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Speaker 1: From the force of a ball with the forced sprain

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with the ball sprain with the ankle sprain, active and

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passive spiration. Josh also said, uh, uh, philoque.

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Speaker 2: Is that you spell it? Or like, how do you

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how do you say you say that loque? Is that fine? Yes?

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Speaker 1: No, Philly okay okay, I didn't know. Uh, I didn't

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know how you us to pronounce that. One says the

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spirit proceeds from the father and the son, but what

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he's arguing is from the father through the son. That's

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not what the philioque says, though, lame semantic argument from

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r seas Uh Maximus. Jacimus says someone gives him a

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pillow to bite on because Jay is going and dry.

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Speaker 2: That's a weird statement.

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Speaker 1: Tiagawanowski Uh said, if you can prove the Holy Ghost

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is from the division, you win the debate, because Christ

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says otherwise. When accused of expelling the demons in the

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name of the Prince of the Demons, he says that

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Satan is divided against Satan. Saint Augustine says the byrate

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means to breathe. The spirit breathes on whom he wills.

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Y'all are fools. Everyone lost apparently true. Forty one he said,

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found out I was the father today because I was fathered.

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Gotta find my non existent child now. Late night two

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girls said I really like the mod By the way,

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votes Jay seventy four percent, RC is twenty six percent.

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Orthodox is an extreme minority in the West, and we won.

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This will carry far and wide.

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Speaker 2: Thank God.

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Speaker 1: Maxims DESCMSSUL said, I'm interested in I'm telling us what

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his pope did in Chile. We also have a quantrum

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merit said, shout out to Tim for restoring masculinity to

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Christianity and recentering the importance of patriarchy in the family.

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He's a good dude. We also have Ianassius, said Gordon.

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You said the spirit is a passive spirator. Does this

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passivity imply a potential potentiality in the Holy Spirit?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Hold on, are we going to superchech question?

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Speaker 1: No, I'm just I'm just reading some of these right

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now because we'll do some questions at the end. I'm

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trying to skip the questions right now. They also said

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Maxims to Tim, we will never accept your dumpster cult.

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Speaker 2: You should apply more lou because Jay is going and dry.

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What is it with these.

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Speaker 1: Sexual six of spades that Jay Catholics can't address these arguments,

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you are obviously a big meanie.

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Speaker 2: And then we'll leave this one as well.

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Speaker 1: Servant Nick Tario said, let's all submit to Pope Katie

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Perry instead just get along, all.

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Speaker 3: Right, that's a good point to say that, so I

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argue with him.

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Speaker 4: I just want to say that for those that are

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interested in what I'm talking about, because it can't be

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cashed out. And two second answers, I shared two things

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on my Twitter. They can check those two articles out

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what I'm talking.

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Speaker 2: About, all right.

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Speaker 1: You know, we did to have to moderate some very

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gross stuff in the chat, so let's avoid the derogatory

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sexual nature of comments, unless, of course, you're on our

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locals can sign up there on locals at lad to

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share at locals dot com if you want to support

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this channel as we grow and you want to join,

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We usually do an extra segment every single time as

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well on here, and shout out to Andrew Wilson the Crucible.

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We'd love to have you on for some debates again.

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Stick around because Monday we're also having Joel webbinon, who's

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representing the Protestant position. He may be and we're trying

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to set up a debate between him and Adam Green

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and some of the guys who say that, you know,

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Jesus is a Jewish myth and that basically he's a

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you know, irrelevant and so we're trying to set that up.

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So encourage you to check that out again. Go to

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Elijah Shaefer dot locals dot com and if we have

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the thing to pop up, but it would be good

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if you guys could meet us there. Well in a second, yeah,

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you can find that. The leak's on the screen and

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the description. We'll be back talking about the papacy apostolic succession.

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Speaker 2: This is an interesting question of mine.

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say this, like before I come out

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and say this from my history and what I've known

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about the papacy, that's this is the issue that is

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most confusing to me because of that one time when

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some pope got excommunicated and the other pope came in

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and he conquered that pope, and who's the pope and

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how do we even know who's the real pope? Is

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do we need to follow the pope? Is the Vatican corrupted? Right,

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There's a lot of things we need to discuss. We'll

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be right back. Don't go anywhere like share and subscribe

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to this channel. We are on Rumble, YouTube, Facebook, and

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on x We'll be right back. I've decided to take

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a different approach to my life and not go to

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Israel and not kiss the wall because I'm not Jewish.

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I am a once practicing evangelical raised that way, turned

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to atheist, then returned back to the to the church

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to Pentecostalism, and then fell back into sin, into vice,

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and then went back to the church to try to

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get help. And it was an absolute horrific show of

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retarded people, is all I can say.

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Speaker 2: And I became very disillusioned.

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Speaker 1: And then as I've gotten older, man, people were talking

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about Jay Agent. You and I have the same comments,

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like you guys are getting old. Unfortunately we are, and

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that's what happens. I don't know what our excuses, since

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the guy with the most kids in the room looks

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the youngest, so that's the problem. But in the end,

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what I'm saying is that it's coming down to the

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fact of like these questions. You know, the Bible talks

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about not getting lost in like arguments, just about words

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and names, right, So we don't want to be arguing

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for the sake of arguing. A lot of people, especially

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in Reformed theology, even in this Catholic Orthodox debate, can

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just argue for the sake of arguing. But I don't

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think there's anything wrong with searching. And it's part of

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the masculine spirit to fight right and to come against,

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to come against falsehood and things that are untrue. And

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so in the spirit of not debate, in the spirit

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of truth, right, the spirit of God. This is an

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inspiration going to have these guys out here to really

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seek the truth. And we were talking a bit off

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camera as they're just getting their notes together preparing for

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our topic three.

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Speaker 2: For a second, I just wanted to inform you guys.

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Speaker 1: You know, that we were they're kind of explaining to

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me where they they misunderstood or where I was misunderstanding them,

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I should say. And the differences of what they believed

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about the Trinity is very fascinating, and especially someone who's

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not from either discipline of theology or Orthodoxy, and not

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as the Church itself with the Orthodox belief of our

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very very precious faith of Christianity.

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Speaker 2: It is nice and it's a.

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Speaker 1: Reminder just to remind you guys like myself, you know,

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let's member to never always just get caught up in

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the words and the meanings of words. To remember who

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it's about. It is about Christ, it is about our

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God and the Spirit. It's about you know, depending on

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what you believe or the iterations of what you believe,

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also remember that you're living it out. And I ask

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somebody who's not fully living it out but wants to

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and admits wholeheartedly that I struggle, you know, with with

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sin and vice at times in my life, like many

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men before me, do want to know how to walk

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in the spirit of God in order to be an

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example for my beautiful sons, to lead my wife, and

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to be a good friend, you know, and.

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Speaker 2: A good brother.

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Speaker 1: And so we're gonna be they're gathering their notes here

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for just a second and gathering their voices. So you know,

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I appreciate you guys that are in the chat, and

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it is important, you know.

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Speaker 2: And like you said, yeah, words matter all this, Yeah,

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of course they do.

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Speaker 1: So it's not that we can't argue these things, just

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that you know, sometimes people can get, you know, so

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so into arguing that they forget that what the point

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of it is is like government. They get so into

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fighting for their party to get into office that once

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their party gets in.

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Speaker 2: Office, the party doesn't do anything for the people.

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Speaker 1: And then they're just happy that you know, the parties

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and powers, but what are they using the power for?

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So I just feel like this is very helpful for

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me because I want to know am I doing the

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right thing?

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Speaker 2: Am I part of the right church?

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Speaker 1: And I think Jay and Tim are ready now to

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begin our discussion on their third topic for tonight, which

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is absolutely fantastic.

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Speaker 2: So as we go on, we will move on to.

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Speaker 1: This next topic, which of course we're talking about what

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I've heard called is apostolic succession, this idea of is

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there a handing down of the church?

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Speaker 2: Is there a visible head of the church? Right? Who

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is at the head? Right? And so.

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Speaker 1: Let's begin and let's sell some of the Elijah one

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in the comments that's like say nothing. That's how a

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woman wins an argument. Really they think it's they think

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they win. But if they just shut up, you know,

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I think we'd like them a lot more sometimes anyway,

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at that, all right, let's go ahead and we'll leave

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us up because we gave each of you guys an

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opportunity here. So I'm going to go ahead and uh

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and give you guys a chance. I will ask Jay, Jay,

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would you like to go first or would you like

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to give him the opportunity to go first?

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Speaker 2: On this question. You have the choice because you were

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first before.

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Speaker 1: Huh okay, all right, Jay Dyer, I'm gonna ask you

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this Christ, did he or did he not establish a

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visible head of church? Representing the Orthodox position? You have

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an opening statement. I will give you ten minutes on

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the clock. Let me reset it here for a moment.

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Your time will begin in just a second. Here all right,

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For everybody that's here, it's jayder You can find him

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here on YouTube and on Rumble and on x.

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Speaker 2: Your time begins. Now you may answer the question right well.

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Speaker 4: They real issue here is, of course, the Vatican One

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definition of the papacy, not just the question of did

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Jesus establish quote a visible head? Because for the Orthodox Church,

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we would say that all the bishops, as many of

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the church fathers argued apologetically in the first few centuries,

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all the bishops are actually Peter, something that Saint Cyprian said.

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So there's no specifically unique special role that Peter gets

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amongst either the collegey of the Apostles nor amongst his successors,

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other than canonical privileges, which for example, Canon six of

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Nicia says, is equivalent to other patriarchates. Not only that,

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at the Council of Ephesus, I don't know, I've never

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heard him talk about this.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if he knows about or not.

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Speaker 4: But the Church at Ephesus granted through the Ecamenical Council

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autocephaly to the Church of Cyprus. That means that it's

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autonomous and independent. This is usually unheard of in the

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world of Roman Catholic apologetics. They're not aware of the

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fact that there were autocephalist, independent churches. And that's because

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the Roman Catholic Church developed eventually to have a monarchical

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autocratic position, which isn't just about indefectibility, infallibility in universal

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jurisdic or a kind of papal autocracy. It actually went

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much further than that in the eleventh century with the

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Gregorian reforms, to where the papacy became a de facto

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world emperor. Now, the Canons of Chalcedon say that civil

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rulership and authority and power is forbidden for clerics to have.

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Not only did the Roman bishop go beyond this, the

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Roman bishop actually, in Dictatus Poppe in ten ninety, declared

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itself to be the only church founded by God, the

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only one that could be called universal, the only one

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that could reinstate in depose bishops, the only one that

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had the right of quote the imperial signia, the one

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in which all the princes in the world should kiss

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his feet, the one alone who may depose emperors, et cetera,

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et cetera. Really extreme and by the way, and can

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never er and will never err.

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Speaker 3: Unto the end of the world.

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Speaker 4: The problem is that Dictatas Pape and those claims in

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the next few centuries are actually based on known famous forgeries.

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Now again I want to promote my buddy George's book

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Airs the Latins.

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Speaker 3: Volume two is three hundred.

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Speaker 4: Pages just on all of the infamous forgeries, whether the

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Samakian forgeries, whether the Galatian decretals, or whether the donation

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of Constantine, and many many others. All of these really contributed,

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even according to Congar himself and other Romancolic scholars, to

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leading to this evolution of the papacy into a geopolitical world.

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Speaker 5: Power.

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Speaker 3: Now you might say, well, that's not a big deal.

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I mean, come on, in Middle Ages there was a

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power vacuum.

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Speaker 4: Ah, but wait a minute, did you know that a

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few centuries after Dictatus Pope in Unum sanctam, the last

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paragraph of this bowl by Pope Boniface the Eighth in

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thirteen oh two, states that not only must you be

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in communion with the Roman see to be saved, you

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must also believe in the worldly temporal power of the

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Roman bishop to be saved. Now, nobody had ever heard

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of this doctrine before, and so how are we going

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to defend this. Well, that's where the forgeries come in.

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You must also believe that the Pope is the Quisa

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Todd or the universe is super being to be saved,

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which nobody else believed or required for salvation prior to this.

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Speaker 3: This is a new doctrine.

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Speaker 4: Now, not only is this a new doctrine, I'm going

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to show definitively from the Roman Catholic teaching it from

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their own dogmas, that this is actually now no longer held.

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Well wait a minute, maybe this one didn't count. Maybe

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this is one of those things that I can throw

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in the not dogmatic ben as you're going to see

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they arbitrarily do all the time. Well, actually, in the

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Syllabus of Errors, when I come all the way up

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about nine hundred years later, from the time of dictatas Pape,

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all the way up to Pious the Ninth. In the

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Syllabus of Areas, which is attached by the way to

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Vatican one, we read that in paragraph seventy six, the

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abolition of the temporal power of the Roman Sea is possessed,

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that it possesses that it would be great for the

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Church to get rid of this condemned to the proposition

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of condemned, and there's others that relate to this as well.

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Interesting because John Paul the First was the first pope

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to cease to use the papal to your that is

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the three tiered tr which signified all levels of his

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power and authority, including temporal power and authority. But when

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we come to the documents of Vatican two we find

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the exact opposite of this. Not only is the temporal

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supremacy of the Roman bishop, which was for centuries necessary

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for salvation discarded, we're actually told that quote in the

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Church and Modern World document Jesus didn't actually come to

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bequeath any political mission to the Church, it was only religious.

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That's paragraph forty two. We read, for example, in the

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Church and the Modern World over in section eighty two,

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that the promotion of a world government is really the

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only solution in terms of internationalism, globalism and entities presumably

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like the UN. It doesn't say the UN, but it

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mentions surrendering power to international organizations. And then on paragraph

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eighty four it actually says the exact same thing. So

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the papacy you see in the next page says that

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all Christian and non religions can work together in human

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institutions for an.

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Speaker 3: End to war.

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Speaker 4: So now we're going to have an end to war

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through entities like the United Nations. And if we slip

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flip over to the Religious Liberty Document, chapter two, it

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says the Vatican declares that human persons have a right

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to religious freedom, that everyone should be immune from any

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coercion by any individual or social group, any human power

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at all in religious matters. Interesting because that exact phraseology

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and terminology is actually condemned in the Syllabus of errors

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numbers fifty five, seventy seven, and seventy eight. So in

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John the twenty thirds Pachaminteros, we're told that we can

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now begin to work towards a globalized government. This idea

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basically makes its way into the documents of Vatican two,

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and we're even told that the state should in no

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way at all coerce, and it should first and foremost

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respect people's liberty.

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Speaker 3: Now, maybe you think that sounds good.

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Speaker 4: Maybe you think, oh, that was a Cold War thing,

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and maybe they needed to promote religious liberty.

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Speaker 3: For the Cold War.

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Speaker 4: But remember, for all of these centuries, all the way

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up until the Syllabus of Errors, you are required for

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your salvation not just to believe in the Roman Sea,

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in its spiritual supremacy and universality and infallibility, but also

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as a world emperor and highest. The ninth condemns anyone

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that would dare go against that. Next, I would point

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out that in these same documents we are told, for example,

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in Mortalium Animals so Piest the eleventh, the Catholic Church,

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the Apostolic Sea, has never allowed its subjects to take

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part in any of the symbolies of non Catholics. A

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few paragraphs earlier, before fourteen, it talks about how pan

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Christians should be condemned humanist ceremonies and religious events are

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in no ways lawful for Catholics to be a part of.

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That is paragraph nine, so nineteen twenty eight. It is

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always universally the Roman Catholic teaching that you cannot be

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involved in these ceremonies, rituals, and rites of at that

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time Protestant groups. But now in the post Roman Catholic world,

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the Apostolic Sea supposedly has actually made itself part and

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party with other world religions, including Pacha Mama and other

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such bizarre ceremonies that took place in the Vatican. In fact,

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Tim and his own website, on his own channel, has

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talked about how, in his view he thinks it's heretical

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that the approval of communion for adulterers was given by

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Pope Francis. And we can of course list a long

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litany of problems with Francis.

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Speaker 3: Now, I'm sure that we're going to hear a two.

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Speaker 4: Quoque that you have corrupt bishops too, Orthodox have Acuminist bishops.

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But we don't have everything hinging on one dude, his infallibility,

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his indefectibility, and his universal jurisdiction. In fact, the Vatican itself.

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In the Chia eighty document, paragraph nineteen admits in the

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very last section appeals to the Bishop of Rome in

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the first thousand years. It's talking about express the communion

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of the Church. However, the Bishop of Rome did not

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exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East. Now

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this is on the Vatican website. I'm not saying they're

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dogmatic statements. I don't need to say that they're dogmatic

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statements because essentially they're admitting the collegiality and the sonidality

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that the Orthodox Church has been arguing for the last

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thousand years against the Roman Catholic Church. Now that was

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eighty and twenty, I think sixteen, and then a couple

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of years ago there was a part two to CHI

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eighty called the Alexandria Document. In the Alexandria Document, you

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have all the things that I've been talking about admitted

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by the Vatican, including paragraph one point three, the false

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decretals and the donation of Constantine contributing to this geopolitical

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world power of the papacy.

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Speaker 3: In the Middle Ages.

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Speaker 4: Again, it has now been discarded. So I want to

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know why is it that it was necessary for me

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to believe in the universal geopolitical quisatsaderack doctrine of the

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papacy to be saved in the year fourteen hundred. It

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wasn't necessary in the year five hundred because nobody taught

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that or believe that in the year five hundred. And

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then now again we're back to it doesn't count and

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you don't have to believe that anymore because the Vatican

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now says that religious liberty is the highest of all

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of the excise me religious liberty is the goal that

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all states should pursue when it comes to the role

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of church and state.

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Speaker 1: You have forty five seconds, and lastly, I want to

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I want to talk about let's see.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I got through shady now I'll go ahead and

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stop there. I think I got to puppy. Yeah, that's

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that's all my saying.

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Speaker 1: Okay, great, And you know, obviously there's a lot of

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a lot of questions here, and so the Catholic position

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I feel like is more well understood by people. But

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like I mentioned, you know, it is very very hard,

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especially just just so you know for myself. You know,

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some of the nuances of how we know that the

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papacy is divine or that we know that it's been

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passed down apostolically and there hasn't been you know, bribes

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and confusion. I think I'm not I'm not convinced, and

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I know not a lot of you know, some people aren't.

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And just to clarify, this isn'tciting with the Orthodox or anything.

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But you know, sometimes I meet a lot of young

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Catholics and they, you know, believe in this very very strongly,

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but then don't know about some of the nuances. And

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so I hope you can answer some of our questions,

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you know, during this time or understand them.

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Speaker 2: So you have an opening statement, I'm gonna give you.

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Speaker 1: I give him ten minutes and thirty seconds, So let

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me add an extra thirty seconds here to the clock.

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Speaker 2: Give me a moment. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Arguing the Catholic position here on the is that? Is

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it correct to cull the Apostolic succession?

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Speaker 2: Here? Is that? Or it was slightly different? The papacy

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a little bit different.

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Speaker 3: The papacy is a special instance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, great, you have ten ten minutes and thirty seconds,

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Timothy Gordon. You can find them on YouTube and all

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across the internet. Your time starts now.

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Speaker 3: Well, Jay's wright, the church's sonatyl, and every synod requires

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a head. The prompt to this section that I didn't

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hear one word from jay On is did Jesus establish

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the patrine office or the papacy or something which is

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a chronology two thousand years old. It's either a yes

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or a no. And if it's demonstrated that Jesus established

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a papacy, then it doesn't matter what might have happened

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eighteen hundred years, nineteen hundred years into the papacy, for

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better or for worse, what would matter? I guess at

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that point Christianity would be destroyed. It wouldn't be Roman

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Catholicism that would be destroyed if and only if Jesus

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established a pontificate to head his one church. And that's

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the fact. When Christ built his church, he didn't leave

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us with a theory of unity, but with a living office.

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Because again synods require heads, the rock, the keys, the shepherd,

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all of these have meaning. From the first sent to today,

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that office has always been recognized in the Bishop of Rome.

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The question tonight and third prompt is very simple. Did

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Christ intend a church with a center of unity or

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did he intend a circularly premised epistemology question begging vetteration

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of fourteen or more churches that fractures whenever disputes arise,

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and where you define the councils as being ecumenical when

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we accept them, but the accepted councils are how we

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know they're ecumenical. That's the Orthodox way. That's the way.

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Anytime you have a synod without a head, there has

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to be a visible sign of unity or else it

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doesn't make any sense. Remember, throughout this debate, if Christ

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established the papacy, which was universal to all of Christianity

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for over a thousand years, which is why Jay won't

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address the point in time that Christ established or didn't

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establish the papacy, and the papacy has later disproved, and

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then it's Christianity that is false, not just Roman Catholicism.

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So that's really really important. I hope that that point

439
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resonates with people. Either Christ did or Christ didn't. We're

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going to assess that. I'm going to assess that tonight

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because that's the prompt. And by the way, yes, all

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bishops can be said to succeed Peter in a sense.

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Many of the Patristics say this, but Rome succeeds him

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in a special way. The debates not whether or not

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the Church has visible unity, but where that unity is

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concretely safeguarded the papacy, the good popes, the bad popes,

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the mediocre popes, it's concretely safeguarded there. Jesus want all

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to be one so that they could believe in John's Gospel,

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Chapter seventeen, and Orthodoxy simply doesn't have it, which is

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why Jay won't address this. There is no oneness, no

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one holy, Catholic, Apostolic. You can point out incoherencies that

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you believe in here in the papacy. But if Christ

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established it, then that disproves all of Christianity. The Catholic

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position is that I'll show it tonight. Christ established the

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papacy as a perpetual principle of unity. The Vatican two

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document restates this. Orthodox often will affirm papal primacy but

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deny universal jurisdiction, which is a nonsensical distinction. The question

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is did Christ intend a merely honorific primacy or a

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juridical universal one. In other words, can the pope actually

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make decisions for all of the churches around the world.

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There's three scriptural foundations for the papacy. It's Matthew chapter sixteen,

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verse eighteen to nineteen. You're Peter on this rock, I

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will build my church. I will give you the keys.

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There's Luke chapter twenty two, verse thirty one thirty two.

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Christ praise uniquely for Peter among all of the twelve,

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that his faith may not fail, so that he alone

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may strengthen his brethren, confirm his brethren. John twenty one

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is the third papal scripture. Peter is entrusted with universal shepherding.

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He says three times feed my lambs, feed my sheep,

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ten tend my lambs. This triad shows something jurisdictional. It's

471
00:24:20,799 --> 00:24:24,559
anagogical language. So let's go to the Patristic testimony, because

472
00:24:24,559 --> 00:24:27,920
once again we're trying to assess whether or not Jesus

473
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,240
actually established the papacy, not whether or not Pope Francis

474
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,680
signed the Chady Document or whatever. Two thousand years later.

475
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,240
We're trying to say, did Jesus establish this at the beginning?

476
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,960
Well in the most and most people don't know this.

477
00:24:42,079 --> 00:24:44,880
It's been either hidden from them or they've been brainwashed.

478
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,640
Clement of Rome before the year one hundred successor direct

479
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:55,599
successor Peter intervenes authoritatively in Corinth while the apostle John

480
00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,559
is still alive in Ephesus. This is the early known

481
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,119
exercise of Roman authority. He intervenes Clement of Rome. This

482
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,519
is the year ninety six AD, and it's a well

483
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,079
established thing, though most Christians know nothing of it. Ignacious

484
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,519
of Antioch. Just eleven years later, one of the earliest

485
00:25:16,559 --> 00:25:20,759
Patristics calls the Roman Church the one presiding in love

486
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,839
the way this term president comes from this idea of

487
00:25:23,839 --> 00:25:26,039
presiding in love. In his Letters to the Letter to

488
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,880
the Romans, Ierinaeus less than a century later, in one

489
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,920
eight AD, insists that all churches must agree with the

490
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,079
Roman Church because of its pre eminent authority direct quote

491
00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:42,079
and against heresies. Pre eminent authority. Have you ever heard

492
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:47,039
Aeronaus cided this early on, before even the year too,

493
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,720
almost halfway before the Nicene Council, the first ecumenical council.

494
00:25:51,759 --> 00:25:55,640
You have three of these guys saying pre eminent presiding.

495
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,640
One of the earliest popes intervenes in Corinth two fifty

496
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,759
one AD, Cyprian of Carthage. Though he classes with Pope Stephen,

497
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,000
he still calls Rome the chair of Peter in the

498
00:26:08,039 --> 00:26:12,880
Principal Church from which sasserdotal unity has arisen Principal p

499
00:26:13,079 --> 00:26:17,599
Pa l. This is all before Nicia. People don't know it,

500
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,000
and it's a shame that they don't know it. What

501
00:26:21,079 --> 00:26:24,400
they also don't know is that among the ecumenical now

502
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,960
there's this this circularity operating within Orthodoxy because they don't

503
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,759
have a principle of unity or oneness on earth. They'll

504
00:26:31,759 --> 00:26:35,119
say the councils ecumenical when we accept them. When we

505
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,559
don't like them, we won't accept them. And we know

506
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,480
because they're not ecumenical. So it's a classic question begging

507
00:26:41,519 --> 00:26:46,839
er potisio principio the first ecumenical Council Nicea three twenty

508
00:26:46,839 --> 00:26:54,240
five has Canon six, which Jay referenced this. Actually, i'm

509
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,519
glad he brought it up. It presupposes Roman primacy as

510
00:26:58,559 --> 00:27:06,480
a precedent for the Alexandria and Antioch patriarchies. It's a

511
00:27:06,519 --> 00:27:12,359
precedent for them. It's really important. It grounds Alexandria's authority

512
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,839
by appealing to Rome's customs as the standard. So it's

513
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,079
not saying that they're equal, it's saying that Rome has

514
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,839
primacy a complete misreading of this. Rome isn't local, so

515
00:27:24,839 --> 00:27:27,319
it would make no sense to compare one of the

516
00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:30,680
Eastern churches to Rome. Rome is the standard bear. It

517
00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:35,599
is an established, far away authority. Rome primacy, not equality.

518
00:27:35,599 --> 00:27:40,000
That's right there. Canon six Council of Nicea and Nicea

519
00:27:40,039 --> 00:27:42,559
also establishes the four marks of the Church, which the

520
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:45,440
Catholic Church alone really claims, as far as I know,

521
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,039
one Holy Catholic Apostolic Orthodox can claim because they have

522
00:27:50,079 --> 00:27:53,079
sacraments and real bishops. They can claim two of them

523
00:27:53,519 --> 00:27:56,359
wholly in Apostolic, but they can't claim the other two.

524
00:27:56,559 --> 00:27:59,960
One certainly, I've never heard of it. Maybe I'm wrong,

525
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,559
but the Federation of Orthodox Churches can claim too. At

526
00:28:05,559 --> 00:28:09,319
the Council of Aphesis, which is the third ecumenical council

527
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,720
accepted by both Catholics and Orthodox what happened is you

528
00:28:13,839 --> 00:28:19,960
had an appeal to Rome to the Pope to excommunicate

529
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:26,079
the Patriarch of Constantinople by another Eastern father, the head

530
00:28:26,079 --> 00:28:28,839
of the whole, Sorry, Holly and blessed Peter. It's written

531
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:30,759
the Prince and head of the Apostles, the column of

532
00:28:30,759 --> 00:28:33,680
the Faith, the foundation of the Catholic Church received the

533
00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:36,319
keys of the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ, and

534
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,279
that tim was given the power of binding and loosing sins,

535
00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:41,720
who until this day and forever lives in judges in

536
00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:45,359
his successors. So it's not just Peter alone, in his successors,

537
00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:47,559
he binds the head of the whole faith, the head

538
00:28:47,599 --> 00:28:52,400
of the Apostles is Blessed Peter. This comes directly from

539
00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:55,519
that third Council ephesis. The head of the whole faith,

540
00:28:55,559 --> 00:28:57,640
the head of the Apostles, is Blessed Peter. This is

541
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,680
not an honorific this is direct. Cyril of Alexandria, who's

542
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,720
the one wrote writing the Pope asking him to excommunicate

543
00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:09,279
what would become the number two in the church, says,

544
00:29:09,559 --> 00:29:12,240
we rely on the authority of the Blessed Apostle Peter,

545
00:29:12,359 --> 00:29:15,240
on whom the church was founded, and whose successor, the

546
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,079
blessed Pope Celestine is. He writes directly to Pope Celestine,

547
00:29:19,119 --> 00:29:21,519
and he says, your holiness, who holds the place of Peter,

548
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,680
the Prince of the Apostles. They're all princes in a sense,

549
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,119
but Peter's Prince of princes has rightly judged this matter

550
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,680
and condemned this Storius. In what honorary sense would you

551
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,480
appeal to someone and say, fire this guy, excommunicate this guy,

552
00:29:36,519 --> 00:29:41,400
which is an extra important firing. You wouldn't. It's absurd.

553
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,079
At the Council of Chalcedon, the very next council, after

554
00:29:45,119 --> 00:29:50,279
Pope Leo's tone is read, it says Peter has spoken

555
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,160
through Leo, showing that there's a lineage, a very direct lineage,

556
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,200
and it's Peter the prince. Leo's now the prince. Because,

557
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,559
by the way, at this Fourth Ecumenical Council, it shows

558
00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:05,240
the epistemic flaw in Orthodoxy. You know that it's circular.

559
00:30:05,319 --> 00:30:08,400
The councilors are ecumenical when we accept them, but only

560
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,359
the accepted councils are ecumenical. There is another group, the

561
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,039
Oriental Orthodox, who broke away and they never accepted the

562
00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:21,400
Fourth Ecumenical Council. We have what we Catholics have a

563
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,200
way we agree with the the Eastern Orthodox. This is

564
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,319
a valid council. We agree with each other about that.

565
00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:27,720
We have a way to show it. We have a

566
00:30:27,799 --> 00:30:31,440
visible sign of unity. We know that synods all have heads.

567
00:30:31,759 --> 00:30:34,880
The Orthodox can't the Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox and the

568
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,039
Oriental Orthodox are still at odds over the fourth Ecumenical

569
00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:43,160
Council Constantinople three. Uh, Peter is Prince of the Apostles

570
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,079
who continues the promise undefiled to the end. And I

571
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,720
see it too. Primacial authority every jay agrees with this council.

572
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,519
Primacial authority everywhere on earth was given by the Redeemer

573
00:30:54,559 --> 00:30:58,079
of the world himself to the Apostle Peter Constantinople four.

574
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,880
It's their council. It reads the letter of Pope John

575
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,200
the eighth, the chief of the Apostles. Peter has the

576
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:10,720
authority of universal binding and loosing. This is indisputable that

577
00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:13,200
at the time of the founding of the Church and

578
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,680
the immediate chain of evidence thereafter for the next seven councils,

579
00:31:17,279 --> 00:31:22,000
you have a universal appellate jurisdiction of the Pope, which

580
00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:25,279
is why he could excommunicate, and he was being sought

581
00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:26,279
for excommunication.

582
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: All right, you're gonna complete your thoughts there, because I

583
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,640
think we probably should haven't on the time right there?

584
00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:33,799
What's it that we should probably on the time? Already

585
00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:35,359
in the bleed, you're hitting towards a minute. If you

586
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:36,839
one another minute, you don't have to concede a minute

587
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:37,440
on the next round.

588
00:31:38,599 --> 00:31:42,319
Speaker 3: Uh no, that's fine, all right.

589
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: There with the opening statements, I want to one in

590
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,039
the chat if you think that you know, we're getting

591
00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:50,640
to a point to where you think that Timothy had

592
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,160
a better opening statement right there, or two in the chat,

593
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,759
if you think that Jay had a better statement, Let's

594
00:31:55,759 --> 00:31:57,720
go right into the rebuttal. We'll read some super chats.

595
00:31:57,759 --> 00:32:02,400
After the rebuttal, I think we'll just go yeah, we'll

596
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:02,799
go to Jay.

597
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: Jay.

598
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: From that opening statement, you're writing down some questions. Give

599
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,160
me your best rebuttal. I'm going to reset the clock

600
00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:12,039
to put it down to five minutes. Let's try to

601
00:32:12,119 --> 00:32:14,039
keep it tight at five and not go over in

602
00:32:14,119 --> 00:32:16,640
any bleed. You can't have a thirty second bleed if

603
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,240
you need, I'm resetting it to a standard time.

604
00:32:20,119 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: You can begin now.

605
00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

606
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 4: Well, the reason that I didn't go into the question

607
00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:27,000
about Matthew and the passages in the Book of John

608
00:32:27,119 --> 00:32:30,400
or Luke or whatever is that we don't disagree that

609
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,200
there's apostolic succession from Peter, but I don't know if

610
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,680
he's aware of it. Peter is actually called the father

611
00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:39,200
of three Ce's. In fact, you can read Pope saying

612
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,599
Gregory the Great in his letter number forty where he

613
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,839
talks about the Apostolic see being three chairs, so as

614
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,279
late as Gregory the Great in his day, he's still

615
00:32:50,319 --> 00:32:55,880
calling Rome, Antioch and Alexandria the patrine sea. So nobody

616
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,400
disagrees that Rome is first. And he cited St. Erin

617
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,839
As and against heresies, but he didn't tell you why.

618
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,119
Irenaeus says that it is given this honor and authority.

619
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,480
He says it is doubly apostolic Peter and Paul. Maybe

620
00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:10,440
he's not aware of the fact that by the time

621
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,160
of Vatican One they actually reject the position of the

622
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,559
argumentation of St. Aernaeus that you cannot say that Rome

623
00:33:16,599 --> 00:33:19,920
has its supremacy because of Paul in any sense. So

624
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,160
even though Paul is honored still in Rome because he

625
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,279
was martyred. There the only reason that Rome has this

626
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:31,279
supposed indefectibility, it's universal jurisdiction and so forth, is supposedly

627
00:33:31,319 --> 00:33:35,920
because of a petrine tradition and terrorism. However, Pope saying

628
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,799
Gregory the Great, who himself was a pope, doesn't have

629
00:33:38,799 --> 00:33:41,839
a problem still talking about there being three petrine seas.

630
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,279
Speaker 3: But of course Roman Catholics never.

631
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,759
Speaker 4: Talk about that because they don't give you the context

632
00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:48,480
behind these comments. In these statements, let me read what

633
00:33:48,599 --> 00:33:52,240
the Canon six of Nicia actually says. It says, let

634
00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:56,920
the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pantapolis prevail. Now

635
00:33:57,079 --> 00:33:59,880
noe the references to customs. There's no reference to a

636
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:03,640
divine terrorism, to divine law. It's only two ancient customs

637
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,839
that in all of these the Bishop Alexandria has jurisdiction

638
00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:10,800
since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome. Likewise,

639
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,119
in Antioch and other provinces. He just assumed that Rome

640
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,679
was a universal and so it just doesn't really count.

641
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,119
But the jurisdictions are being likened to Rome, and his

642
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:23,679
argument is just that, well, but yeah, but of course

643
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,679
everybody knows that Rome was universal jurisdictions really because he's

644
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:31,360
not aware of the fact that appellate structure and the

645
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,719
synod and Canons of Sartica actually prove our position, because

646
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,679
what Sartoka says is not that the Roman bishop has

647
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,119
the final say. Rather, they actually say that the Roman

648
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:47,000
bishop could be appealed to as well as other patriarchs

649
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,920
and bishops can be appealed to and we're appealed to

650
00:34:49,079 --> 00:34:52,800
and he can order a retrial in that jurisdiction. It

651
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:57,119
is the opposite of the Vatican one papal autocracy position.

652
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,400
Allow me to read his own Vatican statement from the

653
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,480
Chi eighty document, which he should have read. Over the centuries,

654
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,159
many appeals were made to the Bishop of Rome from

655
00:35:06,199 --> 00:35:09,960
the East in disciplinary matters, such as the deposition of

656
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,360
a bishop. An attempt was made at Sartika in three

657
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,320
forty three to establish the rules for this procedure. Sartica

658
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,280
was received of the Council of Trello in six pot

659
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,079
ninety two, which his church rejects. The Canons of Sartaka

660
00:35:20,199 --> 00:35:22,440
determined that a bishop who has been condemned could appeal

661
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,679
to the Bishop of Rome, and that in the latter,

662
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,719
if he did, inappropriate, might order a retrial. Oh, that's

663
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,199
not the autocratic Vatican One view that he was arguing

664
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,599
for that he hoped would be the kill shot. Rather,

665
00:35:34,199 --> 00:35:36,519
this could be conducted by the bishops and the province

666
00:35:36,639 --> 00:35:41,360
neighboring that person's bishop. Appeals regarding these matters were all disciplinary.

667
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,519
Matters were also made to Constantinople and to other sees.

668
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,400
Oh dang, that's Snodl. That's collegial. By the way, Athanasius

669
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,320
and people who are in these situations to read the

670
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,559
letters of Saint Basil. As I mentioned earlier, he wasn't

671
00:35:54,599 --> 00:35:58,039
aware of the Malician schism, and as Denny notes in

672
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:03,639
the chapter in Papalism, constantinople One had called and closed

673
00:36:03,679 --> 00:36:07,599
outside of commune with Rome, and in fact, later centuries later,

674
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,239
Rome accepts constantinople One retroactively.

675
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:11,559
Speaker 3: That's a problem for his position.

676
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,199
Speaker 4: But out of all this, I would amind him that

677
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,039
he seems to not be aware of Pope Vigilius and

678
00:36:17,079 --> 00:36:20,320
the really strong case that we have there. As Ubi

679
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,079
brought up to Ibarra, if you remember Arbara saying, oh.

680
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 5: I haven't found actually a good answer to that question yet,

681
00:36:26,559 --> 00:36:29,960
but we'll come moot the way it eventually. Maybe Why

682
00:36:30,039 --> 00:36:33,559
is this? Why is Vigilius such a key point? Virgilius

683
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:39,840
submitted to the Ecumenical Council after reversing his position four

684
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,199
different times. So wait a minute, let me get this right.

685
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 4: Vatican one, which says that the Roman bishop is the

686
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,920
head of all the churches, has universal jurisdiction, even though

687
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,079
his own Vatican documents like the Chieti document admit that

688
00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:53,400
the Roman bishop didn't.

689
00:36:53,159 --> 00:36:55,559
Speaker 3: Have universal jurisdiction in the first thousand years.

690
00:36:56,039 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 4: Now Virgilius has to submit to and does submit to

691
00:36:59,039 --> 00:37:02,559
the ecumenical count's judgment and being removed from the diptys.

692
00:37:03,159 --> 00:37:06,079
That's a problem position for him and for Ericubara. I

693
00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:11,119
don't have to prove every single specific to disprove rom Catholicism.

694
00:37:11,199 --> 00:37:15,760
All I need is one dogmatic contradiction or one papal

695
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,159
failure such as Vigilia submitted to a council, which shows

696
00:37:19,199 --> 00:37:23,519
that Vatican One is false, that ecumenical councils are inferior

697
00:37:23,599 --> 00:37:26,519
to and always subordinate to the Pope, to prove his

698
00:37:26,599 --> 00:37:29,840
position is false, just like when he tried to cite

699
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,440
other examples like well, Orthodox don't have any position that's

700
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:34,280
really consistent.

701
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:35,639
Speaker 3: Wait a minute.

702
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 4: Latter in six forty nine condemned monothelitism and was intended

703
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,559
by Pope Martin to be an ecumenical council, and yet

704
00:37:43,639 --> 00:37:46,360
it was not accepted as an ecumenical council. And there

705
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:51,000
was another council that happened called Constantinople III, where they

706
00:37:51,079 --> 00:37:55,719
themselves decided to condemn the positions based on investigating the

707
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,719
theology of Saint Maximus. It's not Pope Saint Martin that

708
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:03,199
is the key to side figure of Constantinople three, which

709
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,199
if the Vatican One papacy position were true, he would

710
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,719
have already solved the issue Roma spoken cases closed supposedly,

711
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,000
we're told right, But he also doesn't seem to be

712
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,199
aware that if you'd read on the history of Chalcedon,

713
00:38:14,559 --> 00:38:18,559
Roma spoken cases closed isn't actually because Leo is the

714
00:38:18,599 --> 00:38:21,199
standard and test of orthodoxy at Calcedon. If you'd read

715
00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:23,400
any of the academic literature on it, he would know that.

716
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,159
Even his Roman Catholic scholars admit that Cyril is the

717
00:38:27,199 --> 00:38:32,079
standard of orthodoxy at Calcedon, and Leo is checked against

718
00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:36,079
Cyril by Chalcedon. For many weeks, Orsi me many days

719
00:38:36,159 --> 00:38:39,519
investigating to see if the tone matches up to Leo.

720
00:38:39,679 --> 00:38:44,400
Now I disproved his position by pointing out one dogmatic

721
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,039
contradiction amongst many, which was that for centuries you had

722
00:38:49,039 --> 00:38:51,159
to believe in the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop.

723
00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:53,719
You didn't have to believe it for centuries before that,

724
00:38:54,159 --> 00:38:55,960
and now we don't have to believe it anymore. Past

725
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,320
Vatican two in the religious liberty and ecumenist pronouncements.

726
00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:01,559
Speaker 1: That's a kind tradiction. All right, I'm gonna give you

727
00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:04,000
an extra minute because he took an extra minute. Go ahead, Timothy,

728
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,719
I'm gonna reset the clock. Give me one moment to

729
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,679
add an extra minute and reset. Okay, you have six

730
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,920
minutes on the clock for your rebuttal go ahead.

731
00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 3: There's absolutely no dogmatic contradiction, so that can two. We

732
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,760
have an ecumenical Council that happens after the fall of

733
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,679
the Holy Roman Empire, after the fall of all of

734
00:39:25,679 --> 00:39:29,239
the confessional states on earth, so only the confessional states

735
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,840
are bound, because of course secular states can't be bound

736
00:39:33,599 --> 00:39:35,199
by the pope. The Pope can tell them what to do,

737
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,800
but they're not going to do it. This was always

738
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,960
the context of this discipline. It's a discipline anyway. By

739
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,760
the way, the Pope has only in the last thousand

740
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:51,119
years identifiably spoken ex cathedral making doctrine twice twice count

741
00:39:51,119 --> 00:39:54,440
them twice, one in around eighteen fifty one, around nineteen

742
00:39:54,519 --> 00:39:58,440
fifty and in both of those cases the Pope pulled

743
00:39:58,519 --> 00:40:02,079
all of the bishops first. Because this is what's consistent

744
00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:04,719
with the papal power going all the way back to Peter,

745
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,159
he pulled to make sure that he did not make

746
00:40:09,199 --> 00:40:12,840
an ex cathedral statement, or in eighteen fifty four and

747
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,360
then in nineteen fifty one, the only two ex cathedral

748
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:22,480
statements that would disprove the papacy by being wrong. He

749
00:40:22,559 --> 00:40:26,159
polled all of the bishops because there's collegial brethren, and

750
00:40:26,199 --> 00:40:29,159
then he named the third and the fourth Marion dogma

751
00:40:29,199 --> 00:40:31,719
ex cathedral. So Jay's always just skipping over the fact

752
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,199
that the pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra.

753
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,679
This is a most fundamental claim. And by the way,

754
00:40:39,079 --> 00:40:43,320
popes can be heretics, whether you're talking about Honorious or

755
00:40:44,679 --> 00:40:47,800
other problematic popes that were borderline heretics throughout the way.

756
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,159
Most of the majority of Catholic scholars think that popes

757
00:40:51,519 --> 00:40:54,840
can actually be heretics. They just can't contradict themselves when

758
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,719
they're speaking ex cathedra. And this would be really clear

759
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,239
if Jay had read the Rolazzio of bish Gasser at

760
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,760
Vatican One. It's very, very, very consistent with the collegial

761
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:12,320
papacy of the previous eighteen one hundred years. Now there

762
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:18,679
are I would say in exegiting Matthew Chapter sixteen, Luke

763
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,880
twenty two, John twenty one. There are Eastern scholars, Theodor

764
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,880
Studit Abu Karah who exegited exactly the way that we do.

765
00:41:28,039 --> 00:41:32,880
Antioch and Alexandria also succeed Peter because Mark went on

766
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,840
to Alexandria. Peter used to be at Antioch. It's very,

767
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:43,880
very very clear that we're not reading into the text.

768
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:44,599
Speaker 2: Now.

769
00:41:44,599 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 3: The question at hand is did Christ establish a binding,

770
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:55,440
unifying papacy. I've shown through the scripture through Patristic scholars

771
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,360
in the first two centuries that he did. One of

772
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:03,519
the very first popes after literally was exercising a jurisdiction

773
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,119
at several of the ecumenical councils, you had an appeal

774
00:42:07,159 --> 00:42:09,800
to the appellate jurisdiction of Rome. I'm not just gonna

775
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,400
sit here and repeat the quotations from the ACTA of

776
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:19,599
those councils where they're saying Rome alone, knowing that doctrinal

777
00:42:20,519 --> 00:42:24,639
unity requires a visible sign. So, like I said, the

778
00:42:24,639 --> 00:42:30,079
original argument is, if Christ established a papacy, then if

779
00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:33,760
that papacy should fail, all of Christianity fails. That's just

780
00:42:34,039 --> 00:42:36,079
a fact. Now, if he didn't establish the papacy, then

781
00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:39,519
that wouldn't be the case. But pointing out historical difficulties,

782
00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:41,840
even if I granted him, which I don't later in

783
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:47,119
the timeline, doesn't accomplish what Jay claims it does. So

784
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,760
if Christ established the papacy, then prevailing would require not

785
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,119
that Catholicism is false, but Christianity is. Remember like Back

786
00:42:54,159 --> 00:42:58,480
to the Future too, when Doc explains to Marty by

787
00:42:58,559 --> 00:43:00,559
use of a chalkboard, why they wound up in an

788
00:43:00,599 --> 00:43:04,360
altered nineteen eighty five, Because the source of the problematic

789
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,519
timeline lay at the very beginning of the story in

790
00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:09,920
nineteen fifty five. If you want to disprove the papacy,

791
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,360
you have to go to the beginning of the story

792
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,440
and show that Christ didn't establish a papacy. You can't

793
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,719
just sit and if you're a Christian anyway, you can't

794
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,039
sit around and point out what you don't like about

795
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:26,000
Pope Francis sheady document not a magisterial document, by the way,

796
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:33,840
definitely not infallible. It can't point at any of the

797
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,000
documents that Jay is going to tonight to get to

798
00:43:36,039 --> 00:43:38,760
the beginning of the timeline. In the case of Christianity,

799
00:43:39,039 --> 00:43:43,960
the papacy was from the very beginning universally accepted occasionally

800
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,639
grudgingly by these But they accepted it for a thousand years.

801
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,719
I mean this should be more compelling to people that

802
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,760
are passive standers by. Why was it accepted for a

803
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:54,800
thousand years? Over a thousand years, and then it was

804
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,239
just okay not to They just hope you don't see

805
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,519
that fact. There's a brute fact established beyond any doubt,

806
00:44:01,639 --> 00:44:04,199
not even Jay's going to disagree with me. Was accepted

807
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,199
for over half of the timeline of Christianity, and now

808
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,599
they just whistle past the fact that it's no longer accepted.

809
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,159
Instead Eastern orthodoxy. You'll never hear a defense of this

810
00:44:16,559 --> 00:44:20,000
because it's a coherentist rather than a foundationalist position. Jay's

811
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,760
not trying to build anything, He's just trying to poke

812
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:26,440
holes in the papacy. They insist on a popeless ecclesiology,

813
00:44:26,599 --> 00:44:30,679
one with wilful blindness about its own thousand year acceptance

814
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,519
of the pontificate until they didn't want to anymore. Who's epistemology,

815
00:44:34,559 --> 00:44:39,960
which is really just conciliarism, A valid council's ecumenical We

816
00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:43,559
know that it's ecumenical because we deem its valid destroys

817
00:44:43,559 --> 00:44:46,719
itself for all to see. Like at Chalcedon when you

818
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,079
had the Oriental Orthodox break away from the Eastern Orthodox.

819
00:44:50,119 --> 00:44:54,920
They still don't agree about much. It's a circular rule

820
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,880
of faith, and you're never going to hear them build

821
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,719
this up, the circular rule of faith, because it's indefensible.

822
00:45:02,039 --> 00:45:04,800
Their hierarchy can and does fall into heresy. This is

823
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,599
not just too quoque way. They're not bound to accept

824
00:45:07,639 --> 00:45:11,400
ecumenical councils. The councils are ecumenical when we accept them,

825
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,880
and the accepted councils are ecumenical. This is the rule

826
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,360
of faith if you really press on Orthodoxy at all.

827
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,519
There is no epistemological framework for determining which councils are

828
00:45:20,519 --> 00:45:23,159
ecumenical and why that's not true in Roman Catholicism. In

829
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,559
Roman Catholicism, we have this visible sign of unity, three

830
00:45:26,639 --> 00:45:31,800
scriptural passages, several of the of the early Fathers, interpreting

831
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,960
them exactly the way we do. And with no living,

832
00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:38,440
visible authority or sign of unity, how is the Eastern

833
00:45:38,519 --> 00:45:42,239
Orthodox believer to know which councils to accept. They simply

834
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,599
won't tell you this well, because it's just true. You

835
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:46,360
just have to accept it as true. It's a question

836
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,360
begging Roman Catholics have the papacy to tell us, and no,

837
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,760
we don't just accept the papacy blindly. We accept it

838
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:58,159
because Christ established it. So circularity ends up being embraced

839
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,639
as a kind of theological history because this is the

840
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:06,800
last resort. For example, the rejection of Florence. Florence was

841
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,440
the Reunion Council in fourteen thirty nine. Thirty one out

842
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,960
of thirty three of their delegates at Florence signed it

843
00:46:14,039 --> 00:46:16,119
and said we were wrong about the Philly Oakuay, we

844
00:46:16,119 --> 00:46:19,639
were wrong about the papacy. And then they went home

845
00:46:19,639 --> 00:46:23,000
in ten twelve, fourteen years later, had a revolt and

846
00:46:23,159 --> 00:46:26,559
under duress, were forced to undo it. And you ask them,

847
00:46:26,559 --> 00:46:29,039
how do you know that council wasn't ecumenical because we

848
00:46:29,079 --> 00:46:33,039
didn't like the outcome. It's that simple, all right.

849
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 2: I only hear us one's in the chat.

850
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: By the way, if if you think that Timothy Gordon

851
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,360
had the better rebuttal, and I like to see two's

852
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,880
in the chats. If you think Jay Dyer had the

853
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,440
better rebuttal, will be give them a second to get

854
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,719
ready for their cross examination. Just to read a couple

855
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:53,559
of the super chats here, Tiaguinowski said orthodox were actually.

856
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,039
Speaker 2: The first Protestants. Lonian S.

857
00:46:57,519 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: Just said, they want to tell you, Gordon that the

858
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,760
Orientals and Assyrians don't have autocratic popes that had bishops

859
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,719
are first among equals, just like the eoposition the fourth century.

860
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,599
Speaker 2: They didn't have RC papism in mind either.

861
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: Orthodoxy Phrenosis said Roman Catholicism has the papacy, Orthodoxy has

862
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,960
the church only one heels taint.

863
00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 2: Nothing, said Tim, That's just a fact, Gordon.

864
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 1: We have Lauren first that popes can be material heretics,

865
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,480
but not formal, and we've certainly had our share of

866
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,119
material heresies in the last six decades from popes. Plays

867
00:47:30,159 --> 00:47:31,679
on the right thing. Also, the pope is a local,

868
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,760
metropolitan and universal bishop. The Canon six of Nicea is

869
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,199
simply referring to the pope's metropolitan duties.

870
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:38,280
Speaker 2: No contradiction.

871
00:47:39,119 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 1: We also have Orthodoxy, Chloroquins, and Orthodox and Muslim countries

872
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:46,400
have zero World Cups and a debate. God doesn't like

873
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:52,679
schismatics or heretics. Haydes Undead at twenty three sixty six

874
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,119
said Jay despite being the oldest is still the best

875
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:59,519
EDVA masterclass rapper on this show. I appreciate all the work. Jay,

876
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,639
you're killing it as always. Jamie owes you an octople

877
00:48:03,199 --> 00:48:06,400
espresso shot. I can witness that I did. I remember

878
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,400
he was here and he asked for coffee, and like

879
00:48:08,679 --> 00:48:11,039
most people, put a little milk in your coffee. Some

880
00:48:11,079 --> 00:48:14,320
people say it's gay, it is gay. It's very poppy

881
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,599
to be gay today. But milk is good in coffee.

882
00:48:16,639 --> 00:48:19,440
And then he said he just wanted coffee and proceeded

883
00:48:19,559 --> 00:48:22,559
just like just shoot like double espressos into a cup

884
00:48:22,599 --> 00:48:27,199
of rice. He just ate like bitter dark espresso that

885
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,239
burns his throat. It's the kind of man that he is.

886
00:48:30,079 --> 00:48:33,599
It's good stuff. You're just seeing the way his wife

887
00:48:33,599 --> 00:48:35,000
was looking at him, was just down.

888
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:35,519
Speaker 2: In that coffee.

889
00:48:35,559 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: What a chad colveto Antiquity said, as prought with the

890
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:45,559
following j one ask you're not even done? Ask cast

891
00:48:45,639 --> 00:48:48,199
seven seven seven cent fifty dollars. Thank you so much

892
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:49,719
for I said, why does the pope wear a little

893
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,000
hat and kiss the silly wall?

894
00:48:52,599 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 2: That's more of a rhetorical question, for sure.

895
00:48:54,559 --> 00:48:57,559
Speaker 1: Mike Hanson twenty three ninety three said, win Jay, Tim,

896
00:48:57,599 --> 00:48:59,199
the greatest moment of twenty twenty five would be to

897
00:48:59,199 --> 00:49:01,639
see you and your wife come home to the Orthodox Church.

898
00:49:02,119 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 2: May God guide your journey, Bro. You also have a

899
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:05,760
couple here.

900
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,760
Speaker 1: Another Australian said, can confirm life essence from mister Fista

901
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,880
is still spirriting from Joe Rogan. He has not passed

902
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:13,840
away yet. Jesus will not take him until he's fought

903
00:49:14,119 --> 00:49:19,320
liver King. We also have Edgy eb one six one

904
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:21,840
Oho said rock paper scissors, lizard spock.

905
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 2: It's all so clear now.

906
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: And then we have a Nathan Slippery said if a

907
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,440
woman is graped, she's passively graping the man.

908
00:49:31,559 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 2: Tim's theology. All right, we will okay.

909
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: Else read one more scalf seven seven seven el sad

910
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,039
twenty dollars and said why does the pope pray and

911
00:49:39,079 --> 00:49:40,039
synagogues and musk?

912
00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:41,280
Speaker 2: There's a lot of questions about that.

913
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: All right, we are going to go to the cross examination.

914
00:49:47,159 --> 00:49:50,039
Speaker 2: We will start with mister J. Dyer.

915
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,159
Speaker 1: You will have five minutes on the clock. Give me

916
00:49:53,159 --> 00:49:59,519
a moment here, let me reset the clock. You may begin.

917
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 3: Yeah.

918
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 4: First, I want to note that he seemed to be

919
00:50:03,519 --> 00:50:07,639
saying that there's only guidance and infallibility when it comes

920
00:50:07,679 --> 00:50:09,760
to exca theater statements. He must not be aware of

921
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,480
the fact that Vatican one says that all things are

922
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,280
divinely revealed and to be believed, whether in the Word

923
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,000
of God handed down by the Church in solemn judgments,

924
00:50:18,039 --> 00:50:21,679
which would be ex cathedral by her ordinary, and universal teaching,

925
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,280
which is proposed for belief as having been divinely revealed.

926
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,519
So do you agree that you also have to believe

927
00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:29,639
the universal ordinary teaching and the execa theater.

928
00:50:29,679 --> 00:50:32,280
Speaker 3: They're both under the charism you have the submission in

929
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,199
mind and will. That's religious, but it's not it's not

930
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,760
protected by the charism of infallibility.

931
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 4: Universal Ordinary isn't universal ordinary? Are you talking about councils

932
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,920
or popes? Universal ordinary teaching? Teaching of popes is not

933
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:48,760
is not infallible.

934
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,119
Speaker 3: That's what Vatican one says. No, it does. Yes, do

935
00:50:51,199 --> 00:50:53,639
me to read it again, Vatican again.

936
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 4: I'm gonna read Vatican one Ordinary Universal Ordinary teaching. There's

937
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,000
three structure. Do you disagree with your own and theological manuals?

938
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,119
Of course, not to talk about the three tiers. No,

939
00:51:04,199 --> 00:51:08,599
that's that's really fine. Okay, So there's ordinary magisterium. There's

940
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,400
extraordinary magisterium and there's universal ordinary magisterium. So I think

941
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,840
you're confusing the ordinary and the universal ordinary because.

942
00:51:15,519 --> 00:51:20,119
Speaker 3: We're talking papal magisterium. That's the only magisterium. Only the

943
00:51:20,159 --> 00:51:24,880
papacy is magisterium. No, so you think that ex cathedra,

944
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:32,039
he thinks ex cathedra means which guarantees that extraordinary only two.

945
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 4: No, I'm asking you about Vatican one saying that universal

946
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,119
ordinary teaching is also part of the terrorism.

947
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:43,679
Speaker 3: It's part of the keroism, so it's not protected under infallible.

948
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 4: So the terrorism is an infallible No. So the so

949
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,639
you just get refuge doing it again. You're doing it

950
00:51:49,639 --> 00:51:51,320
again when you slip up. It's my fault.

951
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 3: No, you think that ex cathedral teachings by the pope

952
00:51:54,519 --> 00:51:59,519
the sole papal teachings that enjoy the terrorism of infallibility.

953
00:51:59,599 --> 00:52:03,480
Vatican one says that the Pattican one does not say. So,

954
00:52:03,599 --> 00:52:05,360
I'm reading it to you right now. You have to

955
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:06,519
read thee.

956
00:52:07,639 --> 00:52:09,599
Speaker 2: All right. If you think you're interrupting that, almost stop

957
00:52:09,639 --> 00:52:10,079
for a second.

958
00:52:10,079 --> 00:52:13,199
Speaker 4: Well, furthermore, all things are to be believed with divine

959
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,760
Catholic faith contained in the Word of God written or

960
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,800
handed down. Yes, which the church either by solemn judgment.

961
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 3: That's ex cathedral. That's not yes, it is. It's a

962
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,880
solemn judgment of solemn judgment. It's religious submission in mind

963
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,159
and will. No, you're misunderstanding.

964
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 4: This is talking about ex cathedral or the Universal Ordinary

965
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,400
Magisterium as divinely revealed.

966
00:52:37,039 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 3: Both of them to bishops. Both of them. You're talking

967
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,400
about bishops. This is talking about the Roman sees.

968
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,679
Speaker 4: Two things that are that are protected by the terrorism

969
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,159
extraordinary and ex cathedral.

970
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,559
Speaker 3: You're wrong on this. Ordinary. You're just flat wrong. Ordinary

971
00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:56,480
and universal is all bishops, not just pope. You're wrong.

972
00:52:56,559 --> 00:53:00,079
Speaker 4: You understand wrong, your own your own manuals teach the

973
00:53:00,079 --> 00:53:00,599
there's three.

974
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 3: There's three. I know that. What are the three? What

975
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:07,480
are the three? Read them to me? Well, I thought

976
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,239
you knew. No, I do know. But you're trying to

977
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:11,239
say that the three.

978
00:53:11,039 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 4: Cathedral is is uh, that ex cathedral is not the

979
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,599
only way that a pope can speak from the chair

980
00:53:19,119 --> 00:53:23,480
with the charism of Yes. It's called universal Ordinary Magisterium

981
00:53:23,519 --> 00:53:25,360
and it's not the ordinary magisterium. No.

982
00:53:26,159 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 3: Yes, you're you're just right here. You're lying show it

983
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:30,559
to me.

984
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,599
Speaker 4: Ordinary magisterium is the regular teaching of the building.

985
00:53:34,639 --> 00:53:36,559
Speaker 3: I'm not like, can I see it? I'm going to

986
00:53:36,639 --> 00:53:39,239
read it to you, the ordinary teaching of the bishops.

987
00:53:40,119 --> 00:53:41,920
That's or tell me what orinary magistrate is.

988
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:42,760
Speaker 2: You don't want to see it?

989
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:44,800
Speaker 3: You want to see it? I want to. Yeah, this

990
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,199
gives me timpoole situation. Yeah, so I can explain to

991
00:53:48,199 --> 00:53:52,599
you what these are ordinary magisterium, individual bishop groupings of bishop,

992
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,960
Bishop of Rome. This is ordinary. This is not protected

993
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:03,440
by extraordinary magic. There's no protect protectionist college issuing a

994
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:09,320
solemn definition while it protected. Yes, that's what I'm.

995
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,079
Speaker 4: Arguing, that's the college of No, you're talking about the pope.

996
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,039
I said, that's not the pope, that pope, And you

997
00:54:15,119 --> 00:54:19,280
said it's not the bishops, the Bishop of Rose issuing

998
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:20,840
a solemn definition.

999
00:54:21,079 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 3: You know that two of the.

1000
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:29,039
Speaker 4: Two of you're deflecting two of the three are protected

1001
00:54:29,039 --> 00:54:29,840
by the terrorism.

1002
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,039
Speaker 3: No, yes they are one of them. Council one of

1003
00:54:33,039 --> 00:54:37,599
them can the pope speaking? Councils are protected the Pope speaking,

1004
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,800
But there's only one way that speak. Ex Cathedral read

1005
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:42,920
the bottom one, Jay read the bottom one.

1006
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,559
Speaker 4: The universal ordinary magisterium, according to Vatican one, is said

1007
00:54:47,599 --> 00:54:52,079
to be ordinaries. Pope, stop interrupting me. There's two things

1008
00:54:52,119 --> 00:54:54,320
that are protected by the Chroism of Peter according to

1009
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:59,679
Vatican one, solemn judgments or her ordinary Universal teaching, both

1010
00:54:59,679 --> 00:55:01,280
of the ease solemn judgments.

1011
00:55:01,679 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 3: Interrupting me, Yeah.

1012
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 1: Let him finish the statement. Let let him finish the

1013
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,480
statement trying to make a statement, and then we'll end.

1014
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 3: You have sorry, I'm not trying to interrupt you.

1015
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,159
Speaker 2: You can't handle this for a second. Ahead and finish

1016
00:55:16,159 --> 00:55:18,079
the last statement. You have thirty extra seconds.

1017
00:55:18,159 --> 00:55:22,800
Speaker 4: These two things, solemn judgments and the ordinary Universal Teaching,

1018
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,440
are divinely revealed and protected according to this.

1019
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:27,599
Speaker 3: Can I see it now?

1020
00:55:28,199 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 4: Can I? Can I rebuke? You know he's just but

1021
00:55:30,519 --> 00:55:34,639
he's darning out the time. Now keep going. He doesn't

1022
00:55:34,639 --> 00:55:37,400
want I can explain it to you explain it because

1023
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:38,920
I'm cross examined me on it.

1024
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 3: Hey, the only statements he's supposed to be asking me

1025
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:42,199
a question.

1026
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,079
Speaker 2: Well, he hasn't gotten made a mistake.

1027
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,639
Speaker 3: Trying to run from the Universal magisterial teaching. No, you

1028
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:50,079
are cas statement.

1029
00:55:50,159 --> 00:55:54,639
Speaker 4: So the only statements by popes in under Vatican one

1030
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,000
in pastory turnis the only.

1031
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:58,360
Speaker 3: Single one off you didn't read.

1032
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,679
Speaker 4: You didn't read the whole document the said otherwise universal

1033
00:56:03,679 --> 00:56:08,280
universal Ordinary Magisterium. According to Vatican one, is also protected

1034
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,400
under the terrorism I told him not air popes.

1035
00:56:11,519 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 3: Ordinarily, popes in their ordinary have to be followed with.

1036
00:56:18,199 --> 00:56:21,639
Speaker 2: Answer the questions. Don't want some time to ask the

1037
00:56:21,639 --> 00:56:22,159
one question?

1038
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,280
Speaker 3: Why are you not answering questions? What's the question?

1039
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 2: Answer? Answer?

1040
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 4: You know what the question was hot the time? Yeah,

1041
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:31,679
thank you the question. Ask the question you screwed up?

1042
00:56:32,199 --> 00:56:35,719
How did I screw up? Because there's only one infallible

1043
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:36,960
way a pope can speak.

1044
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:40,559
Speaker 3: That's not that's not what the question was.

1045
00:56:41,599 --> 00:56:45,119
Speaker 1: The question simply right now, and then he can't say

1046
00:56:45,199 --> 00:56:47,000
he didn't he didn't hear it, or he can't can't

1047
00:56:47,039 --> 00:56:49,440
dodge it, and he'll answer it and then we'll be fine.

1048
00:56:49,559 --> 00:56:49,679
Speaker 2: There.

1049
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,039
Speaker 4: You got to get one teaches that there are two,

1050
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,239
which is two of this three that are protected by

1051
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,320
the petrion kerosm and by infallibility and by the Holy Spirit.

1052
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,159
What one of them is ex cathedral, the other one

1053
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:11,400
is ordinary universal teaching the thing, Council, Stop interrupt freaking council, dude,

1054
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:13,920
you're reading it all right, I'm reading it wrong when

1055
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:14,559
I read.

1056
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,679
Speaker 3: It literally, you're not understanding.

1057
00:57:17,119 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 4: No, you don't know your own documents because this isn't

1058
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:20,360
part of postertornity.

1059
00:57:20,519 --> 00:57:22,679
Speaker 3: This is a different You don't know it. I do

1060
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,039
know it. Okay, let's let's let's switch this up because

1061
00:57:25,039 --> 00:57:25,880
you don't want to do this.

1062
00:57:26,119 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 4: Tell me in the first thing, stop why can you

1063
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:32,440
not answer the questions?

1064
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,119
Speaker 3: You are literally the worst at this, Jay, this is

1065
00:57:35,159 --> 00:57:38,719
really bad, man. You got yourself trying to dig in.

1066
00:57:39,239 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 1: It's a you won't you literally you your father, But

1067
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,719
but ask the ask the question, don't interrupt him, and

1068
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,159
then and then answer simply here we go. Go ahead

1069
00:57:50,159 --> 00:57:52,519
and finish your statement, question whatever you want to call it,

1070
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:53,559
get it, get it out.

1071
00:57:53,599 --> 00:57:54,679
Speaker 2: Don't say anyth until he's done.

1072
00:57:54,719 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: When he said you say, I'm done, when you're done,

1073
00:57:56,599 --> 00:57:58,599
and then he'll come in and he'll he'll he'll respond,

1074
00:57:58,760 --> 00:57:59,840
and don't interrupt him either.

1075
00:58:01,039 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 4: There's three levels. The level first that is and can

1076
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,719
err is ordinary teaching. That's individual bishops, groups of bishops,

1077
00:58:10,719 --> 00:58:13,719
and even the Bishop of Rome. The next level is

1078
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:19,440
the universal ordinary magisterial teaching, defined as in whenever the

1079
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:23,480
college of bishops throughout the world issues a united judgment

1080
00:58:23,559 --> 00:58:27,800
with the Roman Pontiff to be held in faith and morals. Okay,

1081
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,320
this one is protected by the charism of Peter according

1082
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:33,199
to Vatican One.

1083
00:58:34,199 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 3: Which one the one I just read? Oh my gosh,

1084
00:58:39,119 --> 00:58:40,199
do you want me to explain it?

1085
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 4: No, because you don't know what you're talking about?

1086
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: Then question, let's not let's your stupid positions.

1087
00:58:54,639 --> 00:58:55,519
Speaker 3: I promise you're reading.

1088
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 2: I'm reading it.

1089
00:58:57,119 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 3: I'm literally reading the text, his own text, and I'm

1090
00:58:59,519 --> 00:59:01,000
reading it choir's interpretation.

1091
00:59:01,119 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 2: Okay, Hey, let's okay, Ken and his mic for a second.

1092
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:04,920
What do you mean his mike? Two?

1093
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: Here's mike, and then I'm here his mike. When you

1094
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:08,760
answer a right, mute his mike and then we'll talk.

1095
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,079
Speaker 2: We'll go here. Here we go. Go ahead. The MIC's muted.

1096
00:59:12,119 --> 00:59:13,119
You can say whatever its.

1097
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 3: Just deflect him because he doesn't want to go into this,

1098
00:59:15,039 --> 00:59:18,920
because he's the god man.

1099
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,199
Speaker 1: Just just go all right, it's muted, go ahead and

1100
00:59:22,239 --> 00:59:23,760
go ahead. I guess it took a second there.

1101
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,679
Speaker 4: The first was the Ordinary Magisterium that can air the

1102
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,079
ordinary teaching individual bishops groups of bishops.

1103
00:59:30,119 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 3: Bishop of Rome.

1104
00:59:31,079 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 4: The next level is the Universal Ordinary teaching whenever the

1105
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,880
College of Bishops teaches anything in union with the Bishop

1106
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:41,360
of Rome that, according to Vatican One, is literally said

1107
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:46,559
right here to be believed by divine revelation and magisterium

1108
00:59:46,719 --> 00:59:50,639
ordinary universal teaching has to be believed, and thus it

1109
00:59:50,679 --> 00:59:53,400
cannot air. So the only one that could air was

1110
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:58,039
the first one Ordinary teaching. Universal ordinary teaching, accordingy Vatican

1111
00:59:58,079 --> 01:00:02,559
One cannot air because just like the extraordinary or the

1112
01:00:02,679 --> 01:00:05,400
ex cathedral stuff, it is also protected.

1113
01:00:05,559 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 3: Two of these are protected. The one is not.

1114
01:00:08,639 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 4: What I want to know from you is, can you

1115
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,320
give me an example in the first thousand years of

1116
01:00:14,719 --> 01:00:18,480
the Church where there's anything like what's in Unham Sanctam

1117
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:22,639
or what is in uh Dictata's Pope, or all the

1118
01:00:22,639 --> 01:00:25,119
way up into the Syllabus of Errors showing that the

1119
01:00:25,159 --> 01:00:28,880
Bishop of Rome is a geopolitical world power and that.

1120
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 3: You must believe that to be saved.

1121
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 2: All right, Are you done?

1122
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:31,599
Speaker 3: Yes?

1123
01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 4: Because because I'm pointing out a contradiction in their teaching.

1124
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 1: Okay, so now mute mute Jay's mike for a second

1125
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:40,280
if you can, just because we're gonna be fair here,

1126
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:41,400
we do up both sides here.

1127
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 2: Just just get through this question. But the rebuttal.

1128
01:00:45,639 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 3: As me ya ya yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, find of

1129
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:49,239
this muting thing again.

1130
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 1: No, I mean no, I mean if he doesn't want

1131
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:52,159
you to, if he wants to, then yes, but you

1132
01:00:52,159 --> 01:00:53,840
know what, I'm to interrupt you, so I'm just but

1133
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:55,199
I'm gonna try to be fair too. So it's just

1134
01:00:55,239 --> 01:00:57,519
with no interrupting here. We're gonna end it here because

1135
01:00:57,559 --> 01:01:00,360
we're over on the time on this. Go ahead, Jay,

1136
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:01,559
and then just go to him and then we're just

1137
01:01:01,599 --> 01:01:03,119
going to get it a clear.

1138
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 3: Okay, answer the question clearly, uh un, I'm sanctum is

1139
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:12,559
a papal bowl, which is a lower level of magisterium

1140
01:01:12,559 --> 01:01:15,639
than you're thinking it is. And according to it, uh no,

1141
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:19,960
there's not something in the first millennium that's quite like it.

1142
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:23,079
It's not saying everyone must personally recognize the pope or

1143
01:01:23,119 --> 01:01:26,840
they're damned the way you're thinking it is. Instead, it's

1144
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:31,320
asserting that salvation comes from Christ Church, and since the

1145
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,199
Church is visible and hierarchical, submission to the pope is

1146
01:01:34,199 --> 01:01:39,119
the ordinary means of union with Christ's body. Now now

1147
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:45,000
ordinary in because you asked me a question, this is

1148
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:46,880
the physwer.

1149
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:48,239
Speaker 1: Full time he's answering your he's part of your time.

1150
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:52,760
He's just answering you. Real fast answer, not real fast question.

1151
01:01:53,159 --> 01:01:55,079
Speaker 3: You gotta you gotta, you gotta let me answer this

1152
01:01:55,679 --> 01:02:00,000
ordinary ordinary magisterium is there is no one's time. Ordinary

1153
01:02:00,159 --> 01:02:03,360
is the pope. Okay, Ordinary is the pope ordinary, and

1154
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:08,199
universal is all bishops. An ordinary universal is protected. But

1155
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,280
for bishops it's it's that.

1156
01:02:10,199 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 4: It's just that clear, what Jake, All well, I'm not.

1157
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a complex looking charge. All right, it's difficult.

1158
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:26,320
We're going to only one type of teaching that you keep.

1159
01:02:27,719 --> 01:02:31,719
Speaker 1: People can all right, moving along, moving along here to

1160
01:02:31,719 --> 01:02:34,480
to your ability to go ahead and ask him questions

1161
01:02:34,559 --> 01:02:37,280
and go ahead and go there. He obviously don't feel

1162
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,599
like he answered the question. You feel like he is

1163
01:02:39,599 --> 01:02:44,159
skating right, sorry, I mean his mic, Sorry, the boards shorted.

1164
01:02:44,159 --> 01:02:45,519
Speaker 2: That's why it just messes up right now.

1165
01:02:46,079 --> 01:02:50,119
Speaker 4: The last question was about the geopolitical power of the papacy,

1166
01:02:50,159 --> 01:02:53,159
which is not just an unam sanctum as necessary for salvation.

1167
01:02:53,719 --> 01:02:56,119
Its stated all the way up until the Syllabus of errors.

1168
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:58,920
You tried to castigate that, to cast that as a

1169
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,440
discipline that you're saying that it's not there in the

1170
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:04,000
first souveny thousand years, but it was required for salvation.

1171
01:03:04,639 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 3: The temporal power. Now I answered your question. I said no,

1172
01:03:08,039 --> 01:03:09,960
there's nothing. I said no, it was a it was

1173
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:12,239
a yes no question. I said, no, there's nothing quite

1174
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:15,639
like it. But what I followed up with is Boniface

1175
01:03:15,719 --> 01:03:20,000
the eighth language was sharpened by a political fight. And

1176
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:23,039
this it's sharpened by a political situation. You guys in

1177
01:03:23,079 --> 01:03:26,199
the should understand this very well, because the emperors made

1178
01:03:26,239 --> 01:03:29,079
your decisions for most of even the latter.

1179
01:03:29,119 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 4: Like the dramatic popes that were were political dramatic kings.

1180
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:40,199
Speaker 3: Catholic theology recognizes this principle. It recognized the principle apart

1181
01:03:40,239 --> 01:03:44,000
from polemical expression and the principle that it stands for.

1182
01:03:44,079 --> 01:03:46,480
The proposition it stands for is the unity of the

1183
01:03:46,559 --> 01:03:49,800
Church under the successor of Peter. So yes, that's defensive.

1184
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:53,119
Speaker 4: So there was no geopolitical power. It was necessary for

1185
01:03:53,199 --> 01:03:55,639
salvation belief in the first thousand years.

1186
01:03:55,679 --> 01:03:58,599
Speaker 3: Thank you, not dogma. No, No, this is discipline.

1187
01:03:58,679 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 4: It is it's stripped from the disciplin is it faith

1188
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:03,239
in morals, it's rhetorical.

1189
01:04:03,639 --> 01:04:04,519
Speaker 3: It's a lot of rhetoric.

1190
01:04:04,679 --> 01:04:10,079
Speaker 4: It's disciplinary to get around papab a level magisterian.

1191
01:04:10,119 --> 01:04:14,199
Speaker 3: It's all the way up in the errors.

1192
01:04:12,159 --> 01:04:20,079
Speaker 4: What's the Roman sea I'm just explaining your your question

1193
01:04:20,119 --> 01:04:22,360
about I'm saying it's a papabull.

1194
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,119
Speaker 3: You thought it was more important than that. It's for

1195
01:04:25,239 --> 01:04:27,159
salvation for nine hundred years, and now it's not.

1196
01:04:27,239 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 4: And it was necessary for salvation. The doctim says it's

1197
01:04:31,519 --> 01:04:36,760
necessary for salvation. Read that I'm necessary our salvation to

1198
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:40,280
be subject to the Roman Pontiff, not just in spiritual matters.

1199
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,440
The last paragraph of when I'm signed them is about

1200
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:49,000
the temporal supremacy also being necessary to be saved. Okay,

1201
01:04:49,039 --> 01:04:52,480
it is absolutely necessary for salvation for every human being

1202
01:04:52,559 --> 01:04:55,119
to be subject to the Roman Pontiff in both the.

1203
01:04:55,079 --> 01:05:00,719
Speaker 3: Temporal and the spiritual. That's so that refers to confessiontional states.

1204
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,280
The context is confessional states. Did the Holy Roman Empire

1205
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:04,920
still exist?

1206
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 4: Then it says every human being must believe in the

1207
01:05:08,519 --> 01:05:10,840
context state, Okay, where was.

1208
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 3: The temporal supremacy in the first thousand years? It didn't exist, No,

1209
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:17,559
it did exist. Where where was this doctrine in the

1210
01:05:17,559 --> 01:05:19,320
first thou years? I mean, can you name a church

1211
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:20,239
father that teaches it?

1212
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 4: Can you name uh uh? Can you name a church

1213
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:31,119
father that teaches this? I mean no, because it doesn't exist. Well,

1214
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,199
so this is a development of the power.

1215
01:05:34,159 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 3: Exactly its development. Now it's developed a way because do

1216
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,599
we have to believe it? Believe it? The way it

1217
01:05:40,679 --> 01:05:41,280
developed was.

1218
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:45,039
Speaker 4: So anything that is a dogmatic contradition suddenly now disciplinary.

1219
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 3: Yes, So that's exactly. Thank you. Well did you to

1220
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:55,000
show Jay where was Christ didn't establish the contivity?

1221
01:05:55,119 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 4: So run off to something else. No, run run off

1222
01:05:57,320 --> 01:05:59,360
to the prompt of the debate. But you haven't addressed

1223
01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:01,920
all I had this was that there's one contradiction. No,

1224
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:07,119
you don't because Christ established patrain ministry. Christ established a

1225
01:06:07,159 --> 01:06:10,679
petrine ministry. I've shown it does I exited it. I

1226
01:06:10,719 --> 01:06:13,800
showed it. There are there are developments in the pontificate.

1227
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 3: Over the years.

1228
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 4: The Petrie ministry was supposed to in the first seven

1229
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:19,440
country geopolitical world, in the first seven country political world.

1230
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,760
Power there there are where's that good popes, bad popes?

1231
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:25,320
There media where in the first thousand years is a

1232
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:28,400
geopolitical world? That is what we call it disciplinary distinction.

1233
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:31,599
And the Church has said it multiple is it disciplinary

1234
01:06:31,679 --> 01:06:33,880
if it's necessary for salvation for nine hundred.

1235
01:06:33,679 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 3: Years, it's disciplinary in so far as the modern church,

1236
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:38,840
as you said yourself, doesn't even hold that this doctrine

1237
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:39,280
is true.

1238
01:06:40,079 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 4: When there's a contradiction, it's suddenly disciplinary and it can

1239
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:43,880
go away.

1240
01:06:44,079 --> 01:06:44,400
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1241
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:46,719
Speaker 1: We are all right, all right, all right, We're gonna

1242
01:06:46,719 --> 01:06:50,199
move on from there. I'm gonna give your time. Theoretically

1243
01:06:50,199 --> 01:06:52,639
you would have unlimited time after after the length of

1244
01:06:52,639 --> 01:06:56,599
that situation. But but also to be fair, I'm gonna

1245
01:06:56,599 --> 01:06:58,079
give you five minutes. But if you guys want to go,

1246
01:06:58,239 --> 01:06:59,920
you know, you guys want to still still ham my

1247
01:07:00,079 --> 01:07:01,199
the point. If you don't think it is, I'll give

1248
01:07:01,199 --> 01:07:03,159
you the ability to hammer it out as well. Since

1249
01:07:03,239 --> 01:07:06,320
since since Jay got that from the chat, I'd have

1250
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,440
no idea who won that, because the chats it's like

1251
01:07:10,159 --> 01:07:13,639
we were someone who was saying Tucker won, you know

1252
01:07:13,639 --> 01:07:15,800
what I mean, like just throwing in chat, just throwing

1253
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:18,360
and ideas in there. Uh. But you guys need to

1254
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:21,400
be very very dogmatic on who you support. I'd like

1255
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:23,280
to know once and for all before we go on

1256
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,199
to this rebuttal that rebuttal, do you believe ones in

1257
01:07:26,239 --> 01:07:28,960
the chats that Jay one two's in the chats that

1258
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:33,519
Timothy won. Let's go ones ones for Jay twos for Timothy.

1259
01:07:33,719 --> 01:07:35,119
I just want to see a little bit what's going

1260
01:07:35,159 --> 01:07:37,920
on there and what's happening. Sometimes I can tell about

1261
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:39,639
your names as well, what's going on.

1262
01:07:40,119 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 2: All right, as we go.

1263
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:43,480
Speaker 1: Into there, I'm gonna give your time on the clock.

1264
01:07:43,559 --> 01:07:45,960
Theoretically you have five minutes. Again, if for some reason

1265
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:48,079
there's a contention and a challenge, I'll give you that

1266
01:07:48,119 --> 01:07:49,920
way more than five minutes. Well, I said the middle

1267
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:51,599
ground was nobody's. I was like, because it was just

1268
01:07:51,639 --> 01:07:54,320
a separate issue as were. If we weren't gonna mute,

1269
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:56,199
if we're gonna mute, then it would have been his minutes.

1270
01:07:56,239 --> 01:07:58,159
But since we unmuted both, it's like, okay, then we'll

1271
01:07:58,199 --> 01:07:58,760
just go at it.

1272
01:07:58,719 --> 01:08:00,320
Speaker 3: And you guys cross that right.

1273
01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, go ahead. This is a theoretically five minutes.

1274
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:04,519
Speaker 1: But if for some reason you can't get done in time,

1275
01:08:04,559 --> 01:08:05,800
then you know we'll get it done.

1276
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:06,119
Speaker 4: Here.

1277
01:08:06,159 --> 01:08:07,079
Speaker 2: We go go ahead and begin.

1278
01:08:07,159 --> 01:08:09,039
Speaker 3: You can start your questioning, all right, we'll go to

1279
01:08:09,079 --> 01:08:13,000
the three Papal scriptures. In Matthew sixteen to nine, Jesus

1280
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:17,840
gives the Peter the keys alone to the kingdom. Do

1281
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:20,159
you know the typological reference of the keys in the

1282
01:08:20,159 --> 01:08:23,920
Old Testament? You know what there of Isaiah and what

1283
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:27,640
mean the householder? I'm aware of all that. What do

1284
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:31,560
they mean though, specifically to which king the steward, to

1285
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,000
David the king. So yeah, this is well, this is

1286
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:40,239
a typological reference the house of David. I'm aware of that. Yeah. Okay,

1287
01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:43,079
so the keys of the House of David. You think this?

1288
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:47,000
Does he give these keys to all of the apostles? Yes?

1289
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:49,399
How does he give all these keys to the apostles?

1290
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:51,520
He gives them to Jesus, to Peter alone.

1291
01:08:52,159 --> 01:08:54,960
Speaker 4: Well, in two chapters later he says exact same, Dame,

1292
01:08:55,039 --> 01:08:55,840
to the whole college.

1293
01:08:56,760 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 3: He gives the keys of the kingdom to the whole

1294
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:04,880
college of cardinals, to the whole college of Apostles. Yeah,

1295
01:09:05,039 --> 01:09:06,199
can you read that for me? Yeah.

1296
01:09:06,239 --> 01:09:09,159
Speaker 4: Matthew eighteen says that the binding and the loosing, which

1297
01:09:09,199 --> 01:09:11,359
is what the key is signify, is literally said to

1298
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:12,079
the entire college.

1299
01:09:12,079 --> 01:09:16,680
Speaker 3: Two chapters later. Yeah, no, no, I did know that. Oh,

1300
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:19,479
but binding and loosing is given as the operation of

1301
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:24,039
the key. The Third Ecumenical Council and the Sixth Ecumenical Council.

1302
01:09:24,079 --> 01:09:29,960
It's affirmed as given to Peter alone primacial authority everywhere

1303
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:34,279
on Earth. Sorry, this is the Seventh Ecumenical Council. Primacial

1304
01:09:34,279 --> 01:09:37,159
authority everywhere on Earth was given by the Redeemer of

1305
01:09:37,199 --> 01:09:40,520
the world to the Blessed Apostle Peter. Through the same Apostle,

1306
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:43,039
the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church has till now

1307
01:09:43,079 --> 01:09:45,640
and will hold for all time primacy and sovereign authority.

1308
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:48,279
Are you How does that square with your interpretation right?

1309
01:09:48,319 --> 01:09:51,600
Speaker 4: Because that language is also used Matthew sixteen is applied

1310
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:53,880
in the Seventh Ecumenical Council to the Emperor.

1311
01:09:55,279 --> 01:10:00,199
Speaker 3: Now, the Emperor doesn't have the binding and loosing can

1312
01:10:00,199 --> 01:10:00,720
forgive sin.

1313
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 4: No, I'm saying the Council also uses that terminology for

1314
01:10:04,039 --> 01:10:04,439
the Emperor.

1315
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 3: So it doesn't prove what you think it proved. It

1316
01:10:06,199 --> 01:10:06,960
does prove what I think.

1317
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:10,600
Speaker 4: It proves everywhere on earth the Emperor can can confess

1318
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:13,159
sins can be You don't understand that I'm saying. I

1319
01:10:13,239 --> 01:10:15,680
don't believe that I'm saying what the Council also says.

1320
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:17,560
Speaker 3: The Council crimacial authority.

1321
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:20,359
Speaker 4: It says that the keys and Matthew sixteen also applies

1322
01:10:20,399 --> 01:10:21,840
to the Emperor, which I don't believe.

1323
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:24,520
Speaker 3: But the council also says that where does it say

1324
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,079
that it's brought up in the Ubi Borro debate?

1325
01:10:28,199 --> 01:10:28,279
Speaker 2: No?

1326
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:30,239
Speaker 4: I mean, but where does it say that in the count?

1327
01:10:30,359 --> 01:10:32,439
Can you read me something? I don't have the documents

1328
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:33,720
with me. No, but you can look it up.

1329
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:37,640
Speaker 3: So you think that I just want your best estimate.

1330
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:41,479
You think primacial authority everywhere on earth? Because we're talking

1331
01:10:41,479 --> 01:10:44,239
about the the areare the passage? Hold on? I know

1332
01:10:44,279 --> 01:10:46,760
what that says. We're talking about the passage that I

1333
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:49,760
brought up, the three the three passages, particularly the keys

1334
01:10:50,119 --> 01:10:52,079
everyone on earth given by the Redeemer of the world

1335
01:10:52,319 --> 01:10:55,960
to the Blessed Apostle Peter through the same Apostle, the

1336
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:59,279
Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church. How about that it doesn't

1337
01:10:59,319 --> 01:11:01,880
give it to to the Empire the way it would

1338
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:05,079
be the analogatet for the Emperor. It's only given to

1339
01:11:05,079 --> 01:11:07,760
the Roman Church hold now and for all time through

1340
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:10,920
privacy and sovereign authority. How how does that square with

1341
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:11,680
your interpretation?

1342
01:11:12,119 --> 01:11:15,479
Speaker 4: Because, like I said, the keys is used at times

1343
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:16,840
in that flowery.

1344
01:11:16,439 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 3: Language to say the flowery language. It is.

1345
01:11:19,319 --> 01:11:21,640
Speaker 4: I mean, the entire debate between Ubi and Obarrow is

1346
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:23,439
about primacial authority.

1347
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:26,840
Speaker 3: Everywhere on earth is flowery. Yeah, it is primacial authority.

1348
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:27,760
It's specific.

1349
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:29,880
Speaker 4: You have you heard the term i've trained attorney. This

1350
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:33,079
is how we describe the tachnology that's used in the

1351
01:11:33,079 --> 01:11:37,239
ecumenical councils for the patriarchal constantinoples. Similar how about Council

1352
01:11:37,279 --> 01:11:41,279
of Calcidon. Peter has spoken through Leo. Are you aware

1353
01:11:41,359 --> 01:11:44,359
that they examined the tone against Cyril?

1354
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:44,720
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1355
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,760
Speaker 4: Of course, Oh so Cyril was a center. No, so

1356
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:52,000
Peter spoke through Cyril finacial authority. Well you're retroact, But

1357
01:11:52,039 --> 01:11:55,840
did you have authoritatively saying that you didn't? You're retroactively

1358
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:57,359
reading the seventh back to the fourth.

1359
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:00,600
Speaker 3: How how about this is this flowery language from ephesis?

1360
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:03,720
The third council is head, the head of the whole faith,

1361
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:07,920
the head of the apostles, blessed Peter. It's it's in

1362
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:11,199
the octa. Are you sure?

1363
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:12,920
Speaker 2: Oh?

1364
01:12:13,119 --> 01:12:15,600
Speaker 3: I think it's in the octa. I mean, I could

1365
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:17,359
I could check it. Do you think that every state?

1366
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 4: I think it's you think that every state from a

1367
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:23,279
legate is dogmatic, because of course it has to be

1368
01:12:23,319 --> 01:12:27,359
in wait, I said, it's in the octa. The Pope's

1369
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:30,399
legates say something, and you think that that's now the

1370
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:32,399
head of the whole faith, The head of the apostles

1371
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:34,520
is Blessed Peter. So what excuse is it?

1372
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:37,119
Speaker 3: Is it that? But none of that proves Vatican won.

1373
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:41,159
I wasn't trying to prove Vatican one cross.

1374
01:12:41,359 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 4: I was trying to prove that Jesus Instituteodox don't disagree with.

1375
01:12:46,399 --> 01:12:49,960
Speaker 3: That Jesus institute of the papacy, and you don't disagree.

1376
01:12:50,079 --> 01:12:52,119
What does it mean at your own counsel? Doesn't mean?

1377
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:54,239
What does it mean at your own council at eight

1378
01:12:54,359 --> 01:12:59,079
seventy Constantinople four, in your own council that the chief

1379
01:12:59,119 --> 01:13:02,279
of the apostles or has the authority of universal binding

1380
01:13:02,319 --> 01:13:04,000
and loosing? Just explain that to.

1381
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:06,359
Speaker 4: Me the same way that your documents of that of

1382
01:13:06,399 --> 01:13:13,359
the Vatican explain it. I vers does your Vatican documents

1383
01:13:13,399 --> 01:13:13,960
explain it?

1384
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:18,079
Speaker 3: Can you? Can you unpack what that means? So it

1385
01:13:18,119 --> 01:13:18,560
sounds like.

1386
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:21,359
Speaker 4: Your appeals are made to the Bishop of Rome, but

1387
01:13:21,399 --> 01:13:22,800
they're also made to other bishops.

1388
01:13:23,239 --> 01:13:26,560
Speaker 3: And as Cyprian says, all bishops are Peter, but the

1389
01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:28,359
power of universal binding and loosing.

1390
01:13:29,159 --> 01:13:33,399
Speaker 4: But that same flower language is also used of other patriarchates.

1391
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:37,359
Speaker 3: In flowery language, this is a pelt language. This is

1392
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:40,119
literally the language apellate.

1393
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 4: Jurisdiction argument according to the Chiady DOCTORSCU mean the Alexandria document,

1394
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:45,000
the Ciady documents.

1395
01:13:45,159 --> 01:13:46,119
Speaker 3: Who's my position?

1396
01:13:46,199 --> 01:13:50,359
Speaker 4: Because appleate jurisdictions allow for retrials in the local jurisdictions,

1397
01:13:50,399 --> 01:13:51,119
it proves.

1398
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:56,680
Speaker 3: Your position that he has an honorary uh, non jurisdictional power.

1399
01:13:56,760 --> 01:13:58,920
No are you? Are you aware what Peter in Rome?

1400
01:13:59,039 --> 01:14:03,279
Speaker 4: No Sartica allows noble to say, the chief of the apostles,

1401
01:14:03,279 --> 01:14:05,960
Peter has the authority of universal binding and loosing.

1402
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:09,119
Speaker 3: That is that's also no, you're not listening to what

1403
01:14:09,159 --> 01:14:09,600
I'm saying.

1404
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:13,279
Speaker 4: That terminology in that phraseology is also used of the emperor,

1405
01:14:13,319 --> 01:14:16,479
and it's also used of other patriarchates and bishops to

1406
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:18,800
do the same types of things.

1407
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:20,359
Speaker 3: Okay. In John, that's insane.

1408
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:24,359
Speaker 4: In John twenty one, Jesus tells Peter three times, feed

1409
01:14:24,399 --> 01:14:28,319
my sheep. He repeats it, give an orthodox in term,

1410
01:14:28,399 --> 01:14:31,920
Why would Christ trust entrust the universal flock to one man?

1411
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:34,119
Speaker 3: If his role was just honorific. It's not.

1412
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:37,520
Speaker 4: What do you mean, It's not you're just assuming that

1413
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:40,199
those passages teach Vatican one and the universal jurisdiction.

1414
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:43,680
Speaker 3: Talking about Vatican Vatican one wouldn't happen for eighteen hundred years.

1415
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:46,560
You're obsessed with it. I'm asking, literally, because that's not

1416
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:49,000
what's increasing Vatican want it happened at the time of

1417
01:14:49,079 --> 01:14:52,960
John twenty one. Obviously not Jesus tells Peter three times.

1418
01:14:53,199 --> 01:14:56,960
He tells Peter three times back in whatever the year

1419
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:00,399
thirty three, because my sheep, why would he? But I'm

1420
01:15:00,399 --> 01:15:02,439
just asking why would he entrust the universal?

1421
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:03,039
Speaker 2: He didn't.

1422
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:07,920
Speaker 4: That's just your assumption that the scripture. Where does this

1423
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:09,880
say the entire universal flock?

1424
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:13,640
Speaker 3: Is there? The whole flock, not just the local church,

1425
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:16,199
because he's not referring to the local true, that's why

1426
01:15:16,199 --> 01:15:18,159
he says it. Why does he say it three times?

1427
01:15:18,239 --> 01:15:23,920
Jay den him three times? Duh? But okay, bring up one?

1428
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:27,920
So why why what is the authority of Peter denying

1429
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:30,600
him three times and this being undone three times? The

1430
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:34,039
authority of it? I don't know what that means. So

1431
01:15:34,359 --> 01:15:40,520
you you think that price is not interesting? The universal flock.

1432
01:15:40,319 --> 01:15:45,039
Speaker 4: To Timothy was Timothy was Timothy was in Ephesus.

1433
01:15:45,159 --> 01:15:48,760
Speaker 3: Peter isn't over that right, And and the authority of

1434
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:52,159
universal binding and loosing is just flowery. Jesus gives the

1435
01:15:52,199 --> 01:15:54,720
keys too, and that's just flowers.

1436
01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:56,720
Speaker 4: I should have watched the U be a Borrow debate

1437
01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:58,520
because they talked about all the flowery language.

1438
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:02,119
Speaker 3: I've seen it, uh, And it's it's absurd to just

1439
01:16:02,199 --> 01:16:05,319
say anytime you don't like that a power is given,

1440
01:16:05,399 --> 01:16:07,880
you say language. No, it's not I see it too.

1441
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:10,520
Primation authorities everywhere on Earth, that's flowery.

1442
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 4: That's because you try to try to very trying to

1443
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:15,960
cite legs dogmatic.

1444
01:16:16,039 --> 01:16:22,680
Speaker 3: No, this is nice. The councils of this earlier. Why

1445
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:26,159
would Pope Hadrian be read and stuck into the see

1446
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:29,720
saying that primatial authority everyone on earth has been given by?

1447
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:32,800
Does this strike anyone else? Can I answer? Flower? Can

1448
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:33,600
I answer this question?

1449
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:35,600
Speaker 2: Some people in the chat were saying Jay likes flowers.

1450
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:37,600
That's what that's what that's what they're saying the chat.

1451
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:38,680
I don't. I'm not gonna have an opinion.

1452
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:40,520
Speaker 1: I take other side of Can I answer, Yeah, you

1453
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:42,760
can answer, then we should probably probably cut that off

1454
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:44,279
and go to the conclusion right now.

1455
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:49,199
Speaker 4: Uh So, I'm not trying to say that every statement

1456
01:16:49,279 --> 01:16:52,399
is flowery language. I was specifically talking about some of

1457
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:55,439
the statements. Let me give an example where Basil says,

1458
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:58,279
when he's talking about the Malician schism, he says that

1459
01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:01,720
the church in Antioch is the head of the entire body,

1460
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:04,960
and the whole body listens to the head. Nobody believes

1461
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:07,720
that the Bishop of Antioch is the head of the

1462
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:11,119
entire universal Church. It's one example of the flowery language

1463
01:17:11,159 --> 01:17:12,800
which came up multiple times in the.

1464
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 3: Debate between Ubi and Obara and other debates.

1465
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:18,439
Speaker 4: So all I'm saying is that the case in Matthew

1466
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:21,359
of Matthew sixteen and the Sun of the Commentical Council

1467
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:24,680
doesn't go very far because it also applies to the

1468
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:27,239
Emperor in the acts of that Council, which I don't accept.

1469
01:17:27,239 --> 01:17:29,399
I'm just saying that they use that terminology and they

1470
01:17:29,399 --> 01:17:30,720
cite that text for the emperor.

1471
01:17:31,119 --> 01:17:33,239
Speaker 3: What I'm also saying is that do they cite it

1472
01:17:33,279 --> 01:17:35,119
in the same way though. Do they cite it in

1473
01:17:35,119 --> 01:17:37,880
the same way where the same primatial authority or he's

1474
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:39,239
a confessor of what.

1475
01:17:39,119 --> 01:17:41,359
Speaker 4: They say is that the gates of Hell will not

1476
01:17:41,399 --> 01:17:45,079
prevail against the empire nor the emperor, of course, citing Matthew,

1477
01:17:45,279 --> 01:17:48,199
but nobody believes that because the empire fell right. But

1478
01:17:48,239 --> 01:17:51,239
I'm just saying that Matthew sixteen in the councils can

1479
01:17:51,279 --> 01:17:55,479
be used and it doesn't necessarily prove the Vatican one position,

1480
01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:56,800
which is what you have to prove.

1481
01:17:56,880 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 3: I'm not talking about Vatican one. I'm talking about but

1482
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:01,199
that's what you hold the entire It was like a

1483
01:18:01,199 --> 01:18:04,239
three line specific quote and you're saying, well, they said

1484
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:08,760
the later Pope Hadrian thing, can I address up? Yeah, okay,

1485
01:18:09,039 --> 01:18:11,239
So I do agree with you that.

1486
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:14,840
Speaker 4: Over time, and if you read Sashinsky's book on Orthodoxy

1487
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:17,560
and the Papacy, he discusses this. By the time of

1488
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:19,960
Pope Saint Gregory the Great, he admits and agrees to

1489
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:23,239
the pentarchy. At the same time as pentarchy is accepted

1490
01:18:23,239 --> 01:18:27,680
by Rome, Rome is also making more and more grandiose

1491
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:31,479
and grandeur related statements and claims. I agree with you

1492
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:34,239
that those claims are there, and they're being made, but

1493
01:18:34,399 --> 01:18:37,159
from an Orthodox perspective. Just because the pope at a

1494
01:18:37,239 --> 01:18:41,680
council says that we don't necessarily think that it's true

1495
01:18:41,720 --> 01:18:44,239
because the pope said, and it's in the council, right.

1496
01:18:44,520 --> 01:18:46,760
It could be the acts, it could be flowery language.

1497
01:18:47,079 --> 01:18:49,319
And we don't accept everything that a pope says, of course,

1498
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:50,239
even at a council.

1499
01:18:50,279 --> 01:18:55,199
Speaker 3: So the real issue epistemologically is how do you say

1500
01:18:55,239 --> 01:18:58,840
that this is not a flowery sorry, circular reasoning. In

1501
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:01,760
other words, what I kept repeating in my opening, the

1502
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,800
councils are ecumenical when we accept them, and only the

1503
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:08,319
accepted councils are ecumenical. That's why you guys have fourteen churches.

1504
01:19:08,319 --> 01:19:10,439
That's why you can't meet the first mark of the church.

1505
01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:14,479
Let me, you have three patriarchs in church, all right,

1506
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:16,960
for the sake of that, you can't meet the one.

1507
01:19:17,159 --> 01:19:20,000
There's one head. There's one visible sign of unity.

1508
01:19:20,079 --> 01:19:23,079
Speaker 2: That was God telling us to the closing, all right.

1509
01:19:23,119 --> 01:19:26,039
Speaker 1: So in conclusion on that, let's end with the conclusion

1510
01:19:26,119 --> 01:19:29,239
both to look, I'm gonna we're gona're gonna cut down

1511
01:19:29,239 --> 01:19:31,560
the five minute conclusions. It's almost midnight and there's there's

1512
01:19:31,560 --> 01:19:34,399
a kid here, so it's like gotta go to bed.

1513
01:19:35,239 --> 01:19:37,399
But so so we'll cut out of five minutes and

1514
01:19:37,439 --> 01:19:39,760
then I'll go through some super chats. We went through

1515
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:41,800
most of the superchats though that were out there, if

1516
01:19:41,840 --> 01:19:43,119
you if you I did. I read some of the

1517
01:19:43,119 --> 01:19:44,840
two dollars one dollar super chats, but I was mostly

1518
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:47,880
keeping it the five, ten, and twenty dollars up super chats.

1519
01:19:48,159 --> 01:19:50,680
And I thank you everyone who gave the super chats.

1520
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:53,640
Speaker 2: That was really appreciative of you that were there.

1521
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:56,000
Speaker 1: And we'll try to uh make sure that we get

1522
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:59,119
to them somehow because there was just just too many.

1523
01:19:59,119 --> 01:20:00,520
Speaker 2: But I really appre should.

1524
01:20:00,319 --> 01:20:02,760
Speaker 1: Don't forget subscribe to this channel if you don't, we

1525
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:06,159
are live Monday, Wednesday Friday at seven pm Eastern time

1526
01:20:06,239 --> 01:20:08,359
right now. We have special shows on Tuesdays and Thursdays

1527
01:20:08,399 --> 01:20:10,079
as well that are live with the pre record of

1528
01:20:10,079 --> 01:20:14,039
rebens of new shows start on the channel, including Joel Webbin,

1529
01:20:14,119 --> 01:20:16,520
who's been working with these two guys as well, doing

1530
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:19,760
a theological show trying to bring Catholics, Prots and Orthodox

1531
01:20:19,800 --> 01:20:22,319
together to fight what's going on in this world, together

1532
01:20:22,359 --> 01:20:24,840
to be masculine and take back our countries, lead our

1533
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:26,479
families and repopulate this world.

1534
01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:29,560
Speaker 2: Am I right? That's a good idea. Plus.

1535
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:32,479
Speaker 1: You can also join local support this show directly if

1536
01:20:32,479 --> 01:20:34,159
you want to, because every time on that we do

1537
01:20:34,199 --> 01:20:36,479
this show live, we end up having live segments if

1538
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:38,359
it's a special show song as we don't kind of

1539
01:20:38,399 --> 01:20:40,800
put it all out there at Elijah Shaeffer dot locals

1540
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:43,159
dot com. You can follow us on Rumble YouTube wherever

1541
01:20:43,239 --> 01:20:45,760
you want to. But I greatly appreciate your support. And

1542
01:20:46,159 --> 01:20:48,239
let's go into this. We'll go ahead and we'll start.

1543
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:50,399
Speaker 2: With Jay.

1544
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:52,760
Speaker 1: Let me put some time on the clock here. I'm

1545
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:54,159
going to go a little shorter and we're going to

1546
01:20:54,199 --> 01:20:56,760
try to stick to it. Please to summarize it due

1547
01:20:56,800 --> 01:20:59,960
to the simplicity of that, I'm gonna give you six minutes,

1548
01:21:00,159 --> 01:21:03,800
so ten, let me reset the clock if you're ready

1549
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:06,840
to go. This is the conclusion both of this segment

1550
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:08,000
and of the show.

1551
01:21:08,159 --> 01:21:09,399
Speaker 2: Yep, you have the clock.

1552
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:10,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1553
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:13,199
Speaker 4: So I'd like to address a couple of things that

1554
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:15,359
did come up here. There's a really good book, by

1555
01:21:15,359 --> 01:21:16,920
the way, because a lot of these comments, a lot

1556
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:19,239
of these quotes need to be addressed in terms of

1557
01:21:19,239 --> 01:21:22,279
the context and then more more sort of spaced out.

1558
01:21:22,319 --> 01:21:25,159
There's a great book called Papacy in the Orthodox by

1559
01:21:25,279 --> 01:21:28,439
Edwards Sarshchensky. He's the same person that was a Unia

1560
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:31,319
and became Orthodox. He wrote the book on the Philioqua,

1561
01:21:31,359 --> 01:21:33,640
and he also wrote this excellent book on the history

1562
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:36,479
of these disputes, and he actually begins with the patristic

1563
01:21:36,479 --> 01:21:39,079
era or assuming of the post Apostolic apeer with Clement

1564
01:21:39,159 --> 01:21:42,319
and Ignatius, and talks about how, for example, for the

1565
01:21:42,359 --> 01:21:45,079
last sixty plus years, even the Roman Catholic Church no

1566
01:21:45,159 --> 01:21:49,359
longer utilizes things like Clement because they don't actually demonstrate

1567
01:21:49,479 --> 01:21:53,399
what the claims of Vatican one claim.

1568
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:54,880
Speaker 3: The claims of Vatican One.

1569
01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:57,359
Speaker 4: For example, we've read Satist kongn Needum, which is a

1570
01:21:57,800 --> 01:22:01,560
legal the thirteenth description and define of what is supposed

1571
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:04,960
to be understood in terms of people supremacy. Satist Cognitium

1572
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:08,319
says that it has always, at all times been understood

1573
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:12,479
that the Roman See had the claims that Vatican One

1574
01:22:12,479 --> 01:22:13,039
has about it.

1575
01:22:13,079 --> 01:22:13,479
Speaker 5: So, in other.

1576
01:22:13,399 --> 01:22:17,720
Speaker 4: Words, there's no development of doctrine. According to Satist Cognitum,

1577
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:23,439
it is clearly that the Roman Sea was indefectible, infallible,

1578
01:22:23,439 --> 01:22:27,920
and had universal jurisdiction. Now he likes to say that, well,

1579
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:31,520
I don't have to accept these statements from the Chiady

1580
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:35,560
document because well, it's just not infallible. Of course, there

1581
01:22:35,600 --> 01:22:39,399
is no epistemic criteria for the Roman Catholic for what

1582
01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:43,039
is actually infallible, because Tim knows that it's more than

1583
01:22:43,159 --> 01:22:45,880
just a few exec theater statements. You also have to

1584
01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:51,000
believe all the dogmatic teachings in the ordinary universal Magisterium.

1585
01:22:51,359 --> 01:22:54,039
And in fact, there's a whole list of I'll give

1586
01:22:54,079 --> 01:22:56,640
you the guys the list of these.

1587
01:22:57,399 --> 01:22:59,039
Speaker 3: You can look them up yourselves, so we don't have

1588
01:22:59,079 --> 01:22:59,760
time to go through him.

1589
01:23:00,039 --> 01:23:03,239
Speaker 4: Zinger sixteen eighty three, Dinzinger sixteen ninety eight, Denzinger seventeen

1590
01:23:03,319 --> 01:23:06,720
ninety two, Castid KNUBII one O four all say that

1591
01:23:07,239 --> 01:23:10,840
position is condemned. If you say you only follow the

1592
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:14,760
ex cathedral magisterial statements, that is a condemned proposition. And

1593
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:16,640
it's funny because you actually heard him seem to be

1594
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:18,920
arguing that tonight now in regard.

1595
01:23:18,680 --> 01:23:22,319
Speaker 1: To just let me let him let him conclude, please please, sorry, sorry,

1596
01:23:22,359 --> 01:23:24,680
please four hours.

1597
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:28,560
Speaker 4: Because because universal ordinary magisterial teaching would be much broader

1598
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:30,720
and would bind him and everyone else to a whole

1599
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:33,119
bunch other of other things. And that's precisely what the

1600
01:23:33,159 --> 01:23:36,119
point of Atican one was to say, now, all I

1601
01:23:36,159 --> 01:23:39,520
needed was one dogmatic contradiction, which I think we saw

1602
01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:43,800
with the geopolitical power claims that were necessary for salvation

1603
01:23:44,319 --> 01:23:45,479
for nine hundred years.

1604
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:47,239
Speaker 3: He said, oh, it's just a discipline.

1605
01:23:47,319 --> 01:23:51,039
Speaker 4: That's his way to get around this doctrinal contradiction. But again,

1606
01:23:51,079 --> 01:23:53,720
I will go back to the famous instance that Ubi

1607
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:56,239
brought up to Ibarro, which Aborro didn't have an answer to,

1608
01:23:56,319 --> 01:24:00,600
in which I will reassert again from the papacy in

1609
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:06,119
the Orthodox Pope Vigilius submitted to the Ecumenical Council because

1610
01:24:06,119 --> 01:24:09,960
he was threatened with excommunication and removal from the Diptychs,

1611
01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:12,760
and that's where he landed. That's where he ended up.

1612
01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:16,039
That's why Virgilius is such a strong argument against the

1613
01:24:16,159 --> 01:24:21,079
claim that Jesus instituted this universal supremacy that was from

1614
01:24:21,159 --> 01:24:25,039
all times, at all times, everywhere, infallible and defectible from

1615
01:24:25,159 --> 01:24:26,199
the earliest days.

1616
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:27,880
Speaker 3: That's what he has to prove.

1617
01:24:28,319 --> 01:24:31,960
Speaker 4: That's why he was deflecting into these passages that don't

1618
01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:36,720
actually prove that. They prove merely that there's those passages

1619
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:38,840
which can be read in an Orthodox sense or in

1620
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:41,720
a Roman Catholic sense. He has a system that he

1621
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:43,920
has to defend. He tried to say that it's all

1622
01:24:44,039 --> 01:24:47,079
coherence theory, or so I don't hold to secular coherence theory.

1623
01:24:47,119 --> 01:24:50,520
So he doesn't know what he's talking about. The position

1624
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:54,520
only requires one contradiction for the whole thing to fall apart.

1625
01:24:54,760 --> 01:24:57,399
And you can read the most recent Richard Price text

1626
01:24:57,560 --> 01:25:01,880
on the case of Virgilius. And when Richard Price was

1627
01:25:01,880 --> 01:25:04,720
on Reason in Theology and they interviewed him a few

1628
01:25:04,760 --> 01:25:07,880
years ago, and he said that the pope did not

1629
01:25:08,079 --> 01:25:11,880
have universal jurisdiction in the first millennium, just like the

1630
01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:14,800
Chieti document says the pope did not have universal jurisdiction

1631
01:25:14,840 --> 01:25:17,880
in the first millennium. That means Vatican One is false.

1632
01:25:18,319 --> 01:25:23,119
And that's why Vigilius disproves the papacy. And there's many more. Honorius,

1633
01:25:23,600 --> 01:25:27,000
what two minutes were done? Okay, there's many more. There's

1634
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:29,960
also the case of Honorius. Honorius is not just condemned

1635
01:25:30,039 --> 01:25:35,000
because he supposedly fibbed or failed to condemnse it's actually

1636
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:37,479
because he wrote a letter to a bishop. So notice

1637
01:25:37,640 --> 01:25:40,199
the status of the text. It wasn't ex cathedral, it

1638
01:25:40,279 --> 01:25:42,000
wasn't a magisterium. It is a letter to a bishop

1639
01:25:42,039 --> 01:25:45,600
where he affirmed monothelitism, and he was successively condemned by

1640
01:25:45,760 --> 01:25:48,920
in the East three councils, including the Seventh Ecumenical Council.

1641
01:25:49,199 --> 01:25:53,600
So Honorius becomes a heretic explicitly. Most Roman Catholics, except

1642
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:55,880
for a few, will admit this now today. But that

1643
01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:59,680
means that the pope isn't indefectible. And yet Vatican one

1644
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:03,000
claimed that the ce of Peter is indeffectible. It is

1645
01:26:03,119 --> 01:26:05,960
never failing in its truth and in its faith. And

1646
01:26:06,039 --> 01:26:08,680
yet tonight we've seen, in just a handful of examples,

1647
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:12,239
and I can give many many more, that it is

1648
01:26:12,279 --> 01:26:14,760
in fact failing. And that's why we don't put our

1649
01:26:14,800 --> 01:26:18,199
hope in a geopolitical world ruler which now calls for

1650
01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:21,039
open borders and all of that. Who used to say

1651
01:26:21,039 --> 01:26:22,880
you had to believe in his que's outside of rock

1652
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:24,880
a list on all gie powers to be saved. Now

1653
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:25,960
you don't have to believe it's.

1654
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:26,960
Speaker 3: Just a discipline. Handwave it.

1655
01:26:27,399 --> 01:26:30,800
Speaker 4: No, no, no, The papacy is a geopolitical tool. And if

1656
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:32,279
you go to my channel and watch all of my

1657
01:26:32,359 --> 01:26:34,840
old videos, you can find the lectures where I've walked

1658
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:38,600
through David Wimhoff's excellent book showing that the CIA also

1659
01:26:39,119 --> 01:26:42,119
bought into and helped to buy out the papacy.

1660
01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:42,920
Speaker 3: Through Operation Gladio.

1661
01:26:43,119 --> 01:26:45,960
Speaker 4: There's multiple texts from multiple Roman Catholics even on that.

1662
01:26:46,279 --> 01:26:48,119
So what are we looking at with the papacy? Is

1663
01:26:48,159 --> 01:26:50,640
it really a center of unity? Or is it a

1664
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:55,880
tool of inclusive capitalism, socialism, war, economic forum, all the

1665
01:26:55,920 --> 01:27:00,640
stuff that you see bat Canto promoting with the internationalism, a.

1666
01:27:00,439 --> 01:27:01,720
Speaker 3: New world order, et cetera.

1667
01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:05,119
Speaker 4: Explicitly in the Church and the modern world texts. That's

1668
01:27:05,159 --> 01:27:08,239
what the papacy actually is. The papacy is not your friend.

1669
01:27:08,479 --> 01:27:11,520
It is a spiritual cancer, and it does not produce

1670
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:15,840
the thing that it claims to produce, unity, holiness and truth.

1671
01:27:16,159 --> 01:27:18,279
Speaker 2: All Right, That was ladies and gentlemen.

1672
01:27:19,520 --> 01:27:24,239
Speaker 1: Jay Dyer of the Orthodox Tradition, get the round of applause. There,

1673
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:29,760
absolutely fantastic end to his rebuttal. Before we put the

1674
01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:31,560
ones and the twos in the chats, I'd like to

1675
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:33,920
turn the time over. It was almost exactly six minutes,

1676
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:37,680
like one second over over to Timothy Gordon. Just want

1677
01:27:37,680 --> 01:27:40,359
to clarify you're ready, yes, you're go to you a second, okay,

1678
01:27:41,359 --> 01:27:43,880
go ahead. In the terms of defense of the Catholic tradition.

1679
01:27:45,199 --> 01:27:47,880
To have your defense and conclusion, you may begin.

1680
01:27:48,600 --> 01:27:52,199
Speaker 3: Well, it's very clear to prove whether or not I

1681
01:27:52,199 --> 01:27:56,159
think the prompt of this question was Jesus institute of

1682
01:27:56,159 --> 01:27:59,079
the papacy. We have to check whether Jesus institute of

1683
01:27:59,079 --> 01:28:04,319
the papacy. Three gospels that I read, and what even

1684
01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:07,439
easterners thought of them, what all of the early Church

1685
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:11,039
thought they meant, even if power would be aggrandized or

1686
01:28:11,439 --> 01:28:16,680
used in ways that Jay objects to later, You can't

1687
01:28:16,760 --> 01:28:19,439
object later in the timeline. You have to object earlier

1688
01:28:19,479 --> 01:28:23,600
to show that Jesus didn't establish the papacy. Here are

1689
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:29,039
and Jay objected as orthodox do to my exegesis of

1690
01:28:29,159 --> 01:28:35,039
those three papal scriptures. But except here is Abu Karah.

1691
01:28:35,039 --> 01:28:38,159
These are all Eastern thinkers before the schism. If he

1692
01:28:38,239 --> 01:28:40,920
meant by these words in the Gospel only Saint Peter,

1693
01:28:41,359 --> 01:28:43,880
the Church would have been deprived of comfort and would

1694
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:46,880
have had no one to deliver from those heretics whose

1695
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:49,560
heresies are truly the gates of Hell, which Christ said

1696
01:28:49,560 --> 01:28:52,439
would not overcome the Church. Accordingly, there is no doubt

1697
01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:54,920
that he meant by these words nothing other than the

1698
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:58,600
holders of the seat of Saint Peter, who have continually

1699
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:01,359
strengthened their brethren and will not cease to do so

1700
01:29:01,439 --> 01:29:03,920
as long as this present age lasts. So is it

1701
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:07,960
multiple people, Yes, it is the people who inhabit the

1702
01:29:08,039 --> 01:29:12,600
chair of Peter. Here's Maximus the Confessor. All the churches

1703
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:15,960
of Christians everywhere have held the greatest Church there to

1704
01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:18,680
be their sole base and foundation. Since on the one hand,

1705
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:21,359
it is in no way overcome by the gates of Hades,

1706
01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:24,279
according to the very promise of the Savior, referring to

1707
01:29:24,319 --> 01:29:27,319
the same scripture, but holds the keys of the Orthodox

1708
01:29:27,399 --> 01:29:29,680
confession and faith in him. And on the other hand,

1709
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:33,479
it shuts up and locks every heretical mouth that speaks

1710
01:29:33,560 --> 01:29:41,439
unrighteousness against the most High. This is Theodore studite. I

1711
01:29:41,560 --> 01:29:44,720
witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves

1712
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:47,119
away from the body of Christ, from the supreme sea

1713
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:50,520
in which Christ placed the keys of the faith, the

1714
01:29:50,560 --> 01:29:54,479
supreme sea against which the gates of Hell, I mean,

1715
01:29:54,479 --> 01:29:57,119
the mouths of heretics have not prevailed, and never will

1716
01:29:57,199 --> 01:30:00,920
until the consummation. Note all of the con tinual themes

1717
01:30:01,319 --> 01:30:04,199
which ring the same in all of these thinkers exeit

1718
01:30:04,239 --> 01:30:07,680
eating the one passage according to the promise of Him

1719
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:10,680
who cannot lie, let the most blessed an apostolic pope,

1720
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:14,640
Pascal rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter.

1721
01:30:15,119 --> 01:30:20,720
This is Theodore Studite, an Orthodox scholar, says of this.

1722
01:30:21,399 --> 01:30:23,920
The same time we find Saint Maximus the Confessor in

1723
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:28,199
Theodore the Studite expressing the view that Rome was, in

1724
01:30:28,359 --> 01:30:31,119
unique sense the chair of Peter that would never fall

1725
01:30:31,119 --> 01:30:35,479
into heresy. This is clean a work, and it's simple

1726
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:40,920
and straightforward, because the establishment of the pontificate by Jesus

1727
01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:46,399
was simple and straightforward in the first Christian century. And

1728
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:50,720
I read you all of these places where for the

1729
01:30:50,760 --> 01:30:54,720
first thousand years the Orthodox accepted the papacy, and you

1730
01:30:55,319 --> 01:30:58,760
heard not a word, not a single word from jay

1731
01:30:58,840 --> 01:31:02,840
to night as to how they accepted the papacy. For

1732
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:05,840
the last nearly thousand years they haven't accepted the papacy.

1733
01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:10,239
And of course, because this is an indefensible relinquishment of

1734
01:31:11,199 --> 01:31:17,079
a millennium old position, it's a relinquishment of the fundamental

1735
01:31:17,399 --> 01:31:21,800
pinnacle of the faith, the fundament of the faith Saint Peter,

1736
01:31:22,239 --> 01:31:26,479
as many many Orthodox Eastern scholars say before the schism.

1737
01:31:27,039 --> 01:31:29,359
He is the foundation of the faith, he's the prince

1738
01:31:29,399 --> 01:31:34,039
of the apostles. Flowery language, yes, But I read from

1739
01:31:34,279 --> 01:31:39,880
multiple councils that the establishment of the papacy in these

1740
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:45,159
three passages is accepted in both East and West. And

1741
01:31:45,199 --> 01:31:47,960
of course this always brings us back to the fact

1742
01:31:48,079 --> 01:31:51,600
that in both East and West there was a pontificate

1743
01:31:51,640 --> 01:31:55,760
for a thousand years, and there was jurisdiction being exercised.

1744
01:31:58,039 --> 01:32:00,640
As I said the first time, we debated, if it's

1745
01:32:00,840 --> 01:32:04,560
just an honorary power, If it's just an honorary role,

1746
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:06,920
like being a knight at a roundtable, and you're the

1747
01:32:06,920 --> 01:32:09,720
first of honor, then you are not appealed to for

1748
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:12,800
an ex communication. You can't fire anyone. Dwight Shrut can't

1749
01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:16,920
fire anyone in the office when he's left in charge

1750
01:32:16,960 --> 01:32:19,880
as a kind of first among equals. That's true enough. Well,

1751
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:25,479
within the first four councils there are appeals being made

1752
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:28,479
to the Pope, the first three councils, appeal being made

1753
01:32:28,479 --> 01:32:32,159
to the pope to excommunicate the eventual number two.

1754
01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:32,520
Speaker 2: In the church.

1755
01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:35,239
Speaker 3: I don't know what else that stands for, and I've

1756
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:38,600
I've tried to see it that way I can't. I've

1757
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:42,920
heard nothing coherent tonight that would answer the question, what

1758
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:47,199
do those three papal scriptures mean. I've read Orthodox scholars

1759
01:32:47,479 --> 01:32:50,920
or Eastern scholars, and an Orthodox scholar cleaner work who

1760
01:32:51,439 --> 01:32:55,560
exeged him exactly the way we did, even if you

1761
01:32:55,640 --> 01:32:59,239
ignore it. Clement of Rome, because it's inconvenient, ignacious of

1762
01:32:59,239 --> 01:33:02,279
Antioch cold, the Roman Church, the one presiding in love

1763
01:33:02,399 --> 01:33:06,760
allah a president ierinais that all churches must agree with

1764
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:09,399
the Roman Church because of its pre eminent authority. Is

1765
01:33:09,439 --> 01:33:13,479
pre eminent authority, flowery language. No, it's juridical language. It's

1766
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:18,880
jurisdictional language. Cyprian of Carthage says, while he's clashing with Stephen,

1767
01:33:19,000 --> 01:33:22,000
he still calls Rome, who he's not happy with at

1768
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:25,560
the time, the chair of Peter and principal church from

1769
01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:29,359
which sasserdotal unity has arisen. This is how the Roman

1770
01:33:29,399 --> 01:33:35,760
Catholic Church stands for those four marks holy Catholic Apostolic

1771
01:33:36,159 --> 01:33:40,479
established at the very first Ecumenical Council. The oneness requires

1772
01:33:40,520 --> 01:33:44,880
a visible sign of unity on earth. All bishops can

1773
01:33:44,920 --> 01:33:47,359
be said to succeed Peter in a sense, but Rome

1774
01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:49,279
succeeds in a special way, and I think that way

1775
01:33:49,319 --> 01:33:54,640
has been made clear by these three scriptural foundations of

1776
01:33:54,680 --> 01:33:55,239
the papacy.

1777
01:33:55,720 --> 01:33:56,600
Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen.

1778
01:33:56,880 --> 01:34:01,319
Speaker 1: Timothy Gordon of the Catholic Persuau, I think we're just

1779
01:34:01,359 --> 01:34:03,279
having a little bit on our soundboard there. It's fine,

1780
01:34:03,319 --> 01:34:06,119
not gonna at cheer, not on purpose. But we actually

1781
01:34:06,119 --> 01:34:09,640
have a new one shipment on the way it looks

1782
01:34:09,640 --> 01:34:12,600
at our board actually shorted completely, so I'm surprised it

1783
01:34:12,640 --> 01:34:16,640
worked this whole time. Fantastic stuff. Appreciate you guys. With

1784
01:34:16,760 --> 01:34:18,600
that super chat in mind. I want to read a

1785
01:34:18,600 --> 01:34:21,680
couple of super chats here. I am Weneman said. The

1786
01:34:21,760 --> 01:34:25,840
Catholic Church says the Orthodox have legitimate apostolic succession, possession

1787
01:34:25,840 --> 01:34:27,720
of true sacraments in Christ. If you have what we

1788
01:34:27,760 --> 01:34:31,399
need to have you wait, if you have what need

1789
01:34:31,479 --> 01:34:36,279
have you for the pope? Interesting every day I'm struggling

1790
01:34:36,319 --> 01:34:39,640
say there's a difference between accepting go Old Rome's orthodoxy

1791
01:34:39,680 --> 01:34:44,239
and schismatic universal supremacy. Tim you complete bad faith actor,

1792
01:34:45,039 --> 01:34:50,359
they said, complete, said war Thunder said Tim is the

1793
01:34:50,359 --> 01:34:54,119
Byzantine Empire and Emperor Basil the first infallible. The gates

1794
01:34:54,119 --> 01:34:56,560
of Hell shall not prevail against your Orthodox Empire, the

1795
01:34:56,560 --> 01:35:00,800
bishops to Basil the first at the eighth ecumen Council.

1796
01:35:01,239 --> 01:35:01,920
Speaker 2: Is that true?

1797
01:35:02,199 --> 01:35:03,079
Speaker 3: Uh? I was?

1798
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:06,920
Speaker 4: I mis cited it's the eighth and I was saying seventh,

1799
01:35:07,000 --> 01:35:08,720
So I was incorrect about that.

1800
01:35:08,760 --> 01:35:09,640
Speaker 3: I should have said the eighth.

1801
01:35:09,960 --> 01:35:12,119
Speaker 1: All right, late night Tweaker said Orthodox again with the

1802
01:35:12,159 --> 01:35:14,800
seventy four percent versus Roman Catholics twenty six percent, absolute

1803
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:19,000
devastation for the Roman Catholics. I like, I didn't know

1804
01:35:19,039 --> 01:35:20,960
this is such a battle, Like is this this is

1805
01:35:20,960 --> 01:35:22,000
a whole new world for me.

1806
01:35:22,119 --> 01:35:24,439
Speaker 2: I just knew the churches and divided. I didn't know.

1807
01:35:25,880 --> 01:35:26,520
Jay's ready to go.

1808
01:35:26,560 --> 01:35:28,079
Speaker 3: He's like, I Gus, no, I'm just I'm trying to

1809
01:35:28,119 --> 01:35:29,560
get my I don't want to keep you too.

1810
01:35:29,479 --> 01:35:32,079
Speaker 2: Long on no, no, no. I I got a review.

1811
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:35,279
Speaker 3: Of these chats. It was it was like what it

1812
01:35:35,319 --> 01:35:35,840
was intense.

1813
01:35:36,479 --> 01:35:38,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was over four and a half hours.

1814
01:35:38,279 --> 01:35:39,399
Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever done a four and a

1815
01:35:39,399 --> 01:35:40,039
half hour debate.

1816
01:35:40,199 --> 01:35:45,359
Speaker 1: So neither have I actually, uh, neither of I'll read

1817
01:35:45,359 --> 01:35:46,319
a few more of you, said, I want to make

1818
01:35:46,319 --> 01:35:48,119
sure we read the super I appreciate you guys as

1819
01:35:48,199 --> 01:35:48,880
my super chatters.

1820
01:35:48,920 --> 01:35:49,600
Speaker 2: I love you guys.

1821
01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:52,439
Speaker 1: And you know, you guys really come and show your

1822
01:35:52,439 --> 01:35:54,560
support for it, for Tim and for for Jay, and

1823
01:35:54,600 --> 01:35:55,720
that's why you're supporting here.

1824
01:35:55,960 --> 01:35:56,920
Speaker 2: Then I appreciate that.

1825
01:35:56,840 --> 01:35:59,760
Speaker 1: Because, yeah, it does cost money to host these things,

1826
01:35:59,760 --> 01:36:01,359
and I don't know if it fully paid it back

1827
01:36:01,479 --> 01:36:04,039
like with the super chats, but it definitely helped, you know,

1828
01:36:04,079 --> 01:36:06,920
and that's really, really, really fantastic. So you guys understand

1829
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:08,960
the importance of independent media and that's very, very helpful.

1830
01:36:09,119 --> 01:36:09,520
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1831
01:36:10,000 --> 01:36:12,039
Speaker 1: I conam Matt said, if I, as a pizza maker,

1832
01:36:12,039 --> 01:36:15,640
put pepperoni on a person's pizza and then give them

1833
01:36:15,640 --> 01:36:18,159
the pizza, does that make the person someone who puts

1834
01:36:18,159 --> 01:36:20,880
pepperoni on pizza passively? Does it make them a passive

1835
01:36:20,920 --> 01:36:25,359
pizza maker? Okay, evening, that's funny and I don't take

1836
01:36:25,359 --> 01:36:26,000
a side there.

1837
01:36:27,680 --> 01:36:30,840
Speaker 3: I wrote a play of paper Scissors Rock for it.

1838
01:36:30,880 --> 01:36:32,960
Speaker 1: Is there something to the paper scissors rock instead of

1839
01:36:33,039 --> 01:36:33,760
rock paper scissors?

1840
01:36:34,159 --> 01:36:35,520
Speaker 2: Why do we say paper scissors rock?

1841
01:36:36,439 --> 01:36:38,760
Speaker 3: I don't know. My wife tells me that's crazy. Is

1842
01:36:38,760 --> 01:36:41,840
it rock paper scissors? Yeah? I always thought that the

1843
01:36:42,439 --> 01:36:44,960
two dieads and then the monad, right, Yeah, I was

1844
01:36:45,159 --> 01:36:46,159
in terms of syllables.

1845
01:36:46,159 --> 01:36:47,359
Speaker 2: I just thought it was like, you know, like that's

1846
01:36:47,359 --> 01:36:47,920
what I said, Like.

1847
01:36:47,880 --> 01:36:49,960
Speaker 1: It's like, give me job hands. You know that's that

1848
01:36:50,039 --> 01:36:54,359
sounds like to me, that's it's a job. Blow Give

1849
01:36:54,399 --> 01:36:55,279
it to me later, bitch.

1850
01:36:55,279 --> 01:36:57,560
Speaker 2: All right. Anyway, I should have said that rock papers.

1851
01:36:57,600 --> 01:36:58,920
Speaker 3: I'm tired rock papers.

1852
01:37:00,079 --> 01:37:00,359
Speaker 2: Uh.

1853
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:05,680
Speaker 1: Protifect also said something very very interesting here said, uh said, uh,

1854
01:37:05,680 --> 01:37:08,159
when Timsy's an old guy with a T shirt greatest Grandpa,

1855
01:37:08,199 --> 01:37:10,960
he takes it literally. If that's talking about house, Grandpa

1856
01:37:11,199 --> 01:37:14,479
was the best. So okay, that's uh, that's some interesting

1857
01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:17,359
things there. That being said, You guys, these people are

1858
01:37:17,399 --> 01:37:18,119
are crazy.

1859
01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:19,239
Speaker 2: Uh.

1860
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:23,199
Speaker 1: War Thunder said Tim. Is Emperor Leo infallible? Is Emperor

1861
01:37:23,279 --> 01:37:25,560
Leo infallible? I am confident of the pauity of your

1862
01:37:25,600 --> 01:37:27,840
heart in all things, and perceive that through the Holy

1863
01:37:27,880 --> 01:37:30,159
Spirit dwelling in you are sufficiently instructed.

1864
01:37:30,399 --> 01:37:30,920
Speaker 2: Nor can the.

1865
01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:35,159
Speaker 1: Air delude you. Saint Leo to Emperor Leo, he infallible.

1866
01:37:35,159 --> 01:37:38,600
It's a swim question. Is Emperor Leo infallible?

1867
01:37:38,920 --> 01:37:40,239
Speaker 3: Is the Emperor infallible?

1868
01:37:40,640 --> 01:37:40,920
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1869
01:37:41,079 --> 01:37:41,920
Speaker 3: Are you being serious?

1870
01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:43,640
Speaker 2: No? No, what do you mean asking me?

1871
01:37:43,680 --> 01:37:45,760
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean I'm talking to the the

1872
01:37:45,880 --> 01:37:48,479
goofball in chat. Yeah, of course not dude.

1873
01:37:48,479 --> 01:37:51,279
Speaker 2: The word guruth thrown around tonight was diabolical in itself.

1874
01:37:53,000 --> 01:37:54,960
Speaker 1: They also said one sounds like there's a sincere attempt

1875
01:37:54,960 --> 01:37:57,399
at Coher and Soather sounds like talking to a theological lawyer.

1876
01:37:57,880 --> 01:38:01,079
We also had h one I'm shot a seventeen said

1877
01:38:01,119 --> 01:38:01,800
go get them, Jay.

1878
01:38:02,359 --> 01:38:04,439
Speaker 3: We should have made people state what their what their

1879
01:38:04,439 --> 01:38:07,600
faith background is for for a comment. Yeah, but then

1880
01:38:07,640 --> 01:38:09,880
they just lie anyway. So they'd say, all, I'm a Catholic.

1881
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:14,960
But but uh, oh.

1882
01:38:14,840 --> 01:38:16,640
Speaker 1: Man, there's there's so many here that we're not gonna

1883
01:38:16,640 --> 01:38:20,319
able to get to tonight. Really, I'm sorry. Well, actually

1884
01:38:20,359 --> 01:38:22,119
got to. Actually we did get through most. Also, it's

1885
01:38:22,119 --> 01:38:24,319
funny we saw there was like AARs five hundred and

1886
01:38:24,359 --> 01:38:25,920
I was like, oh my gosh, what is that.

1887
01:38:25,960 --> 01:38:27,319
Speaker 2: It turns out that's an Argentinian.

1888
01:38:27,640 --> 01:38:31,560
Speaker 4: It's take thirty eight cents night, I'll give.

1889
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:33,800
Speaker 3: I wanted to give Jay credit. So he said it

1890
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:38,159
right the second time. Ordinary Universal Magestarium refers to all

1891
01:38:38,199 --> 01:38:39,359
bishops with popes.

1892
01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:43,079
Speaker 4: He did say it, and my understanding is that's everybody.

1893
01:38:43,119 --> 01:38:45,720
Carosm Well, let me read a couple of these things.

1894
01:38:46,319 --> 01:38:48,119
Uh freedom, freedom works right now?

1895
01:38:48,279 --> 01:38:51,640
Speaker 1: Just at two hundred dollars in US do tweets like

1896
01:38:52,399 --> 01:38:53,760
the soundboard just isn't working.

1897
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:55,359
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. We usually give like you do.

1898
01:38:55,399 --> 01:38:58,039
Speaker 1: You have some confetti at least for them that work.

1899
01:38:59,319 --> 01:39:03,119
There you go, that's they thinking about this. You go

1900
01:39:03,199 --> 01:39:05,279
two hundred dollars to get some confetti. Well, have you

1901
01:39:05,279 --> 01:39:08,479
ever given more than that to the government. It gets

1902
01:39:08,560 --> 01:39:12,920
confettian in Brown people's weddings and their families while they're sleeping.

1903
01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:15,840
That's what we get with more money than that. It's

1904
01:39:15,840 --> 01:39:19,439
not confetti, it's their brain matter of their children. Anyway,

1905
01:39:22,079 --> 01:39:24,680
that's what we pay for. Again, I have your roads

1906
01:39:24,720 --> 01:39:26,720
fixed because you've got to kill Brown people in other

1907
01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:29,640
countries through the US military. I don't like it. It's

1908
01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:31,720
not a good thing. But people, we pay for that.

1909
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:35,279
It's not a good thing anyway. Darkness Society said, if

1910
01:39:35,399 --> 01:39:39,600
Orthodox beliefs in the papacy papacy, why don't they have one?

1911
01:39:40,239 --> 01:39:43,159
Why can they agree on the sinful nature of contraception?

1912
01:39:44,159 --> 01:39:46,960
Why would they interpret the Bible themselves without an interpreter?

1913
01:39:47,399 --> 01:39:49,920
If their wrong, their souls are on the line. Their

1914
01:39:49,960 --> 01:39:53,760
problem is authority. I guess that's coming from a Catholic

1915
01:39:54,159 --> 01:39:56,239
to repeat that If Orthodox believes on papacy, why don't

1916
01:39:56,239 --> 01:39:59,239
they have one? Why can they agree on the sinful

1917
01:39:59,319 --> 01:40:02,439
nature of conscious option? Why why they interpret the Bible

1918
01:40:02,479 --> 01:40:04,520
themselves with that interpreter. If they're wrong, their souls are

1919
01:40:04,520 --> 01:40:06,319
on the line. I think the problem is authority. So

1920
01:40:06,359 --> 01:40:09,840
they're saying, without the Apostolic papacy, then you're wrong. So like,

1921
01:40:10,720 --> 01:40:12,000
I mean, I don't know. I guess it's like a

1922
01:40:12,039 --> 01:40:15,199
sin of a sin of transgression or something. I guess

1923
01:40:15,239 --> 01:40:17,439
you're going hell for it or something. I mean, what

1924
01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:19,399
what is what is the question I'm trying to think.

1925
01:40:19,840 --> 01:40:21,800
I mean, there's souls on the line, So like, why

1926
01:40:21,800 --> 01:40:23,079
do you have a problem authority? I think that's what

1927
01:40:23,079 --> 01:40:24,439
he's saying, your problems authority?

1928
01:40:24,920 --> 01:40:28,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean we just have we have different authorities

1929
01:40:28,279 --> 01:40:30,680
from what they recognize as authorities.

1930
01:40:31,920 --> 01:40:32,800
Speaker 3: To answer simply.

1931
01:40:32,840 --> 01:40:35,840
Speaker 4: But if you want a specific answer on divorce and remarriage,

1932
01:40:35,840 --> 01:40:38,039
we made a whole documentary on this, or at least

1933
01:40:38,039 --> 01:40:41,119
my friends did Lewis and UBI. You can go to

1934
01:40:41,239 --> 01:40:45,119
UBI Petris and watch the documentary his channel about divorce

1935
01:40:45,119 --> 01:40:47,399
and remarriage where you'll see that Pope Gregory the Second

1936
01:40:47,479 --> 01:40:49,880
in the Roman Catholic Church allowed for it. The Basil

1937
01:40:49,920 --> 01:40:52,479
the Canons of Saint Basil that the Roman Church accepted

1938
01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:55,000
allowed for divorce and remarriage. So a lot of these

1939
01:40:55,000 --> 01:40:57,600
things that they have huge issues with, they don't even

1940
01:40:57,600 --> 01:41:00,439
know their own history on it. And you can also

1941
01:41:00,479 --> 01:41:04,279
look up the interview with doctor David Bradshaw on the

1942
01:41:04,359 --> 01:41:07,560
question of sexual ethics and the issue of contraception on

1943
01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:10,039
UBI Petris's channel as well. So those are they're really

1944
01:41:10,039 --> 01:41:15,119
involved questions. It gets into like risk Tatilian medieval theology

1945
01:41:15,119 --> 01:41:19,680
of orsumia, of philosophy of purpose and secondary purposes and

1946
01:41:19,720 --> 01:41:21,760
biology and all that. It's just too much to answer

1947
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:24,359
in one response, so we made that documentary.

1948
01:41:25,840 --> 01:41:27,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, that's interesting.

1949
01:41:27,880 --> 01:41:29,720
Speaker 1: And by the way, ASKCAF said, Jay is the Pope

1950
01:41:29,720 --> 01:41:33,159
of the future, Christ is king and I think believe

1951
01:41:33,199 --> 01:41:35,199
at that. Shout out to everyone who who gave that

1952
01:41:35,199 --> 01:41:36,560
that I was able to get you tonight.

1953
01:41:36,760 --> 01:41:37,840
Speaker 2: I really appreciate it.

1954
01:41:38,399 --> 01:41:40,840
Speaker 1: If people want to find you and follow you, guys, Jay,

1955
01:41:41,239 --> 01:41:43,079
what is the best way people can support your work?

1956
01:41:43,079 --> 01:41:45,079
The links are in the description, but obviously you got

1957
01:41:45,079 --> 01:41:47,359
social media channels. People probably know you and here and

1958
01:41:47,880 --> 01:41:48,920
they may want to support you.

1959
01:41:49,479 --> 01:41:51,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can go to my website and all my

1960
01:41:51,640 --> 01:41:53,760
archives stuff is there. I'm also on rock Finn, a

1961
01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:56,960
free speech based platform. You can find me on Twitter, YouTube,

1962
01:41:57,000 --> 01:42:01,399
all that stuff, and then usually on Fridays with Alex Jones,

1963
01:42:01,439 --> 01:42:03,560
although we're waiting to see you know where that's going

1964
01:42:03,600 --> 01:42:04,760
to go with his court stuff.

1965
01:42:05,359 --> 01:42:07,319
Speaker 3: And then the Sam Hide Show.

1966
01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:11,760
Speaker 1: Yeah check it out. Yeah, and of course Timothy Gordon.

1967
01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:13,359
How can people find you and follow you the same thing?

1968
01:42:13,600 --> 01:42:16,960
Speaker 3: Uh? Yeah, Twitter, YouTube, the usual stuff. I'm at tim

1969
01:42:16,960 --> 01:42:24,720
o'theeology on Twitter and Timothy Gordon on YouTube and my

1970
01:42:24,880 --> 01:42:26,479
show is called Rules for Retrogrades.

1971
01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:30,039
Speaker 2: Well, I've never seen so many defeated people. At the

1972
01:42:30,119 --> 01:42:32,239
end of the show. We all, I think we all

1973
01:42:32,319 --> 01:42:34,560
lost at the end of the yeah, half.

1974
01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:36,479
Speaker 4: Hours, I'd like to say that this was the best

1975
01:42:36,600 --> 01:42:39,760
Catholic debt I ever had. So you actually did, I

1976
01:42:39,760 --> 01:42:42,840
mean better than Trent or any ones I can think of.

1977
01:42:42,960 --> 01:42:47,920
So this was actually a This was like an intense session.

1978
01:42:48,239 --> 01:42:51,319
So this is the best colleague that I've had.

1979
01:42:52,439 --> 01:42:58,159
Speaker 3: Thanks in good job. We remain friends and I appreciate

1980
01:42:58,199 --> 01:43:00,399
you coming out and doing it again the second time.

1981
01:43:01,720 --> 01:43:03,680
Speaker 2: You know what, This was very good.

1982
01:43:04,600 --> 01:43:06,960
Speaker 1: I think in the chat you know, I'm gonna say this,

1983
01:43:07,439 --> 01:43:10,640
you guys both did a fantastic job. I think that

1984
01:43:10,640 --> 01:43:13,439
that the work that you did there was the work

1985
01:43:13,439 --> 01:43:14,720
that you guys did here, and the way that you

1986
01:43:14,720 --> 01:43:17,399
were able to talk this out was probably above a

1987
01:43:17,439 --> 01:43:21,199
lot of people's IQs, including my own, and I appreciate that.

1988
01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:24,640
And it's always good here to be able to hear

1989
01:43:24,680 --> 01:43:26,640
it out and to learn something. And I like to

1990
01:43:26,640 --> 01:43:28,920
say that with debates or with conversations, the key thing

1991
01:43:28,920 --> 01:43:31,399
is is that hopefully you learned something constructive tonight, like

1992
01:43:31,399 --> 01:43:32,119
that's opened to everyone.

1993
01:43:32,159 --> 01:43:33,840
Speaker 2: You learn some constructive and that your.

1994
01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:37,439
Speaker 1: Views were at least challenged, right, because pride and haughtiness,

1995
01:43:37,479 --> 01:43:39,680
you know, can become a very very very big stumbling

1996
01:43:39,680 --> 01:43:42,079
block in the hearts of men, and especially since as

1997
01:43:42,079 --> 01:43:43,720
you know, you get over like some of your sins

1998
01:43:43,720 --> 01:43:45,399
and vices and then you can become like deal with

1999
01:43:45,439 --> 01:43:47,479
ego and pride and issues that end up you know,

2000
01:43:47,520 --> 01:43:50,720
blinding you from from you know, being humble and seeing

2001
01:43:50,760 --> 01:43:51,520
the face of God.

2002
01:43:51,520 --> 01:43:52,920
Speaker 2: Without holiness, you not see the Lord.

2003
01:43:53,199 --> 01:43:54,920
Speaker 1: And we have to really check our hearts at the

2004
01:43:55,039 --> 01:43:57,199
at the gate there of heaven and see, you know,

2005
01:43:57,239 --> 01:43:59,119
really what's going on in our in our lives and

2006
01:43:59,119 --> 01:44:01,479
our hearts and our minds. Being honest because the mind

2007
01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:04,520
is ruthless, is to see flea wicked. Who can know it?

2008
01:44:05,039 --> 01:44:07,000
But God himself right, he knows, he knows us.

2009
01:44:07,039 --> 01:44:09,880
Speaker 3: So I would I would say this to Jay. You know,

2010
01:44:10,000 --> 01:44:14,920
it's it's a couple of things. J knows more about

2011
01:44:14,920 --> 01:44:18,640
the Philioquay than any Christian layman that I know that

2012
01:44:18,720 --> 01:44:20,760
I know of in the public space. So I was

2013
01:44:21,439 --> 01:44:24,800
stepping out there. He did well in that second one.

2014
01:44:24,880 --> 01:44:26,359
I was stepping out there to try to do with

2015
01:44:26,359 --> 01:44:28,720
this on my area. He did very very well. And

2016
01:44:28,880 --> 01:44:31,880
uh and I'm not taking anything away from in the

2017
01:44:31,960 --> 01:44:34,880
second section. Uh I. I you know, I think I'm

2018
01:44:35,000 --> 01:44:39,479
I'm strong on on actus puris, and I would just

2019
01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:42,880
give it to him legitimately. I'm not I'm not dodging

2020
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:46,239
giving credit, Bud. It's a bit like anyone that has

2021
01:44:46,279 --> 01:44:50,479
to go debate Nick Fuentes or something like, He's going

2022
01:44:50,520 --> 01:44:53,359
to have his people in the comments, So there there's

2023
01:44:53,399 --> 01:44:55,960
always that you know, he's he's got his people who

2024
01:44:56,000 --> 01:44:58,279
show up, and that's good. You need your people. And

2025
01:44:58,319 --> 01:44:59,720
I like a lot of I like a lot of

2026
01:44:59,720 --> 01:45:02,319
the throw bros, like where they are and a lot

2027
01:45:02,359 --> 01:45:06,119
of stuff. But yeah, you know, Catholics, we have our

2028
01:45:06,159 --> 01:45:08,560
own problems. They don't They don't stay up later than ten.

2029
01:45:08,840 --> 01:45:13,399
And well, good job. In the second section, I'll give

2030
01:45:13,399 --> 01:45:16,039
you that there's a lot that can be learned about

2031
01:45:16,079 --> 01:45:19,840
the Philly oak Way from from the Tomes of Knowledge

2032
01:45:19,880 --> 01:45:21,680
of Jay Dyer on the Philly oak Way.

2033
01:45:21,920 --> 01:45:24,000
Speaker 2: But well, I think in the end we can conclude

2034
01:45:24,000 --> 01:45:26,640
this this last statement, should all become Mormon.

2035
01:45:26,880 --> 01:45:29,960
Speaker 1: So that's what I got from this. There you go,

2036
01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:32,439
we should all become Mormon. It's a good idea right now.

2037
01:45:32,479 --> 01:45:35,239
I'm kidding anyway, Thank you guys for watching. Shout out

2038
01:45:35,239 --> 01:45:37,800
to my guests today, Jay Dye or Timothy Gordon, follow

2039
01:45:37,840 --> 01:45:40,960
them wherever you can. Shout out Win super Chatters, Shout

2040
01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:43,039
out Win Joey, and.

2041
01:45:42,960 --> 01:45:44,039
Speaker 2: To the rest of you guys watching.

2042
01:45:44,119 --> 01:45:47,159
Speaker 1: Have a great rest of the week as always, and

2043
01:45:47,279 --> 01:45:48,920
the God bless the United States of America.

2044
01:45:48,920 --> 01:45:49,560
Speaker 2: I'm signing now.