1
00:00:12,839 --> 00:00:15,279
Speaker 1: Who is this, I don't know. It's me. It's amid

2
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,960
the Ruins. It's a guy who makes dire Way of music.

3
00:00:20,039 --> 00:00:21,519
It's amid the Ruins.

4
00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:22,280
Speaker 2: And since.

5
00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:52,759
Speaker 1: Dire Way Music, what I've talked about in you know,

6
00:00:52,799 --> 00:00:57,719
probably one hundred articles of Jason Aalysis is the implementation

7
00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,640
of the AI smart grit and giant smart cities, which

8
00:01:01,679 --> 00:01:04,599
is what IBM talks about publicly building. And that's where

9
00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:06,239
we're going, and that's what I think we have to

10
00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,280
be really concerned about. So all of these tensions. They

11
00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:14,879
are putting a long term strategy to basically get everybody

12
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,359
moved into mega cities. They'll be forced to they'll be

13
00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,760
forced off of land and so forth for an environmental

14
00:01:20,799 --> 00:01:27,200
reasons and basically concocted and invented environmental nonsense. Then you'll

15
00:01:27,239 --> 00:01:30,239
be stuck in some hell a whole megacity, in a

16
00:01:32,079 --> 00:01:36,879
basically a carbon size apartment, living over a target or something,

17
00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:39,680
or inside of a target or a Walmart. As I

18
00:01:39,719 --> 00:01:42,560
said several years ago, it's actually coming true. Now there's

19
00:01:42,599 --> 00:02:30,280
actually target cities. This is all of the long term

20
00:02:30,319 --> 00:02:33,159
globalist strategy. But to get there, you've got to have

21
00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:39,719
the constant clash the constant alchemical blending and mixing and

22
00:02:39,759 --> 00:02:45,039
smashing together right out of Manicheanism to produce the convergence,

23
00:02:45,199 --> 00:02:48,759
to produce the synthesis. And that's what's crucial in all

24
00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:54,000
this and what is absolutely true from an alchemical esotery, philosophical,

25
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,400
angioglotical perspective the fact that the ruling elite seek to

26
00:02:58,439 --> 00:05:11,680
be host you know, Jason alsos dot com. You can't

27
00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,199
try to fix today's problems political. This is what so

28
00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:20,240
many people that all circles and all ride and whatever

29
00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:22,959
on media, they all seem to think that there's like

30
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,800
a political solution to man it's problems. And really the

31
00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:31,399
whole of modernity is built on this neopagan concept of

32
00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,519
political salvation, and there is no political salvation for mana

33
00:05:35,879 --> 00:06:15,639
because man's problems are not essentially political, they're spiritual. The

34
00:06:15,759 --> 00:06:18,439
hierarchy of how man views himself in the world has

35
00:06:18,439 --> 00:06:19,160
been inverted.

36
00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,199
Speaker 3: I've covered over and over and over the white papers.

37
00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,879
Speaker 1: That actually discussed how to invert and subvert that changing

38
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,000
images of man things like this. So what has to

39
00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,560
happen is that the inversion has to be reverted back

40
00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,240
to the way it needs to be, and that means

41
00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,800
that first and foremost for man, it is the spiritual issues.

42
00:06:38,879 --> 00:06:42,680
Those come first. Then we have the things like the

43
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,639
philosophy and the family and the social issues and things

44
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,199
like that that comes next, and race, where ethnicity can

45
00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,079
be classed as part of that. That is, in other words,

46
00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,279
you caring for your people is just a broader extension

47
00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,920
of the family, the tribe, the nation.

48
00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:01,920
Speaker 3: Right, It all depends on what we mean by these.

49
00:07:01,759 --> 00:07:02,720
Speaker 4: Words in these terms.

50
00:07:02,759 --> 00:07:06,319
Speaker 1: Now America and Americanism, it's the first attempt at a

51
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,000
completely compositional nation. And this is well known. This is

52
00:07:10,519 --> 00:07:14,680
not debated in political theory. I think even Abraham Lincoln

53
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:15,519
referred to it, though.

54
00:09:27,960 --> 00:10:04,320
Speaker 5: Jaye Ion Jay Snells. It's Jay Dyer Jay's analysis.

55
00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:19,240
Speaker 1: All right, welcome, we are live on another installment of

56
00:10:19,399 --> 00:10:21,720
Q and A. And as we said, we're going to

57
00:10:21,799 --> 00:10:24,679
be doing Q and A from the audience as well

58
00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,120
as the super chats you can super chat by a

59
00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:28,960
stream lab, and we're going to cover this excellent little

60
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,360
book that is overlooked. A lot of people overlook this

61
00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,519
book and they don't think that iconography, you know, they think, well,

62
00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,799
it's kind of a neat thing that relates to worship,

63
00:10:38,879 --> 00:10:41,960
and you know, Roman Catholics don't really disagree with us

64
00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,600
over that, and we all have that in common. And

65
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,840
that's really just a question for Protestants to kind of

66
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,720
solve on their own if they're looking at Orthodoxy, or

67
00:10:49,759 --> 00:10:53,000
maybe it's a problem that Islam has with Orthodox iconography

68
00:10:53,039 --> 00:10:53,559
or something like that.

69
00:10:53,519 --> 00:10:54,519
Speaker 3: But that's not actually the case.

70
00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,799
Speaker 1: In fact, everything in this book will argue on the

71
00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,320
basis of Christology. Right, we're going to see the Saint

72
00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,399
Cyril's Christology. We're going to see that Calcidon dialphysitism is

73
00:11:04,519 --> 00:11:08,559
crucial to how it's possible to have iconography, and then

74
00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,679
of course the Fifth and Sixth Councils. The Christology in

75
00:11:12,759 --> 00:11:16,519
relationship to energies is going to be relevant to how

76
00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,840
we're able to do Christology the triad as well. Right,

77
00:11:19,879 --> 00:11:22,360
if you don't have a nature person distinction. For example,

78
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,480
we're going to see that it's impossible to do iconography

79
00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:31,399
because everyone agrees, whether it's the iconoclasts or the icono files,

80
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,240
everyone agrees that you can't image the divine nature, the

81
00:11:36,279 --> 00:11:39,200
divine ussia. Well, now we're presented with a problem because

82
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,039
if we can't image the divine nature, and we know

83
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,120
that Christ can't be split or divided.

84
00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,320
Speaker 3: What are we picturing?

85
00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,000
Speaker 1: What are we imaging when we image the logos the

86
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,759
Son of God incarnate. If it's just as human nature,

87
00:11:52,919 --> 00:11:55,399
then we're dividing Christ. So we're going to need the

88
00:11:55,440 --> 00:12:00,399
proper theological bag baggage, a toolkit. You could say that

89
00:12:00,519 --> 00:12:04,720
the proper theological toolkit philosophical toolkit to allow for the

90
00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:09,960
nuances and the distinctions that make iconography possible, of course,

91
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,879
without falling into some crystological error and.

92
00:12:13,879 --> 00:12:15,919
Speaker 3: The christological doctrines. As we'll see.

93
00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,440
Speaker 1: As you've heard me say for many, many years, correct

94
00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,960
Christology is a direct reflection of correct, correct triadology. If

95
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,600
you get your triadology messed up, your Christology is going

96
00:12:24,639 --> 00:12:27,360
to mess up, and by extension, your worship will mess up,

97
00:12:27,399 --> 00:12:30,519
because your worship is going to reflect your view of

98
00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,200
how God relates to the world. Your sacramentology, it's going

99
00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,279
to be messed up. Right, if you don't have the

100
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,919
energy's doctrine, there's absolutely no way to have a correct

101
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,679
doctrine of the sacraments. And likewise the ecclesiology, you're not

102
00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:44,879
going to have a correct doctrine of the church is

103
00:12:44,919 --> 00:12:48,480
about a Christ because you don't have the possibility the

104
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,480
energies in terms of their imminent presence in the church.

105
00:12:52,799 --> 00:12:55,200
Real quick, before we get to the chat. Now we've

106
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,320
got open VC in the discord. Father Deacon Ananius is

107
00:12:59,399 --> 00:13:02,440
joining me and I put his Twitter into the chat.

108
00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:03,840
Speaker 3: Be sure and follow him on Twitter.

109
00:13:03,879 --> 00:13:06,399
Speaker 1: He's wanting to kind of grow that a bit, and

110
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,799
you can also follow his YouTube channel. It's also in

111
00:13:08,879 --> 00:13:12,600
the show description. And then we may have other mods

112
00:13:12,879 --> 00:13:16,360
in the discord popping on. So we're going to be

113
00:13:16,399 --> 00:13:20,360
answering questions first, me and Father Deacon. So any atheists,

114
00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:26,919
any Muslims, Protestants, Roman Catholics, it's open for him. I'd

115
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,440
like to give that open invitation if anybody wants to.

116
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,200
Speaker 3: We will give preference to the super chats.

117
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,200
Speaker 1: Obviously, if you support the stream via the stream labs,

118
00:13:36,279 --> 00:13:37,840
you click that link and you can do a super

119
00:13:37,879 --> 00:13:42,279
chat via stream labs. We will answer your apologetic questions.

120
00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,960
One question I'd like to address, which is a new

121
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,840
thing that the Roman Catholics are relying on to try

122
00:13:47,879 --> 00:13:52,799
to play gotcha, is that in the Eborro debate from

123
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,120
a couple of years ago, I made the statement that

124
00:13:55,639 --> 00:13:59,759
not everything in the ecumenical councils is fallible, and this

125
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,440
is now being spun into Oh I don't I deny

126
00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,960
ecumenical councils. No, no, no. If you go read, if

127
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,240
you pick up say Prices book or any of the

128
00:14:08,279 --> 00:14:11,720
academic books that will treat of the documents out of

129
00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,519
ecumenical councils.

130
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,559
Speaker 3: You'll notice that there are tons of documents.

131
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,879
Speaker 1: There are the minutes of the Council, there are the

132
00:14:18,919 --> 00:14:22,960
various decrees, there are the canons, there's the dogmatic professions

133
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,200
of faith. Right, so there's mountains of documents that actually

134
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,240
go into and are connected to the ancient ecumenical councils.

135
00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,480
Speaker 3: Many of these documents have not even been translated into.

136
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,000
Speaker 1: English, or are still awaiting translation or are in process

137
00:14:38,039 --> 00:14:40,519
of translation. That's why the Richard Price books are so

138
00:14:40,639 --> 00:14:42,480
expensive if you go to Amazon right.

139
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:43,559
Speaker 3: Now to try to get them.

140
00:14:44,759 --> 00:14:47,200
Speaker 1: Now, what the reason I bring this up is that

141
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,320
I was very clear in what sense I said and

142
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:55,679
in what way I said that ecumenical councils the same

143
00:14:55,759 --> 00:14:58,559
status is not accorded to everything in the council. So

144
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,399
the fact that a canon says this does not mean

145
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:06,320
that it's equally authoritative or equally binding as something in

146
00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,879
a dogmatic pronouncement or an anathema or something like this,

147
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,039
or the profession of faith of the council. So, for example,

148
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,519
many canons in the ancient Church are no longer applicable.

149
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:23,000
Many canon laws promulgated by ecumenical councils don't relate to now,

150
00:15:23,759 --> 00:15:26,720
They relate to cities and jurisdictions that don't even exist

151
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,639
in the world. So obviously those canons are not binding.

152
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,639
Speaker 3: This is not even that difficult. It's a it's.

153
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,080
Speaker 1: Just a attempting to play gotcha, as if I meant

154
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,879
that entire ecumenical councils can be denied just willy nilly

155
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:42,840
or something like that. That is not what I said.

156
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,720
I was clearly talking about the context of canons, the

157
00:15:46,799 --> 00:15:50,120
minutes of councils, or which bishops signed on first, or

158
00:15:50,159 --> 00:15:52,960
this kind of that these kinds of details are not

159
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,799
actually part of the dogma of the council. And I

160
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,519
also made the point that, contrary to the Roman Catholics,

161
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,039
actually this problem is the reverse. It's not actually a

162
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:03,960
thing that I'm promoting or an error that I'm promoting.

163
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,759
It's actually a problem that's more applicable to their position,

164
00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:12,440
because the Roman Catholics believe that the theologians writings of

165
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,559
the councils don't even matter. All that matters is what

166
00:16:16,679 --> 00:16:19,919
the Pope approved in this or that council literally, so

167
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:25,080
they will actually ignore the crystological presuppositions of this book,

168
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,639
which is the which is the basis of the Seventh

169
00:16:27,679 --> 00:16:30,639
Council right as well as Saint John Damascus's books on

170
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,840
the Advine images, or they will ignore the theological augmentation

171
00:16:36,039 --> 00:16:38,480
of the Cappadocians in terms of Father being the sole

172
00:16:38,679 --> 00:16:43,559
cause source archae monarchy in the Trinity, and they'll say, well,

173
00:16:43,679 --> 00:16:46,240
it doesn't really matter. We can still have the phillioquay

174
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,799
because later on we decided that we can have the philioquy,

175
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,759
So it doesn't matter that the theologians behind the Constantinople

176
00:16:52,799 --> 00:16:56,240
one actually preclude the possibility of philioquay, because we're only

177
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,399
bound to these specific sections of the councils that the

178
00:16:59,399 --> 00:17:00,000
Pope approved.

179
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:01,679
Speaker 3: So actually their.

180
00:17:01,519 --> 00:17:04,680
Speaker 1: Position is the one that is more ridiculous, more ahistorical,

181
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,319
more absurd, more nonsensical, and without any real factual basis,

182
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,599
and just completely contrary to what is obviously the case

183
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,799
in terms of the theologians of the councils. For example,

184
00:17:17,279 --> 00:17:21,200
could I interpret Ephesus without Saint Cyril's theology? Of course not,

185
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,839
And I don't think anybody would deny this. This is

186
00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:27,359
so patently obvious. Right. Could I interpret and Isicia without

187
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:28,680
Athanasius's theology?

188
00:17:28,759 --> 00:17:29,240
Speaker 3: Of course not.

189
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,039
Speaker 1: Does that mean that everything in Athanasius or everything in

190
00:17:32,079 --> 00:17:36,240
Cyril is infallible? No, nobody believes that, right, But it's

191
00:17:36,279 --> 00:17:39,119
also not the case that in the Romancolic perspective, we're

192
00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:39,920
just going to that.

193
00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:41,880
Speaker 3: Well, I'm saying this is their view.

194
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,359
Speaker 1: Their view is that all that really matters is what

195
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,400
the Pope approves in any given council. And then of

196
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,920
course they themselves are not actually consistent because what is

197
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,799
the first lateran or or or one of the romans

198
00:17:54,839 --> 00:17:58,400
centims I think the six forties that I mean, it's

199
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,480
papally approved. There's no reason for them why it's not acumenical.

200
00:18:01,599 --> 00:18:04,960
But it's not acumenical. So an actual fact, it's their

201
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,160
position that is completely arbitrary, and they know good and

202
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,680
will that I wasn't saying arbitrary that you just I

203
00:18:10,759 --> 00:18:13,400
just I reject documentical cultils when there's a problem. But

204
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,079
I don't like they know that's not what I was

205
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:20,400
arguing specifically talking about canons, this or that canon can't

206
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,839
nobody believes Canon law is infallible. It's not given Davina,

207
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:33,000
it's given by custom. It's the Church law. Now exactly,

208
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,400
Father Deacon, this is the point you always make. Ill,

209
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,920
let's you chime in here, because this is why we

210
00:18:38,039 --> 00:18:41,200
let bishops interpret the canons. Right. When catechumens or people

211
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,119
try to take take upon themselves to interpret canon law

212
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:50,000
at leads to disastrous consequences because there's no nuance, there's

213
00:18:50,039 --> 00:18:52,599
no understanding of the times.

214
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:53,799
Speaker 3: Just because something was in.

215
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,640
Speaker 1: Canon law doesn't mean that it's your job as a

216
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,079
catechuman or an internet person trying to interpret as an

217
00:19:01,079 --> 00:19:02,160
appliant to the church.

218
00:19:02,519 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 2: Right, a weird mix between of pharasitical legalism and which

219
00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:15,720
treats yeah, laws and end in its own right rather

220
00:19:15,759 --> 00:19:19,799
than laws and means to an end. And it's like

221
00:19:19,839 --> 00:19:24,839
a mix and a hybrid with like contient, yeah, the

222
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,759
anthological ethics or something like that. And so that's right.

223
00:19:31,599 --> 00:19:35,240
The Muslim and many even Protestants will have this kind

224
00:19:35,279 --> 00:19:42,680
of idea to you that whatever God reveals is eternal

225
00:19:42,799 --> 00:19:46,759
and there's no nuances it right and whatsoever, and then

226
00:19:46,839 --> 00:19:51,160
everything is an eternal. So if God said to you,

227
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,880
I want you to sustain from abstain from eating bread

228
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,240
for three days, there think well it comes from God,

229
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,559
that's an eternal statement. That would be one instance of

230
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,559
kind of lack of a nuance. But the idea with

231
00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:11,119
the laws that again, what is Christ say, all of

232
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:17,640
the laws summed up in this. Yeah, I love God

233
00:20:17,839 --> 00:20:20,160
with all heart and mind, soul of love neighbor itself.

234
00:20:21,319 --> 00:20:27,079
So if it goes against that, if applying the law

235
00:20:27,559 --> 00:20:30,680
the letter goes against what it's actually trying to achieve,

236
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,759
then it defeats the whole purpose of law. And that's

237
00:20:35,799 --> 00:20:39,039
why God's given the grace and authority to the bishops

238
00:20:39,559 --> 00:20:45,160
to understand that kind of context to see that. I

239
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,000
think about it this way. I was thinking about this

240
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:52,160
and ethics that if you have these kind of universal

241
00:20:52,559 --> 00:20:56,720
non nuance kind of compt you you should always give

242
00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:02,279
back property to its rightful owner and your neighbor. That's

243
00:21:02,319 --> 00:21:05,599
the law, let's say. And you got to apply that

244
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,200
and just stick with it, you know, in a wooden

245
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,440
literal fashion. Every single time. Now, what do you do

246
00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:14,559
when your neighbor loans you a gun for hunting and

247
00:21:15,599 --> 00:21:18,759
then he tells you he's he's been drinking and he's

248
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,680
and the serious depression, wants to commit suicide. And by

249
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,720
the way, he wants his gun back. Well, the losses

250
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:31,839
that you've got to give your property back to its

251
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:37,680
rightful owners. So that kind of attitude that you see

252
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:44,319
among people, especially layman, young inquirers or catech humans, it's

253
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,279
disastrous to apply that kind of You leave that to

254
00:21:47,319 --> 00:21:48,200
the bishops to.

255
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean imagine and imagine relatives when you go go.

256
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,079
I mean I've read. I've been reading can of law

257
00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,279
for many years. I'm not a Candona expert. Personally, I'll

258
00:21:59,279 --> 00:22:01,519
find canon law very boring. I don't find it for

259
00:22:01,559 --> 00:22:04,119
that interesting. It's it's there's people who are into that

260
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,319
good that's their job.

261
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 3: That's not what I'm into.

262
00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 1: And when you read the law, the canons of the councils,

263
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,799
you get into canon law, you get into the canons

264
00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:16,240
of Sartika, you get into the canons of of ephesis,

265
00:22:16,279 --> 00:22:20,119
get into the canons of Gangra, of the African synods,

266
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,799
and how they're reaffirmed in Trollo and Seventh Council.

267
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 3: I know all this stuff, but the point is that

268
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,000
those are just church laws most of the time, not

269
00:22:28,039 --> 00:22:28,519
all the time.

270
00:22:28,599 --> 00:22:31,799
Speaker 1: Sometimes they relate to theology, and they are relevant to today.

271
00:22:32,079 --> 00:22:34,960
But it's not the lay person's job to try to

272
00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:38,279
like comb through mountains of canon law to figure out

273
00:22:38,279 --> 00:22:42,720
what's applicable to given situations. That's what I'm not a bishop.

274
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:44,640
I don't and i'm not don't want to be. I

275
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,880
don't have any interest in trying to apply ancient church

276
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,279
laws to today. But guess what, many of them don't apply.

277
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,559
You can't apply the ancient laws about, you know, not

278
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,119
going to the theaters. Okay, that's not talking about going

279
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,240
to a movie. I've actually had Orthodox people get so

280
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,680
like faarisaical. Let's say you're forbidden in the Canons to

281
00:23:06,759 --> 00:23:10,039
go to any movie. Movies are haram, right, they're like

282
00:23:10,079 --> 00:23:14,160
Salafi's or something right like it's it's it's that's what

283
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,720
the right Muslims say when it's forbidden. Right, movies are

284
00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:23,559
hot up right. So uh again, I'm not saying you

285
00:23:23,599 --> 00:23:26,839
should be watching every degenerate Hollywood movie. That's not the point.

286
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,359
The point is that you can't take these ancient canons

287
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,599
that dealt with when in the ancient world somebody went

288
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,039
to the theater and they had to give obeisance to

289
00:23:36,039 --> 00:23:41,359
the pagan gods. That's the context, right, not talking about

290
00:23:41,519 --> 00:23:43,359
and and by the way, the same people who do

291
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,880
this kind of a move in the Orthodox sphere, they

292
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,920
end up going off into schism and they decide that

293
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,759
everybody's you know, lost grace, but them, them, and five people,

294
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,079
five people in a trailer park are the only people

295
00:23:56,079 --> 00:23:59,200
with grace. So it's not your duty to try to

296
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,119
figure that out if you're Orthodox. And simultaneously for the

297
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:07,720
Roman Catholics. Uh, again, I didn't say that ecumenical councils

298
00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:10,920
are wrong. It's just that they're not listening to what

299
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,319
I'm saying, and they're not. It's I'm being very nuanced

300
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,440
and being very clear. There's no ecumenical council that has

301
00:24:16,519 --> 00:24:20,599
a dogmatic profession that any person could reject. I constantly

302
00:24:20,599 --> 00:24:23,759
tell the fact that the Confession of Saint Cyrilo h

303
00:24:24,839 --> 00:24:28,880
excuse me, San Soophronius of Jerusalem, that's a dogmatic confession

304
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,079
that's part of the Six Council, and it teaches the

305
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:37,359
essence energy thing. It also teaches a creation.

306
00:24:37,519 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 2: Right identify that as a straw man fallacy?

307
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, could you illustrate that? Why is that a straw man?

308
00:24:46,759 --> 00:24:51,319
Speaker 2: So again, if you're actually being nuanced on that. So

309
00:24:51,559 --> 00:24:54,920
what's a strong man fallacy? It's when you take your

310
00:24:54,920 --> 00:25:00,559
opponents position iither purposely misrepresented or represent in a way

311
00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:03,759
that's weaker than it actually is for the purpose of

312
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,720
easily knocking down the arm man.

313
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,519
Speaker 5: That's actually an informal fallacy.

314
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 1: The Orthodox believe in ocumenical councils. Here's jaysaying, not everything

315
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,960
in ecumenical councils infallible. And they can be wrong. I said.

316
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:26,400
Canons can be wrong, Yeah, or they can they can

317
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,440
be applied at a point that's no longer applicable. So

318
00:25:29,599 --> 00:25:32,200
there's a maybe wrong is not the right word. There's

319
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,920
a transience to some canons.

320
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:35,759
Speaker 2: Uh.

321
00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:42,279
Speaker 1: Local synods can have canons that are wrong. Sure, but this.

322
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:47,279
Speaker 2: One there's canons about subdeacon's not marry.

323
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 1: It's also possible that a canon can be right in

324
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,319
principle and wrongly applied.

325
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 2: Yes.

326
00:26:01,559 --> 00:26:03,759
Speaker 1: And by the way, the Roman Catholics also believe that

327
00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:08,640
there are many councils that have erroneous canons. They themselves

328
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,599
don't accept Canon twenty eight of Calciledon. They think it's wrong.

329
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 2: That one fits are named jan and I are coming

330
00:26:18,519 --> 00:26:25,480
up with new new faucy names, and that one would

331
00:26:25,519 --> 00:26:28,960
fall under the one that we came up with. I'm

332
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,039
excluded from the critiques, and I'm applying to you, Fallacy.

333
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:34,519
I'm critique.

334
00:26:34,559 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 1: We can't use it on me, Fallacy, exactly right. Remember,

335
00:26:39,559 --> 00:26:41,920
keep in mind the very thing they're accusing me of.

336
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,599
I'm being nuanced and explaining in what sense canons can

337
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,200
be transient temporal, not relevant for all times in.

338
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,839
Speaker 3: All places, which is obviously the case.

339
00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: If some of those canons relate to cities and jurisdictions

340
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,000
and bishoprics that don't even exist anymore. Meanwhile, they turn

341
00:26:58,039 --> 00:27:01,359
around and say that I reject chemical councils because I

342
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,480
said that one of these canons might not.

343
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 3: Be relevant anymore.

344
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,559
Speaker 1: Uh, And they turn around and reject Canon twenty eighty

345
00:27:07,559 --> 00:27:10,599
calcil On. They don't affirm that count, but because that

346
00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:15,960
canon says that the Bishop of Constantinople is equal in

347
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,640
honor and dignity as Rome, and they reject that canon.

348
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 2: So they did the same thing with it as me

349
00:27:25,799 --> 00:27:31,680
when I was not that Sung and Chris Thomas Rosher

350
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,559
are really graceful. But let the people that come on

351
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:39,160
in the comments, right, they're always the oh, this deacon

352
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,039
doesn't know what he's talking about. He says yes and

353
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,880
no in a way yes and a wait, wait a minute.

354
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,640
I thought those are just called distinctions. I thought Thomas

355
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,559
and Roman Catholics love distinction. And now I can't do

356
00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:55,519
it well as the Orthodox person. He can't do that.

357
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:05,119
We're about to you can't do that that. I'm executed

358
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,240
from the critique of applying to you. Fallacy.

359
00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, and let's talk.

360
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,079
Speaker 1: And by the way, I also said that individual fathers

361
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,880
can err and everybody believes that individual church fathers can

362
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,519
get things wrong. So Abara, if you remember that today,

363
00:28:23,519 --> 00:28:26,960
it was trying to say, well, then what if I

364
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,119
find a Western pope that's accepted by you as Orthodox

365
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,319
before the schism and he says something that has a

366
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,359
strong view of the papacy that proves the papacy. No,

367
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,559
it doesn't, because in our system it's perfectly applicable for

368
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,960
somebody to be wrong as an individual church father.

369
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 3: And by the way, your system says.

370
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,519
Speaker 2: That, so that the same kind of methodology that I

371
00:28:49,599 --> 00:28:52,480
find that Roman Catholics and Protestants are very similar in

372
00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:55,720
this way that this kind of quote mining. I'll just

373
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,400
find what I want and I'll throw that verse over

374
00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:03,319
that father, and and that proves my point. But we

375
00:29:03,359 --> 00:29:04,920
don't have an ecclesiology and.

376
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: Orthodoxy that's like that exactly.

377
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:08,599
Speaker 2: We have a consensus in.

378
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,079
Speaker 1: Reception, right. And that's also why I was trying to

379
00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:16,400
make an argument about paradigms and presubositions and data being

380
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,559
theory laden, and Ybarro never got that point because they

381
00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:22,480
don't think that way. Roman Catholics don't think about paradigms

382
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,559
and presubsitions. In fact, their whole system is pretty much

383
00:29:25,599 --> 00:29:28,920
adopting that classical foundationalist model. So they don't believe in

384
00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:32,119
thinking that way. So for them, it's just let me

385
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,960
show you a machine gun spam of twenty five Catholic

386
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,039
answers proof text for the papacy. There you go, it's

387
00:29:39,079 --> 00:29:42,799
like number one, you're still partly relying on forgeries. By

388
00:29:42,839 --> 00:29:45,519
the way, has Eric ever admitted that he was still

389
00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:48,279
relying on forgeries in our debate? No, he hasn't. Has

390
00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:52,279
he admitted that he's his initial essays that UBI showed

391
00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:56,799
were relying on forgeries. No, he hasn't. Has he admitted

392
00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:00,319
that he changed his position about the tone of Leo

393
00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:02,599
being ex Cathedra, He took down all of his old

394
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,640
posts saying that it was No, he hasn't made him

395
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:04,920
into that.

396
00:30:05,519 --> 00:30:07,079
Speaker 3: So there's this. This is constant sort of.

397
00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:10,519
Speaker 1: Game playing and dishonesty, and that's why they're having to

398
00:30:10,519 --> 00:30:15,759
resort to gotcha's and to purposefully ignore the nuances. Anyway,

399
00:30:15,799 --> 00:30:17,559
let's move on. If father dickon, if you have anything

400
00:30:17,559 --> 00:30:22,160
else to say about canon longfa Okay, welcome everybody, if

401
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,359
you would pleaseit like and share. Today we're gonna talking

402
00:30:24,359 --> 00:30:26,599
about theology the icon, as well as doing open Q

403
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,240
and A open Q and A is first you got me,

404
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,799
got father deacon here? Does anybody have any topics that

405
00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:34,480
they want to discuss. By the way, we got two

406
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,039
big fat super chats from a couple of days ago.

407
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,759
Thanks sent one hundred dollars, Thank you, thanks, thanks, thanks,

408
00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:45,200
and then thank you. Jay sent another one hundred dollars

409
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,519
and says thumbs up, mate, I'm glad to see that

410
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,000
your star is rising.

411
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 3: Uh oh, that's a cultic.

412
00:30:51,039 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: We'll let the We'll let the illuminate confirm exposers take

413
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,759
that comment and clip it and say that I'm illuminate

414
00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:02,319
confirmative highly edified astrology. Dude, you're doing astrology, highly edifying

415
00:31:02,319 --> 00:31:06,279
in the deep end of truth. All the best, my friend. Well,

416
00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:09,519
thank you so much for that. Thank you, thank you,

417
00:31:09,559 --> 00:31:15,200
thank you. There's anybody in the discord have any topics

418
00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:31,279
or issues or discussion that they want to get into?

419
00:31:31,519 --> 00:31:33,079
You got We got a room full of people, does

420
00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:35,279
anybody have we had somebody earlier said I want to talk.

421
00:31:35,359 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 3: I want to ask you a quite about Islam. Are

422
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:37,359
you still here?

423
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:46,559
Speaker 1: Dogs kept crewing here? Yeah, I'm here.

424
00:31:47,319 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 6: I got my question.

425
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:49,359
Speaker 1: You forgot your question?

426
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 6: Must that I got my question?

427
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:55,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

428
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,039
Speaker 6: I was talking to a friend of mine who's a Muslim,

429
00:31:57,119 --> 00:32:00,599
and he brought up, I don't I'm not my Bible.

430
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,440
I think it might be Matthew twenty four if.

431
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,359
Speaker 7: I recall correctly, it's he's something about the end in

432
00:32:07,559 --> 00:32:10,559
days no one knows they, or the or the hour.

433
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 6: And then he says only the Father knows, not even

434
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:14,640
the angels.

435
00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 7: And then there's something that I didn't know that I

436
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:24,720
looked in my OSB and it said that some translations.

437
00:32:25,039 --> 00:32:27,519
This is what he was saying, say, not even the

438
00:32:27,559 --> 00:32:31,240
Son knows. No one knows except for the Father, not

439
00:32:31,319 --> 00:32:34,279
even the angels or the Son. And that kind of

440
00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:35,559
sued me for a loop a little bit.

441
00:32:35,799 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: I hadn't heard that, right. This is an ancient aryan argument.

442
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,720
It's been around for forever. Basil covers this in letter

443
00:32:42,839 --> 00:32:48,000
to thirty five. Let me make sure this is the right.

444
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:59,119
Maybe it's two thirty six. Uh, there's a I know

445
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,039
what it is. There's a a good essay at the

446
00:33:01,039 --> 00:33:02,759
Preacher's Institute.

447
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: On this.

448
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put it on typing it because I want

449
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:22,599
to put it in the chat for the It's not

450
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,960
saying that that Christ lacked knowledge, because Christ is a

451
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:32,359
divine subject, divine person, so he's not lacking knowledge, but

452
00:33:32,759 --> 00:33:36,640
he can speak by appropriation is the word that Saint

453
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:37,839
John Damascus will use.

454
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: Hold on a second.

455
00:33:42,079 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, I was trying to tell him about Christ doing

456
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,319
and saying things proper to is.

457
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 6: Human nature, and I was.

458
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: I was really trying.

459
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: But it's like the well, they're only interested in they're

460
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,000
only interested in certain texts, right, So they're not gonna

461
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:11,920
look at all the texts, right, I got to fund

462
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,480
the exact title.

463
00:34:16,039 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 7: They don't wanna like even to understand the concept of

464
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,280
like a distinction between nature and person or how a person.

465
00:34:26,519 --> 00:34:30,800
We can show it happening to two natures and acting

466
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,119
and speaking proper to one of the natures.

467
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,519
Speaker 6: It's it's like a brick wall, dude.

468
00:34:39,559 --> 00:34:41,679
Speaker 1: Right. So it's similar to like when we call Christ

469
00:34:43,079 --> 00:34:46,079
a curse and like Protestants like, oh, that means he

470
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,079
like literally became cursed and the father hated him. It's

471
00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:53,239
as if he were cursed, right, he is treated as

472
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,079
one cursed, does not mean that he is literally cursed.

473
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:03,760
Or if you read it's if you read John Damascus

474
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,480
book three, it's the sections twenty eight thirty. I think

475
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,280
it's the last three chapters in book three where he

476
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,079
describes appropriation. And so it's the son saying it's as if, right,

477
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,320
Like it's it's an as if statement, right, or a

478
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,840
for our sake statement. It's a what's the word I'm

479
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:28,000
looking for? It's like an exaggeration where I say, like, like,

480
00:35:28,079 --> 00:35:31,039
no man even knows, not even any man knows this, right,

481
00:35:31,679 --> 00:35:32,440
not even the center.

482
00:35:33,199 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, Hyperbolerea, That's what I'm looking for, right, Yeah.

483
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 6: He does that a lot like Coldman's father.

484
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,519
Speaker 1: Well, cut your hand off. It makes you sin. I mean,

485
00:35:43,199 --> 00:35:48,639
come on, that's well. They won't allow nuance when we

486
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,239
interpret things, but when it comes to the Koran. Oh,

487
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,280
you better give me nuance with all these problems in

488
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:53,679
the Koran.

489
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,559
Speaker 2: Right, but you enjoy that tweet. I forget to be

490
00:35:58,559 --> 00:36:01,920
sent it out since says call them and father is

491
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,239
the same Father Abraham and Sunday School.

492
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:12,079
Speaker 1: Yeah right, Uh, let me it's I know it's. Basil

493
00:36:12,119 --> 00:36:14,360
has a whole letter on this. It's right here. Maybe

494
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,079
it's thirty nine after thirty eight on nature in person.

495
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,599
Bezel is a really good letter on this. But I'm

496
00:36:19,639 --> 00:36:24,760
just trying to find it. No, that's about war. It's

497
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:42,280
not that two thirty six. Let me grab my copy

498
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,000
of it because I know where it's marked in there.

499
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 2: H dons with Muslims.

500
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 6: It's like it feels like talking to a little kid,

501
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:20,559
like you have to slow down mm hmmm, like talk loud,

502
00:37:28,079 --> 00:37:29,199
like an elderly.

503
00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 2: Said, I want you to make distinctious M page pages prayer.

504
00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: I got my Basil help. So I'm just trying to

505
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,639
find the letter I'm thinking of. It's right after that

506
00:38:06,639 --> 00:38:09,000
where he talks about two thirty letters to thirty four.

507
00:38:09,039 --> 00:38:12,840
I think, here we go, Yeah, here it is. It's

508
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,639
two thirty six. So here's Basil's letter two thirty six

509
00:38:16,679 --> 00:38:20,920
on the ignorance of the son's Yeah, here it is,

510
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,719
and I'm gonna put it in the chat for everybody.

511
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,559
So and the Preacher's Institute article just site it just

512
00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:35,559
restates Basil and letter two thirty six. So so, he says,

513
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,960
because the Arians were always using this as one of

514
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,840
their key arguments, no man seems to be a general

515
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,039
expression that not a single person is accepted by it.

516
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,480
But this is not its use in scripture, as I observed,

517
00:38:49,519 --> 00:38:52,559
in many passages, there's none good but God, right, Jesus

518
00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:54,679
says that does that mean that Jesus isn't good, only

519
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,360
God the Father. For even in this past is the

520
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,679
Son does not speak to the exclusion of himself being good,

521
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,199
because in other places he calls himself good.

522
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 3: Since the Father is the first.

523
00:39:05,159 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: Good, we believe the words no man have been uttered

524
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:12,079
with understanding the addition of the first. So with this passage,

525
00:39:12,119 --> 00:39:15,119
no man knows the son, but the can. Somebody stops,

526
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:24,280
that's really loud scraping. No man knows of the Father,

527
00:39:24,599 --> 00:39:26,840
the Son, but the Father Matthew eleven, twenty seven. So

528
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,679
there is the charge of ignorance against the Spirit, but

529
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,639
only so. In other words, if we say no one

530
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,679
knows the Son but the Father, does that mean that

531
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,960
the Holy Spirit doesn't know the Father.

532
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 3: So these are as Father Deacon said, hyperbole.

533
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,039
Speaker 1: Even here there is not a statement of the ignorance

534
00:39:42,039 --> 00:39:44,559
of the Holy Spirit, but a testament to the knowledge

535
00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:47,559
of his own nature that naturally belongs to the Father first.

536
00:39:48,079 --> 00:39:50,599
Thus we also understand in Matthew twenty four to thirty

537
00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:53,280
six that no man knows to refer to the Father

538
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,679
as the first knowledge of things, both present and to

539
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,960
be generally, and to exhibit to men as the first cause.

540
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 3: So in other words, it's just like.

541
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: When Jesus is saying, no man is good but the Father, right,

542
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,400
No man's good but God right. It's not to the

543
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,519
exclusion of himself, but it's to give the deference to

544
00:40:11,559 --> 00:40:15,280
the Father as the soul caused arka and principle. Right,

545
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:16,199
does that make sense?

546
00:40:19,039 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 6: Doesn't make sense.

547
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 7: It's one of those things where kind of gauge some

548
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,119
of the Muslims and then.

549
00:40:26,039 --> 00:40:29,159
Speaker 6: You're like, are they gonna be able to even process.

550
00:40:29,199 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: It's just kind of Slacksand I mean, well, unfortunately no,

551
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:39,199
because they again are not big fans of nuance. So

552
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,719
and I'm not meaning to be mean, but I mean

553
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:48,920
we've had many interactions with Muslims and they're not that

554
00:40:49,039 --> 00:40:53,000
interested in nuance. And a lot of the apologetic from

555
00:40:53,079 --> 00:40:55,599
Islam is just based on these kind of like word

556
00:40:55,639 --> 00:41:03,440
concept fallacies, very you know, blistic either or fallacies, et cetera.

557
00:41:08,199 --> 00:41:10,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think you said to thirty six.

558
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I put it in the link in for the

559
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:23,519
people in the discord, and that's also Yeah, just let

560
00:41:23,559 --> 00:41:27,800
at two thirty six. It's a good, good letter. I

561
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,840
wish I could find that uh essay at Preacher's Institute

562
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:36,199
that talks about it. It's really good. Here it is,

563
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,000
it is, I found it. I will put this also

564
00:41:39,119 --> 00:41:49,280
in the chat for everybody who's this buy father somebody,

565
00:41:50,119 --> 00:41:54,480
Oh you didn't say it, doesn't say he wrote it.

566
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,880
It's just it just has a it just just posts

567
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:57,159
it here.

568
00:41:57,199 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 2: I don't know we're going to follow somebody's on Sunday.

569
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,119
Speaker 1: I will share this in the VC general in the discord,

570
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,199
So give me just a minute, I'll share it there.

571
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:14,199
But yeah, that's the The point is that it's linguistic.

572
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:20,360
And he cites a letter to thirty six of Bagel

573
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,000
and he points out there's none good but God. No

574
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,280
man knows the son of the Father, et cetera. My

575
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:28,159
father only.

576
00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 2: Right?

577
00:42:29,679 --> 00:42:33,599
Speaker 1: Does that mean when Jesus says my father only, that

578
00:42:33,639 --> 00:42:36,800
it excludes the Holy spirit? All these those are reduct

579
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,239
yos right? So if that was the case, all these

580
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,679
statements would also be interpreted in that way and would

581
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:46,880
reduce to absurdity, which are all really good arguments, right anyway,

582
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,800
So there's that, and there's the two sources that are

583
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,480
good on that. By the way, you can follow father

584
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,599
Deacon there. He's in the chat if you missed it,

585
00:42:57,639 --> 00:42:59,599
there's this letter two thirty six of Basil, and then

586
00:42:59,639 --> 00:43:02,559
this article at Preachers Institute is really good on that.

587
00:43:03,599 --> 00:43:06,519
All right, Nevin says, for five dollars, what is the

588
00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:12,519
difference between natural law insert Mark Pasio's voice, natural law

589
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:19,280
and the Kybalion hermetic principles? How does one differ or

590
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,639
relate to what Jesus taught?

591
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 3: The easiest way I can.

592
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,039
Speaker 1: Answer this is to say that for any system, whether

593
00:43:27,079 --> 00:43:31,000
it's Mark Pasio and his kind of esoteric alchemical natural law,

594
00:43:31,159 --> 00:43:35,840
or whether it's Enlightenment philosophers, or whether it's Tomass Thomas

595
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,039
Aquinas and natural law. The easiest way I could classify

596
00:43:40,039 --> 00:43:42,480
the difference is that for all those guys, this really

597
00:43:42,519 --> 00:43:45,880
has nothing to do with the Second person of the Godhead.

598
00:43:46,599 --> 00:43:50,840
There's no direct connection between the laws of nature per se,

599
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,800
what those laws are, and the Logos aka the second

600
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,960
person of the Trinity and his imminent presence in the world.

601
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:05,039
For the Orthodox, the laws of nature are logie right,

602
00:44:05,079 --> 00:44:09,199
They're the principles that God is established ultimately right. I mean,

603
00:44:09,199 --> 00:44:12,159
it's principles and laws for the created order. But they're

604
00:44:12,199 --> 00:44:18,320
patterned on the ordering of the Logos himself. Okay. So

605
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,280
that's the big difference is that nobody from those schools

606
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,280
of the Enlightenment, or even the Thomists would say that

607
00:44:26,599 --> 00:44:32,559
nature in its laws has any direct relationship to Jesus

608
00:44:32,599 --> 00:44:36,599
per se. I think that down the road, yeah, a

609
00:44:36,679 --> 00:44:40,079
Thomas or Aroma Colly would say, well, maybe down the road, yes,

610
00:44:40,119 --> 00:44:42,199
I can kind of link this to Jesus and the Trinity.

611
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,239
But when we're doing natural law, we're just we're just

612
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:50,960
doing autonomous reasoning. We're saying there's no autonomous reasoning. It's

613
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,480
not possible. You can't do autonomous reasoning in a coherent way.

614
00:44:54,559 --> 00:44:58,320
You can do it physically, right, noetically you can do it,

615
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:00,679
but whether you can give an a count for it and

616
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,039
justify is a different thing. And that's what we're saying

617
00:45:03,039 --> 00:45:05,719
you can't do. And that's why Justin Popovitch, Saint Justin

618
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,920
Popovich wrote a whole essay saying that.

619
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:10,199
Speaker 3: We don't believe in natural law.

620
00:45:11,159 --> 00:45:16,079
Speaker 1: And he's talking about in the sense of Tomism Western philosophy,

621
00:45:16,199 --> 00:45:21,159
and how the Western ethos of natural law that's the

622
00:45:21,159 --> 00:45:26,079
wrong book. The Western ethos of natural law leads to atheism,

623
00:45:26,519 --> 00:45:30,880
it leads to deism. That's one father, deacon, would you

624
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,840
comment on what would you say to somebody who said,

625
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,719
what's wrong with just going by natural law according to

626
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,039
you know, like Enlightenment philosophers or something.

627
00:45:42,119 --> 00:45:46,639
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you see a series of departures. And again

628
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,280
this is kind of word concept fallacy. Just because we're

629
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,360
using the same word doesn't mean that throughout the kind

630
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,360
of various ages and philosophies that means the same sort

631
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:01,440
of thing. The departure from orthodoxy, remember, is always personalized,

632
00:46:02,679 --> 00:46:08,400
and so there isn't this, Oh, there's the transcendent God

633
00:46:08,559 --> 00:46:11,599
out there and even the Holy Trinity and stuff like that,

634
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,599
and then there's God's created order. And then we just

635
00:46:16,679 --> 00:46:21,800
from our own minds and this created order reason up

636
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,920
and find kind of God's thumb print. That's kind of

637
00:46:26,039 --> 00:46:29,360
the way it is, right. It's like the the the

638
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,920
after effect of God left is almost kind of what

639
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,679
I would say is scholastic kind of notion that reflects

640
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:43,559
but that's not personalized, that God is actually both transcendent

641
00:46:43,559 --> 00:46:47,880
and imminent within creation. And so the way that that's

642
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,199
why we don't have natural theology, the way that the

643
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:58,840
Roman Catholics in the Westwood we have natural revelation and

644
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,480
supernatural level and they're not they're all understood, as you

645
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:04,440
rightly pointed out, was really well that you said it

646
00:47:04,519 --> 00:47:09,599
that way, personalized understood in terms of specifically the second

647
00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:16,159
person of the Holy Unity. Now, after you get after

648
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:24,599
the kind of Tomistics and the Scholasticism the Enlightenment, because

649
00:47:24,639 --> 00:47:27,880
the modernity that mechanizes nature, so at least with the

650
00:47:29,119 --> 00:47:33,079
with the Thomas and Scholastics, their natural law was things

651
00:47:33,079 --> 00:47:37,199
have natures and essences in the material world, and that

652
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,719
obviously comes from God, is grounded in God, so there

653
00:47:40,119 --> 00:47:44,000
is some sort of connection there. But once the the

654
00:47:44,039 --> 00:47:49,199
modern philosophers mechanized nature and abolished essences and forms in nature,

655
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,119
they just keep natural law by name. In fact, what

656
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:59,480
you'll start to see in the Enlightenment thinkers is natural

657
00:47:59,599 --> 00:48:05,599
law is the law of reason. Because nature, there's nothing

658
00:48:05,639 --> 00:48:08,239
to be found in nature. It's just a machine. Right,

659
00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:13,679
So rather than look into nature, you look to everything's

660
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:21,400
anthro centric, percentric concerns now, and man's elevated higher than

661
00:48:22,039 --> 00:48:26,079
all of nature, not within nature, and really almost higher

662
00:48:26,119 --> 00:48:31,119
than God. So man's law of reason becomes natural law.

663
00:48:31,559 --> 00:48:37,599
You find this in all the like Rousseau, Caant Hobbes,

664
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,320
they all talk about this, the natural law, the law

665
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,480
of reason. Right, what's the law of reason? Well, whatever

666
00:48:44,559 --> 00:48:48,920
I say it is right, it's always and then eventually

667
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:53,239
that's just kind of abolished altogether, just right. But you know,

668
00:48:53,280 --> 00:49:00,239
even the Founding fathers talk about like natural law, their

669
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:05,119
Enlightenment natural law think and there's nothing ian actually nature.

670
00:49:05,519 --> 00:49:11,800
It has to do with kind of lawlike structures within

671
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,519
the mind that are supposed to be universally applicable to all.

672
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,840
But again once you give to get the critics of

673
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,599
the Enlightenment, and that just falls apart as well. So yeah,

674
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,559
really has nothing to do with the kind of words,

675
00:49:26,559 --> 00:49:29,920
the box concept of all. But anyways, I hope I.

676
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: Didn't None was a great answer. Yeah, we got more

677
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,400
super chests. But does anybody in the discord have a

678
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:41,719
question open for him?

679
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 2: It?

680
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:46,199
Speaker 1: Say?

681
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 2: What can you and me?

682
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 8: I've been thinking about the fate of the Byzantine Empire

683
00:49:55,119 --> 00:50:00,280
and Middle Eastern Christendom. Lately, Eastern Orthodoxy and other Christian

684
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,360
denominations been in the decline from the advances of the

685
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:09,760
Arab Caliphate and Ottomans to the high rates of help, migration, persecution,

686
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,559
and low birth rates among Middle East and Christians. Today,

687
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,280
Christianity and Orthodoxy are favored by God.

688
00:50:17,639 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 2: Why has this happened?

689
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,280
Speaker 1: Well, if you read Apocalypse two and three, Jesus says

690
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:30,440
that you will be persecuted and if you are faithful

691
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,679
to me, I will bless you.

692
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 3: But if you're not.

693
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: Faithful, I will bring chastisement. So we don't always know

694
00:50:37,079 --> 00:50:40,280
the reasons as to why this or that church perishes

695
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:44,199
or doesn't exist anymore, but Jesus does warn that actual

696
00:50:44,559 --> 00:50:47,480
historical churches will have their lamp stands removed. And in fact,

697
00:50:47,519 --> 00:50:49,480
if you look at the seven Churches of Asia Minor

698
00:50:49,519 --> 00:50:52,639
and Apocalypse two and three, some of those don't exist anymore.

699
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,320
They're not around. They've had their lamp stand removed. Now,

700
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,159
I'm not going to sit here and try to look

701
00:50:57,199 --> 00:50:58,960
back in history and say, ah, this was the point

702
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,599
where they were judged, and Jesus removed their lamp stand

703
00:51:01,639 --> 00:51:04,360
at this point and you know one fifty eighty I

704
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,000
don't know that. But we have the principle laid down

705
00:51:07,039 --> 00:51:10,239
in Apocalypse two and three that covenant blessings and Covenant

706
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,760
cursings do continue on in terms of the life of

707
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,000
the church. And by the way, Jesus said you would

708
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:19,519
be persecuted. So persecution and the numbers is not what

709
00:51:19,639 --> 00:51:22,599
determines orthodoxy. In fact, in one point the Roman Empire,

710
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,159
the majority of the empire was heterodox, So it's not

711
00:51:26,199 --> 00:51:30,559
a matter of Catholicity is not primarily concerned with numbers.

712
00:51:33,679 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 8: I have another question, if you don't mind, sure you

713
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:41,480
think of the prophecies of Saint Pasius related to the

714
00:51:41,519 --> 00:51:46,079
future war between Russia and Turkey see the prophecy as

715
00:51:46,119 --> 00:51:48,559
inspired by God, and do you see any hint of

716
00:51:48,639 --> 00:51:49,559
it beings fulfilled.

717
00:51:51,519 --> 00:51:55,039
Speaker 1: I would not say that any individual saint has the

718
00:51:55,079 --> 00:51:58,400
ability to prophesy with the authority of God per se.

719
00:51:58,559 --> 00:52:01,239
I think that the Holy Spirit can of saints clairvoyance

720
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,960
and they can understand events ahead of time, but that

721
00:52:04,079 --> 00:52:07,079
is not the same as divine revelation. And also I

722
00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:09,760
don't know to what degree all of the difference so

723
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:14,000
called claims of Saint Pezios are his, So I'm not

724
00:52:14,039 --> 00:52:15,960
saying that. I'm not saying whether.

725
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 2: He was actually intending to speak himself prophetically about they

726
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,599
could be easily take him out of context. And again, uh,

727
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:33,079
Stack and I were talking about this the prophecy, isn't

728
00:52:33,079 --> 00:52:36,880
it so much intended to predict the future, is to

729
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:42,159
kind of confirm and be understood once it's happening as

730
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:42,760
kind of.

731
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's entirely possible that he

732
00:52:47,559 --> 00:52:50,000
predicted things about a coming war. I don't have any

733
00:52:50,039 --> 00:52:53,000
any I'm not saying that it isn't true. I've talked

734
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,000
to people that I respect to believe that all of

735
00:52:56,039 --> 00:52:57,880
those statements are true. I've talked to people that I

736
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,639
respect that say that some people have claim that there's

737
00:53:00,639 --> 00:53:03,679
prophecies of his that are not actually his, so I

738
00:53:03,679 --> 00:53:05,519
don't have any view on that. But I actually I

739
00:53:05,559 --> 00:53:08,559
actually shared months ago his statement on the statutes from

740
00:53:08,599 --> 00:53:11,840
his book from many years ago, so that one is

741
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:13,400
definitely valid.

742
00:53:13,559 --> 00:53:16,519
Speaker 2: Do you remember Father Star from Rose's lecture about the

743
00:53:16,599 --> 00:53:19,760
end times? And you had a really good point about

744
00:53:20,519 --> 00:53:24,920
you know, you're not to get too specific on the details.

745
00:53:25,039 --> 00:53:28,880
No man knows the hour, the day or hour, but

746
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,880
we're to have nepts, we're to be watchful. Yeah, so

747
00:53:34,079 --> 00:53:36,559
I think it's good to listen to these things. They're

748
00:53:36,599 --> 00:53:40,760
not dogmatic. Again, we don't exactly know, but there are

749
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,719
signs of the times coming, and I think it's good

750
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,079
to be on guard and watchful. So you could use

751
00:53:48,119 --> 00:53:50,360
those and be like, maybe that's true, maybe I should

752
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,920
be careful about I think that's probably a healthy approach.

753
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean there were Greek peasant people who thought

754
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,039
that barcodes on products were the mark of the beast

755
00:54:01,199 --> 00:54:03,840
and time, and that's just you don't want to get

756
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:08,519
caught up in over obsessing on that stuff. But obviously, yeah,

757
00:54:08,519 --> 00:54:11,639
there will be some form of a you know, tracking,

758
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,280
controlling thing. Whether this is it, I don't know. But

759
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:14,840
there will be.

760
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:21,199
Speaker 2: We don't want to become Alvin. These those are the

761
00:54:21,199 --> 00:54:22,320
only questions I had.

762
00:54:23,599 --> 00:54:26,639
Speaker 1: Great questions, Yeah, great questions anybody else it's open.

763
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 2: Formay just quickly campaign enough questions. Sure, just on the

764
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:34,840
question of holy tradition.

765
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 9: And I know this is going to sound pretty typical

766
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:38,159
coming from a person.

767
00:54:39,559 --> 00:54:41,679
Speaker 2: How can we justify say, some of.

768
00:54:41,599 --> 00:54:45,199
Speaker 9: The more some of the more minort tangents on holy tradition,

769
00:54:45,559 --> 00:54:48,199
such as the specifics which I can't really find any.

770
00:54:48,199 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 2: Historical justifications for, like what so for example, And this

771
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,039
again is going to come from a proper viewpoint.

772
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 9: The dual mission of the say tokos for example, and

773
00:55:03,119 --> 00:55:08,440
just to name a specific can be that one specifically?

774
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,239
Just a general question on the validity of all evasion.

775
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,280
Speaker 1: Right, So we would say that all of the truths

776
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:21,719
of dogma are handed down from the apostles to their successors,

777
00:55:22,519 --> 00:55:25,760
and it's easy to demonstrate that not all of that

778
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:29,239
is purely written. In fact, the church itself is who

779
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:34,239
determine the canterscripture. That's easily verified, right, And there are

780
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,960
many things in fact that are not in the written

781
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,639
deposit that were believed from the earliest times. But the

782
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:45,360
fact that we don't have a specific reference to something

783
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,039
in the first century does not necessarily mean that it

784
00:55:49,159 --> 00:55:52,639
was not believed. That's an argument from silence. So in

785
00:55:52,639 --> 00:55:54,840
other words, I would say to you, on what basis

786
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,199
do you know that there must be a specific reference

787
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,960
to each type of thing that's believed to make it

788
00:56:02,079 --> 00:56:04,199
part of the depositive faith? How do you know that

789
00:56:04,199 --> 00:56:07,480
that's the case. And by the way, whatever you answer,

790
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:09,280
you're not going to be able to be consistent with

791
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,199
it because you don't even believe that, because you don't

792
00:56:11,199 --> 00:56:13,760
have a canon of scripture in the second, third, or

793
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,559
fourth century that's consistent and coherent and believed.

794
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:25,280
Speaker 9: Okay, yeah, interesting answer. I would just go on to

795
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:30,119
say a lot of the interpretations again also come from tradition.

796
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:35,079
So for example, the between the Old Testament and New Testament,

797
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:37,960
which again some of them might see, some of them,

798
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:38,360
I think.

799
00:56:38,199 --> 00:56:40,519
Speaker 2: We're a little bit of a longboated droll, so to speak.

800
00:56:42,639 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 1: Give an example, what you're talking about? You lost me there,

801
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,360
Old Testament, New Testament? What are you talking about?

802
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 9: All the archetypes between the Old Testament and the New

803
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,599
Testament kind of a mirror mirroring, for example, of some

804
00:56:53,639 --> 00:56:56,320
of the some of the stuff written in the laws

805
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,360
and the prophets, and some of the stuff which would

806
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,000
later come on.

807
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:02,679
Speaker 1: In terms of Mary or what are you talking about?

808
00:57:04,079 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 2: I'm just talking about in general?

809
00:57:08,079 --> 00:57:10,320
Speaker 3: What what? What is a what is a stretch?

810
00:57:11,079 --> 00:57:13,199
Speaker 1: Are you coming from a position of saying that you

811
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:15,400
don't think there's continuity between the Old and New Testament?

812
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:16,679
Speaker 2: No?

813
00:57:16,679 --> 00:57:18,679
Speaker 9: No, I think there's continuity between the Old and the

814
00:57:18,679 --> 00:57:21,480
New Testament. But for example, some of the more some

815
00:57:21,519 --> 00:57:24,079
of the more weed interpretations that had come out, such

816
00:57:24,119 --> 00:57:30,239
as that between Adam and He's sleep, comparing that between

817
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:36,159
Christ and his resurrection, his resurrection and specific doctrines surrounding that.

818
00:57:36,159 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 2: That's just a specific example.

819
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 1: Oh so you're saying that sometimes typology is a stretch. Yeah,

820
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:46,679
I don't have a problem saying that sometimes the church

821
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:53,880
Fathers engage in typological interpretations that could be reaching. Sure, okay,

822
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,360
but that does not prove that typology is an invalid

823
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,480
hermeneutical approach. It's the apostles themselves that engage in typology,

824
00:58:02,519 --> 00:58:17,239
engage in typological harmneudics consistently. Hello, yep, yeah, I think.

825
00:58:17,159 --> 00:58:18,119
Speaker 2: That just man answert it.

826
00:58:18,519 --> 00:58:21,679
Speaker 9: Sorry I framed it in a horrible way of trying

827
00:58:21,679 --> 00:58:22,679
from it that the next time.

828
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:28,199
Speaker 3: Okay, no problem.

829
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 2: By the way, I'd argue too, it's very easy to

830
00:58:35,039 --> 00:58:40,079
see when there's traditions that are innovated, because in the

831
00:58:40,199 --> 00:58:47,880
history there's always a response to innovations. Therefore, because the

832
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:52,800
principle is once received, we're kind of the same vincent

833
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:58,079
vincentian king and quote way quote semper quote, app'll be

834
00:58:58,199 --> 00:59:02,679
los create some st what has been believed everywhere, always

835
00:59:03,079 --> 00:59:08,480
by all. That's the kind of rule the candid that

836
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:13,280
because we believe these these traditions are handed down. When

837
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:20,239
we find something that hasn't been believed everywhere or always

838
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:30,000
or by all, it becomes immediate evidence, and we have

839
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,199
the fathers and the Church respond to them. So as

840
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,559
far as like the dour Mission, we have some pretty

841
00:59:37,719 --> 00:59:43,760
I have a great book. It's it's the Life of

842
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:49,320
the Virgin Mary, and it's the largest collection of all

843
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:54,639
the historical writings from scripture to uh, you know, fathers

844
00:59:54,719 --> 00:59:59,800
and traditions compiled about that and goes back pretty early

845
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:02,679
as far as the dorm Mission. But just again, as

846
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:06,639
Jad said, simply because let's say you found something written

847
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,000
the first time it was written was or recorded about

848
01:00:10,039 --> 01:00:12,639
something in the fourth century doesn't mean that it wasn't.

849
01:00:14,559 --> 01:00:17,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an argument from ever were prior to that.

850
01:00:17,199 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 10: That's like saying I'm not going to accept I'm not

851
01:00:19,079 --> 01:00:21,480
That's like saying that's like saying I'm not going to

852
01:00:21,559 --> 01:00:26,000
accept the canon of the scriptures unless I see the

853
01:00:26,039 --> 01:00:29,320
Protestant or the Orthodox canon listed specifically in.

854
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 1: The first and second centuries.

855
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:33,639
Speaker 3: Well, guess what. Nobody has that, So you're not going

856
01:00:33,719 --> 01:00:34,199
to find.

857
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,719
Speaker 2: It, Yes, but.

858
01:00:38,559 --> 01:00:40,599
Speaker 1: Sorry, go ahead.

859
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:45,559
Speaker 9: In the case the domation, the dominion, for example, the

860
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:48,000
I think the earliest example you can find of it

861
01:00:48,119 --> 01:00:50,960
is actually in a condemned work to proto Evangelic with James.

862
01:00:51,159 --> 01:00:54,239
Speaker 2: I think it was condemned twice once in another time.

863
01:00:56,639 --> 01:00:57,119
Speaker 3: Condemned.

864
01:00:57,119 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 1: Where what are you talking about?

865
01:00:59,719 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 2: From the text, not the belief of the text?

866
01:01:04,079 --> 01:01:08,079
Speaker 1: Hold on. So not being canonical does not mean it's condemned. Okay,

867
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:10,559
do you uch is not canonical?

868
01:01:10,559 --> 01:01:11,519
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean it's condemned.

869
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:20,679
Speaker 2: Points it means it's not it's not scripture. But it

870
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:24,679
doesn't mean it's false because then I mean, think about it,

871
01:01:24,679 --> 01:01:27,800
we'd actually you have to condemn all of history.

872
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 1: It's not because.

873
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:34,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's like we use history. That's how we

874
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:36,960
know and kind of verify things in the church. To you,

875
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:40,719
just when we when we say it's not in the canon,

876
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,639
we mean it's it's it's not the level of scripture,

877
01:01:43,679 --> 01:01:47,800
it's not about the same thing. It doesn't, but it

878
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:49,079
doesn't mean that it's false.

879
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:55,199
Speaker 1: And again again so let's let's but let's remember the

880
01:01:55,239 --> 01:01:59,519
Protestants uh presupposition here, which is that the ultimate ground

881
01:01:59,519 --> 01:02:03,639
of authority for the believer that's infallible is the written

882
01:02:03,639 --> 01:02:07,519
textas scripture. And so but he's also got this standard

883
01:02:07,639 --> 01:02:10,599
that I'm only going to accept as something consistent with

884
01:02:10,639 --> 01:02:16,239
apostolic revelation that I find explicitly mentioned earlier than said century.

885
01:02:17,639 --> 01:02:21,440
But again, the very thing that you appeal to scripture

886
01:02:21,599 --> 01:02:25,920
does not have the correct canon listed prior to said century.

887
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:29,960
So your own, your own requirement under cutch, your own

888
01:02:30,079 --> 01:02:34,960
system starting point, that is, that's all that's needed to

889
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:36,760
show that that's not a good argument.

890
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:43,239
Speaker 9: Well fair, just getting back on the kind of evangelic

891
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,679
m of James, because again we seem to give that tengent.

892
01:02:46,119 --> 01:02:48,519
I've got the specific day Tea was condemned to buy

893
01:02:48,519 --> 01:02:52,480
Pope the text condemned by Pope Innocent Fantasy five x

894
01:02:52,519 --> 01:02:55,639
four and again by the Galician decree around five hundred,

895
01:02:55,719 --> 01:03:01,119
despite you know, of course being influential for this doctrine condemned.

896
01:03:02,559 --> 01:03:07,079
Speaker 2: We're asking that question. It's was not received, is canonical,

897
01:03:07,239 --> 01:03:08,679
but yet.

898
01:03:08,119 --> 01:03:11,719
Speaker 1: Rejected rejected from the canon.

899
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:14,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, condemned and rejected from the canon.

900
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 1: Those decrees that you're talking about are when the West

901
01:03:18,559 --> 01:03:21,800
was trying to determine the canon. That's what you're talking about.

902
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:27,199
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that it's false. It means it's not

903
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:28,199
hard of scripture.

904
01:03:29,519 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 1: That's what it's the book of in the Book of

905
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:36,760
United The Book of Unit contains true tradition.

906
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 3: It is not canon.

907
01:03:38,079 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: It's cited by Jude.

908
01:03:43,199 --> 01:03:45,079
Speaker 9: Well, yes, But to get on your point, poll so

909
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:47,039
sites of criton poets at one.

910
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 1: Point, I believable that my point, because Paul has no

911
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:55,599
problem finding truth outside of the canon of scripture exactly.

912
01:03:57,159 --> 01:03:59,519
And just because Paul cites a pagan poet doesn't mean

913
01:03:59,559 --> 01:04:03,320
that everything and it's extra canonical is of the same status.

914
01:04:05,199 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 2: No.

915
01:04:05,519 --> 01:04:07,599
Speaker 9: But of course, how do we know to take what's

916
01:04:07,679 --> 01:04:10,559
legitimate out of the extra canonical books and.

917
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:14,719
Speaker 1: What is Because Christ established a historic normative body of

918
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:17,440
authoritative rulers in the church, the bishops.

919
01:04:21,119 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 2: And I actually argue that books can't be authoritative. So God,

920
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:37,960
on the Protestant model, God gives you the book is

921
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:44,039
the ultimate book for authority implies a body. Right, the

922
01:04:44,039 --> 01:04:47,039
book can be only authoritative in as much as there's

923
01:04:47,119 --> 01:04:48,519
a normative body.

924
01:04:49,239 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 1: The books the book, who.

925
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:57,719
Speaker 2: Enforces the book and also who settles to suits and

926
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:05,800
miss it when you have disputing interpretations. We could talk

927
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:10,320
about the constitution of a country being more authoritative only

928
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:13,559
in so far as there is a body that's a

929
01:05:13,719 --> 01:05:19,000
normative authority that's able to settle disputes on a constitution.

930
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,360
So doesn't even make sense, even on a Protestant model,

931
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:26,800
to say the book is the highest Books are not authorities.

932
01:05:27,519 --> 01:05:30,920
You need a living body of people that are given

933
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:36,639
a normative power that can actually bind it and tell

934
01:05:36,719 --> 01:05:40,719
you that their interpretation of that book would actually be binding.

935
01:05:41,079 --> 01:05:44,280
So it doesn't even make sense.

936
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:47,199
Speaker 1: And Lewis just did a video where he outlines the

937
01:05:47,239 --> 01:05:50,199
authority that the church has in terms of worship. Right,

938
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:54,840
So Protestants right lacking any kind of coherent way to

939
01:05:55,039 --> 01:05:57,400
know the proper way to worship God.

940
01:05:58,079 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 3: If you look at the video on orthodox Htah.

941
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 1: It also shows how the Church has the ability to

942
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:07,800
bind and to make decisions about worship. And so that's

943
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:11,000
why we weren't left where they do it yourself approach

944
01:06:11,079 --> 01:06:13,800
to how we worship God. We were actually given a

945
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:18,199
pattern of sound doctrine, a pattern of liturgical worship in

946
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:21,400
the church. Lewis's video is excellent. I highly recommend if

947
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:25,039
you've not seen his video Christian Worship and the Old Testament.

948
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:29,519
He proves that the patterns and principles of Old Testament

949
01:06:29,639 --> 01:06:33,159
temple and synagogue worship carry over into the Church such

950
01:06:33,199 --> 01:06:39,119
that the Church can create and celebrate her victories. Right. So,

951
01:06:39,239 --> 01:06:43,760
in other words, is it true that in the is

952
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:45,960
there a Sunday of Orthodoxy in the first century.

953
01:06:46,119 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 3: No, But that's because the Sunny Orthodoxy.

954
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:52,599
Speaker 1: Is celebrating a victory that happens centuries later in seven

955
01:06:52,639 --> 01:06:54,360
eighty seven, which we're going to be covering here in

956
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:57,400
a minute with this book. Right, And that's because the

957
01:06:57,480 --> 01:06:59,639
church has the authority, just like the synagogue had the

958
01:06:59,639 --> 01:07:04,760
authority and the power to institute services puim celebrating what

959
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:06,920
happens in the book of esther Hanukkah.

960
01:07:07,599 --> 01:07:09,239
Speaker 3: Right, why would the church have any.

961
01:07:09,119 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 1: Less power to institute her feasts and her solemn ceremonies

962
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:17,199
and liturgical celebrations. Well, she doesn't. She has all that

963
01:07:17,239 --> 01:07:20,559
power and authority because she has a succession just as

964
01:07:20,639 --> 01:07:23,400
much and more so than the Old Testament. Israel had

965
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:26,440
a succession and the Protestants don't have that succession.

966
01:07:27,679 --> 01:07:33,119
Speaker 2: Ja also add it's not like there's the authoritative body

967
01:07:33,199 --> 01:07:38,920
looking back under seven hundred years going, uh, well look

968
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:41,719
at this old, dusty text that we felt like it

969
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:45,920
isn't cannon, but we could use Remember as far as

970
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:50,440
the part of angels, James, those in the time were

971
01:07:50,519 --> 01:07:55,039
able to actually say that these things in that text

972
01:07:55,039 --> 01:08:00,280
are true because there was a living practice, tradition of

973
01:08:00,639 --> 01:08:03,440
these things about Mary.

974
01:08:02,559 --> 01:08:04,679
Speaker 6: I mean, we even know the standard.

975
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:07,960
Speaker 2: It's not just like we're looking back in the past

976
01:08:08,119 --> 01:08:12,599
as the question what books do I know are reliable

977
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,960
that are outside of scripture? You've got it backwards. It's

978
01:08:16,079 --> 01:08:19,359
those who were in the time that in many of

979
01:08:19,399 --> 01:08:21,880
the text there were additional texts too that are lost,

980
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:25,439
that they're actually able those followers in the times say

981
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:28,800
that we know that so and so said this, we

982
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:34,720
know that they did this, and they'll refer to those texts,

983
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:39,680
and they refer to the living practice traditions of those

984
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:43,800
believers who believe that everywhere, at all times, and and

985
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:47,560
so that's actually the criteria. It's in conjunction with that,

986
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:52,760
there's a continuity and consistency within history, within the practice,

987
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:56,079
within the beliefs, within the recorded text of those who

988
01:08:56,079 --> 01:08:59,800
at present time, in conjunction with the authority of the church.

989
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:09,800
Thanks all right, thanks, thanks, thank you.

990
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,520
Speaker 1: Somebody would in the VC General in the discord put

991
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:17,199
Lewis's link in there for him, for the Christian worksman

992
01:09:17,239 --> 01:09:24,159
the Old Testament, because it's it's a must see. Let's see,

993
01:09:24,199 --> 01:09:28,279
we had a couple of super chats herea let's see,

994
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:34,840
here's a good one. So, uh, Nevin for five dollars,

995
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:37,359
what is the difference between wrong guy Xander the great?

996
01:09:37,399 --> 01:09:40,880
Three dollars? Hey j and father Deacon, thank you for

997
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:41,359
your work.

998
01:09:42,039 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 3: How does God have.

999
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:48,199
Speaker 1: One mind and yet be three persons? So for Orthodox theology,

1000
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:52,399
in our metaphysic, you could say mind is a property

1001
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:56,319
or faculty or constituent component of nature, not a person.

1002
01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:58,560
This is confusing to a lot of people in the

1003
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:01,640
modern West or in the modern world. Because they think

1004
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:06,960
of mind or soul as person. Right, that's not our

1005
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:11,800
conception of this. In fact, even amongst human beings, we

1006
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:17,159
share a common principle or power or faculty of mind. Right.

1007
01:10:17,239 --> 01:10:19,359
So I know that sounds a little weird because you think, well,

1008
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:22,479
my mind's not your mind. Correct. That's where we get

1009
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:23,720
into the question of mode.

1010
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:24,239
Speaker 2: Right.

1011
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:28,720
Speaker 1: So mode is relevant for the trinity because because even

1012
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:31,159
though we're saying that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have

1013
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:35,800
the same principle of mind or faculty or attribute or

1014
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:39,199
power of mind, it doesn't mean they each have the

1015
01:10:39,279 --> 01:10:41,119
identical mind in the same way.

1016
01:10:41,239 --> 01:10:43,359
Speaker 3: So the Father uniquely.

1017
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 1: Instantiates or in hypostatizes mind in his own way, the

1018
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:55,159
Son uniquely instantiates or in hypostatizes mind in his own way, and.

1019
01:10:55,159 --> 01:10:56,720
Speaker 3: The Spirit does the same.

1020
01:10:57,239 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 1: Just like between you and I, we both have can

1021
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:04,600
considered in itself mind that's the same mind, mind as

1022
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:09,000
mind mind qua mind is the same. But mine mind

1023
01:11:09,039 --> 01:11:10,880
is not your mind. So how is it different? Because

1024
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:16,199
I uniquely instantiate mind as the mind of Jay in the.

1025
01:11:16,079 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 3: Mode of person.

1026
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:20,039
Speaker 1: This is why person and nature are so crucial to

1027
01:11:20,159 --> 01:11:23,119
orthodox Trinitarian theology, and that's why we will say, for example,

1028
01:11:23,159 --> 01:11:27,039
in the Trinity, the trinity has one nature, one mind,

1029
01:11:27,279 --> 01:11:33,840
one will, right, one essence. Human beings right considered as

1030
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:37,239
huge in terms of human nature itself. All human beings

1031
01:11:37,239 --> 01:11:41,840
possess one universal human nature of body, mind, soul, will.

1032
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:45,680
Does that mean that everybody has the identical body, mind, soul,

1033
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:48,560
and will in one sense? Yes, and that it's all

1034
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:51,239
one It's all one type of human nature that we

1035
01:11:51,279 --> 01:11:57,319
all can substantially share. Yet it's all so uniquely instantiated

1036
01:11:57,359 --> 01:12:01,239
and particularized or individuated on the basis of the person

1037
01:12:01,399 --> 01:12:04,479
that has that nature. I'm the person Jay, and I

1038
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:08,159
uniquely instantiate human nature in the way that I have it.

1039
01:12:09,079 --> 01:12:13,720
You're the person, Bob. You uniquely instantiate and have human

1040
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:14,439
nature in the.

1041
01:12:14,359 --> 01:12:15,319
Speaker 3: Way that you have it.

1042
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:19,039
Speaker 1: Right, according to the idiomata or the characteristics that make

1043
01:12:19,159 --> 01:12:23,199
up you. Right, this man is snubnosed, that man has

1044
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:26,600
long legs. This man is eight feet tall, right, this

1045
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:29,119
man is four feet tall. Right. Those are the idiomata

1046
01:12:29,239 --> 01:12:32,920
or particular characteristics that pick out that person. But the

1047
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:36,920
person is not the idiomatic or characteristics. The person is

1048
01:12:37,119 --> 01:12:42,439
the inner core or subject that has that nature. So

1049
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:46,079
that's how and why we say that the Trinity is

1050
01:12:46,119 --> 01:12:51,600
not three person excuse me, three minds, It's one possesses

1051
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:56,520
a single mind, uniquely instantiated in three hypostasies. And the

1052
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:59,880
analogy of the Cappadocians is to humans. Human nature is

1053
01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:04,159
uniquely instantiated in the mode of each individual hypostasis, Me,

1054
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:08,359
you whoever. So I know that might be a little confusing,

1055
01:13:08,399 --> 01:13:10,279
but hopefully that makes sense. That's why we don't say

1056
01:13:10,279 --> 01:13:13,239
God has three wills, because will is not a property

1057
01:13:13,399 --> 01:13:18,199
of person, It's a property or faculty of nature. This

1058
01:13:18,239 --> 01:13:20,479
is why Christ has two wills for us, because he

1059
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:23,960
possesses a human nature and a divine nature. But the

1060
01:13:24,399 --> 01:13:29,000
person that possesses those natures is the Logos, the second

1061
01:13:29,039 --> 01:13:33,800
person of the Godhead from all eternity, Father digging anything

1062
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:37,680
you want to add to that a p. So, this

1063
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:40,880
is why we have to understand person, nature, will, energy,

1064
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:45,000
and mode tropos right to have the right priadology and

1065
01:13:45,039 --> 01:13:48,039
the right christallity. That's why we always harp on this

1066
01:13:48,119 --> 01:13:51,359
in terms of orthodoxy. Me and Joe Hicks for ten dollars,

1067
01:13:51,359 --> 01:13:54,840
what is the difference in the way that we under

1068
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:58,159
excuse me, the understand the old Testament versus the New Testament.

1069
01:13:59,119 --> 01:14:00,720
Speaker 3: Is it related to the carnation and.

1070
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:06,439
Speaker 1: Thiosis, the incarnation and theosis and pentecost do play a

1071
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:10,920
key role in telling us the difference. Right, So in

1072
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:14,159
one sense there's continuity, Right. There's continuity in the sense that,

1073
01:14:14,239 --> 01:14:17,479
for example, we're not saved in a different way. Right,

1074
01:14:17,560 --> 01:14:20,239
it's not Some evangelicals, for example, they think, oh, in

1075
01:14:20,279 --> 01:14:23,359
the Old Testament, you're saved by works. Now you're saved

1076
01:14:23,399 --> 01:14:28,239
by purely gracious beneficence on the part of God. No,

1077
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:31,119
you could never be saved by works. Okay, Paul makes

1078
01:14:31,159 --> 01:14:35,199
this point about Abraham. Was Abraham saved by his human

1079
01:14:35,199 --> 01:14:38,760
efforts and work or his biology or his you know,

1080
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:43,439
racial lineas No, so salvation has never been by works.

1081
01:14:44,439 --> 01:14:47,399
Fact same Maximus even says that the Old Testament saints

1082
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:51,479
noetically perceived God via their news, so when they see

1083
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:53,600
the Theophanes, he says, that's that's a no.

1084
01:14:54,239 --> 01:14:54,920
Speaker 3: There's no other.

1085
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:57,600
Speaker 1: Way to have known and perceived and had a relationship

1086
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:01,600
with God than via the no eedic facult. So even

1087
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:07,039
in the Old Testament, the saints perceived God directly via

1088
01:15:07,119 --> 01:15:10,439
the noedic faculty, or even sometimes via their eyes Saint GARYA.

1089
01:15:10,479 --> 01:15:13,399
Palmer says that they even saw God in terms of theophanies,

1090
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:16,960
sometimes physically, and God can do that, right, there's nothing

1091
01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:19,239
that restricts God from being able to do that unless

1092
01:15:19,239 --> 01:15:22,439
you're Roman Catholic you believe that it's holograms manifesting or

1093
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:25,119
something like that. But for our theology, no, there's nothing

1094
01:15:25,159 --> 01:15:28,079
that restricts God from doing that. So I would say that.

1095
01:15:28,159 --> 01:15:30,680
But typically when people think about this, they're thinking about

1096
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:33,920
the ceremonial laws, right, And this is what Paul is

1097
01:15:34,039 --> 01:15:36,640
arguing in a lot of his especially Romans and Galatians

1098
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:39,119
right where he's trying to give an account for how

1099
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:41,840
Abraham is a great figure because we all know that

1100
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:44,920
Abraham was a friend of God and was righteous prior

1101
01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:48,479
to the giving of circumcision. So therefore circumcision, just like

1102
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:52,560
with Noah, right, can't be a requirement if God accepted

1103
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:58,039
Noah or Abraham before circumcision. You see, So circumcisions is

1104
01:15:58,079 --> 01:16:02,640
not inherent to being righteous with God, even though God

1105
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:04,960
did require it after he gave it, and it would

1106
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:07,159
have been a sin in the case of remember when

1107
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:12,640
Moses lacks about having his son circumcised and Zipper fusses

1108
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:16,199
at him and says, you're a father of blood to

1109
01:16:16,239 --> 01:16:18,119
me or whatever. He says, a man of blood or

1110
01:16:18,159 --> 01:16:20,119
something like that, and she's mad at him over that, right,

1111
01:16:20,159 --> 01:16:23,760
because he's being negligent. One of the instances where Moses sins,

1112
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:25,359
just like when he loses his temper and he throws

1113
01:16:25,399 --> 01:16:28,560
a tank commandments down. Right, he made some mistakes. The

1114
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:32,079
Saints make mistakes. They're not perfect anyway. Point being is

1115
01:16:32,079 --> 01:16:35,920
that so in the sense of how we're saved, In

1116
01:16:35,960 --> 01:16:39,560
the sense of what is being believed the Old Testament,

1117
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:42,760
Saints did not find salvation.

1118
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:44,079
Speaker 3: Through quote judaism.

1119
01:16:44,359 --> 01:16:48,960
Speaker 1: They did not find salvation through works or through generic theism.

1120
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:52,199
They believe according to the New Testament, in the Messiah

1121
01:16:52,239 --> 01:16:55,520
to Come, there's literally no other way to be saved

1122
01:16:55,560 --> 01:17:00,319
than through Christ. Abraham, Paul says, looked to the of

1123
01:17:00,319 --> 01:17:03,880
the Savior, looked ahead to Christ. Jesus says, Abraham looked

1124
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:05,960
for my day, and he saw it and was glad.

1125
01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:10,479
Right Hebrews twelve eleven and twelve. Right, the Gospel was

1126
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:14,920
preached beforehand to Abraham. Right, they believe the gospel in

1127
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:18,119
the Old Testament, or they didn't believe it, right, But

1128
01:17:18,279 --> 01:17:20,239
now it's different in the sense it for us right,

1129
01:17:20,279 --> 01:17:22,279
we live after the coming of them side and the

1130
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:25,960
key event that's usually forgotten. Everybody knows that prior to

1131
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:29,840
the death rone resurrection, but everybody forgets Pentecost. Pentecost is

1132
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:33,960
the empowering of the Church to go forth right with

1133
01:17:34,159 --> 01:17:37,239
that new degree of power that was not present in

1134
01:17:37,279 --> 01:17:40,520
the Old Testament. So does that mean that God wasn't

1135
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:42,399
present and on the present in the Old Testamer, that

1136
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:44,640
the Holy Spirit wasn't around in the Old Testament. No,

1137
01:17:45,319 --> 01:17:48,520
but it's a new way of being present in the church, right,

1138
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:50,880
it's a new mode of being in the Church that

1139
01:17:51,039 --> 01:17:55,520
was not prior present due to Now after the incarnation,

1140
01:17:56,119 --> 01:17:59,520
human nature has been sanctified, right, and that's why Jesus says,

1141
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:03,760
if I don't go away, the helper won't come. So

1142
01:18:04,079 --> 01:18:08,680
it's a matter of degree, emphasis and power that distinguishes

1143
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:12,960
the New Testament from the Old Testament. There's nothing inherently

1144
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:16,159
missing that they didn't have, right, Like, oh, they didn't

1145
01:18:16,159 --> 01:18:17,399
have the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament.

1146
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:18,479
Speaker 3: No, there's many tech.

1147
01:18:18,319 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 1: Passes that tell you that they had the Old Spirit

1148
01:18:20,039 --> 01:18:21,680
or they didn't have a theosis in the Old Testament.

1149
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:23,039
Speaker 3: Yes they did, and Maximus.

1150
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:25,319
Speaker 1: Says it, but they didn't have the degree and the

1151
01:18:25,399 --> 01:18:28,479
power and the focus that we have. And that's why

1152
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:32,239
even after the coming of Christ, right, is everything totally

1153
01:18:32,359 --> 01:18:36,840
quote spiritual? Now, no, right, you can still get physically

1154
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:40,640
sick as a punishment or a chastisement after the resurrection

1155
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:43,880
of Christ. Again, what does Jesus say in Apocalypse two

1156
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:46,159
and three to this about the seven Churches? He says,

1157
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,359
there's a false teacher at one of these churches, and

1158
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:52,000
I'm gonna throw her into a sick bed to give

1159
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:54,319
her a chance to repent. And if she doesn't repent,

1160
01:18:54,359 --> 01:18:56,359
that church is gonna lose the lamp stand or they'll

1161
01:18:56,359 --> 01:19:00,960
be destroyed. So there's even still in the New Testament,

1162
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:05,600
there's still physical chastisements, there's still physical blessings. I mean,

1163
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:07,399
who would be so absurd as to think that if

1164
01:19:07,439 --> 01:19:09,439
you're wealthy or if you have a gift in the

1165
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:12,720
New Testament, is that not from God or from God's providence.

1166
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:14,720
Speaker 3: Now, of course it does. That's why Saint John Chrystistom

1167
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:15,119
says that.

1168
01:19:15,079 --> 01:19:17,600
Speaker 1: You have a duty to help other people if you

1169
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:20,680
are wealthy, because God gave you the wealthy says to

1170
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:26,720
help others. So blessings, chastisements, cursings even still after the resurrection,

1171
01:19:27,279 --> 01:19:32,079
after Pentecosts do apply in the post right in the

1172
01:19:32,399 --> 01:19:35,119
times of the Gentiles in the Church era, you could say,

1173
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:38,039
but even still, we're all still one city and one

1174
01:19:38,079 --> 01:19:42,000
heavenly Jerusalem according to Hebrews eleven and twelve, Father Deacon,

1175
01:19:42,119 --> 01:19:43,000
Was there anything you would add?

1176
01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:49,039
Speaker 2: That's great? Yeah, question on that.

1177
01:19:49,439 --> 01:19:49,720
Speaker 1: Sure.

1178
01:19:50,079 --> 01:19:52,359
Speaker 2: Jada's toss says everything better than I do, so I'm

1179
01:19:52,399 --> 01:19:53,319
gonna let you talk to.

1180
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:55,479
Speaker 1: Go ahead.

1181
01:19:57,279 --> 01:20:00,560
Speaker 11: Oh so, in regards to iconography, you know said a

1182
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:03,560
lot of these that were perceived poetically. So would that

1183
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:06,399
be why it's the Old test iconography? I think in

1184
01:20:06,439 --> 01:20:09,520
the chronicles are focused element. They talked about this fiction

1185
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:12,000
of angels and share of Him and whatnot, that it's

1186
01:20:12,039 --> 01:20:14,600
all pictures of noetic beings.

1187
01:20:15,119 --> 01:20:19,239
Speaker 2: Is that kind of related to that in the iconography.

1188
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:24,119
Speaker 1: Well, I'm not saying that the Old Testament saints didn't see.

1189
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:27,680
Speaker 3: God directly, right, I'm not.

1190
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:30,840
Speaker 1: I wasn't talking about iconizic Yes, okay, so I wasn't

1191
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:33,279
talking about iconography per se in the Old Testament. But

1192
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:39,359
I mean, because angels could could manifest physically too. I

1193
01:20:39,399 --> 01:20:42,720
mean they can, they can manifest. That's why Hebrews says

1194
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:52,039
that you can entertain angels unaware, but I don't. I'm

1195
01:20:52,039 --> 01:20:54,279
not sure I would make a direct connection per se

1196
01:20:54,319 --> 01:20:59,000
between the fact that the Old Testament Temple has angels too,

1197
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:06,479
only perceiving noddic beings. I don't know about that. I mean,

1198
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:08,640
the Old Testament Temple had other things that are not

1199
01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:12,319
noedic in it, like it had it had Edenic imagery,

1200
01:21:12,359 --> 01:21:14,920
it had trees that had pomegranates. It's got all kinds

1201
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:19,600
of symbolism there. It's not all necessarily no eddic.

1202
01:21:23,479 --> 01:21:26,640
Speaker 2: Okay, that makes.

1203
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:31,039
Speaker 1: Those anybody else have any questions?

1204
01:21:35,159 --> 01:21:38,479
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I've got a quick question.

1205
01:21:39,159 --> 01:21:43,520
Speaker 12: So what exactly do you mean when you say that,

1206
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:47,159
like public vine revelation is closed?

1207
01:21:47,239 --> 01:21:50,560
Speaker 2: And how do we know that that was? The Harrison?

1208
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:57,640
Speaker 1: Sure, there's already an early Church heretics that claim to

1209
01:21:57,800 --> 01:22:02,640
continue uh public divine revel When John the Apostle died,

1210
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:07,640
there's no more public revelation, there's no more new revelations.

1211
01:22:08,199 --> 01:22:13,279
Anything that the Apostles taught in writing or orally was authoritative,

1212
01:22:13,439 --> 01:22:18,119
was normative, and was divine revelation, right. And when John died,

1213
01:22:18,199 --> 01:22:21,039
Saint John the Apostle, he's the last one. When he died,

1214
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:25,119
that's it. No more public revelation, because from that point

1215
01:22:25,159 --> 01:22:30,319
on it's the passing on of the deposit, the deposit

1216
01:22:30,399 --> 01:22:31,560
of the Apostolic faith.

1217
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:31,920
Speaker 2: Right.

1218
01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:36,199
Speaker 1: And so we even have in Zechariah the statement that

1219
01:22:36,239 --> 01:22:38,960
when the Messiah comes speaking of the Messianic age, if

1220
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:42,680
any man attempts to prophesy, they will stone him with

1221
01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:46,000
a stone because they will say, you speak wives, because

1222
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:47,279
there won't be public.

1223
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:48,399
Speaker 3: Revelation and prophecy anymore.

1224
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:51,159
Speaker 1: Jesus said the law and the prophets were until John

1225
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:55,720
the Baptist. No more prophetic office like the Old Testament prophets.

1226
01:22:56,399 --> 01:22:59,560
So in the New Testament, yes, there's the office of

1227
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:03,640
prophet or teacher when Pentecost comes and sends in the

1228
01:23:04,159 --> 01:23:06,800
church out and establishes the church, but that doesn't mean

1229
01:23:06,840 --> 01:23:08,520
there's new revelations. And in fact, at the end of

1230
01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:13,079
the Apocalypse there's a curse for adding new revelation. So

1231
01:23:13,560 --> 01:23:17,239
one way we know is that Apocalypse twenty two curses

1232
01:23:17,239 --> 01:23:20,239
anyone that has new revelation, and that's in that's consistent

1233
01:23:20,359 --> 01:23:24,840
with what's in Zachariah about not prophesying anymore in the

1234
01:23:24,880 --> 01:23:28,359
Messianic period. That doesn't mean that an individual saint like

1235
01:23:28,399 --> 01:23:30,920
Saint Piezios or many of these other saints, that they

1236
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:34,159
can't have clearaboyance or know that the elders can't know

1237
01:23:34,239 --> 01:23:38,000
things about you in a supernatural way. But that's not

1238
01:23:38,119 --> 01:23:41,079
equated to public revelation. We don't we're not romancoul There's

1239
01:23:41,079 --> 01:23:43,079
no fatoma that's going to give us like a new

1240
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:46,840
way to you know, like the like the Trads do,

1241
01:23:46,960 --> 01:23:48,319
or they don't care what they don't care what the

1242
01:23:48,319 --> 01:23:58,039
Pope says. They just follow apparitions. Are you there.

1243
01:24:00,319 --> 01:24:02,239
Speaker 2: That that that makes sense? Thank you?

1244
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:05,239
Speaker 1: Sure? I'm looking for the Texans zachar Ya that talks

1245
01:24:05,279 --> 01:24:09,920
about uh h, no longer propha signing because they came

1246
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:29,199
up in the discord the other day. Can somebody mute

1247
01:24:29,239 --> 01:24:34,680
instead of typing on the computer, let's see.

1248
01:24:43,680 --> 01:25:08,359
Speaker 13: H hey, Jake, quick question here?

1249
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:16,840
Speaker 14: So dealing with people who are judaizing and taking a

1250
01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:21,760
step further of Sabbatarianism, but rather saying, you know that

1251
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:24,199
we need to keep the Old Testament Holy days right.

1252
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:27,600
Speaker 2: The common criticism I've.

1253
01:25:27,560 --> 01:25:31,960
Speaker 14: I've had in my apologetics to some of these people.

1254
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:36,159
As I point to you know, the continuation of these

1255
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:38,800
holy days and the fulfillment of them, and you know

1256
01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:43,840
Pasca and Pentecost, but you know that the third major

1257
01:25:45,439 --> 01:25:51,199
best of season right in the fall, the fall festivals

1258
01:25:51,239 --> 01:25:55,279
like the visa Trumpet's a feast of atonement and feast

1259
01:25:55,279 --> 01:25:58,760
of tabernacles. What what comes to mind as the best

1260
01:26:00,600 --> 01:26:05,039
New Testament or church fulfillment to those days?

1261
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:08,640
Speaker 1: Well, atonement is what Christ did when he ascended and

1262
01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:10,520
sat the right hand of the farm. Mean, and it's Paul,

1263
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:12,920
it was it Romans three or four talks about Christ

1264
01:26:13,279 --> 01:26:16,600
cleansing the mercy seat when he ascended to the heavenly tabernacle.

1265
01:26:17,199 --> 01:26:18,560
Speaker 3: So Hebrews will tell.

1266
01:26:18,399 --> 01:26:22,800
Speaker 1: You what atonement is in terms of the new reality.

1267
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:26,279
It's when Christ descended, right is it? Hebrews seven? Or

1268
01:26:26,359 --> 01:26:28,840
Christ like the High Priest goes in the day of atonement,

1269
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:35,760
Paul says, Christ's ascension is the fulfillment of that. Do

1270
01:26:35,800 --> 01:26:37,560
you do you know what I'm talking about in Hebrews?

1271
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:39,520
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, right, right right?

1272
01:26:40,279 --> 01:26:41,920
Speaker 1: And what was it was the other one you listed?

1273
01:26:42,039 --> 01:26:45,800
Speaker 14: He said, Tom And what like Well, I guess mainly

1274
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:48,680
like the feast of tabernacles, right, that was like the

1275
01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:55,039
third major like feast where there was pilgrimage to the temple.

1276
01:26:55,279 --> 01:26:59,640
You know, we have a very distinct, possible season. We

1277
01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:01,680
have a very distinct Pentecost season.

1278
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:04,039
Speaker 2: What what I mean?

1279
01:27:04,159 --> 01:27:08,239
Speaker 1: Because yeah, isn't it isn't feast the booths directly related

1280
01:27:08,279 --> 01:27:11,239
to uh in gathering feast of gathering?

1281
01:27:11,319 --> 01:27:12,439
Speaker 2: Ye right? Right? Right?

1282
01:27:12,560 --> 01:27:14,399
Speaker 14: And we do have the you know, in dwelling of

1283
01:27:14,439 --> 01:27:19,279
the Holy Spirit and and all these things. But I

1284
01:27:19,279 --> 01:27:21,119
don't know, I've heard I've heard it b say that

1285
01:27:21,199 --> 01:27:24,760
we point to like the feast of the Transfiguration as

1286
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:26,960
a as a fulfillment of these things.

1287
01:27:27,039 --> 01:27:30,600
Speaker 2: But I'm just wondering what you had to think.

1288
01:27:32,399 --> 01:27:33,760
Speaker 3: If you read Edersheim's book.

1289
01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:37,439
Speaker 1: I looked at this last Pentecost and he actually talks

1290
01:27:37,479 --> 01:27:40,760
about the inter relationship between boots and Pentecost or weeks

1291
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:45,159
in Pentecost. Right, Uh So, I think, do you have

1292
01:27:45,199 --> 01:27:46,680
the Edersheim book that I'm talking about?

1293
01:27:46,720 --> 01:27:48,159
Speaker 3: You know what I'm talking about.

1294
01:27:48,600 --> 01:27:49,520
Speaker 2: What's the title of it?

1295
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:53,399
Speaker 1: Alfred Edershean he has two famous books, one on Christ

1296
01:27:53,560 --> 01:27:57,279
and the Law and then one on the Temple and

1297
01:27:57,359 --> 01:28:00,800
its ceremonies. So he he actually has a really good

1298
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:02,079
chapter on this question.

1299
01:28:03,479 --> 01:28:06,640
Speaker 2: Thanks. I'll have to check that out.

1300
01:28:09,079 --> 01:28:16,079
Speaker 1: I've got to hear somewhere. Let me sit back upon it. Anybody,

1301
01:28:16,079 --> 01:28:16,880
I got another question?

1302
01:28:31,439 --> 01:28:32,159
Speaker 2: I got a question.

1303
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:41,239
Speaker 15: So going back to the question of what profits are

1304
01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:45,199
and the closing of the office, what do you make

1305
01:28:45,279 --> 01:28:50,159
of Acts eleven, twenty seven, twenty eight, which talks about

1306
01:28:50,159 --> 01:28:52,960
a bunch of profits who came to Jerusalem and one

1307
01:28:53,000 --> 01:28:54,279
of them called Agabus.

1308
01:28:55,199 --> 01:28:55,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the.

1309
01:28:57,239 --> 01:28:57,319
Speaker 2: Right.

1310
01:28:57,399 --> 01:29:01,239
Speaker 1: This is the transition period. So the time of the Apostles,

1311
01:29:01,319 --> 01:29:03,399
the Book of Acts, that's the founding of the church.

1312
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:06,680
There is the office of prophet. But you'll notice when

1313
01:29:06,680 --> 01:29:09,399
the apostles die, when the early church is set up,

1314
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:16,279
justin Martyr Ignatius. Herein as Cyprian Tortullian, nobody talks about

1315
01:29:16,279 --> 01:29:20,560
prophets anymore up except for Tortullian, because he fell into

1316
01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:23,880
the heresy of Montanas and became a Montanist. And the

1317
01:29:23,920 --> 01:29:27,960
Montanists did believe in the continuation of prophets, namely that

1318
01:29:28,039 --> 01:29:31,279
their own heresy orc Montanas was the voice of the

1319
01:29:31,279 --> 01:29:33,560
Holy Spirit himself. In fact, Montanus said he was the

1320
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:36,520
incarnation of the Holy Spirit. But point being is that

1321
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:39,439
we know that the office of prophet does not continue

1322
01:29:39,439 --> 01:29:42,800
on after the death of John, but yes it is

1323
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:45,680
president in the Book of Acts Simpaul's Epistles too, Paul

1324
01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:48,960
says there's prophets, teachers, apostles, et cetera. I mean the

1325
01:29:49,000 --> 01:29:55,359
fact that Paul mentions apostles, there's no apostles, doesn't continue on, right, But.

1326
01:29:55,399 --> 01:29:58,680
Speaker 15: There are prophets after church on the Baptist but not

1327
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:01,920
after the death of say John the Revelator.

1328
01:30:02,119 --> 01:30:03,920
Speaker 2: Correct or something something like that.

1329
01:30:04,079 --> 01:30:05,880
Speaker 1: All right, But what I was saying is that when

1330
01:30:05,880 --> 01:30:08,239
we think of a prophet as like the Old Testament

1331
01:30:08,279 --> 01:30:12,159
office of a prophet like Isaiah or Jeremiah, I'm saying

1332
01:30:12,239 --> 01:30:15,239
Jesus says the law and the prophets were until John.

1333
01:30:16,279 --> 01:30:21,560
And so that's that's in the office of prophet, prophet, priest,

1334
01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:24,760
and king. That's fulfilled in Christ. We don't need prophets anymore.

1335
01:30:25,920 --> 01:30:29,239
But prophets in the Book of Acts and im Paul's Epistles.

1336
01:30:29,279 --> 01:30:31,800
These are people who are teachers in the church. And yes,

1337
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:34,279
they do have the ability at times to have clairvoyance. Uh,

1338
01:30:34,520 --> 01:30:37,239
there's I think Agabus has an instance of clairvoyance right

1339
01:30:37,279 --> 01:30:41,039
where he takes that belt. So but but they're not.

1340
01:30:42,119 --> 01:30:44,680
That's not an office. That's that's for the founding of

1341
01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:48,319
the church, just like speaking in tongues is the gift

1342
01:30:48,520 --> 01:30:53,079
given there at Pentecost, all right, Tongues is not happening

1343
01:30:53,560 --> 01:31:05,199
up into the times of the Church fathers. So this

1344
01:31:05,239 --> 01:31:08,359
is the Edersheim book that I was talking about the Temple.

1345
01:31:08,359 --> 01:31:11,479
It's ministries and services, and there's a whole chapter on

1346
01:31:12,199 --> 01:31:16,920
what you were asking about, unleavened bread and Pentecost and

1347
01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:23,000
Timer Nichols's chapter fourteen. And he's a famous Jewish convert

1348
01:31:23,079 --> 01:31:26,600
to Christianity. I don't know if he was an Anglican

1349
01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:29,399
or what he became PRESBYTERI or something like that, but

1350
01:31:30,640 --> 01:31:32,880
he is relevant because he was a good scholar who

1351
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:37,640
kind of was able to look at, you know, Jewish

1352
01:31:38,079 --> 01:31:41,359
history and tradition and find quite a bit of stuff

1353
01:31:41,359 --> 01:31:42,720
that backed up you know.

1354
01:31:43,520 --> 01:31:45,720
Speaker 2: That was Alfred, Sorry, Alfred.

1355
01:31:47,119 --> 01:31:50,039
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they're very they're famous books. They're pretty much

1356
01:31:50,039 --> 01:31:51,199
in every Christian bookstore.

1357
01:31:51,319 --> 01:31:53,439
Speaker 2: So right, okay, very very good.

1358
01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:56,560
Speaker 14: You know, Jane, I've been noticing this huge optic in

1359
01:31:57,479 --> 01:31:59,039
judaizing you across.

1360
01:31:59,039 --> 01:32:04,560
Speaker 1: They have it too. It's very strange, uh, father deacon,

1361
01:32:04,600 --> 01:32:05,840
would you want to take over for a minute. Are

1362
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:06,359
you still there?

1363
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:12,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just came in. I had to what's going on?

1364
01:32:12,359 --> 01:32:14,159
Speaker 1: I just got to take a brief break. We were

1365
01:32:14,199 --> 01:32:18,760
talking about judaizing in this tendency. Are you seeing an

1366
01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:23,520
uptick in Hebrew Israeli or Judaism or or Messianic Judaism

1367
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:25,079
and this kind of stuff. You want to speak to

1368
01:32:25,079 --> 01:32:26,159
that while yes.

1369
01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:32,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, oh sorry, what's your what's your take on

1370
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:35,680
what do you think the rise of that?

1371
01:32:35,720 --> 01:32:38,800
Speaker 14: Well, yeah, I've noticed it a lot in dissonant you know,

1372
01:32:39,039 --> 01:32:45,800
like dissonant right spheres. This the same I guess founding

1373
01:32:45,840 --> 01:32:48,479
myth that you see in all these restorationist groups that

1374
01:32:49,159 --> 01:32:52,760
you know, there was a falling away at some point

1375
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:57,600
in church history and then to actually revivifying the church

1376
01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:00,880
when you return to what was done in Old Testament

1377
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:04,520
and you know, by by the Mosaic Law and all

1378
01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:10,800
these things. So it's just another you know, branch of restortionism,

1379
01:33:10,880 --> 01:33:12,079
but realism.

1380
01:33:12,159 --> 01:33:13,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah.

1381
01:33:13,760 --> 01:33:16,439
Speaker 14: But then it's like trying like a humanist twist to it,

1382
01:33:16,479 --> 01:33:18,720
you know, like we need to read and speak the

1383
01:33:18,760 --> 01:33:22,359
original language and have the original name or original name

1384
01:33:22,399 --> 01:33:26,159
of Jesus, you know, and pronounce it properly and all

1385
01:33:26,199 --> 01:33:26,600
these things.

1386
01:33:26,600 --> 01:33:32,520
Speaker 2: It's so bizarre. Yeah, that's right. And what's strange too,

1387
01:33:32,640 --> 01:33:39,760
is then, well, I mean the idea that well, the

1388
01:33:39,880 --> 01:33:43,920
apostles and so they want to go prior to to Christ.

1389
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:47,479
I guess, but I guess they'd have to start learning

1390
01:33:48,199 --> 01:33:54,880
Greek Aramaic. But the Hebrew that was being written is

1391
01:33:55,319 --> 01:33:59,920
nothing that's available to that, right, it's not modern Hebrew. Yeah, right,

1392
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:03,760
what the what is that? It's like, it's not Paralysic,

1393
01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:06,359
it's like Middle there's different phases of like Hebrew. It's

1394
01:34:06,359 --> 01:34:08,800
amazing if you actually look at and see how different.

1395
01:34:09,079 --> 01:34:11,039
But no modern too to be able to read anything

1396
01:34:13,159 --> 01:34:24,039
from that. But yeah, it's really it's almost what's the

1397
01:34:24,039 --> 01:34:27,000
word I want to use? It's good because this kind

1398
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:32,319
of comes up in Yeah, they almost make like the

1399
01:34:32,359 --> 01:34:35,159
words like talisman's or something like that.

1400
01:34:35,079 --> 01:34:37,239
Speaker 1: That's a good way of superstitious.

1401
01:34:38,199 --> 01:34:39,319
Speaker 2: It's superstitious.

1402
01:34:39,399 --> 01:34:43,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like you think that the demons fear the

1403
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:44,600
language of Latin.

1404
01:34:44,840 --> 01:34:45,199
Speaker 2: Latin.

1405
01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:50,359
Speaker 1: You're just speaking Latin, the demons will melt. It's just

1406
01:34:50,399 --> 01:34:55,000
superstitious Latin.

1407
01:34:55,119 --> 01:34:58,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there is. I think just if You're right,

1408
01:35:00,479 --> 01:35:04,319
there is some type of political connection to that's causing

1409
01:35:04,359 --> 01:35:04,720
this to.

1410
01:35:05,560 --> 01:35:09,000
Speaker 14: Oh yeah, like if you looked at the QAnon boomers, right,

1411
01:35:09,159 --> 01:35:11,720
Like if you if you looked at any like q

1412
01:35:11,880 --> 01:35:15,079
Andon threat, there would be people shilling like you need

1413
01:35:15,079 --> 01:35:17,760
to observe the Sabbath, you know, blah blah blah, like

1414
01:35:18,239 --> 01:35:18,960
he's crazy.

1415
01:35:19,600 --> 01:35:23,079
Speaker 2: Well, I wonder if like I just finished in and

1416
01:35:23,199 --> 01:35:26,079
it was a couple of weeks ago, but when I

1417
01:35:26,119 --> 01:35:28,960
was teaching this political philosophy, we just finished a section

1418
01:35:29,079 --> 01:35:38,000
called messianic nationalism mm. And the messiatic nationalism was that,

1419
01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:43,560
I mean, it's really materialistic in some sense, but that

1420
01:35:45,319 --> 01:35:49,239
through a nation and a people in a very materialistic way,

1421
01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:52,560
that you would be able to bring in salvation for

1422
01:35:52,640 --> 01:35:55,800
the world, a new age, right, a new kind of Escanton,

1423
01:35:56,039 --> 01:36:01,439
like a new Aon, and it would transform the quality

1424
01:36:01,720 --> 01:36:08,920
of existence of man in the police. And I think

1425
01:36:08,960 --> 01:36:18,159
that you see this. I think that the certainly the

1426
01:36:18,319 --> 01:36:22,239
Jews had that kind of understanding as well too. And

1427
01:36:22,279 --> 01:36:26,760
I see that this reservices throughout history many different times,

1428
01:36:26,920 --> 01:36:30,640
this kind of messianic nationalism that the nation, I mean,

1429
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:40,720
it's even in the United States in some sense, so

1430
01:36:40,800 --> 01:36:43,439
it's something more than just patriotm It's like a group

1431
01:36:43,560 --> 01:36:49,119
of people in a nation will transform the existence of

1432
01:36:50,600 --> 01:36:53,239
all mankind in the world.

1433
01:36:54,079 --> 01:36:58,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, national that makes.

1434
01:36:58,920 --> 01:37:03,319
Speaker 2: So I see a in politics of that kind of

1435
01:37:03,359 --> 01:37:06,720
thought again. And there could be a link there that

1436
01:37:07,000 --> 01:37:11,840
draws them back to this kind of archaic kind of

1437
01:37:11,880 --> 01:37:18,720
notions of ancient Hebrews messianic nationalism in their kind of theology.

1438
01:37:19,239 --> 01:37:22,840
And you know, there's just a general temptation a lot

1439
01:37:22,880 --> 01:37:26,079
for people of what I call archaanism. Right, it must

1440
01:37:26,079 --> 01:37:28,680
be true just because the older it is right. And

1441
01:37:28,800 --> 01:37:31,600
so this ends up a jam I talked about. This

1442
01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:36,399
is one of the problems with the non Chalcedonians, at

1443
01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:39,840
least into the problem is they won't allow any kind

1444
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:44,119
of development of words to address certain like heretical issues.

1445
01:37:44,199 --> 01:37:46,279
They'll be like, I'm just sticking with this word. I'll

1446
01:37:46,319 --> 01:37:48,800
never let the you know that ever develop in the

1447
01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:51,560
kind of way it responds to. Well, you end up

1448
01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:55,880
getting problems. So I think that might be another element too,

1449
01:37:55,960 --> 01:37:58,760
that people think that if I.

1450
01:37:58,800 --> 01:38:02,479
Speaker 1: Just go back far enough, well, the irony is that

1451
01:38:02,520 --> 01:38:05,560
everything that all these messianic types are looking for is

1452
01:38:05,560 --> 01:38:07,960
in orthodox I mean, that's the irony here is that

1453
01:38:08,039 --> 01:38:10,079
all of these feasts and all this stuff they're looking for.

1454
01:38:10,359 --> 01:38:13,119
Just go watch Lewis's video again. That's why I put.

1455
01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:13,239
Speaker 7: It in here.

1456
01:38:13,279 --> 01:38:16,079
Speaker 1: I mean everything there that they're scrounging around for and

1457
01:38:16,079 --> 01:38:21,279
trying to find is right here, right, It's in this

1458
01:38:21,399 --> 01:38:22,119
video right here.

1459
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:27,279
Speaker 3: So once they yeah, grasp that.

1460
01:38:27,439 --> 01:38:30,439
Speaker 1: And by the way, what would you expect, Well, if

1461
01:38:30,479 --> 01:38:33,560
the church has its roots in the temple and the

1462
01:38:33,600 --> 01:38:36,239
synagogue worship, and it goes out to the nations as

1463
01:38:36,239 --> 01:38:38,520
all the prophets said it would when the Covenant opens

1464
01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:40,960
up to the nations when the Messiah comes, that's exactly

1465
01:38:41,000 --> 01:38:41,560
what happened.

1466
01:38:42,159 --> 01:38:42,960
Speaker 3: Of course, it's going to.

1467
01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:47,439
Speaker 1: Bear the stamp of both its synagogue temple roots as

1468
01:38:47,479 --> 01:38:51,600
well as its Byzantine period. Of course, it's going to

1469
01:38:51,640 --> 01:38:56,439
bear the stamp of that. That's what we would expect, right,

1470
01:38:56,680 --> 01:39:00,199
and that's what has happened. So it's just silly to

1471
01:39:00,279 --> 01:39:05,600
expect that somehow it's going to be this pure I

1472
01:39:05,640 --> 01:39:08,079
don't even know what, right, because I mean, Judaism itself

1473
01:39:08,119 --> 01:39:12,439
goes undergoes many periods, in many phases. There is no

1474
01:39:12,560 --> 01:39:17,359
ancient pure Judaism in the sense of what the Messianic

1475
01:39:17,439 --> 01:39:20,520
Jews are trying to recover or whatever they're trying to do,

1476
01:39:22,399 --> 01:39:25,239
like Orthodoxy is Messianic Judaism.

1477
01:39:25,319 --> 01:39:26,399
Speaker 3: That's what I'm trying to say.

1478
01:39:27,319 --> 01:39:31,239
Speaker 1: That's why the Byzantine Empire condemned Hellenism in the Schools

1479
01:39:31,239 --> 01:39:35,039
of Plato, and it did it for Biblicism. That's what

1480
01:39:35,119 --> 01:39:39,920
Mindor says. Mind Or says, Byzantium is the victory of

1481
01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:43,600
the Biblical worldview over Jerusalem. I'm excuse me, over Athens.

1482
01:39:43,640 --> 01:39:49,319
It's a victory of Jerusalem over Athens. So let's see.

1483
01:39:49,319 --> 01:39:55,920
We got another ship jay here from Crypto Currensteine fifteen dollars.

1484
01:39:56,479 --> 01:39:58,560
I don't have any questions, but God blessed well. Thank

1485
01:39:58,600 --> 01:40:03,279
you Crypto Currenstine, much appreciated anonymous for five dollars.

1486
01:40:03,319 --> 01:40:04,439
Speaker 3: Thank you for these streams.

1487
01:40:04,479 --> 01:40:06,960
Speaker 1: I pray and help that hierarchs and priests come to

1488
01:40:07,920 --> 01:40:10,960
light soon in our churches who say that we should

1489
01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:14,079
not venerate the icons. Yeah, that's where it's getting down

1490
01:40:14,119 --> 01:40:16,079
to the to the nitty gritty, right where they're trying

1491
01:40:16,119 --> 01:40:20,800
to tell people not to ventorate icons who work miracles

1492
01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:23,039
and are part of the true faith exactly. Thank you

1493
01:40:23,079 --> 01:40:25,640
for defending the icons. Yeah, that's one reason we're doing

1494
01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:28,960
this is to point out what we're supposed to believe.

1495
01:40:29,199 --> 01:40:37,159
Right to venerate the icons, you'll be blessed, Xander the Great? Yeah,

1496
01:40:37,199 --> 01:40:37,600
go ahead.

1497
01:40:38,239 --> 01:40:41,079
Speaker 2: What are they gonna do? Kick you out?

1498
01:40:42,680 --> 01:40:46,279
Speaker 1: Well, they're starting to have this segregated like stabbied non

1499
01:40:46,319 --> 01:40:50,960
stabbed sections, So yeah, I saw that. Yeah, Xander the Great,

1500
01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:56,000
two dollars, that makes so much sense. What was this question? Oh,

1501
01:40:56,079 --> 01:41:00,920
Nature in person in terms of the Trinity. My sister

1502
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:04,319
and I are trying to point to Christ. Thank you

1503
01:41:04,399 --> 01:41:10,800
for answering the questions about one mind in the trinity. Yeah, yeah,

1504
01:41:11,279 --> 01:41:14,760
probably reading Basil's letter thirty eight because Basil has a

1505
01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:19,680
really good discussion on the on Nature in Person. And

1506
01:41:19,720 --> 01:41:23,720
then try watch the video that David just made on

1507
01:41:24,039 --> 01:41:27,760
not three Gods because Saint Gregor and says kind of

1508
01:41:27,800 --> 01:41:30,479
dealing with that question too in his Trinitarian treatise on

1509
01:41:31,159 --> 01:41:33,840
how it is that God is one and yet also

1510
01:41:33,960 --> 01:41:37,640
three and then we're not polytheis right, there's not three gods.

1511
01:41:38,000 --> 01:41:41,079
So David just made about a twenty minute video on

1512
01:41:41,880 --> 01:41:43,079
that work by Saint Gregor.

1513
01:41:43,159 --> 01:41:43,439
Speaker 2: Nissa.

1514
01:41:45,399 --> 01:41:48,159
Speaker 3: What's next is that it for the super chats?

1515
01:41:49,159 --> 01:41:51,479
Speaker 1: Anybody else in the discord have a topic they want

1516
01:41:51,520 --> 01:41:55,640
to discuss before I get to this book by Saint Theodore.

1517
01:41:55,920 --> 01:42:05,039
Because we've already gone for two hours almost forty.

1518
01:42:05,079 --> 01:42:07,079
Speaker 2: If I could just chime in one last you.

1519
01:42:07,000 --> 01:42:08,520
Speaker 1: Know what, I may just wait on this and I'll

1520
01:42:08,560 --> 01:42:10,920
retitle this and do it something else. We'll just continue

1521
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:12,640
with the Q and A, and then I'll do the

1522
01:42:13,000 --> 01:42:17,199
book later, and then I'll just retitle this this topic

1523
01:42:17,279 --> 01:42:18,560
based on what we end up.

1524
01:42:18,479 --> 01:42:26,760
Speaker 2: Talking continue and just just a real quick side piece

1525
01:42:26,760 --> 01:42:27,239
of this. You know.

1526
01:42:27,359 --> 01:42:32,239
Speaker 14: I we were we were discussing about the q Andon

1527
01:42:32,359 --> 01:42:36,920
connection to Judaizing and the Masianic nationalism, all these things.

1528
01:42:36,960 --> 01:42:41,079
I really like that term Masianic nationalism. Thank you, Father

1529
01:42:41,159 --> 01:42:45,439
Deacon up. I see with that tie to you know,

1530
01:42:45,600 --> 01:42:49,800
it seems like America itself, right, Like this is the

1531
01:42:49,840 --> 01:42:53,319
audience that we're mainly working with is American Protestants, right that,

1532
01:42:54,119 --> 01:42:59,000
And it seems like the mind virus of chileasm is

1533
01:42:59,039 --> 01:43:01,680
so deeply rooted in the American psyche.

1534
01:43:01,760 --> 01:43:03,760
Speaker 1: I guess y, yeah, it goes back to the City

1535
01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:06,680
on a Hill, the Puritans, Yeah, right right.

1536
01:43:06,560 --> 01:43:13,000
Speaker 14: And particularly like you know, like pre millennialist. You know

1537
01:43:13,279 --> 01:43:17,119
this this notion of the millennium coming literally a thousand

1538
01:43:17,159 --> 01:43:21,239
years and and forgetting forgetting that as the church age.

1539
01:43:21,239 --> 01:43:25,039
I feel like that is like probably the main block

1540
01:43:25,439 --> 01:43:29,359
that I see that Protestants need to be destroyed.

1541
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:35,560
Speaker 2: Could you could you touch on that on how the churches.

1542
01:43:36,159 --> 01:43:38,119
Speaker 1: You're saying that, you're saying the belief. You're saying the

1543
01:43:38,119 --> 01:43:40,840
belief needs to destroyed, not that all Protestants need to

1544
01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:44,279
be destroyed. Oh yeah, yeah, Sorry, Sorry it sounded funny.

1545
01:43:44,520 --> 01:43:49,359
It sounded like Protestants need to be destroyed stample mode. Yeah,

1546
01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:53,079
So I did a I did a talk what one

1547
01:43:53,119 --> 01:43:58,479
month ago, two months February twenty fourth, I did Protestantism

1548
01:43:58,560 --> 01:44:02,680
with Alicism and dispansing. So if you're interested in that topic,

1549
01:44:03,279 --> 01:44:07,399
it's the last third where I deconstructed dispensationalism and pre millennialism.

1550
01:44:08,359 --> 01:44:11,640
There's the link to that video if you guys want

1551
01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:13,960
to go watch that. But yeah, I think you're right

1552
01:44:14,000 --> 01:44:17,239
that it's sort of just ingrained in the mindset of

1553
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:21,600
American Christianity of this kind of millennialism, this killism, this

1554
01:44:22,560 --> 01:44:27,600
imminentization of the escaton that the nations because Protestants doesn't

1555
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:31,479
have the church right. So they've they've lost the historic

1556
01:44:31,560 --> 01:44:35,399
continuity with that supernatural entity that is the Church. The

1557
01:44:35,520 --> 01:44:38,960
Church is not a human social organization. It's not fractured

1558
01:44:39,000 --> 01:44:42,319
into a million different sects. It's one historic group with

1559
01:44:42,399 --> 01:44:46,119
absolute succession with the true faith, with the sacraments right.

1560
01:44:47,279 --> 01:44:48,640
And if you don't have that, then you don't have

1561
01:44:48,680 --> 01:44:52,079
the church. So that is the church. And since Protestism

1562
01:44:52,119 --> 01:44:54,319
has lost that, it's just got kind of like these

1563
01:44:54,399 --> 01:44:56,880
pieces of the puzzle. It's got the Bible right, but

1564
01:44:56,920 --> 01:44:59,359
they don't have anything else. Now, they might get something's

1565
01:44:59,439 --> 01:45:02,000
right right. They'll get the Trinity maybe correct in a

1566
01:45:02,000 --> 01:45:04,399
little bit of a way, or the deity of Christ

1567
01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:08,000
or whatever, or you know, these kinds of basic generic ideas.

1568
01:45:08,079 --> 01:45:11,920
They might get that stuff right, but they will then

1569
01:45:12,119 --> 01:45:16,479
tend because the actual origins of Protestantism historically are actually

1570
01:45:16,560 --> 01:45:21,359
state churches. When Luther got his Reformation going, it was

1571
01:45:21,399 --> 01:45:25,119
with the aid of the German princes Calvin right, he

1572
01:45:25,239 --> 01:45:30,720
turned to this basically theocracy in Geneva. The other churches,

1573
01:45:30,760 --> 01:45:34,760
the Protestant state churches, the Anglican churches, a state church

1574
01:45:35,039 --> 01:45:39,920
Henry the eighth right, the very origins of Protestantism turned

1575
01:45:39,920 --> 01:45:43,119
the nation state into kind of a version of the Church.

1576
01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:47,640
And so it's no accident that the Puritans in America

1577
01:45:48,800 --> 01:45:50,840
they're sitting on a hill, doctrine and all this kind

1578
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:55,520
of stuff. It turns America into the new mystical body

1579
01:45:55,560 --> 01:45:59,039
of Christ, the mystical Church. And that's why they will

1580
01:45:59,039 --> 01:46:03,920
treat the constitution like us this inspired revelation of God, right.

1581
01:46:05,880 --> 01:46:06,000
Speaker 6: Uh.

1582
01:46:06,039 --> 01:46:08,279
Speaker 1: And then and then that's a big cause. They're looking

1583
01:46:08,319 --> 01:46:11,039
for these things that they lost when they lost the church.

1584
01:46:11,479 --> 01:46:21,159
Speaker 14: So anyway, wonderfully put thank you, thank you, Jim, uh.

1585
01:46:21,159 --> 01:46:27,560
Speaker 1: Huh, anybody else we still got, We'll go for another

1586
01:46:27,840 --> 01:46:30,399
twenty minutes for so until we get to two hours.

1587
01:46:35,319 --> 01:46:36,039
Speaker 2: They have a question.

1588
01:46:36,960 --> 01:46:40,039
Speaker 1: Sure, So, Uh.

1589
01:46:40,239 --> 01:46:42,560
Speaker 4: I have a friend that I talk with from time

1590
01:46:42,600 --> 01:46:49,479
to time, and he's a non denominational Christian, and so

1591
01:46:50,479 --> 01:46:53,479
when I you know, we debate or whatever, to go

1592
01:46:53,560 --> 01:46:57,000
back and forth, and he says stuff like, uh, well

1593
01:46:57,039 --> 01:47:01,399
the Bible predates all of these uh, all of these

1594
01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:06,279
early Christians that that interpret the Bible their way. And

1595
01:47:06,319 --> 01:47:10,359
he'll say something like, well, even if you're right, what

1596
01:47:10,399 --> 01:47:12,159
does it matter. What does it matter if you have

1597
01:47:12,319 --> 01:47:14,960
seventy whatever books and we only have sixty six what

1598
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:16,239
do those extra books matter?

1599
01:47:18,760 --> 01:47:20,920
Speaker 2: And he just kind of goes down that route.

1600
01:47:22,520 --> 01:47:26,560
Speaker 1: Actually it's the other way around. The Church predates the Bible.

1601
01:47:27,199 --> 01:47:30,920
I mean, that's that's totally backwards. First of all, there

1602
01:47:31,079 --> 01:47:36,000
was no Bible collection of books before the church. The

1603
01:47:36,119 --> 01:47:40,359
Church was established at Pentecost. It exists historically before the

1604
01:47:40,680 --> 01:47:44,960
canon of Scripture, just basic fact of history. So that

1605
01:47:45,039 --> 01:47:48,479
was that's just flat out false. And then again I

1606
01:47:49,039 --> 01:47:51,520
would come back to the point that, well, if he

1607
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:55,119
believes that the Bible is the you know, final rule

1608
01:47:55,199 --> 01:47:58,800
of faith and morals for any Christian that's that's authoritative

1609
01:47:58,800 --> 01:48:02,319
and infallible, then he needs to be sure that he's

1610
01:48:02,319 --> 01:48:05,479
got the right one, right, I mean doesn't it doesn't

1611
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:06,840
it matter which? Well, which one?

1612
01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:10,479
Speaker 2: Yeah matter? Then why not just like throw Matthews Like

1613
01:48:10,520 --> 01:48:14,960
you can just tear Matthew exactly, Like now you know

1614
01:48:15,039 --> 01:48:19,520
what he could do. He could do, uh what's his name?

1615
01:48:20,199 --> 01:48:22,319
He just makes a Jeffson Bible.

1616
01:48:23,560 --> 01:48:26,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great that's a great analogy to bring up.

1617
01:48:26,119 --> 01:48:27,680
Is that, why do you have a problem with the

1618
01:48:27,760 --> 01:48:33,079
Jefferson Bible that removes all the miracles or I I

1619
01:48:33,199 --> 01:48:37,560
like my example of I say, guys, I prayed really hard. Uh,

1620
01:48:38,239 --> 01:48:39,720
I've asked the Holy Spirit. Trust me.

1621
01:48:39,880 --> 01:48:41,319
Speaker 3: It's the Holy Spirit that's leading me.

1622
01:48:41,920 --> 01:48:44,720
Speaker 1: And I've come to the conclusion that only the Book

1623
01:48:44,760 --> 01:48:46,359
of Jude is the New Testament cannon.

1624
01:48:46,560 --> 01:48:47,560
Speaker 3: Sorry, guys, I know if.

1625
01:48:47,520 --> 01:48:49,600
Speaker 1: You probably want but that's it, that's it. But I

1626
01:48:49,800 --> 01:48:51,760
trust me. I prayed a lot about it, uh, and

1627
01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:54,680
I'm pretty sure that it's God that's leading me to

1628
01:48:54,840 --> 01:48:57,560
believe this, So just trust me.

1629
01:48:57,840 --> 01:49:01,560
Speaker 3: So in other words, why what who has the right canon?

1630
01:49:01,600 --> 01:49:04,800
Speaker 1: If you've got these different groups, how are you how

1631
01:49:04,800 --> 01:49:08,159
are we going to resolve this question? There's no prima

1632
01:49:08,199 --> 01:49:12,399
fascia like a priori, you know, just well you just

1633
01:49:12,439 --> 01:49:15,079
look at the different books, right like I've got here

1634
01:49:15,119 --> 01:49:18,680
before me, right now, here's this Bible that's an Orthodox Bible,

1635
01:49:19,039 --> 01:49:23,279
and this is my old Calvinists Reform study Bible. They've

1636
01:49:23,279 --> 01:49:25,760
got way more books than this one than this one.

1637
01:49:27,399 --> 01:49:28,880
How do I know which one is the right Bible?

1638
01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:32,640
How are we going to determine this? Just looking at

1639
01:49:32,680 --> 01:49:34,800
the two books isn't going to tell me. Reading it

1640
01:49:34,840 --> 01:49:39,119
a bunch isn't necessarily going to tell me. How do

1641
01:49:39,159 --> 01:49:39,359
we know?

1642
01:49:39,800 --> 01:49:42,960
Speaker 4: Yeah? And so like so like when we go down

1643
01:49:43,000 --> 01:49:45,800
this route, we kind of end up going like, well,

1644
01:49:46,079 --> 01:49:48,640
you know, he'll say something like, well, why do you

1645
01:49:48,680 --> 01:49:52,359
need to pray to saints? Jesus is sufficient on Jesus?

1646
01:49:52,359 --> 01:49:54,039
Speaker 2: You really need to.

1647
01:49:53,960 --> 01:49:56,840
Speaker 1: Read he Okay, well, then then why do you ask

1648
01:49:56,840 --> 01:49:59,600
your friends to pray for you? Your prayers? Talking to

1649
01:49:59,680 --> 01:50:01,119
actually notice, and.

1650
01:50:01,079 --> 01:50:03,159
Speaker 2: I noticed that if somebody in the chat was the same

1651
01:50:03,159 --> 01:50:06,920
way too. This is typically somebody who's either evangelical or

1652
01:50:07,920 --> 01:50:13,640
influenced by it. They fall into the false dichotomy and fallacy. Now,

1653
01:50:13,720 --> 01:50:16,239
if they were consistent that they would do exactly as

1654
01:50:17,279 --> 01:50:20,960
why do I need to talk to anybody? I don't

1655
01:50:21,000 --> 01:50:22,960
need any family. All I need is Jesus.

1656
01:50:23,039 --> 01:50:23,760
Speaker 1: Right, so I.

1657
01:50:23,680 --> 01:50:26,520
Speaker 2: Don't need to eat, I don't need to have any

1658
01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:29,680
social interactions. But do you see how silly that is?

1659
01:50:29,720 --> 01:50:33,520
It's not an either or right that we all work.

1660
01:50:33,640 --> 01:50:38,920
We intercede for, we pray for one another both and

1661
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:41,960
ask for each other's prayers, both in this life and

1662
01:50:42,119 --> 01:50:44,920
those who gone into the next life.

1663
01:50:46,359 --> 01:50:50,199
Speaker 4: Right, and then he'll say something. You know, I'll say, well,

1664
01:50:51,199 --> 01:50:53,520
you know, the Bible says the prayers of the righteous

1665
01:50:54,479 --> 01:50:56,760
m and I shouldn't.

1666
01:50:56,319 --> 01:50:56,680
Speaker 2: Get it too.

1667
01:50:57,800 --> 01:51:00,720
Speaker 1: Tell them to read the Book of Amos, because Amos,

1668
01:51:00,960 --> 01:51:04,239
the whole Book of Amos is about Amos praying and

1669
01:51:04,399 --> 01:51:08,399
interceding and quote changing God's mind. Now, Amos didn't really

1670
01:51:08,520 --> 01:51:11,560
change God's mind, but the prayers of a righteous man

1671
01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:15,359
are efficacious. They actually God wanted to demonstrate that he

1672
01:51:15,399 --> 01:51:18,840
has chosen to include the prayers of his people in

1673
01:51:18,840 --> 01:51:22,640
his governance of the universe. And so our God our

1674
01:51:23,600 --> 01:51:24,640
theology too.

1675
01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:28,119
Speaker 2: Right, so the energies of God would work with his people,

1676
01:51:28,159 --> 01:51:31,159
and we work with the energies of God. It's never

1677
01:51:31,199 --> 01:51:31,880
in either.

1678
01:51:31,840 --> 01:51:36,640
Speaker 4: Or yeah, And so you know that he'll always or

1679
01:51:36,800 --> 01:51:39,600
I guess it's not just him. They'll always say something

1680
01:51:39,720 --> 01:51:45,720
like all what is that? It's like all no man

1681
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:46,079
is good?

1682
01:51:46,159 --> 01:51:47,399
Speaker 2: No, not want or something that.

1683
01:51:48,079 --> 01:51:52,600
Speaker 1: Well, that's just a hermeneutical mistake because I mean, Jesus not.

1684
01:51:53,159 --> 01:51:55,960
That's what we covered in the first fifteen to twenty

1685
01:51:55,960 --> 01:51:58,760
minutes is hyperbole, right.

1686
01:52:00,680 --> 01:52:04,600
Speaker 2: Got you like call no man father yeah.

1687
01:52:04,279 --> 01:52:07,640
Speaker 1: Or cut your hand off if it makes you sin, Well,

1688
01:52:07,680 --> 01:52:10,479
your hand doesn't make you sin. Okay, it's hyperbole. Uh,

1689
01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:12,840
no one, no one is good? But God, Well, I

1690
01:52:12,880 --> 01:52:14,640
mean he's some of the Father. Does that mean the

1691
01:52:14,640 --> 01:52:17,960
Holy Spirit's not good. I mean, does that mean that, uh?

1692
01:52:18,399 --> 01:52:23,920
You know, it says, for example in Luke one that Jack,

1693
01:52:24,000 --> 01:52:26,359
Ryan and Elizabeth were righteous keeping all the commands of

1694
01:52:26,399 --> 01:52:29,079
the Lord. Well they were good, they were good people.

1695
01:52:29,239 --> 01:52:29,439
Speaker 15: Right.

1696
01:52:31,119 --> 01:52:33,039
Speaker 1: I would ask your friend this. I would say, uh,

1697
01:52:34,039 --> 01:52:36,560
what do you think is the pillar and ground of truth?

1698
01:52:37,239 --> 01:52:39,039
And I like to ask that question because when I

1699
01:52:39,119 --> 01:52:41,159
was a Protestant, right, people would bring that up and

1700
01:52:41,199 --> 01:52:44,560
I'd say, the Bible, right, the Bible's.

1701
01:52:44,239 --> 01:52:46,039
Speaker 3: A word of God, the Bible pillar and ground.

1702
01:52:46,079 --> 01:52:48,520
Speaker 1: Bible was a pillar and ground, a true And I

1703
01:52:48,560 --> 01:52:51,119
would always just say, and I remember when somebody asked

1704
01:52:51,119 --> 01:52:52,560
me that said, they wud say, well, how come Paul

1705
01:52:52,640 --> 01:52:54,239
says the church is the pillar and ground of truth?

1706
01:52:54,399 --> 01:52:57,079
Why doesn't Paul say that the written texts are. And

1707
01:52:57,079 --> 01:53:00,000
if you read First timod. Three fifteen, that's what Paul says, right,

1708
01:53:00,800 --> 01:53:04,760
uh know, how to conduct yourself right in the in

1709
01:53:04,560 --> 01:53:07,039
the Church of God, which is the pillar and ground

1710
01:53:07,039 --> 01:53:10,720
of truth. The living body of the community is the

1711
01:53:10,720 --> 01:53:14,760
pillar and ground of truth, not the written texts. The

1712
01:53:14,800 --> 01:53:17,960
written text and then the written texts are the liturgical

1713
01:53:18,520 --> 01:53:21,560
documents of that pillaring ground of truth, living body of

1714
01:53:21,600 --> 01:53:25,039
the Church. So in other words, protests just take this

1715
01:53:25,119 --> 01:53:26,680
book out of the context.

1716
01:53:26,840 --> 01:53:28,840
Speaker 3: What's the context the liturgy.

1717
01:53:28,439 --> 01:53:35,319
Speaker 4: Of the church, right, and then you know, no, I

1718
01:53:35,359 --> 01:53:37,840
was just going to say, and you know where they're

1719
01:53:37,880 --> 01:53:40,239
going to go after that. They'll say, oh, yeah, the church.

1720
01:53:42,560 --> 01:53:45,960
They'll say what you know, they'll just say like, yeah,

1721
01:53:46,000 --> 01:53:48,680
the church. If they go this route, they'll see, yeah,

1722
01:53:48,680 --> 01:53:50,600
the church is just you know, the invisible church.

1723
01:53:54,399 --> 01:53:57,039
Speaker 1: Paul says that the church is as visible as Jesus

1724
01:53:57,039 --> 01:53:59,880
body is visible. There is no invisible church. That's a

1725
01:54:00,039 --> 01:54:04,199
made up Protestant doctrine. That's a Nestorian doctrine of ecclesiology.

1726
01:54:04,439 --> 01:54:06,119
And now I would say, where's your church in the

1727
01:54:06,159 --> 01:54:11,239
third century, where's your church in the fourth century, fifth century, sixth, seventh, eighth, nineteenth.

1728
01:54:11,560 --> 01:54:14,800
Tell them to tell me where is the true believing

1729
01:54:14,880 --> 01:54:17,199
church in each of those centuries, and then I'll believe

1730
01:54:17,239 --> 01:54:19,439
your church. And they won't be able to do it

1731
01:54:19,479 --> 01:54:22,800
because nobody believed anything Protestant in those centuries except for

1732
01:54:23,000 --> 01:54:23,840
stupid heresies.

1733
01:54:25,199 --> 01:54:29,479
Speaker 2: Yep, okay, thank you. It just kind of reveals that

1734
01:54:30,000 --> 01:54:33,680
people think that they, oh, I can figure out what

1735
01:54:33,760 --> 01:54:36,039
the teachings are by just picking up a book, and

1736
01:54:36,199 --> 01:54:47,680
it illustrates the myth of.

1737
01:54:45,720 --> 01:54:49,279
Speaker 1: Neutrality, right, yeah, yeah, the Texas means what it says,

1738
01:54:49,279 --> 01:54:50,279
and it says what it means.

1739
01:54:50,439 --> 01:54:55,560
Speaker 2: I'll just apply to my critical hermeneutic. All just figure

1740
01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:58,319
it out. But the problem is people aren't figuring it out.

1741
01:54:58,319 --> 01:55:01,119
They're going all over the place. You have to have

1742
01:55:01,359 --> 01:55:06,439
the right paradigm in order to read the text, so you,

1743
01:55:07,000 --> 01:55:09,640
I mean, it should it should be patently obvious that

1744
01:55:09,720 --> 01:55:13,119
when people are coming up with these interpretations, it's obviously

1745
01:55:14,000 --> 01:55:16,399
they don't understand what these They don't know how to

1746
01:55:16,399 --> 01:55:20,159
read the text. And it's not like reading another book.

1747
01:55:20,199 --> 01:55:22,600
I mean, I guess there was even some analogies to

1748
01:55:22,880 --> 01:55:26,439
with other texts. If you don't have the right paradigm,

1749
01:55:26,600 --> 01:55:30,640
you're even going to read, you know, like non sacred texts.

1750
01:55:31,439 --> 01:55:33,479
Speaker 1: Well, I can remember when I was a Protestant thinking

1751
01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:35,840
when I would be challenged with these kinds of questions initially,

1752
01:55:35,880 --> 01:55:39,239
and I remember thinking, well, I mean, I'm sure there's

1753
01:55:39,279 --> 01:55:43,239
something akin to basic Protestant ideas in the first eight

1754
01:55:43,319 --> 01:55:46,439
centuries of the church. I mean I just assumed, well,

1755
01:55:46,520 --> 01:55:49,279
I mean there's got to be something like that, and

1756
01:55:49,359 --> 01:55:49,680
they're not.

1757
01:55:51,640 --> 01:55:55,880
Speaker 4: So yeah, that's that's I mean that's kind of what

1758
01:55:55,880 --> 01:55:59,760
what brought me out of Protestantism was all the uh

1759
01:56:00,479 --> 01:56:03,079
not all Protestants, but the Protestants I was around there,

1760
01:56:03,479 --> 01:56:09,000
you know, kind of touted Saint Augustine.

1761
01:56:07,439 --> 01:56:10,039
Speaker 1: And I used to too. And then I realized that he

1762
01:56:10,119 --> 01:56:12,399
was a bishop and he believed in apsodic succession, and

1763
01:56:12,439 --> 01:56:15,119
he believed in relics and the Eucharist and all this

1764
01:56:15,199 --> 01:56:16,560
kind and I was like, oh, okay, so he doesn't

1765
01:56:16,560 --> 01:56:19,479
actually support my position, right, yeah.

1766
01:56:19,319 --> 01:56:21,439
Speaker 4: And that's that's kind of where I began. And then

1767
01:56:21,479 --> 01:56:25,520
I ran the anti Nicene Fathers, and right all of them,

1768
01:56:25,640 --> 01:56:29,239
I think, to the man talks about the Eucharist and

1769
01:56:30,319 --> 01:56:32,680
bishops and stuff like that, and that's really where I

1770
01:56:32,720 --> 01:56:33,960
started doubting Protestant.

1771
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the Canons of Nicia, right, I mean

1772
01:56:36,800 --> 01:56:40,239
Nicia show, the Canons of Nicea show that, like I thought,

1773
01:56:40,279 --> 01:56:43,359
I was believing, you know, Nicee Christianity as a Protestant.

1774
01:56:43,359 --> 01:56:45,439
And I remember when I got my Philip schaft set,

1775
01:56:45,520 --> 01:56:47,600
I read the the Canons of Nicia, and it's talking

1776
01:56:47,600 --> 01:56:50,920
about bishops, it's talking about eucharists, it's talking about uh,

1777
01:56:51,000 --> 01:56:54,279
you know, christ Nation is talking about fasting. It's talking

1778
01:56:54,319 --> 01:56:58,199
about all the stuff that you know is totally antithetical

1779
01:56:58,199 --> 01:57:00,239
to Protestantism, and in fact, as a Calvinist, as a

1780
01:57:00,279 --> 01:57:03,560
reform Protestant, I thought was heretical. So I'm like, no,

1781
01:57:03,640 --> 01:57:05,680
wait a minute, how am I going to call these

1782
01:57:05,720 --> 01:57:08,760
people heretical? And yet, well, but I believe they're they're

1783
01:57:08,840 --> 01:57:12,239
creed about Jesus right, and the eternal generation of the

1784
01:57:12,319 --> 01:57:16,119
Son from the Father, right, these equally divine homousius blah

1785
01:57:16,159 --> 01:57:18,479
blah blah blah. But I had no I'd never and

1786
01:57:18,520 --> 01:57:20,159
by the way, my pastor he didn't know where the

1787
01:57:20,199 --> 01:57:24,399
cans and I SEO said they'd never heard this stuff. Uh,

1788
01:57:24,439 --> 01:57:26,720
And then they just doubled down and well, okay, well

1789
01:57:26,720 --> 01:57:28,840
I don't have a problem saying that they're all in

1790
01:57:29,000 --> 01:57:33,000
error in heresy. That was the they doubled down. I

1791
01:57:33,039 --> 01:57:35,479
was like, no, I'm not gonna I mean, it just

1792
01:57:35,479 --> 01:57:39,359
doesn't make any sense, right, So, okay, Well, if they're

1793
01:57:39,359 --> 01:57:40,800
all heretical, then where's the church.

1794
01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:44,560
Speaker 3: Well, the church has error. Their church has errors, and it's.

1795
01:57:44,359 --> 01:57:48,840
Speaker 1: Got spots, and it's been divided and fallen into mistakes

1796
01:57:48,920 --> 01:57:51,640
in every century. No, that doesn't work because the gates

1797
01:57:51,640 --> 01:57:56,760
of Hell won't prevail against the church. You can't have

1798
01:57:56,840 --> 01:57:59,479
the whole body of the church apostate. That's just stupid.

1799
01:57:59,479 --> 01:58:03,239
That's why all the Protestants that are consistent, they end

1800
01:58:03,279 --> 01:58:05,640
up in like Joseph Smith, physicians. Well, it's time to

1801
01:58:05,680 --> 01:58:08,279
restore the church. Yeah, there was a blackout. Paul washer

1802
01:58:08,319 --> 01:58:11,159
of the famous internet Calvinist preacher. He says there was

1803
01:58:11,199 --> 01:58:13,520
a blackout from the time of the death of the

1804
01:58:13,560 --> 01:58:17,600
Apostles until I don't know, Anabaptist whatever he thinks there's

1805
01:58:17,600 --> 01:58:18,520
a blackout.

1806
01:58:20,239 --> 01:58:24,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what my friend. I mean, he goes to

1807
01:58:24,239 --> 01:58:26,800
church or whatever, but like he doesn't even believe everything

1808
01:58:26,840 --> 01:58:28,079
that he's church.

1809
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:31,960
Speaker 1: Because he has well ninety nine percent of the time

1810
01:58:31,960 --> 01:58:34,359
with not every time, but I mean there's a few

1811
01:58:34,359 --> 01:58:36,760
exceptions where it's just people that are bad willed and

1812
01:58:36,920 --> 01:58:39,119
double down, like James White or somebody like that. But

1813
01:58:39,159 --> 01:58:42,239
ninety nine percent of the time it's uh, people are ignorant.

1814
01:58:43,319 --> 01:58:48,880
Speaker 4: So, yeah, he has a he got his masters and something.

1815
01:58:48,600 --> 01:58:49,199
Speaker 2: I can't remember.

1816
01:58:50,239 --> 01:58:54,479
Speaker 1: He has masters, yeah, and what.

1817
01:58:56,039 --> 01:58:58,479
Speaker 4: I don't remember where he went, but you know, he

1818
01:58:58,560 --> 01:59:00,880
got his masters at.

1819
01:59:00,760 --> 01:59:03,760
Speaker 1: Some Bible call non nominational or a Baptist or what

1820
01:59:04,840 --> 01:59:05,279
I think.

1821
01:59:05,159 --> 01:59:06,720
Speaker 2: It was a Baptist.

1822
01:59:06,760 --> 01:59:09,359
Speaker 1: I had to ask, Okay, well, yeah, I mean it

1823
01:59:09,439 --> 01:59:11,960
is possible to get your masters as a Baptist and

1824
01:59:12,039 --> 01:59:14,840
be completely ignorant of church history that I've seen many

1825
01:59:14,880 --> 01:59:15,560
people like that.

1826
01:59:18,039 --> 01:59:21,560
Speaker 4: Anyway, one last thing kind of regarding this, have you

1827
01:59:21,960 --> 01:59:23,640
are you aware of a person.

1828
01:59:23,680 --> 01:59:27,039
Speaker 16: I've got something to say to you. Brother, I've got

1829
01:59:27,079 --> 01:59:30,840
something to say to you, and you're not going to

1830
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:36,000
like it. But I've seen into Hell, friends, and I've

1831
01:59:36,039 --> 01:59:39,399
seen into Hell. And when I looked into Hell, I

1832
01:59:39,439 --> 01:59:44,840
saw you there and I wept over you, friend, because

1833
01:59:44,880 --> 01:59:45,880
I don't want you to.

1834
01:59:45,880 --> 01:59:46,520
Speaker 2: Go to Hell.

1835
01:59:47,399 --> 01:59:48,800
Speaker 3: I want you to be saved.

1836
01:59:48,840 --> 01:59:52,720
Speaker 16: But I also believe in predestination and election. And by

1837
01:59:52,760 --> 01:59:56,159
the way, I'm a missionary who works for NGOs, and

1838
01:59:56,239 --> 01:59:59,199
please give me money, friend, because I'm gonna cry at

1839
01:59:59,199 --> 02:00:02,680
every point time I do this, simon exactly thirty nine

1840
02:00:02,720 --> 02:00:05,960
minutes and forty two seconds, I'm going to cry because

1841
02:00:06,000 --> 02:00:10,159
I'm Paul Washer and I have a fake affected New

1842
02:00:10,239 --> 02:00:13,720
England almost English accent fringe.

1843
02:00:14,960 --> 02:00:16,119
Speaker 3: Sorry, I couldn't resist.

1844
02:00:16,159 --> 02:00:18,920
Speaker 1: Somebody was requesting and Paul Washer impression in the chat,

1845
02:00:19,000 --> 02:00:20,880
so I did it.

1846
02:00:21,000 --> 02:00:23,800
Speaker 4: Hilarious. You know who Vody Bocam is.

1847
02:00:24,359 --> 02:00:27,479
Speaker 1: No, who's that? Okay, who's he?

1848
02:00:28,119 --> 02:00:28,279
Speaker 2: Uh?

1849
02:00:28,560 --> 02:00:33,159
Speaker 4: He's uh, he's another guy that influenced my friend.

1850
02:00:32,920 --> 02:00:37,119
Speaker 1: A lot, voting Bockham. That's real. That's a realm, a

1851
02:00:37,159 --> 02:00:37,560
real name.

1852
02:00:38,479 --> 02:00:42,479
Speaker 2: It is a real name. It sounds like a like

1853
02:00:42,520 --> 02:00:43,479
a surfer or something.

1854
02:00:46,479 --> 02:00:50,159
Speaker 1: Dude. Yeah, it's like the Patrick Swayze in Point Break body.

1855
02:00:50,520 --> 02:00:52,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a big black dude.

1856
02:00:53,640 --> 02:00:56,840
Speaker 1: Okay, well he must be right. If he's a big

1857
02:00:56,880 --> 02:00:58,159
black dude, then I know he's right.

1858
02:00:58,760 --> 02:01:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah.

1859
02:01:01,560 --> 02:01:07,000
Speaker 4: The reason I asked you is because my friend. Anyway,

1860
02:01:07,039 --> 02:01:07,560
thanks for.

1861
02:01:07,800 --> 02:01:09,479
Speaker 2: Taking my question. Your friends.

1862
02:01:16,760 --> 02:01:19,760
Speaker 17: Uh, I got a question, Jay, And I'm totally not

1863
02:01:20,680 --> 02:01:21,640
YouTube regarding to you.

1864
02:01:21,720 --> 02:01:22,359
Speaker 2: I'm just a.

1865
02:01:22,359 --> 02:01:26,840
Speaker 1: Random we got we got we got Delvin the Red

1866
02:01:26,920 --> 02:01:27,600
med White.

1867
02:01:28,840 --> 02:01:36,239
Speaker 17: Yeah, total total random. This is a This is gonna

1868
02:01:36,239 --> 02:01:38,439
be a very stupid question, but I love stupid questions,

1869
02:01:38,479 --> 02:01:39,159
so I'm gonna ask it.

1870
02:01:39,199 --> 02:01:40,039
Speaker 1: Anyway.

1871
02:01:40,479 --> 02:01:44,239
Speaker 17: Would you agree with the assessment that we can have

1872
02:01:44,479 --> 02:01:47,239
knowledge only in three base and I'm not talking about

1873
02:01:47,239 --> 02:01:50,720
like justifiable for example, I'm talking about three different ways

1874
02:01:50,720 --> 02:01:53,239
of knowledge where we can have them through sense data,

1875
02:01:53,399 --> 02:01:57,279
you know, seeing things that we can know things by contemplation.

1876
02:01:57,439 --> 02:02:01,319
For example, let's say we're contemplation gating logic, Well, it.

1877
02:02:01,279 --> 02:02:03,640
Speaker 2: Has real existence. We know logic exists.

1878
02:02:04,199 --> 02:02:06,640
Speaker 17: We can have knowledge true that, or we can have

1879
02:02:06,680 --> 02:02:10,239
knowledge true knowing something's essence. Would you agree those are

1880
02:02:10,239 --> 02:02:13,039
the only three vays to know something or would you

1881
02:02:13,279 --> 02:02:16,680
say that there can be more vase ways.

1882
02:02:17,399 --> 02:02:22,399
Speaker 1: Like I would say for knowing the created order as creatures,

1883
02:02:23,039 --> 02:02:26,760
I can't think of another way. And then for the

1884
02:02:26,840 --> 02:02:32,119
Christian there's the direct perception of the logie, which is

1885
02:02:32,119 --> 02:02:34,399
a higher way for those who achieve.

1886
02:02:38,119 --> 02:02:41,479
Speaker 17: Yeah, I'm asking in the Christian sense pretty much like

1887
02:02:41,600 --> 02:02:44,199
not in the secular sense, but like if you're a Christian,

1888
02:02:45,479 --> 02:02:48,039
I guess I guess knowing the essence will kind of

1889
02:02:49,039 --> 02:02:52,439
that will answer the question more details, like perceiving.

1890
02:02:53,720 --> 02:03:01,359
Speaker 2: You are more accurate, right, bit, So.

1891
02:03:01,439 --> 02:03:06,279
Speaker 1: I would say that when we perceive objects, I don't

1892
02:03:06,319 --> 02:03:10,560
think that Aristotle is or John Damascus are wrong to

1893
02:03:10,640 --> 02:03:14,079
say that we perceive an object and then we we

1894
02:03:14,159 --> 02:03:16,600
do abstract. The mind has the power the ability to

1895
02:03:16,720 --> 02:03:22,640
abstract principles and things from objects. Yes, and that is

1896
02:03:22,840 --> 02:03:23,640
in contemplation.

1897
02:03:24,319 --> 02:03:27,199
Speaker 2: Sensing wouldn't be knowing. It'd be like a pathway to

1898
02:03:27,199 --> 02:03:27,880
you knowing.

1899
02:03:29,600 --> 02:03:35,640
Speaker 1: Right, And I think that ultimately what gives unity and

1900
02:03:35,680 --> 02:03:38,960
coherence and meaning to what we perceive is the logie,

1901
02:03:39,000 --> 02:03:42,720
even though we may not directly perceive the LOGI ultimately

1902
02:03:42,720 --> 02:03:45,800
that's where it's grounded as the mind of God. But

1903
02:03:45,840 --> 02:03:51,119
even an unbeliever can have correct, factual knowledge about things

1904
02:03:51,159 --> 02:03:55,119
and can make true statements because even though their noos

1905
02:03:55,159 --> 02:03:58,199
is dark, and they're still able to do contemplation and

1906
02:03:58,279 --> 02:04:00,880
still able to get part of the picture to speak.

1907
02:04:02,039 --> 02:04:04,640
Speaker 17: So the reason why I'm kind of asking this is

1908
02:04:04,720 --> 02:04:06,479
and if we had a chat on this couple of

1909
02:04:06,560 --> 02:04:10,399
days ago, on this voice chat as well on I'm

1910
02:04:10,479 --> 02:04:13,520
kind of thinking that does any other religion kind of

1911
02:04:14,039 --> 02:04:16,079
you know, how do they even answer the question of

1912
02:04:16,159 --> 02:04:18,680
the knowledge of God? For example, let's use the example

1913
02:04:18,760 --> 02:04:23,079
of Roman Catholics. I think that will be an easy example.

1914
02:04:24,479 --> 02:04:28,039
How can we even come to know God? If in

1915
02:04:28,039 --> 02:04:30,000
that sense I mean, we will answer, well, we can

1916
02:04:30,039 --> 02:04:33,600
contemplate his energies and they have actual existence, so we

1917
02:04:33,600 --> 02:04:36,840
can know about God that way. But you can't really

1918
02:04:37,079 --> 02:04:39,159
answer that question if you're a Roman Catholic or even

1919
02:04:39,159 --> 02:04:43,520
a Protestant, and really even if you're in a story

1920
02:04:43,640 --> 02:04:46,880
or non calcedonia to be honest, and you can extend

1921
02:04:46,880 --> 02:04:51,039
this to other religions. So my kind of train of

1922
02:04:51,199 --> 02:04:53,840
thought is like, are there any religions that kind of

1923
02:04:53,880 --> 02:04:56,079
answered try to answer this question or what do they

1924
02:04:56,119 --> 02:04:57,520
even answer this question with it?

1925
02:04:57,560 --> 02:05:00,600
Speaker 2: Because I feel like this is kind of a no.

1926
02:05:00,680 --> 02:05:03,600
Speaker 17: I think the question that it is not tackled enough

1927
02:05:03,680 --> 02:05:05,479
by like these people.

1928
02:05:05,600 --> 02:05:09,279
Speaker 1: I think, right, So you can take the critique of

1929
02:05:09,439 --> 02:05:13,239
absolute divine simplicity and apply it to epistemology. And in

1930
02:05:13,439 --> 02:05:18,399
the Roman Catholic system, their doctrine of knowledge is analogia entis.

1931
02:05:19,960 --> 02:05:24,199
The Protestant system, their epistemology will be analogia fe dae,

1932
02:05:24,800 --> 02:05:28,159
so they'll say analogy of faith, and ultimately their principle

1933
02:05:28,159 --> 02:05:30,520
of pistemology is the Bible of revelation. They'll say that,

1934
02:05:30,600 --> 02:05:32,920
really the only thing that we have certitude about is

1935
02:05:32,920 --> 02:05:36,520
the Bible. They're inconsistent because they actually believe that the

1936
02:05:36,560 --> 02:05:39,439
effects of sin, if they're a Calvinist, for example, the

1937
02:05:39,439 --> 02:05:42,840
noedic effects of sin are such that even after you're degenerated,

1938
02:05:42,840 --> 02:05:45,920
you can't interpret the scriptures right. So they don't even

1939
02:05:45,920 --> 02:05:48,199
get to God either. And even if they did believe

1940
02:05:48,279 --> 02:05:50,680
you could have the direct knowledge of God, it's still

1941
02:05:50,720 --> 02:05:54,600
created grace for the Protestant m Catholic has the same

1942
02:05:54,640 --> 02:05:57,720
problem because it's just created effects. That's all there. Their

1943
02:05:58,159 --> 02:06:01,079
analogia Inth this is still just created effects. So it

1944
02:06:01,079 --> 02:06:04,359
doesn't actually work as a principle of pistemology. Although a

1945
02:06:04,439 --> 02:06:07,560
Quinas tries to answer this. I just read this in

1946
02:06:07,560 --> 02:06:10,960
whipple By, and I was right because I've said this

1947
02:06:11,000 --> 02:06:14,520
all along. But just another Thomas scholar who backs this

1948
02:06:14,680 --> 02:06:19,640
up in an entire chapter. They believe that they can

1949
02:06:19,680 --> 02:06:26,279
ground even natural knowledge in the divine ideas. So the

1950
02:06:26,399 --> 02:06:28,680
closest that any of these people can come is a

1951
02:06:28,760 --> 02:06:33,960
kind of divine conceptualism where they're grounding either the essences

1952
02:06:34,000 --> 02:06:38,399
of creatures or the ideas of things in God, which

1953
02:06:38,520 --> 02:06:42,800
we agree with that that's Maximus's logi doctrine is doing that,

1954
02:06:43,479 --> 02:06:46,840
but they put them in the essence of God across

1955
02:06:46,880 --> 02:06:48,720
the board, so and you don't know the essence of God,

1956
02:06:48,720 --> 02:06:51,920
so it does nothing. It doesn't help you to have

1957
02:06:51,960 --> 02:06:55,720
a form of divine conceptualism for your epistemology that locates

1958
02:06:55,760 --> 02:06:58,319
the ideas and the thing that you can't know. It's

1959
02:06:58,399 --> 02:07:00,479
so dumb I.

1960
02:07:00,359 --> 02:07:04,159
Speaker 17: Mean you're going to have divine conceptionism, for example, you're

1961
02:07:04,159 --> 02:07:07,720
going to have conceptions about God. Well they kind of

1962
02:07:07,840 --> 02:07:10,640
have to be actual in real as well. They can't

1963
02:07:10,680 --> 02:07:14,039
just be kind of like creations of the mind or

1964
02:07:14,079 --> 02:07:18,039
even an analysis of something created, because how can you

1965
02:07:18,399 --> 02:07:23,079
at all even like get to something created to uncreated

1966
02:07:23,159 --> 02:07:25,920
verus in our system.

1967
02:07:25,560 --> 02:07:26,640
Speaker 2: We can contemplate.

1968
02:07:27,279 --> 02:07:30,199
Speaker 17: I mean, this is why it connects to prayer hesychasm

1969
02:07:30,279 --> 02:07:30,640
as well.

1970
02:07:30,680 --> 02:07:34,000
Speaker 2: And I think I'm very sure. I think your Palamas.

1971
02:07:33,760 --> 02:07:37,439
Speaker 17: Starts by saying, you know, like his defense on essensity

1972
02:07:37,560 --> 02:07:39,119
distinction is defending hesechasm.

1973
02:07:39,119 --> 02:07:41,640
Speaker 2: And I think that's kind of connects to that.

1974
02:07:41,760 --> 02:07:44,359
Speaker 17: Is that, like it's part of the contemplation of God

1975
02:07:44,439 --> 02:07:48,319
and what we contemplated. We're not contemplating created you know,

1976
02:07:48,399 --> 02:07:52,399
substances or effects or something, but rather actual you know,

1977
02:07:52,920 --> 02:07:58,000
same maxims with the things around God. And like what

1978
02:07:58,039 --> 02:08:01,119
I'm getting at is that and yeah, you answered the

1979
02:08:01,199 --> 02:08:03,319
question regards to yeah, like this is That's how they

1980
02:08:03,319 --> 02:08:05,840
try to answer. But it seems to me the center

1981
02:08:05,880 --> 02:08:09,840
of the problem. There's no bridge between the created and

1982
02:08:09,960 --> 02:08:14,479
not created. For like any other religious system.

1983
02:08:13,720 --> 02:08:15,920
Speaker 1: Does it seem like no, there's not. That's one of

1984
02:08:15,920 --> 02:08:18,840
the problems of ads is the epistemology. You can do

1985
02:08:18,920 --> 02:08:24,119
an uh, an epistemological critique of any simplicity religion or doctrine.

1986
02:08:24,840 --> 02:08:28,520
Speaker 17: Yeah, and in a way, yeah, I think I mean,

1987
02:08:28,960 --> 02:08:32,439
if you think about the body and soul analogy because

1988
02:08:32,479 --> 02:08:35,479
the soul is immaterial and the faculty like the mind

1989
02:08:35,600 --> 02:08:39,640
or I think one could one argue that that's already

1990
02:08:40,199 --> 02:08:40,840
kind of like a.

1991
02:08:42,600 --> 02:08:45,079
Speaker 2: A mini bridge in that sense.

1992
02:08:45,159 --> 02:08:47,680
Speaker 17: I think you used the term, what was it, the

1993
02:08:47,720 --> 02:08:50,760
mind is an icon of God's minds gem in mind?

1994
02:08:51,000 --> 02:08:52,760
Was did you say something like that? I think in

1995
02:08:52,800 --> 02:08:55,640
your previous videos or I remember something like that.

1996
02:08:55,840 --> 02:08:58,199
Speaker 1: That's that's yeah, the Father speak that way.

1997
02:08:59,279 --> 02:09:01,520
Speaker 17: Yeah, So I mean and will that I can't be

1998
02:09:01,760 --> 02:09:06,399
the mind's immateriality.

1999
02:09:07,119 --> 02:09:13,359
Speaker 1: Well, the mind as a attribute or faculty is immaterial, yes,

2000
02:09:14,000 --> 02:09:14,960
uh And.

2001
02:09:18,239 --> 02:09:19,079
Speaker 3: I'm getting lost there.

2002
02:09:19,159 --> 02:09:22,239
Speaker 1: So the so the fact that we have a mind

2003
02:09:22,840 --> 02:09:28,039
that's immaterial and the relationship between body and soul, are

2004
02:09:28,039 --> 02:09:30,000
you trying to are you trying to make an analogy

2005
02:09:30,039 --> 02:09:33,239
to the way that God interacts with the world because

2006
02:09:33,279 --> 02:09:34,760
he's immaterial? Is that ever're saying.

2007
02:09:35,880 --> 02:09:38,479
Speaker 17: I'm basically trying to say, like just how just like

2008
02:09:38,600 --> 02:09:42,159
how something immaterial the soul and the body can unite

2009
02:09:42,439 --> 02:09:45,680
right and immaterial and material thing is it can? Can't

2010
02:09:45,720 --> 02:09:48,279
that also be an analogy of kind of how God

2011
02:09:48,319 --> 02:09:52,119
can interact with the material world immaterial.

2012
02:09:51,760 --> 02:09:55,359
Speaker 1: Yes, because the model is the same for the interpenetration

2013
02:09:56,439 --> 02:09:59,000
and yet distinction in body and soul. That's applied to

2014
02:09:59,039 --> 02:10:02,680
the interpenetration and of the two energies in Christ because

2015
02:10:02,720 --> 02:10:06,960
of the two natures interpenetrating and yet retaining their natural properties.

2016
02:10:07,359 --> 02:10:09,600
Speaker 3: And that's the that's also the model for how God

2017
02:10:09,640 --> 02:10:10,359
relates to the world.

2018
02:10:10,680 --> 02:10:12,439
Speaker 2: Yes, mm hmm.

2019
02:10:13,840 --> 02:10:17,560
Speaker 1: That's why Maximus can say that the whole creation is

2020
02:10:17,560 --> 02:10:18,800
a kind of garment.

2021
02:10:18,600 --> 02:10:19,760
Speaker 3: That the Logos wears.

2022
02:10:21,000 --> 02:10:24,760
Speaker 1: He speaks of the three embodiments of the Logos.

2023
02:10:25,159 --> 02:10:25,600
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

2024
02:10:27,079 --> 02:10:29,199
Speaker 17: So I guess I mean it's like a health question,

2025
02:10:29,359 --> 02:10:34,119
health like about like even outside of Christianity, like for example,

2026
02:10:35,119 --> 02:10:38,399
like Islam, like do you know or anyone else maybe

2027
02:10:38,520 --> 02:10:40,720
like know, like how they will try to answer this

2028
02:10:40,840 --> 02:10:44,159
question because it seems like there really is no answer

2029
02:10:44,199 --> 02:10:44,880
in the system.

2030
02:10:44,960 --> 02:10:48,439
Speaker 1: Is that I'm looking into every every Muslim that I've

2031
02:10:48,479 --> 02:10:50,920
debated an apologists that I bring this issue up with

2032
02:10:51,880 --> 02:10:56,560
doesn't answer it because of their boxed in doctrine of God,

2033
02:10:57,680 --> 02:11:03,359
their radical dissimilarity of creep to God. It doesn't allow

2034
02:11:03,439 --> 02:11:04,600
for there to be a bridge.

2035
02:11:05,399 --> 02:11:08,720
Speaker 12: Yeah, And the final question is what I'm that kind

2036
02:11:08,720 --> 02:11:11,479
of apex point of what I'm getting at full the

2037
02:11:11,720 --> 02:11:17,159
argument that your religion is kind of atheistic because you

2038
02:11:17,239 --> 02:11:20,439
cannot account for knowledge of God, because you cannot account

2039
02:11:20,560 --> 02:11:23,359
for contemplation of the uncreated.

2040
02:11:23,920 --> 02:11:28,199
Speaker 17: Can this argument apply to any religion except for Orthodoxy? Basically,

2041
02:11:28,359 --> 02:11:30,359
can you kind of use this as a tag argument?

2042
02:11:30,800 --> 02:11:32,760
Maybe you have used it and I just didn't, like

2043
02:11:32,880 --> 02:11:33,880
don't remember.

2044
02:11:33,600 --> 02:11:35,920
Speaker 3: But like no, I brought it up before as Yeah,

2045
02:11:35,920 --> 02:11:36,520
you can use this.

2046
02:11:36,600 --> 02:11:39,479
Speaker 1: In fact, I have a critique of temas epistemology where

2047
02:11:39,520 --> 02:11:43,960
I critique this very point from about eight years ago. Yeah,

2048
02:11:44,199 --> 02:11:45,840
I think you can use you can you can do

2049
02:11:45,960 --> 02:11:48,880
a type of tag this way, where you're saying that

2050
02:11:48,960 --> 02:11:53,600
if you don't have the right distinctions between nature, will, energy, logi,

2051
02:11:53,760 --> 02:12:00,680
et cetera, you don't have a way to actually ground epismology. So,

2052
02:12:00,800 --> 02:12:03,920
for example, the Wiemlane Craig believes in a form of

2053
02:12:03,960 --> 02:12:07,960
divine conceptualism, so he thinks that objects in the world

2054
02:12:07,960 --> 02:12:10,880
the way that we know them is because they're grounded

2055
02:12:10,960 --> 02:12:14,439
ultimately in God. Now we would agree with that, but

2056
02:12:14,960 --> 02:12:17,039
what do you mean by grounded in God? And how

2057
02:12:17,079 --> 02:12:20,520
does that actually work? Well, he doesn't have a Logi doctrine,

2058
02:12:20,640 --> 02:12:23,640
so he thinks the essences of creatures are the ideas,

2059
02:12:23,760 --> 02:12:28,439
or he would say, what's the idea? Is the essence

2060
02:12:28,439 --> 02:12:31,279
of a creature and it is the essence of God

2061
02:12:31,359 --> 02:12:33,800
or it's in the mind of God. Right, And we're

2062
02:12:33,840 --> 02:12:38,840
not identifying the logi or the idea with the essence

2063
02:12:38,840 --> 02:12:42,800
of a creature. Creatures have their own creaturely essence in

2064
02:12:42,840 --> 02:12:46,079
creatures that are patterned on Logi. So in other words,

2065
02:12:46,079 --> 02:12:50,840
they collapse the creaturely essence into the essence of God.

2066
02:12:51,439 --> 02:12:54,000
Speaker 3: And that's why that doesn't work. So you can't have

2067
02:12:54,039 --> 02:12:55,239
a you can't have.

2068
02:12:55,199 --> 02:13:00,000
Speaker 1: Divine conceptualism as a form of epistemology without the logi doctrine.

2069
02:13:00,000 --> 02:13:04,520
Speaker 3: That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, does that make sense?

2070
02:13:04,680 --> 02:13:05,319
Speaker 1: Is that confusing?

2071
02:13:05,640 --> 02:13:07,039
Speaker 2: That absolutely makes sense.

2072
02:13:07,119 --> 02:13:09,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I've been trying to apply I've been

2073
02:13:10,000 --> 02:13:14,239
trying to apply Maximus to apologetics.

2074
02:13:14,720 --> 02:13:15,159
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

2075
02:13:16,279 --> 02:13:18,479
Speaker 17: And like, as a final note to the viewers and

2076
02:13:18,479 --> 02:13:19,319
and all that is that.

2077
02:13:19,399 --> 02:13:20,640
Speaker 2: I think it's very interesting.

2078
02:13:20,960 --> 02:13:24,560
Speaker 17: I would definitely recommend them checking out the Cappadocians debate

2079
02:13:24,640 --> 02:13:26,880
against you Know meis because actually a lot of this

2080
02:13:26,960 --> 02:13:29,960
is kind of repeated there, and a big part of

2081
02:13:29,960 --> 02:13:33,720
the debate that is, like I have not seen academics

2082
02:13:33,800 --> 02:13:36,600
talk about this at all, Like they talk about all

2083
02:13:36,640 --> 02:13:38,720
sorts of boring nonsense, but they don't talk about this.

2084
02:13:38,840 --> 02:13:40,800
It's about knowledge of God. I mean, that's a big

2085
02:13:40,840 --> 02:13:44,000
team in their debate, Like you know because that's why

2086
02:13:44,039 --> 02:13:46,760
you know Me says we know God's essence one, because

2087
02:13:46,800 --> 02:13:49,720
that's like, why will he say something so stupid? Well,

2088
02:13:50,319 --> 02:13:53,199
it's because for him, there's no other way, because he

2089
02:13:53,479 --> 02:13:58,079
has to reject distinction, right, And the point is that, really,

2090
02:13:58,119 --> 02:14:02,239
you know Me says, let's say, you know what I

2091
02:14:02,239 --> 02:14:06,800
mean his response is what the response of the other

2092
02:14:06,840 --> 02:14:10,640
world's religions in general, right, as I will say, Islam

2093
02:14:11,079 --> 02:14:15,960
are he is Protestants and non Casadonians I don't, and

2094
02:14:16,399 --> 02:14:18,600
Buddhist him Douce and all that kind of stuff.

2095
02:14:18,800 --> 02:14:21,199
Speaker 2: So, yeah, thanks for answering my questions that differently.

2096
02:14:22,720 --> 02:14:24,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, this relates back to the point that I always

2097
02:14:24,880 --> 02:14:29,800
make about Thomism the word I can't find my Thomas notes.

2098
02:14:29,920 --> 02:14:34,960
But you can't say, uh, we only know what God is.

2099
02:14:36,199 --> 02:14:38,439
We don't know what what God is, but we know

2100
02:14:38,560 --> 02:14:40,720
that he is. And then turn around and say and

2101
02:14:40,760 --> 02:14:44,840
we know what we know what he is? Doesn't work. Yeah,

2102
02:14:44,960 --> 02:14:47,479
here it is, here's my notes.

2103
02:14:49,319 --> 02:14:51,960
Speaker 17: We would that even refer to if it refers to essence,

2104
02:14:52,000 --> 02:14:54,279
then like congratulations, you are.

2105
02:14:54,239 --> 02:14:54,680
Speaker 2: You know him?

2106
02:14:54,680 --> 02:14:59,039
Speaker 1: Mean, yeah, we know that God is not what he is. Okay,

2107
02:14:59,159 --> 02:15:02,880
these are the first two points of temism. But Thomas

2108
02:15:03,039 --> 02:15:06,760
and the Thomas also say God's essence is identical to

2109
02:15:06,800 --> 02:15:07,439
his existence.

2110
02:15:08,399 --> 02:15:09,479
Speaker 3: You know his existence.

2111
02:15:09,960 --> 02:15:12,840
Speaker 1: His essence is identical to his existence. We don't know

2112
02:15:12,920 --> 02:15:15,800
his essence, then you don't know his existence because you

2113
02:15:15,920 --> 02:15:16,600
just equated him.

2114
02:15:17,399 --> 02:15:21,079
Speaker 17: Yeah, pretty much, or either that the only really good

2115
02:15:21,119 --> 02:15:23,039
answer you can give, which is not a good answer,

2116
02:15:23,079 --> 02:15:25,279
but the only consistent is probably you will hit it

2117
02:15:25,399 --> 02:15:30,359
that existence we know of is a created thing, which, yeah,

2118
02:15:30,359 --> 02:15:33,600
but then you don't know God's exist you know, a

2119
02:15:33,680 --> 02:15:34,399
created version.

2120
02:15:34,680 --> 02:15:38,239
Speaker 2: Rights to get around this and which I talked about

2121
02:15:38,279 --> 02:15:42,159
this and about the analogical questions to article one, remember

2122
02:15:43,000 --> 02:15:44,720
that we're able to find the problems with.

2123
02:15:47,239 --> 02:15:48,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the Whipple.

2124
02:15:48,640 --> 02:15:52,760
Speaker 1: The Whipple chapters on this, and it's about participation.

2125
02:15:53,920 --> 02:15:55,279
Speaker 2: So for a.

2126
02:15:55,319 --> 02:15:57,479
Speaker 1: Quarticle two, forgive me.

2127
02:15:57,479 --> 02:15:58,680
Speaker 2: A question to article two.

2128
02:15:59,720 --> 02:16:01,159
Speaker 3: So the on the on the chapter on the one

2129
02:16:01,159 --> 02:16:02,399
of the Many, and aquitas in.

2130
02:16:02,359 --> 02:16:07,039
Speaker 1: Whipple, it's about how is their participation in God on

2131
02:16:07,079 --> 02:16:10,199
the part of creatures. And if you ever talk to Thomas,

2132
02:16:10,239 --> 02:16:13,199
they'll try to persuade you. Oh bro, we're just saying

2133
02:16:13,239 --> 02:16:16,039
the same thing. We're all on the same team. Look,

2134
02:16:16,079 --> 02:16:19,399
you Orthodox believe in participation, so do we. And then

2135
02:16:19,399 --> 02:16:23,920
when Aquinas goes to explain what it is, it's participation

2136
02:16:24,399 --> 02:16:30,399
by likeness, not actual metaphysical participation. That can't happen, right,

2137
02:16:31,000 --> 02:16:35,600
Creatures don't metaphysically participate in God in the sense of

2138
02:16:35,600 --> 02:16:41,959
partaking of God. They partake of God by likeness, by similarity,

2139
02:16:42,040 --> 02:16:46,920
similitude and a loggia. And the other explanation is by

2140
02:16:46,959 --> 02:16:49,520
the fact that the divine ideas that are the patterns

2141
02:16:49,520 --> 02:16:54,479
of creatures are patterned on the divine essence. But there's

2142
02:16:54,479 --> 02:17:00,319
not a metaphysical participation in God himself. It's participation by lifekeness.

2143
02:17:00,319 --> 02:17:01,639
So it's not really participation.

2144
02:17:02,159 --> 02:17:03,159
Speaker 3: That's the point.

2145
02:17:05,200 --> 02:17:09,079
Speaker 1: By the way Aquinas does not believe that universals have

2146
02:17:09,159 --> 02:17:10,200
a real existence.

2147
02:17:13,680 --> 02:17:15,440
Speaker 2: It's got like Obama saying to do that.

2148
02:17:15,520 --> 02:17:15,799
Speaker 6: I can't.

2149
02:17:17,239 --> 02:17:21,200
Speaker 3: By the way, Thomas, aquin It doesn't believe in the

2150
02:17:21,399 --> 02:17:22,719
universes have a real existence.

2151
02:17:23,280 --> 02:17:26,840
Speaker 1: Uh can you believe this, folks? Can you believe this book?

2152
02:17:27,920 --> 02:17:31,360
Speaker 2: Folks? Can you believe this is oak? Yeah?

2153
02:17:31,399 --> 02:17:33,719
Speaker 1: So anyway, I mean here's like, you know, top Thomas

2154
02:17:33,719 --> 02:17:36,360
saying everything I've said, what if we.

2155
02:17:36,360 --> 02:17:41,120
Speaker 2: Just did all our like apolitics and like past precedence.

2156
02:17:41,319 --> 02:17:48,000
Speaker 18: Quiet has tear down this wall. You can have peace

2157
02:17:48,120 --> 02:17:51,479
right now, Thomas, tear down this wall.

2158
02:17:52,239 --> 02:17:54,040
Speaker 1: And I forgot by the way, that you can read this.

2159
02:17:54,239 --> 02:17:56,600
I read the Cambridge Companions of Quintus years ago. It's

2160
02:17:56,600 --> 02:17:59,319
got Norman Kretzman in it. I mean it's it's this

2161
02:17:59,360 --> 02:18:02,719
is not a this has recognized. It has eleanor Stomp,

2162
02:18:02,719 --> 02:18:05,239
it has Norman Kretzman. And there's a whole chapter on

2163
02:18:05,280 --> 02:18:08,559
aquinas as epistemology, which, David, you would find that interesting

2164
02:18:08,639 --> 02:18:11,079
because it goes into some of what you're talking about.

2165
02:18:11,719 --> 02:18:18,239
Aquinus's theory of knowledge, Arizona quits questions metaphysics by Whipple

2166
02:18:18,280 --> 02:18:23,479
that I just pointed out. And yes, these points are

2167
02:18:23,520 --> 02:18:27,120
brought up. I mean the essay that I wrote several

2168
02:18:27,200 --> 02:18:30,639
years ago. I just realized that if Thomas believes that

2169
02:18:30,840 --> 02:18:35,719
natural knowledge is also based on the divine ideas, then

2170
02:18:37,239 --> 02:18:41,440
you can't Then this is going to be in conflict

2171
02:18:41,479 --> 02:18:47,239
with his distinction between natural and supernatural knowledge, because it's

2172
02:18:47,280 --> 02:18:52,280
both are grounded in the divine ideas, but the divine

2173
02:18:52,319 --> 02:18:55,440
ideas are the Divine essence. There's no similarity between the

2174
02:18:55,479 --> 02:19:02,120
divine essence and creatures because they're fundamentally one. If the

2175
02:19:02,200 --> 02:19:05,399
distinctions in the Divine essence are not real distinctions, then

2176
02:19:05,479 --> 02:19:08,879
creatures based on those patterns are not really distinct.

2177
02:19:09,600 --> 02:19:10,639
Speaker 3: We're all just one bro.

2178
02:19:12,840 --> 02:19:14,920
Speaker 1: So it doesn't work as a as a way to

2179
02:19:15,000 --> 02:19:19,479
ground epistemologies. I'm trying to say, if you collapse the

2180
02:19:19,479 --> 02:19:21,959
divine ideas into the Divine essence, then this is not

2181
02:19:22,000 --> 02:19:25,879
going to function as a way to have distinctions.

2182
02:19:25,200 --> 02:19:25,760
Speaker 2: In the world.

2183
02:19:26,000 --> 02:19:27,639
Speaker 1: It's not going to work for the one the many

2184
02:19:27,680 --> 02:19:30,559
problem because the essence of God is not really distinct.

2185
02:19:30,840 --> 02:19:35,239
Creatures are really distinct from one another. I'm not you right,

2186
02:19:35,639 --> 02:19:39,719
We're actually different. But if we're based on the essence

2187
02:19:39,760 --> 02:19:41,959
of God and there's no real distinctions in the essence

2188
02:19:42,000 --> 02:19:45,079
of God. Then how is there real distinctions in the creatures.

2189
02:19:45,520 --> 02:19:49,520
There's not multiple creatures have multiplicity. The essence of God

2190
02:19:49,559 --> 02:19:53,440
does not have multiplicity, and they'll always come back with well,

2191
02:19:53,440 --> 02:19:56,399
but it's a distinction in terms of the multitude.

2192
02:19:55,840 --> 02:19:56,559
Speaker 3: Of the effects.

2193
02:19:57,200 --> 02:19:59,120
Speaker 1: No, we're not talking about cause and effect.

2194
02:19:59,200 --> 02:20:00,440
Speaker 3: I know what he said about that.

2195
02:20:00,520 --> 02:20:04,760
Speaker 1: We're talking about the ideas, the doctrine of divine ideas

2196
02:20:05,239 --> 02:20:08,639
that are identical to the divine essence. There's an idea

2197
02:20:08,680 --> 02:20:10,479
of me, there's an idea of you, there's an idea

2198
02:20:10,520 --> 02:20:14,559
of every creature. That's the grounding of the creatures that's

2199
02:20:14,639 --> 02:20:20,600
in the essence of God. It doesn't work, And Thomas

2200
02:20:20,639 --> 02:20:24,959
doesn't just ground supernatural knowledge in the divine ideas. Natural

2201
02:20:25,000 --> 02:20:28,000
knowledge itself is grounded in the divine ideas. That's how

2202
02:20:28,000 --> 02:20:29,879
crazy this is. But now, wait a minute, we don't

2203
02:20:29,879 --> 02:20:32,200
have any direct perception in this life of the essence

2204
02:20:32,200 --> 02:20:35,600
of God. Yeah, exactly, So how do you actually know

2205
02:20:35,680 --> 02:20:41,200
that the creatures are based on the divine essence? It

2206
02:20:41,239 --> 02:20:45,120
doesn't work because you've cut the human mind off from God.

2207
02:20:46,159 --> 02:20:48,559
You only know creative effects, so you never get back

2208
02:20:48,600 --> 02:20:52,840
to the divine essence. That's why this doesn't work. Does

2209
02:20:52,879 --> 02:20:53,920
that make sense what I'm saying?

2210
02:20:56,120 --> 02:21:05,399
Speaker 2: Actually no, it yeah, all right, you say for the

2211
02:21:05,479 --> 02:21:07,600
last two and a half hours has made any sense.

2212
02:21:07,639 --> 02:21:10,600
Speaker 1: But I've just come claiming along well, Emanuel for well,

2213
02:21:10,600 --> 02:21:13,559
Emmanuel for ten dollars, says I am afraid by supporting

2214
02:21:13,639 --> 02:21:15,799
the stream that I will not catch up to the videos.

2215
02:21:15,799 --> 02:21:17,719
By the way, I put a link to David's channel

2216
02:21:17,760 --> 02:21:20,120
in the chat, you can follow David the real medwide

2217
02:21:20,120 --> 02:21:24,719
as well. Tom Green for three dollars. Since life thrives

2218
02:21:24,719 --> 02:21:28,520
on death, if a cow eats grass and then a

2219
02:21:28,559 --> 02:21:33,399
cow dies and feeds the soil for the grass, how

2220
02:21:33,399 --> 02:21:34,280
would this work.

2221
02:21:34,079 --> 02:21:35,879
Speaker 3: In the Esketon? Well, there's no death in the.

2222
02:21:35,920 --> 02:21:40,959
Speaker 1: Esketon, right, So the whole creation is operating under a differating,

2223
02:21:41,079 --> 02:21:44,719
different operating system right than it would be in Eden

2224
02:21:44,840 --> 02:21:47,079
or in the Esketon. So that'll all be done away with.

2225
02:21:47,680 --> 02:21:49,760
Is this something we have no idea about? Well, we

2226
02:21:49,799 --> 02:21:52,760
have a general idea about it from Eden and from

2227
02:21:53,000 --> 02:21:56,159
what we're told about the resurrection, right, so we know

2228
02:21:56,200 --> 02:21:58,719
it'll be physical. We know we'll still have bodies, they'll

2229
02:21:58,760 --> 02:22:02,639
still be people. There's still be trees, you know, the world, universe,

2230
02:22:02,840 --> 02:22:06,440
et cetera. But there won't be death, So how exactly

2231
02:22:06,479 --> 02:22:09,159
all that works, I don't know. Tom Green three dollars, Jay,

2232
02:22:09,159 --> 02:22:11,600
do you reckon that? You can do a stream on

2233
02:22:11,959 --> 02:22:14,840
soul after death by Father Sara from Rose. Uh. Yeah,

2234
02:22:14,959 --> 02:22:16,760
I just haven't got around to it because it's such

2235
02:22:16,760 --> 02:22:20,479
a controversial, sort of annoying topic. Not the doctor itself

2236
02:22:20,520 --> 02:22:22,920
is not annoying, but the way people get all tripped

2237
02:22:23,000 --> 02:22:25,600
up on it's annoying to me. But I think David,

2238
02:22:25,639 --> 02:22:27,959
didn't you just do a toll House video by the way.

2239
02:22:28,399 --> 02:22:31,319
Speaker 17: Yes, I've done a video on that issue. It is

2240
02:22:31,360 --> 02:22:32,559
based on that book.

2241
02:22:33,159 --> 02:22:35,959
Speaker 1: You can go there's David's channel.

2242
02:22:36,000 --> 02:22:37,360
Speaker 3: Go watch David's video.

2243
02:22:37,479 --> 02:22:40,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was like one of your most recent Yeah right,

2244
02:22:40,879 --> 02:22:44,959
mm hmm, all right, that doesn't that doesn't cover the

2245
02:22:45,120 --> 02:22:45,680
entype book.

2246
02:22:45,840 --> 02:22:48,239
Speaker 17: It just but it does get a lot of quotes

2247
02:22:48,319 --> 02:22:51,719
and patristic citations from that book. But like there's a

2248
02:22:51,719 --> 02:22:54,159
lot of things that the book covers about, for example,

2249
02:22:54,200 --> 02:22:57,319
sickular afterlife experiences and how it really store to doc

2250
02:22:57,360 --> 02:22:59,000
see that I didn't really covered.

2251
02:22:59,079 --> 02:23:01,639
Speaker 2: So I mean, if Jay, so.

2252
02:23:01,680 --> 02:23:03,719
Speaker 17: If you're planning on I mean, I'm definitely down to

2253
02:23:03,799 --> 02:23:04,799
like join it.

2254
02:23:04,760 --> 02:23:06,799
Speaker 1: Because yeah, I just have to get around to it

2255
02:23:07,319 --> 02:23:09,520
down the road. We'll get to that eventually, Lord William.

2256
02:23:09,559 --> 02:23:11,040
Speaker 3: But all right, I'm getting tired.

2257
02:23:11,079 --> 02:23:15,280
Speaker 1: But everybody, thank you. I'm sorry this uh, I'm sorry

2258
02:23:15,280 --> 02:23:18,200
the stream was mistitled. We didn't actually talk about the book.

2259
02:23:18,239 --> 02:23:20,000
I'll talk about that book some other time and rename

2260
02:23:20,040 --> 02:23:23,319
the streams. I'll be sure to follow Father Deacon, follow Snack,

2261
02:23:23,799 --> 02:23:28,000
follow David real ed white h follow everybody in our

2262
02:23:28,639 --> 02:23:28,719
just