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Speaker 3: Welcome back to gun Talk, Tom Gresham here. If you
Speaker 3: want to give us a call, it's easy. Just call
Speaker 3: me a Tom Talk gun All right, So here's the deal.
Speaker 3: If we were have a contest in the gun and
Speaker 3: hunting industry, we're going to submit our entry into the
Speaker 3: most Interesting Man. I'm going to nominate Tim Soundles from
Speaker 3: Buffalo Bar Ammunition. Tim, you are the guy. You're there
Speaker 3: in sam And, Idaho. You make fabulous AMO and you
Speaker 3: hunt all over the world. So what do you been
Speaker 3: up to?
Speaker 4: That's fun?
Speaker 5: Well, I've been up to a three legs spinal fusion.
Speaker 4: Oh gee, that sounds like so much fun.
Speaker 6: Well, I had so much.
Speaker 5: I'd broke my back in my twenties and I had
Speaker 5: so much stenosis building up in my spine. I was
Speaker 5: in Africa, and I knew something went horribly wrong all
Speaker 5: of a sudden in my back and what had happened
Speaker 5: as a facet joint had actually fractured from the stenosis.
Speaker 6: And so here I am in Africa.
Speaker 5: Technically a broken back, and I'm like, oh, I got
Speaker 5: to get back to the States.
Speaker 6: Something is really wrong.
Speaker 5: Well, we were bombing Iran at the time, and all
Speaker 5: these African flights go over the Middle East, and so
Speaker 5: airspace is closed down.
Speaker 6: I'm stuck with a broken back.
Speaker 5: I didn't know if it was broken, but I knew
Speaker 5: something was bad, and so trying to get back to
Speaker 5: the States is a real trip. I ended up in Istanbul,
Speaker 5: and from Istanbul I was able to to catch a
Speaker 5: flight to Dallas. And you know, once you make it
Speaker 5: to the States, you can get anywhere you need to go.
Speaker 5: You ask what I've been doing for fun? I have
Speaker 5: been teaching a woman and her son. They are Californians.
Speaker 5: They moved here because they could see what was happening
Speaker 5: in California, and I've been teaching them a little bit
Speaker 5: on the AR fifteen and the CIGP three sixty five
Speaker 5: because that's what she has.
Speaker 4: It's fun to bring somebody into the shooting world, isn't it?
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, And you know you're just, let's face it,
Speaker 5: the emerging market, the emerging force that should be a
Speaker 5: bigger force.
Speaker 6: Than it is is the female shooter.
Speaker 4: All right.
Speaker 3: So I got to ask you, you're trying to figure
Speaker 3: out exactly how to put this. You have a tendency
Speaker 3: to stir it up on the internet because you just
Speaker 3: tell people how it really is, and people want to
Speaker 3: go through all the numbers and the energy and the
Speaker 3: ballistic charts, and you say, yeah, but I've shot a
Speaker 3: thousand animals, like dozens and dozens of bears. Here's what
Speaker 3: really works versus what your charts tell you. What does
Speaker 3: it you know that actually works.
Speaker 5: I would say first is penetration and as long as
Speaker 5: you can get enough.
Speaker 6: Penetration to do the job. Second is bullet diameter.
Speaker 5: And people have no idea that if they haven't killed
Speaker 5: hundreds and hundreds and hundreds ahead of big game, they
Speaker 5: have no idea how the killing dynamics change as board
Speaker 5: diameter goes up or down.
Speaker 3: What you're saying is, use a big bullet and drive
Speaker 3: it through to where it needs.
Speaker 5: To go, assuming enough velocity, and you know velocity changes
Speaker 5: it longer ranges, and so assuming enough velocity and assuming
Speaker 5: a bullet designed to penetrate deep enough to get the
Speaker 5: job done, bore diameter makes the biggest difference that I've
Speaker 5: ever seen in killing ability on large animal.
Speaker 3: You are known as the guy who has shot a
Speaker 3: incredible number of animals with handguns. You've been a handgun
Speaker 3: hunter forever, and you explore the world of the big
Speaker 3: boar handguns. So I just posted something on x I
Speaker 3: was just poking the bear and I said, look, you
Speaker 3: guys understand that a forty five caliber bullet has twenty
Speaker 3: seven percent more surface area at the nose than a
Speaker 3: ten milimeter bullet. You'd think I'd been called in their
Speaker 3: mother's names or something, But look, similimm is not bad.
Speaker 3: You've got a lot of great loads that you have
Speaker 3: for that. But as that me plat, that big flat
Speaker 3: area on a flat nosed bullet gets bigger and bigger.
Speaker 4: Things change, don't they.
Speaker 5: They change incredibly. And I was the first person I
Speaker 5: knew about that started getting on the internet and going, okay,
Speaker 5: you guys that are worshiping the ten mm for defense
Speaker 5: against grizzly bears or moose's it's not that you're making
Speaker 5: a mistake, because the tenmm has been proven with proper
Speaker 5: deep penetrating bullets and so we know it will work.
Speaker 5: But I said to people, you're missing the boat. A
Speaker 5: two hundred and fifty or fifty five two hundred and
Speaker 5: fifty five grain forty five caliber bullet out of a
Speaker 5: forty five ACP at plus P velocities, which is a
Speaker 5: little over nine hundred feet a second. Most of my
Speaker 5: five inch guns are shooting at nine hundred and sixty
Speaker 5: or nine hundred and seventy feet a second, it will kill.
Speaker 5: If you're taking body shots, I mean brain shots, it
Speaker 5: doesn't matter. You know, if you can get you can
Speaker 5: get into the brain with any caliber bullet, it's a
Speaker 5: dead animal. But if you're taking body shots, which is
Speaker 5: usually the way it happens, because brain shots on a
Speaker 5: charging bear are very difficult to make sure unless the
Speaker 5: bear's on top of it, which you really don't want
Speaker 5: to push it. To that point, the forty five ACP
Speaker 5: with a heavy bullet that doesn't expand which handgun velocities,
Speaker 5: expansion just kills penetration.
Speaker 3: Good point, yeah, because if you have expansion, then you
Speaker 3: always are going to have less penetration.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like opening a parachute. And the same isn't
Speaker 5: true with high powered rifles because you're using a bullet
Speaker 5: with much higher sectional density and generally higher velocity to
Speaker 5: push that higher sectional density bullet. Handguns use low sectional
Speaker 5: density bullets.
Speaker 3: Let me pay Let me back up here, because you're saying,
Speaker 3: because I'm thinking you have four to fifty four cassou
Speaker 3: forty five you know, maybe a hopped up forty five COVID,
Speaker 3: you're saying a forty five ACDP like out of a
Speaker 3: nineteen eleven or an eight K or something.
Speaker 5: Yes, I mean, let's let's remember we're pushing two hundred
Speaker 5: and fifty grain bullets at plus p velocities, which is
Speaker 5: close to one thousand feet a second. When when the
Speaker 5: forty five Colt Cartures was designed as a cavalry gun,
Speaker 5: it was given to the cavalry men and this is
Speaker 5: I'm going like eighteen seventies. It was given to the
Speaker 5: cavalrymen to shoot horses. And they were pushing a two
Speaker 5: hundred and fifty grain bullet at one thousand feet a
Speaker 5: second and it, I mean it would just go right through.
Speaker 6: Both shoulders on a horse.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 5: And so we're doing the same thing with the forty
Speaker 5: five ACP. But what happens is the internet experts that
Speaker 5: have never killed a bear probably never even seen a
Speaker 5: bear in the wild. I mean, maybe it is zoo
Speaker 5: or something. They go, oh no, no, here's the numbers
Speaker 5: on that. You're wrong. You're wrong. And I've reached a
Speaker 5: point where all I do is go, well, tell me
Speaker 5: how many bears you've killed. And if you haven't killed
Speaker 5: a bear, would you please close your mouth and open
Speaker 5: your ears, because if you count all the bears've I
Speaker 5: mean I've guided tons of people to bears and seen
Speaker 5: them shot and killed. And I've killed, like you said,
Speaker 5: dozens and dozens of bears myself, both grizzlies and black bears,
Speaker 5: more black bears than grizzlies. And I've done some of
Speaker 5: that with forty five ACP and the ten mm.
Speaker 4: So you have the experience, you know what works.
Speaker 6: Well.
Speaker 5: I can tell you that with body shots that twenty
Speaker 5: seven percent greater surface area makes a difference. And I
Speaker 5: mean I see it in Africa. I step up from
Speaker 5: say a four sixteen for sixteen anything, be it Rigby, Remington, whatever,
Speaker 5: a four sixteen, I step up to a four or
Speaker 5: five eight lot, and there's a noticeable difference on how
Speaker 5: it hammers a buffalo. But you got to shoot a
Speaker 5: lot of cape buffalo to see the difference because one
Speaker 5: offs don't count.
Speaker 3: Okay, That's the other thing is people say we you know,
Speaker 3: I've shot ten deer.
Speaker 4: I actually recovered seven of them.
Speaker 3: You're going, okay, I'm I'm not all that impressed at
Speaker 3: this point versus Tim who has shot one thousand plus
Speaker 3: animals and see what really works out there, Because you're right,
Speaker 3: one or two or even ten, it's not at large
Speaker 3: enough sample base.
Speaker 6: No, it really isn't.
Speaker 5: And of course people that are trying to learn on
Speaker 5: the internet, they're trying to learn, but who can authoritatively
Speaker 5: teach this stuff. Almost nobody unless they've just gone out
Speaker 5: and killed one thousand or two or three thousand big
Speaker 5: game animals.
Speaker 6: And like even on Kate Buffalo.
Speaker 5: You know I've got I don't keep count like some
Speaker 5: people do, but I've got several dozen Kate buffalo under
Speaker 5: my belt. Well that's enough for me to start seeing
Speaker 5: what is working better versus what is not working as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can spot the trends, all right, So let's
Speaker 3: switch over. Let me talk about your business. How did
Speaker 3: you get in and make an M one?
Speaker 5: The first place, I was friends with John Linebaw and
Speaker 5: line Baw was just coming out with the five hundred
Speaker 5: line Baw and Ross Seifried was writing about it in
Speaker 5: Probably was was it Guns and Ammo? And it was
Speaker 5: on the cover of the magazine. Well, you know, Ross
Speaker 5: had an experimental gun that John had built for him.
Speaker 6: And I called up John because his number was in.
Speaker 5: The article, and I said, I want you to build
Speaker 5: me this, this, this, this, this, And I said, I
Speaker 5: said I want a low serial number, and he goes, well,
Speaker 5: you're the first.
Speaker 6: Order, so you'll get that.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So so he gave me serial number two because
Speaker 5: ciphereds he had marked number one. And that's basically how
Speaker 5: I got into I've been handloading since I was thirteen.
Speaker 5: My dad taught me to handload ammo. He was trying
Speaker 5: to keep me off the streets, you know.
Speaker 3: And uh so one of the things if you get, if
Speaker 3: you get a kid interested in reloading and guns, you
Speaker 3: won't have enough money for drugs.
Speaker 5: And boy and boy was I into guns. I mean
Speaker 5: every second I was dreaming, thinking, reading, wanting guns and
Speaker 5: so that's how I got star arted. And when Line
Speaker 5: bas kept asking me, Tim, would you please make factory
Speaker 5: Ammo because he was sending customers to me to handload
Speaker 5: five hundred line bay Ammo and later four seventy five
Speaker 5: line Ammo, but he couldn't sell guns because.
Speaker 6: There was no commercial amp.
Speaker 4: Oh sure.
Speaker 5: I contacted Starline eventually and got them to make quantities,
Speaker 5: and it took a lot of money up front because
Speaker 5: they wouldn't make small quantities of a new brass, and
Speaker 5: in large quantities got factory brass. And once that happened,
Speaker 5: I was on the run, and so I decided, well,
Speaker 5: I'd better make some forty five colt plus P and
Speaker 5: some good forty four magammo while I'm at it, and
Speaker 5: some forty five seventy And the next thing you know,
Speaker 5: I was making a solid living producing AMMO like nobody
Speaker 5: else really knew how.
Speaker 6: To produce at that time.
Speaker 5: You know, I've been copied a jillion times by now.
Speaker 4: But your your line of AMMO is different.
Speaker 3: When people go to your website Buffalo board dot com,
Speaker 3: they're gonna look at ammo and go, well, that's I've
Speaker 3: not seen that before.
Speaker 4: That's interesting.
Speaker 3: It's like, okay, three fifty seven magnum controlled fracture, standard pressure,
Speaker 3: nine milimeter control. It's like, and you got the high
Speaker 3: velocity stuff. You've got, you know, solid handgun AMMO house,
Speaker 3: solid bullets for deep penetration.
Speaker 4: You got a lot of rifle ammo. It goes on
Speaker 4: and on. I mean, you really have an extensive line of ammo.
Speaker 6: Now, yeah, it took a lot of years to get there.
Speaker 5: If you were to go in my gun vault, you
Speaker 5: would see five six hundred guns. They've all been used, fired,
Speaker 5: they're all test guns.
Speaker 6: And you know, so developing ammunition is my thing. And
Speaker 6: you know.
Speaker 5: I've very secretly developed a few loads for government agencies.
Speaker 5: Stuff you know that was highly specialized that they wanted
Speaker 5: for certain applications.
Speaker 4: Certain units to go places and do things.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you know, some of some of those
Speaker 5: needs when you're doing specialized stuff or quite quite unique.
Speaker 5: And so anyway, I've addressed some of those things. But
Speaker 5: designing AMMO is my favorite thing. Running a business is
Speaker 5: my least favorite thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I understand, all right, So I gotta tell you.
Speaker 3: I know that you were a fan of Melvin Forbes.
Speaker 3: I got one of his rifles that came in, but
Speaker 3: it used and ordered it and it was three thirty
Speaker 3: eight out six. I thought, well, that'd be fun. I've
Speaker 3: never had one of those. But then it came in
Speaker 3: and I went back to the range and formed AMMO,
Speaker 3: formed the case. I went out and shot it, pulled
Speaker 3: the first case out and said that doesn't look right,
Speaker 3: and it turned out it was three thirty eight out six,
Speaker 3: actually improved. But nobody stamped the barrel, and I didn't
Speaker 3: know it. I mean, and it's fine now that I
Speaker 3: know it, and I've got the dies. But that's an interesting.
Speaker 6: Round, very useful.
Speaker 5: I mean, slightly less recoiling than the three thirty eight
Speaker 5: win mag But if you design the AMMO right, it's
Speaker 5: still a four hundred yard cartridge, especially the actually improved version.
Speaker 5: You know it's going to hold seven grains more powder
Speaker 5: than the standard three thirty eight off six. And by
Speaker 5: saying seven grains is did I hit the number right?
Speaker 5: I mean you're loading.
Speaker 7: No.
Speaker 3: I think that's about right. And yeah, I plan to
Speaker 3: take it on my al cut next week, our next month.
Speaker 4: Rather.
Speaker 6: If you ever want to sell that rifle, call me.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, both of us are fans of Melvin's rifle. So yeah,
Speaker 3: I think I'll keep this one, thank you very much.
Speaker 5: Well, but that's just an interesting cartridge I carry when
Speaker 5: we go l cutting around here. We've were getting more
Speaker 5: and more grizzlies, and so when I take my friends
Speaker 5: out hunting and they kill an elk and we quarter
Speaker 5: and leave it out overnight, cool, we come back the
Speaker 5: next day with horses, often we'll have a grizzly bear
Speaker 5: on the carcass. Oh and the rifle I carry when
Speaker 5: I go to retrieve meat is a three thirty eight
Speaker 5: OFF six.
Speaker 4: Really that's interesting.
Speaker 5: Well, it holds five rounds. Mine head is very short,
Speaker 5: it's got a nineteen inch barrel. It comes out of
Speaker 5: a saddle scabbard really fast. And it's not for long
Speaker 5: range hunting or anything else. It's for digging my butt
Speaker 5: out of trouble at five.
Speaker 6: Feet and you know when you've done this your whole life,
Speaker 6: like I have.
Speaker 5: And I'm not afraid of bears, So if I see
Speaker 5: a bear on a carcass, I'm going to go get
Speaker 5: my carcass. And so that three thirty eight OT six
Speaker 5: has been very useful. I've shot a number of bear
Speaker 5: with it, and it's a wonderful cartridge. It's for North America.
Speaker 5: It might be the most balance a big game hunting cartridge.
Speaker 5: It's a little shy on the long range stuff, but okay,
Speaker 5: I can still shoot four hundred yards with it, so
Speaker 5: it's really not shy on the range.
Speaker 4: All right, So what's the next for buffalo board? For
Speaker 4: Tim Sandles?
Speaker 5: Right now, I'm designing a line of believe it or.
Speaker 6: Not, twenty two Hornet Ammo.
Speaker 5: And you know, the hornet is a neat cartridge because
Speaker 5: it's right in the middle velocity Ballistically speaking, it's right
Speaker 5: in the middle between a twenty two magnum and a
Speaker 5: two to twenty three.
Speaker 6: It's easy on the.
Speaker 5: Ears, no recoil, and you know you can kill coyotes
Speaker 5: with it out to two two hundred or so.
Speaker 3: Well, look, I appreciate I want to send people to
Speaker 3: your website. They got to take a look at it,
Speaker 3: the handgun, ammo, Riflammeau, all of it. But also if
Speaker 3: they start looking at your videos, I know you're going
Speaker 3: to expand your social media reach here you're in the
Speaker 3: middle of doing that. I think they will enjoy hearing
Speaker 3: more about your thoughts on things and your thoughts are
Speaker 3: based on experience and rather than looking at a ballistic calculator.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they're actually based on both, because I do
Speaker 5: look at the ballistic calculators, but I go out and
Speaker 5: actually kill stuff, lots of stuff, and whatever. The doesn't
Speaker 5: at that point, it doesn't matter what the charts say,
Speaker 5: doesn't matter what people on the internet say.
Speaker 6: And you kill enough stuff, you learn a lot.
Speaker 4: Tim, Thank you, it's always a pleasure.
Speaker 6: Tom.
Speaker 5: Thanks, and please get over here and let's do lunch together.
Speaker 5: You offered years ago to fly over and sit down
Speaker 5: and just talk. And you're easy to talk to, your
Speaker 5: very knowledgeable. And so when you're ready to get to Salmon,
Speaker 5: would you give me a call and we'll set an
Speaker 5: afternoon aside and just talk.
Speaker 4: Sounds good. We might even pull a trigger.
Speaker 6: Guns scare me off.
Speaker 3: Well, we'll see if we can help you get over that.
Speaker 3: All right, don't go far gun talk will be right back.
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Speaker 2: Ruger didn't just update the ar, they rebuilt it from
Speaker 2: the ground up. The Harrier is the modern sporting rifle
Speaker 2: reimagined for the serious shooter. Millspeck Ford's seventy seventy five
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Speaker 2: gas key, amlockhandguard, with full length accessory rail, access threaded barrel,
Speaker 2: ready for whatever.
Speaker 4: You add to it.
Speaker 2: This isn't an iteration, It's an evolution decades of Ruger
Speaker 2: engineering discipline poured into the platform.
Speaker 6: You love the Ruger Harrier.
Speaker 3: Well, this is an interesting twist. In Maryland, Maryland, Montgomery
Speaker 3: County that is has a law prevents people from carrying
Speaker 3: in churches around churches and so they're being sued, and
Speaker 3: I think it's about time they're being sued by a
Speaker 3: rabbi and other Jews saying that you're keeping us from
Speaker 3: me able to carry in the synagogue. It's always been
Speaker 3: a puzzle to me why more Jews don't carry guns
Speaker 3: for protection. They are targeted by anti Semites historically, for
Speaker 3: thousands of years, have been murdered. Look at the Holocaust.
Speaker 3: What goes on now? And I'm actually encouraged to see
Speaker 3: them say, hey, we're going to carry guns for our
Speaker 3: own protection. We're going to protect our people at our
Speaker 3: synagogue and suing the state or in this case, the
Speaker 3: county for preventing them from doing that. Good on you guys.
Speaker 3: Everybody needs to understand every church should have security teams,
Speaker 3: but also anybody should be able to carry in any
Speaker 3: church as well as everywhere else. That's just a good thing.
Speaker 3: All right, We're gonna kick this thing open. If you
Speaker 3: want to join us, we're open lines now eight six
Speaker 3: six Talk gun or Tom talk gun. Looking for range
Speaker 3: reports and also any thoughts you have now on the
Speaker 3: Twin Falls, Idaho shooting and the guy using a pistol
Speaker 3: to take on a guy.
Speaker 4: With a rifle. So yeah, I get to do range
Speaker 4: reports now and then. I've been to the range.
Speaker 3: I had some fun, shot some rifles, shot some handguns,
Speaker 3: shot a steel challenge match. Now I often say I'm
Speaker 3: not a competitive shooter. I'm not, but I like to
Speaker 3: go out. I mean, if you're a competitive shooter, you
Speaker 3: would look at what I did say that's everything I
Speaker 3: did was wrong.
Speaker 4: Showed up with a brand new gun. It was not
Speaker 4: broken in.
Speaker 3: Did have some malfunctions while I'm shooting it, but that
Speaker 3: was kind of the point. I wanted to see how
Speaker 3: it would do. I wasn't trying to win or beaut anybody.
Speaker 3: I'm just it's a place to go to shoot, have
Speaker 3: some fun with some friends. Shot the nineteen eleven nine
Speaker 3: milimeter the Cult Custom Carry Limited nice pistol. Shoot really well.
Speaker 3: And yeah, the first one hundred rounds I had like
Speaker 3: probably four. It was looped up, but I had about
Speaker 3: four failures to go back into battery or had one
Speaker 3: stovepipe failure. After that, ran just fine, which is not unusual.
Speaker 3: You got to break them in. But had fun. It
Speaker 3: has a really good trigger, so I mean all at all,
Speaker 3: I liked the gun. There was a chance to try
Speaker 3: it out. I came in third, which sounds more impressive
Speaker 3: than it is since there were only five of us
Speaker 3: sho dead center in the middle. Oh well, there you go.
Speaker 3: But it was a fun time, fun mourning out, just
Speaker 3: shooting guns. Our number here is eighty six six Talk Gun,
Speaker 3: Give me a holler. Joe called in out of Welmington,
Speaker 3: New Jersey. Hello, Joe, you're on gun Talk.
Speaker 4: What's up, Tom?
Speaker 10: I got a range report for you about a shooting
Speaker 10: drill that my buddies and I came up with. One's
Speaker 10: active duty law enforcement, the others recently retired, and they
Speaker 10: both says, the most realistic thing you can do in
Speaker 10: an indoor, indoor range. And you know, we all got
Speaker 10: tired of, you know, lining up the shot, you know,
Speaker 10: taking five seconds and naming it the little red bullseye.
Speaker 10: That's about as far away from real life as you
Speaker 10: can get. So there's some targets you can get. They
Speaker 10: look like they're not an actual silhouette, but they're like
Speaker 10: two big ovals. One's a lower body area. It's got
Speaker 10: a green area about the size of a dinner plate.
Speaker 10: And the top, the top OVAL's got a little like
Speaker 10: saucer shaped a saucer size represent the head. And here's
Speaker 10: the drill. You load two bags five rounds each. You
Speaker 10: draw you, if I were as quickly as possible two handed,
Speaker 10: to start into the lower kill zone, drop your mag,
Speaker 10: reload next five shots into the head, and if you
Speaker 10: do that successfully two hands, you repeat with one hand. Now,
Speaker 10: once you get proficient at doing that, we initially would
Speaker 10: start it. We started three at three yards, and once
Speaker 10: we did we would push out the five and once
Speaker 10: we got proficient, we pushed out to seven, then to ten.
Speaker 10: I'm to the point now at fifteen yards I can
Speaker 10: draw put not only all five shots in the lower
Speaker 10: and upper target area two handed, I can do it
Speaker 10: one handed. And both my law enforce and buddies say
Speaker 10: they never had anything like that when they were, you know,
Speaker 10: in law enforcement training, and they they had. And the
Speaker 10: active duty guy says, I love it. I'm going to
Speaker 10: tell my buddies about it.
Speaker 3: So, okay, we know where you are now, but where
Speaker 3: were you with your shooting when you started working this drill?
Speaker 3: Could you do that right off the bat or did
Speaker 3: you have to work your way into it?
Speaker 10: Well, initially I could get no trouble, you know a
Speaker 10: yards getting two handed. I had a little trouble one
Speaker 10: handed getting five shots single strong hand only into the head.
Speaker 10: But it took me. It took me two or three
Speaker 10: times to get that, and then pushed out to five
Speaker 10: with a similar you know, similar thing, you know, and
Speaker 10: you know it started to put only four out of
Speaker 10: five in the head. And once I was able to
Speaker 10: get five out of five in the head strong hand only,
Speaker 10: then we pushed it out to seven. And over the
Speaker 10: course of I'm going to say eight weeks, Tom, that's
Speaker 10: when I finally get out to fifteen yards. And this
Speaker 10: is rapid fire, Tom, this is bang bang, bang, bang bang.
Speaker 10: You know you're not taking it. You're not lining up.
Speaker 10: It's you know, combat situation. You're squeezing the shots off
Speaker 10: as quick as you can get them off.
Speaker 3: What was what did you work on to get the improvement?
Speaker 3: If you're not making all your shots and then you
Speaker 3: started making your shots, what did you I'm assuming it's mintal.
Speaker 3: You got to work on your thought process? What did
Speaker 3: you have to do?
Speaker 10: Squeeze trigger, squeeze.
Speaker 4: Always a trigger. Edit, it's always the trigger.
Speaker 10: Trigger, always the trigger. I was jerking, you know, I
Speaker 10: was trying to rush and I was jerking the trigger,
Speaker 10: and I was pulling shots off high and right, and
Speaker 10: you know, so it's just I had to calm myself down. Okay,
Speaker 10: it's rapid fire, but rapid fire doesn't do any good
Speaker 10: if you're going to miss the target. So you know,
Speaker 10: put an extra quarter of a second between shots, and
Speaker 10: squeeze the trigger, don't jerk the trigger, and all of
Speaker 10: this a similar improvement, Tom, you know, you know, we've
Speaker 10: all had a similar in terms of progression over eight
Speaker 10: weeks of doing this.
Speaker 4: You know what I like about it?
Speaker 3: And yes, okay, the specifics of the drill you're doing
Speaker 3: are very good. But more than that, you said, okay,
Speaker 3: let's have an organized program of improvement of working on stuff.
Speaker 3: We're going to have a measurable target, measurable results, and
Speaker 3: then a goal to get to make this better.
Speaker 4: And you just start working on I think more than anything.
Speaker 3: Once you start doing that, you go, okay, I'm not
Speaker 3: doing it as well as I would like. I need
Speaker 3: to work on something. And in your case practice, in
Speaker 3: all of our cases, it's trigger. Let me let me
Speaker 3: give you one another tip to put into your head. Okay,
Speaker 3: before you start the drill, here's what I do because
Speaker 3: I'm always trying to think the sites you are going
Speaker 3: to be fine. It's all about the trigger. And in
Speaker 3: my head what I say is press, press, press press,
Speaker 3: and when I'm gonna come up, I'm going to go
Speaker 3: press press, press press, And it's that press as opposed
Speaker 3: to pool, jerk, yank, whatever it is. For me, the
Speaker 3: word press really works at trying to move the trigger
Speaker 3: straight back. You might just try before you start the drill,
Speaker 3: just in your head, go press, press, press press, See
Speaker 3: what that.
Speaker 4: Does for you.
Speaker 10: I tell him, I think that's great advice and I
Speaker 10: will try that. One other thing I want to add, though,
Speaker 10: By starting at three yards, everybody has some success. Nothing
Speaker 10: turns people off starting a drill and failing, you know.
Speaker 5: Ye.
Speaker 10: By starting at three yards, everybody has success and then okay, finally,
Speaker 10: then as you get profession, you can then okay. Then
Speaker 10: you push it to five and most people are still
Speaker 10: getting you know, eighty ninety percent of their shots, but
Speaker 10: we don't move it out to seven until you get
Speaker 10: one hundred percent of your shots. So, but it's not
Speaker 10: like you're starting and failing. Everybody's starting and succeeding initially,
Speaker 10: which encourages them to keep getting better and better.
Speaker 3: And it makes it makes you come back, because if
Speaker 3: you embarrass yourself, you're not going to come back.
Speaker 4: Great stuff. I appreciate it, Joe.
Speaker 3: I'm going to move on to grab Chris out of
Speaker 3: California line too.
Speaker 4: Hey Chris, you're on the air.
Speaker 6: Here, go for it, all right, Tom?
Speaker 11: Yeah, thanks. I'm just making a follow up call to
Speaker 11: say I'm the person that called about the Springfield Armory
Speaker 11: echelan and the compensated versus non compensated there. Oh right,
Speaker 11: I believe that you had somebody in the first fifteen
Speaker 11: to thirty minutes of the show today talk about that
Speaker 11: and basically saying that the gases and stuff it could
Speaker 11: create blowback and fragmentation from the jack if you have
Speaker 11: a close you know, like body to body shot. I
Speaker 11: believe right, right, Yeah, So, I uh, you know, I
Speaker 11: actually ran that past the guy at the gun store too,
Speaker 11: and he kind of showed me the same thing. He
Speaker 11: showed me a technique about if that happens. But overall,
Speaker 11: it sounded like the non compensated barrel would probably be
Speaker 11: the better choice, you know, in a self defense carry
Speaker 11: conceal type of situation. So I just wanted to confirm
Speaker 11: that and again say thanks for the input and the
Speaker 11: knowledge that you that you guys, you know the show
Speaker 11: spreads out well.
Speaker 4: No, I appreciate the follow up. I'm with you there.
Speaker 3: I think non compensated, non comp barrel and the recoor
Speaker 3: reduction is important when you're shooting targets and you're trying
Speaker 3: for those absolute minimum time splits between shots. But for
Speaker 3: a self deferent situation, carving you know, a tenth of
Speaker 3: a second or hundreds of a second, I don't think
Speaker 3: is as important as making sure you don't frag yourself.
Speaker 3: When you've got to shoot from retention positions. You've got
Speaker 3: that gun tucked into your side, into your pectoral muscles.
Speaker 3: If you get a bit of a shaved lid or
Speaker 3: copper jacket coming out of a comp and it comes
Speaker 3: up and hitching the face or in the eye, I
Speaker 3: don't think it's worth that risk to try to shave
Speaker 3: just a tiny little fraction of time off with the
Speaker 3: comp back barrel.
Speaker 11: Yeah, you know, that's that sounds good to me. He
Speaker 11: did tell me a technique of you know, if you
Speaker 11: turn to you turn it ninety degrees, that would it's
Speaker 11: still going to deflect that it's not going to go
Speaker 11: into your face, but still then you got to think
Speaker 11: of that extra step. And if you're in that stressful situation,
Speaker 11: you know, that's just one more thing to consider.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it's good and you know, and it's not
Speaker 3: a bad idea to think about tilting that gun out
Speaker 3: when you're in retention position, tilted out twenty degrees to
Speaker 3: forty five degrees away from your body, primarily to keep
Speaker 3: the slide for getting hung up on clothing. So you
Speaker 3: got that slide that's reciprocating back and forth. Tilt out
Speaker 3: a little bit and you've indexed. You've got that gun
Speaker 3: pressed into your side because you're shoot there's something that
Speaker 3: is literally one to two feet away and you want
Speaker 3: to make sure it keep it running. So rotating it
Speaker 3: out and index that way will work as well. A
Speaker 3: good call, sir. I appreciate it. Thank you for following up, Chris.
Speaker 3: It's look, cock barrels really do reduce motile rise and
Speaker 3: they make guns more pleasant to shoot, and that's all true,
Speaker 3: and it helps at the range and it helps in
Speaker 3: competition for a self defense gun. I think it's less important,
Speaker 3: not saying it's not important. I think you just have
Speaker 3: to measure the trade offs. As we have said before,
Speaker 3: everything is a trade off. Everything is a compromise. I mean,
Speaker 3: if you wanted the most powerful thing to shoot, you know,
Speaker 3: a bad guy with you, to carry twelve gates with
Speaker 3: you all the time, Well we can't do that.
Speaker 4: It's just not practical.
Speaker 3: So you go all the way down and say, well,
Speaker 3: what would be the most with a little bit of
Speaker 3: pocket gun that's in a twenty two would be the
Speaker 3: most comfortable, But that doesn't have the stopping power that
Speaker 3: we're looking for. So somewhere between a twelve gage with
Speaker 3: an extended magazine and a North American Arms Me revolver
Speaker 3: in twenty two short is something you can find that
Speaker 3: works for you, and to put more qualifiers on it,
Speaker 3: because it's always a whole stack of qualifiers. It's what
Speaker 3: works for you in that situation, in the clothing that
Speaker 3: you're wearing, the places that you go. Do you need
Speaker 3: real deep concealment for whatever reason, or can you do?
Speaker 3: Like where I live, I could open carry, but I don't,
Speaker 3: but I kind of have a loose conceal carry, just
Speaker 3: a shirt pulled out over a gun or a vest
Speaker 3: that I wear a lot of times, and is it
Speaker 3: going to print? Might probably not. I try not to,
Speaker 3: but it's possible.
Speaker 4: That it does.
Speaker 3: Because it doesn't matter where I live. It's very likely
Speaker 3: that it will be I'll be finding somebody open carrying,
Speaker 3: but I'm at a restaurant or in the hardware store.
Speaker 3: That happens all the time, different places, different rules. Because
Speaker 3: I can carry that way, I can carry a larger gun.
Speaker 3: I can carry with an outside the waistband holster. That's
Speaker 3: for me a lot more comfortable than inside the waistband.
Speaker 3: I don't carry appendix.
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 3: And yeah, people go, well, you know you're not carrying appendix,
Speaker 3: that you're not carrying a red dot and you just
Speaker 3: got to get with times. You know, I don't. Actually,
Speaker 3: I really don't. I can carry the way I carry,
Speaker 3: and I am. I hope fast enough we'll find out.
Speaker 3: I hope I never find out. Actually, And I don't
Speaker 3: want guns pointed at my junk and my femeral artery.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I know all the young guys are going, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's you'rified get over yourself. I'm not gonna ask you
Speaker 3: to do what I do any more than you should
Speaker 3: ask me or require me to do what you do,
Speaker 3: find something that.
Speaker 4: Works for you. Is your red dock faster?
Speaker 6: Probably?
Speaker 3: Is it more accurate? Probably? Does it make a difference
Speaker 3: in self defense situation? Almost certainly?
Speaker 6: Not.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, it just doesn't. Is my iron sight going
Speaker 3: to have a battery go dead on it? Not a
Speaker 3: chance in the world. Or the electronic is gonna go
Speaker 3: dead on it when I need it the most? Not
Speaker 3: gonna not gonna happen. It is possible that your iron
Speaker 3: sight would fall off your gun. Yeah, that's possible. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's highly unlikely, but I guess anything's possible. Compromises, trade offs,
Speaker 3: we make our choices. If you like a red dot,
Speaker 3: carry a red dot. If you like appendix, carry go
Speaker 3: with it. That's all well and good. You know why,
Speaker 3: because it doesn't affect me in the slightest. I got
Speaker 3: somebody online right right now saying on over next, Well,
Speaker 3: you shouldn't call them silencers. They're suppressors. You should know
Speaker 3: better than that. No, actually they're both. They're suppressors and
Speaker 3: they're silencers. When hire a Maximum vnded them, they call
Speaker 3: them silencers. The patent calls them silencers. It's either one
Speaker 3: or it's both. And I think we can kind of
Speaker 3: get over the whole. You have to do it the
Speaker 3: way I do, or you're wrong. There is a tendency
Speaker 3: to want to make sure that we're right and other
Speaker 3: people are wrong. I'm not sure that's entirely healthy, Jim.
Speaker 3: More time we got left here, Well, let's do that.
Speaker 3: Let's grab Nicole and put her in here. Nicole called
Speaker 3: in out of Boston, Massachusetts to call thank you for
Speaker 3: your patients. You out the floor.
Speaker 12: So, uh does a follow up call to a call
Speaker 12: a lot?
Speaker 6: I don't know.
Speaker 12: Four months ago or so, I had called because I'm
Speaker 12: I'm trans and I had wondered or I had been
Speaker 12: worried about, you know, how I'd be received in the
Speaker 12: community and getting into competitions. And so I have a
Speaker 12: couple of updates. Number one, I competed in my first
Speaker 12: competition like two weeks ago. I think it was today
Speaker 12: as a matter of fact, I participated in a GSSF competition.
Speaker 12: So and it was great. Nobody cared. I went in
Speaker 12: shot shot pretty well. I think I got a four
Speaker 12: to sixty one out of five hundred, and it was fine.
Speaker 12: Nobody nobody got it an eyelash, and it was great.
Speaker 12: I worried completely needlessly about that. So and number two
Speaker 12: was at my club. Everybody's been great. And I had
Speaker 12: befriended someone who is in a neighboring club, and it's
Speaker 12: a woman who runs a ladies group, and she had
Speaker 12: invited me to come to shoot at their club, and
Speaker 12: I shot with them, and I hooked her up with
Speaker 12: the president of my club to have like a field trip.
Speaker 12: So they came out and all the ladies from our
Speaker 12: club came and it was nice. We all had a
Speaker 12: great time. And after that I approached to my club president.
Speaker 12: It was like, this is something this club needs. You know,
Speaker 12: the ladies are underrepresented every time I go here. You know,
Speaker 12: I go a couple of times a week, and it's
Speaker 12: it's always the same basis.
Speaker 6: And.
Speaker 3: I'm right, I guess by time. Give me a therefore,
Speaker 3: wrap up as good please, it's a long.
Speaker 10: Start to it.
Speaker 12: He says, that's a great idea. Let's do it. Why
Speaker 12: don't you run it? So now I'm running the ladies
Speaker 12: group at our club.
Speaker 3: All right, there you go, all right, appreciate it. Thanks
Speaker 3: for the call, Billy. We'll get you and we'll come
Speaker 3: back out of this Breakdoug go anywhere, and we got
Speaker 3: room for you. If you'd like to join us, give
Speaker 3: me called eight six six Talk Done or Tom Talk
Speaker 3: Gun Still pondering on the choice. Are good guy with
Speaker 3: a gun used a FN five point seven with a
Speaker 3: suppressure to get this bad guy to keep through? Stop
Speaker 3: shooting people? Killing people? Interesting juries, not what most people
Speaker 3: are carrying.
Speaker 4: All right, how's the time for you to call in
Speaker 4: to be on the after show? We can knock things
Speaker 4: around a little bit more. We have a little bit
Speaker 4: more time.
Speaker 3: We don't have the constrictions of heartbreaks, commercial breaks. We've
Speaker 3: got to hit Hey, look, that's just broadcast TV radio
Speaker 3: in this case, just the way it is. By the way,
Speaker 3: if you haven't looked at some of our videos, by
Speaker 3: all means, check out YouTube. But we are putting more
Speaker 3: and more videos of our videos on Facebook, the gun
Speaker 3: Talk Facebook page, and we're getting I was going to
Speaker 3: say thousands of yous, that's not true.
Speaker 4: We're getting million.
Speaker 3: Actually, we're getting hundreds of millions of views on Facebook
Speaker 3: on our gun videos. And some of them are a
Speaker 3: little bit longer, some of them are very short. We're
Speaker 3: talking ten seconds at a time. You never know what's
Speaker 3: going to be there, but yeah, check out our Facebook
Speaker 3: page for gun Talk and then of course I'm over
Speaker 3: on x a fair amount of time. You can go
Speaker 3: follow me. I'm at gun talk is how I am.
Speaker 3: You know, that's my label or handle or whatever you
Speaker 3: call it. Over on X formerly Twitter. It's a fun
Speaker 3: place for conversations and also you get a lot of
Speaker 3: Second Amendment news there. I try to share that as
Speaker 3: much as I can. Right now, we've got some conversations
Speaker 3: going on about this guy in Twin Falls, Idaho who
Speaker 3: used his suppressed silence whichever you prefer, pistol to shoot
Speaker 3: back at a guy who's murdering people with than they are.
Speaker 3: What we're finding out is that the fella in Twin Falls,
Speaker 3: his name was Jordan's Salinas, is a serious gun person,
Speaker 3: serious self defense protector kind of guy, different attitude from
Speaker 3: most people. Takes it, you know, beyond serious. It's a
Speaker 3: way of life for him, and you know that may
Speaker 3: not be for you, but it also is one of
Speaker 3: those reminders that if you're gonna think of yourself as
Speaker 3: a sheep dog, if you're gonna think of yourself as
Speaker 3: a protector, thinking about it, imagining yourself as that actually
Speaker 3: doesn't do you a lot of good. I mean not
Speaker 3: that it does you no good at all. It does
Speaker 3: kind of prepare you mentally, but you also have to
Speaker 3: do some other things. You gotta choose a good gun
Speaker 3: sighting system, holster rig you gotta go get some training.
Speaker 3: Training is not practice. Once again, training is not practice
Speaker 3: and practice is not training. The two are not the
Speaker 3: same thing. Training involves an instructor. If there's no instructor there,
Speaker 3: it's not training, which means you got to go take
Speaker 3: a class or a bunch of classes. Got it like
Speaker 3: a commitment, or you can just say, you know, I'm
Speaker 3: just gonna let it happen. Whatever happens, I'll take my chances.
Speaker 3: I don't like that, and for I'm not a lazy,
Speaker 3: fair kind of guy. I'm going to do what I
Speaker 3: can to prepare understanding. Look, I get it, understanding that
Speaker 3: may not be enough, and maybe that nothing's enough. You
Speaker 3: get a black Swan event, somebody walks up behind you
Speaker 3: in the street and hit you in the back of
Speaker 3: the head with a baseball bat. There's nothing you could do,
Speaker 3: and that's the way it goes. But there's no preparation
Speaker 3: that can take care of that. Anyway, So why worry
Speaker 3: about it? But there are things you can prepare for,
Speaker 3: things that will help you in situations where you can
Speaker 3: help somebody. Else where you can save somebody. You see
Speaker 3: somebody being abducted, you see somebody being beaten, maybe you
Speaker 3: go get involved. That's a personal decision you gotta make.
Speaker 3: But if somebody's coming after you and you your loved ones,
Speaker 3: someone's gone nuts in a road rage incident, do you
Speaker 3: have what you need both in the way of physical
Speaker 3: ability and equipment and the middle makeup and the preparation
Speaker 3: and the will to do what needs to be done.
Speaker 3: And when you need that action, you need it right now,
Speaker 3: no hesitation. You may call let me know how you
Speaker 3: prepare for that. Our numbers eight sixty six talk gun.
Speaker 3: In the meantime, go out and do it a little shooting,
Speaker 3: Take somebody with you to the range. Think about being
Speaker 3: prepared all the time, and every time you walk out
Speaker 3: of your house. You need to have that gun with
Speaker 3: you every time, Yes, every time, because evil shows.
Speaker 4: Up when you least expected. Just ask those folks in
Speaker 4: Idaho