1 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,600 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the 3 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:28,280 Federalist and your experienced shurpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,960 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:32,039 --> 00:00:36,320 the Federalist dot com, follow us on ex at FDR LST. 6 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,719 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:39,799 --> 00:00:43,679 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,920 Our guest today is doctor Matt Mehan, Associate Dean and 9 00:00:48,039 --> 00:00:52,560 Assistant Professor of Government, Graduate School Government at the Hillsdale 10 00:00:52,679 --> 00:00:57,000 College's Washington, d C. Campus. He joins us today to 11 00:00:57,039 --> 00:01:01,159 talk about something that I think is extremely important as 12 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:07,280 we look to the next administration. That's accountability in government 13 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:12,680 and in justice in what has been an unjust age 14 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,359 for many reasons. Matt, thank you so much for joining 15 00:01:16,439 --> 00:01:17,760 us on the Federalist Radio Hour. 16 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:19,159 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. 17 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:27,359 Speaker 1: This is an important conversation to have, I believe because 18 00:01:27,599 --> 00:01:34,120 of what this country and what many have experienced over 19 00:01:34,159 --> 00:01:38,680 the last four years. In particular, and that is the 20 00:01:38,879 --> 00:01:44,959 constant use of lawfare against political opponents in what seems 21 00:01:45,599 --> 00:01:48,159 to a lot of people like more like a banana 22 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,959 republic than a constitutional republic. And as we turn the 23 00:01:53,159 --> 00:01:56,239 page on the Biden years, there are a lot of 24 00:01:56,319 --> 00:02:02,040 people who are calling for heads in conservative movement in America, 25 00:02:02,719 --> 00:02:06,239 and their anger is understandable and I think in many 26 00:02:06,359 --> 00:02:11,039 fronts well justified. The question we begin with today as 27 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,400 we talk this through, do you believe there will be accountability? 28 00:02:15,439 --> 00:02:18,719 And what will that accountability look like for the abuses 29 00:02:19,479 --> 00:02:21,719 of government of the last four years. 30 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 2: So I do believe there will be accountability. What it 31 00:02:28,719 --> 00:02:32,199 will look like in a certain sense is what we 32 00:02:32,199 --> 00:02:35,520 should talk about, because I do think there are a 33 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:41,159 lot of forks in the road that the Trump administration. Pambondi, 34 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:46,319 who just had her hearing this morning, recording today and 35 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:53,360 Cash Betel and a list of important people in the administration, 36 00:02:54,039 --> 00:02:56,199 They're going to have a lot of these decisions to make. 37 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:01,439 And so how they go about establish some accountability for 38 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:07,599 the law fair? And the once it's lawfair is it 39 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,159 points out the victim in this case, you know, former 40 00:03:12,199 --> 00:03:16,039 president and soon to be president Donald Trump and others. 41 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:21,240 But but but it almost goes beyond that to basically 42 00:03:21,479 --> 00:03:25,719 just a kind of wholesale violation of many laws, and 43 00:03:25,719 --> 00:03:30,000 and that in and of itself. It's not just that 44 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,159 in order to turn the law. Shakespeare has a great 45 00:03:33,199 --> 00:03:36,039 line that you lead the law in liem, which is 46 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,560 to say, you hold it like a dog on a leash, 47 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,159 that you just stick on people, as opposed to it's 48 00:03:42,199 --> 00:03:46,159 a measure by which you sort of you hold the 49 00:03:46,199 --> 00:03:49,520 whole populace accountable equal under the law. Instead, you just 50 00:03:49,639 --> 00:03:51,599 use it like an attack dog, and you know, go 51 00:03:51,639 --> 00:03:56,400 get them Fido. We've got to prevent that. But I 52 00:03:56,719 --> 00:03:59,479 think the way to prevent it is to focus on 53 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,840 the law is broken, to commit the law fair, and 54 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,800 then focus on the most important laws broken in the 55 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,759 commission of these these acts of lawfair such that you 56 00:04:12,919 --> 00:04:15,919 disincentivize it in the future and set an example of 57 00:04:15,919 --> 00:04:17,959 how not to do it. But again, and I think 58 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,040 we should talk about this in more detail, But there 59 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:26,160 has to be a way back from the appearance of reprisal, 60 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:28,560 revenge and the sort of what I refer to as 61 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,000 a kind of carousel of death that leads to a 62 00:04:31,079 --> 00:04:35,439 kind of late Republican you know, prescription lists and triumvirates 63 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,639 and counter triumvirates, and we get after your bad guys 64 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,199 and you get after ours like we have to find 65 00:04:42,199 --> 00:04:43,920 a way out. And that's what I've been thinking and 66 00:04:43,959 --> 00:04:45,120 talking a lot about lately. 67 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: That that's the billion dollar question, isn't it. I mean, 68 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,000 how do we find a way out? Because I mean, 69 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,240 take a look at what's happened over the last four years. 70 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:01,399 You have an outgoing president who came in by saying 71 00:05:01,639 --> 00:05:04,959 that he was going to be the great Unifier. And 72 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,279 I guess what he meant by being the great Unifier 73 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:12,720 was trying everything in his power under the executive branch 74 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,560 to try to unify the American people against Donald Trump, 75 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:23,000 who was his principal, number one political enemy, the left's 76 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:28,279 number one political enemy. And so all of these mechanisms 77 00:05:28,639 --> 00:05:32,199 were used. We saw them before us in the American people, 78 00:05:32,879 --> 00:05:36,279 slowly by degree, I think the vast majority woke up 79 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,439 to what was happening in this country. But the other 80 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,120 side of that is, if it is this tit for 81 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,600 tat as you talk about back and forth, how do 82 00:05:48,639 --> 00:05:52,759 we ever get out of this place of lawfare and 83 00:05:53,199 --> 00:05:57,519 using extra constitutional powers, to say the very least, to 84 00:05:57,519 --> 00:06:01,519 put it generously, to go after and target political enemies. 85 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:06,879 Speaker 2: So I'll say stage one, I think we can reliably 86 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,879 count on being done which is the kind of rhetoric 87 00:06:10,959 --> 00:06:13,120 that Trump employed last time in office and that he 88 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,600 is employing now, and that Pambondi employed today. And what 89 00:06:17,639 --> 00:06:22,879 I'm hearing generally from different, you know, lower level people 90 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,680 headed into the administration is all the right kind of 91 00:06:25,759 --> 00:06:28,399 language and the opposite of what I refer to, and 92 00:06:29,759 --> 00:06:33,639 I really do think that historians should refer to as 93 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,120 Biden's red speech. Do you recall this political speech in Philadelphia? 94 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:38,319 Speaker 3: Oh? 95 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: Yes, it still creates nightmares for some people before they 96 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:45,920 close their eyes and go to sleep at night. 97 00:06:46,079 --> 00:06:52,199 Speaker 2: Yes, Baglin in bloody red, presumably for red, white, and blue, 98 00:06:52,199 --> 00:06:54,480 but it was basically a kind of like trigger color 99 00:06:54,519 --> 00:06:57,199 to get you angry. He had the Marines in the 100 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,480 background for a political speech for the chem pain. It 101 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:05,839 wasn't an official, uh you know, rhetorical duty of the president. 102 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:11,720 It was a political campaign using silhouetted menacing back red 103 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:17,120 lit marines, where he called half the country a bunch 104 00:07:17,199 --> 00:07:19,680 of basically domestic terrorists. 105 00:07:19,839 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: Yes, we already know. 106 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: That that's not what Trump's going to do, right. He 107 00:07:24,839 --> 00:07:28,319 might isolate certain people that he hates that are malefactors, 108 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,720 but he is not going to try to castigate anyone 109 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,399 who's his political opponent in a broad breaststroke as as 110 00:07:36,439 --> 00:07:40,279 the enemy, not just not just in like rhetorical colleges 111 00:07:40,759 --> 00:07:43,920 like Trump will say to oppresses the enemy of the people, right, Like, 112 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,279 that's a pretty insidiaran hilarious, you know, game to play 113 00:07:47,319 --> 00:07:49,959 with the old Stalin phrase, et cetera. Whether it's true 114 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,680 or not, you know, it depends on which media, but 115 00:07:51,839 --> 00:07:57,000 but the but the But that's different than saying you 116 00:07:57,279 --> 00:08:01,519 are domestic terrorists, I e. I am going to send 117 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,759 DHS and the FBI after all of you, which is 118 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:06,920 what he did. So we kind of know already that 119 00:08:07,279 --> 00:08:11,319 Trump's not setting the rhetorical table for that kind of 120 00:08:11,399 --> 00:08:15,839 weaponized to doj and weaponized FBI, which is great, and 121 00:08:15,879 --> 00:08:19,040 that's one. But step two, I think is what you 122 00:08:19,199 --> 00:08:24,360 heard today from Pam Bondi about that we're going to 123 00:08:24,839 --> 00:08:30,600 equally enforce the law right and in good faith. And 124 00:08:30,639 --> 00:08:33,399 I think that's a really key factor. Is it going 125 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,559 to do it in good faith? And what is good faith? 126 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:41,879 What does that phrase mean in Republican American government? Is 127 00:08:41,879 --> 00:08:46,919 something that we should talk about further. But you know, 128 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,000 she had a lot of questions asked of her from 129 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,120 was it Herono? Is that the Hawaiian senator? Am I 130 00:08:54,159 --> 00:08:55,120 saying her name correctly? 131 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: You absolutely are Mazy Herono? Who is That's another topic 132 00:09:00,639 --> 00:09:02,799 for another day altogether, but yes. 133 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,519 Speaker 2: But she basically asked, what if Trump gives you a name, 134 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,480 are you going to go after it? I e use 135 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,440 the law in liam and Shakespeare says and sick the 136 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:15,600 doj upon an enemy named by Trump. And you know, 137 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,840 in one sense that's a trap because she is an 138 00:09:19,919 --> 00:09:23,480 official of the Trump administration, appointed in serving at his 139 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:28,000 pleasure execute the laws. So what Trump should never do 140 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,279 and she shouldn't respond to and she should correct him 141 00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:33,639 when he asks, right as a sort of good and 142 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,440 loyal counselor. But what Trump should be saying is this 143 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,600 kind of crime needs to be prosecuted. I don't care 144 00:09:40,639 --> 00:09:43,399 whose party, I don't care who comes up on the 145 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,399 drag net from this, but this is a first order 146 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:53,399 magnitude prosecutorial discretion number one list. And I think that 147 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,679 in order to re establish good faith and stop lawfare, 148 00:09:58,039 --> 00:10:03,000 the number one crime that is, I think enabling law 149 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:08,039 fair and enabling or rather disabling any trust or any 150 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,039 good faith kept between political parties or between disagreeing American 151 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:17,000 people and politically misaligned you know, governmental officials, be it 152 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,639 one party or the other, be it leadership or civil 153 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,279 service appointees or politicals or not. Is good faith and 154 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,960 that that crime that violates good faith is perjury. That 155 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,200 is to say, I think the Trump administrations should say, 156 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:37,600 we're going to really go after perjurers, right, because if 157 00:10:37,639 --> 00:10:43,440 you can't count on a testimony under oath, right, that's 158 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,039 five years in prison under the Section eighteen of the 159 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,960 US Code, right, like maximum five years in prison if 160 00:10:50,759 --> 00:10:54,399 and I noted that Pamboni mentioned Kevin Klinsmith this morning, 161 00:10:55,519 --> 00:11:03,000 if you commit perjury under oath before a finds a court, 162 00:11:03,039 --> 00:11:07,000 a secret court, the Patriot Act says it's ten years maximum. Right. 163 00:11:07,039 --> 00:11:09,440 So I think you have to go after perjury because 164 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,039 if you really think about it, if you go down 165 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,559 the list, right, there are some Republicans that might get 166 00:11:14,639 --> 00:11:17,279 involved in that kind of prosecutorial issue, and there are 167 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,559 lots of Democrats, and they are a lot of the 168 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:25,320 type of people who manipulated the legal system, evidentiary records, 169 00:11:25,399 --> 00:11:28,639 et cetera in order to do so, and they often 170 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,679 did it through perjurist means. So I think the idea 171 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:37,120 that we're going to re establish trusts and the rule 172 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,320 of law. I think you have to go after and 173 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,200 re establish good faith, go after perjury, and that's like 174 00:11:42,399 --> 00:11:45,639 job one, and that will take out a number of 175 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:52,200 lawfair participants into you know, I think investigations likely prosecutions 176 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,279 for some. I mean, maybe some are innocent, and it's 177 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,960 very you know, a confusing cloud. I have my doubts, 178 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,200 but but you know, everybody gets their day in court 179 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:02,600 and it's until proof and guilty in the courtroom. But 180 00:12:02,639 --> 00:12:07,720 I can still suspect you for a while. So that, 181 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:09,639 to my mind, I think is a way to do it. 182 00:12:09,639 --> 00:12:11,559 Because it's one thing to say we're going to do 183 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,360 equal justice under law, but you still have prosecutorial discretion. 184 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,840 And how do you do that such as you stop 185 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,000 all this crazy lawfare, but you don't look like you're 186 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,720 doing lawfare again and taking vengeance. And I think perjury 187 00:12:24,759 --> 00:12:27,159 is a really good way to frame it for people 188 00:12:27,639 --> 00:12:29,279 that this has to stup. We have to trust one 189 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:29,919 another again. 190 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,399 Speaker 1: I think you raise some very good points with perjury 191 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,399 and putting an emphasis on that. But to a lot 192 00:12:36,399 --> 00:12:39,879 of conservatives, particularly over the last four years in this country, 193 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:44,120 it feels like the people who are being held accountable. 194 00:12:45,039 --> 00:12:47,559 More so, the people who are being targeted, in too 195 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:52,159 many cases unjustly targeted, are conservatives or people who lean 196 00:12:52,279 --> 00:12:56,279 to the right, where the left seems to get a pass. 197 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,240 And I think you can definitely see that in some 198 00:12:59,279 --> 00:13:01,279 of the most high profile cases. I mean, look at 199 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,360 the lawfair against President elect Donald Trump, and then at 200 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,320 the same time, look at the David Weiss report, and 201 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,919 now this guy basically trying to cover his tracks because 202 00:13:12,039 --> 00:13:14,399 he was covering for the president's son. I don't know 203 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,000 how else you see what went on in this country 204 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,080 and some very serious charges against Hunter Biden for a 205 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:25,919 long time without seeing really two tiers of justice. No, 206 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,639 that's right, we talk about two tiers of justice, Matt, 207 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,919 But really that's a misnomer because there's really only justice 208 00:13:34,039 --> 00:13:37,200 and injustice. So how do you get to a state 209 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,559 of mind where conservatives say, Okay, finally someone's going to 210 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:41,639 be held accountable here? 211 00:13:42,159 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 2: So yeah, I do think that a lot of the 212 00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:52,799 Democrats hide behind our love of equal justice and our 213 00:13:53,039 --> 00:13:55,519 realization that we have to both be just and a 214 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,919 peer just right, because you actually have to do both, 215 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,080 or you give license to people to be unjust next time, 216 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,320 and not care about appearing just so they can actually 217 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,480 be menacing to their enemies. Right, That's what the Democrats 218 00:14:06,519 --> 00:14:09,360 actually gave up on appearing just in the last four years. 219 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,960 I think that trump victory is in a certain sense 220 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,399 payback by the American people for them saying, we're not 221 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,440 even gonna try to look just anymore. We're just going 222 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:20,240 to be ugly attackers of our political enemies. So I 223 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:21,720 do think you have to go after them because they're 224 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,399 actually hiding inside this propriety of well, you wouldn't go 225 00:14:25,399 --> 00:14:27,840 after your political opponent. So what I think I'm putting 226 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,799 forward is a kind of mean between the old fashioned 227 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:32,840 sort of like it's all water under the bridge, Like 228 00:14:32,919 --> 00:14:35,799 who cares that they did all these horrible things they 229 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,480 got punished at the ballot box. Like that's not enough, right, 230 00:14:38,879 --> 00:14:42,120 this is this is too this has hit critical mass, 231 00:14:42,159 --> 00:14:45,840 this is too endemic and systemic. You have to actually 232 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:51,039 punish some people and draw a line that said. I 233 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,600 think the kind of line I've I've outlined is is 234 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,399 a good one for starters. Obviously, there are other crimes 235 00:14:58,399 --> 00:15:00,919 that you're gonna have to deal with in a general way, 236 00:15:01,159 --> 00:15:03,679 but in terms of dealing with this upper level sort 237 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,399 of political lawfair shenanigans against the opponents. I think this 238 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,320 is the mode in which you do it is to 239 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,600 re establish trust. That said, with regard to how they 240 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,039 persecute people, just sort of Joe schmoe. You know some 241 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:22,240 guy you know trying to start a five oh one 242 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,360 c three in the irs is messing with them, or 243 00:15:25,559 --> 00:15:29,600 some grandma praying rosers in front of an abortion clinic 244 00:15:29,679 --> 00:15:32,320 or what have you. That kind of thing. I think 245 00:15:32,399 --> 00:15:35,399 is that is that is solved by the absence of 246 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,360 that kind of bizarre persecutorial business. And the payback is 247 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,720 Congress doesn't fund stupid leftist NGO George Soro's backdoor garbage. 248 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,840 So I think that's the tit for tat there. But 249 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:52,559 in terms of prosecution, I do think the lying has 250 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,200 to stop. But it's fundament You cannot have republican self 251 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,879 government without good faith, without fee day, says Cicero would 252 00:16:00,919 --> 00:16:03,519 call it. You have to have this. You have to 253 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,159 rely that people are gonna say what they mean and 254 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,759 mean what they say, especially under oath. Otherwise everything breaks 255 00:16:10,799 --> 00:16:14,840 down and the people can't know what's going on, and 256 00:16:14,879 --> 00:16:19,120 the people can't actually make decisions, and Congress can't oversee 257 00:16:19,159 --> 00:16:22,320 anything in the government, and they can't even make law properly, 258 00:16:23,159 --> 00:16:26,879 and enemies can do whatever they want and destroy people's 259 00:16:27,039 --> 00:16:32,000 careers or attempt to thank God in this instance. But again, 260 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,200 I think there's still yet more to say about you know, 261 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,639 because if you just punish them, and you just go 262 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,360 after them in the way I'm describing, you still look 263 00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:44,360 like you're on the carousel of reprisals unto the end 264 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,480 of the republic. So we should I think we should 265 00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:49,440 talk about clemency, which Biden is putting on a kind 266 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,039 of masterclass in how not to do that right now. 267 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,240 But Trump really needs to be laying out a full vision, 268 00:16:57,799 --> 00:17:00,720 and I think Pam Bondi and Cash Betel, everybody needs 269 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,039 to be on the same page about here is the 270 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:09,440 arc of strictness and clemency, the two balanced together, right 271 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:14,359 where we're going to have a reckoning for these evil lawbreaking, 272 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,480 perjurist things you've done, right, but we're also going to, 273 00:17:18,519 --> 00:17:21,720 on the back end of it, have some reasonable hope 274 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:26,359 of clemency and restoration. So it's not vengeance, it's not 275 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,880 I get to sort of hear the lamentation of the women, 276 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,160 the screaming of the children, and the burning of my 277 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,240 enemy's villages. Right, Like, it can't be that. It can't 278 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,640 be Oda Walker the third taking vengeance right upon the 279 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,640 Roman outposts. Right, it's got to be. We're the civilizational 280 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,440 force and we're going to quell the barbarians who held 281 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,640 office for four years, and we have to be the 282 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,599 bigger men. How to do that? We can talk about more. 283 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 3: Not only does Trump need an eraser, he needs a 284 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,720 lot of them. Watched Out on Wall Street podcast with 285 00:18:01,839 --> 00:18:05,000 Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between 286 00:18:05,039 --> 00:18:07,440 politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. 287 00:18:07,559 --> 00:18:11,279 From banning gas water heaters and banning areas for drilling oil, 288 00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:15,960 Biden's claims for a smooth transition where nonsensical. Trump needs 289 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,119 to start from scratch. Whether it's happening in DC or 290 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,680 down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. 291 00:18:21,759 --> 00:18:23,599 Check out the watch Dot on Wall Street podcast with 292 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,960 Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 293 00:18:30,319 --> 00:18:33,079 Speaker 1: We will, Indeed for barons is a difficult thing. I 294 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,000 want to get into that because Shakespeare wrote a lot 295 00:18:36,039 --> 00:18:41,960 about governments and compacts between peoples as a marriage, and 296 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:47,000 that's what we have. That's the Republic. It's a marriage 297 00:18:47,079 --> 00:18:52,680 of the people, and it's government and a very precious 298 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,880 and particular system of government, which we will delve into 299 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:02,319 further here momentarily. Our guest today is doctor Matthew Mehan, 300 00:19:02,839 --> 00:19:07,400 Associate Dean and Assistant Professor of Government, Graduate School of Government, 301 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:13,200 hales Hillsdale College's Washington, DC campus. We're talking about accountability 302 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,079 and justice in a day and age where accountability has 303 00:19:17,079 --> 00:19:21,759 been difficult to find, and sometimes too often so has justice. 304 00:19:21,799 --> 00:19:25,559 So let's dwell on that point again. That you know, 305 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:32,559 I think about the president that, without a doubt was 306 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:40,079 a master at forbearance, someone who was not necessarily someone 307 00:19:40,079 --> 00:19:44,519 who was devoid of anger. He certainly had his moments. 308 00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:48,720 But Abraham Lincoln and the concept of forbearans in a 309 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:54,880 marriage that absolutely fell apart in the Republic in eighteen sixty. 310 00:19:57,279 --> 00:20:01,000 I don't believe we're at that level. We certainly have 311 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,400 a bad marriage going on in this country. And it 312 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,359 does come down to the principles that you talked about, Matt, 313 00:20:07,519 --> 00:20:13,559 faith and faithlessness. So how you've kind of expounded upon 314 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,200 this clemency is a good way. But where does clemency 315 00:20:18,319 --> 00:20:21,359 begin and rebuilding faithless relationships? 316 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 2: So I think clemency begins. Actually, as I briefly mentioned 317 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,240 in strictness, a lot of people think, oh, if you're 318 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:33,799 strict or you're lenient, like those are those are those 319 00:20:33,839 --> 00:20:39,359 are sort of antonyms, but they're not. Actually if clemency 320 00:20:39,559 --> 00:20:43,720 or leniency with regard to punishment is different than strictness 321 00:20:43,759 --> 00:20:48,960 with regard to establishing facts, right, raising the specter of 322 00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:55,680 guilt and punishment and you know, compelling confessions of wrongdoing 323 00:20:55,799 --> 00:21:02,440 such that people restore themselves in good faith to the community. Right. So, 324 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,440 and then clemency is granted when people are contrite. They 325 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,880 admit their wrongdoing, they say they've done wrong, they admit 326 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:18,640 to the facts. I think people are watching Biden basically 327 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:23,519 give clemency like blanket clemency for eleven years to Hunter 328 00:21:23,599 --> 00:21:26,200 Biden for basically a ton of things which he's not 329 00:21:26,319 --> 00:21:31,359 sorry for, hasn't confessed, doesn't care about, doesn't admit right, 330 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,839 and is basically saving his own hide and you know, 331 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,440 others of his family and et cetera. So although as 332 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,000 some people, my friend and colleigue Henry Olsen is noted 333 00:21:42,319 --> 00:21:44,680 if you do have blanket pardon for those eleven years, 334 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,200 I don't believe you can plead the fifth anymore. Right, 335 00:21:47,279 --> 00:21:51,880 so you actually have to testify. Yes, that's worth noting everyone. 336 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:58,960 But but that's the wrong approach. The right approach is 337 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,920 we're going to be very strict on this perjury problem. 338 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,839 But if you confess to it, right, then then clemency 339 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,240 will be offered if you are sorry and publicly contrite 340 00:22:11,279 --> 00:22:15,200 and say I stepped away from the marriage as you 341 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,000 put it earlier, I left the faith of society where 342 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,039 we trust one another and we do things by the book. 343 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,119 I left that. I am sorry. I want to come 344 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,839 back right, I want to be rehabilitated. And then I 345 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,160 think clemency is especially preferred for people of high profile 346 00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:34,759 who are political opponents. You say, that's not fair, It's 347 00:22:34,799 --> 00:22:39,880 like life ain't fair, right, But justice right does recommend 348 00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:44,160 that you also have the appearance of clemency for people 349 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,799 at the top that everyone can see, right, but only 350 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,400 if they come clean. And I think they still have 351 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,200 to do something, a little community service, a little right, 352 00:22:53,319 --> 00:22:54,839 you know, maybe, and some of them are going to 353 00:22:54,839 --> 00:22:56,559 be or calciltorned about things, and some of them are 354 00:22:56,599 --> 00:22:59,279 going to go to prison, for sure. But I think 355 00:22:59,319 --> 00:23:01,759 you opened the door and say, look, you, I am 356 00:23:01,799 --> 00:23:04,279 not trying to bring you to punishment. I do not 357 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,279 want to see you rot in a jail for three 358 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,240 years for perjury or for subordination to perjury, as some 359 00:23:10,279 --> 00:23:13,079 of these people are guilty of and basically cajoling others 360 00:23:13,079 --> 00:23:18,039 to commit perjury or helping them. Right, I don't want that. 361 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,039 Here's what you can do. I also think that's why 362 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,839 prosecutorial discretion on perjury should be really pick the high 363 00:23:24,839 --> 00:23:28,480 profile cases that you can demonstrate without the need of 364 00:23:28,519 --> 00:23:31,279 their testimony, because otherwise it feels like you're sort of 365 00:23:31,319 --> 00:23:34,440 torturing them with prison to get them to say something. 366 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,160 Maybe that's not true or they don't believe. But you've 367 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,359 got to pick the high profile cases that are like, 368 00:23:39,799 --> 00:23:42,880 we've got you dead to rights. Look at this, it's 369 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,880 so clear. Here's the video and audio and recordings and documents. 370 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,960 You perjured yourself. You know you've done wrong, and you 371 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,119 can say all you want and pretend all you want, 372 00:23:53,599 --> 00:23:56,880 but here it is you're going to prison unless you 373 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,759 cop to it, say you're sorry, and then that we 374 00:24:00,799 --> 00:24:03,559 can have restoration. I think Trump needs to be in 375 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:08,680 the mode both rhetorically and prosecutorially, that my former enemies 376 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,559 are my future friends. Right, that doesn't destroy the friend 377 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,079 enemy distinction. That I know some people who are really 378 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,240 keen on you know, you know, retribution or even revenge, 379 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,640 and I don't think that language is appropriate, the revenge 380 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,839 and vengeance language that vengeance's mind says the lord. But 381 00:24:25,079 --> 00:24:29,200 justice and retributive justice is okay provided it's done correctly. 382 00:24:29,799 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: Right. 383 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 2: But you know, those people who have done grievous harm 384 00:24:36,039 --> 00:24:39,319 to the political system to equal justice under law and 385 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,519 personally Donald Trump and others, I think they they need 386 00:24:43,559 --> 00:24:47,759 to be understood publicly as potential future friends. If they 387 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,480 come clean and admit they're wrong and come back into 388 00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:54,359 community with everybody. 389 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 1: That's the big issue. I mean. I point back to 390 00:24:58,759 --> 00:25:03,400 Abraham Lincoln his first and inaugural address and his second. 391 00:25:03,559 --> 00:25:08,000 It was exactly what you just talked about. We are friends. 392 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:15,960 We are tied together by so many things, and the 393 00:25:16,799 --> 00:25:21,319 principal thing that ties us together is that our forefathers 394 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:27,599 fought and to the death for everything. It came down 395 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:33,079 to their their treasure, their lives, their very lives, so 396 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:38,359 that this nation of freedom could be born, and I'm 397 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:43,039 just curious if you see that kind of rhetoric coming 398 00:25:43,079 --> 00:25:49,240 out of a new Trump administration in his inauguration. 399 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:54,039 Speaker 2: Speech, I mean, we'll see. I know some speech writers 400 00:25:54,079 --> 00:25:58,119 in Trump's orbit, I know a number of them understand 401 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,519 these things well. And I know that Trump has said 402 00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:05,079 from the very moment it was a parent that he 403 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,440 was going to take the electoral College. He said, hey, 404 00:26:08,759 --> 00:26:12,119 I'm very forgiving. I'll give you a third chance. You 405 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,920 know I've given second chance. I'll give third chances. And 406 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,920 then he goes but not a fourth typical Trump. But 407 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,799 but but I do think I do think he's up 408 00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:23,640 for it. I think what you heard from Pam Bondi 409 00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:27,200 this morning was very promising in this way. And I 410 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:33,960 think Trump Trump's general, he's you know, former Democrat. He's 411 00:26:34,039 --> 00:26:37,720 kind of a huggy beard guy who wants everybody to 412 00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:40,519 be pals, and he wants you know, he wants to 413 00:26:40,559 --> 00:26:44,160 be a populist. He wants the majority of the population 414 00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:47,599 and then some. He wants everybody to be to be healed. 415 00:26:47,599 --> 00:26:50,799 And he wants America to love itself and love each 416 00:26:50,839 --> 00:26:53,039 other and love him right. He wants all those things. 417 00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:57,039 So I think he's he's he's in that direction. Uh, 418 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,920 and he's up for it. The and Cony and you know, 419 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,839 you brought up the Civil warris and we're not that bad. 420 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,599 I think we're not that bad in one sense, but 421 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,799 in another sense, we're passive, aggressively worse. Right, there's something 422 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,079 sort of innocently and simplistically candid about just like, well, 423 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,720 if we didn't get we wanted, it's a shooting war. Right. 424 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:22,119 There's something grotesquely duplicitous about like, well, we didn't get 425 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,359 we want, so we're going to malign you, change documents, 426 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,799 spy on you, illegally, frame you for for crimes you 427 00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:36,119 didn't commit, bleed your finances unjustly, et cetera, et cetera. 428 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,519 Right Like, and I think I'll take that hypocrisy over 429 00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:43,480 a shooting war. But it is bad, It's real bad, 430 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,680 and people need to stop it. And so I do 431 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,079 think that there needs to be the specter of real 432 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,680 prosecution needs to be brought forward and and and laid 433 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,160 equally upon perjurers. I think think this will hit a 434 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,960 couple of Republicans, right, I mean, I don't think it's 435 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,599 just democrats. I think it's a crime. You know, show 436 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,119 me the crime, and I'll show you an equal enforcement 437 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,680 of it. That's the model, right. I don't want to 438 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,279 show the man and find the crime. But it just 439 00:28:15,319 --> 00:28:20,279 so happens that the lawfare people did do a lot 440 00:28:20,319 --> 00:28:23,720 of this perjuriousness. And so I do think it's two 441 00:28:23,759 --> 00:28:27,880 birds one stone, but you actually do the work of 442 00:28:28,079 --> 00:28:32,119 justice while not framing it as a reprisal, because it 443 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,880 isn't because you have to stop this kind of criminal perjury. 444 00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:40,039 Speaker 1: But I think it's important as well, and I agree 445 00:28:40,079 --> 00:28:43,799 with you. I mean, you have to stop the perjury. 446 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,000 You have to stop this game that we've been playing, 447 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,680 and really the left has been playing it better than 448 00:28:51,839 --> 00:28:53,960 the right for a long time, because I think there 449 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,440 are a lot of people on the right who still 450 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,640 believe that, you know, there is such a thing as 451 00:28:59,799 --> 00:29:04,279 a moral compass, you know, a golden rule based on 452 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,599 you know, values that have been so important to this country. 453 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,079 You know, treat people the way you want to be treated, 454 00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:14,640 that kind of thing, and that it's equal justice under 455 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,319 the law. Well, as we know, that's simply not the 456 00:29:18,319 --> 00:29:20,680 case from what we've experienced over the last four years. 457 00:29:21,359 --> 00:29:26,559 And I get it. I understand that people are angry 458 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,839 They're not satisfied simply that their guy won. They're not 459 00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:38,920 satisfied simply that they may have you know, the trifecta 460 00:29:39,279 --> 00:29:41,519 in government when it comes to control of the Senate, 461 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,440 the House, and the White House. They really truly want 462 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,759 to see people go to jail, and they never really 463 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,680 see that. They never see people on the left, in particular, 464 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:59,400 go to jail. If we're talking about accountability, how how 465 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,759 else do you you walk that line and with that 466 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,759 the whole clemency notion. Do you believe that President Trump 467 00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:11,400 should begin with the victims of the law fair, with 468 00:30:11,519 --> 00:30:14,880 the victims of the weaponized judicial system. 469 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:22,079 Speaker 2: I mean, I think certainly anyone who's been hit like that. 470 00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:27,920 I know there's talk of the non violent jaystixers. You know, 471 00:30:28,039 --> 00:30:32,079 you've got these these people who've been hauled in using 472 00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:36,039 rico when they're like praying in front of an abortion 473 00:30:36,119 --> 00:30:40,720 clinic or like absolutely bumped into someone. The sort of 474 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,119 man on the street who's been lawfaired for political reasons. 475 00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:48,960 I think that's right. I think I don't know what 476 00:30:49,119 --> 00:30:54,359 the how the law shakes out with regard to you know, 477 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,839 civil suits against the government for some of this, you know, 478 00:30:58,039 --> 00:31:08,119 miss this miss misappropriating of DJ and FBI personnel to 479 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,680 go after people like this. But I think there should 480 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,400 be payouts if appropriate, you know, like I think all 481 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,720 of those things are true. But listen, I want to 482 00:31:18,759 --> 00:31:23,079 back up on one thing. I'm talking about what Trump, Pambondi, 483 00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:27,559 and the administration ought to do. But there's another party here. 484 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,480 It takes two to tango. I think some on the 485 00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:34,759 left are so proud, so entrenched in their vice of 486 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:40,599 lying and their bizarre and unwarranted moral sanctimony, that they 487 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,640 will go down and try to again lie as Fae 488 00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:46,680 martyrs in prison. I think we will see some people 489 00:31:46,759 --> 00:31:50,359 go to prison if what I'm saying is done right. 490 00:31:50,799 --> 00:31:54,599 But I think that the Trump administration is responsible for 491 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,799 setting a table such that we can have a Thanksgiving 492 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,039 feast again right and knowing full well that some people 493 00:32:03,319 --> 00:32:07,559 won't take it right. Some people that's that's the kind 494 00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:10,640 of criminal that doesn't get clemency. You don't give clemency 495 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,079 to hardened thugs who are smiling, grinning and perpetuating their 496 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,519 lives even though they've been proven powerfully and beyond the 497 00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:21,960 shadow of a doubt that they did the wrong. 498 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,559 Speaker 1: Well, we we don't Matt Joe Biden does, as the 499 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:31,000 record shows record number of commuted sentences or you know, 500 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:36,279 clemency orders or absolute pardons to people who did some 501 00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:40,200 very very horrible things to other people. 502 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 2: I justly corrected, Matt. I'd say that that's a normative statement, 503 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,000 not not a not a reportorial statement. 504 00:32:48,119 --> 00:32:50,279 Speaker 1: Certainly, certainly so. 505 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 2: But but we are the good guys and we need 506 00:32:52,759 --> 00:32:55,960 to remain such. And I do think that this country 507 00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:01,319 is still in a state of flux, and it's worth noting. 508 00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:04,200 This feels like a big victory, but I warn everybody 509 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,920 that one of the things that every wise man predicted 510 00:33:08,359 --> 00:33:12,279 centuries and centuries ago, and you know, ten years ago, 511 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:18,079 is that the people, when they're frustrated, they carene They 512 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,240 can change their mind more quickly than we would like, 513 00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:25,359 and they will part ways if we get ugly and 514 00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:28,920 start looking like what they just rejected. So we have 515 00:33:29,119 --> 00:33:32,799 to both be just and appear just. And it's not 516 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,720 enough to say, well, I am doing justice because they 517 00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:36,519 did wrong. It's like you've got to do it in 518 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,920 just the right way, because if you look unjust by 519 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,759 the way, you are unjust. Because you're teaching everybody that 520 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,799 it doesn't matter whether you're just or not because they 521 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,599 can't fully understand your argument, so you have to do both. 522 00:33:49,759 --> 00:33:51,960 And it's the hat trick of the good guy, but 523 00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:53,920 it makes you for it puts you in a much 524 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,640 stronger position in the end, which is why the left, 525 00:33:56,759 --> 00:33:59,480 having departed from this, are in the weak position they 526 00:33:59,480 --> 00:33:59,920 are in now. 527 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: That is absolutely right, and that brings us to a 528 00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:05,359 point I think we would be remiss if we didn't 529 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,519 bring up, and that is the storytellers. And you who 530 00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:12,480 have been in the practice of the humanities and literature 531 00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:19,280 for all of your academic life, the storytellers have lost 532 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:22,920 their influence. And when I say the storytellers, I mean 533 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,760 the main storytellers in corporate media. I like to call 534 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,440 them the accomplice media, prov de press, however you want 535 00:34:29,519 --> 00:34:31,960 to say it. But they've been in on this heist 536 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,000 for some time. And that's not just what a lot 537 00:34:36,039 --> 00:34:39,599 of Americans think. That's what we have actually experienced, and 538 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,800 we know that by you know a lot of evidence 539 00:34:43,119 --> 00:34:46,639 showing that to us. We know that through things like 540 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,760 the Twitter files, and we know about the congressional hearings 541 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,440 and the documents that have come out of the censorship, 542 00:34:52,519 --> 00:34:55,360 all of that sort of thing. But how do you 543 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:02,559 get at that balance that we're talking about holding wrongdoers 544 00:35:02,639 --> 00:35:08,639 accountable but also that sense of we may be enemies now, 545 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,280 but tomorrow we very well could be friends. When you 546 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,559 have such an aggressive corporate media that has done and 547 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,840 will do everything it can to paint Donald Trump as 548 00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:27,239 the tyrant that the Democrat Party in this country tried 549 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,440 to make as the main talking point in this last 550 00:35:31,519 --> 00:35:32,480 presidential election. 551 00:35:34,199 --> 00:35:37,639 Speaker 2: Well, one, they're going to keep trying. Two, I do 552 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,480 think there has been a sea change that no one 553 00:35:41,599 --> 00:35:43,360 believes you anymore, No one cares. 554 00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: Right. 555 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 2: What you're telling us is basically what a group of 556 00:35:47,559 --> 00:35:51,960 leftists think, and that's not politically germane anymore. And that's 557 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,000 why you see their ratings is tank right now, sure 558 00:35:55,639 --> 00:35:58,400 in large parts. So in one sense, they're still going 559 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,719 to try that. My point is, don't give them any 560 00:36:02,039 --> 00:36:05,920 meritorious attacks. Uh And and you know, try to go 561 00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:09,400 for revenge. Uh And because that would be tyrannical. I 562 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,559 think actually to do that, that's not what justice is 563 00:36:12,679 --> 00:36:16,360 and it's not how it should be applied. But but uh, 564 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,199 I with regard to that, there were a couple of 565 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,280 things in your in your your question one of them 566 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,039 was what do you do with the big tech media collusion? Right? Well, 567 00:36:27,119 --> 00:36:30,639 in a certain sense, like if somebody, if somebody is 568 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,760 doing something like that, then they should be hauled up 569 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,599 to Congress and asked questions like, hey, you said this 570 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,119 and the other thing can lead this any other thing 571 00:36:38,119 --> 00:36:39,679 and blah blah blah blah blah, and you were working 572 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,400 with the federal government, yes or no, zuck. And if 573 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:49,320 they lie under oath, well, hey, we just established like 574 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,159 let's imagine they took my advice or something even better. Uh, 575 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,239 guess who's guess what he's not gonna do next time, 576 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,000 or guess what the Twitter CEO is not gonna do. 577 00:37:00,039 --> 00:37:02,719 They're not going to lie about what's going on, and 578 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,880 then those things will be exposed more efficiently and more quickly, 579 00:37:06,679 --> 00:37:10,960 because the risks are much higher deceiving people while they 580 00:37:11,119 --> 00:37:15,280 do these kinds of underhanded manipulations of media, which I 581 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,119 think inevitably always require lying, and then when you actually 582 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,320 investigate them. And this is why the oversight power and 583 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,800 under oath testimony before Congress is such an important instrument 584 00:37:27,159 --> 00:37:30,360 that we have under law and according to our constitution. 585 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,920 Right like that is a very powerful antiseptic, it's daylight. 586 00:37:38,199 --> 00:37:44,559 But if you can't trust oath sworn testimony, daylight can't 587 00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:47,119 get into any of that. So that's why I do 588 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,920 think that's another part of the benefits of what I'm 589 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:51,679 suggesting here. 590 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, but your Mark Zuckerberg's and others in the 591 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,119 social media sphere, they saw the writing on the wall, 592 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,400 they saw it growing and growing, the momentum for Donald Trump, 593 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,519 and then they certainly saw the election results. Do you 594 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:14,320 believe the mia culpas coming from big tech, from the 595 00:38:14,559 --> 00:38:15,800 likes of Zuckerberg. 596 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,599 Speaker 2: And those look believe them? It depends on what I 597 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,280 think they are, But I believe them for what they are. 598 00:38:24,599 --> 00:38:28,599 Every political community has really good people, a bunch of 599 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,679 good people, right, and then a bunch of goodish people, 600 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:33,960 and then some bad people. 601 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:34,559 Speaker 3: Right. 602 00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:38,039 Speaker 2: The goodish people and the bad people will look and 603 00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:40,800 see what the really good people are telling the good 604 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,519 people that we're all going to do together, and if 605 00:38:43,559 --> 00:38:45,559 they think they can get away with something else, they'll 606 00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:47,840 try it. But if they realize they can't anymore, they're 607 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,280 gonna pretend to be like the good people. Right. So 608 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,559 I don't know what's in Zuck's heart, but I'm very dubious, 609 00:38:57,119 --> 00:39:00,320 But I don't mind if he wants to play sort 610 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,639 of the hypocrite and tack. But my point is, let's 611 00:39:04,639 --> 00:39:09,199 say we really want him to never do this again. Right, Well, 612 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,039 it seems to me that if there is a sort 613 00:39:11,079 --> 00:39:14,960 of rollout of like if you perjured yourself, you're sort 614 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,599 of unnoticed for prosecution, and you know, prosecution, prosecutorial discretion, 615 00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:26,239 right looks around and says, who's really sorry? So if 616 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,039 Zuck goes on Joe Rogan and says some like gen 617 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,320 X right of center bro stuff, that might not be 618 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,320 quite enough to demonstrate that maybe you maybe you don't 619 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,440 need prosecution or investigation. And I don't know what Zuck did, 620 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,480 and I'm not trying to say he's clearly a perjurer, 621 00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:47,840 as my dim memory serves that he was pretty shaky 622 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,239 about what was going on testimony before Congress, but I 623 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,559 don't know which ones were under oath. So don't get 624 00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:56,440 me wrong, I would want to make sure I get 625 00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:59,519 my ducks in a row before calling him a perjurer. 626 00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:02,199 Say it's the case, like you know or someone else 627 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,639 I do. I do think that even the specter of 628 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,000 this kind of sort of thoughtful here's a crime that 629 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:17,719 we're going to manage because it's so serious that that 630 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,440 that will have a salutary effect. And you know, people like, 631 00:40:21,599 --> 00:40:23,840 let me demonstrate how much, Let me change even more, 632 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,679 let me put my money where my mouth is, because 633 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,159 so far all he's done is put his mouth where 634 00:40:27,199 --> 00:40:29,360 his money is. But putting your money where your mouth 635 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,960 is a different activity. And we'll see, we'll see. 636 00:40:32,679 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: A close with with this point, and get your your 637 00:40:35,519 --> 00:40:41,119 thoughts on it. The editor in chief of this fine publication, 638 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:47,440 the federalist Mally Hemingway, wrote this recently on a actually 639 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,079 it was an ex post on a conversation that you 640 00:40:51,199 --> 00:40:56,039 had just like we're having today. You know, justice in 641 00:40:56,639 --> 00:41:00,760 in unjust time for barons in a in a time 642 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,760 period of deep division. She said this, dismissing the corruption 643 00:41:06,639 --> 00:41:11,039 is not justice, but neither is vendetta. Justice is showing 644 00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:16,800 that corruption has consequences. I think everything that we've talked about, 645 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,639 that we've laid out over the last forty minutes comes 646 00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:27,199 down to what Molly has sent out in this sext message. 647 00:41:28,679 --> 00:41:33,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, she's a wise woman. I agree. I know. I 648 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:40,519 can't stress enough what happens when government doesn't do its job. 649 00:41:42,559 --> 00:41:48,679 It's misrule, mischief and injustice right mischief. The chiefs aren't 650 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,400 doing what they're supposed to do. Right. And if we 651 00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:58,880 don't actually say that really serious crime, and I can't 652 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,400 think of a more serious one, then perjury, to be honest, 653 00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:08,199 really serious crime will not be tolerated and will be 654 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,639 punished to the full extent of the law or prosecuted 655 00:42:10,679 --> 00:42:12,840 to the full extent of the law, and then the 656 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,840 book will be thrown. And if you are contrite, there 657 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:21,239 will be clemency. That's the process right by which you 658 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,239 actually I think, show everyone that their demands we talk about. 659 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,119 The punishment is the process that's real. Is the punishment 660 00:42:29,159 --> 00:42:32,639 to put someone through a three year trial and then yeah, 661 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,039 you might commute the sentence or reduce it, shrink it down. 662 00:42:36,159 --> 00:42:40,360 Maybe in certain proper instances, it's totally plenary, given clemency 663 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,360 and the person has no further repercussions because they were 664 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,880 so contrite and it was so clear. But that's I 665 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,920 think what needs to happen something like that. There has 666 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,880 to be strictness in the prosecution of certain high crimes, 667 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,880 and then there has to be clemency after the strictness. 668 00:42:56,079 --> 00:42:59,440 But there is justice and then mercy like that's how 669 00:42:59,519 --> 00:43:02,239 it should go. There's an order to things and people 670 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,440 often and why so many people are dissatisfied is they 671 00:43:05,519 --> 00:43:08,840 put a fake version of mercy first, and there's no 672 00:43:09,199 --> 00:43:09,960 justice to follow. 673 00:43:11,559 --> 00:43:14,519 Speaker 1: Everything that you just said there reminds me that it 674 00:43:14,639 --> 00:43:18,840 is difficult to have faith in your government, in your society, 675 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,639 in your life if you do not have a faith foundation. 676 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,079 That's a conversation for a different time. It's a bigger 677 00:43:27,159 --> 00:43:29,639 thing than you and I, and a bigger thing even 678 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,039 than what we've been talking about. But it is at 679 00:43:32,119 --> 00:43:37,360 the heart of all that we talk about. But these 680 00:43:38,039 --> 00:43:39,199 are faithless times. 681 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 2: Yes, I can't help my Much of the teaching I 682 00:43:44,079 --> 00:43:47,000 have done and the reading I've done in the tradition 683 00:43:47,119 --> 00:43:50,559 tells me that when you keep lowercase F faith, as 684 00:43:50,599 --> 00:43:54,639 you put it earlier, when you keep lowercase F faith, 685 00:43:55,039 --> 00:43:58,559 it is the training for upper case F faith. Yes, right, 686 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,000 it is actually the practice of the one, and I 687 00:44:01,159 --> 00:44:02,920 think the two are mutually reinforcing. 688 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,679 Speaker 1: Indeed, very well said, well, I very much appreciate your 689 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,719 time today. It's an engaging conversation, it's a critical conversation. 690 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,760 It's something that we are going to see unfold before 691 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,760 our eyes in the coming days, weeks, and months. But 692 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,239 I very much appreciate you joining us to talk it 693 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:20,639 all out. 694 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, thank you for having me you be. 695 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: That's what this is all about, to talk it all 696 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,119 out the big issues of the day. Thanks to my 697 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:37,000 guest today, doctor Matthew Mehan, Associate Dean, Assistant Professor of Government, 698 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:42,480 Graduate School of Government at Hillsdale College's Washington, DC campus, 699 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,519 you've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 700 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,920 I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll 701 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,159 be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of 702 00:44:54,199 --> 00:44:56,360 freedom and anxious for the frame. 703 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:03,320 Speaker 3: Do do