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Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK, every week, 44 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:37.039 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 45 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:41.080 killers in true crime history True Murder with your host 46 00:02:41.479 --> 00:02:44.000 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 47 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:58.360 Good evening. Where is Brandon Simms? The four year old 48 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:02.240 had not been since scenes since July third, nineteen ninety two, 49 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:05.159 when he attended a birthday party with his twenty year 50 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:10.680 old mother, Michelle Jones. Jones was employed, confident, talented, smart, assertive, 51 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:15.719 and involved in many community activities in Indianapolis, Indiana. In contrast, 52 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:19.199 when he was last seen, Brandon Simms, an only child, 53 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:22.759 was a serious, quiet, thin boy, rarely maintained eye contact 54 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:26.000 with his mother. After that night, he was never seen again. 55 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:29.879 His body has never been found. For years, Jones lied 56 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:32.080 to her friends about Brandon, telling some that he was 57 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:34.360 living with his father, and others he was staying with 58 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:38.560 his grandmother in another state. When Brandon's father, who had 59 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:41.879 been in jail, came looking for Brandon, Michele's shocked friends 60 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:46.360 confronted her, she confessed that Brandon was dead. She repeated 61 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:49.319 her story of how Brandon died to a detective after 62 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:53.120 she admitted herself to the local psych unit. Days later, 63 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.599 she checked out of the unit and refused to reveal 64 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:59.400 where she had hidden Brandon's body. She was sure she 65 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:02.680 had gotten no way with murder and she would have 66 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:06.080 accept The detective didn't believe her story. He enlisted the 67 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:09.639 help of a novice prosecutor because no experienced prosecutor would 68 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:13.639 take the case. In Indiana, no one had ever been 69 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:17.680 convicted of murder without a body. That prosecutor has written 70 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:20.079 a book that reads like a mystery novel instead of 71 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:24.399 the real murder prosecution. Truth is stranger than fiction, where 72 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:27.920 Santa Ria curses, the law and politics are only a 73 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:31.480 few of the obstacles to justice. The book that we're 74 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:35.879 featuring this evening is Inconvenience Gone, The Short Tragic Life 75 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:39.360 of Brandon Simms, with my special guests, journalist and author 76 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:43.639 and attorney Diane marger Moore. Welcome to the program, and 77 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:45.439 thank you very much for a green to this's interview. 78 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:49.439 Diane marger Moore, thank you. 79 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:52.199 For having me. I really appreciate the opportunity. 80 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.480 Thank you very much. It's a fascinating case, and your 81 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:02.240 bird's eye perspective here as prosecutor makes this even more fascinating. 82 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:05.639 Let's get right to a little bit about your legal 83 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:11.519 background and how you came to be involved in this 84 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:13.720 case and want to write about it, but first tell 85 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:16.959 us how you became first involved in this case and 86 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:21.759 your legal background, please, I. 87 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:26.920 Had thank you. I graduated from the University of Georgia 88 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:29.879 law school and spent a number of years as a 89 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:34.560 criminal defense lawyer. And when I married my husband, he 90 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:37.560 was from Indiana, and so I moved to that state, 91 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:42.639 and not knowing anyone, I was fortunate to be hired 92 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:46.839 as a deputy Attorney General, where I worked for several years, 93 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:49.519 and then I was able to get back and be 94 00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:53.759 hired by the Marin County Prosecutor's office. Although I'd already 95 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:58.040 been a lawyer for nearly fifteen years, I'd never prosecuted 96 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:03.360 the case, and so I was given the opportunity primarily 97 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:08.439 as the chief Arson prosecutor. But after handling a couple 98 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:13.319 arson murder cases, my door seemed to be open to 99 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:18.639 other types of cases. And that's how I ended up 100 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:22.199 with this case. When a detective just knocked on my 101 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:25.680 door and began to talk to me about the case. 102 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:30.560 At the time, I'd been a prosecutor for about six months. 103 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:34.000 Now. We talked about in the introduction, we introduced the 104 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:38.759 idea that you said that no prosecutor would really want 105 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:40.839 to look at this, So explain a little bit about 106 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:44.360 how you come to be the prosecutor. And based on 107 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:48.879 sort of the problem that you have with that, what 108 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:52.839 does Sergeant Michael Krook tell you that prompts you to 109 00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:54.959 definitely want to be involved with this? 110 00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:01.360 Well, I think prosecutors, like other people, like to prosecute 111 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:05.079 cases that they're not only convinced of personally, but that 112 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:09.680 they believe they can win. And in this case, because 113 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:21.920 because there was no body in Indiana, there's a requirement 114 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:26.399 that one proved the body of the crime, and normally 115 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:29.439 in a murder case, it's the body that establishes that. 116 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:33.000 It's called the corpus delecti. So in this case, with 117 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:37.560 no body having been found, it was going to be 118 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:42.720 a very difficult case to prosecute. But Mike Krook, who 119 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:45.439 at the time was a sergeant in a homicide unit 120 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:51.360 and a very respected detective, just felt certain that this 121 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:55.079 mother had done something so horrible that she needed to 122 00:07:55.079 --> 00:08:00.639 be prosecuted. And after going to the more experienced homicide executers, 123 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:04.759 who had wonderful records because they only took cases that 124 00:08:04.839 --> 00:08:08.439 were likely to succeed in. Having knocked on a number 125 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:12.560 of doors, he came to my door to ask whether 126 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:15.879 I would at least assist him in trying to get 127 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:20.240 the case filed in some form. 128 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:23.600 Yes, you say that you were pretty well convinced that 129 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:26.000 he was going to do this regardless, and so he 130 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:28.720 was very determined. And that's one thing I think that 131 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:32.519 really caught your attention. Now, what is the story that 132 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:36.000 he relates to you that was related to him at 133 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:40.519 this midtown which is I guess a unit at the 134 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:43.320 mental hospital. At the mental hospital. 135 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:49.240 Yes, Mike Crook was the duty officer, the sergeant in 136 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:54.639 the homicide unit when a uniformed officer explained to him 137 00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:58.360 that they'd received a call from Wishard, which is the 138 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:03.240 mental health unit of the county hospital, that a woman 139 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:07.320 had admitted that her son had died while in her care. 140 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:12.600 The officer hadn't gotten very specific with it about it, 141 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:15.840 but it was enough for Mike Krook to return to 142 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:20.039 the hospital and speak to the admissions clerk. The admissions 143 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:25.399 clerk explained to him that Michelle Jones, a young woman, 144 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:31.720 had come in allegedly having nervous problems because she had 145 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:37.120 finally disclosed to friends that her son, Brandon Simms, who 146 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:40.879 had been four years old, had died when she left 147 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:44.039 him alone for a period of about a week in 148 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:50.279 their apartment two years earlier. Krook tried to speak to 149 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:53.480 Michelle Jones at that point, but was told that she 150 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:58.879 had been seriously sedated and so he would have to 151 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:03.639 come back. By the time that I spoke to Sergeant Krook, 152 00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:08.480 he had gone back and interviewed Michelle Jones and she 153 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:13.960 had related a similar story to him. 154 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:19.120 Now, with that information, with that revelation to you, how 155 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:23.639 did you proceed and how did the further contact with 156 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:28.080 Michelle proceed with Sergeant Krook and yourself. 157 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:35.279 Well, Obviously, the way that most prosecutions determine whether or 158 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:40.600 not a death is accidental, a voluntary manslaughter, or a 159 00:10:40.679 --> 00:10:44.000 murder is to examine the body for evidence of how 160 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:48.600 the death occurred. Michelle Jones is a brilliant woman, and 161 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:54.240 she had told Sergeant Krook that she would show him 162 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:57.200 where the body was. And obviously he was very anxious 163 00:10:57.240 --> 00:10:59.759 for that one because he felt he needed a body 164 00:10:59.799 --> 00:11:04.120 to proved murder, but also so that Brandon's body could 165 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:07.799 be examined to determine how he had died, whether he 166 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:11.919 had died accidentally, or whether he had been killed in 167 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:17.200 some other manner. So when Sergeant Kirk went back to 168 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:22.399 take Michelle to look for the body, she refused to 169 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:25.320 go with him and refused to show him the body. 170 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:31.159 And because of that, with nobody, the question was how 171 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:36.399 do you build what is essentially a circumstantial case, because 172 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:43.759 in Indiana, Michelle's statements would not be admissible unless we 173 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:48.159 could independently proved that Brandon had died. And that was 174 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:50.440 the real challenge is how to do that? 175 00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:57.399 How did you plan to do that? And what happens 176 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:01.320 with the Again with the contact, what point does she 177 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:04.720 stop contact with Sergeant Crook and speak to a lawyer? 178 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:09.159 Still in the hospital, when she so, she told something 179 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:13.960 to the admissions clerk she was actually admitted. Then she 180 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:16.919 met with Mike Krook while in the hospital. There was 181 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:22.039 also a nursing staff present during that interview, and Mike 182 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:24.360 Kirk had agreed to come back in a couple of 183 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:27.120 days so that he could take her and she would 184 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:31.639 show him the scene. In that interim period, apparently a 185 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:34.519 nurse and we don't know this for certain, but apparently 186 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:37.919 someone in the hospital referred her to a criminal defense 187 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:42.879 attorney and at that point he advised the detective to 188 00:12:42.919 --> 00:12:45.799 have no further contact with Michelle Jones and that was 189 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:49.879 his last contact at that point in time. 190 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:57.720 Now, right away, Sergeant Krook, he does an investigation and 191 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:02.919 he finds out background information about out Michelle Engrin Jones, who, 192 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:06.759 like you say, twenty years old. Tell us what he finds, 193 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:10.559 and that on that trail, he quickly is trying to 194 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:13.679 look for the biological father and any other relatives and 195 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:16.320 any other family who does he find, who does he 196 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.000 speak to? First? Tell us about that progress? 197 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:25.279 Sure, well, because Michelle Jones was in a mental facility, 198 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:28.679 the first question was did she really have a son 199 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:33.159 named Brandon Simms? Was he missing or was he dead? 200 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:36.159 And so the first thing to do was to check. 201 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:40.200 The Sergeant Crook checked for birth records and found out 202 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:43.919 that Michelle Jones had indeed had a son named Brandon 203 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:46.840 Lamar Simms on the date that she had told him 204 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:51.360 she had him, and she had identified the father of 205 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:56.120 Brandon Simms accurately as Kevin Simms. And it was fairly 206 00:13:56.279 --> 00:14:00.759 easy for a detective Crook to meet with Kevin Simms 207 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:06.720 because he'd been looking really furiously for his son and 208 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:12.440 the grandmother of Michelle Jones. So it was able to 209 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:16.240 confirm some of the information that Michelle Jones had given 210 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:20.639 him that she did have a son, what his age was, 211 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:25.480 and he then met with Kevin Simms to learn when 212 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:31.039 the last contact had been. He met with Arlene Blevins, 213 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.799 who was the grandmother, and then he started speaking with 214 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:41.559 Michelle Jones family. What he found out was that Michelle 215 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:47.360 had become pregnant at fourteen or early fifteen years old. 216 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:52.440 She'd given birth when she was fifteen. Her mother may 217 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:57.679 Ingram had some serious issues with Michelle and with her pregnancy. 218 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:04.200 There was some alleged abuse and Michelle had ultimately been 219 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:10.120 put in a group home. So Michelle spent several years 220 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:15.720 in the foster care system. So those were the people. 221 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:21.639 In fact, he went further and met with Michelle's aunts cousins. 222 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:25.440 He did everything he could to see whether, for example, 223 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:30.919 Michelle had placed custody or given Brandon to a family 224 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.279 member to keep for her, because he hadn't been seen 225 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.360 in years, and he was able to determine from all 226 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:40.080 of those people that no one had seen Brandon for 227 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:42.679 more than two years. 228 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:49.840 Now. When he's talking to the very important grandmother, Arlene Blevins, 229 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:55.200 he finds out the information about the maintenance of Brandon, 230 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:57.519 who has taken care of him in the family. As 231 00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:01.919 you mentioned, tell us about Arlene Blevins in her role 232 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:05.120 in Brandon's life. 233 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:11.000 Sure, when Brandon was born, his mother, as I said, 234 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:13.840 was a teenager and she was living in a group home, 235 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:17.519 and the option was to either put Brandon in foster 236 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:22.320 care or to allow him to stay with a family member. 237 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:28.200 Kevin Simms, the father, was still involved with Michelle, but 238 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.120 more importantly, he really wanted to be a good father 239 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:36.720 this child, so he and his mother, Arlene, took Brandon 240 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:41.240 into their home. Kevin was still living at home with 241 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:44.480 his mother, Arlene. Arlene had worked at the same job 242 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.759 for more than twenty years. She was very stable, she 243 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:51.639 was loving, and she adored having this little boy, and 244 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:55.720 in fact, she kept him for nearly three years while 245 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.759 he was in her care. She took him to visit 246 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:03.639 his mother to try and create a bond there, she 247 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:07.200 took him to doctor's appointments to the extent that Kevin could. 248 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:12.279 He was involved and Arlene just loved this little guy, 249 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:17.240 but she never had legal custody in the sense that 250 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:21.160 Michelle was the biological mother and Michelle had never turned 251 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:26.279 over her rights. So at a point in time when 252 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:33.359 Michelle became an adult, she insisted that Arlene gives Brandon 253 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:40.119 back to her, and Arlene offered any kind of support, financial, babysitting, 254 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.279 caring for anything that Michelle needed. 255 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:52.240 You talk about too, that there was a period of 256 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:55.279 time when the father is incarcerated. Just tell us about 257 00:17:55.279 --> 00:18:01.359 when he's incarcerated and for what, and the care continued 258 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:04.200 from his mother while he was incarcerated. 259 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:11.160 Yes, Brandon got into some trouble for a burglary that 260 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:16.960 he committed. He was I guess he pled guilty, and 261 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:20.279 he went to prison for a little over a year 262 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:23.559 and a half or two years. And during all of 263 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:29.240 that time, Arlene Blevins took care of Brandon alone. But 264 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:34.720 it was a joy to her. You know, you could 265 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:40.440 see her eyes light up when she talked about this wonderful, 266 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:47.680 bright child who you know, got into everything because he 267 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:53.079 wanted to explore and he was just a he was 268 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:59.039 larger than his what would normally be for child his age, 269 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:01.440 and so he could climb on the counters and get 270 00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:03.720 into things, and she just said he was a joyful 271 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:06.920 little guy who loved dancing and listening to music. 272 00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:14.400 Right, and during this time when Kevin, the father was 273 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:20.119 in prison, was there contact between Michelle and the father 274 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:25.559 and did he try to contact Was there that contact 275 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:28.119 that father interest from Kevin? 276 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:34.079 Yes, although the jury wasn't allowed to hear much of this. 277 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:40.279 Brandon had repeatedly written to Michelle Jones asking for pictures 278 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:46.240 of his son, and this is after Michelle had taken 279 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:50.839 the baby from Arlene. She had precluded Arlene from having 280 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:58.160 any contact with him, and so Brandon wrote regularly to Michelle. 281 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:03.119 She sent him only one one photograph ever of Brandon, 282 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:07.799 and it was a really disturbing photograph because the one 283 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:12.799 photograph she sent was a Brandon who was obviously screaming 284 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:18.240 and unhappy. But that was the only photograph. After that, 285 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:22.799 Michelle cut off all contact between Brandon and Kevin. 286 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:28.640 You talk about the Arlene's attempt as the grandmother, that 287 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:32.480 was that she didn't really get to see Brandon after 288 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:38.599 the time that she gave Brandon back up to Michelle, 289 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:43.839 but she made incredible attempts to try to offer babysitting 290 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:48.000 any kind of to be able to see Brandon, and 291 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:49.279 she was rebuffed, wasn't she? 292 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:55.319 Oh? Yeah, I mean what you know, sometimes single mothers 293 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:58.960 have problems because they don't have babysitters or it gets 294 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:01.920 too much for them. Arlene tried in every way she 295 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:06.200 could to let Michelle know that she wanted to continue 296 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:14.799 to assist Michelle, and in fact, Arlene was so desperate 297 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.240 that a couple of times she drove by the mosque 298 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:25.599 that Michelle had joined when she married. I don't know 299 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:30.039 how many times she drove by in an effort to 300 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:32.880 try and see Brandon, but she did see him at 301 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:38.279 least twice, and Brandon ran into her arms into her car, 302 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:44.359 and Michelle claimed that she would let Arlene see him 303 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:46.599 at some other point, but really never did. 304 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:53.400 Now, part of this investigation from the dedicated Sergeant Crook 305 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:57.440 and yourself trying to prosecute this trying to get enough 306 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:00.920 evidence to be able to get around Indiana law and 307 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:04.000 be able to prosecute this person for something that you 308 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.279 knew was likely a murder, you knew in your heart 309 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:11.519 and definitely Sergeant Crooked did how else does he proceed? 310 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:14.880 And you mentioned about the mosque, So tell us a 311 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:19.400 little bit about what he finds out about her religiosity 312 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:24.400 and some of the people that were surrounding that religious 313 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:31.079 interest that she had. That Sergeant Crook was able to find, well, I. 314 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:38.319 Don't know that she had religiosity other than joining various groups, 315 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.079 But what I can say is that shortly after she 316 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:46.960 became an adult, and while she was still in foster care, 317 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:53.279 she had met Damon Jones. Damon Jones was a musician 318 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:56.599 and a dance that she went to, and she became 319 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:02.519 involved with Damon who was was very involved with the 320 00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:08.079 Nation of Islam and was Muslim. And she married Jones 321 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:13.400 and became part of the church, and so as a 322 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:18.079 result of that, she was involved in those activities. When 323 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:25.759 Sergeant Kirk was investigating, he knew that some of the 324 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:33.920 members of the mosque had been involved with Michelle. In fact, 325 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:36.079 the woman she had been living with at the time 326 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:39.480 she checked herself into Wichard was one of the members 327 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:45.119 of the mosque, But he hesitated to really contact them 328 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:48.839 at that point because he didn't know what the reaction 329 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:52.279 would be, So he learned as much as he could 330 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:55.519 about Michelle. She was still working at Eli Lilly. She 331 00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:00.799 had an excellent job with an excellent employer as a 332 00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:04.119 pharmaceutical company, but in Indianapolis it's known as one of 333 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:07.839 the best employers. They provide free daycare for children, they 334 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:12.960 provide all sorts of benefits, obviously medical and healthcare. So 335 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:17.839 one of the things that we wanted to find out 336 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:22.720 and a way to locate him was Sergeant Krook checked 337 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:25.119 all of the schools in the area because by the 338 00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:28.920 time the investigation occurred, Brandon should have been in first 339 00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:32.200 or second grade, So he checked with all the schools 340 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:36.720 to see if Brandon had been registered, both in and 341 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:40.519 near the county. We got the Eli Lilly records that 342 00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:45.119 showed that Brandon had been on Michelle's healthcare for a 343 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:50.279 certain period of time and then taken off. That's pretty unusual. 344 00:24:50.839 --> 00:24:53.880 So those were the things that we began to build 345 00:24:53.920 --> 00:25:04.160 the evidence. Finally, Mike Krook, apparently, and we had talked 346 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:09.279 about this in some ways, Mike Krook filed a missing 347 00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:14.359 person's report and the juven on Brandon, which I guess 348 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:19.920 his father and grandmother just hadn't thought of doing, and 349 00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:23.279 that got the case into a juvenile court situation. 350 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:29.960 Right now, you explained too, that you need a lot 351 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.400 of evidence to be able to proceed with this. But 352 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:35.680 you do have enough evidence for what you call a 353 00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:40.599 be felony, a class BE felony, and that is regarding neglect. 354 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:46.240 So tell our audience about this concept of neglect and 355 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:50.559 how serious a sentence that might be in the goal 356 00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:53.279 of ultimate goal of trying to prosecute for murder. 357 00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:04.039 Absolutely, of a dependent is a crime in almost every state, 358 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:06.480 and I believe every state, but they call it a 359 00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:10.920 little differently. Neglect of a dependent can be anything from 360 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:14.920 a very minor felony to a more major felony, and 361 00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:19.000 that's based on the type of neglected is. And what 362 00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:22.880 I think that most people, at least in the South 363 00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:27.200 are custom to is leaving a child in a hot car. 364 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.359 That is neglecting your child in a situation that may 365 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:36.119 cause serious health problems. In Indiana, neglect of a dependent 366 00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:39.920 varies based on whether or not the child has actually 367 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:43.240 been injured, and if the child is injured or killed 368 00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:46.720 as a result of Class B felony carrying a potential 369 00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:54.799 twenty year sentence. And what happened was Michelle in juvenile 370 00:26:54.839 --> 00:27:01.640 court admitted that Brandon was dead and described vibed and 371 00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:04.960 had already described to others how he died, which was 372 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:08.160 she left him alone. And at that point we felt 373 00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:10.640 that the case was strong enough to charge her with 374 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:15.319 a neglect of independent resulting in serious bodily injury or death. 375 00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:18.039 And that's what we did, is charged her with the 376 00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:18.920 B felony. 377 00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:25.680 Now there's a crucial at least it sounds like in 378 00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:29.200 this book, that's a very crucial development that you say 379 00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:32.720 if she had pled guilty, that she couldn't be charged 380 00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:37.519 for murder later. So tell us what the movie was 381 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:40.440 and why do you think Why do you think someone 382 00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:43.839 made a misstep there? Why someone didn't see the ramifications 383 00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:45.960 of that, Why would they do that and risk what 384 00:27:46.039 --> 00:27:46.599 they did. 385 00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:53.359 Well as a B felony? And because Michelle Jones had 386 00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:57.279 some sympathetic you know history, being in foster care, being 387 00:27:57.319 --> 00:28:01.920 as young as she was, being a single mother, it 388 00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:06.039 was my concern once we charged the B felony that 389 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:09.960 she would come in and she would plead guilty to that. 390 00:28:10.680 --> 00:28:14.839 If she had, there was no minimum mandatory, so she 391 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:18.160 could have received probation, she could have received a very 392 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:21.440 short sentence. I think it's a matter of arrogance. I 393 00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:24.160 think that Michelle Jones thought that she was going to 394 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:32.559 get away with killing her son. In fact, she chose 395 00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:35.920 not to take any action other than to fight the charges, 396 00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:38.960 which she had every right to do and demand a 397 00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:44.319 jury trial. But that if she had pled to the 398 00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:49.920 bee felony, because of double jeopardy of the United States Constitution, 399 00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:53.720 we never could have tried her for murder. She would 400 00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:57.480 have avoided that charge. And the reason is because, as 401 00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:00.319