Speaker 1: I'm Ali. I came out after twenty years of marriage
Speaker 1: and I have three kids.
Speaker 2: I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
Speaker 2: out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 1: This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
Speaker 1: and victories that come with it.
Speaker 2: When coming out feels like the end of the world,
Speaker 2: but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 1: This is the Lesbian Chronicles. The Lesbian Chronicle. Why is
Speaker 1: it always so scary?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I thought we were going to say it.
Speaker 2: For a second. I was like, oh, no, she has
Speaker 2: stage fright.
Speaker 1: On stage fright. I wish I did have stage fright.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm playing around with a ring light and
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm getting it right. What do
Speaker 1: you think? I mean?
Speaker 2: I could tell when you turned it off a minute ago.
Speaker 1: Well, hello, pre fourth of July.
Speaker 2: I know it's fourth of July weekend. It's a big
Speaker 2: weekend here in Peachtree City.
Speaker 1: Is it okay? What do y'all do?
Speaker 2: Go all out on Saturday? It's like a parade in
Speaker 2: the morning, which is a great parade. I love it.
Speaker 2: And it's kind of tough, you know, like these days
Speaker 2: to be like fully patriotic, but I'm still trying to
Speaker 2: be like I can embrace it for a day for
Speaker 2: the kids.
Speaker 1: Do it for the kids.
Speaker 2: There's a big parade in the morning, then we usually
Speaker 2: go swimming, and then fireworks at night. So nice all in, Yeah, okay, nice,
Speaker 2: I'm excited. You you're going to Florida.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to Florida, which Red just told me
Speaker 1: that it's like supposedly the airport tomorrow is going to
Speaker 1: be complete and utter mayhem. Yeah he heard, I know.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna have together. We actually have a pretty
Speaker 1: early ish flight and so maybe that's helpful. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but we're just going to get up really early. He
Speaker 1: and I are meeting Tatum and Owen in Sarasota and
Speaker 1: then we'll be there for the fourth for four or
Speaker 1: four nights.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I would say, get there early, don't do your typical.
Speaker 1: My typical run in at the last I won't because
Speaker 1: I noticed on my flight there are no available seats. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm like, if I miss it, I'm not in
Speaker 1: a good way.
Speaker 2: And with the fourth being on a Saturday, I guarantee
Speaker 2: you so many people are doing the Thursday through Monday
Speaker 2: weekend yeah, so yeah, it's going to.
Speaker 1: Be I can't disappoint my parents. They're so excited. We're
Speaker 1: all going to be there, My cousins, my kids, my
Speaker 1: sister and her husband are obviously lived there, but she's
Speaker 1: got like all her people in one spot like this
Speaker 1: one time every year, and I know that's like my
Speaker 1: parents like thrill of a lifetime.
Speaker 2: So I'm sure there because this is I've been in
Speaker 2: Panama City Beach for the fourth before and like people
Speaker 2: set off fireworks like crazy. There is the same.
Speaker 1: It's totally the same. But keep in mind, now we
Speaker 1: used to be on the beach and now we have
Speaker 1: no The hurricanes did that, so we're now in a
Speaker 1: new spot, so we don't know really yet what the
Speaker 1: fireworks are going to be like. So I think it'll
Speaker 1: be great no matter what. We'll find them. But it's
Speaker 1: not going to be like the old days where you're
Speaker 1: just like playing in the beach and it was just
Speaker 1: such a world and my kids grew up in that.
Speaker 1: I'm like, now that's not the case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is so nice to be able to just
Speaker 2: sit on like your porch or your balcony and watch
Speaker 2: fireworks like I know, so much fun.
Speaker 1: But last year, not last year, but the year before.
Speaker 1: We were It was July fourth, and the fireworks were
Speaker 1: going off and some guys were fishing off the beach
Speaker 1: while we were like doing Fourth of July with our coolers,
Speaker 1: and they caught a massive tarpain. Oh, they're like, fight,
Speaker 1: have you ever seen somebody catch a tarpin off the beach? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: I mean you can't take your eyes off it. I
Speaker 1: mean it was just like insane. I mean, nobody cared
Speaker 1: about the fireworks. They were just like watching this turpin
Speaker 1: come in.
Speaker 2: And that's pretty big, right, huge?
Speaker 1: I mean it was I can't even guess it was massive,
Speaker 1: but he did it for a long time.
Speaker 2: It was like surprising off the beach. Yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker 2: I've seen people catch sharks off of beach.
Speaker 1: I don't need to see that to me. I'm already
Speaker 1: so scared.
Speaker 2: I caught a shark really not off the beach, but
Speaker 2: like deep sea fishing in Panama City.
Speaker 1: Like it was pretty small, but it was still like still, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's totally shocking.
Speaker 2: When I'm reeling it in there like it's a shark,
Speaker 2: I was like, wait, what what, I don't know that
Speaker 2: was an option.
Speaker 1: I always tell the story that like by my parents' house,
Speaker 1: there's a guy who has like a seaplane and he
Speaker 1: just flies around down on the island. And he was
Speaker 1: saying that, like if you could see what he sees
Speaker 1: from up there, He's like, you would never get in
Speaker 1: the water. And so I'm like, why did you tell
Speaker 1: me that? Because now I know, Yeah, I now the kids.
Speaker 1: Now you've ruined it for me.
Speaker 2: I used to go like way out and like second sandbar,
Speaker 2: and I don't do it anymore.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, now that I know, so I'm too chicken.
Speaker 1: Too chicken. I've got a friend right now who's out
Speaker 1: on a one of those like chartered trips where you
Speaker 1: like go out on the boat. Actually they're not chartering it.
Speaker 1: They're taking the boat, but they're out like in starting
Speaker 1: in Saint Martin's and going Saint martin and going to
Speaker 1: all these like crazy places Saint Bart's, like stopping at
Speaker 1: each one and going by boat. And I just it
Speaker 1: like lit up in me. That is a trip I
Speaker 1: am desperate to do. That sounds like I just live
Speaker 1: on a boat for like a week. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2: I would love that, But I also get sea stick.
Speaker 1: So I'm hearing this more and more from people like
Speaker 1: you can't take a drama, meine and get with the program.
Speaker 2: Well that's what I did when I went deep sea
Speaker 2: fishing in Key West. It was the roughest seas I've
Speaker 2: been in on a pretty small boat, and I ended
Speaker 2: up taking a dramamine. It was not working. I also
Speaker 2: was very unprepared. I did not have food. I barely
Speaker 2: brought water. I was a moron that weekend. But I
Speaker 2: took one dramamine didn't work. I took the second because
Speaker 2: I was like green and I was basically napping in
Speaker 2: between my turn, like miserable. So yeah, but dramamine did help,
Speaker 2: but I probably I needed to take it before I
Speaker 2: even got on the boat. So but it's one of
Speaker 2: those things where it's like I want to do the activity.
Speaker 2: I love it to blast, but my body is going
Speaker 2: to fight me.
Speaker 1: I don't get I guess sometimes, but it has to
Speaker 1: be really nuts for me to be sea sick.
Speaker 2: This was nuts. This was like back and forth the
Speaker 2: whole entire time, and it was like an eight hour day.
Speaker 1: Oh god, Okay. I like the idea of like island hopping,
Speaker 1: because then it's like just when you're getting tired of
Speaker 1: being on the boat. You're stopping at some eat spot
Speaker 1: and like having drinks or eating or whatever, and I
Speaker 1: like to read or just like be quiet. Like I
Speaker 1: could see where it would be fun to just be
Speaker 1: out on the water for days on end, cooking dinner
Speaker 1: on the boat. You don't know, that just sounds it's
Speaker 1: like camping on steroids with a real bed.
Speaker 2: With a Yeah, like maybe better than camping.
Speaker 1: It's way better than camping. I mean, but the stars
Speaker 1: like all of it. I don't know. I'm just like
Speaker 1: magically like thinking. But ever since she went, I'm like,
Speaker 1: this is just I want to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very cool.
Speaker 1: Let's get gay.
Speaker 2: Let's get gay. You said we have an email? Yeah,
Speaker 2: so were allowed to read the email? Did they give?
Speaker 1: I think I can. If I can make it kind
Speaker 1: of vague, I can read it, I'll make it back. Okay,
Speaker 1: So she says, Hi, Ali and Melissa. I'm late in life.
Speaker 1: Coming up to almost a year being out publicly has
Speaker 1: been very confronting for me. There's a term I've heard
Speaker 1: second coming out that I really relate to, because it
Speaker 1: turns out so far the women I'm attracted to are
Speaker 1: not what I imagined or expected. They tend to be
Speaker 1: more masculine presenting and more obviously gay, and that has
Speaker 1: brought up a lot internally and externally for me, particularly
Speaker 1: around family, friends, and public perception. I would so love
Speaker 1: an episode on this, And then I told her I
Speaker 1: love this idea. I remember feeling that way with my catalyst.
Speaker 1: She was obviously gay, and it embarrassed me a little
Speaker 1: bit around my family and in the really early days.
Speaker 1: And of course now I am more masculine than I
Speaker 1: was back then, so obviously I've gotten comfortable with it.
Speaker 1: She does on to say, yes, it's been a challenge.
Speaker 1: I'm only just starting to feel okay about it. When
Speaker 1: I first came out, I did a lot of classic
Speaker 1: things like cutting my hair off blah blah blah. I
Speaker 1: also think finding my new aesthetic has been really challenging too.
Speaker 1: I felt I wanted to look the part, you know anyway,
Speaker 1: So it's such it is such an interesting journey. I
Speaker 1: think that part of the journey I am feeling. It
Speaker 1: feels kind of close to home for me right now,
Speaker 1: but bigger than that. I do recall my mom and
Speaker 1: dad like meeting my catalyst, like one time they met
Speaker 1: her they are feeling like I wish she didn't look
Speaker 1: so masked. And as I've gotten more mask I've thought
Speaker 1: about oftentimes meeting women's families and wondering if it's like
Speaker 1: if I'm embarrassing for them in some way because I
Speaker 1: look gay. Now. Sometimes sometimes I don't, but sometimes I do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: most of the time I do.
Speaker 2: Most of the time, you do?
Speaker 1: Ye, almost all the time I do. And so is
Speaker 1: that we cannot hide the gay walk. We cannot hide
Speaker 1: it at the cloud.
Speaker 2: I've had the gay walk since I was in high
Speaker 2: school or earlier than that.
Speaker 1: I know if I have the gay walk now do
Speaker 1: I Yeah, you do, I think, I.
Speaker 2: Think, but maybe not as bad as some of us,
Speaker 2: but it's there.
Speaker 1: I do think too. Like I've had friends say to
Speaker 1: me that like even like with their children, it's not
Speaker 1: just their parents, their children have a feeling around why
Speaker 1: are you dating such like mask women? Why can't you
Speaker 1: just pick like a really fem women and be two
Speaker 1: fem women like that seems more palatable right to people?
Speaker 1: And why is that? And then also like why is
Speaker 1: that not what is happening that that can't be the
Speaker 1: way for me at least?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think it's like very layered. You know,
Speaker 2: why is it.
Speaker 1: More palatable, Why is it more palatable to a mother
Speaker 1: or a child to wish you Melissa would date somebody
Speaker 1: who looks like a very femin lesbian. Why do they
Speaker 1: want that for you?
Speaker 2: I think it's one of those things where it's like
Speaker 2: like you're well, more digestible, you know, more acceptable, and
Speaker 2: it will more like they do okay, you know, I
Speaker 2: think there's a lot of people who are kind of
Speaker 2: operating under that, like not even realizing it, but they're
Speaker 2: doing a lot of things to fit in in life.
Speaker 2: You know, think about all like what the suburban moms.
Speaker 2: You know, whenever some new trend starts, they're all hopping
Speaker 2: on board. They all want to be accepted, and in
Speaker 2: a lot of ways, they all end up looking the same, you.
Speaker 1: Know, exactly the same.
Speaker 2: Like Lululemon is thriving here in Peachtree City because that's
Speaker 2: where all the women shop, you know, the Stanley cups,
Speaker 2: like I don't even know what cup is in style
Speaker 2: right now, but like those little like trendy things. It's
Speaker 2: like all part of like that mass being accepted. And
Speaker 2: I think when you know, you're already struggling to accept
Speaker 2: yourself and then you're like, Okay, I'm gay, but like, look,
Speaker 2: I'm dating someone who looks like everybody else, you know,
Speaker 2: like I fit in too. Like I think that's part
Speaker 2: of it, you know, what is it? Like?
Speaker 1: Why do I care what you do? I know I'm
Speaker 1: picking you, like why I'm picking you? So to my family,
Speaker 1: you're more palatable if you look one way. And I
Speaker 1: could honestly say my parents probably would fall into that catagory,
Speaker 1: like if they could choose for me, if I have
Speaker 1: to be gay, they would rather me pick someone really feminine.
Speaker 2: Right, and saying here, that was one of the things
Speaker 2: one of the very first things my mom said when
Speaker 2: I came out was only date the pretty ones.
Speaker 1: What the fuck does that even mean?
Speaker 2: Right? Like what but when does that?
Speaker 1: If you would to say to her to find that
Speaker 1: for me, she.
Speaker 2: Would say, the feminine girls, the ones that don't have
Speaker 2: short hair, the ones that aren't dressing Like what if.
Speaker 1: They're feminine and they're not attractive, feminine, plenty of them.
Speaker 2: So lipstick on a pig, right, doesn't fix the walk.
Speaker 2: So but like, I don't I think you know, we're
Speaker 2: also speaking being raised by parents that my parents are
Speaker 2: now in their eighties, you know, like the way you look,
Speaker 2: the perception is so drilled in their heads, and then
Speaker 2: it was before drilled in my head and yours too,
Speaker 2: I think to some extent. So I think that, you know,
Speaker 2: it's that internalized homophobia of it all, Like we can
Speaker 2: you can be accepting of being of people that are
Speaker 2: gay or whatever, but it's like, don't be too gay,
Speaker 2: too gay. It's kind of like the flamboyant gay man,
Speaker 2: you know, like people get really irritated by that, like that,
Speaker 2: why do you have to be so gay? Why are
Speaker 2: you so flamboyant when there's like plenty of like gay
Speaker 2: men that are not that way, right, But it's like
Speaker 2: different personalities, you know, it's true.
Speaker 1: I just wonder if, like Tatum got off Instagram a
Speaker 1: long time ago, like years ago, and I remember her
Speaker 1: saying that, like she was part of what she liked
Speaker 1: about not being on Instagram, and she's like, my style
Speaker 1: has gone so rogue because I have no I literally
Speaker 1: wear what I feel good in and she ends up
Speaker 1: looking great. But it's like she's like, my style is
Speaker 1: so rogue because I don't see anybody on socials get
Speaker 1: dressing like I don't have no sense of style anymore
Speaker 1: of what's in because I'm not on social media and
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was thinking about how like to
Speaker 1: her that was a bonus of like, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to end up looking like everybody else because I don't
Speaker 1: see even see what they're doing. Yeah, but I do
Speaker 1: remember like as a mom at my kids preschool, every
Speaker 1: mom at Saint Anne's preschool had the same Louis Vuitton
Speaker 1: big bag yep. And I remember like thinking like there's
Speaker 1: no value anymore in the bag because and every single
Speaker 1: person has it. It stops being this exclusive thing. Now
Speaker 1: it's just the masses of sheep all have the same bag.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So now now you've lost all the value there. There's
Speaker 1: value when there's less of it. Yeah, And so then
Speaker 1: it's like I don't know, like I think I would,
Speaker 1: I would get curious about that.
Speaker 2: I actually just saw a TikTok video because like a
Speaker 2: lot of I'm on like Japan TikTok right now, oh gosh,
Speaker 2: and a lot of people go over there to buy
Speaker 2: like designer stuff, yeah, because it's so much cheaper there.
Speaker 2: And this one video I saw, the woman was like
Speaker 2: I got there and saw it all like just kind
Speaker 2: of displayed out almost like in a like TJ Max
Speaker 2: kind of setting. Yeah, and she's like, get lost all
Speaker 2: the appeal, Like.
Speaker 1: It lost all the appeal.
Speaker 2: It's expensive because we've made it expensive in the United
Speaker 2: got it Like it's not that great, it's not that quality, right,
Speaker 2: It's just what everybody else is doing, And it's I
Speaker 2: feel like that's a huge, huge thing like for us
Speaker 2: as late in life. Life. One of the reasons why
Speaker 2: we're here is because we were trying to do what
Speaker 2: everybody else is doing, or I thought.
Speaker 1: You were gonna say the opposite. One of the reasons
Speaker 1: why we're here is.
Speaker 2: Because I'm saying why it took us so long? Yeah, yep,
Speaker 2: because I thought I was supposed to get married and
Speaker 2: have kids. You know, me today, I would have had
Speaker 2: a lot more put a lot more thought into what
Speaker 2: I wanted versus what I was everybody else in my
Speaker 2: life wanted for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or like defining what your body is supposed to be,
Speaker 1: or your makeup or your hair cut. You know, I
Speaker 1: mean there's a million reasons people cut their hair.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and that was another thing my mom said
Speaker 2: when I came out was don't cut your hair.
Speaker 1: Shut your hair. Yeah, that must have been so like ingrained.
Speaker 2: It wasn't even like on my radar to cut my hair.
Speaker 1: You know she was already thinking about it. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: does your mom say about my hair? Because she's so
Speaker 1: lovely to me, I want to go up to her
Speaker 1: and be like, say it to my face.
Speaker 2: Say it to my face. She would probably still say
Speaker 2: that your hair is like still feminine. I feel like.
Speaker 1: She's so loving to me when I have had like
Speaker 1: experiences with her, But now that I know she hates
Speaker 1: my hair.
Speaker 2: No, my mom is I will say that my mom
Speaker 2: is very sweet, very loving. She's very supportive. So I
Speaker 2: don't want to sit here and like dog on my mom.
Speaker 2: She's shocked me with how supportive she's been. And she
Speaker 2: and my dad have met a few people that I've dated,
Speaker 2: and they have been lovely to every single one in
Speaker 2: a way that I never would have expected. But I
Speaker 2: think they are a little bit like oh a girly one.
Speaker 1: Great girly one. Check. I was at a birthday party
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago in Florida with my mom
Speaker 1: and dad, with my very conservative family at large, and
Speaker 1: I thought one of the ways that they like are accepting.
Speaker 1: Is one of my cousin cousins, boy cousins, conservative boy cousins,
Speaker 1: came up to me and he's like, my wife cannot
Speaker 1: stop looking at her hair. She said, it's like inspiring
Speaker 1: her to cut her hair. And it's like, I think
Speaker 1: that was his way of saying, like, we don't care
Speaker 1: that you're I don't know, like I felt more it
Speaker 1: was not even about the hair anymore. It was more like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, you look good with short hair, and
Speaker 1: my wife now wants to cut her hair. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: he's being accepting. I guess that's what I'm saying. I
Speaker 1: looked very gay at this party.
Speaker 2: Well, and it is like, what makes short hair gay?
Speaker 1: Yeah you decided that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like I just like with the actress that came
Speaker 2: to mind as Leslie Bibb, like she has pretty short hair,
Speaker 2: you know, and she felt super feminine. Yeah. I watched
Speaker 2: Steele Magnolia's Last Week. Julie Roberts in the movie cuts
Speaker 2: her hair really short, she still looks very feminine. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I think a lot of it isn't just the
Speaker 2: short hair. It's the the how you dress and how
Speaker 2: you carry yourself. You know. Yeah, I spend a lot
Speaker 2: less time thinking about my mannerisms. You know, I used
Speaker 2: to think about that all the time, Like how am
Speaker 2: I sitting? How am I walking? I mean, like I
Speaker 2: said in high school, my theater teacher said, I walked
Speaker 2: like John Wayne.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Like what a compliment?
Speaker 2: Now, what a compliment for a seventeen year old girl
Speaker 2: to hear in front of the entire class? What brutal?
Speaker 1: Who says to a girl? I don't know, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think I think that part's interesting of like what the
Speaker 1: people around us, and I think what she's expressing is
Speaker 1: not only are you, like to your point, going through
Speaker 1: this huge process on your own? Now I got to
Speaker 1: worry about what my sister thinks or my friends think
Speaker 1: about this. Butch, chick, I'm showing up with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like, But also how much of that do
Speaker 2: they actually care about? Are we? Is this our perception
Speaker 2: of their thoughts? Is it our own internalized shit? Like?
Speaker 2: What is actually factual in this equation?
Speaker 1: Well, some of it is because your mom said, only
Speaker 1: the pretty ones people's kids have expressed. Why do you
Speaker 1: have to pick somebody? But I guess too, It's like
Speaker 1: we all have it took me a minute to figure
Speaker 1: out what my taste is. Yeah, like I didn't know
Speaker 1: when I first came out. I think, I, well, my
Speaker 1: catalyst was pretty masked, wouldn't you say? Yeah? And then
Speaker 1: I thought I would like them. Then I thought I've
Speaker 1: kind of morphed through the years to get to where
Speaker 1: I am now. And now I would say I'm pretty
Speaker 1: attracted to feminine women.
Speaker 2: And like I mean, I would say I've been about
Speaker 2: like mostly fem kind of somewhat on the mass side
Speaker 2: with one person I dated a few years ago. And
Speaker 2: it is interesting, It's like what actually matters to you?
Speaker 2: Is it like is it really in a relationship and
Speaker 2: a long term thing? Is it really like how someone
Speaker 2: looks on a surface level or or is it who
Speaker 2: they are as a human being that like you need
Speaker 2: to pay closer attention to. And I don't know. I
Speaker 2: think maybe there's part of me that's been more attracted
Speaker 2: to the fem women because that's what it's like. Okay,
Speaker 2: I've already blown up everything in my life and like
Speaker 2: I'm lucky that my parents have been so supportive, Like
Speaker 2: I better do this like one little thing to make
Speaker 2: sure that like that support remains but at the same time,
Speaker 2: I'm like, one of the reasons why I didn't think
Speaker 2: I was gay is because I wasn't attracted to those
Speaker 2: mask women, like the real butch lesbians. And I mean
Speaker 2: always thought that that was like the dynamic every time
Speaker 2: was like there was a butcher and there was a femme,
Speaker 2: and I was like, well, in that scenario, I'm the
Speaker 2: fem and I'm not attracted to butch women, So not gay.
Speaker 1: See I look at the opposite, You're attracted to women women,
Speaker 1: I mention gay, But you tell yourself whatever restrained no.
Speaker 2: No no, And it's.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, to your is it like you and feel
Speaker 1: like you're supposed to like this certain thing now like
Speaker 1: let's say, like you said, you're still kind of following
Speaker 1: that heteronormative thing where you're going to be now like
Speaker 1: the mask one and then you're going to pick somebody
Speaker 1: them Or is is it that you really are attracted
Speaker 1: to them or is it like something about you internally
Speaker 1: that like feels good.
Speaker 2: People pleasing? Yeah, Like I know, we've talked about that
Speaker 2: a lot. I feel like a lot of people who
Speaker 2: came out later are just natural people pleasers, And part
Speaker 2: of that is you know to like we said, follow
Speaker 2: the norm, do the thing, marry the man because it
Speaker 2: makes everybody else around you happy. And I think maybe
Speaker 2: that's part of it, like to kind of take that
Speaker 2: notion and like this person saying like kind of being surprised,
Speaker 2: like she is attracted to this mask woman. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: the perception of everybody else around her that she needs
Speaker 2: to let go. And that's hard.
Speaker 1: I know, I think what I am attracted to. I
Speaker 1: always go back to that in my mind, that forty
Speaker 1: year conversation like litmus test of like is this somebody
Speaker 1: that I want to have a forty year conversation? Is
Speaker 1: this somebody that I want to watch TV quietly with
Speaker 1: and then wake up and have coffee with? Or is
Speaker 1: this somebody that within a couple hours I'm ready to
Speaker 1: go to bed because I'm tired of entertaining or feeling
Speaker 1: like I have to like put in a little effort.
Speaker 1: It's not just like an effortless forty year conversation, because
Speaker 1: that is what marriage is. At the end of the day,
Speaker 1: I'm picking you to talk to for the next forty
Speaker 1: years of my life, day in and day out. When
Speaker 1: shit hits the fan, when stuff is rough, you are
Speaker 1: going to be the support in the storm for me?
Speaker 1: And is that? Are you the person I want there?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Or do you feel unsafe in some way for me
Speaker 1: that you're probably not the best port for me to
Speaker 1: grab onto and not have anything to do with fem
Speaker 1: or mask.
Speaker 2: No exactly, Yeah, not a thing. And you know, in
Speaker 2: those final years, we're all gonna be wearing like sweatpants
Speaker 2: and oversize.
Speaker 1: It's ready, I'm already doing that, so right there, you
Speaker 1: have it pants right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But I think even beyond that ten years from now,
Speaker 1: it's like I look at some couples I'll be out
Speaker 1: at dinner and I'm thinking I would literally rather I
Speaker 1: can't sit here. I could not be with them for
Speaker 1: ten years. I would be ready to like pull my
Speaker 1: hair out, like I don't so to think forty years
Speaker 1: that I'm still going to be talking to you about
Speaker 1: the grass or about the dog, or about have we
Speaker 1: eaten enough vegetables today? Are you the person that I
Speaker 1: want to have that conversation with, because that is what
Speaker 1: it is, that's all. Yeah, And a lot of people
Speaker 1: just pick on things that It's like, I don't know
Speaker 1: a lot of my straight friends pick men that I'm like,
Speaker 1: is that your port in the storm?
Speaker 2: Good?
Speaker 1: Fuck luck?
Speaker 2: That is interesting, Like I do feel like in the
Speaker 2: straight relationships there are a lot of like people. I'm like,
Speaker 2: this man provides zero substance, like in a conversation, right,
Speaker 2: and you're in.
Speaker 1: It and women too, But I'm just using that as
Speaker 1: an example, right, And when you think about like the
Speaker 1: man is there to like, let's say you pick a
Speaker 1: man because you're like, well, what he's adding is like
Speaker 1: he's protection for me or he's it's like, we don't
Speaker 1: live in the ice ages where I've got a saber
Speaker 1: toothed tiger coming after me, and I need this big man,
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, Like that's not a good enough reason. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but now you got to bring something else because that's
Speaker 1: not gonna that's not enough anymore. Now I need a
Speaker 1: forty year conversation. Can you do that? Can you do that? Well?
Speaker 1: Because that's what I really need.
Speaker 2: M M for sure, because yeah, those final years it's
Speaker 2: most likely just going to be you two yeah at
Speaker 2: the end and.
Speaker 1: With your children, and it's like, is this somebody who's
Speaker 1: going to be a good example for them, a good
Speaker 1: partner that's going to show them what it looks like
Speaker 1: to be a partner.
Speaker 2: And that doesn't matter your kids.
Speaker 1: Likes your kids, wants your kids, is rooting for your kids?
Speaker 1: I think that's a whole nother section of it. It's like,
Speaker 1: and again, it doesn't matter whether you're fem or mask.
Speaker 1: You need somebody that's like investing in them because they are.
Speaker 1: You know, if there's three of them and one of
Speaker 1: me that make up the pie, they're seventy five percent
Speaker 1: of it. So are you down for seventy five percent
Speaker 1: of my pie is rooting for these three?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I also have to wonder too, because it feels
Speaker 2: like it feels like there's more masculine leaning lesbians, you know,
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: And here, but mass shortage used to be a thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't believe that. Okay, I think it's more
Speaker 2: it's just harder to find pick out the femmes. But
Speaker 2: I think these hyper hyper feminine women are few and
Speaker 2: far between. Like even even the most fem women that
Speaker 2: I've dated have a little bit of like masculine energy
Speaker 2: to them, right, you know. And that's the other thing too.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I think ultimately I'm just attracted to someone
Speaker 2: who's really confident in themselves.
Speaker 1: Totally, Like I love that so too.
Speaker 2: But it's kind of like if if you're dating and
Speaker 2: you're focusing on only landing this hyperfem women and you're
Speaker 2: not having success, like open your eyes a little bit,
Speaker 2: like why are you focused on that feminine woman? Like
Speaker 2: why why does that have to be your partner? Like
Speaker 2: why can't you lean a little bit more down the spectrum?
Speaker 1: Or do you? Is it interesting too that the hyperfem
Speaker 1: women tend to want mask women some.
Speaker 2: Of them think of them and women.
Speaker 1: Some but I don't see that that often think about
Speaker 1: it in our whole friend group, I can think of
Speaker 1: one couple that's that. Yeah, the rest of them are
Speaker 1: not the fem ultra femme women that I know. Their
Speaker 1: partners are masks. Yeah, more mask than men. So that's
Speaker 1: who they're picking. Yeah, it's just it's interesting, I guess
Speaker 1: to say the least. Let me ask you something really
Speaker 1: funny that just happened to me literally within the last
Speaker 1: twenty four hours.
Speaker 2: Okay, you know we talk.
Speaker 1: About like the power dynamic and a kiss, like there's
Speaker 1: somebody who has the power and that they're on the
Speaker 1: outside more than the inside. You and I have talked
Speaker 1: about this.
Speaker 2: Yes, do you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 1: Are you just again with me?
Speaker 2: Okay, no, I do.
Speaker 1: I've never had someone challenge me on this, but I
Speaker 1: have somebody challenging me on this in the act in
Speaker 1: the act, like and they know it's a thing for me.
Speaker 1: So now it's like become a thing where I'm like,
Speaker 1: I see what you're doing and I'd like for you
Speaker 1: to stop.
Speaker 2: Because you can't handle it.
Speaker 1: And I don't know other people know this, Like she
Speaker 1: acted like she'd never heard of this in her whole.
Speaker 2: Life, that there's a power dynamic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, huh, there's one person.
Speaker 2: Think there is every time, though, Okay, Like I can't
Speaker 2: say that I've noticed it with everyone. I feel like
Speaker 2: sometimes it's pretty mutual.
Speaker 1: Well it can be mutual, but there typically is one
Speaker 1: person who's kind of outside versus.
Speaker 2: Inside running the show, not running the.
Speaker 1: Show even, but just more bigger on the kiss, like
Speaker 1: outside versus inside. It's the only way I can now
Speaker 1: when it happens, I'm like, I see what you're doing.
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like, but I have been kissing someone
Speaker 2: and been like, hold on, hold on, we need to
Speaker 2: readjust here, dig in this. I know we can fix this.
Speaker 1: I know we can fix this. Have you said that?
Speaker 2: Yes? O, maybe that's why I'm single. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I know that I like to actually kiss, like deep,
Speaker 2: passionate kisses, not slow or fast princess kisses.
Speaker 1: Okay, like slow, Okay. I feel like I got a
Speaker 1: little niggative feedback on my softness that I needed to.
Speaker 1: But I don't kiss soft. I just when you're first
Speaker 1: kissing someone, you're not like going in hard. You like
Speaker 1: are kind of gentle at the beginning, right am? I? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah? But I'm talking like the princess kiss where it's
Speaker 2: like there's no tongue. It's just like a little like boring.
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is how they kiss in a Disney cartoon.
Speaker 1: Okay, so then what do you do just like push
Speaker 1: your tongue in.
Speaker 2: No, I say to them, stop kissing me like a
Speaker 2: Disney princess. We really, I mean maybe not that a gross.
Speaker 1: And then once you say it, what do they say?
Speaker 2: I've had women tell me that it was because like
Speaker 2: that's kind of how they're used to kissing, like from
Speaker 2: It's honestly like one of those things where from dating
Speaker 2: or being with men, it's like they've held back so
Speaker 2: much in those situations like that they're not quite comfortable
Speaker 2: with it. I shouldn't say comfortable, not used to it.
Speaker 2: I guess, like so it's kind of like open up,
Speaker 2: be more passionate, Like it's not a gross man.
Speaker 1: It's not a gross man. That's the title of our show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I guess when you're first learning someone, there's so
Speaker 1: much new there. Like I think that's it takes a minute.
Speaker 2: That's probably the bigger thing that I like take away
Speaker 2: that I'm trying to convey right now. It's not necessarily man,
Speaker 2: but that is a lot of the case where I
Speaker 2: don't know. I was kind of the same way. It's
Speaker 2: because like you're kissing and you're like, well, I don't
Speaker 2: want this to go further, and maybe you get a
Speaker 2: little like used to that, you know.
Speaker 1: Okay, I see, Yeah, kind of like what we talk
Speaker 1: about with sex, like you're so programmed to shut it
Speaker 1: down in your mind. Yeah that it's like once you
Speaker 1: start sleeping with women, your breaks are.
Speaker 2: Up, right, I mean you've talked about that. It's kind
Speaker 2: of like you have to get like really out of
Speaker 2: your head.
Speaker 1: Out of your head present totally.
Speaker 2: And yeah, we've spent a lot of time trying to
Speaker 2: like not enjoy those experiences.
Speaker 1: I know, and you're like wwitch gears.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and a lot of the time too, these princess
Speaker 2: kiss situations that I'm talking about that happened, and this
Speaker 2: is not just with one person, Okay, I want to
Speaker 2: say that, but it's she.
Speaker 1: Has a big set of what do you call it,
Speaker 1: your data pool is big?
Speaker 2: I know, right, test this theory. But I feel like
Speaker 2: it's often in like a public setting too, So it's
Speaker 2: like there's another level of like maybe discomfort happening.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So not that I'm just like making out in these streets,
Speaker 2: but you.
Speaker 1: Make it out in the streets.
Speaker 2: I have, I've been honked at.
Speaker 1: But you do know what I'm talking about with the kiss,
Speaker 1: the power the power dynamic, yes, yeah, yeah, Hm, it's
Speaker 1: kind of like the handshake when you come in from
Speaker 1: up top you're in charge.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: So it's the kiss is the same thing. And so
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know, like when.
Speaker 2: There is I feel like I'm being man hating this episode.
Speaker 2: I'm not. I'm inner great.
Speaker 1: But there's men are great. But but.
Speaker 2: There's a friend that I know, and every time he
Speaker 2: sees me. He shakes my hand and does look and
Speaker 2: like we do this horror little hand handshake?
Speaker 1: What is going on? Man?
Speaker 2: I do the same.
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, guys.
Speaker 2: Are like I'm meeting him. No, I mean I'm not
Speaker 2: shaking like two right hands or two right hand left hand.
Speaker 2: Like it's a handshake, but it's like it reminds me
Speaker 2: of like what I was told to do in a
Speaker 2: job interview. You know, good firm handshake, but it's like
Speaker 2: a handshake off. You know who's gonna win.
Speaker 1: That's how I feel about the kiss. Yeah, he's gonna win.
Speaker 1: Who's gonna win?
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm winning every time with a handshake.
Speaker 2: With the kiss, not so much.
Speaker 1: Have you kissed people that they are either challenging you
Speaker 1: or they are obviously the ones that are on the
Speaker 1: outside and you need to just know your.
Speaker 2: Place on the end makes it both Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: You don't need to have your tongue down my throat.
Speaker 2: It's perfectly okay. Back there.
Speaker 1: On that note, I think this is a solid place
Speaker 1: to wrap.
Speaker 2: We're just gonna go.
Speaker 1: The main topic is that feeling not self conscious, because
Speaker 1: I do remember even in group, one of the women
Speaker 1: in group's daughter was like, please don't be gay, and
Speaker 1: then if you're gonna be gay, please don't date somebody's
Speaker 1: super masculine. Yeah, and so I mean there must be
Speaker 1: something to that. She was in group saying.
Speaker 2: Okay, I know I should have thought of this earlier,
Speaker 2: but I'm thinking of this now. But I actually had
Speaker 2: this thought when I was vacationing with my kids recently,
Speaker 2: and I felt like, Okay, I'm out here, I'm presenting.
Speaker 2: It's pretty masculine, and you know, we're at the beach,
Speaker 2: so it feels a little bit more obvious when I'm
Speaker 2: like wearing long shorts and sports bra or whatever. And
Speaker 2: I asked my kids. I was like, does it bother
Speaker 2: you that I don't dress like every other mom? And
Speaker 2: they were like, no, doesn't bother Like we like the
Speaker 2: way you dress.
Speaker 1: Really. Yeah, okay, so that's good news.
Speaker 2: Like that felt good to hear because I was kind
Speaker 2: of like my own internalized shit was happening that week
Speaker 2: of being like I don't look like all the other moms,
Speaker 2: and I know I'm getting like some second glances and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, but they were just like, we don't care, and.
Speaker 1: Like, Okay, that's amazing. Especially where you live at their age.
Speaker 1: It's like everything that could possibly be stigmatized, right, and
Speaker 1: they don't care.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: The only time I ever felt slightly we had a
Speaker 1: Lesbian Chronicles hat sitting in the window of my car.
Speaker 1: It was just like I'd taken it off and thrown
Speaker 1: it up there as I do. And I could tell.
Speaker 1: Reid was like, seriously, like, do you have to drive
Speaker 1: around the LC like promo?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think sometimes you got to put it
Speaker 2: out there everybody.
Speaker 1: No, it wasn't on purpose, but I thought, do you care, dude? Really?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: That is your friends.
Speaker 2: No, I'm gay, Like yeah, but that was like a
Speaker 2: bridge too far.
Speaker 1: It was too far, too far, too far anyway, all right,
Speaker 1: my friend, all right, enjoy your fourth same, I'll see
Speaker 1: you next week. Bye bye bye.
Speaker 2: Want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast, Rate us and
Speaker 2: write a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Speaker 1: We'd love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story,
Speaker 1: email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: That's Melissa M. E. L I s A and Ali A. L.
Speaker 1: L I at gmail dot com. Or follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles