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Speaker 1: Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness. Join

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us as we dive into the deep end of the

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unexplainable and try to piece together what happened. If you

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are listening to Locations Unknown.

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Speaker 2: O, what's up everybody? And welcome back to another episode

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of Locations Unknown. I'm your co host Joe Irad, and

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with me, as always, is the guy who would never

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steal fizzy lifting drinks, Mike Vanderbogart.

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Speaker 3: A thank you, Joe, and thank you to all of

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our amazing listeners for tuning in. Just a couple of

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announcements before we get go in. We've got a couple

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of new shows joining our network. So Joe, why don't

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you fill the audience in so we have the Hike

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and Seek podcast. So Kelly has been doing Instagram posts

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for us for a while, and her and her boyfriend

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Corbrn have been hitting national parks like crazy, and they

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are starting a show about hiking, traveling national parks, relationships,

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all the things, So that'll be a very interesting show.

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Their Instagram posts has been a lot of fun. They've

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also been posting like hiking workout routines, so it's gonna

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be an all around good podcast. They're going to be starting,

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I think, well it will already have been gone out

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by the time this show releases, but it's going to

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be tomorrow on the twentieth. Yes, and then we have Relish,

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which is outside of our normal but it's Alicia Shay

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and she is a health and wellness, a mental health

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and wellness coach and I had the pleasure of having

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her my teacher at Hoffman on a retreat and she's amazing.

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So she's bringing her show over to our network. So

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that is called the Relish Podcast. You'll be seeing more

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information on notes, exciting stuff, exciting stuff. Unknown media is

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growing and getting better and better every day. It's growing

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and we a little bit of a challenge this evening.

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We've got new microphones and a mixer and we've got

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new everything and nothing's working perfect. So only took about

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two hours to get it all working. But we hope

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we don't have to record this again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this we'll have. We'll find out there's stuff blinking

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and stuff is running. Yes, we're gonna make sure that

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it works.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if you want to call the show, you can

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call two eight three nine one six nine one three

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you can leave a voicemail anything that's funny or you're

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making fun of us or anything like that. We'll be

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sure to play it on an episode at a future date.

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Do we have other shows on the network. You can

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check out Off the Trails, Who runs this Park, Crime,

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Off the Grid, And like Joe said, hike and seek.

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Speaker 2: Now and relish, relish, relish. I'll get it. You'll get there.

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Speaker 3: If you want to support the show, you can support

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us on Patreon, YouTube memberships, premium subscriptions on Apple, premium

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subscriptions on spreaker. You can buy stuff from our store.

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We've got a few things on there. We're going to

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be rolling out more items at some point. We just

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we have so much going on, you got to prioritize.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we just spent all of our time setting this

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board up and yeah, still not done yet.

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Speaker 3: Outside of that, I don't know any other updates from you, Joe, No, sir,

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Happy Thanksgiving?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think is this going out before Thanksgiving? This

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is going out the day after, all right. I hope

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you all had a great thanks All right, everybody, let's

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gear up and get out to explore locations unknown. February eleventh,

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twenty seventeen, a forty year old man from New York,

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deep in a midlife crisis, vanishes into a brutal winter

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storm at Great Sand Dunes National Park. Miraculously, he is

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rescued after five freezing nights, calling it his mission to

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the stars. Just three months later, he returns alone to

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the same vast Colorado wilderness and disappears a second time.

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What drove him back to the dunes that nearly killed

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him the first time. Join us this week as we

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investigate the strange repeat vanishing of Brian Skelinski. Two weeks

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in a row, we've covered new parks or forests, forest parks,

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We've never done Great Sand Dunes National Park. I feel like,

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because you can see everybody, what do you mean, it's

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just a big sand dune.

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Speaker 3: Some of them are seven hundred and twenty feet tall. Yeah,

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but like it's thirty square miles of sion.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying I can't get lost, obviously, but it's

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not like there's brush and trees everywhere.

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Speaker 3: Well, we'll get into it. It actually is quite alpine,

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all right, all right, yeah, all right, I'm scanning up

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the dunes.

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Speaker 2: So I'm sitting down for him. Location as we had said,

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is the Great Sand Dune's National Park and Preserve. We're

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gonna be talking more about the one and a half

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miles south of the visitor center, Milwaukee Peak and Marble Mountain.

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What a great name for a peak. It is in

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southern Colorado. It was established in March seventeenth, nineteen thirty two,

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and expanded to National Park and Preserve status in two

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thousand and four, so relatively recently. It sees about half

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a million visitors per year as of twenty twenty three.

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Some of the interesting facts about Great Sand Dunes National

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Park the tallest sand dunes in North America. So Great

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Sand Dunes holds the record up to seven hundred and

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fifty feet tall, towering higher than a fifty story building.

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The dune field itself covers thirty square miles. That's pretty gnarly. Yeah,

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that's awesome. Did you know that they sing? I did not?

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Under the right conditions, slipping sand can produce a deep, resonant,

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booming sound that can be heard from miles. It causes

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a synchronized grain vibration and is one of the only

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places in the US where this happens naturally. That's like

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ominous it's where the only place it happens naturally. Yeah,

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where does it happen unnaturally? You'll never know. Yes, Modano

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Creek creates a natural beach in the Rockies. Every spring

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snowmelt creates a surge flow surge flow waves in Madonna

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Creek regularly pulses of water that behave like ocean waves.

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Families set up beach chairs and boogey boards at eight

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thousand feet in Colorado. That's kind of fun. Yeah. The

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sand can reach one hundred and fifty degrees fahrenheit in

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the summer, so even when the air feels mild, the

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surface temperature. Skyrocket rangers regularly measure between one hundred and

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forty and one hundred and fifty degrees surface times on

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sunny days, which is instant foot burned territory.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you might not want to wear your cracks if

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you're hiking in the sand dunes. You want to get

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that hot sand in those toes well, and they'll just melt.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. This is one of the dark nights, one of

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the darkest night skies in lower forty eight. On moonless nights,

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the Milky Way looks like a solid cloud running across

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the horizon. Yeah, it's classified as a dark sky park.

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I've gone to one of those before and hiked up

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to a fire tower. It's really awesome. The dunes exist

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because of a perfect storm of geology prevailing southwest winds

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pushing sand towards the mountains. Sangree de Cristo a walls

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blocking the escape cold valley down drafts which push the

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sand back into the basin. This sandtrap has been recycling

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grains for thousands of years, so they just kind of

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just go around in circles and surface this and.

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Speaker 3: Just kind of gets pushed back and forth and kind

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of ground down. Because I I before I researched this,

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I was really curious how the heck those sand dunes

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got there, because I mean, it's so out of place

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for everything else in the US.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, now you know, have you ever been there?

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I have not. I haven't either. I want to go

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snowboard there or sand on the board. That's both the

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driest and snowiest place in the valley. So the dunes

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area sees low annual precipitation, so it's less than eleven inches,

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but storms smashing into the Sangree de Cristo dump heavy

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snow at higher elevations directly behind the dunefield. A true

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climate duality desert in the front, winter in the back.

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It's kind of like the mullet you you were gonna say,

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it's because we've been together for a party in the

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front or partying in the back. Business in the front.

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The dunes actually migrate, but extremely slowly, so dune ridges

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can shift several feet per year depending on wind patterns

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over centuries. The entire dune mass creeps across the valley

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floor like a geological glacier made of sand. A little

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bit about the climate. The area where Brian went missing

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sits at the collision of high desert and high alpine

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down near the main dunes and Medano Creek around eighty

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eighty five hundred feet. The climate is cold and semi arid,

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with big daily temperature swings and relatively low precipitation. Summers

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are warm, but usually not brutally hot in the air

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typically seventy five to eighty two degrees fahrenheit, while winters

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are freezing, with lows often in single digits or below zero.

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Even when the air is mild, the dunes and valley

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floor can be deceptive. The sand surface as we said,

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can reach up to one hundred and fifty degrees fahrenheit

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on sunny summer afternoons, while nights often plunge to twenty

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five to thirty degrees colder than daytime highs. Classic high

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desert behavior that punishes anyone who misjudges layers, hydration, or timing.

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Spring and early summers are volatile. March is usually the

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snowiest month, and even into April and May you can

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see a wild mix of sun, high winds and sudden

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snow squalls. The The National Park Service warns at late spring,

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roughly when Brian's second trip occurs, still brings snow and

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powerful afternoon winds, even as Madonna Creek is running and

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the dunes looks spring like. From below. Between Milwaukee Peak

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and Marble Mountain in the Sangree to Crystal Range, the

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climate ships from dry foothills to full alpine elevations climb

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above eleven thousand to twelve thousand feet, where snowpack can

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persist into late May and June and permanent slash lingering

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snow often starts around ten thy seven hundred feet, depending

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on the year. Storms here bring rapid temperature drops, white outs,

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and avalanche prone snow. Even when the valley floor feels

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like late spring. The broader Sangrie de Cristo region often

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sees strong May precipitation in the form of mountain snow,

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with state and federal reports noting that May can deliver

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some of the highest winter year totals to these peaks,

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even though statistically it's not the deepest part of winter.

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That means a solo hiker in early May can counter fresh,

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deep and unstable snow over older layers with rapidly changing

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avalanche and footing conditions. Wind is a defining feature springett

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Great Sand Dunes is known for high afternoon winds that

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can sand blast the dunefield and drive ground blizzards or

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blowing snow higher up. That would just be terrible. It's

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like walking through a sand blaster that's freezing and snow.

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Speaker 3: Also, this was really cool for me to read about

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because I didn't think I thought Great Sand Dunes was

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just the sand dunes. I didn't think it was this

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dynamic with thirteen thousand foot peaks and sandstorms and all

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this kind of stuff. Just a hellish environmental Yeah, but

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it sounds really cool.

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Speaker 2: I definitely want to go so. Climate data sets for

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the peak show frequent, moderate to strong winds year round,

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especially in the shoulder seasons. For someone high on ridges

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or traversing steep snow, those winds mean faster heat loss,

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reduced visibility, and much higher fatigue. So The area where

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Brian first went missing starts in a basin of sand

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and sage and ends in low foothills near the main

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parking and horse trailer lots. The land is flat sand

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sheet and grassland at about seventy five to eighty two

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hundred feet into the Madonno Creek in the base of

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the dunefield. From there the ground rises gently into pinion

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juniper and pine forests in soft sandy soils, giving way

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to rockier slopes and drainages like Cold Creek where lower

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shoulders of Mount Herod. The dune field itself is a

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moving labyrinth, about thirty square miles of sand, with the

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tallest dune rising up to seven hundred and fifty feet

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above the valley floor. Ridges are steep and constantly reshaped

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by the wind. The trail quote unquote is more of

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an idea than a line, and every crest hides another

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set of bowls and spines under the top dry layer.

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The sand is often moist and compact, but the surface

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can be loose and exhausting, turning simple navigation airs into long,

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energy sapping detours. That's like when you step into slide

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step slide.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, hiking in canyonlands way back in the day it

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was exhausting because a lot of that was kind of

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sandy trarain and anyone that's hiked in that you move

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a lot slower.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it just sounds well, and your landmarks are changing. Yeah,

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and the dunes.

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Speaker 3: That's crazy, Like your trail is not really a trail,

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it's kind of like a go that direction in between

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the dunes.

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Speaker 2: Yah, you might want to have a compass. Yeah. Around

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sand Pit picnic area, aptly named where Brian's second trip began.

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The train is a transition zone, a narrow strup where

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deep vehicle churned sand, Medano creeks, braided channels, cottonwood, willow, thickets,

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and rising flank of the mountains all overlap. The Medano Pass.

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Primitive road from here is a rough four by four

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track that crosses deep sand, cobbles and Medano Creek multiple times,

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immediately committing you to a more remote backcountry environment than

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the main visitors area. Climbing away from the dunes along

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Medano Pass, the land steepens into dense forests, valleys and

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rocky ridges. Forests and meadow pockets sit in a tight

240
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fee shaped canyon with slopes that are steep enough for

241
00:14:06,399 --> 00:14:09,159
slow to linger and slide, and enough timber to hide

242
00:14:09,159 --> 00:14:14,200
both trails and people. Trails towards Madonno Lake and Mount

243
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,000
Herod gain about two thousand feet to the lake, then

244
00:14:17,039 --> 00:14:19,799
another fifteen hundred feet to the summit, quickly moving from

245
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,039
sandy forest to boulder strewn alpine basins. Higher up, between

246
00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,600
Milwaukee Peak and Marble Mountain, the terrain becomes pure high

247
00:14:27,679 --> 00:14:30,919
alpine thirteen thousand foot summits, thin air, in a mix

248
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,279
a tundra of benches, talus slopes, boiler plate rock, slabs,

249
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,440
and broken cliffs. Route descriptions for these peak mentions difficult

250
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,399
to follow trails, cairn sections through slabs, loose rubble, and

251
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,639
occasional scrambling. The sort of country where missteps can mean

252
00:14:46,679 --> 00:14:49,320
a long fall and where an injured person can be

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invisible from just a few hundred yards away. The whole

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landscapes decks vertically in short horizontal distance and just a

255
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few miles. You go from desert like sand and cottonwoods

256
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to dense connifer for four and then windswept tundra and

257
00:15:02,279 --> 00:15:05,559
rock at thirteen thousand feet, So that steep gradient creates

258
00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:09,440
natural train traps, narrow drainages, cliff bands, and convex snow

259
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slopes where a solo hiker can easily get cliffed out,

260
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funneled to the wrong basin, or force into a hazardous

261
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side hilling above steep drops. Adding the remoteness and low

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visibility from below from the valley floor, the dunes draw

263
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all the attention, and the high peaks and preserve area

264
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:29,279
our backdrop rather than obvious objectives. Trip reports from Martin Herrod,

265
00:15:29,759 --> 00:15:33,720
Milwaukee and surrounding peaks emphasize how little traffic these ridges

266
00:15:33,759 --> 00:15:36,639
sea compared to the dunes, meaning fewer tracks to follow,

267
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fewer eyes in the landscape, fewer chance encounters that might

268
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,480
observe a spot or distressed hiker. So I want to

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go there. I know, it sounds really cool, It sounds

270
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,600
super backcountry. You see it all. Yeah, some of the

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animals in the area. We have elk, black bear, mountain lion, bobcats, coyote,

272
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big horn sheep, golden and bald eagles, and the desert tarantulas. Ugh,

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never mind, I don't want to go there. One we

274
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got a rack noophobia. I had a big spider fan. Yeah, nope, nope,

275
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I'm a big fan of Spider Man. You won't hike

276
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,519
there because of translats. I'll hike there. I went hiking

277
00:16:09,559 --> 00:16:12,360
through the Amazon rainforest. Yeah, it's filled with spiders.

278
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Speaker 1: I know.

279
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,960
Speaker 2: We went at night. It was absolutely I've just sucked

280
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,480
it up. I still don't like. I mean, they look disgusting. Yeah,

281
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I don't like any spiders. So tips to stay safe

282
00:16:20,399 --> 00:16:24,000
will hip dinnerthday gift pet Transla Yeah, yeah, totally. You

283
00:16:24,039 --> 00:16:27,679
know you want to avoid hiking on the dunes midday

284
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,399
and summer. The sand service can reach one hundred fifty degrees.

285
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Plan hikes for early morning or evening. You want to

286
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,240
wear clothed toed shoes and use high elevation sun protection.

287
00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:38,279
So it sits at eighty two hundred feet at the

288
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,240
visitor center and sun and sand can burn skin and feet.

289
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,360
Stay hydrated. Carry extra water. The backcountry is dry and

290
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,120
water sources are limited. Many guides recommend one gallon per person.

291
00:16:49,159 --> 00:16:52,200
For overnight trips, you want to check weather and watch

292
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,360
for wind, lightning, and storms. These areas have frequent strong

293
00:16:55,399 --> 00:16:58,919
winds in summer afternoon storms, which are a lightning hazard.

294
00:16:59,279 --> 00:17:01,200
I want to make sure you're packing the appropriate gear

295
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,160
for sand and variable terrains. So things like sand steaks

296
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,279
for tents gators, or shoes that can with stand exposure

297
00:17:07,279 --> 00:17:09,799
of hot sand, trekking poles, and heat layers for cold

298
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,119
nights gators would be huge. So you're not just getting

299
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,359
sand packed in your shoes. Yeah, that'd be the worst. Yeah,

300
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,839
I know. The wildlife and terrain hazards black bear are

301
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,680
present in the mountain areas and mountain lions and foothills.

302
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,759
Edges of the dunes also hazards like heat burned sand,

303
00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:28,319
collapsing dunes, tick insects, and forested zones. Now, if you

304
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:30,599
don't survive at all, then the dune just collapses on

305
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,559
you and buries you in the sand. As always, you

306
00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:36,160
want to file a trip plan or permit for backcountry

307
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,839
overnight's trips, especially in less traffic zones, letting someone know

308
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,680
your plan. Improve safety guides emphasize this, even if the

309
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:48,079
park's official permit process may differ, be tolerant of special

310
00:17:48,079 --> 00:17:51,440
footing and terrain. Loose sand makes travel slower and more exhausting.

311
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,640
In the dune zone, you may only gain a few

312
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,400
feet up a dune ridge for each step. Factor in

313
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,319
a slower pace and fatigue. So if you normally do

314
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,519
twenty miles on the hard ground, maybe you're only going

315
00:18:01,599 --> 00:18:04,240
to get twelve to fifteen in the dues. You don't know.

316
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,599
Respect water source rules and treat drinking water so snow

317
00:18:07,599 --> 00:18:11,400
melt Alpine creeks may carry bacteria such as Jiardia, filter

318
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,039
or boil if using and as always leave no trace

319
00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:18,400
and respect the wilderness etiquette. So camp out, day use zones,

320
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,799
stay off fragile vegetation, pack out all waste, and respect

321
00:18:21,839 --> 00:18:25,039
the desert alpine ecosystem. So Mike tell us about Brian.

322
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,759
So his name was Brian Skalinski.

323
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,839
Speaker 3: We don't have an official date of birth that was

324
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:35,240
not publicly available. He went missing twice, so his first

325
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:40,200
disappearance was February eleventh of twenty seventeen. His second disappearance

326
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,480
so he was last seen on May eighth of twenty

327
00:18:42,519 --> 00:18:47,039
seventeen and was officially declared missing on May fourteenth of

328
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,079
twenty seventeen. He was male, believed to be age forty.

329
00:18:52,079 --> 00:18:57,799
There was no body description actually provided. Based on the

330
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,039
public information that I found. There are a few pictures

331
00:19:01,079 --> 00:19:03,880
of him online. Joe's looking at one of them right now.

332
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:05,519
Speaker 2: I'll pull it up in a second.

333
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,759
Speaker 3: So we also don't So this is an interesting case.

334
00:19:09,799 --> 00:19:13,599
We usually have more information on the subject of the case,

335
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,519
but this one we don't. No news sources or NPS

336
00:19:17,519 --> 00:19:22,599
sources provided specific clothing descriptions for the May eighth disappearance.

337
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,960
It was reported that he didn't have a backcountry permit,

338
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,519
he didn't leave an itinerary, and based on his February disappearance,

339
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,559
we know that he typically carried very minimumal gear. In

340
00:19:36,599 --> 00:19:39,400
his February disappearance, he had no shelter, sleeping bag, he

341
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,400
had limited food, but we do not know the gear

342
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,000
that he had for his May disappearance. Personality wise, he

343
00:19:47,079 --> 00:19:50,880
was described as introspective and searching, so he spoke openly

344
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,319
about having a mid life crisis and trying to find

345
00:19:54,319 --> 00:19:57,400
motivation for the next forty years of his life by

346
00:19:57,519 --> 00:20:01,960
testing himself at the dunes. Is often known as being

347
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,559
stubborn and determined. He was quoted about the first trip,

348
00:20:06,079 --> 00:20:08,240
he said, three feet isn't going to stop me. Four

349
00:20:08,279 --> 00:20:10,359
feet isn't going to stop me. I'm going to keep

350
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,680
going even as the snow and conditions worsened. He was

351
00:20:14,039 --> 00:20:18,759
goal driven but prone to over commitment, so willingness to

352
00:20:18,799 --> 00:20:22,000
continue deeper into hazardous train instead of turning back or

353
00:20:22,039 --> 00:20:27,599
adjusting his plans. And he was capable of gratitude and reflections.

354
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,160
So this really comes from interviews with him post his

355
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,319
February disappearance, and he publicly thanked the search and rescue

356
00:20:35,319 --> 00:20:38,000
teams and acknowledged the mistakes he made in interviews.

357
00:20:38,039 --> 00:20:39,920
Speaker 2: So kind of interesting.

358
00:20:40,079 --> 00:20:43,079
Speaker 3: We don't usually we don't usually have a subject to

359
00:20:43,079 --> 00:20:46,480
get interviewed on their first disappearance when we're talking about

360
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:47,480
their second disappearance.

361
00:20:47,519 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 2: This is kind of a unique case.

362
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was thinking about the odds, So what are

363
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,279
the odds of the same person going missing in the

364
00:20:56,319 --> 00:21:00,000
same park in the same year. It's got to be

365
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,640
like one in a million. Yeah, I'd say even more

366
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:08,279
than that. Yeah, medical issues. We do not know if

367
00:21:08,319 --> 00:21:12,559
he suffered from any chronic medical conditions. Nothing was reported

368
00:21:12,759 --> 00:21:16,279
in any of the sources I could find. Occupation and hobby.

369
00:21:16,319 --> 00:21:19,559
We're not sure what his current occupation was, but he

370
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,680
was retired US Navy, so he did have some military experience.

371
00:21:24,039 --> 00:21:28,119
What that experience was, I don't know, but he obviously

372
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,279
has some training. When we get in the timeline and

373
00:21:30,319 --> 00:21:34,000
you go through what happened to him in the first disappearance,

374
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,200
it's kind of shocking he survived that, to be honest

375
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,920
with you. Okay, so experience in the wilderness, experience of

376
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,079
that location, We're not quite sure on his level of

377
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,920
experience in the wilderness. We obviously know he went missing

378
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,759
twice in the location, so he was very familiar with

379
00:21:51,799 --> 00:21:57,160
it on that second trip. And we'll jump right into timeline.

380
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:02,880
So it's early February twenty seventeen. Brian drives west amid

381
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,839
a midlife crisis. He's looking for motivation, Like I said,

382
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,319
for the next forty years, he drives all the way

383
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,119
straight from New York to Great Sand Dunes National Park

384
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,039
in southern Colorado, specifically to clear his head and challenge

385
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:20,119
himself physically. I couldn't find any public reporting on exactly

386
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,000
when he left New York or where he might have

387
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,200
stayed before entering the park. We only really know that

388
00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:31,119
he got to the park by February Saturday, February eleventh

389
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,079
of twenty seventeen, and during his first disappearance, he planned

390
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,880
a rough He planned roughly a ten mile hike around

391
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,759
the park's perimeter to Cold Creek drainage at the base

392
00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:43,759
of Mount Herod. This would be east of the Dunefield.

393
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,880
Like I said earlier, he carried minimal gear. He had

394
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,240
no shelter, no sleeping bag, no extra clothes, and only

395
00:22:50,319 --> 00:22:53,599
enough food for about two small meals. So it was

396
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,359
reported he had a breakfast bar and a small package

397
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,559
of oreos, so that's the only food he had. So

398
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,200
I had a good start, no, And to make things worse,

399
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,880
conditions were pretty bad at this time. So it was

400
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:12,880
very wintry, very severe weather, deep snow drifts in the backcountry, snowstorms,

401
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,880
high winds, and nighttime temperatures down into the teens. Really

402
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,799
you could kind of start to get a picture not

403
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,599
prepared gear wise, and he picked probably one of the

404
00:23:22,599 --> 00:23:26,400
worst times to go hiking in the park that there's

405
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,240
probably I can't imagine a worse condition to go hiking there.

406
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't seem like he did a lot of research,

407
00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:34,240
but he just kind of went and did just showed

408
00:23:34,319 --> 00:23:36,079
up and it's like I'm hiking it. Just yep. I'm

409
00:23:36,079 --> 00:23:37,680
gonna figure it out when I get there. Yeah.

410
00:23:38,599 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 3: Saturday, February eleventh, twenty seventeen. This would be the day

411
00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:46,640
one of his first disappearance. Multiple reports state he arrived

412
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,960
and entered the dunes on Saturday morning or on February eleventh.

413
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,039
He parked in the horse trailer lot at Madonna Road.

414
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,160
As he hiked towards Cold Creek, he encountered increasingly deep snow,

415
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,359
but did not turn back. He was later interviewed and

416
00:24:01,559 --> 00:24:05,359
admitted this was a serious mistake. With no tent or

417
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,480
sleeping bag, he reportedly spent the first night in a

418
00:24:08,519 --> 00:24:12,119
tree well, sheltering in the Then the hollow formed by

419
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,839
snow around the tree trunk. So that is wild. That's insane.

420
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:19,960
I know, I can't even imagine.

421
00:24:20,039 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 2: It's now.

422
00:24:20,559 --> 00:24:23,319
Speaker 3: Sunday of February twelfth, of twenty seventeen. This would be

423
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,480
day two, So this is when his very limited food

424
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,519
supplies started dwindling. He decided to eat the breakfast bar

425
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,440
on day one, and then he finished it.

426
00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 2: Only had oreos left, which.

427
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,519
Speaker 3: He finished on day two, and he had no food

428
00:24:39,559 --> 00:24:40,359
after this point.

429
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 2: At least from what I read. So he was without food.

430
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,519
Speaker 3: And it's now Monday, February thirteenth of twenty seventeen. This

431
00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:52,680
is day three. So after taking his boots off at night,

432
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,279
his boots froze solid, so he had to cut out

433
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,960
the laces and tongues to get them back on his feet.

434
00:24:59,759 --> 00:25:03,440
At at this point, he's desperate and lost. He abandoned

435
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,359
his original loop route and decided to cut straight across

436
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,920
the dune field, going over the largest dunes instead of

437
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,599
returning via his inbound path. He tried to use the

438
00:25:13,759 --> 00:25:16,799
Ingrey Day Cristo to the East as a visual reference

439
00:25:16,839 --> 00:25:19,559
to guide himself out, but lost sight of the mountains

440
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,880
amid terrain and weather, and then he became turned around

441
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,519
even more and began wandering. So you've probably heard us,

442
00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:30,359
if you've listened to us a long time. This is

443
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,039
something that can really get you lost and mess up

444
00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:36,680
the search and rescue operation is once you realize you

445
00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:39,880
lost and you just began wandering around. I guess I

446
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,759
kind of see why he did it here, because you're

447
00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:43,279
in the middle of a sand dune, like where are

448
00:25:43,319 --> 00:25:48,240
you going to shelter in winter? But usually your best

449
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,759
best thing you can do is hunker down at the

450
00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:55,200
moment you figure out you're lost, and that would give

451
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,680
you the best chance of search and rescue finding you,

452
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,720
assuming you gave them an itinerary and told people where

453
00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:05,559
you're gonna be. So it is now Tuesday, February fourteenth

454
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,839
of twenty seventeen. This is day four, so he's been

455
00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:10,680
out there for four days now. He was out of

456
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,519
food by day two. He This night is even worse

457
00:26:14,519 --> 00:26:17,079
for him. He spends the night directly on the dune's

458
00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:21,079
surface in single digit temperatures and high winds with no shelter.

459
00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:25,079
Speaker 2: If you've ever been on cold sand, yeah, it's like terrible.

460
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,599
Speaker 3: In like single digit fahrenheit temperatures and high wind No boy, no,

461
00:26:30,319 --> 00:26:35,359
So it's amazing he's still alive at this point. It's Wednesday,

462
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,640
February fifteenth of twenty seventeen, so this is day five.

463
00:26:39,279 --> 00:26:42,880
At some point after he failed to return, rangers noticed

464
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,440
his unattended vehicle in the horse trailer a lot near

465
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,440
Madonno Road and began an investigation. And this is kind

466
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,640
of when they started treating him as a missing visitor.

467
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,920
It's now Thursday, February sixteenth of twenty seventeen MPs rangers,

468
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,839
Elpaso County, SAR Colorado Division of Fire Prevention and Control,

469
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:10,240
and other organizations mobilized at least twenty eight people. They

470
00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:13,519
had dog teams which actually picked up his scent and footprints,

471
00:27:13,519 --> 00:27:18,039
and aerial crews were scanning the dunes around sunset. Teams

472
00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:22,599
found him amazingly about one to one and a half

473
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,319
miles south of the visitor's visitor center, and he had

474
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,640
essentially wandered onto the searchers after sighting a road he had.

475
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,920
He was suffering from frostbite and exposure, but searchers said

476
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,920
that he was in relatively good health given that he

477
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,359
spent five nights out there in the winter conditions, and

478
00:27:43,839 --> 00:27:48,799
amazingly he declined hospital care and ended up staying in

479
00:27:48,839 --> 00:27:52,839
a local hotel, then drove back to New York, and

480
00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:59,160
in interviews after the original disappearance, he emphasized how quickly

481
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:05,759
conditions over overwhelmed him, and he praised rescuers and I

482
00:28:05,799 --> 00:28:08,960
think I read somewhere. I don't know if I have

483
00:28:09,039 --> 00:28:12,359
it in here. He did suffer some pretty decent frostbite

484
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,400
on fingers and toes, I could imagine, but he declined

485
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,640
to hospital cares. Now we're in between disappearances, so it's

486
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,960
February to May of twenty seventeen. We know that public

487
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,720
reporting indicates that he returned to New York after the

488
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,559
February rescue, and a lot of media covered the ordeal

489
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,279
and his reflections about midlife crisis, near fatal mistake, but

490
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:39,000
we don't really have any other public documentation of what

491
00:28:39,799 --> 00:28:42,119
happened with him in the follow up. And I can't

492
00:28:42,119 --> 00:28:45,160
believe I don't remember hearing about this case, because it's

493
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,400
pretty wild. Yeah, just if just the fact that he

494
00:28:49,519 --> 00:28:52,799
survived that ordeal. I mean, he spent a night just

495
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,880
on the sand dune in single digit tempts. Joe's got

496
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,799
a picture of it up a map up here, and yes,

497
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:06,359
I am excellent, good, good work, thank you. It's pretty

498
00:29:06,359 --> 00:29:10,079
wild looking. See this is this. I just feel like,

499
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:11,599
and obviously I'm wrong.

500
00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:13,599
Speaker 2: I feel like you could fly over this with a

501
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,359
helicopter a few times and pick out somebody.

502
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,599
Speaker 3: Well, and they pretty quickly found him. They found him

503
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,759
on day five, and they didn't really start searching for

504
00:29:22,839 --> 00:29:25,720
him right away. But I think that can be deceiving,

505
00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:28,039
because you know, some of those dunes are seven hundred

506
00:29:28,039 --> 00:29:28,599
feet tall.

507
00:29:28,759 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I'm getting a shot right here.

508
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 3: But you're right, look at it. There's no vegetation, there's

509
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,119
nothing out there. You fly, it's thirty square miles. You

510
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:38,680
should be able to you can see these people? Yeah,

511
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,119
Like I can see those people right there. That's like

512
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,000
a mile away. Yeah, even more.

513
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: And I could imagine if it had snow, I'd be

514
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,839
able to see him even better. Yeah, I don't know.

515
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,640
I mean it's yeah, yeah, there's people right there, people

516
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,160
right there, people right there. This is the easiest I've

517
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,440
ever been able to see people on a grainy Google photo.

518
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,960
H how far away that is? Like those are look

519
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,079
at three four people? Two people?

520
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: Oh and look the photos even from twenty seven to

521
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,160
February twenty seventeen. Oh no, wow, what are the odds

522
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,920
of that, Joe, I don't know that was pure Look.

523
00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:17,759
Speaker 2: How wild the scenery is. That isn't really cool though,

524
00:30:17,839 --> 00:30:21,240
those the way that cliff there's a person. Yeah, I'm

525
00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:24,960
gonna try and find another spot to look. So yeah,

526
00:30:25,079 --> 00:30:25,960
it's crazy. You.

527
00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 3: I guess the pictures probably if we had been there,

528
00:30:30,319 --> 00:30:31,759
we'd be like, oh no, I could see how I

529
00:30:31,799 --> 00:30:34,599
could get lost. The pictures probably don't do it.

530
00:30:34,799 --> 00:30:37,359
Speaker 2: Justice. Well, I could see how you could get lost

531
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,640
if there was a white out, yeah, because if you're

532
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,160
looking like look at this now, if you can only

533
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,119
see fifty feet in front of you, yeah, you don't

534
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,519
know which way you're going. So if it's white out conditions,

535
00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:52,000
even when they're searching, okay, yes, you can't see anything.

536
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,000
But if anyone who has it's a clear day. Yeah.

537
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,400
And if you as a person, there's a person, there's

538
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:57,880
a person.

539
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,759
Speaker 3: And if you have even kind of basic ability with

540
00:31:01,799 --> 00:31:06,640
a compass in how to you know like northwest, east south,

541
00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:10,079
like before you start hiking, you can orient yourself and

542
00:31:10,079 --> 00:31:11,759
be like, all right, that's where the mountains are.

543
00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:14,119
Speaker 2: They're north. You have to do it. If I had

544
00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:16,400
a compass, I could get out of here just fine.

545
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 3: Because those mountains are much higher obviously, they're twelve thirteen

546
00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:21,359
thousand feet. If you're anywhere in the dunes and you

547
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,119
get lost and you know the mountains are on now,

548
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,640
I don't know if you're any if you're anywhere out

549
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,000
of dune twenty north here, I'll reorientate north.

550
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,079
Speaker 2: Okay. If you're anywhere in the dunes, you just go

551
00:31:34,359 --> 00:31:37,519
east and then you hit mountains, and if you don't

552
00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:39,480
hit a road, you go along the mountains. So you

553
00:31:39,519 --> 00:31:40,599
hit a road. Yeah.

554
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,839
Speaker 3: Now the counter to that is or south. It's thirty

555
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,680
square miles. So if you're in the western part of

556
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,359
the dunes, you're hiking over hundreds of feet of dune

557
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,079
for thirty miles. Yeah, that's tough, but I could do

558
00:31:54,119 --> 00:31:58,839
it in two days if you want to bet. Yes, yes,

559
00:31:59,799 --> 00:32:01,559
you gotta go over the dune. It's not the trail.

560
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,759
That's why I said two days. Okay, all right, we'll

561
00:32:05,799 --> 00:32:08,680
do a GoFundMe. We'll have Joe will time him. Thirty

562
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,599
miles and two days in the dunes, I could totally

563
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,240
How fast do you think you could go up a

564
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:14,400
seven hundred foot dune?

565
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: Oh? Very slowly but sliding down? I guess, Do I

566
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,000
get cardboard? Nope, you gotta go and like Brian did

567
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,440
with nothing, all right, two and a half days. Okay,

568
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:30,839
But I get what you're saying.

569
00:32:31,279 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 3: Anywhere in those dunes you should be able to see

570
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,519
those mountains to the north or the east.

571
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you have a compass. Well, he didn't

572
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,720
have anything, so I knet that I understand that. And

573
00:32:39,759 --> 00:32:40,559
it was this.

574
00:32:40,759 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 3: It was winter and it was storming and you couldn't

575
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:44,920
see anything. Yeah, so I get it.

576
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: Yep.

577
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,839
Speaker 3: But I get your point though. You know, seeing this,

578
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,160
you wonder how could someone get lost there? But it happens.

579
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: It happened twice.

580
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, we're gonna keep going on theme. Oh

581
00:32:55,839 --> 00:32:58,680
that's a cool picture. This is a beautiful picture. It's

582
00:32:58,759 --> 00:33:03,119
crazy to think that's in Colle Dorado. This is January. Yeah,

583
00:33:03,559 --> 00:33:05,039
that looks so cool. I want to hike there.

584
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, man, if you go along a ridge too,

585
00:33:09,079 --> 00:33:12,119
just follow ridges. Yeah, that looks super cool. Yeah, we

586
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:12,519
gotta go.

587
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: I mean, if you didn't tell me this is Colorado'd

588
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,680
be like, is this this Sahara or the Gobi Desert.

589
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so cool. It's very cool.

590
00:33:21,079 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: All right, Okay, back to the timeline. All right, we're

591
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,079
moving on to disappearance number two. So it is Monday,

592
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,519
May eighth of twenty seventeen. Sklinsky re enters Great Sand

593
00:33:31,559 --> 00:33:35,079
Dunes National Park. He is last seen departying from the

594
00:33:35,119 --> 00:33:38,960
sand Pit Picnic Area. This is a backcountry access point

595
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,519
along the Madonna Pass primitive road near the Madonna Creek.

596
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,880
This time around, he did not obtain a backcountry permit.

597
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,039
He didn't tell anyone where he was going, he didn't

598
00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:53,160
leave an itinerary with the park, and he didn't even

599
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,599
tell family or friends of his exact locations. So those

600
00:33:56,599 --> 00:33:59,400
are all big no nos in Mike and Joe's Hiking

601
00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:00,359
one oh one book.

602
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a perfect storm of getting lost not getting found.

603
00:34:03,319 --> 00:34:07,039
Speaker 3: Yes, And obviously because of this, searchers initially had no

604
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,840
clear idea where he intended to hike, which later complicated

605
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:18,440
and delayed their response. So some reports from the Alamo

606
00:34:18,599 --> 00:34:23,960
Alamosa Valley Courier Park that's a newspaper, note that he

607
00:34:24,119 --> 00:34:27,960
was captured on the park entrance station camera entering alone

608
00:34:28,039 --> 00:34:31,320
on May eighth, which is pretty much why that date

609
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,719
is treated as the firm last scene date, even though

610
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,559
his car may have been spotted a day earlier. It's

611
00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:43,480
now between May eighth and May thirteenth. His car remained

612
00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:47,480
at sand Pit. A ranger eventually noted the unattended vehicle

613
00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:51,039
after several days. One early report said the car had

614
00:34:51,079 --> 00:34:54,039
been seen there since May seventh, which slightly conflicts with

615
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,360
the May eighth last scene date. And I read something

616
00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:03,320
that the the park rangers that found his vehicle for

617
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,239
the second time, were flabbergasted when they realized it was

618
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,599
his car. Oh, because they had just because they just

619
00:35:12,679 --> 00:35:15,519
had spent days searching for him a few months earlier,

620
00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:17,960
and it was still fresh in their minds and all

621
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,679
of a sudden, this guy's car is back in the

622
00:35:19,679 --> 00:35:22,440
park and it's been unintended for several days. Yeah, They're like,

623
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,280
oh man, here we go again. So it is just

624
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,760
kind of crazy. That's just another thing that we don't

625
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,760
really come across. And we're covering these cases. It's now

626
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:38,599
May fourteenth of twenty seventeen, and the hiker they reported

627
00:35:38,679 --> 00:35:41,920
just a generic hiker missing in Great Sand Dunes and

628
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,559
it was later identified as this person was Brian Skolinsky.

629
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,760
And this was around the time a park ranger notes

630
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,119
his vehicles still parked in the lot and another multi

631
00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:58,199
agency search is initiated. So between May fourteenth and May seventeenth,

632
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,400
crewse searched a fourteen square mile area around Mount Herod

633
00:36:03,119 --> 00:36:06,400
which is thirteen three hundred and forty five feet and

634
00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:11,280
the Sangre de Cristo Wilderness, which is very high rugged

635
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,760
preserve east of the dunes. Agencies included dog teams from

636
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,079
Larimire Park and el Paso County's US Forest Service Monument

637
00:36:20,119 --> 00:36:28,159
Hell Attack Flight for Life, and Colorado dfpc's multi mission aircraft. Unfortunately,

638
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,360
and we see this a lot in our cases, as

639
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,559
high winds and snow hampered flight operations, scentwork, and ground safety.

640
00:36:35,599 --> 00:36:40,440
And because of a lot of the bad weather conditions

641
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,440
and a lack of evidence, the search actually was scaled

642
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,760
back on Thursday, May eighteenth of twenty seventeen. An official

643
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,519
NPS incident summary, which they called the Morning Report, notes

644
00:36:51,559 --> 00:36:55,639
the operation, which began May fourteenth, had been scaled back

645
00:36:56,119 --> 00:36:59,079
last Thursday due to snow and strong winds, with the

646
00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:01,800
focus area described like I said, is fourteen square miles

647
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,280
around Mount Herod. It is now late May to June

648
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:10,119
twenty seventeen. After the first week, full scale efforts wound

649
00:37:10,119 --> 00:37:12,840
down due to weather, safety and lack of leads. The

650
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:17,480
case remained open while Cruz continued targeted checks as feasible,

651
00:37:18,039 --> 00:37:22,440
but sadly, Sunday, June twenty fifth of twenty seventeen, two

652
00:37:22,559 --> 00:37:27,360
hikers reported finding a deceased person in steep alpine terrain

653
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,280
between Milwaukee Peak and Marble Mountain in the Great Sand

654
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,199
Dunes National Park. This is well east of the dunefield

655
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,239
and outside of the initial focus near Mount Herod. So

656
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,880
I don't know if you can find Milwaukee Peak in

657
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:48,719
Marble Mountain. It's very interesting for yeah, that his remains

658
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,719
were found over here, which is way out.

659
00:37:51,639 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 2: Of Yeah, it's like real far away. Yeah, so that's

660
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,719
Marble Mountain, Milwaukee Piece right there, So zoom out because

661
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,039
he started by the dunes, I mean that.

662
00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:05,599
Speaker 3: There's the dune's there, that's he started at. Did you

663
00:38:05,639 --> 00:38:08,880
find the he started at the picnic what was it called?

664
00:38:09,599 --> 00:38:15,199
You find it here? Sand pit picnic area? Because I'm

665
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,199
just curious if that is towards the north end of

666
00:38:18,199 --> 00:38:20,400
the dunes or if Okay.

667
00:38:20,119 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 2: So that's that's one heck of a hike. Yeah that yeah,

668
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:26,519
I mean not only crazy.

669
00:38:26,679 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 3: I don't know if he took roads to get there,

670
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,719
but his car was at the picnic area, so he

671
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,960
was on foot at some point he had to go

672
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,000
over some crazy mountains. Yeah, there's that's wild. What's the

673
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:43,039
crow fly distance? I'm curious, it's gotta be fifty miles.

674
00:38:43,119 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 2: Let me make sure you get the right spot Marble Mountain.

675
00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:48,480
Is that ridge right there? I would say fifty miles?

676
00:38:49,159 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 3: No, maybe not no, thirty okay, never mind thirteen. But

677
00:38:55,079 --> 00:38:58,159
as a crow flies. As a crow flies, yeah, he's

678
00:38:58,199 --> 00:38:59,880
not going to go straight. You'd be going over some

679
00:39:00,599 --> 00:39:02,159
so there is a road he could have taken.

680
00:39:02,559 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 2: I was pretty close, like got close. I was like

681
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,119
that guy on the internet who just picked spots and

682
00:39:06,159 --> 00:39:07,119
they're road close.

683
00:39:09,159 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was only so it's about thirteen and a

684
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,679
half miles as the crow flies.

685
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,639
Speaker 2: Oh wow, and I kneeled this one right on Marble Mountain.

686
00:39:18,119 --> 00:39:20,239
Well he was. His remains were found in between Marble

687
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,920
and Milwaukee. Yeah, but that's yeah, as a crow fly

688
00:39:23,039 --> 00:39:25,320
thirty miles, that's still no small feet.

689
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 3: No, and in terrible conditions. The weather was pretty bad,

690
00:39:28,599 --> 00:39:32,559
with no gear, with presumably no gear, we don't really

691
00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:36,159
know what he had on the second disappearance. But like

692
00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:39,639
I said, sadly he was found. I'm guessing he was

693
00:39:39,679 --> 00:39:43,880
on this trail maybe, Yeah, that's what I would guess. Yeah,

694
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,360
it just says he was found between Marble Peak and

695
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:47,760
Milwaukee Peak and Marble Mountain.

696
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 2: Okay, get a view from there.

697
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,679
Speaker 3: Monday, June twenty sixth of twenty seventeen, a Flight for

698
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,519
Life helicopter performs a technical recovering airlift of the remains.

699
00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:02,079
This was confirmed by a park spokesp person. That is beautiful,

700
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,360
it really is. And any of the dunes out there,

701
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,079
it's crazy. I want to go now.

702
00:40:09,199 --> 00:40:11,280
Speaker 2: I don't think that's the dunes either, that's it. I mean,

703
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,679
those are dunes, but it's not the Great Sand Dunes. No, no,

704
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:16,960
oh no, it's just a sand patch. Yep, that's the

705
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,880
other side. It's wild.

706
00:40:19,599 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 3: Monday, June twenty sixth, his remains were airlifted out of there,

707
00:40:23,679 --> 00:40:27,880
and Tuesday the twenty seventh and Wednesday the twenty eighth,

708
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:34,119
the Suwach County Corner Tom Parrin officially identifies the remains

709
00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:39,119
as Brian Skolinski. In states no foul plays suspected, but

710
00:40:39,599 --> 00:40:44,679
cause and manner of death are still under investigation, and

711
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,920
there has been no public statement ever made on this

712
00:40:48,039 --> 00:40:50,199
case about cause of death.

713
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 2: Since then.

714
00:40:51,119 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 3: I was thinking this would be a good Foyer request

715
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,719
to try to get that information because I'd be curious

716
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,960
to know what happened to him. And then finally just

717
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:03,679
I had two brief little notes on the case. Estimates

718
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,400
put the cost of both search operations between one hundred

719
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,280
and eighty and two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, So

720
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,920
just put that into perspective. Whenever you start getting helicopters involved,

721
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,079
the cost goes up quickly.

722
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 2: I can't.

723
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 3: I think we once found out it was something like

724
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,400
eighteen hundred dollars an hour for the helicopters to operate everything,

725
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,599
the fuel and the pilots. And then I talked to

726
00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:35,119
this earlier. But this case is it's so extremely rare

727
00:41:35,159 --> 00:41:37,840
to have the same person going missing in the same

728
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,079
park in the same year that almost never happens.

729
00:41:41,679 --> 00:41:44,039
Speaker 2: Do you think he was like emboldened by surviving the

730
00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:45,039
first time? I don't know.

731
00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 3: We're gonna get into the theories, all right, all right,

732
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,000
we'll get int the theories quick. So here's likely theories

733
00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:53,480
that you know, and we're just going to cover the

734
00:41:53,519 --> 00:41:57,280
second disappearance, because obviously he was rescued after the first one.

735
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,400
So the main theory is exposure. He basically got off

736
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,039
route in serious train, ran out of energy in gear,

737
00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:07,519
and succumbs a cold and exposure. This fits perfectly with

738
00:42:07,599 --> 00:42:10,039
this case for many reasons. So he was last seen

739
00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:13,280
departing in the sand Pit picnic area on May eighth,

740
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,320
with no permanent itinerary The main search area focused on

741
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:22,280
the fourteen square mile zone near Mount Herod, and that

742
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,159
was a steep, high elevation country east of the dunes.

743
00:42:25,159 --> 00:42:28,559
He was ultimately found weeks later between Waukie Peak and

744
00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:32,039
Marble Mountain and even more rugged alpine area that hadn't

745
00:42:32,079 --> 00:42:35,599
been heavily searched, and search operations this whole time were

746
00:42:35,639 --> 00:42:39,800
constrained by snow and high winds, which means you know,

747
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,000
almost he was certainly dealing with that in the higher elevations,

748
00:42:43,599 --> 00:42:45,840
and he was a solo hiker with a known history

749
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:51,360
of underestimating conditions, wandering into complex terrain with the May

750
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:56,639
storms rolling in very strong risk of hypothermy exposure, and

751
00:42:57,519 --> 00:43:00,960
so that's leading theory. Another one is fall or accident,

752
00:43:01,159 --> 00:43:04,159
so he might have slipped or fell in a steep gully,

753
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,880
snowfield or cliff section and died from the trauma. This

754
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,280
fits again pretty good with this case. The Milwaukee Peak

755
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,239
Marble Mountain zone is steep, broken country with snowfields, talus

756
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,840
and potential cliffs. Hikers didn't find him until late June,

757
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,480
which really suggests he was in a place that wasn't

758
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,079
easily visible or obvious during the initial search. And in

759
00:43:26,119 --> 00:43:30,079
a fall scenario, injury and mobilization often combined with cold

760
00:43:30,119 --> 00:43:32,880
and hypothermia in the first twenty four hours, so it's

761
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,599
very plausible at the corners no foul play suspected. Note

762
00:43:36,679 --> 00:43:40,400
could still be consistent with a death from trauma or exposure.

763
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,480
Another theory that kind of piggybacks into the first theories

764
00:43:44,559 --> 00:43:47,880
is the route finding air plus the storm equalled he

765
00:43:48,039 --> 00:43:51,519
was trapped and then exposed, so he may have climbed

766
00:43:52,599 --> 00:43:55,599
too high or too far from obvious exit routes, then

767
00:43:55,639 --> 00:43:58,679
got pinned by weather or snow conditions or terrain traps.

768
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,719
The storm's o will reduce visibility. It could easily erase

769
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,440
his tracks and can block steep snow slopes from safe descent.

770
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,719
He could have hunkered down, become hypothermic, and died without

771
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,400
a dramatic fall in this type of theory, and sadly,

772
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,119
given his past patterns of pushing on when he should

773
00:44:18,119 --> 00:44:22,920
have turned around or overruling caution, this theory kind of

774
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:24,920
makes a lot of sense in this case.

775
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:26,639
Speaker 2: Here's a few theories.

776
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,519
Speaker 3: A possible but less likely so medical event could have

777
00:44:29,519 --> 00:44:34,119
been something with heart related stroke, altitude related. An eternal

778
00:44:34,159 --> 00:44:38,079
medical event could have dropped him with the wilderness conditions

779
00:44:38,159 --> 00:44:42,719
finishing him, and this theory works. He's forty years old

780
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,639
at altitude, a cardiac event, stroke or undiagnosed condition is

781
00:44:46,679 --> 00:44:51,639
not out of the realm of possibilities, especially under extreme exertion, stress,

782
00:44:51,679 --> 00:44:55,519
and cold. Altitude in that area can push twelve thirteen

783
00:44:55,559 --> 00:44:58,920
thousand feet. It could easily have had an altitude related

784
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:03,800
issue that with hypothermia frostbite, you know it's not going

785
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,480
to end well. Another theory that's possible is maybe he

786
00:45:07,559 --> 00:45:12,840
had some kind of psychological spiral so increasingly risky decision making,

787
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,280
not suicide per se, but a mindset that made him

788
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,119
take extreme risks without normal self preservation breaks. The main

789
00:45:20,159 --> 00:45:22,760
reason why this could be a theory is based on

790
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,880
his February interview where he openly framed the first trip

791
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,719
as a midlife crisis in chasing a personal mission. He'd

792
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,920
barely survived being lost for five nights in the winter,

793
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,719
yet returned to the same park alone just a few

794
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,880
months later and again went off into the rugged backcunchy

795
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,039
with no permit our itinerary. So that pattern suggests at

796
00:45:43,159 --> 00:45:46,719
minimum a high tolerance for risk or a strong internal

797
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,639
drive that might push him deeper into dangerous train rather

798
00:45:49,679 --> 00:45:53,480
than turning around. This is less likely a cause of

799
00:45:53,519 --> 00:45:56,880
death and more of what they called it, a risk amplifier.

800
00:45:57,199 --> 00:46:00,360
He obviously probably succumbed to exposure, but this is pushed

801
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:05,400
him into that fate and the least likely was probably

802
00:46:06,199 --> 00:46:10,679
intentional self harm. There's no evidence of this. The only

803
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,760
you know, there are scenarios where people use the wilderness

804
00:46:15,079 --> 00:46:18,960
as their method of self harm, and we don't have

805
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,440
any evidence that's what he was doing here. But it's

806
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:28,079
a little suspicious that after a near death experience literally

807
00:46:28,199 --> 00:46:30,639
two months earlier, he came back to the same park

808
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,000
and went into the same wilderness. I think most people

809
00:46:34,039 --> 00:46:37,440
would probably never go back to that park if that

810
00:46:37,559 --> 00:46:37,920
happened to.

811
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,639
Speaker 2: Him the first or they'd be overly prepared, Yeah, like

812
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:43,519
after learning a lesson the first time.

813
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I'm not saying this is a This is

814
00:46:46,039 --> 00:46:49,199
just one of the theories that was floated for why

815
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,800
he would have gone back so soon, unprepared again and

816
00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:58,239
pushed into really hard parts of the area. So there

817
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,760
was really no evidence. There was no public reporting, no

818
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:05,440
suicide notes, no explicit statements of suicidal intent or behavioral

819
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,800
flags from family or friends in any of the sources

820
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,239
currently available. So just a theory that was floated out there.

821
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,480
I figured I would mention it just because of how

822
00:47:14,519 --> 00:47:18,199
weird this case is. We've never had this happen in

823
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,280
a case where someone goes back to the same park.

824
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 2: Is this the only case that that's ever happened? The

825
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,599
only oneone got lost twice in the same park.

826
00:47:27,159 --> 00:47:30,199
Speaker 3: I'm sure it's probably happened once or twice, but we've

827
00:47:30,199 --> 00:47:32,559
covered a lot of cases. I've looked at a lot

828
00:47:32,559 --> 00:47:35,519
of additional cases as I'm researching for the show, and

829
00:47:36,079 --> 00:47:38,519
I've never come across one. Yeah, it doesn't mean it

830
00:47:38,519 --> 00:47:42,199
hasn't happened, but it's pretty rare. Yeah, So what do

831
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,199
you think, Joe.

832
00:47:43,599 --> 00:47:47,119
Speaker 2: I think this one's obvious. Yeah, I think he just

833
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,639
was unprepared and succumbed to the elements. I even't think

834
00:47:50,639 --> 00:47:53,320
there was an injury. It is probably just the same situation,

835
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,559
but he wasn't as lucky this time. Yeah, I think

836
00:47:56,559 --> 00:47:59,440
you're right. Yeah, that's a lot. That's a huge distance

837
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,960
to travel with no gear, probably not enough food in

838
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,920
treacherous conditions, and I think.

839
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,599
Speaker 3: The odds of you getting out of that scenario the

840
00:48:09,679 --> 00:48:10,199
first time.

841
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 2: See that's where it's and then you go back. That's

842
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,760
where I wonder if part of the midlife crisis was

843
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,400
not necessarily like a suicidal thing. He's like, I didn't

844
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,599
finish it, I'm gonna do it this time. No, I

845
00:48:21,639 --> 00:48:24,360
think it's more of a like a blatant disregard for

846
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,599
his own safety. It's just like kind of I don't know.

847
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,000
You hear people that are not necessarily gonna purposely make

848
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:34,239
something bad happen to them, but they're also just going

849
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,360
to go into a situation and not care of the outcome.

850
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,239
So it's kind of like playing with fire. He's like,

851
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,960
I made it the first time, I'm gonna do it again,

852
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,800
and if I don't make it out whatever, I'm not saying,

853
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,599
but I'm just wondering if that's kind of the case,

854
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:53,079
because it's obviously he didn't make any good decisions after

855
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,199
what you'd think would be a huge learned lesson of

856
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,119
what not to do, and he just went back and

857
00:48:59,159 --> 00:49:02,800
did it again, and he was so lucky the first time. Yeah,

858
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,079
there's no reason why he should have lived the first time.

859
00:49:05,199 --> 00:49:09,079
Speaker 3: And props to him surviving five days out there with

860
00:49:09,159 --> 00:49:12,280
the gear he had when absolutely nothing short of amazing.

861
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that's like mental power at that point. Yeah,

862
00:49:15,599 --> 00:49:17,440
I just I don't get why you would go back.

863
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,079
That's kind of where I just don't understand it. I think, yeah,

864
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,280
he had some mental thing going on. If he's if

865
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,280
he's openly saying he's having a midlife crisis, yeah, you

866
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,039
can imagine it's potentially a lot worse than that, and

867
00:49:30,079 --> 00:49:33,639
he's trying to find meaning he's doing cross country trips

868
00:49:33,679 --> 00:49:36,000
out of nowhere. Yeah. I just don't think he was

869
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,719
in the right mental space to making proper decisions, and

870
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,840
unfortunately he succumbed to the elements. Yeah, so that's the

871
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:43,800
only thing that makes sense.

872
00:49:44,079 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wouldn't say that, but we have the evidence

873
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,440
from the first disappearance, and he stated it himself that

874
00:49:50,519 --> 00:49:51,800
he was going through something.

875
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was on a mission.

876
00:49:54,559 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 3: And I feel like maybe he he like because he

877
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,440
didn't complete the mission the first time, He's like, I'm

878
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,559
going back and I'm doing it again. Yep, I survived,

879
00:50:03,599 --> 00:50:06,079
I'll get out of there again. We mentioned that he

880
00:50:06,199 --> 00:50:10,880
overestimated conditions and things in the first time, so maybe

881
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,079
thinking like, oh it's may now, it won't be as bad,

882
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,719
it'll be warmer out. Yeah, I don't know. I clear,

883
00:50:17,119 --> 00:50:21,440
I think what happened. I'm positive that I think what

884
00:50:21,599 --> 00:50:23,760
happened to him is pretty clearcut. But I'm hung up

885
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,440
on why he would go back. That's the mystery. That's

886
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,320
exactly why. I think it has to do with his

887
00:50:29,679 --> 00:50:30,199
just men.

888
00:50:30,199 --> 00:50:33,559
Speaker 2: Kind of like a psychological thing going on. Yeah, like

889
00:50:33,599 --> 00:50:36,360
it's not a mental illness, but he needed a compression

890
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,719
the huck. I don't know, he was in a completely

891
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,519
different spot. Yeah, I think he just I don't know.

892
00:50:41,559 --> 00:50:43,800
Maybe he enjoyed the adventure, maybe he had a rush

893
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:45,400
from the first one. If he was not in a

894
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,760
good state, I don't know, he went back and just

895
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,199
did it again. Yeah. So I think all of you

896
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,679
listening should log on and let us know what you think.

897
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,480
Thanks again for tuning into our show. We appreciate all

898
00:50:56,519 --> 00:50:58,920
of you for listening and sharing locations unknown with your

899
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,360
friends and family. Be sure to like and follow us

900
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,199
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901
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902
00:51:07,039 --> 00:51:10,519
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903
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store to buy some sweet Sweet swag, and you can

904
00:51:13,519 --> 00:51:18,440
subscribe to Patreon Apple. Patreon is connected to Spotify, right, Yeah,

905
00:51:18,519 --> 00:51:20,440
you're patrons. You get it on Spotify too, So if

906
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:22,800
you didn't know that, if you're a Patron subscriber, you

907
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:23,880
can log into Spotify and.

908
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 3: Get it in the video, videos and audio through Spotify. Yeah,

909
00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:28,920
I don't think we've ever talked about that.

910
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: You can also be on YouTube and get when you're

911
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,280
subscribed to get access to special events and additional shows

912
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,559
for paid customers only. And lastly, when enjoying the beauty

913
00:51:38,599 --> 00:51:41,920
of nature, whether backpacking, camping, or simply taking a walk,

914
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,800
always remember to leave no trace. Thanks and we will

915
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:47,280
see you all next time.