WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:05.599 Hi, it's your eccentric but quiet neighbor Ali Ward. Hey, 2 00:00:05.639 --> 00:00:09.519 how did you get here? Why don't we have flippers? 3 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:11.320 He is a fly, my cousin? 4 00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:12.800 What is life? 5 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:17.199 Welcome to Evolutionary Biology. Now this is a special episode 6 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:20.359 because frankly, I thought it was lost to extinction. I 7 00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:23.320 thought it was plum deed. I recorded it with an 8 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:26.399 evolutionary biologist who works at the same lab at Occidental 9 00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:30.079 College as our ornithologist from a few episodes back so 10 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:35.439 late last year, before I had better microphones or necessarily 11 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:39.600 a good interview rhythm down, I visited with this evolutionary 12 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:43.000 biologist and before the tape rolled, we talked about birds 13 00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:45.759 and our upcoming holiday plans, and then we sat down 14 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:49.320 to chat about natural selection. And then I lost the 15 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:52.280 file for like a lot of months, and I found 16 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:56.719 it on a drive recently, and oh, oh so exciting. 17 00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:59.000 It was like encountering a Dodo bird in a PF 18 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:03.200 Chinks parking lot. I was estatic. Another thing that's exciting. 19 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:06.920 Your support. Thank you to everyone funding the production of 20 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:10.640 this podcast on Patreon dot com slash ologies. It's run 21 00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:15.319 completely independently, and your pledges for as Lila as twenty 22 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:18.319 five cents an episode. Totally keep it going. I'm able 23 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:21.439 to pay an amazing editor What's Up Steven to cut 24 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:23.519 it all up and put it back together. You can 25 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:27.519 also support just by getting some sweet sweet Ologies merch. 26 00:01:27.680 --> 00:01:30.799 Get a shirt for twenty bucks on ologiesmerch dot com 27 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:34.640 in whatever color you want. Or you can support for free, 28 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:37.680 no money, just by telling a friend. Or you can 29 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:39.920 tweet about it or subscribe on iTunes. 30 00:01:39.959 --> 00:01:40.760 Are you subscribed? 31 00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:45.200 Go check? Sometimes Apple just unsubscribes me from things. And 32 00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:48.719 it also helps so much to rate or to leave 33 00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:52.359 a review for the podcast. This week, Ologies was number 34 00:01:52.439 --> 00:01:55.879 twenty in science podcasts on iTunes. Sure we had some 35 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:59.319 ghost podcasts to beat, but number twenty is thrilling as 36 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:02.439 hell for an indie podcasts. So I creep all your reviews. 37 00:02:02.840 --> 00:02:05.400 I read them all. I read every single one of them. 38 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:09.080 This one was really kind. Big zo Zoo says, you 39 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:11.000 are the podcast I'd want to buy a drink for 40 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:14.599 in a classy bar. The music is low, the mood 41 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:17.599 is right. I buy you the top shelf beverage of 42 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:19.680 your choice, and then you delight me with the most 43 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:24.879 interesting facts my brain could possibly absorb with gin. Thanks 44 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:28.479 for rocking mapod socks on the rocks. Well, you're welcome, 45 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:31.599 Big Zazoo. I'm trying to think what drink I would 46 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:35.080 order top shelf at a classy bar, and I'm like, 47 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:36.360 do they have wine spritzers? 48 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:36.719 No? 49 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:37.280 I don't know. 50 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:41.639 Okay, evolutionary biology, in this episode you're gonna pick up 51 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:47.919 some sweetest definitions like taxonomy, what is it, epigenetics, genetic drift, bilogyny, 52 00:02:48.039 --> 00:02:51.360 what is all this mouth salad? And you'll learn about 53 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:56.599 some crowd sourced cancer fixers, some super erotic whales, some 54 00:02:56.719 --> 00:03:01.599 finch gossip relationship goals, and about how Charles Darwin had 55 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:05.280 a wonderful but super shitty but also wonderful life that 56 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:09.680 involved probably a lot of bad toilet experiences and a 57 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.360 lust for a family member who was it. So please 58 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:17.639 enjoy this chat that essentially boils down to our mutations 59 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:21.240 are our strengths and adaptability. 60 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:21.560 Is a virtue. 61 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:25.719 Meet evolutionary biologist John McCormick. 62 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:48.360 Okay, no, that works. 63 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:53.000 So are you and by trade, are you an evolutionary biologist? 64 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:57.919 Yes, that's kind of wear a couple of different hats. 65 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:01.680 I'd say evolutionary biologist is probab Probably the broadest one. 66 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:05.840 Sometimes I consider myself an ornithologist as well, I should 67 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:08.120 hope so as the curator of a bird collection. 68 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:10.479 So do you would you say that you have like 69 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:13.639 genus and species on the brain a lot? 70 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:16.439 Oh, yeah, h yeah, all the time, because that's a 71 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:18.639 lot of what we do here with a with a 72 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:22.839 specimen collection, just you know, naming the basic units of biodiversity. 73 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:26.519 Do you remember as a kid in class learning the like, 74 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:27.959 what was it, King Philip? 75 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:30.720 What is the Yeah? 76 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:31.439 What is it again? 77 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:32.879 Well, I can't remember it. 78 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:39.000 Let's talk taxonomy, which is how science organizes things. So 79 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:42.079 you may have learned that plants and fungi and animals 80 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:46.759 are classified into domain, kingdom, class, order, family, genus, and species. 81 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:50.480 And you're like, wow, Alli, that is amazing. How did 82 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:54.079 you memorize that you were a genius? And I know 83 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:58.560 that's what you're thinking now. The mnemonic device is clutch here. 84 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:01.199 I never remember the new device for this. I remember 85 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:03.399 we learned one. I think it was like, dear King 86 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:07.800 Philip came over from Germany. Comma, So, which is weird? 87 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:11.439 Who ends? What's the so about? What's the rest of 88 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:14.600 the story? Anyway, I never remembered it. Dear King Philip 89 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:20.319 came over for grape soda is another way to remember kingdom, class, order, family, genus, species. 90 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:25.040 Another alternative you could use is dickish Ken poured coffee 91 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:30.959 on Fran's good shirt, fuck off Ken, or dang kinky 92 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:34.639 people come over for group sex, which is apparently what 93 00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:38.279 some biology teachers use. They're like, they know marketing, they 94 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:41.000 know how to get your attention. Don't kick people coming 95 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:44.279 from Goldman Sachs is another alternative, depending on how your 96 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:47.240 thoughts about it. So calling an organism or a specimen 97 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:50.160 by its genus and species, it's kind of like saying 98 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:54.040 your last name first. But it's what we call linean taxonomy. 99 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:59.279 Even though Swedish ecologist Carl Linius he didn't really invent it. 100 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:02.639 Someone else did. It was kind of already established. So 101 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:07.480 John wasn't busy learning Carl Lineus pneumonic memory devices in 102 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:10.160 high school, but he was down with a different Carl, 103 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:15.279 Carl Sagan, who, despite being an astronomer and a cosmologist, 104 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:16.519 he wrote about evolution. 105 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:21.600 We sometimes represent evolution as the ever branching ramifications of 106 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:26.439 some original trunk, each branch pruned and clipped by natural selection. 107 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:30.480 Sagan has an eight minute animated video that essentially details 108 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:33.879 the journey from a single celled animal to a poll 109 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:38.800 up on the seafloor, to humans, jowless fishy ancestors, to 110 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:42.720 an amphibian to a shrew, to primates to apes, branching 111 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:46.600 off into bipedal creatures with big brains. The poke stuff 112 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:49.519 and will eventually invent things like game shows and salad 113 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:52.920 spinners human beanks. I added that last part because I'm 114 00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:56.279 writing this in bed. Honestly, evolution and humanity are kind 115 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:59.959 of freaking me out. It's like nothing matters, but everything matters, 116 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:03.920 everything changes. We're all mutable. How did I get here? 117 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:05.959 Think of all the people that had to mate in 118 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:07.639 order for me to be alive? Right now? 119 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:09.399 What have I even done with my day? 120 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:13.120 Anyway? What is it about the linean system of taxonomy 121 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:14.959 that you dig well? 122 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:19.240 I've always been an organizer and a list maker, and 123 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:21.600 so it always appealed to me. You know, when I 124 00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:25.279 found out about it, it was a lot of taxonomy. 125 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:27.439 Is lists an organization? 126 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:30.399 I like that in your regular life, your day to 127 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:34.480 day life, are you as organized as you are as 128 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:37.639 a scientist, or is your house just like a disaster 129 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:40.360 and you're not sure, like you don't have a Christmas list? 130 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:41.000 Isn't ready? 131 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:44.759 Like yeah, well, unfortunately, that's kind of the plight I 132 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:50.600 think of the academic is to be extremely busy and 133 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:54.360 wearing a lot of hats. And I'm certainly not as 134 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:55.879 organized as I would like to be. 135 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:00.120 It's a difficult admission for you. 136 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:00.600 A little bit. 137 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:05.199 Yeah, you know, I guess I'm still i'd say fairly 138 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:09.839 organized about my things. But yeah, in terms of just 139 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:13.759 general life and scheduling and things like that, it's a 140 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:16.680 bit of the disaster you might expect from an academic. 141 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:20.399 And so tell me a little bit about when you 142 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:23.959 first kind of grasped the concept of evolution. When did 143 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:26.920 you start to realize, okay, mutations are responsible for a 144 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:31.199 lot of these different appearances and behavior and capabilities of animals. 145 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:33.279 Like when did you start to get excited about evolution? 146 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:35.639 I think it was when I was doing some of 147 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.240 those early readings in high school. You know, I know 148 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:42.639 there are other people that have spoken at more length 149 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:46.840 about evolution than Carl Sagan, who was principally an astronomer 150 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:51.720 or cosmologist, and but it was some of his books, 151 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:55.919 the delve Moore into evolutionary ideas that got me into it. 152 00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:59.360 From there, John studied at University of Arizona and he 153 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:04.080 took class by doctor Nancy Moran, who I looked her up. 154 00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:07.960 She is a badass and a MacArthur fellow. She researches 155 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:10.840 the gut biome of aphids. 156 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:13.039 And it was really there for the first time that 157 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:17.000 I learned just kind of the basic framework of evolution 158 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:22.639 and its processes mutation, natural selection, and then some things 159 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:25.919 I'd never heard of, like genetic drift, which is the 160 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:31.519 sort of random way that evolution can can take gene 161 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:34.919 frequencies and populations, and that there were whole aspects of 162 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:38.279 it I hadn't heard of. That was pretty exciting too. 163 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:42.399 What's an example of genetic drift? How do you describe 164 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.480 that at a cocktail party to someone who's half a 165 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:46.840 glass of chardonnay. 166 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:50.159 In Well, I guess I'd point to the eminem bowl 167 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:51.240 and I'd say. 168 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:55.679 Uh, okay, so see that eminem bowl. Genetic drift is when. 169 00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:58.559 You take a small handful of Eminem's and you end 170 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:04.279 up with three green ones instead of the full, you know, 171 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:08.080 rainbow of colors. That's genetic drift, and that's what can 172 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:13.240 happen in populations. Sometimes generation to generation, you don't always 173 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:16.159 get a random draw of the genes that are out there. 174 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:19.840 Sometimes you get a very non representative draw, and that 175 00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:21.720 can have a big influence on evolution. 176 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:22.600 And I. 177 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:26.000 Kind of like the idea that there's that sort of 178 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:28.519 chance element in there too, as well as kind of 179 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:32.039 the more what we call deterministic or kind of the 180 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:35.039 more predictable outcomes of natural selection. 181 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:39.720 Are there any movies or TV shows about evolution that 182 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:45.480 you either really like or they really annoy you, Like, 183 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:46.639 that's not evolution. 184 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:48.440 That's a great question. You know. 185 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:51.960 Gatica comes to mind as one that's actually a fairly 186 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:57.600 interesting and informed movie with evolutionary ideas. It's been long 187 00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:00.399 enough since I've seen it that I can't really tell 188 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:03.799 you that much, but you know, the ideas of what 189 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:08.720 can happen with genetic engineering and kind of our more 190 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:13.240 consumer based eugenics that we have now are kind of, 191 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:16.840 you know, enhancing our genes because we want to, and 192 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:19.399 some of the outcomes pretty interesting. 193 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:21.919 How do you I did talk about Gatica in the 194 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:26.279 Paleontology episode about how I always really respected that they 195 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:32.279 only used at GC no at gc whatever to make 196 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.240 the name right, that's pretty dope. How do you feel 197 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:37.519 about crisper and gene editing? 198 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:40.879 On the one hand, it's incredibly exciting. I mean, I 199 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:44.759 think people tend to focus in on the aspects of 200 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:49.440 it that involve genetic engineering and humans, and that is 201 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:53.879 one avenue that obviously a lot of caution needs to 202 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:58.960 be taken. But there's so many other applications of crisper 203 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:03.720 technology just to the study of evolution that it's really 204 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:09.279 quite exciting. I mean, the possibilities for experimental evolution are 205 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:12.039 vast and that's great. 206 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:14.759 So what is it about birds that make them prime 207 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:17.039 for studying evolutionary biology? 208 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:19.039 Why birds? Well, people freaking love birds. 209 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:23.679 There have been a lot of them observed, described, collected, 210 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:27.240 so there's a good base of knowledge there as opposed 211 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:30.279 to like slime molds, which nobody goes to hunt down 212 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:33.039 and marvel at. Probably a few people do, and I 213 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:36.679 hope they're friends with each other. But anyway, birds and. 214 00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:38.919 The starting place for a lot of that is what 215 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:42.360 is the evolutionary tree of relationships? Just knowing who is 216 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:46.519 related to whom is an important starting point and if 217 00:12:46.519 --> 00:12:49.320 you don't have that then that's kind of your first step. 218 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:52.799 And so with birds, they've been worked out well enough 219 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.039 that that first step is kind of already completed and 220 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:59.440 you can sort of jump to answering some of the 221 00:12:59.799 --> 00:13:01.919 the broader questions. 222 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:05.279 Because you know the characters in the storyct exactly right. 223 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:09.480 Let's take a quick Darwin detour. Who was he? Why 224 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:11.759 should you care? I'm gonna run this down as quick 225 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:14.200 as I can for you. So. Charles Robert Darwin was 226 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.559 born in England in the early eighteen hundreds. His father 227 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:21.240 was a super rich doctor, and Darwin tried to go 228 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:22.399 to medical school. 229 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.879 But he hated it. He hated it. 230 00:13:25.639 --> 00:13:29.360 He was also the grandson of prominent abolitionists, which is school. 231 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:34.000 And he loved nature and geology. He loved collecting beetles. God, 232 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:37.559 he loved it. His dad was like, kiddo, you're a loser, 233 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:40.679 and Darwin's like, Dad, can I just go on this boat, 234 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:43.320 the HMS Beagle and travel the world and I'll write 235 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:43.639 about it? 236 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:45.679 Will you please finance it? Rich dad? 237 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.960 And his dad reluctantly agreed, but at one point said 238 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.360 to him, you're married for this quote. You care for 239 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:55.399 nothing but shooting dogs and rat catching, and you will 240 00:13:55.440 --> 00:14:00.720 be a disgrace to yourself and all your family. But haha, 241 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.080 jokes on you, Pop, He wasn't a disgrace to his 242 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:11.679 whole family. Chris Charles Darwin married his cousin. Oh yeah. Apparently, 243 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:14.519 when he was considering taking on a cousin bride, he 244 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:18.440 was so accustomed to filling notebooks with thoughts on various 245 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.639 specimens and animal breeding and stuff that he scrawled out 246 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:28.039 a page with one column headed Mary and another not Mary. Now. 247 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:33.080 Advantages of marriage included quote constant companion and friend in 248 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:37.559 old age better than a dog. Anyhow, Well, I don't 249 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:41.360 know if I agree with that. Cons were less money 250 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:47.120 for books and terrible loss of time. So constant companion, 251 00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:49.840 friend and old age better than a dog, or less 252 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:52.399 money for books and a terrible loss of time. Hm hm. 253 00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:54.679 He decided to make this. 254 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:58.840 Family affair into a family affair, and he had. 255 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:00.000 Several babies with his cousin. 256 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:06.200 Back to the Beagle, Charles Darwin did a bunch of writing, 257 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:09.879 kind of like travel blogging, but with more dysentery and 258 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:13.799 smeared ink, and his diaries were made into a popular book, 259 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.720 The Voyage of the Beagle. It was on these travels 260 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:19.679 that he started to come up with a theory of evolution, 261 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:24.480 but it took him years of tankering and rewriting an 262 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:27.679 illness which may or may not have been shagas disease 263 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:32.000 from a parasite on something called an assassin bug. And 264 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:35.879 he was also a little thwarted by I think procrastination. 265 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:40.600 But finally he published his on the Origin of species 266 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:44.879 his book in eighteen fifty nine. It was a huge deal. 267 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:47.919 He also kind of published it alongside a contemporary of his, 268 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:52.519 Alfred Wallace. Now Alfred Wallace never heard of him before 269 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:55.879 I started researching this episode. He was working on a 270 00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:59.039 super similar theory, but he had a harder and more 271 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:04.440 impoverished life than Darwin. Like Wallace's ship full of work 272 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:07.519 sank to the ocean floor. He was a drift at 273 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.600 sea on a lifeboat, Alfred Wallace, who no one ended 274 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.600 up caring about. But back to Darwin on the beagle trip, 275 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:18.159 so Darwin stopped for supplies in the Galapagos Islands off 276 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:20.919 the coasts of South America, and he noticed that different 277 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:24.360 animals on different islands had slightly different features. For example, 278 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:27.519 all those finches, why do they have different beak shapes? 279 00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:30.639 They got crushing bills, they got probing bills, they got 280 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:31.600 grasping bills. 281 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:32.720 What are these bills? 282 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.679 Ah? They must be adapted for different food sources on 283 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:41.440 each little, tiny island climate. So he theorized, were you 284 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.720 really inspired by Darwin's finches? Was that a big deal 285 00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:49.240 for you at some point where the kind of evolution 286 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:53.759 natural selection and birds and specialization of beaks and colors? 287 00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:55.440 Did that inspire you a lot? 288 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:56.639 Absolutely? 289 00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:00.559 Because you know, it's just it's such a great because 290 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:04.200 it's kind of the complete package in terms of evolution 291 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:09.279 happening on a short timescale that humans can observe. It's 292 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:13.000 happening in sort of a contained environment that you can 293 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:16.799 wrap your mind around. Right this island where Peter and 294 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:20.079 Rosemary Grant studied the finches. You know, you could walk 295 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:21.559 around it in an hour. 296 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.519 I did not know who Peter and Rosemary Grant were. 297 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:28.720 Oh man, oh god, oh man. Okay, if you've been 298 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:32.680 in morning since Branjelina split, have I got a couple 299 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:33.240 for you? 300 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:34.400 Boy? Howdy? 301 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:38.519 What sexy motherfuckers? Now? Born In nineteen thirty six, this 302 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:43.640 British evolutionary biologist couple went to Daphne Major, Galapagos island 303 00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:47.440 and they've been studying the finches there since nineteen seventy three. 304 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:50.319 They lived together on a remote island half the year 305 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:52.799 and our Princeton professors the other half. 306 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:53.960 Who are these. 307 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:57.160 Sensual lovers, Well, they met when Rosemary was lecturing in 308 00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:02.359 embryology and genetics. Peter was still a zoology grad student 309 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:06.799 and her teaching assistant. But they've been married like fifty 310 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:11.839 six years and they've been capturing, tagging, tracking these finches 311 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:14.759 in the Galapagos, and they've been able to show that 312 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.720 natural selection can be observed within even a couple of years. 313 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:22.160 Darwin thought this took eons before you could see natural selection. 314 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:24.720 They're like, nope, check this out. We figured it out. 315 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:27.720 It can happen super quick. And yes, Rosemary and Peter 316 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:31.440 Grant did produce offspring, two daughters, one of whom I 317 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:33.559 just found and followed it on Instagram. I think she 318 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.720 studies psychology and is into making cakes. Have I mentioned 319 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:40.119 I'm creepy. I just I just want to be friends. 320 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:43.880 I just want to be friends. Okay, So back to 321 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:45.119 the finches, and. 322 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:47.880 There were maybe you know, a thousand or a couple 323 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.400 thousand inches on the island. They could catch them all 324 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:52.920 and have them color banded, and so it's kind of 325 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:56.400 one of those you know, it's almost evolution and a 326 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:01.079 test tube, but the test tube is nature, and then 327 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.599 the other aspect about it is just kind of, you know, 328 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:07.559 the romance of field work in a far away island. 329 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:09.759 There's a great book called The Beak of the Finch 330 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:15.119 that sort of follows the grants and their graduate students 331 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:20.640 on this this decade long chase for uncovering evolution, and 332 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:23.519 that was really inspiring for me because it kind of 333 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:26.359 it dispelled some of the some of the myths of 334 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.799 field work, like you know, it's all fun and hanging 335 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:33.960 out on the beach. It's a lot of hard work. 336 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:38.880 I imagine, less margaritaes. That's more like bugs in your clothes, 337 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:39.880 that's right. 338 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:45.599 And scorching hot sun. But that story, I just think 339 00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:51.319 it's so inspirational and it's so easy to grasp, and 340 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:53.440 so that's why I make it a point. Just last week, 341 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.960 I have an entire class, two classes in fact, where 342 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:01.039 I walk through the Darwin's Finch exam with my students 343 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:03.799 and my evolution class and kind of give them the 344 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:04.519 whole story. 345 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:08.880 How do you feel about people going to the Galapagos 346 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.640 as tourists. Does it piss you off? 347 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:16.400 No, it doesn't, you know, And I've actually been there 348 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:20.279 myself as a tourist. Any situation where people are out 349 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:24.039 there enjoying nature and to see people making such a 350 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:29.480 long trip at such expense to see nature firsthand and 351 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:33.880 to see the work of evolution, that makes me happy. Now, sure, 352 00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:38.119 once you get there, there's always cases that you can 353 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:40.400 look at that make you grumpy. You know, the person 354 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:44.000 with the camera right in the face of the you know, 355 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:47.279 the seal. But I try to take a broader picture, 356 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:50.839 and I think of how great it is that people 357 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.519 can get so excited about biodiversity. 358 00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:58.400 I once went to an island in Thailand and I 359 00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:03.319 saw a tourist tipping back a pepsi into the mouth 360 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:08.200 of a monkey, and I had a hard time with that. 361 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:10.880 I was like, we shouldn't We should all go home. 362 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:13.279 It's like, this shouldn't be happening. 363 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:18.640 There's plenty of ways that you can observe humans interacting 364 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:22.440 stupidly with nature, and right now, with social media, you know, 365 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:27.920 we could just do nothing but watch humans interacting stupidly 366 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:30.480 with nature. And so I mean, it's a concern. Right, 367 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:34.799 it's a problem and people need to be educated. But again, 368 00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:39.640 I think, taking a slightly more optimistic sort of broad viewpoint, 369 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:43.319 I'm glad that people are jazzed up about nature. 370 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:46.640 Right. Do you ever look at yourself or people in 371 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:49.160 your life and say, way to go, j man. I 372 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:51.440 am the result of a bunch of evolution. 373 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:57.559 It is a pretty marvelous thing when you think about it. 374 00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:01.799 I tend to not focus so much on humans as 375 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:03.000 the pinnacle of evolution. 376 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:03.680 Ouch. 377 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:08.039 Yes, okay, reminder, humans not the pinnacle of evolution. You 378 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:09.480 have a point, and I like. 379 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:14.599 To look at other situations and marvel over the millions 380 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:20.039 of years of evolution that produce some remarkable radiation of birds, 381 00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:24.799 for example. But when you stop to think about it, 382 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:32.720 everything that's alive today is the survivor of essentially three 383 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:38.000 point seven billion years of evolution. All those species, millions 384 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.960 and millions of species that are crawling around on this 385 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:45.839 very thin crust of the earth are the products of 386 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:50.720 that three point seven billion years of evolution. And it's 387 00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:53.880 a remarkable thing, you know, in each one, even from 388 00:22:53.920 --> 00:23:00.599 a bacteria to a human, has evolved just as much 389 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.759 through just as much time. I think It's easy to 390 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:07.839 think about certain species alive today as being more evolved 391 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:12.880 than others because maybe they have a few more adaptations 392 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:15.799 or they look more complex. But at the end of 393 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:21.039 the day, that bacterium and that human were all the 394 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:23.319 products of three point seven billion years of evolution. 395 00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:26.359 Even if you do nothing but play World of Warcraft 396 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:29.880 and eat from a barrel of cheese puffs, you're still a. 397 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:38.599 Winner, right, You are the product of winners. You got 398 00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:43.440 here because your ancestors won the evolutionary game. Now what 399 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:48.400 you choose to do with all that winning is another question. 400 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:51.440 That's a very diplomatic way of saying, don't just play 401 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:55.240