WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:05.519 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pee Kenyanas show. Thomas, 2 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:08.519 we got a new series that you wanted to start here. 3 00:00:09.919 --> 00:00:12.000 You mentioned it, and I was like, we need to 4 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:17.160 jump all over it, especially since you mentioned the Oppenheimer 5 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:21.039 movie that's out and that this would be, uh, this 6 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:24.399 would be a good supplement or side by side to it. 7 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:27.679 So tell everybody a little bit about what's your what's 8 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:28.120 you're thinking. 9 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:33.920 I want to discuss the German atomic bomb, but like 10 00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:38.079 everything about it, like if such a program existed, you know, 11 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:43.159 conceptually what you know, what what was the cattos for it? 12 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:46.240 You know what what was the state of of science 13 00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:51.240 at the time. And also in in kind of more 14 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:55.320 apocal terms, you know, I want to talk about nuclear 15 00:00:55.320 --> 00:00:59.799 weapons generally, or atomic weapons in that era. You know, 16 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:03.880 people people I misunderstanding about about about the bomb and 17 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:11.439 about nuclear weapons generally. They uh, people like Thomas Schilling 18 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:14.480 and like Herman Khan. They made the point that nuclear 19 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:17.159 weapons are like any other weapons, they're just far far 20 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:24.040 more muscle bound. The uh, the ability to impose you know, 21 00:01:24.120 --> 00:01:27.319 devastating attrition in an instant the system, you know, marks 22 00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:34.159 them apart, as does you know, very like strategic variables 23 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:39.159 relating to their destructive power and creates peculiar paradigms. I mean, 24 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:43.319 oh that is true, okay, but they don't have they 25 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:46.560 don't have great utility in any kind of like general 26 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:53.120 applied sense, and there's there's actually very few paradigms where 27 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:57.319 they really are are a game changer or that they 28 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:01.599 really advance, you know, the the themiliar rangers of the state, 29 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:05.200 you know, instantaneously, you know, like it there's this kind 30 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:08.159 of like there's this kind of like mythical belief and 31 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:10.520 super weapons just I mean, it's like an ongoing thing 32 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:13.120 that it just seems to have people assign a kind 33 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:17.000 of mystique, you know, to wartech and I guess like 34 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:18.520 nuclear weapons could be viewed it's kind of like the 35 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:20.879 zenus of that. So I mean there's just that, But 36 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:29.439 beyond that, there's deliberately cultivated narratives around around the issue. Historically, 37 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:32.800 like the development of the first atomic bomb. A lot 38 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:36.240 of this has to do with anti fascism, you know, 39 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:39.240 like ideologically anti fascism. A lot of this has to 40 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:43.199 do with rationalizations for you know, America's development of the 41 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:49.280 bomb and attempt to defend its monopoly on such capabilities, 42 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:53.319 you know, the there so there's this idea that was 43 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:59.120 presented by the War Department in the aftermath of you know, 44 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:04.840 the the nuclear assault in Japan that well, we developed 45 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:07.479 this thing because you know, the Third Reich was was 46 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:11.479 feverously developing an atomic capability, and you know that would 47 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:14.000 have that would have that would have changed everything, you know, 48 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:17.800 and and this this evil tyrannical regime set benting world domination. 49 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:20.479 Could I hold hold the planet hostage with atomic weapons? 50 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:23.400 That's and that's preprocess for a lot of reasons, but 51 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:28.479 it does beg the question as to was was the 52 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:31.960 German Reich developing an atomic bomb actively? Uh? That's a 53 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:36.159 complicated question for a lot of reasons, not the least 54 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:43.240 of which not not uh not, the least of which 55 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:45.120 not for reasons, not the least of which is the 56 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:51.159 fact that Oppenheimer was not the quote father of the 57 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:54.039 atomic bomb. Now there was Einstein. A man named Otto 58 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:58.400 Hahn was and this didn't used to be controversial. Okay, 59 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:06.159 Who is Ato Haanohan was born in eighteen seventy nine. 60 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:11.840 He died when he was quite elderly, in July nineteen 61 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:15.680 sixty eight. Han is the father of nuclear chemistry and 62 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:23.639 specifically nuclear fission. Okay, Hahn and his assistant, a lady 63 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:33.800 named let's say Miitner, they discovered the radioactive isotopes of radium, thorium, 64 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:39.639 protecting them, and most importantly, uranium. In the second episode, 65 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:43.000 I'm no physics guy, but I do know something as 66 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:45.160 much as a layman can kind of understand these things. 67 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:47.639 We'll get into why uranium is so important and like 68 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:50.319 what uranium actually is. I'm gonna like bore everybody to death, 69 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:55.560 but it's important to understand and applied capacities. You know, 70 00:04:55.600 --> 00:05:05.920 how atomic research developed into a a a discreetly military endeavor. Okay, 71 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:13.759 but Han also through his experience, through his experiments, which 72 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:20.120 were myriad, he discovered the phenomena what's called atomic recoil 73 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:27.360 in nuclear nuclear isomerism and UH he pioneered UH a 74 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:32.319 lot of the techniques that ultimately gave rise to carbon dating. Okay, 75 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:36.199 So the guy was a The guy was a was 76 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:41.720 was was an intellectual giant. But quite literally everybody subsequent, 77 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:49.600 every every researcher engaged in nuclear science and specifically UH 78 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:54.439 weapons based nuclear research. There they were literally they were 79 00:05:54.439 --> 00:06:00.120 literally borrowing from Han's research Okay, that's indisputable. And like 80 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.360 I said, at in the epoch he was credited as such, 81 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.199 it's this idea that you know, like, oh, that the 82 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:09.480 Germans were just like these crazy fools and they didn't 83 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:11.959 understand physics or something or I mean, that's as nine 84 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:14.639 to be unbelief. Also like this idea that like, oh, 85 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:17.879 like you know, because of anti Semitism, you know, the 86 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:21.160 Germans didn't have a coterie of of top signific minds 87 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:23.680 like that, that's preposterous. Like not only is that preposterous, 88 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:28.160 but quite literally, you know, the technology that facilitated the 89 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:31.480 development of nuclear weapons was literally invented by the Germans. Okay, 90 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:41.519 now for background too, Han he received in ninety forty 91 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:45.519 four the Nobel Prize for Chemistry. And and just we'll 92 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:48.240 get into this again in a second and third episodes. 93 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:49.560 I think we I think it should probably be a 94 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:55.120 three part series. But the but but just nuclear fission 95 00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:57.879 was that wasn't is the basis for nuclear reactors as 96 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:01.040 well as nuclear weapons. Okay, it makes all those things 97 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:08.800 pot not just possible, but concealable. Okay. Interestingly, interestingly, during 98 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:14.079 World War One, because uh Hans a little bit older, 99 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:17.000 he served with love Landvan Regiment, which you know in 100 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:21.319 the Kaisers in the kaiser Reich was like a reserve regiment, 101 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:24.079 generally consistent, like it was kind of like the Home 102 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:27.000 Guard or like what the British is called the Territorial Army. 103 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:34.000 But uh, he actually was mobilized and deployed and uh 104 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:37.399 he was Uh he was attached to a chemical weapons unit, 105 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:42.399 chemical warfare unit headed by Fritz Hobert on the Western Front, 106 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:46.240 Eastern Front, and Italian Front. He was in heavy action 107 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:49.639 and yet he was awarded the Iron Crossed second Class. 108 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:53.879 So I mean, he why do I raise this specifically? 109 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:56.000 It's not just because it's it's not just because it's 110 00:07:56.040 --> 00:08:01.879 interesting trivia, but it to I am, I'm trying to 111 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.759 demonstrate the aspect of Hans' character. Hans was not averse 112 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:13.879 to the you know, applying science in in in military endeavors, okay, 113 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:18.959 in including the somewhat horrible endeavor of chemical warfare. All right, 114 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:23.639 This becomes an issue later on as to what Hans's 115 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:31.199 view was of, you know, applying nuclear fission to to 116 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:34.840 weapons development. Okay. And plus it's just interesting background and 117 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:41.120 there's I I I believe this is very much I 118 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:44.480 believe there's very much a natural progression conceptually, okay, from 119 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:50.360 chemical warfare to nuclear warfare, and I that it's arguable, 120 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:52.159 but I think it's important. And I think people people 121 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:57.759 understand people who understand institutional thinking and the men who 122 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:00.559 populated was institutions and the way they kind of paradigms 123 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:03.000 that they play with, as it were. I think that 124 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.480 it's somewhat inarguable. But this kind of thing was very 125 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:11.240 much on on on the minds of of uh of 126 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:17.960 European physicists. Okay, the concrete engineering of what became the 127 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:21.159 atomic bomb wasn't and we'll get into why that was. 128 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:26.279 But uh, it's like I said, there's this like mythology, 129 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:30.080 there's this punative mythology that it's that both somehow simultaneously. 130 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.080 The Germans were idiots who had no idea how to 131 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:37.360 apply uh, what was called the new physics to war 132 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:40.039 fighting and the engineering of weapons. But in the other hand, 133 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:42.879 they were like these maniacs hell bent on and developing 134 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:45.759 an atomic bomb, and you know, only the only only these, 135 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.559 like only the only these, like you know, genius askenasm 136 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:50.919 like you know, we're able to save the day. And 137 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:53.840 of course, like Einstein is the father of nuclear physics, 138 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:56.080 and and Oppenheimer is the fire of the atomic bomb. 139 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.840 That's total nonsense, okay, And that's not a partisan take 140 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:04.440 and arguable for those I'm sure are gonna send me 141 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:07.919 hate messages about it. That's just not true. It's like, well, 142 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:13.759 I can you know, I can source all of these claims. 143 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:20.759 The let's jump to the end of the war, because 144 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:24.519 I think Irving's book The Virus House as well as 145 00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:29.840 which is a source I rely on tremendously. It's the 146 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:32.039 best book in the German talkic bomb. There's also a 147 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:38.879 book by not By It's about It's about Edmund Teller, 148 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:45.080 And the narrative kind of begins on the date that 149 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:50.840 the of the Hiroshima attack, because that's really people don't 150 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:53.440 realizing the degree to or some Mahatant project truly was 151 00:10:53.600 --> 00:11:00.320 secret and at uh the attack that shocked the world. 152 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:03.200 It's rather amazing the degree to which the Manhattan Project 153 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:07.720 was able to maintain operational security. But I say let's 154 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:10.480 start there for a few reasons, as will become evident. 155 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.039 It's the point at which the world was quite literally 156 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:20.360 introduced to the atomic bomb, including a coterie of German 157 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:26.559 scientists who had been taken prisoner by six and squirrelled 158 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:30.440 off to the United Kingdom. So August sixth ninety forty five, 159 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.399 the BBC Home Service they broadcast the first news that 160 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:40.960 an atomic bomb had been dropped in Hiroshima. The boat 161 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:44.279 announced that the bomb in question contained as much explosive 162 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:47.879 power as two thousand of the rif ten Ton bombs. 163 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:53.279 President Truman had declared that the Germans had worked feverishly 164 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:55.799 to find a way to use atomic energy but had failed. 165 00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:03.639 Now at a premise it's called farm Hall. This is 166 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:15.120 a country house near Huntington in UH. The in in England, 167 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:20.960 a coterie of German physicists were being held prisoner there 168 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:28.759 incident what was called Operation Epsilon. Operating Epsilon was the 169 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:35.399 code name for this endeavor that took place in May 170 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:41.519 one in June thirtieth, nineteen forty five, whereby the Allies 171 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:47.480 identified ten German scientists who were believed of worked on 172 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:51.320 the German atomic bomb program. And UH these men were 173 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:56.360 they were captured, and they were again they were squirrelled 174 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:00.399 away to UH to England and detained. And this in 175 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:04.960 this kind of mansion house near Cambridge called farm Hall. Okay, 176 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:08.919 the proximity to the university is not an accident either, 177 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:11.600 because it was it was a weird kind of incarceration 178 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:15.159 that these guys endured, because on the one hand, it 179 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:17.480 was very punitive. On the other hand, you know, if 180 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:20.480 they if you wanted these men to speak, you know, 181 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:23.080 London wanted these men to speak to the you know, 182 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:26.960 their own academics about the you know, about the bomb 183 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:28.440 and things and if you're and if you're just you know, 184 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.320 kind of like treating people like for for them to live, 185 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:35.120 you know, like like you know, like abject and squalor 186 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:40.000 or whatever, or you know, or abject prisoners in the 187 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:42.320 traditional sense that wouldn't have happened. So, I mean, it's 188 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:44.759 it kind of reminds me of the early days of 189 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:50.960 like spears attention Okay, although obviously he ultimately endured true horrors, 190 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:54.559 as we got into in an earlier series. But the uh, 191 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:58.320 the goal nominally, and I think this is basically true. 192 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:03.000 What what m I six and the US War Department 193 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:06.519 both claimed independently was that the goal was to determine 194 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:08.840 how close the German roy had come of the development 195 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:15.360 of a viable atomic bomb. First among the detainees with 196 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:24.240 Ata Han okay it uh. And this was attested to 197 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:30.320 not just by not not just by his fellow attainees, 198 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:36.159 but but by his interrogators and and and the you know, 199 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:39.080 in the m I six men who were guarding him 200 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.559 and debriefing him. There there was concern that Han would 201 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:44.879 commit suicide because he was so beside himself that this 202 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:48.000 bomb had been created, and he blamed himself. You know, 203 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:53.120 it's not uh like you know that this was this 204 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:56.039 is very poignant, okay, and I don't. This is on 205 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:57.919 my mind, like as I watched the open Hiram movie 206 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:00.279 the other day, Like this idea that like Oppenheimer's single 207 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:02.919 like single humanly created the atomic bomb and lived with 208 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:07.320 this terrible guilt, that's ridiculous, Like that's not you know, 209 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:10.159 it's it's it's as if they like extrapolated like Hans's 210 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:13.840 life and mind and memories and you know, transposed it 211 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.759 out to this kind of character of Oppenheimer, who has 212 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.360 has some relation to the historical man was become kind 213 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:22.120 of like this, you know, it's almost like mythical figure. 214 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:27.799 But the uh A major thh Writtener. He was the 215 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:33.159 British officer in charge at farm Hall. He he he, 216 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:34.919 he asked for Han, and he brought to his office 217 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:38.600 immediately to make sure that his he was stable of mind, 218 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:41.360 and also just wanted to speak to him about, you know, 219 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:46.120 what had just happened. According to Rittner, Han was horrified 220 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:48.919 and again he felt personally responsible for the that's one 221 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:56.759 hundred thousands of people, he told written er Han, Han 222 00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:01.080 told Writtener, And apparently according to in the and witnesses 223 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:05.840 not just written her himself, Rittner developed something of a 224 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:12.679 rapport okay during his time there, and uh Han had 225 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:18.960 told Writtener, you know, on on multiple occasions that he 226 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:23.639 he'd had forebodings about the potentialities of of his discovery 227 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:28.360 of of nuclear fission, but he never thought that, you know, 228 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:33.200 a weapon would be rapidly engineered and deployed with that 229 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.200 kind of destructive power, like not because it was impossible. 230 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:42.799 But we'll get into what what you know, he thought 231 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:46.159 would give a wo would would give the scientific community 232 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:50.919 pause and other things. Now, who are the other detainees 233 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:55.720 of farm Hall. There were doctor Eric Baggi or Bog, 234 00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:01.480 doctor Kurt Diener, a professor named Walter Garreluck, odo Han, 235 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:08.000 of course, Paul Hartek, the famous Werner Heisenberg, a man 236 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:14.720 named Horst Coursing, a professor named Max von Lau, another 237 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:19.960 professor named Carl Frederick von Weisker, and the doctor Carl Wurtz. 238 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:27.680 Now the the the premises at Farmer Hall were bugged. Okay, 239 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.920 everywhere was from you know, the kind of common recreation 240 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:35.720 area to the private court of the men. And this 241 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:40.680 wasn't just this wasn't just incidental. One of the key 242 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:48.680 purposes of detaining the German atomic scientists was the eavesdrop 243 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.440 on the conversations between that, you know, the men themselves. 244 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:58.839 Now as the what the myrophones picked up as the 245 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:04.960 as the news was was h relaid, was that Heisenberg. 246 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:08.720 Heisenberg disputed the possibility that the Americans even had a 247 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:12.640 bomb and dropped it, Like he didn't dispute that Hiroshimos destroyed. 248 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:18.599 But uh he he. He believed it was some kind 249 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.519 of conventional like some kind of muscle bound conventional weapon 250 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:25.240 or series of firebomb raids like had been conducted over Tokyo. 251 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:27.799 Over one hundred thousand people died in twenty four hours. 252 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.200 Like he thought this was He thought this was propaganda, Okay, 253 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:35.160 not because it would be impossible to create a bomb, 254 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:38.920 but he you know, the scientific community was it was 255 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:43.960 a peculiar thing. And the even even you know, even 256 00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:50.039 on the EVA hostilities, the number of men who truly understood, 257 00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:54.240 you know, the new physics and were insinuated into, you know, 258 00:18:54.279 --> 00:18:58.519 the applied research of these things, it was incredibly small fraternity, Okay, 259 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:02.319 And men like that then kind of looked at themselves, 260 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:06.119 with the exception of a certain coterie they ended up 261 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.799 in America, they looked at themselves as being part of 262 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:15.440 a community that kind of transcended politics. Okay. Heisenberg he 263 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:22.119 was personally, uh friendly with a doctor Goudsmith, who was 264 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:25.640 the head of the American Intelligence Mission, which had debriefed 265 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:31.599 when he was initially taken prisoner, and gout Schmidt, uh 266 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:35.240 was a fellow physicist, and they Heisenberg Gousmit knew of 267 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:38.440 each other, and uh, Heisenberger developed like a pretty good 268 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:45.039 rapport with him, and uh he'd asked gods Goutschmidt whether, uh, 269 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:50.720 whether atomic weapons research was something that the Allies were 270 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:55.079 endeavoring to uh, you know, take on or if I 271 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:59.599 or if there was any you know, background of such 272 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:03.359 apply experiments, you know, the end goal of uh of 273 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:06.839 weaponizing atomic energy. And Goutsman assured him that was not 274 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:10.440 the case. And I Goutsmant I guarantee had no idea 275 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:14.079 about the mainhadan project. He was speaking totally honestly. Okay, 276 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:17.599 so maybe it was naivete some people might say in 277 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.480 the part of Heisenberg thinking like that, you know, the 278 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:22.799 kind of the kind of the kind of fraternity of 279 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.440 pure science would mean that you know, no one would know, 280 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:29.640 no colleague would a lie to another, and such an 281 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:34.960 important and like literally earthshaking matter. But that again it 282 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:37.920 was different times, it was different. You know, it was uh, 283 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.240 these guys weren't ordinary academics or scientists, you know, they 284 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.559 they were like the elite of the elite of the elite. 285 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:47.400 And also again like Goutsmith I believe was telling the truth, 286 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:50.279 like he didn't know about the Manhaddan project, you know. 287 00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:54.359 And plus two, I mean, like the it shocked everybody, 288 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:56.559 was like the war in Europe was done, Like Japan 289 00:20:56.680 --> 00:20:59.680 was utterly destroyed and couldn't even defend itself. You know, 290 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:01.759 that's why was like that, like there's there's this lame 291 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:04.359 like defense, like oh, Japan had to be invaded because 292 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:06.960 they were just crazy and like a million Americans would 293 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.519 have died like that, that's ridiculous. The bomb was deployed. 294 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:14.880 These things developed their own momentum. The bomb was gonna 295 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.720 be deployed somewhere. It had been developed to destroy Europe, 296 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:20.079 which is totally insane if you think about that, you know, 297 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:22.960 like genociding your own race with with nuclear weapons. But 298 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:26.920 it but aside from that, it's I don't think the 299 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:33.200 Soviets would have stopped, you know, and they you know, 300 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:35.920 they they were, they were, they were actively the Soviets 301 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:39.119 had had gone to war against Japan in the final days, 302 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:42.000 you know, like who's to say, who's to say they 303 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:47.440 would have abided, you know, Truman's demands had UH had 304 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:51.440 the bombs plural not been deployed. But in any event, 305 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:55.240 that's the rapidity to which too, that's something they keep 306 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:58.920 in mind, like the kind of the core concepts of 307 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:06.960 UH weaponizing nuclear energy. This is really only six years old, okay, 308 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:11.519 So I believe there was something of this idea that 309 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:17.720 America could just rapidly, you know, kind of develop a 310 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:21.279 competency in the new physics, you know, and and within 311 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:27.359 basically half a decade, you know, develop a weaponized capability 312 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:30.240 like it seemed unlikely. You know, it's it was extraordinary 313 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:36.759 and putting oneself in the shoes of Heisenberg, I mean, 314 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:39.519 think about the disorientation of of what he had just 315 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.400 endured and and kind of like what of the German 316 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:51.000 like experience generally like in you know, ninety six. And 317 00:22:51.119 --> 00:23:01.319 finally too, the uh, the Americans in the British came 318 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:05.160 who you know, in operational terms, they worked fairly closely 319 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.119 in the immediate aftermath of the German defeat for for 320 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:15.559 practical reason that those are political ones. The UH. The 321 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:23.000 last German uranium pile laboratory to be seized, that was 322 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.599 the library staffed by Issacar and verts. It was actually 323 00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:34.799 located in the French occupation zone. And UH, the US Army, 324 00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:39.839 with the sentence of the British at all costs, aimed 325 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:43.519 to prevent radio active material and the research data from 326 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.960 this pile laborate uranian pile laboratory from falling into French hands. 327 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.799 Like they they were singularly fixated on this, okay, and 328 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:56.440 the Germans knew this, and that's and that's how UH 329 00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:58.359 and that's why Wicker and Verts ended up in the 330 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:00.759 hands of of the British and not the first. But 331 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:03.519 the reasoning too, in Heisenberg's mind was like, okay, like 332 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:07.279 if you, if you guys have the bomb, like why 333 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:09.759 why why you fixated on you know, grabbing all the 334 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.880 uranium you can and preventing it from falling into you know, 335 00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:16.920 rival hands or whatever like it just but again too nobody, 336 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:20.839 nobody knew about the Manhattan Project other than those involved, 337 00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:29.000 and you know, the uh, the the the five stars 338 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:39.160 around Truman himself, but uh. Overall the feelings of the Germans, 339 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:44.839 Irving characterized it as a sense of recrimination. They were 340 00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:48.200 shocked by the fanaticism of people who are not under 341 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:53.160 direct like physical threat, who just developed, like rapidly develop 342 00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:57.119 an atomic bomb at uh. Like in their mind, it's 343 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.920 like the kind of fanaticism that had been like a 344 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:03.319 sterically attreated to them in the Japanese by the New Dealers. 345 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:05.440 You know, it's like you guys, haven't you guys have 346 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:08.359 you guys have an ocean between the people you claim 347 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.480 your enemy and you're like feverishly developing atomic bombs like 348 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:16.640 that's there's something frankly insane about that. It. 349 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:20.920 Uh, well, let me ask Han, could they could they 350 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:22.440 really have been shocked? 351 00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:27.519 I mean it, how would Han and Eisenberg? How how 352 00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:31.200 up would they have been on new deal? What the 353 00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:32.519 new Deal was bringing in? 354 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:38.599 What what was basically going to happen where Yeah, of 355 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:43.119 course this group of people once once uh control of 356 00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:45.160 the bomb, they're megal and moniacal. 357 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:49.559 Because these guys are scientists, not politicians. And again too 358 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:54.279 it we're speaking of things that happened eighty years ago 359 00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:59.079 and that we take for granted like it didn't you know, 360 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:02.720 and and and also I believe they thought that you know, 361 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:05.880 the degree to which the degree to I mean, listen 362 00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:09.519 to listen to the Hitler's December eleventh, ninety forty one speech. 363 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:15.240 You know, it's some people were people were somewhat flabberg 364 00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:18.519 acid that America was literally talking about making total war 365 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:22.480 on Europe for frankly ambiguous reasons, you know what I mean. 366 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:26.480 Then people didn't even there's a question as to whether 367 00:26:28.759 --> 00:26:31.519 you know, an atomic bomb would even work as intended. 368 00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:35.160 You know, there's a fact, there's a fact that we 369 00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:40.839 addressed at the beginning of you know what, military utility 370 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:45.039 doesn't really have outside of very narrow kind of strategic paradigms, 371 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:46.279 other than the fact that you can like kill a 372 00:26:46.279 --> 00:26:51.799 whole lot of people immediately, you know, and America had, 373 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:55.160 Germany was in ruins, the Red Army was in Berlin. 374 00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.680 The Japanese, uh, Japan's literally a pile of rubble that 375 00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:04.839 was getting bombed the Stone Age every day. Like deploying 376 00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:08.200 uh like, like launching a nuclear attack on like a 377 00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:13.440 ruined country under those conditions, that's somewhat shocking, you know. 378 00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:17.920 I mean, even even if one understands the character of 379 00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:21.400 the men in control of the enterprise. So yeah, I 380 00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:23.359 don't think I don't I don't think he was like feigning, 381 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:28.119 putting on errors or something. And uh, like I said, too, 382 00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:30.359 these are the guys who actually made this possible. It 383 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:33.599 wasn't Oppenheimer, it wasn't Einstein, you know, it wasn't in 384 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.759 Rico Fermi. You know, it was these guys, you know, 385 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:39.960 And it's I mean, there's something you know. Yeah, it's 386 00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:45.880 a trope that scientists are naive, but it's also kind 387 00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:49.279 of true. It was certainly true here. I mean, like 388 00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:51.039 I said, who are these guys faking it to? Like 389 00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:56.039 they you know, they had, they weren't. Uh and like 390 00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:58.000 none of these none of these guys were national socialist. 391 00:27:58.000 --> 00:27:59.960 It's not like they were going out like it's not 392 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:01.519 like they were playing a gearing and saying like I 393 00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:04.000 got to protect the historical record and you know, wrong 394 00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:06.400 foot my enemies like that didn't even feature in the equation, 395 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:10.200 you know, like Heisenberg was a national socialist. Hahn actually 396 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:12.400 like was at odds at the regime not to do 397 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:14.519 something liberal, but he just he just didn't like national 398 00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:18.519 socialism and he didn't you know, he was he wasn't 399 00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:20.799 a guy who was willing to unlike von Braun and 400 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:24.160 it was, you know, willing to go along and be pragmatic. 401 00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:27.079 You know, these guys were, you know, but von Braun 402 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:30.839 was a was a was basically like a you know, 403 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:35.160 a mechanical engineer and like an aviation prodigy, you know, 404 00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:38.480 like he wasn't. That's a different Like the theoretical physics 405 00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:41.200 is a weird thing, and it's like it's it's it's 406 00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:44.720 it's very it's it's like both concrete and abstract, and 407 00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:47.880 it tends to it tends to with it tends to 408 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:52.279 with a track kind of you know, dreamy hyper intellectual 409 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:55.559 personalities and stuff. So no, I don't I don't think 410 00:28:55.559 --> 00:29:03.720 there's anything fake about it. But the uh Han Hanna 411 00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:09.960 described and people and and independent witnesses a tested to this, 412 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:15.079 like people had been with him when he was first uh, 413 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:17.799 when he had his first breakthroughs in his you know, 414 00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:25.960 fish and research. When Han first learned the potentiality or 415 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.359 the implications. Rather, it wasn't clear what the concrete potential 416 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:35.920 was of uranum uranium fishing discovery. He said that, considering 417 00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:41.279 that war was obviously imminent, he contemplated uh, seizing as 418 00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:45.680 much uranium as possible, the majority of which in Europe 419 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:48.240 was in Belgium, and literally throwing it into throwing it 420 00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:54.319 into the sea, or otherwise hiding it to ward off 421 00:29:54.319 --> 00:30:00.359 some kind of catastrophe, you know, resulting from a one 422 00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:05.599 of the combat and states attempting to weaponize it. And 423 00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:09.319 then he realized that's not practicable, and also, uh, you know, 424 00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:13.599 I get, but I mean, I you know, that's that's 425 00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:16.519 that's that's that's the core, because the core of your question, 426 00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:19.400 like Han had those kinds of thoughts because that in 427 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:22.279 his mind, that's what any remotely kind of like morally, 428 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:26.079 anybody was remotely normal, normal like moral constitution would have 429 00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:28.839 those kinds of thoughts like he wouldn't just like, you know, 430 00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:31.599 there's something wrong here with the Americans and British. It's 431 00:30:31.640 --> 00:30:34.920 like putting up huge factories and like feverishly like you know, 432 00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:39.680 producing pure uranium like without without question because like you know, 433 00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:41.599 and it's like why like was was was the Red 434 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:44.960 Army storming across America? Was like no, I mean was 435 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:47.960 with a JIP and he's threatening America Like no, I mean, 436 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:52.200 like there's something there's something unseemly about it, you know, 437 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:55.319 and like it's not I I I totally understand what 438 00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:57.799 he's getting at or what's getting at. And I'm not 439 00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:00.480 at all some peacenick. In fact, like it's scale on 440 00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:03.119 these questions. I think I'm pretty callous, Okay, at least 441 00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:16.960 That's what I'm told. The interestingly coursing what he stated 442 00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:20.480 in the course of this conversation with his fellow detainees 443 00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:24.559 after the broadcast that you know, Hiroshima had been destroyed. 444 00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:28.240 What he said and what he what he and what 445 00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:37.279 he reiterated later was that the level of cooperation, you know, 446 00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:44.440 under military auspices obviously that facilitated the Manhattan Project, that 447 00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:49.920 would have been impossible in Germany. You know, he made 448 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:52.359 the point. He's like, he's like, you know, if the 449 00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:54.160 men in the room, he's like, some of us didn't 450 00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:58.319 wouldn't have wanted to do it on principle. But uh 451 00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:00.559 he's like, even if we had, you know, there would 452 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:03.200 have there would have been different ideas on how to 453 00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:05.279 proceed with this, and there would have been different ideas 454 00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:11.200 on you know, managing outcomes potentially you know, and like 455 00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:14.359 and trying to like build in you know, safeguards into 456 00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:17.759 the into the structure itself, or you know, there would 457 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:19.680 have been there would have been resentments from you know, 458 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:23.799 taking orders from party men, you know. And that's your point. Yeah, 459 00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:26.480 that's the subtext of what he said. Of what Coursing 460 00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:29.000 said is that these men who worked on that man 461 00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:31.519 Handing project they were they were like absolute fanatics, like 462 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:34.279 they were you know, they they were they were frankly crazy. 463 00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:39.559 And that uh yeah, that that goes without saying, especially 464 00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:45.079 if you consider the confessional background and motives and things 465 00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:51.640 of these men in America. I mean, but it the uh, now, 466 00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:59.880 what what was the background here of just gonna introduce 467 00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:04.759 the background of what if any understanding of the weapons 468 00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:12.599 potential of Hans experiments existed. On April twenty ninth, nineteen 469 00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:17.680 thirty nine, this was, uh, this was kind of when 470 00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:21.519 the world became aware of the potential of some kind 471 00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:28.400 of potential potentially you know, game changing of the new physics. 472 00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:39.240 Hans experiments and widely publicized obviously throughout Europe. And there's 473 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:48.039 a French professor named Frederick jeelo or Jeloit. He was 474 00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:55.440 the son in law of Madame Curry. He reproduced Hans 475 00:33:55.480 --> 00:34:03.319 experiments meticulously and he and his team they were confirmed, 476 00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:08.400 uh like like it it was confirmed that like Han 477 00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:10.679 was you know what what what he what he had 478 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:17.559 stated to have proven as regards, among other things, the 479 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:20.320 existence in neutrons during the press of uranium fision and 480 00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:23.639 their situation like that that it was it was signed 481 00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:27.880 off on is yes, this is legitimate. Not a letter 482 00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:31.320 to Nature magazine, which in those days was was like 483 00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:33.320 a leading kind of like it was a combination that 484 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.320 kind of like pop science stuff but also like major 485 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:38.280 scientific discoveries that's where they would be featured in which 486 00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:40.400 it metally sounds weird today about it. I mean, that's 487 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:47.480 the way things work. You know. It's this French team 488 00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:54.880 led by Joeloid. Their letter was titled quote Liberation of 489 00:34:54.960 --> 00:35:03.320 Neutrons and the nuclear explosion of uranium and uh essentially 490 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:04.840 that was sort of like the first kind of like 491 00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:10.119 public declaration of uh, you know, nuclear fish and having 492 00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:16.559 like tremendous weapons potential. But I emphasized potential. You know, 493 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:22.079 there was nothing there. There's nothing demonishably proven here. But uh, 494 00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:31.440 the uh what this led to was in the next 495 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:35.679 few days and UH Gottingen, which is a renowned university town, 496 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:39.199 or at least it was then in Germany at uh 497 00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:45.519 the Physics Colloquium. Uh, a guy named wil Helm hanld Hanley, 498 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:50.000 who was Ah, he didn't know Han, but he was 499 00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:51.880 like a protege of him, because, like, you know, he 500 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:54.719 was an up and coming physicist, you know, everybody you know, 501 00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:57.119 he was kind of the he was kind of like 502 00:35:57.159 --> 00:36:01.039 the grand old man everybody looked to. He read a 503 00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:07.800 short paper on, uh, what do you call the uranium 504 00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:11.719 burning engine? I mean we was talking about a nuclear reactor, okay, 505 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:17.519 and that like little paper by this guy. The trajectory 506 00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:22.239 of German atomic research was basically going towards nuclear reactors. 507 00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:25.400 You know, the idea of like or like a uranium 508 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:28.800 burning engine, okay, you know, like an endless energy source, 509 00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:32.159 and that frankly that would have solved what became Germany's 510 00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:36.119 quagmire militarily in part more so than an atomic bomb would. 511 00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:46.440 And that's a really interesting counterfactual. But that and amidst 512 00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:50.880 all of this kind of excitement, you know, it's got 513 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:57.039 to be said, despite the impression people have, I mean 514 00:36:57.079 --> 00:36:59.920 not just court historians, even people who you know are 515 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:03.039 are more kind of critical and they're thinking about historical topics. 516 00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:05.199 There's this idea that the so that that that the 517 00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:07.079 German Reich was some kind was almost some kind of 518 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.920 like rightest mirror of the Soviet Union. It's not true 519 00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:15.039 at all. You know, like the National Socialist Party it was, 520 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:19.000 it was it was literally elected Hitler himself by the 521 00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:24.719 Enabling Act and by various referendums. He had tremendous power. 522 00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:27.039 But even that wasn't really unprecedented, you know, like the 523 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:30.559 Reich president had had literally like extra constitutional authority as 524 00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:34.320 he saw fit. But you know, the German state and 525 00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:41.320 the National Socialist Party were discreete entities and it it 526 00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:44.000 there were there were, there was tension there, like structurally, 527 00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:47.960 you know, and there was even beyond that, even uh, 528 00:37:48.199 --> 00:37:52.239 it wasn't it wasn't. It wasn't simply because there's plenty 529 00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:54.719 of professors who weren't National Socialists, even the guys who 530 00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:57.239 were basically sympathetic, like they didn't want the government messing 531 00:37:57.239 --> 00:37:59.599 in their affairs, you know, like these were not just 532 00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:05.360 guys who you know owed their oh their careers and prestige, 533 00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.320 you know, something the Berlin government had done for them, 534 00:38:08.679 --> 00:38:10.280 you know. And they also they didn't want to be 535 00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:12.400 ordered to work with other people, you know, like they 536 00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:14.599 that they didn't feel comfortable with or didn't you know, 537 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:17.679 respect or whatever. It was like very provincial, kind of 538 00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:20.000 like very ego driven, but also just very you know. 539 00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:22.079 I mean that that's the nature of academ you know, 540 00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:26.000 and that's that's especially you know, especially the especially the 541 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:30.320 hard sciences and especially what was then called the New physics, 542 00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:33.639 which was literally like the cutting edge of of a 543 00:38:34.039 --> 00:38:37.239 scientific endeavor, you know. So I mean it's some it 544 00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.440 was like trying to herd cats, you know. This this 545 00:38:39.559 --> 00:38:43.119 idea that you know, this is this idea that the 546 00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:46.639 Reich was like just some party state is nonsense, has 547 00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:49.320 this idea that like Germans like you know, some Prussian 548 00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:52.159 some Prussian officer types just like snapped his fingers and 549 00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:53.800 then like the crowd saw like, you know, do what 550 00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:59.000 they're told. Like that's that's nonsense too. Like it was uh, 551 00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:04.599 you know, it's it's uh, it's it was. It was, uh, 552 00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:11.400 it was. It was highly chaotic, you know this Uh. 553 00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:20.760 The subsequent conference that was a that that was arranged 554 00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:24.000 based on all these based on all these you know 555 00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:31.199 kind of findings, and confirmed them, confirmed them, and and 556 00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:38.079 confirmed the research. It ultimately was uh held in secrecy 557 00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:46.679 at uh at in in Berlin at a building on 558 00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:58.199 uh Winter then Linden the U, and this was when 559 00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:03.840 the War Department U got very interested in what was 560 00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:13.320 going on the UH the War Office as well as 561 00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:18.320 Reich ministries attached to it actually or or just kind 562 00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:21.480 of like practically because they were in the same orbit 563 00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:26.800 or had overlapping series of authority. In a very short 564 00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:30.920 space of time. In nineteen thirty nine, had begun their 565 00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:37.519 own uranium research program. It was low key. It was 566 00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:43.599 basically uh, you know, corralling data that had already been produced, 567 00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:48.159 you know, in France and in the German Reich, you know, 568 00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:50.480 and kind of running a comparative analysis and trying and 569 00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:53.039 again like duplicating some of these experiments to make sure 570 00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:57.000 that you know, this was in fact the results were 571 00:40:57.039 --> 00:41:07.760 what they purported to be. And this led to UH. 572 00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:12.360 This led to a Hamburg professor, Hamburg professor named Paul 573 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:16.960 Hartzek and his assistant, a guy named doctor Wilhelm Groth. 574 00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:24.639 They'd written a letter to the War Office just before UH, 575 00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:28.480 just before the Berlin conference and about ten days after 576 00:41:28.519 --> 00:41:31.239 the publication of the of the of the Paris of 577 00:41:31.480 --> 00:41:35.440 the French physicist letter Nature magazine. And this letter was 578 00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:40.960 cited again and again and again by American new dealer 579 00:41:41.079 --> 00:41:44.159 media as well as like oss types all in Sundry. 580 00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:46.760 The letter stated, quote, and this is the letter of 581 00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:49.760 the War Office, okay, by these by this Hamburg professor. 582 00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:55.440 It said, quote, we take the liberty of calling your 583 00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:58.440 attention to the newest development in nuclear physics, which, in 584 00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:00.679 our opinion, will probably make it pass to produce an 585 00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:04.920 explosive many orders of magnitude more powerful than the conventional ones. 586 00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:10.400 That wasn't really a groundbreaking statement. I mean, yeah, people 587 00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:14.880 speculated that that was true, and UH, Obviously, what was 588 00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:18.639 right into this statement was that, uh, this is some 589 00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:22.440 sort of a this is some sort of like uh 590 00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:26.840 you know, low key almost kind of hidden communication between 591 00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:31.000 German Scientific academ and the War Office saying like, look 592 00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:34.320 like this is not only possible, this is you know, essential. 593 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:37.800 We've got to beat the allies the punch and you know, 594 00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:41.000 pursue this course of research. Essentially, like take this letter 595 00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:43.480 of the Fear and the Arments Ministry and like let's 596 00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:45.639 make it happen. There's no evidence that that's what this 597 00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:48.760 letter indicated, Okay, And frankly, like if that's what it was, like, 598 00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:50.800 why wouldn't open a letter be written, you know, like 599 00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:55.679 it's not really other things are done. But you know 600 00:42:55.719 --> 00:42:58.320 so I think some of what is argued around these 601 00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:06.840 these these surviving kind of statements my sort of say 602 00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:08.840 surviving I mean, you know, like a literal letter forum. 603 00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:13.360 I think some of is in bad faith. The uh 604 00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:23.880 you know, and again the uh something uh. The letter 605 00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:28.079 concluded with quote the country that makes first use of 606 00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:32.159 unsurpassable advantage over the others. I believe what he meant 607 00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:36.000 by it is just nuclear fission generally. And again, the 608 00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:40.519 trajectory of this kind of research was towards nuclear reactors, okay, 609 00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:46.480 or a uranium burning engine. I believe that's what they 610 00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:48.880 were getting at, and which is true, okay. I mean, 611 00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:54.199 any anybody who found a way to you know, utilize 612 00:43:56.119 --> 00:44:01.280 atomic energy for uh an inductil military purpose like yeah, 613 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:06.480 obviously like first use compares confers a massive advantage. But 614 00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:09.840 I don't read it as being like again, some kind 615 00:44:09.880 --> 00:44:13.719 of secret agreement, you know, to pursue atomic weapons research 616 00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:18.920 in concert. And I don't read that final sentences a 617 00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:21.440 statement to the effect of, you know, we have got 618 00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:24.639 to develop and deploy atomic bombs as soon as possible. 619 00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:27.280 That's not in context, That's not what it means. And 620 00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:32.760 I'm not playing lawyer ball at all. And frankly too, 621 00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:37.199 it's a bit outside the scope. But the course of 622 00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:40.079 German scientific research, not just relating to the new physics, 623 00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:44.320 but even in conventional engineering and other things, it makes 624 00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:47.239 sense that a nuclear reactor would kind of be the 625 00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:51.480 would kind of be the holy grail of German research, 626 00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:53.760 if that makes any sense, you know, And again that 627 00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:58.320 would have alleviated not just emergent exigencies in the Second 628 00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:03.880 World War, but you know, problems that had compromised Germany's 629 00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:08.880 operational effectiveness and its ability to survive protracted wars as generally, Okay, 630 00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:11.599 I mean in the preceding you know, millennia or what 631 00:45:11.719 --> 00:45:20.480 have you, But that the reaction in London was especially 632 00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:23.519 kind of severe to the French physicist letter, you know, 633 00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:31.760 the Nature magazine letter. The British press when they you know, 634 00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:35.480 just like as they did subsequently when in sei wating 635 00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:38.920 mister Churchill into office, they undertook us like full court 636 00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:45.000 press full of lowered accounts of a new quote superbomb 637 00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:48.119 based on uranium fishing and that was being developed in Germany. 638 00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:51.480 You know, like they just presented this as a foremon conclusion, 639 00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:58.079 as a fact. You know. The four days after the 640 00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:06.320 letter appeared, both the British Treasury and the Foreign Office 641 00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:13.039 were approached uh by Sir Henry Tizzard. He was chairman 642 00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:16.280 of this commit chairman of the Committee on the Scientific 643 00:46:16.360 --> 00:46:20.119 Survey of Air Defense, which had outsized power, as did 644 00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:24.039 pretty much every everything related to the Air Ministry. I 645 00:46:24.039 --> 00:46:28.840 think we talked about that in our tertial series. He 646 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:33.159 said that in uncertain terms Britain should take preemptive action 647 00:46:33.719 --> 00:46:38.159 to deny large sources of uranium to the Germans. And 648 00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:41.519 as I stated, the largest stockpile of uranium in Europe 649 00:46:41.599 --> 00:46:48.119 was in Belgium, and the the sizeable industry for extracting 650 00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:53.320 urate for extracting radium from uranium from uranium oars imported 651 00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:56.199 from the Belgian congo as well. So like get in Belgium, 652 00:46:56.239 --> 00:46:58.159 you didn't just have you know, like the raw stores 653 00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:01.039 of uranium. It was like the infrastruct sure to you know, 654 00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:08.519 process it in basic ways to make it utah. So 655 00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:15.159 essentially with Tizzard was suggesting or demanding perhaps was uh, 656 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:21.239 you know that Britain find a way to you know, 657 00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:28.119 wage war on the continent and capture whatever uranium Belgium had, 658 00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:33.639 you know, with hostility, which operationally obviously there was that 659 00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:36.599 was not going to happen. But the fact that this 660 00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:39.920 was well within their contemplation, and I don't think this 661 00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:42.079 was just propaganda. In the case of the UK, I 662 00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:46.360 think they probably actually believed this. I mean, obviously their 663 00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:49.760 conceptual horizon was totally corrupted by this kind of hysterical 664 00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:52.599 idea of you know, Germany as our enemy, but within 665 00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:56.639 the bound irrationality of that that paradigm, I think they 666 00:47:56.639 --> 00:48:02.199 actually did believe that, uh, a fishion bomb was was 667 00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:06.559 was at that moment possible. And that's kind of a 668 00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:09.880 fascinating uh that that's kind of a there's a that's 669 00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:12.320 that's that's like it's like Frederic foresight stuff but in 670 00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:14.360 real life. And I think that's kind of fascinating. And 671 00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:18.320 there's many many intrigues, uh really you know, like espionage 672 00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:23.199 and stuff and and what have you that like around that. 673 00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:34.039 But I uh, I'm a I'm gonna stop here and uh, 674 00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:37.119 second episode, Uh, I think we'll have to go a 675 00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:40.239 little bit longer, and I want to get into the 676 00:48:40.360 --> 00:48:43.480 uh I want to get into with the actual Virus House, 677 00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:46.559 which is the title of the book, which was the 678 00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:52.480 dedicated research facility for the German atomic bomb, such that 679 00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:54.280 it could be said to have existed as a dedicated, 680 00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:57.679 dedicated program. And then in the third episode we'll deal 681 00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:02.840 with uh kind of like the aftermath and uh things 682 00:49:02.840 --> 00:49:05.920 of that nature. That sounds good. 683 00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:12.880 Are you going to address the popular conception that the 684 00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:17.679 Fear was adamant about getting a bomb and that the 685 00:49:17.719 --> 00:49:19.639 scientists were working against him. 686 00:49:21.079 --> 00:49:23.639 Yeah, And I think it's basically like Heisenberg said and 687 00:49:23.719 --> 00:49:27.559 some of his colleagues said, when when he said that, 688 00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:29.679 you know, we didn't really want to develop a bomb. 689 00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.719 He was talking in terms of like personal conscience, not 690 00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:36.159 like the hell with Hitler unless sabotage the war efforts. 691 00:49:36.519 --> 00:49:38.800 It was that if you know, if they'd been ordered 692 00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:41.599 in it in a formal capacity, or if the or 693 00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:44.880 if the or if the atomic program had been like 694 00:49:44.920 --> 00:49:48.960 the rocket program and underdirect military authority, you know that 695 00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:53.280 they would have resisted that because you know, the unpredictability 696 00:49:53.320 --> 00:49:56.000 of outcomes and just kind of like the in their mind, 697 00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:58.800 like the naked immorality of of just unleashing that much 698 00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:03.960 power U when not you know, necessary for you know, 699 00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:08.679 in a matter of existential survival. I think that's uh, 700 00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:10.440 I mean, that's the way to understand it. But people 701 00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:14.519 want people want to rehabilitate Heisenberg, and I mean they should, like, 702 00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:16.760 no German needs to be rehabilitated, but in their mind 703 00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:20.360 they want to think of Heisenberg and and Hans, you know, 704 00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:23.239 good guys. So they like exaggerate the degree to which 705 00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:29.440 you know, these men had some kind of ideological objection 706 00:50:29.559 --> 00:50:35.039 to finishism. But yeah, we'll get into that. We'll start 707 00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:37.599 with just like a brief understanding of what uranium is 708 00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:40.480 very much a layman. Okay, So I mean, like I, 709 00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:43.360 I'm not suggesting, I'm not being panantic like I when 710 00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:44.840 I started reading about this topic, like I had to 711 00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:47.119 read up on uranium. So I will take like ten 712 00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:50.840 million minutes next episode and like learn about our friend uranium, 713 00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:55.599 and then we'll get into you know, uh, we'll get 714 00:50:55.599 --> 00:50:59.719 into the uh the views of the of the warm 715 00:50:59.719 --> 00:51:04.000 and is re you know, contra the New Dealer War Department, 716 00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:08.480 you know, and and the kind of lack of a 717 00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:14.599 convergence respectively of uh of a common understanding of uh 718 00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:19.559 the military potential of atomic weapons. And you know, like 719 00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:22.800 I said, I I want to get into like the 720 00:51:22.840 --> 00:51:27.559 motivations of why America developed a bomb and uh, you 721 00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:31.440 know that's a complicated topic. But yeah, we'll try to 722 00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:33.280 wrap it up in three episodes. 723 00:51:33.719 --> 00:51:35.880 All right, do plugs and we'll end this. 724 00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:41.039 Yeah. Uh. You can still find me on Twitter, which 725 00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:44.000 I guess that was X or whatever like formerly burb 726 00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:49.000 app capital R E A L underscore number seven hm 727 00:51:49.079 --> 00:51:52.400 A S seven seven seven. You can always find me 728 00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:56.599 on substack, which is my primary platform. It's real R 729 00:51:56.639 --> 00:52:00.880 e A E L Underscore Thomas seven seven dot subsec 730 00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:03.639 dot com. You know, it's find me on my website 731 00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:08.719 number seven H seven seven seven dot com. I'm a 732 00:52:10.119 --> 00:52:15.360 I'm preparing season two of the Mind Phaser podcast and 733 00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:18.000 as well as uh I'm going to Utah in a 734 00:52:18.079 --> 00:52:20.719 couple of weeks to film the first dedicated episode of 735 00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:24.360 Thomas TV on the channel. My YouTube channel is Thomas 736 00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:31.239 TV number seven him as TV. So exciting things are afoot. 737 00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:35.679 In addition, h to like this, you know, Pete and 738 00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:38.079 Keith Woods and other fellows are nice enough to host 739 00:52:38.119 --> 00:52:40.480 me and you know, like be looking out for that 740 00:52:40.519 --> 00:52:43.960 stuff too. But yeah, that's all I got. 741 00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:46.880 Thank you until the next time. 742 00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:48.119 Yeah, thank you man. 743 00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:52.719 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecana Show, 744 00:52:53.800 --> 00:52:58.039 Part two on what I'm calling the German Bomb series 745 00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:01.800 little mini series with Thomas. How are you doing, Thomas 746 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:04.639 and where are we going today? 747 00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:11.599 I wanted to continue kind of with you know, the 748 00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:14.760 background of you know what the state of what was 749 00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:18.920 called the new physics was in the lead up to 750 00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:22.840 the Second World War, especially because as we touched on 751 00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:26.159 were than touchdown as we as we got into but 752 00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:32.360 not completely last time. There's this idea very much reinforced 753 00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:36.599 by the Oppenheimer's film, which in some ways I thought 754 00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:38.880 was a good film. In other ways I thought it 755 00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:40.519 was not a good film at all. I mean, well, 756 00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:44.679 we can get into that maybe when it's more apropos. 757 00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:50.400 But there's this narrative that there was this kind of 758 00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:53.840 mad race. There's two one or two narratives. It's either 759 00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:56.840 that there was this race by all major powers to 760 00:53:56.920 --> 00:54:02.360 weaponize atomic energy and feverishly you know, at Cambridge versus 761 00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:05.960 of Chicago, versus Berlin, you know, presumably somewhere in the 762 00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:08.679 Soviet Union. You know, this was all going on, and 763 00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:12.039 you know this, this desperate race was proverbially speaking, was 764 00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:15.119 one you know, by the Manhattan Project team. That's not 765 00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:19.920 true at all, Nothing like that was afoot. The other, 766 00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:24.920 the other, the other kind of narrative is that, you know, 767 00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:28.320 the Einstein Memo was born of some kind of secret 768 00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:33.199 knowledge Einstein presumably had, or that he had gleaned, you know, 769 00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:37.039 from the kind of German fraternity, as it were, of 770 00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:40.800 of you know, researchers in the new physics that you know, 771 00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:46.119 Heisenberg presumably was, you know, had come to in the 772 00:54:46.239 --> 00:54:51.079 knowledge presumably, you know, borrowing from Fermi's concrete experiments, that 773 00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:54.199 you know, uranium could be weaponized into a into a 774 00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:59.079 super bomb. So Einstein desperately, you know, contacted you know, 775 00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:01.039 people he knew and and then close to the New 776 00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:03.760 Deal regime. You know they you know, including people he 777 00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:05.639 talked about in another series, you know, on the Board 778 00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:08.679 of Jewish Deputies, the American Jewish Committee. They put him 779 00:55:08.679 --> 00:55:11.920 in touch with Sacks. You know, Uh Einstein, I said 780 00:55:11.960 --> 00:55:14.280 Rolys wall street Man, who then said, oh my god, 781 00:55:14.320 --> 00:55:16.639 you know this is you know, there's like like some 782 00:55:16.719 --> 00:55:19.519 corny movie plot, like you know that this evil Nazi 783 00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:24.119 regime is you know, months away from from this super weapon. 784 00:55:24.159 --> 00:55:26.719 You know, we've we've got to alert mister Roosevelt immediately. 785 00:55:27.559 --> 00:55:30.519 Like that. That's ridiculous. I mean, aside from the aside 786 00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:34.119 many like value judgments they were in about the combatant regimes, 787 00:55:34.480 --> 00:55:36.679 like this was not underway at all, like we talked 788 00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:42.400 about last time, literally on the Evil War in ninety 789 00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:45.719 thirty nine, the best minds in Germany. First of all, 790 00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:48.119 there was no there was no organization here, like the 791 00:55:48.159 --> 00:55:53.400 War Office, which itself was kind of a hodgepodge of 792 00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:57.079 of academics, you know, like bureaucratic administrators, you know, like 793 00:55:57.159 --> 00:56:00.960 party men, like guys, you know, like military men, at 794 00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:03.920 least in a liaison capacity, you know, who had some 795 00:56:04.199 --> 00:56:07.880 idea that you know, what's there that you know that 796 00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:12.119 there's a you know that there's some kind of applied 797 00:56:12.199 --> 00:56:16.360 potential you know, to atomic physics. But the direction they 798 00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:18.800 were going was what we consider to be, you know, 799 00:56:20.320 --> 00:56:24.159 conceptualizing what am I to a crude nuclear reactor. Okay, 800 00:56:24.639 --> 00:56:29.880 that did change somewhat as time went on, but there 801 00:56:29.960 --> 00:56:34.320 was never not only was there never uh a Third 802 00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:38.760 Reich version of the Manhattan Project underway, but that wasn't 803 00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:42.440 even within anybody's contemplation, and nor nor was the kind 804 00:56:42.440 --> 00:56:45.880 of organization in place to do that, you know. I mean, 805 00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:49.320 anybody will tell you when you're talking about academics, especially 806 00:56:50.519 --> 00:56:52.639 men a top of their field and in some kind 807 00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:57.440 of experimental science, trying to organize these people in a 808 00:56:57.519 --> 00:57:02.719 dedicated capacity is like hurrying cats number one number two. 809 00:57:04.280 --> 00:57:07.320 You know. The Third Reich was really, uh, the Third 810 00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:10.119 Reich unlike the Soviet Union and frankly unlike the New 811 00:57:10.159 --> 00:57:13.320 Dealer United States. It was uh, it was just kind 812 00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:17.239 of like competing off in hostile like fiefdoms of authority, 813 00:57:17.320 --> 00:57:21.199 and these factions who really didn't like each other, who 814 00:57:21.199 --> 00:57:24.320 were kind of only bound by like faith in the fure. 815 00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:27.320 You know, like it's just kind of like messianic personage. 816 00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:32.320 I don't mean that in crude terms. They're on overly 817 00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:35.440 praising terms. It's just the reality. Okay. So like people 818 00:57:35.440 --> 00:57:37.079 have this kind of mistaken idea, you know, like we 819 00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:39.079 talked about before the Third Reich is kind of like 820 00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:42.239 this like fascistoid like version of the Soviet Union, where 821 00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:44.880 like from the top down just everything was you know, 822 00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:49.119 corralled into the service of the state and its military needs. 823 00:57:49.159 --> 00:57:51.000 Like that wasn't the case at all, and that that's 824 00:57:51.039 --> 00:57:53.960 one of the things that you know, the catalyst for 825 00:57:54.039 --> 00:57:57.280 Gerbal was total wascond be known as the as the 826 00:57:57.320 --> 00:58:00.599 Total warst speech. The catalyst for that was he was 827 00:58:00.599 --> 00:58:03.760 making the case like basically like begging a lot of 828 00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:06.280 some of the patrons of the party, like, look like, 829 00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:09.159 put us out your differences, that we have to mobilize completely, 830 00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:12.159 you know, if we're going to survive. And by that point, 831 00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:14.280 I mean the die was cast, you know, so it 832 00:58:15.239 --> 00:58:20.400 but be that as it may. I'll also say, finally, 833 00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:22.719 and then we'll get into the meat of this there's 834 00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:27.000 this idea in America, and I think, I mean even 835 00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:32.320 among historians with a critical eye, and even with some 836 00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:35.039 people who have military knowledge, I think the direct experience 837 00:58:35.199 --> 00:58:42.559 or based on their theoretical you know, endeavors, there's this 838 00:58:42.599 --> 00:58:45.280 idea that nuclear weapons there's kind of like this trump card, 839 00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:48.679 you know, or that you know, like Thomas Schelling said, 840 00:58:48.760 --> 00:58:51.360 and in the conducts he said it was correct that 841 00:58:51.400 --> 00:58:54.920 they're just like any other weapons, except owing to command 842 00:58:54.960 --> 00:58:59.320 and control nuances, you know, in the computerization and decision 843 00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:04.800 making a key junctures, and the destructive power of them. 844 00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.719 You know, they they're just capable of implementing far far 845 00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:15.199 more attrition, far far quicker than you know, conventional weapons. 846 00:59:15.559 --> 00:59:17.480 And that is the correct way to think about them 847 00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:22.280 in conditions of bipolarity as regards to the political map 848 00:59:24.039 --> 00:59:26.760 in general, parody in terms of strategic forces, and being 849 00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:32.159 in a military situation such as the world of nineteen 850 00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:34.719 thirty nine or even of nineteen forty three forty four, 851 00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:38.679 it's not clear how an atomic bomb would have helped Germany. 852 00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:44.239 I mean, Germany could have annihilated the UK, and I mean, yeah, 853 00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:48.119 that would have helped. I mean in terms of obviously 854 00:59:48.760 --> 00:59:51.239 it could no longer be utilized as you know, US 855 00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:55.239 Army Air Corps and Royal Air Forces on singable aircraft 856 00:59:55.280 --> 00:59:59.440 carrier from which to you know, strategically bomb Germany with 857 01:00:00.159 --> 01:00:03.239 and conventional loads. But you know, the path of victory 858 01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:05.760 in World War Two for Germany is the conquest of 859 01:00:05.800 --> 01:00:08.039 the Soviet Union. You know, Moscow has to fall in 860 01:00:08.159 --> 01:00:14.599 ninety forty one, and thereby, you know, Germany becomes a superpower. 861 01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:18.440 You know, it captures the Central Asian world island. If 862 01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:23.440 you want to use mckinder's language, okay, just you know, 863 01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:29.559 atomic bombing Moscow and killing you know, ten million Russians. Well, 864 01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:31.679 I mean the third right killed ten million Russians. I 865 01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:34.239 mean that did that win the war? You know, like 866 01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:38.800 I I think it was uh Ac mcdeinahjadd It was 867 01:00:38.800 --> 01:00:40.880 an interesting guy at least more I mean, he was 868 01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:46.440 at least the most interesting Iranian ahead of state since Komani. 869 01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:50.679 You know, he made the point when kind of Ntnya, 870 01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:52.800 who was at his most kind of historyonic. You know, 871 01:00:52.840 --> 01:00:55.039 it is freaking that everybody's developing a bomb. You know, 872 01:00:55.079 --> 01:00:58.400 all Israel's enemies are developing the bomb. You know, it's like, 873 01:00:59.400 --> 01:01:03.039 did the did nuclear weapons helped the Soviet Union? You know, 874 01:01:03.039 --> 01:01:06.000 like when the Soviet Union went down not with a bang, 875 01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:10.239 with a whimper. I think it had uh. I think 876 01:01:10.239 --> 01:01:16.320 it had something like twelve thousand warheads you know that 877 01:01:16.360 --> 01:01:19.920 could be married uh launch vehicles and deployed you know, 878 01:01:19.960 --> 01:01:24.599 as like strategically you know, like intercontinentally you know, or 879 01:01:24.639 --> 01:01:27.920 at least like within theater, you know, over intermediate distance. 880 01:01:28.199 --> 01:01:30.039 I mean it's that there's like this idea like nuclear 881 01:01:30.119 --> 01:01:33.639 weapons just you know, you like own you own your enemy, 882 01:01:33.800 --> 01:01:36.559 like in and for verbial or actual terms, you just 883 01:01:36.639 --> 01:01:38.880 own the battle space like that. That that that doesn't 884 01:01:38.920 --> 01:01:43.119 make any sense, you know, in the case of America obviously, 885 01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:46.599 I mean America just had to devastate Germany and Japan, 886 01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:49.599 you know, and it could and then and then America 887 01:01:49.599 --> 01:01:51.800 gets the planet, you know, but I mean no nobody 888 01:01:51.840 --> 01:01:57.760 else was in that situation, you know, ironically, in a 889 01:01:57.840 --> 01:02:02.360 totally counterfactual scenario there like a nuclear armed Japan like 890 01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:06.519 that actually, like Japan could have extorted a lot of 891 01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:11.440 concessions if they had nuclear atomic bombs or something comparable. 892 01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:15.480 I've thought about that and not I think not incidentally, 893 01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:19.239 that's why they were so fixated on a biological weapons program, 894 01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:22.000 you know, and like the father of modern bio warfare 895 01:02:22.119 --> 01:02:27.360 is shiro Ishi. And he got poached immediately by US 896 01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:32.920 occupation forces and delivered the the War Department, soon to 897 01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:35.320 be the Defense Department. They ended up actually teaching at 898 01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:38.280 Berkeley of all places, you know, as as like in 899 01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:40.440 this kind of role of civilian roles like this in 900 01:02:40.519 --> 01:02:44.559 old age is like this unassuming like biologists. But he 901 01:02:44.559 --> 01:02:47.800 he was a he was a he was he was 902 01:02:47.800 --> 01:02:51.880 a war master of bioweapons. Okay, that's something of a tangent. 903 01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:57.119 But another event. All these things are important. They're not 904 01:02:57.400 --> 01:03:06.400 They're not just speculative, you know, uh, sort of counterfactuals 905 01:03:06.440 --> 01:03:10.400 that are fun to play with as we uh. I 906 01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:15.400 think we finished last time with the letter the letter 907 01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:20.320 by the French physicists to Nature magazine, you know, was 908 01:03:20.360 --> 01:03:24.079 discussed the potential of of of you know, some kind 909 01:03:24.199 --> 01:03:29.039 some kind of military application of of uranium, you know, 910 01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:37.119 and reactions from uranium if you know, the the isotope 911 01:03:37.559 --> 01:03:42.239 needed could be you know, cultivated. Okay, and this this 912 01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:44.800 really this caused it say it caused a stir in 913 01:03:44.840 --> 01:03:48.599 the scientific community would be a gross understatement. But the 914 01:03:48.719 --> 01:03:55.320 response essentially by the Germans was, uh, a guy named 915 01:03:55.559 --> 01:03:58.679 Abraham Isau. He was chairman of the quote Reich Bureau 916 01:03:58.760 --> 01:04:01.360 of Standards. What translates the right grous the right grou 917 01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:06.760 of standards in education, specifically the physical sciences. Was it's, 918 01:04:06.800 --> 01:04:10.199 you know, a domain of authority and kind of keeping 919 01:04:10.519 --> 01:04:14.840 you know, such that the universities could be corralled into 920 01:04:15.440 --> 01:04:20.519 a directly military role. It was, you know this this 921 01:04:20.679 --> 01:04:24.000 was this was kind of like this, this is kind 922 01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:28.119 of like the party's way of uh of, uh of 923 01:04:28.199 --> 01:04:30.280 not just keeping tabs on these things, but trying but 924 01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:32.639 you know, if we're trying to direct such potential as 925 01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:35.519 it he emerged in a constructive capacity. But of course, 926 01:04:35.639 --> 01:04:39.559 again we're talking about you know, literally cutting edge theoretical 927 01:04:39.559 --> 01:04:42.079 physics here. Like you can't pick and choose like who 928 01:04:42.079 --> 01:04:44.079 you want to stay aff these things. You need people 929 01:04:44.119 --> 01:04:47.320 actually understand the damn thing in question. You need and 930 01:04:47.360 --> 01:04:50.199 beyond the people are competent. It's like he wasn't any 931 01:04:50.280 --> 01:04:52.920 kind of like national socialist or party man, but he 932 01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:59.480 was basically patriotic. He uh, he'd been, uh, he've been 933 01:04:59.480 --> 01:05:03.920 a leading a already on high frequency electronics. He'd been 934 01:05:03.920 --> 01:05:07.199 an academic physicist for most of his career, but he 935 01:05:07.280 --> 01:05:10.199 was politically active. Again, he wasn't he wasn't any kind 936 01:05:10.199 --> 01:05:13.119 of like party loyalist, but he had followed kind of 937 01:05:13.119 --> 01:05:16.039 the sentence of nationalism in Germany and he was like 938 01:05:16.079 --> 01:05:18.360 definitely behind it, you at least in like a but 939 01:05:18.360 --> 01:05:21.760 but frankly, I mean like patriarch Germany's generally were you know, 940 01:05:22.519 --> 01:05:27.599 but he uh, he was excited at you know, kind 941 01:05:27.599 --> 01:05:30.159 of nuclear physics being brought within his you know, kind 942 01:05:30.199 --> 01:05:33.639 of a number of authority tron lay that way, and 943 01:05:34.280 --> 01:05:37.199 he convened a conference I think we mentioned the GENA conference, 944 01:05:38.679 --> 01:05:42.360 which was directly convened in response, you know, to the 945 01:05:42.599 --> 01:05:49.079 UH announcement by the by the French researchers UH on 946 01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:56.280 their applied UH experiments on a short lasted course was 947 01:05:56.360 --> 01:05:59.320 you know, ada Han Hahn was unable to attend because 948 01:05:59.320 --> 01:06:05.960 he was engaged otherwise in Sweden. Professor a guy named 949 01:06:05.960 --> 01:06:13.679 Professor Joseph Mattok from Vienna UH was uh was was 950 01:06:13.719 --> 01:06:19.239 deputized in favor of his you know, regular assistant Lisa Meitner, 951 01:06:19.360 --> 01:06:21.079 who is also in Sweden, you know, with the man 952 01:06:21.159 --> 01:06:23.480 himself to like to speak for him, mber like sit 953 01:06:23.559 --> 01:06:28.880 in for him. The conference took place in you know, 954 01:06:28.960 --> 01:06:32.639 relative se Recey April twenty ninth, nineteen thirty nine, at 955 01:06:32.639 --> 01:06:37.960 the Ministry of Education building. As we talked about the 956 01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:43.920 UH doctor uh doctor doms who's the head of the 957 01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:51.480 Ministry's research department, he vocally attagged Hahn in absentia for publishing, 958 01:06:51.519 --> 01:06:54.480 you know, his vital discovery. What he perceived is like 959 01:06:54.519 --> 01:06:57.480 his vital discovery, you know, to the scientific to the 960 01:06:57.519 --> 01:07:01.559 wider sign offic community. And that's not the way science works, okay, 961 01:07:01.599 --> 01:07:04.280 unless you're I mean, if head had just been two 962 01:07:04.360 --> 01:07:09.480 years later, you know, and had Germany been UH actively 963 01:07:09.519 --> 01:07:12.000 at war, I think that case could be made. But 964 01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:16.440 even then, again, this was not the main Hadant project. Nobody, 965 01:07:18.440 --> 01:07:26.480 nobody had, nobody among this coterie of new physicists in UH, 966 01:07:26.599 --> 01:07:31.280 in Germany or Austria, you know, had an idea that 967 01:07:31.480 --> 01:07:34.239 you know, this is a military technology. I mean beyond 968 01:07:34.239 --> 01:07:40.320 the fact that excuse me, I'm sorry, beyond the fact 969 01:07:40.360 --> 01:07:44.199 that you know any kind of any kind of apply 970 01:07:44.360 --> 01:07:47.519 technology where you're talking about a truly renewable energy source 971 01:07:48.400 --> 01:07:54.039 that theoretically, at least you know is is essentially inexhaustible. 972 01:07:54.639 --> 01:07:57.199 I mean, yeah, obviously the military implications of that, just say, 973 01:07:57.239 --> 01:08:00.159 the military implications and everything else. But that's but that 974 01:08:00.280 --> 01:08:03.039 was that that that would have been like saying you 975 01:08:03.079 --> 01:08:05.760 know that you know that would that would have been 976 01:08:05.760 --> 01:08:07.840 like saying that, you know, aviation something should have been 977 01:08:07.880 --> 01:08:11.920 kept secret, you know, as it was under as you know, 978 01:08:11.960 --> 01:08:14.599 as as trials underway in America to you know, perfect 979 01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:19.880 the truly viable aircraft, but American elsewhere. But the uh 980 01:08:20.199 --> 01:08:23.119 but uh, Matt talk took up. Uh he went to 981 01:08:23.159 --> 01:08:26.560 bed very much on Hans's behalf, and he uh he 982 01:08:26.640 --> 01:08:29.840 basically cowed the committee into silence. You know things, we're 983 01:08:29.880 --> 01:08:33.239 not We're not a military, this is not a military. 984 01:08:33.239 --> 01:08:36.760 This is not neither a party nor a military you 985 01:08:36.800 --> 01:08:38.720 know conference, you know, we're not We're not under your 986 01:08:38.720 --> 01:08:41.439 authority or anybody else's. You know, basically like, how dare 987 01:08:41.439 --> 01:08:44.119 you insult the man who's you know, basically changed the 988 01:08:44.119 --> 01:08:47.800 world by his research and discoveries. And that honestly set 989 01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:51.359 the tenor man like not not just in the Genda conference, 990 01:08:51.439 --> 01:08:57.039 but moving onward again like it something like it described 991 01:08:57.079 --> 01:08:59.319 never could have happened in the Soviet Union, Like no 992 01:08:59.319 --> 01:09:03.119 matter what no matter what the technology under discussion was, 993 01:09:03.119 --> 01:09:08.279 even if it was a purely speculative technology at that 994 01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:10.760 at that juncture, you know, so it's there is there 995 01:09:10.800 --> 01:09:14.279 is more of a you know, I say this is important, 996 01:09:14.319 --> 01:09:18.079 not just because I've got you know, peculiar fixations as 997 01:09:18.079 --> 01:09:21.640 a as a researcher, but you know, it's it's it's 998 01:09:21.680 --> 01:09:28.079 important to you know, developing a a properly characteristic view 999 01:09:28.119 --> 01:09:31.640 of the German Reich and and its internal situation. You know, 1000 01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:33.880 this is not a place where scientists or cowed by 1001 01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:36.039 the party or by the regime. You know, there certainly 1002 01:09:36.079 --> 01:09:39.000 were as always representative official doom. We try to throw 1003 01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:41.000 their weight around, but they were not in the driver's 1004 01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:45.479 se here at all for a lot of reasons. The 1005 01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:51.680 uh basically the long story short, in addition to a 1006 01:09:51.720 --> 01:09:57.359 lot of theoretical postulates unrelated directly, you know, to the 1007 01:09:57.399 --> 01:09:59.880 subject at hand, which I'm no understanding of because I'm 1008 01:09:59.920 --> 01:10:03.159 not physicists at all. I'm not even like an educated 1009 01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:09.640 leaman in physics. Okay, and first admit that, but to uh, 1010 01:10:10.319 --> 01:10:12.760 they kind of highlight of the event if you want 1011 01:10:12.800 --> 01:10:17.239 to look at those terms. To Gottingen professors, uh, got injuiced, 1012 01:10:17.239 --> 01:10:21.359 and it got even Honley. They they they outlined once again, 1013 01:10:21.600 --> 01:10:23.800 I mean not them once again, but they'd outlined again 1014 01:10:24.600 --> 01:10:28.039 as was on the mind of every man present, you know, ah, 1015 01:10:28.560 --> 01:10:32.399 the practicability of of of a quote uranium burner. Okay, 1016 01:10:32.439 --> 01:10:35.359 I mean this was again, this was such that there 1017 01:10:35.359 --> 01:10:39.079 could be said to be uh a sort of priority 1018 01:10:39.119 --> 01:10:42.640 afforded any conceptual model. I mean this, this was it okay, 1019 01:10:43.079 --> 01:10:49.319 And again that that obviously has tremendous military application. But 1020 01:10:49.359 --> 01:10:52.880 it but not in the way that was being bandied 1021 01:10:52.920 --> 01:11:00.560 by you know, uh people, uh, people like Einstein later on, 1022 01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:07.279 and and also by some uh some uh some people, 1023 01:11:07.319 --> 01:11:11.720 particularly in m I six and uh later on oss 1024 01:11:11.800 --> 01:11:14.199 in the case the former I it's interesting and we'll 1025 01:11:14.199 --> 01:11:20.520 get into that the uh, the I don't want to 1026 01:11:20.560 --> 01:11:22.399 jump people ahead. We'll get into the kind of the 1027 01:11:22.439 --> 01:11:25.279 take from London or the view from London and the 1028 01:11:25.279 --> 01:11:29.239 potentiality of an atomic bomb. But and in the event, 1029 01:11:31.239 --> 01:11:36.880 the h there's been a general band placed uh on 1030 01:11:36.920 --> 01:11:45.560 the export of uranium compounds from Germany, and uh the 1031 01:11:45.640 --> 01:11:56.359 right Ministry of Economics was uh they were adjusting, uh well, 1032 01:11:56.399 --> 01:11:58.800 they they were They're trying to determine like there was 1033 01:11:58.840 --> 01:12:04.479 a recently capture minds in Czechoslovakia. I cannot pronounce uh 1034 01:12:05.319 --> 01:12:09.640 yakima jakumal if anybody on deck, like in the comments, 1035 01:12:10.039 --> 01:12:13.680 I'm sorry if I'm butchering that, I first admit I 1036 01:12:13.680 --> 01:12:20.880 I'm terrible with these pronunciations. But Central Europe is uh 1037 01:12:21.359 --> 01:12:26.399 is rich in in uh in uranium war, okay, like 1038 01:12:26.520 --> 01:12:33.640 natural uranium war. The uh this this hadn't been mined yet, 1039 01:12:33.720 --> 01:12:37.640 but it, you know, had been accessed in some basic capacity. 1040 01:12:37.720 --> 01:12:41.439 But you know, uh who basically who is going to 1041 01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:44.720 get get it first? Like hadn't been decided? You know, 1042 01:12:45.039 --> 01:12:48.079 was it just gonna be spirreled away and given to 1043 01:12:48.159 --> 01:12:50.560 the you know, given to the O k W to 1044 01:12:50.560 --> 01:12:53.479 basically sit on so nobody else could have it? You know? 1045 01:12:53.680 --> 01:12:56.960 Was it was it gonna be given to you know 1046 01:12:57.039 --> 01:13:01.079 this uh to what what? What would was basically gonna 1047 01:13:01.079 --> 01:13:03.359 be given it? Like you know the the Burgening kind 1048 01:13:03.399 --> 01:13:07.680 of committee, that uh Burgning kind of quorum that attended 1049 01:13:07.680 --> 01:13:10.319 the conference at Jenna, Like what what would become of it? 1050 01:13:12.239 --> 01:13:15.840 But it uh what they had allowed was a uranium 1051 01:13:15.880 --> 01:13:19.199 sample had had been dispatched to Gotha gen for special 1052 01:13:19.239 --> 01:13:28.520 analysis and the special analyst, uh who was uh dispatched 1053 01:13:28.600 --> 01:13:34.039 you know to essentially to to report his findings. Was 1054 01:13:34.039 --> 01:13:37.279 was was a guy from the War Office? Okay, and 1055 01:13:37.880 --> 01:13:40.279 what was not known to the attendees of the GENA 1056 01:13:40.359 --> 01:13:44.960 conference and was not probably known to really anybody the 1057 01:13:45.079 --> 01:13:46.960 right chancery. I'm sure that there was some line of 1058 01:13:46.960 --> 01:13:52.319 communication there and Hitler himself, I speculate, and again this 1059 01:13:52.399 --> 01:13:55.680 is pure speculation, probably knew just because he was so 1060 01:13:55.840 --> 01:14:00.319 hands on in terms of UH weapons development and things 1061 01:14:00.319 --> 01:14:06.399 like that. The War Office had begun its own uranium 1062 01:14:06.439 --> 01:14:12.760 research program. But again, you know, it's if they were 1063 01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:15.079 developing a bomb, and if this was like the Raizon 1064 01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:20.920 deetra Avid, you know, like why why why why why 1065 01:14:20.960 --> 01:14:23.479 why were they appealing to civilians at all? You know, 1066 01:14:23.600 --> 01:14:26.760 I mean it because that would presume the knowledge that 1067 01:14:26.760 --> 01:14:30.399 that would presume not just the the conceptual basis for 1068 01:14:30.520 --> 01:14:34.079 such a program, but the knowledge in order to implement it, 1069 01:14:34.119 --> 01:14:36.000 as well as the political will. And it's just not 1070 01:14:36.319 --> 01:14:42.800 you know, it depics. What develops here is I think 1071 01:14:42.800 --> 01:14:49.560 an dis futal picture of you know, basically everybody, uh, 1072 01:14:49.760 --> 01:14:55.399 everybody within the party administration who had understanding, you know, 1073 01:14:55.399 --> 01:14:58.920 who's realistic about you know, the fact that you know, 1074 01:14:58.960 --> 01:15:01.600 inevitably like a war is going to emerge between you know, 1075 01:15:01.680 --> 01:15:05.079 the Third Reich and the Soviet Union. Anybody in the 1076 01:15:05.079 --> 01:15:07.960 scientemic community you know, who was at all engaged you 1077 01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:10.479 know with the reality in national politics at the time, 1078 01:15:11.840 --> 01:15:16.039 and anybody who uh you know had uh had been 1079 01:15:16.079 --> 01:15:19.359 paying attention, you know to to the new physics with 1080 01:15:19.399 --> 01:15:21.520 any with any sort of understanding of it beyond that 1081 01:15:21.560 --> 01:15:23.560 of a layman, like understood that there was some kind 1082 01:15:23.560 --> 01:15:26.720 of like great applied potential for this, but that might 1083 01:15:26.760 --> 01:15:29.319 not be emergent for twenty years. You know, it might 1084 01:15:30.600 --> 01:15:33.720 you know, it might never be fully realized. But again 1085 01:15:33.760 --> 01:15:36.359 too like it wasn't clear what that was, and such 1086 01:15:36.399 --> 01:15:38.640 that there was any kind of like agreement in these 1087 01:15:38.720 --> 01:15:43.000 like very kind of crude conceptual terms. In Germany it 1088 01:15:43.079 --> 01:15:45.359 was as you know, it was basically as like this 1089 01:15:45.399 --> 01:15:47.560 is an energy source. That's one who changed the world, 1090 01:15:47.920 --> 01:15:49.319 you know, it was not like this is this is 1091 01:15:49.359 --> 01:16:00.159 how we built super bombs, you know. And interestingly, but uh, 1092 01:16:02.920 --> 01:16:07.760 such that the United Kingdom had a view of this. 1093 01:16:09.960 --> 01:16:17.960 After the chairman of a Belgian mining concern he uh 1094 01:16:18.359 --> 01:16:23.239 he got wind of the situation in Czechoslovakia with respect 1095 01:16:23.279 --> 01:16:33.039 to uranium. A a guy named m Edgar c Ga. 1096 01:16:35.079 --> 01:16:37.479 He was president of the Belgian Mining consider and a 1097 01:16:37.760 --> 01:16:41.119 union miniere. Okay, I think that's how you pronounced it. 1098 01:16:43.159 --> 01:16:47.560 He contacted, uh, a guy named Tizard who was chairman 1099 01:16:47.560 --> 01:16:49.840 of the Committee and the Scientific Survey of Air Defense 1100 01:16:49.840 --> 01:16:56.079 in London, Okay. And when he did, uh, the outcome 1101 01:16:56.079 --> 01:16:59.199 of their meeting was basically, Tizard he was unwilling to 1102 01:16:59.680 --> 01:17:02.680 he was willing to provide the funds or the authority 1103 01:17:03.359 --> 01:17:09.319 for Sindiire or Cindiata to to purchase all available uranium stocks, 1104 01:17:09.800 --> 01:17:13.640 which there were several thousand tons in Belgium and far 1105 01:17:13.760 --> 01:17:17.960 more available in the open market that it had been 1106 01:17:18.640 --> 01:17:23.640 extricated from Czechoslovakia or extracted you know, before the before 1107 01:17:23.680 --> 01:17:28.359 the before the country fell apart and uh, you know 1108 01:17:28.960 --> 01:17:34.239 what have you when and became came under the dominion 1109 01:17:34.319 --> 01:17:39.840 of the Reich. But you know it, Uh, the fact was, 1110 01:17:40.239 --> 01:17:45.520 I mean it this was not it was the UK 1111 01:17:45.760 --> 01:17:50.399 was very much by this point, this was May of 1112 01:17:50.439 --> 01:17:53.199 nineteen thirty nine, you know, they were shifting to a 1113 01:17:53.279 --> 01:17:55.560 war footing, you know, I mean, it can't be argued 1114 01:17:55.600 --> 01:17:58.079 that this was you know, oh, you know, the climate 1115 01:17:58.079 --> 01:18:03.159 of appeasement was ruling and nobody you know realized you know, 1116 01:18:03.239 --> 01:18:05.399 the danger that lay ahead. If you want to take 1117 01:18:05.439 --> 01:18:08.159 that kind of court historian's view, I mean that that 1118 01:18:08.319 --> 01:18:15.079 they can't be argued. Okay, the the uh what Tizard 1119 01:18:15.199 --> 01:18:21.840 did say is that, uh, if some kind of mass 1120 01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:27.319 of UH uranium reserves or at least that which was 1121 01:18:27.319 --> 01:18:30.279 then available in the open market, if the bulk of 1122 01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:33.319 that ED should fall into enemy hands, he said that 1123 01:18:33.760 --> 01:18:37.960 maybe something that you know, that that could be catastrophic 1124 01:18:38.000 --> 01:18:40.680 and strategic terms. But I mean it wasn't it wasn't 1125 01:18:40.720 --> 01:18:42.880 clear what they was. You know. It's like it was 1126 01:18:42.920 --> 01:18:45.840 basically that, you know, we hear that, you know, the 1127 01:18:45.880 --> 01:18:48.159 crowds want it, so we don't want you know, because 1128 01:18:48.159 --> 01:18:50.359 they wanted We want them to not have it, you know, 1129 01:18:50.399 --> 01:18:52.560 but we don't want it either because it may be nothing. 1130 01:18:53.359 --> 01:19:00.479 You know. The uh, the Admiral basically just are like 1131 01:19:00.560 --> 01:19:03.800 took this to the annualty which you know in in 1132 01:19:04.199 --> 01:19:07.479 the UK. Then as I assume now even I always 1133 01:19:07.520 --> 01:19:10.960 said always had outsized clout in terms of like war 1134 01:19:11.039 --> 01:19:19.000 and peace questions, they said that, you know, they said that, uh, 1135 01:19:20.359 --> 01:19:21.760 you know, not only to went out of the funds 1136 01:19:21.800 --> 01:19:26.159 they gamble with on this like literally but they said 1137 01:19:26.159 --> 01:19:29.880 the possibility of developing a quote explosive of unprecedented power 1138 01:19:29.920 --> 01:19:33.399 from uranium was so remote as to be negligible. So 1139 01:19:33.479 --> 01:19:35.479 again this was like science fiction. Okay, it kind of 1140 01:19:35.479 --> 01:19:38.600 reminds me of if you keep up with I don't 1141 01:19:38.600 --> 01:19:41.359 know if anybody does, but I and maybe they've moved 1142 01:19:41.399 --> 01:19:44.680 on from this kind of fixation. But like some years back, 1143 01:19:44.960 --> 01:19:47.600 you know, if you picked up parameters, you know, like 1144 01:19:47.600 --> 01:19:50.479 the USM ME War College magazine or read these uh 1145 01:19:50.640 --> 01:19:52.680 speaking of the bridge, right, some of these like Royal 1146 01:19:52.760 --> 01:19:55.600 Navy publications they was talking about like rail guns and 1147 01:19:55.640 --> 01:19:58.560 these kind of like super guns that we're gonna that 1148 01:19:58.600 --> 01:20:02.720 were were primarily gonna be based on you know, Uh, 1149 01:20:02.840 --> 01:20:04.760 there's basically gonna be like there's some kind of new 1150 01:20:04.840 --> 01:20:07.960 like quasi surface warfare platform that's just going to like 1151 01:20:08.039 --> 01:20:10.800 change everything. You know. It was a lot of uh, 1152 01:20:11.840 --> 01:20:13.720 I mean that is now like I mean now it's 1153 01:20:13.720 --> 01:20:16.840 more you know, guys kind of trying to rationalize already 1154 01:20:16.840 --> 01:20:20.560 bloated budgets and stuff. But there's there's always there's always 1155 01:20:20.600 --> 01:20:23.319 there's always uh, there's always generals and admirables, as well 1156 01:20:23.319 --> 01:20:26.960 as civilian analysts and intelligence men, you know, like like 1157 01:20:27.079 --> 01:20:29.560 sounding alarm bells about about some future you know, like 1158 01:20:29.640 --> 01:20:32.399 super weapon. You know, this was not like this was 1159 01:20:32.399 --> 01:20:36.760 not something new, Okay, yeah, I mean they the twentieth 1160 01:20:36.800 --> 01:20:41.760 century is remarkable in terms of the punctuated the punctuated 1161 01:20:41.840 --> 01:20:45.720 equilibrium as so to speak of you know, scientific advancement 1162 01:20:45.760 --> 01:20:49.159 by by leaps and bounds. But this this idea that 1163 01:20:49.840 --> 01:20:52.039 you know, there was there was a firm understanding of 1164 01:20:52.079 --> 01:20:56.960 the potential of uranium that and that you know this 1165 01:20:57.159 --> 01:21:01.439 somehow would you know as we make you know, Germany 1166 01:21:02.239 --> 01:21:04.920 it's strategic situation as it was in thirty nine, you know, 1167 01:21:04.960 --> 01:21:10.520 the master of the world. Like that's that's ridiculous. G. P. 1168 01:21:10.760 --> 01:21:15.439 Thompson had an interesting take. Uh he was, he was. 1169 01:21:15.560 --> 01:21:19.560 He was a leading British physicist, perhaps perhaps the leading 1170 01:21:19.600 --> 01:21:25.000 physicist who was close to uh you know, the like 1171 01:21:25.119 --> 01:21:29.279 not just the War Party as it were, but to uh, 1172 01:21:29.960 --> 01:21:34.680 you know, military circles and uh both intelligence and the admiralty. 1173 01:21:36.479 --> 01:21:40.239 He said, uh, you know, it's highly he said, he said, 1174 01:21:40.279 --> 01:21:46.479 the Germans are probably more afraid of US developing some 1175 01:21:46.680 --> 01:21:50.399 uranian based technology. You know is is than than we 1176 01:21:50.439 --> 01:21:55.560 are of them. And uh he suggested, he suggested a 1177 01:21:55.640 --> 01:21:59.119 dis info campaign indicating that the British had in fact 1178 01:21:59.159 --> 01:22:03.760 tested uranium bombs of unprecedented force, you know, so potent 1179 01:22:03.840 --> 01:22:09.279 that the authorities in you know stopped uh stopped testing 1180 01:22:09.319 --> 01:22:13.680 of them for fear of of compromising the uh compromising 1181 01:22:13.720 --> 01:22:22.640 the uh the program completely, you know it. Uh. Churchill 1182 01:22:23.119 --> 01:22:30.399 himself he said that, and he talked of am I 1183 01:22:30.399 --> 01:22:32.279 do like church was like something of a technology. I mean, 1184 01:22:32.279 --> 01:22:34.359 on the one hand, he's like pans a lighte, which 1185 01:22:34.359 --> 01:22:38.439 he was and he and he he he he was 1186 01:22:38.479 --> 01:22:41.439 a disaster as a as as a commander in chief, 1187 01:22:41.520 --> 01:22:43.920 but he did have like a fetish for like wartech, 1188 01:22:44.239 --> 01:22:47.079 you know, I albeit not in an informed way, but 1189 01:22:47.279 --> 01:22:50.119 his view was the same. He said that, like any 1190 01:22:50.119 --> 01:22:53.000 any German, talk of a quote superbomb is pure bluff, 1191 01:22:53.720 --> 01:22:57.119 you know. Uh. He's like, you know this is ridiculous, 1192 01:22:57.159 --> 01:22:59.760 Like nothing like this. There's there's no indicators, there's no 1193 01:22:59.840 --> 01:23:01.399 kind of reindicators that something like this is going to 1194 01:23:01.439 --> 01:23:05.760 be deployed, you know. And he said, even if it was, 1195 01:23:06.159 --> 01:23:11.319 you know, the the uh you know that both the 1196 01:23:11.319 --> 01:23:14.319 Admiralty and the Air Ministry as well as the army. 1197 01:23:14.720 --> 01:23:17.840 You know, their their view is that, you know, even 1198 01:23:17.840 --> 01:23:22.039 if such an application have been cultivated, it would you know, 1199 01:23:22.479 --> 01:23:24.439 anything that would lead to results on a large scale 1200 01:23:24.479 --> 01:23:27.199 would not be emergent for years, you know. And this 1201 01:23:27.359 --> 01:23:29.640 was Churchill talking. You know, this is like arts Wormont 1202 01:23:29.720 --> 01:23:32.920 or ChIL you know. So, I mean it's uh the 1203 01:23:33.079 --> 01:23:35.960 uh he asked a question. 1204 01:23:36.760 --> 01:23:42.960 Yeah, yeah, could that the line of, you know, we've 1205 01:23:42.960 --> 01:23:51.079 been testing these plutonium based weapons and it's remarkable what 1206 01:23:51.239 --> 01:23:53.319 the kind of power they have. Could that be a 1207 01:23:53.319 --> 01:23:57.239 way of propagandizing and saying, we know what these things 1208 01:23:57.279 --> 01:24:02.319 can do, we can't allow the enemy to have them. 1209 01:24:02.439 --> 01:24:05.119 Yeah. I think that that's where I think that. I 1210 01:24:05.159 --> 01:24:08.479 think that I think the people who were agitating for 1211 01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:11.319 that disinvo campaign, I think that was the subtext of 1212 01:24:11.359 --> 01:24:15.560 it too. You know, it wasn't just to you know, 1213 01:24:15.640 --> 01:24:20.000 kind of like bluff the Germans, because frankly, the UK 1214 01:24:20.159 --> 01:24:23.319 did not really have the forces and being to to 1215 01:24:23.439 --> 01:24:27.279 bluff in other ways other than Ledgard Maine. But yeah, 1216 01:24:27.319 --> 01:24:29.840 also I think it could have it could have served yeah, 1217 01:24:29.880 --> 01:24:31.760 exactly what you said. It could have served as you know, 1218 01:24:32.640 --> 01:24:36.079 an ongoing pretext as well, you know, like these kinds 1219 01:24:36.119 --> 01:24:38.399 of things are being developed in and enemy hands. Oh 1220 01:24:38.439 --> 01:24:40.560 my god, like basically became you know, kind of like 1221 01:24:40.600 --> 01:24:44.079 the the Lbit. It was, it was, it was, it 1222 01:24:44.119 --> 01:24:46.560 was top secret. But what became, you know, like the 1223 01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:50.920 the New Dealer rationale for the Manhattan Project. But it's 1224 01:24:51.039 --> 01:24:52.880 but again, I mean the reason it didn't is because 1225 01:24:52.880 --> 01:24:55.920 it's seeming, it like, just so outlandish. And again, these weren't. 1226 01:24:56.199 --> 01:24:58.359 These weren't a bunch of you know, these weren't a 1227 01:24:58.359 --> 01:25:00.520 bunch of World War One generals. I go, and I 1228 01:25:00.520 --> 01:25:02.800 don't know about this. You know, this this this high 1229 01:25:02.840 --> 01:25:05.439 fluting science like you know, these were like these were 1230 01:25:05.439 --> 01:25:07.600 guys at the top of the field, you know in 1231 01:25:07.600 --> 01:25:10.359 the UK, you know, in the nineteen thirties. I mean 1232 01:25:10.359 --> 01:25:13.760 to say that like they they didn't you know, have 1233 01:25:14.159 --> 01:25:21.039 an indigenous you know, uh, academic community that was very 1234 01:25:21.119 --> 01:25:25.199 much on the cusp of new physics research. I mean 1235 01:25:25.199 --> 01:25:27.279 that it is preposterous. It just didn't seem it just 1236 01:25:27.319 --> 01:25:30.640 it just wasn't. It wasn't what people were thinking. Okay, 1237 01:25:30.760 --> 01:25:33.720 And I mean, yeah, okay, anytime you're talking about anytime 1238 01:25:33.760 --> 01:25:37.600 you're talking about anytime you're talking about a rare element. Okay, 1239 01:25:38.119 --> 01:25:40.479 obviously like explosives, whthing comes to mind, this is like 1240 01:25:40.479 --> 01:25:45.680 the nature of it. But that wasn't This was not 1241 01:25:45.800 --> 01:25:48.079 something that was just a universe. Like the way it's 1242 01:25:48.079 --> 01:25:50.119 presented is that there's just something that was like universally 1243 01:25:50.159 --> 01:25:53.159 understood to be like you know, the potential of a 1244 01:25:54.239 --> 01:25:57.880 you know, of a of uranium, and it was only 1245 01:25:57.920 --> 01:26:02.000 a matter of time before you know, the the correct 1246 01:26:02.039 --> 01:26:05.760 formula as it were, was calculated in order to like 1247 01:26:05.800 --> 01:26:10.720 bring it into reality, you know, And that's uh, you know, 1248 01:26:10.800 --> 01:26:15.479 all we can the closest we can get to literally 1249 01:26:15.479 --> 01:26:20.239 peeking inside the minds of people in the epoch is 1250 01:26:20.520 --> 01:26:25.039 you know there you know, their their declarations, either their 1251 01:26:25.439 --> 01:26:27.319 either you know there were there there's you know there 1252 01:26:27.560 --> 01:26:32.079 either their private diaries and their correspondences or you know, 1253 01:26:32.159 --> 01:26:37.119 their their public declarations or their statements. The presence of witnesses, 1254 01:26:37.159 --> 01:26:42.239 and there's not any there's not any indication that you know, 1255 01:26:42.319 --> 01:26:46.079 anybody within the scientific or military community in Europe as 1256 01:26:46.079 --> 01:26:50.960 of nineteen thirty nine, you know, had this in within 1257 01:26:51.000 --> 01:26:54.960 their contemplation. And again part of this was part of 1258 01:26:55.000 --> 01:26:58.079 this was uh, you know, part of this was a 1259 01:26:58.079 --> 01:27:02.079 conceptual bias because again, like it if you're if you're 1260 01:27:03.159 --> 01:27:08.239 if you're a Felt marshal in the Wehrmacht, or you know, 1261 01:27:08.279 --> 01:27:11.479 if you're a British admiral of the Royal Navy, Like 1262 01:27:11.520 --> 01:27:14.920 why what what's what's an atomic bomb gonna do for you? You know, 1263 01:27:14.960 --> 01:27:17.600 like what like honestly, like how how is that gonna solve? 1264 01:27:18.920 --> 01:27:21.960 You know, the the exigencies that you're charged with resolving? 1265 01:27:22.239 --> 01:27:26.199 You know, I mean it's Germany, Germany becomes a superpower 1266 01:27:26.239 --> 01:27:32.439 and and and and resolves. Uh, it's uh and and 1267 01:27:32.560 --> 01:27:36.319 resolves like the long emergency. It's it's faced with if 1268 01:27:36.319 --> 01:27:38.439 it if it, if it can drop atomic bombs on people. 1269 01:27:38.520 --> 01:27:41.079 I mean, it's not you know again it it's there's 1270 01:27:41.119 --> 01:27:47.920 a very there's very there's a very peculiar strategic configuration 1271 01:27:48.720 --> 01:27:52.640 where where nuclear weapons have real utility and that basically 1272 01:27:52.680 --> 01:27:58.000 never emerges. And you know it certainly it certainly wasn't 1273 01:27:58.039 --> 01:28:01.279 emergent in the case of Germany in nineteen thirty nine, 1274 01:28:03.600 --> 01:28:05.359 you know, And people can argue that point. I ate want, 1275 01:28:05.439 --> 01:28:08.279 but I don't I get to come across a convincing 1276 01:28:08.439 --> 01:28:15.159 case otherwise, even in even in uh, even in the 1277 01:28:15.159 --> 01:28:27.560 abstract and more concrete terms relying on UH. Relying on 1278 01:28:27.600 --> 01:28:34.600 the direct UH advice and claims of a professor F. A. 1279 01:28:34.960 --> 01:28:43.319 Lindemann and later Lord Cherwell. Churchill wrote to the Secretary 1280 01:28:43.359 --> 01:28:47.680 of State for UH for Air Defense, for air and 1281 01:28:47.720 --> 01:28:54.520 Air Defense saying that you know, any suggestion of of UH, 1282 01:28:54.960 --> 01:29:01.279 of quoting Nazi super weapons were without foundation. He said, 1283 01:29:01.439 --> 01:29:05.000 only UH, you know, as is expert, namely Lindham and 1284 01:29:05.199 --> 01:29:09.319 had told him, UH, only a minor constituent of uranium 1285 01:29:09.319 --> 01:29:12.319 was effective, which which which you know was took which 1286 01:29:12.399 --> 01:29:16.439 took quote many years to extract. You know, the chain 1287 01:29:16.560 --> 01:29:20.399 process can take place only I've concentrated in a large mass. 1288 01:29:20.880 --> 01:29:25.159 You know, the as soon as the energy develops, you know, uh, 1289 01:29:25.399 --> 01:29:28.640 it's you know likely that you know, it would acquire 1290 01:29:28.680 --> 01:29:31.800 a mild detonation instead of a chain reaction which presumably 1291 01:29:31.840 --> 01:29:34.159 you know, would would would would incerate you know, like 1292 01:29:34.199 --> 01:29:36.520 the uranium core that was needed in the first place. 1293 01:29:36.600 --> 01:29:39.840 And you know or you know, based on this based 1294 01:29:39.880 --> 01:29:42.800 on the nature of these things and you know, unknown variables. 1295 01:29:43.199 --> 01:29:46.520 You know, if an adequate mass were cultivated, you know, 1296 01:29:47.159 --> 01:29:49.159 the chain reaction could ensue that you know, it was 1297 01:29:49.239 --> 01:29:52.520 just massively destructive, you know, and uh in ways we 1298 01:29:52.520 --> 01:29:55.880 can't even conceptualize, you know, all the basic uh not 1299 01:29:55.880 --> 01:29:58.000 that bassic in terms of uninformed because this was a 1300 01:29:58.000 --> 01:30:01.079 new science, but all the kind of all all the 1301 01:30:01.159 --> 01:30:04.159 kind of you know, usual objections of the time to 1302 01:30:04.920 --> 01:30:08.399 you know, why you know we don't this is you know, 1303 01:30:08.399 --> 01:30:10.000 we don't want to We don't want to tickle the 1304 01:30:10.039 --> 01:30:14.079 dragon's tail as it were, you know. And this was 1305 01:30:14.199 --> 01:30:17.359 Churchill himself, like relying on his experts, you know. And 1306 01:30:17.399 --> 01:30:21.479 it's again like what if anything he had he had 1307 01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:25.760 an incentive to you know, confabulate you know, some kind 1308 01:30:25.800 --> 01:30:29.079 of threat where there wasn't one, not not diminish a 1309 01:30:29.119 --> 01:30:32.680 threat where you know where it was. I mean obviously 1310 01:30:33.680 --> 01:30:43.439 it's but that uh and just uh for those who 1311 01:30:43.479 --> 01:30:45.880 don't know a lot about this, and I mean I'm 1312 01:30:45.920 --> 01:30:49.760 one of them, so I'm not being pedantic, Like what 1313 01:30:49.880 --> 01:30:54.960 is uranium and why uranium? Again, uranium is what was 1314 01:30:55.000 --> 01:31:02.239 available central Europe is uh one of the uh natural 1315 01:31:03.159 --> 01:31:08.399 you know deposits of uranium that can be uh harvested 1316 01:31:08.439 --> 01:31:14.399 and or extracted mind and you know utilized in weapons development. Obviously, 1317 01:31:14.479 --> 01:31:18.800 uranium is a chemical element. Uh, what is a chemical element. 1318 01:31:18.880 --> 01:31:21.560 It's an irreducible substance that cannot be broken down into 1319 01:31:21.560 --> 01:31:26.600 other substances. It's symbols you. It's atomic number is ninety 1320 01:31:26.600 --> 01:31:31.840 two UH. In solid form, it's a silvery gray metal. 1321 01:31:33.840 --> 01:31:38.359 It UH. Uranium atoms ninety two protons and ninety two electrons, 1322 01:31:39.239 --> 01:31:44.279 of which six are valanced electrons. UH. Uranium radioactively decays 1323 01:31:44.359 --> 01:31:49.199 by emitting alpha radiation. And the halflight of this is 1324 01:31:50.520 --> 01:31:53.319 it's between something like two hundred thousand and like four 1325 01:31:53.359 --> 01:31:57.159 point five billion years sort of isotopes, so like uranium 1326 01:31:57.279 --> 01:32:00.600 like this is this was like revolutionary medium like date 1327 01:32:00.640 --> 01:32:03.039 the Earth like quite literally I did not know that 1328 01:32:03.119 --> 01:32:08.520 until recently. But the most common isotopes in natural uranium 1329 01:32:08.600 --> 01:32:14.680 is uranium two thirty eight and uranium two thirty five. Okay, 1330 01:32:15.359 --> 01:32:19.439 and uranium incidentally is the highest atomic weight of the 1331 01:32:19.439 --> 01:32:25.960 primordially occurring element primordially occurring elements. Now why uranium two 1332 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:33.520 thirty five urinum two thirty five is uh, it's uh. 1333 01:32:36.560 --> 01:32:40.640 It's in every in every every thousand parts about in 1334 01:32:40.680 --> 01:32:44.159 every thousand parts of natural uranium, there's about seven parts 1335 01:32:44.199 --> 01:32:46.800 called lighter isotope, which is the mass number two thirty 1336 01:32:46.800 --> 01:32:51.520 five the chemical properties are the same obviously, but the 1337 01:32:51.520 --> 01:32:58.079 physical properties differ. Uranium thre thirty five. Essentially, it's gotta 1338 01:32:58.119 --> 01:33:05.520 be the uh, the atomic structure of it's got to 1339 01:33:05.520 --> 01:33:09.079 be manipulated in a way so that, in very crude terms, 1340 01:33:10.319 --> 01:33:14.680 it does not absorb, uh, what it is being bombarded with, 1341 01:33:15.000 --> 01:33:20.119 you know, like the the reaction has to actually be cultivated. Okay, 1342 01:33:20.399 --> 01:33:22.880 and this can only be achieved with the uranium twe 1343 01:33:22.880 --> 01:33:33.359 thirty five isotope. Okay. The uh. Such that Professor Esau 1344 01:33:33.520 --> 01:33:36.479 had any idea the urnium two thirty five was like 1345 01:33:36.760 --> 01:33:40.840 something was like special that it, you know, it was 1346 01:33:41.000 --> 01:33:46.560 distinguishable in terms of its potential for you know, applied 1347 01:33:49.000 --> 01:33:54.840 applied utility, you know, like military or otherwise. He if 1348 01:33:54.840 --> 01:33:57.359 he knew, if he had a deeper understanding than his 1349 01:33:57.399 --> 01:34:01.000 colleagues of why, he didn't disclose that, but he did 1350 01:34:01.039 --> 01:34:03.880 say that at once, we should secure all of the 1351 01:34:03.920 --> 01:34:07.079 able uranium stocks in Germany and we should cultivate uranium 1352 01:34:07.119 --> 01:34:10.960 two thirty five where we find it. He said that 1353 01:34:11.000 --> 01:34:14.680 it joints research group over his administration, but representing you know, 1354 01:34:14.760 --> 01:34:21.119 like all interested factions you know, party, state, military, you know. Uh, 1355 01:34:21.199 --> 01:34:23.680 And this was you know, people kind of like shrug 1356 01:34:23.760 --> 01:34:26.159 this off, like well, that's other asyl like trying to 1357 01:34:26.840 --> 01:34:31.039 you know, insinuate himself into some kind of you know, 1358 01:34:31.720 --> 01:34:34.880 hancho role, I mean, which within with under under the 1359 01:34:35.000 --> 01:34:36.960 under the German Reich, especially you know in the pre 1360 01:34:37.039 --> 01:34:40.960 war years that was not uncommon, but or they kind 1361 01:34:40.960 --> 01:34:44.239 of viewed him as just you know, another scientists kind 1362 01:34:44.279 --> 01:34:48.359 of you know, being hysterical. And for most of the 1363 01:34:48.399 --> 01:34:51.000 people present at the at the GENA conference and these 1364 01:34:51.039 --> 01:34:55.920 subsequent sin of meetings of this coterie that had you know, 1365 01:34:56.560 --> 01:34:59.439 that was involved in the uh you know, or that 1366 01:34:59.439 --> 01:35:02.800 there that was know within this kind of core of 1367 01:35:02.880 --> 01:35:07.560 people from the Department of Educational Standards as well as 1368 01:35:07.600 --> 01:35:10.479 the War Office. You know that nobody had heard about 1369 01:35:10.680 --> 01:35:14.479 uranium or uranium research until until the war broke out. 1370 01:35:14.600 --> 01:35:21.880 You know, as it happened. When the war did break out, 1371 01:35:22.720 --> 01:35:25.960 there was ah, you know, there was the there was 1372 01:35:26.000 --> 01:35:29.039 there was the there was the nominally civilian research team 1373 01:35:29.399 --> 01:35:32.920 that we just mentioned that the War Office had kind 1374 01:35:32.960 --> 01:35:35.600 of secretly you know organized and like I said, like 1375 01:35:35.680 --> 01:35:37.600 I I believe there's a direct line from them to 1376 01:35:37.640 --> 01:35:39.840 the chance for Adolf Hitler, although I can't prove that. 1377 01:35:40.600 --> 01:35:44.600 But uh, there were actually two teams in total working 1378 01:35:44.640 --> 01:35:47.600 on relatedly small scale uranium research like on the day 1379 01:35:47.640 --> 01:35:52.760 World War two broke out. Okay, at doctor Kurt Diebner, 1380 01:35:52.800 --> 01:35:55.840 who's the who's the here the armies expert on nuclear 1381 01:35:55.840 --> 01:36:06.560 physics of these uh? The uh the the the Deepners 1382 01:36:06.640 --> 01:36:12.760 was sam honestly dismantled the very day after Brendan, France 1383 01:36:12.760 --> 01:36:17.199 declared one in Germany PROSESL somehow to hear an interview 1384 01:36:17.239 --> 01:36:23.800 with General Becker, who's the chief of Army Ordnance. He 1385 01:36:23.840 --> 01:36:29.479 obtained a promise of full War Office support and full 1386 01:36:29.520 --> 01:36:34.760 and exclusive support for his uh, for his you know, 1387 01:36:34.800 --> 01:36:38.119 for his team's research endeavors that the expensed that Deepeners. Now, 1388 01:36:38.520 --> 01:36:40.520 some people will speculate it's kind of like the dog 1389 01:36:40.600 --> 01:36:43.920 that didn't bark in evidentiary terms, like, well, how do 1390 01:36:44.000 --> 01:36:46.439 you pull this off? Especially considering he was a civilian 1391 01:36:46.479 --> 01:36:49.840 and Deepner was insinuated into the army establishment. He must 1392 01:36:49.880 --> 01:36:52.640 have he must have promised some kind of results. I 1393 01:36:52.640 --> 01:36:54.319 don't think that. I don't I don't see that as 1394 01:36:54.319 --> 01:36:59.239 possible because I mean, you know, Becker, among other things, 1395 01:36:59.600 --> 01:37:01.720 you know, he get to that position without under having 1396 01:37:01.720 --> 01:37:05.640 a basic understanding of of of of you know, of 1397 01:37:05.720 --> 01:37:07.640 chemistry at least, you know, I mean it was You're 1398 01:37:07.640 --> 01:37:13.159 not talking about some man in the street as relates 1399 01:37:13.199 --> 01:37:16.840 to applied science, you know, even something that was then 1400 01:37:16.880 --> 01:37:24.439 as kind of theoretically uh abstract or you know, unknown, 1401 01:37:24.920 --> 01:37:31.119 as as as atomic physics. But I I don't, you know, 1402 01:37:31.279 --> 01:37:33.119 I don't. I don't see what Ese could have produced 1403 01:37:33.159 --> 01:37:36.039 either in order to kind of like in consider or 1404 01:37:36.039 --> 01:37:41.680 in consideration of that guarantee that supposedly would have been 1405 01:37:41.680 --> 01:37:48.560 made that Deebner couldn't have. I speculated just comes down 1406 01:37:48.680 --> 01:37:51.239 to Becker having more confidence in one man over the other. 1407 01:37:51.359 --> 01:37:53.960 But again, who knows. I think all of this is 1408 01:37:54.039 --> 01:37:56.640 kind of much ado about nothing, because the point I 1409 01:37:56.640 --> 01:37:59.079 think the key takeaway is that this was not viewed 1410 01:37:59.079 --> 01:38:01.680 as a priority, you know, not that it was uh 1411 01:38:02.399 --> 01:38:05.760 you know, I I think probably improved terms. Becker didn't 1412 01:38:05.760 --> 01:38:09.079 really give a shit, you know. I mean he Germany 1413 01:38:09.119 --> 01:38:12.640 was now at war with Britain and France, you know, 1414 01:38:12.680 --> 01:38:14.960 and his priority was, you know, doing what he had 1415 01:38:15.000 --> 01:38:17.720 to win that war. You know, like what one agghead 1416 01:38:17.760 --> 01:38:20.079 is bringing to the table versus another one. Well, he 1417 01:38:20.159 --> 01:38:22.760 makes the better argument. He gets the you know, he 1418 01:38:22.800 --> 01:38:25.560 gets the he gets the shudder, you know. I mean 1419 01:38:25.560 --> 01:38:28.079 that's these things so often are. And like I said, 1420 01:38:28.119 --> 01:38:30.840 I mean the speculation is basically people filling in the 1421 01:38:30.880 --> 01:38:34.159 gaps with what they want to to substantiate a narrative 1422 01:38:34.640 --> 01:38:38.560 that's you know, not this not uh substantiated by the record, 1423 01:38:38.760 --> 01:38:45.000 you know. I mean, so that's species. Anyway, what Becker 1424 01:38:45.039 --> 01:38:48.359 did agree to, what Esau did come away with, aside 1425 01:38:48.359 --> 01:38:50.239 from like a promise of you know, kind of funding 1426 01:38:50.279 --> 01:38:56.720 and support, uh was an official voucher certifying the military 1427 01:38:56.760 --> 01:38:59.279 importance of the project for the war efforts. But I mean, 1428 01:38:59.319 --> 01:39:01.439 like all kinds of all kinds of things we're kind 1429 01:39:01.439 --> 01:39:04.680 of given that proverbial stand, especially later on and kind 1430 01:39:04.680 --> 01:39:06.640 of more liberally by the s s believe or not, 1431 01:39:06.760 --> 01:39:09.800 I mean anything and against the sas basically whatever you've 1432 01:39:09.800 --> 01:39:12.159 givens him or like any kind of signific merit, you know, 1433 01:39:12.479 --> 01:39:15.279 whether it was you know, like uh, you know if 1434 01:39:15.359 --> 01:39:18.319 id you know, transforming like you know, corny to jet 1435 01:39:18.359 --> 01:39:20.079 fu wooler and I mean silly, but you know what 1436 01:39:20.159 --> 01:39:23.039 I mean, like it, I don't like the fact that 1437 01:39:23.680 --> 01:39:26.520 the fact that I was able to the that he 1438 01:39:26.560 --> 01:39:31.039 was able to get you know, like the Chief Army ordinance, 1439 01:39:31.920 --> 01:39:34.680 you know, to to sign off on his research. I 1440 01:39:34.680 --> 01:39:36.960 mean that basically means he was competent then like whatever 1441 01:39:37.000 --> 01:39:39.560 he came up with, like probably would you know, be utile, 1442 01:39:39.880 --> 01:39:41.439 and whether it was or not, you know, like whatever 1443 01:39:41.479 --> 01:39:43.000 he came up with belong to the army, you know, 1444 01:39:43.119 --> 01:39:46.520 not not to not to not to any you know, 1445 01:39:46.600 --> 01:39:54.840 private sector or university patron. So that's oh, that's that's 1446 01:39:54.920 --> 01:39:58.720 kind of the foundation of uh, that's kind of the 1447 01:39:58.720 --> 01:40:01.720 foundation of you know, like leading into the war, like 1448 01:40:01.800 --> 01:40:08.199 what what the state of uh, you know, atomic research was. 1449 01:40:08.600 --> 01:40:12.439 Of course, ultimately like during the war the title uh, 1450 01:40:12.560 --> 01:40:15.159 mister Irvings book the Virus House, I mean that was 1451 01:40:15.199 --> 01:40:22.560 the heavy water facility that was dedicated to you know, 1452 01:40:26.039 --> 01:40:29.239 that was dedicated to you know, cultivating uranium two thirty five. 1453 01:40:31.920 --> 01:40:35.479 So I mean there's something there. Yeah, and uh, I 1454 01:40:35.520 --> 01:40:37.439 hope not boring everybody to death. I'll try to wrap 1455 01:40:37.439 --> 01:40:41.399 this up in the next episode, but it but yeah, 1456 01:40:41.439 --> 01:40:42.840 that's I don't want to I don't want to get 1457 01:40:42.840 --> 01:40:44.479 into that now because then we'd be talking for the 1458 01:40:44.560 --> 01:40:51.159 next hour. But yeah, that's uh, that's uh, basically the 1459 01:40:51.159 --> 01:40:53.960 the foundation and you know, like I said, I think 1460 01:40:53.960 --> 01:40:56.039 it's the reason why I wanted to cover this now 1461 01:40:56.199 --> 01:40:57.800 was I think it's timely gonna ground to the ab 1462 01:40:57.840 --> 01:40:59.640 and Iron movie, which in a lot of ways is 1463 01:40:59.680 --> 01:41:01.680 not a bad film. I suppose you were Hollywood, and 1464 01:41:01.800 --> 01:41:04.520 like some people, I believe chrits reh Nolan was kind 1465 01:41:04.520 --> 01:41:08.359 of surreptigially signaling the political things. I mean, that's a 1466 01:41:08.439 --> 01:41:12.760 subject for another stream. But I thought it was timely. 1467 01:41:12.800 --> 01:41:13.000 Man. 1468 01:41:13.039 --> 01:41:16.640 I hope people are. I mean, it's it's essential understanding 1469 01:41:16.720 --> 01:41:19.880 the total picture of the conflict. So I hope people 1470 01:41:19.880 --> 01:41:25.119 are getting something out of it. The Feedbackcine's good so far. 1471 01:41:25.920 --> 01:41:26.560 Yeah, I think the. 1472 01:41:29.039 --> 01:41:31.479 Yeah, I think the very first time we ever talked, 1473 01:41:31.520 --> 01:41:36.199 we talked about the spelling and changing narratives, and you. 1474 01:41:36.159 --> 01:41:39.319 Know, the narrative of this is. 1475 01:41:41.039 --> 01:41:46.560 Wrong. The narrative that people believe of the German bomb 1476 01:41:46.600 --> 01:41:51.119 program is wrong. So I don't see how anybody can 1477 01:41:52.439 --> 01:41:54.840 if one of the goals, if one of the goals 1478 01:41:54.960 --> 01:42:01.279 is to open people's eyes to World War two and 1479 01:42:01.359 --> 01:42:04.720 exactly what it was, I think there's no more important 1480 01:42:05.079 --> 01:42:12.479 there's no more important, uh subject, than a potential you 1481 01:42:12.479 --> 01:42:16.399 know bomb that you know, they oh, he would. 1482 01:42:16.199 --> 01:42:21.399 Have just dropped everywhere. No, I mean and and people too, 1483 01:42:21.439 --> 01:42:23.439 like I said, the important you know, I spent a 1484 01:42:23.439 --> 01:42:27.479 lot of time with game theory and like formal logic. 1485 01:42:27.520 --> 01:42:30.319 I mean it's like my background like educationally, but also 1486 01:42:30.359 --> 01:42:35.680 it uh, you know, the Cold War was so I 1487 01:42:35.680 --> 01:42:38.560 mean nuclear weapon Like the Cold War can only understood 1488 01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:41.880 within the context of the nuclear paradigm, you know, like 1489 01:42:41.960 --> 01:42:45.600 it was just it literally defined every aspect of it, 1490 01:42:45.720 --> 01:42:50.600 like military, political, philosophical, Like people can't get their minds 1491 01:42:50.640 --> 01:42:53.359 around really the idea that you know, in a different 1492 01:42:53.359 --> 01:42:58.960 strategic paradigm, let alone one in the twentieth century that 1493 01:42:59.119 --> 01:43:02.159 you know, nuclear weapons could have not been you know, 1494 01:43:02.199 --> 01:43:04.680 the kind of trump card the or like the key 1495 01:43:04.760 --> 01:43:08.840 to victory that oviated you know, all like lesser killing 1496 01:43:08.880 --> 01:43:11.760 technologies you know, and like I cannonize that enough. It's 1497 01:43:11.760 --> 01:43:15.319 like again like even people, I'm not any people have 1498 01:43:15.399 --> 01:43:18.199 got their own conceptual prejudices one or the other about 1499 01:43:18.199 --> 01:43:20.159 the Third Reich, Like it's not put that out of 1500 01:43:20.159 --> 01:43:24.720 your mind totally. Think it's really strategic terms about irrationality 1501 01:43:24.840 --> 01:43:27.319 of what Berlin had to accomplish in order to realize 1502 01:43:27.319 --> 01:43:29.279 it's war aims. And win the war. Like again, how 1503 01:43:29.279 --> 01:43:32.239 would an atomic bomb facilitate that? I mean, on the 1504 01:43:32.239 --> 01:43:36.239 one hand, like, yeah, it's better always to have like 1505 01:43:36.279 --> 01:43:41.159 potential firepower on hand. That's devastating, But it's not okay, 1506 01:43:41.279 --> 01:43:47.000 I mean, it's it's you know, it's not. Uh, it's 1507 01:43:47.039 --> 01:43:50.479 it's not like like the utility of these weapons is 1508 01:43:50.520 --> 01:43:55.560 not there's not a spectrum, a wide spectrum utility to them, 1509 01:43:55.880 --> 01:44:00.520 you know it. And I think people forget that, you know, 1510 01:44:00.560 --> 01:44:04.680 even people who are basically informed about things and you know, 1511 01:44:04.760 --> 01:44:09.600 conceptually literate. But yeah, all right, I'm rambling. Man. I won't, 1512 01:44:09.680 --> 01:44:12.880 I won't. I won't keep you any longer. But thanks 1513 01:44:12.920 --> 01:44:15.239 so much for hosting me. Man, I owe you a 1514 01:44:15.279 --> 01:44:18.880 lot with friends, and I appreciate being able to cover 1515 01:44:18.920 --> 01:44:22.239 these things. But I really really appreciate the chance to 1516 01:44:22.359 --> 01:44:24.920 appear on your program. Like believe that. 1517 01:44:25.359 --> 01:44:27.359 I'm very always You're always welcome. 1518 01:44:27.359 --> 01:44:29.359 All you have to do is contact me with the subject. 1519 01:44:29.359 --> 01:44:30.439 Then you know, we'll do it. 1520 01:44:30.479 --> 01:44:33.399 But before we do that, hit up some plugs and 1521 01:44:33.560 --> 01:44:34.800 uh we'll get out of here. 1522 01:44:35.159 --> 01:44:40.520 Yeah, legit. I'm always on substack and in September, I'll 1523 01:44:40.520 --> 01:44:43.880 be dropping season two of the podcast in the interim. 1524 01:44:44.159 --> 01:44:46.720 I'll keep dropping like one off content that you can 1525 01:44:46.800 --> 01:44:50.039 listen to, like the Nego Cloud interview and other stuff. 1526 01:44:50.640 --> 01:44:55.279 I promise. But in September, season two will drop, and 1527 01:44:55.520 --> 01:44:59.319 when it does, all all all other content, all other 1528 01:44:59.640 --> 01:45:05.600 podcas As content will be free. It's real Thomas seven 1529 01:45:05.680 --> 01:45:09.560 seven seven dot subsect dot com. Uh. You can find 1530 01:45:09.600 --> 01:45:13.479 me on the app formally known as Twitter. It's real 1531 01:45:14.159 --> 01:45:18.319 R capital R E A L underscore number seven h 1532 01:45:18.359 --> 01:45:23.640 O M A S seven seven seven. I'm on Telegram. 1533 01:45:23.760 --> 01:45:26.640 It's at Thomas Graham number seven h O M A 1534 01:45:26.680 --> 01:45:32.520 S seven seven seven Graham. Or no, it's Thomas. Yeah, no, 1535 01:45:32.680 --> 01:45:35.479 it's that's right. That's right. I'm not going c isle. 1536 01:45:35.520 --> 01:45:41.640 I'm just tired. And that's uh. The YouTube channel, there's 1537 01:45:41.680 --> 01:45:45.279 nothing there yet except a couple one off things, you know, 1538 01:45:45.359 --> 01:45:47.880 like an intro and you know, some stuff that I've 1539 01:45:47.880 --> 01:45:52.359 recorded with friends, like my dear friend Carrie. On my 1540 01:45:52.479 --> 01:45:59.880 YouTube channel, it's Thomas t V. That's uh. When I 1541 01:45:59.920 --> 01:46:01.319 go to Utah in a couple of weeks, it's to 1542 01:46:01.359 --> 01:46:04.760 begin shooting dedicated content for Thomas TV. So I'm excited 1543 01:46:04.760 --> 01:46:08.359 about that. You know, we're doing a lot more with 1544 01:46:08.439 --> 01:46:12.319 the brand, not just like sexing up the production values, 1545 01:46:12.880 --> 01:46:16.000 which I owe to my dear friend Rake and his team, 1546 01:46:16.119 --> 01:46:17.720 like literally, like I could not do any of this 1547 01:46:17.800 --> 01:46:19.479 stuff without them. They're the guys who do all like 1548 01:46:19.479 --> 01:46:22.239 the editing and stuff and make things like presentable, like 1549 01:46:22.359 --> 01:46:25.279 legit I'd be if it was just me, Like i'd 1550 01:46:25.319 --> 01:46:27.600 be like some like a hobo, like looking like he 1551 01:46:27.680 --> 01:46:30.520 was on Public Access and like nineteen eighty or something like, 1552 01:46:30.920 --> 01:46:33.479 I'd be like something from like yeah, it'd be like 1553 01:46:33.520 --> 01:46:36.680 something from like Public Access and like some alternate dimension 1554 01:46:36.760 --> 01:46:42.439 of shit. But uh, some keep that in mind that 1555 01:46:42.800 --> 01:46:48.000 they're the guys who really are owed props for anything 1556 01:46:48.039 --> 01:46:51.720 I'd do in this regard. But yeah, that's about where 1557 01:46:51.720 --> 01:46:54.960 we're at. I uh, I'm hoping to be able to 1558 01:46:55.039 --> 01:47:03.840 drop steel Storm three my early spring Nuremberg by summer, 1559 01:47:04.159 --> 01:47:05.840 and that's all I got for right. 1560 01:47:05.760 --> 01:47:10.479 Now until part three. Thank you, Thomas, Yeah, thank you for. 1561 01:47:12.119 --> 01:47:14.880 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanana Show. 1562 01:47:15.960 --> 01:47:19.119 I'm here with Thomas. How are you doing, Thomas, I'm 1563 01:47:19.119 --> 01:47:19.880 doing very well. 1564 01:47:20.039 --> 01:47:23.760 Thanks for hosting me again. I hope, I hope people 1565 01:47:23.800 --> 01:47:26.600 have been getting something out of this series. You know. 1566 01:47:26.680 --> 01:47:32.039 I'm I'm a I'm a historical writer, and I know 1567 01:47:32.119 --> 01:47:37.039 something about political theory, in the law and in formal logic, 1568 01:47:37.079 --> 01:47:40.479 but I'm not I'm not a scientist at all. I'm 1569 01:47:40.520 --> 01:47:43.000 not even like a layman who you know is is 1570 01:47:43.159 --> 01:47:46.239 just highly competent in science or something. So I I 1571 01:47:46.239 --> 01:47:48.560 hope I'm not embarrassing myself in the way I explain 1572 01:47:48.640 --> 01:47:52.000 some of these things. But I've gotten feedback. Like a 1573 01:47:52.039 --> 01:47:54.760 friend of ours who's a German dude who also has 1574 01:47:54.760 --> 01:47:56.800 a degree in physics, like told me that, like He's like, yeah, 1575 01:47:56.800 --> 01:47:58.520 if I'm proud of you for like not totally fucking 1576 01:47:58.520 --> 01:48:03.119 this up. That made me feel kind of good. Like 1577 01:48:03.640 --> 01:48:06.039 our German friends as well as like our physicist friends 1578 01:48:06.159 --> 01:48:11.359 generally don't pull any punches in that regard. So but today, 1579 01:48:12.000 --> 01:48:13.760 I mean, there's just a lot here. Okay, I mean, 1580 01:48:14.720 --> 01:48:19.600 but I think we'll maybe go one more episode just 1581 01:48:19.680 --> 01:48:22.800 as a you know, after this one. It's kind of 1582 01:48:22.800 --> 01:48:28.399 a bookend, and maybe field questions. But I'll explain what 1583 01:48:28.479 --> 01:48:33.920 I mean with the statement I'm about to issue forth 1584 01:48:35.359 --> 01:48:37.520 as we get into the meat of today's episode. But 1585 01:48:38.239 --> 01:48:41.439 you know, the German the German atomic bomb program such 1586 01:48:41.479 --> 01:48:43.439 that it such that there could even be said to 1587 01:48:43.520 --> 01:48:47.359 be one that existed. It was basically strangling Utero when 1588 01:48:47.399 --> 01:48:49.520 when the Vermacht was like stopping his tracks at the 1589 01:48:49.600 --> 01:48:52.199 gates of Moscow. Okay, I'll get into what I mean 1590 01:48:52.239 --> 01:48:59.359 by that as we move along. Okay, if nothing else, 1591 01:48:59.439 --> 01:49:03.800 you know, military exigencies and and and the long emergency 1592 01:49:03.880 --> 01:49:06.760 of of a of a long war, a prolonged war 1593 01:49:06.920 --> 01:49:11.840 which Germany cannot afford to wage, may rendered any any 1594 01:49:11.920 --> 01:49:16.600 kind of German version of Manhattan Project, you know, not feasible, 1595 01:49:16.720 --> 01:49:21.560 even if it was strategically sound as regards you know, 1596 01:49:21.720 --> 01:49:25.239 its impetus, you know what, it would it even resolve 1597 01:49:26.199 --> 01:49:32.319 Germany's military quagmire emergent military quagmire. But there's a lot 1598 01:49:32.720 --> 01:49:37.039 in between, you know, nineteen thirty nine and December nineteen 1599 01:49:37.039 --> 01:49:42.239 forty one. They still needs to be addressed. And the 1600 01:49:42.279 --> 01:49:47.039 person at Heisenberg features very prominently here. Okay, for those 1601 01:49:47.079 --> 01:49:50.760 who know, Heisenberg was not an experimental physicist. He was 1602 01:49:50.760 --> 01:49:54.520 a very much a theoretical physicist and frankly something of 1603 01:49:54.560 --> 01:50:00.359 a philosopher with theological interests. You know, he was not 1604 01:50:01.840 --> 01:50:04.560 he was not really the counterpart to Oppenheimer or something 1605 01:50:05.000 --> 01:50:06.239 you know, and I say that like in the most 1606 01:50:06.239 --> 01:50:08.800 praising terms. I think a guy like both Gang Smith 1607 01:50:08.920 --> 01:50:12.880 is kind of very much a descendant, the spiritual descendant 1608 01:50:13.640 --> 01:50:17.680 of Heisenberg. So the fact that Heisenberg came to be 1609 01:50:18.399 --> 01:50:23.800 you know what kind of helm the virus house research 1610 01:50:24.199 --> 01:50:27.439 and all attendant projects. I mean that tells you something too, 1611 01:50:27.640 --> 01:50:31.039 you know. I mean it's some and I'll expand upon 1612 01:50:31.119 --> 01:50:38.199 that with discrete facts and testimony, but that's something you 1613 01:50:38.399 --> 01:50:40.199 need to keep in mind. You know. It's just there's 1614 01:50:40.239 --> 01:50:45.720 a lot of connecting the peribial dots and the absence 1615 01:50:46.039 --> 01:50:50.960 of direct testimony or concrete evidence to point to in 1616 01:50:51.079 --> 01:50:54.039 order to you know, paint a picture of what this 1617 01:50:55.159 --> 01:50:58.560 of what this endeavor was, and you know what gave 1618 01:50:58.680 --> 01:51:04.399 rise to it and how it was not what was claimed, 1619 01:51:04.720 --> 01:51:06.920 but you know to what degree? To what? To what 1620 01:51:07.000 --> 01:51:10.680 degree it was? Uh, the people who claimed the German 1621 01:51:10.760 --> 01:51:13.960 atomic bond program was was was well underway and a 1622 01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:19.039 dedicated capacity. The degree to which that was propaganda deliberately 1623 01:51:19.079 --> 01:51:26.239 cultivated by interested parties contra. You know, people actually believing 1624 01:51:26.279 --> 01:51:28.079 this was the case owing to the not just the 1625 01:51:28.119 --> 01:51:30.760 fog of war, but you know, the kind of opaque 1626 01:51:30.840 --> 01:51:33.439 nature of of what was then you know, the new science, 1627 01:51:34.239 --> 01:51:36.920 you know, and and everything else. It's hard to say. 1628 01:51:37.119 --> 01:51:38.880 I think it depends on who we were talking about, 1629 01:51:39.239 --> 01:51:42.319 but we'll get into that too, particularly the views of 1630 01:51:42.359 --> 01:51:47.960 people like Stimson versus you know, those in you know, 1631 01:51:48.239 --> 01:51:50.079 I mean Stimpson was an outlier in the New Deal 1632 01:51:50.119 --> 01:51:52.680 administration anyway, but you know, he the view of him 1633 01:51:52.800 --> 01:52:00.439 versus you know people, uh who who people in the 1634 01:52:00.439 --> 01:52:06.520 administration who are most receptive to Einstein and Sax's claim. 1635 01:52:06.720 --> 01:52:08.640 I mean, there's a there was a there's a difference 1636 01:52:08.680 --> 01:52:15.000 in inconceptual horizon there. But I want to get into 1637 01:52:16.880 --> 01:52:20.119 we left off last time with the April twenty ninth, 1638 01:52:21.399 --> 01:52:24.119 I mean thirty nine conference, and as as we as 1639 01:52:24.119 --> 01:52:29.119 we got into, uh the focus of that discussion really 1640 01:52:29.319 --> 01:52:33.479 was the feasibility of a of a quote uranium engine, 1641 01:52:33.640 --> 01:52:38.600 you know, like we said such that these such such 1642 01:52:38.600 --> 01:52:44.439 that these discussions among this coterie that the War Office 1643 01:52:44.479 --> 01:52:48.760 had corralled had had it had a focus, and later 1644 01:52:48.880 --> 01:52:55.039 like such that there such that their experimental activities, you know, 1645 01:52:55.119 --> 01:52:59.439 had a discrete focus. It It was it was really 1646 01:52:59.479 --> 01:53:03.319 towards well we conceptually what we'd consider a nuclear reactor 1647 01:53:03.840 --> 01:53:09.560 and that becomes relevant, that becomes independently relevant as a 1648 01:53:09.560 --> 01:53:13.399 as time went on. We really relating to the weaponization 1649 01:53:13.520 --> 01:53:17.760 of of of of uranium two thirty five as we'll see, 1650 01:53:17.960 --> 01:53:26.239 but a few days prior, a guy named Neils Borr, 1651 01:53:27.279 --> 01:53:29.680 who was a Dane, but he was in some way 1652 01:53:29.760 --> 01:53:32.479 he had like an outsized impact on German physics, okay, 1653 01:53:32.520 --> 01:53:34.600 and he was very much like a mentor of Heisenberg 1654 01:53:34.600 --> 01:53:41.239 among other among other luminaries. He and uh a guy 1655 01:53:41.319 --> 01:53:44.600 named J. E. Wheeler, they published the American Physical Review, 1656 01:53:45.319 --> 01:53:47.600 which was read pretty much by everybody in the Western 1657 01:53:47.640 --> 01:53:51.319 world who's it all involved in physics even throughout the war, 1658 01:53:51.640 --> 01:53:58.880 you know, this endured it uh it uh it reiterated 1659 01:53:59.159 --> 01:54:02.680 the idea that uranium two thirty five had weapons potential. 1660 01:54:03.479 --> 01:54:07.920 You know, so this was even independent of any New 1661 01:54:07.920 --> 01:54:12.960 Deal propaganda, independent of any you know kind of anxieties 1662 01:54:13.239 --> 01:54:17.520 uh well founded or not within the British intelligence establishment, 1663 01:54:18.319 --> 01:54:20.800 like there were just like worldwide, there were people who 1664 01:54:20.800 --> 01:54:24.439 were arguably you know, like explendidly disinterested in the political 1665 01:54:24.479 --> 01:54:28.600 climate and the burgaining you know, battle lines who were 1666 01:54:28.640 --> 01:54:30.720 playing with this idea. You know, it was at least 1667 01:54:30.720 --> 01:54:35.439 on their radar. Okay, So the climate, the intellectual climate 1668 01:54:35.479 --> 01:54:38.840 into which everybody was sort of thrust who was taking 1669 01:54:38.840 --> 01:54:46.359 on a role in experimental physics and in any combatant 1670 01:54:46.399 --> 01:54:49.239 nation actual or potential you know, there was there was 1671 01:54:49.439 --> 01:54:52.159 there was this kind of subtext of you know, military 1672 01:54:52.159 --> 01:54:56.000 potentially a direct military potential here. Okay, So I mean 1673 01:54:56.079 --> 01:54:59.199 to be fair, like that's got to uh, that's got 1674 01:54:59.199 --> 01:55:04.359 to be accounted for Ada Han, who you know, who 1675 01:55:04.560 --> 01:55:08.199 was an experimental physicist and who did have trumendous clout, 1676 01:55:08.600 --> 01:55:11.399 uh just just just across the board, like not just 1677 01:55:11.520 --> 01:55:17.439 but it's particularly within the uh, within the committee in 1678 01:55:17.640 --> 01:55:21.960 uh Berlin. Uh. He said that any project essentially, you know, 1679 01:55:22.039 --> 01:55:28.920 try and cultivate uranium two thirty five, it it'd be 1680 01:55:29.000 --> 01:55:33.079 it'd be astronomically expensive anyway to present you know, just 1681 01:55:33.119 --> 01:55:44.840 insoluble difficulties. Professor Bagey, who was uh a pre eminent 1682 01:55:44.920 --> 01:55:47.119 researcher and he was kind of the top researcher who 1683 01:55:47.119 --> 01:55:49.439 was attached to Heisenberg in a direct capacity, like he 1684 01:55:49.520 --> 01:55:53.279 was literally his protege. He said, well, let's call it 1685 01:55:53.359 --> 01:55:57.680 Heisenberg himself. And you know, if if this is possible 1686 01:55:57.760 --> 01:56:00.399 or if this is just you know, a pipe dream, 1687 01:56:00.439 --> 01:56:02.840 not even the development of a bomb. Isn't that It's 1688 01:56:02.880 --> 01:56:06.119 not that's not the question on the table, just you know, uh, 1689 01:56:06.840 --> 01:56:10.640 the uh the you know, the but the the extraction 1690 01:56:10.800 --> 01:56:15.359 of light uranium isotope in appreciable quantities, you know, like 1691 01:56:15.399 --> 01:56:19.119 he if if this is possible and if it's feasible, 1692 01:56:19.680 --> 01:56:23.359 you know, uh within you know our present means you know, 1693 01:56:23.439 --> 01:56:26.560 he'd be the man who could uh who could you know, 1694 01:56:26.600 --> 01:56:33.520 sort of shed light on this. Now, heisenbergola universally respected. 1695 01:56:33.960 --> 01:56:37.880 Like again, there was a basic element of disdain for 1696 01:56:37.960 --> 01:56:46.399 theoretical physics among uh many of these experimental physicists, and 1697 01:56:46.439 --> 01:56:50.199 that very much that that verific of a parent when 1698 01:56:50.199 --> 01:56:54.640 Heisenberg kind of joined this, join this this this this 1699 01:56:54.720 --> 01:56:56.920 quorum not a qual I mean, it was anything but 1700 01:56:56.960 --> 01:57:02.119 a quorum as a coterie, you know. In that Uh, 1701 01:57:02.520 --> 01:57:05.399 there was a lot of there's there's a lot of 1702 01:57:06.079 --> 01:57:08.600 there's a lot of contrarianism for his own sake, uh, 1703 01:57:08.840 --> 01:57:11.319 kind of thrown up in these discussions, which I think 1704 01:57:11.399 --> 01:57:13.760 David Irving in his book makes that point. And he 1705 01:57:13.800 --> 01:57:16.039 had opportunity to you know, speak to some of the 1706 01:57:16.079 --> 01:57:19.520 men who actually were in attendance at these meetings, at 1707 01:57:19.600 --> 01:57:25.279 least in like a more than oblique capacity. The UH, 1708 01:57:25.720 --> 01:57:28.399 well was finally agreed upon, was basically that if there 1709 01:57:28.439 --> 01:57:33.199 was any if there was if there's any slight the 1710 01:57:33.439 --> 01:57:37.960 official statement what was decided, like the minutes of of 1711 01:57:38.680 --> 01:57:41.000 these kinds of like the collected minutes of these these 1712 01:57:41.039 --> 01:57:45.319 debates discussions was UH what Professor Geiger said, if there 1713 01:57:45.359 --> 01:57:47.399 was any if there was even the slightest chance of 1714 01:57:47.479 --> 01:57:51.600 liberating energy from the atomic nucleus, it was, you know, 1715 01:57:51.800 --> 01:57:53.600 in any of these experiments, that it had to be 1716 01:57:53.640 --> 01:57:59.319 followed up. Okay, the UH it was recommended that General Becker, 1717 01:57:59.680 --> 01:58:04.840 you know, the the Ornaments Department chief, UH, that that 1718 01:58:05.000 --> 01:58:09.640 dedicated to quote Nuclear Physics Research Group. The organized under 1719 01:58:09.680 --> 01:58:14.479 these auspices, and you know, like we talked about last time, 1720 01:58:14.760 --> 01:58:20.399 like ESA had an amicable relationship already with Becker and 1721 01:58:20.600 --> 01:58:22.640 UH so so it was it was it was. It 1722 01:58:22.680 --> 01:58:26.920 was made so for security reasons, and this too, I 1723 01:58:26.920 --> 01:58:32.479 think clouded perception of the Allies, at least in those 1724 01:58:32.520 --> 01:58:38.760 who were within military intelligence. For security reasons. The project 1725 01:58:38.920 --> 01:58:46.319 UH the language employed UH in documents relating to it, 1726 01:58:46.319 --> 01:58:51.000 it was all characterized as as research for the creation 1727 01:58:51.079 --> 01:58:56.520 of potential fuel sources for rocket propulsion. Okay, Like the 1728 01:58:56.560 --> 01:59:01.159 actual Reich rocket program was, it became, it came into 1729 01:59:01.159 --> 01:59:04.159 the auspices of of the s S eventually, you know. 1730 01:59:04.199 --> 01:59:06.640 That's why von Braun like actually was in was in 1731 01:59:07.239 --> 01:59:09.159 was in uniform in the s S, you know, like 1732 01:59:09.199 --> 01:59:13.479 he was, you know, you like, it was formally incorporated 1733 01:59:13.520 --> 01:59:19.239 into the organization and in a very top down way. 1734 01:59:21.720 --> 01:59:24.720 You know, the rocket program is an example of how 1735 01:59:25.279 --> 01:59:27.600 of everything that you know, the that that that the 1736 01:59:27.680 --> 01:59:32.359 virus house program wasn't you know. And I also believe 1737 01:59:33.840 --> 01:59:41.960 owing to the intrinsically uh military language of uh you know, 1738 01:59:42.039 --> 01:59:45.920 this kind of deliberate mischaracterization of the program as a 1739 01:59:46.000 --> 01:59:49.319 rocket program, I think that may have convinced people who 1740 01:59:49.399 --> 01:59:52.279 came across kind of scraps and and statements out of 1741 01:59:52.319 --> 01:59:54.800 the ear, you know, who were spying on the Third Reich. 1742 01:59:55.439 --> 01:59:59.720 I I think they just made they they axiomatically determined, like, 1743 02:00:00.079 --> 02:00:02.760 you know, well, this is this is a direct this 1744 02:00:02.840 --> 02:00:07.239 is a this is a direct military endeavor, you know, 1745 02:00:09.399 --> 02:00:15.119 and uh that that's not unreasonable, It's not unreasonable conclusion 1746 02:00:15.159 --> 02:00:18.800 to draw, especially if one understood how the German General 1747 02:00:18.840 --> 02:00:21.000 staff system work and kind of what the interplay was 1748 02:00:21.079 --> 02:00:25.279 between you know, technological research within what was nominally the 1749 02:00:25.279 --> 02:00:29.960 private sector, and you know, it's it's the ability of uh, 1750 02:00:30.279 --> 02:00:35.159 the military to capitalize on on these on these developments, 1751 02:00:35.760 --> 02:00:39.039 you know. But it's I think that's uh, I think 1752 02:00:39.039 --> 02:00:42.399 that's interesting. And it's also, uh it goes too like 1753 02:00:42.399 --> 02:00:45.560 we're priorities were you know, like kind of the people, 1754 02:00:45.680 --> 02:00:47.800 uh people in the Wehrmacht kind of like they viewed 1755 02:00:47.840 --> 02:00:51.239 as like the zenith kind of of of of vartech, 1756 02:00:52.600 --> 02:00:55.600 you know, was uh what was aerospace stuff. You know, 1757 02:00:55.640 --> 02:00:58.199 it's like with with with with rocketry obviously kind of 1758 02:00:58.199 --> 02:01:03.800 being the the absolute diseenth of of that. But the 1759 02:01:04.000 --> 02:01:13.039 uh it uh. What also happened was on a on 1760 02:01:13.039 --> 02:01:19.119 on September sixteenth, for the the Kurt Diebner, who he 1761 02:01:19.159 --> 02:01:23.920 talked about last time. He was appointed to lead at 1762 02:01:24.000 --> 02:01:27.159 least nominally in the Nuclear Physics Research Group under Ordnance 1763 02:01:27.199 --> 02:01:35.680 Department auspices. Doctor Bagge, who began keeping a diary for 1764 02:01:35.720 --> 02:01:37.119 the first time in his life, because I mean, I 1765 02:01:37.199 --> 02:01:40.640 think he realized, I'm sure he realized that whatever the 1766 02:01:40.680 --> 02:01:44.479 outcome of these endeavors, it was something you know, he 1767 02:01:44.560 --> 02:01:48.239 was participating in scientific history. You know as he was 1768 02:01:48.279 --> 02:01:53.920 being made. But on the UH he notes that on 1769 02:01:53.960 --> 02:02:00.319 September sixteenth, nineteen thirty nine, Diebner summoned him personally UH 1770 02:02:00.880 --> 02:02:04.960 to report the Army Ordnance Department. He writes, participating the 1771 02:02:05.279 --> 02:02:09.039 quote conference about an important matter, then returned to Leipzig. 1772 02:02:11.479 --> 02:02:15.800 This was the last from this point on the reason 1773 02:02:15.840 --> 02:02:21.680 why he uses that UH, that deliberately minimalist language. Any 1774 02:02:21.720 --> 02:02:24.880 reference to the possibilities of uranium for any any of 1775 02:02:25.000 --> 02:02:31.720 any application, reactors, UH, super bombs, anything was considered was 1776 02:02:31.720 --> 02:02:35.000 classified as a state secret, okay, And all all references 1777 02:02:35.000 --> 02:02:38.680 the possibilities of uranium and energy derived from uranium was 1778 02:02:38.680 --> 02:02:43.880 was actively suppressed, okay the first instance. And again this 1779 02:02:43.960 --> 02:02:49.720 goes to show you the kind of frosty relationship between 1780 02:02:50.199 --> 02:02:52.600 the private sector and the army in this regard, you know, 1781 02:02:52.880 --> 02:02:57.079 kind of splendidly contrary the situation is existed between the 1782 02:02:57.119 --> 02:03:03.720 aviation industry and UH, the military establishment, which was positively incestuous. 1783 02:03:04.800 --> 02:03:09.000 A Semens research chemist, you know, a Semen research physicists. 1784 02:03:09.000 --> 02:03:13.000 You know. Semens was a huge conglomerate, you know, like 1785 02:03:13.079 --> 02:03:17.119 they uh, they're basically insinuated everything on the cutting edge 1786 02:03:17.119 --> 02:03:21.319 of of UH of applied sciences, you know, as related 1787 02:03:21.359 --> 02:03:26.479 to industry and everything else. The UH he submitted in 1788 02:03:26.479 --> 02:03:31.279 an article UH to the main like German news agency. 1789 02:03:32.880 --> 02:03:37.399 It contained a detailed description of UH, you know, like 1790 02:03:37.439 --> 02:03:39.960 a kind of like the atomic science of the day, 1791 02:03:40.199 --> 02:03:42.840 you know, and it's it's supposed, you know, like marvelous 1792 02:03:42.880 --> 02:03:49.199 potential for purposes civilian and military. And it refers specifically 1793 02:03:49.199 --> 02:03:54.079 of the power contained in the uranium nucleus. And it said, quote, 1794 02:03:54.680 --> 02:03:57.720 it potentially contained enough to blast the ruins of a 1795 02:03:57.720 --> 02:04:00.840 giant city up into the stratosphere. What terrific powers of 1796 02:04:00.880 --> 02:04:03.359 annihilation and erfs were have It could fight an enemy 1797 02:04:03.359 --> 02:04:08.600 with bombs like these end quote. And the writer called 1798 02:04:08.960 --> 02:04:13.359 UH and knowing certain terms or increased experiments UH with 1799 02:04:13.479 --> 02:04:20.680 masses of uranium, which again the Reich had access to 1800 02:04:20.680 --> 02:04:27.159 in Czechoslovakia. There were uranium reserves in Portugal too, and 1801 02:04:28.119 --> 02:04:31.119 later on late late, very late in the war, even 1802 02:04:32.600 --> 02:04:36.800 the British work convinced that this played into some of 1803 02:04:36.800 --> 02:04:38.680 the kind of you know, the reasons why like in 1804 02:04:38.720 --> 02:04:43.720 their view, UH, the fear sort of treated UH Franco 1805 02:04:43.760 --> 02:04:46.840 with kid gloves. The majority of these the majority of 1806 02:04:46.880 --> 02:04:51.479 these resources were in Portugal. But obviously you know it 1807 02:04:51.479 --> 02:04:55.680 it uh that that the key to the uh to 1808 02:04:55.800 --> 02:04:58.680 the peninsula was Ibran peninsula, Spain. But that's something of 1809 02:04:58.680 --> 02:05:06.840 a tangent. But the uh, the this this, this article 1810 02:05:06.880 --> 02:05:10.239 was totally suppressed, and UH the author was warned like 1811 02:05:10.600 --> 02:05:17.199 nothing of this nature can appear in print. When uh 1812 02:05:17.680 --> 02:05:23.079 there was a papers on general atomic research were allowed, 1813 02:05:24.159 --> 02:05:30.119 including uh directly related to you know, experience involving uranium 1814 02:05:31.439 --> 02:05:36.680 and uh including the light isotope, but uh, no direct 1815 02:05:36.720 --> 02:05:39.960 mention of their context was to be made, and certainly 1816 02:05:40.000 --> 02:05:44.000 not any even speculative suggestion about you know, their employment 1817 02:05:44.079 --> 02:05:47.479 and weapons programs. Now we can look at that in 1818 02:05:47.520 --> 02:05:49.760 a number of ways, you know, like it's like we 1819 02:05:49.840 --> 02:05:57.119 talked about before, and I think you raised when you're 1820 02:05:57.119 --> 02:06:01.079 looking ahead. I mean, the Germans were actively at war 1821 02:06:01.119 --> 02:06:03.239 by this point. This was the you know, the two 1822 02:06:03.239 --> 02:06:07.439 weeks prior the United Kingdom in France and declared law 1823 02:06:07.520 --> 02:06:12.600 in Germany. But even at even at nominal peace, you know, 1824 02:06:12.640 --> 02:06:17.720 in a strategic landscape such that Germany was situated. You know, 1825 02:06:17.760 --> 02:06:21.039 the way, you've got to be careful with what you 1826 02:06:21.079 --> 02:06:25.399 introduced into the stream of information. You gotta be careful 1827 02:06:25.600 --> 02:06:31.760 about the disinformation you insinuate, and probably it was in 1828 02:06:31.800 --> 02:06:36.159 the minds of plenty of people that the last thing 1829 02:06:36.239 --> 02:06:40.479 that the right and needed was uh, you know, the 1830 02:06:40.520 --> 02:06:42.960 new dealers in the British being able to seize upon 1831 02:06:43.079 --> 02:06:46.560 statements by top scientists that Germany is working on super weapons. 1832 02:06:47.239 --> 02:06:51.000 You know, Hitler especially was very consent of this, like 1833 02:06:51.039 --> 02:06:56.800 so is Gerbels and that uh that there's there's there's 1834 02:06:56.800 --> 02:07:02.800 a very interesting give and take around both men's respective 1835 02:07:02.880 --> 02:07:07.239 ideas on the role of you know, media at war 1836 02:07:07.680 --> 02:07:11.800 and as a political apparatus. But my point is that 1837 02:07:11.880 --> 02:07:14.039 it's not it's not just like prema fashion evidence that 1838 02:07:14.119 --> 02:07:18.640 oh Berlin demanded this be suppressed. They obviously were, you know, 1839 02:07:19.159 --> 02:07:21.800 this was their goal was to you know, do exactly 1840 02:07:21.840 --> 02:07:26.680 that what was suggested in the article by the Siemens physicists. 1841 02:07:26.720 --> 02:07:29.039 You know, it's quite a bit more nuanced because I've 1842 02:07:29.199 --> 02:07:36.319 run across we're a very basic treatments of that anecdote 1843 02:07:36.600 --> 02:07:46.760 that you know, profit precisely that sine conclusion the uh. Now, 1844 02:07:48.640 --> 02:07:55.680 one of the problems faced whatever the state of applied 1845 02:07:55.720 --> 02:08:00.000 research utilizing uranium two thirty five by the German scientists 1846 02:08:00.199 --> 02:08:08.119 was you know, whether whether as a dedicated weapons program 1847 02:08:08.239 --> 02:08:12.960 or just as you know, I'm trying to identify what 1848 02:08:13.199 --> 02:08:21.520 potentiality existed utilizing these you know, these these this element 1849 02:08:21.680 --> 02:08:24.279 specifically uranium thre thirty five is an energy source like whatever, 1850 02:08:24.319 --> 02:08:30.000 whatever the whatever the ultimate goal was, there was a 1851 02:08:31.000 --> 02:08:34.199 there there's a problem with, uh, there's a problem with 1852 02:08:34.239 --> 02:08:40.600 isolating uranium two thirty five and cultivating it. Okay, and uh, 1853 02:08:41.359 --> 02:08:45.000 this is such was the you know they're from there 1854 02:08:45.199 --> 02:08:50.319 from whence emerges the concern about you know, it just 1855 02:08:50.359 --> 02:08:53.720 being a cost prohibitive affair, which makes it, you know, 1856 02:08:53.800 --> 02:09:03.479 functionally useless, particularly as a a military a military endeavor. 1857 02:09:05.439 --> 02:09:14.800 The UH September nine, the second Conference of the Nuclear 1858 02:09:14.840 --> 02:09:19.840 Physicists at the Ordnance Department was held. The subject of 1859 02:09:19.880 --> 02:09:25.479 that conference was specifically means of extracting energy from the 1860 02:09:25.560 --> 02:09:31.359 uranium nucleus, either in either controlled amounts you know, as 1861 02:09:31.399 --> 02:09:37.880 would facilitate a reactor or uranium furnace, or or in 1862 02:09:37.920 --> 02:09:46.960 the uncontrolled chain reaction reactive violence of an explosion. Okay, 1863 02:09:47.760 --> 02:09:54.199 the first, the first accounlisting the first would would involve 1864 02:09:54.279 --> 02:09:57.159 mixing the uranium with some substance caple of literally slowing 1865 02:09:57.199 --> 02:10:00.760 down the high energy fast neutron is admitted during the 1866 02:10:00.760 --> 02:10:07.600 fission process without absorbing them. For technical reasons I don't 1867 02:10:07.680 --> 02:10:11.960 quite understand. Neutrons of a certain energy band are particularly 1868 02:10:12.000 --> 02:10:18.039 prone to capture by uranium. So for them not to 1869 02:10:18.079 --> 02:10:24.399 be lost, uh, they these these these fishing neutrons had 1870 02:10:24.399 --> 02:10:27.680 to be had to be rapidly slowed down by some 1871 02:10:27.760 --> 02:10:31.399 kind of breaking substance or in science scientific language like 1872 02:10:31.479 --> 02:10:43.520 moderating elements or moderator. Okay, the uh The second uh 1873 02:10:43.920 --> 02:10:48.720 them possibility was that if if, if, if, that's gonna 1874 02:10:48.720 --> 02:10:51.279 be made to utilize this as an explosive, you know, 1875 02:10:51.399 --> 02:10:56.399 if a super bomb was in fact possible. You know. 1876 02:10:56.520 --> 02:11:00.880 The uh it was the rare I hope that was 1877 02:11:00.920 --> 02:11:03.960 needed to fish in with thermal neutrons. Okay, so how 1878 02:11:03.960 --> 02:11:05.800 do you how do you how do you get the 1879 02:11:06.000 --> 02:11:07.600 how do you get the uranium two three, five that 1880 02:11:07.640 --> 02:11:15.600 you need? You know? In the case of the first question, 1881 02:11:17.439 --> 02:11:22.039 a professor Harvik he discussed the design of the uranium 1882 02:11:22.079 --> 02:11:27.279 reactor to solve both problems. Okay. He had a colleague 1883 02:11:27.359 --> 02:11:29.760 named doctor Hans Seuss, not doctor Seuss, the guy who 1884 02:11:29.800 --> 02:11:31.199 wrote like the cat in the head, Like this guy 1885 02:11:31.279 --> 02:11:33.319 is like an actual like doctor named Seuss like take 1886 02:11:33.319 --> 02:11:35.840 from that way you will. I know, some dick is 1887 02:11:35.840 --> 02:11:38.680 gonna mention starability, sneeches or something like. It's not about that, 1888 02:11:41.159 --> 02:11:46.119 Sue said, proposed that heavy water was uh, it was 1889 02:11:46.119 --> 02:11:51.399 was to be used in the in the UH as 1890 02:11:51.479 --> 02:11:56.439 as as as as the moderating element. Okay, what is 1891 02:11:56.479 --> 02:12:01.119 heavy water. It's a form of water. Obviously, we whose 1892 02:12:01.199 --> 02:12:06.199 hydrogen atoms are all dueterium, also known as heavy hydrogen, 1893 02:12:07.039 --> 02:12:09.760 rather than the common hydrogen isotope that makes it most 1894 02:12:09.760 --> 02:12:14.439 of the hydrogen and normal water. The presence of heavy 1895 02:12:14.600 --> 02:12:18.720 of heavier hydrogen, the heavier hydrogen isotope, it gives the 1896 02:12:18.720 --> 02:12:23.279 water different nuclear properties, and the increase in mass alters 1897 02:12:23.319 --> 02:12:27.359 the uh the physical and chemical properties as relates to 1898 02:12:27.399 --> 02:12:36.319 normal water. Okay. Now, so as this research went on, 1899 02:12:36.359 --> 02:12:39.520 in other words, you know, kind of like the challenges 1900 02:12:39.640 --> 02:12:41.399 like stacked up and up and up, and as I'm 1901 02:12:41.399 --> 02:12:47.960 sure you've gleaned, basically, uh, what became clear according to 1902 02:12:47.960 --> 02:12:50.920 the path the course of German research, and America was 1903 02:12:50.960 --> 02:12:55.880 able to avoid this entirely owing to plutonium. And we'll 1904 02:12:55.880 --> 02:12:58.319 get into that briefly if there's time or if people 1905 02:12:58.359 --> 02:13:01.359 are interested. But basically, like when it came clear of 1906 02:13:01.399 --> 02:13:04.199 the second conference, what was being floated is that, well, 1907 02:13:04.239 --> 02:13:06.000 it's not a question of do we build a bomb 1908 02:13:06.039 --> 02:13:07.960 or do we build a reactor or not not even 1909 02:13:08.000 --> 02:13:10.399 dew we but like what what's the potential here? Is 1910 02:13:10.439 --> 02:13:12.079 that if you want, if you want to do anything 1911 02:13:12.359 --> 02:13:15.840 like the latter, you you have to develop the former anyway, Okay, 1912 02:13:16.000 --> 02:13:18.239 something this is just becoming like who's going to pay 1913 02:13:18.239 --> 02:13:21.880 for all this when this may not even be possible 1914 02:13:21.960 --> 02:13:26.399 and we may not even have access to the uranium 1915 02:13:26.880 --> 02:13:32.520 uranium pile reserves that we need in order to accomplish it. 1916 02:13:34.760 --> 02:13:47.920 The Heisenberg Enter Heisenberg he was commissioned specifically to investigate 1917 02:13:47.960 --> 02:13:51.560 theoretically whether a chain reaction in uranium was possible given 1918 02:13:51.600 --> 02:13:58.000 the known UH properties of of of neutron fusion and 1919 02:13:58.119 --> 02:14:08.239 uranium fission and the characteristics there. And over time, this 1920 02:14:08.279 --> 02:14:11.119 is pre nineteen forty one. After ninety forty one, things changed. 1921 02:14:11.239 --> 02:14:16.000 Reasons we'll get into that kind of became the focus 1922 02:14:16.000 --> 02:14:17.399 of such that they're gonna be said to be like 1923 02:14:17.439 --> 02:14:24.720 a dedicated focus towards a uh A directly military application. Okay. 1924 02:14:24.800 --> 02:14:28.600 I think this is when discussions corral discreetly around the 1925 02:14:28.600 --> 02:14:34.079 potential of an atomic bomb, okay, within German physics quarters 1926 02:14:34.079 --> 02:14:38.159 generally and specifically within this Ordnance department coterie of great 1927 02:14:38.159 --> 02:14:44.960 physics minds. Okay. And partly yeah, obviously because partly like 1928 02:14:45.000 --> 02:14:47.760 that's something that you know, the Wehrmacht needed to know 1929 02:14:47.840 --> 02:14:50.600 about if this was possible, you know, owing to the 1930 02:14:50.640 --> 02:14:53.800 fact that Germany was now at war. But also I mean, 1931 02:14:53.960 --> 02:14:59.319 if that's possible, if you know, basically like it's you know, 1932 02:14:59.399 --> 02:15:05.920 if if there's potential for you know, energy release at all, 1933 02:15:06.199 --> 02:15:08.520 you know, like the most kind of the most kind 1934 02:15:08.560 --> 02:15:12.600 of concrete way you know, to understand that in experimental 1935 02:15:12.680 --> 02:15:14.880 terms is to determine if you know, like an explosive 1936 02:15:14.960 --> 02:15:18.960 chain reaction can be cultivated. Okay. I think that must 1937 02:15:19.000 --> 02:15:22.159 be accounted for and based upon Heisenberg's own notes, like 1938 02:15:22.159 --> 02:15:24.600 I'm talking about like his personal like opinion work product 1939 02:15:24.600 --> 02:15:28.000 that was you know, not for anybody else's eyes. This 1940 02:15:28.119 --> 02:15:33.399 seems to be the case because he never once talks 1941 02:15:33.439 --> 02:15:35.439 about you know, I mean, first of all, there was 1942 02:15:35.479 --> 02:15:39.520 his reactions when he was in captivity to the you know, 1943 02:15:39.560 --> 02:15:42.520 to the hero seem in Nagasaki texts, but also like 1944 02:15:42.560 --> 02:15:44.800 in his own I say, opinion work products. It wasn't 1945 02:15:44.800 --> 02:15:47.239 a proper diary. You know, he never wants to write, 1946 02:15:47.279 --> 02:15:49.039 you know, some of the effect of you know, like 1947 02:15:49.560 --> 02:15:52.600 this we're we're working towards development of a bomb. I mean, 1948 02:15:52.600 --> 02:15:54.920 he writes a lot and he and he raised issues, 1949 02:15:55.039 --> 02:16:01.119 uh with with colleagues about you know, the reality of 1950 02:16:01.119 --> 02:16:05.600 of of this research for various you know, in various capacities. 1951 02:16:05.640 --> 02:16:10.199 But number once does want to get the idea that 1952 02:16:10.520 --> 02:16:13.279 you know, he saw himself as insinuated into some sort 1953 02:16:13.319 --> 02:16:20.600 of like German Manhattan project. The uh around the same time, uh, 1954 02:16:21.119 --> 02:16:25.840 the War Office somewhat abruptly, uh, they took over the 1955 02:16:25.840 --> 02:16:28.600 they took over the building on the camps of the 1956 02:16:28.640 --> 02:16:34.440 Kaiservillehelm Institute of Physics. Okay, because it had it had 1957 02:16:34.440 --> 02:16:39.799 the best equipment for for for applied atomic research, probably 1958 02:16:40.680 --> 02:16:46.399 probably in Europe, definitely within Germany. All uh, all scientists 1959 02:16:46.440 --> 02:16:52.840 participating in you know, the uh, the War Office project, 1960 02:16:53.280 --> 02:16:56.799 uh were they they were they were asked to transfer 1961 02:16:56.840 --> 02:17:00.000 this one central institute, you know, so that like they 1962 02:17:00.000 --> 02:17:03.799 basically like all hands to be on deck under one roof. 1963 02:17:05.799 --> 02:17:08.600 This is this is absolutely necessary, Okay, especially we're talking 1964 02:17:08.600 --> 02:17:15.719 about this kind of advanced research. The problem is these 1965 02:17:15.760 --> 02:17:19.600 men all had uh you know, these weren't military men 1966 02:17:19.680 --> 02:17:23.280 to a man, they were ah, you know, civilian researchers. 1967 02:17:24.000 --> 02:17:28.520 They had egos. Uh. They they were all, you know, 1968 02:17:28.719 --> 02:17:31.159 kind of the kingfish of the pond. They were situated 1969 02:17:31.200 --> 02:17:34.479 at in their respective institutions. But it's also you know, 1970 02:17:34.559 --> 02:17:35.959 some of these guys were young, but a lot of 1971 02:17:35.959 --> 02:17:38.840 them weren't. You know, It's like they people become very 1972 02:17:38.840 --> 02:17:41.959 attached their research, particularly men I'd have to imagine a 1973 02:17:42.040 --> 02:17:44.879 brilliant intellect. You know, they didn't want to They didn't 1974 02:17:44.879 --> 02:17:46.680 want to be part of a team. I mean, who 1975 02:17:46.680 --> 02:17:51.280 the hell does you know, like in that capacity. So 1976 02:17:51.600 --> 02:17:57.360 uh most almost most of them, uh like almost all 1977 02:17:57.360 --> 02:18:01.479 of them objected, and many of them just declined. They 1978 02:18:01.600 --> 02:18:04.120 just declined, what amount of do a direct order? Okay? 1979 02:18:04.159 --> 02:18:07.079 But it's like the cachet that these men had was, 1980 02:18:07.200 --> 02:18:11.040 you know, you cannot you can't, you can't replace nuclear physicists, okay. 1981 02:18:11.120 --> 02:18:17.879 And like it's the uh who was corralled there uh 1982 02:18:18.079 --> 02:18:22.079 at the Berlin Dalum Uh the kinds of Vellam institute 1983 02:18:23.319 --> 02:18:32.719 like Weisiker, Vitz, Bob Borman, Fisher and Heisenberg was often present. 1984 02:18:34.280 --> 02:18:37.399 So I mean there was like a core uh, there 1985 02:18:37.399 --> 02:18:39.040 there was, there was there there was a core like 1986 02:18:39.120 --> 02:18:45.920 working group that did exactly what was what was directed. 1987 02:18:46.639 --> 02:18:51.840 But it indicated a real you know, it indicated a 1988 02:18:51.879 --> 02:18:56.360 real lack of of concrete focus and kind of top 1989 02:18:56.399 --> 02:19:05.319 down discipline towards a directed goal, you know. And that's uh, 1990 02:19:05.760 --> 02:19:10.760 that's I think that's more symptomatic than causitive. I mean 1991 02:19:10.760 --> 02:19:14.639 it's not you know, it's it's not it's That's important 1992 02:19:14.639 --> 02:19:17.920 to understand too, is that, you know, when we're not 1993 02:19:17.959 --> 02:19:22.280 talking about you know, a true German atomic bomb project, 1994 02:19:22.360 --> 02:19:29.920 but that was sabotaged by outside egos and eccentricities. It's uh. 1995 02:19:30.440 --> 02:19:32.840 And I want the second key takeaway too, is that 1996 02:19:33.559 --> 02:19:35.520 there's this there's this idea that you know, there was 1997 02:19:35.559 --> 02:19:38.239 some like brain drain in Germany because like you know, 1998 02:19:38.280 --> 02:19:41.079 all the brilliant physicists were Jewish like and got chased out. 1999 02:19:41.120 --> 02:19:44.440 That's not true at all. Heisenberg probably was like the 2000 02:19:44.520 --> 02:19:47.840 leading physics mind like on this planet, you know, and uh, 2001 02:19:48.040 --> 02:19:51.319 you know Weisigerwitz, Bob is Borman. I mean, all these 2002 02:19:51.319 --> 02:19:55.360 guys like they were boggy dee neer like they they're 2003 02:19:55.360 --> 02:19:59.120 at the top of their game. And frankly, you know, 2004 02:19:59.360 --> 02:20:02.959 they weren't. None of these guys were like party men 2005 02:20:03.440 --> 02:20:06.959 and were dedicated national socialists, but they weren't about to 2006 02:20:07.000 --> 02:20:10.440 reject their father land. Whige frankly had done tremendous things 2007 02:20:10.479 --> 02:20:14.000 for them in terms of facilitating their research in all 2008 02:20:14.079 --> 02:20:19.479 kinds of ways, and you know, providing them with you know, 2009 02:20:19.559 --> 02:20:24.719 not just the material means, but the kind of social 2010 02:20:24.799 --> 02:20:28.959 capital and and and structural resources to you know, to 2011 02:20:29.040 --> 02:20:35.280 practice there there you know, there their uh, their experiments 2012 02:20:35.319 --> 02:20:37.559 and everything else. Or or in Heisenberger's case, you know, 2013 02:20:37.639 --> 02:20:42.559 like there was really probably in uh probably in France 2014 02:20:42.600 --> 02:20:45.319 and probably in in in like the Nordic countries. I mean, 2015 02:20:45.360 --> 02:20:47.479 he would have been like a luminary, but it you know, 2016 02:20:47.559 --> 02:20:53.399 he I mean Germany was Germany was uh what was 2017 02:20:53.399 --> 02:20:55.559 was was was was the center man, it was the 2018 02:20:56.879 --> 02:21:02.600 it was the actual pivot of h of scientific research 2019 02:21:02.639 --> 02:21:07.360 and endeavor in Europe. That can't be denied, you know, 2020 02:21:07.399 --> 02:21:13.280 and like the that's also uh, there was a disadvantage 2021 02:21:13.319 --> 02:21:20.879 here because uh Maut talk uh but his uh one 2022 02:21:20.959 --> 02:21:23.319 one of the you know, one of the one of 2023 02:21:23.319 --> 02:21:26.680 the researchers. He said I know in certain terms that 2024 02:21:28.319 --> 02:21:31.319 you know, he was delighted to be assigned this project 2025 02:21:31.399 --> 02:21:35.479 because you know, he could continue with atomic research and 2026 02:21:35.520 --> 02:21:38.120 his young colleagues, who we thought had great potential. He said, 2027 02:21:38.159 --> 02:21:40.440 we could protect them from getting called up to the draft. 2028 02:21:40.840 --> 02:21:42.959 You know, we could continue our scientific research in a 2029 02:21:43.000 --> 02:21:45.200 matter which we were accustomed like whether other people had 2030 02:21:45.200 --> 02:21:48.399 to tighten their belts, you know, other other young guys, 2031 02:21:48.600 --> 02:21:53.280 you know, who had a bright future and whatever career field. 2032 02:21:53.559 --> 02:21:56.639 You know, we're having to go fight, you know, for 2033 02:21:56.680 --> 02:21:59.799 the fatherland. You know. He's like, we were basically unmolested, 2034 02:22:00.399 --> 02:22:03.440 you know, So, I mean that's that's totally different, totally 2035 02:22:03.479 --> 02:22:07.159 of an idea or sensibility. That was the case with 2036 02:22:07.200 --> 02:22:10.639 the Manhattan product scientists and in the UK man like 2037 02:22:11.559 --> 02:22:15.600 there was uh the uh you know, there was like 2038 02:22:15.639 --> 02:22:19.200 we talked about, you know, Churchill had very uh he 2039 02:22:19.520 --> 02:22:21.200 in his in the and his sponsors. I mean they 2040 02:22:21.280 --> 02:22:25.399 re effectively you know, kind of kind of drown out 2041 02:22:25.639 --> 02:22:28.319 dissident voices as respect to the war effort, you know, 2042 02:22:28.440 --> 02:22:32.399 and it had becomes something of a career killer, and 2043 02:22:32.520 --> 02:22:36.079 especially in university life, which frankly, you know, was there 2044 02:22:36.159 --> 02:22:40.639 was a lot of Jewish influence there. You know, these 2045 02:22:40.680 --> 02:22:43.680 these uh, these guys in the UK or the counterparts 2046 02:22:44.200 --> 02:22:47.600 you know, to the UH to the Virus House UH 2047 02:22:47.840 --> 02:22:51.120 team as well as the Manhattan Project team. You know, 2048 02:22:51.159 --> 02:22:53.799 they they were very much, uh, they were very much 2049 02:22:53.799 --> 02:22:58.360 working in a dedicated capacity after nineteen forty one to 2050 02:22:58.479 --> 02:23:01.440 weaponize atomic energy to be turned against Germany. And they 2051 02:23:01.440 --> 02:23:03.879 had no qualms with this at all, you know. I 2052 02:23:03.879 --> 02:23:06.520 mean it wasn't even a question of qualms with the Germans. 2053 02:23:06.639 --> 02:23:08.440 This wasn't even on the radar, you know. I mean, 2054 02:23:08.440 --> 02:23:12.120 I can't eemhacize that enough. And if this was in 2055 02:23:12.120 --> 02:23:16.079 the military's mind, which I don't think it could have been, 2056 02:23:16.159 --> 02:23:19.399 because I mean they that the men who could conceptualize 2057 02:23:19.440 --> 02:23:24.000 these things, we're all you know in in academ i. 2058 02:23:24.399 --> 02:23:25.559 You know, if you if you're if the men who 2059 02:23:25.559 --> 02:23:31.399 can actually perform the experiments as required to facilitate the 2060 02:23:31.440 --> 02:23:34.520 engineering of such devices as will be coveted by the 2061 02:23:34.600 --> 02:23:36.559 arn't forces. I mean, if you can't, you can't make 2062 02:23:36.600 --> 02:23:42.040 them do that. I mean you're you're pissing into the wind. Uh. No, 2063 02:23:44.120 --> 02:23:50.319 what changed in nineteen forty one the Germans. Everything changed 2064 02:23:50.360 --> 02:23:55.280 in December, but before that, in July nineteen forty one. 2065 02:23:57.959 --> 02:24:02.280 The Ministry of Aircraft Production, which has something of an 2066 02:24:02.319 --> 02:24:07.159 outsized role in the UH. In what we can think 2067 02:24:07.200 --> 02:24:09.680 of is kind of like the Churchill Defense Establishment or 2068 02:24:09.760 --> 02:24:13.600 like you know, arms establishment, I mean for obvious reasons, 2069 02:24:13.760 --> 02:24:17.559 you know, I mean and UH, I mean the UK 2070 02:24:17.719 --> 02:24:20.280 realized early on and it hit a transition to UH, 2071 02:24:21.399 --> 02:24:24.559 a major make transition to a major air power. Otherwise, 2072 02:24:24.879 --> 02:24:26.559 you know, like the Royal Navy would only be as 2073 02:24:26.600 --> 02:24:30.319 dominant as a as A as the Royal Air Force 2074 02:24:30.479 --> 02:24:35.040 could be to defendant. So they so they so the 2075 02:24:35.079 --> 02:24:38.600 air mindustry and all of its attendant kind of appendages 2076 02:24:38.920 --> 02:24:46.000 UH developed a lot of clout. There was a special 2077 02:24:46.040 --> 02:24:53.840 committee appointed UH to research UH the UH the potential 2078 02:24:53.959 --> 02:25:00.959 of atomic energy. Okay, it can alluted that and effective 2079 02:25:01.040 --> 02:25:08.399 uranium bomb and again uranium out until UH, until American 2080 02:25:08.840 --> 02:25:11.440 research became kind of known to the world, like after 2081 02:25:11.920 --> 02:25:17.399 forty five in a complete capacity. Everybody's you know, uranium 2082 02:25:17.520 --> 02:25:20.360 was what everybody thought of when they thought of weapons potential. 2083 02:25:21.959 --> 02:25:29.559 The UH. This UH, the Aircraft Production Committee's report was 2084 02:25:29.600 --> 02:25:32.719 that about twenty five pounds of uranium two thirty five 2085 02:25:36.360 --> 02:25:39.120 the yield could be equivalent to about each inndred tons 2086 02:25:39.120 --> 02:25:44.719 of TNT and UH the committee. The committee's conclusion was 2087 02:25:44.719 --> 02:25:52.479 that Germany, having a taken steps to cultivate heavy water, 2088 02:25:55.079 --> 02:25:59.120 coupled with uh, you know, their uh, their increase in 2089 02:25:59.799 --> 02:26:03.840 my ding of uranium war within uh you know, they 2090 02:26:04.000 --> 02:26:10.000 newly that they newly gained access to in what was Czechoslovakia, 2091 02:26:12.760 --> 02:26:17.719 that it's obvious that you know, uh, even you know 2092 02:26:17.760 --> 02:26:20.200 they they're the state of Germany is and that they're 2093 02:26:20.200 --> 02:26:22.520 not they're not looking to utilize this for peaceful purposes. 2094 02:26:22.760 --> 02:26:25.760 You know. The only immediate benefit to the German Reich 2095 02:26:26.079 --> 02:26:31.159 of finding ways to release the energy contained there in 2096 02:26:31.639 --> 02:26:35.920 would be you know, in a weaponized capacity. I think 2097 02:26:35.959 --> 02:26:38.680 by this point, I think the British probably believed this. 2098 02:26:39.520 --> 02:26:41.040 I mean, who the hell knows. I mean, like we 2099 02:26:41.159 --> 02:26:49.399 talked about these guys were zealous anyway, but considering that, 2100 02:26:53.120 --> 02:26:58.120 you know, uh, there was far less known. I mean, 2101 02:26:58.159 --> 02:26:59.959 bring that some top signed is, but there's far less 2102 02:27:00.079 --> 02:27:02.280 known there than it was known in America, you know, 2103 02:27:02.479 --> 02:27:10.000 about what the kind of real world application of these 2104 02:27:10.040 --> 02:27:13.959 things would look like. I think that they probably believe, 2105 02:27:14.159 --> 02:27:16.639 like you know, anything, that the Germans were willing to 2106 02:27:16.680 --> 02:27:22.920 dedicate this kind of effort too, is UH is going 2107 02:27:23.000 --> 02:27:27.399 to be explicitly military and probably you know, some kind 2108 02:27:27.440 --> 02:27:33.719 of massive force multiplier that's misguided for a lot of reasons, 2109 02:27:34.159 --> 02:27:38.719 not ethically, if actually, but in a fog of war 2110 02:27:38.799 --> 02:27:43.959 kind of scenario with the state of science at the time, 2111 02:27:44.520 --> 02:27:49.040 that was UH, you know, available even to an expert. 2112 02:27:49.840 --> 02:27:53.399 I I I think they probably believed what they conveyed 2113 02:27:54.440 --> 02:28:01.559 the Churchill the UH. They further said that the material 2114 02:28:02.440 --> 02:28:06.879 for an atomic weapon UH at the earliest, at the 2115 02:28:06.959 --> 02:28:09.120 very earliest, could be available to Britain by the end 2116 02:28:09.120 --> 02:28:12.399 of nineteen forty three, you know. But that also, you know, 2117 02:28:12.399 --> 02:28:14.200 begs the question as to like, what would we do 2118 02:28:14.280 --> 02:28:21.479 with it and would it even work? But the UH 2119 02:28:21.959 --> 02:28:24.760 this of course led the British to UH try and 2120 02:28:24.760 --> 02:28:28.120 see if they could find out about the Uranian research 2121 02:28:28.159 --> 02:28:35.440 program through their contexts in Norway, the UH the primary 2122 02:28:35.479 --> 02:28:40.639 German heavy water facility was at Razuken, Norway. If I'm 2123 02:28:40.680 --> 02:28:46.440 butchering that, forgive me Juken, I think r j U 2124 02:28:46.520 --> 02:28:53.559 k A N. The problem is, as I think the 2125 02:28:53.600 --> 02:28:56.440 subscribers know, because we got into it in our Churchill episodes, 2126 02:28:57.120 --> 02:28:59.920 the Norwegians are not a particularly warm feelings about the British, 2127 02:29:00.000 --> 02:29:02.520 particularly when the British had intended to assault and invade 2128 02:29:02.559 --> 02:29:11.760 and occupy Norway preemptively. So throughout the summer nine forty one, 2129 02:29:13.239 --> 02:29:20.840 as UH intelligence came in from UH Trondheim to London, 2130 02:29:22.239 --> 02:29:26.600 you know from their intelligence operatives that uh, you know, 2131 02:29:26.760 --> 02:29:30.600 heavy water production that Rajukan you know, was steadily increasing. 2132 02:29:33.079 --> 02:29:42.399 The uh. The UH, the priority of UH, the priority 2133 02:29:42.440 --> 02:29:45.159 of the Prime Minister, you know, as well as everybody 2134 02:29:45.159 --> 02:29:49.200 in the intelligence into military establishment was to uh you know, 2135 02:29:49.239 --> 02:29:55.639 bring the Norwegian UH intelligence service on board and uh, 2136 02:29:55.719 --> 02:29:58.520 you know, essentially get somebody to you know, kind of 2137 02:29:58.520 --> 02:30:04.360 penetrate there was Jukan facility, or or at least uh, 2138 02:30:05.120 --> 02:30:09.559 you know, develop a a way of conveying information back 2139 02:30:09.600 --> 02:30:12.799 to London that might be usable in terms of how 2140 02:30:13.000 --> 02:30:16.959 you know, the facility could be could be compromised and 2141 02:30:17.079 --> 02:30:23.520 uh derailed from its purpose. They UH Norwegian essentially told 2142 02:30:23.559 --> 02:30:27.440 him to go to hell, you know, they they UH. 2143 02:30:28.280 --> 02:30:31.959 The official response from UH there was a guy named Welsh. 2144 02:30:32.000 --> 02:30:37.280 He was a lieutenant commander in UH British in u 2145 02:30:37.520 --> 02:30:41.479 in in UH in the British Army went on to 2146 02:30:41.520 --> 02:30:44.280 serve in the intelligence service. He'd married a Norwegian woman 2147 02:30:45.479 --> 02:30:48.079 and he was chief the Norwegian section of UH the 2148 02:30:48.120 --> 02:30:55.040 intelligence service. He UH he contacted UH when he when 2149 02:30:55.040 --> 02:30:59.440 he contacted his counterparts in Norwegian intelligence, apparently they literally 2150 02:30:59.440 --> 02:31:03.159 said to him a telegram, blood is thicker than heavy water, 2151 02:31:03.399 --> 02:31:05.559 you know, like basically go fund yourself, you know, like 2152 02:31:05.639 --> 02:31:07.840 we're not. We're not. We do. We want to be 2153 02:31:07.879 --> 02:31:10.479 thrilled that they that that, you know, the the bare 2154 02:31:10.479 --> 02:31:12.079 amount is here and we don't know what the hell 2155 02:31:12.120 --> 02:31:16.600 they're doing, you know, at this facility, but you know, 2156 02:31:16.639 --> 02:31:18.719 we're not. We're not gonna help you in Piggy Churchill 2157 02:31:18.719 --> 02:31:21.159 will find other ways to attack our country, you know. 2158 02:31:21.200 --> 02:31:28.040 And I think that's really interesting, especially considering how in UH, 2159 02:31:28.799 --> 02:31:32.159 particularly in in in English history books and like Quizzling 2160 02:31:32.239 --> 02:31:34.840 is held out it's just this like it's just this buffoon, 2161 02:31:34.920 --> 02:31:36.639 when in reality he was a great man. But also 2162 02:31:36.719 --> 02:31:43.360 they it's pretended that like Norway was a either fully 2163 02:31:43.399 --> 02:31:45.639 on board with the Allies with this like victim state, 2164 02:31:45.760 --> 02:31:47.879 you know, like a lot like you know, there was 2165 02:31:47.920 --> 02:31:51.799 a about five sweet five and ten thousand Norwegians like 2166 02:31:51.879 --> 02:31:55.479 joining vafen SS and for a populationized in Norway. That's substantial. 2167 02:31:55.959 --> 02:31:59.120 Like Nude Hampson, it was kind of like the National 2168 02:31:59.120 --> 02:32:01.239 Scribe in Norway. You know, he literally wrote a eulogy 2169 02:32:01.239 --> 02:32:03.120 to add off Hitler like they I mean there Rwegians 2170 02:32:03.200 --> 02:32:06.879 are great people, but I and it's just an interesting 2171 02:32:07.000 --> 02:32:11.520 kind of wrinkle that you know, they refuse to participate 2172 02:32:12.639 --> 02:32:16.600 in kind of these UH, these designs of of London, 2173 02:32:18.559 --> 02:32:22.319 even at the height of the of the of the 2174 02:32:22.360 --> 02:32:29.120 early phase of the war. At the UH same time 2175 02:32:31.799 --> 02:32:36.079 the UH, the British approached, at least as we know 2176 02:32:36.159 --> 02:32:40.760 from the record, the British approached the senior British scientific 2177 02:32:40.799 --> 02:32:49.280 representative and UH in the in in in the air 2178 02:32:49.319 --> 02:32:55.200 Mistry Committee. He wrote, he wrote to the chairman of UH, 2179 02:32:55.879 --> 02:32:59.520 Roosevelt's Scientific Advisory Committee, like when he was in Washington, 2180 02:32:59.639 --> 02:33:04.959 I believe like if I read that right, you know, 2181 02:33:05.000 --> 02:33:07.440 basically like you know, kind of feeling out, you know, 2182 02:33:07.520 --> 02:33:10.319 the the Yanks about you know, what the state of 2183 02:33:10.319 --> 02:33:14.000 their research was. And of course like they nobody else 2184 02:33:14.000 --> 02:33:16.319 had the Manhattan Project, you know, like knew anything. Like 2185 02:33:16.319 --> 02:33:19.159 even if they had, I it's I mean, it's debatable 2186 02:33:19.159 --> 02:33:21.079 if they would have just closed that or not. But 2187 02:33:22.879 --> 02:33:26.920 you know, there was a it was a security was 2188 02:33:27.000 --> 02:33:30.719 very very tight, to say the least. But he voted 2189 02:33:30.719 --> 02:33:33.159 the question, you know, this is it proves possible to 2190 02:33:33.239 --> 02:33:36.280 manufacture a uranium bomb, you know, should in fact be used? 2191 02:33:36.920 --> 02:33:40.920 You know, like should we should should it should? You 2192 02:33:40.920 --> 02:33:44.760 know one of our respective general staffs are both like 2193 02:33:44.920 --> 02:33:47.479 are they willing and should they sanction the total destruction 2194 02:33:47.559 --> 02:33:52.360 of Berlin and the entire you know, or or like 2195 02:33:52.440 --> 02:33:55.120 the entire country in Germany, you know, with with a 2196 02:33:55.159 --> 02:33:58.520 weapons such as this, you know, And it's uh, that's 2197 02:33:58.559 --> 02:34:03.079 really the only the kind of the kind of lame 2198 02:34:03.440 --> 02:34:09.239 indirect reply was from Stimson, who in Stimpson, like I 2199 02:34:09.360 --> 02:34:13.200 mentioned earlier tonight, but also like in the past I've 2200 02:34:13.200 --> 02:34:15.840 mentioned that Stimpson was a you know, an outlier in 2201 02:34:15.879 --> 02:34:18.639 the new New Dealer regime. But you know, he said 2202 02:34:18.719 --> 02:34:23.000 years after the fact that you know, in ninety three 2203 02:34:23.840 --> 02:34:29.520 we believed, based on you know, intelligence derived that we 2204 02:34:29.559 --> 02:34:32.559 consider reliable, that you know, the Germans were far ahead 2205 02:34:32.600 --> 02:34:37.879 of us and weaponized atomic research. I think Stimpson probably 2206 02:34:37.879 --> 02:34:41.479 believed that. But it's interesting I raised the issue of 2207 02:34:43.120 --> 02:34:48.200 the UK scientific representative like not only raising this moral quagmire, 2208 02:34:48.280 --> 02:34:52.440 but you know, kind of putting it to paper literally 2209 02:34:52.479 --> 02:34:55.719 in the documentary record. That's the only that's the only 2210 02:34:55.799 --> 02:35:01.639 such moral qualm I've ever heard from a British source 2211 02:35:01.719 --> 02:35:07.360 about about the about the atomic bomb from you know, 2212 02:35:07.360 --> 02:35:09.680 from the era before it was it even you know, 2213 02:35:09.760 --> 02:35:18.600 had been devised into existence. Bomber Harris, uh spoke very 2214 02:35:18.639 --> 02:35:24.000 candidly and intelligently and the morality of strategic bombing you 2215 02:35:24.000 --> 02:35:26.840 know later on, but that not of the out of 2216 02:35:26.840 --> 02:35:33.399 the nuclear question. But it's uh, I think the stuff's 2217 02:35:33.479 --> 02:35:37.239 useful to kind of it paints a picture of what 2218 02:35:37.319 --> 02:35:41.639 was in the minds of the relevant players, you know, 2219 02:35:41.799 --> 02:35:47.799 like I said by them, I in reality, America was 2220 02:35:47.799 --> 02:35:51.959 far ahead of everybody in terms of you know, applied 2221 02:35:52.440 --> 02:35:59.239 atomic weapons research. Plutonium was first synthesized, synthetically produced, and 2222 02:35:59.360 --> 02:36:06.680 isolated in late nineteen forty by deuteron bombardment of uranium 2223 02:36:06.760 --> 02:36:11.959 two thirty eight in a cyclotron at Unity of California, Berkeley, Okay, 2224 02:36:12.200 --> 02:36:19.000 and the ultimately plutonium plutonium proved to be a game changer. 2225 02:36:19.440 --> 02:36:22.760 The Nagasaki bomb was a was a plutonium bomb, okay. 2226 02:36:23.319 --> 02:36:30.000 But even like, aside from that, just uh at separating 2227 02:36:30.120 --> 02:36:33.079 uh plutonium from a chain you're acting uranium pile and 2228 02:36:33.079 --> 02:36:37.040 then using that as an atomic explosive. Just the fact 2229 02:36:37.040 --> 02:36:41.959 that possibility had been recognized, that meant that you know, 2230 02:36:42.040 --> 02:36:45.840 from you know, basically from inception of the Manhattan Project 2231 02:36:45.920 --> 02:36:48.319 was like on the path like developing an atomic bomb, 2232 02:36:48.360 --> 02:36:52.879 like in concrete terms, which is pretty remarkable. I mean 2233 02:36:52.920 --> 02:36:54.959 in all kinds of ways, I mean, like good and bad. 2234 02:36:55.879 --> 02:37:06.840 But the the uh, yeah, I was gonna say, Oh, 2235 02:37:06.959 --> 02:37:16.799 the UH summer of nineteen forty one in Germany, the UH, 2236 02:37:16.959 --> 02:37:20.600 the Army of Research Department had formally contracted Norwegian Hydro 2237 02:37:20.920 --> 02:37:23.479 for a supply of fifteen hundred kilograms of heavy water 2238 02:37:23.920 --> 02:37:31.319 between October and the end of the year or but 2239 02:37:31.479 --> 02:37:33.159 from October nineteen end of the year only three to 2240 02:37:33.200 --> 02:37:38.959 sixty one kilgrams have been delivered. It was slow going. 2241 02:37:39.000 --> 02:37:43.639 In other words, like if if this was in a 2242 02:37:45.680 --> 02:37:48.719 like even if even the process which was outlined at 2243 02:37:48.760 --> 02:37:52.000 the second Berlin Conference, which essentially amount of, do you know, 2244 02:37:52.040 --> 02:37:56.200 the creation of a reactor and subsequently you know, the 2245 02:37:56.280 --> 02:38:01.920 utilization of that reactor and the heavy water cooling to uh, 2246 02:38:02.399 --> 02:38:06.879 you know, to cultivate uranium two thirty five, Like even 2247 02:38:06.920 --> 02:38:09.280 if that, even if that was the objective and it 2248 02:38:09.319 --> 02:38:13.639 was on track. Arguably in terms of you know, both 2249 02:38:13.680 --> 02:38:17.520 intent and capability. This seems far too slow a process 2250 02:38:17.639 --> 02:38:22.799 to make any kind of difference on the battlefeel. We'll 2251 02:38:22.799 --> 02:38:25.959 get into exactly what I mean in a minute. But 2252 02:38:26.000 --> 02:38:29.280 what's important is that once, once, this, once this heavy 2253 02:38:29.319 --> 02:38:34.639 water cultivation got underway, Heisenberg attested. He said it was 2254 02:38:34.920 --> 02:38:37.360 from September forty one. He's like, we saw an open 2255 02:38:37.360 --> 02:38:40.200 a road ahead of us leading to an atomic bomb. Okay, 2256 02:38:40.200 --> 02:38:41.959 It's like, this is when I became convinced it was 2257 02:38:42.000 --> 02:38:47.680 at least possible. And that's when, uh, you know, just 2258 02:38:47.799 --> 02:38:52.120 kind of a what was what was gleaned from you know, 2259 02:38:52.520 --> 02:38:56.959 just these processes that were actively underway. Things came into 2260 02:38:57.120 --> 02:39:00.479 focus and a kind of conceptual capacity. Ethemics like, I'm 2261 02:39:00.479 --> 02:39:02.319 not a scientist, so I take these guys words for 2262 02:39:02.399 --> 02:39:05.479 it in their testimony when they suggest that this is 2263 02:39:07.319 --> 02:39:10.159 this is a you know, a real process. Whatever the 2264 02:39:10.280 --> 02:39:16.559 endeavor is, Neil's borr uh, and this is important. The 2265 02:39:16.680 --> 02:39:19.639 end of October ninety forty one, heis Montreil the Denmark 2266 02:39:19.680 --> 02:39:21.959 to seek out Neils Borr, who was one of the 2267 02:39:21.959 --> 02:39:24.879 pre eminent physics minds on this planet, and heisen he 2268 02:39:24.920 --> 02:39:28.120 was something of a mentor tot Heisenberg. Heisenberg asked him 2269 02:39:28.600 --> 02:39:32.920 in at Boor's home, he said, you know, and I 2270 02:39:33.040 --> 02:39:35.639 was Heisenberg wasn't being loose lipped and telling him like 2271 02:39:35.680 --> 02:39:41.040 what he was working on. He asked for just you know, 2272 02:39:41.239 --> 02:39:44.719 basically like, you know, what, what do you think of 2273 02:39:44.760 --> 02:39:47.639 the like is there a moral obligation and not cultivate, 2274 02:39:47.959 --> 02:39:51.159 you know, a weapon from atomic energy? Like basically, like, 2275 02:39:51.200 --> 02:39:53.920 what's the moral implications of working on an atomic bomb 2276 02:39:53.920 --> 02:39:58.879 in wartime if such a thing were possible? You know? 2277 02:40:02.120 --> 02:40:05.000 Orr said that you know it, you know, well, you 2278 02:40:05.000 --> 02:40:10.200 know the responsibility once fatherland versus you know, his duty 2279 02:40:10.239 --> 02:40:12.680 to you know, the scientific community as well as you know, 2280 02:40:12.760 --> 02:40:15.120 like human progress, all these things only need to be weighed. 2281 02:40:18.719 --> 02:40:22.559 Borr afterwards came away believing that this was like Heisenberg's 2282 02:40:22.600 --> 02:40:24.920 kind of like it was either Heisenberg sort of like 2283 02:40:24.959 --> 02:40:28.120 thinly veiled confession, or it was him trying to convey 2284 02:40:28.159 --> 02:40:30.079 to him and sort of like a culted language that 2285 02:40:30.120 --> 02:40:36.079 he was building an atomic bomb quite literally, and he 2286 02:40:36.079 --> 02:40:39.000 he see He later said Bored that he was deeply 2287 02:40:39.040 --> 02:40:45.520 shocked this. I believe Borr basically told all of his 2288 02:40:45.600 --> 02:40:51.719 intimates within kind of the small fraternity of European physicists 2289 02:40:51.760 --> 02:40:54.479 that you know, Heisenberg came to see me, and the 2290 02:40:54.520 --> 02:40:57.440 Reich is building a bomb, okay. And I think that's 2291 02:40:57.479 --> 02:40:59.479 when the kind of myth of the German atomic bomb 2292 02:40:59.520 --> 02:41:02.520 program really kind of took off in earnest, not in 2293 02:41:02.559 --> 02:41:05.319 a propaganic capacity. I think people actually believe this, and 2294 02:41:05.360 --> 02:41:09.840 I think Bora actually believed this too. But even if 2295 02:41:09.840 --> 02:41:11.440 that were true, and I'm gonna wrap up here in 2296 02:41:11.440 --> 02:41:19.319 a moment, but as fall became winter in nineteen forty one, 2297 02:41:19.559 --> 02:41:22.360 the Wehrmacht was stopped dead its tracks at the gates 2298 02:41:22.399 --> 02:41:27.159 of Moscow, you know, and as we talked about many 2299 02:41:27.239 --> 02:41:31.639 times in our series, you know, the right the Soviet 2300 02:41:31.719 --> 02:41:36.000 Union had to fall in December, you know, the the 2301 02:41:36.159 --> 02:41:40.520 entire German state, it's national economics, everything about it was 2302 02:41:44.200 --> 02:41:49.479 configured towards quote short wars with long respites, you know. 2303 02:41:49.520 --> 02:41:51.760 Like That's why I always emphasized that the Third Reich 2304 02:41:51.879 --> 02:41:54.479 was not some like mirror the Soviet Union. It was 2305 02:41:54.520 --> 02:41:57.319 not mobilized for war from the top down. It did 2306 02:41:57.319 --> 02:42:00.639 not even have a wartime mobilization scheme on play you 2307 02:42:00.639 --> 02:42:05.159 know until Lany forty three. You know, this was uh 2308 02:42:05.959 --> 02:42:11.159 the fact that, uh, the assault on Moscow failed. I mean, 2309 02:42:11.159 --> 02:42:13.479 this was a disaster, like ultimately this cost the war. 2310 02:42:14.159 --> 02:42:22.520 But immediately, uh, in December forty one, Hitler issued the 2311 02:42:22.600 --> 02:42:24.879 edicts that the need to the German national economy or 2312 02:42:24.920 --> 02:42:29.719 to give way to the necessities the arment's economy, and 2313 02:42:29.760 --> 02:42:36.479 that meant that, you know, uh, Fritz Toad on December third, 2314 02:42:36.639 --> 02:42:38.719 and for those who don't know, Fritz Toad was the 2315 02:42:39.959 --> 02:42:43.639 Albert Spear succeeded Fritz Toad as Armaments and Munitions Minister 2316 02:42:43.719 --> 02:42:49.680 after Toad was killed. Toads informed Hitler that the economy 2317 02:42:49.760 --> 02:42:52.680 was literally at the breaking point, and from then on, 2318 02:42:52.799 --> 02:42:57.319 any expansion in one sector to meet military necessities had 2319 02:42:57.360 --> 02:43:01.760 to be balanced by you know, reduction in another. You know, 2320 02:43:02.079 --> 02:43:10.040 Hitler drafted a decree essentially with like Toast's uh input 2321 02:43:10.239 --> 02:43:15.239 as to a you know what what this would entail, 2322 02:43:15.600 --> 02:43:17.879 you know, and essentially like shedding all like non essential 2323 02:43:17.920 --> 02:43:23.239 projects from like any firms or institutions like engaged in 2324 02:43:23.280 --> 02:43:27.440 applied research of a non military nature. Like essentially like 2325 02:43:27.520 --> 02:43:37.399 that was over. You know, it's uh. Professor Schumann, one 2326 02:43:37.399 --> 02:43:44.440 of the Genda conference attendees, he drafted an open letter 2327 02:43:44.600 --> 02:43:48.079 to all institutes working in the arene In project and 2328 02:43:48.120 --> 02:43:50.040 he said, he said to no one certain terms that 2329 02:43:50.479 --> 02:43:52.760 the quote, the work and the project undertaken by the 2330 02:43:52.760 --> 02:43:55.200 research group is making demands which can be justified in 2331 02:43:55.239 --> 02:43:57.840 the current recruiting and raw materials crisis only if there's 2332 02:43:57.840 --> 02:43:59.600 a certainty of getting some benefit from it in the 2333 02:43:59.600 --> 02:44:04.520 near few. Sure, you know, and that uh and that 2334 02:44:04.719 --> 02:44:09.840 uh and that that was that man, it's we can 2335 02:44:11.399 --> 02:44:13.719 there's more to the story of the virus house. As 2336 02:44:13.760 --> 02:44:19.399 the war went on, and particularly as you know the 2337 02:44:19.520 --> 02:44:22.479 tide truly turned, I mean and seek was no longer 2338 02:44:22.520 --> 02:44:28.120 a possibility after December forty one, but after Stalingrad, you know, 2339 02:44:28.159 --> 02:44:30.760 it can there's obviously like an opening a new questions 2340 02:44:30.840 --> 02:44:35.280 like why did the Iranian project continue? But that oh 2341 02:44:35.440 --> 02:44:41.319 do uh? That oh do I that old kind of 2342 02:44:41.360 --> 02:44:45.440 the nature of of modern modern bureaucracy, particularly in a 2343 02:44:45.479 --> 02:44:48.680 state of total war, you know, like these things that 2344 02:44:48.719 --> 02:44:51.159 are earmarked for funding of a way even an emergency 2345 02:44:51.280 --> 02:44:56.399 was kind of continuing to go on, you know, were 2346 02:44:56.440 --> 02:44:59.920 there were there's some people too, like within Dutch just 2347 02:45:00.040 --> 02:45:03.520 the research group, but within the military establishment, who had 2348 02:45:03.600 --> 02:45:06.760 who did understand the implications of this uranium research and 2349 02:45:06.840 --> 02:45:09.239 did think that there was potential for a real viable 2350 02:45:09.360 --> 02:45:12.440 device to be cultivated from it, you know, in a 2351 02:45:12.440 --> 02:45:14.840 way that could like help Germany. Yeah, I think there were. 2352 02:45:17.840 --> 02:45:21.040 David Ermi certainly seemed to think there were. We get 2353 02:45:21.040 --> 02:45:23.760 into some of that next episode, and I promise, I 2354 02:45:23.799 --> 02:45:27.040 I'll wrap it up. But there's just a lot here, man, 2355 02:45:27.200 --> 02:45:29.840 you know, and like, uh, I think, uh, I think 2356 02:45:29.840 --> 02:45:34.079 the entire story needs to be told. But yeah, that's 2357 02:45:34.120 --> 02:45:36.239 a I'm getting uncomfortable with form, like sitting for this 2358 02:45:36.399 --> 02:45:39.719 hour rightly, and I don't want to bore people at death. 2359 02:45:39.760 --> 02:45:42.399 But yeah, well we'll take this up in for a 2360 02:45:42.440 --> 02:45:45.479 part four and I'll I'll wrap it up then, I promise. 2361 02:45:46.159 --> 02:45:48.159 Yeah, I don't think it's boring. I think people are 2362 02:45:48.200 --> 02:45:51.120 getting a lot out of this, So yeah, we'll do 2363 02:45:51.440 --> 02:45:52.399 we'll do wrap it up. 2364 02:45:52.360 --> 02:45:54.920 With part. 2365 02:45:55.319 --> 02:45:59.280 Yeah, but do plugs real quick and we'll get it. 2366 02:45:59.440 --> 02:45:59.959 We'll get out of it. 2367 02:46:00.040 --> 02:46:05.719 Yeah. Yeah. You can find me on Twitter still or 2368 02:46:06.040 --> 02:46:10.399 X rather. I hate all like porny that scenes like 2369 02:46:10.399 --> 02:46:11.799 I don't like, I don't like I was like I 2370 02:46:11.840 --> 02:46:13.920 was on my phone like on the fucking train. It 2371 02:46:14.040 --> 02:46:15.319 was like some chick next to me and like you 2372 02:46:15.319 --> 02:46:17.000 only over the abs gonna be X. It's like, man, 2373 02:46:17.000 --> 02:46:20.200 I don't that just looks fucking I just don't like it. 2374 02:46:20.239 --> 02:46:25.479 But it's a real capital R E A L underscore 2375 02:46:25.680 --> 02:46:30.399 number seven h one e S seven seven seven on 2376 02:46:30.399 --> 02:46:34.680 on bird app or x app or whatever. The whole 2377 02:46:34.680 --> 02:46:37.040 of my podcast and some of my like longer form 2378 02:46:37.079 --> 02:46:41.120 stuff is on substack. That's the prime primary place to 2379 02:46:41.200 --> 02:46:44.479 hit me up. And it's a real Thomas seven seven 2380 02:46:44.559 --> 02:46:47.840 seven dot substick dot com. You can find my website 2381 02:46:47.879 --> 02:46:51.440 which is still under construction, but there's stuff there. It's uh, 2382 02:46:51.760 --> 02:46:54.520 just Thomas seven seven seven dot com number seven H 2383 02:46:54.559 --> 02:46:58.280 one E S seven seven seven dot com. My YouTube 2384 02:46:58.319 --> 02:47:00.879 channel is Thomas TV. I'm leaving for Utah on a 2385 02:47:00.879 --> 02:47:03.799 few days. Issue dedicated content for it, which I'm excited about. 2386 02:47:04.520 --> 02:47:06.959 As time goes on, we're gonna do more with that. 2387 02:47:07.159 --> 02:47:09.319 But I got a lot going on right now. I'll 2388 02:47:09.319 --> 02:47:12.520 be dropping more long form like books like in the spring. 2389 02:47:14.440 --> 02:47:17.319 You know, Season two of the pod is coming up 2390 02:47:17.360 --> 02:47:21.159 in September. Yeah, all kinds of stuff. 2391 02:47:21.200 --> 02:47:22.799 Man, I appreciate it. 2392 02:47:22.879 --> 02:47:24.639 Safe travels until the next time,