1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. 3 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:11,679 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,439 now trying to use my experience as the brother of 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,399 a murder victim to help other victims of violent crime. 6 00:00:17,679 --> 00:00:20,719 I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, 7 00:00:20,879 --> 00:00:23,600 and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders 8 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,519 Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 4: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 5: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:39,079 Speaker 4: Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 6: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 16 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,679 Bill Thomas. This is the episode that I'm vetting most 17 00:00:49,679 --> 00:00:52,000 of our listeners have been waiting for, probably since today 18 00:00:52,039 --> 00:00:55,399 we started the podcast, and it's the episode where weeks 19 00:00:55,719 --> 00:01:01,200 finally talk about Bill thomas, intrepid brother and advocate, finally 20 00:01:01,439 --> 00:01:04,519 learning the answers to what happened to his sister Kathy. 21 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 4: I'm thrilled that this day is finally here. I really 22 00:01:08,159 --> 00:01:09,920 am and I. 23 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,239 Speaker 6: Think going to be a very interesting episode, probably a 24 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,000 little emotional too. I think it's going to be a 25 00:01:15,079 --> 00:01:17,920 good one. So thanks to everybody for being patient. We're 26 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,359 here to give you as much information as we can. 27 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:22,079 Speaker 4: Bill, how do you feel. 28 00:01:23,239 --> 00:01:26,079 Speaker 3: It's hard to wrap it into a short answer. It's 29 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,799 a very strange feeling. On the one hand, we've been 30 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,599 looking for these answers for thirty nine going on forty years, 31 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,239 So when you've been looking for answers for that long, 32 00:01:35,359 --> 00:01:40,319 obviously getting those answers is a positive thing. There's some 33 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:45,040 happiness and maybe satisfaction might be the right word. But 34 00:01:45,079 --> 00:01:47,400 then at the same time, and this is we'll walk 35 00:01:47,439 --> 00:01:49,480 through the timing of this thing. These last couple of 36 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,879 days have also been profoundly sad for my entire family. 37 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,159 It's bringing it all back in a really devastating way. 38 00:01:59,159 --> 00:02:03,040 I have been and thinking about Kathy and Becky probably 39 00:02:03,079 --> 00:02:08,280 every day for decades. That goes on, but now everything 40 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,319 comes flooding back. I noticed when I talked to my 41 00:02:11,439 --> 00:02:14,719 family over the last few days, we all felt the 42 00:02:14,759 --> 00:02:17,840 same way. It brought us right back to what we 43 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,240 were doing in nineteen eighty six, how we heard about 44 00:02:21,319 --> 00:02:25,840 Kathy's loss. It's just been a whirlwind. And then I'm 45 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:30,319 scrambling to try to respond to as many media inquiries 46 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,599 as possible, because I think that's always been very important 47 00:02:33,599 --> 00:02:35,560 that we keep the case alive and keep it in 48 00:02:35,599 --> 00:02:38,360 front of people. And now that we have some answers 49 00:02:38,479 --> 00:02:41,520 and I say some, I felt like I wanted to 50 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,199 respond to as many of those reporters as possible. So 51 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,120 that was a kind of a mad scramble. I ended 52 00:02:48,199 --> 00:02:51,400 up apologizing to a number of people that we know 53 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,879 very well. Different reporters, print, internet, television that have covered 54 00:02:56,879 --> 00:03:00,479 the Colonial Parkway murders over the thirty nine years. I 55 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,560 ended up apologizing to a number of them because I 56 00:03:02,599 --> 00:03:05,479 just couldn't get to everybody and they had to file 57 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,400 the story. So some stories had quotes from me and 58 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:10,840 many did not. There isn't much I can do about 59 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,960 it except say I'm sorry, or if you want to 60 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,080 do a follow up or whatever. I've been dealing with 61 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,439 my family. Yeah, this has been devastating news on some level. 62 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,240 It's not like everything is perfect in coming up roses. 63 00:03:24,719 --> 00:03:27,719 It brings up a lot of emotion, and I'm not 64 00:03:27,879 --> 00:03:31,080 one hundred percent satisfied with the answers I received from 65 00:03:31,159 --> 00:03:34,159 the FBI. There's the understatement of the year, which won't 66 00:03:34,199 --> 00:03:37,000 surprise anybody who's ever heard you and me talk about 67 00:03:37,039 --> 00:03:41,000 what it's like to work with the FBI in particular. Man, 68 00:03:41,039 --> 00:03:43,960 it's a lot, it really is. I'm still absorbing it. 69 00:03:44,039 --> 00:03:47,840 I have had the saddest songs running through my head 70 00:03:48,039 --> 00:03:51,520 for days. So that's just a reflection many of my 71 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,199 works in the music business for a lot of years 72 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,840 and worked with a lot of different artists, and music's 73 00:03:55,879 --> 00:03:59,120 really important to me. I can tell my own mood 74 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,759 from these just terribly sad songs that are just occurring 75 00:04:03,759 --> 00:04:06,479 to me, many of them from back then a few minutes. 76 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,199 It's something different, but they're just so sad. I don't 77 00:04:10,199 --> 00:04:12,560 want to dwell on this. Look, there's a lot of 78 00:04:12,919 --> 00:04:14,520 positives going on here. 79 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's a struggle. You can probably hear it. 80 00:04:17,439 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a lot. 81 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:21,759 Speaker 6: Because I've had any number of people who can't get 82 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,079 hold of you ask me how you're doing. I've said, 83 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,600 he's processing. I was just having to remind somebody earlier. Look, 84 00:04:29,639 --> 00:04:33,920 it's one thing to suspect that your sister is the 85 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,519 victim of a serial killer, especially after everything we've learned 86 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,160 over the last two years. It's one thing to suspect it, 87 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,319 it's one thing to speculate. It is a whole other 88 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,680 to get confirmation that, yes, the person whose face you've 89 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,879 been looking at, whose family you've been talking to for 90 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,519 the last two years, is the person who ended your 91 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,439 sister's lives. It's awful, and I am sure that it's difficult, 92 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,800 and I have no frame of reference for that, and 93 00:04:58,879 --> 00:05:01,639 I didn't know CA, and I still think it's awful. 94 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 4: It's life altering. 95 00:05:03,759 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 6: I'm sure I don't love the fact, and I understand 96 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,120 that this is a product of our true crime obsessed culture, 97 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,279 in our twenty four to seven news cycle culture, But 98 00:05:13,399 --> 00:05:17,240 I don't love the fact that literally you got grabbed 99 00:05:17,439 --> 00:05:19,879 in front of TSA at the airport to give a 100 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,959 statement about what you just learn, like what not even 101 00:05:23,079 --> 00:05:24,959 forty five minutes previous. 102 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,199 Speaker 4: I hated that I didn't want you to have to 103 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,000 speak to them. You shouldn't have to. You should have 104 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:31,120 had time to process. 105 00:05:31,199 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 6: And I realized that everybody has stories they want to 106 00:05:33,639 --> 00:05:35,759 get out, everybody has podcasts. 107 00:05:35,319 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 4: They want to do. 108 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 6: But it felt for a little bit watching people come 109 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,319 after you, it felt like watching people scrabbling over a big, 110 00:05:43,399 --> 00:05:46,399 juicy bone, and I don't like that image at all. 111 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, that was upsetting for me. 112 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,879 Speaker 3: It's it is not easy. Many listeners know that my 113 00:05:52,959 --> 00:05:55,879 brother Richard, my older brother, died a couple of months ago. 114 00:05:56,439 --> 00:06:01,120 There's yet another signpost of just how and sad this 115 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,319 whole thing is. It was terrible for Richard not to 116 00:06:05,399 --> 00:06:09,519 be with us. My younger brother Jack was in the hospital. 117 00:06:09,959 --> 00:06:13,560 He is having some very serious health issues and he's 118 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,000 going to be having another heart surgery February third, I think, 119 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,319 if all goes according to plant. So when we got 120 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:24,839 the news, I was coordinating with Pamela, my partner, and Bruce, 121 00:06:24,879 --> 00:06:27,680 who was my brother Jack's husband. We wanted to let 122 00:06:27,759 --> 00:06:30,040 him know what was going on, but I also didn't 123 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,560 want to upset him because here he is with a 124 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,079 heart monitor on and they're very worried about him, and 125 00:06:36,079 --> 00:06:39,079 he's been in and out of the emergency room and 126 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,519 the cardiac ward three times in the last three four 127 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,480 weeks leading up to hopefully this successful surgery. Bruce was 128 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,240 so thankful that we didn't just contact Jack directly. And 129 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,240 there's so many things even now about this meeting with 130 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,720 the FBI that went. Look, a lot of things went well, 131 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,600 and I appreciate the hard work and the professionalism and 132 00:07:01,639 --> 00:07:04,079 the kindness of the people I met with. Yet, at 133 00:07:04,079 --> 00:07:07,279 the same time, the way this thing worked out, and 134 00:07:07,319 --> 00:07:10,199 I'll explain as we discussed, I wasn't even able to 135 00:07:10,199 --> 00:07:14,000 tell my own family because they chose to drop the 136 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:19,120 press release the minute our meeting started, with no advanced notice. 137 00:07:19,199 --> 00:07:23,000 Our families found out who killed Kathy and Becky from 138 00:07:23,079 --> 00:07:26,600 the media, and I'm sorry. This was unacceptable. This is 139 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,680 not how this should have gone down. So while I'm 140 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,439 tied up in a meeting, a productive meeting from nine am, 141 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,399 we actually started at eight thirty going through their incredibly 142 00:07:36,399 --> 00:07:39,120 type security and you're not allowed to bring a cell 143 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,480 phone in, so it goes into a cubby in the 144 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,560 guard shack out by the entrance to the FBI headquarters. 145 00:07:44,759 --> 00:07:47,480 This is the one in Chesapeake, Virginia. I have no 146 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,879 way of communicating to my family. They actually found out 147 00:07:50,879 --> 00:07:54,199 about this through the media, and the phone started ringing 148 00:07:54,279 --> 00:07:58,199 up here with my partner Pamela, and people demanding my 149 00:07:58,439 --> 00:08:01,360 phone number because they wanted to talk to me. I 150 00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:04,439 was still meeting with the FBI. There has to be 151 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,360 a better way to do this. I should explain from 152 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,439 the beginning how this whole thing went down. 153 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 6: Yeah, no, and I definitely want to tea that up 154 00:08:12,319 --> 00:08:14,959 in a second, but I also want to talk again. 155 00:08:15,079 --> 00:08:17,920 Like you said, this all went down. We knew it 156 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:23,120 was coming because the FBI invited you. They didn't say why. 157 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,360 For a couple of days ahead of time. All Bill 158 00:08:26,399 --> 00:08:29,160 and I had was the FBI invited them to a 159 00:08:29,199 --> 00:08:33,279 meeting the Thomas and Nadowski families. I assumed, and I 160 00:08:33,279 --> 00:08:34,600 think you did too, that it was going to be 161 00:08:34,639 --> 00:08:37,240 good news because they asked if you had siblings he 162 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,360 wanted to bring along. And that's when I figured this 163 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,039 is either going to be in a solver and arrest, 164 00:08:41,279 --> 00:08:45,320 but they wouldn't give any indication beyond that. I knew 165 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,240 going in on Tuesday morning that you were going to 166 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,120 be talking to the FBI, and I probably wouldn't hear 167 00:08:52,159 --> 00:08:53,639 from you for a couple of hours. And then I 168 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,960 figured maybe round I don't know, one o'clock or something 169 00:08:56,039 --> 00:08:58,600 like that, go will call me and I'll hear the news. 170 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,080 But no, nine oh eight, as I'm in the middle 171 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:06,120 of class, my phone starts blowing up in my back pocket. 172 00:09:06,759 --> 00:09:09,919 It's friends from the podcast who are all sending me 173 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,679 the same story from Wavy ten, who dropped it immediately. 174 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,320 Like you said, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is responsible for 175 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,639 the death of Kathy Thomas and Rebecadewski. So that was 176 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,679 the first time I heard it as well, and I 177 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,480 would have wanted to hear it from you, not from Wavy. 178 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 3: You have to explain for all of our listeners around 179 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,320 the country and around the world, what's WAVY. 180 00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:33,639 Speaker 6: Oh, yes, sorry, Wavy ten. That's our local news station, 181 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,799 our frequent podcast gest. Andy Fox, who has been with 182 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,519 the investigation for a very long time, is one of 183 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,559 the reporters at WAVY and they've always been great about 184 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,279 covering the Parkway case. But boy, they must have had 185 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,360 this and been sitting on it until exactly nine o'clock, 186 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,960 because it was very shortly after that I started getting 187 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,879 phone calls and interview requests and everything else from people, 188 00:09:58,039 --> 00:09:59,559 and so it's shoot, I'm in the middle of my 189 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,039 school and I'm definitely not supposed to have my phone 190 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:03,399 at help, but people. 191 00:10:03,159 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 4: Are blowing me up. 192 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,919 Speaker 6: The timing could have been better, and I certainly would 193 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,600 have wanted the news from you rather than getting a 194 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,159 statement that from Waving. 195 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 3: That didn't happen. People that have listened to the podcast 196 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,879 for a long time. No that I'm pretty direct. Because 197 00:10:19,879 --> 00:10:24,080 of the FBI's ongoing obsession with power and control, they 198 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,480 didn't tell us anything in advance, and therefore, when we 199 00:10:28,519 --> 00:10:30,879 went in at a thirty, As I mentioned, the meeting 200 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,559 started at exactly at nine o'clock. The press release, which 201 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,679 we had not seen, went out at nine o'clock. It 202 00:10:38,799 --> 00:10:42,519 was what they call embargoed, which in the public relations 203 00:10:42,639 --> 00:10:46,559 communications world, media outlets are often given press releases a 204 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,559 bit in advance and they are embargoed. That is, they 205 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,320 are not allowed to drop on the internet or go 206 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:55,080 to print or go on the air until the time. 207 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 2: And it's just like a gentle person's agreement too. 208 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 3: There's nothing magic about that, but they'll say embark until 209 00:11:00,799 --> 00:11:03,720 nine am. The bizarre thing is at some point there 210 00:11:03,799 --> 00:11:06,120 was a communications person in the room. She said the 211 00:11:06,159 --> 00:11:08,720 press release had gone out. Let me back up and 212 00:11:08,799 --> 00:11:11,240 explain a little bit more about how this whole thing 213 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:13,320 went down, because I think that'll help tea this up. 214 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,399 A week ago, I got a phone call from our 215 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,679 victim services person. This is the FBI, and she left 216 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,960 me a message. Now, for the last year, this new 217 00:11:24,039 --> 00:11:26,600 victim services person has called me once a month to 218 00:11:26,639 --> 00:11:29,320 tell me she has nothing to tell me. She's very nice, 219 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,519 she's very professional, but it's very frustrating because every month 220 00:11:32,639 --> 00:11:34,840 she would tell me has nothing to tell me. She 221 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,240 left a message to please call her as soon as possible, 222 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,519 And of course I'm thinking to myself, this is the 223 00:11:40,799 --> 00:11:43,039 monthly phone call where she tells me she has nothing 224 00:11:43,039 --> 00:11:46,639 to tell me, which is incredibly frustrating. In the past year, 225 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:49,080 this new team has not allowed us to speak to 226 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,360 the investigators. They've kept us very shielded. They basically never 227 00:11:53,399 --> 00:11:57,000 call us, never give us any updates, And this victim 228 00:11:57,039 --> 00:11:59,559 services person calls and tells me once a month they 229 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:00,600 got nothing and to tell me. 230 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 2: Which is really hard to believe. 231 00:12:01,759 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: After a while, so I called her back and she 232 00:12:04,799 --> 00:12:08,519 said that they wanted us to come to Virginia next 233 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,919 week for a meeting, and they wanted us to fly 234 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,440 down there on Monday for a meeting Tuesday morning. I said, 235 00:12:15,639 --> 00:12:18,759 what's with the short notice? Basically I'm asked to up 236 00:12:18,879 --> 00:12:21,480 end my schedule, cancel whatever I had planned for Monday 237 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,120 and Tuesday. She couldn't say so I was like, what's 238 00:12:24,159 --> 00:12:26,799 the urgency and what are you going to tell us? 239 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,840 And she couldn't tell me anything. So I told her 240 00:12:29,919 --> 00:12:32,600 I wanted to think about it, actually, and I called 241 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:37,039 Bob Dowski, who is my counterpart. He's Beckydowski's older brother. 242 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,120 Bob confirmed he had received the same invitation that he 243 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,440 was going to be going to the meeting. They hadn't 244 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,159 told him anything either. They had discussed, as you mentioned, Kristen, 245 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,639 me having my siblings there, and I said, first of all, 246 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,000 my older brother died just a couple months ago. My 247 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,240 younger brother is in the hospital. And I said, I'm 248 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,399 running out of siblings. We've lost Richard obviously, we lost 249 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,639 Kathy nine years ago. I have a half sister, but 250 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,120 she is someone that we've just gotten to know. She's 251 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:06,960 absolutely wonderful. We've just gotten to know her in the 252 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,759 ear or something like that, thanks to ancestry dot com. 253 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,360 She's caring for her substantially older husband, who's also having 254 00:13:14,399 --> 00:13:18,200 some serious health challenges. So I knew Stephanie, my half sister, 255 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,720 isn't going to attend. I didn't think it was appropriate 256 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,559 that my partner Pamela be there. Although they mentioned her, 257 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,519 they said, would your partner like to attend. When I 258 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,919 was talking to Bob, I was asking him about his siblings. 259 00:13:29,919 --> 00:13:32,159 He comes from five kids as well, and of course 260 00:13:32,159 --> 00:13:35,320 they obviously lost Becky, who was the youngest. He had 261 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,120 spoken to his siblings and they weren't going to attend either. 262 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,159 And remember a lot of folks find this stuff very upsetting. 263 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,200 Even if my younger brother Jack had been in great shape, 264 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,559 he wouldn't have attended this meeting. He and Kathy were 265 00:13:48,639 --> 00:13:52,039 a year and two weeks apart, almost Irish twins, super 266 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,879 close from when they were babies. M it was Kathy 267 00:13:55,879 --> 00:13:58,480 and Jack, who was almost like one word. Sometimes they 268 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,360 were called the little kids. As they got older, they 269 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,480 weren't still the little kids. Richard Bill, we were the 270 00:14:04,519 --> 00:14:06,919 two oldest, and Jack and Kathy were the youngest. And 271 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,039 then later we found out about our wonderful half sister, Stephanie. 272 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,480 Jack wasn't going to be up for this either way. 273 00:14:13,039 --> 00:14:15,080 When I called back, I said, you're just getting me 274 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,679 and I had talked to Bob about it, and Bob said, 275 00:14:17,799 --> 00:14:21,519 it's just going to be me. So we flew down there. Interestingly, 276 00:14:21,559 --> 00:14:24,440 at the FBIS initiative, they paid for the trip in 277 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,759 the weirdness department. I specifically asked to be on the 278 00:14:27,799 --> 00:14:31,600 first flight out Monday morning, six am out of Hartford, Connecticut, 279 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,279 near where I live, and I asked to be on 280 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,399 a late flight on the way back on Tuesday, because, 281 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,440 as I said, I don't want the meeting to be 282 00:14:38,799 --> 00:14:41,000 rushed just because I have to catch a plane. There's 283 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,080 nothing magic about me getting a plane back up to Hertford, Connecticut. 284 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,399 And then when they booke ended up booking the travel. 285 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,559 Because they have to book the travel, they don't give 286 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,399 me anything close to it. They've got me arriving late 287 00:14:53,559 --> 00:14:57,919 Monday afternoon and heading back Tuesday afternoon at three pm, 288 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,799 which I thought was completely unneces But after a while 289 00:15:01,799 --> 00:15:03,320 you're like, you just throw your hands up in the air. 290 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,919 I can't fight with the FBI about everything, so we're 291 00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:08,120 all set up to be there Tuesday morning. 292 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 2: We get up early. 293 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 3: I had a terrible night sleep, tossing and turning, couldn't sleep. 294 00:15:13,679 --> 00:15:16,200 I keep reviewing suspects in my mind. There's been one 295 00:15:16,279 --> 00:15:19,600 hundred and fifty persons of interest. Which one will it be? 296 00:15:20,039 --> 00:15:23,360 Wilmer was certainly someone that I thought about, because of 297 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,679 course he's been linked to four homicides. At that point, 298 00:15:26,919 --> 00:15:30,360 when we sit down, Dominice Evins, who's the new special 299 00:15:30,399 --> 00:15:33,759 agent in charge of that office, spoke. She was very 300 00:15:33,759 --> 00:15:37,600 well spoken, very professional. We were seated in like an 301 00:15:37,679 --> 00:15:40,000 O shape, so that Bob and I are on one 302 00:15:40,039 --> 00:15:42,360 side of the table, and then we've got probably seven 303 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,279 people flanking us, with sac Evans in the middle facing us. 304 00:15:47,679 --> 00:15:50,480 After the introductions, very quickly she cut right to the chase. 305 00:15:50,519 --> 00:15:52,320 She said something like that, I won't keep you. 306 00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 2: Waiting any longer. 307 00:15:53,679 --> 00:15:56,679 Speaker 3: Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is responsible for the deaths of 308 00:15:56,759 --> 00:16:01,840 Kathy Thomas and Rebecca dewsk I was surprised. Bob was 309 00:16:02,039 --> 00:16:07,679 extremely surprised. He was very locked into another suspect, a 310 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,759 person I had heard quite a bit about. But I 311 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,759 went in there with an open mind. I just didn't know. 312 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,000 Bob was certain it was going to be this other suspect. 313 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:20,440 She walked us through the information, but they're so light, unspecific. 314 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,919 I still struggle with this. The culture of the FBI 315 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,919 is not one of information sharing. So I had a 316 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,279 ton of questions, and Bob, who's a very smart guy 317 00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:35,840 and a very inquisitive person as well, had a lot 318 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,159 of questions. So I asked a lot of questions, and 319 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,799 I try to stop, like every question or two to 320 00:16:42,879 --> 00:16:45,120 give Bob a chance to get a word in edgewiise. 321 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,120 You got to be respectful of the other person. He's 322 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,120 got lots of questions as well. We're asking questions, but man, 323 00:16:52,159 --> 00:16:54,519 we've got a lot of stock answers. First of all, 324 00:16:54,639 --> 00:16:58,120 I said to the SAC, you're not having a press conference. 325 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,000 Virginia State Police have I've had two solves in this series. 326 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,799 They've already had two press conferences live on camera and 327 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:12,799 on mike with family members there, and they took questions 328 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:16,920 from the reporters in the audience. There's none of that. 329 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:20,400 And I looked at SAC Evans and I said, you 330 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,559 need to have a press conference. You need to take 331 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:28,559 questions from the reporters. I said, I'm not seeing any 332 00:17:28,759 --> 00:17:32,799 ownership of this case good. And I said, look, I 333 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,160 know you may feel that you're paying for the sins 334 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,000 of your predecessors, but there's been a lot of mistakes 335 00:17:40,039 --> 00:17:42,519 made in this case. There are a lot of questions 336 00:17:42,759 --> 00:17:45,480 about this case. And I looked at her and I 337 00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:48,519 think I pointed my finger. Even I try to be polite, 338 00:17:48,559 --> 00:17:50,440 but it's like, you have got to be kidding me. 339 00:17:50,559 --> 00:17:54,319 You're not having a press conference, you're not taking questions 340 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,400 and ohen And didn't occur to me until later when 341 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,519 I finally started connecting with my family. I didn't realize 342 00:18:01,519 --> 00:18:04,279 they were gonna dump this on the world Wide Web 343 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:09,240 at a time when that assured that my family, Bob's family, 344 00:18:09,599 --> 00:18:11,759 and anyone else that was interested was going to find 345 00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:14,880 out about this stuff. At nine o'clock that morning, I 346 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,759 thought that was what you wanted me to be doing 347 00:18:17,799 --> 00:18:21,880 in terms of the Thomas family. So I tried to 348 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,240 be polite at the same time, when you're not getting 349 00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:29,880 great answers or straight answers, I got what I felt 350 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,160 were very stock answers to a lot of questions. There's 351 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,839 some positives mixed in here. One is that, obviously I'm 352 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,720 not a family member for the Call and Haley families, 353 00:18:40,839 --> 00:18:43,960 but that case is an FBI case, the disappearance of 354 00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:47,400 Keith Colin Cassandraley. So I asked about the status of that. 355 00:18:48,039 --> 00:18:51,279 They didn't say very much, but I got a strong 356 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,759 sense of commitment on their part just I was watching 357 00:18:54,799 --> 00:18:57,519 their body language very carefully, and I've been in meetings 358 00:18:57,519 --> 00:19:01,319 for decades I would sweep the room with my eyes 359 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,720 and look at everybody to see how they were reacting. 360 00:19:03,799 --> 00:19:08,519 So their body indicated to me anyway, a continued determination 361 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,640 to get to the bottom of these cases. And they 362 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,200 are still responsible for the Call Haley disappearance. Now it's 363 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,839 the Virginia State Police that are responsible for our other 364 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,599 unsolved murder, that of Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lauer. 365 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,640 That's the one everybody thinks about, is inter State sixty four. 366 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,319 That's the couple under the blankets. So that's a Virginia 367 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,240 State Police case. And they made it clear they weren't 368 00:19:32,279 --> 00:19:35,559 able to talk about the VSP cases. They started talking 369 00:19:35,599 --> 00:19:37,759 about the lab work and they said that they had 370 00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:40,599 found DNA on Becky's bra. 371 00:19:41,559 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 6: Of course, we have a ton of listener questions and 372 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,799 so I'm just going to approach these in the order 373 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,359 that seem most pressing. And so the first one, of course, 374 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,759 is the one that everybody wants to know the answer to, 375 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,960 and this is from Robert, and he says, can you 376 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,680 tell us what type of DNA evidence was tested and 377 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,480 where was it found? Was the testing performed by an 378 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,359 outside lab or the FBI lab? 379 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 3: Okay, what they told US was that they had found 380 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,920 DNA evidence. They didn't ever say touch or semen or 381 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,920 saliva or whatever. They just said DNA was found on 382 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,039 Becky's bra. Becky would have been wearing a bra and 383 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,359 like a T shirt and then some sort of sporty jacket. 384 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,559 She was very athletic. It wouldn't break her and shorts 385 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:28,480 is our recalls. 386 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 2: Yep. 387 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 3: And they said DNA on the bra. They never said 388 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,880 clasp or anything like that. Because I was listening for 389 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,599 that now, I think that might be a logical assumption. Sure, 390 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,720 I felt like I got very good answers from the 391 00:20:43,839 --> 00:20:47,200 case agent. I looked at them and I said who 392 00:20:47,279 --> 00:20:50,680 did the lab work? And they said DNA Labs International, 393 00:20:51,079 --> 00:20:54,079 And this is a very highly regarded lab in Florida. 394 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,200 They did all the other work so far in the 395 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,039 other four A D identified cases, and these have come 396 00:21:02,079 --> 00:21:04,920 through the Virginia State Police and the Hampton Police Department. 397 00:21:05,319 --> 00:21:08,400 And this is all through US. These SAKI grants, the 398 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,240 sexual Sault Kit Initiative grants that you and I. 399 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:12,799 Speaker 2: Have talked about on Mind over Murder. 400 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 3: Apparently this work was routed through the Virginia State Police, 401 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,680 which would allow them to use the SAKI grants, okay, 402 00:21:20,799 --> 00:21:23,559 because state and local agencies are the ones that are 403 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,440 usually authorized to use these SAKI grants. And by the way, 404 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,319 I think it's this is a fantastic use of taxpayer 405 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,759 dollars in my opinion. I hope everybody's okay with that 406 00:21:32,279 --> 00:21:36,880 they did answer that question in a straightforward manner. You're 407 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,920 listening to Mind over Murder, will be right back after 408 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:47,839 this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover. 409 00:21:47,519 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 4: Murder the other follow up. 410 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,079 Speaker 6: And I think a lot of people I've noticed have 411 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,000 jumped to this conclusion, and I suppose it's rational because 412 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,039 we spent so much time talking about it. 413 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 4: A number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it. 414 00:22:01,279 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 6: Was the hair in Kathy's hand that was the result 415 00:22:04,039 --> 00:22:06,279 of the DNA hit. Can you tell us what if 416 00:22:06,319 --> 00:22:08,039 anything was said about the hair. 417 00:22:07,839 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 4: In her hands? 418 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 3: Nothing was ever said about the hair in Kathy's hand. Unfortunately, 419 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,559 when we ended the meeting at the two hour mark, 420 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,640 I'm not exaggerating. Anybody that listens to this podcast would 421 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,519 know this. I had another two hours worth of questions 422 00:22:22,839 --> 00:22:26,519 the meeting ended, and I was really unhappy that I 423 00:22:26,599 --> 00:22:29,480 wasn't able to ask my additional questions. By the way, 424 00:22:29,519 --> 00:22:32,799 I was so paranoid about their very strict rules, I 425 00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:35,079 didn't even bring a piece of paper or a pen 426 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,160 into the meeting, but I knew most of the questions 427 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,240 I wanted to ask off the top of my head 428 00:22:40,279 --> 00:22:43,079 and the hair in my sister's hand, which has been 429 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,440 a great source of frustration for me because the FBI 430 00:22:47,559 --> 00:22:51,359 keeps changing the answer to what is the status of 431 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,119 the hair in my sister's hand, which was clearly indicated 432 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,839 in the autopsy report, which we have a copy of, 433 00:22:58,319 --> 00:23:00,319 so that never came up and I still don't have 434 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:00,839 an answer. 435 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 6: And I also want to point out to people I 436 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,279 have yet to hear about the details of this meeting 437 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,759 because Bill and I have been so crazed for the 438 00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:12,079 last seventy two hours that I didn't even get a 439 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:13,960 chance to sit down and talk to him. 440 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 4: For more than like ten minutes. 441 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 6: So like on Tuesday, I talked to him for ten 442 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,039 minutes once when I was between classes and he was 443 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,400 on the way to the airport before he got ambushed 444 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,759 by the media, and then the second time when he 445 00:23:25,839 --> 00:23:29,720 was between planes in DC and Hartford. But I got 446 00:23:29,759 --> 00:23:32,480 a grand total of fifteen minutes with my own podcast 447 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,920 partner on Tuesday, and then yesterday we got some amount 448 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,480 of time, but we had fires to put out. 449 00:23:37,759 --> 00:23:40,559 Speaker 4: I still haven't heard all of this. Every question that's 450 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,240 up here I also have too. Okay, so here's the 451 00:23:43,279 --> 00:23:43,880 next question. 452 00:23:44,519 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 6: Do investigators have a working theory and timeline of events 453 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,839 or locations leading up to the double homicide of Kathy 454 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,319 and Becky? If so, can you disclose any of the details. 455 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,119 I'm assuming they probably didn't give you that information. 456 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:05,279 Speaker 3: We Yeah, we asked a lot of questions. I very frustratingly, No, 457 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,400 they're not saying. They did say they thought that Wilmer 458 00:24:10,839 --> 00:24:14,640 was stalking these couples, but then when I pressed for 459 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,960 more detail, they said that might only be like a 460 00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:20,880 for an hour. In other words, they do think he 461 00:24:21,039 --> 00:24:24,720 was going to places. This all makes perfect sense, going 462 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,759 to places with locations that were known as places where 463 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,680 couples would go make out spots, levers, lanes. It all 464 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,839 makes sense. And they think that he would be observing 465 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,920 these people for a period of time. They didn't mean days, 466 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,880 They meant a short period of time. This could be 467 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:42,599 an hour. 468 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 2: Or something like that. I think is what they said. 469 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 3: He would go to these places seeking couples engaged in 470 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,480 these romantic behaviors. They didn't use that word, but and 471 00:24:52,559 --> 00:24:55,559 so they believe that's what he did with Kathy and Becky, 472 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,279 which as far as we know, is the first in 473 00:24:58,319 --> 00:25:00,880 the series of what we call the Clonial Arkway murders. 474 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 6: Did they give you any indication of where the primary 475 00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:05,079 crime scene was? No? 476 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 3: And I pressed really hard on that because I said, 477 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,480 to a new case agent who's very good and I 478 00:25:11,599 --> 00:25:14,240 liked her a lot, and she clearly knew the No 479 00:25:14,319 --> 00:25:16,680 insult to anybody in the room, but it was very 480 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,279 clear that she knew more about this case than anybody 481 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,640 on the FBI team, and so I really appreciated it 482 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,400 when they let her chime in. But I pressed really 483 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,920 hard on this because I said, do you feel that 484 00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:32,920 Kathy and Becky were murdered at the Ringfield plantation, which 485 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,519 is a very likely sight in my opinion, than the 486 00:25:37,599 --> 00:25:41,000 Cheetamannics overlook, which, as we've talked about on the podcast, 487 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,880 is very close to the surface of the road of 488 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,720 the Colonial Parkway itself, and the fact that it's probably 489 00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:50,400 less than fifty feet from the surface of the road 490 00:25:50,599 --> 00:25:53,559 to the edge of the embankment and Kathy's car was 491 00:25:53,599 --> 00:25:56,839 found down the embankment. It never sat right with me 492 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,680 because I remember I told you and our listeners several 493 00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:02,480 years ago when we were marking one of the anniversaries, 494 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,240 I went out there and did a whole bunch of 495 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,799 television interviews. So I would do an interview and then 496 00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:08,680 wait and the next TV crew would come and they 497 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,880 would set up, and I had time in between. So 498 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,680 one of the things I did while I was out 499 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,119 there was I watched for and listened for cars, yeah, 500 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,240 and then watch them go by on the parkway. And 501 00:26:19,319 --> 00:26:22,160 it was like ten to fifteen seconds between the time 502 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,759 I heard a car in the distance and it appeared 503 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,680 visible to the location where Catholic's car was found. And 504 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,880 I thought, Man, I know this offender or offenders were 505 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,319 comfortable in this spot, but you've got to have a 506 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,720 lot of nerve to be killing a couple in the 507 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,000 relative open. And you know that if you hear a car, 508 00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:46,000 you've got like maximum fifteen seconds before that car drives 509 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:46,440 into view. 510 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 6: I still am pretty sure that it's Ringfield Plantation, largely 511 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,839 because we know it wasn't in the car. There was 512 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,039 not enough blood in the car for it to have 513 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,759 happened in the car, And it really just does seem 514 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,079 if you wanted someplace to go to be private and 515 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,359 maybe do a little bit of fooling around or whatever. Yep, 516 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,200 that Ringfield Plantation pull off where if you pull all 517 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,319 the way back, you're right next to the water and 518 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,200 a cute little sandy beach that seems like a place 519 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,720 where it would be. Following up with that, and do 520 00:27:15,799 --> 00:27:17,799 they think he was in the truck or the boat 521 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:18,400 or did they? 522 00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, we did talk about that one thing before we 523 00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:26,319 step off your last question. Yeah, she did say definitively 524 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,880 she felt that the murder took place outside the car, 525 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,480 which we've always thought. She she confirmed that as well. 526 00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:37,680 Regarding the boat versus truck question, our current case agent 527 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,359 feels much more strongly that Wilmer was using his truck. 528 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,519 Now she doesn't rule out the possibility of a boat, 529 00:27:44,559 --> 00:27:46,880 and we know that three of the four crime scenes 530 00:27:47,039 --> 00:27:49,720 are right next to water, and his boat that Danny 531 00:27:49,759 --> 00:27:52,839 Wade had a shallow draft, which means it doesn't stick 532 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,480 down in the water too much. With a shallow draft, 533 00:27:55,519 --> 00:27:57,960 you can go into all sorts of rivers and creeks 534 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,079 and inlets, that are fairly shallow and get pretty close 535 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,319 up to the edge of the water. I was very 536 00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:07,000 interested in that, but she said she felt that he 537 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,000 was using the truck more than he might have been 538 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,119 using the boat. Now, I know a lot of people, 539 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,359 particularly with the Ragged Island murder of Robin Edwards and 540 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,839 David Knobling confirmed linked to Allan Wade Wilmer Senior, a 541 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,119 boat would make a lot of sense there, and I 542 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:23,400 would have to agree. 543 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 2: I don't know. 544 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 3: She seemed to feel that the use of his truck 545 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,319 was likely in a number of these cases. She's a 546 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,359 very smart investigator, and she gets the subtleties and the nuances, 547 00:28:34,759 --> 00:28:38,480 and she wasn't locking herself into anything, nor would I 548 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,200 sure if I were in her shoes. But I was 549 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,559 very impressed with her, and I always liked it when 550 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,039 she was given the opportunity to answer the questions. So 551 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,880 that one was a very interesting exchange. 552 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 4: And that does make some sense to me. 553 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,759 Speaker 6: If he's got so Kathy's Honda Civic is pretty low 554 00:28:57,799 --> 00:29:00,720 to the grounds, he's got a truck that's elevated. I 555 00:29:00,759 --> 00:29:05,000 can see him pulling in to the Ringfield Plantation pull off, 556 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,039 and again this is my speculation. We haven't proven that 557 00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:10,359 it's Ringfield, but I can see him pulling in, aiming 558 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,079 the lights at the car, at which point it's going 559 00:29:13,119 --> 00:29:15,119 to blind them through the back windshield. 560 00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:15,599 Speaker 2: YEP. 561 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 4: I can see him. 562 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 6: Coming over, knocking on the window to do his cop 563 00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:23,240 ruse or whatever, and I count one hundred percent. Like 564 00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:25,519 I said, I didn't know Kathy, but I can imagine it. 565 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,799 I can imagine Kathy giving him absolute hell when she 566 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,240 figures out the guy knocking on my window isn't a cop. 567 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,960 You see her giving him attitude, and I can see 568 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,359 that pissing him off. 569 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 4: And that I think is case for the savagery of. 570 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 3: It, especially since they think that the encounter takes place 571 00:29:44,079 --> 00:29:46,880 outside the car. So at some point it sounds like 572 00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:49,960 whether she's ordered to or Kathy and Becky are both 573 00:29:50,039 --> 00:29:52,359 ordered to get out of the car. At some point 574 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,440 she's standing up and they have some sort of scuffle. 575 00:29:55,839 --> 00:29:59,640 Bob had the perception that there were no marks on 576 00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:04,160 women's bodies. And now remember Bob's never seen Kathy's autopsy report. 577 00:30:04,359 --> 00:30:09,240 I have the former sac now deceased, the late Great IRV. 578 00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:12,160 Wells told in no in certain terms when I interviewed 579 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,079 him some years ago. He said, Kathy put out a 580 00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:17,640 hell of a fight, which is why she had all 581 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,240 these bruises and marks on her legs. 582 00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:23,359 Speaker 2: And she also had that restraint. 583 00:30:23,119 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 4: Marks and the webbing in her fingers. 584 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 3: And they think that there should marks from like handcuffs, 585 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:32,319 and they mentioned handcuffs specifically. 586 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 4: Oh God, I hate this guy. 587 00:30:36,119 --> 00:30:38,839 Speaker 3: We also talked about lots of other things, but I'll 588 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,559 let you keep going with your questions. 589 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 6: Okay, outside of DNA evidence and the nautical line, diesel fuel, 590 00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:49,720 et cetera, is there any additional evidence investigators believe ties 591 00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:52,359 this case to Wilmer, not that I recall. 592 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:53,839 Speaker 4: I'm curious. 593 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,359 Speaker 6: You and I had talked a number of times about 594 00:30:56,359 --> 00:30:58,799 the fact that there was a bit of rope found 595 00:30:58,839 --> 00:31:02,960 behind Kathy's red hair. Were they ever did they mention 596 00:31:03,079 --> 00:31:05,079 being able to test the rope or get anything from 597 00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:05,480 the rope? 598 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: No? 599 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 3: Now, I remember our previous case agent did have that 600 00:31:09,799 --> 00:31:12,160 rope tested and she said it was soaked in blood. 601 00:31:12,279 --> 00:31:15,759 And she said they thought that he had cut the 602 00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:18,640 rope at both ends after he had killed them and 603 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,559 left that segment of rope yeah, behind, but we didn't. Interestingly, 604 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,200 these are questions I would have definitely gotten to had 605 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,200 we had more time. 606 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,279 Speaker 2: The rope was never brought up. 607 00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:33,599 Speaker 4: So that's actually the next question on the list. 608 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 6: What questions are there that you don't have answers to 609 00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:40,680 but that you think still can be realistically answered by investigators. 610 00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:43,240 Are you permitted a follow up meeting or do you 611 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,240 have the ability to ask investigators' additional questions. 612 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 3: I got to tell you, Bob and I are both 613 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:54,559 incredibly unhappy with the level of information provided. We have 614 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,599 a lot more questions and we are going to be 615 00:31:57,759 --> 00:32:01,160 seeking a follow up meeting. Both of us felt on 616 00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:03,319 the FBI man not like this, but it is what 617 00:32:03,359 --> 00:32:06,359 it is now that we've had a chance to step back. 618 00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:08,680 When I was talking to Bob yesterday, he said he 619 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,039 felt like we got the bum's rush, like they wanted 620 00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:14,480 to get rid of us. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not 621 00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:18,200 saying they were rude or disrespectful or anything but professional. 622 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,039 They were actually quite lovely. But we felt like they 623 00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:25,039 were perfectly happy when Bob steered the meeting to a close. 624 00:32:25,079 --> 00:32:27,000 And of course I'm thinking I got a lot more 625 00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:29,400 questions here. When's the next time I'm going to have 626 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,960 a room full of FBI agents to at least attempt 627 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,920 to answer some of these questions. There were a lot 628 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,640 of questions I asked that they didn't get satisfactory answers to. 629 00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:41,680 We're actually going to be seeking a follow up because 630 00:32:41,839 --> 00:32:44,119 I'll be frank as always, I have a number of 631 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,319 family members and friends that actually aren't buying this. Wilmer 632 00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:53,200 id they don't trust the FBI. They're not sure they 633 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,720 believe the FBI. By the way, one of the things 634 00:32:55,759 --> 00:32:58,839 I said over the table, and I don't know if 635 00:32:58,839 --> 00:33:00,720 I'm winning any friends when I say these things, but 636 00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:06,039 they need to be said. I said, look, folks, the 637 00:33:06,119 --> 00:33:10,319 families plural, not just the Thomas family, the families I'm 638 00:33:10,319 --> 00:33:15,079 talking about all the FBI families, Thomas Dowski, Carl Haley. 639 00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:18,359 I think I can speak for all four families who 640 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:23,000 have FBI cases. We don't trust the FBI. And I said, 641 00:33:23,079 --> 00:33:25,319 and I looked right at the sac when I said this, 642 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,880 You've earned our distrust. Your lack of communication, the fact 643 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,599 that it's taken nearly forty years to solve this case, 644 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:40,440 your lack of transparency, sometimes inconsistent or dishonest answers. I'm 645 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,680 not saying this team, but I'm saying over the nearly 646 00:33:43,759 --> 00:33:47,000 forty year history of this case, and I said, flat out, 647 00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:50,519 you guys may not like this, but you earned this distrust. 648 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,440 And I didn't realize until after I got out of 649 00:33:54,519 --> 00:33:57,680 the room and started trying to scramble to follow up 650 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,640 with my family and friends, and there were a number 651 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,519 of people that said, I don't believe it. I think 652 00:34:03,559 --> 00:34:06,000 we should be seeking more proof. And I spoke to 653 00:34:06,039 --> 00:34:09,199 Bob Dawski was back in Colorado where he lives. He 654 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,599 said the same thing. So we actually think we're going 655 00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:16,239 to seek a follow up meeting. We need more information. 656 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,360 I have so many questions. One of the other key 657 00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:23,599 questions that was absolutely missed, and I need an answer 658 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:29,760 to this. Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior died in twenty seventeen. 659 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,000 Now let's flash back for a second. Let's remember that 660 00:34:33,079 --> 00:34:37,039 Wilmer was a leading suspect in the disappearance of Keith 661 00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:41,360 calling Cassandra Haley's disappearance. In nineteen eighty eight, his truck 662 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,559 was spotted on the Colonial Parkway by couples who were 663 00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:48,000 interviewed by the FBI, and they said that a man 664 00:34:48,079 --> 00:34:51,519 with this very distinctive truck with writing on the doors. 665 00:34:51,599 --> 00:34:53,880 It was blue green. It had a rig on the 666 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,880 back that was for oystering crabbing. Kind of looks like 667 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,519 a tow truck if you're not a Orderman. This truck 668 00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:03,920 was clearly like a one of one. It was an 669 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,400 antique even back then. It was in nineteen sixty six 670 00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:09,960 Dodge Dakota pickup truck, and this would have been in 671 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,119 eighty six, so it was twenty years old. The couples 672 00:35:13,159 --> 00:35:17,199 that they interviewed who were making out on the Colonial Parkway, 673 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,800 a number of them said they'd had these very disturbing 674 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,639 encounters with a man who rolled up on them in 675 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,559 this truck wearing coveralls, not a policeman's uniform, but he 676 00:35:26,639 --> 00:35:30,119 was highly aggressive and he would demand driver's licenses. Interestingly, 677 00:35:30,159 --> 00:35:33,440 I don't think he asked for registration. And he would 678 00:35:33,559 --> 00:35:36,039 tell them they don't belong there and they should move along, 679 00:35:36,159 --> 00:35:39,760 and that kind of thing. This very distinctive pickup truck 680 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,159 then was something they were looking for. And the radio operator, 681 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,880 remember this is before the Internet and before cell phones, 682 00:35:47,039 --> 00:35:52,519 who was coordinating communications for the FBI agents, spotted the truck. 683 00:35:52,599 --> 00:35:54,679 He had heard them talking about it than the radio 684 00:35:55,159 --> 00:35:57,800 he spotted the truck on a nearby road. I think 685 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,679 it was probably Route seventeen for local folks, and he 686 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,159 radioed in and said, I'm driving next to the truck 687 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,239 that you agents are looking for. And he got the 688 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,920 license plate, which was, amazingly a vanity plate em raw 689 00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:15,679 ed m row, which is obviously an off colored joke 690 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,159 and a waterman and joke, if you will. Now they 691 00:36:19,199 --> 00:36:21,480 had a description of the truck and a license plate, 692 00:36:21,599 --> 00:36:25,559 and so a few days later FBI agents were at 693 00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:29,880 Wilmer's home and eventually they served a search warrant. They 694 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:35,960 found knives, guns, handcuffs, and an extensive collection of pornography, 695 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:41,280 and Wilmer they thought was an extremely likely suspect. And 696 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,760 then remember he was brought in for questioning. He was 697 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:49,119 given two polygraphic examinations. I've spoken to the polygraphic examiner myself. 698 00:36:50,199 --> 00:36:52,159 I know the FBI loves it when I tracked people 699 00:36:52,159 --> 00:36:55,360 down like this, And I spoke to the retired polygraphic 700 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,840 examiner myself two years ago, and he told me I 701 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,519 gave him two poly graphic exams. He passed one and 702 00:37:02,679 --> 00:37:05,199 the second one was inconclusive. As he said to me, 703 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,320 Bill that means I can't tell you whether he was 704 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,800 lying or not lying, whether he was deceptive not deceptive. 705 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,280 And he also said to me Bill, we should have 706 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,239 never let that guy go. They did let him go. 707 00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:20,800 And here's my question today, and I still can't get 708 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,360 a straight answer to this. Wilmer died at home in 709 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,559 his bed in twenty seventeen at his home in Lancaster County, Virginia. 710 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:34,360 Law enforcement tells me that he died and was alone 711 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,679 in his bed for I think close to a month. 712 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,360 Don't help me do exactly how many days, but he 713 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,039 was there four weeks and weeks and the body was 714 00:37:42,079 --> 00:37:46,920 in a very advanced state of decomposition. As I understand it, 715 00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:50,199 DNA tests were done in those remains to determine if 716 00:37:50,199 --> 00:37:54,320 that was Alan Wayde Wilmer Senior or someone else. They 717 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,159 identified him using DNA testing. Now flash forward, I think 718 00:37:59,159 --> 00:38:02,760 it's the twenty four, could be twenty three, but let's 719 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,480 go with twenty four. Somehow Wilmer moves back on to 720 00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:11,840 the FBI's radar. No one has ever explained to me 721 00:38:12,199 --> 00:38:16,079 and my satisfaction, how did Wilmer move back on to 722 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,880 the FBI's radar. We're never taking anybody to court here. 723 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,039 And I said this in the meeting because when I 724 00:38:22,119 --> 00:38:24,280 was pressing for answers and there was a lot of 725 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,719 hemming and hawing and we can't answer that and that 726 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,039 sort of thing. And I pushed hard and I said, look, folks, 727 00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:33,280 we're not taking anyone to court here. And I said 728 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,639 more than once. I believe I have a right to 729 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,039 this information. And I still believe that. And I'm not 730 00:38:39,119 --> 00:38:41,960 speaking for Bob Dewski, but I think Bob probably feels 731 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,000 the same way. I have never received any kind of 732 00:38:46,079 --> 00:38:50,239 adequate explanation as to why Wilmer moved back on to 733 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,440 the radar. I think it was for good reason, But 734 00:38:53,679 --> 00:38:57,599 what's the reason. It doesn't appear that they continued to 735 00:38:57,639 --> 00:39:00,920 follow up with Wilmer despite the fact that Alan Wade 736 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,519 Wilmer Senior, and I believe his older brother Keith Wilmer, 737 00:39:04,599 --> 00:39:08,239 William Keith Wilmer, who's a suspect in the Mary Caser 738 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,159 Harding murder up on the Rappahannock River, who died by 739 00:39:12,159 --> 00:39:16,400 the way in April twenty twenty five. I think that 740 00:39:16,519 --> 00:39:20,599 their failure to keep Wilmer on the short list is 741 00:39:20,679 --> 00:39:24,079 a major problem in this case. I want to know 742 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,800 how Wilmer ended up moving back on their radar. The 743 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,159 fact that he did is good police work, don't misunderstand me. 744 00:39:31,519 --> 00:39:34,519 But why was Wilmer ignored as far as I can tell, 745 00:39:34,599 --> 00:39:37,760 for decades and then I think in twenty twenty four 746 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,719 suddenly he's back on law enforcements radar? 747 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:41,280 Speaker 2: Why? 748 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 6: Yeah, I agree, I think that's a very important question 749 00:39:46,079 --> 00:39:50,400 to have answers too. We have many more listener questions 750 00:39:50,559 --> 00:39:53,320 to answer, so we are going to wrap this up 751 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,320 for now and continue with a second part before we close. 752 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,199 I want to make sure that I acknowledge how proud 753 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:08,239 I am of my podcast partner, Bill, because Bill, without you, we. 754 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 4: Would not be here today. This is you, This is 755 00:40:13,679 --> 00:40:14,360 your victory. 756 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:21,039 Speaker 6: And if the sentiments of people online is any indication, 757 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,320 they all believe that this case would not be where 758 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,239 it is right now if it were not for your 759 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,639 tireless work and advocacy. And I heartily believe that as well. 760 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,480 So I know you're not ready to take a victory 761 00:40:35,559 --> 00:40:39,360 lap yet, but you should. We are here because of you. 762 00:40:40,039 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 2: Thank you. 763 00:40:40,639 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 3: I see this as much more of a team effort. 764 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,679 But I appreciate what you're saying, and you're very kind. 765 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,639 Speaker 6: That is going to do it for this first episode. 766 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,159 I've asked us anything about the Kathy Thomas Rebecca Daowski solve. 767 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,400 But we are back for part two. Stay tuned, don't 768 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,280 go away, and thank you so much for listening. We'll 769 00:40:59,280 --> 00:40:59,960 see you next time. 770 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 771 00:41:13,079 --> 00:41:14,480 Another Dog Productions. 772 00:41:15,039 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 773 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,159 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 774 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud. 775 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 776 00:41:29,079 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 3: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 777 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,039 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 778 00:41:35,119 --> 00:41:36,920 Murders on Facebook. 779 00:41:36,679 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 3: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 780 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,360 Bill Thomas five six. 781 00:41:41,880 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.