08.840
<v Speaker 2>some great music by my friend Steve bag It's called

793
00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:11.480
<v Speaker 2>Poor You. I think you'll enjoy it very much. I

794
00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:15.360
<v Speaker 2>like it for our engineer, the mailman, mister Neil Richter.

795
00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:17.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm your host, Frank Lobono. We hope to see you

796
00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:21.039
<v Speaker 2>on the next Being Frank.

797
00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:34.159
<v Speaker 4>I don't care you're wasted on the county line.

798
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:39.159
<v Speaker 2>The art you have?

799
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:46.199
<v Speaker 4>You need wine? Now are you?

800
00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:54.320
<v Speaker 2>Are? You got it?

801
00:52:54.719 --> 00:53:03.880
<v Speaker 4>Thanks? And when you are being carry.

802
00:53:05.800 --> 00:53:08.400
<v Speaker 1>Some mothers fores s.

803
00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:14.960
<v Speaker 4>Right here, I'll take off on your baby.

804
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:19.239
<v Speaker 1>Its whiskey because you never know.

805
00:53:20.239 --> 00:53:28.079
<v Speaker 4>And I might appear looking out of that window.

806
00:53:30.079 --> 00:53:32.079
<v Speaker 1>I can't see it all.

807
00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:36.079
<v Speaker 4>I enjoy the ride.

808
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:40.880
<v Speaker 1>I can't still see you stranded.

809
00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:45.880
<v Speaker 4>And as that train goes by, my art starts to

810
00:53:46.000 --> 00:54:04.679
<v Speaker 4>slide for you. For you got beat as to do?

811
00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:08.079
<v Speaker 4>You tell me? You know what's good? End to wait for?

812
00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:13.960
<v Speaker 4>Tell me? You tell me that you don't lie? Right?

813
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:18.719
<v Speaker 1>You tell me no, it's good?

814
00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:20.440
<v Speaker 2>End up care for.

815
00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:28.280
<v Speaker 4>When the brough that you have to feel you don't

816
00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:29.920
<v Speaker 4>mind home over.

817
00:54:42.639 --> 00:54:42.679
<v Speaker 2>It?

818
00:54:45.880 --> 00:54:55.719
<v Speaker 4>Or what are you? You got bad things to tell you?

819
00:54:56.760 --> 00:55:03.880
<v Speaker 4>You got that things got that wait, we got the

820
00:55:03.880 --> 00:55:04.639
<v Speaker 4>wit to

821
00:55:13.719 --> 00:55:17.800
<v Speaker 1>Hudson River Radio dot com mm hm