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True Murder with your host, 52 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:37.560 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 53 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:52.560 Good evening. As the sun rises over the quiet city 54 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:55.840 of Kingston, New York. On July twelfth, nineteen eighty eight, 55 00:02:56.520 --> 00:02:59.759 a local transient discovers the remains of nineteen year old 56 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:03.840 Anna Kithcart. She was strangled and beaten to death, with 57 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:09.319 the letters KKK carved into her thighs, while her heartbroken 58 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:12.840 family mourns and the police work around the clock to 59 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:17.000 uncover the truth. The investigation is complicated by the entrance 60 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.560 of the Reverend Al Sharpton, who insists that a racist 61 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:25.319 killer is responsible. As investigators struggle to find evidence, Sharpton 62 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:28.879 and his supporters denounced the entire area as a clan 63 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:32.960 den and make public pronouncements that a racist cult is 64 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:37.759 operating throughout the area. Then, as if things can't get 65 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:40.520 any worse, the transient who found the body, confesses to 66 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:45.479 an unspeakable sexual act against the corpse. Almost immediately after 67 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:49.360 the media reports his alleged depravity, he changes his story 68 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:52.039 and accuses the police of making him a patsy and 69 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:56.120 a scapegoat. To add to the expanding circus, he tells 70 00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:59.879 the world he is really an undercover agent for the CIA, FBI, 71 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:03.319 and Inner Pool. Only solving the crime can quell the 72 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:06.039 chaos that threatens to ignite a powder keg of racial 73 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:09.800 tension and get past the rumors to catch the real killer. 74 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:14.800 But ken investigators overcome the outside forces that repeatedly sidetrack 75 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:19.000 their efforts. Find out in this new great true crime 76 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:23.079 book from Richard T. Khill, the author of Hopton's Ladder, 77 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:27.199 the book they're featuring the seating is sidetracked the betrayal 78 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:30.879 and murder of Anna Kithcart with my special guest, journalist 79 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:35.079 and author and attorney Richard T. Cahill. Welcome to the program, 80 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:37.120 and thank you very much for a green in this interview. 81 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:41.680 Richard T. K. Hill Junior, Hi, it's a pleasure to 82 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:48.120 be here. Thank you very much. Very very involved case, 83 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:55.040 very unusual. The incredible detail that you bring at the trial, 84 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:59.800 and we'll talk about that very very soon. First off, 85 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.600 what is your give our audience your personal background and 86 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:08.000 your personal connection to this case. And finally, how did 87 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:12.199 you come to be in a position to write Sidetracked? 88 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:16.680 Well as by way of background, I've been an attorney 89 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:19.680 for a little over twenty years. I was a prosecutor 90 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:23.480 at one time. Shortly thereafter I was a criminal defense attorney, 91 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:27.160 and for a number of years since then, I've been 92 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:30.600 practicing civil law. As far as how I got to 93 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:33.720 write Sidetrack, I had written my first book, which was 94 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:37.160 about the Lindberg kidnapping, and it was about a year 95 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:39.399 after it was released and I had some people asking me, Oh, 96 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:41.839 you're going to write another book. I thought, you know, 97 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:45.319 why not? It might be fun, and I started looking 98 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:47.839 around and then I suddenly realized there was a case 99 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:51.800 right here at home where I live that had a 100 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:54.959 lot of things that would really be interesting. It was 101 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:58.920 kind of personal to me because Victor Manny Kithgart was 102 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.000 a year ahead of me in high school. I knew her, and, 103 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:05.160 like many people in Kingston, was stunned when she was 104 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:09.079 found dead that July morning. I didn't know her that well. 105 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:12.879 She was very popular, big surprise. I was a geek, so, 106 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:15.839 you know. And I don't know if it's still this 107 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:18.759 way in school, but in those days, popular kids didn't 108 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.360 usually want to be seen with not so popular kids 109 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:24.439 unless they were, you know, making fun of them or whatever. 110 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:27.560 But Annie wasn't like that. She didn't care about that. 111 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:30.680 She was friendly to everybody, and little things like that 112 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.480 get remembered, especially when, like me, you're a not so 113 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:36.560 cool kid, And you know, there were a lot of 114 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:40.759 questions that I had that I wanted answered, and it had. 115 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:45.040 The case had so many interesting twists and turns, and 116 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:47.680 as I started researching it and realized that I could 117 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:49.560 not only write an interesting book about it, but I 118 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.720 could present Annie in the positive light that I always 119 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:56.199 felt she should have been presented yet wasn't. That's when 120 00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:58.879 I made the decision that this would be my second book. 121 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:05.839 Now, before we talk about July nineteen eighty eight, New York, Kingston, 122 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:12.279 you talk about a case that affects this case dramatically, 123 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:16.120 and there's another case that has similarities at least when 124 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:19.199 people to look at it initially, and that's the Tauana 125 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:23.560 Browley case. So tell us about what happened approximately a 126 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:28.759 year before Annie Kithcart was murdered. Before we talk about 127 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:32.879 what happened with her, what happened a year before, and 128 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:38.040 what was Reverend Sharpton's involvement all right. 129 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.439 In the latter part of November of the previous year. 130 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:45.000 In nineteen eighty seven, Tauana Brawley, sixteen year old African 131 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:48.680 American girl, just outside of Poughkeepsie, New York, place actually 132 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:53.240 called Wappinger's Falls, New York, which reported missing. She was 133 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:59.639 found on the lawn of property a apartment complex where 134 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.079 she had used to live, in a garbage bag, although 135 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.600 there were two witnesses who said they saw her climb 136 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:09.040 into the bag herself. Nevertheless, she was found in the bag. 137 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:13.839 Some of her hair had been cut, she had racial 138 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.199 slurs of a type that I won't go into detail 139 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:19.680 about on the program written on her in what appeared 140 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.439 to be charcoal, and she had dog feces smeared on him. 141 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:26.360 She was taken into the hospital. There were some officers 142 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:29.319 and one of the emergency room doctors who immediately suspected 143 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:33.440 that something was wrong because they did a test where 144 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:37.480 she was unsupposedly unconscious, So they picked up her hand 145 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:39.919 and held it over her face. Now, when they let 146 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:42.399 go o her hand, being unconscious, her hand should fall 147 00:08:42.519 --> 00:08:45.240 down and smack herself right in the face, But it 148 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:47.240 didn't move to the side of her head, which was 149 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:51.799 some indication that she was conscious. After a day or two, 150 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:55.720 through a member of her family, she made public her 151 00:08:55.720 --> 00:09:00.399 allegations as to what had happened. She alleged that I 152 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:02.600 believe it was five men in total, all of whom 153 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:06.519 were white, had basically kidnapped her, raped her, sodomrster her, 154 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:12.639 and treated her in despicable way solely because she existed 155 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:19.639 as an African American female. So this of course raised 156 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:26.159 tremendous media coverage. Very prominent members of the national African 157 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:29.559 American community came out and got involved. Bill Cosby as 158 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:32.000 an example. Know, he's had some problems in recent years, 159 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:34.799 but back then, you know, he was the you know, 160 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:36.559 he was the King of the Mountain. I mean, he was, 161 00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:39.639 you know, a major Hollywood star. Everybody loved him. He 162 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:42.559 came out in support Mike Tyson, who at that time 163 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:44.720 was the heavyweight champion of the world. He came out 164 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:48.759 and support a then young reverend named Al Sharpton, who 165 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:51.399 had come to some prominence over a matter, a couple 166 00:09:51.399 --> 00:09:53.639 of matters down in the city, the Crown Heights matter 167 00:09:53.679 --> 00:09:56.200 and a few others. He came into Poughkeepsie and they 168 00:09:56.240 --> 00:10:01.639 began making all kinds of accusations. Eventually accusations were made 169 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:05.080 accusing one of the assistant district attorneys, a man named Pagonus. 170 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:09.080 He was accused of being one of the perpetrators, as 171 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:12.120 was an officer who had unfortunately become depressed and committed 172 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:16.559 suicide named christ They accused him as well. Pagonus would 173 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:20.919 later sue them for libel and slander. The difference, of course, 174 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:24.559 libral was written, slander was verbal, and there was a 175 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:31.000 significant judgment entered against them. But in any instance, so 176 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.360 this is going on, and there's tremendous media coverage, and 177 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:41.480 shortly before the whole thing happened with any Kikart, one 178 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:47.840 of Sharpton's inner circle members came out publicly and made 179 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:51.080 a statement that Tawana Brawley wasn't telling the truth. 180 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:51.960 That. 181 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:57.480 Reverend Sharp and his supporters supposedly knew this, didn't care, 182 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:00.000 and that they were simply exploiting it for their own 183 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:05.960 political and perhaps financial gain. Sharpening supporters vehemently denied that. 184 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:08.960 They ended up going on a New York program television 185 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:13.200 program that existed then called The Richard Bay Show, and 186 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:17.799 they criticized that guy rather significantly and denied vehemently as allegations. 187 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:22.120 So you've got a situation now where you've got tremendous 188 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:26.080 racial strife that's going on in Poughkeepsie, which is about 189 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:29.919 twenty one to twenty two miles south of Kingston. But 190 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:33.639 the public is just starting to turn. It's starting to turn, 191 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:35.200 and people are starting to think, you know, maybe this 192 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:38.200 is not what it appears to be. And now the 193 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:42.080 morning of July twelfth, Anny kit Carter has found and 194 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:46.399 the body is found with the letters KKK carved into 195 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:49.559 her legs and a K into her stomach. And when 196 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:53.120 that came out, now suddenly sharpened. His supporters pivoted to 197 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:56.759 Kingston and began making accusations that the crimes were related, 198 00:11:57.240 --> 00:11:59.840 that the area was their words a quote planned in 199 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:03.159 close quote, and they said that a racist cult was 200 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:06.559 operating in the area and likely had committed both crimes. 201 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:10.120 And so the media circus came to Kingston. 202 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:16.360 Now, let's talk about how before we talk about the 203 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:20.159 crime scene itself and the murder scene and the description 204 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.720 of Anna's body as she was murdered. There's a central 205 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.120 character in here named Joseph Kernin and he's forty two 206 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:31.559 year old, unemployed person with a history of mental illness 207 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:35.360 as you write, and well known to police. Yeah, tell 208 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:38.480 us how it comes that he comes to the attention 209 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:41.240 of police. And you talk about the two nurses at 210 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:44.919 the nearby as you describe the very nearby hospital. So 211 00:12:44.919 --> 00:12:47.720 maybe you can also tell us the proximity of what 212 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:52.919 we're talking about here and what he finds and his 213 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:57.519 interaction with the two nurses from the hospital that night 214 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:00.720 or the next day, I should se all right. 215 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:02.519 Near the center of Kingston, there was a building that 216 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:05.320 at that time was called Kingston Hospital. It is still 217 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:08.200 today a hospital, but it has a different name, although 218 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:12.000 people here still called Kingston Hospital because to life on Kingstonians, 219 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:14.399 that's always what it was. Behind Kingston Hospital in the 220 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:19.080 nineteen eighties and earlier, there was a wooded area that 221 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:22.759 had a large lack of after term. A large trench 222 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:25.759 had been dug out because for years there were railroad 223 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:28.120 tracks that ran through there. In fact, those tracks were 224 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.240 used up until nineteen seventy five. At that time, they 225 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:34.000 were owned by a company called Conrail, and they made 226 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:38.639 the decision no longer to use it and became abandoned. 227 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:41.879 I can still remember from the house I grew up 228 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:43.960 in the first seven years of my life. I can 229 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.919 remember early on looking down and seeing those that train 230 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:50.279 going by. But then when I was four, it went away. 231 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:51.960 But I still remember that train because I remember it 232 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:53.440 was to go out in front of my house and look, 233 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:57.360 and there it was. But when the train was abanned, 234 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:01.080 those train tracks were abandoned. Nobody was maintained that railway bed. 235 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:04.919 So although the actual path itself where the tracks were 236 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:09.320 was clear, the area around it was overgrown and so forth. 237 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:12.159 And so this became a place. It ran right behind 238 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:14.519 the hospital, and this became a place during the day 239 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:16.799 where you'd see a lot of kids playing hooky from 240 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:19.600 school and things like that. Some people use it as 241 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:23.039 a shortcut to go places, but after dark it was 242 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:27.039 something different. You would see bums or homeless people going 243 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:30.080 back there. People would go back there to drink, do drugs, 244 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:34.519 engage in other activities, so it was not a place 245 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:36.759 you really wanted to be after dark. It was also 246 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:38.600 there was a very little light back there. What a 247 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:40.679 little light you'd get would be if you brought a 248 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:43.960 flashlight or if there was some moonlight. So this was 249 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:46.399 a pretty when it got dark, it was a pretty 250 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:51.399 spooky thing. In any instance. On the morning of July twelfth, 251 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:55.200 two nurses are walking up the road that ran along 252 00:14:55.399 --> 00:15:00.480 the side of Kingston Hospital was called Foxhall Avenue. Kingston 253 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:04.440 Hospital is on the corner of Foxhall on Broadway, and 254 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:06.960 you would go down Foxhall Avenue and then on the 255 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:08.879 as you went down and on your left hand side 256 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:12.039 you could see the entrance into the rail tracks, and 257 00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:14.960 even in daylight, it was very dark and gloomy on 258 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:16.600 There's a picture that I put in the book just 259 00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:18.960 to try to get people some idea that even in 260 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:22.159 the daylight this was a pretty gloomy, spooky looking place 261 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:25.919 because of all the overgrown brush overhead. So these two 262 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:28.120 women are walking to work nurses as you mentioned that 263 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.360 he worked at the hospital, and they're on their way 264 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:36.120 in and out comes Kiernanan Now Kiernan had the appearance 265 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:39.000 of a homeless man or a bump. He wasn't homeless, 266 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:44.159 but he had significant mental issues. As you mentioned, he 267 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:48.159 had run into the police, never anything serious minor stuff 268 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:52.159 that you might expect from someone who has significant mental issues, 269 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:56.360 like trespassing and things like that. Nothing ever major. He 270 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:00.799 wasn't a violent man by any stretch. He comes out 271 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:04.720 of the wooded area, he's clearly upset, about six thirty 272 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:07.000 in the morning, and he tells the woman that he's 273 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:09.279 found what he described. One moment said he used the 274 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:13.080 term love doll, another one said mannequin. He said, it's 275 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:15.960 either that or a body. So they told him to 276 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.320 go to a payphone, which of course was broken, as 277 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:21.120 they all were back in those days. But they eventually 278 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:23.679 called the police and when they all go back there, 279 00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:27.000 they find nineteen year old any Kid Card back there. 280 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:30.000 She had been strangled, which they would find out later. 281 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.240 It was obvious she'd been bludgeon because part of her 282 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.080 face around the orbital socket was basically crushed in. Her 283 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:41.320 body had been stripped except for one monthesin and her 284 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:43.679 brazier which had been pushed over her breast but was 285 00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:47.120 still on her and as we mentioned, she had the 286 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:50.600 letters KKK carved into her legs and large letter K 287 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:55.279 carved into her stomach. It was a gruesome crime scene. 288 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:57.720 I can tell you the hardest part about doing this 289 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:00.080 book was the day that I had a chance to 290 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.000 look at the actual crime scene photographs site. I wasn't 291 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:04.799 looking forward to it. I didn't enjoy it because I 292 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:06.599 knew her, I liked her, but she was a really 293 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.559 sweet person. And I've worked very hard in many ways 294 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:12.920 to push those out of my mind. But I had 295 00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:15.720 to see them in order to get a fair understanding 296 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:17.559 of what the crime scene was. I really didn't think 297 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:20.480 I could write a book and give any type of 298 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:23.319 analysis if I didn't see them. I didn't want to, 299 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:27.079 but I did. They were very disturbing, and I made 300 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:29.480 it and I promised to myself I would not use them, 301 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:32.319 and I didn't. There are some pictures in my book 302 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:34.240 that show the crime scene, but they don't show her 303 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:36.319 at the crime scene. I just couldn't do that to 304 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:38.480 her family or to her memory. It was just they 305 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:39.200 were just horrible. 306 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:45.759 Now you also talk about a piece of glass embedded 307 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:46.319 in her neck. 308 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:49.079 Yeah, they found a piece of grass that was embedded 309 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:52.720 in her neck. The belief is that glass was probably 310 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:55.519 what was used. They don't know for certain, but the 311 00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:59.160 belief was that was probably what was used to make 312 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:02.440 the scratches or the slice marks in her legs and stomach. 313 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:07.680 Now you talk about the detectives and the detective chrome, 314 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:13.000 he notices signs of struggle, and you talk about the 315 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:17.359 lacerations on her forehead and her face. What else does 316 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:20.480 he find in terms of evidence? I mean, there's you say, 317 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:24.319 there's so much refuse and things there. The trash is there. 318 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:29.400 But what do they assemble in terms of actual evidence? 319 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:33.319 Exhibits what they think is evidence and and tell us 320 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:34.799 what that see some of the things that they. 321 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:38.160 There was a second crime scene. I guess we'll soon, 322 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:41.000 but at that particular crime scene, tremendous number of things 323 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:44.119 there there was. It was garbage, There was bottles, there 324 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:49.160 were there were old clothes and some duffel bags and stuff. 325 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.200 They took a lot of things. Some had relation to 326 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:53.720 the crimes. Son didn't. One of the things they took 327 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:58.000 there was an orange plastic basin of the type you 328 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:00.640 would see at a hospital, not as an instance, the 329 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.799 behind one, and it was covered in blood. They took that. 330 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:10.720 They took the moccasin that was there. They obviously they 331 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:13.240 eventually collected the brassi that they left it on their body, 332 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.119 and they left the glass in her neck until the 333 00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:22.160 coroner and the pathologists could do their job. They took 334 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:25.240 dirt samples, they took samples of the blood, they took 335 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:29.759 they took in leaves that had blood on them. Of course, 336 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:33.480 they photographed everything. There's tons and tons of photographs that 337 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:37.319 they took, as they're supposed to. No video that wasn't done. 338 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.400 That's not all that uncommon at that time. Now it's 339 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:45.559 standard protocol. Then it was mostly photographs and they took 340 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:47.519 a whole variety of different things. I mean they took 341 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:51.359 in the neighborhood of like thirty to forty specific items. 342 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:53.039 Not all of them really had anything to do with 343 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:54.799 the crime, but you know, and that's the case. You 344 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:55.480 got to be thorough. 345 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:02.440 Now, you also talk about what they could surmise by 346 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:06.160 looking at the scene. You talk about that they you 347 00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:09.640 talk You already mentioned another crime scene. So tell us 348 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:13.759 what they could surmise and how they surmised what little 349 00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:17.119 they could deduce from this initial look at the crime 350 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:20.599 scene and her without talking to anybody else, like the 351 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:22.240 pathologists or anyone else. 352 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:26.000 As of yet, they were pretty sure, as you mentioned, 353 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:28.000 that there had been some kind of scuffle, because there 354 00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:30.599 was some some areas that look like they had been 355 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:34.440 freshly moved about. One of the things I didn't mention 356 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:36.680 that they took in evidence was they've found two pieces 357 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:39.160 of brick that had blood on it, right, which would 358 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:42.240 later be suggested was the murder weapon. It was never 359 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:44.640 definitively proven, but I think it's more likely than not 360 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:49.519 it was, and it was broken in half, likely from 361 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:52.960 the impact, and they were suspicious of that, so they 362 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:58.279 took that into evidence. You know, they the police in 363 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:03.039 their notes, don't really go in a much speculation. They 364 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.599 kept it pretty much to the facts. I mean, I 365 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:08.839 know from interviewing different people that there were some concerns 366 00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:12.359 right away that this was a racial crime. Annie was 367 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.519 of mixed parentage. Her father was African American, her mother 368 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:20.640 was Caucasian. Interestingly enough, and I mentioned this in the book, 369 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:24.480 Annie never considered herself black or white. She considered herself 370 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.640 both and never in her life that she did anybody 371 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:31.039 know of her ever have any trouble with that. But 372 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:33.240 there were some thoughts that could be racial. There were 373 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:35.200 some that thought, well, maybe this was a cover up. 374 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:41.440 You know, for the most part, the police didn't really 375 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:45.039 seem to let their reports reflect any type of speculation. 376 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:47.759 They kept the reports very professional and very to the point, 377 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:50.200 which turned out to be a good thing in light 378 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:52.720 of all of the media circus and the wild accusations 379 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:56.000 that would eventually be made by Sharpen and his supporters. 380 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:01.000 But you know they, you know they at that point, 381 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:04.319 they believed at that point, and it would later be 382 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:07.200 proven to be so that the killer had taken they 383 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:12.400 remainder that close with him, otherwise they would obviously be there. 384 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:14.960 They had to have been, although the reports don't discuss 385 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:17.720 it in detail, there was some initial thought that maybe 386 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:20.440 it had been sexual in nature. They couldn't tell just 387 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:22.599 by looking at the body if there had been sexual 388 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:26.160 aduced There wasn't they would later determine, but that was 389 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:28.279 something that was also on their minds as well. And 390 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:30.920 it's important in any type of investigation like that that 391 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:33.799 you keep an open mind and allow the evidence in 392 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.200 the facts to lead you and not try to twist 393 00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:38.880 the evidence and the facts into what needed to be 394 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:39.920 to fit your theory. 395 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:45.599 Now, with this gruesome crime scene and this incredible murder, 396 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:52.240 with the additional KKK carved on her body, what do 397 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:56.359 they do with Joseph Kernan? What does he say tell 398 00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:59.039 us about what they think, What does he say, What 399 00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:02.160 does he say in respects to what he found and 400 00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:04.079 how what's the police response. 401 00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:08.359