WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.560 From the force of a ball with the forced sprain 2 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:05.480 with the ball sprain with the ankle sprain, active and 3 00:00:05.480 --> 00:00:11.119 passive spiration. Josh also said, uh, uh, philoque. 4 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:11.960 Is that you spell it? Or like, how do you 5 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:15.119 how do you say you say that loque? Is that fine? Yes? 6 00:00:15.240 --> 00:00:18.879 No, Philly okay okay, I didn't know. Uh, I didn't 7 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:20.879 know how you us to pronounce that. One says the 8 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:23.320 spirit proceeds from the father and the son, but what 9 00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:25.800 he's arguing is from the father through the son. That's 10 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:30.000 not what the philioque says, though, lame semantic argument from 11 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:34.920 r seas Uh Maximus. Jacimus says someone gives him a 12 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:36.960 pillow to bite on because Jay is going and dry. 13 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:38.119 That's a weird statement. 14 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:42.920 Tiagawanowski Uh said, if you can prove the Holy Ghost 15 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:46.000 is from the division, you win the debate, because Christ 16 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:48.359 says otherwise. When accused of expelling the demons in the 17 00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:50.280 name of the Prince of the Demons, he says that 18 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:54.039 Satan is divided against Satan. Saint Augustine says the byrate 19 00:00:54.119 --> 00:00:56.399 means to breathe. The spirit breathes on whom he wills. 20 00:00:56.479 --> 00:01:01.640 Y'all are fools. Everyone lost apparently true. Forty one he said, 21 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:03.600 found out I was the father today because I was fathered. 22 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:07.280 Gotta find my non existent child now. Late night two 23 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:09.079 girls said I really like the mod By the way, 24 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:12.079 votes Jay seventy four percent, RC is twenty six percent. 25 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:14.640 Orthodox is an extreme minority in the West, and we won. 26 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:16.400 This will carry far and wide. 27 00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:17.280 Thank God. 28 00:01:18.319 --> 00:01:20.599 Maxims DESCMSSUL said, I'm interested in I'm telling us what 29 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:24.280 his pope did in Chile. We also have a quantrum 30 00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:26.519 merit said, shout out to Tim for restoring masculinity to 31 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:29.959 Christianity and recentering the importance of patriarchy in the family. 32 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:34.840 He's a good dude. We also have Ianassius, said Gordon. 33 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:37.599 You said the spirit is a passive spirator. Does this 34 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:41.319 passivity imply a potential potentiality in the Holy Spirit? 35 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:43.480 Oh? 36 00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:45.760 Hold on, are we going to superchech question? 37 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:47.400 No, I'm just I'm just reading some of these right 38 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:48.920 now because we'll do some questions at the end. I'm 39 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:54.200 trying to skip the questions right now. They also said 40 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:56.760 Maxims to Tim, we will never accept your dumpster cult. 41 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:58.959 You should apply more lou because Jay is going and dry. 42 00:01:59.000 --> 00:01:59.719 What is it with these. 43 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:04.560 Sexual six of spades that Jay Catholics can't address these arguments, 44 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:05.959 you are obviously a big meanie. 45 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:08.039 And then we'll leave this one as well. 46 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:11.439 Servant Nick Tario said, let's all submit to Pope Katie 47 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:12.919 Perry instead just get along, all. 48 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:19.080 Right, that's a good point to say that, so I 49 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:21.039 argue with him. 50 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:22.719 I just want to say that for those that are 51 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:25.680 interested in what I'm talking about, because it can't be 52 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:29.120 cashed out. And two second answers, I shared two things 53 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.039 on my Twitter. They can check those two articles out 54 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:31.800 what I'm talking. 55 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:32.479 About, all right. 56 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:34.199 You know, we did to have to moderate some very 57 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:37.280 gross stuff in the chat, so let's avoid the derogatory 58 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:40.680 sexual nature of comments, unless, of course, you're on our 59 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:42.960 locals can sign up there on locals at lad to 60 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:44.639 share at locals dot com if you want to support 61 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:46.919 this channel as we grow and you want to join, 62 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:49.879 We usually do an extra segment every single time as 63 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:52.639 well on here, and shout out to Andrew Wilson the Crucible. 64 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:54.639 We'd love to have you on for some debates again. 65 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:57.680 Stick around because Monday we're also having Joel webbinon, who's 66 00:02:57.719 --> 00:02:59.919 representing the Protestant position. He may be and we're trying 67 00:02:59.919 --> 00:03:02.039 to set up a debate between him and Adam Green 68 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:03.319 and some of the guys who say that, you know, 69 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:06.520 Jesus is a Jewish myth and that basically he's a 70 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:08.719 you know, irrelevant and so we're trying to set that up. 71 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:11.159 So encourage you to check that out again. Go to 72 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:13.199 Elijah Shaefer dot locals dot com and if we have 73 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:15.400 the thing to pop up, but it would be good 74 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:18.560 if you guys could meet us there. Well in a second, yeah, 75 00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:19.840 you can find that. The leak's on the screen and 76 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:23.800 the description. We'll be back talking about the papacy apostolic succession. 77 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:26.080 This is an interesting question of mine. 78 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:27.879 I'm just gonna say this, like before I come out 79 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:30.520 and say this from my history and what I've known 80 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:33.159 about the papacy, that's this is the issue that is 81 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:35.919 most confusing to me because of that one time when 82 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:38.400 some pope got excommunicated and the other pope came in 83 00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:41.039 and he conquered that pope, and who's the pope and 84 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:42.879 how do we even know who's the real pope? Is 85 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:46.120 do we need to follow the pope? Is the Vatican corrupted? Right, 86 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:47.680 There's a lot of things we need to discuss. We'll 87 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:50.199 be right back. Don't go anywhere like share and subscribe 88 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:52.719 to this channel. We are on Rumble, YouTube, Facebook, and 89 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:54.879 on x We'll be right back. I've decided to take 90 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:57.759 a different approach to my life and not go to 91 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:03.719 Israel and not kiss the wall because I'm not Jewish. 92 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:11.000 I am a once practicing evangelical raised that way, turned 93 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:14.639 to atheist, then returned back to the to the church 94 00:04:14.680 --> 00:04:19.800 to Pentecostalism, and then fell back into sin, into vice, 95 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:22.519 and then went back to the church to try to 96 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:25.480 get help. And it was an absolute horrific show of 97 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:28.040 retarded people, is all I can say. 98 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:30.240 And I became very disillusioned. 99 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:34.959 And then as I've gotten older, man, people were talking 100 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:37.639 about Jay Agent. You and I have the same comments, 101 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:41.399 like you guys are getting old. Unfortunately we are, and 102 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:43.680 that's what happens. I don't know what our excuses, since 103 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:45.240 the guy with the most kids in the room looks 104 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:48.399 the youngest, so that's the problem. But in the end, 105 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:50.040 what I'm saying is that it's coming down to the 106 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:52.120 fact of like these questions. You know, the Bible talks 107 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:54.680 about not getting lost in like arguments, just about words 108 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:56.839 and names, right, So we don't want to be arguing 109 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:58.600 for the sake of arguing. A lot of people, especially 110 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:02.319 in Reformed theology, even in this Catholic Orthodox debate, can 111 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:04.720 just argue for the sake of arguing. But I don't 112 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:08.040 think there's anything wrong with searching. And it's part of 113 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:11.439 the masculine spirit to fight right and to come against, 114 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.879 to come against falsehood and things that are untrue. And 115 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:16.879 so in the spirit of not debate, in the spirit 116 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:20.399 of truth, right, the spirit of God. This is an 117 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:23.839 inspiration going to have these guys out here to really 118 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:25.959 seek the truth. And we were talking a bit off 119 00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:28.279 camera as they're just getting their notes together preparing for 120 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:29.000 our topic three. 121 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:31.680 For a second, I just wanted to inform you guys. 122 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:33.160 You know, that we were they're kind of explaining to 123 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:38.000 me where they they misunderstood or where I was misunderstanding them, 124 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:40.639 I should say. And the differences of what they believed 125 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:43.839 about the Trinity is very fascinating, and especially someone who's 126 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:48.519 not from either discipline of theology or Orthodoxy, and not 127 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:50.839 as the Church itself with the Orthodox belief of our 128 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:53.680 very very precious faith of Christianity. 129 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:55.319 It is nice and it's a. 130 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:58.680 Reminder just to remind you guys like myself, you know, 131 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.319 let's member to never always just get caught up in 132 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:03.639 the words and the meanings of words. To remember who 133 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:05.920 it's about. It is about Christ, it is about our 134 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:09.800 God and the Spirit. It's about you know, depending on 135 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:13.800 what you believe or the iterations of what you believe, 136 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:16.040 also remember that you're living it out. And I ask 137 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:18.399 somebody who's not fully living it out but wants to 138 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:21.759 and admits wholeheartedly that I struggle, you know, with with 139 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:23.839 sin and vice at times in my life, like many 140 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:26.720 men before me, do want to know how to walk 141 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:28.800 in the spirit of God in order to be an 142 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:32.480 example for my beautiful sons, to lead my wife, and 143 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:34.519 to be a good friend, you know, and. 144 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:35.040 A good brother. 145 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:38.000 And so we're gonna be they're gathering their notes here 146 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:42.040 for just a second and gathering their voices. So you know, 147 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:44.959 I appreciate you guys that are in the chat, and 148 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:45.959 it is important, you know. 149 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:47.839 And like you said, yeah, words matter all this, Yeah, 150 00:06:47.959 --> 00:06:48.360 of course they do. 151 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:50.519 So it's not that we can't argue these things, just 152 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:52.480 that you know, sometimes people can get, you know, so 153 00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:54.920 so into arguing that they forget that what the point 154 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:56.959 of it is is like government. They get so into 155 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:58.639 fighting for their party to get into office that once 156 00:06:58.680 --> 00:06:59.279 their party gets in. 157 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:01.199 Office, the party doesn't do anything for the people. 158 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:03.360 And then they're just happy that you know, the parties 159 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:05.399 and powers, but what are they using the power for? 160 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:07.519 So I just feel like this is very helpful for 161 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:09.240 me because I want to know am I doing the 162 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:09.639 right thing? 163 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:10.800 Am I part of the right church? 164 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:14.600 And I think Jay and Tim are ready now to 165 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:18.720 begin our discussion on their third topic for tonight, which 166 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:20.399 is absolutely fantastic. 167 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:25.040 So as we go on, we will move on to. 168 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:30.279 This next topic, which of course we're talking about what 169 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:35.759 I've heard called is apostolic succession, this idea of is 170 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:37.600 there a handing down of the church? 171 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:39.800 Is there a visible head of the church? Right? Who 172 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:42.600 is at the head? Right? And so. 173 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:46.839 Let's begin and let's sell some of the Elijah one 174 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:50.160 in the comments that's like say nothing. That's how a 175 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:52.199 woman wins an argument. Really they think it's they think 176 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:53.959 they win. But if they just shut up, you know, 177 00:07:55.040 --> 00:07:58.839 I think we'd like them a lot more sometimes anyway, 178 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.759 at that, all right, let's go ahead and we'll leave 179 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:06.240 us up because we gave each of you guys an 180 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:11.519 opportunity here. So I'm going to go ahead and uh 181 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:14.920 and give you guys a chance. I will ask Jay, Jay, 182 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:16.399 would you like to go first or would you like 183 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:17.839 to give him the opportunity to go first? 184 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:19.920 On this question. You have the choice because you were 185 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:20.480 first before. 186 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:25.319 Huh okay, all right, Jay Dyer, I'm gonna ask you 187 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:28.480 this Christ, did he or did he not establish a 188 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:31.800 visible head of church? Representing the Orthodox position? You have 189 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:34.480 an opening statement. I will give you ten minutes on 190 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:36.840 the clock. Let me reset it here for a moment. 191 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:40.399 Your time will begin in just a second. Here all right, 192 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:44.799 For everybody that's here, it's jayder You can find him 193 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:47.639 here on YouTube and on Rumble and on x. 194 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:51.559 Your time begins. Now you may answer the question right well. 195 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:54.000 They real issue here is, of course, the Vatican One 196 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:57.399 definition of the papacy, not just the question of did 197 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:01.000 Jesus establish quote a visible head? Because for the Orthodox Church, 198 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:03.240 we would say that all the bishops, as many of 199 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:06.120 the church fathers argued apologetically in the first few centuries, 200 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:09.159 all the bishops are actually Peter, something that Saint Cyprian said. 201 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:14.279 So there's no specifically unique special role that Peter gets 202 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:17.519 amongst either the collegey of the Apostles nor amongst his successors, 203 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:21.600 other than canonical privileges, which for example, Canon six of 204 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:26.440 Nicia says, is equivalent to other patriarchates. Not only that, 205 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:28.960 at the Council of Ephesus, I don't know, I've never 206 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:29.759 heard him talk about this. 207 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:30.720 I don't know if he knows about or not. 208 00:09:30.759 --> 00:09:35.840 But the Church at Ephesus granted through the Ecamenical Council 209 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:39.720 autocephaly to the Church of Cyprus. That means that it's 210 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:44.080 autonomous and independent. This is usually unheard of in the 211 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:46.440 world of Roman Catholic apologetics. They're not aware of the 212 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:50.279 fact that there were autocephalist, independent churches. And that's because 213 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:53.840 the Roman Catholic Church developed eventually to have a monarchical 214 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:59.399 autocratic position, which isn't just about indefectibility, infallibility in universal 215 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:03.600 jurisdic or a kind of papal autocracy. It actually went 216 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:05.840 much further than that in the eleventh century with the 217 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.080 Gregorian reforms, to where the papacy became a de facto 218 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:13.360 world emperor. Now, the Canons of Chalcedon say that civil 219 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:18.159 rulership and authority and power is forbidden for clerics to have. 220 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:20.759 Not only did the Roman bishop go beyond this, the 221 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:24.559 Roman bishop actually, in Dictatus Poppe in ten ninety, declared 222 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:27.600 itself to be the only church founded by God, the 223 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:29.720 only one that could be called universal, the only one 224 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:32.320 that could reinstate in depose bishops, the only one that 225 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:35.240 had the right of quote the imperial signia, the one 226 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:36.960 in which all the princes in the world should kiss 227 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:41.440 his feet, the one alone who may depose emperors, et cetera, 228 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:44.080 et cetera. Really extreme and by the way, and can 229 00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:45.360 never er and will never err. 230 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:46.279 Unto the end of the world. 231 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:50.039 The problem is that Dictatas Pape and those claims in 232 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.759 the next few centuries are actually based on known famous forgeries. 233 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:58.080 Now again I want to promote my buddy George's book 234 00:10:58.159 --> 00:10:58.919 Airs the Latins. 235 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:01.039 Volume two is three hundred. 236 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:04.320 Pages just on all of the infamous forgeries, whether the 237 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:08.320 Samakian forgeries, whether the Galatian decretals, or whether the donation 238 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:11.720 of Constantine, and many many others. All of these really contributed, 239 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:15.639 even according to Congar himself and other Romancolic scholars, to 240 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:22.159 leading to this evolution of the papacy into a geopolitical world. 241 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:22.519 Power. 242 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:24.360 Now you might say, well, that's not a big deal. 243 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:26.200 I mean, come on, in Middle Ages there was a 244 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:27.039 power vacuum. 245 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:29.200 Ah, but wait a minute, did you know that a 246 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:33.000 few centuries after Dictatus Pope in Unum sanctam, the last 247 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.080 paragraph of this bowl by Pope Boniface the Eighth in 248 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:40.320 thirteen oh two, states that not only must you be 249 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:43.120 in communion with the Roman see to be saved, you 250 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:48.399 must also believe in the worldly temporal power of the 251 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.840 Roman bishop to be saved. Now, nobody had ever heard 252 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:54.879 of this doctrine before, and so how are we going 253 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:57.240 to defend this. Well, that's where the forgeries come in. 254 00:11:57.679 --> 00:11:59.919 You must also believe that the Pope is the Quisa 255 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:02.600 Todd or the universe is super being to be saved, 256 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:07.120 which nobody else believed or required for salvation prior to this. 257 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:08.720 This is a new doctrine. 258 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:10.720 Now, not only is this a new doctrine, I'm going 259 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:13.080 to show definitively from the Roman Catholic teaching it from 260 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:17.279 their own dogmas, that this is actually now no longer held. 261 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:20.200 Well wait a minute, maybe this one didn't count. Maybe 262 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:21.559 this is one of those things that I can throw 263 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.200 in the not dogmatic ben as you're going to see 264 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:27.320 they arbitrarily do all the time. Well, actually, in the 265 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.399 Syllabus of Errors, when I come all the way up 266 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:33.279 about nine hundred years later, from the time of dictatas Pape, 267 00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:36.120 all the way up to Pious the Ninth. In the 268 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:38.080 Syllabus of Areas, which is attached by the way to 269 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:41.519 Vatican one, we read that in paragraph seventy six, the 270 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:44.919 abolition of the temporal power of the Roman Sea is possessed, 271 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:48.039 that it possesses that it would be great for the 272 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.600 Church to get rid of this condemned to the proposition 273 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:53.080 of condemned, and there's others that relate to this as well. 274 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:57.960 Interesting because John Paul the First was the first pope 275 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:00.840 to cease to use the papal to your that is 276 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:05.480 the three tiered tr which signified all levels of his 277 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:08.440 power and authority, including temporal power and authority. But when 278 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:10.519 we come to the documents of Vatican two we find 279 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:13.200 the exact opposite of this. Not only is the temporal 280 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:17.080 supremacy of the Roman bishop, which was for centuries necessary 281 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:21.559 for salvation discarded, we're actually told that quote in the 282 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:25.320 Church and Modern World document Jesus didn't actually come to 283 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:29.759 bequeath any political mission to the Church, it was only religious. 284 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:33.960 That's paragraph forty two. We read, for example, in the 285 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:37.159 Church and the Modern World over in section eighty two, 286 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:43.039 that the promotion of a world government is really the 287 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:47.720 only solution in terms of internationalism, globalism and entities presumably 288 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:49.679 like the UN. It doesn't say the UN, but it 289 00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:54.159 mentions surrendering power to international organizations. And then on paragraph 290 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:56.320 eighty four it actually says the exact same thing. So 291 00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:59.039 the papacy you see in the next page says that 292 00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:03.639 all Christian and non religions can work together in human 293 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:06.720 institutions for an. 294 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:06.919 End to war. 295 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:09.679 So now we're going to have an end to war 296 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:12.279 through entities like the United Nations. And if we slip 297 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:15.879 flip over to the Religious Liberty Document, chapter two, it 298 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:19.240 says the Vatican declares that human persons have a right 299 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.519 to religious freedom, that everyone should be immune from any 300 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.440 coercion by any individual or social group, any human power 301 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:31.399 at all in religious matters. Interesting because that exact phraseology 302 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.360 and terminology is actually condemned in the Syllabus of errors 303 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:39.200 numbers fifty five, seventy seven, and seventy eight. So in 304 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:42.000 John the twenty thirds Pachaminteros, we're told that we can 305 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:46.279 now begin to work towards a globalized government. This idea 306 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:49.360 basically makes its way into the documents of Vatican two, 307 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:53.120 and we're even told that the state should in no 308 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:56.600 way at all coerce, and it should first and foremost 309 00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:58.039 respect people's liberty. 310 00:14:58.360 --> 00:14:59.799 Now, maybe you think that sounds good. 311 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:01.519 Maybe you think, oh, that was a Cold War thing, 312 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:03.480 and maybe they needed to promote religious liberty. 313 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:04.080 For the Cold War. 314 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:07.559 But remember, for all of these centuries, all the way 315 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:10.799 up until the Syllabus of Errors, you are required for 316 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:15.320 your salvation not just to believe in the Roman Sea, 317 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:19.960 in its spiritual supremacy and universality and infallibility, but also 318 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:23.840 as a world emperor and highest. The ninth condemns anyone 319 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:27.240 that would dare go against that. Next, I would point 320 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:30.240 out that in these same documents we are told, for example, 321 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:34.360 in Mortalium Animals so Piest the eleventh, the Catholic Church, 322 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:38.279 the Apostolic Sea, has never allowed its subjects to take 323 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:42.879 part in any of the symbolies of non Catholics. A 324 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:47.320 few paragraphs earlier, before fourteen, it talks about how pan 325 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:53.799 Christians should be condemned humanist ceremonies and religious events are 326 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:57.720 in no ways lawful for Catholics to be a part of. 327 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:02.519 That is paragraph nine, so nineteen twenty eight. It is 328 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:06.559 always universally the Roman Catholic teaching that you cannot be 329 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:11.279 involved in these ceremonies, rituals, and rites of at that 330 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:16.120 time Protestant groups. But now in the post Roman Catholic world, 331 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:19.799 the Apostolic Sea supposedly has actually made itself part and 332 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:24.039 party with other world religions, including Pacha Mama and other 333 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:26.720 such bizarre ceremonies that took place in the Vatican. In fact, 334 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:30.200 Tim and his own website, on his own channel, has 335 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.440 talked about how, in his view he thinks it's heretical 336 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:38.519 that the approval of communion for adulterers was given by 337 00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:41.120 Pope Francis. And we can of course list a long 338 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:43.559 litany of problems with Francis. 339 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:45.360 Now, I'm sure that we're going to hear a two. 340 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:49.480 Quoque that you have corrupt bishops too, Orthodox have Acuminist bishops. 341 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:54.240 But we don't have everything hinging on one dude, his infallibility, 342 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:59.159 his indefectibility, and his universal jurisdiction. In fact, the Vatican itself. 343 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:02.320 In the Chia eighty document, paragraph nineteen admits in the 344 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:06.079 very last section appeals to the Bishop of Rome in 345 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:09.559 the first thousand years. It's talking about express the communion 346 00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:12.599 of the Church. However, the Bishop of Rome did not 347 00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:15.880 exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East. Now 348 00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:18.359 this is on the Vatican website. I'm not saying they're 349 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:21.799 dogmatic statements. I don't need to say that they're dogmatic 350 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:26.359 statements because essentially they're admitting the collegiality and the sonidality 351 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:28.920 that the Orthodox Church has been arguing for the last 352 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:32.039 thousand years against the Roman Catholic Church. Now that was 353 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:35.240 eighty and twenty, I think sixteen, and then a couple 354 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:36.880 of years ago there was a part two to CHI 355 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:40.079 eighty called the Alexandria Document. In the Alexandria Document, you 356 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:42.359 have all the things that I've been talking about admitted 357 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.640 by the Vatican, including paragraph one point three, the false 358 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:50.720 decretals and the donation of Constantine contributing to this geopolitical 359 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:53.160 world power of the papacy. 360 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:54.079 In the Middle Ages. 361 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:58.759 Again, it has now been discarded. So I want to 362 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:01.680 know why is it that it was necessary for me 363 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:07.960 to believe in the universal geopolitical quisatsaderack doctrine of the 364 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:12.000 papacy to be saved in the year fourteen hundred. It 365 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:15.480 wasn't necessary in the year five hundred because nobody taught 366 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:17.680 that or believe that in the year five hundred. And 367 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:20.279 then now again we're back to it doesn't count and 368 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:22.039 you don't have to believe that anymore because the Vatican 369 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:26.200 now says that religious liberty is the highest of all 370 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:31.079 of the excise me religious liberty is the goal that 371 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:34.839 all states should pursue when it comes to the role 372 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:36.000 of church and state. 373 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:38.240 You have forty five seconds, and lastly, I want to 374 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:44.559 I want to talk about let's see. 375 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:47.880 Yeah, I got through shady now I'll go ahead and 376 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:51.880 stop there. I think I got to puppy. Yeah, that's 377 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:52.640 that's all my saying. 378 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:57.119 Okay, great, And you know, obviously there's a lot of 379 00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:59.640 a lot of questions here, and so the Catholic position 380 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:01.880 I feel like is more well understood by people. But 381 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:04.440 like I mentioned, you know, it is very very hard, 382 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:06.799 especially just just so you know for myself. You know, 383 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.279 some of the nuances of how we know that the 384 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:11.640 papacy is divine or that we know that it's been 385 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.319 passed down apostolically and there hasn't been you know, bribes 386 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:16.640 and confusion. I think I'm not I'm not convinced, and 387 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:18.359 I know not a lot of you know, some people aren't. 388 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.880 And just to clarify, this isn'tciting with the Orthodox or anything. 389 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:23.759 But you know, sometimes I meet a lot of young 390 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:28.039 Catholics and they, you know, believe in this very very strongly, 391 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:30.000 but then don't know about some of the nuances. And 392 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:31.640 so I hope you can answer some of our questions, 393 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:33.279 you know, during this time or understand them. 394 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:35.319 So you have an opening statement, I'm gonna give you. 395 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.720 I give him ten minutes and thirty seconds, So let 396 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:40.160 me add an extra thirty seconds here to the clock. 397 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:43.359 Give me a moment. I appreciate it. 398 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:46.480 Arguing the Catholic position here on the is that? Is 399 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:47.960 it correct to cull the Apostolic succession? 400 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:50.119 Here? Is that? Or it was slightly different? The papacy 401 00:19:50.119 --> 00:19:50.759 a little bit different. 402 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:52.640 The papacy is a special instance. 403 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.319 Yeah, okay, great, you have ten ten minutes and thirty seconds, 404 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:57.559 Timothy Gordon. You can find them on YouTube and all 405 00:19:57.559 --> 00:19:59.720 across the internet. Your time starts now. 406 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:04.319 Well, Jay's wright, the church's sonatyl, and every synod requires 407 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:08.039 a head. The prompt to this section that I didn't 408 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:12.160 hear one word from jay On is did Jesus establish 409 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:15.400 the patrine office or the papacy or something which is 410 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:19.839 a chronology two thousand years old. It's either a yes 411 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:24.440 or a no. And if it's demonstrated that Jesus established 412 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:28.720 a papacy, then it doesn't matter what might have happened 413 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:31.519 eighteen hundred years, nineteen hundred years into the papacy, for 414 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:35.759 better or for worse, what would matter? I guess at 415 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:38.319 that point Christianity would be destroyed. It wouldn't be Roman 416 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:42.039 Catholicism that would be destroyed if and only if Jesus 417 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:46.279 established a pontificate to head his one church. And that's 418 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:49.680 the fact. When Christ built his church, he didn't leave 419 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:52.319 us with a theory of unity, but with a living office. 420 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:57.079 Because again synods require heads, the rock, the keys, the shepherd, 421 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:00.960 all of these have meaning. From the first sent to today, 422 00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:03.680 that office has always been recognized in the Bishop of Rome. 423 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:08.480 The question tonight and third prompt is very simple. Did 424 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:13.039 Christ intend a church with a center of unity or 425 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:18.839 did he intend a circularly premised epistemology question begging vetteration 426 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:23.400 of fourteen or more churches that fractures whenever disputes arise, 427 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:28.440 and where you define the councils as being ecumenical when 428 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:31.559 we accept them, but the accepted councils are how we 429 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:35.079 know they're ecumenical. That's the Orthodox way. That's the way. 430 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:38.279 Anytime you have a synod without a head, there has 431 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:41.359 to be a visible sign of unity or else it 432 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:44.799 doesn't make any sense. Remember, throughout this debate, if Christ 433 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:49.480 established the papacy, which was universal to all of Christianity 434 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:52.279 for over a thousand years, which is why Jay won't 435 00:21:52.279 --> 00:21:56.519 address the point in time that Christ established or didn't 436 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:00.119 establish the papacy, and the papacy has later disproved, and 437 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.720 then it's Christianity that is false, not just Roman Catholicism. 438 00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:08.079 So that's really really important. I hope that that point 439 00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:11.759 resonates with people. Either Christ did or Christ didn't. We're 440 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:13.720 going to assess that. I'm going to assess that tonight 441 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:17.319 because that's the prompt. And by the way, yes, all 442 00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:20.440 bishops can be said to succeed Peter in a sense. 443 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:24.039 Many of the Patristics say this, but Rome succeeds him 444 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:26.759 in a special way. The debates not whether or not 445 00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:30.680 the Church has visible unity, but where that unity is 446 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:34.720 concretely safeguarded the papacy, the good popes, the bad popes, 447 00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:40.839 the mediocre popes, it's concretely safeguarded there. Jesus want all 448 00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:45.960 to be one so that they could believe in John's Gospel, 449 00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:51.319 Chapter seventeen, and Orthodoxy simply doesn't have it, which is 450 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:54.519 why Jay won't address this. There is no oneness, no 451 00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:59.839 one holy, Catholic, Apostolic. You can point out incoherencies that 452 00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:03.200 you believe in here in the papacy. But if Christ 453 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:07.559 established it, then that disproves all of Christianity. The Catholic 454 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:10.920 position is that I'll show it tonight. Christ established the 455 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:14.519 papacy as a perpetual principle of unity. The Vatican two 456 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:19.880 document restates this. Orthodox often will affirm papal primacy but 457 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:25.359 deny universal jurisdiction, which is a nonsensical distinction. The question 458 00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:29.720 is did Christ intend a merely honorific primacy or a 459 00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:33.599 juridical universal one. In other words, can the pope actually 460 00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:38.480 make decisions for all of the churches around the world. 461 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:44.039 There's three scriptural foundations for the papacy. It's Matthew chapter sixteen, 462 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:46.640 verse eighteen to nineteen. You're Peter on this rock, I 463 00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:49.240 will build my church. I will give you the keys. 464 00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:54.039 There's Luke chapter twenty two, verse thirty one thirty two. 465 00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:57.920 Christ praise uniquely for Peter among all of the twelve, 466 00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:00.880 that his faith may not fail, so that he alone 467 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:06.039 may strengthen his brethren, confirm his brethren. John twenty one 468 00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:10.519 is the third papal scripture. Peter is entrusted with universal shepherding. 469 00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:14.160 He says three times feed my lambs, feed my sheep, 470 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:20.680 ten tend my lambs. This triad shows something jurisdictional. It's 471 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:24.559 anagogical language. So let's go to the Patristic testimony, because 472 00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.920 once again we're trying to assess whether or not Jesus 473 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:32.240 actually established the papacy, not whether or not Pope Francis 474 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.680 signed the Chady Document or whatever. Two thousand years later. 475 00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:39.240 We're trying to say, did Jesus establish this at the beginning? 476 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:41.960 Well in the most and most people don't know this. 477 00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:44.880 It's been either hidden from them or they've been brainwashed. 478 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:49.640 Clement of Rome before the year one hundred successor direct 479 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:55.599 successor Peter intervenes authoritatively in Corinth while the apostle John 480 00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:00.559 is still alive in Ephesus. This is the early known 481 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:04.119 exercise of Roman authority. He intervenes Clement of Rome. This 482 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.519 is the year ninety six AD, and it's a well 483 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:12.079 established thing, though most Christians know nothing of it. Ignacious 484 00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:16.519 of Antioch. Just eleven years later, one of the earliest 485 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:20.759 Patristics calls the Roman Church the one presiding in love 486 00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:23.839 the way this term president comes from this idea of 487 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:26.039 presiding in love. In his Letters to the Letter to 488 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.880 the Romans, Ierinaeus less than a century later, in one 489 00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:33.920 eight AD, insists that all churches must agree with the 490 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:38.079 Roman Church because of its pre eminent authority direct quote 491 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:42.079 and against heresies. Pre eminent authority. Have you ever heard 492 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:47.039 Aeronaus cided this early on, before even the year too, 493 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:51.720 almost halfway before the Nicene Council, the first ecumenical council. 494 00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:55.640 You have three of these guys saying pre eminent presiding. 495 00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:00.640 One of the earliest popes intervenes in Corinth two fifty 496 00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:04.759 one AD, Cyprian of Carthage. Though he classes with Pope Stephen, 497 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:08.000 he still calls Rome the chair of Peter in the 498 00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:12.880 Principal Church from which sasserdotal unity has arisen Principal p 499 00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:17.599 Pa l. This is all before Nicia. People don't know it, 500 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:21.000 and it's a shame that they don't know it. What 501 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:24.400 they also don't know is that among the ecumenical now 502 00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:28.960 there's this this circularity operating within Orthodoxy because they don't 503 00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:31.759 have a principle of unity or oneness on earth. They'll 504 00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:35.119 say the councils ecumenical when we accept them. When we 505 00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:37.559 don't like them, we won't accept them. And we know 506 00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:41.480 because they're not ecumenical. So it's a classic question begging 507 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:46.839 er potisio principio the first ecumenical Council Nicea three twenty 508 00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:54.240 five has Canon six, which Jay referenced this. Actually, i'm 509 00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:58.519 glad he brought it up. It presupposes Roman primacy as 510 00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:06.480 a precedent for the Alexandria and Antioch patriarchies. It's a 511 00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:12.359 precedent for them. It's really important. It grounds Alexandria's authority 512 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:15.839 by appealing to Rome's customs as the standard. So it's 513 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:20.079 not saying that they're equal, it's saying that Rome has 514 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:24.839 primacy a complete misreading of this. Rome isn't local, so 515 00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:27.319 it would make no sense to compare one of the 516 00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:30.680 Eastern churches to Rome. Rome is the standard bear. It 517 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:35.599 is an established, far away authority. Rome primacy, not equality. 518 00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:40.000 That's right there. Canon six Council of Nicea and Nicea 519 00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:42.559 also establishes the four marks of the Church, which the 520 00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:45.440 Catholic Church alone really claims, as far as I know, 521 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:50.039 one Holy Catholic Apostolic Orthodox can claim because they have 522 00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:53.079 sacraments and real bishops. They can claim two of them 523 00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.359 wholly in Apostolic, but they can't claim the other two. 524 00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:59.960 One certainly, I've never heard of it. Maybe I'm wrong, 525 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:05.559 but the Federation of Orthodox Churches can claim too. At 526 00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:09.319 the Council of Aphesis, which is the third ecumenical council 527 00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:13.720 accepted by both Catholics and Orthodox what happened is you 528 00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:19.960 had an appeal to Rome to the Pope to excommunicate 529 00:28:20.359 --> 00:28:26.079 the Patriarch of Constantinople by another Eastern father, the head 530 00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.839 of the whole, Sorry, Holly and blessed Peter. It's written 531 00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:30.759 the Prince and head of the Apostles, the column of 532 00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:33.680 the Faith, the foundation of the Catholic Church received the 533 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:36.319 keys of the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ, and 534 00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:39.279 that tim was given the power of binding and loosing sins, 535 00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:41.720 who until this day and forever lives in judges in 536 00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:45.359 his successors. So it's not just Peter alone, in his successors, 537 00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:47.559 he binds the head of the whole faith, the head 538 00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:52.400 of the Apostles is Blessed Peter. This comes directly from 539 00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:55.519 that third Council ephesis. The head of the whole faith, 540 00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:57.640 the head of the Apostles, is Blessed Peter. This is 541 00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:01.680 not an honorific this is direct. Cyril of Alexandria, who's 542 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:06.720 the one wrote writing the Pope asking him to excommunicate 543 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:09.279 what would become the number two in the church, says, 544 00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:12.240 we rely on the authority of the Blessed Apostle Peter, 545 00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:15.240 on whom the church was founded, and whose successor, the 546 00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:19.079 blessed Pope Celestine is. He writes directly to Pope Celestine, 547 00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:21.519 and he says, your holiness, who holds the place of Peter, 548 00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:24.680 the Prince of the Apostles. They're all princes in a sense, 549 00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:28.119 but Peter's Prince of princes has rightly judged this matter 550 00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:32.680 and condemned this Storius. In what honorary sense would you 551 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.480 appeal to someone and say, fire this guy, excommunicate this guy, 552 00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:41.400 which is an extra important firing. You wouldn't. It's absurd. 553 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.079 At the Council of Chalcedon, the very next council, after 554 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:50.279 Pope Leo's tone is read, it says Peter has spoken 555 00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:54.160 through Leo, showing that there's a lineage, a very direct lineage, 556 00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:57.200 and it's Peter the prince. Leo's now the prince. Because, 557 00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:00.559 by the way, at this Fourth Ecumenical Council, it shows 558 00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:05.240 the epistemic flaw in Orthodoxy. You know that it's circular. 559 00:30:05.319 --> 00:30:08.400 The councilors are ecumenical when we accept them, but only 560 00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:12.359 the accepted councils are ecumenical. There is another group, the 561 00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:17.039 Oriental Orthodox, who broke away and they never accepted the 562 00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:21.400 Fourth Ecumenical Council. We have what we Catholics have a 563 00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:24.200 way we agree with the the Eastern Orthodox. This is 564 00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:26.319 a valid council. We agree with each other about that. 565 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:27.720 We have a way to show it. We have a 566 00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:31.440 visible sign of unity. We know that synods all have heads. 567 00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:34.880 The Orthodox can't the Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox and the 568 00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:39.039 Oriental Orthodox are still at odds over the fourth Ecumenical 569 00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:43.160 Council Constantinople three. Uh, Peter is Prince of the Apostles 570 00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:46.079 who continues the promise undefiled to the end. And I 571 00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:50.720 see it too. Primacial authority every jay agrees with this council. 572 00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:54.519 Primacial authority everywhere on earth was given by the Redeemer 573 00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:58.079 of the world himself to the Apostle Peter Constantinople four. 574 00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:01.880 It's their council. It reads the letter of Pope John 575 00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:04.200 the eighth, the chief of the Apostles. Peter has the 576 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:10.720 authority of universal binding and loosing. This is indisputable that 577 00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:13.200 at the time of the founding of the Church and 578 00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:16.680 the immediate chain of evidence thereafter for the next seven councils, 579 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:22.000 you have a universal appellate jurisdiction of the Pope, which 580 00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:25.279 is why he could excommunicate, and he was being sought 581 00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:26.279 for excommunication. 582 00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:29.920 All right, you're gonna complete your thoughts there, because I 583 00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:31.640 think we probably should haven't on the time right there? 584 00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:33.799 What's it that we should probably on the time? Already 585 00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:35.359 in the bleed, you're hitting towards a minute. If you 586 00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:36.839 one another minute, you don't have to concede a minute 587 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:37.440 on the next round. 588 00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:42.319 Uh no, that's fine, all right. 589 00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:44.200 There with the opening statements, I want to one in 590 00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:47.039 the chat if you think that you know, we're getting 591 00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:50.640 to a point to where you think that Timothy had 592 00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:53.160 a better opening statement right there, or two in the chat, 593 00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:55.759 if you think that Jay had a better statement, Let's 594 00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:57.720 go right into the rebuttal. We'll read some super chats. 595 00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:02.400 After the rebuttal, I think we'll just go yeah, we'll 596 00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:02.799 go to Jay. 597 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:03.200 Jay. 598 00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:07.200 From that opening statement, you're writing down some questions. Give 599 00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:09.160 me your best rebuttal. I'm going to reset the clock 600 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:12.039 to put it down to five minutes. Let's try to 601 00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:14.039 keep it tight at five and not go over in 602 00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:16.640 any bleed. You can't have a thirty second bleed if 603 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:19.240 you need, I'm resetting it to a standard time. 604 00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:20.960 You can begin now. 605 00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:21.720 Yeah. 606 00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:23.960 Well, the reason that I didn't go into the question 607 00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:27.000 about Matthew and the passages in the Book of John 608 00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:30.400 or Luke or whatever is that we don't disagree that 609 00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:34.200 there's apostolic succession from Peter, but I don't know if 610 00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:36.680 he's aware of it. Peter is actually called the father 611 00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:39.200 of three Ce's. In fact, you can read Pope saying 612 00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:42.599 Gregory the Great in his letter number forty where he 613 00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:47.839 talks about the Apostolic see being three chairs, so as 614 00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:50.279 late as Gregory the Great in his day, he's still 615 00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:55.880 calling Rome, Antioch and Alexandria the patrine sea. So nobody 616 00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:59.400 disagrees that Rome is first. And he cited St. Erin 617 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:01.839 As and against heresies, but he didn't tell you why. 618 00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:05.119 Irenaeus says that it is given this honor and authority. 619 00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:08.480 He says it is doubly apostolic Peter and Paul. Maybe 620 00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:10.440 he's not aware of the fact that by the time 621 00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:13.160 of Vatican One they actually reject the position of the 622 00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:16.559 argumentation of St. Aernaeus that you cannot say that Rome 623 00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:19.920 has its supremacy because of Paul in any sense. So 624 00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:22.160 even though Paul is honored still in Rome because he 625 00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:25.279 was martyred. There the only reason that Rome has this 626 00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:31.279 supposed indefectibility, it's universal jurisdiction and so forth, is supposedly 627 00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:35.920 because of a petrine tradition and terrorism. However, Pope saying 628 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.799 Gregory the Great, who himself was a pope, doesn't have 629 00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:41.839 a problem still talking about there being three petrine seas. 630 00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:43.279 But of course Roman Catholics never. 631 00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:45.759 Talk about that because they don't give you the context 632 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:48.480 behind these comments. In these statements, let me read what 633 00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:52.240 the Canon six of Nicia actually says. It says, let 634 00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:56.920 the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pantapolis prevail. Now 635 00:33:57.079 --> 00:33:59.880 noe the references to customs. There's no reference to a 636 00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:03.640 divine terrorism, to divine law. It's only two ancient customs 637 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:06.839 that in all of these the Bishop Alexandria has jurisdiction 638 00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.800 since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome. Likewise, 639 00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:14.119 in Antioch and other provinces. He just assumed that Rome 640 00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:17.679 was a universal and so it just doesn't really count. 641 00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:22.119 But the jurisdictions are being likened to Rome, and his 642 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:23.679 argument is just that, well, but yeah, but of course 643 00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:27.679 everybody knows that Rome was universal jurisdictions really because he's 644 00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:31.360 not aware of the fact that appellate structure and the 645 00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:35.719 synod and Canons of Sartica actually prove our position, because 646 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.679 what Sartoka says is not that the Roman bishop has 647 00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:43.119 the final say. Rather, they actually say that the Roman 648 00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:47.000 bishop could be appealed to as well as other patriarchs 649 00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:48.920 and bishops can be appealed to and we're appealed to 650 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:52.800 and he can order a retrial in that jurisdiction. It 651 00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:57.119 is the opposite of the Vatican one papal autocracy position. 652 00:34:57.239 --> 00:35:00.400 Allow me to read his own Vatican statement from the 653 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:03.480 Chi eighty document, which he should have read. Over the centuries, 654 00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.159 many appeals were made to the Bishop of Rome from 655 00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:09.960 the East in disciplinary matters, such as the deposition of 656 00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:12.360 a bishop. An attempt was made at Sartika in three 657 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.320 forty three to establish the rules for this procedure. Sartica 658 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:17.280 was received of the Council of Trello in six pot 659 00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:20.079 ninety two, which his church rejects. The Canons of Sartaka 660 00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:22.440 determined that a bishop who has been condemned could appeal 661 00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:24.679 to the Bishop of Rome, and that in the latter, 662 00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:28.719 if he did, inappropriate, might order a retrial. Oh, that's 663 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:31.199 not the autocratic Vatican One view that he was arguing 664 00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:33.599 for that he hoped would be the kill shot. Rather, 665 00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:36.519 this could be conducted by the bishops and the province 666 00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:41.360 neighboring that person's bishop. Appeals regarding these matters were all disciplinary. 667 00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:45.519 Matters were also made to Constantinople and to other sees. 668 00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:50.400 Oh dang, that's Snodl. That's collegial. By the way, Athanasius 669 00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:52.320 and people who are in these situations to read the 670 00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:54.559 letters of Saint Basil. As I mentioned earlier, he wasn't 671 00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:58.039 aware of the Malician schism, and as Denny notes in 672 00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:03.639 the chapter in Papalism, constantinople One had called and closed 673 00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:07.599 outside of commune with Rome, and in fact, later centuries later, 674 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:10.239 Rome accepts constantinople One retroactively. 675 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:11.559 That's a problem for his position. 676 00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:14.199 But out of all this, I would amind him that 677 00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:17.039 he seems to not be aware of Pope Vigilius and 678 00:36:17.079 --> 00:36:20.320 the really strong case that we have there. As Ubi 679 00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:23.079 brought up to Ibarra, if you remember Arbara saying, oh. 680 00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:26.320 I haven't found actually a good answer to that question yet, 681 00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:29.960 but we'll come moot the way it eventually. Maybe Why 682 00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:33.559 is this? Why is Vigilius such a key point? Virgilius 683 00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:39.840 submitted to the Ecumenical Council after reversing his position four 684 00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:43.199 different times. So wait a minute, let me get this right. 685 00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:45.880 Vatican one, which says that the Roman bishop is the 686 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:48.920 head of all the churches, has universal jurisdiction, even though 687 00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.079 his own Vatican documents like the Chieti document admit that 688 00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:53.400 the Roman bishop didn't. 689 00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:55.559 Have universal jurisdiction in the first thousand years. 690 00:36:56.039 --> 00:36:59.000 Now Virgilius has to submit to and does submit to 691 00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:02.559 the ecumenical count's judgment and being removed from the diptys. 692 00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:06.079 That's a problem position for him and for Ericubara. I 693 00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:11.119 don't have to prove every single specific to disprove rom Catholicism. 694 00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:15.760 All I need is one dogmatic contradiction or one papal 695 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:19.159 failure such as Vigilia submitted to a council, which shows 696 00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:23.519 that Vatican One is false, that ecumenical councils are inferior 697 00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:26.519 to and always subordinate to the Pope, to prove his 698 00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:29.840 position is false, just like when he tried to cite 699 00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:33.440 other examples like well, Orthodox don't have any position that's 700 00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:34.280 really consistent. 701 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:35.639 Wait a minute. 702 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:39.920 Latter in six forty nine condemned monothelitism and was intended 703 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:43.559 by Pope Martin to be an ecumenical council, and yet 704 00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:46.360 it was not accepted as an ecumenical council. And there 705 00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:51.000 was another council that happened called Constantinople III, where they 706 00:37:51.079 --> 00:37:55.719 themselves decided to condemn the positions based on investigating the 707 00:37:55.719 --> 00:37:58.719 theology of Saint Maximus. It's not Pope Saint Martin that 708 00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:03.199 is the key to side figure of Constantinople three, which 709 00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:06.199 if the Vatican One papacy position were true, he would 710 00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:09.719 have already solved the issue Roma spoken cases closed supposedly, 711 00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:12.000 we're told right, But he also doesn't seem to be 712 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:14.199 aware that if you'd read on the history of Chalcedon, 713 00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:18.559 Roma spoken cases closed isn't actually because Leo is the 714 00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:21.199 standard and test of orthodoxy at Calcedon. If you'd read 715 00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:23.400 any of the academic literature on it, he would know that. 716 00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:27.159 Even his Roman Catholic scholars admit that Cyril is the 717 00:38:27.199 --> 00:38:32.079 standard of orthodoxy at Calcedon, and Leo is checked against 718 00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:36.079 Cyril by Chalcedon. For many weeks, Orsi me many days 719 00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:39.519 investigating to see if the tone matches up to Leo. 720 00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:44.400 Now I disproved his position by pointing out one dogmatic 721 00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:49.039 contradiction amongst many, which was that for centuries you had 722 00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:51.159 to believe in the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop. 723 00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:53.719 You didn't have to believe it for centuries before that, 724 00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:55.960 and now we don't have to believe it anymore. Past 725 00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:59.320 Vatican two in the religious liberty and ecumenist pronouncements. 726 00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:01.559 That's a kind tradiction. All right, I'm gonna give you 727 00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:04.000 an extra minute because he took an extra minute. Go ahead, Timothy, 728 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:05.719 I'm gonna reset the clock. Give me one moment to 729 00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:09.679 add an extra minute and reset. Okay, you have six 730 00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:11.920 minutes on the clock for your rebuttal go ahead. 731 00:39:12.039 --> 00:39:17.719 There's absolutely no dogmatic contradiction, so that can two. We 732 00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:22.760 have an ecumenical Council that happens after the fall of 733 00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:25.679 the Holy Roman Empire, after the fall of all of 734 00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:29.239 the confessional states on earth, so only the confessional states 735 00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:32.840 are bound, because of course secular states can't be bound 736 00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:35.199 by the pope. The Pope can tell them what to do, 737 00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:37.800 but they're not going to do it. This was always 738 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:41.960 the context of this discipline. It's a discipline anyway. By 739 00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:44.760 the way, the Pope has only in the last thousand 740 00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:51.119 years identifiably spoken ex cathedral making doctrine twice twice count 741 00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:54.440 them twice, one in around eighteen fifty one, around nineteen 742 00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:58.440 fifty and in both of those cases the Pope pulled 743 00:39:58.519 --> 00:40:02.079 all of the bishops first. Because this is what's consistent 744 00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:04.719 with the papal power going all the way back to Peter, 745 00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:09.159 he pulled to make sure that he did not make 746 00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:12.840 an ex cathedral statement, or in eighteen fifty four and 747 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:16.360 then in nineteen fifty one, the only two ex cathedral 748 00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:22.480 statements that would disprove the papacy by being wrong. He 749 00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:26.159 polled all of the bishops because there's collegial brethren, and 750 00:40:26.199 --> 00:40:29.159 then he named the third and the fourth Marion dogma 751 00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:31.719 ex cathedral. So Jay's always just skipping over the fact 752 00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:35.199 that the pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. 753 00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:38.679 This is a most fundamental claim. And by the way, 754 00:40:39.079 --> 00:40:43.320 popes can be heretics, whether you're talking about Honorious or 755 00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:47.800 other problematic popes that were borderline heretics throughout the way. 756 00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:51.159 Most of the majority of Catholic scholars think that popes 757 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:54.840 can actually be heretics. They just can't contradict themselves when 758 00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:57.719 they're speaking ex cathedra. And this would be really clear 759 00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:01.239 if Jay had read the Rolazzio of bish Gasser at 760 00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:05.760 Vatican One. It's very, very, very consistent with the collegial 761 00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:12.320 papacy of the previous eighteen one hundred years. Now there 762 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:18.679 are I would say in exegiting Matthew Chapter sixteen, Luke 763 00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:22.880 twenty two, John twenty one. There are Eastern scholars, Theodor 764 00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:27.880 Studit Abu Karah who exegited exactly the way that we do. 765 00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:32.880 Antioch and Alexandria also succeed Peter because Mark went on 766 00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:37.840 to Alexandria. Peter used to be at Antioch. It's very, 767 00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:43.880 very very clear that we're not reading into the text. 768 00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:44.599 Now. 769 00:41:44.599 --> 00:41:48.400 The question at hand is did Christ establish a binding, 770 00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:55.440 unifying papacy. I've shown through the scripture through Patristic scholars 771 00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:58.360 in the first two centuries that he did. One of 772 00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:03.519 the very first popes after literally was exercising a jurisdiction 773 00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:07.119 at several of the ecumenical councils, you had an appeal 774 00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:09.800 to the appellate jurisdiction of Rome. I'm not just gonna 775 00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:13.400 sit here and repeat the quotations from the ACTA of 776 00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:19.599 those councils where they're saying Rome alone, knowing that doctrinal 777 00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:24.639 unity requires a visible sign. So, like I said, the 778 00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:30.079 original argument is, if Christ established a papacy, then if 779 00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:33.760 that papacy should fail, all of Christianity fails. That's just 780 00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:36.079 a fact. Now, if he didn't establish the papacy, then 781 00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:39.519 that wouldn't be the case. But pointing out historical difficulties, 782 00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:41.840 even if I granted him, which I don't later in 783 00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:47.119 the timeline, doesn't accomplish what Jay claims it does. So 784 00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:50.760 if Christ established the papacy, then prevailing would require not 785 00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:54.119 that Catholicism is false, but Christianity is. Remember like Back 786 00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:58.480 to the Future too, when Doc explains to Marty by 787 00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:00.559 use of a chalkboard, why they wound up in an 788 00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:04.360 altered nineteen eighty five, Because the source of the problematic 789 00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:06.519 timeline lay at the very beginning of the story in 790 00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:09.920 nineteen fifty five. If you want to disprove the papacy, 791 00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:12.360 you have to go to the beginning of the story 792 00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:16.440 and show that Christ didn't establish a papacy. You can't 793 00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:18.719 just sit and if you're a Christian anyway, you can't 794 00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:22.039 sit around and point out what you don't like about 795 00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:26.000 Pope Francis sheady document not a magisterial document, by the way, 796 00:43:26.360 --> 00:43:33.840 definitely not infallible. It can't point at any of the 797 00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:36.000 documents that Jay is going to tonight to get to 798 00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:38.760 the beginning of the timeline. In the case of Christianity, 799 00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:43.960 the papacy was from the very beginning universally accepted occasionally 800 00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:46.639 grudgingly by these But they accepted it for a thousand years. 801 00:43:47.320 --> 00:43:49.719 I mean this should be more compelling to people that 802 00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:52.760 are passive standers by. Why was it accepted for a 803 00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:54.800 thousand years? Over a thousand years, and then it was 804 00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:57.239 just okay not to They just hope you don't see 805 00:43:57.239 --> 00:44:01.519 that fact. There's a brute fact established beyond any doubt, 806 00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:04.199 not even Jay's going to disagree with me. Was accepted 807 00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:07.199 for over half of the timeline of Christianity, and now 808 00:44:07.239 --> 00:44:11.599 they just whistle past the fact that it's no longer accepted. 809 00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:16.159 Instead Eastern orthodoxy. You'll never hear a defense of this 810 00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:20.000 because it's a coherentist rather than a foundationalist position. Jay's 811 00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:21.760 not trying to build anything, He's just trying to poke 812 00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:26.440 holes in the papacy. They insist on a popeless ecclesiology, 813 00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:30.679 one with wilful blindness about its own thousand year acceptance 814 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:34.519 of the pontificate until they didn't want to anymore. Who's epistemology, 815 00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:39.960 which is really just conciliarism, A valid council's ecumenical We 816 00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:43.559 know that it's ecumenical because we deem its valid destroys 817 00:44:43.559 --> 00:44:46.719 itself for all to see. Like at Chalcedon when you 818 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:50.079 had the Oriental Orthodox break away from the Eastern Orthodox. 819 00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:54.920 They still don't agree about much. It's a circular rule 820 00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:58.880 of faith, and you're never going to hear them build 821 00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:01.719 this up, the circular rule of faith, because it's indefensible. 822 00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:04.800 Their hierarchy can and does fall into heresy. This is 823 00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:07.599 not just too quoque way. They're not bound to accept 824 00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:11.400 ecumenical councils. The councils are ecumenical when we accept them, 825 00:45:11.480 --> 00:45:13.880 and the accepted councils are ecumenical. This is the rule 826 00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:16.360 of faith if you really press on Orthodoxy at all. 827 00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:20.519 There is no epistemological framework for determining which councils are 828 00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:23.159 ecumenical and why that's not true in Roman Catholicism. In 829 00:45:23.239 --> 00:45:26.559 Roman Catholicism, we have this visible sign of unity, three 830 00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:31.800 scriptural passages, several of the of the early Fathers, interpreting 831 00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:34.960 them exactly the way we do. And with no living, 832 00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:38.440 visible authority or sign of unity, how is the Eastern 833 00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:42.239 Orthodox believer to know which councils to accept. They simply 834 00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:44.599 won't tell you this well, because it's just true. You 835 00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:46.360 just have to accept it as true. It's a question 836 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:50.360 begging Roman Catholics have the papacy to tell us, and no, 837 00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:52.760 we don't just accept the papacy blindly. We accept it 838 00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:58.159 because Christ established it. So circularity ends up being embraced 839 00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:01.639 as a kind of theological history because this is the 840 00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:06.800 last resort. For example, the rejection of Florence. Florence was 841 00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:10.440 the Reunion Council in fourteen thirty nine. Thirty one out 842 00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:13.960 of thirty three of their delegates at Florence signed it 843 00:46:14.039 --> 00:46:16.119 and said we were wrong about the Philly Oakuay, we 844 00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:19.639 were wrong about the papacy. And then they went home 845 00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:23.000 in ten twelve, fourteen years later, had a revolt and 846 00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:26.559 under duress, were forced to undo it. And you ask them, 847 00:46:26.559 --> 00:46:29.039 how do you know that council wasn't ecumenical because we 848 00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:33.039 didn't like the outcome. It's that simple, all right. 849 00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:35.280 I only hear us one's in the chat. 850 00:46:35.320 --> 00:46:38.840 By the way, if if you think that Timothy Gordon 851 00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:41.360 had the better rebuttal, and I like to see two's 852 00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:43.880 in the chats. If you think Jay Dyer had the 853 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:46.440 better rebuttal, will be give them a second to get 854 00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:49.719 ready for their cross examination. Just to read a couple 855 00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:53.559 of the super chats here, Tiaguinowski said orthodox were actually. 856 00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:56.039 The first Protestants. Lonian S. 857 00:46:57.519 --> 00:46:58.920 Just said, they want to tell you, Gordon that the 858 00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:02.760 Orientals and Assyrians don't have autocratic popes that had bishops 859 00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:05.719 are first among equals, just like the eoposition the fourth century. 860 00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:08.599 They didn't have RC papism in mind either. 861 00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:14.239 Orthodoxy Phrenosis said Roman Catholicism has the papacy, Orthodoxy has 862 00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:16.960 the church only one heels taint. 863 00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:19.960 Nothing, said Tim, That's just a fact, Gordon. 864 00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:23.320 We have Lauren first that popes can be material heretics, 865 00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:26.480 but not formal, and we've certainly had our share of 866 00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:30.119 material heresies in the last six decades from popes. Plays 867 00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:31.679 on the right thing. Also, the pope is a local, 868 00:47:31.719 --> 00:47:34.760 metropolitan and universal bishop. The Canon six of Nicea is 869 00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:37.199 simply referring to the pope's metropolitan duties. 870 00:47:37.480 --> 00:47:38.280 No contradiction. 871 00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:42.320 We also have Orthodoxy, Chloroquins, and Orthodox and Muslim countries 872 00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:46.400 have zero World Cups and a debate. God doesn't like 873 00:47:47.239 --> 00:47:52.679 schismatics or heretics. Haydes Undead at twenty three sixty six 874 00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:55.119 said Jay despite being the oldest is still the best 875 00:47:55.480 --> 00:47:59.519 EDVA masterclass rapper on this show. I appreciate all the work. Jay, 876 00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:02.639 you're killing it as always. Jamie owes you an octople 877 00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:06.400 espresso shot. I can witness that I did. I remember 878 00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:08.400 he was here and he asked for coffee, and like 879 00:48:08.679 --> 00:48:11.039 most people, put a little milk in your coffee. Some 880 00:48:11.079 --> 00:48:14.320 people say it's gay, it is gay. It's very poppy 881 00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:16.599 to be gay today. But milk is good in coffee. 882 00:48:16.639 --> 00:48:19.440 And then he said he just wanted coffee and proceeded 883 00:48:19.559 --> 00:48:22.559 just like just shoot like double espressos into a cup 884 00:48:22.599 --> 00:48:27.199 of rice. He just ate like bitter dark espresso that 885 00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:29.239 burns his throat. It's the kind of man that he is. 886 00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:33.599 It's good stuff. You're just seeing the way his wife 887 00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:35.000 was looking at him, was just down. 888 00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:35.519 In that coffee. 889 00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:40.960 What a chad colveto Antiquity said, as prought with the 890 00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:45.559 following j one ask you're not even done? Ask cast 891 00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:48.199 seven seven seven cent fifty dollars. Thank you so much 892 00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:49.719 for I said, why does the pope wear a little 893 00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:51.000 hat and kiss the silly wall? 894 00:48:52.599 --> 00:48:54.239 That's more of a rhetorical question, for sure. 895 00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:57.559 Mike Hanson twenty three ninety three said, win Jay, Tim, 896 00:48:57.599 --> 00:48:59.199 the greatest moment of twenty twenty five would be to 897 00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:01.639 see you and your wife come home to the Orthodox Church. 898 00:49:02.119 --> 00:49:05.280 May God guide your journey, Bro. You also have a 899 00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:05.760 couple here. 900 00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:08.760 Another Australian said, can confirm life essence from mister Fista 901 00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:11.880 is still spirriting from Joe Rogan. He has not passed 902 00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:13.840 away yet. Jesus will not take him until he's fought 903 00:49:14.119 --> 00:49:19.320 liver King. We also have Edgy eb one six one 904 00:49:19.400 --> 00:49:21.840 Oho said rock paper scissors, lizard spock. 905 00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:24.000 It's all so clear now. 906 00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:29.400 And then we have a Nathan Slippery said if a 907 00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:31.440 woman is graped, she's passively graping the man. 908 00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:34.440 Tim's theology. All right, we will okay. 909 00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:36.440 Else read one more scalf seven seven seven el sad 910 00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:39.039 twenty dollars and said why does the pope pray and 911 00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:40.039 synagogues and musk? 912 00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:41.280 There's a lot of questions about that. 913 00:49:41.320 --> 00:49:46.320 All right, we are going to go to the cross examination. 914 00:49:47.159 --> 00:49:50.039 We will start with mister J. Dyer. 915 00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:53.159 You will have five minutes on the clock. Give me 916 00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:59.519 a moment here, let me reset the clock. You may begin. 917 00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:01.239 Yeah. 918 00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:03.480 First, I want to note that he seemed to be 919 00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:07.639 saying that there's only guidance and infallibility when it comes 920 00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:09.760 to exca theater statements. He must not be aware of 921 00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:12.480 the fact that Vatican one says that all things are 922 00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:15.280 divinely revealed and to be believed, whether in the Word 923 00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:18.000 of God handed down by the Church in solemn judgments, 924 00:50:18.039 --> 00:50:21.679 which would be ex cathedral by her ordinary, and universal teaching, 925 00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:25.280 which is proposed for belief as having been divinely revealed. 926 00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:27.519 So do you agree that you also have to believe 927 00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:29.639 the universal ordinary teaching and the execa theater. 928 00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:32.280 They're both under the charism you have the submission in 929 00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:36.199 mind and will. That's religious, but it's not it's not 930 00:50:36.280 --> 00:50:38.760 protected by the charism of infallibility. 931 00:50:38.840 --> 00:50:43.360 Universal Ordinary isn't universal ordinary? Are you talking about councils 932 00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:46.920 or popes? Universal ordinary teaching? Teaching of popes is not 933 00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:48.760 is not infallible. 934 00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:51.119 That's what Vatican one says. No, it does. Yes, do 935 00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:53.639 me to read it again, Vatican again. 936 00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:58.320 I'm gonna read Vatican one Ordinary Universal Ordinary teaching. There's 937 00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:01.000 three structure. Do you disagree with your own and theological manuals? 938 00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:04.119 Of course, not to talk about the three tiers. No, 939 00:51:04.199 --> 00:51:08.599 that's that's really fine. Okay, So there's ordinary magisterium. There's 940 00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:12.400 extraordinary magisterium and there's universal ordinary magisterium. So I think 941 00:51:12.400 --> 00:51:15.840 you're confusing the ordinary and the universal ordinary because. 942 00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:20.119 We're talking papal magisterium. That's the only magisterium. Only the 943 00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:24.880 papacy is magisterium. No, so you think that ex cathedra, 944 00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:32.039 he thinks ex cathedra means which guarantees that extraordinary only two. 945 00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:35.880 No, I'm asking you about Vatican one saying that universal 946 00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:39.119 ordinary teaching is also part of the terrorism. 947 00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:43.679 It's part of the keroism, so it's not protected under infallible. 948 00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:47.360 So the terrorism is an infallible No. So the so 949 00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:49.639 you just get refuge doing it again. You're doing it 950 00:51:49.639 --> 00:51:51.320 again when you slip up. It's my fault. 951 00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:54.320 No, you think that ex cathedral teachings by the pope 952 00:51:54.519 --> 00:51:59.519 the sole papal teachings that enjoy the terrorism of infallibility. 953 00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:03.480 Vatican one says that the Pattican one does not say. So, 954 00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:05.360 I'm reading it to you right now. You have to 955 00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:06.519 read thee. 956 00:52:07.639 --> 00:52:09.599 All right. If you think you're interrupting that, almost stop 957 00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:10.079 for a second. 958 00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:13.199 Well, furthermore, all things are to be believed with divine 959 00:52:13.239 --> 00:52:16.760 Catholic faith contained in the Word of God written or 960 00:52:16.760 --> 00:52:20.800 handed down. Yes, which the church either by solemn judgment. 961 00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:23.920 That's ex cathedral. That's not yes, it is. It's a 962 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:27.880 solemn judgment of solemn judgment. It's religious submission in mind 963 00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:30.159 and will. No, you're misunderstanding. 964 00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:33.719 This is talking about ex cathedral or the Universal Ordinary 965 00:52:33.719 --> 00:52:36.400 Magisterium as divinely revealed. 966 00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:39.840 Both of them to bishops. Both of them. You're talking 967 00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:42.400 about bishops. This is talking about the Roman sees. 968 00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:45.679 Two things that are that are protected by the terrorism 969 00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:48.159 extraordinary and ex cathedral. 970 00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:52.559 You're wrong on this. Ordinary. You're just flat wrong. Ordinary 971 00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:56.480 and universal is all bishops, not just pope. You're wrong. 972 00:52:56.559 --> 00:53:00.079 You understand wrong, your own your own manuals teach the 973 00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:00.599 there's three. 974 00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:05.920 There's three. I know that. What are the three? What 975 00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:07.480 are the three? Read them to me? Well, I thought 976 00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:10.239 you knew. No, I do know. But you're trying to 977 00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:11.239 say that the three. 978 00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:15.440 Cathedral is is uh, that ex cathedral is not the 979 00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:18.599 only way that a pope can speak from the chair 980 00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:23.480 with the charism of Yes. It's called universal Ordinary Magisterium 981 00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:25.360 and it's not the ordinary magisterium. No. 982 00:53:26.159 --> 00:53:30.360 Yes, you're you're just right here. You're lying show it 983 00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:30.559 to me. 984 00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:34.599 Ordinary magisterium is the regular teaching of the building. 985 00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:36.559 I'm not like, can I see it? I'm going to 986 00:53:36.639 --> 00:53:39.239 read it to you, the ordinary teaching of the bishops. 987 00:53:40.119 --> 00:53:41.920 That's or tell me what orinary magistrate is. 988 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:42.760 You don't want to see it? 989 00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:44.800 You want to see it? I want to. Yeah, this 990 00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:48.199 gives me timpoole situation. Yeah, so I can explain to 991 00:53:48.199 --> 00:53:52.599 you what these are ordinary magisterium, individual bishop groupings of bishop, 992 00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:55.960 Bishop of Rome. This is ordinary. This is not protected 993 00:53:56.320 --> 00:54:03.440 by extraordinary magic. There's no protect protectionist college issuing a 994 00:54:03.480 --> 00:54:09.320 solemn definition while it protected. Yes, that's what I'm. 995 00:54:09.239 --> 00:54:12.079 Arguing, that's the college of No, you're talking about the pope. 996 00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:15.039 I said, that's not the pope, that pope, And you 997 00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:19.280 said it's not the bishops, the Bishop of Rose issuing 998 00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:20.840 a solemn definition. 999 00:54:21.079 --> 00:54:22.480 You know that two of the. 1000 00:54:25.480 --> 00:54:29.039 Two of you're deflecting two of the three are protected 1001 00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:29.840 by the terrorism. 1002 00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:33.039 No, yes they are one of them. Council one of 1003 00:54:33.039 --> 00:54:37.599 them can the pope speaking? Councils are protected the Pope speaking, 1004 00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:40.800 But there's only one way that speak. Ex Cathedral read 1005 00:54:40.840 --> 00:54:42.920 the bottom one, Jay read the bottom one. 1006 00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:47.559 The universal ordinary magisterium, according to Vatican one, is said 1007 00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:52.079 to be ordinaries. Pope, stop interrupting me. There's two things 1008 00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:54.320 that are protected by the Chroism of Peter according to 1009 00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:59.679 Vatican one, solemn judgments or her ordinary Universal teaching, both 1010 00:54:59.679 --> 00:55:01.280 of the ease solemn judgments. 1011 00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:02.920 Interrupting me, Yeah. 1012 00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:07.360 Let him finish the statement. Let let him finish the 1013 00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:09.480 statement trying to make a statement, and then we'll end. 1014 00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:10.880 You have sorry, I'm not trying to interrupt you. 1015 00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:16.159 You can't handle this for a second. Ahead and finish 1016 00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:18.079 the last statement. You have thirty extra seconds. 1017 00:55:18.159 --> 00:55:22.800 These two things, solemn judgments and the ordinary Universal Teaching, 1018 00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:26.440 are divinely revealed and protected according to this. 1019 00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:27.599 Can I see it now? 1020 00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:30.480 Can I? Can I rebuke? You know he's just but 1021 00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:34.639 he's darning out the time. Now keep going. He doesn't 1022 00:55:34.639 --> 00:55:37.400 want I can explain it to you explain it because 1023 00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:38.920 I'm cross examined me on it. 1024 00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:41.760 Hey, the only statements he's supposed to be asking me 1025 00:55:41.800 --> 00:55:42.199 a question. 1026 00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:45.079 Well, he hasn't gotten made a mistake. 1027 00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:48.639 Trying to run from the Universal magisterial teaching. No, you 1028 00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:50.079 are cas statement. 1029 00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:54.639 So the only statements by popes in under Vatican one 1030 00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:57.000 in pastory turnis the only. 1031 00:55:57.000 --> 00:55:58.360 Single one off you didn't read. 1032 00:55:58.840 --> 00:56:02.679 You didn't read the whole document the said otherwise universal 1033 00:56:03.679 --> 00:56:08.280 universal Ordinary Magisterium. According to Vatican one, is also protected 1034 00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:11.400 under the terrorism I told him not air popes. 1035 00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:16.360 Ordinarily, popes in their ordinary have to be followed with. 1036 00:56:18.199 --> 00:56:21.639 Answer the questions. Don't want some time to ask the 1037 00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:22.159 one question? 1038 00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:24.280 Why are you not answering questions? What's the question? 1039 00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:24.960 Answer? Answer? 1040 00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:28.360 You know what the question was hot the time? Yeah, 1041 00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:31.679 thank you the question. Ask the question you screwed up? 1042 00:56:32.199 --> 00:56:35.719 How did I screw up? Because there's only one infallible 1043 00:56:35.760 --> 00:56:36.960 way a pope can speak. 1044 00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:40.559 That's not that's not what the question was. 1045 00:56:41.599 --> 00:56:45.119 The question simply right now, and then he can't say 1046 00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:47.000 he didn't he didn't hear it, or he can't can't 1047 00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:49.440 dodge it, and he'll answer it and then we'll be fine. 1048 00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:49.679 There. 1049 00:56:49.719 --> 00:56:52.039 You got to get one teaches that there are two, 1050 00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:55.239 which is two of this three that are protected by 1051 00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:59.320 the petrion kerosm and by infallibility and by the Holy Spirit. 1052 00:56:59.800 --> 00:57:03.159 What one of them is ex cathedral, the other one 1053 00:57:03.280 --> 00:57:11.400 is ordinary universal teaching the thing, Council, Stop interrupt freaking council, dude, 1054 00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:13.920 you're reading it all right, I'm reading it wrong when 1055 00:57:13.960 --> 00:57:14.559 I read. 1056 00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:16.679 It literally, you're not understanding. 1057 00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:19.360 No, you don't know your own documents because this isn't 1058 00:57:19.360 --> 00:57:20.360 part of postertornity. 1059 00:57:20.519 --> 00:57:22.679 This is a different You don't know it. I do 1060 00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:25.039 know it. Okay, let's let's let's switch this up because 1061 00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:25.880 you don't want to do this. 1062 00:57:26.119 --> 00:57:31.400 Tell me in the first thing, stop why can you 1063 00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:32.440 not answer the questions? 1064 00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:35.119 You are literally the worst at this, Jay, this is 1065 00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:38.719 really bad, man. You got yourself trying to dig in. 1066 00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:44.440 It's a you won't you literally you your father, But 1067 00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:47.719 but ask the ask the question, don't interrupt him, and 1068 00:57:47.800 --> 00:57:50.159 then and then answer simply here we go. Go ahead 1069 00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:52.519 and finish your statement, question whatever you want to call it, 1070 00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:53.559 get it, get it out. 1071 00:57:53.599 --> 00:57:54.679 Don't say anyth until he's done. 1072 00:57:54.719 --> 00:57:56.280 When he said you say, I'm done, when you're done, 1073 00:57:56.599 --> 00:57:58.599 and then he'll come in and he'll he'll he'll respond, 1074 00:57:58.760 --> 00:57:59.840 and don't interrupt him either. 1075 00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:06.280 There's three levels. The level first that is and can 1076 00:58:06.480 --> 00:58:10.719 err is ordinary teaching. That's individual bishops, groups of bishops, 1077 00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:13.719 and even the Bishop of Rome. The next level is 1078 00:58:13.880 --> 00:58:19.440 the universal ordinary magisterial teaching, defined as in whenever the 1079 00:58:19.480 --> 00:58:23.480 college of bishops throughout the world issues a united judgment 1080 00:58:23.559 --> 00:58:27.800 with the Roman Pontiff to be held in faith and morals. Okay, 1081 00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:32.320 this one is protected by the charism of Peter according 1082 00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:33.199 to Vatican One. 1083 00:58:34.199 --> 00:58:38.920 Which one the one I just read? Oh my gosh, 1084 00:58:39.119 --> 00:58:40.199 do you want me to explain it? 1085 00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:44.880 No, because you don't know what you're talking about? 1086 00:58:45.800 --> 00:58:54.280 Then question, let's not let's your stupid positions. 1087 00:58:54.639 --> 00:58:55.519 I promise you're reading. 1088 00:58:56.360 --> 00:58:56.840 I'm reading it. 1089 00:58:57.119 --> 00:58:59.480 I'm literally reading the text, his own text, and I'm 1090 00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:01.000 reading it choir's interpretation. 1091 00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:03.880 Okay, Hey, let's okay, Ken and his mic for a second. 1092 00:59:04.000 --> 00:59:04.920 What do you mean his mike? Two? 1093 00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:07.280 Here's mike, and then I'm here his mike. When you 1094 00:59:07.320 --> 00:59:08.760 answer a right, mute his mike and then we'll talk. 1095 00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:12.079 We'll go here. Here we go. Go ahead. The MIC's muted. 1096 00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:13.119 You can say whatever its. 1097 00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:14.960 Just deflect him because he doesn't want to go into this, 1098 00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:18.920 because he's the god man. 1099 00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:22.199 Just just go all right, it's muted, go ahead and 1100 00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:23.760 go ahead. I guess it took a second there. 1101 00:59:23.800 --> 00:59:26.679 The first was the Ordinary Magisterium that can air the 1102 00:59:26.800 --> 00:59:30.079 ordinary teaching individual bishops groups of bishops. 1103 00:59:30.119 --> 00:59:30.760 Bishop of Rome. 1104 00:59:31.079 --> 00:59:34.920 The next level is the Universal Ordinary teaching whenever the 1105 00:59:34.920 --> 00:59:37.880 College of Bishops teaches anything in union with the Bishop 1106 00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:41.360 of Rome that, according to Vatican One, is literally said 1107 00:59:41.400 --> 00:59:46.559 right here to be believed by divine revelation and magisterium 1108 00:59:46.719 --> 00:59:50.639 ordinary universal teaching has to be believed, and thus it 1109 00:59:50.679 --> 00:59:53.400 cannot air. So the only one that could air was 1110 00:59:53.480 --> 00:59:58.039 the first one Ordinary teaching. Universal ordinary teaching, accordingy Vatican 1111 00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:02.559 One cannot air because just like the extraordinary or the 1112 01:00:02.679 --> 01:00:05.400 ex cathedral stuff, it is also protected. 1113 01:00:05.559 --> 01:00:07.840 Two of these are protected. The one is not. 1114 01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:11.400 What I want to know from you is, can you 1115 01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:14.320 give me an example in the first thousand years of 1116 01:00:14.719 --> 01:00:18.480 the Church where there's anything like what's in Unham Sanctam 1117 01:00:18.920 --> 01:00:22.639 or what is in uh Dictata's Pope, or all the 1118 01:00:22.639 --> 01:00:25.119 way up into the Syllabus of Errors showing that the 1119 01:00:25.159 --> 01:00:28.880 Bishop of Rome is a geopolitical world power and that. 1120 01:00:28.800 --> 01:00:30.400 You must believe that to be saved. 1121 01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:31.280 All right, Are you done? 1122 01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:31.599 Yes? 1123 01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:35.400 Because because I'm pointing out a contradiction in their teaching. 1124 01:00:35.480 --> 01:00:37.840 Okay, so now mute mute Jay's mike for a second 1125 01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:40.280 if you can, just because we're gonna be fair here, 1126 01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:41.400 we do up both sides here. 1127 01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:44.480 Just just get through this question. But the rebuttal. 1128 01:00:45.639 --> 01:00:48.360 As me ya ya yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, find of 1129 01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:49.239 this muting thing again. 1130 01:00:49.400 --> 01:00:50.840 No, I mean no, I mean if he doesn't want 1131 01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:52.159 you to, if he wants to, then yes, but you 1132 01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:53.840 know what, I'm to interrupt you, so I'm just but 1133 01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:55.199 I'm gonna try to be fair too. So it's just 1134 01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:57.519 with no interrupting here. We're gonna end it here because 1135 01:00:57.559 --> 01:01:00.360 we're over on the time on this. Go ahead, Jay, 1136 01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:01.559 and then just go to him and then we're just 1137 01:01:01.599 --> 01:01:03.119 going to get it a clear. 1138 01:01:02.960 --> 01:01:08.480 Okay, answer the question clearly, uh un, I'm sanctum is 1139 01:01:09.320 --> 01:01:12.559 a papal bowl, which is a lower level of magisterium 1140 01:01:12.559 --> 01:01:15.639 than you're thinking it is. And according to it, uh no, 1141 01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:19.960 there's not something in the first millennium that's quite like it. 1142 01:01:19.960 --> 01:01:23.079 It's not saying everyone must personally recognize the pope or 1143 01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:26.840 they're damned the way you're thinking it is. Instead, it's 1144 01:01:26.840 --> 01:01:31.320 asserting that salvation comes from Christ Church, and since the 1145 01:01:31.400 --> 01:01:34.199 Church is visible and hierarchical, submission to the pope is 1146 01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:39.119 the ordinary means of union with Christ's body. Now now 1147 01:01:39.880 --> 01:01:45.000 ordinary in because you asked me a question, this is 1148 01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:46.880 the physwer. 1149 01:01:46.280 --> 01:01:48.239 Full time he's answering your he's part of your time. 1150 01:01:48.440 --> 01:01:52.760 He's just answering you. Real fast answer, not real fast question. 1151 01:01:53.159 --> 01:01:55.079 You gotta you gotta, you gotta let me answer this 1152 01:01:55.679 --> 01:02:00.000 ordinary ordinary magisterium is there is no one's time. Ordinary 1153 01:02:00.159 --> 01:02:03.360 is the pope. Okay, Ordinary is the pope ordinary, and 1154 01:02:03.480 --> 01:02:08.199 universal is all bishops. An ordinary universal is protected. But 1155 01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:10.280 for bishops it's it's that. 1156 01:02:10.199 --> 01:02:16.000 It's just that clear, what Jake, All well, I'm not. 1157 01:02:16.400 --> 01:02:20.960 I mean, it's a complex looking charge. All right, it's difficult. 1158 01:02:21.480 --> 01:02:26.320 We're going to only one type of teaching that you keep. 1159 01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:31.719 People can all right, moving along, moving along here to 1160 01:02:31.719 --> 01:02:34.480 to your ability to go ahead and ask him questions 1161 01:02:34.559 --> 01:02:37.280 and go ahead and go there. He obviously don't feel 1162 01:02:37.320 --> 01:02:39.599 like he answered the question. You feel like he is 1163 01:02:39.599 --> 01:02:44.159 skating right, sorry, I mean his mic, Sorry, the boards shorted. 1164 01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:45.519 That's why it just messes up right now. 1165 01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:50.119 The last question was about the geopolitical power of the papacy, 1166 01:02:50.159 --> 01:02:53.159 which is not just an unam sanctum as necessary for salvation. 1167 01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:56.119 Its stated all the way up until the Syllabus of errors. 1168 01:02:56.280 --> 01:02:58.920 You tried to castigate that, to cast that as a 1169 01:02:59.000 --> 01:03:01.440 discipline that you're saying that it's not there in the 1170 01:03:01.480 --> 01:03:04.000 first souveny thousand years, but it was required for salvation. 1171 01:03:04.639 --> 01:03:08.000 The temporal power. Now I answered your question. I said no, 1172 01:03:08.039 --> 01:03:09.960 there's nothing. I said no, it was a it was 1173 01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:12.239 a yes no question. I said, no, there's nothing quite 1174 01:03:12.320 --> 01:03:15.639 like it. But what I followed up with is Boniface 1175 01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:20.000 the eighth language was sharpened by a political fight. And 1176 01:03:20.280 --> 01:03:23.039 this it's sharpened by a political situation. You guys in 1177 01:03:23.079 --> 01:03:26.199 the should understand this very well, because the emperors made 1178 01:03:26.239 --> 01:03:29.079 your decisions for most of even the latter. 1179 01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:34.280 Like the dramatic popes that were were political dramatic kings. 1180 01:03:34.440 --> 01:03:40.199 Catholic theology recognizes this principle. It recognized the principle apart 1181 01:03:40.239 --> 01:03:44.000 from polemical expression and the principle that it stands for. 1182 01:03:44.079 --> 01:03:46.480 The proposition it stands for is the unity of the 1183 01:03:46.559 --> 01:03:49.800 Church under the successor of Peter. So yes, that's defensive. 1184 01:03:49.880 --> 01:03:53.119 So there was no geopolitical power. It was necessary for 1185 01:03:53.199 --> 01:03:55.639 salvation belief in the first thousand years. 1186 01:03:55.679 --> 01:03:58.599 Thank you, not dogma. No, No, this is discipline. 1187 01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:01.840 It is it's stripped from the disciplin is it faith 1188 01:04:01.840 --> 01:04:03.239 in morals, it's rhetorical. 1189 01:04:03.639 --> 01:04:04.519 It's a lot of rhetoric. 1190 01:04:04.679 --> 01:04:10.079 It's disciplinary to get around papab a level magisterian. 1191 01:04:10.119 --> 01:04:14.199 It's all the way up in the errors. 1192 01:04:12.159 --> 01:04:20.079 What's the Roman sea I'm just explaining your your question 1193 01:04:20.119 --> 01:04:22.360 about I'm saying it's a papabull. 1194 01:04:22.440 --> 01:04:25.119 You thought it was more important than that. It's for 1195 01:04:25.239 --> 01:04:27.159 salvation for nine hundred years, and now it's not. 1196 01:04:27.239 --> 01:04:31.480 And it was necessary for salvation. The doctim says it's 1197 01:04:31.519 --> 01:04:36.760 necessary for salvation. Read that I'm necessary our salvation to 1198 01:04:36.800 --> 01:04:40.280 be subject to the Roman Pontiff, not just in spiritual matters. 1199 01:04:40.280 --> 01:04:43.440 The last paragraph of when I'm signed them is about 1200 01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:49.000 the temporal supremacy also being necessary to be saved. Okay, 1201 01:04:49.039 --> 01:04:52.480 it is absolutely necessary for salvation for every human being 1202 01:04:52.559 --> 01:04:55.119 to be subject to the Roman Pontiff in both the. 1203 01:04:55.079 --> 01:05:00.719 Temporal and the spiritual. That's so that refers to confessiontional states. 1204 01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:04.280 The context is confessional states. Did the Holy Roman Empire 1205 01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:04.920 still exist? 1206 01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:08.480 Then it says every human being must believe in the 1207 01:05:08.519 --> 01:05:10.840 context state, Okay, where was. 1208 01:05:10.840 --> 01:05:15.320 The temporal supremacy in the first thousand years? It didn't exist, No, 1209 01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:17.559 it did exist. Where where was this doctrine in the 1210 01:05:17.559 --> 01:05:19.320 first thou years? I mean, can you name a church 1211 01:05:19.400 --> 01:05:20.239 father that teaches it? 1212 01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:24.880 Can you name uh uh? Can you name a church 1213 01:05:24.960 --> 01:05:31.119 father that teaches this? I mean no, because it doesn't exist. Well, 1214 01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:34.199 so this is a development of the power. 1215 01:05:34.159 --> 01:05:36.880 Exactly its development. Now it's developed a way because do 1216 01:05:36.920 --> 01:05:40.599 we have to believe it? Believe it? The way it 1217 01:05:40.679 --> 01:05:41.280 developed was. 1218 01:05:41.800 --> 01:05:45.039 So anything that is a dogmatic contradition suddenly now disciplinary. 1219 01:05:45.960 --> 01:05:51.760 Yes, So that's exactly. Thank you. Well did you to 1220 01:05:51.880 --> 01:05:55.000 show Jay where was Christ didn't establish the contivity? 1221 01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:57.320 So run off to something else. No, run run off 1222 01:05:57.320 --> 01:05:59.360 to the prompt of the debate. But you haven't addressed 1223 01:05:59.400 --> 01:06:01.920 all I had this was that there's one contradiction. No, 1224 01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:07.119 you don't because Christ established patrain ministry. Christ established a 1225 01:06:07.159 --> 01:06:10.679 petrine ministry. I've shown it does I exited it. I 1226 01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:13.800 showed it. There are there are developments in the pontificate. 1227 01:06:13.360 --> 01:06:13.920 Over the years. 1228 01:06:13.920 --> 01:06:16.360 The Petrie ministry was supposed to in the first seven 1229 01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:19.440 country geopolitical world, in the first seven country political world. 1230 01:06:19.440 --> 01:06:22.760 Power there there are where's that good popes, bad popes? 1231 01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:25.320 There media where in the first thousand years is a 1232 01:06:25.320 --> 01:06:28.400 geopolitical world? That is what we call it disciplinary distinction. 1233 01:06:28.760 --> 01:06:31.599 And the Church has said it multiple is it disciplinary 1234 01:06:31.679 --> 01:06:33.880 if it's necessary for salvation for nine hundred. 1235 01:06:33.679 --> 01:06:35.960 Years, it's disciplinary in so far as the modern church, 1236 01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:38.840 as you said yourself, doesn't even hold that this doctrine 1237 01:06:38.920 --> 01:06:39.280 is true. 1238 01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:43.280 When there's a contradiction, it's suddenly disciplinary and it can 1239 01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:43.880 go away. 1240 01:06:44.079 --> 01:06:44.400 Thank you. 1241 01:06:44.440 --> 01:06:46.719 We are all right, all right, all right, We're gonna 1242 01:06:46.719 --> 01:06:50.199 move on from there. I'm gonna give your time. Theoretically 1243 01:06:50.199 --> 01:06:52.639 you would have unlimited time after after the length of 1244 01:06:52.639 --> 01:06:56.599 that situation. But but also to be fair, I'm gonna 1245 01:06:56.599 --> 01:06:58.079 give you five minutes. But if you guys want to go, 1246 01:06:58.239 --> 01:06:59.920 you know, you guys want to still still ham my 1247 01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:01.199 the point. If you don't think it is, I'll give 1248 01:07:01.199 --> 01:07:03.159 you the ability to hammer it out as well. Since 1249 01:07:03.239 --> 01:07:06.320 since since Jay got that from the chat, I'd have 1250 01:07:06.360 --> 01:07:09.440 no idea who won that, because the chats it's like 1251 01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:13.639 we were someone who was saying Tucker won, you know 1252 01:07:13.639 --> 01:07:15.800 what I mean, like just throwing in chat, just throwing 1253 01:07:15.840 --> 01:07:18.360 and ideas in there. Uh. But you guys need to 1254 01:07:18.400 --> 01:07:21.400 be very very dogmatic on who you support. I'd like 1255 01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:23.280 to know once and for all before we go on 1256 01:07:23.320 --> 01:07:26.199 to this rebuttal that rebuttal, do you believe ones in 1257 01:07:26.239 --> 01:07:28.960 the chats that Jay one two's in the chats that 1258 01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:33.519 Timothy won. Let's go ones ones for Jay twos for Timothy. 1259 01:07:33.719 --> 01:07:35.119 I just want to see a little bit what's going 1260 01:07:35.159 --> 01:07:37.920 on there and what's happening. Sometimes I can tell about 1261 01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:39.639 your names as well, what's going on. 1262 01:07:40.119 --> 01:07:41.840 All right, as we go. 1263 01:07:41.800 --> 01:07:43.480 Into there, I'm gonna give your time on the clock. 1264 01:07:43.559 --> 01:07:45.960 Theoretically you have five minutes. Again, if for some reason 1265 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:48.079 there's a contention and a challenge, I'll give you that 1266 01:07:48.119 --> 01:07:49.920 way more than five minutes. Well, I said the middle 1267 01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:51.599 ground was nobody's. I was like, because it was just 1268 01:07:51.639 --> 01:07:54.320 a separate issue as were. If we weren't gonna mute, 1269 01:07:54.360 --> 01:07:56.199 if we're gonna mute, then it would have been his minutes. 1270 01:07:56.239 --> 01:07:58.159 But since we unmuted both, it's like, okay, then we'll 1271 01:07:58.199 --> 01:07:58.760 just go at it. 1272 01:07:58.719 --> 01:08:00.320 And you guys cross that right. 1273 01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:02.800 Yeah, go ahead. This is a theoretically five minutes. 1274 01:08:02.840 --> 01:08:04.519 But if for some reason you can't get done in time, 1275 01:08:04.559 --> 01:08:05.800 then you know we'll get it done. 1276 01:08:05.960 --> 01:08:06.119 Here. 1277 01:08:06.159 --> 01:08:07.079 We go go ahead and begin. 1278 01:08:07.159 --> 01:08:09.039 You can start your questioning, all right, we'll go to 1279 01:08:09.079 --> 01:08:13.000 the three Papal scriptures. In Matthew sixteen to nine, Jesus 1280 01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:17.840 gives the Peter the keys alone to the kingdom. Do 1281 01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:20.159 you know the typological reference of the keys in the 1282 01:08:20.159 --> 01:08:23.920 Old Testament? You know what there of Isaiah and what 1283 01:08:24.520 --> 01:08:27.640 mean the householder? I'm aware of all that. What do 1284 01:08:27.680 --> 01:08:31.560 they mean though, specifically to which king the steward, to 1285 01:08:31.680 --> 01:08:34.000 David the king. So yeah, this is well, this is 1286 01:08:35.520 --> 01:08:40.239 a typological reference the house of David. I'm aware of that. Yeah. Okay, 1287 01:08:40.359 --> 01:08:43.079 so the keys of the House of David. You think this? 1288 01:08:44.520 --> 01:08:47.000 Does he give these keys to all of the apostles? Yes? 1289 01:08:47.720 --> 01:08:49.399 How does he give all these keys to the apostles? 1290 01:08:49.439 --> 01:08:51.520 He gives them to Jesus, to Peter alone. 1291 01:08:52.159 --> 01:08:54.960 Well, in two chapters later he says exact same, Dame, 1292 01:08:55.039 --> 01:08:55.840 to the whole college. 1293 01:08:56.760 --> 01:08:58.920 He gives the keys of the kingdom to the whole 1294 01:08:58.920 --> 01:09:04.880 college of cardinals, to the whole college of Apostles. Yeah, 1295 01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:06.199 can you read that for me? Yeah. 1296 01:09:06.239 --> 01:09:09.159 Matthew eighteen says that the binding and the loosing, which 1297 01:09:09.199 --> 01:09:11.359 is what the key is signify, is literally said to 1298 01:09:11.399 --> 01:09:12.079 the entire college. 1299 01:09:12.079 --> 01:09:16.680 Two chapters later. Yeah, no, no, I did know that. Oh, 1300 01:09:16.840 --> 01:09:19.479 but binding and loosing is given as the operation of 1301 01:09:19.479 --> 01:09:24.039 the key. The Third Ecumenical Council and the Sixth Ecumenical Council. 1302 01:09:24.079 --> 01:09:29.960 It's affirmed as given to Peter alone primacial authority everywhere 1303 01:09:29.960 --> 01:09:34.279 on Earth. Sorry, this is the Seventh Ecumenical Council. Primacial 1304 01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:37.159 authority everywhere on Earth was given by the Redeemer of 1305 01:09:37.199 --> 01:09:40.520 the world to the Blessed Apostle Peter. Through the same Apostle, 1306 01:09:40.560 --> 01:09:43.039 the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church has till now 1307 01:09:43.079 --> 01:09:45.640 and will hold for all time primacy and sovereign authority. 1308 01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:48.279 Are you How does that square with your interpretation right? 1309 01:09:48.319 --> 01:09:51.600 Because that language is also used Matthew sixteen is applied 1310 01:09:51.600 --> 01:09:53.880 in the Seventh Ecumenical Council to the Emperor. 1311 01:09:55.279 --> 01:10:00.199 Now, the Emperor doesn't have the binding and loosing can 1312 01:10:00.199 --> 01:10:00.720 forgive sin. 1313 01:10:00.920 --> 01:10:04.000 No, I'm saying the Council also uses that terminology for 1314 01:10:04.039 --> 01:10:04.439 the Emperor. 1315 01:10:04.520 --> 01:10:05.920 So it doesn't prove what you think it proved. It 1316 01:10:06.199 --> 01:10:06.960 does prove what I think. 1317 01:10:06.960 --> 01:10:10.600 It proves everywhere on earth the Emperor can can confess 1318 01:10:10.680 --> 01:10:13.159 sins can be You don't understand that I'm saying. I 1319 01:10:13.239 --> 01:10:15.680 don't believe that I'm saying what the Council also says. 1320 01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:17.560 The Council crimacial authority. 1321 01:10:17.800 --> 01:10:20.359 It says that the keys and Matthew sixteen also applies 1322 01:10:20.399 --> 01:10:21.840 to the Emperor, which I don't believe. 1323 01:10:21.920 --> 01:10:24.520 But the council also says that where does it say 1324 01:10:24.560 --> 01:10:27.079 that it's brought up in the Ubi Borro debate? 1325 01:10:28.199 --> 01:10:28.279 No? 1326 01:10:28.600 --> 01:10:30.239 I mean, but where does it say that in the count? 1327 01:10:30.359 --> 01:10:32.439 Can you read me something? I don't have the documents 1328 01:10:32.479 --> 01:10:33.720 with me. No, but you can look it up. 1329 01:10:33.760 --> 01:10:37.640 So you think that I just want your best estimate. 1330 01:10:37.680 --> 01:10:41.479 You think primacial authority everywhere on earth? Because we're talking 1331 01:10:41.479 --> 01:10:44.239 about the the areare the passage? Hold on? I know 1332 01:10:44.279 --> 01:10:46.760 what that says. We're talking about the passage that I 1333 01:10:46.760 --> 01:10:49.760 brought up, the three the three passages, particularly the keys 1334 01:10:50.119 --> 01:10:52.079 everyone on earth given by the Redeemer of the world 1335 01:10:52.319 --> 01:10:55.960 to the Blessed Apostle Peter through the same Apostle, the 1336 01:10:55.960 --> 01:10:59.279 Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church. How about that it doesn't 1337 01:10:59.319 --> 01:11:01.880 give it to to the Empire the way it would 1338 01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:05.079 be the analogatet for the Emperor. It's only given to 1339 01:11:05.079 --> 01:11:07.760 the Roman Church hold now and for all time through 1340 01:11:07.760 --> 01:11:10.920 privacy and sovereign authority. How how does that square with 1341 01:11:10.960 --> 01:11:11.680 your interpretation? 1342 01:11:12.119 --> 01:11:15.479 Because, like I said, the keys is used at times 1343 01:11:15.520 --> 01:11:16.840 in that flowery. 1344 01:11:16.439 --> 01:11:18.960 Language to say the flowery language. It is. 1345 01:11:19.319 --> 01:11:21.640 I mean, the entire debate between Ubi and Obarrow is 1346 01:11:21.680 --> 01:11:23.439 about primacial authority. 1347 01:11:23.479 --> 01:11:26.840 Everywhere on earth is flowery. Yeah, it is primacial authority. 1348 01:11:26.880 --> 01:11:27.760 It's specific. 1349 01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:29.880 You have you heard the term i've trained attorney. This 1350 01:11:29.920 --> 01:11:33.079 is how we describe the tachnology that's used in the 1351 01:11:33.079 --> 01:11:37.239 ecumenical councils for the patriarchal constantinoples. Similar how about Council 1352 01:11:37.279 --> 01:11:41.279 of Calcidon. Peter has spoken through Leo. Are you aware 1353 01:11:41.359 --> 01:11:44.359 that they examined the tone against Cyril? 1354 01:11:44.560 --> 01:11:44.720 Yeah? 1355 01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:47.760 Of course, Oh so Cyril was a center. No, so 1356 01:11:47.800 --> 01:11:52.000 Peter spoke through Cyril finacial authority. Well you're retroact, But 1357 01:11:52.039 --> 01:11:55.840 did you have authoritatively saying that you didn't? You're retroactively 1358 01:11:55.840 --> 01:11:57.359 reading the seventh back to the fourth. 1359 01:11:57.600 --> 01:12:00.600 How how about this is this flowery language from ephesis? 1360 01:12:00.600 --> 01:12:03.720 The third council is head, the head of the whole faith, 1361 01:12:03.800 --> 01:12:07.920 the head of the apostles, blessed Peter. It's it's in 1362 01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:11.199 the octa. Are you sure? 1363 01:12:12.680 --> 01:12:12.920 Oh? 1364 01:12:13.119 --> 01:12:15.600 I think it's in the octa. I mean, I could 1365 01:12:15.760 --> 01:12:17.359 I could check it. Do you think that every state? 1366 01:12:17.439 --> 01:12:19.760 I think it's you think that every state from a 1367 01:12:19.840 --> 01:12:23.279 legate is dogmatic, because of course it has to be 1368 01:12:23.319 --> 01:12:27.359 in wait, I said, it's in the octa. The Pope's 1369 01:12:27.439 --> 01:12:30.399 legates say something, and you think that that's now the 1370 01:12:30.439 --> 01:12:32.399 head of the whole faith, The head of the apostles 1371 01:12:32.479 --> 01:12:34.520 is Blessed Peter. So what excuse is it? 1372 01:12:34.560 --> 01:12:37.119 Is it that? But none of that proves Vatican won. 1373 01:12:38.000 --> 01:12:41.159 I wasn't trying to prove Vatican one cross. 1374 01:12:41.359 --> 01:12:46.439 I was trying to prove that Jesus Instituteodox don't disagree with. 1375 01:12:46.399 --> 01:12:49.960 That Jesus institute of the papacy, and you don't disagree. 1376 01:12:50.079 --> 01:12:52.119 What does it mean at your own counsel? Doesn't mean? 1377 01:12:52.439 --> 01:12:54.239 What does it mean at your own council at eight 1378 01:12:54.359 --> 01:12:59.079 seventy Constantinople four, in your own council that the chief 1379 01:12:59.119 --> 01:13:02.279 of the apostles or has the authority of universal binding 1380 01:13:02.319 --> 01:13:04.000 and loosing? Just explain that to. 1381 01:13:03.920 --> 01:13:06.359 Me the same way that your documents of that of 1382 01:13:06.399 --> 01:13:13.359 the Vatican explain it. I vers does your Vatican documents 1383 01:13:13.399 --> 01:13:13.960 explain it? 1384 01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:18.079 Can you? Can you unpack what that means? So it 1385 01:13:18.119 --> 01:13:18.560 sounds like. 1386 01:13:18.560 --> 01:13:21.359 Your appeals are made to the Bishop of Rome, but 1387 01:13:21.399 --> 01:13:22.800 they're also made to other bishops. 1388 01:13:23.239 --> 01:13:26.560 And as Cyprian says, all bishops are Peter, but the 1389 01:13:26.600 --> 01:13:28.359 power of universal binding and loosing. 1390 01:13:29.159 --> 01:13:33.399 But that same flower language is also used of other patriarchates. 1391 01:13:33.439 --> 01:13:37.359 In flowery language, this is a pelt language. This is 1392 01:13:37.439 --> 01:13:40.119 literally the language apellate. 1393 01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:44.000 Jurisdiction argument according to the Chiady DOCTORSCU mean the Alexandria document, 1394 01:13:43.960 --> 01:13:45.000 the Ciady documents. 1395 01:13:45.159 --> 01:13:46.119 Who's my position? 1396 01:13:46.199 --> 01:13:50.359 Because appleate jurisdictions allow for retrials in the local jurisdictions, 1397 01:13:50.399 --> 01:13:51.119 it proves. 1398 01:13:50.840 --> 01:13:56.680 Your position that he has an honorary uh, non jurisdictional power. 1399 01:13:56.760 --> 01:13:58.920 No are you? Are you aware what Peter in Rome? 1400 01:13:59.039 --> 01:14:03.279 No Sartica allows noble to say, the chief of the apostles, 1401 01:14:03.279 --> 01:14:05.960 Peter has the authority of universal binding and loosing. 1402 01:14:06.479 --> 01:14:09.119 That is that's also no, you're not listening to what 1403 01:14:09.159 --> 01:14:09.600 I'm saying. 1404 01:14:09.640 --> 01:14:13.279 That terminology in that phraseology is also used of the emperor, 1405 01:14:13.319 --> 01:14:16.479 and it's also used of other patriarchates and bishops to 1406 01:14:16.600 --> 01:14:18.800 do the same types of things. 1407 01:14:18.840 --> 01:14:20.359 Okay. In John, that's insane. 1408 01:14:20.640 --> 01:14:24.359 In John twenty one, Jesus tells Peter three times, feed 1409 01:14:24.399 --> 01:14:28.319 my sheep. He repeats it, give an orthodox in term, 1410 01:14:28.399 --> 01:14:31.920 Why would Christ trust entrust the universal flock to one man? 1411 01:14:32.000 --> 01:14:34.119 If his role was just honorific. It's not. 1412 01:14:35.640 --> 01:14:37.520 What do you mean, It's not you're just assuming that 1413 01:14:37.520 --> 01:14:40.199 those passages teach Vatican one and the universal jurisdiction. 1414 01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:43.680 Talking about Vatican Vatican one wouldn't happen for eighteen hundred years. 1415 01:14:43.680 --> 01:14:46.560 You're obsessed with it. I'm asking, literally, because that's not 1416 01:14:46.600 --> 01:14:49.000 what's increasing Vatican want it happened at the time of 1417 01:14:49.079 --> 01:14:52.960 John twenty one. Obviously not Jesus tells Peter three times. 1418 01:14:53.199 --> 01:14:56.960 He tells Peter three times back in whatever the year 1419 01:14:57.000 --> 01:15:00.399 thirty three, because my sheep, why would he? But I'm 1420 01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:02.439 just asking why would he entrust the universal? 1421 01:15:02.600 --> 01:15:03.039 He didn't. 1422 01:15:04.520 --> 01:15:07.920 That's just your assumption that the scripture. Where does this 1423 01:15:07.960 --> 01:15:09.880 say the entire universal flock? 1424 01:15:10.000 --> 01:15:13.640 Is there? The whole flock, not just the local church, 1425 01:15:13.760 --> 01:15:16.199 because he's not referring to the local true, that's why 1426 01:15:16.199 --> 01:15:18.159 he says it. Why does he say it three times? 1427 01:15:18.239 --> 01:15:23.920 Jay den him three times? Duh? But okay, bring up one? 1428 01:15:24.520 --> 01:15:27.920 So why why what is the authority of Peter denying 1429 01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:30.600 him three times and this being undone three times? The 1430 01:15:30.640 --> 01:15:34.039 authority of it? I don't know what that means. So 1431 01:15:34.359 --> 01:15:40.520 you you think that price is not interesting? The universal flock. 1432 01:15:40.319 --> 01:15:45.039 To Timothy was Timothy was Timothy was in Ephesus. 1433 01:15:45.159 --> 01:15:48.760 Peter isn't over that right, And and the authority of 1434 01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:52.159 universal binding and loosing is just flowery. Jesus gives the 1435 01:15:52.199 --> 01:15:54.720 keys too, and that's just flowers. 1436 01:15:54.720 --> 01:15:56.720 I should have watched the U be a Borrow debate 1437 01:15:56.720 --> 01:15:58.520 because they talked about all the flowery language. 1438 01:15:59.000 --> 01:16:02.119 I've seen it, uh, And it's it's absurd to just 1439 01:16:02.199 --> 01:16:05.319 say anytime you don't like that a power is given, 1440 01:16:05.399 --> 01:16:07.880 you say language. No, it's not I see it too. 1441 01:16:07.960 --> 01:16:10.520 Primation authorities everywhere on Earth, that's flowery. 1442 01:16:10.680 --> 01:16:13.960 That's because you try to try to very trying to 1443 01:16:13.960 --> 01:16:15.960 cite legs dogmatic. 1444 01:16:16.039 --> 01:16:22.680 No, this is nice. The councils of this earlier. Why 1445 01:16:22.680 --> 01:16:26.159 would Pope Hadrian be read and stuck into the see 1446 01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:29.720 saying that primatial authority everyone on earth has been given by? 1447 01:16:29.880 --> 01:16:32.800 Does this strike anyone else? Can I answer? Flower? Can 1448 01:16:32.840 --> 01:16:33.600 I answer this question? 1449 01:16:33.800 --> 01:16:35.600 Some people in the chat were saying Jay likes flowers. 1450 01:16:35.800 --> 01:16:37.600 That's what that's what that's what they're saying the chat. 1451 01:16:37.600 --> 01:16:38.680 I don't. I'm not gonna have an opinion. 1452 01:16:38.800 --> 01:16:40.520 I take other side of Can I answer, Yeah, you 1453 01:16:40.560 --> 01:16:42.760 can answer, then we should probably probably cut that off 1454 01:16:42.760 --> 01:16:44.279 and go to the conclusion right now. 1455 01:16:45.880 --> 01:16:49.199 Uh So, I'm not trying to say that every statement 1456 01:16:49.279 --> 01:16:52.399 is flowery language. I was specifically talking about some of 1457 01:16:52.439 --> 01:16:55.439 the statements. Let me give an example where Basil says, 1458 01:16:55.520 --> 01:16:58.279 when he's talking about the Malician schism, he says that 1459 01:16:58.800 --> 01:17:01.720 the church in Antioch is the head of the entire body, 1460 01:17:01.880 --> 01:17:04.960 and the whole body listens to the head. Nobody believes 1461 01:17:04.960 --> 01:17:07.720 that the Bishop of Antioch is the head of the 1462 01:17:07.880 --> 01:17:11.119 entire universal Church. It's one example of the flowery language 1463 01:17:11.159 --> 01:17:12.800 which came up multiple times in the. 1464 01:17:12.760 --> 01:17:15.800 Debate between Ubi and Obara and other debates. 1465 01:17:16.000 --> 01:17:18.439 So all I'm saying is that the case in Matthew 1466 01:17:18.960 --> 01:17:21.359 of Matthew sixteen and the Sun of the Commentical Council 1467 01:17:21.479 --> 01:17:24.680 doesn't go very far because it also applies to the 1468 01:17:24.720 --> 01:17:27.239 Emperor in the acts of that Council, which I don't accept. 1469 01:17:27.239 --> 01:17:29.399 I'm just saying that they use that terminology and they 1470 01:17:29.399 --> 01:17:30.720 cite that text for the emperor. 1471 01:17:31.119 --> 01:17:33.239 What I'm also saying is that do they cite it 1472 01:17:33.279 --> 01:17:35.119 in the same way though. Do they cite it in 1473 01:17:35.119 --> 01:17:37.880 the same way where the same primatial authority or he's 1474 01:17:37.920 --> 01:17:39.239 a confessor of what. 1475 01:17:39.119 --> 01:17:41.359 They say is that the gates of Hell will not 1476 01:17:41.399 --> 01:17:45.079 prevail against the empire nor the emperor, of course, citing Matthew, 1477 01:17:45.279 --> 01:17:48.199 but nobody believes that because the empire fell right. But 1478 01:17:48.239 --> 01:17:51.239 I'm just saying that Matthew sixteen in the councils can 1479 01:17:51.279 --> 01:17:55.479 be used and it doesn't necessarily prove the Vatican one position, 1480 01:17:55.640 --> 01:17:56.800 which is what you have to prove. 1481 01:17:56.880 --> 01:17:58.960 I'm not talking about Vatican one. I'm talking about but 1482 01:17:59.000 --> 01:18:01.199 that's what you hold the entire It was like a 1483 01:18:01.199 --> 01:18:04.239 three line specific quote and you're saying, well, they said 1484 01:18:04.880 --> 01:18:08.760 the later Pope Hadrian thing, can I address up? Yeah, okay, 1485 01:18:09.039 --> 01:18:11.239 So I do agree with you that. 1486 01:18:11.520 --> 01:18:14.840 Over time, and if you read Sashinsky's book on Orthodoxy 1487 01:18:14.840 --> 01:18:17.560 and the Papacy, he discusses this. By the time of 1488 01:18:17.600 --> 01:18:19.960 Pope Saint Gregory the Great, he admits and agrees to 1489 01:18:20.000 --> 01:18:23.239 the pentarchy. At the same time as pentarchy is accepted 1490 01:18:23.239 --> 01:18:27.680 by Rome, Rome is also making more and more grandiose 1491 01:18:27.960 --> 01:18:31.479 and grandeur related statements and claims. I agree with you 1492 01:18:31.520 --> 01:18:34.239 that those claims are there, and they're being made, but 1493 01:18:34.399 --> 01:18:37.159 from an Orthodox perspective. Just because the pope at a 1494 01:18:37.239 --> 01:18:41.680 council says that we don't necessarily think that it's true 1495 01:18:41.720 --> 01:18:44.239 because the pope said, and it's in the council, right. 1496 01:18:44.520 --> 01:18:46.760 It could be the acts, it could be flowery language. 1497 01:18:47.079 --> 01:18:49.319 And we don't accept everything that a pope says, of course, 1498 01:18:49.439 --> 01:18:50.239 even at a council. 1499 01:18:50.279 --> 01:18:55.199 So the real issue epistemologically is how do you say 1500 01:18:55.239 --> 01:18:58.840 that this is not a flowery sorry, circular reasoning. In 1501 01:18:58.880 --> 01:19:01.760 other words, what I kept repeating in my opening, the 1502 01:19:01.840 --> 01:19:04.800 councils are ecumenical when we accept them, and only the 1503 01:19:04.840 --> 01:19:08.319 accepted councils are ecumenical. That's why you guys have fourteen churches. 1504 01:19:08.319 --> 01:19:10.439 That's why you can't meet the first mark of the church. 1505 01:19:10.640 --> 01:19:14.479 Let me, you have three patriarchs in church, all right, 1506 01:19:14.560 --> 01:19:16.960 for the sake of that, you can't meet the one. 1507 01:19:17.159 --> 01:19:20.000 There's one head. There's one visible sign of unity. 1508 01:19:20.079 --> 01:19:23.079 That was God telling us to the closing, all right. 1509 01:19:23.119 --> 01:19:26.039 So in conclusion on that, let's end with the conclusion 1510 01:19:26.119 --> 01:19:29.239 both to look, I'm gonna we're gona're gonna cut down 1511 01:19:29.239 --> 01:19:31.560 the five minute conclusions. It's almost midnight and there's there's 1512 01:19:31.560 --> 01:19:34.399 a kid here, so it's like gotta go to bed. 1513 01:19:35.239 --> 01:19:37.399 But so so we'll cut out of five minutes and 1514 01:19:37.439 --> 01:19:39.760 then I'll go through some super chats. We went through 1515 01:19:39.760 --> 01:19:41.800 most of the superchats though that were out there, if 1516 01:19:41.840 --> 01:19:43.119 you if you I did. I read some of the 1517 01:19:43.119 --> 01:19:44.840 two dollars one dollar super chats, but I was mostly 1518 01:19:44.880 --> 01:19:47.880 keeping it the five, ten, and twenty dollars up super chats. 1519 01:19:48.159 --> 01:19:50.680 And I thank you everyone who gave the super chats. 1520 01:19:50.720 --> 01:19:53.640 That was really appreciative of you that were there. 1521 01:19:53.680 --> 01:19:56.000 And we'll try to uh make sure that we get 1522 01:19:56.000 --> 01:19:59.119 to them somehow because there was just just too many. 1523 01:19:59.119 --> 01:20:00.520 But I really appre should. 1524 01:20:00.319 --> 01:20:02.760 Don't forget subscribe to this channel if you don't, we 1525 01:20:02.800 --> 01:20:06.159 are live Monday, Wednesday Friday at seven pm Eastern time 1526 01:20:06.239 --> 01:20:08.359 right now. We have special shows on Tuesdays and Thursdays 1527 01:20:08.399 --> 01:20:10.079 as well that are live with the pre record of 1528 01:20:10.079 --> 01:20:14.039 rebens of new shows start on the channel, including Joel Webbin, 1529 01:20:14.119 --> 01:20:16.520 who's been working with these two guys as well, doing 1530 01:20:16.560 --> 01:20:19.760 a theological show trying to bring Catholics, Prots and Orthodox 1531 01:20:19.800 --> 01:20:22.319 together to fight what's going on in this world, together 1532 01:20:22.359 --> 01:20:24.840 to be masculine and take back our countries, lead our 1533 01:20:24.880 --> 01:20:26.479 families and repopulate this world. 1534 01:20:26.479 --> 01:20:29.560 Am I right? That's a good idea. Plus. 1535 01:20:29.760 --> 01:20:32.479 You can also join local support this show directly if 1536 01:20:32.479 --> 01:20:34.159 you want to, because every time on that we do 1537 01:20:34.199 --> 01:20:36.479 this show live, we end up having live segments if 1538 01:20:36.479 --> 01:20:38.359 it's a special show song as we don't kind of 1539 01:20:38.399 --> 01:20:40.800 put it all out there at Elijah Shaeffer dot locals 1540 01:20:40.800 --> 01:20:43.159 dot com. You can follow us on Rumble YouTube wherever 1541 01:20:43.239 --> 01:20:45.760 you want to. But I greatly appreciate your support. And 1542 01:20:46.159 --> 01:20:48.239 let's go into this. We'll go ahead and we'll start. 1543 01:20:49.800 --> 01:20:50.399 With Jay. 1544 01:20:50.880 --> 01:20:52.760 Let me put some time on the clock here. I'm 1545 01:20:52.840 --> 01:20:54.159 going to go a little shorter and we're going to 1546 01:20:54.199 --> 01:20:56.760 try to stick to it. Please to summarize it due 1547 01:20:56.800 --> 01:20:59.960 to the simplicity of that, I'm gonna give you six minutes, 1548 01:21:00.159 --> 01:21:03.800 so ten, let me reset the clock if you're ready 1549 01:21:03.800 --> 01:21:06.840 to go. This is the conclusion both of this segment 1550 01:21:06.960 --> 01:21:08.000 and of the show. 1551 01:21:08.159 --> 01:21:09.399 Yep, you have the clock. 1552 01:21:09.960 --> 01:21:10.840 Yeah. 1553 01:21:10.960 --> 01:21:13.199 So I'd like to address a couple of things that 1554 01:21:13.640 --> 01:21:15.359 did come up here. There's a really good book, by 1555 01:21:15.359 --> 01:21:16.920 the way, because a lot of these comments, a lot 1556 01:21:16.960 --> 01:21:19.239 of these quotes need to be addressed in terms of 1557 01:21:19.239 --> 01:21:22.279 the context and then more more sort of spaced out. 1558 01:21:22.319 --> 01:21:25.159 There's a great book called Papacy in the Orthodox by 1559 01:21:25.279 --> 01:21:28.439 Edwards Sarshchensky. He's the same person that was a Unia 1560 01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:31.319 and became Orthodox. He wrote the book on the Philioqua, 1561 01:21:31.359 --> 01:21:33.640 and he also wrote this excellent book on the history 1562 01:21:33.640 --> 01:21:36.479 of these disputes, and he actually begins with the patristic 1563 01:21:36.479 --> 01:21:39.079 era or assuming of the post Apostolic apeer with Clement 1564 01:21:39.159 --> 01:21:42.319 and Ignatius, and talks about how, for example, for the 1565 01:21:42.359 --> 01:21:45.079 last sixty plus years, even the Roman Catholic Church no 1566 01:21:45.159 --> 01:21:49.359 longer utilizes things like Clement because they don't actually demonstrate 1567 01:21:49.479 --> 01:21:53.399 what the claims of Vatican one claim. 1568 01:21:53.800 --> 01:21:54.880 The claims of Vatican One. 1569 01:21:54.960 --> 01:21:57.359 For example, we've read Satist kongn Needum, which is a 1570 01:21:57.800 --> 01:22:01.560 legal the thirteenth description and define of what is supposed 1571 01:22:01.560 --> 01:22:04.960 to be understood in terms of people supremacy. Satist Cognitium 1572 01:22:05.000 --> 01:22:08.319 says that it has always, at all times been understood 1573 01:22:08.800 --> 01:22:12.479 that the Roman See had the claims that Vatican One 1574 01:22:12.479 --> 01:22:13.039 has about it. 1575 01:22:13.079 --> 01:22:13.479 So, in other. 1576 01:22:13.399 --> 01:22:17.720 Words, there's no development of doctrine. According to Satist Cognitum, 1577 01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:23.439 it is clearly that the Roman Sea was indefectible, infallible, 1578 01:22:23.439 --> 01:22:27.920 and had universal jurisdiction. Now he likes to say that, well, 1579 01:22:28.000 --> 01:22:31.520 I don't have to accept these statements from the Chiady 1580 01:22:31.600 --> 01:22:35.560 document because well, it's just not infallible. Of course, there 1581 01:22:35.600 --> 01:22:39.399 is no epistemic criteria for the Roman Catholic for what 1582 01:22:39.560 --> 01:22:43.039 is actually infallible, because Tim knows that it's more than 1583 01:22:43.159 --> 01:22:45.880 just a few exec theater statements. You also have to 1584 01:22:45.920 --> 01:22:51.000 believe all the dogmatic teachings in the ordinary universal Magisterium. 1585 01:22:51.359 --> 01:22:54.039 And in fact, there's a whole list of I'll give 1586 01:22:54.079 --> 01:22:56.640 you the guys the list of these. 1587 01:22:57.399 --> 01:22:59.039 You can look them up yourselves, so we don't have 1588 01:22:59.079 --> 01:22:59.760 time to go through him. 1589 01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:03.239 Zinger sixteen eighty three, Dinzinger sixteen ninety eight, Denzinger seventeen 1590 01:23:03.319 --> 01:23:06.720 ninety two, Castid KNUBII one O four all say that 1591 01:23:07.239 --> 01:23:10.840 position is condemned. If you say you only follow the 1592 01:23:10.880 --> 01:23:14.760 ex cathedral magisterial statements, that is a condemned proposition. And 1593 01:23:14.800 --> 01:23:16.640 it's funny because you actually heard him seem to be 1594 01:23:16.720 --> 01:23:18.920 arguing that tonight now in regard. 1595 01:23:18.680 --> 01:23:22.319 To just let me let him let him conclude, please please, sorry, sorry, 1596 01:23:22.359 --> 01:23:24.680 please four hours. 1597 01:23:24.439 --> 01:23:28.560 Because because universal ordinary magisterial teaching would be much broader 1598 01:23:28.600 --> 01:23:30.720 and would bind him and everyone else to a whole 1599 01:23:30.720 --> 01:23:33.119 bunch other of other things. And that's precisely what the 1600 01:23:33.159 --> 01:23:36.119 point of Atican one was to say, now, all I 1601 01:23:36.159 --> 01:23:39.520 needed was one dogmatic contradiction, which I think we saw 1602 01:23:39.640 --> 01:23:43.800 with the geopolitical power claims that were necessary for salvation 1603 01:23:44.319 --> 01:23:45.479 for nine hundred years. 1604 01:23:45.840 --> 01:23:47.239 He said, oh, it's just a discipline. 1605 01:23:47.319 --> 01:23:51.039 That's his way to get around this doctrinal contradiction. But again, 1606 01:23:51.079 --> 01:23:53.720 I will go back to the famous instance that Ubi 1607 01:23:53.760 --> 01:23:56.239 brought up to Ibarro, which Aborro didn't have an answer to, 1608 01:23:56.319 --> 01:24:00.600 in which I will reassert again from the papacy in 1609 01:24:00.600 --> 01:24:06.119 the Orthodox Pope Vigilius submitted to the Ecumenical Council because 1610 01:24:06.119 --> 01:24:09.960 he was threatened with excommunication and removal from the Diptychs, 1611 01:24:10.439 --> 01:24:12.760 and that's where he landed. That's where he ended up. 1612 01:24:12.800 --> 01:24:16.039 That's why Virgilius is such a strong argument against the 1613 01:24:16.159 --> 01:24:21.079 claim that Jesus instituted this universal supremacy that was from 1614 01:24:21.159 --> 01:24:25.039 all times, at all times, everywhere, infallible and defectible from 1615 01:24:25.159 --> 01:24:26.199 the earliest days. 1616 01:24:26.600 --> 01:24:27.880 That's what he has to prove. 1617 01:24:28.319 --> 01:24:31.960 That's why he was deflecting into these passages that don't 1618 01:24:32.000 --> 01:24:36.720 actually prove that. They prove merely that there's those passages 1619 01:24:36.720 --> 01:24:38.840 which can be read in an Orthodox sense or in 1620 01:24:38.840 --> 01:24:41.720 a Roman Catholic sense. He has a system that he 1621 01:24:41.760 --> 01:24:43.920 has to defend. He tried to say that it's all 1622 01:24:44.039 --> 01:24:47.079 coherence theory, or so I don't hold to secular coherence theory. 1623 01:24:47.119 --> 01:24:50.520 So he doesn't know what he's talking about. The position 1624 01:24:50.920 --> 01:24:54.520 only requires one contradiction for the whole thing to fall apart. 1625 01:24:54.760 --> 01:24:57.399 And you can read the most recent Richard Price text 1626 01:24:57.560 --> 01:25:01.880 on the case of Virgilius. And when Richard Price was 1627 01:25:01.880 --> 01:25:04.720 on Reason in Theology and they interviewed him a few 1628 01:25:04.760 --> 01:25:07.880 years ago, and he said that the pope did not 1629 01:25:08.079 --> 01:25:11.880 have universal jurisdiction in the first millennium, just like the 1630 01:25:11.960 --> 01:25:14.800 Chieti document says the pope did not have universal jurisdiction 1631 01:25:14.840 --> 01:25:17.880 in the first millennium. That means Vatican One is false. 1632 01:25:18.319 --> 01:25:23.119 And that's why Vigilius disproves the papacy. And there's many more. Honorius, 1633 01:25:23.600 --> 01:25:27.000 what two minutes were done? Okay, there's many more. There's 1634 01:25:27.000 --> 01:25:29.960 also the case of Honorius. Honorius is not just condemned 1635 01:25:30.039 --> 01:25:35.000 because he supposedly fibbed or failed to condemnse it's actually 1636 01:25:35.000 --> 01:25:37.479 because he wrote a letter to a bishop. So notice 1637 01:25:37.640 --> 01:25:40.199 the status of the text. It wasn't ex cathedral, it 1638 01:25:40.279 --> 01:25:42.000 wasn't a magisterium. It is a letter to a bishop 1639 01:25:42.039 --> 01:25:45.600 where he affirmed monothelitism, and he was successively condemned by 1640 01:25:45.760 --> 01:25:48.920 in the East three councils, including the Seventh Ecumenical Council. 1641 01:25:49.199 --> 01:25:53.600 So Honorius becomes a heretic explicitly. Most Roman Catholics, except 1642 01:25:53.600 --> 01:25:55.880 for a few, will admit this now today. But that 1643 01:25:56.000 --> 01:25:59.680 means that the pope isn't indefectible. And yet Vatican one 1644 01:25:59.680 --> 01:26:03.000 claimed that the ce of Peter is indeffectible. It is 1645 01:26:03.119 --> 01:26:05.960 never failing in its truth and in its faith. And 1646 01:26:06.039 --> 01:26:08.680 yet tonight we've seen, in just a handful of examples, 1647 01:26:08.720 --> 01:26:12.239 and I can give many many more, that it is 1648 01:26:12.279 --> 01:26:14.760 in fact failing. And that's why we don't put our 1649 01:26:14.800 --> 01:26:18.199 hope in a geopolitical world ruler which now calls for 1650 01:26:18.520 --> 01:26:21.039 open borders and all of that. Who used to say 1651 01:26:21.039 --> 01:26:22.880 you had to believe in his que's outside of rock 1652 01:26:22.840 --> 01:26:24.880 a list on all gie powers to be saved. Now 1653 01:26:24.880 --> 01:26:25.960 you don't have to believe it's. 1654 01:26:25.840 --> 01:26:26.960 Just a discipline. Handwave it. 1655 01:26:27.399 --> 01:26:30.800 No, no, no, The papacy is a geopolitical tool. And if 1656 01:26:30.840 --> 01:26:32.279 you go to my channel and watch all of my 1657 01:26:32.359 --> 01:26:34.840 old videos, you can find the lectures where I've walked 1658 01:26:34.840 --> 01:26:38.600 through David Wimhoff's excellent book showing that the CIA also 1659 01:26:39.119 --> 01:26:42.119 bought into and helped to buy out the papacy. 1660 01:26:41.720 --> 01:26:42.920 Through Operation Gladio. 1661 01:26:43.119 --> 01:26:45.960 There's multiple texts from multiple Roman Catholics even on that. 1662 01:26:46.279 --> 01:26:48.119 So what are we looking at with the papacy? Is 1663 01:26:48.159 --> 01:26:50.640 it really a center of unity? Or is it a 1664 01:26:50.760 --> 01:26:55.880 tool of inclusive capitalism, socialism, war, economic forum, all the 1665 01:26:55.920 --> 01:27:00.640 stuff that you see bat Canto promoting with the internationalism, a. 1666 01:27:00.439 --> 01:27:01.720 New world order, et cetera. 1667 01:27:01.840 --> 01:27:05.119 Explicitly in the Church and the modern world texts. That's 1668 01:27:05.159 --> 01:27:08.239 what the papacy actually is. The papacy is not your friend. 1669 01:27:08.479 --> 01:27:11.520 It is a spiritual cancer, and it does not produce 1670 01:27:11.640 --> 01:27:15.840 the thing that it claims to produce, unity, holiness and truth. 1671 01:27:16.159 --> 01:27:18.279 All Right, That was ladies and gentlemen. 1672 01:27:19.520 --> 01:27:24.239 Jay Dyer of the Orthodox Tradition, get the round of applause. There, 1673 01:27:24.560 --> 01:27:29.760 absolutely fantastic end to his rebuttal. Before we put the 1674 01:27:29.760 --> 01:27:31.560 ones and the twos in the chats, I'd like to 1675 01:27:31.720 --> 01:27:33.920 turn the time over. It was almost exactly six minutes, 1676 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:37.680 like one second over over to Timothy Gordon. Just want 1677 01:27:37.680 --> 01:27:40.359 to clarify you're ready, yes, you're go to you a second, okay, 1678 01:27:41.359 --> 01:27:43.880 go ahead. In the terms of defense of the Catholic tradition. 1679 01:27:45.199 --> 01:27:47.880 To have your defense and conclusion, you may begin. 1680 01:27:48.600 --> 01:27:52.199 Well, it's very clear to prove whether or not I 1681 01:27:52.199 --> 01:27:56.159 think the prompt of this question was Jesus institute of 1682 01:27:56.159 --> 01:27:59.079 the papacy. We have to check whether Jesus institute of 1683 01:27:59.079 --> 01:28:04.319 the papacy. Three gospels that I read, and what even 1684 01:28:04.439 --> 01:28:07.439 easterners thought of them, what all of the early Church 1685 01:28:07.520 --> 01:28:11.039 thought they meant, even if power would be aggrandized or 1686 01:28:11.439 --> 01:28:16.680 used in ways that Jay objects to later, You can't 1687 01:28:16.760 --> 01:28:19.439 object later in the timeline. You have to object earlier 1688 01:28:19.479 --> 01:28:23.600 to show that Jesus didn't establish the papacy. Here are 1689 01:28:23.920 --> 01:28:29.039 and Jay objected as orthodox do to my exegesis of 1690 01:28:29.159 --> 01:28:35.039 those three papal scriptures. But except here is Abu Karah. 1691 01:28:35.039 --> 01:28:38.159 These are all Eastern thinkers before the schism. If he 1692 01:28:38.239 --> 01:28:40.920 meant by these words in the Gospel only Saint Peter, 1693 01:28:41.359 --> 01:28:43.880 the Church would have been deprived of comfort and would 1694 01:28:43.920 --> 01:28:46.880 have had no one to deliver from those heretics whose 1695 01:28:46.920 --> 01:28:49.560 heresies are truly the gates of Hell, which Christ said 1696 01:28:49.560 --> 01:28:52.439 would not overcome the Church. Accordingly, there is no doubt 1697 01:28:52.760 --> 01:28:54.920 that he meant by these words nothing other than the 1698 01:28:54.920 --> 01:28:58.600 holders of the seat of Saint Peter, who have continually 1699 01:28:58.640 --> 01:29:01.359 strengthened their brethren and will not cease to do so 1700 01:29:01.439 --> 01:29:03.920 as long as this present age lasts. So is it 1701 01:29:04.000 --> 01:29:07.960 multiple people, Yes, it is the people who inhabit the 1702 01:29:08.039 --> 01:29:12.600 chair of Peter. Here's Maximus the Confessor. All the churches 1703 01:29:12.600 --> 01:29:15.960 of Christians everywhere have held the greatest Church there to 1704 01:29:16.000 --> 01:29:18.680 be their sole base and foundation. Since on the one hand, 1705 01:29:19.000 --> 01:29:21.359 it is in no way overcome by the gates of Hades, 1706 01:29:21.720 --> 01:29:24.279 according to the very promise of the Savior, referring to 1707 01:29:24.319 --> 01:29:27.319 the same scripture, but holds the keys of the Orthodox 1708 01:29:27.399 --> 01:29:29.680 confession and faith in him. And on the other hand, 1709 01:29:30.000 --> 01:29:33.479 it shuts up and locks every heretical mouth that speaks 1710 01:29:33.560 --> 01:29:41.439 unrighteousness against the most High. This is Theodore studite. I 1711 01:29:41.560 --> 01:29:44.720 witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves 1712 01:29:44.760 --> 01:29:47.119 away from the body of Christ, from the supreme sea 1713 01:29:47.680 --> 01:29:50.520 in which Christ placed the keys of the faith, the 1714 01:29:50.560 --> 01:29:54.479 supreme sea against which the gates of Hell, I mean, 1715 01:29:54.479 --> 01:29:57.119 the mouths of heretics have not prevailed, and never will 1716 01:29:57.199 --> 01:30:00.920 until the consummation. Note all of the con tinual themes 1717 01:30:01.319 --> 01:30:04.199 which ring the same in all of these thinkers exeit 1718 01:30:04.239 --> 01:30:07.680 eating the one passage according to the promise of Him 1719 01:30:07.720 --> 01:30:10.680 who cannot lie, let the most blessed an apostolic pope, 1720 01:30:10.760 --> 01:30:14.640 Pascal rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter. 1721 01:30:15.119 --> 01:30:20.720 This is Theodore Studite, an Orthodox scholar, says of this. 1722 01:30:21.399 --> 01:30:23.920 The same time we find Saint Maximus the Confessor in 1723 01:30:24.000 --> 01:30:28.199 Theodore the Studite expressing the view that Rome was, in 1724 01:30:28.359 --> 01:30:31.119 unique sense the chair of Peter that would never fall 1725 01:30:31.119 --> 01:30:35.479 into heresy. This is clean a work, and it's simple 1726 01:30:35.600 --> 01:30:40.920 and straightforward, because the establishment of the pontificate by Jesus 1727 01:30:41.000 --> 01:30:46.399 was simple and straightforward in the first Christian century. And 1728 01:30:46.600 --> 01:30:50.720 I read you all of these places where for the 1729 01:30:50.760 --> 01:30:54.720 first thousand years the Orthodox accepted the papacy, and you 1730 01:30:55.319 --> 01:30:58.760 heard not a word, not a single word from jay 1731 01:30:58.840 --> 01:31:02.840 to night as to how they accepted the papacy. For 1732 01:31:02.960 --> 01:31:05.840 the last nearly thousand years they haven't accepted the papacy. 1733 01:31:05.880 --> 01:31:10.239 And of course, because this is an indefensible relinquishment of 1734 01:31:11.199 --> 01:31:17.079 a millennium old position, it's a relinquishment of the fundamental 1735 01:31:17.399 --> 01:31:21.800 pinnacle of the faith, the fundament of the faith Saint Peter, 1736 01:31:22.239 --> 01:31:26.479 as many many Orthodox Eastern scholars say before the schism. 1737 01:31:27.039 --> 01:31:29.359 He is the foundation of the faith, he's the prince 1738 01:31:29.399 --> 01:31:34.039 of the apostles. Flowery language, yes, But I read from 1739 01:31:34.279 --> 01:31:39.880 multiple councils that the establishment of the papacy in these 1740 01:31:39.920 --> 01:31:45.159 three passages is accepted in both East and West. And 1741 01:31:45.199 --> 01:31:47.960 of course this always brings us back to the fact 1742 01:31:48.079 --> 01:31:51.600 that in both East and West there was a pontificate 1743 01:31:51.640 --> 01:31:55.760 for a thousand years, and there was jurisdiction being exercised. 1744 01:31:58.039 --> 01:32:00.640 As I said the first time, we debated, if it's 1745 01:32:00.840 --> 01:32:04.560 just an honorary power, If it's just an honorary role, 1746 01:32:04.760 --> 01:32:06.920 like being a knight at a roundtable, and you're the 1747 01:32:06.920 --> 01:32:09.720 first of honor, then you are not appealed to for 1748 01:32:09.760 --> 01:32:12.800 an ex communication. You can't fire anyone. Dwight Shrut can't 1749 01:32:12.800 --> 01:32:16.920 fire anyone in the office when he's left in charge 1750 01:32:16.960 --> 01:32:19.880 as a kind of first among equals. That's true enough. Well, 1751 01:32:21.840 --> 01:32:25.479 within the first four councils there are appeals being made 1752 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:28.479 to the Pope, the first three councils, appeal being made 1753 01:32:28.479 --> 01:32:32.159 to the pope to excommunicate the eventual number two. 1754 01:32:32.000 --> 01:32:32.520 In the church. 1755 01:32:32.720 --> 01:32:35.239 I don't know what else that stands for, and I've 1756 01:32:36.000 --> 01:32:38.600 I've tried to see it that way I can't. I've 1757 01:32:38.640 --> 01:32:42.920 heard nothing coherent tonight that would answer the question, what 1758 01:32:43.000 --> 01:32:47.199 do those three papal scriptures mean. I've read Orthodox scholars 1759 01:32:47.479 --> 01:32:50.920 or Eastern scholars, and an Orthodox scholar cleaner work who 1760 01:32:51.439 --> 01:32:55.560 exeged him exactly the way we did, even if you 1761 01:32:55.640 --> 01:32:59.239 ignore it. Clement of Rome, because it's inconvenient, ignacious of 1762 01:32:59.239 --> 01:33:02.279 Antioch cold, the Roman Church, the one presiding in love 1763 01:33:02.399 --> 01:33:06.760 allah a president ierinais that all churches must agree with 1764 01:33:06.800 --> 01:33:09.399 the Roman Church because of its pre eminent authority. Is 1765 01:33:09.439 --> 01:33:13.479 pre eminent authority, flowery language. No, it's juridical language. It's 1766 01:33:13.560 --> 01:33:18.880 jurisdictional language. Cyprian of Carthage says, while he's clashing with Stephen, 1767 01:33:19.000 --> 01:33:22.000 he still calls Rome, who he's not happy with at 1768 01:33:22.000 --> 01:33:25.560 the time, the chair of Peter and principal church from 1769 01:33:25.560 --> 01:33:29.359 which sasserdotal unity has arisen. This is how the Roman 1770 01:33:29.399 --> 01:33:35.760 Catholic Church stands for those four marks holy Catholic Apostolic 1771 01:33:36.159 --> 01:33:40.479 established at the very first Ecumenical Council. The oneness requires 1772 01:33:40.520 --> 01:33:44.880 a visible sign of unity on earth. All bishops can 1773 01:33:44.920 --> 01:33:47.359 be said to succeed Peter in a sense, but Rome 1774 01:33:47.439 --> 01:33:49.279 succeeds in a special way, and I think that way 1775 01:33:49.319 --> 01:33:54.640 has been made clear by these three scriptural foundations of 1776 01:33:54.680 --> 01:33:55.239 the papacy. 1777 01:33:55.720 --> 01:33:56.600 Ladies and gentlemen. 1778 01:33:56.880 --> 01:34:01.319 Timothy Gordon of the Catholic Persuau, I think we're just 1779 01:34:01.359 --> 01:34:03.279 having a little bit on our soundboard there. It's fine, 1780 01:34:03.319 --> 01:34:06.119 not gonna at cheer, not on purpose. But we actually 1781 01:34:06.119 --> 01:34:09.640 have a new one shipment on the way it looks 1782 01:34:09.640 --> 01:34:12.600 at our board actually shorted completely, so I'm surprised it 1783 01:34:12.640 --> 01:34:16.640 worked this whole time. Fantastic stuff. Appreciate you guys. With 1784 01:34:16.760 --> 01:34:18.600 that super chat in mind. I want to read a 1785 01:34:18.600 --> 01:34:21.680 couple of super chats here. I am Weneman said. The 1786 01:34:21.760 --> 01:34:25.840 Catholic Church says the Orthodox have legitimate apostolic succession, possession 1787 01:34:25.840 --> 01:34:27.720 of true sacraments in Christ. If you have what we 1788 01:34:27.760 --> 01:34:31.399 need to have you wait, if you have what need 1789 01:34:31.479 --> 01:34:36.279 have you for the pope? Interesting every day I'm struggling 1790 01:34:36.319 --> 01:34:39.640 say there's a difference between accepting go Old Rome's orthodoxy 1791 01:34:39.680 --> 01:34:44.239 and schismatic universal supremacy. Tim you complete bad faith actor, 1792 01:34:45.039 --> 01:34:50.359 they said, complete, said war Thunder said Tim is the 1793 01:34:50.359 --> 01:34:54.119 Byzantine Empire and Emperor Basil the first infallible. The gates 1794 01:34:54.119 --> 01:34:56.560 of Hell shall not prevail against your Orthodox Empire, the 1795 01:34:56.560 --> 01:35:00.800 bishops to Basil the first at the eighth ecumen Council. 1796 01:35:01.239 --> 01:35:01.920 Is that true? 1797 01:35:02.199 --> 01:35:03.079 Uh? I was? 1798 01:35:03.520 --> 01:35:06.920 I mis cited it's the eighth and I was saying seventh, 1799 01:35:07.000 --> 01:35:08.720 So I was incorrect about that. 1800 01:35:08.760 --> 01:35:09.640 I should have said the eighth. 1801 01:35:09.960 --> 01:35:12.119 All right, late night Tweaker said Orthodox again with the 1802 01:35:12.159 --> 01:35:14.800 seventy four percent versus Roman Catholics twenty six percent, absolute 1803 01:35:14.800 --> 01:35:19.000 devastation for the Roman Catholics. I like, I didn't know 1804 01:35:19.039 --> 01:35:20.960 this is such a battle, Like is this this is 1805 01:35:20.960 --> 01:35:22.000 a whole new world for me. 1806 01:35:22.119 --> 01:35:24.439 I just knew the churches and divided. I didn't know. 1807 01:35:25.880 --> 01:35:26.520 Jay's ready to go. 1808 01:35:26.560 --> 01:35:28.079 He's like, I Gus, no, I'm just I'm trying to 1809 01:35:28.119 --> 01:35:29.560 get my I don't want to keep you too. 1810 01:35:29.479 --> 01:35:32.079 Long on no, no, no. I I got a review. 1811 01:35:31.800 --> 01:35:35.279 Of these chats. It was it was like what it 1812 01:35:35.319 --> 01:35:35.840 was intense. 1813 01:35:36.479 --> 01:35:38.000 Yeah, it was over four and a half hours. 1814 01:35:38.279 --> 01:35:39.399 I don't think I've ever done a four and a 1815 01:35:39.399 --> 01:35:40.039 half hour debate. 1816 01:35:40.199 --> 01:35:45.359 So neither have I actually, uh, neither of I'll read 1817 01:35:45.359 --> 01:35:46.319 a few more of you, said, I want to make 1818 01:35:46.319 --> 01:35:48.119 sure we read the super I appreciate you guys as 1819 01:35:48.199 --> 01:35:48.880 my super chatters. 1820 01:35:48.920 --> 01:35:49.600 I love you guys. 1821 01:35:49.920 --> 01:35:52.439 And you know, you guys really come and show your 1822 01:35:52.439 --> 01:35:54.560 support for it, for Tim and for for Jay, and 1823 01:35:54.600 --> 01:35:55.720 that's why you're supporting here. 1824 01:35:55.960 --> 01:35:56.920 Then I appreciate that. 1825 01:35:56.840 --> 01:35:59.760 Because, yeah, it does cost money to host these things, 1826 01:35:59.760 --> 01:36:01.359 and I don't know if it fully paid it back 1827 01:36:01.479 --> 01:36:04.039 like with the super chats, but it definitely helped, you know, 1828 01:36:04.079 --> 01:36:06.920 and that's really, really, really fantastic. So you guys understand 1829 01:36:06.920 --> 01:36:08.960 the importance of independent media and that's very, very helpful. 1830 01:36:09.119 --> 01:36:09.520 Thank you. 1831 01:36:10.000 --> 01:36:12.039 I conam Matt said, if I, as a pizza maker, 1832 01:36:12.039 --> 01:36:15.640 put pepperoni on a person's pizza and then give them 1833 01:36:15.640 --> 01:36:18.159 the pizza, does that make the person someone who puts 1834 01:36:18.159 --> 01:36:20.880 pepperoni on pizza passively? Does it make them a passive 1835 01:36:20.920 --> 01:36:25.359 pizza maker? Okay, evening, that's funny and I don't take 1836 01:36:25.359 --> 01:36:26.000 a side there. 1837 01:36:27.680 --> 01:36:30.840 I wrote a play of paper Scissors Rock for it. 1838 01:36:30.880 --> 01:36:32.960 Is there something to the paper scissors rock instead of 1839 01:36:33.039 --> 01:36:33.760 rock paper scissors? 1840 01:36:34.159 --> 01:36:35.520 Why do we say paper scissors rock? 1841 01:36:36.439 --> 01:36:38.760 I don't know. My wife tells me that's crazy. Is 1842 01:36:38.760 --> 01:36:41.840 it rock paper scissors? Yeah? I always thought that the 1843 01:36:42.439 --> 01:36:44.960 two dieads and then the monad, right, Yeah, I was 1844 01:36:45.159 --> 01:36:46.159 in terms of syllables. 1845 01:36:46.159 --> 01:36:47.359 I just thought it was like, you know, like that's 1846 01:36:47.359 --> 01:36:47.920 what I said, Like. 1847 01:36:47.880 --> 01:36:49.960 It's like, give me job hands. You know that's that 1848 01:36:50.039 --> 01:36:54.359 sounds like to me, that's it's a job. Blow Give 1849 01:36:54.399 --> 01:36:55.279 it to me later, bitch. 1850 01:36:55.279 --> 01:36:57.560 All right. Anyway, I should have said that rock papers. 1851 01:36:57.600 --> 01:36:58.920 I'm tired rock papers. 1852 01:37:00.079 --> 01:37:00.359 Uh. 1853 01:37:00.880 --> 01:37:05.680 Protifect also said something very very interesting here said, uh said, uh, 1854 01:37:05.680 --> 01:37:08.159 when Timsy's an old guy with a T shirt greatest Grandpa, 1855 01:37:08.199 --> 01:37:10.960 he takes it literally. If that's talking about house, Grandpa 1856 01:37:11.199 --> 01:37:14.479 was the best. So okay, that's uh, that's some interesting 1857 01:37:14.520 --> 01:37:17.359 things there. That being said, You guys, these people are 1858 01:37:17.399 --> 01:37:18.119 are crazy. 1859 01:37:18.800 --> 01:37:19.239 Uh. 1860 01:37:19.600 --> 01:37:23.199 War Thunder said Tim. Is Emperor Leo infallible? Is Emperor 1861 01:37:23.279 --> 01:37:25.560 Leo infallible? I am confident of the pauity of your 1862 01:37:25.600 --> 01:37:27.840 heart in all things, and perceive that through the Holy 1863 01:37:27.880 --> 01:37:30.159 Spirit dwelling in you are sufficiently instructed. 1864 01:37:30.399 --> 01:37:30.920 Nor can the. 1865 01:37:30.880 --> 01:37:35.159 Air delude you. Saint Leo to Emperor Leo, he infallible. 1866 01:37:35.159 --> 01:37:38.600 It's a swim question. Is Emperor Leo infallible? 1867 01:37:38.920 --> 01:37:40.239 Is the Emperor infallible? 1868 01:37:40.640 --> 01:37:40.920 Yeah? 1869 01:37:41.079 --> 01:37:41.920 Are you being serious? 1870 01:37:42.000 --> 01:37:43.640 No? No, what do you mean asking me? 1871 01:37:43.680 --> 01:37:45.760 I don't know. I mean I'm talking to the the 1872 01:37:45.880 --> 01:37:48.479 goofball in chat. Yeah, of course not dude. 1873 01:37:48.479 --> 01:37:51.279 The word guruth thrown around tonight was diabolical in itself. 1874 01:37:53.000 --> 01:37:54.960 They also said one sounds like there's a sincere attempt 1875 01:37:54.960 --> 01:37:57.399 at Coher and Soather sounds like talking to a theological lawyer. 1876 01:37:57.880 --> 01:38:01.079 We also had h one I'm shot a seventeen said 1877 01:38:01.119 --> 01:38:01.800 go get them, Jay. 1878 01:38:02.359 --> 01:38:04.439 We should have made people state what their what their 1879 01:38:04.439 --> 01:38:07.600 faith background is for for a comment. Yeah, but then 1880 01:38:07.640 --> 01:38:09.880 they just lie anyway. So they'd say, all, I'm a Catholic. 1881 01:38:09.920 --> 01:38:14.960 But but uh, oh. 1882 01:38:14.840 --> 01:38:16.640 Man, there's there's so many here that we're not gonna 1883 01:38:16.640 --> 01:38:20.319 able to get to tonight. Really, I'm sorry. Well, actually 1884 01:38:20.359 --> 01:38:22.119 got to. Actually we did get through most. Also, it's 1885 01:38:22.119 --> 01:38:24.319 funny we saw there was like AARs five hundred and 1886 01:38:24.359 --> 01:38:25.920 I was like, oh my gosh, what is that. 1887 01:38:25.960 --> 01:38:27.319 It turns out that's an Argentinian. 1888 01:38:27.640 --> 01:38:31.560 It's take thirty eight cents night, I'll give. 1889 01:38:31.960 --> 01:38:33.800 I wanted to give Jay credit. So he said it 1890 01:38:33.960 --> 01:38:38.159 right the second time. Ordinary Universal Magestarium refers to all 1891 01:38:38.199 --> 01:38:39.359 bishops with popes. 1892 01:38:39.840 --> 01:38:43.079 He did say it, and my understanding is that's everybody. 1893 01:38:43.119 --> 01:38:45.720 Carosm Well, let me read a couple of these things. 1894 01:38:46.319 --> 01:38:48.119 Uh freedom, freedom works right now? 1895 01:38:48.279 --> 01:38:51.640 Just at two hundred dollars in US do tweets like 1896 01:38:52.399 --> 01:38:53.760 the soundboard just isn't working. 1897 01:38:53.760 --> 01:38:55.359 I'm so sorry. We usually give like you do. 1898 01:38:55.399 --> 01:38:58.039 You have some confetti at least for them that work. 1899 01:38:59.319 --> 01:39:03.119 There you go, that's they thinking about this. You go 1900 01:39:03.199 --> 01:39:05.279 two hundred dollars to get some confetti. Well, have you 1901 01:39:05.279 --> 01:39:08.479 ever given more than that to the government. It gets 1902 01:39:08.560 --> 01:39:12.920 confettian in Brown people's weddings and their families while they're sleeping. 1903 01:39:12.960 --> 01:39:15.840 That's what we get with more money than that. It's 1904 01:39:15.840 --> 01:39:19.439 not confetti, it's their brain matter of their children. Anyway, 1905 01:39:22.079 --> 01:39:24.680 that's what we pay for. Again, I have your roads 1906 01:39:24.720 --> 01:39:26.720 fixed because you've got to kill Brown people in other 1907 01:39:26.760 --> 01:39:29.640 countries through the US military. I don't like it. It's 1908 01:39:29.640 --> 01:39:31.720 not a good thing. But people, we pay for that. 1909 01:39:31.760 --> 01:39:35.279 It's not a good thing anyway. Darkness Society said, if 1910 01:39:35.399 --> 01:39:39.600 Orthodox beliefs in the papacy papacy, why don't they have one? 1911 01:39:40.239 --> 01:39:43.159 Why can they agree on the sinful nature of contraception? 1912 01:39:44.159 --> 01:39:46.960 Why would they interpret the Bible themselves without an interpreter? 1913 01:39:47.399 --> 01:39:49.920 If their wrong, their souls are on the line. Their 1914 01:39:49.960 --> 01:39:53.760 problem is authority. I guess that's coming from a Catholic 1915 01:39:54.159 --> 01:39:56.239 to repeat that If Orthodox believes on papacy, why don't 1916 01:39:56.239 --> 01:39:59.239 they have one? Why can they agree on the sinful 1917 01:39:59.319 --> 01:40:02.439 nature of conscious option? Why why they interpret the Bible 1918 01:40:02.479 --> 01:40:04.520 themselves with that interpreter. If they're wrong, their souls are 1919 01:40:04.520 --> 01:40:06.319 on the line. I think the problem is authority. So 1920 01:40:06.359 --> 01:40:09.840 they're saying, without the Apostolic papacy, then you're wrong. So like, 1921 01:40:10.720 --> 01:40:12.000 I mean, I don't know. I guess it's like a 1922 01:40:12.039 --> 01:40:15.199 sin of a sin of transgression or something. I guess 1923 01:40:15.239 --> 01:40:17.439 you're going hell for it or something. I mean, what 1924 01:40:17.560 --> 01:40:19.399 what is what is the question I'm trying to think. 1925 01:40:19.840 --> 01:40:21.800 I mean, there's souls on the line, So like, why 1926 01:40:21.800 --> 01:40:23.079 do you have a problem authority? I think that's what 1927 01:40:23.079 --> 01:40:24.439 he's saying, your problems authority? 1928 01:40:24.920 --> 01:40:28.279 Yeah, I mean we just have we have different authorities 1929 01:40:28.279 --> 01:40:30.680 from what they recognize as authorities. 1930 01:40:31.920 --> 01:40:32.800 To answer simply. 1931 01:40:32.840 --> 01:40:35.840 But if you want a specific answer on divorce and remarriage, 1932 01:40:35.840 --> 01:40:38.039 we made a whole documentary on this, or at least 1933 01:40:38.039 --> 01:40:41.119 my friends did Lewis and UBI. You can go to 1934 01:40:41.239 --> 01:40:45.119 UBI Petris and watch the documentary his channel about divorce 1935 01:40:45.119 --> 01:40:47.399 and remarriage where you'll see that Pope Gregory the Second 1936 01:40:47.479 --> 01:40:49.880 in the Roman Catholic Church allowed for it. The Basil 1937 01:40:49.920 --> 01:40:52.479 the Canons of Saint Basil that the Roman Church accepted 1938 01:40:52.560 --> 01:40:55.000 allowed for divorce and remarriage. So a lot of these 1939 01:40:55.000 --> 01:40:57.600 things that they have huge issues with, they don't even 1940 01:40:57.600 --> 01:41:00.439 know their own history on it. And you can also 1941 01:41:00.479 --> 01:41:04.279 look up the interview with doctor David Bradshaw on the 1942 01:41:04.359 --> 01:41:07.560 question of sexual ethics and the issue of contraception on 1943 01:41:07.680 --> 01:41:10.039 UBI Petris's channel as well. So those are they're really 1944 01:41:10.039 --> 01:41:15.119 involved questions. It gets into like risk Tatilian medieval theology 1945 01:41:15.119 --> 01:41:19.680 of orsumia, of philosophy of purpose and secondary purposes and 1946 01:41:19.720 --> 01:41:21.760 biology and all that. It's just too much to answer 1947 01:41:21.800 --> 01:41:24.359 in one response, so we made that documentary. 1948 01:41:25.840 --> 01:41:27.319 Yeah, okay, that's interesting. 1949 01:41:27.880 --> 01:41:29.720 And by the way, ASKCAF said, Jay is the Pope 1950 01:41:29.720 --> 01:41:33.159 of the future, Christ is king and I think believe 1951 01:41:33.199 --> 01:41:35.199 at that. Shout out to everyone who who gave that 1952 01:41:35.199 --> 01:41:36.560 that I was able to get you tonight. 1953 01:41:36.760 --> 01:41:37.840 I really appreciate it. 1954 01:41:38.399 --> 01:41:40.840 If people want to find you and follow you, guys, Jay, 1955 01:41:41.239 --> 01:41:43.079 what is the best way people can support your work? 1956 01:41:43.079 --> 01:41:45.079 The links are in the description, but obviously you got 1957 01:41:45.079 --> 01:41:47.359 social media channels. People probably know you and here and 1958 01:41:47.880 --> 01:41:48.920 they may want to support you. 1959 01:41:49.479 --> 01:41:51.439 Yeah, you can go to my website and all my 1960 01:41:51.640 --> 01:41:53.760 archives stuff is there. I'm also on rock Finn, a 1961 01:41:53.960 --> 01:41:56.960 free speech based platform. You can find me on Twitter, YouTube, 1962 01:41:57.000 --> 01:42:01.399 all that stuff, and then usually on Fridays with Alex Jones, 1963 01:42:01.439 --> 01:42:03.560 although we're waiting to see you know where that's going 1964 01:42:03.600 --> 01:42:04.760 to go with his court stuff. 1965 01:42:05.359 --> 01:42:07.319 And then the Sam Hide Show. 1966 01:42:08.880 --> 01:42:11.760 Yeah check it out. Yeah, and of course Timothy Gordon. 1967 01:42:11.760 --> 01:42:13.359 How can people find you and follow you the same thing? 1968 01:42:13.600 --> 01:42:16.960 Uh? Yeah, Twitter, YouTube, the usual stuff. I'm at tim 1969 01:42:16.960 --> 01:42:24.720 o'theeology on Twitter and Timothy Gordon on YouTube and my 1970 01:42:24.880 --> 01:42:26.479 show is called Rules for Retrogrades. 1971 01:42:27.520 --> 01:42:30.039 Well, I've never seen so many defeated people. At the 1972 01:42:30.119 --> 01:42:32.239 end of the show. We all, I think we all 1973 01:42:32.319 --> 01:42:34.560 lost at the end of the yeah, half. 1974 01:42:34.520 --> 01:42:36.479 Hours, I'd like to say that this was the best 1975 01:42:36.600 --> 01:42:39.760 Catholic debt I ever had. So you actually did, I 1976 01:42:39.760 --> 01:42:42.840 mean better than Trent or any ones I can think of. 1977 01:42:42.960 --> 01:42:47.920 So this was actually a This was like an intense session. 1978 01:42:48.239 --> 01:42:51.319 So this is the best colleague that I've had. 1979 01:42:52.439 --> 01:42:58.159 Thanks in good job. We remain friends and I appreciate 1980 01:42:58.199 --> 01:43:00.399 you coming out and doing it again the second time. 1981 01:43:01.720 --> 01:43:03.680 You know what, This was very good. 1982 01:43:04.600 --> 01:43:06.960 I think in the chat you know, I'm gonna say this, 1983 01:43:07.439 --> 01:43:10.640 you guys both did a fantastic job. I think that 1984 01:43:10.640 --> 01:43:13.439 that the work that you did there was the work 1985 01:43:13.439 --> 01:43:14.720 that you guys did here, and the way that you 1986 01:43:14.720 --> 01:43:17.399 were able to talk this out was probably above a 1987 01:43:17.439 --> 01:43:21.199 lot of people's IQs, including my own, and I appreciate that. 1988 01:43:21.840 --> 01:43:24.640 And it's always good here to be able to hear 1989 01:43:24.680 --> 01:43:26.640 it out and to learn something. And I like to 1990 01:43:26.640 --> 01:43:28.920 say that with debates or with conversations, the key thing 1991 01:43:28.920 --> 01:43:31.399 is is that hopefully you learned something constructive tonight, like 1992 01:43:31.399 --> 01:43:32.119 that's opened to everyone. 1993 01:43:32.159 --> 01:43:33.840 You learn some constructive and that your. 1994 01:43:33.800 --> 01:43:37.439 Views were at least challenged, right, because pride and haughtiness, 1995 01:43:37.479 --> 01:43:39.680 you know, can become a very very very big stumbling 1996 01:43:39.680 --> 01:43:42.079 block in the hearts of men, and especially since as 1997 01:43:42.079 --> 01:43:43.720 you know, you get over like some of your sins 1998 01:43:43.720 --> 01:43:45.399 and vices and then you can become like deal with 1999 01:43:45.439 --> 01:43:47.479 ego and pride and issues that end up you know, 2000 01:43:47.520 --> 01:43:50.720 blinding you from from you know, being humble and seeing 2001 01:43:50.760 --> 01:43:51.520 the face of God. 2002 01:43:51.520 --> 01:43:52.920 Without holiness, you not see the Lord. 2003 01:43:53.199 --> 01:43:54.920 And we have to really check our hearts at the 2004 01:43:55.039 --> 01:43:57.199 at the gate there of heaven and see, you know, 2005 01:43:57.239 --> 01:43:59.119 really what's going on in our in our lives and 2006 01:43:59.119 --> 01:44:01.479 our hearts and our minds. Being honest because the mind 2007 01:44:01.560 --> 01:44:04.520 is ruthless, is to see flea wicked. Who can know it? 2008 01:44:05.039 --> 01:44:07.000 But God himself right, he knows, he knows us. 2009 01:44:07.039 --> 01:44:09.880 So I would I would say this to Jay. You know, 2010 01:44:10.000 --> 01:44:14.920 it's it's a couple of things. J knows more about 2011 01:44:14.920 --> 01:44:18.640 the Philioquay than any Christian layman that I know that 2012 01:44:18.720 --> 01:44:20.760 I know of in the public space. So I was 2013 01:44:21.439 --> 01:44:24.800 stepping out there. He did well in that second one. 2014 01:44:24.880 --> 01:44:26.359 I was stepping out there to try to do with 2015 01:44:26.359 --> 01:44:28.720 this on my area. He did very very well. And 2016 01:44:28.880 --> 01:44:31.880 uh and I'm not taking anything away from in the 2017 01:44:31.960 --> 01:44:34.880 second section. Uh I. I you know, I think I'm 2018 01:44:35.000 --> 01:44:39.479 I'm strong on on actus puris, and I would just 2019 01:44:39.520 --> 01:44:42.880 give it to him legitimately. I'm not I'm not dodging 2020 01:44:43.000 --> 01:44:46.239 giving credit, Bud. It's a bit like anyone that has 2021 01:44:46.279 --> 01:44:50.479 to go debate Nick Fuentes or something like, He's going 2022 01:44:50.520 --> 01:44:53.359 to have his people in the comments, So there there's 2023 01:44:53.399 --> 01:44:55.960 always that you know, he's he's got his people who 2024 01:44:56.000 --> 01:44:58.279 show up, and that's good. You need your people. And 2025 01:44:58.319 --> 01:44:59.720 I like a lot of I like a lot of 2026 01:44:59.720 --> 01:45:02.319 the throw bros, like where they are and a lot 2027 01:45:02.359 --> 01:45:06.119 of stuff. But yeah, you know, Catholics, we have our 2028 01:45:06.159 --> 01:45:08.560 own problems. They don't They don't stay up later than ten. 2029 01:45:08.840 --> 01:45:13.399 And well, good job. In the second section, I'll give 2030 01:45:13.399 --> 01:45:16.039 you that there's a lot that can be learned about 2031 01:45:16.079 --> 01:45:19.840 the Philly oak Way from from the Tomes of Knowledge 2032 01:45:19.880 --> 01:45:21.680 of Jay Dyer on the Philly oak Way. 2033 01:45:21.920 --> 01:45:24.000 But well, I think in the end we can conclude 2034 01:45:24.000 --> 01:45:26.640 this this last statement, should all become Mormon. 2035 01:45:26.880 --> 01:45:29.960 So that's what I got from this. There you go, 2036 01:45:30.000 --> 01:45:32.439 we should all become Mormon. It's a good idea right now. 2037 01:45:32.479 --> 01:45:35.239 I'm kidding anyway, Thank you guys for watching. Shout out 2038 01:45:35.239 --> 01:45:37.800 to my guests today, Jay Dye or Timothy Gordon, follow 2039 01:45:37.840 --> 01:45:40.960 them wherever you can. Shout out Win super Chatters, Shout 2040 01:45:40.960 --> 01:45:43.039 out Win Joey, and. 2041 01:45:42.960 --> 01:45:44.039 To the rest of you guys watching. 2042 01:45:44.119 --> 01:45:47.159 Have a great rest of the week as always, and 2043 01:45:47.279 --> 01:45:48.920 the God bless the United States of America. 2044 01:45:48.920 --> 01:45:49.560 I'm signing now.