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Speaker 1: Good morning, Maggie. How are you doing.

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Speaker 2: I'm well, how are you well?

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Speaker 3: I'm very excited to share yet another conversation with you

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because I knew during season one. I knew that there's

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no way that you're going to get away with just

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doing one season on this because there is so much

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going on. And I got to tell you, the community,

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the society needs what you are doing, because you are

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digging up bones in places that people have buried them.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: I mean, because whatever courage you've got to do this,

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my god, share it.

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Speaker 2: It does get scary.

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Speaker 4: I mean, especially when you're going up against the police force.

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At times, it certainly is scary. But yeah, I mean

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I always say that the courage I get is from

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these people that are in prison. I mean, to survive

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that I could survive anything.

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Speaker 1: I'd say, Well, let me tell you something.

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Speaker 3: When you talk about prison and stuff, I mean, I mean,

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sure we see all the TV shows and the movies

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and things. I guarantee if I were doing what you're

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doing and I was walking into a prison, I would

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be peeing my pants. I'm not gonna lie to you,

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because that even the four walls of that building scare

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the Bajebi's out of me.

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Speaker 2: You know what it is.

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Speaker 4: It's terrifying, But in some way, I know how many

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good people are in there. And it don't even mean

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innocent people. I mean people locked up for a petty

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drug crime. How many times could I have been locked

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up for that? So you know there's a lot of

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good people behind those walls. And actually often I go

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in and there's a lot of community.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: I learned from Suave, who I did the podcast on.

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He created a group of men that all got their

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education and started a mural arts program. And you know,

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there is so much community and beautiful people in there

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that I think, because I know that, it's a little

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less scary to me.

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Speaker 3: When you go into Graves County. I mean the town

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you went into a city of ten thousand right away.

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I am shot back to Lewistown, Montana, me in nineteen

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eighty one, and I remember being in that town and

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you know, I was just a jock on the radio,

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but every night somebody had to throw spit wads at

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the building. I really thought, Oh, I'm in trouble now.

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This town of tent and wants me out of here.

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How do you deal with with the small town mentality.

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Speaker 4: So this one was a little more less scary than

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when I was an alliance Ohio.

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Speaker 2: I was doing a story there and.

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Speaker 4: We were live reporting from there, so people knew we

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were there, so that was quite scary. We were followed sometimes,

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like we had to be really careful, and you know

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what I mean, I don't know, yeah, and I don't know,

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you know, if people know what I look like, I'm

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not particularly you know, inconspicuous, so.

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Speaker 2: It's quite easy to spot me.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, the small town mentality, I mean, everyone knows

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who you are when you're an outsider. They know you're

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an outsider. So it's it's tough, you know. I do

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my best to blend in and just not stand out.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that really kind of puts shivers

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inside my soul is is when Jessica's body was found,

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because it's one of those you know, you always see

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it in scary movies, but when it's in reality or

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you hear about it on a podcast, it's like, no,

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we're talking reality here. Is like reading front page of

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a newspaper.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, it's you know hers was.

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Speaker 4: Her death was particularly horrific because she was left outside

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in the public for days. People who walked by the

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middle school. She was outside in the backyard of the

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middle school. Once they found out that it was a

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deceased young woman, they said, oh my gosh, I thought

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that was just trash bags for a few days. So

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it was particularly horrific for this town.

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Speaker 3: See, and you saying that still puts the shivers through

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me because I walk through this forest every single day,

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and the scent of death is always found out here

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because of deer that have fallen or birds.

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Speaker 1: And stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: Man, I don't know what I'm going to do if

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I ever come across a body that belongs to someone

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like Jessica, because I mean it's like, you know, keep

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your calm, keep your peace, because one day, I can

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almost tell you, in this state of this nation, it's

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gonna happen. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think of that all the time. I mean,

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I'm from New York City and just walking through Tompkins.

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Back in the day, you used to see people you

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were unsure if they were alive or dead. But I

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think about that all the time, Like what would I do?

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Would I have thought those were trash bags? Would I

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have walked over what would I have done if I

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saw her. I mean certainly something that yeah, I think

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about and you think about.

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Speaker 3: So what is more common inside your inquisitive mind, fear

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or suspicion?

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Speaker 2: Suspicion?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, I'm suspicious of everybody, and uh, you know,

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especially investigators because unfortunately, in my line of work, I'm

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here because the investigation was either very poorly done or

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in some way nefarious. So I mean, in my w

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of work, I'm very suspicious of law enforcement.

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Speaker 3: Well, how often do you have to pull from personal

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experience in order to kind of put more focus on

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what is going on presently?

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Speaker 2: I would say very often.

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Speaker 4: But one of the things with my personal experience that

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I think makes me able to do this work is

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because I can relate to so many of these people

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in prison, not only because they're innocent, and you know,

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any misstep I took at sixteen, and it could have

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led me there. I was not an angel, but you know,

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because I in a way, you know, I was told

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this by Hank Skinner. He recently passed away on death row.

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He was an instant man on death row for over

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thirty five years. Died of a brain tumor, but he

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said to me. We wrote letters back and forth, and

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at the time in Texas, we couldn't talk on the

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follow and he couldn't see pictures of me, so we

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just wrote letters.

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Speaker 2: And he was really nasty in his letters. He had

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spent thirty five years on death row.

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Speaker 4: He had all kinds of journalists come in and out,

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and so he wasn't he was kind of done with

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inquisitive journalists. And when I finally met him in prison,

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he said, you know, Maggie, if I knew this is

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what you looked like and who you were, I would

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have been a lot more open to you. And what

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I took that as was he saw me. You know,

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I have a lot of tattoos, and I just look

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like a person you'd see on the street.

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Speaker 2: People often don't know that I'm a fulletzer many journalist.

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Speaker 4: So and he felt that that I was just a person,

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and I wasn't showing up with you know, a white

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collared shirt and cameras and kitten heels and some kind

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of tied up agenda. I wanted to listen to him.

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I understood him, and I think that's been really important

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for me, getting into prison and talking to these people

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and having them open up to me.

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Speaker 1: See.

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Speaker 3: I call that the fourth dimension. You open up the

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eye to a different dimension where you can go into

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a story and not have to be you know, because

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people assume what we're supposed to look like and how

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we're supposed to act, and oh my god, this TV

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show said this, We're supposed to be this way. But

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when you are genuinely dedicated and loyal to what you're

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doing on Bone Valley three and all the other years,

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the thing is is that you're going in there to

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get not only a story. Can we find a cure

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here as well or a solution?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 4: And you know the sad thing is is that when

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we start looking, you know, we've looked at this case,

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and this specific prosecutor has been in office since nineteen

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eighty two. We just found five, what I believe our

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wrongful convictions under her belt. You know how many others

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are there? So when I start digging, what I find

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is it gets really overwhelming because you're like, this might

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not be the only one that happened in the eighty

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two years, or sorry, not eighty two years, since you

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were in office since nineteen eighty two.

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Speaker 3: Please do not move. There's more with Maggie Coming up

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next the name of the podcast Bone Valley Season three,

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we are back with Maggie, Quincy omar Cross. That name

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people are they're not going to forget it, but they've

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got to hear the story, and I guarantee somewhere in

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their life they're going to say, oh, oh, that's happened

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near me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Quincy was just a kid. Again.

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Speaker 4: You know, we're dealing with small town people that often

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get into drug dealing. You know, he was just a

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petty dry dealer, came into this town and that put

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him on the radar because he was arrested that night

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for drugs. And you know, when these citizens start looking,

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they see this out of towner arrested for drugs, and

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they just hone in on him immediately.

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Speaker 1: See.

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Speaker 3: And the thing about it is so is that what

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I saw with Quincy was the fact that, you know,

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I didn't grew up a cool kid. I was.

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Speaker 1: I was in the South side of Billings.

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Speaker 3: We were a group. How we didn't end up in jail?

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I have no idea. So when I see that the

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group of young people, you know, they falsely accused of murder,

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I'm going that could have happened to me. And that's that,

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to me, is the relatable part of this whole entire thing.

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We didn't come from the straight kid family. We all

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broke the dang rules mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I relate to these people because I

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was the same.

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Speaker 4: I could have been any one of them, just in

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the wrong place at the wrong time. And you know,

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I love that you mentioned that, like, yes, they were kids,

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Like when the murder actually happened, they were all in

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their early twenties, which I consider a kid. I mean,

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one of the main witnesses was fifteen, a literal child.

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So they were just kids doing kids shit and.

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Speaker 2: Got wrapped up. Yeah. But Maggie, you question, No, I

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didn't mean to curse.

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Speaker 3: No, no, why not, man, I mean, come on, I mean,

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it's not even cursing anymore. It's how we speak.

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Speaker 4: Man.

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Speaker 3: If you were to meet me out on the field

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to Montana right now, you would see a completely different arrow,

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because I mean, isn't that's just what we do with

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the prairie dogs because they screw up my damn field.

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And the thing but the thing about it is they

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had five different alibis going on here. You would think

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as close as they were, they would really have their

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shit together.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm. No, it was crazy.

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Speaker 4: It was really crazy because the first investigation in two

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thousand when she was murdered, arrested two different people.

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Speaker 2: Then those charges were dropped for no other.

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Speaker 4: Reason than the police did not hand over discovery. They

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lost near twenty video and audio tapes, and so the

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case had to be dropped. So those first two people

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were actually decent suspect, they knew her, they were her boyfriends,

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one of them she had a baby with, but that

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was dropped. So then you get to investigation number two

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the Kentucky State Police five years later, and that's when

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we get this citizen sleuth, and Quincy's name comes up.

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So the timeline of just whose names, who's involved? Nine

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people were implicated in this.

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Speaker 2: In some way.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how you get your sound bites and

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keep your library together. I just know what my notes

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look like and what I have to do. But I

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mean you you must have like just ample amounts of

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just writing, because you've got to be able to go

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and find these sound bites immediately, because whoever's producing and

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directing your shows, they've got to have that stuff to

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make this thing work and they're doing it right.

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Speaker 1: Well it's me, Well congrats me.

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Speaker 4: It's me and my co producer were back abada and

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we do it all together.

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Speaker 2: I mean yeah, you know, we go through.

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Speaker 4: Every piece of tape, every audio interview, we listened to,

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got hundreds of hours of this court trial, and yeah,

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we just have note documents. I just like, hey, this

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is a great clip at this time stamp. You know,

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this is where we got to use this. It's chaos,

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but it works somehow.

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Speaker 3: So now what happens here and this once again, this

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sounds so every day the fire chief's daughter is gone

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eighteen years old. Okay, this is happening in America and

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around the world every day. But the thing about it is, though,

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is that what's the motive? And this is what I

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love about you, Maggie, is you're asking that question, what's

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the motive? What led to this situation? There had to

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be a pre story in order to get to this story,

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and what is going to be the post story?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really really rare to just find someone who

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will just find a girl walking alone on the street

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and just brutally murder, you know, light on fire. This

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crime just seemed so personal and Quincy did not know her.

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He was from Kennessee. He was not from Kentucky. You know,

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they were forty minutes away. He didn't go to that town.

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So the first two people arrested were her boyfriend and

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baby daddy.

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Speaker 2: That makes a lot more sense to me.

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Speaker 4: And why that was something that wasn't picked up on

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in the third investigation by the Kentucky State.

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Speaker 2: Police is beyond me.

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Speaker 4: I mean that investigation is the one that started making

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up these insane stories about you know, orgies and all

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of this stuff that really is bizarre because her autopsy

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does not show any kind of sexual assault in any

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sort of way.

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Speaker 3: See how you were, This is what you do. This

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is what you do. That's why I would love for you, Maggie,

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to come to Charlotte and go deeper into this story

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of the Ukrainian girl that was killed on our transit system.

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I don't yeah, I swort of got it looked more

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like a hit. I want to know the story. I

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want to know what really happened before that moment and

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how did it play out the way that it did.

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And I need someone like you, Maggie, to come in

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here and get this thing down.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, that was devastating. I watched that because I'm

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curious too. I watched it multiple times saying how did

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this happen? How did this happen? Like this horrifying?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, how do you keep it together? Because I couldn't

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sleep at night? I mean I have to do a

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defrag journal every day just to keep my thoughts in process.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I need to be doing that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I sleep is very difficult because I just want

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to be working. Like I honestly, I'm kept up because

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I'm like, I've so much to do. There's so many

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people I need to help. But yeah, I mean I

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lots of sleep medication to just turn off my brain,

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just let those like eight hours in.

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Speaker 3: Do you become an activator and try to get the

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word out more about Kentucky's Innocence Project because I think

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a lot more states need to look into something like this,

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because I mean, like you said, there are a lot

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of great people behind those bars and we're not getting

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to see them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, more states need to More Attorney general's offices need

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to create these things. You know, it's not a national program.

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Every state, every county, every city needs to be doing it.

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So it's really wild that there are places that just

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don't have innocence projects or rungful conviction review units or

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anything like that. And it's interesting when we go to

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the Innocence Conference every year, they do this beautiful ceremony

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where they announce all the people who are there, who

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how much time they did, where they're from. They can

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walk on stage, everyone's cheering. It's wonderful. You know, this

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year they all walked on stage to Kendrick Lamar.

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Speaker 2: It was great.

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Speaker 4: But you could see the states that these people are from,

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and based on that, you can tell which states are

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doing their job in reversing these convictions. And the last

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few years there's been a lot of people from Michigan.

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I know that Detroit has a huge conviction review unit.

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So that's one of the interesting things I can tell

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which states are doing their job.

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Speaker 3: I think it's because up there in those states, there's

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a little bit more of a brother and sisterhood up there,

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and it's about family, family, family, family. You're talking about

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my family. We need to do something about this because

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your family is my family, it's their family, and we

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need to do we need to do something about our family.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: That's such a good point.

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Speaker 4: Darrell at Ewing was in prison for a long time

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in Detroit, Michigan. The actual killer confessed before he even

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went to trial, wrote a letter.

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Speaker 2: Saying, I did this. You're putting the wrong man in trial.

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Yet Darrell goes to prison for decades.

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Speaker 4: But his family, I mean, they were out on the

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courthouse steps every single day, and he had an extended family,

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so that was a lot of people out there. And

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then you know, all the other guys who were wrongfully

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convicted into Detroit, their family showed up, so they had

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a lot of power. And that's a really good point.

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You know, the family's rallying, and the people that I

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meet that don't have that, it's it's home breaking.

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Speaker 1: Yep, cold lonely.

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Speaker 3: What am I going to do? I have nobody here

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to support me. Oh, I might as well just die,

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I mean and that or figure out. You know, if

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God is here, then God make yourself present. Let's make

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this happen, dude.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yep.

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Speaker 1: I mean.

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Speaker 4: The only the people we hear the Quincy Crosses that

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we hear about it's because they've had advocates on the outside.

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And luckily for Quincy, Jessica's father. Joe Curran was one

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of those people. I mean he he's joined with Quincy's father,

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the victim's father and the person in prison's father have

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teamed up to say this is wrong, we need to

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fix this.

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Speaker 2: So his case is unique in that way.

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Speaker 3: Well, I would love to sit in a session with

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you in the way that I don't know how you're

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getting access, because I'm sure that when you go knocking

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on someone's stir they're going, who.

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Speaker 1: Are you again? And where are you at?

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Speaker 3: What time is it going to be on in the morning?

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Will I be able to hear it in my town?

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And who's it going to reach? What's your targeted audience?

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Let me see your numbers. I don't know how you

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do what you do and keep focused.

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Speaker 4: Well, I got to say knocking on doors is quite terrifying.

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I am not particularly great at it, but I learned

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from a seasoned and US negative journalist. Then when you

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knock on the door, don't stand in front of the

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door because someone doesn't want you there might just shoot

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out that door.

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Speaker 2: So like you got to do like a little side knock.

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But yeah, you know you're you're in You're in Tennessee.

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Knocking on doors. Down there in Kentucky, is is kind

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of scary.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm down here in the South. I can relate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you have to watch out for the old

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washing machine that's up there on the porch because you

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might trip over if you're running. You got to come

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back to this show anytime in the future, Maggie.

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you what.

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Speaker 3: I love talking with you. I was fired up when

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I heard that you had a season three and I

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just can't wait until we dig even more.

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Speaker 2: I super appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today?

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Speaker 2: Okay, thank you