WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:04.839 I see somethings are going to happen. 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:10.599 What's going to happen? 3 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:15.519 What? 4 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:29.120 Welcome to the Occult Rejects. It's an episode. I'm very excited. 5 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:31.800 I have another author on, uh and it's about you know, 6 00:00:31.879 --> 00:00:34.399 religion and reality, one of the books that we'll touch 7 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:36.719 on and some other things that he has written. And 8 00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:38.640 I definitely think it will fit the show and I'll 9 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:42.119 have a great chat. But before we introduce him, let 10 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:45.759 me introduce the other rejects. And we got Lisa the 11 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:47.920 Occult reject, bad scientist. How are you? 12 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:52.280 I'm good, I'm very good. Thank you for having me on. 13 00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:55.920 I'm very much looking forward to this conversation. I first 14 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:59.840 came across Darren, remember we had we were talking throughing 15 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.759 on whiteheads theories and process philosophy and stuff like that, 16 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:06.079 and I stumbled upon there and when you told me 17 00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:08.000 you were having him on, I was like, Oh, this 18 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:11.200 is gonna be great to me, A great discussion. So 19 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:14.280 looking forward to and thank y'all fellow rechecks for also 20 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:14.719 having me on. 21 00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:17.560 So of course, thank you, thank you for joining us. 22 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:21.439 And we got Tyrone. What is going on, sir? How 23 00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:21.879 are you. 24 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:23.719 Here? 25 00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:24.239 What's going on? 26 00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:24.480 Hey? 27 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:24.840 Nice? 28 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:26.280 To meet you, Darren. This is going to be an 29 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:26.920 interesting show. 30 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:29.040 That's actually my first time hearing about you, so I'm 31 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:31.680 gonna definitely be paying attention. I'm ready to take notes 32 00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:34.719 just like always, and uh yeah, I'm just ready to 33 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:35.120 get it on. 34 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:37.719 So yeah, thanks Nick, appreciate it, of. 35 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:40.319 Course I appreciate it. And uh for people listening by 36 00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:43.959 the time this comes out, I would assume maybe, uh 37 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:48.560 Tyrone's work is already out by then, definitely go check 38 00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:51.480 out on the Universe Unveiled. My man killed it today 39 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:55.079 with the show on the the Adunaki and on zachar 40 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:58.920 Ryers Sischen's work. I definitely suggest to please go check 41 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:02.519 that out. And then we got Ethan Indigo. What is 42 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:02.920 going on? 43 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:05.400 So very cool. 44 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:09.319 I'm looking forward to checking that out, Tyrone. Uh yeah, 45 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:11.560 I've been checking out Tyrone's book, and I'm also a 46 00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:15.800 writer and uh recent article on a research institute dot 47 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:19.560 org and more to come, and excited to hear about 48 00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:21.280 Darren's stream of study. 49 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:22.479 Very very intriguing. 50 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:26.240 Hell yeah, right, definitely, thank you, Ethan. I appreciate you. 51 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:29.759 Want to promote any of your books, h yeah. 52 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:33.120 The Fourth Initiation is is my most recent one. And 53 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:37.599 and I've been checking out uh Tyrone's book, and Ricardo 54 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:39.039 wrote a book too, and yeah. 55 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:41.280 A bunch of a bunch of writers. So this is 56 00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:43.199 this is gonna be fun. 57 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:48.800 Yes, definitely, definitely. And finally to the man himself, Darren, Unfortunately, 58 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:51.000 I'm not exactly sure how to pronounce your last name. 59 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:52.879 I'm meant to ask you before we recorded, and I 60 00:02:52.919 --> 00:02:54.919 was like I was introducing everybody. I'm like, damn it, 61 00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:56.439 I never hasked how today his last name. 62 00:02:56.879 --> 00:02:57.879 It's brutal. 63 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:00.680 I was like, Iam Mareno, maybe that's how I was 64 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:03.719 gonna say, but I was like, I don't know. So Darren, 65 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:06.680 introduce yourself. Please let everybody know what you deal is. 66 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:09.639 Let let any any receipts you want to bring and 67 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:11.599 tell people about your past, what you studied this and that, 68 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:13.360 or any books. Please let everybody know. 69 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:16.240 Now, all right, I mean, I'll keep that short. It's 70 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:18.960 not that interesting my last name. I just go off. 71 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:21.319 I'm Marino. That's not really how you pronounce it, but 72 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:27.199 it's easiest, so simple that way. I went to I 73 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:30.879 got my PhD at Claremont Graduate University up in LA 74 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:35.800 in philosophy of religion, and I did focus on specifically 75 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:40.159 process theology. I heard that mentioned Whitehead. I didn't know. 76 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:43.280 We even't really go into that. I don't We'll see 77 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:46.360 if you want to. I'm happy to go down that. 78 00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:52.080 But that's a that's a challenging Yeah, can of worms. 79 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:54.840 So I went there, and then I taught at San 80 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:59.520 Diego State for like four or five years and over 81 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:04.039 you now University of San Diego, taught at Claremont School 82 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:08.080 Theology and two books that maybe we'll get into today. 83 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:11.400 One is Religion Reality and that does have a lot 84 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:16.439 of actually processed philosophy and Whitehead material in there. And 85 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:19.759 then totally different type of book maybe we'll touch on it. 86 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:23.639 Lessons from the Afterlife for a Happy Life goes into 87 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:27.720 like near death experiences, but instead of exploring whether they're 88 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:32.560 true or not, it's basically just accepting that people are 89 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:37.839 having an amazing transformed experience from these indies. So maybe 90 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:42.480 we can like utilize aspects of the indie experience to 91 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:45.959 sort of recreate that without having to actually go through 92 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:49.199 the brutality of the near death part. 93 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:51.720 So vertit. 94 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:53.839 Yeah, when I had saw that you did work on 95 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:55.240 that too, I was like, that could be a whole 96 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:58.040 of the topic or the show itself, because we've had 97 00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:01.040 people on Fendes as well. I'm very very interested in 98 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:04.000 those I've said it multiple times myself on the show. 99 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:06.639 I even think with even if you want to take 100 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:09.079 out like magic or ritual magic or occultism, I would 101 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:12.399 even say the Shamans are pretty much putting themselves close 102 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:15.360 to an end or or death experience to have the 103 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:20.279 experience that enlightened them. So I'm very interested in that stuff. 104 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:25.120 I guess, Darren, what got you? What interested you to 105 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:28.800 start getting into these studies? I mean, were you were 106 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:31.519 you kind of like open to the occult or esoteric 107 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:34.360 maybe putting you know, I know, cult sounds worse, you 108 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:37.040 maybe open to esoteric stuff like an earlier age, And 109 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:38.759 that's why you went into like kind of studying this 110 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:39.560 stuff for school. 111 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:44.720 So I actually came at sort of the occult esoteric 112 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:48.079 stuff a little bit later. Okay, So I started. I 113 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:51.399 started off more because I was doing philosophy and religious 114 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:54.560 studies because of the overlap on the big questions, the 115 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:58.680 nature of bolts in reality, meaning of life, the big 116 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.920 the big sort of topics. Right. I was into metaphysics 117 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:07.920 pretty specifically in theology and then I have an eclectic interest, 118 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:10.480 so I'm like, hey, I want to start I want 119 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:14.199 to start reading all these occult esoteric books. And I 120 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:17.120 actually have an antiquities collection as well, separate famith, so 121 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:20.560 I have like some I have some really rare old 122 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:23.040 cult books. 123 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:25.600 Something I just I just want to ask real quick. 124 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:27.439 I know how we were talking about like Platinis and 125 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:30.319 Plato earlier with those people that you were studying, when 126 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:32.439 you mentioned that you were into philosophy, were you already 127 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:36.839 looking into those people then? Yeah, absolutely, Mean that's really 128 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:40.439 interesting because I mean I had heard of them when 129 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:41.839 I was a kid, of course, you know, growing up 130 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:44.680 in school, and then like I guess, you know, whatever 131 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:46.879 his life went on, I just didn't think philosophy was 132 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:50.079 important and other things were. And when I came back 133 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:52.639 around getting into the occult, their names are huge and 134 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:55.600 pop up again. So it's interesting how like when you 135 00:06:55.639 --> 00:06:57.600 find them or when like or when I was younger 136 00:06:57.639 --> 00:06:59.480 and came across them, the occult was nothing to it 137 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:01.920 or was just falling as if he deep thinking. But 138 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:04.519 then when you get into for me, into occultism or 139 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:06.800 I was in the Oto, their names were big, you know, 140 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:08.800 Like I said, some of them are on the Saints List, 141 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:11.519 So I find that just like very interesting. I think 142 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:14.360 that's probably why I assumed you must have been involved 143 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:17.959 in the occult. They're interested in the esotericism prior to 144 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:19.879 this because of the you know how I look at 145 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:20.240 it now. 146 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:25.639 Yeah, it's interesting with Plato, right, especially because he's foundational. 147 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:27.920 I mean, that's pretty much like a one oh one class. 148 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:29.680 They're gonna hit you with a lot of Plato and 149 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:32.959 Aristotle as well, right, but Maine with Plato, I would say, 150 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:37.279 and a few people are aware. I imagine that all 151 00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:45.759 of you probably are. But Platonic thought influences everything, everything. 152 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:49.959 I even think it might have had an influence with Kabbala. 153 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:52.319 Everything. 154 00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:54.759 Yeah, it was like, yo, when I started looking at them, 155 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:57.120 I was like, this sounds just like the supernal triad. 156 00:07:57.800 --> 00:07:58.439 This is unreal. 157 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:03.680 Look why led just to bring since what Whitehead was 158 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:08.079 mentioned or whatever? Process philosophy? He specifically states that, I mean, 159 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:11.279 I'm paraphrase. I don't remember the exact quote. The effectively, 160 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:14.199 history is nothing but a series of footnotes to Plato, 161 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:18.560 which is at least a half truth, I would say. 162 00:08:19.160 --> 00:08:22.199 I mean, he pretty much lays out Plato does a 163 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:25.480 lot of the core issues and arguments that are still 164 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:28.959 talked about today even in the twenty percentury and philosophy courses. 165 00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:34.360 So and Christianity, right, most people when they think Christianity, 166 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:38.159 they're like, oh, it's it's it's against paganism. It's nothing 167 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:44.039 but littered with neo platonic Since you mentioned platonis right, 168 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:48.159 specifically neo Platonic thought everywhere. 169 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:50.559 And then if you go by what Platonist is saying, 170 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:52.919 he's like, I'm not even creating anything new here, I'm 171 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:56.399 just expanding on Plato and trying to make that more understandable. 172 00:08:57.519 --> 00:08:57.799 Yeah. 173 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:00.399 I mean if he says that you're right, yeah, he 174 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:01.799 doesn't true. 175 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:05.360 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 176 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:08.720 So I that was definitely where you need to start there. 177 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:13.120 I'm a big fan of going chronologically right. I've never understood, like, 178 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:16.399 I have no problem throwing one of my former colleagues 179 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:19.720 under the bus. Won't name names, but they were They 180 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:22.840 weren't too happy about the fact that I, like, I 181 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:25.399 was teaching that intro to philosophy class and I had 182 00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:28.720 all this ancient material and then I had medieval philosophy 183 00:09:28.759 --> 00:09:31.840 as well, and they were basically like, why are you 184 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:36.759 teaching this jump straight into Renada card just start there 185 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:42.080 and move forward. And I was like, all right, let's 186 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:45.360 just throw out I guess thousands of years why not? 187 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:50.919 So it's interesting And in the world of philosophy, there's 188 00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:57.360 definitely like camps people that like Whitehead. I mean, I 189 00:09:57.399 --> 00:09:59.120 think the people like white Head are pretty open minded 190 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:01.799 to but like a lot of people don't like Whitehead. 191 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:04.879 Let me put it that way, and what do you 192 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:10.000 think the inclination for that perspective is that they don't 193 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:12.200 that they want to start at the cart and not. 194 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:16.120 Look at the Greek. 195 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:20.440 To answer that. Partially, I think it's because the medieval period, 196 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:26.440 at least specifically is so has so much of the theology, right, 197 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:29.759 and so they don't want to talk about arguments for 198 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:32.120 against existence of God. And a lot of these people 199 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:37.279 are more atheists, right, so maybe think it's a waste 200 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:41.080 of time. This person did tell me that it would 201 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.440 be okay to have one week on ancient Greek thought. 202 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:45.679 I'm like, oh, wow, one week, all right, I guess 203 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:53.320 that covers it is jam everything and that, right. I 204 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:56.879 don't know beyond that, it's a good question. I'd love 205 00:10:56.919 --> 00:11:00.200 to get inside their head to know why, but I. 206 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:02.799 Wonder how much of it is because it's so contested, 207 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:07.279 and that there isn't It's not just two camps of thought, 208 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:10.320 you know, pro or four. It's like all these little 209 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:16.399 SubCamps of thought. And I think it also has roots 210 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:20.799 in who influenced Plato. And there's so many contested theories 211 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:25.159 about Pythagoras, there's so many contested thoughts of empedicallys and 212 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:29.000 you're having these ancient philosophers also feed into some of 213 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:34.399 Plato's theories and thoughts. And if you already have camps 214 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:38.080 from those two, great now you have Plato. And it's 215 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:41.240 just it's too complicated. It's like a girl's brain. It's 216 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:43.159 like too many things going on at the same time. 217 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:47.399 You're definitely right pythagorists. I mean, there's no denying that 218 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:51.200 he's a massive influence on Plato. I mean, it's just 219 00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:54.840 I don't even think too many people would hopefully dispute that. 220 00:11:55.000 --> 00:12:00.000 But that brings your esoteric also kind of into the 221 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.120 into the picture. I don't think they had as big 222 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:04.919 of a thing back in the ancient world. Of like 223 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:09.720 a problem with this is more on the esoteric side. Therefore, 224 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:13.000 we can't touch it or whatever. I think they were 225 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:16.840 more open and philosophy was about catharsis. 226 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:17.799 You see. 227 00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:20.279 It wasn't just like this, arn't you know, sitting in 228 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:23.720 our ivory tower at a university arguing in someone else 229 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:27.559 in another university. It was meant to actually be therapeutic. 230 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:33.519 So if you're doing it's wonderful. 231 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:37.440 How some of the ancient lessons come in layers that 232 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:42.000 manifest differently depending on where you're at, and years later 233 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:45.720 obviously you might get different you know, lesson from it, right, 234 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:49.320 And all these esoteric lessons they're in there, and there's 235 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:52.200 also the very you know, the basic one too often, 236 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:54.000 the mathematical one for instance. 237 00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:01.159 Definitely didn't they worship like you got. I don't know, Ethan, 238 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:06.080 do you know the Bagerians or Lisa. 239 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:11.039 Yes, they celebrated, but they were all about the ten. 240 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:12.639 So yeah, sorry, Ethan. 241 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:15.519 No, I was going to say that that kind of 242 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:19.279 has the four layers of the tech tractus being one 243 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:24.279 point two points three and four. It kind of has 244 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:27.840 the four and the ten, and it depicts the four 245 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:32.000 dimensions of geometry. I know that they I think they 246 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:36.000 really love nine and the Textractors kind of encompassed everything. 247 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:42.080 But I have heard variously that the Pythagoreans despised two 248 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:46.440 as they saw it as being divisive, almost like we 249 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:53.639 would understand the polarization idea, and the trinity was perfect. 250 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:58.120 The three was perfect because of the fact that it 251 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:02.679 had the two sides of equilibrium and the middle part. 252 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:05.320 That makes sense. 253 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:13.720 To me. Oh, I was gonna ask you, Darren, so 254 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:15.759 what was it that made you get into doing religion 255 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:18.200 and reality book? That book? 256 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:20.600 So, to be honest, that was sort of an outgrowth 257 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:25.720 of my dissertation in large part that particular work. I'm 258 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:27.840 pretty shocked they even allowed me to do it because 259 00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:31.279 typically with a dissertation, as you know, it's like narrow, narrow, 260 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:36.399 and narrow right down to something ridiculously specific. Whereas I 261 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:38.360 went the opposite direction. I'm like, hey, I want to 262 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:43.120 try and make some massively comprehensive thing, and for whatever reason, 263 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.039 they let me do it. So that's what got me 264 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.039 started on that project, and because I wanted to look 265 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:52.080 this might bring up another interesting point for us to discuss. 266 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:55.440 So a lot of people that say they're spiritual but 267 00:14:55.480 --> 00:15:01.360 not religious, common phrase right to do. I mean, we've 268 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:05.919 all heard it right, So typically what people mean by that. 269 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.000 Obviously this doesn't cover everyone, but I think in large 270 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:14.440 part they tend to believe when they say that deep down, 271 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:18.200 all the religions are the same, They're aimed at the 272 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:21.720 same object and have the same form of salvation. So 273 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.240 this might be known as the perennial philosophy. Perhaps you've 274 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:29.120 all heard of that. That's in the last least one 275 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:31.639 hundred years or so, how you might hear it referenced, 276 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:35.519 And it's a common belief even still, and so religion reality, 277 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:41.919 that book is actually going against that whole set of claims. 278 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:48.960 So it's a different framework for dealing with interreligious dialogue. 279 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:51.480 You see. The real problem with the idea of like 280 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.639 deep down they're all the same is that if I'm 281 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:57.679 a Christian, you're a Buddhist, we can have a conversation 282 00:15:57.759 --> 00:15:59.919 and it can be cordial or whatever. Maybe I'll learn 283 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:04.399 something about like your temple or you know, wherever you 284 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:07.639 some ritual you do. But I'm not going to be 285 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:10.039 able to learn anything of ultimate importance that I couldn't 286 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:13.720 learn from my own tradition. See, because it's like they 287 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:17.200 all lead to the same summer on that view, So 288 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:19.159 I don't really need to have a dialogue. You you 289 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:21.840 know what I'm saying, Like I can, but I'm not 290 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:25.320 going to get anything of the deepest, most profound importance 291 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:26.840 from a dialogue. 292 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:28.480 If it all gets you to the same area, what's 293 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:30.080 the difference exactly? 294 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:34.960 Its purpose was to generate dialogue, see this perennial philosophy. 295 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:38.600 But in the end it almost makes it unnecessary. 296 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:45.519 So that's almost such I've always thought religion is just 297 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:50.679 merely a language to have a dialogue with God. That No, 298 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:54.440 this may offend a lot of people, but no language 299 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:57.480 is perfect or no language is the ultimate, no language 300 00:16:57.519 --> 00:16:58.360 is the right one. 301 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:01.720 It just is like religion, it just is. 302 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:05.079 It is the way to actually have a tool to 303 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:08.880 communicate with the divine. But and so what you're saying 304 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:11.359 is if it all gets us to the summit, that's 305 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:14.880 a pretty aligned with kind of what I was thinking. 306 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:17.680 Well, so what I'm saying in the book is that 307 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:24.680 there are different paths, different summits, not that they're all 308 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:28.160 going into the same right like the same you know, apex, 309 00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:30.839 like you have in entpreneur philosophy. If it's if it's 310 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:36.079 true that there are different components, that comprise ultimate reality, 311 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:39.519 and ultimate reality is more like a complex adaptive system 312 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:45.480 requiring these multiple parts. Now we can propose that Buddhism 313 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:50.000 is focused on one or more of these parts. Christianity, 314 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:54.119 Judaism as long are focused on a different component. If 315 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:56.359 you can accept something like that, now there's actually a 316 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:01.039 necessity for dialogue because if I'm talking now a Christian 317 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:05.400 of a Buddhist, I'm able to enrich my personal you know, 318 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:09.799 spiritual life or religious life through dialogue and through practicing 319 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:13.240 in your faith essentially and. 320 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.039 The diversity of belief. 321 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:20.000 Yes. And the thing is like, okay, so if I 322 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.000 make that claim, what's my supporting evidence? And supporting evidence 323 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:28.279 is easy to find, which is actually read all the 324 00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:31.599 sacred texts. A lot of people don't. 325 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:35.000 So that's what I always say too. I always tell 326 00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:37.160 people read the sacred text. I was just talking about 327 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:39.799 that earlier today. That's the most important thing, and that's 328 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:43.400 just learning the basics. That's just that's the basic fundamental 329 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:47.279 foundational thing to understanding anything is just read the basic 330 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:49.799 text first. I mean, you're gonna have different translations and 331 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.720 so on and so forth, but they're going you'll get 332 00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:55.240 a better idea if you just read the text for yourself. 333 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:57.839 Yeah, you got, you have to do that. I mean, 334 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:00.799 so the text is one piece of this to build 335 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:04.480 a case. A second piece is the commentary tradition. That's 336 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:06.039 where you get a lot of the stuff really is 337 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:08.599 coming out of like the most famous person who's given 338 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:13.359 commentary right on this religion. Right, So that's the second thing. 339 00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.359 Then the third piece is read the accounts of religious 340 00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:20.000 experience from those traditions. So if you do all three 341 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:22.279 of those things and then you look at the evidence, 342 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:27.119 you'll find that it's very difficult to uphold the claim 343 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:30.799 that they're all the same. In fact, even in the 344 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:34.799 same religious family using similar religious language. To your point, 345 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:38.599 so right, like say Jews like versus Christians versus Muslims 346 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:45.160 or something, there's radical differences, right, like tranitarian Christianity versus 347 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:51.559 strict Monotheism within Judaism and Islam dietary laws for is 348 00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:55.240 Law and Judaism, no dietary specific laws really, I mean 349 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:59.720 for Christianity. Right, So even within a similar clustered like 350 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:05.519 family of religions, let's say like Abrahamic, there's still wildly 351 00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:10.680 different in terms of their claims about ultimate reality. And 352 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:16.000 even salvation, what's required. It all comes apart to my point. 353 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:17.759 Once you start to read look. 354 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:20.759 At I find I find the idea compelling, and it's 355 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:24.160 almost as if we're here different people are here for 356 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:28.400 different lessons, And I find what you're saying to be 357 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:33.119 very parallel with what Buddhists would say. I'm sure you've 358 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:36.559 you've found that yourself right now. You know they would 359 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:40.319 agree with you, that people might be more suitable for 360 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:44.680 a different religion or a different path, if you will. 361 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.880 Yeah, I think that Buddhists are pretty generally open minded, right, 362 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:51.839 even a dialogue with the sciences, or not even just 363 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:56.759 other religions. So with like consciousness studies. 364 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:59.599 And as you put it to the the experiences of 365 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:05.839 past students and the writings of past practitioners is a 366 00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:08.480 real important aspect of the study of Buddhism. 367 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:12.920 I mean, we're in a world of comparison, so everyone 368 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:15.319 wants to like, Okay, let's just compare all these. If 369 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:17.599 I want to play the comparison game, I can cherry pick, 370 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:20.160 you know, and make it seem like all the religions 371 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:22.680 are the same. It's not hard, but you read the 372 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.000 whole text like we're saying and all these other things, 373 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:28.279 and then you realize, Okay, if we do our full 374 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.480 due diligence, we can see that you can contrast these 375 00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:38.079 things very easily. And that's a good thing because it 376 00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:43.279 shows the way to dialogue to actually enrich your spiritual life. 377 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:45.319 Is what I'm claiming in the book in Religion Reality 378 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:51.000 and to bring in the white Head piece if Lisa 379 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:54.759 is that in process theology, there is this notion of 380 00:21:54.799 --> 00:22:02.440 a sort of multiple philosophical ultimates or religious ultimates, so 381 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:05.319 it's not like it's just God or something that creates 382 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:12.599 ex mihilo everything else. So Whitehead's philosophy is like pluralistic 383 00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:17.359 enough that it provided an initial framework to how you 384 00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:21.240 can like match up the different religions to some of 385 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:25.400 the aspects of reality the white Head's talking about. And 386 00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:27.200 what I did in the book is I expanded upon 387 00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:29.640 Whitehead and added, like he has like maybe two or 388 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:32.759 three you could say three, and I added a couple more. 389 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:36.319 I basically made the claim that there's like five distinct 390 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:41.559 components to ultimate reality according to the religions if you 391 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:43.880 look at all of them, and that you need all 392 00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:46.319 five because if you don't have all five, what ends 393 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:50.119 up happening. You have to collapse the function of one 394 00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.480 of those five back into the remaining three or two 395 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:56.039 or one. So like a lot of people that collapse 396 00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.920 everything into God. Right. God's all powerful, all knowing, necessary 397 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.720 for you, all this stuff right, And when you do that, 398 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:07.599 you end up with a ton of other philosophical problems 399 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:10.839 like the problem of evil just for one example, or 400 00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:12.119 free will or whatever else. 401 00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:21.200