WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:16.120 Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Chittheads podcast. Today, 2 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:18.280 i'd like to share an interview with you that I 3 00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:21.559 initially live streamed on YouTube a couple of months ago. Now, 4 00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:26.640 if you haven't heard, Embodied Philosophy has its own YouTube channel. Actually, 5 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:29.440 we've had a channel for several years now, but only 6 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:32.560 recently started putting a bit more time and attention into it. 7 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:35.960 So I'm doing some live Chithhead's interviews on our YouTube channel. 8 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:39.799 I've also brought back one of Embodied Philosophy's original experiments 9 00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:42.920 called Chalkboard Yoga Studies, where I dive deep in each 10 00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:46.759 episode into a different topic of yoga philosophy. And we're 11 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:50.479 also releasing short twenty to thirty minute teachings that are 12 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:53.600 extracts from our course archive. So it's a great way 13 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.960 to get a bit of Embodied Philosophies education without having 14 00:00:57.000 --> 00:00:59.759 to pay anything since YouTube is free. So if you 15 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:02.439 want to join the party, just type Embodied Philosophy in 16 00:01:02.439 --> 00:01:05.719 the YouTube search bar and you should easily find us. 17 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:10.000 So today I'm delighted to introduce you to Samir Chopra, 18 00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:14.519 a philosophical counselor and professor emeritus of philosophy at Brooklyn 19 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:17.760 College and the Graduate Center of the City University of 20 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:20.760 New York. I talked to Samir about ideas from his 21 00:01:20.840 --> 00:01:25.959 recent book, Anxiety, A Philosophical Guide. I ran into Samir 22 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:29.280 by happenstance while I was in Boulder, Colorado, in April 23 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:31.959 this year. I was there doing a sequence of guided 24 00:01:31.959 --> 00:01:36.599 psychedelic psychotherapy sessions at the Center for Medicinal Mindfulness. In 25 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:39.359 between sessions, I went to the Boulder bookstore and saw 26 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:42.239 that there was a discussion happening about Anxiety from a 27 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:46.519 philosophical perspective. Samir was being interviewed at the bookstore about 28 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:49.519 his new book, which we're talking about today. I had 29 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:51.120 a hunch this might be a good candidate for a 30 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:53.319 Chithhead's interview, so I bought the book, paid the small 31 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:56.159 attendance fee, and sat down in the audience for the 32 00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:59.480 interview with Samir. And I'm really happy I did. There's 33 00:01:59.480 --> 00:02:02.439 a lot in Samir's beautifully written book that resonated with me. 34 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:06.719 For example, Samir approaches philosophy not merely as a hyper 35 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:10.879 intellectualized academic practice, but rather as a form of therapy. 36 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:13.280 Another thing I loved about the book is the way 37 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:16.159 in which Samir engages with a number of different traditions 38 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:20.039 without attempting to argue about which one is the best. Instead, 39 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:23.400 he takes a pluralistic approach, assuming that we can learn 40 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:26.840 something helpful and therapeutic about anxiety when we look at 41 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:31.080 different traditions. In that spirit, he explores anxiety from the 42 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:36.360 perspective of the existentialists, psychoanalysis, and critical theory, and then 43 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:39.840 he explores an important understanding we get about anxiety from 44 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:44.039 the Buddhists. As someone who studied Western philosophy before I 45 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:47.120 became a student of Indian and Yoga traditions, I found 46 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:50.960 it extremely refreshing to see someone thinking cross culturally and 47 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:54.400 cross traditionally. It also seems to be a perfect application 48 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:58.120 of the principle of Una contevada. The Jane principle of 49 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:02.560 many sidedness. Prince, which we explored with Tree Nahata a 50 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:05.560 couple of episodes ago, teaches that we get a greater 51 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:09.680 grasp of the truth not by dogmatically asserting the dominance 52 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:13.960 of one truth, but by bringing together multiple truths. All 53 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.400 philosophical systems are partially true, and we don't get to 54 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:21.000 truth by rejecting forms of truth that we think aren't compatible. 55 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:24.719 We get to truth by bringing many truths into conversation. 56 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:29.000 So this reflects, I think, a fundamental principle behind the 57 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:32.639 work that we do at embodied philosophy. That philosophy, no 58 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:35.840 matter where it's from, whether it derives from India, China, Africa, 59 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:39.680 the Americas, Europe, or elsewhere, whether it's from ancient times 60 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:43.280 or modern times, has something to teach us. Each tradition 61 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:48.560 can illuminate a unique dimension of understanding in my experience. 62 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:52.080 There's another aspect to this, something also happens to the 63 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:56.639 body when we inhabit new knowledges, new philosophies. Each tradition 64 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:01.280 corresponds to a unique kind of somatic quality, inspired by 65 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:06.439 its ideas and embodied through its contemplative practices. By discovering 66 00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:10.800 a greater range of somatic or contemplative possibilities within ourselves, 67 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:15.400 we discover a greater freedom within. As a result, what 68 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:19.839 once may have been a reactive disposition transforms into something 69 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:26.120 more flexible. Within that flexibility, sometimes anxiety's potency can begin 70 00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:31.120 to feel less sinister. So studying different traditions isn't then 71 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:36.399 just an intellectual exercise grounded in academic curiosity. At least 72 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:39.519 it isn't that alone. It can also shift the way 73 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:42.720 you relate to personal challenges, challenges that you may have 74 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:48.360 perceived differently before your adventure with philosophy. So obviously I 75 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:51.319 highly recommend Simir's book for anyone who is looking for 76 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:55.879 some philosophical perspectives on anxiety. If you feel like philosophy 77 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:59.040 couldn't possibly help with your anxiety. Samir really is an 78 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:03.839 excellent advocate for pointing out how philosophy might help. But 79 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:06.120 this book is more than just a review of different 80 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:09.240 traditions and their perspectives on anxiety. It is also a 81 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:13.120 deeply personal and intimate glimpse into the life of someone, 82 00:05:13.399 --> 00:05:16.879 namely Samir, who has been able to understand his anxiety 83 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:21.360 more through a long process of exploration. I found reading 84 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:24.759 his book very comforting and really a great example in 85 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:29.079 demonstrating how philosophy can have a deep therapeutic impact on 86 00:05:29.079 --> 00:05:32.560 one's life. Before we get into the episode, I want 87 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:34.759 to talk about a very special new program that we're 88 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:39.399 launching at Embodied Philosophy called Sodena School. Sodena School is 89 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:42.519 a year long program in which we'll explore the philosophies 90 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:45.959 and spiritual technologies of the yoga tradition. In the first 91 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:50.160 eight week Sodna, which begins on October twenty ninth, we'll 92 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:53.040 be exploring the entire range of traditions that fall under 93 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:56.279 that general category of yoga philosophy. We'll talk about the 94 00:05:56.360 --> 00:06:00.319 Vedic roots, the Upunishads, the Yoga sutras, and Bagavadgita. We'll 95 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:04.600 discover the distinction between dualistic and non dualistic traditions Shaivashakta, 96 00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:08.839 Tantra and Weishna Abakhdi, Buddhist influences on yoga, as well 97 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:12.279 as of course modern applications of these various ancient traditions. 98 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:16.399 You can enroll in that as its own unique standalone 99 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:18.920 experience as at single Sodna this fall, or you can 100 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:22.319 also enroll in the entire year of Sadna school. So 101 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:24.519 I'll tell you a little bit about what's coming. In 102 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:27.480 the second Sodna, starting in January, we'll be exploring the 103 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:31.639 recognition school of philosophy from Kashmir Shaivism. In the spring, 104 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:35.279 we'll be looking at rasa theory and esthetics and discover 105 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:39.319 how central the imagination is to contemplative study and practice. 106 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:42.040 Then in the summer we'll meet for a seven day 107 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:46.680 virtual retreat and explore the Kundalini Shakti and different yogic 108 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.800 templates of embodiment. We're going to be exploring these seven 109 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:54.199 days really in the spirit of a retreat. So I'll 110 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:57.319 be inviting you over that seventy period to create the 111 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:02.319 container to go very deep in meditative pacte. In addition 112 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:04.480 to our periods of study and practice throughout the year, 113 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:07.839 these these eight weeks Sodena's that happened three times a year. 114 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.800 In this seven day retreat, there will also be ongoing 115 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:15.519 occasional weekend workshops on topics such as building an altar, 116 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:19.040 the philosophy of tontic images and iconography, how to build 117 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:22.319 a home contemplative practice and sustain that practice, and other 118 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:26.000 topics that relate to the integration of contemplative teachings into 119 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:29.680 our everyday lives. So this is a comprehensive course of 120 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:32.959 study that can be done in this full twenty twenty 121 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:35.279 four to twenty twenty five experience. It can also be 122 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:37.319 done one Sodna at a time if you don't want 123 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:39.879 to make that year long commitment, but if you choose 124 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:42.319 to join Sodna School, it also can ladder up to 125 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:45.399 a full yoga teacher training the yoga teacher training portion 126 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:49.480 where you would learn asanas and physiology and teaching methodology 127 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:53.519 and pedagogy. All of that begins in January, and all 128 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:56.680 of that information is also on the Sudna School landing page. 129 00:07:57.120 --> 00:07:59.560 And while I'll be your primary teacher and facilitator for 130 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:02.519 Soudenna School, will be joined by folks like Tis Little, 131 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:07.040 Tova Olsen, and other past faculty members of Embodied Philosophy. 132 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:09.839 There's a lot more information on the landing page, which 133 00:08:09.879 --> 00:08:12.399 of course you can find by going to Embodied philosophy 134 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:15.120 dot com. Just head head there and you'll see a 135 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:17.639 banner for Saddnaw School at the top of the page. 136 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:21.160 As a thank you for being a Chitthead's listener, you 137 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:25.360 can use the coupon code Chittheads two fifty so all 138 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:29.000 caps C H I, T H E A D S 139 00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:32.159 two five zero to get a significant two hundred and 140 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:35.559 fifty dollars discount off the tuition cost. If you're not 141 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:38.240 sure you can commit to the entire year, but you 142 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:41.519 are interested in at least trying, you can just join 143 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:44.440 us on one of the available payment plans, and if 144 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:46.600 you need to let go of that commitment. You can 145 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:50.399 release that commitment with the thirty day notice again. To 146 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:53.080 learn more about the Sadnaw School or the whole Yoga 147 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:55.600 teacher training curriculum that Soadnaw School is also a part of, 148 00:08:55.879 --> 00:08:58.519 head to Embodied Philosophy dot com and click on the 149 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:00.600 banner at the top of the home page which will 150 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:04.759 take you to the Somna School landing page. So, without 151 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:07.720 any further ado, let's go ahead and get into today's 152 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:29.960 interview with Samirraria, Thomas Omagalty Coria, richeal Coma, Shunty Shunty Shy. 153 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:36.039 Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Chitheads Podcast and 154 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:39.879 this very special edition of the Chiheads Podcast. Normally we 155 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:43.879 record these behind closed doors as it were, but today 156 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:47.159 I thought it would be lovely to interview Samir Chopra 157 00:09:47.559 --> 00:09:53.840 about his book Anxiety, Anxiety a Philosophical Guide. So Hello, Samir, 158 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:55.919 thank you so much for joining me today. 159 00:09:56.279 --> 00:09:58.600 Thanks very much for having me on. Jacob, it's great 160 00:09:58.600 --> 00:09:59.039 to be here. 161 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:02.720 It's a real pleasure to get to meet you and 162 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:04.879 to talk to you about your book. I actually saw 163 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:08.320 you in person once before. It's a little bit different 164 00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:11.320 than usual. Usually I discover. You know folks that I 165 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:15.360 interview through various kinds of online research. But I was 166 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:20.440 actually in Boulder, Colorado, in this past April, actually on 167 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:24.039 a retreat to cope with some of my own anxiety symptoms. 168 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:28.080 I was doing a psychedelic therapy retreat at the Center 169 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:32.759 for Medicinal Mindfulness. I think I had done maybe two 170 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:37.240 psilocybin journeys when I had made my way into downtown 171 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:40.480 Boulder gone to the I think it's the Bolder Bookstore. 172 00:10:40.519 --> 00:10:44.200 Is that what it is? Such bookstore, wonderful bookstore. Oh 173 00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:47.039 my gosh, like my kind of bookstore, great mixture of 174 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:51.600 sort of you know, traditional bookstore meets spirituality and everything 175 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:54.480 in between. Such an amazing bookstore. But I got there 176 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:58.440 maybe ten minutes before your interview, which I didn't know 177 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:00.399 anything about. I saw that they were having this event, 178 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:04.200 and I saw your book, and I mean the cover 179 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:09.600 itself is very attractive, perfect kind of like seventies sort 180 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:13.879 of seemingly retrofusion, very much my aesthetic. So I saw 181 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:18.240 the book, I also felt anxiety Philosophers. And then I 182 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:21.240 also noticed, by leafing through the book that you explored 183 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:24.759 anxiety from a number of different perspectives number of different traditions, 184 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:29.519 including Western ones and ones from contemplative traditions, particularly Buddhism, 185 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:32.720 and so it was right up my alley, so I 186 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:36.000 decided to join for that interview. It was a wonderful conversation, 187 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:38.720 and I knew after picking up the book that I 188 00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:41.120 had to get you on the podcast. So here we are, 189 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:45.200 and so yeah, so let's talk. Let's start at the beginning, 190 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.679 I guess, or rather at the origin of your own 191 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:54.440 philosophical journey, which it seems to you is the beginning 192 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:57.159 of philosophy is anxiety for you. So I'd kind of 193 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:00.440 love to talk a little bit about the experience of 194 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:05.519 your anxiety prior to your kind of philosophical exploration and 195 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:08.559 how you connected philosophy to anxiety. So what was that, 196 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.559 what was that experience like prior to kind of your 197 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:13.919 philosophical healing as it were. 198 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:18.879 Thanks very much for that really rich introduction, Jacob, And 199 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.279 you know, thank you too for connecting the contents of 200 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:24.600 the book or the discussions of the book to my 201 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:29.799 personal relationship with anxiety. The book grew out of an 202 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:33.519 essay that I wrote started working on almost ten years ago, 203 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:37.000 which was to describe my personal relationship to anxiety. I'd 204 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:40.360 been in therapy for five years. Before that, I'd been 205 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:43.679 studying philosophy for you know, at the doctor level, been 206 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:48.600 a professor for a while, and a lifelong sufferer of anxiety. 207 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:51.879 And when I thought about what I took to be 208 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:54.919 the foundational events in my life, in the way that 209 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:58.320 I first conceived it, these were a pair of personal believements. 210 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:01.559 I lost my parents early in my life life and 211 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:04.559 in you know, radically different fashion. I lost my father 212 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:06.559 when I was twelve. I lost my mother when I 213 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:09.360 was twenty six. I lost my father to a sudden 214 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:12.279 heart attack at home. I lost my mother to a 215 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:16.440 protracted illness to breast cancer. So these were sort of 216 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:21.600 radically different depths. One was sudden of one. I had 217 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:24.799 fear warning, and I was given all the warning I 218 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:27.159 needed in some sense, but it was still unexpected in 219 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:30.600 its own in its own particular way. And I think 220 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:32.759 the way I connected that to my personal anxiety was 221 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:36.080 that it made the world a kind of threatening place 222 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:39.480 in some ways, the portals of fatal possibility, as I 223 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:44.039 described it, had been opened. In some ways, anything was possible. 224 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:46.279 Now I understood that in some way there was a 225 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:50.320 kind of there was a kind of a reasonableness demand 226 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:53.159 that I had placed on the universe. There was some 227 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:57.240 limit of cruelty or indifference that the universe couldn't cross, right, 228 00:13:57.240 --> 00:13:59.799 There was this mentally imposed barrier had imposed in the universe. 229 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:01.840 You're not just going to do these kinds of things 230 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:04.759 to me. And actually I found out that the universe can, 231 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:08.720 it can do just about anything it once. And I 232 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.879 think that was a shocking revelation, one that sort of 233 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:15.279 you know, use whatever metaphor you want, pull the rug 234 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:18.720 out from under my feet, open the trap doors, made 235 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:21.480 me aware of the depths that lurked below, of the 236 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.000 abysiness going. You know, we can go on with these descriptions. 237 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:29.360 The idea is that I became extremely fearful and anxious. 238 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:32.960 Anything was possible after all, right, which, of course is 239 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:37.799 the paradigmatic state of anxiety. That you are scared, you 240 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:42.759 are fearful, you know, not quite of what your mind 241 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:46.399 can turn itself to any eventuality. So the world looks 242 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:50.519 with dangers in some ways. And of course anxiety doesn't 243 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:53.440 always manifest itself as fear of the unknown. It bubbles 244 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:57.519 up in different ways. It can restrict us from participating 245 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:00.679 fully in life. It can make us anger, It can 246 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:04.600 make us sedate ourselves through a variety of substances. It 247 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:06.960 can manifest itself in a host of what, you know, 248 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:12.360 psychiatrists might call mental disorders. So and then, of course, 249 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:14.480 you know, when I started to turn to philosophy, it 250 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:18.759 was because I found myself brought there, pushed there by 251 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:23.200 finding out that philosophical text offered relief of some sort, temporary, 252 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:25.600 because after all, when you close the book, you went 253 00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:29.639 back to being anxious again. But sometimes they changed your perspective, 254 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:32.200 the vantage points from which you could stand and take in, 255 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.440 you know, the world's offerings, and give you different perspectives 256 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:38.240 on what all of this meant. When I went to therapy, 257 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:42.279 I found out that I hadn't just become anxious. I 258 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:46.320 had always been anxious. And the more I thought about anxiety, 259 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:48.879 the more I studied philosophy, the more it seemed to 260 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:54.799 me that my being anxious was neither particularly bizarre or 261 00:15:54.840 --> 00:16:00.519 exceptional or weird. It almost was the way that we 262 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:04.559 human beings were constituted. And when I further reflected upon 263 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:07.559 it philosophically, using the resources that I now had, it 264 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:10.559 seemed to me that in fact, the existential conditions of 265 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:14.559 our life, of our existence, the so called existential trifecta 266 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:20.000 right that we live in finite time, that we are mortal, 267 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:24.159 and that we are conscious of these two parameters. That 268 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:28.120 we are mortal and live in finite time, This guarantees anxiety. 269 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:31.320 I mean, I'll probably add a fourth condition in there, 270 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:34.320 that we're concerned about the future. If we weren't concerned 271 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:37.720 about the future, we wouldn't be anxious. But we are 272 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:41.879 concerned about the future, and we have incomplete epistemic capacities, 273 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.399 the ability to acquire knowledge about the future. Now we're 274 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:49.559 in a bind. Time is running out. I'm conscious of 275 00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:52.919 this fact. I want to know what's going to happen, 276 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:58.639 but I really cannot find out with perfect certainty. So 277 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:03.720 I'm concerned, fearful, I'm anxious. So I think in some ways, 278 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:08.119 I I think philosophy brought me to these various passages 279 00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:12.000 of reflecting upon my state. But I'd come to it 280 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:17.759 because events in my life had turned me away from 281 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:20.799 a complacent attitude towards existence and made me realize that, 282 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:24.400 you know, this is all of it. It's all a 283 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:28.960 bit contingent, right, It's a bit it's a bit put together, 284 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:33.200 and it could fall apart in all these ways, right, 285 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:35.880 And I think it's that possibility which is always sort 286 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:38.680 of lurking at the edge of our minds, which I 287 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:41.160 think is the hallmark of a certain kind of anxiety. 288 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:43.279 In my book, of course, there's you know, there's all 289 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:45.200 these different traditions that I go through, and we can 290 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:48.400 talk about those, but I think the passageway for me was, 291 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:52.759 as you put it, was to be scared out of 292 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:57.400 my mind by what had just happened to an aspect 293 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:01.240 of the universe that I thought was involve my parents. 294 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.640 I mean, you know, they're like folks that brought me 295 00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:08.880 into this universe. I imagine them solid. 296 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:13.240 Right, Yeah. I mean you're the first part of your 297 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:16.279 book when you're kind of reflecting on these personal this 298 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:19.880 personal story. I mean, you know, even though the specifics 299 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:22.160 of your story with regards to the tragedy of your 300 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:25.079 parents' loss is you know, probably unique for a lot 301 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:27.480 of us. Many of us are lucky enough to have 302 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:32.440 parents that survive into to at least a little bit 303 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:35.160 of our later years, our mid age years, middle aged years. 304 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:38.880 But the way in which you kind of craft that 305 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:43.400 narrative it just it really resonates and I'm sure anybody 306 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:46.440 who reads it will feel that just how you know, 307 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:51.839 universal this experience is. And and that can be really 308 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:53.880 comforting in a way, because I think a lot of 309 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:58.559 people are kind of i don't know, inculturated or because 310 00:18:58.599 --> 00:19:00.839 of the pressure of their ansiet these feel kind of 311 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.799 alone in that in that experience. And so what your 312 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:08.519 book did for me was really, you know, pointed to 313 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.200 kind of the universality of this experience. And obviously, depending 314 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.160 on the tradition and we'll talk about those, you know, 315 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:19.759 how that anxiety, that existential you know, condition is situated 316 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:23.960 is different depending on from which tradition you look at 317 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:26.720 it from. But there is this kind of thread throughout 318 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.440 that this is sort of a pervasive and universal condition 319 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:33.880 that we all can relate to differently. Right, It isn't 320 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:36.400 this sort of well maybe we want to talk about 321 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:39.160 that next. It's not necessarily or at least you push 322 00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:42.759 back against this idea that that anxiety is purely sort 323 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:48.200 of a kind of mechanistic you know, brain chemistry imbalance, 324 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:50.599 and that is it is purely something that can be 325 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:56.400 sort of ameliorated by various you know, psychiatric substances, but 326 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:59.400 rather that there's you know, it's it's not simply that, 327 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:03.319 but there's this deeper meaning to anxiety, or rather there 328 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:05.519 are multiple kind of meanings. That's really what I took 329 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:08.599 away as well from your book, that there's this kind 330 00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:12.920 of multidimensionality to the exploration of meaning when it comes 331 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:19.079 to anxiety. And and those those variable kind of approaches 332 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:25.400 to anxiety don't necessarily always don't. They sometimes contradict each other, 333 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:29.359 and yet there's still something valuable in that, in that 334 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:33.240 variable expiration. So I want to ask you about that, 335 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:35.200 but I do want to just mention, you know, because 336 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.119 for those that are interested in getting the book, and 337 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:39.559 if you're not able to stay with us for the 338 00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:43.160 full interview, this is the book Anxiety, A Philosophical Guide 339 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:46.400 by Samir Chopra. It is I also wanted to mention 340 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:49.000 at the beginning. It is one of the most beautiful 341 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.759 books that I've read recently. It's it's very with a 342 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:54.519 lot of the types of books that I read for 343 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.480 this podcast or from my own study. It's a lot of, 344 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:02.000 you know, fact, very academic, kind of abstruse, dry stuff. 345 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:06.920 But you're not only is the book so rich with ideas, 346 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.279 but it's also just very beautifully written, and that's such 347 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:12.119 a pleasure. So it's also just a very pleasure book book. 348 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:13.119 So I wanted to mention. 349 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:13.599 That thank you. 350 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:17.799 Yes, so tell us about this, you know, I guess 351 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:21.359 let's just start from this idea the current kind of 352 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:27.119 cultural assumptions that we have about anxiety and kind of 353 00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:31.160 what is that fundamental obstacle that kind of is socialized 354 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:32.880 into us about anxiety that we kind of need to 355 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:37.839 overcome and or will overcome through this kind of philosophical 356 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:39.920 adventure or search. 357 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:46.000 So there's you know, you mentioned the conflicts between the 358 00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.359 different traditions that I that I cover in the book, 359 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.680 and I think that's one way to think about the 360 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:53.960 way in which we as a culture think about anxiety. 361 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:55.799 And I think part of my motivation for writing the 362 00:21:55.839 --> 00:22:01.160 book was to definitely, as it were, change some of 363 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:04.799 the ways in which we think about anxiety. Right, So 364 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:08.480 there are a couple of broad based cultural assumptions that 365 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:10.039 I think out there. One of them, of course, is 366 00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:13.440 what I would call them medicalized assumption, right that anxiety 367 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:17.440 is a psychiatric condition and this is to be treated 368 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:22.400 with psychiatric medications. Right, anti anxiety medications are very common, 369 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:27.640 and in fact, precisely because anti anxiety medications have not 370 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:31.279 just one effect but a variety of effects, we often 371 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:35.200 see people taking anti anxiety medications for afflictions are not anxiety, 372 00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:37.759 for example, there are people who are taking anxiety medications 373 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:41.640 to help them sleep, for instance. Right. So, okay, so 374 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:43.839 that's one. There's anxiety that's kind of understood as a 375 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:49.240 medical condition. Right. Then there's another way in which anxiety 376 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:55.319 is at some level understood, implicitly or explicitly, that it 377 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:57.799 has something to do with the way that we have 378 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.880 organized our world. I think people do have some inkling 379 00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:05.079 that this is a cultural issue, this is a political issue, 380 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:08.720 if we may want to go that far, that in 381 00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:10.920 some ways, the ways in which we have chosen to 382 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:14.319 organize the world, to relate to each other, to live 383 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:19.000 with each other, this is making us anxious, right, And 384 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:21.920 I think social theorists have been beaten on this drum 385 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:25.359 for a couple hundred years now, like, look around you, 386 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:29.720 what do you expect You're bound to be anxious? Right? 387 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:32.200 That's true. And at the same time, I think this 388 00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:34.440 other cultural assumption goes along with it, which is that, well, 389 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:38.000 it's a medical condition, and so if we were to 390 00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:40.759 treat this medical condition well, we would bring relief and 391 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:45.599 an end to the suffering and misery of anxiety. And 392 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:47.640 guess what that would make all of us functional and 393 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:52.279 happier than ever before. Right. So, there's a suspicions, I 394 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:54.240 think floating around in the minds of many, which is 395 00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:57.039 expressed in a lot of the critical literature and theory 396 00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:00.400 and philosophy and political theorizing in this domain, you know, 397 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:03.920 lots of other psychological theorizing as well, that in fact 398 00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:09.240 we might be medicating something which is you know, which 399 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:14.119 is a matter of perhaps personal and political reflection. Perhaps 400 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:17.359 there's something suspicious about the fact that anxiety makes us 401 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:20.599