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Speaker 1: Erow dot net a r r o e dot net.

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It is the home of the Daily Mess. Come on,

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we all have questions. We ask them every day. Our

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fault and our problem is is that we don't write

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them down and finish out the research project. So what

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do we do? We mop around? Oh it's so boring.

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Look that up. Why are we bored with life? See?

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That's what the Daily Mess is all about, is asking

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real people questions and getting real people answers. Only on

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ero dot net a r r oe dot net. Enjoy

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your exploration. Hello and good morning. How are you doing today?

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Speaker 2: I am doing great. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Oh you're the person to talk with right now, because

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you cover so many amazing things that people want to

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talk about. I just don't think they know how to

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get there. So somebody has to really kind of start

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that conversation and then we're gonna jump in and make

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it a part of our circles. All right.

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Speaker 2: That sounds great?

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Speaker 1: I mean because right right there on the title of

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the book it says secure love Now in my life.

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That meant, uh, oh, here I go again. I'm going

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to be codependent. Oh I got to have that secure love.

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What am I gonna do a guy without love? Oh

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my god? How many people freak out because they think

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they've got to hit that level of play secure love? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I mean people. Do you know people do kind of

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freak out sometimes? Are you saying, I'm sorry, can you

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repeat the question, because I'm not sure what you're saying.

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What happens if you're afraid of secure love or you're

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just desperate to have secure love? Oh?

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Speaker 1: No, different thing. When I see secure love right away,

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I'm going, oh, dude, you've been accused of being codependent

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your entire life, and so when I try to break

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it down, I try to defrag it. Then it's like,

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do it's not that I'm I'm you know somebody who

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is codependent. I'm just seeking secure love. That's all I want.

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And so so I think a lot of people get

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the bad rap because that's all they want is secure love.

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Speaker 2: That's true, and it's really frustrating because we all need

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secure love and connection and codependence totally different things. You know,

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codependency is actually a symptom of disconnection, and you know

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all humans go ahead.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, I'm a green. I'm a green. You're

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shocking me by when you say disconnection. I'm on your street.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, you know, we all have the same basic

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relationship needs. We all need to feel emotionally safe and connected.

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And you know, I love this quote. Underneath all the

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surface details of a relationship, all couples are ever really

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asking is will you be there for me when I

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really need you? And if that answer is no, then

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of course someone is going to feel desperate and you know,

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start clinging that that behavior isn't going to work for

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them usually, but the need is there, and how can

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we fault people for feeling uncomfortable when their needs aren't

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being met? So my job is to come in and

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help people learn how to name and communicate their emotional

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needs and respond to each other in that place. And

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that's what I mean by you know, doing learning to

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do vulnerable. And what I found is that when couples

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learn to do vulnerability, their needs start getting met and

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nobody has to be codependent anymore.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that you cover inside this book,

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and I'm going to be the freak that's going to

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bring it up. But the format is what I call defragging.

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In other words, you set up the subject because we've

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got the question, and now you're going to deliver an answer.

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I love the way that you use a defragging moment

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here because you do break it up so that you

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want to have a better understanding of where we are

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so that we can grow forward.

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Speaker 2: I like that term defragging. Yes, I mean I think

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that I'm trying to break things down and help people understand.

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Not just you know, here's the words to say, but

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here's the communication is the delivery system of emotional safety.

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We talk a lot about communication, but if there's no

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emotional safety in that communication, even the best communication skills

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will fall flat. So my work is about giving people

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the words and concepts around vulnerability so they can actually

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get into that heart place to meet each other in connection.

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Speaker 1: If I only would have had this book when I

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was eighteen on up, and the reason why is because

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you know, there are many things that are covered in

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this book that I needed to know as that eighteen

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year old who got married illegally in the state of Montana.

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But the thing about it is, though, is that we

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all have this falsehood of what love is. We all

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think it's good sex all the time. That's such bull.

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That is such bull. As you get older, it's like

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you know, I bought you know, we shared a gift together.

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That is the greatest feeling on the planet right now.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, finding secure love isn't about intensity.

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It's about sustainability and learning to use vulnerable communication when

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you need it to bond and work through conflict.

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Speaker 1: You talk about shame spiraling, Oh my god, show me

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somebody who does not do the shame spiraling. And the

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thing about it is, though, is that they come up

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with these characters and designs in their mind of who

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now they are, so it's almost like they go through

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a transition in order to you know, take on the

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shame spiraling, right, yeah, shame.

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Speaker 2: You know, for a lot of people, shame is the

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way that they motivate themselves to do better so they

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can feel safe and acceptable in the world and not

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experience rejection. It's not a very good way to be motivated,

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but it can be, you know, a second best option

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for people who haven't found other ways to connect. And

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so what happens is is when they start taking an

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information that is threatening their view of themselves or the

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way they think others are viewing them, it's terrifying for them,

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and that's when their body goes into a shame spiral

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and they just start scrambling around doing everything possible to

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protect their view of self. And what happens is is,

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now you know someone is coming to them with an

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emotional need, their fear takes over. They're not able to

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put that to the side and lean in, and then

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they you know, end up not because they're broken and

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not because they're trying to be bad, but then they

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end up abandoning their partner because their shame has has

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a louder voice. So we really do need to get

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in there and start healing that shame. And actually that's

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my next book, it's Healing Shame.

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Speaker 1: Oh good, because I want to talk about the triggering

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then when it comes to shame, because just the sound

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of somebody's voice or the of the scentse of perfume

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will somebody, you know, will send somebody into a moment

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of shame. And and so I want to know about

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that shame because it is such a dangerous, dangerous tool.

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Plus it's also a border.

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Speaker 2: It absolutely is a border. And you know the thing

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about shame is that it needs it needs light shined

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on it, and it needs connection. So it's not you know,

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relationships aren't doomed because partners have shame. They're doomed when

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they're when partners aren't using shame as a connecting point

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and using you know, healing. We need to do our

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own self work right. But it's amazing how much partners

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can actually help each other heal through their shame when

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they learn how to you know, show up and lean

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into each other and validate each other. So I'm always

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working on the self work part over here and the

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relationship part over here and together. And that's why I

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love working with couples is together. That's such a complete

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package for just healing people on individual levels.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Julie Manano coming

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up next the name of her new book, Secure Love.

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She also has a podcast, Julie Manano. Is there anything

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wrong with falling madly, deeply in love with your best friend? Yeah,

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she's become my wife of thirty three years. But the

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thing is, though, is that first and foremost she is

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my best friend ahead of everything.

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Speaker 2: I think that's lovely. I think that's beautiful. I think

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the more connecting points we have, the better I feel

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the same way about my partner, you know, I think

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it's more about, you know, are we able to meet

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each other's emotional needs? That's really the big question.

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Speaker 1: God, I would love to sit in one of your

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rooms where there's a lot of people because I met you.

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There'd be a lot of amen's and yes this and

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oh my god, keivid to me, you're speaking my language.

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Oh my god. I mean, people have got to be

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reacting to you this way, Julie, because you're really bringing

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a book here that is us, this is who we

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are today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's been very humbling. I think people

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are really open to this information. I think people really

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want to get the message I'm not broken. I am

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reacting to very understandable relationship fears that I picked up

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over the course of a lifetime. And most people do

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need to learn how to do this kind of communication.

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It's not intuitive. So what I have found is that

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people are scared and lacking knowledge around how to be vulnerable,

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and both of those things can be dealt with. You know,

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the vulnerability is a learned skill, and we can use

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that to start soothing the fears.

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Speaker 1: You put a lot of attention on avoid always and

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never ooh, those are like crutches for us. Are we

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always and never.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, those are really two good subjects changing words, because

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the second someone hears the words always are never, they're

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just going their brain is going to go into arguing

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that and presenting the exceptions to that, and then now

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we're not talking about the original problem anymore, and then

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we're leaving each other emotionally. So I definitely want to

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help people figure out what are you really trying to

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say when it's always a never? Sometimes one cure for

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that is just you know what, maybe it's not always

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or never, but it's enough for me that it's getting

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in the way of my ability to feel safe and close.

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It's hard for that to be argued with.

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Speaker 1: Aren't you drawing a line in the sand? Though? When

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you put focus on self regulation and coregulation, it's like, ah, okay,

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I guess we have to work together. We've got to

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be co together here.

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Speaker 2: Both are so important. You know, we come into the

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world needing coregulation in orders to learn how to self

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regulate as babies, and sadly, you know, many people didn't

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get that experience consist throughout childhood where they did have

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someone helping them regulate through co regulation. So now we're adults,

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and we do have a responsibility to learn how to

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self regulate. And if two people can't self regulate, it's

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going to be very difficult for them to co regulate

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each other. At the same time, coregulation is actually many

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many times more powerful for self regular for someone to

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feel regulated than self regulation. So we need self regulation

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to get to co regulation. But once we can get

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to co regulation, it's actually more effective.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know what happens after that? All of

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a sudden, here we go again, back into that word trigger.

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But this is where I want listeners and readers to go.

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You've got the anatomy of a trigger. Finally somebody talks

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to us about the real truth about triggers.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, triggers are a moment and in one

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thirty second of a second, there are so many layers

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in that trigger that when couples and partners can learn

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to understand all these layers, and because it happens so fast, right,

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you get triggered and before you even have time to think,

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you're going into reaction. So my work in this anatomy

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of a trigger concept is helping people stretch this out,

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slow it down. You're having a threatening thought go through

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your mind. You're having a meaning, you're having a bodily experience,

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You've got vulnerable emotions, you've got protective feelings coming in

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and piling on top of that. I know this sounds

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like a lot, but it actually makes things much more

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simple when you can see them for what they really

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are and learn how to work with all those pieces

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and more importantly, communicate about the real things going on

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inside of you. Because what happens is if we're not

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getting down into the real core of these triggers and

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the real vulnerability, only other alternative is to stay stuck

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in anger and anxiety and get locked up in these

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negative cycles.

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Speaker 1: You know, the longer word. Together, we all come up

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with these different things that we say that we kind

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of laugh about, but at the same time it's almost

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like an idiom where it's like this is effective. And

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I'll give you two good examples. One of them is

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I knew what you were when I picked you up.

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And then that's usually when I supply a line back going, well,

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you didn't marry Jesus, so you didn't get somebody perfect. Okay,

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well let's work on this. So I mean it's like

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I mean the longer you stay together, the more those

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little idioms kind of play a fun game to play.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And so you know, again, what is really trying

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to be said there? I mean that is very very indirect,

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unclear communication. When someone says I knew who you were,

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what they're saying is is I have felt emotionally abandoned

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in this relationship and it's hurt so much and I

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don't know how to get through. And so I'm going

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to find all of these ways to say things that

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might get your attention even if they hurt you, because

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I'm so desperate to be heard.

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Speaker 1: Wow, where can people go to find out more about you?

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Because ten minutes with you is nowhere near enough time.

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So I want them to go, oh, where you are

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so that we can meet them half the way and

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then you guys can create a journey together.

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Speaker 2: That sounds lovely. I have my book Secure Love out

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on paperback as of yesterday. Find it anywhere books are sold.

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My website the Secure Relationship dot Com, and I do

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have a podcast called the Secure Love Podcast where I

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walk a Real Couple, where I'm season three a Real

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Couple through twenty sessions of therapy. That is the reflection

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it's the work that I present in the book. So

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the book is a reflection of the work that I

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do with couples, and the podcast is me walking a

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couple through the work I present in the book. For

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those who want to deeper dive and see how this

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work actually plays out in real.

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Speaker 1: Life, you are so in the right place at the

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right time. Please come back to this show anytime in

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the future. It doesn't have to be Valentine's Day or anything.

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Love is every.

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Speaker 2: Day, absolutely every day, small moment.

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Speaker 1: Yea, I love it. You'd be brilliant today.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, you too. Thank you so much for Mother