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your exploration. Hello and good morning. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2: I am doing great. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Oh you're the person to talk with right now, because
you cover so many amazing things that people want to
talk about. I just don't think they know how to
get there. So somebody has to really kind of start
that conversation and then we're gonna jump in and make
it a part of our circles. All right.
Speaker 2: That sounds great?
Speaker 1: I mean because right right there on the title of
the book it says secure love Now in my life.
That meant, uh, oh, here I go again. I'm going
to be codependent. Oh I got to have that secure love.
What am I gonna do a guy without love? Oh
my god? How many people freak out because they think
they've got to hit that level of play secure love? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I mean people. Do you know people do kind of
freak out sometimes? Are you saying, I'm sorry, can you
repeat the question, because I'm not sure what you're saying.
What happens if you're afraid of secure love or you're
just desperate to have secure love? Oh?
Speaker 1: No, different thing. When I see secure love right away,
I'm going, oh, dude, you've been accused of being codependent
your entire life, and so when I try to break
it down, I try to defrag it. Then it's like,
do it's not that I'm I'm you know somebody who
is codependent. I'm just seeking secure love. That's all I want.
And so so I think a lot of people get
the bad rap because that's all they want is secure love.
Speaker 2: That's true, and it's really frustrating because we all need
secure love and connection and codependence totally different things. You know,
codependency is actually a symptom of disconnection, and you know
all humans go ahead.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, I'm a green. I'm a green. You're
shocking me by when you say disconnection. I'm on your street.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, you know, we all have the same basic
relationship needs. We all need to feel emotionally safe and connected.
And you know, I love this quote. Underneath all the
surface details of a relationship, all couples are ever really
asking is will you be there for me when I
really need you? And if that answer is no, then
of course someone is going to feel desperate and you know,
start clinging that that behavior isn't going to work for
them usually, but the need is there, and how can
we fault people for feeling uncomfortable when their needs aren't
being met? So my job is to come in and
help people learn how to name and communicate their emotional
needs and respond to each other in that place. And
that's what I mean by you know, doing learning to
do vulnerable. And what I found is that when couples
learn to do vulnerability, their needs start getting met and
nobody has to be codependent anymore.
Speaker 1: One of the things that you cover inside this book,
and I'm going to be the freak that's going to
bring it up. But the format is what I call defragging.
In other words, you set up the subject because we've
got the question, and now you're going to deliver an answer.
I love the way that you use a defragging moment
here because you do break it up so that you
want to have a better understanding of where we are
so that we can grow forward.
Speaker 2: I like that term defragging. Yes, I mean I think
that I'm trying to break things down and help people understand.
Not just you know, here's the words to say, but
here's the communication is the delivery system of emotional safety.
We talk a lot about communication, but if there's no
emotional safety in that communication, even the best communication skills
will fall flat. So my work is about giving people
the words and concepts around vulnerability so they can actually
get into that heart place to meet each other in connection.
Speaker 1: If I only would have had this book when I
was eighteen on up, and the reason why is because
you know, there are many things that are covered in
this book that I needed to know as that eighteen
year old who got married illegally in the state of Montana.
But the thing about it is, though, is that we
all have this falsehood of what love is. We all
think it's good sex all the time. That's such bull.
That is such bull. As you get older, it's like
you know, I bought you know, we shared a gift together.
That is the greatest feeling on the planet right now.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, finding secure love isn't about intensity.
It's about sustainability and learning to use vulnerable communication when
you need it to bond and work through conflict.
Speaker 1: You talk about shame spiraling, Oh my god, show me
somebody who does not do the shame spiraling. And the
thing about it is, though, is that they come up
with these characters and designs in their mind of who
now they are, so it's almost like they go through
a transition in order to you know, take on the
shame spiraling, right, yeah, shame.
Speaker 2: You know, for a lot of people, shame is the
way that they motivate themselves to do better so they
can feel safe and acceptable in the world and not
experience rejection. It's not a very good way to be motivated,
but it can be, you know, a second best option
for people who haven't found other ways to connect. And
so what happens is is when they start taking an
information that is threatening their view of themselves or the
way they think others are viewing them, it's terrifying for them,
and that's when their body goes into a shame spiral
and they just start scrambling around doing everything possible to
protect their view of self. And what happens is is,
now you know someone is coming to them with an
emotional need, their fear takes over. They're not able to
put that to the side and lean in, and then
they you know, end up not because they're broken and
not because they're trying to be bad, but then they
end up abandoning their partner because their shame has has
a louder voice. So we really do need to get
in there and start healing that shame. And actually that's
my next book, it's Healing Shame.
Speaker 1: Oh good, because I want to talk about the triggering
then when it comes to shame, because just the sound
of somebody's voice or the of the scentse of perfume
will somebody, you know, will send somebody into a moment
of shame. And and so I want to know about
that shame because it is such a dangerous, dangerous tool.
Plus it's also a border.
Speaker 2: It absolutely is a border. And you know the thing
about shame is that it needs it needs light shined
on it, and it needs connection. So it's not you know,
relationships aren't doomed because partners have shame. They're doomed when
they're when partners aren't using shame as a connecting point
and using you know, healing. We need to do our
own self work right. But it's amazing how much partners
can actually help each other heal through their shame when
they learn how to you know, show up and lean
into each other and validate each other. So I'm always
working on the self work part over here and the
relationship part over here and together. And that's why I
love working with couples is together. That's such a complete
package for just healing people on individual levels.
Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Julie Manano coming
up next the name of her new book, Secure Love.
She also has a podcast, Julie Manano. Is there anything
wrong with falling madly, deeply in love with your best friend? Yeah,
she's become my wife of thirty three years. But the
thing is, though, is that first and foremost she is
my best friend ahead of everything.
Speaker 2: I think that's lovely. I think that's beautiful. I think
the more connecting points we have, the better I feel
the same way about my partner, you know, I think
it's more about, you know, are we able to meet
each other's emotional needs? That's really the big question.
Speaker 1: God, I would love to sit in one of your
rooms where there's a lot of people because I met you.
There'd be a lot of amen's and yes this and
oh my god, keivid to me, you're speaking my language.
Oh my god. I mean, people have got to be
reacting to you this way, Julie, because you're really bringing
a book here that is us, this is who we
are today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's been very humbling. I think people
are really open to this information. I think people really
want to get the message I'm not broken. I am
reacting to very understandable relationship fears that I picked up
over the course of a lifetime. And most people do
need to learn how to do this kind of communication.
It's not intuitive. So what I have found is that
people are scared and lacking knowledge around how to be vulnerable,
and both of those things can be dealt with. You know,
the vulnerability is a learned skill, and we can use
that to start soothing the fears.
Speaker 1: You put a lot of attention on avoid always and
never ooh, those are like crutches for us. Are we
always and never.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those are really two good subjects changing words, because
the second someone hears the words always are never, they're
just going their brain is going to go into arguing
that and presenting the exceptions to that, and then now
we're not talking about the original problem anymore, and then
we're leaving each other emotionally. So I definitely want to
help people figure out what are you really trying to
say when it's always a never? Sometimes one cure for
that is just you know what, maybe it's not always
or never, but it's enough for me that it's getting
in the way of my ability to feel safe and close.
It's hard for that to be argued with.
Speaker 1: Aren't you drawing a line in the sand? Though? When
you put focus on self regulation and coregulation, it's like, ah, okay,
I guess we have to work together. We've got to
be co together here.
Speaker 2: Both are so important. You know, we come into the
world needing coregulation in orders to learn how to self
regulate as babies, and sadly, you know, many people didn't
get that experience consist throughout childhood where they did have
someone helping them regulate through co regulation. So now we're adults,
and we do have a responsibility to learn how to
self regulate. And if two people can't self regulate, it's
going to be very difficult for them to co regulate
each other. At the same time, coregulation is actually many
many times more powerful for self regular for someone to
feel regulated than self regulation. So we need self regulation
to get to co regulation. But once we can get
to co regulation, it's actually more effective.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know what happens after that? All of
a sudden, here we go again, back into that word trigger.
But this is where I want listeners and readers to go.
You've got the anatomy of a trigger. Finally somebody talks
to us about the real truth about triggers.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, triggers are a moment and in one
thirty second of a second, there are so many layers
in that trigger that when couples and partners can learn
to understand all these layers, and because it happens so fast, right,
you get triggered and before you even have time to think,
you're going into reaction. So my work in this anatomy
of a trigger concept is helping people stretch this out,
slow it down. You're having a threatening thought go through
your mind. You're having a meaning, you're having a bodily experience,
You've got vulnerable emotions, you've got protective feelings coming in
and piling on top of that. I know this sounds
like a lot, but it actually makes things much more
simple when you can see them for what they really
are and learn how to work with all those pieces
and more importantly, communicate about the real things going on
inside of you. Because what happens is if we're not
getting down into the real core of these triggers and
the real vulnerability, only other alternative is to stay stuck
in anger and anxiety and get locked up in these
negative cycles.
Speaker 1: You know, the longer word. Together, we all come up
with these different things that we say that we kind
of laugh about, but at the same time it's almost
like an idiom where it's like this is effective. And
I'll give you two good examples. One of them is
I knew what you were when I picked you up.
And then that's usually when I supply a line back going, well,
you didn't marry Jesus, so you didn't get somebody perfect. Okay,
well let's work on this. So I mean it's like
I mean the longer you stay together, the more those
little idioms kind of play a fun game to play.
Speaker 2: Yes, And so you know, again, what is really trying
to be said there? I mean that is very very indirect,
unclear communication. When someone says I knew who you were,
what they're saying is is I have felt emotionally abandoned
in this relationship and it's hurt so much and I
don't know how to get through. And so I'm going
to find all of these ways to say things that
might get your attention even if they hurt you, because
I'm so desperate to be heard.
Speaker 1: Wow, where can people go to find out more about you?
Because ten minutes with you is nowhere near enough time.
So I want them to go, oh, where you are
so that we can meet them half the way and
then you guys can create a journey together.
Speaker 2: That sounds lovely. I have my book Secure Love out
on paperback as of yesterday. Find it anywhere books are sold.
My website the Secure Relationship dot Com, and I do
have a podcast called the Secure Love Podcast where I
walk a Real Couple, where I'm season three a Real
Couple through twenty sessions of therapy. That is the reflection
it's the work that I present in the book. So
the book is a reflection of the work that I
do with couples, and the podcast is me walking a
couple through the work I present in the book. For
those who want to deeper dive and see how this
work actually plays out in real.
Speaker 1: Life, you are so in the right place at the
right time. Please come back to this show anytime in
the future. It doesn't have to be Valentine's Day or anything.
Love is every.
Speaker 2: Day, absolutely every day, small moment.
Speaker 1: Yea, I love it. You'd be brilliant today.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, you too. Thank you so much for Mother